So, looking at sample army lists and reading tactical advice, I can find very little to support taking any space marine HQ choice other than a librarian. Is this the case? I'd prefer to take a captain (I can see why Chapter Masters are a waste) as it fits more with the character of my army, but I'm willing to sacrifice fluff to serve good sense.

So, give me the wrap on space marine HQs...

Here is a short version about SM Hq
Im assuming you want good Hqs

Captain is alright, mostly seen on a bike so you can bikes as troops.. Relic blade + SS is best combo for any captain (Artificer if you want but thats just a more expensive and weaker vulkan). For 170 pts you can get a captain on foot with the above gear.. yet vulkan is 190 and has a heavy flamer + master crafted sword and then ALSO makes every single melta, flamer and TH a ton better..

Librarian will null z one is probably best secondary HQ for marines.. Most of the tough lists have this because null zone is amazing

chaplain - no
ultramarine characters - dont play smurfs please.. theyre all just over costed

Then you have Vulkan, Pedro, Lysander who are the characters you see in almost every SM army.

I dont know what chapter you want to do but vulkan is by far the best character.. He makes all the weapons you should be using anyway.. better

Pedro is good for sternguard and coordinated assaults due to +1 attack

Lysander is good if you face people with big monsters.. otherwise hes sorta like pedro but not as useful

I dont think ive used any HQ other than the 3 special guys, bike captain and librarian since the rest are really meh. Like I said, the only combinations ive really seen that win are Vulkan + Librarian, Bike captain, pedro + librarian then maybe lysander and someone else

I agree with Kirasu.

But if you don't want any special characters for some reason or other, then I recommend a SM captain, nice and simple. You don't have to make him exceptional. Just take him for the form if you really want or a librarian like you said.

If you don't do much with your captain, you can spend the points elsewhere;

Anyone like MotF here?
:(

Anyways, if you enjoy having a vast amount of dreadnoughts, and not so many tanks/support vehicles, then use the Master of the Forge. He let's you get dreads as HS choices, and for the low price of 115, you can give him a power weapon, and for 120/118, you can give him a PW and a SB.

If you want to dread bash, the BA are going to be far superior for it in just a few days.

Captains are good for unlocking bikes as troops... and that's it.

Libbys are great for Null Zone... it's one of the reasons to play "generic" space marines.

Most of the special characters offer something worthwhile, but Lysander is pretty much just a pure ass-beater, which newer books do better.

Don't discount Sicarius, Rites of Battle is an amazing ability.

I'd put in another vote for the Master of the Forge if you like Dreads. The BA Dread builds, while cool, are really limiting (Furioso and Furioso Librarians are good, but expensive, and are close-combat only. You can only take a max of three "regular" dreads, and the Death Company dreads certainly beastly, but have rage so really need stormravens to transport them to where they'll work, you would also need to take death company to get them).

Aside from his Dread-enhancing, he's actually a pretty damn versatile HQ choice for 100-115 points or so. He has a servo-harness, bolsters a single ruin before the game begins, and can repair vehicles, all while having two wounds and a 2+ save. I like to attach him to a 5 man combat squad with a combi-weapon on the sergeant, pawn off the AP3 hits on him, absorb the AP2 with bolter marines, and can get to shooting to fire off a special weapon, a combination of the harness mounted and regular weapons (whichever is appropriate), and a combi-weapon from the sergeant. It works particularly well for me, as I usually castle this squad in between two dreadnoughts. I'll get their fire taken care of, then run the dreadnoughts back in front, making it impossible to assault without getting stuck in with the dreadnoughts.

I have the Master of the Forge in my 9 Drop Pod list. 5 Dreadnoughts hitting the table turn one is very effective.

A good thing about the MotF is that heis cheap, so losing him is not nearly as bad as any other HQ.

I use a MOTF with conversion beamer and I stick him in a scout squad with telion with snipers or just next to depending on whom I face. I find that he can be underrated by alot of opponents and it also helps you with anti-tank/deathstar units. Putting him on a bike also works but against some opponets (tau e.g) you have to play carefully or he can be shot to peices before he does anything.
The rest of the HQ's act like everyone has said. Captain for bikes, Librarian for generic assault, special characters for armies that are based around them (well, maybe not for vulkan, he's just generally awesome).

I admit I hadn't thought of that.

MotF with a conversion beamer is a nice cheap way to get a railgun blast. I use him much the same way Btone does and he's to small to be worth shooting at, yet too big a threat to ignore which can force difficult choices.

Space Marine Captain with Artificer Armour and Master crafted weapons.

Armour will soak up most of what enemy can hit you with, and master crafted means you've got more chance of taking down anything on the field. And all without the bulkiness of terminator armour.

Plus don't forget the Command Squad or Honour Guard options. Having a less poweful captain can mean you can go to town on the command squad. Sergeant with Storm Bolter and power weapons, Company Champion with his requisite weapons, and an apothecary to save you from all those nasty turns of the dice will help your captain survive the most nasty of engagements.

