I am just curious if/how other space marine players use devastator squads, and what configurations you prefer.

I personally run an expensive five man squad with 2 lascannons and 2 plasma cannons, but I'm thinking of adding 5 more tac style marines to defend against assaults and soak wounds.

I know some players shun Devs in favor of predators, and heavy weapons within their tactical squads. How 'bout you?

Its true that Devastators are shunned by most of the SM community. High weapons costs and zero mobility make them highly undesirable.

if you do have to take them, 4x missile launchers, with plenty of ablative wound marines is the recommended way to field them.

If I am taking them, assuming it's not a kill point game, I prefer a ten man squad with 2 las cannons and 2 heavy bolters then combat squad them. That way I can I get 2 squads with 2 LC or HB in each and can direct their fire where it's going to be most useful. Or a 10 marines with 4 HB squad for number of shots. That being said I would usually only field them for fluff reasons.

I run a squad of two plasma or lascannons in a Rhino and then simply camp a corner. It cuts down on the need for ablative wounds and people get surprised when they see two lascannon shots coming out of the innocent Rhino. I also use 4 Plasma cannons when I play against my brother's underpowered firends. None of them have any kind of long range weaponry aside from an Oribtal bombardment so it never gets targeted.

I would (would being the operative word) use them with 2 HB, 1 Lascannon, and 1 Plasma Cannon. I would combat Squad them with 2 HB and Plasma in one squad, and the Lascannon in the other.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about LC Razorbacks? Anyone had any luck with those?

For my Marines I usaly field 3 10 man squads
Plasma Cannon x4
Plasma Cannon x4
Heavy Bolter x4

I usualy Split the HB in to two teams of 2 each for point defence
The PC Squads I leave in thier 10 man squads and look for high ground or to cover any large open ground.

Anpu42 wrote:For my Marines I usaly field 3 10 man squads
Plasma Cannon x4
Plasma Cannon x4
Heavy Bolter x4

I usualy Split the HB in to two teams of 2 each for point defence
The PC Squads I leave in thier 10 man squads and look for high ground or to cover any large open ground.

What point-level games?

Anpu42 wrote:For my Marines I usaly field 3 10 man squads
Plasma Cannon x4
Plasma Cannon x4
Heavy Bolter x4

I usualy Split the HB in to two teams of 2 each for point defence
The PC Squads I leave in thier 10 man squads and look for high ground or to cover any large open ground.

:O

I consider even the cheaper BA Devastators to be ridiculously overcosted. They aren't Long Fangs, so, IMO, they suck.

Anpu42 wrote:For my Marines I usaly field 3 10 man squads
Plasma Cannon x4
Plasma Cannon x4
Heavy Bolter x4

I usualy Split the HB in to two teams of 2 each for point defence
The PC Squads I leave in thier 10 man squads and look for high ground or to cover any large open ground.

That's... 740 points... Good luck opening Mech armies.

O.o

I'd get some cheaper MMs or MLs, or some Uber-expensive LCs, but not 2 groups of suicidals (Gets hot weapons).

JSK-Fox wrote:O.o

I'd get some cheaper MMs or MLs, or some Uber-expensive LCs, but not 2 groups of suicidals (Gets hot weapons).

High risk, high reward. Imagine 4 PCs not scattering on a packed up horde... lots of casualties

2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster

This is normal 2k list for me, the changes made are usually dropping the Command squad and the HB Devs to get a Chapin and a second Assault Squad

1x Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike
1x Command Squad (Company Standard)
-1x Apothecary
-1x Company Champion
-3x Veteran (Bolt Pistol; Plasmagun)

3x 10 man Tactical Squads (Plasmagun x1; Plasma Cannon x1)
-1x Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Chain Sword)

1x 10 man Assault Squad (Plasma Pistol x2)
-1x Sergeant (Combat Shield; Melta Bombs; Plasma Pistol; Power Fist)

2x 10 man Devastator Squad Plasma Cannon x4)
-1 Sergeant (Bolter; Chain Sword)

1x 10 man Devastator Squad (Heavy Bolter x4)
-1 Sergeant (Bolter; Chain Sword)

Validation Report:
c-1. File Version: 1.06c For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Imperial Armour, Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission; 1. Chapter: Codex Chapter
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Total Roster Cost: 1995

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

Anpu42 wrote:2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster

This is normal 2k list for me, the changes made are usually dropping the Command squad and the HB Devs to get a Chapin and a second Assault Squad

1x Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike
1x Command Squad (Company Standard)
-1x Apothecary
-1x Company Champion
-3x Veteran (Bolt Pistol; Plasmagun)

3x 10 man Tactical Squads (Plasmagun x1; Plasma Cannon x1)
-1x Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Chain Sword)

1x 10 man Assault Squad (Plasma Pistol x2)
-1x Sergeant (Combat Shield; Melta Bombs; Plasma Pistol; Power Fist)

2x 10 man Devastator Squad Plasma Cannon x4)
-1 Sergeant (Bolter; Chain Sword)

1x 10 man Devastator Squad (Heavy Bolter x4)
-1 Sergeant (Bolter; Chain Sword)

Validation Report:
c-1. File Version: 1.06c For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Imperial Armour, Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission; 1. Chapter: Codex Chapter
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Total Roster Cost: 1995

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

Has it ever hurt you not having any mech/transports?

