A South Korean navy ship with about 100 personnel on board is sinking off the west coast near North Korea, possibly due to a torpedo attack, reports say.
The ship was sinking near Baengnyeong island, Yonhap news agency quoted navy officials as saying.
It also said the South Korean ship had fired shots toward an unidentified ship from the North.
There were no immediate reports of casualties, but a rescue operation was said to be under way, Yonhap reported.
The incident happened late on Friday night local time.
Nope. This is more or less the norm for anyone whose been paying attention to the Korean peninsula. There's been skirmishes and casualties and makes the "Demilitarized Zone" seem pretty ironic.
Cane wrote:Nope. This is more or less the norm for anyone whose been paying attention to the Korean peninsula. There's been skirmishes and casualties and makes the "Demilitarized Zone" seem pretty ironic.
This.
If I remember right, North Korea makes a habit of flinging shells dangerously close to the edge of the DMZ and hasn't hesitated to raid the South Korean side to nab soldiers for "reeducation" before.
One should never forget, the Korean War never actually ended.
What we have is the longest cease-fire in modern times. There is still officially a state of war between the two Koreas. The only reason there isn't a state of war between North Korea and the USA is that the USA never declared war on North Korea in the first place. Officially it was categorized as a 'police action.'
So basically now it's up to the south Koreans whether they want to resume hostilities at this point. However, though they will surely wipe Lil Kim and his huddling masses off of the face of the Earth, they would have to accept the total destruction of Seoul due to that one massive artillery barrage, possibly with a little nuclear flavor that the north would get off. Hmmm, if it were truly up to them, they probably wouldn't, but their masters the NWO may just want this as the next step in their nefarious plan.
warpcrafter wrote:So basically now it's up to the south Koreans whether they want to resume hostilities at this point. However, though they will surely wipe Lil Kim and his huddling masses off of the face of the Earth, they would have to accept the total destruction of Seoul due to that one massive artillery barrage, possibly with a little nuclear flavor that the north would get off. Hmmm, if it were truly up to them, they probably wouldn't, but their masters the NWO may just want this as the next step in their nefarious plan.
Pretty much. They've really got SK's balls in a meat grinder.
This is nothing new. The North Koreans butchered a bunch of guys in the DMZ with axes during the 60s. I can"t remember if the victims were ROK army or US army, but the North Koreans showed up in a truck and hacked a bunch of guys up.
My grandfather was in the first war. He was a corporal (he siad the wasnt that bad, all he had to do was go on patrols and call in airstrikes). His stories influenced me to start imp. guard.
Khornholio wrote:This is nothing new. The North Koreans butchered a bunch of guys in the DMZ with axes during the 60s. I can"t remember if the victims were ROK army or US army, but the North Koreans showed up in a truck and hacked a bunch of guys up.
US army that were clearing from an area that the NKs mislabelled as part of their turf, and not the actual DMZ.
The political rammifications of the Koreas back at war would be incalculable. As it is, South Korea is vacillating that North Korea was not the cause and North Korea has not pegged itself as the cause yet for the explosion, IF they were the actual cause that is.
warpcrafter wrote:So basically now it's up to the south Koreans whether they want to resume hostilities at this point. However, though they will surely wipe Lil Kim and his huddling masses off of the face of the Earth, they would have to accept the total destruction of Seoul due to that one massive artillery barrage, possibly with a little nuclear flavor that the north would get off. Hmmm, if it were truly up to them, they probably wouldn't, but their masters the NWO may just want this as the next step in their nefarious plan.
It isn't just the damage that can be done to Seoul, there's the millions of refugees they'll have to accept afterwards. Germany found reunification really hard, and South Korea will be looking at reunifying a far poorer state without anywhere near as strong an economy of their own.
warpcrafter wrote:So basically now it's up to the south Koreans whether they want to resume hostilities at this point. However, though they will surely wipe Lil Kim and his huddling masses off of the face of the Earth, they would have to accept the total destruction of Seoul due to that one massive artillery barrage, possibly with a little nuclear flavor that the north would get off. Hmmm, if it were truly up to them, they probably wouldn't, but their masters the NWO may just want this as the next step in their nefarious plan.
It isn't just the damage that can be done to Seoul, there's the millions of refugees they'll have to accept afterwards. Germany found reunification really hard, and South Korea will be looking at reunifying a far poorer state without anywhere near as strong an economy of their own.
In Germany's case, the infrastructure and relatively poor economic might of the East was seen as negative by the West Germans. East Germans didn't migrate in hordes to the West (but there was a population shift) because there really wasn't anywhere for East Germans to go. The unified government had to invest more money and resources into developing the East while providing resources to help the people who had real disadvantages versus the West (East Germans were not badly off; they developed on the fringe of the Western world and had access to some goods. The real issue was the integration of a people and a nation that was under the heel of Communist rule and a Socialist economy that deprived them of freedom and goods respectively (There is one story of East Berliners and Germans going to the Western supermarkets and buying citrus fruits in large quantities immediately after the Iron Curtain melted; many of them simply could not obtain the products in their home countries).
WarOne wrote:In Germany's case, the infrastructure and relatively poor economic might of the East was seen as negative by the West Germans. East Germans didn't migrate in hordes to the West (but there was a population shift) because there really wasn't anywhere for East Germans to go. The unified government had to invest more money and resources into developing the East while providing resources to help the people who had real disadvantages versus the West (East Germans were not badly off; they developed on the fringe of the Western world and had access to some goods. The real issue was the integration of a people and a nation that was under the heel of Communist rule and a Socialist economy that deprived them of freedom and goods respectively (There is one story of East Berliners and Germans going to the Western supermarkets and buying citrus fruits in large quantities immediately after the Iron Curtain melted; many of them simply could not obtain the products in their home countries).
That's the thing. In East Germany you had a functional state, living standards and work practices weren't close to Western standards but they weren't that bad... reunification was still incredibly difficult. North Korea is in a far poorer position, South Korea is a less powerful economy than West Germany, and it might come in the wake of a war - meaning there'll be millions of refugees to worry about before they can even start reunification.
Basically if they wanted to re unify, they would have to keep all of the North Koreans in North Korea until they could sort the country out. There is nothing like 200 000 angry commandos to destabalize a country.
Sunk South Korea naval ship Cheonan 'split in half'
The force of Friday's mysterious explosion which sunk a South Korean naval ship appears to have split the vessel's hull in two, officials say. The two halves are lying on the sea bed but bad weather has prevented military divers from reaching the wreckage. Forty-six sailors are missing and rescue workers say it is unlikely that anyone could have survived three days in the near-freezing water. The cause of the explosion on the 1,200-tonne Cheonan remains unclear. The BBC's John Sudworth in Seoul says several possibilities have been suggested: an accidental onboard explosion a blast caused by hitting rocks or sea mines or a deliberate outside attack. The naval patrol vessel sank near the disputed maritime border with North Korea but military officials say there is no indication the North was involved.
Fifty-eight sailors, including the captain, were rescued from one of the South's worst sea disasters. Some rescue-workers say it is still possible that some people could have survived in air-pockets inside the ship, although the water in the Yellow Sea is about 4C. After visiting the disaster site, Defence Minister Kim Tae-young said: "The vessel appeared to have been split into half," reports South Korea's Yonhap news agency. Although the waters are fairly shallow, the exact location of the wreckage has not yet been located, according to defence ministry spokesman Won Tae-jae. Navy and coast guard vessels, as well as air force planes, are still scouring the area near South Korea's Baeknyeong Island. A group of 80 family members have sailed around the crash site and watched the rescue efforts, the AP news agency reports. But some relatives are accusing the navy of a cover-up, saying the ship was in need of repair. 'Save me' Earlier, the ship's rescued captain has been recounting what happened. "There was the sound of an explosion and the ship keeled to the right. We lost power and telecommunications," Yonhap quoted Choi Won-il as saying.
"I was trapped in the cabin for five minutes before my colleagues broke the window in and let me out. When I got out, the stern had disappeared." A number of the crew jumped into the water, Yonhap said. "Yells and screams filled the air," witness Kim Jin-ho, a seaman who was on a local passenger ship bound for Baeknyeong, told cable news channel YTN. "Marines on deck were desperately shouting: 'Save me!"' South Korean President Lee Myung-bak convened an emergency meeting of security officials and said all possible causes for the sinking would be investigated. He ordered the military to focus on rescuing the sailors. There were initial reports that another South Korean ship had fired shots toward an unidentified vessel, but officials later speculated the target had been a flock of birds. The incident comes at a time of tension between the two Koreas. International talks aimed at ending the communist North's nuclear ambitions have been stalled for months. North and South Korea are still in a official state of war because the 1950-53 Korean War ended only in a truce. Since then, they have fought three bloody skirmishes in the Yellow Sea. In January, North Korea fired about 30 artillery shells not far from Baeknyeong. South Korea fired 100 warning shots in response, but no injuries were reported. South Korea recognises the Northern Limit Line, drawn unilaterally by the US-led United Nations Command to demarcate the sea border at the end of the Korean War. The line has never been accepted by North Korea.
They're actually quite unsure what caused the incident so far. The north certainly isn't claiming responsibility.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
sebster wrote:
WarOne wrote:In Germany's case, the infrastructure and relatively poor economic might of the East was seen as negative by the West Germans. East Germans didn't migrate in hordes to the West (but there was a population shift) because there really wasn't anywhere for East Germans to go. The unified government had to invest more money and resources into developing the East while providing resources to help the people who had real disadvantages versus the West (East Germans were not badly off; they developed on the fringe of the Western world and had access to some goods. The real issue was the integration of a people and a nation that was under the heel of Communist rule and a Socialist economy that deprived them of freedom and goods respectively (There is one story of East Berliners and Germans going to the Western supermarkets and buying citrus fruits in large quantities immediately after the Iron Curtain melted; many of them simply could not obtain the products in their home countries).
That's the thing. In East Germany you had a functional state, living standards and work practices weren't close to Western standards but they weren't that bad... reunification was still incredibly difficult. North Korea is in a far poorer position, South Korea is a less powerful economy than West Germany, and it might come in the wake of a war - meaning there'll be millions of refugees to worry about before they can even start reunification.
You also have generations of institutionalized racism. From childhood north koreans are raised to believe that they are the master race, and that the rest of the world attempts to keep them caged. They cite foreign aid as an example of tribute regularly.
WarOne wrote:In Germany's case, the infrastructure and relatively poor economic might of the East was seen as negative by the West Germans. East Germans didn't migrate in hordes to the West (but there was a population shift) because there really wasn't anywhere for East Germans to go. The unified government had to invest more money and resources into developing the East while providing resources to help the people who had real disadvantages versus the West (East Germans were not badly off; they developed on the fringe of the Western world and had access to some goods. The real issue was the integration of a people and a nation that was under the heel of Communist rule and a Socialist economy that deprived them of freedom and goods respectively (There is one story of East Berliners and Germans going to the Western supermarkets and buying citrus fruits in large quantities immediately after the Iron Curtain melted; many of them simply could not obtain the products in their home countries).
That's the thing. In East Germany you had a functional state, living standards and work practices weren't close to Western standards but they weren't that bad... reunification was still incredibly difficult. North Korea is in a far poorer position, South Korea is a less powerful economy than West Germany, and it might come in the wake of a war - meaning there'll be millions of refugees to worry about before they can even start reunification.
You also have generations of institutionalized racism. From childhood north koreans are raised to believe that they are the master race, and that the rest of the world attempts to keep them caged. They cite foreign aid as an example of tribute regularly.
Actually, it's not that hard to see it as such when you think about it.
1) North Korea throws a hissy, firing shells or other small breaches in the Ceasefire, making loud sounds as they do so.
