Would you be ok with a major event giving each player a brick of dice? Would you be ok if it added to the price of the event by 5-10 dollars?

I wouldnt mind, it would significantly decrease the chances of dice cheating and you get some dice to go home with.

I don't care either way, Hod. 99+% of people never cheat at dice, and I'm not sure that giving us all bricks of dice would stop the ones who do. But there is some value to reducing the window that cheaters can crawl through.

I'd be fine with both. It would insure, for one, that I could read all the dice. I hate clear or hard-to-read dice. And it does reduce the poential of dice cheating.

I like to be able to roll all my dice at once so as long as there was an option for more then a brick, and some different colors, I'd be happy. If not I'd begrudgingly accept it but wouldn't be very pleased.

jwolf_bols wrote:I don't care either way, Hod. 99+% of people never cheat at dice, and I'm not sure that giving us all bricks of dice would stop the ones who do. But there is some value to reducing the window that cheaters can crawl through.

I agree Jwolf, I feel the dice cheating is not as widespread as it is made out to be but it was one of the questions of the adepticon survey.

I would be fine with it too as long as you have some separate colors in there for faster rolling but that is about it.

A mix of colors (probably three colors for each player) would be best, as stated, but I have no objection.

You'd have to have a selection. Some of us have trouble seeing certain colors on the chessex dice.

What Frazzle? Your saying we can't have Dark Green and Dark pips because you might be color blind ? Awww must suck for you


All kidding aside he does bring up a good point but that can be solved pretty easy by going with Red Blue Green Dice and contrast pips on each side.

For official events, everything should be balanced and fair. No stretchy Tapemeasures, no modified whippy sticks, no 'special dice' none of that.

Standardized tourney dice would address one of the 'perceived issues' as well as giving people a souvenir of the event. Add it to the registration fee.

I prefer my larger dice but I wouldn't have a problem using dice given out by an event. As long as they are readable and everyone has the same ones I'm cool with it.

We did ask this question on the Team Tournament survey (results of which should be tallied shortly). Given the toxic nature of 'competitive' 40K, we were curious to see where this would land amongst AdeptiCon attendees. Opinions outside the tournament/event are secondary to the event itself. The question was:

I would be willing to pay an additional $2-$5 for my Weekend Badge if AdeptiCon provided a brick of approved standardized dice to all attendees and required them to be used in all tournaments.

The problem is, this would require 1300+ bricks of dice (or roughly 50,000 dice) and would be a major monetary hurdle. On top of that...people are constantly losing stuff at the convention. The number of packets, counters, tokens that had to be replaced was staggering. So what do we do when 50 or more people lose their dice? Are they DQ'd from further competition? What would stop them from altering their dice in their hotel room? It's not a perfect solution, but I understand that it affords the illusion of a level playing field.

We have considered it a few times...it might happen, but chances are it won't. In the meantime, the Conduct Policy for our event will remain unchanged:

Dice: AdeptiCon does not require the use any specific type of dice, however your dice must ALWAYS be made available to your opponent to use if they so desire. AdeptiCon reserves the right to remove any dice showing excessive wear, obvious tampering or other questionable deformities.

For the 99.99999999% of players out there that don't cheat, this is not going ot be a problem.

For the rest of the yahoos. They are going to cheat anyway. It's a compulsion. They will either "loose" their dice, unless all dice are in a hideous "con special" color, they will have a second set ready. They will modify them at night for day two. Whatever they can do to give them selves that "edge" they will.

Then, there is the issue of scatter dice. Do you supply those?

So... conventions and large scale events i see how this would pose a problem, as mentioned by Matthias. But at a local level, say at your 'Ard Boys, or even game store tourny/campaigns i am all for this. Several people i play with have dice that are hard to read/and or a mix bag of dice they raided from the family game closet. I think simple choice of a few (darker) colors with white pips would be ideal for official events. The biggest problem with dice cheating is usually not 'loading dice' its un-readable dice or 'fast hands' half of which wouldn't get change with provided dice.

I would be fine, as long as you included something like a Scatter Die.. more dice is always fun.

I have no problem with it.

If someone loses their dice between games or over-night (if a 2-day tournament), then they have to share with opponents.

I like my mixed bag of random dice. I think suppling dice is silly. If you worry about getting dice cheated. share dice with your opponent.

The only concern I have is with special marked dice...

I played a guy who had a mix bag of dice which went beyond just color/finish problems. Some had the special symbol on the 1's some on the 6's some even had special pictures on every side. It made it near impossible to verify any result he rolled. It even caused him to play exceptionally slowly because he didn't always remember what was what when he rolled.

As long as Adepticon's policy of allowing me to use their dice when I need that good roll as well, then its all good. I usually let my opponents know ahead of time that I'm not superstitious about my dice and they are free to use them whenever they like. Anything to make the game go smoother and increase the fun.

Later,
WR

Matthias wrote:
Dice: AdeptiCon does not require the use any specific type of dice, however your dice must ALWAYS be made available to your opponent to use if they so desire. AdeptiCon reserves the right to remove any dice showing excessive wear, obvious tampering or other questionable deformities.

This is the real issue. Internet Toughguys will state "I will break your arm if you reach for my dice" and people have an unreasonable expectation of 'you can't touch my dice'. Dice sharing solves most of the possible dice shenanigans issues. But the problem is people are either superstitious or shifty or defensive about dice sharing so the only response is "fine, if I can't share your dice without you being an ass to me, then I need a 3rd party to verify and issue dice to both of us so I can know your dice are not fishy."

As for the cost, I would think getting bulk dice would be easier for larger events. When you are reserving thousands of dollars for venue and other issues, is a few hundred blocks of dice really that big of deal?

And considering how Blood Bowl events frequently have customized 'block' dice and people share dice in that game, I don't see why getting special scatter or artillery dice are unable to be done either.

And for losing them... Come on, people somehow make it through 6 games at a GT without losing thier supplies. I seriously doubt magically 50 people will lose their stuff now that it is issued.

When you boil it down, the issue is with the players who are Dice jerks be it, specialized dice, not sharing dice or rolling inappropriately. Issuing dice is a non confrontative way for players to have the issue handled by a 3rd party so they don't have to call players on thier gak and risk sportsmanships cores.

Dice: AdeptiCon does not require the use any specific type of dice, however your dice must ALWAYS be made available to your opponent to use if they so desire. AdeptiCon reserves the right to remove any dice showing excessive wear, obvious tampering or other questionable deformities.

So, I could use my roman numeral dice if, say, I provided my opponents with a handy chart for interpreting the rolls and did not "fast scoop" my successful rolls?

Eric

I'm all in favour of standardized dice. Stick a logo on them, and they become a souvenir.

You could even avoid the issue of hotel-room modifications by randomly (say, even or odd table number) having people trade their boxes of standard dice at the beginning of each round. You'd never know if you would be swapping or not, so modding your dice high or low would be a big gamble either way.

I'd be fine with it.

More than anything else, it would drastically reduce the drama around potential dice cheating, which in and of itself is a good thing.

I have no problem at all with getting more dice...as long as I got a choice of colors (I'm particular that way).

I think it's a good idea.
I think all dice should be standard, however. No color variations, size variations, etc.

As for them being easy to read, standard black pip - white dice would be easy enough. Alternatively, you could reverse it to black dice - white pip.

Eric

if the dice are all the same color. it slows down a shooting armies game. where I can pick a squad grab 17 white bolt shots 2 red plasma and 1 yellow lascannon.
roll all the dice once. then roll the winners. much quicker then rolling 17 then winners, followed by 2 then winners, followed by 1 and winners.

please oh please never make us use house dice

I love dice... any excuse to buy more dice... this would actually be a fairly large incentive for me to attend said tourney

Sounds like a logistcal nightmare, though!

What about supply each table with dice, rather then each player?

Cyporiean wrote:What about supply each table with dice, rather then each player?

This seems like it would be a better idea. Then if you get custom ones or something you can just let players split up after the final game or something.

nkelsch wrote:

This is the real issue. Internet Toughguys will state "I will break your arm if you reach for my dice" and people have an unreasonable expectation of 'you can't touch my dice'. Dice sharing solves most of the possible dice shenanigans issues. But the problem is people are either superstitious or shifty or defensive about dice sharing so the only response is "fine, if I can't share your dice without you being an ass to me, then I need a 3rd party to verify and issue dice to both of us so I can know your dice are not fishy."

Is that a real issue you've come across? I say that as I'd be fine with it. I'd just want to make sure I get all my dice back.

I'm strongly in favor of supplying dice, would have no problem with $2-5 dollars more, and would enjoy having the souvenir. Frankly, I'm surprised this isn't the norm.

I would support it only if they supplied non-rounded off dice. I won't use rounded dice because they roll around off the table and everywhere too much. If I had to use rounded off dice for a tournament I'd seriously reconsider going because I'd be paying for something I didn't want and would just throw them away at the end.

To those who might perceive an advantage in squared off dice, I say I'd LOVE for people to be using the same type of dice as me in a tourney! That's the good part of it. The bad part is using dice that are so much of a pain to roll that it's barely even fun playing.

I would be suspicious if TOs handed out dice. They could well give cooked ones to their friends.

G

Have a pool of dice for each table - that would be awesome!

New dice won't have enough time to grow to hate me - like the dice I own do!

This is one of the sillier and logistically impossible things I have heard. No need for tourney specific dice.