Dr. Ew wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:2000 Pts - Space Marines Roster

This is normal 2k list for me, the changes made are usually dropping the Command squad and the HB Devs to get a Chapin and a second Assault Squad

1x Shadow Captain Kayvaan Shrike
1x Command Squad (Company Standard)
-1x Apothecary
-1x Company Champion
-3x Veteran (Bolt Pistol; Plasmagun)

3x 10 man Tactical Squads (Plasmagun x1; Plasma Cannon x1)
-1x Sergeant (Melta Bombs; Bolt Pistol; Chain Sword)

1x 10 man Assault Squad (Plasma Pistol x2)
-1x Sergeant (Combat Shield; Melta Bombs; Plasma Pistol; Power Fist)

2x 10 man Devastator Squad Plasma Cannon x4)
-1 Sergeant (Bolter; Chain Sword)

1x 10 man Devastator Squad (Heavy Bolter x4)
-1 Sergeant (Bolter; Chain Sword)

Validation Report:
c-1. File Version: 1.06c For Bug Reports/www.ab40k.org; b-1. Roster Options: Imperial Armour, Special Characters; a-1. Scenario: Normal Mission; 1. Chapter: Codex Chapter
Roster satisfies all enforced validation rules

Total Roster Cost: 1995

Created with Army Builder® - Try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com

Has it ever hurt you not having any mech/transports?

Or, indeed, any way to crack open those of the enemy?

Seriously, NO Meltaguns??

Has it ever hurt you not having any mech/transports?

-So far...No! though some of the Dreads are a pain.
The Plasma Cannons do have a 36" range and unless he hide in the back 1/4 of the field i can usaly reach it.
This is also a very agresssive force, I have fleet so its worth is to be agressive if i need to be.

Or, indeed, any way to crack open those of the enemy?

Seriously, NO Meltaguns??

Thats why I have Melta Bombs
Seriously though in the current meta i am playing with we have mabye 10 vehicles [Not Counting Dreads] and most of those are for my Space Puppies.

You really, really need to get out more. It can barely open Rhinos, let alone Chimeras. You have utterly no way to stop a Landraider or Battlewagon. That is not an example of a good all-comers list!

Devastators cost a lot, and if you don't build them for anti-tank you'll find yourself lacking it. The rank and file can handle your anti-infantry duty; the Devastators bring the big guns to provide them targets. Quad Missile Launchers, or a 2 Missile/2 Plasma Cannon split are the best options depending on how much AP2 and anti-tank you have. Combat Squad them to maximize your fire efficiency.

Best way to use Devastators? I'm taking this from somebody else's sig (And the original person's quote) but...

Place in box, take out Vindicator, put in list.

Locclo wrote:Best way to use Devastators? I'm taking this from somebody else's sig (And the original person's quote) but...

Place in box, take out Vindicator, put in list.

Vindicator doesn't have very good range though, it seems like a predator with AC and Las sponsons would be more rounded. It also seems like having just one anti-tank option is putting all your eggs in one basket. One Predator or Vindicator is a big obvious target if everyone else on the field are troops. A ten man Dev squad can soak up more damage...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I like Ratbarf's idea: sticking a five man Dev squad with two LCs or PCs in a rhino makes them mobile and give some armor.

With a twin-linked las cannon Razorback you could give a five man Dev squad mobility if they need it, or keep them disembarked and fire on more then one armored target each turn. I think I'll try that next game.

I probably should invest in a Predator too.

DarkHound wrote:You really, really need to get out more. It can barely open Rhinos, let alone Chimeras. You have utterly no way to stop a Landraider or Battlewagon. That is not an example of a good all-comers list!.

True this is not a Good all-Comers list, its primaryaly an Anti-Ork/Nid list.

For All-Comers list I would most likly pull out my Space Puppies
Long Fang Packs
#1 3x Las Cannons, 2x Missile Launcher
#2 5x Missile Launchers
Usually I put a Wolf Guard in Terminator Armor with a Cyclone

I know they are not Devastators, but they fill the role fire support.

Devastators are just that Fire Support. They are best when placed in a location where they can see as much of the battlefield as possible. Set up kill zones with overlapping fire.

