v2 of Primer Packet
http://novaopen.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Open-Primer-Missions-v2.pdf

Good Afternoon,

The NOVA Open, Virginia's only current / first Vegas qualifying Circuit Tournament for Warhammer and Warhammer 40k will be on August 14, 2010 of this year, with ancillary events on August 13 and 15.

Although more information and registration data is available at http://novaopen.com and will be more detailed as the event date becomes closer, here's a few brief primers for the moment:

1) Make a vacation out of it! Games Day 2010 in Baltimore is nearby, and is the Saturday after the NOVA Open, allowing the intrepid summer adventurer to head for a week of fun and sun in our nation's capital, with a Vegas qualifying GT on one end, and Games Day on the other.

2) This will be a 4 round tournament with over $5,000 in prizes and growing, with EQUAL awards and recognition for all style of hobbyist and gamer (from the ultra competitive to the extremely artistic), all for the flat registration fee of $50. Additional events have been added at the collocated Holiday Inn on Friday and Sunday, August 13 and 15.

3) 2,000 Points Warhammer 40k; 2,250 Points Warhammer Fantasy

4) The opportunity to have an opinion-based role in the development of the tournament; comment and discuss tournament-related subjects ranging from sportsmanship and composition to scenarios and scoring at one of the tournament organizer's blogs at http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com (search through the blog for tournament related subjects, such as sportsmanship, composition, scenarios, etc.).

5) 96 slots for 40k, 32 slots for Fantasy in a 10,000+ square foot facility at the Dulles Expo Center in Northern Virginia, mere minutes from Washington, DC, and approximately 1 hour from Baltimore Games Day. There is a hotel on site, and hotel booking / details will be available on the website in the near future.

Again, far more information, FAQ's, rules packets, etc., will be forthcoming as the date gets closer.
An important note for 40k participants (and Fantasy, to a lesser extent) is that the event is filling up more rapidly and earlier than we anticipated. If you think there's a good chance you'll be attending, registering early is a very good idea. If we fill, our ability to expand to more slots may be there, but will almost certainly come at a higher registration price for later sign-ups.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me here or e-mail me at mvbrandt@gmail.com

Badump; filling at a rather surprising rate, over 20% with the tourney not until August.

Bump!

Information update ...
Combined best performance for Renaissance Man for each system will be a superior prize to the above, as will the competitive Tournament Champion for each event.

4 Major “Soft” Awards (Sportsmanship, Players’ Choice, Painting, Conversion by system)

4 Major “Competitive” Awards (Each 4-0 Finisher by system)

2 Top Awards (Renaissance Man – Combined scores; Tournament Champion – Competitive)

Sunday “Final Four” 2-Round Invitational for the 4-0 Finishers in each system

Top-in-Bracket Awards for 2-2, 3-1 brackets; Door Prizes and Random Draw Prizes throughout the day


Spots continue to sell at a faster-than-anticipated rate for so many months out.
Sponsorships are rising, resulting in a higher than advertised prize pool (and more "swag" for all).Bump!

Information update ...
Combined best performance for Renaissance Man for each system will be a superior prize to the above, as will the competitive Tournament Champion for each event.

4 Major “Soft” Awards (Sportsmanship, Players’ Choice, Painting, Conversion by system)

4 Major “Competitive” Awards (Each 4-0 Finisher by system)

2 Top Awards (Renaissance Man – Combined scores; Tournament Champion – Competitive)

Sunday “Final Four” 2-Round Invitational for the 4-0 Finishers in each system

Top-in-Bracket Awards for 2-2, 3-1 brackets; Door Prizes and Random Draw Prizes throughout the day


Spots continue to sell at a faster-than-anticipated rate for so many months out.
Sponsorships are rising, resulting in a higher than advertised prize pool (and more "swag" for all).

I was about to scratch out one of the other east coast events I was attending in favor of this - 3 hour drive is much better than a 3,000 mile flight, an 11 hour drive south, or a 7 hour drive north.....

And then thought I should slow down and ask a couple questions:

1. Why only 4 rounds? If you have room for 64 people, and are rewarding each category of hobbyist, a 4 round tournament should end up with 4 people that are undefeated and potentially tied in points; opposed to a 5 round tournament where the top tables are generally #1 and #2, and one of the two winners there is going to sweep the event. Anything to cut down the possibility of late-tournament shenanigans, or the possibility of multiple people all deserving to have won without enough rounds to separate them is good.

2. What's the breakdown of points for the event? Battlepoints vs Composition Points vs Sportsmanship points vs. Painting points? There have been shenanigans and public outcry over how some events have been handled (or mishandled) and its probably important to explain what points go where. The Broadside Bash GT ended up having something like 43% battlepoints, making it extremely untournament-like, which has made a fair few extremely well-known players out on the side of the country decide not to attend any more events hosted by those folks. Transparency in scoring is important. There are some good threads to read about here about comp scoring, sportsmanship scoring, whether either of those does anything useful....etc.

3. Do you have scenarios?


Call me cautious, but I seek knowledge before committing time and money to an event.

All good questions, and completely understandable!

Let me see if I can answer them to good effect ...

1. It's 4 rounds for the majority of the tournament field. There will be exactly 4 x 4-0 players by the end of Saturday, each of whom will be invited to a 2nd day smaller venue for a 2-round Tourney Champ "final four" resulting in a single 6-0 finisher. The 4-0 finishers will also all receive a Top Commander award. So, basically you get a prize, clear placement, and recognition if you go 4-0, and you get a 2-round shot at the single undefeated finisher as well.

2. Points are separate but equal. There are 4 soft prizes, not influenced by competitiveness (sportsmanship, painting, conversion, players' choice). There are 4 hard prizes, not influenced by soft (the 4-0 finishers). There's a single "Renaissance Man" award that is equal parts appearance, sports, battle, and a "Tournament Champion" award that is the 6-0 finisher.

3. We do have scenarios. Although this is still subject to change, you should anticipate a format like this:

3 "objectives" are in play at all times - Victory Points, 5 Objectives, 2 "deployment zone" objectives (so, the 3 book missions, with VP instead of KP). For each round, one will be the win condition, and the other two will be primary and secondary tiebreakers. For all rounds, if everything is tied, marginal VP difference will be the tiebreaker. Each round will vary one of the book deployment styles, and will shuffle the win condition objective, primary tiebreaker, and secondary tiebreaker. For the final round, the combination of deployment, win condition, primary and 2ndary tiebreakers will be determined for the entire field by RANDOM roll just before the round begins.

In example (PURELY example), Round 1 you win or lose by Victory Points, break the VP draw margin by Objectives (x5), break THAT draw margin by HQ objectives (x2), and if necessary revert to simple VP preponderance of all of those are drawn. You'll be in a Dawn of War deployment. In Round 2, you'll win or lose by Objectives (x5), break a draw on that objective with HQ objectives (x2), and break THAT tie by Victory Points. You'd be in Pitched Battle deployment. Etc. So to keep things more competitive, you don't have 18 different major and minor missions to have to learn over a simple 3 round event ... but at the same time, it varies itself up enough that each mission is different and requires a balanced army to win with.

Basically, you're going to see an event where the things you have to accomplish, for which you score points and wins, will be the same by round. BUT, to keep it balanced and varying, the primary and main tiebreaker will constantly be changing, as will deployment.

This system is still in pretty intensive playtesting among people who will NOT be permitted to participate in the tournament, as we want to make sure it's functional and evaluative.

I'm happy to answer any questions you have to the best of my ability. The point here is to have an event that very clearly identifies both the best players, and the best hobbyists, without shenanigans or corrupting amalgamations of the two. There are awards for softer players, harder players, and people who pursue both equally.

You're also likely to see "best in" for each of the non-4-0 brackets (so lesser top prizes for those who lose once, twice, etc.).

Hope that's a helpful starter on the Q-mark front.

- Mike Brandt, TO

Weren't you at Adepticon?

I was, finished 9th overall, 7th in heat ... enjoyed it. Don't think we ran into each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Information for folks to chew on ... nothing "formal" until on site, but you can count on this for the most part.


Scoring and Pairing

First Rounds are random paired

2nd and 3rd rounds are elimintation paired (meaning, that the highest scoring 1-0 faces the lowest scoring 1-0, for example)

Final round is swiss paired (in any true tournament, the ideal is for 1 to face 2 in round 4, 3 to face 4, etc.); this also enables armies built around winning vs. mauling people to be more competitive

In the 2nd day invitational final four, it's 1v4 and 2v3 leading into the ifnal

Seeding and scoring is based upon ((win % x Factor) + (netVP%) + (objective%) + (HQ%)) (basically, the % of each of the three missions you've scored)

After a long chat (after which Google Chat broke) with Michael, I'm in!!

Couple of notes to make for dakka-ites that have somewhat been elaborated on, but that people like me are too thick to read right:

1. Saturday's tournament is a 4 round GT. At the end, 4 people will be 4-0. Those 4 win a Top General Award, and are invited on to Sunday's tournament, which is a two round event from which only one will emerge 6-0.

2. Painting and Sportsmanship have their own categories and awards, but the tournament portion of the event is how well you fight, not how well you paint. *cheers*

Of uber awesomeness, the rules packet apparently includes a requirement that tournament players shower before the event and apply deodorant before the tournament. *cackles*

Dashofpepper wrote:but the tournament portion of the event is how well you fight, not how well you paint. *cheers*

Don't hate on us painters!!! Someone has got to go 0-4! And if I gotta go down... I'm gonna be looking gooooooood! ;D

What are the 'appearance' rules? WYSIWYG and 3colors and based? While it isn't a huge deal, I have attended 'ardboyz with 'armless greys' armies and I found myself simply not enjoying any aspect of the event.

I like the format, seems to make both us softies and the hardies happy. Since this is local for me I am going to go clear my calendar and see if I can go.

I am 99.9999999999999999% positive there will be a 3color+based minimum. WYSIWYG is required.

All of this should go up in the next week or two in intense detail - waiting on our Fantasy-side organizer to wrap up the details they've gotta cover.

I should make certain to note that this is not an 'Ard Boyz style event where the soft side of the hobby is de-emphasized, just doing our best to emphasize ALL components.

Glad to hear you're planning on attending ... I'm happy to help "out-region" folks in terms of things to do in DC, places to stay, etc., as well. We may also block off some discounted rooms at the local hotel owned by the Dulles Expo Center to boot.

What happens if 4 people don't go 4-0? Seems presumptuous to assume that there will be 4 entire people out of 64 that will win every single one of their games. Especially if you're doing majors, minors, etc.

Just a thought.

--Mrs. Dash

Squishy squig is her title....om nom nom nom nom. The best kind of ork lunch.

Dodiez wrote:What happens if 4 people don't go 4-0? Seems presumptuous to assume that there will be 4 entire people out of 64 that will win every single one of their games. Especially if you're doing majors, minors, etc.

Just a thought.

--Mrs. Dash

A good question! We don't have draws in our events. It's a win-loss, with tournament bracket #'s (64, not 60, or 63, or 65, etc.). So, you're going to see 64 filter down to a predictable # of 4-0's, 3-1's, 2-2's, 1-3's, 0-4's, which also impacts our prize / award system.

We have trophies and prizes for the top finishers by win/loss bracket as well, and a lot of other lesser prizes throughout the day for performances by round, yatta yatta. There actually will be 4 x 4-0.

It's an "easy" thing to make whether you won or lost a game fuzzy via major/minor, no "primary" win condition, etc. We try to take the tougher road for a better tournament for *all* (competitive, non-competitive, etc.).

sounds pretty cool, always good to have more NOVA events!

For those of you in the NOVA area, we try to maintain a listing of area events on the IFL forum. See my sig for the link.
And Mike, I'm in, I'll get signed up shortly.

I think I'll be able to make this one. And seeing as I live in VA, it would be a shame to miss it.

GG

Good to hear on all fronts.

I could well be wrong but weren't you bashing Adepticon last week?

G

@GBF - I've recently read Mike's blog and listened to his appearance on the Gamer's Lounge Podcast and I have no issues with what he has said about AdeptiCon. I think Mike gets sort of lumped in with the Stelek crowd from time to time, but I think if you take the time to listen to what he has to say, you will find him to be reasonable and really level-headed.

His issues with AdeptiCon are all things we have acknowledged either post-con or for the past year. I do not necessarily agree with his analysis of the missions, or that draws do not have a place in the tournament setting, but I would hardly call it bashing. This was Mike's first year at the convention, I can understand someone having issues with them.

I like what I have heard about the NOVA Open so far. I think Mike has taken a good look at what has and hasn't worked for other events over the years, listened to what some select sections of the community want, and is attempting to address what he sees a hole in the competitive community without alienating others. Exactly what someone needs to do for the competitive crowd. Bravo to him.

Matthias what do I owe you, b/c ... <3

If I were your significant other, I would tell you I feel incredibly understood.

Just a thought, wouldn't be more exciting to run the second day event with the four winners as round robin? Certainly there should be enough time. Like I said just a thought.

G

Now that I've really read up on this event it really looks to be the kind of thing for which I've been clamoring. I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and make every effort to attend this, and hopefully drag some of the Battle for Salvation club with me.

This might be buried on the site somewhere but how long are the rounds? Hopefully 2.5 hours, though I know BoLScon tried for 2 due to the 7 game format.

Danny Internets wrote:Now that I've really read up on this event it really looks to be the kind of thing for which I've been clamoring. I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and make every effort to attend this, and hopefully drag some of the Battle for Salvation club with me.

This might be buried on the site somewhere but how long are the rounds? Hopefully 2.5 hours, though I know BoLScon tried for 2 due to the 7 game format.

He said somewhere between 2:15 and 2:30 in our chat earlier.

Except for the no ties there isn't much of a difference between this tournament and a lot of others on the circuit Danny. They are still giving a Best Overall, Best General, Best Painted/Army, Best Sport. So how does the breakdown differ from the awards given out for other tournaments?

Props for running it so that you can determine the overall winner of 64 people. I would suggest depending on the cost that the tournament should just go 2 days. The only issue I forsee is people not knowing if they need a room for the night or not based on whether they will be playing the next day which you can eliminate by just giving everyone 7 games like BoLScon. I personally feel like I wouldn't want to travel a major distance to this event because I could be paying $50 (GT prices) for a 4 game tournament. Is it just so that you only have to get the convention center for 1 day? If so then this makes sense as I understand needing to stay in the black.

This is just personal opinion and you know what they say about opinions Just thought I'd mention it though.

The no ties thing is pretty gigantic. Not to mention the entirely different format with a second day invitational and separate scoring for different aspects of the hobby. And the tournament winner is actually awarded to the person who won the tournament rather than the hobby event. Read the description of the event if you want to learn more.

Danny, glad to hear you and your club may be coming to join us. I've been fielding a lot of "maybes" from a number of regular net celebs, ranging from YTTH to BOLS "regulars." Should be interesting!

I would avoid highlighting us as "too" different. The only thing I'll say is I don't know why tournaments will run, say, 120 slots instead of 128, and so on and so forth. It's difficult to really evaluate much competitively when you have ties, and uneven numbers (resulting in differing performances inevitably facing each other), and it extends a tournament by numerous rounds in theory if you want to reach a "best" performer. You get further from the beaten path when you have marginal and major victories, and scaling victory "score" putting people away from others in competition, b/c it subjects the field too much to "my army tables people" or "I drew easier first couple of opponents" ... begging numerous subsequent questions. We're doing our best to, instead of awarding Duke the title based upon them scoring more points on their way to the final game, award it to the player/team that wins the actual 61-59 heart-stopper at the last moment of the final game. We'll see how it works!