Also, why not have the paint/theme judges just check the dice when they check the army?

But in all seriousness, this is one of those "issues" that's not really an issue, but on the internet everyone gets to blow it up all out of proportion, and it's one more thing that the TO's think they have to worry about, and they have enough to worry about already.

There is no need for "tourney" dice supplied at the event.

I'm still not convinced 'dice cheating' is as big an issue as the forums make it out to be. The only challenge I've ever come across is having custom dice where either the '1' or the '6' is a special design. Sometimes it is hard to remember which is which, especially when a person using various custom dice. However, I don't think a person was trying to cheat me. I've learned sometimes to jot notes down in game to save me the trouble.

Either way, I really don't care if I'm supplied dice or I bring my own. If folks are really so desparate as to switch dice in their hotel room, frankly, they have bigger issues in their own lives for me to really worry about playing with my toy soldiers.

Well some people feel its a big problem but I got my own selfish reasons.

I just like collecting some free dice (Yea I know its part of the entry fee but atleast you get to go home with some dice)

I am very strongly against the concept of providing tournament dice. Not only is it logistically difficult to do (even if you made 'table' dice, what are you going to do when those dice are missing for the next round?), it also costs money that has to be pulled from somewhere, likely the money that would be put forth running the event better and/or providing prize support.

But more importantly, I am totally against doing anything that would help perpetuate the myth that steps need to be taken in order to curb the 'rampant cheating' that is supposedly occurring in tournament games of toy soldiers.

Great, dice are now provided by the tournament, are you going to also provide someone to move models for both players in order to ensure that movement is measured consistently between the players? Are you going to have terrain on every table glued in place to ensure that no player is gaining an advantage by sliding terrain pieces? Are you going to assign a judge to each table to ensure that line of sight is being applied uniformly by both players?

The fact is, if there are players out there who want to cheat to win a completely worthless game of toy soldiers, then they're going to find a way to do it.

PLEASE, I hope that no tournament organizer will fall for the idiotic trappings of believing that the need to combat a ridiculous idea calls for removing some of the basic parts of the hobby gaming experience.

One of the reasons I like the game of 40K is because it is fun to roll dice, and I greatly enjoy rolling my 'Dakka' dice and yelling "C'mon, Dakka!" when I need to roll some sixes.

But you want to degrade my tournament experience to protect me against people who are supposedly cheating me with loaded dice?


Just think of how insane that really is. I have almost certainly never played against a player using loaded dice, and if I have I certainly don't care about it, and yet you would want to make me enjoy each of my tournament games slightly less by forbidding me from using my own dice?

I've often thought that the idea of cheating at toy soldier games might possibly be one of the most idiotic concepts possible, but the idea of degrading the game experience in order to combat this supposed cheating is even more idiotic IMHO.


I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If I ever for a second start to care whether or not my opponent might be using loaded dice in a tournament game then that's the moment I need to sell off all my miniatures and pick up a new hobby, because I will have clearly forgotten the point of doing all of this.

Frazzled wrote:

Is that a real issue you've come across? I say that as I'd be fine with it. I'd just want to make sure I get all my dice back.

Yes. I say at least once every tourney I play an opponent who uses regular 'small rounded wargaming dice' for most rolls but keeps a pair of larger, squarer 'special' dice on a hill on his side fo the table for 'special' rolls. Anytime he needs to take an important leadership or armor/cover save, out come the special dice.

And if I want to use them I get some gak about 'mojo' or 'superstition' or 'why would you want to use my dice?'

It isn't so much the dice are 'loaded' it is larger, squarer dice can be rolled in such a way where the player controls the outcome. I met a guy who can roll a 4+ with a yahtzee white square dice with uncanny precision and can do 6s 4-5 times straight. How are we going to curb that? forced use of dice cups? Or forcing you to use junky wargaming dice which means equally bad rolling for all.

I don't like special dice for any reason. If it is good enough to roll 30 of them for random shooting, it is good enough to roll your game-impacting 2+ invulnerable save. Issuing dice makes all the dice 'the same' which is the issue for me, not so much the fear of loaded dice. Using a special or lucky dice that is clearly different, rolled differently and segmented from regular play should not be allowed.

I have to disagree.

Regarding logistics--I don't think this is a nightmare waiting to happen. I've lost dice, as I'm sure most people have. I can't imagine losing enough dice over the course of a couple days to impact play. If you are that absent minded, ask your opponent to borrow his.

On money--I'm pretty sure the OP said the cost of dice would be added to the cost of admission NOT deducted from funds allocated towards prize support or anything else for that matter; so no impact if that is a concern.

On cheating--lol, anyone that thinks dice cheating is rampant has some screws loose. I can see the point of not wanting to do anything to perpetuate the myth but really, I don't think the focus on providing dice should be as a method to curb cheating. However, consider marginalizing the 0.5% of gamers who mod their dice for cheating further. This is a fringe benefit at best and I can't imagine any argument to the contrary.

The parallels you mentioned while certainly ridiculous would indeed be a logistical nightmare. However, if a TO provided me with automatons to move my pieces exactly, fixed terrain at every table, and a personal judge at the table side, I hardly think it would affect my gaming negatively. Actually, lets add a speaker system to broadcast hits/wounds so that I don't have to worry about Johnny Quick Hands, ya dig?

Yes, cheaters are worthless. I don't consider bringing my own dice as an essential part of the gaming experience. Custom dice are awesome, but you can run into more problems than they are worth IMO. Lots have people have commented on the mixed bag of colors, obscure symbols, strange alien patterns...I've never been the victim of a dice cheater to my knowledge, but I would estimate that 1 in 5 games I've played I've been affected negatively to varying degrees by this practice. You want black on white, or white on black?

Oh, you ever come across a guy who has a stack of dice and, over time, if a particular dice has a tendency to roll high he hangs on to it because its clutch; or that guy who throws dice which perform poorly across the room, never to be seen again. I have. Is this person a cheater? If so, does he deserve a spanking?

I don't know about you guys, I love my dice. I call out to all the gods, do my lucky dance, juggle to accumulate mystic powers in the dice--I would do this with brand new supplied dice and my superstitious ass would not care one jot.

Make it about consistency, getting a souvenir, marketing and promotion of the event, ANYTHING. There are lots of good reasons for this. It should not be a countermeasure to cheating, as this is laughable. If some people don't like it, well you know what they say about making an omelet.

nkelsch wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Is that a real issue you've come across? I say that as I'd be fine with it. I'd just want to make sure I get all my dice back.

Yes. I say at least once every tourney I play an opponent who uses regular 'small rounded wargaming dice' for most rolls but keeps a pair of larger, squarer 'special' dice on a hill on his side fo the table for 'special' rolls. Anytime he needs to take an important leadership or armor/cover save, out come the special dice.

And if I want to use them I get some gak about 'mojo' or 'superstition' or 'why would you want to use my dice?'

It isn't so much the dice are 'loaded' it is larger, squarer dice can be rolled in such a way where the player controls the outcome. I met a guy who can roll a 4+ with a yahtzee white square dice with uncanny precision and can do 6s 4-5 times straight. How are we going to curb that? forced use of dice cups? Or forcing you to use junky wargaming dice which means equally bad rolling for all.

I don't like special dice for any reason. If it is good enough to roll 30 of them for random shooting, it is good enough to roll your game-impacting 2+ invulnerable save. Issuing dice makes all the dice 'the same' which is the issue for me, not so much the fear of loaded dice. Using a special or lucky dice that is clearly different, rolled differently and segmented from regular play should not be allowed.

Really, thats interesting. Then again I play with one brick and I roll it for everything. But that brick of dice is older than some of the posters on this board so it has sentimental value, hence the "make sure I get my dice back" thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd note, I'd think some nice dakka equivalent dice handed out to everyone with the the name of the tourney on it would be a very cool takeaway from the tourney.

To answer the basic question, I wouldn't mind paying the extra bit of money for "standardized" dice.

Now to expound a bit.

As has been said, people that are willing to dice cheat will find a way to cheat some other way. My take on this, is that standardized dice doesn't have to be about "preventing cheating". To me it is more about "equalizing the playing field". If both players are using the same pool of dice then you have equalized the playing field in regards to dice. Is it fair that someone that spent 100's of dollars on precision dice should have an advantage over the guy using chessex dice? Is it a miracle solution? No. But I personally think it's an interesting idea.

I don't think you would want people taking the dice to their hotel room at night. The dice would need to be accounted for after every round. I think the dice would have to be table specific, and possibly shared. The colors would need to be changed up every round(or at a minimum between days) or another option would be to have different colored dice on different tables with the idea that getting assigned to a differnt table will handle randomizing up the colors. At the end of the tourney, all of the dice bricks are collected and the participants are allowed to select their dice brick based on the way they placed. I would order the choosing from last place to first.

GG

Black Blow Fly wrote:I would be suspicious if TOs handed out dice. They could well give cooked ones to their friends.

G

Oh, you so blew it! I had dice ready to give you at my tournament that are so hot, they roll 7's! Now you get to struggle along with the crappy, standard 1-6 radomness.

Cyporiean wrote:What about supply each table with dice, rather then each player?

This is what we did for the US GTs (GW) one year. I walked up and down the aisles dumping a bunch of white and red dice and some scatter dice on each table. They stayed on the table for the entire GT.

yakface wrote:
I am very strongly against the concept of providing tournament dice. Not only is it logistically difficult to do (even if you made 'table' dice, what are you going to do when those dice are missing for the next round?), it also costs money that has to be pulled from somewhere, likely the money that would be put forth running the event better and/or providing prize support.