Let look at the Weapons Systems
-Heavy Bolter: [36” S-5 AP-4 Heavy-3] This is a good medium ranged fire support. This is a Medium Machine Gun than more than anything else. It is good against hoard armies and normal troops. You can use vs. some transports, but with the nature of cover saves it is not as good as it could be.
-Las-Cannon: [48” S-9 AP-2 Heavy-1] This is a good long range Anti-Tank. It will kill almost anything. Take one and have the sergeant make it BS 5, take 4 and pore white hot death on your enemy, it is hard to go wrong.
-Missile Launcher: [(Frag) 48” S-4 AP-6 Heavy-1, Blast / (Krak) 48” S-8 AP-3 Heavy-1] This is the Most common and versatile Heavy Weapon available to Devastators. It is a Jack of Trades, Master of None, but that for once is its strength. In Frag mode it will rip apart mass infantry positions. In Krak mode it will kill almost anything from Land Raiders to most ICs. Dump 4 of them into a Marine Squad and watch 3-4 of them die instantly.
-Multi-Melta: [24” S-8 AP-1 Heavy-1, Melta] The ultimate Short Range Anti-Tank Weapon, the key word is Short Range. Now in the fire support roll 24” is a short range and the +1d6 at 12” is really short range. However a lot of people think it is only good at 12”, but at 24” it will wreck most transports, it is AP-1, that is a +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table and if is open topped that becomes a +2. if you penetrate an Ork Truck the worst you can do is Weapon Destroyed and 50/50 chance of it exploding. In an odd way this is the perfect anti-speed-freak weapon.
-Plasma Cannon: [36” S-7 AP-2 Heavy-1, Blast, Gets Hot] This is the Missile Launchers bigger more dangerous brother. It can kill most vehicles and just about everything else. It is one of the best for killing Terminators. True there is a 1 in 6 chance that you will need to make 3+ save, but that will come up once every 6 turns and then there is a 2 in 3 chance you can ignore it and remember “Get Hot” or not the weapon still impacts.

What You can do:
-Take 3 Missile Launchers and a Las-Cannon. Combat Squad them with the sergeant and the Las-Cannon and the Missile Launchers. This give you the 3 Missile Launcher Fire Support unit and a Las-Cannon Sniper Squad with 5 Hit Points.
-Take 4 Heavy Bolters and take them as a squad 10 man, combat squad them with 2 Heavy Bonlters in each combat squad and use them to help hold objectives on your. side of the board. This is a good choice to put next to another Devastator Squad to keep deep strikers at bay.
-Take the 10 man Squad armed with Muilt-Meltas and Pod them into the middle of the board to counter act the “Short Range”

I also like the idea of combat squading to create fire arcs; I definitely need to start taking 10 man Dev squads.

12 frag barrages what else would man want?
and are there another me?

Long range tank hunters, with a Powerfist in case things get close. And the BA devs are cheaper by 10 points per gun, so MUCh better to run them with that dex.

long fangs are best of the devs

Happygrunt wrote:Long range tank hunters, with a Powerfist in case things get close. And the BA devs are cheaper by 10 points per gun, so MUCh better to run them with that dex.

If things get close to the Devastators, a Powerfist isn't going to matter 'cause you've probable botched the game. If you're playing correctly, it'll never get used and that's terrible for such an expensive peice of equipment.

Its always possible that a deepstrike or flank could result in exposed Devs, I don't think that necessarily means you "botched the game;" in some cases its unavoidable.

I've always used my Devs (and sniper scouts, for that matter) as a tool for inflicting as much damage as possible before someone gets to them. In some cases its better for them to be such a distracting threat that your opponent wastes time and manpower trying to kill them.

Anpu42 wrote:

Has it ever hurt you not having any mech/transports?

-So far...No! though some of the Dreads are a pain.
The Plasma Cannons do have a 36" range and unless he hide in the back 1/4 of the field i can usaly reach it.
This is also a very agresssive force, I have fleet so its worth is to be agressive if i need to be.

Or, indeed, any way to crack open those of the enemy?

Seriously, NO Meltaguns??

Thats why I have Melta Bombs
Seriously though in the current meta i am playing with we have mabye 10 vehicles [Not Counting Dreads] and most of those are for my Space Puppies.

Melta Bombs aren't AP1. Sucks to be them.

As for only 10 vehicles, a Guard army alone should have more than that. It's not a but, really...sounds like a very uncompetitive area.

No we just enjoy foot sloging, it make the games run longer.
If I am plaing on taking on all comers I usally pull out my Space Puppies and thier 3 Land Raiders

I used to take a semi-nasty dev squad combo in my old Dark Angels. One 10 man squad with 4 rocket launchers, and one 10 man squad with 4 heavy bolters. Those two units pumped out a lot of fire, and they're the cheapest (therefore only viable) options for devs.

