Anyone notice some of the similarities?

- Color Scheme
- Raven = Corvidae
- Obsessed with knowledge
- High occurrence of psykers
- Tend to have libbies fall to chaos lol
- Completely unknown Primarch leaves open the posibility

I know it's not anything blatant, but I immediately made the connection. What say ye? Nuts or have a point?

This has been discussed, but I don't think so, to be honest.

I definitely think they're Sons successors. Say what you want about the writing, but the Dawn of War books fully support this theory in my eyes.

They allude to it pretty often. It's one of the things that make the chapter more interesting in my opinion. There's also more stuff in Chaos Rising that alludes to their ties to Chaos, but that's something you'll need to play to find out

As soon as my Starcraft 2 Beta runs out I plan to!

I can't remember the exact reference, but in A Thousand Sons someone has a vision which further supports the idea.

How could they be? AFAIK, they didn't make Succesors of chaos chapters, especially ones that then go to support the Emperor.

Grimm wrote:How could they be? AFAIK, they didn't make Succesors of chaos chapters, especially ones that then go to support the Emperor.

Not every member of a legion had to turn traitor (ala dark angels & Eisenstein incident). Also the thousands sons WERE loyalist until horus tricked russ into trying to kill rather than capture magnus. Seeing no other way to keep himself & his legion alive he reached out to tzeentch to help.

It is possible a force of thousand sons were isolated at that time & were mind cleansed.

What is the Eisenstein incident?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Eisenstein

Magos Explorator wrote:I can't remember the exact reference, but in A Thousand Sons someone has a vision which further supports the idea.

There is a HUGE hint in the Thousand Sons book during the vision. A "Raven of blood", brothers killing brothers, a loss of knowledge.

Also, the book is full of other hints. The raven symbol in the center of the Thousand Sons symbol, some of the Thousand Sons not beong comfortable with the ritual that Magnus uses to get to Horus, and many more.

I think, after this book, that it is pretty clear where the Blood Ravens come from.

It would not be the first time this type of thing has happened in the Heresy books either. Captain Garo was part of the Death Guard, but his little group could be the "fathers" of the Inquisition. That's a pretty BIG responsibility to trust to "traitors".

^That's the vision, yes.

There is also the possibility of taking geneseed from before the HH and using it to make a new chapter as a test, since there were quite a few legions that fell that no known mutations or deformities. Given that at least 2 loyalist legion* geneseeds cannot be used to make new chapters and one is knocked out for more historical reasons, the test could be valid.


*Yes, I know they aren't legions any more, referring to those that were legions pre-HH.

Lexicanum supports this as well with the entry: "The Blood Ravens are decended from the Thousand Sons one clear indication of this is found in Dawn of War Tempest when the sorcerer Ahriman says "Remember this, Rhamah, Son of Ahriman".

Their colors are very similar to pre-heresy 1ksons, they have a bird icon/name(like tzeentch, only not enough by itself to make an assumption), high amount of psykers(with psykers often leading the army, just as with 1ksons), and so many other similarities to 1ksons that it is pretty clear to me that they are meant to be a hidden 1ksons successor chapter.

If the imperium's leaders knew of this it could very well be the reason their records were destroyed("lost").

The image below gives even more credence to the theory with their secondary colors(I believe it is a librarian?) being nearly identical to 1ksons:

all the thousand sons returned to prospero when psykers got banned, bar none. also why would any not get teleported to the new daemon world they live on if they weren't there.
plus blood ravens are a GW paint-scheme and a way to make non-cannon story's for the computer games so who cares.

@Havokas

We Blood Raven players resent you demeening our Chapter as filler-material :(

And yet the Dark Angels creed is "Knowledge is power. Guard it well" (see Dark Angels novel).

What IS possible is that the Blood Ravens are a successor chapter to the Thousand Sons using geneseed from the Thousand Sons legion secretly kept by the imperium.
After all gene samples of all the traitor legions are kept in the vaults of the Imperial Palace.

Plus they have no memory of their primarch, or of their origins.

The only other possibility is they're an offshoot of the Grey Knights experiment.....