But more importantly, I am totally against doing anything that would help perpetuate the myth that steps need to be taken in order to curb the 'rampant cheating' that is supposedly occurring in tournament games of toy soldiers.

Great, dice are now provided by the tournament, are you going to also provide someone to move models for both players in order to ensure that movement is measured consistently between the players? Are you going to have terrain on every table glued in place to ensure that no player is gaining an advantage by sliding terrain pieces? Are you going to assign a judge to each table to ensure that line of sight is being applied uniformly by both players?

The fact is, if there are players out there who want to cheat to win a completely worthless game of toy soldiers, then they're going to find a way to do it.

I've often thought that the idea of cheating at toy soldier games might possibly be one of the most idiotic concepts possible, but the idea of degrading the game experience in order to combat this supposed cheating is even more idiotic IMHO.

Perfectly stated. I recieved the suggestion of videoing the top 5 tables and reviewing the tapes before awarding prizes. I offered a plate of ground glass with a glass of antifreeze to wash it down in response.

I'm gonna have to second Yak and Jwolf. I think that the idea that there is "rampant" cheating at top tables at GT's is mostly histrionics. Personally I wouldn't want anyone to film my game no matter where i was at the tournament. But the top table is already tense enough if you both know you have a decent shot at overall so why add the drama and tension of being on video.

Overall I tend to agree with the illustrious Yak and Jwolf. Most of the time if you just specify in the tournament rules that players must share dice with their opponents if asked, you’re all set. Players can also contact a judge if they suspect genuinely-loaded dice, and the organizer can do a bucket test.

That said, I would have no objection to the dice idea, and I don’t think it would really be a huge logistical hassle. The organizers really just need to buy three colors in bulk, and distribute a few dozen to each table, to be used as a shared pool. Any modifications anyone could do in a hotel room should be pretty obvious to the eye, and since the dice are shared, if one guy’s die seemed to be rolling hot, his opponent could just use it as well.

This thread > the current thread

Good points here... but the other is more fun

Sarigar wrote:The only challenge I've ever come across is having custom dice where either the '1' or the '6' is a special design. Sometimes it is hard to remember which is which, especially when a person using various custom dice. However, I don't think a person was trying to cheat me.

There's a notorious gamer in my area who does the custom "1 is 6" cheat all the time. I'm always leery of anyone playing with custom dice.

Come to think of it, that would be another reason I wouldn't like assigning dice:

For one, they'd add to the pile of custom dice you could cheat with in non-tournament settings (don't laugh, my worst game experiences ever were not in tourmanents.)
For two, it would make me play against people with custom dice. That in and of itself is an unpleasant experience for me due to my previous experience with said cheater, even if my conscious mind knew the dice were all the same.

I think it'd be nice to have custom dice available for separate purchase, even ordering them ahead of time so that the tournament organizer could accurately plan how many of each color to order.

I think that'd be a great idea... it might even raise some more money for the event that way. I love custom dice so it'd be a nice option... but definitely no need for it to be forced upon people! Just have it as a souvenir item, like everything else.

Custom dice available for purchase.....hrm.


My initial thought is that a block of dice for everyone would be great. But then I realize that I'd have absolutely no use for a second block of dice. I already have three blocks of chessex dice. I think the real problem is that people use custom dice that only have 4-5 pips instead of 5, and 1-2 of the facings are replaced by a club logo or something.

I think a one line addition to the rules packet of an event would be just fine: All personal dice used in the event are required to have six pip facings.

That would do the trick; no custom dice allowed that replace any of the pips with a logo.

Dashofpepper wrote:I think a one line addition to the rules packet of an event would be just fine: All personal dice used in the event are required to have six pip facings.

That would do the trick; no custom dice allowed that replace any of the pips with a logo.

I heartily endorse this event or product.

i like the logo sided dice. I did check a few of my opponents logo dice to make sure the logo was the 6.
but the dakka dice or my "bring it" dice are fine. if you question your opponents dice pick them up have a look. they will not care.

Dice are Dice. If it makes my opponent feel better, sounds good.

You could give them away at the end and call it the booby prize.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:All personal dice used in the event are required to have six pip facings.

But aren't some of the GW dice like this? Doesn't fantasy have the Hammer for one of the facings?

Uriels_Flame wrote:

But aren't some of the GW dice like this? Doesn't fantasy have the Hammer for one of the facings?

I don't know....but my point is that we shouldn't have to care.

Tournaments already have standard requirements:

1. Fully painted and based armies.
2. 4-6 copies of your army list.
3. Tape Measure
4. Codex/Rulebook
5. Dice
6. Any other required gaming materials

It wouldn't be hard to change the dice requirement to "block of chessex non-customized pip-facing dice" or something similar. No one can complain. Preference might dictate that someone prefers dice that others can't read as easily as normal dice, but there's no reasonable objection to be made about it. If you're going to be a circuit player or go to large events and shell out $30-100 plus travel expenses, add $7.95 to your expenses and get a block of legal dice.

Honestly, Dash, I do have a problem with that.
If the tournament is providing dice for everyone (regardless of who pays for it), I'm okay with it. If, on the other hand, they tell me that *I* have to bring chessex dice, I'm going to be pretty p.o.ed. It's pretty common knowledge that chessex dice roll an abnormal amount of 1's.
I'll bring my own dice, but I'm bringing square-edged Koplow dice.

Also, on a separate note, I'm curious. Why does everyone keep saying "pip facing" dice? What would be wrong with dice numbered 1 - 6?

Eric

Its not chessex die that are problematic specifically, its rounded die altogether that are symptomatic of non-randomized rolling, resulting in an increased probability of less 6s and more 1s.

Why don't we take this a step further then?

How about my tape measure, red stick, tac-template doesn't have numbers and has symbols instead?

And my army list is in French. You can tell me what the symbols on your dice mean and I can tell you what the words on my army list mean.

MagickalMemories wrote:Honestly, Dash, I do have a problem with that.
If the tournament is providing dice for everyone (regardless of who pays for it), I'm okay with it. If, on the other hand, they tell me that *I* have to bring chessex dice, I'm going to be pretty p.o.ed. It's pretty common knowledge that chessex dice roll an abnormal amount of 1's.
I'll bring my own dice, but I'm bringing square-edged Koplow dice.

then I am going to request that you use a dice cup for rolling since it is also common knowledge that hard-edge dice can be rolled in such a way to control the outcome when not thrown down a distance on a flat surface. Since board space and wargaming usually does 'shake and drop' the rounded dice help make up for the fact that we are not capable of rolling properly.

One thing rounded wargaming dice do is roll like crap, but at least you can't control the outcome and everyone is in the same boat. You showing up to an event with hard-edged dice and refusing to use the same gear everyone else is using makes you suspicious and rude. If the event says rounded dice need to be used, then they need to be used. The are the only fair dice that can be rolled en masse and shake and dropped. Hard edge dice require a rolling box, dice cups and a sideways roll across a distance to be actually 'fair' where rounded dice don't.

Also, on a separate note, I'm curious. Why does everyone keep saying "pip facing" dice? What would be wrong with dice numbered 1 - 6?

The main beef is people get 'custom' dice with one of the 6 sides being a logo. Some dice make the 1 a logo. Some make a 6 the logo. It is not consistent. When rolling quickly, it is not uncommon for people to forget which are the logos, 1s or 6s which then requires inspection of the dice. Some even put symbols on the dice that make the reading of the faces hard to do. It is a royal pain, especially when someone has 'these dice the large logo is a 1, these dice it is a 6, I collect lucky dice!'

What he means is, he will pretend the logo will be whatever he needed to roll at the time and call you a jerk for thinking he would lie about it. IE: preemptive sportsmanship assault.

How hard is it to just use simple, GW-style white rounded dice?

While cheating may not be rampant, being cheated against is a horrible feeling, especially when you WILL get dinged on Sportsmanship for pointing it out, and trying to stop it.

I would like the 'free' dice, but they should be table dice, not player dice, and they should be a distinctive colour (eg, Lime Green) so that no-one can 'accidentally' take them back to their hotel room, unlikely as that would be.

As for Judges at every table? Certainly, if splitting the event up into a 'Consolation' Bracket and 'Potential Winners' then yes, every 'PW' table should have a judge at it, and an active one, what's more. If they see cheating, they should instantly intervene, not wait for a complaint. If a player can't handle the extra pressure of having a Judge there then perhaps they aren't quite 'Winner' material?

If the tables are close together (likely) one judge per 2 tables is obviously also fine.


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IMO.

Maybe I've been playing at the right events, but I've never run into anything like dice cheating at any event I've gone to. I honestly think that a lot of this "cheater fever" going on right now is incredibly ridiculous. Why should we go through so much effort to skim off what is an incredibly small amount of cheating just seems stupid.

This whole business of judges at every table and such needs to die a quick death also. Most events don't have enough judges for this, and honestly I can say I'd never want somebody sitting there second guessing me for an entire game. Sorry, I hate having to deal with that in my job, I'm not going to deal with it at a supposedly fun weekend. All so some guy can slander me after the event because of a misunderstanding or honest mistake.