Any way you want to use them.
I don't consider them a very serious choice.

I think the best you can do is 10 with 4 of the cheapest hvy weapons in the bunch and combat squad depending on the mission.

Else.

5 Man squad, max hvy weapons

Then set-up either build in a quite area of the table to make them a not so tempting target...away from objectives, better yet in a tall terrain pieces thar either needs DT test to get to or several floors would be better.

Anything going for them is not going for the rest of your army, so at the very least, no matter how looked down they are, they provide target saturation.

Devastators can also be handy for screening duty. Put a squad of Tactical directly behind them, and use Combat Tactics to fall back when they inevitably get engaged. The enemy usually can't close to within 6" because you have the Tactical squad blocking any forward consolidation. Then the Devastators rally, and both Devastators and Tacticals fire point blank into the enemy.

I think that the reason so many players don't use them is that those players don't realize the utility of Combat Tactics and its implications when combined with And They Shall Know No Fear, heavy weaponry, and the combat capabilities of Devastators.

Likewise unlike tanks and Dreadnoughts they can occupy ruins, bunkers, and other buildings in order to get a good line of sight to whatever they may need to: they're worth 100x their weight in lead in a city-fight.

Except...most of the time, you're then losing a Marine that cost at least 30 points. Not really efficient.

Certainly, it's valuable in Cityfight, but IMO the real reason they don't get used is because a Battle Cannon exists. Or a Manticore. Or a Fire Prism. Or Jump Packs...

No, most of the time you're losing a Marine that costs 16pts. Remember that Devastators are the ones with the spare Marines. The differentiation makes distributing AP3- hits very efficient as well, and you get the extra anti-infantry firepower.

If you have problems with Manticores or Leman Russes or Fire Prisms, then use cover. If you hide three Marines out of sight and the two with Heavy Weapons in line of sight, then they get cover. You can reinforce this cover using a Techmarine or Master of the Forge, or you can simply produce it naturally using vehicles or un-naturally using Librarians (well, technically an Invulnerable save, but who's counting?).

Weight of Fire trumps cover Nurglitch.

And the sheer cost of ten-man Devastator Squads led me to assume you meant 5-man. 16 points for an ablative wound isn't truly much of a deal.

I have a few questons for all of those who they cost to much.
Have you used them or are you going by what others think?

If you have used them what experiances do you have that tells you they cost to much?

Well, mine usually rack up about two to three times their point values, but thats more of an effect of the local Meta game than anything. I play against a lot of Termy heavy armies, so my 10 man 4 Plasma Cannon squads pretty much kill two to five units a game with at least 1 being a termy squad. My lascannons don't normally do much, as the only armour that gets run by my opponents is 14 and I use suicide tac squads in rhinos for anti heavy armour duty.

Personally though, if you are looking for anti infantry weaponry you really want 3x Predators with AC's and Heavy Bolter sponsons. If you use that and 2/3 dreads in a space marine mech army you should have enough anti infantry from preds and enough anti tank from the rhino tac squads and the Dreadnoughts can do both. I have killed several landraiders with Assault Cannons in this edition, and they are also amazing at anti infantry.

Not in 5th, no.

I take one look, and then remember that the rules are heavily biased in favour of Mechanised armies, and go with what the basic rules make superior.

I use PAGK version of devastators and I use 4x psycannons and a sergeant (justicar) -- This is effectively 4x heavy bolters with +1 strength. They are perfect for taking out heavy and light infantry. i think it is a waste for devastators to take anti tank options.

Elessar:

Except that the 16pts aren't simply going towards an ablative wound, they're going towards another Space Marine.

If you want to play "trumps" then consider what actually happens when a unit of ten Devastators with four Lascannons hunkers down in Sv3+ terrain against Leman Russ MBTs.

So let's assume the Devatators are tightly clumped in their cover in a 3x3 formation with one hanging on an edge and all deviations going along the 4 model line, so a 0.44 chance of 10 hits (0.33 to hit, +0.11 to deviate equal to or less than 4" or null deviation since the marker can deviate by 1" and still get all of them), 0.07 chance of 8 hits, 0.09 chance of 4 hits, 0.11 chance of 1 hit, and 0.28 chance of missing entirely. That means 5.43 hits to be expected, on average. Of the hits, they wound on 2+ (o.83) and save on 3+ or fail on 2- (0.33).

This results in an average of 1.49 dead Devastators per Battlecannon shot. Let's round it up to two dead Devastators to err on the side of caution. Let's chuck three Heavy Bolters in there just to be sure, so 9 shots, 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 2- to fail saves means 0.98 dead Marines on average, which rounds up to one more dead Devastator.