@Corennus:
There are no more master crafted options for the Captain any more...

Art Armor is an indulgence.
While the Command Squad can be useful they need a proper role... like special weapon spam to suppliment/compliment the list.

As for the Sergeant: Storm Bolter/lightning Claw is better...hell drop the storm bolter, claws are better than just power weapons, but I find a Combat Command Squad questionable to begin with.

why no Chaplain love?

the ability to grant rerolls on the charce to a single unit and he gets more wargear for his price then the Captain.

Captain gets a CCW, bolter/pistol, 4+ invuln

Chaplain gets a Power weapon, Pistol, 4+ invuln, fearless, reroll misses on charge to unit.

both cost the same.

IMO it's just because Cassius is such a good buy, and if you're looking for a discount HQ the librarian offers a bit more utility for a non-CC oriented army.

Chaplains are good with assault terminators... and that's about it. And if you're running a chappy with assault terminators, you might as well run Cassius, because he has similar durability.

EEEEK! NO MASTER CRAFTED WEAPONS!!!

NO FAIR!!

ok. well my view is you either take an uber hard, uber killy, uber expensive model as your general (think Chapter Master), or you take as low points captain as possible and again go to town on the command squad.

Chaplain in Terminator Armour should be pretty good as command unit.....but I just don't like Chaplains.

In a non-terminator army I think a captain in artificer armour backed up by some seriously killy CC squads should work.

Corennus wrote:EEEEK! NO MASTER CRAFTED WEAPONS!!!

NO FAIR!!

ok. well my view is you either take an uber hard, uber killy, uber expensive model as your general (think Chapter Master), or you take as low points captain as possible and again go to town on the command squad.

Chaplain in Terminator Armour should be pretty good as command unit.....but I just don't like Chaplains.

In a non-terminator army I think a captain in artificer armour backed up by some seriously killy CC squads should work.

Just no...

Given the choice of special commanders that can benefit your whole army if you choose to build around them and the Librarian/MotF as cheap options that can still do the job asked of them. Getting an 'uber killy' Chapter Master is all well and good but what does he add to a unit that nobody else can do? As for those uber killy command squads, why bother? They charge a target, maybe even multi charge if you have enough points left to crack transports, and then they get shot/flamed/blast markered to death the next turn.

Besides at minimum a Captain with a command squad will run you 215 points and get eaten by th/ss termies which cost 15 points less. Besides, what do you gain by building such a squad? To make them into semi-assualt termies you need to spend 455 points to get your commander Artificer Armor, Relic Blade, Storm Shield, an Apothecary, and 4 Veterans with th/ss. This unit costs 5 more points than 5 assault termies in Land Raider and if we compare them we'll find that the termies in an LR Crusader are the better buy every time.

Ok. Well thing is if you're going with a NON TERMINATOR army (like a second company army) then you need something very hard hitting with good saves. Only squad I can think of that will have that is a command squad.

Now whether we lead with a chaplain, librarian or Captain is down to us. I don;t take librarians in my army cause they're not part of my army makeup.


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But now that I think about it, since i'm not allowed to field a Primarch (which is what I was intending before I re-read the Codex), I might get ONE librarian to stand in for him.

You assume that you need a super hard assault unit to win a game for you when this isn't the case. If you spend 490 points on a melee unit mounted in a rhino, it has to be a rhino because second companies don't get Land Raiders, then you're going to be in for a tough game. I pop that transport with a much and leave your hammer unit floundering mid field while I clean off the rest of your army from the board.

Seriously taking a command squad is the worst thing you can do even if you are sticking to a themed build.

hmmmm interesting point norade.

Please bare in mind i've only JUST started playing this game properly, and many of my assumptions of the game are turning out as not being viable.

Still, i'm going to make a command squad just to see how it pans out.


Also there must be some point to taking a SM Captain or they wouldn't give him so much extra stuff to equip him with!

As many of us shall disagree or agree upon such a matter, it's hard to get a sraight answer. I just follow what I would theorize would work, and if it doesn't, it's life. Who cares if you lose many times. All you need is to have fun.

The thing is there are a ton of units in 40k that are there but aren't worth taking. Keep in mind what you want your Captain to do and then look at the special characters that might fill the same role while providing something extra. For example Vulkan He'stan versus a Captain with Artificer Armor, Storm Shield, and Relic Blade. They have the same stat line, including saves, but for the extra 35 points Vulkan has a heavy flamer, his relic blade is master crafted, he twin-links flamers, heavy flamers, meltas and multi-meltas, and makes thunder hammers master crafted. The winner there is clear.

I don't often play as SM and my lists tend to play the army as site back and shoot so I can't give an example of a non-termy assault unit you'd want him with, but you could run a drive by flamer unit with him and part of a combat squaded tactical squad in a rhino. If you don't find it a waste of points you could do even better by putting Vulkan and a HF equipped Sternguard squad together and make the idea even deadlier.