Havokas wrote:plus blood ravens are a GW paint-scheme and a way to make non-cannon story's for the computer games so who cares.

Here here, good to see I'm not the only one sick of them. Honestly, they're like a chapter created out of a bad fanfic.

Magos Explorator wrote:I can't remember the exact reference, but in A Thousand Sons someone has a vision which further supports the idea.

Ahh, the 'ravens of blood' vision. I picked up on that one, too.

It's entirely possible it's a reference to the Raven Guard and Blood Angels, of course...

it may be possable and would explain the psyker glut the BRs have.

Now i disagree with the OPs idea of the color scheme idea. How is Scab red and Bleatched bone in ANY way similer to Bright Blue and Yellow?

It would turn the Blood Ravens from being one of my least favorite armys to in the top ten. I am gunna support the 1ksons idea.

Grey Templar wrote:it may be possable and would explain the psyker glut the BRs have.

Now i disagree with the OPs idea of the color scheme idea. How is Scab red and Bleatched bone in ANY way similer to Bright Blue and Yellow?

The Thousand Sons had a different colour palette pre-Heresy.

MajorTom11 wrote:As soon as my Starcraft 2 Beta runs out I plan to!

Starcraft 2 beta doesn't "run out"
I got sc2 beta myself, played for a bit, got pretty far up the gold league, and then got bored. The interface is just so primitive, compared to other modern RTS style games like HoN.
I would recommend playing DoWII, the campaign is pretty awesome and shouldn't take that long.

Edit: Someone beat me to it, nevermind.

WGXH wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:it may be possable and would explain the psyker glut the BRs have.

Now i disagree with the OPs idea of the color scheme idea. How is Scab red and Bleatched bone in ANY way similer to Bright Blue and Yellow?

The Thousand Sons had a different colour palette pre-Heresy.

O I get it, they CHANGED

No, because I refuse to see the Blood Ravens as a canon Chapter, thanks to your's truly, C.S. Goto.

Soladrin wrote:No, because I refuse to see the Blood Ravens as a canon Chapter, thanks to your's truly, C.S. Goto.

Ignore those travesties. Pretty much everybody else does.

I take Blood Raven 'canon', as you will, to be the info taken from the actual games. Dawn of War 2 and it's expansion have quite a lot about it.

Such as Gabriel Angelos not being Chapter master, but instead lead by Kyras, who doubles as chief librarian.

thats just confusing.

who would put a libby in charge!? he could fall to chaos!

Halsfield wrote:The image below gives even more credence to the theory with their secondary colors(I believe it is a librarian?) being nearly identical to 1ksons:

Not really. Chaplans are usually black, right? Tech Marines are usually red, right? Blue like that is usually the colour used for the Librarians. So you'll see stuff like the Salamander's Librarian in the SM codex where he's painted like an Ultramarine, but has some green on him in places to show that he is from the Salamanders Chapter.

Captain Solon wrote:thats just confusing.

who would put a libby in charge!? he could fall to chaos!

If you get the opportunity to, play the campaign for Chaos Rising. Chaos and the Blood Ravens know eachother VERY well.

n0t_u wrote:

Not really. Chaplans are usually black, right? Tech Marines are usually red, right? Blue like that is usually the colour used for the Librarians. So you'll see stuff like the Salamander's Librarian in the SM codex where he's painted like an Ultramarine, but has some green on him in places to show that he is from the Salamanders Chapter.

Well I did call it as a librarian. Librarians aren't just blue but also have gold + yellow highlights. Does that sound like any army we know? My point with the visual was a side-by-side of the two most common blood ravens units (troopers + libarians/psykers) which pair up perfectly with the pre-heresy 1ksons and post heresy 1ksons. It wasn't the basis of my entire argument for them being 1ksons successors, but it is another thing to be considered.

Yup, also to support my theory, Tsons units currently have one sorcerer and rubric/former non-psychic marines. BR fluff indicates they also very commonly use a libby in a squad due to the extremely high numbers. Not to mention fielding squads of all librarians. That last one is from lexicanum 40k wiki, so I'm not sure the source so bigger grain of salt than the rest.