2) Diplomats and Foreign Powers depserately try to cool down the (artificially started) situation.
3) North Korea ceases.
4) Foreign Aid is given as a reward for thier peaceful approach. *rolls eyes*
It's not too hard for North Korean leaders to twist that into a tribute of sorts.
It's not too hard for North Korean leaders to twist that into a tribute of sorts.
Yes it is. They perform a bizarre miracle of propaganda to actually have that work. It's real hard to see yourself as the superior race when you live in bamboo huts, your economies collapsed, and you're starving.
I was talking about the actual aid given itself, not the startling difference in living standards.
I agree that it would be fairly hard to do so if the majority of the populace truly believed that the rest of the world was that much better off.
Emperors Faithful wrote:I was talking about the actual aid given itself, not the startling difference in living standards.
I agree that it would be fairly hard to do so if the majority of the populace truly believed that the rest of the world was that much better off.
Yeah, that's the part that's hard to know. You see a lot of talk that they're told that NK is a garden spot compared to the rest of the world. On the other hand, groups do smuggle people out. Which would indicate at least some recognition on the part of the populace that things are better elsewhere.
Of course, when I see mass starvation all around me, I know I'd probably roll the dice too even if I was told SK was a radioactive wasteland.
Of course, I have no real way of knowing that North Korea isn't actually better off than us. Maybe our beloved western propoganda is also working its magic?
I mean, Kim Jong-Il's birth was foretold by a sparrow, and he does have the power to control both the weather and time. Clearly we would be fortunate to have such a splendid being as our own leader.
gorgon wrote:Yeah, that's the part that's hard to know. You see a lot of talk that they're told that NK is a garden spot compared to the rest of the world. On the other hand, groups do smuggle people out. Which would indicate at least some recognition on the part of the populace that things are better elsewhere.
Of course, when I see mass starvation all around me, I know I'd probably roll the dice too even if I was told SK was a radioactive wasteland.
There's an active black market of goods smuggled across the Chinese border, most people know things are better outside.
KingCracker wrote:Is that why he wears what looks like women shoes?
It's those sunglasses that make me question his status as a living God.
Ask China for this type of things , they have been shooting missile at Taiwan for years
Sooo....China has been attempting to fire A missile at Taiwan for years? Wow. Good thing we don't have to worry about them getting into space or out-sourcing all our technology to there.
Ask China for this type of things , they have been shooting missile at Taiwan for years
At least cite a source when claiming that china is firing ordinance into something it considers a peaceful breakaway province that it's heavily invested in economically.
Ask China for this type of things , they have been shooting missile at Taiwan for years
Sooo....China has been attempting to fire A missile at Taiwan for years? Wow. Good thing we don't have to worry about them getting into space or out-sourcing all our technology to there.
Ask China for this type of things , they have been shooting missile at Taiwan for years
Sooo....China has been attempting to fire A missile at Taiwan for years? Wow. Good thing we don't have to worry about them getting into space or out-sourcing all our technology to there.
So they test fired short range missiles in the straight fifteen years ago. How does that mean they've been shooting missile at taiwan for years? Also while it's kind of you to post a link on basic taiwanese history, it's better to actually say something in reference to the question you were asked. That link didn't answer his question.
Soladrin wrote:Am I the only one with this oppinion on the matter?
Let them nuke each other and be done with it so they can start doing something good? They are obviously not going anywhere as it is.
Yes. You are the only one with that opinion on the matter. Or at least you're placed pretty firmly in the camp of people that don't really have any idea what's going on.
ShumaGorath wrote:So they test fired short range missiles in the straight fifteen years ago. How does that mean they've been shooting missile at taiwan for years? Also while it's kind of you to post a link on basic taiwanese history, it's better to actually say something in reference to the question you were asked. That link didn't answer his question.
Because this wont be the first time i think whether i should waste my time or bother giving you a total detailed record between Taiwan and China mainly from
1995- 2006 , just to have you say something like " sorry i dont read moon language"
No recently I don't i have to give you that. But seriously they have been pointing guns for so long it's getting boring... Sorry for the over simplistic view of the thing, not meant to offend anyone. Also, if what I said does happen, I hope they get the Soldiers outta there.
But yea in all reality, offcourse I hope it'll be a peacefull solution...
Soladrin wrote:Am I the only one with this oppinion on the matter?
Let them nuke each other and be done with it so they can start doing something good? They are obviously not going anywhere as it is.
No, there's a few of you out there and typically one of your kind will pop into these kinds of threads.
Most us work with the assumption that it's bad when people die and really bad when lots of people die so nuclear destruction is the worst possible result. As a result when people like you post things like that we shake our heads and move on with the conversation, so if that makes you feel like you're being dismissed but what else can we do?
Because this wont be the first time i think whether i should waste my time or bother giving you a total detailed record between Taiwan and China mainly from 1995- 2006 , just to have you say something like " sorry i dont read moon language"
If you can't find articles concerning chinese aggression against taiwan in something other than that weird moon language than you either aren't trying very hard or such things don't actually exist. For reference I understand the concept of sino-taiwanese cross straight relationships likely better than you do, and it's not hard to find english versions of those exact same wiki articles. Wikipedia pages are commonly translated into nearly all major languages.
I'm sure you like to revel in being able to speak a foreign language, but don't act like languages are a crutch for the people you argue with. Or at least when you do, try and support your points beyond just posting something in a foreign tongue to veil your lack of actual examples.
Because this wont be the first time i think whether i should waste my time or bother giving you a total detailed record between Taiwan and China mainly from
1995- 2006 , just to have you say something like " sorry i dont read moon language"
If you can't find articles concerning chinese aggression against taiwan in something other than that weird moon language than you either aren't trying very hard or such things don't actually exist. For reference I understand the concept of sino-taiwanese cross straight relationships likely better than you do, and it's not hard to find english versions of those exact same wiki articles.
I'm sure you like to revel in being able to speak a foreign language, but don't act like languages are a crutch for the people you argue with. Or at least when you do, try and support your points beyond just posting something in a foreign tongue to veil your lack of actual examples.
Your link is 1 page , that discribes like what , 1% of what happend.
Take the last link i give you , its compiled with ALL the events , babel fish it.
Im going to post the link with most info , if it happens to be not in english , translate the stupid pages.
Its not that hard. Search what? an english one? like the one you posted? thats not enough info.
One thing to know about Shuma: its best to not bother arguing with him. He will tear your argument apart ad make you look like an ass while he does it.
Corvus wrote:One thing to know about Shuma: its best to not bother arguing with him. He will tear your argument apart ad make you look like an ass while he does it.
He cant, he is better skilled than me at arguing , this is 200% true.
But as skilled as he is , i still have the advantage of knowing true info.
Just like the last time he argued the chinese products in asia , what can he do? nothing.
he claimed nothing much happend , i gave him links to like 5 different news channels , with news spanning between time period
of 4 years. What did shuma do?
"i dont understand mandarin"
I ^ mean ok , sigh w/e why do i bother with someone like that? i shouldnt.
In addition , this all takes places in Taiwan , which is pretty much the epicenter of the events.
Where else can you find more in depth and complete info and records then from Taiwan?
compared to some random n.american wiki? You cant. But he insist on dismissing the direct info
from the source , because " i cant read it"
So you know what shuma? You win , you win because you argue better , or frankly because i suck at arguing.
But i bet you anything people like kidkyoto that can read the language / link i give will 100% know why the war will always exist.
And you can stay in your little world that nothing happened.
ShumaGorath wrote:I'm sure you like to revel in being able to speak a foreign language, but don't act like languages are a crutch for the people you argue with. Or at least when you do, try and support your points beyond just posting something in a foreign tongue to veil your lack of actual examples.
My point: dhsGdhSGnzdsgs gsrs SGsGsgfds sgsg s s sgsrtwY Heyawe edh zdh d
Example:
Translated:
Gibberish is hard to understand, especially when it is causing you to go insane and unable to render coherent thoughts.
eh well i didnt see that part. I just remember Shuma tearing apart some fool who tried to say that al-Qaida and the Taliban are "freedom fighters" and not terrorists. I lol'd.
And in respect to this thread, the Koreas are constantly having incidents like this. Sniper fire across the DMZ, insane rhetoric from Pyongyang, naval clashes, sabatoge, kidnappings, etc (most of it perpetrated by the North). Sometimes when VIPs visit the DMZ, the North Korean guards moon them and heckle them from their guardposts. Bottom line, the Koreas are still at war, but neither side is willing to escalate into open fighting, at least not yet. However, as Kim Jong-Il's health continues to deteriorate, I would not be surprised to see increased "incidents" as he tries to direct attention away from the fact that the North Korean people's "Great Father" is dying.
That same information is published elsewhere(such as the BBC), quite often.
Just with y'know...actual facts, rather than Taiwan's take on the situation. Taiwan and China's media outlets both have a pretty hefty slant on events that make Fox News look like a credible source.
And by the by:
If you're going to delve into the OT Politics Realm...using foreign language citations and requiring someone to "babelfish it" is slightly ridiculous. Babelfish is at best, like someone with a slight stutter speaking to you.
At worst it's like the stereotypical image of the mentally disabled trying to explain physics to Einstein.
@Corvus , at modern times like now , wars and fights you hear about on the news only contribute to half of the tension and problems.
Its the other half that the news dont hear about that is really eating away the people.
Kanluwen wrote:That same information is published elsewhere(such as the BBC), quite often.
Just with y'know...actual facts, rather than Taiwan's take on the situation. Taiwan and China's media outlets both have a pretty hefty slant on events that make Fox News look like a credible source.
And by the by:
If you're going to delve into the OT Politics Realm...using foreign language citations and requiring someone to "babelfish it" is slightly ridiculous. Babelfish is at best, like someone with a slight stutter speaking to you.
At worst it's like the stereotypical image of the mentally disabled trying to explain physics to Einstein.
No of course not kan , but you can atleast read enough about it to know that im not just making things up , even if you understand 50% of the weird translation ,
you'll atleast be able to know , ok this and that happend , and why.
But you know kan , we both know this. But you arnt here for that either :')
And no , im not here for OF politics. Just someone that came from the epicenter of the problem , telling you things did happen.
To a few of you that claim it didnt happen.
Its nothing complicated really.
Why isnt it complicated? well just like a slow (me) trying to explain physics to einstein (you and shuma) of course i cannot
write down the formula and such. But just as effectively i can throw the stupid apple at your head and show you , thats
It's the translations themselves. They're being done by a machine, which doesn't differentiate contexts. It leads to ridiculous statements like "The Dolphinrockets is on high red." in the case of one translation I did ages ago on a German news report from 1946.
Spelling was correct, everything was a-okay. It's just the translation software is flawed at its core, because again--it's a machine.
Might as well grab your closest Taiwanese friend and have them help translate for you. Better yet, a professor or person who lived in the region gives you a better perspective than a layman who attempts to understand it from a media standpoint on the intrawebs.
Kanluwen wrote:It's not understanding that's the hard part.
It's the translations themselves. They're being done by a machine, which doesn't differentiate contexts. It leads to ridiculous statements like "The Dolphinrockets is on high red." in the case of one translation I did ages ago on a German news report from 1946.
Spelling was correct, everything was a-okay. It's just the translation software is flawed at its core, because again--it's a machine.
I can quickly translate some over all incidents to why the problem between the 2 sides still exists.
But the question is , will you 2 be willing to accept im telling the truth.
WarOne wrote:Might as well grab your closest Taiwanese friend and have them help translate for you. Better yet, a professor or person who lived in the region gives you a better perspective than a layman who attempts to understand it from a media standpoint on the intrawebs.