I think one of the most underrated HQs is MotF. He is cheap enough to be viable in low point games and he has enough options to be flexable in high point games. Personally I give him a conversion beamer and a 10 man tac squad with ML.

Any thoughts on Vortex of Doom for the libby??

Vortexlibby in TDA w/ StormShield.
Otherwise, I'm not too thrilled with the slight chance of instant killing him.

Short range and small blast means it's prob. best as a vehicle hunter when he comes down in a pod with company.

Otherwise, I do prefer Avenger/Null but on a bike.

Norade wrote: it has to be a rhino because second companies don't get Land Raiders

actually this is wrong. all line companies have at least 1 landraider.

1st company has more then the others usually

Ok I have my captain with a Storm bolter and Power Fist.

Question:

Is this best option or should I start again?

And also is an Adamantine Mantle still a viable piece of wargear?

I wouldn't give a power fist to the captain due to his high initiative (I don't think having an expensive model with a 3+/4+ going last is a good idea) unless you put him in terminator armor and give him a thunder hammer (a power fist with a few perks) and storm shield (but I'm not sure that's a good idea either). As others said, giving him a bike is probably the best you can do for him, maybe lightning claws too?

You cannot buy a admantine mantle anymore.

The problem with Power fists on Captains is that you end up wasting their decent initiative. If I were doing a foot captain I would probable go something like:
Captain: Relic Blade, Storm Shield (If you really want something to shoot Aux Grenade launcher) and then load him up with a unit in some sort of transport.

Most people will mention that there are more effective options for an army than the Captain. The exception being a bike captain which opens bikes as troop options.

Also the Adamantine Mantle is not in the most recent Space Marine Codex. Do you happen to have the one with Calgar on the cover?

Cheers,
~Volkan

I used to run an Epistolary Lib (Null Zone & Avenger) with Vulkan, TH/SS Termies, in a LR. Having Vulkan and the Lib jumping out and dropping 2 templates is pretty devastating (even against MEQ).

I've dropped the Epistolary from the Lib and just leave him in the LR to get the most out of Null Zone.

Tigurius is a bit overcosted (and needs an Inv save), but his ability to re-roll Reserve rolls and Psychic power selection is pretty sweet.

No I'm using the 5th Edition Codex. Just remember reading about adamantine mantles as being part of a captain's or hero's wargear.

I think i'm going to consider swapping my Powerfist for a Lightning Claw or Power Sword.

As a rule I've never liked powerfists, just liked the way he looked with a storm bolter slung under one. Oh well, back to the modelling board.

THANKS!

Corennus wrote:No I'm using the 5th Edition Codex. Just remember reading about adamantine mantles as being part of a captain's or hero's wargear.

I think i'm going to consider swapping my Powerfist for a Lightning Claw or Power Sword.

As a rule I've never liked powerfists, just liked the way he looked with a storm bolter slung under one. Oh well, back to the modelling board.

THANKS!

You could use him as a 'Counts As' Pedro Kantor. Fist and Storm Bolter are his weapons of choice apparently.


As for Space Marine HQs I find them sub-par at anything else but augmenting the units around them. Usually There is nothing they do well enough to warrant their massive costs. So, the best option is usually just use a Librarian to make it easier for your other units to kill, or take Vulkan to do the same. And, once the point level permits it you take both and make sure stuff dies for good.

What's the point of command squads then?????

Having said that when i took my command squad against enemy dreadnought 2 power fists and a power weapon made short work of it. Pity I can't take a pair of lightning claws for captain with underslung storm bolter on one of them...

Then again, I might give him a power axe.......that'd be good.


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And I know "themed" armies die quicker, but my second company can't have Vulkan in it, or librarians.

Maybe when I get Chaplain Folkar finished he'll add some serious ouchiness to my opponents.

Yup, captain leading tactical squads, Chaplain leading assault......


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Just had a fun time converting my captain. He now has storm bolter and power axe. Initiative is his! and watch out armour.

Plus on my "primarch" model (gold terminator armour heavily embossed with eagles and scrolls etc) I converted the force staff i'd given him (since not allowed to use him as a librarian) into a MASSIVE power sword. Since he has a quad bolter on his left arm (read storm bolter for game purposes) he now has a massive power weapon to go with it.

Oh, got some advice in my second game to convert my assault sergeant from having a plasma pistol to a more normal pistol, since if it blew up my most powerful assault piece (barring captain or teminators) would be out of action. So now given him combi meltagun/bolter.

Is it really necessary to give plasma weapons to "expendable" marines?

@Corennus:

The point of the command squad: special weapon spam, Ass Termies do combatty roles pretty well and cost effectively.

Pity I can't take a pair of lightning claws for captain with underslung storm bolter on one of them...

I think you can...

There is no difference between a power axe or power weapon and claws are better in general...even one claw is better than a power weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plasmas are risk/reward weapons.
In general the rewards will outweight the risk when viewed objectively, but some will overweight the possibility of death greater than the flexibility that the plasma gun brings; I'm one of them.

Plasma Pistols are poo if GW keeps them the cost they are now.