I played Chaos Rising this weekend, pretty cool if a little samey. DOWII is an awesome engine and a ballsy move to a new dynamic, but I still prefer DOWI overall.

SCII plays pretty much exactly as the original for all intents and purposes, but I didnt play the original in multiplayer, just campaign so it is pretty fun for me. I can see how it would be stale for a vet though.

Back on topic, it would be great for GW to actually do something with a story instead of leaving it as the status quo for 20 years, or better yet retconning the whole she-bang and dumbing it down lol!

im not sure either way but i found big decisions like this GW usually doesnt touch and rather lets each person deside for themselves.

i always thought of it as the blood ravens are the loyalist remains from the thousand sons and the rubric of arihman or whatever destroyed that part of their memory. The Imperium being what it is they're fighting so constantly that its just left a big hole in their records and to much war to find out

The DoW games ( imo the best sources of fluff for that chapter which conveniently allows us to ignore Goto's drivel) have yet to show a convincing hint that the Bloodravens are Thousand Sons successors. Though, their somewhat odd relationship with the Black Legion is proven.

Halsfield wrote:Lexicanum supports this as well with the entry: "The Blood Ravens are decended from the Thousand Sons one clear indication of this is found in Dawn of War Tempest when the sorcerer Ahriman says "Remember this, Rhamah, Son of Ahriman".

When he calls him Son of Ahriman its because that Librarian joins Ahriman's Super Special Psyker squad called the Sons of Ahriman, which only exists in the Goto books.

Soladrin wrote:No, because I refuse to see the Blood Ravens as a canon Chapter, thanks to your's truly, C.S. Goto.

Too bad their existence is supported in Codex Space Marines 4th Ed and 5th ed, plus numerous WD articles.

I don't see the hate for the chapter nor the refusal to see the games as canon. They have the GW logo slapped on them. The only things with that on them that I refute are the Goto books, any of them.

The problem with the Blood Ravens is the same as that with the 2nd and 11th Legions. They don't know their primarch or history so people have to invent them. And then the arguments start.

Personally I have no major qualms with the Dawn of War books (apart from the fact they should have stuck to the game events more, like actually getting to the END of Dawn of War II instead of finishing halfway through....)

The idea of them being descended from the Thousand Sons is intriguing, but if the Exorcists didn't know they were related to the Grey Knights would people say the same about them??

I have not read the original Dawn of War trilogy but I did start reading the DOW 2 novel last night and after reading through this post some things jumped out to support the 1k sons theory. First of all, in the first chapter the Blood Ravens are on the planet Prosperon to retrieve a ancient relic before the tyranids consume everything. (For those who read it, why was the Carnifex just standing in a trance while in front of the temple that housed the artifact?) Then in the next chapter they mention that the Blood Ravens have an unusual number of Librarians in their chapter.

I know, nothing earth shattering but I thought it was a nice little nod to the theory.

grubnards wrote:I have not read the original Dawn of War trilogy but I did start reading the DOW 2 novel last night and after reading through this post some things jumped out to support the 1k sons theory. First of all, in the first chapter the Blood Ravens are on the planet Prosperon to retrieve a ancient relic before the tyranids consume everything. (For those who read it, why was the Carnifex just standing in a trance while in front of the temple that housed the artifact?) Then in the next chapter they mention that the Blood Ravens have an unusual number of Librarians in their chapter.

I know, nothing earth shattering but I thought it was a nice little nod to the theory.

DON'T read DoW trilogy... You'll thank me for the warning and you'll beg you'd listened if you do read it.

Seriously, BAAAAD books.

What is all this hatred for the DoW series?

Some of the other books in the Warhammer 40000 range haven't been brilliant (I'm looking at you Legion) but none come in for the scorn these are getting.

The guy had a tough job, getting books out of computer games where players make their own stories and decisions.

It's always the problem where you have "the book of the film" or "the book of the game". The author has to make his own version while staying true to the film/game's representation.

So please just move on.

Corennus wrote:What is all this hatred for the DoW series?