Regarding the input - I appreciate all of it. This is not "Mike's 40k Tourney," so much as it's "Mike's best attempt at addressing a wide range of needs and inputs in pursuit of a well-rounded 40k (and Fantasy) tourney."

Regarding the Round Robin on the 2nd day - not a terrible idea. We will need to - to a degree - be flexible with too many games on Day 2; people who finish in the top 4 but traveled may be on more strict schedules.

Regarding the unpredictability of "do I go for 2 days, or 1?" With 4 rounds, we're actually competitively priced with a lot of other GT's on the circuit, some of which only offer 3 rounds. That said, in the FUTURE (next year, the year after, etc.) we will be extending to two days and providing 6-7 rounds for everyone, regardless of performance. This year, because it is our first "Step" toward eventual convention, we just can't quite stay in the black and host a 2nd day at the expo center. Or, if we did, the prize support (which is in excess of $4,000 at the moment, enabling us to provide swag and booty to just about everyone) would plummet to an almost irrelevant number!

Please continue to offer input ... unique or not on the internets, I care far more about improving event presentation than pushing personal agenda.

- Mike

Hulksmash wrote:Except for the no ties there isn't much of a difference between this tournament and a lot of others on the circuit Danny. They are still giving a Best Overall, Best General, Best Painted/Army, Best Sport. So how does the breakdown differ from the awards given out for other tournaments?

Small note to make here, but it makes a difference.

At the end of the first day there are multiple "Best General" awards, and are given to the four folks who went 4-0. Thus ends the GT tournament. The prize of "Best Overall" goes to the winner of the swiss invitational (sorry if that's the wrong classification) the next day. IE, its the player who went 6-0. Their painting, sportsmanship, comp are irrelevant to them winning best overall. Those categories are judged and given prizes separately from the TOURNAMENT piece of it, as it should be.

That's the difference between the Nova Open and every other event. They aren't lumping scoring for the hobby portions and behavioral portions into the tournament piece, they're treating each of those categories with equal respect instead.

I think round robin on the second day would produce a more clearcut winner overall. I don't see why playing one more game is that big of a deal either in regards to time. Adepticon has three games on Sunday and there were plenty of people who played... Didn't seem to affected anyone's travel schedule.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:I think round robin on the second day would produce a more clearcut winner overall. I don't see why playing one more game is that big of a deal either in regards to time. Adepticon has three games on Sunday and there were plenty of people who played... Didn't seem to affected anyone's travel schedule.

G

Ugh.

Getting home two and half hours later on a Sunday when people have to work the next day could be a deciding factor.

"I don't see why playing one more game is that big of a deal" comes off as rude to me, honestly. You have already tried to sow dissension earlier in the thread. Mr. "weren't you bashing Adepticon".

Just because one tourney does something does not mean this one will do that. Obviously, he wants to be a little different from the rest. That's the point here.

Well, that becomes another point of discussion, on my blog and elsewhere. Suppose you have 4 players and you do a Round Robin instead of a traditional tournament approach.

Player 1 beats 2 and 3, but loses to 4
Player 2 beats 3 and 4, but loses to 1
Player 3 loses to everyone
Player 4 beats 1 and 3, but loses to 2

Now Players 1, 3 and 4 are all 2-1. Who is the clearcut winner overall?

Now you're back at the place where most other tournaments are at, of using ARBITRARY methods like "battle points" to determine a winner, which was the problem in the first place.

See the challenges presented? In a perfect world, the Round Robin would yield one 3-0 guy and a bunch of 2-1, 1-2, 0-3, whatevers. In reality, you're as likely to completely muddy the waters with a trio of 2-1's as not, causing more trouble and as mentioned delaying peoples' home arrival even further.


PS - Dodiez, thanks, but there's no need to defend. I would presume Black Blow Fly wasn't trying to sow dissension ... we both run GT's on the circuit, I believe, and it would be the poorest of form to try and actively go after another one. As mentioned earlier, I was generally quite positive about Adepticon, with the caveat that I thought the scenarios and # of rounds could be improved for the 1850 championships. Unless I'm mistaken and he has some beef, BBF is just offering his $.02 as I did for Adepticon, and I'll ignore the lack of tone that the internet conveys. I'm sure he means it all in the cheeriest and most positive of ways.

PPS - For people not sure about the travel and all for a day, take note that North American Games Day is one week later, on Saturday August 21. It's about one hour from the Tourney Venue. If you're trying to figure out a good vacation spot for your Summer, DC in August can be a ton of fun, with a great night life and a ton of activities going on at the National Mall and other places, right next to all the monuments. DC Natives putting on the event such as myself are happy to provide guidance and suggestion, or even join you for nights out in the City. There is also a Holiday Inn owned by the Dulles Expo Center that I'll be adding info about soon along with the rest, and it is currently offering King bedrooms at ~$70 night, basically on-site w/ the tourney venue, and within a couple of miles of the Sunday Invitational venue.

Stick with your two round swiss.

I like it. There will be only one winner.

Dashofpepper wrote:At the end of the first day there are multiple "Best General" awards, and are given to the four folks who went 4-0. Thus ends the GT tournament. The prize of "Best Overall" goes to the winner of the swiss invitational (sorry if that's the wrong classification) the next day. IE, its the player who went 6-0. Their painting, sportsmanship, comp are irrelevant to them winning best overall. Those categories are judged and given prizes separately from the TOURNAMENT piece of it, as it should be.

That's the difference between the Nova Open and every other event. They aren't lumping scoring for the hobby portions and behavioral portions into the tournament piece, they're treating each of those categories with equal respect instead.

I think implying that other events don't respect individual parts of the hobby is a bit offbase. There are two (or more) possible views of awards when it comes to tournaments, and both are equally valid. I think claiming one way is more respectful of the other is setting a divisional tone that I for one would like to see simply go away. As Archibald 'Harry' Tuttle once said, "Listen, kid, we're all in it together".

AdeptiCon is a larger multi-event convention. Larger events with fewer rounds demand score separation. Our scenarios are designed to split the fields each round and provide small bonuses/penalties that help break up a static W/L scoring system. We have also chosen to stand with tradition when it comes to the general idea of "Best Overall or Overall Champion". As stated elsewhere, AdeptiCon considers itself a complete Hobby Event, hence the Overall award going the complete Hobbyist. That said, we fully encourage and reward people playing for individual awards. We introduced Best General/Tacticians to our events many years ago to respect that style of play.

What Mike is doing with the NOVA Open is interesting and I think it has great potential. The NOVA and something like AdeptiCon are completely different beasts when it comes to organization, social atmosphere and scope and will no doubt draw different overall crowds. I find this very positive for the community and wargaming in general. Get as many people playing, have events that address all styles and manners of play and it will benefit all. And somewhere...down the road...people will realize that not every event needs to be the same...

For the record, our "Renaissance Man" award yields a Vegas "golden ticket" and is equal parts record, appearance, and sports scores (making it "more" soft weighted than your typical tournament Overall). "Tournament Champion" is more akin to the Best General at other events, and that's the 6-0 finisher. The argument could be made that we go MORE hobby-centric on our equivalent of "Best Overall" than most, where battle points are well over 50% of the total overall evaluator, and it ends up going to the "undefeated pretty guy" as opposed to the "best" hobbyist.

I'm with Matthias in thinking that events don't necessarily need to all be the same on an Independent Circuit. That said, I think in years to come if we were ever to come up with standardized methods for evaluating "generalship" and "artistry" and "sportsmanship" across the circuit, it wouldn't be a bad thing. It's simply not a bad thing this way, either.

I do hope that a certain level of spin, or lumping my personal playstyle as impacting the Open, would not be a great thing ... there is as much (if not more) prize support and honor going to the hobby side as the competitive side at the Open, we're just utilizing a tournament head-to-head system that's designed more toward identifying the top competitors at the same time.

I'm enjoying the input and discussion ... and hope it will continue. You should get yourself and some of the Adepticon folks out here, Matthias

PS again - subjects such as the 6-0 second day, round robin, etc., will go up for input on my blog; ties up for input at http://whiskey40k.com as of now.

Glad to here that next year your planning on bumping it to two days regardless. Like I say MVB I understand needing to stay as close to the black as possible running one of these things.

MVBrandt wrote:For the record, our "Renaissance Man" award yields a Vegas "golden ticket" and is equal parts record, appearance, and sports scores (making it "more" soft weighted than your typical tournament Overall). "Tournament Champion" is more akin to the Best General at other events, and that's the 6-0 finisher.

I want it clearly stated that I think your doing a good thing by finding the best player record wise over the entire tournament. I just find it funny that some people see it as soft scores not counting toward the "winner". You just switched best overall and best general titles and awarded each a golden ticket. Same as most tournaments difference being your placing an emphasis on making sure there is a clearcut winner out of the 64 people attending using purely win/loss for best general. Which to be fair I really like since if it came down to pure win/loss I generally wind up on the winning side of a draw

And like you said because of the lack of difference in BP's the soft scores actually weigh in much heavier than the soft scores for the second golden ticket. More so than most other tournaments.

Good luck with this year MVB. Hopefully I'll be able to swing next year and see family while I'm out there.

**Edit**
Oh and stick with the 2 man swiss. Anything else is asking for a lack of clear winner. Plus after a 4 game day the day before, finding a new venue and worrying about traveling back it's for the best not to add another 3 hours to the gaming day.

In talking to Mike here, maybe its simply a matter of wording.

I think it comes down to the fact that you attend a tournament, and the title "Best Overall." A tournament should have a tournament champion. To reward hobbyists, it should also have categories for painting rewards. Also a fluffy/backstory reward / player choice kind of thing.

I heartily disagree with sportsmanship awards. You come to a tournament, you treat your opponents respectfully, you make new friends, and if you can't behave like an adult, you get kicked out. If you cheat, you get kicked out. Sportsmanship might be part of the score, but the SVDM did very well without it and there weren't any shenanigans with any of the games. And I definitely think that giving someone an award for being the best behaved is insulting and unwarranted, and makes some bad implications. ><


Anyway, my point is that instead of "Best General" and "Best Overall" I think that the division would be HUGELY taken down by relabeling these as "Tournament Champion" and "Best Hobbyist." To go to a tournament, to play in a tournament, and to win a tournament, and not be "Best Overall" is insulting. It wasn't a painting competition, and hobby elements are welcome, but the tournament needs a tournament winner. A Champion.

Honestly, it seems silly, but I honestly think that it would fix, or go a long way towards fixing the division. Whether "Best Hobbyist" includes battle points or not is up for discussion, but there should be a Tournament Champion award, and a hobbyist award. And since it *IS* a tournament, the tournament champion award should be as large or bigger than the best hobbyist award.

So many good thoughts all being generated. Food for the brain. If anyone wants to join in chatting re: tournament / whatever, I'm always at least semi-chattable via gchat (mvbrandt@gmail.com).

MVBrandt wrote:I'm enjoying the input and discussion ... and hope it will continue. You should get yourself and some of the Adepticon folks out here, Matthias

Can't speak for anyone else (although it wouldn't surprise me if a few of them are considering it), but my traveling for tournaments/playing in tournaments days are long over...plus we are expecting our first child in July...so I will be MIA for awhile. I also prefer my Marines in 6mm!

MVBrandt wrote:PS again - subjects such as the 6-0 second day, round robin, etc., will go up for input on my blog; ties up for input at http://whiskey40k.com as of now.

I don't think AdeptiCon missions produce true ties as much as they are meant to have varying levels of success/defeat as represented through Battle Points. It has worked well for our format over the years.

Aye - and when you don't have enough rounds to pare down to a clear winner, you need to do that. I hope folks will understand that when you run an event like Adepticon's 1850, and you only have the time/resources/planning for 3 rounds, there's not really a "better" way to do it.

It doesn't go "see, here's the clear best player," but it at least allows everyone to strive for the prize fairly over 3 rounds.

Very interesting sounding event! I'm nearby, and I came to your charity tournament last year.

I'll think about this one... I'm not sure if the missus would be thrilled for me to spend two consecutive weekends solidly warhammer-ing (since I'm attending GamesDay). I'm also a little hesitant about the format, since I anticipate being in the lower part of the bracket... so if I barely win my first game, I'll be paired up with the person who won their first game by the most. Eek!

RiTides wrote:Very interesting sounding event! I'm nearby, and I came to your charity tournament last year.

I'll think about this one... I'm not sure if the missus would be thrilled for me to spend two consecutive weekends solidly warhammer-ing (since I'm attending GamesDay). I'm also a little hesitant about the format, since I anticipate being in the lower part of the bracket... so if I barely win my first game, I'll be paired up with the person who won their first game by the most. Eek!

No, that's only for the second day invitational.

For day one, 64 people.

32 vs 32. 32 winners, 32 losers.

32 winners stack up against each other in 16 v 16 and on down until there are only 4 people left who have won their games.

Every game you play will be against someone with the same record as you. For the 4 person swiss, then its 1v4, 2v3.

That does present a challenge! The intent of that is twofold.

Here we start with another issue related to tournaments that don't have enough rounds to pare down to a clear winner. When you cannot do that, you *generally* want to swiss pair every round, so that the best players are tested from the get-go as best you can determine. This ensures (or in theory ensures) that the arbitrarily selected "best" at the end really is. The problem with this is that if #1 and #2 in reality play each other in round 2, you instantly pound #2 downard. Worse, if you have draws in play, both players may eliminate themselves from any chance to win, despite being the "best" of the players present. You really don't know.

In this approach, players that "barely" win are challenged to continue to win, while players that are crushing their opponents face a challenge - prove that it wasn't a fluke crushing - without being knocked out early by a near defeat. We also are acknowledging a "Win as a Win" approach vs. "scaled wins" as an approach. A 2-0 will never play a 1-1, for example.

If you can pare a tournament down to a clear winner, you want things to be "most" intense at the end. If players barely won a round against a very tough opponent in Round 1's "random" pairings, they can knock out players who drew "easy" first round pairings. Similarly, players who barely won against weaker opponents are quickly knocked into middling brackets.

An important note is this doesn't work at all if you don't finish the tournament out. We're also swiss pairing the 4th round, since not everyone plays in Rounds 5 and 6 - you want to make sure that the final 4 are fully "tested" and deserving of the spots.

Fortunately, we are also rewarding people within their record brackets. The best 3-1 finishers, 2-2 finishers, yatta yatta - competing well within your skill bracket will be rewarded, as will (in the case of the 3-1's) being in the top 10-15 but facing off against some of the very best in the process and not quite beating them all.

The heart of this, motivation-wise, is that you want 1 to play 2 in the final round. You don't want them knocking each other into the pits in Rounds 1 or 2 or 3.

I recall you attending the Outdoor Charity tourney last year, and am glad you're considering this one.

MVBrandt wrote:Aye - and when you don't have enough rounds to pare down to a clear winner, you need to do that. I hope folks will understand that when you run an event like Adepticon's 1850, and you only have the time/resources/planning for 3 rounds, there's not really a "better" way to do it.

It doesn't go "see, here's the clear best player," but it at least allows everyone to strive for the prize fairly over 3 rounds.