I don't know why everyone has gotten so caught up in finding cheaters, but can't we go back to looking for witches/reds/whatever again and stop ruining the gaming experience for everyone trying to root out these few phantom cheaters who apparently play everyone at every event.

hands_miranda wrote: Maybe I've been playing at the right events, but I've never run into anything like dice cheating at any event I've gone to. I honestly think that a lot of this "cheater fever" going on right now is incredibly ridiculous. Why should we go through so much effort to skim off what is an incredibly small amount of cheating just seems stupid.

I don't call providing a 3$ block of dice, easily purchased in bulk for an event that takes almost a year to plan in advance and people bring armies that often take years to model and paint 'so much effort'. In fact, it seems like minimal easy effort for a heck of a lot of payoff in game consistency and souvenirs.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for opponents to use the exact same type of dice for every single roll. I also think it is perfectly reasonable for both opponents to be using the same pool of dice. I also think it is reasonable for an event to require all rolls to be made on a similar type of dice, which would be the default dice provided by GW as we all know different dice roll different ways and impact the outcome.

I wonder how many people would 'trust' me if I had a special tapemeasure that I brought out for measuring distances for a specific unit and used a regular tapemeasure for all other measurements. And when you ask to use my tapemeasure I say 'no'. If you had a problem with it my response was "what? you think my tapemeasure is modified for cheating? cheating doesn't happen! I am marking your sportsmanship down for calling me a cheater!" Using special dice for special rolls, even if they are just innocent dice and you are not loading them or doing special rolling is just as absurd to me, and is frankly rude. If it is good enough to roll in bulk for your attacks, it is good enough to roll for that single cover save or leadership test.

Again, I think people are missing part of the point. I mean... I don't know the motivation for HOD's question. Maybe it was to try and curb dice cheating. But as I said before to me it's more about equalizing the playing field. They don't allow people to bring super duper golf clubs to golf tournies either. Pro golfers are required to use clubs that meet a certain criteria. This is to prevent people from gaining an advantage form using the "super duper big birtha club" of the month.

They also banned stickum from pro football, because the balls were literally hitting the uniform and sticking without the players having to actually catch the ball. Again not cheat prevention but equalizing the playing field.

It would kind of suck for me, because I just ordered a bunch of those custom ork dice, and I wouldn't be able to use them if dice were assigned.

GG

What Grog says.

Dice cheating isn't even the most prevalent form of cheating, IMO, this is preventative. There is no cure, after all.

Cheaters will always cheat, somehow. Of course, if we make it difficult enough, maybe they'll go play something else, and we won't have to care.

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Honestly, Dash, I do have a problem with that.
If the tournament is providing dice for everyone (regardless of who pays for it), I'm okay with it. If, on the other hand, they tell me that *I* have to bring chessex dice, I'm going to be pretty p.o.ed. It's pretty common knowledge that chessex dice roll an abnormal amount of 1's.
I'll bring my own dice, but I'm bringing square-edged Koplow dice.

then I am going to request that you use a dice cup for rolling since it is also common knowledge that hard-edge dice can be rolled in such a way to control the outcome when not thrown down a distance on a flat surface. Since board space and wargaming usually does 'shake and drop' the rounded dice help make up for the fact that we are not capable of rolling properly.

One thing rounded wargaming dice do is roll like crap, but at least you can't control the outcome and everyone is in the same boat. You showing up to an event with hard-edged dice and refusing to use the same gear everyone else is using makes you suspicious and rude. If the event says rounded dice need to be used, then they need to be used. The are the only fair dice that can be rolled en masse and shake and dropped. Hard edge dice require a rolling box, dice cups and a sideways roll across a distance to be actually 'fair' where rounded dice don't.

I'm not bringing a "dice cup" to a tourney, because I'm playing 40K, not yahtzee.
That being said, if you had a cup and asked me to roll using it for the reasons you give, I'd do it without a complaint. I'd ding your sportsmanship... but I'd do it.
Let me explain the "ding," though, before people think it's a knee-jerf reaction.
If you HAVEN'T seen how I roll my dice and you ask me this, then you are making assumptions about how I'm going to roll my dice without giving me the benefit of the doubt.
If you've seen me roll my dice, you'll know there's no reasonable way I could be cheating. I practically hurl my dice.
Now, I'm exaggerating for effect, of course. I don't *hurl* my dice... but I don't "drop" them, either. My dice ROLL across the table.
If I'm rolling one or two dice, I do it from a distance, and I make certain that they're spinning in the air before they hit the table.
So, someone seeing me roll my dice but asking me to use the cup anyway might as well just be telling me, "I see how you're rolling. it looks legit, but I want to make you do this anyway." So, *ding.*

Also, if an event is not providing the dice, but still tells me what kind of dice I must use, I wouldn't attend in the first place. There's enough expense involved with a tourney to make a requisite purchase of dice for this *one* tourney that I'll never use again enough of a slap to make it not worth it to me.

That, of course, is my opinion. I know it varies from some others.

nkelsch wrote:

Also, on a separate note, I'm curious. Why does everyone keep saying "pip facing" dice? What would be wrong with dice numbered 1 - 6?

The main beef is people get 'custom' dice with one of the 6 sides being a logo. Some dice make the 1 a logo. Some make a 6 the logo. It is not consistent. When rolling quickly, it is not uncommon for people to forget which are the logos, 1s or 6s which then requires inspection of the dice. Some even put symbols on the dice that make the reading of the faces hard to do. It is a royal pain, especially when someone has 'these dice the large logo is a 1, these dice it is a 6, I collect lucky dice!'

What he means is, he will pretend the logo will be whatever he needed to roll at the time and call you a jerk for thinking he would lie about it. IE: preemptive sportsmanship assault.

How hard is it to just use simple, GW-style white rounded dice?

Now, I understad all that about custom dice. I've commissioned custom dice before and given them to a buddy as a gift. He uses them on a regular (though not constant) basis.
So, I get that.
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.


Eric


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nkelsch wrote:
I wonder how many people would 'trust' me if I had a special tapemeasure that I brought out for measuring distances for a specific unit and used a regular tapemeasure for all other measurements. And when you ask to use my tapemeasure I say 'no'. If you had a problem with it my response was "what? you think my tapemeasure is modified for cheating? cheating doesn't happen! I am marking your sportsmanship down for calling me a cheater!" Using special dice for special rolls, even if they are just innocent dice and you are not loading them or doing special rolling is just as absurd to me, and is frankly rude. If it is good enough to roll in bulk for your attacks, it is good enough to roll for that single cover save or leadership test.

Would you make that tape measure available for examination at your opponent's request? Just to ensure legitimacy?
If the answer is "yes," then I'd have no problem with you having a separate tape measure for each unit of your army, really.

That's what it comes down to for me. I don't care what anyone does, as long as (a) it's legit or (b) they're willing to be scrutinized.

Want to test my dice to prove they aren't loaded? Fine. Test away. Before the game, after it, during it... I don't mind.

Want to share my dice during the game? Sorry. Old school dice superstitions here.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.

Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

Want to share my dice during the game? Sorry. Old school dice superstitions here.

Your superstition is already unsportsmanlike and unwelcome at many events as you are forced to share dice if asked, and i fyou punish an opponent because they want to, then that makes you, yet again the poor spore and rude. You maintain an unreasonable double standard by refusing to use rounded dice because 'common knowledge' is they roll more 1's but continue to expect unquestioned use square-edged dice which is 'common knowledge' that they are more prone to controlling the outcome of the dice.

The only *FAIR* way to handle this so people like you do not unreasonably threaten or bully players under threat of sportsmanship penalties is to have the event staff set the standard and make it consistent and fair to all people. You may not like it, but at least it is not your opponent's fault and you can't punish them directly for you being forced to use a single type of rounded dice and a common dicepool.

People like you are why this needs to happen because your dice habits and superstitions are rude and hurt the game and you punish opponents if they question it.

Edit: And there are way to many techniques for someone who is aware of techniques to even identify all of them. What they can identify is that the only way to make square dice legit is dice cups and rolling trays. Half of the technique is to shake them in your hand in such a way that your opponent 'thinks' they are being shaken around via the sound, but instead they are not. Rounded edge dice are such garbage it makes it very hard for most dice techniques to be effective, especially on wargaming surfaces. So there is *NO POSSIBLE WAY* for someone to watch you roll and assume you are not cheating. All they see is someone with a hard-on for square-edged dice which is suspicious which then requires people to begin watching the rolling techniques.

The only way to really legitimize all dice rolling is with dice cups... which interesting enough, is what the plastic square container dice cubes come in is perfect for. When rolling 2 or less dice, you should use a dice cup. 5+ dice is pretty much impossible to control the outcome so hands become acceptable.

And I do think this is an interesting part of the 29% 1's rounded dice study:

One thing to consider is that all games workshop games (and most boardgames in general) are designed with these dice and so should reflect this in the gameplay accordingly. If you see somebody using games workshop dice for leadership tests and vegas style dice for everything else, then you can be sure that they are trying to get an unfair advantage though! Try to ensure you are using the same dice as your opponent.

The article that many people claim utter scientific hatred of rounded wargaming dice from explicitly says how these dice behaviors are basically unfair to your opponent and are suspect. If everyone had the exact same dice and was using dicecups for any roll of dice 2 or less, then I would be all fine for statistically superior casino dice for all. As long as it was consistent and fair for all people. If you hate rounded dice, then the 'sporting' thing would be to say:

"Hey opponent, chessex rounded dice roll more 1's than normal. I have brought square dice which are more accurate for being random, I brought enough for both of us so this can be a fair game and we are using the same type of dice. And to avoid dice rolling issues that can be exploited with square dice, whenever one of us rolls something with 2 or less dice, we will use the container as a dice cup."