Some of the other books in the Warhammer 40000 range haven't been brilliant (I'm looking at you Legion) but none come in for the scorn these are getting.

The guy had a tough job, getting books out of computer games where players make their own stories and decisions.

It's always the problem where you have "the book of the film" or "the book of the game". The author has to make his own version while staying true to the film/game's representation.

So please just move on.

I havn't read it personally, but apparantly Land Raiders can transform into Razobacks with multilasers while Gabriel Angelos surfs on top.

That's pretty terrible.

not unless Goto's writing them.

MULTILASERS!

multilasers.......i'm sure he means either a twin-linked lascannon or a superlaser gatling gun

Corennus wrote:What is all this hatred for the DoW series?

Some of the other books in the Warhammer 40000 range haven't been brilliant (I'm looking at you Legion) but none come in for the scorn these are getting.

The guy had a tough job, getting books out of computer games where players make their own stories and decisions.

It's always the problem where you have "the book of the film" or "the book of the game". The author has to make his own version while staying true to the film/game's representation.

So please just move on.

The first game you didn't get to create your own story, your were following a set path. Goto in the books wrecked a lot of the stuff established by the first game, and was exceptionably horrible about what he did to the first expansion, Winter Assault. He changed the Ultramarines in the game to being Alpha Legion in disguise, he made Taldeer a member of Beil-Tann, then he killed her in one of the books that took place before Dark Crusade. What else is there? Oh the Psyker Chaplains, Arhiman but he's mentioned with out any Thousand Sons. Multi-Laz marines. Tank surfing, not riding on top of, but surfing.

WGXH wrote:

Corennus wrote:What is all this hatred for the DoW series?

Some of the other books in the Warhammer 40000 range haven't been brilliant (I'm looking at you Legion) but none come in for the scorn these are getting.

The guy had a tough job, getting books out of computer games where players make their own stories and decisions.

It's always the problem where you have "the book of the film" or "the book of the game". The author has to make his own version while staying true to the film/game's representation.

So please just move on.

I havn't read it personally, but apparantly Land Raiders can transform into Razobacks with multilasers while Gabriel Angelos surfs on top.

That's pretty terrible.

I recall Uriel Ventris doing something similar on a rhino and unless you've read the books yourself then your opinion is only that of someone else's.

all is dust

and yet...



This, given the apparant name drop of the Blood Ravens in the new BA Dex...

I thought Legion was quite good.

The only terrible Horus Heresy book so far has been Mechanicum, which made me want to blind myself incase I ever read anything as bad again.

so now the blood ravens are descendants of blood angels AND thousand sons?

i'm confused, run that by me again....

It could be either.

I like the idea of them being decendants of thousand sons the best and it seems to fit pretty wel but thats just what i think

WGXH wrote:and yet...



This, given the apparant name drop of the Blood Ravens in the new BA Dex...

The bigger mystery is what that game is. Seriously, I have never seen that before.

it's DoW 2, chaos rising...
unless you knew that already and are just being sarcastic...

could they possibly be from both? just wondering...

That item was just a complete random drop from the first campaign. Nobody would even think to check the text on it before throwing it aside.

Unless they were bored out of their minds, as I was.

A mix of both then maybe? Just what the imperium needs bloodthirsty psychotic master psykers

Sounds like a great mix to me.

Just as a side note, are the DoW games any good?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Just as a side note, are the DoW games any good?

That's like asking if the sky is blue.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
Just as a side note, are the DoW games any good?

That's like asking if the sky is blue.

so is that a yes or no?

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
Just as a side note, are the DoW games any good?

That's like asking if the sky is blue.

so is that a yes or no?

That's also like asking if the sky is blue. It's one of the best games out there.

ah, I understand now.

so dow 2 says they are blood angel successors, but what about in the story line about the chapters dark secrets and stuff? it cant just be the black rage because why would they lead it on so much if its just the blood angles curse? there has to be more to it!

The games are really good.

There is precedent for chapters founded from blended geneseed, I dont remember the specifics, but I remember reading official fluff about a chapter descended from both Ultra's and DA.

This thread becomes more and more interesting.