I dont think that will accomplish anything. Because from the look of it , no one is interested in the truth.
Only , the argument. Is what some live for.
Not my cup of tea , i told the truth , i provide a link with MORE than adequate amount of info , it links to every incident that happend.
Only problem , not in english. Oh well , believe in what you guys want , im done.
Oh , and im especially done because this is drifting away from the Korean topic.
which thanks to some of you .
LunaHound wrote: But the question is , will you 2 be willing to accept im telling the truth.
WarOne wrote:Might as well grab your closest Taiwanese friend and have them help translate for you. Better yet, a professor or person who lived in the region gives you a better perspective than a layman who attempts to understand it from a media standpoint on the intrawebs.
I dont think that will accomplish anything. Because from the look of it , no one is interested in the truth.
Only , the argument. Is what some live for. Not my cup of tea , i told the truth , i provide a link with MORE than adequate amount of info , it links to every incident that happend.
Only problem , not in english. Oh well , believe in what you guys want , im done.
By my own rationale, I disqualify myself from that example too. I'm not an expert on Sino-Taiwanese relationship nor do I have a complete understanding of the issues surrounding their uneasy truce. Suffice to say, a reputable source with great in-depth knowledge would be the most reasonable thing to look at (i.e. a scholar writing a peer-reviewed article in Foreign Affairs).
Kanluwen wrote:Can't speak for Shuma, but I wouldn't.
It's not a personal thing--I just don't know your level of fluency with the language, I don't know your personal opinions on the topic, etc etc.
I'd expect the same of anyone trying to get a "professional look" at any topic like this.
Fluency with Mandarin and Taiwanese , i can read newspaper ever since im 6.
But as you said , a professional look at topic like this , is not something i dived into kan.
I merely tell / report the info that you guys didnt think existed. Thats all.
LunaHound wrote:Fluency with Mandarin and Taiwanese , i can read newspaper ever since im 6.
But as you said , a professional look at topic like this , is not something i dived into kan.
I merely tell / report the info that you guys didnt think existed. Thats all.
What is your background in relation to China/Taiwan, Luna? I am intersted in knowing this if it helps me understand your perspective on the issue.
LunaHound wrote:Fluency with Mandarin and Taiwanese , i can read newspaper ever since im 6.
But as you said , a professional look at topic like this , is not something i dived into kan.
I merely tell / report the info that you guys didnt think existed. Thats all.
What is your background in relation to China/Taiwan, Luna? I am intersted in knowing this if it helps me understand your perspective on the issue.
Someone that "fled" taiwan , immigrated to Canada. Supposed to study here and carry out my family's companies if im fit to.
ATM all the chemical factories are hit majorly , the only thing still going strong are exports and imports that are rather decent since we are dealing with Japan.
Where do i stand? someone wondering if there is still a future in Taiwan , or rather , would it still be "Taiwan" when i get back.
Or end up as a part of China same way Hong Kong did.
However , im getting constantly yelled at because i seem to have caught the lazy relaxing vibe -_-
@kan , as i said , even though i iddnt chose to ( i only responded ) , never the less it seems its derailing from korean topic.
If you really do have interest in knowing more about taiwan and china relationship , i dont mind getting into details to why the 2 sides messed up so badly.
I use google chrome. It does that automatically and better than babelfish. More to the point though, It's not my burden to cite evidence for your claim. It's your job. Until you can do that, which you can't, you are essentially making baseless claims than demanding others do their research. It's something you do a lot.
Someone that "fled" taiwan , immigrated to Canada. Supposed to study here and carry out my family's companies if im fit to.
How old are you.
Where do i stand? someone wondering if there is still a future in Taiwan , or rather , would it still be "Taiwan" when i get back. Or end up as a part of China same way Hong Kong did.
Being given back by the british? Taiwans claims on independence are fairly thin in some areas, and economically and ethnically they aren't particularly separate anyway. It's to be expected though, taiwans population is rather small and they are just a few miles away from the most populous country on the planet. It's unlikely taiwan will continue to exist as it does now, being an uppity thorn in chinas side. Their government has been backing reconciliation and economic ties for years and it's the best road for them to go. Realistically if china wanted taiwan china could take taiwan, and taiwan doesn't help its people by attempting to exclude itself from chinese affairs.
I use google chrome. It does that automatically and better than babelfish. More to the point though, It's not my burden to cite evidence for your claim. It's your job. Until you can do that, which you can't, you are essentially making baseless claims than demanding others do their research. It's something you do a lot.
Thats the problem , its not baseless , but you chose to believe it is.
Hence , im done with you. Since this thread isnt about taiwan anyways.
Thats the problem wiith you shuma , you treat everything like its a debate of some sort ,
where i have to present this and that. And even when i did , its not to your liking.
Alright. I believe that does qualify LunaHound as someone more closely related to the matter than most of us chiding him/her for not believing the context of what he/she has been posting.
Well, on the issue of Taiwan, are you a person who believes in integration of Taiwan back into the PRC, or one who wishes for the separate existance of Taiwan independent of ties to China? If no either way, are you affirmed in the definiton of China and Taiwan relations know in legalspeak as "special relations between two areas within one state?"
WarOne wrote:Alright. I believe that does qualify LunaHound as someone more closely related to the matter than most of us chiding him/her for not believing the context of what he/she has been posting.
Well, on the issue of Taiwan, are you a person who believes in integration of Taiwan back into the PRC, or one who wishes for the separate existance of Taiwan independent of ties to China? If no either way, are you affirmed in the definiton of China and Taiwan relations know in legalspeak as "special relations between two areas within one state?"
Thats a good question. But its too late for Taiwan. The last president chen that actually cared of taiwan as an independant nation well , im sure you guys saw what happend last year.
Now our current president Ma is nothing but a sell out.
Our economy is long dead . All the smart companies already take their business to india or malay or thailand . When China was first "released" a bunch of major companies invested in china,
look what happend? all stabbed in the back and bankrupt.
The people have no faith anymore , its very smart what china did. Now they no longer have to pressure as via military , just promise us with some new trades and watch us
flock to it blindly. They'll flock to anything now.
I use google chrome. It does that automatically and better than babelfish. More to the point though, It's not my burden to cite evidence for your claim. It's your job. Until you can do that, which you can't, you are essentially making baseless claims than demanding others do their research. It's something you do a lot.
Thats the problem , its not baseless , but you chose to believe it is.
Hence , im done with you. Since this thread isnt about taiwan anyways. Thats the problem wiith you shuma , you treat everything like its a debate of some sort , where i have to present this and that. And even when i did , its not to your liking.
So again , too bad , for both of us.
I don't think you actually understand the concept of supporting evidence for claims made in debate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunaHound wrote:
WarOne wrote:Alright. I believe that does qualify LunaHound as someone more closely related to the matter than most of us chiding him/her for not believing the context of what he/she has been posting.
Well, on the issue of Taiwan, are you a person who believes in integration of Taiwan back into the PRC, or one who wishes for the separate existance of Taiwan independent of ties to China? If no either way, are you affirmed in the definiton of China and Taiwan relations know in legalspeak as "special relations between two areas within one state?"
Thats a good question. But its too late for Taiwan. The last president chen that actually cared of taiwan as an independant nation well , im sure you guys saw what happend last year. Now our current president Ma is nothing but a sell out.
Our economy is long dead . All the smart companies already take their business to india or malay or thailand . When China was first "released" a bunch of major companies invested in china, look what happend? all stabbed in the back and bankrupt.
The people have no faith anymore , its very smart what china did. Now they no longer have to pressure as via military , just promise us with some new trades and watch us flock to it blindly. They'll flock to anything now.
Why do you show allegiance to a flag over allegiance to the people that flag represents? When the path of least resistance seems more peaceful, prosperous, and easy why cling? China has 43 times the population of taiwan, thinks it owns it, has a military more than capable of simply walking in and taking it, and a level of economic control in the region sufficient to simply snuff the taiwanese economy out (not that it had many legs in a globalized world at this point anyway). So why bother? Chinese statehood would, at the very least, come with significant development money for taiwan.
Lunahound: Look at the wtf are pokemon buildings made of thread, made a post you might like.
Well, are there still Conservative-like elements in Taiwan that seek to divest itself from China entirely? That would be a bad scenario.
Does Taiwan have any other choices other than to invest itself more heavily with the PRC? I know there can be a turn around if they find the right niche in the world economy to make themselves become wanted again economically. Don't forget the United States still has a relationship with the country (depending on how much you consider the worth of that given the United State's penchant to listen to the PRC more closely).
WarOne wrote:Lunahound: Look at the wtf are pokemon buildings made of thread, made a post you might like.
Well, are there still Conservative-like elements in Taiwan that seek to divest itself from China entirely? That would be a bad scenario.
Does Taiwan have any other choices other than to invest itself more heavily with the PRC? I know there can be a turn around if they find the right niche in the world economy to make themselves become wanted again economically. Don't forget the United States still has a relationship with the country (depending on how much you consider the worth of that given the United State's penchant to listen to the PRC more closely).
We don't have all that special of a relationship. The limits of that relationship are with a 30 year old treaty stating that we would sell them weapons when asked, which we do, but which we probably won't do again after this last sale. Taiwan was an anticommunist domino we prepared in the event of war in asia, but it doesn't really have much relevance to the U.S. any more. It's actually kind of a thorn in our side at this point given that every concession we make to it enrages the chinese.
ShumaGorath wrote:We don't have all that special of a relationship. The limits of that relationship are with a 30 year old treaty stating that we would sell them weapons when asked, which we do, but which we probably won't do again after this last sale. Taiwan was an anticommunist domino we prepared in the event of war in asia, but it doesn't really have much relevance to the U.S. any more. It's actually kind of a thorn in our side at this point given that every concession we make to it enrages the chinese.
I blame college for the deterioration of our relationship with Taiwan. If it wasn't for the fact we saw things in absolute truths back in the Cold War, we wouldn't of opposed Communism as we did. Now with educated people saying it is okay for Communism because that part of the world has a different socio-historical context in which their society and government developed compared to ours, we would still be sending things to other nations in order to fight the Red Menace:
As it is, the weakening of our stance versus Communism arises from the context of our times: China is a global power challenging the old order of the last decade, and America is determined to get its own house in order rather than play the old role of Capitalist bully and protecter of American interests. We have the EU, the UN, and China to help deal with the rest of the world now. That means Taiwan and Israel and Eastern Europe are on the back side of our true interests at the moment.
Geez now that i typed a bunch of things , it died.
Are people more interested in the truth , or the process of debating ...
ShumaGorath wrote:I use google chrome. It does that automatically and better than babelfish. More to the point though, It's not my burden to cite evidence for your claim. It's your job. Until you can do that, which you can't, you are essentially making baseless claims than demanding others do their research. It's something you do a lot.
When someone tell you the truth , you can either chose to believe it or not. Not to mention links were provided , the only problem is you dont want to read it / translate it.
Why you treat this as some sort of court , well its what you do i guess
How old are you.
17
Being given back by the british? Taiwans claims on independence are fairly thin in some areas, and economically and ethnically they aren't particularly separate anyway. It's to be expected though, taiwans population is rather small and they are just a few miles away from the most populous country on the planet. It's unlikely taiwan will continue to exist as it does now, being an uppity thorn in chinas side. Their government has been backing reconciliation and economic ties for years and it's the best road for them to go. Realistically if china wanted taiwan china could take taiwan, and taiwan doesn't help its people by attempting to exclude itself from chinese affairs.
Thats what irks me , now you determine a nation's right to exist based on the number of its population? Thats just stupid. Taiwan's existence isnt a thorn to China ,
infact , why does it hurt china that we refuse to be a part of them? What? ego issues?