Well technically yes (re-rolls to wound is nice), but if you only use one Lightning Claw then you can't gain the extra attack for having 2 CC weapons (unless you take an extra LC).

So...? In general the single LC will outperform the extra attack from just the powerweapon vs. MEQs.

Unless you play GEQ all fricken day/month/years...
Re-rolls win...pure and simple.

Oh for hell's sake i've just finished modelling the Power Axe!!!! GRRRRRRRR

Will consider the Lightning Claw. At least i've got one already painted up from an assault marine I found I couldn't use it on.

Again.

Grrrr

Count as...very simple to just let your opponent know what is in your list and which model represents the one listed.
For casual play of course.
Hell, if you have the points remaining go for the Relic Blade .

I just put my axe as a relic blade on my army list hehehehe

Sanctjud wrote:So...? In general the single LC will outperform the extra attack from just the powerweapon vs. MEQs.

Unless you play GEQ all fricken day/month/years...
Re-rolls win...pure and simple.

I think what I was trying to say (and badly at that) was why not take 2x LC so that you get +1 Attack and Re-rolls? Granted you're not getting the 3++ for the SS, but you do have a 4++ for the IH. 130pts for a Capt with the 2x LC.

Well there are two reasons i'm not going to mess any more with my captain's loadout now.

One. I Like storm bolters. I like a captain to be able to shoot.

Two. I like the Power Axe. And giving it Relic Blade status means it'll do just as well as Lightning Claws. Plus the fact he has an extra die for two CC weapons (Storm Bolters rock!!)

Relic blade is a 2-handed weapon so you cannot combine it with and xhw. The Storm Bolter is not a pistol so that as well cannot be combined with another weapon for +1 attacks.

I HATE RULES

Ok. to hell with it. he's gonna have a normal power axe and storm bolter. that should bring his points down a bit.

@Barlio
2LC vs Relic, both are decent.
I started with 2 LC, but went to Relic blades, why?

Well my Captain on a bike with a relic just looks like a mini Daemon Prince stat line wise.
The flat str 6 is decent overall, the extra attacks and rr to wounds are pretty good as well, but in my biker list, I am not lacking in Anti-infantry, so the relic seem to fit better on a captain that is pretty much there to suppliment the list a bit.

@Corennus:
Sadly, no +1 attack for the relic blade ever. Nor does the StormBolter count as a close combat weapon.
Edit: Ninjaed by Barlio.

Um what's to stop the captain putting away his storm bolter and grabbing the axe with two hands when in combat.

Just cause he has a storm bolter doesn't mean he can't have a relic blade does it

I did not mean you couldn't use the relic blade, it was a reply to the whole +1Attack thing that Barlio has gone over.

You can have both.

Basically he's limited to only 3 Attacks base and can only get +1A from charging. He gets no bonus for 2 close combat weapons as he doesn't have 2 close combat weapons nor does the relic allow it.

So 3 Attacks base, only +1 for charging.

I personally like the Relic for IDing T3 and some anti-tank work. Claws are more consistant vs. mass infantry though.

Hooray Relic Blade is back.

So it should be, he's thousands of years old.

Ok I was a bit off topic with the 2x LC thing (my bad). Yeah I would go with the Relic blade as well. I generally face a lot of marines, Nids, and Orks so the S6 is needed, but if I'm going to spend that many points to tool him up (Captain with RB, SB, AA, and DW = 158pts) I'll drop the extra 32 for Vulkan. Now my melta and flamer heavy army just got a shot of Steroids.

But then again this is just jumping back on the SC vs Non-SC merry-go-round (sp). I think if you want shooting, some hth nastyness, and somebody to boost your army then go for CM Pedro Kantor.

To be honest i'll either go the "very cheap and get more models route" or give him every weapon I possibly can and watch him become a one man army.

And I SERIOUSLY considered making a salamanders army. but I can't stand green armour

Remember that it doesn't matter how many points you spend on him if he gets his head knocked off by a powerfist (aka Instant Death).

You could always create your own Chapter with "counts-as" characters leading them.

Then paint it something else... there's always 'Count as' in the back pocket .

My 3.5 ed 'plauge marines' are now 5th ed assault terminators, works so well.
Why? I had 40MM based plague marines back then when it was legal to do so with no opponent consent and had giant shields on the plague marines and large sythes....works like a charm now.

I'm gonna concentrate on my Emperor's Knights for now.

Could you do me a favour and take a look at my Army List in the List section of the forum

What about Cato Sicarius? I used him in a couple games and he did OK, not exceptionally, though.

Alkasyn wrote:What about Cato Sicarius? I used him in a couple games and he did OK, not exceptionally, though.

With Sicarius, it's not how well he does, but how he makes the rest of your army perform better. For example, against space marines I will commonly try to set up multiple tank shocks with a wave serpent at a time, because LD8/9 is good but not super reliable. LD10 on the other hand is really hard to beat. Also, the ability to give a tac squad veteran skills is pretty neato.