Right. We started looking at ways to improve the Championships last year, but with the size of the event we need to lock things down 5-6 months in advance so we can negotiate space with the hotel, wrangle up sponsor support, order tables, build terrain, find staff...so 2010 didn't see much apparent visible movement. For 2011 we are looking at a 2-day, qualifier format to bring that event in line with how we feel our attendees want it and to perhaps re-balance the competitive and hobby scales in regards to the convention overall (the seminar organization and Rogue Demon painting competition have made significant leaps and bounds over the past couple of years).

I think in the end what is happening with some events at AdeptiCon and what is happening in an event like the NOVA are honestly pretty similar and have many common goals. While I very much want each event to maintain a unique identity and feel - I am positive that there are beneficial lessons to be learnt from all events. No system in perfect and after almost a decade of running/organizing a medium to large sized we still find ourselves adjusting and tweaking schedule and events every year.

Here is a thought: For people coming in from out of town, what if you had another game for the guys who didn't qualify top 4 on the second day?

Lets say I want to come down (actually i DEFINTELY want to come, whether the wife says ok is another matter) and I pay for airfare hotels, but I have to assume that I MIGHT win 4 games, and thus have the sunday free. It would be nice to have something going on. maybe something like: anyone who isnt 4-0 plays two games (same scheduling as your sunday games), at random, for victory points, whoever has the highest VP total at the end wins the Miss Congeniality or Loser's Bracket, w/e you want to call it.

Otherwise you may end up with people who really think they don't have a shot at sunday gaming, only to end up 4-0, and cannot play the sunday, leaving your swiss pairing for the final 4 one man short.

BTW , I gather the VA portion of NOVA is Virginia, but whats the NO part?

NOVA = Northern Virginia. The the rest of state doesn't consider NOVA actually part of VA. Pretty much NOVA is in commuting distance to DC kinda like a suburb

Dumpling has it - the NO is for Northern. NOVA is what we call it up here, and it is more of a DC suburb ... the tournament location is a short trip right onto Constitution Ave and driving by the White House/Mall/Monuments/Etc. with almost no road changes along the way.

As far as the 2nd day goes - if someone cannot attend of the 4-0's, we'll be able to filter down through the 3-1's ... less than ideal, but what can you do.

We don't have the resources *this* year to extend the event to a full 2nd day in terms of table space requirements. We will be working on a number of things to help make sure people who don't make it to the Final Four find themselves able to enjoy their 2nd day in the DC Metro area (to include non-gaming options also).

Oh Mrs. Dash!

Does this mean you wont let your Justin come play down here at Bolter Beach?



G

Dodiez wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:I think round robin on the second day would produce a more clearcut winner overall. I don't see why playing one more game is that big of a deal either in regards to time. Adepticon has three games on Sunday and there were plenty of people who played... Didn't seem to affected anyone's travel schedule.

G

Ugh.

Getting home two and half hours later on a Sunday when people have to work the next day could be a deciding factor.

"I don't see why playing one more game is that big of a deal" comes off as rude to me, honestly. You have already tried to sow dissension earlier in the thread. Mr. "weren't you bashing Adepticon".

Just because one tourney does something does not mean this one will do that. Obviously, he wants to be a little different from the rest. That's the point here.

Amidst all of this discussion - if you are someone who is thinking of attending this event, but cannot confirm at this time, feel free to put your name on my list of such players via PM here or e-mail at mvbrandt@gmail.com

The 40k side especially is filling up at almost an alarming rate - and I want to make sure I can "alert" all people interested when things look like they're getting to that very full place, especially people who would have to arrange travel to attend.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Oh Mrs. Dash!

Does this mean you wont let your Justin come play down here at Bolter Beach?



G

I'm undecided about coming anyway. I've been filling out my calendar this year with GTs - the scoring format for Bolter Beach is a turnoff, in addition to the extremely long travel distance, and I don't know anyone who's going - my friends in Florida don't want to, and my acquaintances in the Wrecking Crew aren't going or have family obligations.

With the addition of the Nova Open to the calendar (3 hours away), Bolter Beach is fading in attractiveness. Do you know how long of a drive that is?!?!?

*EDIT* Also, calling me Justin is kind of weird. Stick to Dash if you would on here - when I read your threads and see you responding to someone without quotes and using their first name instead of their forum name, I have no idea who you're talking about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, a question for the OP:

Since your 64 slots are almost full, would you expand it to 80 slots to put 5 in the day 2 tournament? If fantasy peters out, is there a financial case anywhere for having a second tournament on Day 2 of some sort? Seems like you're getting ridiculous attention this far out for 40k, but I know you said that you can't afford the convention center for the second day and keep decent prize support.

What we would probably do is keep an eye on the Fantasy sign-ups, and double up the 40k heats, then make Day 2's invitational 3 rounds (Great 8 instead of Final Four). I can't really promise this, though - like I've said, we probably can't do a 2nd full day this year, and I'm more inclined to have a wait-list and expand next year, than open up a 2nd set of 32 or 64 this year and risk not filling that.

I will say that we really ... I don't know, I just got 2 more sign-ups in the last 30 minutes. We're a little past 50% now on 40k.

MVBrandt wrote:Scoring and Pairing

First Rounds are random paired

2nd and 3rd rounds are elimintation paired (meaning, that the highest scoring 1-0 faces the lowest scoring 1-0, for example)

Final round is swiss paired (in any true tournament, the ideal is for 1 to face 2 in round 4, 3 to face 4, etc.); this also enables armies built around winning vs. mauling people to be more competitive

In the 2nd day invitational final four, it's 1v4 and 2v3 leading into the final

Hey Dash,

I've highlighted the part I was referring to above... it does sound like a cool format, I'm just a little concerned about getting crushed game-wise

Just signed up(33 spots left). I'm going to try to get some more of the SWVA boys to come.

GG

That number is off by a couple, too - quirk of the system that got fudged in as we were setting it up.

Glad to have you attending, GG.
- Mike

PS - Where ya'll from exactly? I used to date a girl from Chilhowie.

No problem Dash. Maybe I will meet up with you at NOVA.

G

MVBrandt wrote:That number is off by a couple, too - quirk of the system that got fudged in as we were setting it up.

Glad to have you attending, GG.
- Mike

PS - Where ya'll from exactly? I used to date a girl from Chilhowie.

Really?

I think we dated the same chick!

*EDIT* I don't think that was funny. :(

I'm in Marion, but we have guys from Wytheville, Abingdon, and Bristol. Chilhowie is about 5 minutes south from where I live.

GG

I was suggesting the consideration of round robin the second day since I felt this might help to provide a more conclusive result, as this is what you are really after. I realize that this involves more time and there is that possibility you could end up with two players finishing with a 2-1 record the second day, which obviously would go against your main purpose. In light of that I think you should go ahead & use the Swiss pairing... It will work fine and you'll definitely end up with the desired result.

Good luck with your event. It sounds like it should be a good one indeed.

: )

G

Thanks for the positivity - we gonna see you there, BBF?

I am going to try to make it out for sure. Sounds like a good one.

G

Are the fantasy slots filling up just as quickly? I'm still on the fence about this, will try to decide soon...

Fantasy slots are starting to fill up more quickly. We "settled" on using ETC or slightly modified ETC for Fantasy comp, which was a question holding people up. We're also keeping tabs through the circuits we have available on 8th ed, which may be a June release. Depending on that, comp may or may not be necessary, but presuming 7th, there you go.

What is "ETC"? I can't find it mentioned in the thread before now, and I'm not familiar with that...

Blog discussion re: pairing system for the Open: http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/04/swiss-is-for-chocolate-seeding-and.html

Blog discussion identifying Fantasy comp going up shortly.

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/04/in-pursuit-of-perfection.html

I realize that April and August don't share much in common except the letter A, and sometimes being in the same year, but I wonder how far in advance we can expect rules packets, trial scenarios, point breakdowns, etc.

at that comp system (based on the one here... I run an all-forest-spirit army for wood elves, so there is only one core choice available to me... I don't understand why "max 3 of the same core choice" helps balance anything?

Bummer...! It sounds like he is going to edit it, not just use it straight as-is? Is it possible that that restriction will change?

The comp seems to force lists to be more well-rounded, instead of focused in one area... and while that is fine, I'm not sure I like all of the restrictions... especially the one about core . I usually take 5 units of dryads... 4 would be okay, but 3... I don't think I'll have a chance!

RiTides wrote: at that comp system (based on the one here... I run an all-forest-spirit army for wood elves, so there is only one core choice available to me... I don't understand why "max 3 of the same core choice" helps balance anything?

Bummer...! It sounds like he is going to edit it, not just use it straight as-is? Is it possible that that restriction will change?

The comp seems to force lists to be more well-rounded, instead of focused in one area... and while that is fine, I'm not sure I like all of the restrictions... especially the one about core . I usually take 5 units of dryads... 4 would be okay, but 3... I don't think I'll have a chance!

ETC takes a bit of getting used to. We've run one using those rules, and it was interesting. Have another coming up on the 17th. Partly popular right now because we have one of the guys from the NZ team in the area, and several of the US team are in NJ/NY area. Makes for an interesting change up, but not something anyone wants to play all of the time. Although a good chunk of the world uses that system for a lot of their tournaments.

My troll army doesn't come out to play in ETC at all. No Throgg, so no trolls as core.

Especially given the speed at which we are filling slots, the 40k rules packets, trial scenarios, etc., should be out by early or mid May at the latest, and will be distributed at that point.

40k sign-ups continue to be fast ... if you're on the fence, at the least send me a message to include you on my "heads up, we're almost full" e-mail list.

Although I know ETC is not perfect - we all know that from the competitive stand point, WHFB is not either.

I think using a 'standard' (for lack of a better work) comp system - especially one with the caliber of ETC is the overall best bet for a more competitive environment, such as a a Vegas qualifying tournament.

Although restricting fun and fluffy armies such as the all dryad/treeman lists, it also prevents the insane overpowered armies such as VC and Daemons from sweeping away with everything.

I know personally I go to tournaments to win, but that is my priority - and I know not everyone shares it! Although lists are restricted under the ETC, I think it really allows people to field new armies, try new builds and find a 'new favorite' as opposed to simply fielding the 'same old' army time and time again.

My Dwarf list that I plan on playing will not be legit due to two organ guns (Boo! Hiss!) - so I'll have to tweak as necessary, but keeping in mind that I won't *need* two organ guns at this point... except for all those pesky dyads! =)

Heck, I might even dust off my Ogres, 2600 points is huge! Now if only they'll let me take a Slaughter Master without Tyrant!

I'm still on the fence of what I want to play... I'm starting space pups up in 40k, and my Orks are quite pretty and do well on the battlefield for me... but Fantasy is where the real fun is!

For all of us that use the INAT on a regular basis, note that this tourney will have it's own tourney FAQ.

Hopefully in time to get in some games playing by the NOVA Open rules.............?

While I don't think it will be drastically different, Don is correct - we'll have a pretty comprehensive FAQ of our own.

We should have that, and the rules packets, and other things out by early to mid May at the latest.

Good point, Mr. M!

You are more than welcome. If I might make a suggestion. Take the INAT as your primary source document and that way you only have to post a list of those items you change, and can use the INAT reference numbers so people can find the changes quick and easy.

So (based on our discussions elsewhere) you could simply post to your FAQ:
IG.47D.02 -- Q: Does 'Weaken Resolve' affect units with the 'Stubborn' special rule when they are taking a morale test?
A: No, it does not.

don_mondo wrote:You are more than welcome. If I might make a suggestion. Take the INAT as your primary source document and that way you only have to post a list of those items you change, and can use the INAT reference numbers so people can find the changes quick and easy.

So (based on our discussions elsewhere) you could simply post to your FAQ:
IG.47D.02 -- Q: Does 'Weaken Resolve' affect units with the 'Stubborn' special rule when they are taking a morale test?
A: No, it does not.

This works very well. It gives you the flexibility to note changes in the INAT, but gives you the bulk of the INAT rules for people to answer a lot of their own questions.

maaksel- thanks for that, that's a great perspective . Makes me feel better about it .

I'm going to mikhaila's event next weekend, so I'll get a taste for how I like ETC and be able to make a better decision about this tourney!

RiTides wrote:I'm going to mikhaila's event next weekend, so I'll get a taste for how I like ETC and be able to make a better decision about this tourney!

How did you end up doing with ETC? What list did you run?

Sorry, I'm never sure how to use the tenses! By "next" weekend, I meant what is now this coming weekend (the 17th) . So I'll update about what I think of ETC then, and maybe put up a bat rep in that section

As a heads up - we'll be releasing mission primers for the 40k side sooner than later - working on the packet now.

If there's anyone in particular who is strongly interested in playtesting the primers and providing feedback, feel free to let me know via PM, and I can give you the framework as I'm polishing the presentation of the actual docs.

The Primers will not be the same as the actual missions, but will be of the same format.

I've got access to a vast network of 40k players from around the world through Vassal / Skype. I'd be happy to run them by whomever I can for feedback and compile it all for you.

Primer missions are ready for distro - just send me an e-mail at mvbrandt@gmail.com to ask for the basic data.

They'll go up on the site early May (or earlier) whenever I can actually polish off my template building skills and make 'em prettier than a word doc.

Thanks,
- Mike

PS - Reiteration that if you want to attend the 40k tourney, sign up sooner than later!

I went to the monthly ETC tourney at mikhaila's store, and had a great time . I'll probably put up a post about it on here soon. However, I do think it also shows me that ETC is not really for me... it's great for the army, but with my self-imposed list restrictions (only forest spirits) I had trouble having enough units to get up to the point level. I think I ended up bringing a pretty weak list (3 massacres! and 2 at the low table!) but I can't think how to change it, and still remain all forest-spirits and meet the ETC restrictions.

All that to say, I don't think I'll be attending this tourney, also since I've already committed to going to Games Day, and I haven't yet braved two weekends in a row of warhammer tourneys on my wife

I hope it's awesome, though! And overall, I think ETC is excellent for a tourney like this, the games seemed very competitive for the most part

Thanks for the feedback on ETC RiTides, and I'm sorry it doesn't work well for your army in particular.

Update - logo / primer mission / etc. should now all be accessible via site, whiskey

http://novaopen.com/
http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/

Running an 8-man Primer Tourney on the 8th to stress test our scoring mechanisms. "8 on the 8th."

If any attendees/community members would like to get 8 of their buddies together, and run their own 8 on the 8th on the same day, I will *PROVIDE* a pair of trophies and have them sent to you. Requirement is that you report on it during the day between rounds, and photograph/report heavily on the round itself.

As always, feedback is welcome and often utilized in pushing forward and making this event the most comprehensive and complete tournament possible. My constituents are YOU all, not my and my team's own whims.


For RiTides and all - high probability we will be using EIGHTH EDITION FANTASY, NO COMP. More data to come.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
UPDATE:

We will be giving out a FREE registration to the Open for the winner of any group that does the "8 on the 8th" primer tournament and coherently/comprehensively reports on it.

Does that mean I get my money back if I win your little tourney?

For RiTides and all - high probability we will be using EIGHTH EDITION FANTASY, NO COMP. More data to come.

Probably a good way to go. With the changes in 8th still unknown, any sort of comp system is going to be rough, and ETC rules probably won't be updated by then. We discussed doing this for the Big Show, on July 24/25 but it's just too close to the new rules hitting on July 10. Not possible for people to get armies ready under new guidelines.