Taiwan have been independent and have been thriving just fine without China . Till of course they decided to give us a hard time for not complying.
Yes China can take Taiwan anytime they want , but why do you say it doesnt help Taiwan by excluding themselves from China? I mean sure , in the situation now it doesnt help,
but look who made it that way in the first place , China!
Soladrin wrote:It's not like I think it's a good thing, but there just doesn't seem to be much of a peaceful solution coming out of it.
Politics is complex and almost impossible to predict, and the politics of a place like North Korea are even harder to predict. It doesn't make for exciting movies so we don't often hear of the countries that were lucky enough to go from crappy dictatorships to functional democracies but it does happen. South Korea is actually a pretty good example.
Really, all we can do at this point is contain, hope that violence doesn't break out and hope that in time situations will open up that'll allow peaceful change.
And the nuking is an exaggeration, sorry for that. IMO nukes shouldn't even exist.
Thats the problem , its not baseless , but you chose to believe it is.
This all came down because you said that china was shooting missiles at taiwan. To support yourself you showed how they tested a few in the straight between the two nations. Considering firing a missile into another country is an aggressive act of war it's a very serious matter. One that would be well documented. And one that has not been documented.
Thats what irks me , now you determine a nation's right to exist based on the number of its population? Thats just stupid. Taiwan's existence isnt a thorn to China ,
infact , why does it hurt china that we refuse to be a part of them? What? ego issues?
What right does any nation have to actually exist? Nations are just governmental boundries. We don't chose what countries we are born into. Taiwan is a thorn in chinas side because Chang decided to flee to there with the remains of his forces and because taiwan is a breakaway province of china (and japan!).
Hmmm, been reading up on the Cold War and the early foundations of Communist China. Basically, Taiwan is that little spot of China that the PRC "missed".
Emperors Faithful wrote:Hmmm, been reading up on the Cold War and the early foundations of Communist China. Basically, Taiwan is that little spot of China that the PRC "missed".
One of my absolute favourite bits of history is Taiwan being considered the government of China by the UN from 1949 until 1971, meaning they had a permanent position on the security council and veto power. They even used their veto once, to block Mongolia's entry into the UN - as they considered Mongolia part of China and therefore part of their own country. Because, of course, Taiwan still thinks of China as part of their rightful lands.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Hmmm, been reading up on the Cold War and the early foundations of Communist China. Basically, Taiwan is that little spot of China that the PRC "missed".
One of my absolute favourite bits of history is Taiwan being considered the government of China by the UN from 1949 until 1971, meaning they had a permanent position on the security council and veto power. They even used their veto once, to block Mongolia's entry into the UN - as they considered Mongolia part of China and therefore part of their own country. Because, of course, Taiwan still thinks of China as part of their rightful lands.
I know. And the fact that the US failed to recognise China as a country for the better part of a couple of decades. Do the Taiwanese (or whatever) still think of themselves as the rightful rulers of China?
Also, just really OT, I find it very disturbing that Eisenhower was willing to resort to using Nuclear Weapons over that little shelling incident in the 50s.
I dated an absolutely smoking girl from Taiwan, and she absolutely hated the Chinese. Used to go on about it all the time, much to my amusement.
Anyway, due to me liking her so much (and not wanting to agree with Shuma) and the Chinese just being.. generally nasty (did you guys hear about the tigers they starved to death btw? Brutal!)
ShumaGorath wrote:
What right does any nation have to actually exist? Nations are just governmental boundries. We don't chose what countries we are born into. Taiwan is a thorn in chinas side because Chang decided to flee to there with the remains of his forces and because taiwan is a breakaway province of china (and japan!).
Shuma, regardless of the argument over missile incidents, you're starting to come across as very high handed here. Luna appears to be patriotic to her nation, and to have sufficent reason to dislike the Chinese. If you started ragging on mattrm or albatross or myself for being patriotic, you'd get called out for it. You're starting to strike me here as having a go at Luna simply because you think you can get away with a cheap free shot.
On top of that, as someone actually from that region, I'm more inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Chinese/Taiwanese relations, rather than relying on whatever the media may or may not have to say on the matter. I lived in Zimbabwe for a few years, and I know damn well the global media often doesn't have a clue what's really going on half the time.
ShumaGorath wrote:Why do you show allegiance to a flag over allegiance to the people that flag represents? When the path of least resistance seems more peaceful, prosperous, and easy why cling? China has 43 times the population of taiwan, thinks it owns it, has a military more than capable of simply walking in and taking it, and a level of economic control in the region sufficient to simply snuff the taiwanese economy out (not that it had many legs in a globalized world at this point anyway). So why bother? Chinese statehood would, at the very least, come with significant development money for taiwan.
I know this was not directed at me, but I absolutely hate the american people (I am an american). To me(and I do include myself in this category), we have all become a very lazy, uncaring, celebrity centered society where everyone turns a blind eye to anything that doesnt happen to them. Have you ever noticed that no one gives a damn about any desease until a celebrity/athlete dies from it, and then everyone pours money into it, but no one cares about Timmy Too-late who just died of the same desease down the street. We don't care about the facts unless they serve our causes anymore, either.
I hate the american people, but god help me if I say anything about the american flag/Ideals. I would give my dying breath to defend that flag, because I beleive in a free world, where if someone wants to give money to a cause because a celebrity dies, they can do it. A place where if people want to gourge themselves on a food eating contest, they can, even if they are living right next to some starving kid with only a loaf of bread to keep him going until next paycheck. A flag does not represent "A People", it represents "An Ideal". There is a big difference.
"The problem with the past of least resistance is that it seldom leads beyond your front door".
Imagine, if you will, what would have happened if George Washington and Co. had taken the path of least resistance two hundred years ago. "Americans" would be drinking tea and eating crumpets. We would not be the powerhouse we are today, and the reprocussions from that would have been immense. Europe would be speaking German and the Jews would be all dead. You go ahead and take the path of least resistance, but I, like my great great grandfather John Hancock, will not if thats what it takes to protect that flag.
/endrant
P.S. Tai food is simply AMAZING!
P.S.S. wierd, it made my post seem like shuma made it
Khornholio wrote:This is nothing new. The North Koreans butchered a bunch of guys in the DMZ with axes during the 60s. I can"t remember if the victims were ROK army or US army, but the North Koreans showed up in a truck and hacked a bunch of guys up.
US army that were clearing from an area that the NKs mislabelled as part of their turf, and not the actual DMZ.
ShumaGorath wrote:Why do you show allegiance to a flag over allegiance to the people that flag represents? When the path of least resistance seems more peaceful, prosperous, and easy why cling? China has 43 times the population of taiwan, thinks it owns it, has a military more than capable of simply walking in and taking it, and a level of economic control in the region sufficient to simply snuff the taiwanese economy out (not that it had many legs in a globalized world at this point anyway). So why bother? Chinese statehood would, at the very least, come with significant development money for taiwan.
I know this was not directed at me, but I absolutely hate the american people (I am an american). To me(and I do include myself in this category), we have all become a very lazy, uncaring, celebrity centered society where everyone turns a blind eye to anything that doesnt happen to them. Have you ever noticed that no one gives a damn about any desease until a celebrity/athlete dies from it, and then everyone pours money into it, but no one cares about Timmy Too-late who just died of the same desease down the street. We don't care about the facts unless they serve our causes anymore, either.
I hate the american people, but god help me if I say anything about the american flag/Ideals. I would give my dying breath to defend that flag, because I beleive in a free world, where if someone wants to give money to a cause because a celebrity dies, they can do it. A place where if people want to gourge themselves on a food eating contest, they can, even if they are living right next to some starving kid with only a loaf of bread to keep him going until next paycheck. A flag does not represent "A People", it represents "An Ideal". There is a big difference.
"The problem with the past of least resistance is that it seldom leads beyond your front door".
Imagine, if you will, what would have happened if George Washington and Co. had taken the path of least resistance two hundred years ago. "Americans" would be drinking tea and eating crumpets. We would not be the powerhouse we are today, and the reprocussions from that would have been immense. Europe would be speaking German and the Jews would be all dead. You go ahead and take the path of least resistance, but I, like my great great grandfather John Hancock, will not if thats what it takes to protect that flag.
/endrant
P.S. Tai food is simply AMAZING!
P.S.S. wierd, it made my post seem like shuma made it
P.S.S.S. ok, thats just frustrating
I'd still be eating Tex Mex and would have a bad Spanish accent vs. a bad Texan accent.
Frazzled wrote:
I'd still be eating Tex Mex and would have a bad Spanish accent vs. a bad Texan accent.
That'd be your right, though you have to promise me to keep a record of all the snappy combacks you and your friends came up with during that...... debate.
your sig, especially that last part, got a chuckle out of me, btw.
Dude that is hard core. Note to self don't tick off SK special forces dudes....ever.
In addition, a 64-man ROK special forces company accompanied them, armed with clubs and trained in Tae Kwon Do, supposedly without firearms. However, once they parked their trucks near the Bridge of No Return, they started throwing out the sandbags that lined the truck bottoms, and handing out M-16 rifles and M-79 grenade launchers that had been concealed below.[1] Several of the special forces men also had Claymore mines strapped to their chests with the firing mechanism in their hands, and were shouting at the North Koreans to cross the bridge.[10][11]
Shuma, regardless of the argument over missile incidents, you're starting to come across as very high handed here. Luna appears to be patriotic to her nation, and to have sufficent reason to dislike the Chinese. If you started ragging on mattrm or albatross or myself for being patriotic, you'd get called out for it. You're starting to strike me here as having a go at Luna simply because you think you can get away with a cheap free shot.
I rarely understand patriotism as a virtue. More often than not it's a character trait that exists beyond logic or forethought. Sometimes it leads to nice happy feelings and the courage to do good for a nation, but than thats relative and I'm sure a palestinian and isreali patriot both love their country just as much as one another while their killing eachothers children. Taiwanese patriotism is such a case, there is very little to be gained by taiwan being antagonistic towards china, nor at this point is there much reason to do much other than simply integrate economically and attempt to maintain democratic independence (as they are currently doing).
On top of that, as someone actually from that region, I'm more inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Chinese/Taiwanese relations, rather than relying on whatever the media may or may not have to say on the matter. I lived in Zimbabwe for a few years, and I know damn well the global media often doesn't have a clue what's really going on half the time.
And when you claim that china has been firing missiles at zimbabwe for years I'll say you're just as misinformed.
I know this was not directed at me, but I absolutely hate the american people (I am an american). To me(and I do include myself in this category), we have all become a very lazy, uncaring, celebrity centered society where everyone turns a blind eye to anything that doesnt happen to them. Have you ever noticed that no one gives a damn about any desease until a celebrity/athlete dies from it, and then everyone pours money into it, but no one cares about Timmy Too-late who just died of the same desease down the street. We don't care about the facts unless they serve our causes anymore, either.
Thats the human condition. It's not like it's ever been much different anywhere else. We care about causes we are invested in, and humans love to worship heros and gossip about fools.
I hate the american people, but god help me if I say anything about the american flag/Ideals. I would give my dying breath to defend that flag, because I beleive in a free world, where if someone wants to give money to a cause because a celebrity dies, they can do it. A place where if people want to gourge themselves on a food eating contest, they can, even if they are living right next to some starving kid with only a loaf of bread to keep him going until next paycheck. A flag does not represent "A People", it represents "An Ideal". There is a big difference.
And yet you don't give your life to defend the people in offshore prisons, the people in the buildings we bomb, and the people in prison that we jailed. That Ideal is absolutely relative. No one jumped to the defense of blacks in the tuskeegee experiments until long after, and we had slaves for quite a long time here in this glorious nation of freedom.