That is sporting, shows actual drive to have a fair game and most people will accept. If they decline the offer to use thier inferior dice, then it isn't your fault as they roll 29% 1s. You gave them an option of using a completely fair and balanced outcome with no possible motivation of deception or gaining an advantage. I actually think knowing the flaws of chessex dice and sitting there as your opponent rolls with an inferior dice while you use a dice that will provide better results is inherently dishonest and unsportsmanlike. You explicitly bring a dice which you *KNOW* will roll higher than your opponent and then refuse to let him use your dice? Because he wasn't smart enough to go buy them like you? Having unbalanced advantage is ok if he doesn't know he is at a disadvantage? What justification makes it ok since cat is out of the bag, you use special dice explicitly to roll 'better' than rounded dice.

That is all people want. A consistent equal standard. Be it crap chessex dice, or perfectly balanced casino dice. As long as everyone is using the same thing in the same way it is all fine.

nkelsch wrote:Your superstition is already unsportsmanlike and unwelcome at many events as you are forced to share dice if asked, and i fyou punish an opponent because they want to, then that makes you, yet again the poor spore and rude. You maintain an unreasonable double standard by refusing to use rounded dice because 'common knowledge' is they roll more 1's but continue to expect unquestioned use square-edged dice which is 'common knowledge' that they are more prone to controlling the outcome of the dice.

The only *FAIR* way to handle this so people like you do not unreasonably threaten or bully players under threat of sportsmanship penalties is to have the event staff set the standard and make it consistent and fair to all people. You may not like it, but at least it is not your opponent's fault and you can't punish them directly for you being forced to use a single type of rounded dice and a common dicepool.

People like you are why this needs to happen because your dice habits and superstitions are rude and hurt the game and you punish opponents if they question it.

This is pretty much what I wanted to say, I just couldn't put it into words for some reason(so I just didn't post for fear of not getting across what I wanted to).

Thank you, nkelsch.

Another heartwarming thread...

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.

Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

Wait, what? number dice are unacceptable? They are so much easier to read and I can pick through them much easier. Just because everyone uses pip dice doesn't mean I have to.

I'm all for the other stuff you said, but pip only dice is getting into the ridiculous.

I don't understand the slippery slope arguments presented in the thread. Imo major tournaments should definitely issue dice. Major tournaments usually throw in some kind of souvenir bag so the dice can be just that, extra goodies in addition to being another measure to relieve concerns of dice cheaters. Reasons for standard issue dice:

1. Its fair
2. They're extra goodies especially if they're somehow custom for the tournament
3. Another measure to prevent cheating (and although its not the same, just look at the US Golden Daemon cheating controversy as an example that cheating is not as rare as it may be percieved and thats not even the gaming part)

Hell, you could just leave 'em on the table like already mentioned to cut down on costs. Standardized dice help prevent a very exploitable part of any dice game.

As for the whole "there's not that many cheaters at tournaments"...I think people would be surprised since not only is it competitive but at major tournaments there can be some hefty prizes that might be worth a few bucks of fixed dice to help get.

If a prize is a Forgeworld piece worth hundreds of dollars, people are gonna cheat.

Elessar wrote:....Dice cheating isn't even the most prevalent form of cheating, IMO, this is preventative. There is no cure, after all.

Cheaters will always cheat, somehow....

I have no data to back this up, because I haven't ever run into someone dice cheating or even pulling the square edged dice "slide/drop" on me. But I have seen a lot of other stuff, like slipping in extra models that aren't on the list, or conveniently forgetting pertinent rules or movement cheating.

So I would tend to believe that dice cheating is rather rare, compared to other types of cheating. This is why I think dice "cheating" prevention shouldn't be the sole reason for dice assignage, but more of a possible side benefit.

GG

well i got 200 "square" (no rounded corners) dice for $10, they offered bigger discountsfor bigger orders, and had 4 different colors available.

so giving everyone 50 dice of various colors would be less than $2.50 / person.

nkelsch wrote:Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

I actually find the exact opposite.

It is so easy to misread pip dice. Mixing up 4's and 5's, or 2's and 3's is very, very easy when you're quickly scanning 30 or more dice. Numbered dice give much less chance of a mix-up, because the numbers are more distinct.

lixulana wrote:well i got 200 "square" (no rounded corners) dice for $10, they offered bigger discountsfor bigger orders, and had 4 different colors available.

so giving everyone 50 dice of various colors would be less than $2.50 / person.

Are they casino dice sized, or small like chessex dice?

If I could find small dice, I'd buy them, but it seems I either get rounded corner small, rounded corner big, or huge casino dice.

The Pirates game from Wizkids includes small square-sided dice... they're about 2 or 3mm across, bounce like crazy on a hard surface, and aren't actually entirely square. But it's really easy to roll 40 of them...

I have to agree with Matthias. The money aspect isn't my strong suit, but it seems very likely a logistical nightmare. I had enough to do pre-tournament (I mean the morning of) having my staff and I stuff bags with the tokens, counters, that we were giving all of our players.

One more thing to worry about, when it shouldn't be a problem because you can always use your opponent's dice, just seems like its adding a level of complexity that's largely unnecessary. KISS.

insaniak wrote:The Pirates game from Wizkids includes small square-sided dice... they're about 2 or 3mm across, bounce like crazy on a hard surface, and aren't actually entirely square. But it's really easy to LOSE 40 of them...

fixed your typo.

I think Major tournaments / GTs should assign xanax.

Problem solved.

insaniak wrote:The Pirates game from Wizkids includes small square-sided dice... they're about 2 or 3mm across, bounce like crazy on a hard surface, and aren't actually entirely square. But it's really easy to roll 40 of them...

I love that game, great fun!
Dice are irritating though, too small for my manly hands.

I understand that "touch my dice and i Break your arm" is unacceptable. But what about "touch my dice and i break your arm, unless you wash your hands first"

I mean just for those who have cheeto orange finger tips, KFC glossed finger tips, or the guy who was just digging in his ass crack or groin.... Im sorry but some people need some damned germX before touching my dice...

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.

Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

What?
That makes NO sense to me at all.
Are you saying that people can't look at the NUMBER 5 on a die and tell it's a FIVE as easily as they can see five dots in an "X" shape and know it's a 5?
That's a ridiculous notion. Anyone who can look at a group of dice covered in dots and pick out which ones are successes and failures shouldn't have ANY problem doing the same thing with actual numbers. For heaven's sake, we only use "pips" regularly on dice... We use numbers in every day real life. We're inundated with them.

nkelsch wrote:

Want to share my dice during the game? Sorry. Old school dice superstitions here.

Your superstition is already unsportsmanlike and unwelcome at many events as you are forced to share dice if asked, and i fyou punish an opponent because they want to, then that makes you, yet again the poor spore and rude. You maintain an unreasonable double standard by refusing to use rounded dice because 'common knowledge' is they roll more 1's but continue to expect unquestioned use square-edged dice which is 'common knowledge' that they are more prone to controlling the outcome of the dice.

The only *FAIR* way to handle this so people like you do not unreasonably threaten or bully players under threat of sportsmanship penalties is to have the event staff set the standard and make it consistent and fair to all people. You may not like it, but at least it is not your opponent's fault and you can't punish them directly for you being forced to use a single type of rounded dice and a common dicepool.

People like you are why this needs to happen because your dice habits and superstitions are rude and hurt the game and you punish opponents if they question it.

Dude.
WTF is with all the hostility?
Why not dial it down a notch?
I'm sitting here trying to have a POLITE general conversation. I don't need you coming on here calling me unsportsmanlike or accusing me of threatening or bullying people. You don't even know me.
How about laying your assumptions and prejudices aside and trying not to "assume between the lines?"

As for sportsmanship, I max out on sports. scores regularly. The only people who DON'T give me high marks are the TFG's who don't give them to anyone or *ding* the people who beat them. In other words, the people who *ding* everyone's sportsmanship scores.
...and bully and threaten? Where the heck did I do that? Nowhere.
I stated what I would do in certain cases. I never said I would threaten it or even discuss it with the opponent. I would simply do it.

I stated, plainly, that I don't share my dice because I'm old-school susperstitious. I'm not the only one, either.
To be clear on the intent of what I said:
You are not using my dice. Ever. Not happening.
Think it's unfair? I don't care. Want a more even playing field, with everyone using the same dice? Fine. I'll put mine away and use yours. That doesn't bother my superstitions. It's not that I "want an unfair advantage." it's taht I simply don't want you touching my dice... not even to hand it back to me after a roll.

I also stated that I would not attend an event that required me to allow someone else to use my dice, so I would not have to worry about being at an event that "forced" me to share my dice, if asked.

nkelsch wrote:Edit: And there are way to many techniques for someone who is aware of techniques to even identify all of them. What they can identify is that the only way to make square dice legit is dice cups and rolling trays. Half of the technique is to shake them in your hand in such a way that your opponent 'thinks' they are being shaken around via the sound, but instead they are not. Rounded edge dice are such garbage it makes it very hard for most dice techniques to be effective, especially on wargaming surfaces. So there is *NO POSSIBLE WAY* for someone to watch you roll and assume you are not cheating. All they see is someone with a hard-on for square-edged dice which is suspicious which then requires people to begin watching the rolling techniques.