That sounds good, MVBrandt! I am intruiged, just have to check on the schedule and see if I can get away with the two-weekends-in-a-row tourney schedule . I am getting really excited for 8th...

Why the aversion to Kill Points?

I realize that a lot of people in the competitive crowd seem to have problems with the Kill Point system. I think this is mostly due to the fact that if you look at a lot of the style of lists those people advocate you'll see almost full FOC charts fully meched up. Meaning naturally that they have very high kill points.

I personally feel they are an important part of the the game design of 5th edition. Vehicles got more cheaper and harder to kill. This was designed to keep those armies in check against armies that don't have access to vehicles in the same quantities like Tyrannids.

Otherwise they look good MVB. Hopefully I'll be able to make it

I had a really long KP response typed up, but this is the internet, and such subjects can become heated.

Let us leave it at this - we've used KP in all our prior, smaller tourneys, and in our leagues. Only once in over 150 recorded games did we ever have a KP mission where the winner scored fewer VP than the loser, winning *purely* by KP. Furthermore, that one instance was an Eldar army with ~15 KP vs. a Demons army with ~11 KP. So, the demon scored more vp, but fewer KP, despite the Eldar having MORE KP via dedicated transports. Why? The Eldar got his teeth half kicked in, but targeted the smallest demon units with everything, even at cost to tactical advantage. Keep subjective out of it, my purpose in this paragraph is ONLY to help the reader understand that I am - at the least - not fabricating the stance based off personal WHIM. None of our plans or missions or anything for the Open are based off what "I" want, beyond as close as we can get to a fair, balanced tournament that favors all and in theory will reveal the best overall hobbyist, and the best general, without question. We'll see.

For KP, it is entirely possible and very real that in your average tournament, some lower KP army will draw another low KP army by chance in the KP mission, and then draw the MSU spammed guard or marine or w/e in the objective mission. Unfortunate. Similarly, it can happen that said MSU army draws a very low KP army in the KP mission, and draws the high KP opponent in the objective mission. Can every army bring lots of KP and have it be a good list? No. Can every army bring very FEW KP and have it be a good list? No. The reason you see higher KP guard, sm, etc., armies more often than not is b/c it's the "best" course of action for many REGARDLESS of the KP mission.

Can every army build 2,000 points competitively within the force org? AH, much closer to "yes." There is no chance that in the VP mission, one guy will have 1,000 VP and the other will have 2,000. Whereas in KP, "luck of the draw" determines how hard or easy your mission will be. That's, I would think obviously, "unfair." I approve of KP over long haul leagues, where your odds of poor match-ups diminish over time and where a single loss due to a poor draw is far less devastating. I approve of KP in the game in general, pick-up games, the stuff that is 95% of what we play. VP are basically argument free. If you split your points down into weaker constituent units, it's easier to score increments, but the increments are smaller. Similarly, if you jam your victory points into fewer but more uber units, it's harder to score increments but the increments are larger.

We can all acknowledge that there's a big argument in play over KP, and I don't place myself PERSONALLY anywhere on it in a formal way - I own and routinely play a couple of very low KP armies, and a couple of decently high KP armies (my "tourney" army is typically 13-16, which isn't really an absurd #), but the above two paragraphs will hopefully at least shed light on why we as a TO group, with the addition of a world wide web's worth of input, input on my blog, etc., decided to go that way.

I'm actually quite hope you'll be able to make it, as well! We've started to get a really impressive, nationwide crowd attending, including some of the web's more colorful characters. As I looked at a Wisconsin registration earlier, I couldn't help but smile at what should turn out to be quite the event.


PS - As a caveat, I acknowledge and respect the argument on KP v VP. For us, we made the decision to go with a system that prevented "luck of the draw" on the Annihilation mission of the day being too much of a "swing." Since everyone will have 2,000 points, everyone can score 2,000 points off their opponents when that mission comes up. I would cordially ask that a KP VP argument not spawn out of this tourney announcement thread - I'm not the type to tell anyone that they are WRONG, so I have no reason to argue this out. My intent here is only to share the rationale of our tourney group re: KP / VP in the mission format ... and that could always change, based on feedback from our national 8 on the 8th primer tourney day (which folks at Dakka are welcome to participate in: http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/04/8-on-8th-in-detail-free-stuff.html

I was just wondering. If your evidence supports it it's ok with me. It's just something I've always seen as a limiting factor and it does increase the power of certain builds immeasurably to not have to worry about KP missions. Thanks for the long and well thought out reply MVB, I hope I'll be able to make it

You do not like KPs, so your tournament will not have them and nothing is going to change that. I see that you are a mech guard player, so that explains why.

As Hulksmash said, KP are a balancing factor in the game.

You know the fact that you have had only 1 army that scored fewer VPs that KPs might be that everyone knows that there is going to be KP missions and plan accordingly? They make larger squads and take more durable choices, squadron up and blob up. If you remove KPs, then players are free to build their armies so that they do not have to worry about losing a lot of small and cheap units, and can spam them instead.

Let’s take your squadron rules with vehicles. KP missions encourage people to take one squadron of 3 vehicles, but your VP scenarios rewards people to take 3 squads of one vehicle.

There are just so many armies that are at the top tier that benefit from removing KP, and VPs make them even better.
Mech Guard
Razorback Spam
Dark Eldar

You play IG, do you know how hard it is to get VPs from a mech guard army compared to KPs?

Blackmoor, given that I play Necron, Tyranid, Mech Guard, and a couple of other armies routinely, and kept track not only of the KP/VP stats, but of what armies were being played, I would prefer to avoid a situation where there are accusations or inferences of plain, amoral/immoral bias - especially after I've repeatedly claimed that isn't what things are based upon, nor is it a subject to be debated in this thread.


I am sure that you have played 40k for many years, like myself, across half a dozen or more armies, like myself, and would be equally interested in keeping negativity out of very positive tourney threads, eh? If you'd like to debate the merits of KP vs. VP and their impact on the competitive game with me, I can be reached via PM or on my blog, or on e-mail. If your intent is to attempt to discredit me, on the other hand, by claiming I'm a biased and purely Mech IG player ... well, I don't get why you would be so motivated in the first place.

Since you can't possibly be motivated by some strange desire to "go after" me (a stranger), send me a PM or e-mail, and we can privately discuss whatever merits.

There are literally dozens of KP vs VP arguments across the Dakka forums that people can view or partake in if that's your intent instead (open KP/VP argument on the Dakka forums).

- Mike

PS - I was happy to share with Hulk some of our bases for going with VP, since he asked so politely! I am not interested in arguing the kp/vp merits in a tourney notice thread, in the wrong forum (which is why you'll notice I haven't disagreed a wink with your arguments here - simply asked you to redirect them elsewhere).

I am sorry, I thought this thread was a place to discuss the Nova open and it's missions.

To quote from the end of your batrep in game #1 of the Adepticon Championships:
“neither of us were fans of kill points.”

You don’t like KPs, which is fine. It is your tournament and you can run it any way you want to, but don’t claim that it is because of statistical data, or anything else. I hate capture and control missions, and if I ran a tournament I might not have a C&C mission in it.

I was thinking about going to the Nova open even though I live on the other side of the country I like some of the things that you are doing. If I do go, it will be a significant investment I would want it to be the best event that it can be.

The biggest problems that I have had in all of the Indy GTs are the missions. I have been to 3 of them (4 if you count Adepticon twice) and the weakness of all of them have been their missions (as you said in your blog about Adepticon's missions).

The problem with most of the missions of the Indy GT is that they favor certain armies, and certain builds. Missions should be balanced and fair so that every army has a chance at winning, and taking out KP favors some armies. If you want it to be truly a competitive event, you should stick at close as possible to the missions in the rule book. I was bored and I use to like seeing new missions at tournaments, but now that I have seen so many bad ones, a large part of me wishes to go back to the missions in the rule book. Especially since you are only having 4 games.

The problem with most of the missions of the Indy GT is that they favor certain armies, and certain builds. Missions should be balanced and fair so that every army has a chance at winning, and taking out KP favors some armies. If you want it to be truly a competitive event, you should stick at close as possible to the missions in the rule book.

I concur with Blackmoor on this point. Like him, I'm considering attending the event and I like a lot of what you're planning on doing. Attending this event will also be a fairly significant investment in time and money and if I'm going to attend I would want to make sure the playing field is as even as possible. As has been stated taking out KPs gives a huge boost to a number of armies.

I make the trip every year to the UK GT events because I know there is a level playing field and they are using basic missions meaning every army can be competitive.

It's a matter of careful word choice that comes into play when personal bias is in play. As you can see, of the many tournaments / leagues I've run, every one has used KP.

The important thing that we are attempting to do at the NOVA Open is establish a competitive, fair and balanced event, where "draw" in terms of who you play each round by mission, etc. does not influence your chances of coming out with a win differently than another player. That is to say, that the Mech IG who faces a high KP opponent during the KP round should not have an easier time of it than the Mech IG who faces the 5 kill point opponent. To wit, then, the 5 kill point opponent should not have a harder time of it facing an equally low KP army than his friend who faces a 20 KP army and easily scores more than his 5.

It is important when making broad sweeping, and negative-oriented statements such as "you do not like KPs, and so your tournament is not going to have them" that you are as detailed with your statistical analysis as possible. You took the time to seek out a comment I made about KP from a personal mission experience, but did not take the time to evaluate the things presented in this very thread.

For the purposes of the Open, we've released 3 primer rounds, whose missions we've encouraged people work through and provide feedback based upon.

For your part, rather than simply state that VP or KP provide an unfair advantage (or don't), a fact that is in contrast to a strong amount of statistical data I've personally worked with from running all prior events with the KP mission active, you might better find yourself making a point better by test driving some of the primer rounds (since their intent is to be test driven and fed back on), and let me know how they go / toss me some battle reports over e-mail / etc.

Especially if your genuine intent is to attend the Open (and if it is, I naturally care *even* more about your input).

Allow me to leave it at this:
Our Primer Rounds are what they are b/c we have played a *lot* of book mission 40k. All prior events utilized book missions w/ VP active as tiebreakers, per the back of the 5th Edition rulebook. In this event, our primer rounds have a different format - because KP have proven to be a source of unfair/negative evaluation at the tournament level.

That's to say, that "bad draw" skews peoples' perceptions of the fairness with which they were paired up / etc.

Every army *must* have scoring units, and every army *must* cap at 2,000 VP, in the primer round format, hence the utilization (at PRESENT, pending input, and not in a fixed way) of an annihilation mission where everyone has an identical number of scorable points, regardless of opponent.

Playtest it some, provide feedback if you are of a mind, and let me know where you're at. As opposed to your initial view - which would infer that I'm as petty an organizer as it gets, and would make decisions based purely off personal whim - I would appreciate you giving my mission the benefit of the doubt (since you read my blog, and know what it is) and trust a couple things:

a) Our missions are not "fixed," but are primers to be playtested and fedback on
b) It behooves me to present the most balanced and fair tournament possible. Playing "Basic" 40k would have everyone rolling book missions in every round separately (I've even done this before in an event). I'm sure we can agree on having fixed mission by round ... I would hope the mind can be expansive enough on all fronts to consider other amendments, then, built just as equally toward fair play.

Let this sit also as an invitation to you *and* anyone else reading to playtest the primers, and/or participate in 8 on the 8th, and provide feedback based upon squaring off "worry" lists/codices.

So, determine what codex you think is treated unfairly / imbalanced by this, and playtest it across the primer format vs. the lists you think it overbalances - then provide me w/ the batreps. That's what we're doing, and it's what has influenced the state of the primers so far.

NOT ... the fact that one of my armies is Mech IG, or I'm not a "fan" of it. Empirical evidence I'm happy to provide will happily highlight my "perfect" history of using KP in every event ever hosted.

Remember that my constituency is YOU, the player. I can play 40k any way I want any day with various friends. I will not play in my own tournament, after all, so I have no personal stake in the rules whatsoever. A lot of tournament organizers may select missions with their own intent to "change" the world of 40k or express personal bias, but I am responsible for putting on the fairest, most neutral, best event possible. It behooves me to take ALL statistical analysis and feedback into account and put the BEST possible event forward for all attendees. Give me that data, and I will absolutely put it to use. Give me the benefit of the doubt *not* to presume right away that my rationale for running a tournament is ... one of my 6 personal armies. It'll serve you well, b/c you'll have the pleasure of being listened to on the internet. Since Blackmoor reads my blog, he has seen a history of "listening" and seeing that open mindedness play out in positive changes to the Open already from its initial ideas.

Cheers and thanks for the input, just making sure we're on the same page with all the facts,
- Mike

PS - We're not committed to a VP mission, or a Quarters mission, or a 5-fixed-objective mission. These are the three missions "active" in the primer rounds. We're committed to fair analysis, and are playtesting extensively, taking *ALL* feedback into account, and hosting a prize-awarding nationwide "primer" day to further evaluate things. If one or many missions appears unfair or imbalanced to the point that it would threaten the integrity of the very point we're making on the gaming front (competitive, fair, and neutral), we'll take that into account when we release the "Final" missions that will be used in the actual tournament. Just keep in mind that we a) want to make sure we are not personally mischaracterized (i.e. You play mech IG, so you don't get it) and b) have to take in all sources of data and opinion ... so we won't be able to make *everyone* happy about *everything*.

I am, on the other hand, pleased to see that both of you have had your interest sparked despite the distance by the things we've worked toward so far. Hopefully our product will continue to sway you as we move closer to the event. Let me know if either of you need help or advice with travel plans, things to do in DC, etc., should you decide to attend or require more data.

Alex, I'll be there.

You're not only required to attend, you must also bring a pink army of some sort! My wife is excited to see you again.

Maybe we will finally meet across the table Dash. I'll have my BA ready by then.

G

Hey Dash, are you going to be playing your Dark Eldar?

I'm probably going to be doing the Fantasy with my Empire, but I want to see a good Dark Eldar player in action.

People have been playing DE for years... the fact that most people have never seen them is the best thing they have going for them.

G

Yeah, I just sold my Dark Eldar (first army ever) to fund my space wolves. I'm 100% sure I'll be playing DE again when they release.

I wouldn't considering myself a great player, but I know how to play. Just curious to watch a higher level player with a DE list.

I am sure the new Dark Eldar are going to be a lot better all around. I think Phil Kelly is writing the codex, so you are all set for a fun time.

G

For anyone considering running an 8 on the 8th primer, our primer mission packet is now up for view on the nova open website, in the 40k rules section.

maaksel wrote:Hey Dash, are you going to be playing your Dark Eldar?

I'm probably going to be doing the Fantasy with my Empire, but I want to see a good Dark Eldar player in action.

Well, my Orks have stomped tail this year, but not in a circuit GT, so I'm contemplating the Pink Waaaugh! I heard that Stelek will be in attendance, and his viewpoint on Orks is that they are the worst and least competitive codex in 40k right now, so the idea of bringing orks to a GT he's attending and winning with them is attractive in an e-peen swinging way.

Granted, I'd still have to win with them, but I can't win with them if I don't bring them. What I'd *really* like to do is play against him with my Orks - that would be a fantastic battle report. For all the talking he does, his lists traditionally perform poorly when used by other people, and he performs poorly at events too, so his wide reader base is confusing. I'd like nothing more than to play him with the army he's most comfortable dismissing against one of his "uber-competitive" lists and teach him some of the many things he doesn't know about Orks.