ANy idea what chapter that is, at all?

so it seems like its rather blood angles and thousand sons, or the cleverly predicted XD blood angles and raven guard? but there is no supporting fluff for raven guard so it seems the first combo must be it

All this blood raven talk makes me want a librarian squad *sneaks off to find spare apocalypse datasheet*

I thought something similar from just playing the first DoW game. The link to the BA seems tenuous. But with the number of psykers, and forgotten progenitor, it would make sense. I don't know if an age has been given so they could be from the Dark Founding.

Although I believe there are blended gene-seeds.

The Cursed Founding featured chapters with "blended" geneseed, but I think it got retconned to them having been "improved". Having just checked Lexicanum, that seems to be a yes.

@physcosamatic: It doesn't seem likely to be Raven Guard. Their geneseed is massively flawed and I can't imagine the Inquisition being ready to start another chapter using stock that has failed in the field, so to speak.

Fifty wrote:I thought Legion was quite good.

The only terrible Horus Heresy book so far has been Mechanicum, which made me want to blind myself incase I ever read anything as bad again.

legion was great, so was mechanicumum. all of them were, except maybe battle for the abyss

Problem with dark founding idea is that Blood Ravens apparently are a VERY old chapter.

I personally think they should have left the whole prophecy out of A Thousand Sons, and not taken C S Goto's idea as canon....

Still, I'm starting to like the Thousand Sons now.

lol, the DOW books are probably some of the only SM black library books I haven't read... i think I'm gonna keep it that way too lol!

Sigh... Don't you wish they'd get off their duffs and make some heresy era models officially already?

It can be wrong, but.... they cannot be somekind of geneseed mixing??? think about it, mostly can be 1ksons with a part of...blood angels? that can explain the absence of black rage... word bearers? i always think why Eliphas treated them as somekind of "lost brother".... maybe Angron? that can explain their love for battle, that can be confused with loyalist chapters....

WGXH wrote:That item was just a complete random drop from the first campaign. Nobody would even think to check the text on it before throwing it aside.

Unless they were bored out of their minds, as I was.

I got a Bolt Pistol in a drop in DoW2 named "Wrath of Baal" or something that says it has a blood drop symbol on the handle indicating it's from the Blood Angels, but that the BA don't have any records of the exchange the Blood Ravens claim they got it from.

I check the fluff on ALL my weapon drops. I like to think I just wanna know all the fluff there is to the game, but maybe I'm just lame and bored.

The fluff on a chapter that was only made up to be in a dinky video game does not interest me.

dinky eh? then why're you on this thread?
Just politely wondering...

maybe during the events of the blood angel novels, some tzeentch followers got some BA seed...
I've never actually read those books but I do know that much, do i need a spoiler thingy for that?

I'm on this thread because I have an interest in things related to the Thousand Sons. I see now that this isn't one. Just a misinterpretation.

Your problem with the Blood Ravens is that they are from a video game?

i've heard this arguement before, I can't find where but his/her (i've met too many guys under female usernames) problem seems to be that the game doesn't do WH40k justice... or something like that... or it could be that the Blood Ravens suck.

I dunno what i'm talking about anymore.

I LOVE the Blood Ravens. I have a pretty good sized table top version of the army. Fell in love with the games (DoW, DoW2). I also think they may just be related to 1ksons. The little things they poke in there with BA fluff, throws me for a loop. Either way, to me the BR are far more than just canon fodder for 40k.

Random comment, but keep in mind that Sanguinius was the second strongest psyker amongst the primachs, from memory... certainly a skilled one regardless.

Besides, I thought librarians had to be psykers before the geneseed implantation started in the first place?

Ok about to commit Heresy.

I'm reading the Dawn of War trilogy again, and the first book is actually pretty readable.

Actually having played the game (obsessively lol).

Sanguinius is not a psyker at all Morgrim. He was gifted with wings for flight.
Magnus is the strongest psyker in the Imperium after the Emperor.

And all initiates to space marine chapters are "vetted" for psykers at the first stage. Those that show potential are trained as Lexicanums.