The Devastators then have a morale check at 0.83 or 2+ to pass (weird eh? Ld9 on 2D6 = 2+ on 1D6, someone check this).

So three dead Devastators. Four Lascannons returning fire on the Leman Russ MBT means one at 2+ and three at 3+. That's 2.81 hits, 0.45 glance, 0.45 penetrate, or 0.15 to destroy the Leman Russ MBT from the front, 0.45 to Stun/Shake, 0.30 to damage (0.15 Weapon Destroyed, 0.15 Immobilized). That's 0.75 to render the LRMBT unable to fight effectively next turn.

If that Leman Russ was in a squadron, those results would get bumped around, so 0.30 to destroy a tank (thanks to the squadron rules), 0.45 to Stun/Shake a tank, and 0.15 for Damage (Weapon Destroyed) or 0.90 to render a LRMBT unable to fight effectively next turn.

In fact such a squadron of two Leman Russ tanks would be more equal to one squad of Devastators in points values, but then weighing x points of one army to x points of another army is a sucker's game since it abstracts from what those Devastators could be doing in context. In context something else would be applying Meltas to the Leman Russes, and the Devastators would be split into Combat Squads to apply Lascannons to Chimeras.

In such a case each combat squad can be expected to take a Battlecannon shot and continue to fight at full anti-Chimera effectiveness providing their pass their morale checks at 0.83 and 0.72 respectively. Then you could expect to see:

1.49 hits from Sergeant Signum-bearing Combat Squad, for 0.24 glancing hits, and 0.75 penetrating hits, and 0.25 chance of destroying the Chimera. 1.32 hits from the other Combat Squad, 0.21 glancing hits, and 0.66 penetrating hits. Following the convention above, both squads can expect to damage a Chimera.

If we round-up our expectations to the nearest 40k relevant integer then we see that the Devastators can be relied upon to render the LMRBT or two Chimeras ineffective next turn after said tank or tank squadrons opens fire on them while they're bunched up in reinforced cover.

If they're lucky they disable a tank permanently, but they'll reliably put it out of business for a turn giving you another turn unmolested by that Battlecannon (and perhaps more if the weapon is destroyed), giving you opportunity for two rounds of Lascannon fire to the tank's one round. That is, of course, in a dual between Devastators and LRMBT, and you'll want them blowing up Chimeras while your Melta-bearing Attack Bikes, Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, and whatnot blow up the Russ.

So for those of you who do not use devastators, what is your preferred heavy load-out?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and how do you use it.

Dr. Ew:

How do people answer the question of how they use Devastators that they do not use?

A friend of mine uses 3 Dev Squads
x4 Las-Cannon
x4 Heavy Bolters
4x Multi-Melta

He usaly places his Multi-Meltas about 4" behined this front line and they can cause a lot of damage so thier short range is not that much of a factor.

Nurglitch wrote:Dr. Ew:

How do people answer the question of how they use Devastators that they do not use?

Not how they use Devastators, how they use their non-Dev heavy alternative.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Smartass.

Nurglitch wrote:Elessar:

Except that the 16pts aren't simply going towards an ablative wound, they're going towards another Space Marine.

If you want to play "trumps" then consider what actually happens BLAH BLAH...
If we round-up our expectations to the nearest 40k relevant integer then we see that the Devastators can be relied upon to render the LMRBT or two Chimeras ineffective next turn after said tank or tank squadrons opens fire on them while they're bunched up in reinforced cover.

If they're lucky they disable a tank permanently, but they'll reliably put it out of business for a turn giving you another turn unmolested by that Battlecannon (and perhaps more if the weapon is destroyed), giving you opportunity for two rounds of Lascannon fire to the tank's one round. That is, of course, in a dual between Devastators and LRMBT, and you'll want them blowing up Chimeras while your Melta-bearing Attack Bikes, Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, and whatnot blow up the Russ.

It should be SIX dead Devastators, if you recall (actually, 5) because 2 LRMBTs = That Devvy Squad. If it's 6, their firepower/accuracy (and Ld) is reduced. You assumed no cover for the tanks.

As you are fully aware, LRMBTs were an EXAMPLE (That I did not give, I merely said Battlecannon) - the principle (anti-Infantry weapons, that vehicles are largely immune to, kill Devastators in droves) holds. Stop pretending like it's 4th Edition, and Foot armies are good, they aren't. FFS, at this rate 6th will be out before you acknowledge Mech is king...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and my Heavy slots are more likely to feature Dakka Predators (85 points) or Riflemen Dreads (125) which, while able to be suppressed more easily than Devvies, have greater mobility (ie, any) and cheaper weapons. Oh, and they can't flee, aren't contingent on favourable terrain, and aren't boned by DoW.