Dashofpepper wrote: I heard that Stelek will be in attendance.

Lol yeah right. Someone please explain why he would go to this. He never goes to GTs.

He announced his intent to come, presuming someone gets a job to pay for it.

Stelek has a decent track record at the GTs he has attended. I would not so quickly dismiss him. If he goes to NOVA he will probably have somewhat of a home team advantage since the event is being promoted as a competitive event, not a hobby event.

G

Dashofpepper wrote:

maaksel wrote:Hey Dash, are you going to be playing your Dark Eldar?

I'm probably going to be doing the Fantasy with my Empire, but I want to see a good Dark Eldar player in action.

Well, my Orks have stomped tail this year, but not in a circuit GT, so I'm contemplating the Pink Waaaugh! I heard that Stelek will be in attendance, and his viewpoint on Orks is that they are the worst and least competitive codex in 40k right now, so the idea of bringing orks to a GT he's attending and winning with them is attractive in an e-peen swinging way.

Granted, I'd still have to win with them, but I can't win with them if I don't bring them. What I'd *really* like to do is play against him with my Orks - that would be a fantastic battle report. For all the talking he does, his lists traditionally perform poorly when used by other people, and he performs poorly at events too, so his wide reader base is confusing. I'd like nothing more than to play him with the army he's most comfortable dismissing against one of his "uber-competitive" lists and teach him some of the many things he doesn't know about Orks.

I'd love to see you do just that. Unfortunately, you can't teach those who can't learn. Be content to run him over and stomp him into the ground.

I'd like to comment real quick:

1) Yes, Stelek "endorsed" the NOVA Open (I did not ask him to, for the record) and stated he and his friend John would be attending presuming he has a job by then.

2) The event is billed as not a "competitive" and "not hobby" one, but as separate but equal between the two. Note that for each system, there are 2 "golden tickets" to the Vegas Finals being handed out. One is to the 6-0 tourney champ, and one is to the Renaissance Man, which is only 33% record/score, and 67% sports/appearance. So, it's actually / arguably easier for an artistic good sport to go to Vegas via the NOVA Open than it is at events like Adepticon and others, where the tickets go to Overall/Best Gen, which are awards based on majority or entirely battle points.

So ... hobbyists be alerted to that fact - while a big focus is being put on separating the competitive component from "paint score" and ensure a balanced, fair tourney field, with a single "clear" winner of the competitive front ... the same attention is being paid to the hobby side of our beloved ... well, hobby

Black Blow Fly wrote:Stelek has a decent track record at the GTs he has attended. I would not so quickly dismiss him. If he goes to NOVA he will probably have somewhat of a home team advantage since the event is being promoted as a competitive event, not a hobby event.

G

Yeah, I knew that, but since he spends a lot time saying that most tournaments suck, and thats why he never goes to them, I was kind of shocked.

But I guess it makes some sense.

Let me get this right, you are going with a single elimination tournament format, and are you going to re-seed every round?

Opposites play within each w/l bracket, instead of sames. That is to say, that instead of #1 playing #2 after round 1, #1 will play #32 (both 1-0 finishers, but with different scales of victory). Discussion in detail @ http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/04/swiss-is-for-chocolate-seeding-and.html

IT IS NOT A SINGLE ELIMINATION TOURNAMENT. It's just pairing off "elimination" style, or seeded, instead of swiss pairing.

It is not a true elimination tournament, but if you loose a game you are out of the running to win (if I read it right).

Since you are re-seeding every round, that means that the first game will be very important. If you get paired up against a new player, or a "hobbyist" and you get to crush them, then that will make it a lot easier in the later rounds. While on the other hand if you get a tough draw and squeak out a win, then you end up facing the toughest opponents in the next round.

Not quite true, but like any other tournament, a flat out loss on your record is kind of a kicker ... I'm not sure there are many where you can win Best General despite losing. If you draw in a close game due to a tough first round, but break it with your tiebreakers, you are still in it of course for Best General, but will be up against someone with a higher first round score ... and you'll have to prove it was indeed just a tough match-up.

Our equivalent of Best Overall is not at all exclusive to a perfect record, and is in fact less record-exclusive than most tourneys.

As for Best General, it's only exclusive to 4-0 finishers (who all win an award regardless) *IF* all 4-0 finishers can make the 2nd day. If not, it'll go down the row of highest rated 3-1's, etc.


What would be most accurate, to keep it to a simple answer, is to say that a "Win" holds nearly as much bearing as a "Big Win," and a "Minor Win is as dramatically better than a "Loss" as a "Major Win." Our format doesn't "grade" you on how much you won BY, just on whether you won. This offsets the "crap my opponent was tough now I'm behind on battle points" issue you see in a lot of standard tourney set-ups, where you can't realistically "win" unless you crush everyone. To make sure it's still fair, however, we "seed" pair people ... so while you're in the running so long as you win (Even if you aren't crushing people), the more marginal your wins, the tougher your subsequent match-ups.

What are the tie-breakers exactly? Does opponents' records factor in (If you tied, or barely won, but your opponent then goes on to do very well, it would place you higher).

Check out the Primer Mission Packet, on the nova open site, and linked above, for a better idea of what tiebreakers are and how they operate.

For purposes of the 4 Top General awards, you are only responsible for your own performance. For the Tourney Champ (our equiv of best general), keep winning and you will get it, period.

It's different from a "battle point" type situation, where multiple undefeateds remain standing and people with ties can supersede those with all close wins, etc. etc.



As usual for all these questions, i.e. for you Blackmoor, take a few runs through the primer packet and give me some batreps and detailed feedback - I think I've established a pretty clear track record of changing things / adjusting viewpoints based upon feedback. You'd be surprised ... just gotta give me some real detail and discussion to work with, rather than gut feel. Also, running an 8 on the 8th type format with it is always welcome, and I'll try to send a couple trophies out to anyone who does.

I was reading YTTH and saw you had solicited Stelek to review your missions & provide feedback. He sure had a lot of suggestions.

G

I solicit everyone for feedback - here (if you've noticed), Stelek, *anyone* with a big mouth and an opinion. Stelek e-mailed me asking if I minded him publishing his thoughts on the primer, and I said sure.

Everyone has feedback on the internet when they're asked to give it (or even when they aren't!) ... your own tournament's thread being a great example.

Remember, however, that these are PRIMER missions - not the "Final" missions for the open. Gotta keep reiterating that. Half the point is letting people familiarize with the format, half the point is stress testing and feedback. I believe Stelek and his friends will be having their own 8 on the 8th as well, and his feedback after having actually played the missions will be just as welcome as everyone else's!

MVBrandt wrote:I'm not sure there are many where you can win Best General despite losing.

I lost game 5 (the last game) of the Slaughter in Space GT 12-6, but still won Best General because my scores in my other rounds put me significantly ahead of anyone else for Battle Points. It can happen. My opponent and I were fighting for Best General / Best Overall.

Aye - at the Open, you can't go 3-1 and beat someone who goes 4-0 for the BEST GENERAL ticket. Well, I suppose you could if someone dropped out of the final four. By design, only someone who actually wins all their games can be Best General. Regardless, for the Best Overall equiv (Renaissance Man), losing games does not exclude you at all.

Keep in mind of course that losing a game still could get you to the Best Gen, if one of the top 4 don't / can't make the 2nd day invite.

The packet doesn't seem to indicate what happens if you table your opponent. I presume the usual- play out the remaining turns and see if you can achieve the other objectives? Or are you just giving them max points, like Adepticon? It should be stated in the packet.

Good catch - one made by a couple now. Glad I released the primer

We're going to *probably* go with playing out the remaining turns and seeing if you can achieve the remaining objectives.
Thanks for the feedback.

Yeah, that always seems fairest to me. It's quick and easy, and if your army is physically incapable of getting to/holding an objctive in the turns remaining (with no enemy on the table to oppose you), it seems pretty clear that you don't deserve those objectives. Whereas on the other hand if you table your opponent in 4 turns, and have time left in the round, it doesn't make sense to end it right there and not let you grab objectives you're able to.

I think its great you are taking advice from Stelek. You seem to have a great affinity for him.

G

I am not sure I would say that. I have my share of disagreements with him, as the record easily shows if you're of a mind to look for it.

He asked me if he could promote the Open on his site, and I am not one to turn down largess.

Also, keep in mind that I am not taking advice from him, any more than I am taking advice from you, or Mannahnin, or my buddies. Stelek has a podium, but everyone's input is equivalent in my own book.



I'd appreciate that being kept in mind. The Open doesn't have any "advisors" that we are utilizing to help mold our tournament or design our missions, beyond the input from the wider community.

Strange thread shenanigans.

Like I said I think it's good that you will listen to what Stelek has to offer in terms of advice. You are certainly open minded and I think that is a good thing for the NOVA Open. : )

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Like I said I think it's good that you will listen to what Stelek has to offer in terms of advice. You are certainly open minded and I think that is a good thing for the NOVA Open. : )

G

If only we could get you to do the same with Bolter Beach in terms of all the advice you've been given.

Did you read my response? I think each indy gt run this year so far has shown that they are shaped in a large part based upon the local gaming culture. We have actually made quite a few modifications based upon the feedback so far received. Some things are easier to change than others. Basically your advice was to simply parrot what Jon said and I have given a detailed response. Feel free to go back and read that if you happen to have time.

G

Black Blow Fly wrote:Did you read my response? I think each indy gt run this year so far has shown that they are shaped in a large part based upon the local gaming culture. We have actually made quite a few modifications based upon the feedback so far received. Some things are easier to change than others. Basically your advice was to simply parrot what Jon said and I have given a detailed response. Feel free to go back and read that if you happen to have time.

G

You know...if you could remove the one mandatory snarky thing that you say in almost every post you make, people wouldn't think you're such a jerk. Example: What you wrote here was ok until you felt the need to toss in that my posting is just parroting something someone else wrote. Maybe you think that people are too dense to see your not-so-cleverly hidden barbs, but you really should stop. You're honestly the only individual I've ever met who can both universally offend everyone to the point where the mention of your name in any Dakka discussion results in rude comments....and at the same time still be tolerated because you delicately walk the razor's edge on saying something worth getting yourself banned for being a turd.

You'll probably say something snarky and insert another half-veiled barb here - and dismiss this as angry ranting, but it positively isn't. You have valuable input for the community - you just need to learn to speak without insulting people in every other sentence.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Did you read my response? I think each indy gt run this year so far has shown that they are shaped in a large part based upon the local gaming culture. We have actually made quite a few modifications based upon the feedback so far received. Some things are easier to change than others. Basically your advice was to simply parrot what Jon said and I have given a detailed response. Feel free to go back and read that if you happen to have time.

G

You know...if you could remove the one mandatory snarky thing that you say in almost every post you make, people wouldn't think you're such a jerk. Example: What you wrote here was ok until you felt the need to toss in that my posting is just parroting something someone else wrote. Maybe you think that people are too dense to see your not-so-cleverly hidden barbs, but you really should stop. You're honestly the only individual I've ever met who can both universally offend everyone to the point where the mention of your name in any Dakka discussion results in rude comments....and at the same time still be tolerated because you delicately walk the razor's edge on saying something worth getting yourself banned for being a turd.

You'll probably say something snarky and insert another half-veiled barb here - and dismiss this as angry ranting, but it positively isn't. You have valuable input for the community - you just need to learn to speak without insulting people in every other sentence.

I don't see anything wrong with his post. Could be you are overly sensitive or have a greater sense of inferiority.

I agree. Self important people tend to get defensive quickly.

Davicus, hard to put much stock in what you say - you generate as many mod alerts as anyone I've ever seen on Dakka.

Dashofpepper wrote:Davicus, hard to put much stock in what you say - you generate as many mod alerts as anyone I've ever seen on Dakka.

Well, it looks like I m not the only one who thinks that way And I don't see how my record has anything to do with my ability to interpret Black Blow Fly? I think you are the one who has a problem here :-) And I m pretty sure I ve generated less Mod alerts than you.

Davicus wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:Davicus, hard to put much stock in what you say - you generate as many mod alerts as anyone I've ever seen on Dakka.

Well, it looks like I m not the only one who thinks that way And I don't see how my record has anything to do with my ability to interpret Black Blow Fly? I think you are the one who has a problem here :-) And I m pretty sure I ve generated less Mod alerts than you.

*yawn*

If you wish to continue the pettiness crusade, take it to private chat with me - no need for you to pollute a thread about a GT that you're not attending.

Yeah tat's right, I was about yo yawn.
Isnt the forum a place for people to express their opinion? Expressing my opinion that you are being a jerk and being overly sensitive to certain comments isnt a pollution at all.
But if you are just being an obstinate troll and think everyone else is wrong and you are right, I can understand.

I can now see why you are a DCM. Contributing "noise" to the forum sure qualifies you for DCM.

In other news, prize support due to increasing sponsorship has pushed our prize "totals" counting swag bags past the 4.5k/5k marks.

Modquisition on:

Panama, Davicus, and Dash stop the fighting in this thread or your accounts will be reviewed for trolling.
Posts after this public warning that continue this spat will be considered trolling.

Fantasy Players Update if I haven't made it here yet ...

We'll be digesting rapidly, and utilizing, 8th edition rules.

We'll be relaxing painting and wysiwyg requirements to a reasonable degree to accommodate this.

Also, any Fantasy player who registers PRIOR to preview copies hitting the shelves is welcome to a full refund if it turns out they can't adjust in time.

Plus, to bump the whacky argument and moderation out of the way - prize totals have closed in on $5k with swag bags and sponsorships, and probably growing ... sign up and get a piece for yourselves ... most of it will go to everyone, not just the smaller # of people who "win" trophies.



For those following Whiskey & 40k tourney chat, and tournament development, there will be two 8 on the 8th's going on (our nationwide open primer tourney day), including one participated in by Stelek of YTTH (in)famy (no opinion here on him, just a fact I know might interest some). Data tracking them will be up on http://whiskey40k.com and I'll cross link it here, for those who'd like to see how the primer missions worked "in action" and any changes/adjustments made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hotel Information near site, since we have a fair number of people traveling: http://www.dullesexpo.com/guestinfo/hotelinfo/index.htm

Please let me know if you are intending on staying at the Holiday Inn on-site. If enough people do, I may be able to reduce the rates you actually pay on arrival (though it's at a relatively affordable level right off the bat).

MVBrandt wrote:prize totals have closed in on $5k with swag bags and sponsorships, and probably growing ... sign up and get a piece for yourselves ... most of it will go to everyone, not just the smaller # of people who "win" trophies.

Wow; that's quite impressive. Looks like it'll be a great tournament. Pity it's in a malarial swamp in the middle of August, some 3000 miles away; as-is, I don't think I can fit it into the schedule this year.

Good luck, and I'm looking forward to the tournament reports after the fact!

Careful what you say, that's the malarial swamp I was born and raised in!



It's not actually that bad either; last year we ran a 32-person OUTDOOR tournament for charity in August ... no collapses

Yes, I had a wonderful time at the outdoor tourney... it was a unique and fun experience . My wife even played some baseball with people in the park nearby at one point!

And having it in the daytime in summer means the mosquitos don't really come out until after you're done

If anyone who trolls Dakka is attending / planning on attending and is an officer in or a part of a gaming club, let me know via PM.