Although i'm very surprised that the Blood Ravens have much more of an affinity with the Alpha Legion than anything else.
They have a long hatred of the Alpha Legion, which means maybe they're not descendants of Magnus but Alpharius.....

But wasn't the black rage the result of some psychic backlash the BA received from some battle? i'm sorry i got this from lexicanum, i'm kinda too poor for official material

so you're saying that it's all Alpharius' master plan to do what exactly?

offnote here, was it not the novel that was made before the game?

after... i think

The Black Rage and Red Thirst were hidden curses unlocked by the death of Sanguinius at the hands of Horus at the end of the Horus Heresy. The death of their primarch was something every Blood Angel felt in their souls when they heard about it, and from the feelings of loss were born the Black Rage and Red Thirst.

wait a minute sangiunius wasnt a psyker?!

the only "psyker" among the Primarchs was Magnus. That's not to say the primarchs couldn't feel the currents of the Warp, or defend themselves against it, but the only primarch who actively had psyker power was Magnus the Red.

The reason the Red Thirst and Black Rage are arttributed to a "psycic" event is the fact that it is the blood of Sanguinius (caught in the Red Grail) that activates the geneseed of new Blood Angels. And the blood from Sanguinius' body carries the memories of his last desperate fight against Horus.

Corennus wrote:the only "psyker" among the Primarchs was Magnus. That's not to say the primarchs couldn't feel the currents of the Warp, or defend themselves against it, but the only primarch who actively had psyker power was Magnus the Red.

Horus the Warmaster wrote:“Sanguinius. It should have been him. He has the vision and strength to carry us to victory, and the wisdom to rule once victory is won. For all his aloof coolness, he alone has the Emperor's soul in his blood. Each of us carries part of our father within us, whether it is his hunger for battle, his psychic talent or his determination to succeed. Sanguinius holds it all. It should have been his...”

Sangiunius was a psyker too.

Nothing in any of the official canon actually says sanguinius was a psyker.
Sanguinius certainly used weapons that required a certain level of concentration to use (The Spear of Tesluo) but he didn't have any psyker ability beyond an intuition for war....

Once again, the only Primarch who inherited the Emperor's psyker ability was Magnus.

Sanguinius inherited his father's nobility along with his hidden savagery.

The reason the Red Thirst and Black Rage are arttributed to a "psycic" event is the fact that it is the blood of Sanguinius (caught in the Red Grail) that activates the geneseed of new Blood Angels. And the blood from Sanguinius' body carries the memories of his last desperate fight against Horus.

What's that red grail you talked about?

So there's no place in any of the official canon that says he was a psyker? and are you sure that no other primarchs had any psyker ability?
Would like some quotes and proofs please

Corennus wrote:Nothing in any of the official canon actually says sanguinius was a psyker.
Sanguinius certainly used weapons that required a certain level of concentration to use (The Spear of Tesluo) but he didn't have any psyker ability beyond an intuition for war....

Once again, the only Primarch who inherited the Emperor's psyker ability was Magnus.

Sanguinius inherited his father's nobility along with his hidden savagery.

Sanguinus had some (mild) psyker abbilities, most noted is his ability to see glimpses of the future, and even knowing he would die to Horus' punch he still battle him in order to buy the Emperor time and the famous crack in the armor of Horus.

cadian512 wrote:

Fifty wrote:I thought Legion was quite good.

The only terrible Horus Heresy book so far has been Mechanicum, which made me want to blind myself incase I ever read anything as bad again.

legion was great, so was mechanicumum. all of them were, except maybe battle for the abyss

Uh, wow!

I know opinions differ and all that, but MECHANICUM was pretty good, ABYSS was TERRIBLE and the Dark Angel Heresy books tend to be rather bad too...

I think we might find a bit more out about the Blood Ravens as the Heresy books near completion, but until then...?

I think GW is having trouble reconciling the Video Game Fluff with their 'official' stuff, is all...

I enjoyed the Dark Angels books.

Legion was an unintelligble convoluted mess. Much like the Alpha Legion itself.

John Grammaticus......if the Emperor looks down on his own son Magnus using warp powers how on earth is he supposed to let a being like Grammaticus live???