Plus Sicarius doesn't take away your combat tactics like other characters do.

I have to admit that I've been attracted by the idea of giving a tac squad tank-hunter. A str10 lascannon or str9 ap1 multimelta would be pretty sweet.

Flavius Infernus wrote:A str10 lascannon AND/or str9 ap1 multimelta would be pretty sweet.

-Corrected

Anyway, it's a whole lot of 'meh'.
He pretty much demands alot of infantry to make the most use of...while he himself is not that flashy for the points you pay. He's a toolbox character basically, though I'm not impressed with anything on him.

Edit: I wonder why he gave up is ultra cool longer taloned Lightning Claws...

Ok. My Space Marine HQ now consists of:

Captain in Artificer armour with Power Axe and Storm Bolter (considering remodelling to Relic Blade)

Veteran Sergeant with Storm Bolter and Power Fist

Company Champion with Combat Shield/bolt pistol and power sword.

Apothecary (not finished yet) with Bolt Pistol and Narthecium

Comany Standard Bearer with Standard and Chainsword

Veteran close combat marine with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield.


Any ideas? or is that as close combaty as I can make it.

As unhelpful as this will be... I'd suggest just getting Assault Termies if you want a combat unit.

Stormbolters are cool and I know you want them, but they are such average weaponry on the Command Squad. The unique access to multiple special weapons is IMO the cornerstone of the Command Squad.

The Standard is decent if you have morale issues and the Champions is a decent buy in points.
Anyway, the more important question is: Delivery? Rhino/Razorback?

Well I have a Rhino painted up so probably that.

Otherwise a Drop Pod.

And i'll think about the armament.

Problem is having a Company Champion, Apothercary (which really is a must IMO) and Standard Bearer really gives you less options with regards to making your squad really count.
But I LIKE my standard, and i LIKE my champion!!!


Whinge

Oh yeah your standard LOVES you, and the champion LOVES you, but you just "like" them? Come on Corennus let's be real about this relationship ok. If you have commitment issues then you need to just tell them. Don't lead them on. The Champion is reaching Menopause, and the Standard Bearer has an opportunity to go to Mars for an internship. You need to lock down these relationships before you lose them forever *Cue Single Ladies by Beyonce*

Sorry, I'm bored today

LOL.

Gonna keep my command squad as is.

If I'm gonna do a terminator command squad i'll just attach my Terminator Captain to my assault term squad.

One piece of advice: Go all TH/SS. Some would call it cliche, but hey why not. That 3++ is to die for. If you want some LCs then throw a pair on your Termie HQ choice.

that is what I did...

Hmmmm. so convert my Storm bolter/Powerfist sergeant to TH/SS.

Hmmmmmmm what about giving the Standard Bearer a Storm Shield? Sure he can't do much but stand there looking heroic, but he'll survive much better.
An Apothecary with a Thunder Hammer.....Interesting...

i think the SB can have any wargear he wants

not sure though

Actually I've got it. Standard Bearer with Thunder Hammer, Apothecary with Storm Shield.

Apoth can't take gear, he's not a Vet technically RAW-wise.
Everyone else can take gear (even standard bearer).
The champion is arguable both ways.

In addition...TH/SS Command Squad HuH?

Seriously... if you go Combat, take Ass Termies.
If you go shooty vs. hordes, take Tac Termies.
If you go special weapon spam take the Command Squad.

If you want something just 'because', then fine, but know that the TH/SS is the best value you'll get for taking the combinations ot TH/SS while anywhere else is horribly cost-ineffective.

The whole squad, IMO, is considered vets.
For my command squad, I would take:
As many power fists as possible.
1 meltagun
1 flamer
1 Company Standard
1 Company Champ
As many SS as possible, or CS.

JSK-Fox:

The rules suggest otherwise. A Command Squad has models called "Veterans" with a standard line of characteristics, and a model called an "Apothecary" with a standard line of characteristics. Apothecaries are not Veterans, for the purposes of options that apply to Veterans.

Something also to mention about the difference between the Forgefather and a Captain is that the Forgefather does not allow you to take a Command Squad, and frankly they're the best source of Plasma Guns that a Space Marine army has. Stick them in with a Libarian with Null Zone and Gate of Infinity and you have a wonderful fire team to send to hotspots.

Something nobody has mentioned is Marneus Calgar's God of War rule. It's like an upgrades version of Rites of Battle and Combat Tactics where instead of either choosing to fail or rolling on Ld10, you can choose to pass or fail. In other words, you will never run away until you want to, and will never sustain No Retreat wounds. Calgar is expensive though.

Wasn't it arguable that God of War causes No Retreat wounds?
And yes, he is expensive for that perk that really only benefits MSU lists with lots of infantry, less of a mechanized list.

Well i'm gonna give my Apothecary a bolt pistol and chainsword. My standard bearer will have a thunder hammer (if I can convert it to being a left handed one) and the Sergeant and Company Champion i'm leaving alone.

It'll be a pretty close combat style squad with a bit of firepower from the storm bolters of the captain and sergeant.