I've been playing mechanized armies since 4th edition Elessar, so I started 5th edition with a fully mechanized Space Marine army, and frankly if you think "mech is king" in 5th edition then you're as strategically narrow as the people that disregarded vehicles in 4th edition.

As I pointed out in my post, the loss of six Devastators does not affect their ability to put 4 Lascannons downrange into the squadron of Leman Russes. As for the other assumptions, you're the one that wanted to play the trump game. No wonder you think "mech is king" if that's the extent of your strategic insight.

But hey, let's address the points in favour on non-Devastator choices. Whirlwinds and Vindicators are definitely cheaper. They cost less points because they're so much easier to knock out. Ditto for Predators, although their extra weapons can give them some extra staying power since a single Damage (Weapon Destroyed) result can't render them useless. Of course they're faster than Devastators if you count being able to move 6" and fire one weapon, because otherwise it's the same business as a squad in a Rhino scooting 12" and then shooting the next turn.

Speaking of Rhinos, did you know that they come with a Searchlight? And that Searchlight illuminates a single enemy unit so that Night Fighting rules are not applied for the rest of the game. That means a Predator with a Searchlight will still need to use the Night Fighting rules to acquire a target, and the enemy will likewise be able to target it in the following turn. A squad or two of Devastators with a Rhino will be able to use that Rhino's Searchlight to find the target and benefit from being hidden by targets.

Of course, the Predator et al will still be able to drive onto the board and shoot during a Dawn of War, right? Right? Good news, if it's Dawn of War then any Predators or Devastators left in reserve will come on after the 1st turn, and the Night Fighting rules are only in effect on that turn!

So the Predators et al will be able to drive onto the board and shoot. It's a good thing for a Predator. Of course a Razorback can also drive onto the board and shoot. So can a Rhino if you give it a Hunter-Killer Missile. Even better, a Rhino with Devastators in it can drive 12" onto the board, dismount the Devastators, use Smoke Launchers, and block line of sight to terrain that the Devastators can run to use. The Predator that arrived on the board, by contrast, is more vulnerable. So while it has an advantage to kill first whatever might kill it, it has the disadvantage of exposing itself to return fire in order to do so.

Furthermore, how many targets can a Predator engage? I count one. A Devastator Squad and its transport can engage three. You'll pay 2x the cost, but that's the price of such effectivness. A Land Raider can engage two different targets while carrying the armament of a Devastator squad, and being nigh invulnerable, but like any vehicle it trades invulnerability to some things for vulnerability to others, and if you're one of those "mech is king!" zombies then it's going to be vulnerable to the proliferation of Melta weapons. Not to mention splitting fire between three units is much less likely to produce optimal results than concentrating fire on one unit, that's just some of the basics of 40k. That's one reason I'm not impressed with Long Fangs: they can split their fire, but you don't get to fire half the squad, check the results, then either fire the other half at the same target or choose a new target, which is inefficient compared to being able to do so, and they don't split incoming fire or maximize overkill, which combat squads do.

It's said that there's no such thing as overkill, which was clearly said by an American, because players in Warhammer 40k have finite resources and wasting some on overkill means another target survives another turn.

Of course the vehicle is not just going to be vulnerable to being destroyed by a single hit, but it's also going to be vulnerable to Shaken, Stunned, Immobilized, and Weapon Destroyed hits. The first makes all those weapons useless, the second makes all those weapons useless and leaves the vehicle open to assault. Same for the Immobilized result. The Weapon Destroyed result isn't that great, but you lose a portion of the vehicle's effectiveness, and once it's immobilized then those Immobilized results also count as Weapon Destroyed results, and eventually they both convert to Wrecked! results. That's if they aren't in a squadron.

I'm not going to say that Devastators are the best choice: that's the mistake you make, Elessar, in supposing that there is a best choice and a worst choice rather than examining how you can make the best of each choice.

In particular if you're going to make the best of any unit then you need to figure out what it can do that no other unit can, and what combinations maximize its effectiveness.

Devastators do Missile Launchers, Plasma Cannons, and Multi-Meltas best. They can also do Heavy Bolters so long as they max out the full squad because those anti-infantry weapons combine with the Bolter armament of non-Heavy Weapon Devastators. Lascannons can be done, but they work best when you have a Rhino, a squad of five, and two Lascannons so you can fire them both out the top hatch. For Plasma Cannons and Multi-Meltas I likewise recommend going two-and-two, and using Combat Squads to break them down for efficient fire control and defense.

They can even work well with Drop Pods so long as you resist the urge to put them down in the middle of the fighting, or in the first wave. Having them come in late and away from the objectives complicates them for the opponent because pursuing them means less material to contest objectives, but their long reach means that they can help clear units that are holding or contesting objectives, mope up immobilized vehicles, and generally leverage whatever position your first wave have established. Take four Dreadnoughts of various kinds in Drop Pods, two Tactical Squads in Drop Pods, two Devastator Squads in Drop Pods, and you have two waves, one to take, and the other to hold.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm not going to say that Devastators are the best choice: that's the mistake you make, Elessar, in supposing that there is a best choice and a worst choice rather than examining how you can make the best of each choice.