"The problem with the past of least resistance is that it seldom leads beyond your front door".
It requires greater courage to preserve inner freedom, to move on in one's inward journey into new realms, than to stand defiantly for outer freedom. It is often easier to play the martyr, as it is to be rash in battle.
Imagine, if you will, what would have happened if George Washington and Co. had taken the path of least resistance two hundred years ago. "Americans" would be drinking tea and eating crumpets. We would not be the powerhouse we are today, and the reprocussions from that would have been immense. Europe would be speaking German and the Jews would be all dead. You go ahead and take the path of least resistance, but I, like my great great grandfather John Hancock, will not if thats what it takes to protect that flag.
And imagine if you will what might have happened to the native americans had they opted to integrate into european colonies and adopt a new American way of life. Not everything is so cut and dry. Now is it?
Frazzled wrote:Dude that is hard core. Note to self don't tick off SK special forces dudes....ever.
In addition, a 64-man ROK special forces company accompanied them, armed with clubs and trained in Tae Kwon Do, supposedly without firearms. However, once they parked their trucks near the Bridge of No Return, they started throwing out the sandbags that lined the truck bottoms, and handing out M-16 rifles and M-79 grenade launchers that had been concealed below.[1] Several of the special forces men also had Claymore mines strapped to their chests with the firing mechanism in their hands, and were shouting at the North Koreans to cross the bridge.[10][11]
Yeah, I've met the modern equivalent of those guys and they are about as hardcore as you can get. Watch the movie Silmido (http://www.mediacircus.net/silmido.html).
Thats the human condition. It's not like it's ever been much different anywhere else. We care about causes we are invested in, and humans love to worship heros and gossip about fools.
There is a total differnece between heroes who save lives, and heroes who have to act like other heroes. People like Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp (as cool as he be), and John Travolta do NOT compare to people like Leonidas, Beowulf, and King Arthur. And before you say that those are myths, ALL myth is based in fact.
And yet you don't give your life to defend the people in offshore prisons, the people in the buildings we bomb, and the people in prison that we jailed. That Ideal is absolutely relative. No one jumped to the defense of blacks in the tuskeegee experiments until long after, and we had slaves for quite a long time here in this glorious nation of freedom.
Seriously? The people in offshore prisons? you mean the murderers, the rapists, the insane, and all the other people like that? Why the HELL would I defend a people to whom life has no value? As for the people WE bomb? Did you ever hear about 9-11? I have no sympathy for those we bomb. As for tuskeegee, I do not even know what that is, no comment. As for the black slaves, that was something I was not around to fight, and so can not fight for it. However, I would like to say (mostly because you said "Black slaves", instead of just "slaves") that it is NOT completely on white peoples shoulders about the black slaves, The early colonists got BLACK slaves by trading weapons and munitions to other BLACKS
"The problem with the past of least resistance is that it seldom leads beyond your front door".
It requires greater courage to preserve inner freedom, to move on in one's inward journey into new realms, than to stand defiantly for outer freedom. It is often easier to play the martyr, as it is to be rash in battle.
Well, someone has to be a coward, I guess it will be me.
And imagine if you will what might have happened to the native americans had they opted to integrate into european colonies and adopt a new American way of life. Not everything is so cut and dry. Now is it?
Then we wouldnt have people saying "This was my land, you can't touch it". The beauty of America is the melting pot, we assimilate cultures into our own. If someone wants to fight to avoid becoming a part of a larger culture, then they, and they ALONE must pay that price. Haveing said that, If I were in their shoes back then, I would have done the same thing. You can have my freedom, family, and possessions when you pry them from my cold dead hands.
Thats the human condition. It's not like it's ever been much different anywhere else. We care about causes we are invested in, and humans love to worship heros and gossip about fools.
There is a total differnece between heroes who save lives, and heroes who have to act like other heroes. People like Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp (as cool as he be), and John Travolta do NOT compare to people like Leonidas, Beowulf, and King Arthur. And before you say that those are myths, ALL myth is based in fact.
And yet you don't give your life to defend the people in offshore prisons, the people in the buildings we bomb, and the people in prison that we jailed. That Ideal is absolutely relative. No one jumped to the defense of blacks in the tuskeegee experiments until long after, and we had slaves for quite a long time here in this glorious nation of freedom.
Seriously? The people in offshore prisons? you mean the murderers, the rapists, the insane, and all the other people like that? Why the HELL would I defend a people to whom life has no value? As for the people WE bomb? Did you ever hear about 9-11? I have no sympathy for those we bomb. As for tuskeegee, I do not even know what that is, no comment. As for the black slaves, that was something I was not around to fight, and so can not fight for it. However, I would like to say (mostly because you said "Black slaves", instead of just "slaves") that it is NOT completely on white peoples shoulders about the black slaves, The early colonists got BLACK slaves by trading weapons and munitions to other BLACKS
"The problem with the past of least resistance is that it seldom leads beyond your front door".
It requires greater courage to preserve inner freedom, to move on in one's inward journey into new realms, than to stand defiantly for outer freedom. It is often easier to play the martyr, as it is to be rash in battle.
Well, someone has to be a coward, I guess it will be me.
And imagine if you will what might have happened to the native americans had they opted to integrate into european colonies and adopt a new American way of life. Not everything is so cut and dry. Now is it?
Then we wouldnt have people saying "This was my land, you can't touch it". The beauty of America is the melting pot, we assimilate cultures into our own. If someone wants to fight to avoid becoming a part of a larger culture, then they, and they ALONE must pay that price. Haveing said that, If I were in their shoes back then, I would have done the same thing. You can have my freedom, family, and possessions when you pry them from my cold dead hands.
First, smooth move equating the mentally ill with murderers and rapists. Second, since the US uses 9/11 to justify hellholes like Abu Ghraib and Gitmo, does that mean that, using the same logic, the Vietnamese can claim the Hanoi Hilton was justified? Third, there are innocents in prison. No judicial system is flawless.
Fourth, the Tuskgee experiment was basically a forty year long study about the effects on syphillis on blacks. Doesn't sound so bad? The subjects had no choice, and even after treatments became available doctors were ordered not to treat them. Incidentally, that little stunt violated the Nuremburg Laws that the US had set up. Fifth, the system of slavery used in the US was different to older forms of slavery where one could escape their position. Sixth, at least you admit it.
Seventh, WE ARE BORG RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
There is a total differnece between heroes who save lives, and heroes who have to act like other heroes. People like Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp (as cool as he be), and John Travolta do NOT compare to people like Leonidas, Beowulf, and King Arthur. And before you say that those are myths, ALL myth is based in fact.
Beowulf likely didn't exist and killed a lot of people. Leonidas was likely a douche and killed a lot of people. King arthur.. Well you see where I'm going with this. Historical heroes are typically war heroes cast in a good light by their own kingdoms if they existed. Sparta was a hellhole that killed babies with institutionalized murder and slavery. We have few modern heroes because we've lost our belief in the immortal and in the honor of a clean kill.
eriously? The people in offshore prisons? you mean the murderers, the rapists, the insane, and all the other people like that? Why the HELL would I defend a people to whom life has no value?
Because a majority of the people in gitmo are released after having never been charged and a good percentage of the total population at any single time has been totally innocent. Look up the uighers for instance.
Did you ever hear about 9-11? I have no sympathy for those we bomb.
Yep. All those Iraqis that did 9/11.
As for tuskeegee, I do not even know what that is, no comment.
The U.S. government tested syphilis on blacks for years without telling them. Look it up.
As for the black slaves, that was something I was not around to fight, and so can not fight for it. However, I would like to say (mostly because you said "Black slaves", instead of just "slaves") that it is NOT completely on white peoples shoulders about the black slaves, The early colonists got BLACK slaves by trading weapons and munitions to other BLACKS
Who cares. Were talking about america, not moon country. America. Land of immutable freedoms guaranteed by our glorious forefathers.
Well, someone has to be a coward, I guess it will be me.
Good to know your willing to lay down your life for a cause you haven't thought out or actually understand.
Then we wouldnt have people saying "This was my land, you can't touch it". The beauty of America is the melting pot, we assimilate cultures into our own. If someone wants to fight to avoid becoming a part of a larger culture, then they, and they ALONE must pay that price. Haveing said that, If I were in their shoes back then, I would have done the same thing. You can have my freedom, family, and possessions when you pry them from my cold dead hands.
It's totally cool to kill them. They didn't want to be in the melting pot. If I was around back then I would have fought for my home to avoid the melting pot! YOU CAN HAVE MY FREEDOM WHEN YOU PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!
Also, to all the gakkers bleating on about how freedom is so great: You're right. Freedom IS great. That's why I want freedom of speech. Freedom of religion. The right to bear arms (incidentally, since part of its intent was to keep the BIG BAD GUBBERMINT afraid, are you allowed tanks and personal nuclear devices? ). The freedom to cut medicines with glass and bleach. The right to own people as property. The right to shoot people I don't like. The freedom of the poor to feth off and die when live deals them a naff hand.
"Every man holds his property subject to the general right of the community to regulate its use to whatever degree the public welfare may require it." -Theodore Roosevelt
Corvus wrote:This thread= almost derailed. Thanks to Frazzled and agnosto for keeping up the Korea discussion.
So question for everyone: who do you all think would win in a fight, North Korea or the US/South Korea?
My money is on an initial North Korean victory, followed by stalemate and eventual collapse when their supplies run out and they lose the initiative.
You mean the thread that was started with a three day old news story that was incorrectly understood by the poster, and that has never been about reality? That thread? No one has discussed the actual events that occurred once in this thread outside of my posting of a more up to date news story that was immediately ignored.
Corvus wrote:This thread= almost derailed. Thanks to Frazzled and agnosto for keeping up the Korea discussion.
So question for everyone: who do you all think would win in a fight, North Korea or the US/South Korea?
My money is on an initial North Korean victory, followed by stalemate and eventual collapse when their supplies run out and they lose the initiative.
You mean the thread that was started with a three day old news story that was incorrectly understood by the poster, and that has never been about reality? That thread? No one has discussed the actual events that occurred once in this thread outside of my posting of a more up to date news story that was immediately ignored.
I was discussing Korea, which is a whole lot more on topic than this random philosophical debate that has sprung up. I know damn well that a South Korean ship exploding is not going to reignite the Korean War, North Korean mine or not. It's going to take a HELL of a lot more than that. I was joining in Frazzled and agnosto's discussion of Korean (north and south) military capabilities, because I would rather not get involved in a philosophical flame war. I know you love to debate/argue/etc, but trust me, that's not what I'm looking for, so leave me out of it.
Corvus wrote:This thread= almost derailed. Thanks to Frazzled and agnosto for keeping up the Korea discussion.
So question for everyone: who do you all think would win in a fight, North Korea or the US/South Korea?
My money is on an initial North Korean victory, followed by stalemate and eventual collapse when their supplies run out and they lose the initiative.
You mean the thread that was started with a three day old news story that was incorrectly understood by the poster, and that has never been about reality? That thread? No one has discussed the actual events that occurred once in this thread outside of my posting of a more up to date news story that was immediately ignored.
I was discussing Korea, which is a whole lot more on topic than this random philosophical debate that has sprung up. I know damn well that a South Korean ship exploding is not going to reignite the Korean War, North Korean mine or not. It's going to take a HELL of a lot more than that. I was joining in Frazzled and agnosto's discussion of Korean (north and south) military capabilities, because I would rather not get involved in a philosophical flame war. I know you love to debate/argue/etc, but trust me, that's not what I'm looking for, so leave me out of it.