Corennus wrote:I enjoyed the Dark Angels books.

Legion was an unintelligble convoluted mess. Much like the Alpha Legion itself.

John Grammaticus......if the Emperor looks down on his own son Magnus using warp powers how on earth is he supposed to let a being like Grammaticus live???

he was going to kill him but never got the chance because he died and got kidnapped by the cabal who brought him back to life, simple

Corennus wrote:if the Emperor looks down on his own son Magnus using warp powers

How d you gather that? He didn't want the Council of Nikea(according to A Thousand Sons) and was creating the Golden Throne FOR Magnus. Yeah, totally looked down upon him.

The reason he sent Russ was because Magnus disobeyed him and accidentally destroyed Earth's Warp defense system.

Platuan4th wrote:

Corennus wrote:if the Emperor looks down on his own son Magnus using warp powers

How d you gather that? He didn't want the Council of Nikea(according to A Thousand Sons) and was creating the Golden Throne FOR Magnus. Yeah, totally looked down upon him.

The reason he sent Russ was because Magnus disobeyed him and accidentally destroyed Earth's Warp defense system.

He lost all credibility when he started bad mouthing LEGION...

I know the Emperor didn't want the Council of Nikea (and I have to agree with the Lord of Change who shows Magnus a future with him being the Emperor's slave entombed in the Golden Throne while the Emperor enjoys the Imperium).

But also (unless the warp was veiling the emperor's sight) I don't think the Emperor would have allowed such a powerful psyker free rein.

And sometime I will get round to re-reading Legion. Maybe it will make sense to me second time round. But first impression of it was not good for me.

Especially since (yes i KNOW this is a computer game and computer game characters are 2D constructs) the Alpha Legion portrayed in the DoW universe is totally given over to Chaos.

i suppose ten thousand years of hanging around with deamons and warp-spawn is going to have a slight effect on your personality

The only way I can reconcile the "still loyal" bit with the depraved look of the Alpha Legion in the 41st Millenium is that with their main Primarch dead (Alpharius) Omegon takes over the Legion and leads it fully to Chaos.

Yes I stated that belief earlier in this thread.

I love Legion, it's my favourite book so far. Possibly because Alpha Legion is my favourite, I love the subtlety and plans within plans and focus of the legion. The ambiguity of why they joined Horus is nice too. I can see why many turned to chaos proper though; their supposed plan to help defeat chaos blew up in their face and they are left with no support and no turning back.

Granted, keeping track of which marine is pretending to be which primach at any one time can be a bit confusing. With John I got the impression that the Emperor wanted to find and possibly have trained the more potent psykers he came across for the same reasons the Black Ships do know: because while a trained psyker under Imperial authority and supervision is very helpful, an untrained psyker running about on their own is deadly. Get a reputation for killing any you find and finding them becomes a lot harder.

I recall the old codex for BA said Mephiston's powers were all reflections of Sanguinius', and the only one of those replicating physical traits is the wings. Sanguinius was also known for prophetic visions that actually worked out true without blowing up in his face... I always got the impression he was a passive psyker while Magnus was an active one. Magnus was a storm that could strike out as he chose, Sanguinius had more quiet ones running constantly in the background.

Corax was a lower grade psyker, he could mask himself from notice (ala jedi mind trick, not active 'you did not see me' but simply not being noticed unless he did something obvious. It helped him survive the Dropsite Massacre. *source the Raven Guard audio book

Strange then that the official fluff doesn't say each Primarch had psyker powers.

There is nothng that says Sanguinius was a psyker in any of the backgrounds I have read.

That is NOT to say that the Primarch's geneseed couldn't unlock psychic potential in his legion. but Sanguinius had none of the powers that the Emperor or Magnus wielded.

While it may not be outright stated in the current fluff, many Primarchs had psychic (or psychic-like) abilitities.

Sanguinius, for example, had the ability to see the future.

As far as DoW and the depiction of the Alpha Legion?