Sanctjud wrote:Wasn't it arguable that God of War causes No Retreat wounds?
And yes, he is expensive for that perk that really only benefits MSU lists with lots of infantry, less of a mechanized list.

Only if you choose to fail the LD test and get caught in the sweeping advance as normal. Otherwise, SM don't suffer no retreat wounds on a passed leadership roll.

Relic blade is the best weapon for the Captain to have. You can always give him Melta Bombs as well if you are worried about Dreadnaughts.

Storm Shields are nice, but he does have an Iron Halo already so he does not need it. If you still want a ranged attack with Blade/Shield the Captain can take an Aux Grenade Launcher as an additional weapon.

I'm not giving my captain a Storm Shield Lyracian.
I was tempted by the Aux Grenade Launcher, but I want him to have a storm bolter and power weapon..

Wondering if I can do a conversion to have his Storm Bolter wrist mounts (a la Pedro Kantor / Grey Knights), then model the power axe as being wielded by two hands.....

You can give him what you want...just note the SB and PW is a pretty substandard build.

he'll have a relic blade and Storm bolter.

A lot of people here have used the argument that you shouldn't take regular captains, because there are special character captains that bring a lot more to the table.

Am I the only one who thinks the regular Space marine tactics is worth having? Having the ability to fall back from enemy melée specialists, or alternatively, fall back your own melée specialists during the enemy's assault phase, to get another charge the next round, is in my opinion great, and underrated.

Well, if you want to keep Combat Tactics and don't want Biker troops you could always just get a Libby...at least for the hood.

Else there's the Chappy and MoTF.

Captain is really there for the Biker Troops...his combat muscle is not that impressive all alone and is points intensive to get him beefed up for it.

As for Combat Tactics itself, the application is limited and specific. In addition there is a Risk/Reward mechanic as well, it can back fire totally.

DIdn't know you could do that.....

I know you can automatically fail morale tests if need be and regroup.....

And quite honestly the reason you go for a Command Squad in my opinion (although to REALLY make it worthwhile change your captain to chaper master and take Honour Guard) is the ability to put a LOT of damage into the enemy AND keep your troops morale up at same time.

worthwhile change your captain to chaper master and take Honour Guard) is the ability to put a LOT of damage into the enemy AND keep your troops morale up at same time.

Chapter Masters are not worth it. The extra shot that must scatter is meh and the Honor Guard....just take terminators IMO.

What do you mean by keeping the troops morale up? Masters and Honour Guard don't do that directly... do you mean the standard bearer?

Yup.

Admittedly you have to go pretty far to make SM take a leadership / morale test. but i'd rather have my guys stick and fight than run to the edge.

Yea, but all you need is the command squad with the bearer, not the Honour Guard.

In addition, I only think they affect morale, not all leadership tests.

The only thing I like about the Honour Guard is they get Artificer armour as standard. And any member can take a Relic Blade....

The problem with that is, Ass termies are more cost effective and don't require a Chapter Master.

Art armor is nifty but the 3++ is more important...and relics are just more points on something that's already expensive per model.

The librarian is pretty good yeah, but I think the Command Squad is rather attractive. Fit them in a razorback or drop pod, and you can have a pretty mean melta/plasma/melee squad, that are tough to kill(what with the apothecary)

I don't have any plasma in my squad....

I've got a Assault guy with a TH/SS

Company champion with combat shield and Power Sword.

Veteran Sergeant with Storm Bolter and soon-to-have Power Sword

Apothecary with bolt pistol and chainsword.

Standard Bearer with chainsword (and possibly plasma pistol holstered)

I KNOW the point of the command squad is to get every special weapon you can have on it, but at the end of the day a CS at 208 points is tough and effective as far as points go I think.

I am growing atached to the idea of having a squad running around with 4 plasma guns in a pod. Throw the commander in there with a Plasma pistol or combi plasma and thats pretty hot. 216 points in a drop pod. of course it would hurt to have a gets hot roll on these guys.

What are you wanting to do with said Plasma? Gun down MCs, MEQs, Termies, or are you looking for a catch-all weapon? I think that (in regards to a drop pod role) you should look at Sternguard. The Special Issue Ammo is better suited for multiple roles, you have access to nearly every weapon immaginable, and you have Ld9 and 2 attacks base.

@Corennus: I would definately heed Sanctjud's advice on this. You are still spending less with a squad of ass-termies (200). You have a 3+ Inv, multiple Thunderhammer attacks, and 2+ termie armor. True with the CS you are getting nifty stuff like an Apothecary and a Std Bearer, but at the end of the day this is a 6man squad (with the character) that is dying to plasma. Ass-termies will shrug that off and are just as likely to stand up to the scary stuff.

I have a Command Squad at home and I am looking forward to painting/playing them, but they are a "for fun" unit only. I suggest some playtesting with each unit and see what you think of it. That's the best way to decide.

Good luck regardless.

The only advantage Honour Guard have over Terminators is they can fit in a Rhino.