I suppose it is tangentially more related than what we were discussing. In reference, north korea would sweep foreward, take south koreas capitol, then get driven slowly back as it would have to pillage for supplies, has no useful vehicular support, and has absolutely no air combat capability while the U.S. has by far the most powerful air force on the planet and by a good stretch the most powerful fleet as well. The north korean military is a joke, and only dangerous by virtue of proximity. It can crush by weight of numbers anything it's forces can jog too before the U.S. musters a counteroffensive.
Oh, and china would immediately invade them if they tried anything.
I suppose it is tangentially more related than what we were discussing. In reference, north korea would sweep foreward, take south koreas capitol, then get driven slowly back as it would have to pillage for supplies, has no useful vehicular support, and has absolutely no air combat capability while the U.S. has by far the most powerful air force on the planet and by a good stretch the most powerful fleet as well. The north korean military is a joke, and only dangerous by virtue of proximity. It can crush by weight of numbers anything it's forces can jog too before the U.S. musters a counteroffensive.
Oh, and china would immediately invade them if they tried anything.
That is a very good assessment. Their formidable landbased firepower is slowed by a lack of mobility and effective air support. It doesnt help that the rugged terrain in Korea prevents effective use of modern long ranged SAM systems (SA-5/SA-10, etc) so their ground forces would be completely at the mercy of US/South Korean airpower.
And yes, China can pretty much pull the plug on North Korea at any given moment (and then probably annex it)
Beowulf likely didn't exist and killed a lot of people. Leonidas was likely a douche and killed a lot of people. King arthur.. Well you see where I'm going with this. Historical heroes are typically war heroes cast in a good light by their own kingdoms if they existed. Sparta was a hellhole that killed babies with institutionalized murder and slavery. We have few modern heroes because we've lost our belief in the immortal and in the honor of a clean kill.
To the bold: are you fecking kidding? Beowulf, while he probably did not swim in a 7 day race, while killing a kraken in one hand while eating with the other, existed and was a great warrior, or a collection of warriors. Leonidas, of course Leonidas killed lots of people. He was a warrior. King Arthur...... seriously? He existed, because someone named Arthur DID exist, and he DID do great things. Did he converse with the Lady in the Lake? doubtfull.
George Washington killed alot of people, is he a bad man? Abraham lincoln killed the most people in U.S. History, considering he waged a war on his own country, and yet is still refered to as one of our greatest presidents. Leo, Arty, and Wulf are heroes because they stood up for what they beleived in. Not because of a body count.
btw, how can you not exist and kill lots of people? The logic just doesnt add up.....
Because a majority of the people in gitmo are released after having never been charged and a good percentage of the total population at any single time has been totally innocent. Look up the uighers for instance.
Then in that respect, we have failed. However, you should be more specific, because by "offshore prisons" I thought you meant a place like Alkatraz.
Yep. All those Iraqis that did 9/11.
Yep. Because Al-quada definatly includes all Iraqis.
The U.S. government tested syphilis on blacks for years without telling them. Look it up.
Will have to.
Who cares. Were talking about america, not moon country. America. Land of immutable freedoms guaranteed by our glorious forefathers.
Well, if that is the case, Oh how terrible America is! Enslaveing people is SOOOOOOOO much worse than the old Soviet Union Starving 10 million people to death in 1 year, or the German Concentration camps. What was I thinking?
When you look at our past compared to alot of the world's other super powers, we have a pretty clean record, considering. Having said that, yes, it was bad that there were slaves. But, I do not owe them anything. I was not enslaving them, I have not persecuted them, and I have not EVER looked at anyone and made a comment about their skin color (unless its a girl with a tan RAWR!), whereas you see all sorts of name calling, not in the past, but right now, what with it being "yo, Ni#@$, whats up?" "Youse just a cra$@%, man"
Good to know your willing to lay down your life for a cause you haven't thought out or actually understand.
Good to know your enjoying the rights I am willing to lay down my life to provide
It's totally cool to kill them. They didn't want to be in the melting pot. If I was around back then I would have fought for my home to avoid the melting pot! YOU CAN HAVE MY FREEDOM WHEN YOU PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!
What
I said, that anytime any group of people goes against a stronger group of people, they have to be willing to accept the consequences of losing. If we, Americans, had lost, we would have all been hanged, and we knew it. We were, and are, willing to do die for it. If someone else, say China, were to invade, occupy, and defeat the U.S.A. We would be going against a stronger government, much like the natives did. I am saying, I would fight, just as the natives did, to keep my way of life alive. But I would not go begging and bitching for a handout every chance I got.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ShumaGorath wrote:
I suppose it is tangentially more related than what we were discussing. In reference, north korea would sweep foreward, take south koreas capitol, then get driven slowly back as it would have to pillage for supplies, has no useful vehicular support, and has absolutely no air combat capability while the U.S. has by far the most powerful air force on the planet and by a good stretch the most powerful fleet as well. The north korean military is a joke, and only dangerous by virtue of proximity. It can crush by weight of numbers anything it's forces can jog too before the U.S. musters a counteroffensive.
Oh, and china would immediately invade them if they tried anything.
The problem with that scenario, is that 2 times in modern history has a "Joke Military" defeated "The most powerful XXX on the planet"
Yes like i said , lets ignore what the whole populace of Taiwan worry about every day ,
just because an internet forum jockey couldnt find a link acceptable to him.
Its not about patriotism , i can care less about flags and borders.
I was just rather insulted and found it ridiculous to be told something didnt happen because a guy didn't know the incidents happen.
Not to mention how often China fires missile into Taiwan Straight where the fishing areas are , like few times a year?
Oh or does it not count if it doesnt land onTaiwan the land itself?
Missile tests are not the same thing as shooting a missile at someone. If you hadn't already told us your age I would assume you were an eight year old with thinking that simplistic.
I was just rather insulted and found it ridiculous to be told something didnt happen because a guy didn't know the incidents happen.
Are you saying that I didn't know about missiles being test fired? or about missiles being shot at taiwan? One thing happened (The tests) the others didn't (missiles actually being shot at taiwan). I was well aware of one and the other is fake. Maybe you need to learn the difference between an aggressively postured weapons test over the ocean and a deadly and aggressive act of war against another nation.
Missiles are fired into isreal from palestine. Missiles are fired at afghanistan from american jets. Taiwan isn't at the bottom of the straight, and thats all the chinese missiles were hitting.
ShumaGorath wrote:Missile tests are not the same thing as shooting a missile at someone. If you hadn't already told us your age I would assume you were an eight year old with thinking that simplistic.
I was just rather insulted and found it ridiculous to be told something didnt happen because a guy didn't know the incidents happen.
Are you saying that I didn't know about missiles being test fired? or about missiles being shot at taiwan? One thing happened (The tests) the others didn't (missiles actually being shot at taiwan). I was well aware of one and the other is fake. Maybe you need to learn the difference between an aggressively postured weapons test over the ocean and a deadly and aggressive act of war against another nation.
Missiles are fired into isreal from palestine.
Missiles are fired at afghanistan from american jets.
Taiwan isn't at the bottom of the straight, and thats all the chinese missiles were hitting.
When you aim missiles towards a country , as "tests" you would have to be an 8 year old to think that its only a "test"
I would like to see china "test" its missile towards USA , and i want to see if you can relax on your chair telling the rest of the americans
"relax guys , its just a missile test , it hasnt actually landed on US soil yet , JUST EVERYWHERE AROUND USA , so no need to be worried "
ShumaGorath wrote:Missile tests are not the same thing as shooting a missile at someone. If you hadn't already told us your age I would assume you were an eight year old with thinking that simplistic.
I was just rather insulted and found it ridiculous to be told something didnt happen because a guy didn't know the incidents happen.
Are you saying that I didn't know about missiles being test fired? or about missiles being shot at taiwan? One thing happened (The tests) the others didn't (missiles actually being shot at taiwan). I was well aware of one and the other is fake. Maybe you need to learn the difference between an aggressively postured weapons test over the ocean and a deadly and aggressive act of war against another nation.
Missiles are fired into isreal from palestine.
Missiles are fired at afghanistan from american jets.
Taiwan isn't at the bottom of the straight, and thats all the chinese missiles were hitting.
When you aim missiles towards a country , as "tests" you would have to be an 8 year old to think that its only a "test"
I would like to see china "test" its missile towards USA , and i want to see if you can relax on your chair telling the rest of the americans
"relax guys , its just a missile test , it hasnt actually landed on US soil yet , JUST EVERYWHERE AROUND USA , so no need to be worried "
A Plate of Winsteak, Covered in Wingravy, with a side of Winfries
When you aim missiles towards a country , as "tests" you would have to be an 8 year old to think that its only a "test"
I would like to see china "test" its missile towards USA , and i want to see if you can relax on your chair telling the rest of the americans "relax guys , its just a missile test , it hasnt actually landed on US soil yet , JUST EVERYWHERE AROUND USA , so no need to be worried "
See? You understand the idea of posturing. You just need to divorce it from the idea of an actual attack. Until you can do that you're not going to understand international politics very well.
A Plate of Winsteak, Covered in Wingravy, with a side of Winfries
The problem with that scenario, is that 2 times in modern history has a "Joke Military" defeated "The most powerful XXX on the planet"
1: The Revolutionary War 2: The FIRST Korean War
and Btw, China is on N. Korea's side
Just to cover both at once. China is not on north koreas side. China has been repeatedly condemning them about their nuclear programme, and the PRC absolutely hates north korea. What they don't want is north korea to collapse and have several million refugees spill over their border in the event of a total korean collapse or all out war. That would be very difficult for china to handle. As for the revolutionary and Korean wars, firstly we had allies in the revolutionary war and they had to fight it over a very large ocean before the invention of the motor. Secondly who won the first korean war exactly?
You should probably try and pay attention to reality before throwing your accolades around.
Shuma , i'll bet you anything you want , the moment China "tests" its missile at an general direction towards USA , the population will respond OMG NUKE CHINA NOW!!!!!
ShumaGorath wrote:
When you aim missiles towards a country , as "tests" you would have to be an 8 year old to think that its only a "test"
I would like to see china "test" its missile towards USA , and i want to see if you can relax on your chair telling the rest of the americans
"relax guys , its just a missile test , it hasnt actually landed on US soil yet , JUST EVERYWHERE AROUND USA , so no need to be worried "
See? You understand the idea of posturing. You just need to divorce it from the idea of an actual attack. Until you can do that you're not going to understand international politics very well.
Its a shame , that you relate an attack as a physical element.
What about attack on human rights and TW economy?
Or are death tolls the only thing that you can keep track of in your book?
I would still like to see if you can be naive enough to say if china shoots missle around USA it'll be considered posturing , and not elevate to a nuclear response from USA
but the difference you say? well TW isnt USA
This is why the world can never have peace , because of people like you.
Sitting on the chair saying nothing has happened because China hasnt hit any solid target yet.
While you ignore the population freaked out both mentally and our economy just drop and drop by each "test" missile fired.
You tell me i can understand the ideas? well its my turn to tell you.
There is more than one way to kill a Nation , China is doing a great job killing Taiwan atm.
Of course it doesnt count in your book because its not an actual declared war.
Its depressing really.
Wait , talking about 8 year olds , hasnt there been something similar in Star Wars Phantom Menace?
Like... the Driods have a giant blockade around naboo?
Also , i was abit confused to how it escalated into this , so i did the right thing and went back to double check what you posted:
ShumaGorath wrote:So they test fired short range missiles in the straight fifteen years ago. How does that mean they've been shooting missile at taiwan for years? Also while it's kind of you to post a link on basic taiwanese history, it's better to actually say something in reference to the question you were asked. That link didn't answer his question.