The only thing I can add/change is
What works the best for you?

Despite my better judgment, I find myself in complete agreement with you Nurglitch! Thanks for sharing your insights, and thanks to Elessar for providing a counterpoint.

Anpu42:

That's my point, there isn't a choice that "best for me" anymore than there's a choice that's best for everyone.

I think the biggest problem with Devastators is that they aren't a scoring unit. If you invest the 200+ points in a 10 Man Devastator Squad (as I sometimes like to do), they can usually put out a decent amount of hurt, but they tend to sit around occupying home base or an ideal firing position. Since they can't score, that means that you need to devote additional troops to your home objective to actually hold it. This inefficiency makes them less than ideal for home defense.

I find that they tend to work best in infantry heavy armies, where the lack of vehicles and surplus of power armored bodies tends to keep them safe as they tend not to be a high priority target. However, this type of list is no longer very competitive even though it feels a bit more fluffy to play than the current bumper cars direction that the game has moved towards.

I personally don't, because of their prohibitive point cost, and because I would rather take more regular marines to hold objectives. I have seen squads of 4 MLs used to decent effect though.

If you take 3 squads you are using slots that could be used for predators. Predators are a devastator squad with armor value. Your better off taking 3 of them. Any army's troops can hurt a sm, but only anti-tank weapons can hurt a predator. I'm with nurglitch for 'mech'= win!

I'll either combat squad these guys or go for broke in a points heavy game.

I have two devastator squads of 10 men each.

1st squad is anti infantry with added anti armour in the form of meltas:
Sergeant with bolt pistol and chainsword
x 6 heavy bolters
x 2 multi melta
x 1 missile launcher

total 305 points

2nd squad is anti armour. 10 marines;
Sergeant with powerfist
x4 Plasma Cannons
x2 Lascannon
x 3 Missile Launchers

total 385 points

690 points.......that's a LOT.

But with it you can take out just about anything you're thrown against.

One thing though, make sure you keep Devs away from blast range of tanks and never ever keep them bunched up.


The anti infantry are for there to support the tactical squads. Get the squad into cover with a clear field of fire and watch the bolts fly.

Devastators come into their own though on Defend The Objective missions where a heavy bolter or plasma cannon can keep hordes at bay for that one....extra.....turn!!

I was tinkering around with a Blood Angels army list on paper when I considered how I use my 6-mam wave serpent mounted fire dragons in my Eldar army. It seems to me that a 5-man devastator squad in a drop pod equipped with 4 multi-melta’s would be an extremely effective and cheap first-turn AV threat killer… slightly cheaper and more resilient than my fire dragons AND able to hit the target on turn 1.

Am I missing something? Seems pretty spectacular to me.

EDIT: nevermind - I see what I'm missing. I forgot multi-melta's are heavy weapons.

Nothing wrong with that idea Incarna. Problem is that Devs can't fire as soon as they're drop podded in.

Also they're not as long ranged as say a Plasma Cannon or missile launcher, so a melta-equipped team is more likely to get assaulted than a longer ranged team.

Corennus:

Read your Codex. Devastators can only have four Heavy Weapons per squad.

That's better.

Discussing them in the context of opportunity cost is much more sensible.

I AM disappointed though, that you neglected to mention the very real danger of being assaulted if driving them into midfield. It wouldn't take a dedicated Assault unit to smash them in CC - and they'll be easier to break and eliminate than a moving Predator, which can also escape.

You also forgot Thunderfire Cannons - feel free to espouse their 'strengths', and of course Dreadnought variants moved by the Master of the Forge.


Also, the ability to play sub-par lists in other (every?) editions of the game isn't really a 'plus' point. I used to use Wraithguard, because the models were cool, and I didn't know better. Admittedly, that was 3rd.

I use 4 ML in a 5 man squad. It's cheap and effective.

It can easily pop light transports and dreadnoughts.

Anpu42 wrote:A friend of mine uses 3 Dev Squads
x4 Las-Cannon
x4 Heavy Bolters
4x Multi-Melta

He usaly places his Multi-Meltas about 4" behined this front line and they can cause a lot of damage so thier short range is not that much of a factor.

Yeah the MM's always take out more points then they are, the Lascannons would be better if I could hit the broadside of a Land Raider, the HB's score hits with at least 3/4 of their shots but only rarely wound, overall they may not always work but they don't normaly disapoint.