The only way to really legitimize all dice rolling is with dice cups... which interesting enough, is what the plastic square container dice cubes come in is perfect for. When rolling 2 or less dice, you should use a dice cup. 5+ dice is pretty much impossible to control the outcome so hands become acceptable.

So, you're so untrusting that, even if someone LOOKS like he's not cheating, you'll assume he is if (a) he's using square edged dece and (b) not using a cup? I hope that's NOT what you're saying, but that's how it reads.

You might see it as someone "with a hard on for square-edged dice which is suspicious which then requires people to begin watching the rolling techniques," but I see it as someone "who likes to use dice that roll average."

When rolling 2 or less (or 5 or less or whatever) dice, you feel free to use a cup. I'm still using my hands if I want to. If you don't like it, call a judge and have him watch me roll. I've got nothing to hide, and you'll be the one who looks bad to the judges when they see that your only reason for calling them over APPEARS TO BE to intimidate me into doing things the way you want me to, regardless of whether I'm actually breaking any rules or not.

nkelsch wrote:And I do think this is an interesting part of the 29% 1's rounded dice study:

One thing to consider is that all games workshop games (and most boardgames in general) are designed with these dice and so should reflect this in the gameplay accordingly. If you see somebody using games workshop dice for leadership tests and vegas style dice for everything else, then you can be sure that they are trying to get an unfair advantage though! Try to ensure you are using the same dice as your opponent.

The article that many people claim utter scientific hatred of rounded wargaming dice from explicitly says how these dice behaviors are basically unfair to your opponent and are suspect. If everyone had the exact same dice and was using dicecups for any roll of dice 2 or less, then I would be all fine for statistically superior casino dice for all.

That article has nothing to do with my basis for disliking the rounded dice.
1) I noticed ON MY OWN that they roll an inordinate amount of ones LONG before that study started circulating. Playing games like this (board games, RPG's, Wargames, dice games, etc) for 29 years does give you a bit of experience in noticing these things.
2) I find straight edged dice more pleasing to the eye. I think rounded edge dice are ugly in comparison.

Also keep in mind that the "dice behavior" referred to is the specific act of rolling different dice for different checks. Not the act of rolling the SAME dice (that happen to be straight edged) for everything. You're misusing the quote.

nkelsch wrote:As long as it was consistent and fair for all people. If you hate rounded dice, then the 'sporting' thing would be to say:

"Hey opponent, chessex rounded dice roll more 1's than normal. I have brought square dice which are more accurate for being random, I brought enough for both of us so this can be a fair game and we are using the same type of dice. And to avoid dice rolling issues that can be exploited with square dice, whenever one of us rolls something with 2 or less dice, we will use the container as a dice cup."

That is sporting, shows actual drive to have a fair game and most people will accept. If they decline the offer to use thier inferior dice, then it isn't your fault as they roll 29% 1s. You gave them an option of using a completely fair and balanced outcome with no possible motivation of deception or gaining an advantage. I actually think knowing the flaws of chessex dice and sitting there as your opponent rolls with an inferior dice while you use a dice that will provide better results is inherently dishonest and unsportsmanlike. You explicitly bring a dice which you *KNOW* will roll higher than your opponent and then refuse to let him use your dice? Because he wasn't smart enough to go buy them like you? Having unbalanced advantage is ok if he doesn't know he is at a disadvantage? What justification makes it ok since cat is out of the bag, you use special dice explicitly to roll 'better' than rounded dice.

It's actually less sporting and more laughable. If someone said something like you quoted to ME, it would be taken more like,
"Hey, opponent. My intellectual superiority has determined that square edged dice roll average, whereas rounded edged dice are crap. I see you use crap dice. I will gladly share my superior dice with you, so that you might know what it is to roll a real die in a game of 40K. Since I don't trust you to be honest, I expect you to roll small amounts of dice using this plastic container, which will rattle annoyingly before you roll the dice. No need to thank me. You're welcome."

As for giving them the chance for a fair and balanced outcome, should I offer to give their list a once-over and fix any sub-optimal choices? Maybe I should bring an extra copy of my list and army, so they can choose an evenly balanced army if they want, too?

At what point does this (and I stress) GAME become an exercise in hand holding for your opponent?

We each play the army we want, we use the units we want, and we bring the dice we want. As long as we're both playing "legal" codices, abiding by point/rule/unit restrictions, and using dice that are not improperly balanced so as to give us an unfair advantage, what's the problem? Note: dice that roll average is NOT an unfair advantage.

Why should someone with square edged (read: average rolling) dice be considered rude, wrong or otherwise thought of in a negative light in comparison to someone who bought cheap, unreliable round-edged dice? We're all big boys and girls here. If you think someone else has an unfair advantage because his dice are AVERAGE and yours are BELOW average, I suggest you look somewhere else for the true source of the problem.

nkelsch wrote:That is all people want. A consistent equal standard. Be it crap chessex dice, or perfectly balanced casino dice. As long as everyone is using the same thing in the same way it is all fine.

This reads to me like, "Because I want to use cheap, unreliable dice, everyone else should, too, when they play me."

Come on, man. Really? Is it really THAT big of a deal to you what kind of dice someone else uses, provided they're not weighted or otherwise altered to give certain results?

@All

How fair would it be for someone to refer to round edge chessex dice as cheating, unfair dice? I mean, it's well known that they roll a LOT of ones. So, since you use dice that are known NOT to roll average, isn't that cheating, as well?

Eric

Darkwynn wrote:Your saying we can't have Dark Green and Dark pips because you might be color blind?

If you're colorblind to the point of being unable to see a specific color- wouldn't that make it easier to see the pips? Since the color you can't see resolves differently?
I'm not colorblind, so I wouldn't know what a green looks like when you can't see it.


As for the preset dice for tourneys, I'd actually love it- it makes a nice souvenir and helps weed out cheaters if there are any. $5 for a block of 36 dice is a good price imo.
Ideally, I'd want 3 different colors within the set- so I can differentiate specific things like individual attacks/shots or what-not.

Quientin wrote:I understand that "touch my dice and i Break your arm" is unacceptable. But what about "touch my dice and i break your arm, unless you wash your hands first"

I mean just for those who have cheeto orange finger tips, KFC glossed finger tips, or the guy who was just digging in his ass crack or groin.... Im sorry but some people need some damned germX before touching my dice...

I had a bottle of Purel in my pocket during all of A-con for those reasons.

No offence to anyone, but im just not interested in getting H1N1 because I shake quite a few hands while im at that event.

MagickalMemories wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.

Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

What?
That makes NO sense to me at all.
Are you saying that people can't look at the NUMBER 5 on a die and tell it's a FIVE as easily as they can see five dots in an "X" shape and know it's a 5?
That's a ridiculous notion. Anyone who can look at a group of dice covered in dots and pick out which ones are successes and failures shouldn't have ANY problem doing the same thing with actual numbers. For heaven's sake, we only use "pips" regularly on dice... We use numbers in every day real life. We're inundated with them.

This part, at least, is true for me - I have an easier time sorting massed d6's that have pips, rather than numbers. Part of it is pattern-recognition (something the human brain is pretty good at), and the rest has to do with orientation (numbers are normally presented "upright," rather than after all manner of rotations).

Janthkin wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
I wasn't asking about thise dice. I specifically referred to dice numbered 1-6. You know... numbers instead of pips.
I'm asking why people always refer to "pip" dice as acceptable, but not those.

Because most people use pips and are used to visually registering pips quikcly. If someone is not used to numbers and not expecting numbers, they need to visually go over your dice to verify the results rolled are what is rolled. People are used to pips and this happens almost subconsciously for players. Numbers, not so much. Slows down the game, more 'what was the result, let me look' and more 'are you sure that was a 5+?'

What?
That makes NO sense to me at all.
Are you saying that people can't look at the NUMBER 5 on a die and tell it's a FIVE as easily as they can see five dots in an "X" shape and know it's a 5?
That's a ridiculous notion. Anyone who can look at a group of dice covered in dots and pick out which ones are successes and failures shouldn't have ANY problem doing the same thing with actual numbers. For heaven's sake, we only use "pips" regularly on dice... We use numbers in every day real life. We're inundated with them.

This part, at least, is true for me - I have an easier time sorting massed d6's that have pips, rather than numbers. Part of it is pattern-recognition (something the human brain is pretty good at), and the rest has to do with orientation (numbers are normally presented "upright," rather than after all manner of rotations).

Agreed. Also never seen people use D6's with actual digits on them instead of pips in wargaming.

Not to mention, the purpose of these types of events is testing strategy, not luck.



Using the "Loaded dice" excuse is typically the response of those who in MTG use the excuse of "He was using uneven sleeves". It's stupid, and statistically, it may even be impossible to prove. If you honestly feel cheated (like, you were CRUSHED in such a way that you are SURE the ONLY reason you lost was due to CHEATING and not POOR STRATEGY) bring it up to an official, have them test the players die, if you lose sportsmanship points for doing so, the so be it. If you can prove the guy was cheating, the win with a sportsmanship point will benefit you more then the crushing defeat due to cheating! If you care about your sportsmanship rating, but also care about winning so much so that you think the only way you could possibly lose is by your opponent using loaded dice (regardless of if they actually cheated or not), you should really look up the definition of "Sportsmanship" (If an opponent is OBVIOUSLY CHEATING, like, with metal dice and magnets, then you won't lose any Sportsmanship points)...