Glad you had fun at the Outdoor Tournament last year, man! I think that in the future we'll probably add an outdoor component to a larger multi-day convention style format, presuming things continue on the up and up ... so the outdoor tourney WILL eventually return

MVBrandt wrote: Careful what you say, that's the malarial swamp I was born and raised in !

That explains a lot.......

MVBrandt wrote:If anyone who trolls Dakka is attending / planning on attending and is an officer in or a part of a gaming club, let me know via PM.

I think you're already hooked into the IFL well enough. I know there are a few of us attending

Where there aer swamps there are gators. Well at least down south anyways & they love to aet fat trolles.

G

Gators are an animal I actually enjoyed working with. These days, you a Floridian should know, you find 'em plenty of places besides just swamps!

You comin' up to the Open, Fly?

I am hoping to for sure! Will know next week.

: )

For those who would like to keep track of mission development, first round overviews, final results, and first round pics from our 8 on the 8th stress test are up at http://whiskey40k.com

i can wait Mike Kevin and I are talking i'll see him tommorow.

Your not gonna get an accurate representation of how the scenarios affect different armies if you test w/ 6/8 marine lists and 4 of those being BA's . It's still a good start but I hope elsewhere someone ran it that had something other than BA's in it.

I couldn't agree more haha! There've actually been people playtesting the scenarios worldwide, both in "8 on 8th" tournament set-ups, and in one-off matches with people, plus we do a lot of proxytesting with a wide variety of builds.

If there are any particular lists you want run through the ringer, also, but don't have the time / ability to line up opponents yourself for it, let me know and I'll plug it through a proxygame (or, an "actual model" game, as we have a lot).

Thanks for the continued input, Hulk ... and yeah, we had a lot of MEQ

Well - if Dark Eldar make it out before August, I'll be playing them. I'm hoping they just trounce all over MEQ.

Else it will probably be Empire in Fantasy... Or I'll rock my wolves, who knows really.

I am actually going to be on the east Coast during this event and was looking to attend. I agree with Blackmoor and Hulksmash that the elimination of KP's makes 5-man BA squads in Razorbacks jump for joy. This really skews the flavor of the army lists. I see it has alread happened with the preponderence of small troop squads in transports from all the SW and BA players at the 8-man event. If that's the scene you want to promote, then by all means go for it. But the overall competiveness of the event will suffer, IMO, as the core rules are changed to favor certain 'net lists' who have never been able to win large events in the past.

Interestingly, the winner of the event was running an 8-man sternguard squad on foot w/ a lot of combi-meltas, a 10-man jump pack assault squad, and only a handful of the 5-man squads in rhinos (not razorbacks). His kill point total was lower than a number of lists that have won recent major GT's.

That said, we haven't ruled out kill points ... simply utilized VP as the "seek and destroy" mission type for the primer ... wouldn't do us a lot of fair good to be utilizing the "final" format this far in advance, for those with more time to gain an unfair experience advantage with the *actual* missions. Those will not be released until much, MUCH closer to the day of the actual event.

DD - thanks for the input, and I hope you'll offer more if any more crosses your mind. Let me know if I can help you regarding planning / attending the Open, especially if you're still planning on attending.


- Mike

PS - as an aside and in practice, 5-man BA squads in Razorbacks perform much more poorly than the rhino variants, but this isn't really a tactics thread. Consider the value in practice (in today's current mech-heavy environment) of a razorback with two meltaguns vs. a razorback with a heavy flamer. In the razorback scenario, if the BA want to pop a vehicle, they have to get out and expose themselves ... which is a far riskier maneuver than staying in their rhino, hatch double tapping infernus+melta or 2xmelta, and forcing the opponent to pry them out of their vehicle in return. If only they were like immos, with a fire point!

Excellent point about the difference between Rhino's and Razorbacks with a 5-man squad. You are spot on with that tactic.

I assume that you will be overrulling the Dark Eldar special rule for Scenario: Slave Raid?

Other questions...

How do Smoke Breaks work?

Dice restrictions?

Ruler/Tape/LoS Lazer/Template restrictions?

Terrain breakdown?

Codex: Catachans?

Codex: Chaos? (Not CSM or CD, the 2nd Edition Codex: Chaos)

Great questions!

1) Yes, overruling the DE special rule for Scenario: Slave Raid

2) There'll be solid time in between every round for you to take breaks. In regard to smoke breaks during games ... that's up to you and your opponent.

3) We pondered and to a degree still ponder the notion of assigning dice, but will probably not. We'll be utilizing a more standard dice policy - using your opponent's dice if desired, and calling a judge for more serious issues.

4) I don't know if we'll have many restrictions on these - would you like to suggest any that you've encountered as a major issue? People will naturally be required to bring their own.

5) The terrain is going to be mega clear, and standardized across tables to as straightforward a degree as we can pull off - and I think we will. You should anticipate "fair" terrain regardless of the table you're on, so that you cannot claim, gain, or bemoan advantages based purely upon what side you set up on, or what table you wound up at.

6) No Codex: Catachans, or Codex: Chaos

Keep 'em firing, and feel free to back and forth - up for and always inviting questions, feedback, etc. It wouldn't be a great tournament if we lived inside a box!

Tips for the Open mission format ...

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2010/05/tips-and-tricks-for-scoring-well-nova.html

We're also proud to add The Warstore to our list of sponsors. Their contributions should be found in everybody's swag bags, and in a few extra prizes on top of that!

I think I've asked you this in private, but for more open discussion:

How are the Valkyrie/Vendetta models to be handled? What constitues the hull for the purposes of blast markers? What happens when they are wrecked/immoblized and a model is under the wing? Where are the access points for the models base? etc.etc.

Hopefully the Tyranid FAQ will clear up some of the other major questions I had.

darwinn69 wrote:I think I've asked you this in private, but for more open discussion:

How are the Valkyrie/Vendetta models to be handled? What constitues the hull for the purposes of blast markers? What happens when they are wrecked/immoblized and a model is under the wing? Where are the access points for the models base? etc.etc.

Hopefully the Tyranid FAQ will clear up some of the other major questions I had.

What Tyranid FAQ is that? o.O

I believe he's implying the Tyranid FAQ *when* it comes out, haha.

Still tweaking FAQ answers, but leaning toward last year's / some of the other regional rulings on the Vendetta/Valk, which is to use its base for contesting, disembarking, embarking, "center" of blast markers (so blast hits the ven/valk if it touches anywhere, but hole is over if over base), etc. Would use all pieces/parts of it for non-blast los/range shooting.

That's one of those ones not fully answered yet - workin' on the FAQ behind the scenes, as it's still got a ways to go.

Shameless bump, and reminder that many of the Dakka-trollers who are "thinking" of attending for 40k but wanted me to heads them up when things started to get much closer to full ... well, ding! This is my first response to your e-mails.

Lookin' for a strong, competitive event of an arguably higher evaluative caliber than ard boyz? Sign up.

Lookin' for a serious hobby event with vegas quals to great artists with hearts of gold? Sign up.

Yup, both.

How strict is your WYSIWYG

For example, I have a squad of thousand sons, one of the base guys is holding a black book with a Tzeentch bit on it (the signature 'S' like thingy) would this count as a Mark of Tzeentch for you guys or would you be like "thats modeling for the advantage.... Disqualified!"

That kind of marginal thing would probably be fine by us ... and as you're probably aware, it would be pretty intensely douchey for an opponent to disapprove.

Bump and update - 40k spots are getting perilously close to full (I know I've said this a few times, but each time a few people sign up it seems "closer" ... and pushing more on the door of "do we open more spots? errr....")

Passed along notes from questions around the interweb ...

1) There's an increasing probability that we'll have catering included at the event (basic food and bev) - This would be included in your $50 reg fee, you won't have to buy it
2) We the organizers make / save $0 on the event. Every penny goes to one of four things ...

- Venue fees
- Catering (if we go with it)
- Prize support (which is why we're almost $6k+ now)
- Charity (any residual cash that didn't get used for prizes or catering ... most probable support is breast cancer)

Back from a week of AFK, updating that Fantasy has started to fill up at a lil faster rate (still expect that to boom post-8th-previews and not pre-), and 40k is much closer to "Full" ... about 15 spots left, so please let me know if you're "Close" to committing but not quite there yet. I can to a limited degree maintain spot openings for people traveling and needing time to figure out travel plans.

Upcoming "FAQ" Day -

We'll be spending an entire weekend at some point in the next few weekends (probably the one after next, will nail it down soon) getting together with some solid minds and plowing through both the Fantasy rulebook and 40k in general putting together a detailed FAQ for the tournament.

In continued pursuit of openness and garnering global input, anyone from Dakka who would like to participate remotely or otherwise should let me know.

More importantly, for those who can carry on a discussion civilly, we will be permitting people to send us one-off arguments making their point on key rules debates, which we'll post up during the day.

So, the way it will work is, as we come to some "big" question, i.e. Doom of Malantai vs. guys in vehicles (don't start it here haha), we'll post it up on a live forum feed at a predetermined location, and lock the thread. People will be able to e-mail me their "point" in detail with rules quotes / etc., and we'll take that into consideration / discussion. We won't be doing it on a forum, to prevent "arguments." I'll probably end up posting everyone's detailed argument on the whiskey40k blog or elsewhere to ensure ethical management of everyone's response (anyone whose response doesn't get posted/given fair treatment can point out the error / unethical act).

We'll also obviously troll the numerous major forums and rules debates out there on the web for data on each "big" question as well, look at other well-known FAQs, yatta yatta.

As an aside, we're adding a "party" style Friday pre-tourney night, with some open and planned gaming, a couple door prizes, etc., at a more laid back location. Anyone traveling especially to the tourney should let me know in advance, as we'd like to make sure those expending a great deal of money getting to the event have as much opportunity to game as possible.

- Mike

I would love to help, But i cant till the 19th is that ok Mike?

It'll almost assuredly be ON the 19th, Scooter

So that'd be perfect.

Good It will be fun

Looking to meet new people? Fun fact of the day ...

We have people attending and paid from the following places:

Maryland
Virginia
Pennsylvania
New York
New Jersey
Wisconsin
California
South Carolina
North Carolina
Florida
Tennessee
Washington, DC
Rhode Island
Ontario, Canada

and we have people asking me to reserve spots so they can finish travel arrangements from Utah and Georgia.


so sign up ... it's quite the (inter)national affair!

I am so torn on going to this... I want to sign up, spaces running out, but I don't know if I'll have the models ready by then!

If there's anything I can do to expedite your decision making process, let me know - happy to make time for any potential attendee.

And I think we just recruited Deadshane to the cause!

See you there buddy!

Indeed, if I can squeeze in I'll prolly be there. Luckily, I've got the weekend off from work and this tournament is so close to me I've almost NO excuse NOT to be there.

Unfortunatly, I have to wait until the 15th to sign up....so if you fill up before then I'll be SOL. (any chance of adding spots at a later date?)

The format/matchings sounds like a great way to have the BEST players at the top of the heap. I'm very interested to see how this turns out.

You can have the spot he was saving for me Deadshane

I won't be able to attend after all unfortunately. Just couldn't get the money together to get across the country for this one sadly.

Yea, much easier for me.

Chantilly is just a hop, skip, and a d6 fleet roll from where I live.

Like I said, I hardly have any excuse NOT to go.

I really wish there was some official words on if/when DE are supposed to get their new dex (as of now, rumors I'm hearing are for Aug/Sept) if the date is gonna be early august... then I'd take my space pirates, if it will be sept I'd have to find someway to make my Chaos boys more competitive (see my sig... 7k points of thousand sons) which would probably mean buying a few good boxes to make some big pink meanies with whips and some green fatkids to run as troops... Or I could just play for fun and take my Thousand Ones (without the ambition of winning anytime soon)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I really wish there was some official words on if/when DE are supposed to get their new dex (as of now, rumors I'm hearing are for Aug/Sept) if the date is gonna be early august... then I'd take my space pirates, if it will be sept I'd have to find someway to make my Chaos boys more competitive (see my sig... 7k points of thousand sons) which would probably mean buying a few good boxes to make some big pink meanies with whips and some green fatkids to run as troops... Or I could just play for fun and take my Thousand Ones (without the ambition of winning anytime soon)

It won't be September - the 3 month releases fall in August & October. Given the WHFB release, and the second wave of Daemons, the August 40k slot looks like it might be skipped. I'd plan on Chaos, were I you.

Always a tough question, regarding what army to take to a tournament.

I suppose it's at least worth noting that the Renaissance Man award does not require you to win all of your games, and awards one of the 2 vegas tickets.

Also, we'll be chucking out random prize draws throughout the day, and your chance to win one is inversely proportional to your current record. Players still competing for Top General prizes/awards are far less likely to win a random prize draw than those who have lost multiple games.

- Mike

MVBrandt wrote: Players still competing for Top General prizes/awards are far less likely to win a random prize draw than those who have lost multiple games.
- Mike

That doesn't sound to 'random' ;p More like 'predetermined probability'.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

MVBrandt wrote: Players still competing for Top General prizes/awards are far less likely to win a random prize draw than those who have lost multiple games.
- Mike

That doesn't sound to 'random' ;p More like 'predetermined probability'.

No, you can have a weighted random drawing. At a guess, everyone starts with one entry in the raffle. For every game you LOSE, you get another entry in the raffle.

That one.

Just throwing this out there to everyone else - I'd be happy to sell my raffle ticket(singular) for Captain Morgan!

Dashofpepper wrote:Just throwing this out there to everyone else - I'd be happy to sell my raffle ticket(singular) for Captain Morgan!

I might just buy a ticket to 1v1 you during free time at the event ;P looking forward to facing the pink horde!

Well, Dash and really anyone else is welcome to attend Friday the night before the event ... probably at my locale, we'll be having brews, live podcastery, or at least podcastery, and "celeb" matches between well known internet personas, plus pick-up gaming as table space allows.

Do I qualify as A "well known internet persona"? :-)

I'll be there......

GG

I'll wager you could definitely make the case

Where are you comin' from GG?

South West VA. (Marion)

I transfered out here from Central Florida (Orlando) a few years back.
GG

Well I'll happily enjoy an evening of 40(oz)K or Drunk-hammer if all is well. I'm hardly a celeb but I would enjoy a match against the orks of legend! (Could also bring excess steaks for cookout if the opportunity arose)

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Well I'll happily enjoy an evening of 40(oz)K or Drunk-hammer if all is well. I'm hardly a celeb but I would enjoy a match against the orks of legend! (Could also bring excess steaks for cookout if the opportunity arose)

Ohhhh steaks!!! mmmmmmmmm


GG

F-it Registration confirmed.

Seasons don't fear the reaper, nor do the wind, nor the (thousand) s(o)ns nor the rain!

See you all at the open (preferably the friday beforehand!

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:F-it Registration confirmed.

Seasons don't fear the reaper, nor do the wind, nor the (thousand) s(o)ns nor the rain!

See you all at the open (preferably the friday beforehand!

Don't forget the meat!!!

GG

Dis' mek tek aint woiken fer mi boyz! Durn 'umie goffie 'omputorz bloked mi sites!

If I had known about this earlier, I probably would have signed up and started painting!

What's a guy to do but advertise it months in advance!

Nothing lights a fire under a painter's butt like signing up for an event

A note to Fantasy dwellers - we probably will NOT require fully painted, with the obvious caveats about how that will impact your score for best painted, best army, and overall/renaissance man.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:If I had known about this earlier, I probably would have signed up and started painting!