The whole thing was showing you it wasnt just 15 years ago.
Its a shame , that you relate an attack as a physical element.
Oddly enough so does international law.
What about attack on human rights and TW economy? Or are death tolls the only thing that you can keep track of in your book?
The taiwanese economy is suffering from chinese manufacturing to be certain. Though in fairness SO IS EVERY OTHER COUNTRY ON THE PLANET. Maybe the taiwanese "Miracle" should have diversified before 2001 when it all started to fall apart. Japan and germany held on because they produced quality products and innovated, why did taiwan expect to survive by making crap on the cheap when indonesia, china, and africa could logically do it better and soon would. China isn't solely to blame here. As for human rights, how is china attacking taiwans human rights?
I would still like to see if you can be naive enough to say if china shoots missle around USA it'll be considered posturing , and not elevate to a nuclear response from USA but the difference you say? well TW isnt USA
Well since they have nuclear missiles capable of hitting us already a symbolic test isn't really meaningful. Though you're quite right, people would flip their gak if china did that. You know what the difference is? We could actually fight china in a war, meaning our response to such an act would be far different from taiwans. You know what japan did when north korea test fired missiles in their direction? They didn't call it an attack, but they understood the underlying implications of the act.
Please. Try actually understanding the meanings behind acts without inaccurately labeling them. A missile test towards america from china would not elevate to a nuclear response, that would be utterly idiotic. It would however be internationally condemned and would set the U.S. and Europe on a war footing.
LunaHound wrote:Finish quoting the rest shuma ,you evil sith
I'm not sure what else you want me to quote
This is why the world can never have peace , because of people like you. Sitting on the chair saying nothing has happened because China hasnt hit any solid target yet. While you ignore the population freaked out both mentally and our economy just drop and drop by each "test" missile fired.
Actually if everyone were like me all wars would have ended. It's precisely because people aren't like me that moral absolutists and patriots throw the world into war time and time again to avenge sleights however artificial and meaningless. Also if you think the missile tests have anything to do with taiwans economic issues than you don't really understand taiwans economic issues.
You tell me i can understand the ideas? well its my turn to tell you. There is more than one way to kill a Nation , China is doing a great job killing Taiwan atm. Of course it doesnt count in your book because its not an actual declared war.
No, it doesn't count because you haven't really said much about it and the actual reality of the matter is that taiwan is killing taiwan economically. China is just mopping up by absorbing taiwanese manufacturing firms. So is indonesia, but no one likes to blame them. It's actually kind of funny, people in america used to blame taiwan for killing the american manufacturing economy. It's a scapegoat.
Wait , talking about 8 year olds , hasnt there been something similar in Star Wars Phantom Menace? Like... the Driods have a giant blockade around naboo?
A blockade that was run by one small ship. Then when it's shields finally went down it was never actually shot at. Kind of a crappy blockade, but then those were god awful movies.
The whole thing was showing you it wasnt just 15 years ago.
Yes, and I've been arguing that they haven't been shooting missiles at taiwan at all. What you said implied that they were actually firing missiles at taiwan. What you proved is that they were firing missiles into the ocean between themselves and taiwan in an aggressive show of force, something that characterized their regime for decades.
LunaHound wrote:Finish quoting the rest shuma ,you evil sith
I'm not sure what else you want me to quote
How about the part that i highlighted in red
ShumaGorath wrote:So they test fired short range missiles in the straight fifteen years ago. How does that mean they've been shooting missile at taiwan for years? Also while it's kind of you to post a link on basic taiwanese history, it's better to actually say something in reference to the question you were asked. That link didn't answer his question.
LunaHound wrote:Finish quoting the rest shuma ,you evil sith
I'm not sure what else you want me to quote
How about the part that i highlighted in red
ShumaGorath wrote:So they test fired short range missiles in the straight fifteen years ago. How does that mean they've been shooting missile at taiwan for years? Also while it's kind of you to post a link on basic taiwanese history, it's better to actually say something in reference to the question you were asked. That link didn't answer his question.
Magical. The first link you provided stated that they did exactly that.
As presidential elections neared in 1996, tensions in the Taiwan Straits reached a new level when China test fired missiles in March. Many in Taiwan said the mainland was trying to influence voting in the election by the show of force.
Maybe you should provide better links in the future when you chose to have every link you base your shifting and nebulous argument on after it be in a foreign language to the one this forum is based on!
ShumaGorath wrote:Magical. The first link you provided stated that they did exactly that. Maybe you should provide better links in the future!
Which link? and i think you missed the point.
The point is:
They * Didnt * Stop
What are you trying to say? Yes the incident occured in 1996 , as the link says , your point is?
Your point was they stopped after.
ShumaGorath wrote:Magical. The first link you provided stated that they did exactly that. Maybe you should provide better links in the future!
Which link? and i think you missed the point. The point is:
They * Didnt * Stop
Yes, and my point is.
They * Never * started.
I was saying you were wrong about everything because of your lack of understanding about the situation and what constitutes actually performing an act.
Luna: This pen is blue Shuma: Thats an apple Luna: No this pen is BLUE
ShumaGorath wrote:Magical. The first link you provided stated that they did exactly that. Maybe you should provide better links in the future!
Which link? and i think you missed the point.
The point is:
They * Didnt * Stop
Yes, and my point is.
They * Never * started.
I was saying you were wrong about everything because of your lack of understanding about the situation and what constitutes actually performing an act.
Luna: This pen is blue
Shuma: Thats an apple
Luna: No this pen is BLUE
Lack of understanding about the situation , oh yes , just like you how you insist the "test" are not hurting TW
Me: They have been shooting missile at TW for years
Shuma: No they havnt
Me: Links missile tests
Shuma: it doesnt count because its not war
Me: They wont even need to announce a war , not when they can just kill Tw from within , their rights and economy
Shuma: Blue pen and APPLES
Lack of understanding about the situation , oh yes , just like you how you insist the "test" are not hurting TW
Well they aren't. Taiwan is an island. They certainly didn't hurt that. The taiwanese people don't live in the ocean so they weren't hit by it. The taiwanese economy isn't a physical object so the missiles probably didn't hit it. The taiwanese collective zeitgeist keeps buying weapons from the U.S. so it's far from an innocent bystandard shot by the evil seamissile of grandstanding that china shot so many of. You want to talk about actual violence or meaningful acts go to africa, the mideast, the koreas, or hell go to tibet. Places where the sounds of strife aren't just things that fall in the ocean and go *sploosh*.
Me: They have been shooting missile at TW for years Shuma: Taiwan isn't at the bottom of the sea Me: Links missile tests Shuma: it doesnt count because taiwan isnt at the bottom of the sea Me: They wont even need to announce a war , not when they can just kill Tw from within , their rights and economy Shuma: Is taiwan atlantis?
A Plate of Winsteak, Covered in Wingravy, with a side of Winfries
The problem with that scenario, is that 2 times in modern history has a "Joke Military" defeated "The most powerful XXX on the planet"
1: The Revolutionary War
2: The FIRST Korean War
and Btw, China is on N. Korea's side
Just to cover both at once. China is not on north koreas side. China has been repeatedly condemning them about their nuclear programme, and the PRC absolutely hates north korea. What they don't want is north korea to collapse and have several million refugees spill over their border in the event of a total korean collapse or all out war. That would be very difficult for china to handle. As for the revolutionary and Korean wars, firstly we had allies in the revolutionary war and they had to fight it over a very large ocean before the invention of the motor. Secondly who won the first korean war exactly?
You should probably try and pay attention to reality before throwing your accolades around.
Firstly, I would say a million refugees is reason enough to back them. That and they may say "oh, we hate them" but they may give them weapons. Look at the country of which you loathe so much: America. So many times in our history have we said "We wont do anything." but every single time we have given people weapons and training. What makes china so different?
Secondly, our soldiers were slaughtered, the war ended where it begun, and the Koreans, with their pitch forks and Joke of an Army, were laughing as they just beat the worlds largest super power. I would say that was a lose for us.
you should probably try not trying to lord yourself over us like you are. I have said I did not know some things, and that I would look them up. You, however, have said no such thing and act like your word is law.
Luna, you go.... girl? (from your avatar, that is what i would assume, though we all know what they say about assuming)
Thats just the worst imaginable reply / edit i have ever seen...
TW straight is an area , a part of TW .
What made you think they are aiming down there?
Fujian province in China is to the west of the strait, while important islands like Jinmen, Xiamen, Hainan Island, and the Matsu Islands are nearby. To the east are the west coast of Taiwan and Penghu. The island fishermen use the strait as a fishing resource. The Minjiang and Jiulong Rivers empty into the strait. The Taiwan Strait or Formosa Strait is a 180-km-wide (111.85-mile-wide) strait between China and Taiwan. The strait is part of the South China Sea and connects to East China Sea to the northeast. The narrowest part is 131 km (81.4 mi.) wide.
So yes , have China bomb the fishing areas where Taiwan fishes , and claim it didnt hit anything because Taiwan itself isnt in the water.
irstly, I would say a million refugees is reason enough to back them. That and they may say "oh, we hate them" but they may give them weapons. Look at the country of which you loathe so much: America. So many times in our history have we said "We wont do anything." but every single time we have given people weapons and training. What makes china so different?
It's a good reason to back them economically and provide for minor safeties in the security council, but if it came to war they would have the refugee scenario regardless and they don't want a war with the U.S. any more than the U.S. wants a war with china. Thus they give the north occasional lipservice about unity, condemn them for nukes and posturing, and then secretly write up plans for invasion and annexation in the event of the norths collapse or war.
Secondly, our soldiers were slaughtered, the war ended where it begun, and the Koreans, with their pitch forks and Joke of an Army, were laughing as they just beat the worlds largest super power. I would say that was a lose for us.
The United Nations, particularily the United States, came to the aid of the South Koreans in repelling the invasion. After early defeats at the hands of the North Korean military, a rapid UN counter-offensive repelled the North Koreans past the 38th Parallel and almost to the Yalu River, and the People's Republic of China (PRC) came to the aid of Communist North.[23] With Communist China's entry into the conflict, the fighting took on a more dangerous tone. The Soviet Union materially aided North Korea and China, and the threat of a possibly nuclear world war eventually ceased with an armistice that restored the border between the Koreas at the 38th Parallel and created the Korean Demilitarized Zone, a 2.5-mile (4.0 km) wide buffer zone between the two Koreas. North Korea unilaterally withdrew from the armistice on May 27, 2009, thus returning to a de jure state of war.
I think you may need to take history again.
you should probably try not trying to lord yourself over us like you are. I have said I did not know some things, and that I would look them up. You, however, have said no such thing and act like your word is law.
Thats because my word is law.
Luna, you go.... girl? (from your avatar, that is what i would assume, though we all know what they say about assuming)
Luna is the cutest little taiwanese girl you ever done see.
And the Luna, Shuma hour continues.... If Luna wasn't under age I'd say you two need to get married with the amount of fighting you're already doing.
If missile tests = act of war, Japan would have bombed North Korea into the stone age years ago since they even fired a missile OVER honshu. Sorry Luna, but missiles fired into the straight between mainland and Taiwan aren't even in the same league of wrongness compared to that.
Why North Korea and South Korea will probably never have open hostilities again, by yours truly.
1. The concept of Han. Korean people believe that through their shared tribulations (e.g., being invaded by everybody and their dog) that they are all family, even their misguided cousins to the North/South.