I mean, no joke, not trying to troll or be mean or anything... but odds are, if you feel you were 'cheated' out of a tourney win because someone was using illegal die or special rulers or 'remote control' rhinos (or "Magic wind moving models/terrain") you probably just lost because your strat was countered/not up to par/too reliant on luck vs your opponents strat. I've seen a doomed 5 man tac squad pass a full out Dire avenger blade-storm and still the player lost the game overall. The SM player wasn't cheating, he was just lucky... conversely even luck could not save him from his opponents superior strategy...

Case and point...
Read your codex
Read up on Tactica
Read OTHER codices (so you know what to expect)
Read the BGB
Read any FAQ/Errata that your tourney is using.
Learn the strat
Win with the strat.

Don't place the blame sandwich on why you lost to 'cheaters'.
And also don't go forcing everyone in the world to buy dice they don't need/want because you want that safety net... because in all honesty, wont you then just be removing your excuse for inadequacy?

Marius Xerxes wrote:

Quientin wrote:I understand that "touch my dice and i Break your arm" is unacceptable. But what about "touch my dice and i break your arm, unless you wash your hands first"

I mean just for those who have cheeto orange finger tips, KFC glossed finger tips, or the guy who was just digging in his ass crack or groin.... Im sorry but some people need some damned germX before touching my dice...

I had a bottle of Purel in my pocket during all of A-con for those reasons.

No offence to anyone, but im just not interested in getting H1N1 because I shake quite a few hands while im at that event.

EXACTLY!!! I cant count the times i see someone itching their teabag and then i cringe when they touch my figs or dice.... that guy just second hand teabagged my figs... Im not a clean freak but i mind 2nd hand teabagging/stinkpalming and/or greasing of my figs and dice.

and OT youre welcome for the puddle of black vomit i left in the elevator at akon last year.... Drunken Wesker had too much Absinthe. maybe Ill visit the 40k table this year.

Quientin wrote: But what about "touch my dice and i break your arm, unless you wash your hands first"

Hrm.

I'm sure that you also roll your regularly cleaned dice in a hygenically sterilized dice box covered in protective cloth, right?

Because its not like the tables you're rolling those dice on are ever cleaned, or haven't been manhandled by everyone, with everyone elses dice all over them, their hands, models, ass-crack juice, cheeto-fingers, KFC juices or whatever else you fear.

I was fine until "ass-crack juice."
LOL

WOW, now there's an image. : )


Eric

As long as they issue good square sharp edged dice from a quality manufacturer like gamescience and not some off balance rolls 1s/6s 33% more often than 2-5s like chessex and other crap makers of dice that just import Taiwanese made super polish tumbled dice.

Of course that would add an extra like 25$ each for 30~ dice to each player so it wouldn't happen and i would say no to supporting such a measure if they only use crappy dice like chessex etc.

kill dem stunties wrote:As long as they issue good square sharp edged dice from a quality manufacturer like gamescience and not some off balance rolls 1s/6s 33% more often than 2-5s like chessex and other crap makers of dice that just import Taiwanese made super polish tumbled dice.

If everyone's using the same dice, does it really matter?

The whole point of issuing dice is to ensure that everyone is on an even field. Not necessarily to ensure that everyone is using perfect dice.

It does matter, actually.

If I'm playing a game and both I and my opponent are having a terrible game, rolling an excessive amount of failed rolls, missing our reserves until late in the game... Yeah. It's going to affect my enjoyment.

I'd rather have a game that was equally as close, with both of us rolling average. Crappy rolls do affect the way you perceive the game and, thus, your enjoyment of it.

Eric

Dashofpepper wrote:

Quientin wrote: But what about "touch my dice and i break your arm, unless you wash your hands first"

Hrm.

I'm sure that you also roll your regularly cleaned dice in a hygenically sterilized dice box covered in protective cloth, right?

Because its not like the tables you're rolling those dice on are ever cleaned, or haven't been manhandled by everyone, with everyone elses dice all over them, their hands, models, ass-crack juice, cheeto-fingers, KFC juices or whatever else you fear.

I have a big tin lid that I roll them in.... and i germx em before they go back into the crown royal bag.... SAFE FROM YOUR ASS CRACK JUICE HAHA. Metals easier to sanitize than cloth. Cmon dude you have noticed the standard in gamer hygiene haven't you? were not all like that but everyone has bad habbits and some have more than most. And you forgot nose pickers...... eeeewwwww

This whole not wanting people to touch my dice due to various body juices argument is fallacious. Don't you shake your oponents hand before or after you play them? I assume you at least offer them your hand at the completion of the game and say "Good Game".

GG

haha I do not offer my hand, but i will shake one offered to me.... and then wash or germx. maybe I am more of a Germaphobe than I previously thought. Curse my EMT training!

insaniak wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:As long as they issue good square sharp edged dice from a quality manufacturer like gamescience and not some off balance rolls 1s/6s 33% more often than 2-5s like chessex and other crap makers of dice that just import Taiwanese made super polish tumbled dice.

If everyone's using the same dice, does it really matter?

The whole point of issuing dice is to ensure that everyone is on an even field. Not necessarily to ensure that everyone is using perfect dice.

Yes it really does matter, a 1 is not the same for all armys, ig players could give 2 craps about 1, 1 and 2 are pretty much the exact same to them, and they cna like rolling that 6 an extra 16.6%, whereas thats extra dead wolf guard for the space wolf player =/

kill dem stunties wrote:

insaniak wrote:

kill dem stunties wrote:As long as they issue good square sharp edged dice from a quality manufacturer like gamescience and not some off balance rolls 1s/6s 33% more often than 2-5s like chessex and other crap makers of dice that just import Taiwanese made super polish tumbled dice.

If everyone's using the same dice, does it really matter?

The whole point of issuing dice is to ensure that everyone is on an even field. Not necessarily to ensure that everyone is using perfect dice.

Yes it really does matter, a 1 is not the same for all armys, ig players could give 2 craps about 1, 1 and 2 are pretty much the exact same to them, and they cna like rolling that 6 an extra 16.6%, whereas thats extra dead wolf guard for the space wolf player =/

Actually, the chessex dice aren't flawed towards rolling more sixes, they're flawed to roll more 1s. IE, instead of a 16% chance of rolling a 1, you have a 26-29% chance.

Redbeard wrote:I'm all in favour of standardized dice. Stick a logo on them, and they become a souvenir.

You could even avoid the issue of hotel-room modifications by randomly (say, even or odd table number) having people trade their boxes of standard dice at the beginning of each round. You'd never know if you would be swapping or not, so modding your dice high or low would be a big gamble either way.

This is genius.

Totally against supplied dice.

1. I get dice that matches my army. I am superstitious, and I don't cheat, nor do 99% of the people out there. When a cheater is caught, they get banned.

2. I injured my right hand a few years ago rock climbing. I have a hard time picking up little dice, so dice would have to be the larger type.

3. At some point, people are going to have to trust one another to do the right thing. I've turned my back on a game to answer a rules question. When I turned back a dreadnaught had magically moved about 12 inches towards my chappy. If we are going to monitor and make sure dice are fair, what about having a judge at every table to monitor moves? Make sure each move is 100% accurate?

4. What about people who have learned to make blanket rolls etc? Are we going to have judges monitor how someone uses dice too? To be honest, its easier to make a controlled roll than it is to use loaded dice. I have loaded dice. You can eventually spot them....Maybe the tournament should require all rolls to be made in a cup....

5. Paint scores....is it fair to have Dave Taylor paint my army, and I get a max paint score while Timmy works hard but is unskilled....Is that also not cheating???

6. Base sizes....are we going to standardize them? What if I make my own and add maybe an eighth of an inch...that could be the difference between getting a charge off or not. Or making my bases smaller, to reduce template blasts hitting me....again, a small cut can make a difference.

7. Number of dice counted out for to hit rolls etc....its very easy to palm a dice or three and thus get extra shots. Can we come up with a way to make sure dice counts are accurate?

8. Bluetooth head seats....how do we know someone doesn't have a spotter who walks by and notices something and calls the player to tip them off? Should we ban all cell phones etc?


Sorry for the rant, but the whole dice thing is silly, and asking tournaments to provide dice increases the cost and logistics for the organizers. If you get picky about the dice, then it leads to a slippery slope where people will find something else to complain about.

If you want to play a game where it is almost impossible to cheat, try chess.

I just had a thought....some armies are more expensive to build then others. How about we put a cash limit on all tournies, so richer players don't have an advantage over poorer players? Or maybe handicap an expensive army somehow....

I'd be for it - but as mentioned, need to have at least 2 colors. 18 Black with White pips, and 18 white with black pips. Easy enough.

I would be fine with the tournie supplying the dice

I think people would rather blame the dice for cheating, rather than look at the more common places the cheating takes place.

Most dice cheating takes place during the tallying of results- theres alot more fast grabbers and miscounters than there are dice loaders.

And measuring/range/movement hacks. We've seen vids of some of these turds recently.