Dude, you have TWO MONTHS. Plenty of time!

Meh, you don't know the half of it, I would probably want to re-purchase some units, just to have some co-ordination going...

I will see if I can attend, how many spots are open, I might get a group thing going...

Around a dozen. I say around b/c we are attempting to hold a couple of spots for people that need to organize travel to attend, but those may vaporize if we sell the dozen.

I can't promise that I'll open more 40k slots going forward, but the lower sign-up total in fantasy may lead to that in some capacity. Still, effectively, there's about 12-16 slots left.

I purchased a 40k ticket, got purchase number 72... does that mean I didn't make the cut?

You're fine - the ticket numbers don't mean anything. Once it's full, it'll tell you we're out of stock ... that said, check your pm!

Wait... if you have over 64 40k players, how is that going to work?

It most likely isn't, which is why we won't most likely go over 64.

The numbers for ticket sign-ups don't matter, and I can't figure out where they are generated from - we're not over 64 x 40k at present.

Ahh, well, I hope I can sort things out before they're all sold out!

PM sent

generalgrog wrote:Do I qualify as A "well known internet persona"? :-)

I'll be there......

GG

Do I count?

I'll be there if the woman lets me off for a weekend. I'll be sure to bring a Guinness for you and I if I can come.

The only thing I don't like is that VPs are being used... I really hate VPs... (but apparently I am the only one)

Everyone will be able to come, natch ... no preferential attendance treatment

More deets in the nearish future.

I'll be there providing I can work out the kinks as well, moving back to Silverspring MD a week or two prior to that.

If so, I'll try to make it to the Friday thing and bring a couple good beers, unlike frgsinwntr's dirty guiness.

Blech

targetawg wrote:I'll be there providing I can work out the kinks as well, moving back to Silverspring MD a week or two prior to that.

If so, I'll try to make it to the Friday thing and bring a couple good beers, unlike frgsinwntr's dirty guiness.

Blech

You know you want the Irish water of life : )

Of course... are you bringing your dirty IG Andrew?

Of course! Providing I can work out the finances/moving arrangements so they don't interfere with the event.

Plus what else would I bring to a competitive event? My necrons, eldar or grey knights?

Psh Posh. The Armored Company rolls on. Its not my fault the new book was so wondiferous that everyone else learned my obsession with tanks-a-plenty.

@frgsinwntr

I hate VP's too! But it seems that a lot of people just don't like KP's. People call them unbalanced which they can be if looked at in single missions. However over the course of a tourney they are a balancer since mech became so much better this edition. But MVB and I have had that discussion

Wish I could have made it though. Would have been a blast. I'd have had to take my Wolves to show you guys how we do it on the west coast

Hulksmash wrote:@frgsinwntr

I hate VP's too! But it seems that a lot of people just don't like KP's. People call them unbalanced which they can be if looked at in single missions. However over the course of a tourney they are a balancer since mech became so much better this edition. But MVB and I have had that discussion

Wish I could have made it though. Would have been a blast. I'd have had to take my Wolves to show you guys how we do it on the west coast

I'm glad to know I am not the only one that thinks about events as a whole ;p

frgs are you gonna be there?

GG

Looks like I'm in there like swimwear!

GF and I did the finances and they include a trip for 3 (her, my son, and me to Chantilly for a weekend GTFO of the house for the weekend!)

I'm killin' alla you fargin iceholes...you bastages!

Deadshane1 wrote:Looks like I'm in there like swimwear!

No, Emperor protects!!

Ack, VP vs KP again!

More to come on this ...

For what it's worth, we actually based our decision upon its impact across a single event, vs. a league or series of events.

VPs are fine, KPs just discourage GEQ(Other then Guard <ironically> and some eldar lists) far too much to even merit a realistic tourny, they also leave for some dramatically unfair tourny results. VPs even the playing field, alot, I just think its funny how a thousand sons player could be fine with VP while most of the w(h)in(e)ners are running 5th edition dexs that do fine in either KP or VP...

The "dramatically unfair" results would be a KP game where you have 4 people, Joe shmo, Bob Mason, Myself and Dash.

Dash and his orks are playing me and my 1ksons in a KP game. Me being 1ksons means in 2k points Im taking about 7 kps, he as orks is taking anywhere from 10-15, lets say 12 for good measure. (This means I can still beat him by a significant amount even if he kills me down to my last killpoint)

Joe brings Dark Eldar to Bobs Blood Angels, and its looking like Joe (in 2k points) has 20 kps, bob Has 9.

Dash loses half his list, but in the end tables me, taking 7 kps (net gaining 1 if you count his losses)

Bob basically breaks even with Joe, both losing half their army, so bob wins by with total 10kps (net gaining 6 if you count his losses)

Dash clearly had a better result in his game against me, but as of now, Bob has a higher standing due solely to the luck of his match up drawing...

In VPs, both games are 2k pts vs 2k pts, so there is much less room for such dramatically different(and in many cases, contradicting) results.

@Daemon

They don't limit GEQ. The only army left that bleeds KP's like crazy is Tau. Everyone else gives out how many they give out. Shep actually made an excellent statement the other day that boils down to:

If you only have 7 units and I have 19. Well your 7 units aren't going to be able to kill many units per turn. And each loss hurts your abilities greatly where each loss doesn't decrease his combat effectiveness.

KP's are a balancer. They are part of the rules in the main book. I play Wolves with 17 KP's and have to grit my teeth everytime I see a tourney without KP's because KP's give my oponents a chance against my style of build. Same goes with DE.

I realize a lot of gamers out there don't like them or find them "unfair" but it is part of 5th edition. They do balance well over the course a tournament. It's like not having DoW deployment which a lot of people don't like but it's pretty neccessary to balancing. VP's are the past and it's time to move on.

@ Hulksmash

I am also a big advocate of using kps versus vps. I agree with your points here.

G

The problem w/ KP in a tournament setting is precisely the fact that they don't balance over the course of it.

It is just as likely for - unless you are treating kp like some form of rudimentary composition - someone with low KP to play someone with even lower as it is for someone with high KP to play someone with even higher.

Your point is to a T the problem Hulk - you play a 17 KP wolf army. You aren't changing your army list to 5 or 10 in order to protect yourself from the eventuality of a KP mission. Instead, you play what you play.

Over the course of a league or season (which we've run before), KP makes a lot of sense, b/c you are guaranteed to run up against each player in the league on multiple occasions, which means you're going to have to deal with KP missions - it "balances" in this regard. Unfortunately, in a tournament setting where it's one of the missions but not always the win condition, you're faced with the problem of terrifically poor imbalance due to "luck of the draw." One person with a high KP army faces another high KP army in that particular round, while one person with a high KP army faces a very low KP army in the same round.

Our intent at the Open is not to replicate the 40k rulebook ... if we were, if you went with the "main rulebook" as gospel, you'd simply random dice every round on every table ... who cares about consistency across the tables and who has to play what mission ... army's gotta be ready to play each! Tournament settings are too short in terms of the number of match-ups and your odds of facing "unfavorable" ones for it to be fair unless each player is given equal opportunity to score off his opponents what his opponents can score off him in any given mission.

To wit, in a 2,000 point tournament, *if* we utilize a seek and destroy mission at all as one of the three, everyone can score 2,000 points off each other.

KP are excellent in a longer-term format. In a tournament they are the very fabric of "unfair," for the pure reason that luck of the draw renders the "difficulty" of matches across all tables EXTREMELY variable based purely upon draw, and not player skill. For these same reasons we've been pondering the # of objectives for the objective goal, and other "fairness" issues.

It remains the fact that as soon as one mech guard goes up against a 20 kill point opponent while the mech guard at the table next to him goes up against a 10 kill point opponent ... the very inclusion of that mission type has rendered the tournament "unfair." Similarly, the very second that an 8 kp army faces a 6 kp army while next to him his buddy with 8 kp is facing a 25 kp army ... unfairness abounds.

5th edition is not purely defined by its "basic" missions ... you don't see even GW itself, or really any tournament, utilizing "book missions" in their pure and simple state. Since our goal for the Open is to avoid - where possible - "luck of the draw" screwing up the results ... it's hard for us to buckle to KP.

An important thing to note is that I've used them before in every tournament and league I've run to date ... and across hundreds of games recorded, there hasn't been a noticeable variance between vp totals and winners in KP missions, either ... generally, the better player wins regardless. So if we can avoid unfairness in luck of the draw while not materially altering the result ... it's a win/win. Not to say we don't take the points of view of all sides seriously ... again, we've used KP in the past ... so it's hardly the expression of TO bias, as I hope it's clear by now that's not how I operate in terms of organizational decisions.

One thing that is positive is the context of this conversation to date, however - while there have been both sides presented throughout, neither side has gotten itself all in a tizzy over it ... a rarity on forums these days.


PS Hulk - it's a shame you can't make it ... anything I can do to help, let me know; I know there were some folks that perked up at hearing of your possible attendance from across country ... as many have perked up over the possible attendance of some of the other "well knowns" coming.

Just added Ohio to the list of states, btw ...

@ Brandt

5ed was specifically designed for kps, vps should be used as a tie breaker only.

G

Interesting that they would spefically tailor an entire edition towards one of 3 potential gametypes, especially when they also go on to mention that Victory Points may (and should) be used in all three of those game types...

Black Blow Fly wrote:@ Brandt

5ed was specifically designed for kps, vps should be used as a tie breaker only.

G

That's of course not true ... as much as it would be true to say that 5ed was specifically designed for the draw mission.

As I mentioned on the WC forums, I appreciate and consider strongly any amount of in-depth analysis/critique/etc. - if the case is made beyond a reasonable doubt that the above mentioned "luck of the draw" problem is irrelevant in terms of how KP operates ... fantastic! Simply asserting that the entirety of an edition was built specifically for one of three possible missions, the other two of which completely disregard it ... is a little excessive, no?

As also mentioned, we're not doing "bookhammer" here ... in fact, nobody does at the tournament level, and rightly so - including GW. We're - to our best ability - attempting to establish a balanced, fair tournament approach. I'd also like to see data where KP as a mission possible actually deters people / balances the game. Example: we once ran a 4-round tournament where you rolled book missions every round (for serious) ... 32 players, wide variance of list build. Despite facing off against a 12 kp fatecrusher army during his KP mission, the winner of that tournament was a 24 kill point ork army. You can see similarities across the depth and breadth of the tournament results field ... numerous wins by high kp armies in tournaments utilizing kp, numerous wins by similar in tournaments that don't ... numerous wins by low kp armies in both tourneys that do and don't use them. What you don't see is the subtlety of situations where legitimate contenders with both low and high kp lists are screwed on score/battlepoints/win condition by extreme wide variance KP match-ups for that "one" kp round. That it doesn't screw "everyone" is not the issue, as it were.

Appreciate continued deep analysis/discussion ... not so eager for one-liner assertions, but to each their own.

- Mike

PS - B/GBF, you can call me Mike, as opposed to Brandt, if you'd like ... peers here

Double post....Hate that!

Hulk - not a problem at all. You've presented legitimate discussion on the subject ... I'd like to think we both have. I'm not the type to hate on a guy for civilly not taking the same exact position as me

And def' bummed you can't make it out there. Nonetheless, you let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

- Mike

MVBrandt wrote:KP are excellent in a longer-term format. In a tournament they are the very fabric of "unfair," for the pure reason that luck of the draw renders the "difficulty" of matches across all tables EXTREMELY variable based purely upon draw, and not player skill. For these same reasons we've been pondering the # of objectives for the objective goal, and other "fairness" issues.

It remains the fact that as soon as one mech guard goes up against a 20 kill point opponent while the mech guard at the table next to him goes up against a 10 kill point opponent ... the very inclusion of that mission type has rendered the tournament "unfair." Similarly, the very second that an 8 kp army faces a 6 kp army while next to him his buddy with 8 kp is facing a 25 kp army ... unfairness abounds.

You can construct this same argument for every mission type - EVERY tournament game is heavily matchup dependent. My Tyranids are going to work a lot harder to manage a win in a 5 objective mission against ninja Mech'dar, as opposed to an all-terminator army w/2 units of scouts for scoring units. Does that mean the only "fair" mission is VPs, since there are always the same number available? What if you run into a VP-denial army (Mech'dar again)?

5th edition is not purely defined by its "basic" missions ... you don't see even GW itself, or really any tournament, utilizing "book missions" in their pure and simple state.

This is a separate separation issue, since almost no one has the time to let pure win/loss records resolve to a single winner in any tournament larger than 32 people (5 rounds).

An important thing to note is that I've used them before in every tournament and league I've run to date ... and across hundreds of games recorded, there hasn't been a noticeable variance between vp totals and winners in KP missions, either ... generally, the better player wins regardless. So if we can avoid unfairness in luck of the draw while not materially altering the result ... it's a win/win. Not to say we don't take the points of view of all sides seriously ... again, we've used KP in the past ... so it's hardly the expression of TO bias, as I hope it's clear by now that's not how I operate in terms of organizational decisions.

This is actually at odds with my experiences - every tournament I've attended recently has had at least 10% of the KP games end where the "winner" has significantly fewer VPs remaining. Part of that is the mission - if a 300+ pt unit can kill 2 35 pt Rhinos, I'm willing to make that trade.

I'll chip $100 into Hulksmash's plane ticket - anyone else wanna help?

I'm planning on coming to this tournament, but just a few questions after checking over the rules packet;

1) I see primary, secondary, and tertiary goals. Its my understanding that if you achieve the primary, the secondary and tertiary goals don't matter at all. This seems odd to me, as often the primary is worth x points, the secondary is y, and the tertiary is worth z... x,y, and z at increasingly lower values.

2) For objective placement, is there any stipulation on how high in a building the objective can be placed? i'm planning on bringing a biker army. If its possible for objectives to be on the 3rd floor of buildings, I'm probably going to have to re-think what army i'm bringing.

1. They're used to determine pairings/rankings in rounds 2, 3, and 4.

Here's snippage from our club forum where Mike explained it to us:
To the ratings, we do not use "battle points." So you do not accrue points by winning/losing, or ... really, anything. Instead, you maintain a rating based upon your performance across the breadth of the tournament.

This rating is determined by the equation:

Win % x 10 + Goal 1 % + Goal 2 % + Goal 3 %

Basically, that means if you are undefeated your rating will be between 10.0-13.xx. (in case you happen to table everyone, score everything, and face some tervigon tyranid who creates more vp for you to kill)
If you are 3-1 at the end of the day, your rating will be between 7.5-10.5.
If you are 2-2, your rating will be between 5.0-8.0.
If you are 1-3, your rating will be between 2.5-5.5.
If you are 0-4, your rating will be between 0-3.0.

2. Not sure, but maybe the 'ignore height' bit in the primer mission objective rules covers this.....?

yea, I was under the impression the "ignore height" remark meant that if I make a biker sergeant 12" tall, he can't claim a 3rd story objective... its measured horizontally. not sure about that.

and good to know that secondaries count for SOMETHING other than bragging rights.

Dashofpepper wrote:I'll chip $100 into Hulksmash's plane ticket - anyone else wanna help?

he can stay at my place to avoid a hotel room (I could probably accomdate a few other trustworthies looking to save $ as well). I live in Vienna, a 15-20 min drive to the expo center and I have a big car that I can use (I personally own a 1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse with 10pt Dirge Casters/Torture amps installed, but I have access to 2 SUVs and a Land Raider ((Old ass Van)))

Here, more snippage explaining the pairings. The rankings are basically determined by your success percentage of all three goals.