2. Big brothers USA and China will not let the bickering escalate into full blown conflict because it would be too expensive for both and various treaties/pacts signed to their respective step-children (the Koreas) would force their hand. The US maintains a physical presence in S. Korea for a reason; not that so few troops would make a difference. They're there to die in the case of a North Korean invasion (that's why the biggest bases are near Seoul which would be reduced to rubble within minutes of all out conflict). Their tragic deaths would result in the US being completely drawn into the conflict with a full brigade of marines landing in Incheon or Suncheon within hours (from bases in Japan). China would move to counter and protect the Norks and...BOOM world war III.
What would happen in the first few hours to days of a conflict:
1. Seoul vaporized by artillery and those artillery emplacements in turn vaporized by artillery on Cheju-do.
2. Advance military units stationed just north of the DMZ assault followed soon after by leading militia and special forces.
3. Nork sleeper cells all over south korea activate and add more civilian collateral damage.
4. South Korean navy enters Nork water and has their way with the Nork navy. Nork airforce decimated by superior S.Korean and American combined airpower.
5. Some hour or two hours later, stealth bombers arrive from Guam and commence the carpet bombing of Pyongyang (yeah they have AA but not anything better than the Iraqis had and you saw what good that did them).
6. Within the next couple of days Washington and Beijing scramble for diplomacy while Chine moves a few million troops across the Nork border.
7. Nork assault stalls around the southern edge of kyoungido before being reinforced by fresh troops from China.
8. Some few days to hours later, the nukes start falling.
LunaHound wrote:Thats just the worst imaginable reply / edit i have ever seen...
TW straight is an area , a part of TW .
What made you think they are aiming down there?
This is the area in question:
It's shared territory between mainland China and Taiwan, under international law.
To quote international law...
Territorial waters, or a territorial sea, as defined by the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, is a belt of coastal waters extending at most twelve nautical miles from the baseline (usually the mean low-water mark) of a coastal state. The territorial sea is regarded as the sovereign territory of the state, although foreign ships (both military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it; this sovereignty also extends to the airspace over and seabed below.
The term "territorial waters" is also sometimes used informally to describe any area of water over which a state has jurisdiction, including internal waters, the contiguous zone, the exclusive economic zone and potentially the continental shelf.
So. Find exact longitudes/latitudes for the missile impacts--and if any were "within 12 nautical miles from the baseline of Taiwan", you'd be right.
As it stands, it's nearly 100 miles distant at the closest point.
Which means there's ALOT of leeway for China to be test-firing missiles into the Strait.
Now, if you were saying that they time their missile "tests" with Taiwan's economic stresses or internal politics?
You'd be onto something, because that's something the Chinese aren't above doing.
It's a good reason to back them economically and provide for minor safeties in the security council, but if it came to war they would have the refugee scenario regardless and they don't want a war with the U.S. any more than the U.S. wants a war with china. Thus they give the north occasional lipservice about units, condemn them for nukes and posturing, and then secretly write up plans for invasion and annexation in the event of the norths collapse or war.
yes, but China also kinda hates the U.S. so what would be the smartest thing to do? oh, wait for two people you hate to start killing eachother. Then, you can annex one, and since you control a majority of the stock in the other, you just took over two countries. See how that works.
The United Nations, particularily the United States, came to the aid of the South Koreans in repelling the invasion. After early defeats at the hands of the North Korean military, a rapid UN counter-offensive repelled the North Koreans past the 38th Parallel and almost to the Yalu River, and the People's Republic of China (PRC) came to the aid of Communist North.[23] With Communist China's entry into the conflict, the fighting took on a more dangerous tone. The Soviet Union materially aided North Korea and China, and the threat of a possibly nuclear world war eventually ceased with an armistice that restored the border between the Koreas at the 38th Parallel and created the Korean Demilitarized Zone, a 2.5-mile (4.0 km) wide buffer zone between the two Koreas. North Korea unilaterally withdrew from the armistice on May 27, 2009, thus returning to a de jure state of war.
Where did you pull that from, exactly? For all I know, thats Wikipedia. But yes, that is an overview, however, it says nothing about the fact that the Korean War was bloody, or the fact that alot of people died during it. You can take a very important hill, but if you lost thousands of men doing it, was it really worth it? You play wargames.... how can you not understand that victories are not solely measured on objectives?
seems like you need to read "Strategy and Tactics for dummies"
Thats because my word is law.
which leads me to beleive your just trolling, and as such, not worth my time after this. Good day sir.
Kanluwen wrote:
Now, if you were saying that they time their missile "tests" with Taiwan's economic stresses or internal politics?
You'd be onto something, because that's something the Chinese aren't above doing.
Its really basic , just think about these points:
Is China generally communist? Yes , they are changing , but they still are , atleast mentally by the main populace.
Is China's officials corrupted? Yes as bad as it can get.
So ask Taiwanese the following questions:
What will happen to your companies and your investments within Taiwan when China takes over?
Do you have faith the corrupted governments wont destroy what you have , to be replaced by Chinese workers/ companies?
Now you know why Taiwan is dying. They are working for a future that will be all for nothing.
avantgarde wrote:Why exactly do the Chinese hate Americans, again?
China doesnt hate USA , more specifically , they hate anyone not Mainland chinese. They are opportunists , not because they chose to be.
Because the harsh conditions they are raised to be. Which is why Taiwanese are freaked out , doesnt help to what Chinese immigrants say about Canada
The mainland chinese have a saying in Canada 加拿大 , they call it 大家拿
Kanluwen wrote:
Now, if you were saying that they time their missile "tests" with Taiwan's economic stresses or internal politics?
You'd be onto something, because that's something the Chinese aren't above doing.
It's really basic , just think about these points:
Is China generally Communist? Yes , they are changing but they still are, at least in the general population's mentality.
Are China's officials corrupted? Yes, they are as bad as it can get.
So ask Taiwanese the following questions:
What will happen to your companies and your investments within Taiwan when China takes over?
Do you have faith that the corrupted governments won't destroy what you have , to be replaced by Chinese workers/ companies?
Now you know why Taiwan is dying. They are working for a future that will be all for nothing.
That has nothing, whatsoever, to do with missile tests first of all.
Second of all, why would China want to take over Taiwan just to run it into the ground?
That would be like if Russia took over Japan and shut down all trade in/out.
All you would be doing is increasing the strain on your own economy and hurting yourself.
Kanluwen wrote:
That has nothing, whatsoever, to do with missile tests first of all.
Second of all, why would China want to take over Taiwan just to run it into the ground?
That would be like if Russia took over Japan and shut down all trade in/out.
All you would be doing is increasing the strain on your own economy and hurting yourself.
Of course it has nothing to do with anything... All it does is give TW a harsh remainder that China can take over TW anytime they feel like.
Take over our future , change what we have built ,
Nope , nothing to do with it at all!
When China take over Taiwan , it'll be just another extension of China , and everything it represents.
And Taiwanese DESPISE that. Because we cant stand how China treat human rights.
And the part high light in red , the "your" part really doesnt work. While you guys see China / Taiwan as just same old "chinese"
but to us , we are like Fire and Water. When China takes over , it wouldnt be OUR economy and OURSELVES anymore , it'll be China's
see the problem?
Just for reference , all the discussion on Taiwan going off topic away from Korea isnt by my choice .
As you guys can see , im mostly just replying. As i received Z*E*R*O PM about discussing it somewhere else ,
i guess there is no other choice :3
The real issue i believe is , you guys that are not caught up in the conflict really really have no idea how different Taiwan from China is.
ShumaGorath wrote:
Luna: This pen is blue
Shuma: Thats an apple
Luna: No this pen is BLUE
LunaHound wrote:
Me: They have been shooting missile at TW for years
Shuma: No they havnt
Me: Links missile tests
Shuma: it doesnt count because its not war
Me: They wont even need to announce a war , not when they can just kill Tw from within , their rights and economy
Shuma: Blue pen and APPLES
That all said, I really couldn't give two darn nickels about what happens between China and Tawain, that's really ancient history that should have ended in the 1950's one way or another. The time when either of the two countries could claim soveriegnty over the other has long since passed. I'm pretty sure the whole word views the two as seperate countries now, not rebellious states.
I honestly don't think that any of this is worth getting into a fight over, I'm tired of this discussion. I have better things to do than watch two Asian countries (SK/NK, PRC/Taiwan or whatever) slog it out.
@Kanluwen: I wasn't talking about the Korean War. When the PRC started shelling a Taiwnese owned island (a patch of dirt in every sense of the word) and it appeared that they were going to sieze some of the minor islands, not Taiwan itself, Eisenhower threatened/implied that he was willing to use Nuclear Weapons to halt this. Even other members of NATO were outraged, but the threat was enough for the Soviet Union to plead for the PRC to stop.
Emperors Faithful wrote:Feh, sorry. Just tired over all this arguing.
Sorry that i replied to them and prolonged this none korean discussion.
I really did offer them to discuss it somewhere else but they just ignored me.
I dont know much about Korea , other than the K-Drama i watch on tv , so i'll step out of this thread now :3
But then looking back , its hard for me to be sorry especially some of the posts in this thread only exists to be addressed to me in the first place
as usual. Almost like... arguing for the sake of arguing against lunahound , not so much a discussion?
No it's not that. The Chinese/Tawian thing is still connected to this thread. I just don't see the point. There's nothing new going on here, nothing shiny. Unless aliens or a certain JAWsKat is responsible for the missing sailors then there's really nothing worthwhile in this thread. *frustrated face*
Be douchy a-holes who think being French is the pinnacle of human achievement, even though real French people think they're idiots? fine
Laying the anti-mainlander sentiment on a bit thick there, Luna. I know most of them are loud and obnoxious, really do they need to yell all the time? I mean they don't shut up. What was I talking about?
Kanluwen wrote:
That has nothing, whatsoever, to do with missile tests first of all.
Second of all, why would China want to take over Taiwan just to run it into the ground?
That would be like if Russia took over Japan and shut down all trade in/out.
All you would be doing is increasing the strain on your own economy and hurting yourself.
Of course it has nothing to do with anything... All it does is give TW a harsh remainder that China can take over TW anytime they feel like.
Take over our future , change what we have built ,
Nope , nothing to do with it at all!
When China take over Taiwan , it'll be just another extension of China , and everything it represents.
And Taiwanese DESPISE that. Because we cant stand how China treat human rights.
And the part high light in red , the "your" part really doesnt work. While you guys see China / Taiwan as just same old "chinese"
but to us , we are like Fire and Water. When China takes over , it wouldnt be OUR economy and OURSELVES anymore , it'll be China's
see the problem?
Just for reference , all the discussion on Taiwan going off topic away from Korea isnt by my choice .
As you guys can see , im mostly just replying. As i received Z*E*R*O PM about discussing it somewhere else ,
i guess there is no other choice :3
The real issue i believe is , you guys that are not caught up in the conflict really really have no idea how different Taiwan from China is.
Reading comprehension.
You lack it.
IF China took over Taiwan and then ran the formerly Taiwanese region into the ground economically, as you're suggesting, they would be hurting only themselves.
Do you get it now or do you want me to draw a picture in paint?
You lack it.
IF China took over Taiwan and then ran the formerly Taiwanese region into the ground economically, as you're suggesting, they would be hurting only themselves.
Do you get it now or do you want me to draw a picture in paint?
1st , thats a very rude thing to say.
2nd , quote me on the part i underlined , where did i say that?
The part high light in red , i doubt that very much , considering the FW resin thread and the 2010 FW thread speaks clear enough.
Due to the number of alerts logged against this thread so far, I'm going to lock it until one of the mods who doesn't think that the entire OT forum should be just purged with flame comes along to have a look at it...
). The freedom to cut medicines with glass and bleach. The right to own people as property. The right to shoot people I don't like. The freedom of the poor to feth off and die when live deals them a naff hand.
.....