If people are willing to pay 2-5$ extra per tourney to reduce dice cheating- maybe it would make more sense to hire some security people to watch things Vegas style and reduce the more common sources of cheating.

as for the 'losing dice' problem...
40k and minis games like it are, by nature, for mature people with time and money to build, convert, and paint...
if you are playing in a gt, then it means you have atleast three digits in your IQ; keeping track of a brick of dice shouldnt be too much of an issue for most of us...
but if one is lost//misplaced//eaten//exploded//whatever, then they could simply have more to sell when people lose them...

i like the idea of having standardized dice for tournaments, with either logos or colors to give them some meaning outside of being more dice...
and im sure some of the better dice manufacturers can easily solve the lack of a scatter and artillery dice in a standard block of dice...

on that note, da boyz gt in rochester this year will be providing gf9 TAC Templates to players this year, each of them with a name and logo on the side of them...
i saw one of them a few days after the order came in, i cant wait to get mine at the gt ...

Mistress of minis wrote:I think people would rather blame the dice for cheating, rather than look at the more common places the cheating takes place.

Most dice cheating takes place during the tallying of results- theres alot more fast grabbers and miscounters than there are dice loaders.

And measuring/range/movement hacks. We've seen vids of some of these turds recently.

If people are willing to pay 2-5$ extra per tourney to reduce dice cheating- maybe it would make more sense to hire some security people to watch things Vegas style and reduce the more common sources of cheating.

May be extreme but i designed a security system at a club that had problems with ID's. I put a camera in the ceiling angled perfect to catch the ID when the door man held it up to the light and UV light to check for fakes. a similar system could be employed where there is a dice tin with overhead camera to the side of the table. No fast hands. But the con to this is that its like calling everyone a cheater. I guess another pro to this would be more highly detailed battle reports.

If someone is that desperate to cheat, deep down they know that they have never won a game in their life.

but i do love souvenirs, Id be down for some dice.

Cameras are hard security- theres no feasible way to get one on every gaming table at a tourney venue. Vegas can afford to because gambling is a money machine- but aside from GW, no one is really making big money on 40 k

The hard part would actually be finding someone that knew how to spot the various types of exploits- and spotting dice exploits for 40k would be nigh impossible without someone parked on top of a game watching every detail.

But- thats not what security is really about- its about visible deterrent- knowing theres a willingness to hold them accountable rather than letting it slide then posting vids on the internet a week later.

it would be about 50$ per table. reusable, resellable electronics. dice off the camera never happened. then again if it was that big of a problem we'd just throw down a laptop with a dice generator and a logger. Cant blame the twist of the wrist. weight, shape, or fast hands. cept for scatter dice.

now for the making money. People will bet on anything. Maybe we can start a website. set it up like off track betting. treat the players like the jockeys and the armies like the horses.


Oh and by overhead camera i mean the cheapest pawn shop special/ k-mart discount bin camera on a tripod pointed down. not a nice one in the ceiling.

Quientin wrote:it would be about 50$ per table. reusable, resellable electronics. dice off the camera never happened. then again if it was that big of a problem we'd just throw down a laptop with a dice generator and a logger. Cant blame the twist of the wrist. weight, shape, or fast hands. cept for scatter dice.

now for the making money. People will bet on anything. Maybe we can start a website. set it up like off track betting. treat the players like the jockeys and the armies like the horses.


Oh and by overhead camera i mean the cheapest pawn shop special/ k-mart discount bin camera on a tripod pointed down. not a nice one in the ceiling.

You're not taking into account the actual costs. You might be able to buy a camera for 50$, great. You then need to install it, tripods are not cheap, you'll need extension cords to plug them in. Now you have a bargain basement camera mounted over a table. This is even assuming the tourney venue would allow something like this (most will not as the tripod would take up space and be a trip hazard).

A low end camera is lucky to differentiate faces, let alone read pips on a handful of rolled dice. You'd need a cam with at least an 4x optical zoom to consistantly read dice. But that doesnt solve anything.

Your 50$, that doesnt count a monitor to watch this camera. It doesnt include a DVR to record it. And it doesnt include a person sitting there watching the montor either. One person cant watch that many games either- you'd get better results with someone on the floor watching the games in person.

If you did get all of that in place- how it the person watching supposed to know how many dice the gamers are rolling? what they need for successes? Monitoring dice rolls via security system is a impractical notion.

The only practical way to stop dice cheating- is to pay attention to your game.

It's unnecessary to give out dice at events.

In poker a few people will collude and cheat but it really doesn't help them very much because you won't do well in the first place if you aren't a good player. You have to be a great player to have a good chance at placing highly in the standings. Usually cheaters are people who don't put alot of effort into learning how to play, they look for easy ways to increase their chances.

Cheating can really backfire. I know of one 40k player who was known to use loaded dice but rarely placed in the money of a small 10-14 player tournament. He mixed up his dice one day and was rolling straight 1's for rending and 12's for leadership. I played another player in a game of L5R who stacked his deck but he wasn't very good and I beat him even though I was at a serious disadvantage.

I agree with everyone in the part of dice cheating really dosent matter too much. But if they wanted to have custom tourney dice in 3 or more colors that you could take home, I'd be all for it. And cookies

Cookies would be good. Oatmeal raisin, or Berger cookies, or maybe they can get the girl scouts to sell some Samoans....

This is exactly why I don't play outside friendly games in the basement. People get edgy, people get competitive, people can't just expect the other person to do the right thing.

But as far as supplying dice, it's for a good cause, but unfortunately it's just not practical.
Instead, officials/whoever should inspect the dice a player uses before and after every game. I've heard this is easily done by tossing dice in a bucket of water. Loaded dice will always float one side up.

And you guys that are picky about people touching your dice.. get over it. o_o; It's a plastic/wooden cube with holes. Your dice will not be "ruined" if someone other than you touches them for inspection. Just my thoughts.

Wait, you think supplying dice is impractical but having a judge test each die of each player by tossing it in a bucket of water is?

Mistress of minis wrote:
You're not taking into account the actual costs. You might be able to buy a camera for 50$, great. You then need to install it, tripods are not cheap, you'll need extension cords to plug them in. Now you have a bargain basement camera mounted over a table. This is even assuming the tourney venue would allow something like this (most will not as the tripod would take up space and be a trip hazard).

A low end camera is lucky to differentiate faces, let alone read pips on a handful of rolled dice. You'd need a cam with at least an 4x optical zoom to consistantly read dice. But that doesnt solve anything.

Your 50$, that doesnt count a monitor to watch this camera. It doesnt include a DVR to record it. And it doesnt include a person sitting there watching the montor either. One person cant watch that many games either- you'd get better results with someone on the floor watching the games in person.

If you did get all of that in place- how it the person watching supposed to know how many dice the gamers are rolling? what they need for successes? Monitoring dice rolls via security system is a impractical notion.

The only practical way to stop dice cheating- is to pay attention to your game.

agree with all points. I didnt hit a lot of tourneys back in the day because of the headaches involved with people and their paranoia of cheating/ throwing minis and dice on a poor round. but if something like i mentioned would help ease the minds of the overly paranoid and easily frustrated then they are welcome to it. Heres a thought for you though. Paying attention to your game is personal responsibility. Are people who are quick to blame dice and/or cheating for a bad turn prone to your radical ideals?

Ive heard things in this thread that quite frankly make me sick because Im sure the stories wouldnt be here If someone hadnt tried them. Stretchy tape? self moving tanks? I am almost glad Ive missed 2 editions of this game.

Back to the dice topic. If loaded dice are created by drilling em hollow on one side and patching the hole, wouldnt it be prudent to make the dice clear with black dots so you could see if they had been tampered with?

Personally I never got the whole "these are my dice these are yours " thing. I only get funny about it if we are playing with the same type of dice and thats just to make sure mine don't go walk about.

My local GW at one point had a system where each table had a wee folder with a tape measure, set of templates and 30 dice. This worked really well and solved a lot of problems.

I also we to an event at Warhammer World once where they did the same thing. It wasn't compulsory to use them but it was good they were there.

I've only encounter dice cheating once. Guy was using those big dice they gave you with appocolypse (they got the mechanius symbol on them). He was clearly placing them, which is dead easy cos they are so large. I didn't call foul outloud but I did tell the ref, dunno if anything came of it.

Regarding the transparent dice, thats certainly how the casinos do it, s'why most of their dice are clear plastic in one form or another.

I really hate it when some kid has dice with symbols to represent 6's and 1's and what he said was a 6 once is then a 1 later etc.

I use a block of green GW dice (the ones that came in a bigger plastic dice) plus the old metal tin of 40k dice + black reach ones too, to give you the 3 or 4 different weapons you may be firing. I think making people use GW dice or providing them per table would work best. I'd have no issues with paying a few extra $$ to have new nice per tourney though.

AesSedai wrote:Wait, you think supplying dice is impractical but having a judge test each die of each player by tossing it in a bucket of water is?

Yes indeedy. It's free to throw dice in a bucket.

anooci wrote:

AesSedai wrote:Wait, you think supplying dice is impractical but having a judge test each die of each player by tossing it in a bucket of water is?

Yes indeedy. It's free to throw dice in a bucket.

Not really, gotta buy a bucket, gotta have someone sit there and drop the dice in, clean up the mess of fishing them out...

In a bigger tourney this is going to take even more time away from gaming. Then you have to assure people don't switch the dice etc etc.

This is pretty ridiculous as the people that load dice are probly less than 1 in a thousand. Yet through paranoia and a dose of internet forum 'OMGWTFBBQ' people suddenly think this is why they're losing every game. I guess its easier to blame someone for cheating than it is to realise they jsut beat you because they played better.