@Corennus - Storm Bolter & Relic Blade is a nice combo. It gives you a cheap leader who is decent in melee.

@Giant Moth, you are not the only player. Some of us just fine Combat Tactics rather limited. It works best for a gun line army to run away from the enemy in the shooting phase. Trying to disengage from melee is difficult and you do not always get 6" away from the opponent so you can auto-rally with ATSKNF.

Last night my Tyranid spore scattered 11" and was just a couple of inches from the marine board edge so I was able to run two broken squads off the table without even having to chase them.

Actually the trick to using Combat Tactics to escape from assaults is to layer your forces, typically using a Dreadnought to backstop a unit of infantry. Because the enemy can't consolidate within 1" of the back-stopping unit, the unit that uses Combat Tactics to Fall Back has a pretty good chance of making it 6"+ away, if they're regular infantry and further if Jump Infantry or Bikers. Finally you can pull friendly units out of losing propositions by using a Dreadnought to counter-charge the unit. Dreadnoughts only have three attacks on the charge, if you're lucky, so it'll even out the combat, the infantry can retreat, and the Dreadnought chews on the offending unit for a bit while the infantry go shoot someone up.

I know there are ways you can make Combat Tactics work. Using Dreads is nice, but I would rather have them shooting stuff than locked into combat.

You have a 58% chance of being caught in a sweeping advance by other I 4 units (unless you still have another unit locked into the combat). So I generally do not think it is worth while trying to run away.

Exactly, if you have another unit locked in the combat, like a Dreadnought, you can Fall Back, automatically Rally thanks to And They Shall Know No Fear, and then use Heavy Weapons thanks to And They Shall Know No Fear. The opportunity cost of firing the Dreadnought's Heavy Weapon is made up for the opportunity to fire the infantry Heavy Weapon and to have the infantry safe to hold objectives while the Dreadnought is safe from shooting in close combat.

Of course you're not always going to be facing I4 units, or units that can engage in Sweeping Advances (such as Assault Terminators). Such generalities that it is not worth it to try and use Combat Tactics are beside the point because there will be times you should run away and there are times that you should not.

Which brings me to another point: Honour Guard and Command Squads can engage in Sweeping Advances. Being able to engage in a Sweeping Advance is handy against normal units, but irrelevant against Fearless units. Terminators are great against Fearless units because their relatively small number of wounds caused by attacks are increased by No Retreat. But they're less effective against units that run away from them because they can't engage in Sweeping Advances.

Well I will be trying out both, since I can bring in my "Primarch Guard" from the First Company as an elite choice (see my army list in Army Lists and you'll see I've included a Terminator Squad already, easy to change that to an Ass Term squad).

The only real reason i've been trying not to have terminators in the army is the fact i'm doing a 2nd Company army. As such there should be no terminators in it.

On a side note, i'm still unconvinced about changing my Sergeant's wargear. I like the Storm Bolter/Power Fist look. And the amount of times i've seen a Sergeant fell a really powerful unit in White Dwarf battle reports (armed with a powerfist) makes me wonder if a power sword is just trying to cut points.

@Nurglitch - I am not disputing it has some limited tactical options. It just seems very lack lustre compared to Twin-Linked Melta or outflanking Attack Bikes for instance.

I have used it occasionally when I have scoring Bikes.

@Corennus - I think Storm Bolter & Power Fist is the best combo for a Sgt. However it is rather expensive and I often struggle finding the points for the Storm Bolter...

Well being in command squad means points are there to spend. and against the dreadnought the CS was sent against they decimated it in one assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a quick question. Is there any point giving Apothecary and Standard Bearer plasma pistols?

At moment it seems they have pretty basic armament. If the squad is supposed to be able to take on anything then two plasma pistols should help.

Yes it will push the points up...

@Corennus:
Why not just give them Meltas instead...? Do you really need that extra what? 2 Basic attacks if you didn't give the special close combat attacks already?
____________
@Lyracian:
Vulkan is pretty nice.
Khan is pretty average IMO. Outflanking Attack Bikes is really meh.

Corennus wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a quick question. Is there any point giving Apothecary and Standard Bearer plasma pistols?

At moment it seems they have pretty basic armament. If the squad is supposed to be able to take on anything then two plasma pistols should help.

Yes it will push the points up...

I've been pretty Meh about Plasma pistols of late. Personally the only time I'll consider Plasma Pistols on Infantry is if they have a BS of 5+ (which would mean better captains). If I have the choice between a power weapon and a plasma pistol, I'll choose the PW everytime. That being said if you have PPs then you do have some ample shooting before the charge. FNP (from the Apothecary) does help to minimize the chances of losing somebody to Gets Hot.

Having 4+ PP shots before the assault would be kind of handy, but I would rather negate the saves in hth. You'll just have to weigh the risks vs rewards of either option.

Well I've given my Apothecary and Standard Bearer a plasma pistol each. Means they get to do more than stand around looking pretty while their comrades are getting shot at.