1) It IS DoW, so really, who knows?
2) The dual nature of the Alpha Legion as well as the passage of 10,000 years since the Heresy means that some Alpha Legion could have gone over fully to Chaos. Hell, even some Ultramarines have gone renegade!

I believe up until 2nd edition, I am pretty sure that the fluff expressly said all primarchs were massively powerful psykers... Kinda only makes sense as they are supposed to be children of the most powerful psyker who ever lived.

Instead, now some of them only inherited an awesome jaw-line apparently lol

want to know what would be cool.....

if BA and Tsons (when they were red) got like in a battle in a planet and they were abandond and after years of fighting they just kind of stopped andthe librarians like were doing there warp crap and they bolth got so much attention that tzeentch himself looked and "gifted upon them" and sence they were bolth so talented in change that he combined them into one living body. As the chapter grew from the remnents of the army joined they decided to go to loyalist.

Now i have no clue what the H*** i am talking about..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:

cadian512 wrote:

Fifty wrote:I thought Legion was quite good.

The only terrible Horus Heresy book so far has been Mechanicum, which made me want to blind myself incase I ever read anything as bad again.

legion was great, so was mechanicumum. all of them were, except maybe battle for the abyss

Uh, wow!

I know opinions differ and all that, but MECHANICUM was pretty good, ABYSS was TERRIBLE and the Dark Angel Heresy books tend to be rather bad too...

I think we might find a bit more out about the Blood Ravens as the Heresy books near completion, but until then...?

I think GW is having trouble reconciling the Video Game Fluff with their 'official' stuff, is all...

um ya mechanicumum was good
the only bad one was
"decent of angels" that one sucked big time.....
Battle for the abyss.... Umm i got half way through then burned it... it was not bad but i got bored with that one

I don't know if this was stated earlier, I do have the sneaking suspicion that it was though. After reading Legion, couldn't the blood angels be a secret successor chapter to the Alpha Legion, after all... I think it was Alpharius that said it, they value knowledge above all.

and sorry for reopening this thread, i just really wanted to add this.

unbeliever87 wrote:Honestly, they're like a chapter created out of a bad fanfic.

We're talking about Blood Ravens, not Ultramarines.


Personally, I say that they're descended from 1k Sons for the various reasons stated in this thread... and because it strangely appeals to me. The Blood Ravens are loyal to the core. Proof that, perhaps, the 1k Sons could have been saved had Magnus acted a little differently, or if the Emperor had not reacted so poorly to him screwing everything up on Terra.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Solon wrote:thats just confusing.

who would put a libby in charge!? he could fall to chaos!

...
*cough*
Play the expansion...

this thread is over 2 months old.

check the dates before posting please.


alerting Modquisition

Corennus wrote:Strange then that the official fluff doesn't say each Primarch had psyker powers.

There is nothng that says Sanguinius was a psyker in any of the backgrounds I have read.

That is NOT to say that the Primarch's geneseed couldn't unlock psychic potential in his legion. but Sanguinius had none of the powers that the Emperor or Magnus wielded.

Sanguinius could see the future i'd call that psychic.

Melissia wrote:Honestly, they're like a chapter created out of a bad fanfic. We're talking about Blood Ravens, not Ultramarines.


Personally, I say that they're descended from 1k Sons for the various reasons stated in this thread... and because it strangely appeals to me. The Blood Ravens are loyal to the core. Proof that, perhaps, the 1k Sons could have been saved had Magnus acted a little differently, or if the Emperor had not reacted so poorly to him screwing everything up on Terra.

Games Workshop has certainly dropped endless hints that they are.

There's some inconsistency when it comes to the book A Thousand Sons though.

The Thousand Sons were always beyond salvation because Tzeentch tampered with their geneseed when it was created. The flesh change was destroying them until Magnus made his first pact with Tzeentch for his aid in temporarily stopping the flesh change. When he made his second pact with Tzeentch during the razing of Prospero it just made it de jure as well as de facto. Tzeentch planned out everything aeons in advance and had a planet waiting for them.

Yet the Blood Ravens are mysteriously unaffected by the flaw in Magnus' geneseed...

Perhaps their gene-seed was purified somehow, then?

Back to the depths with ye...