64 ---> 32 x 1-0, 32 x 0-1
32 x 1-0 = #1 vs #32
32 x 0-1 = #33 vs #64

This leads to
16 x 2-0
32 x 1-1
16 x 0-2

#1 plays #16
#17 plays #48
#48 plays #64

This leads to
8 x 3-0
24 x 2-1
24 x 1-2
8 x 0-3

#1 plays #8

Since all those with a loss are in their "final round" barring an undefeated drop out for Day 2, the rest of the brackets now go Swiss to improve final round competition across all levels (no sense the bottom guy getting bludgeoned again, etc.)

#9 plays #10
#33 plays #34
#56 plays #57

just for a clarification (i'm sleepy and all your fancy numbers confuse me)

a guy who wins all 5 games will get first, even if he looses all secondary and tertiary missions, over a guy who wins 4 of 5 games, who wins all secondary and tertiary missions.

Awwww.....Thanks Dash and Daemon You guys are gonna make me blush!

Honersstodnt wrote:just for a clarification (i'm sleepy and all your fancy numbers confuse me)

a guy who wins all 5 games will get first, even if he looses all secondary and tertiary missions, over a guy who wins 4 of 5 games, who wins all secondary and tertiary missions.

Four games, but yeah, that's my understanding. Mike does point out that it is theoretically possible for a 3-1 player to rank higher than a 4-0 player tho.

Here's the link to the posts on our forum so you can read it in it's entirety:

http://www.ironfistleague.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2849

Don, thanks for the question answerings ...

It's important to note that this is NOT like your typical tournament with primary, secondary, and tertiary "missions," where each one is a relevant and valid goal.

Instead, there are basically three missions, but they are always "scoreable" in every round ... in each round there's only a single true win condition, but if you tie on it, you break that tie with the 2ndary, tertiary for that round, and eventually simple VP if everything else ties.

So ... don't think of it like your usual battle point tourney where there are "three missions" per round. That aside, remember that best overall is not stringently tied to record (2-2, 3-1 could win it, in theory, if they score well on their appearance / sports scores, since each is equal in value to record). The only thing stringently tied to record is the best general equivalent, we call it Tournament Champion, and that's the 6-0 winner of the 2nd day's Final Four.

Correction. I'm gonna be making it afterall. Ebay is our good friend. I'm also gonna have some stuff up in the Swap Shop soon for sale. So I'll see all you east coasters soon!

excellent... just remember though, when I defeat my enemies, I rip out and eat their hearts... to gain their courage.

their rich, tasty courage.

as an aside, any ruling on the "height" of objectives?

@ Hulksmash - Born and raised in OC myself. Would you mind bringing me some Carne Asada? =P

Good Mexican is hard to find out here =(

Ah, yes ...

I'll clarify that in the final rules packet, suffice to say that terrain will be pretty uniform across tables and deployment zones to ensure fairness. That said, there's only so much I can make the terrain "identical," so to prevent shenanigans or unfairness, objectives on higher "levels" of terrain will be captured purely based on horizontal distance.

Probably unnecessary to state, and it'll be clarified / foolproofed in the final packet.

Steve your going? this is gonna be fun

Great to hear you are gonna make it Hulk, I might check the swap shop to ninja some good deals to help you on your way!

Btw just so everyone knows, as stated, im bringing thousand sons to the table for this event. Any and all pity is welcome

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:Great to hear you are gonna make it Hulk, I might check the swap shop to ninja some good deals to help you on your way!

Btw just so everyone knows, as stated, im bringing thousand sons to the table for this event. Any and all pity is welcome

I hope to see you round 5 or 6.

My only real fears are good BA/Eldar/ IG(duh) players*. Most other lists, especially Vanilla marines (even Salamanders) I can swallow turn 3.

My 1ksons beat Khorn Daemons in melee ON THE CHARGE (thats right, I struck at Init 1, wanna fight about it?).

~~~Edit~~~~
* And obviously... the Pink Orkz!

Well damn if Hulksmash is going maybe I will have to try and adjust my work schedule so I can make it out!

G

Hrmm, this thread gives me an idea...


I am not going to be making it either. I am a bit strapped for cash.


:p

No, Timmah. Not that easy. You're not getting your registration back!

It wasn't any largess Timmah. It was realizing how much still boxed and unbuilt stuff I have around the house. I should have a plane tickets worth of stuff hanging around

Hte moar hte merrier.

G

The help Hulksmash make it to the NovaOpen sale is up in the swapshop. Have a look guys!

I have everything I need currently for 40k but I would be glad to buy you a beer and chat with you there.

: )

G

I was obviously trying to get $100 outa Dash, not get my registration fee back.

@BBF

Sounds good.

@Timmah

It's always worth a shot

I broke down and signed up/paid as well. So I'll see you folks there.

Timmah wrote:I was obviously trying to get $100 outa Dash

Why not just play him for the 100$ at the event?

I figured that I would be playing him Fast and Furious style, aka for pink slips (to our cars, not armies. I would never risk my 1ksons like that!)

Honersstodnt wrote:excellent... just remember though, when I defeat my enemies, I rip out and eat their hearts... to gain their courage.

their rich, tasty courage.

But.... But.... I'm just cowardly IG............. No courage here. Move along.

I will be showing up still not sure what level of cheese to bring. Mildly choking or REALLY offensive.

I would totally lay down money on a game. I'd try doing it more often, but I don't think I'd have any takers.

OK I will just have "THAT GUY" on my name tag.

Dashofpepper wrote:I would totally lay down money on a game. I'd try doing it more often, but I don't think I'd have any takers.

6cent Ihop game challenge issued!

6cent IHOP challenge?

I don't know what that is. :(

You betting six cents on our fight? 6 cents towards the other's IHOP bill? An IHOP meal?

Mmmmmm.....I hop

Figured I would copy this here, but don't want to retype the whole thing (or copy & paste.... ok, really I'm just trying to drive traffic, sry - but it is funny, I promise), so here's a link:

NOVA Open funnies

That is funny as all hell Stjohn.

To be fair I probably wouldn't participate. I'm scrounging to make it. I'd volunteer to join in the dunk tank but I'm not polarizing enough so the amount to help my flight out wouldn't be enough....

Instead of doing a "celeb deathmatch" night on Friday, I should ebay off the opportunity to play all you popular and/or polarizing types.

I'm pretty sure StJohn and Stelek are now officially coming. Pretty sure. The things I do to try and help people arrange their hobby travel!
PS - It might be valuable to note that you actually can get people to attend your event if you don't, you know ... treat 'em like gak while you're doing it.



IN REAL NEWS, for all you traveler types - The on-site Holiday Inn will give you $90/night once they send me the code, as I've blocked off 15 rooms. They share a parking lot w/ the expo center, so ... doesn't get any more convenient. If you sign up for their free priority member program, you also get free continental breakfast during your stay. Plus they'll chuck in 20% off their on-site restaurant for NOVA Open attendees staying at the hotel, yatta yatta.

I *need* to be there.

I will actually attempt to arrange tickets and transportation tonight, that, and I will buying some paints Friday...

So now that I'm signed up, I suppose I need to get painting, anything else I should be doing MVB?

I'd be down with that MVB but I don't think anyone wants to play me enough to pay for it. Might work for Dash, Stelek, and BBF though

So now that I'm signed up, I suppose I need to get painting, anything else I should be doing MVB?

Practice the primer mission packet with your buddies / vassal ... and set terrain up so that it's "identical" regardless of side or deployment type for each side, AND covers 25% of the board.

Keep posted on whatever e-mail you paid with, as once 40k sells out (we have like 9 spots left), I'll start sending out prep e-mails to people on a weekly basis so that everyone is on the same, fair page about what to expect and how to best prepare, plus what's going on during the Friday and Sunday things. Hope the late signer-uppers play Fantasy also ...

I'll also be prepping a travel guide for people coming from areas other than local, so that you can be clued in on a few good places to get brews, food, etc.

- Mike


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:I'd be down with that MVB but I don't think anyone wants to play me enough to pay for it. Might work for Dash, Stelek, and BBF though

... no kidding ...

stjohn70 wrote:Figured I would copy this here, but don't want to retype the whole thing (or copy & paste.... ok, really I'm just trying to drive traffic, sry - but it is funny, I promise), so here's a link:

NOVA Open funnies

This!

Hulksmash wrote:I'd be down with that MVB but I don't think anyone wants to play me enough to pay for it. Might work for Dash, Stelek, and BBF though

BBF needs to actually sign up. If he thinks he's just going to come up and watch, he's going to get put to work. No, seriously, I merrily abuse spectators as pack mules when running events.

I would probably pay to face Hulksmash, no real interest in facing BBF, Stelek is obvious, and I was already mopped by Dash once!

Assuming I had the money TO spend...

That's shens, either way Syphonious. My hard stop at glorifying 40k gamers is at the Celebrity Deathmatch live podcast during Friday night's social activities. Paying to play a PEER is a little silly

Dashofpepper wrote:6cent IHOP challenge?

I don't know what that is. :(

You betting six cents on our fight? 6 cents towards the other's IHOP bill? An IHOP meal?

6Cents AND an Ihop bill.

That way, incase we never have time to go to Ihop, at least the winner gets 6cents (better then nothing )

Huzzah! I will be buying some tickets tonight, looking forward to seeing some of you there.

You say tickets plural ... if that's the case, please let me know the names/contact data of anyone you are purchasing tickets for (someone did this earlier, hence my comment).

Ah yes, I will either PM you or send you an e-mail if I end up purchasing multiple, is that alright with you?

(I recented a tournament, and I used holo-fields, someone said that since it wasn't modeled, I couldn't use them, the TO [obviously] ruled in my favor. I can expect it to be the same here?)

Uh, yeah. Really? Someone tried to call you on NOT modeling a holo-fielded tank? What's next, wysiwyg void shields or bust?

When you were about to walk home with first place, and someone tried to stab you in the back, you could get a little worried!

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ah yes, I will either PM you or send you an e-mail if I end up purchasing multiple, is that alright with you?

(I recented a tournament, and I used holo-fields, someone said that since it wasn't modeled, I couldn't use them, the TO [obviously] ruled in my favor. I can expect it to be the same here?)

I am totally trying this at ard boyz this weekend!!!

Timmah wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ah yes, I will either PM you or send you an e-mail if I end up purchasing multiple, is that alright with you?

(I recented a tournament, and I used holo-fields, someone said that since it wasn't modeled, I couldn't use them, the TO [obviously] ruled in my favor. I can expect it to be the same here?)

I am totally trying this at ard boyz this weekend!!!

I'd dig your eyes out with a spoon!

I didn't even care when someone used a styrofoam egg at the 'ard boyz. (I did care after I got to know the guy actually, cheating, sweating from playing 40k in a normal temperature room, declaring that my vyper bases were illegal...)

I'm positive that that was a joke, though I am still poked about this. (glad that I smoked him later that month when we got into another match at a tournament! )

How many slots are still open?

i am officially signed up

So uhh...

I've managed to get four people signed up for the Nova Open so far.

Mike, all I want is a match against Stelek!

I hope I make it, I have to wait till friday to sign up.

I want a match against Dash just to experience the full force of the pink orks, but with how much of a net celeb he's becoming I'm not so sure I'll land one.

Although I do have a sneaky plan to get him that involves a long string, a bottle of booze, and hiding behind the table.

Lol, Nice Tagetawg!

@Deadshane

He's been really good about holding a spot for me. Since the plane ticket had to come first. You should be alright

Hulksmash wrote:Lol, Nice Tagetawg!

@Deadshane

He's been really good about holding a spot for me. Since the plane ticket had to come first. You should be alright

I sure hope so. This may be the only tournament family matters allow me to go to this year.

Dashofpepper wrote:So uhh...

I've managed to get four people signed up for the Nova Open so far.

Mike, all I want is a match against Stelek!

Chris Nanry got me to sign up :p

sorry to spoil that for you Dash.

But I would love to see a game vs Stelek...

targetawg wrote:I want a match against Dash just to experience the full force of the pink orks, but with how much of a net celeb he's becoming I'm not so sure I'll land one.

Although I do have a sneaky plan to get him that involves a long string, a bottle of booze, and hiding behind the table.

Dude, if you gifted me with a bottle of Captain Morgan at a tournament, I might be forced to concede on the spot out of pure awesomeness. If it was a pint, I would take it easy on you. For a fifth, presuming you hit me up at lunch with it (I'll be blasted by the time lunch is done) you would find our round hilarious and I would probably lose simply by virtue of forgetting what I was doing. Its worked before.


*caveat* I don't endorse public drunkeness at tournament. I only drink when I have a designated driver. I also drink in celebration of meeting new friends in new places. A four round tournament in one day is a very promising avenue to involve a bottle of the Captain in my batreps.

I sh*t you not, (shot of course) someone bringing me a bottle of Captain would honestly make my entire tournament. Although I kinda need to know in advance whether to bring my own fifth or not. Interestingly, I'm a bit toasty as I write this *laughing* My sales team had a going away/promotion party for me tonight (I'm getting promoted/leaving) and our boss bought drinks and decided to challenge my "I have too high of a tolerance to get drunk easily" theory. 10 shots of Captain Morgan and 6 shots of tequila later, he decided to call it quits, after which my team chipped in cash for beer and more captain....I'm on the happy side of stone cold, but not nearly chipper yet!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Huzzah! I will be buying some tickets tonight, looking forward to seeing some of you there.

Dude!!!!

I'll be wearing a shirt with a picture of my avatar clearly labeling me as Dashofpepper. Come up and say hello and shake my hand or ELSE!

Awwwww! Dash and I will match

Cept mine will have a better avatar

Three so far coming from the Charlottesville area. Can't wait till August.

As soon as I get to work I'm signing up!

G

So, i tryed just now to purchase a ticket, but in the checkout process theres nowhere to enter payment info ... Is this a pay at the door event or should there have been somewhere for me to enter CC info :(

6 spots left!

Fantasy is still a bit more open, although anticipating a rush of sign ups once the rules hit the stores and are digested.

Once you've filled out all of your data, and clicked checkout, it will take you to a paypal page, where you can pay either via credit card or paypal.

Just keep through the process until it loads up.

kill dem stunties wrote:So, i tryed just now to purchase a ticket, but in the checkout process theres nowhere to enter payment info ... Is this a pay at the door event or should there have been somewhere for me to enter CC info :(

Should have been a paypal option (currently our only accepted method).

PM me if you're having trouble and I can assist.

Yup, all fine and signed up now, the site had been freaking out evidently, never took me to paypal, just after intial info putting in submitted a 0$ order lol.

Yeah, super weird ... you actually bought a spot initially for free!

Hi Mike!

I just signed up. See ya this August. Looking for to the Friday night fights. Can we bring brass knuckles?

G

MVBrandt wrote:Yeah, super weird ... you actually bought a spot initially for free!

I would have much more preferred he bought nothing for $50, just more lining for the websites pockets!

We'll get into the Friday Night Fights jazz closer in ... but no, you may not bring brass knuckles. Unless they are simply creatively modeled onto your guys.

Well of course of course! I am really looking forward to this. Thanks for putting all this together Mike. It's awesome stuff!

G