And in HTH the Apothecary comes into his own with the Feel No Pain rule applied to the squad.

Plus with the Captain, Sergeant, Company Champion and CC specialist all wielding power weapons the chances are pretty stacked in their favour I think.


Oh I decided i'm not remodelling my captain. the Axe is long enough to count as a relic blade but looks cool enough as it is.
It's gonna be a "counts as"

Corennus wrote:Oh I decided i'm not remodelling my captain. the Axe is long enough to count as a relic blade but looks cool enough as it is.
It's gonna be a "counts as"

Cool, got any pictures of him? I used a Grey Knights Helbard for my Relic Blade.

Other than Dreadnoughts, I think Command Squads are the best place for Plasma. I would usually go with Plasma Guns over pistols. It does depend though if you are planning on charging.

no pics unfortunately. Haven't painted the axe yet. and need to find a Terminator Shoulder Pad for him

Sanctjud wrote:@Corennus:
Why not just give them Meltas instead...? Do you really need that extra what? 2 Basic attacks if you didn't give the special close combat attacks already?
____________
@Lyracian:
Vulkan is pretty nice.
Khan is pretty average IMO. Outflanking Attack Bikes is really meh.

If you're running a bike army, combat tactics is *way* better than outflanking.

Sanctjud wrote:@Lyracian:
Vulkan is pretty nice.
Khan is pretty average IMO. Outflanking Attack Bikes is really meh.

It is not just Attack Bikes. However I take him for the Furious Charge/Hit 'n' Run not the outflanking.
I find him wonderful jumping out of a Land Raider with a full squad of Grey Knights, Assault Terminators or pack-less Assault Marines.

Knights are best since they score and can then take the opponents objective.

Vulkan makes Melta and TH awesome...which is just awesome itself...and then...He's a beast...He can put the hurt down on a lot of things.

Shrike...YOUR SPACE MARINES HAVE FLEET?...awesome.

@Lyracian:
Again, all meh.
What he does is buff one squad. He is not of the same type/level as other force multipliers.

It doesn't change the fact that basically makes the list into a Death Star list...a trick pony list...and the kind that has pretty easy to see weaknesses.

I do agree, should one take him it's for the H&R(which can fail) and the FC, but depending on points level it's not worth it, or not making a huge impact.

Grey Templar wrote:why no Chaplain love?

the ability to grant rerolls on the charce to a single unit and he gets more wargear for his price then the Captain.

Captain gets a CCW, bolter/pistol, 4+ invuln

Chaplain gets a Power weapon, Pistol, 4+ invuln, fearless, reroll misses on charge to unit.

both cost the same.

Love Chaplains!! I field one in almost every list. Either with jump pack in a 10 man Assault Squad, or in Termy armor with a Termy Assault Squad with all Lightning Claws. They give those squads alittle extra punch, which isn't a bad thing. They have always earned thier points in one way or another. Have been thinking of sticking the Chap with my Vanguards.

Chaplains:
They disallow the use of Combat Tactics when joined.
Though the re-rolls are nice, it's only good for Assault terminator like units
Assault marines are better with him but are ultimately mehhhhh in the combat role.

Again, basically you have to dump points for Chappy, Termies, and Raider...which is frankly quite boring...but it works well enough.

Sanctjud wrote:@Lyracian:
Again, all meh.
What he does is buff one squad. He is not of the same type/level as other force multipliers.

And that sums up my view on Combat Tactics, its all meh.
Overall I find Khan to be as useful as Vulkan, YMMV.

Yea.. but to get H&R on that one squad (which fails 1/3 of the time), you give up the 'lesser' hit and run from the rest of your army...it's a big oppurtunity cost.

Vulkan is many levels higher than Khan in terms of force multiplication...everything in Vulkans' army can benefit from him... Khan, not so much, nor is it always useful.

Sanctjud wrote:Yea.. but to get H&R on that one squad (which fails 1/3 of the time), you give up the 'lesser' hit and run from the rest of your army...it's a big oppurtunity cost.

I believe it is one in six not one in three since Khan is I 5. I gain the opportunity of deciding which units to outflank depending on the opponent I am facing. To me that is much more useful than a small change of getting some troops to run away.

Sanctjud wrote:Vulkan is many levels higher than Khan in terms of force multiplication...everything in Vulkans' army can benefit from him... Khan, not so much, nor is it always useful.

Again, my view of Combat Tactics. Neither of us are going to change our minds it is just like some players love Plasma and some hate it because it might kill the user. I never said Khan was better than Vulkan, but he is much better than Combat Tactics.

Your first point is debatable.
In general when in a squad, it's majority stat for Stat Tests...with H+R it is not covered, so it's a house rule. I will err on the safe side and say majority I which would be I4...if he's alone, there's something wrong...

Outflanking is lack luster, the amount of table control is actually less than that of regular reserves.
What ever floats your boat with that.

And we will agree to disagree on Khan being better than combat tactics...Khan is a noob and basically endorses Death Star type lists.