Re-read your codex Nurglitch lol. You CAN have a 10 man devastator squad. Just costs a LOT (300 points plus)

IMHO, don't take devs, take long fangs, so much better... failing that, a dakka pred or three ^^

Ok having re-read and re-read my Heavy Support rules

I now am gonna have:

Squad Orrus (5 marines) 90
Sergeant's Wargear:
Combi-melta 10
Powerfist 25

x3 Heavy Bolter 45
x1 Multi Melta 15 185

Squad Aurelo (5 maines) 90
x 3 Heavy Bolters 45
x 1 Missile Launcher 15 150

Squad Cretalus (5 marines) 90
x 2 Plasma Cannon 50
x 2 Missile Launcher 30 170

Squad Martius (5 marines) 90
x 1 plasma cannon 25
x 1 lascannon 35
x 2 Missile Launcher 30 180


TOTAL 685 points


Obviously for a 1000 or 1500 point game you wouldn't take all 4 squads, but basically there you have an anti-infantry and anti-tank force for only just a little bit more than a tactical squad.
And far less points cost than a tooled up tank killing assault squad.

@Corennus:

Squad Orrus
Why the powerfist? Low body bags and a squad that is supposed to die in combat anyway should not waste those points.
The operational ranges of C-Melta, MM, and HBs are all different. They have no mobility and no split fire and so diversifying is not in their best interest.

Squad Aurelo (5 maines)
Same deal as before.

Squad Cretalus (5 marines)
Same deal as before...in some cases people can abused wound allocations should you use plasma with frag missiles.

Squad Martius (5 marines)
Worst combo in the list.

And there are four squads... there is something wrong here...I'm sure it's easy for you to see.

Lucky for me I haven't got round to putting together my devastators yet.

Ok I might rethink the powerfist (was converting a diff sergeant to a Dev Sergeant and didn't remove the powerfist).

Heavy Bolters and Plasma Cannons the way to go then.

Ok redone:

Squad Orrus
Sergeant with normal bolt pistol and chainsword
3 Heavy Bolters
1 Plasma Cannon

Squad Aurelo
3 Heavy Bolters
1 Plasma Cannon

Squad Cretalus
x3 Plasma Cannon
x1 Missile Launcher

Squad Martus
x 3 Missile Launchers
x 1 Plasma Cannon

better???????????????


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You can take 4 squads of devastators surely!!! It's 20 marines! 20 marines make up two normal squads!!!!

Remember every Squad should have a purpose. Basing everything on this is what you have in models this is the changes I would make and yes the power fist is unnecessary. It will encourage you to get into close combat and the Combi-Melta???, If you are going to take a Combi for a Devastator Squad make it a Combi-Plasma then you will at least have a 24” Weapon.


Squad Orrus (5 marines) [Long Range Fire Support/Anti-Armor]
Sergeant's Wargear: Combi-Plasma, Bolt Pistol
Las Cannon
Missile Launcher
Missile Launcher
Missile Launcher

Should be 4x ML or 4x LC

Squad Aurelo (5 maines) [Medium Range Fire Support/Anti-Armor]
Plasma Cannon
Plasma Cannon
Plasma Cannon
Multi Melta

Should be 4x PC or 4x MM

Squad Cretalus (5 marines) [Point Defence]
Heavy Bolter
Heavy Bolter
Heavy Bolter
Heavy Bolter

Squad Martius (5 marines) [Anti-Horde]
Heavy Bolter
Heavy Bolter
Missile Launcher
Missile Launcher

Should be a 10 man squad Combat Squaded 2x HB/x2 ML

This is using what you had listed.
Personally I would Part out your extra Heavy Weapons with your Tactical Squads

Well my tactical squads all have one heavy weapon in them (3 squads with a missile launcher, one with a MM and one with a HB)

Like I said, I haven't modelled devastators yet so still got time to fine tune them.

Not gonna go with x4 lascannons though. too expensive.

how are you doing 4 heavy support choices?

each 10 man squad can only take 4 heavy weps, so saying its 2 choices combat squaded means you are taking twice the allowed number of heavy weps...

I b so confuzed.

Depending on what I'm up against, I really enjoy a 10-man Dev squad with heavy bolters and a stock Razorback. Put them in a ruin and use the massed fire against hordes, recently exposed guard squads, or Demon Princes. Sometimes I'll opt for a plasma cannon squad with the Las-cannon/TL plasmagun razorback.

I do usually have a lot of melta elsewhere in my list, though.

I use my HW squads primarily as transport poppers (CSM/SW). With CSM I use 2 AC/2ML, 4 ML or 4 AC. Sit them back with LOS on where you can see enemy transports going and let them do their thing. I do the same with long fangs, but usually start with just 3 ML's, 4-5 ML's if i want transport popping power, or 2 PC's if i want some extra MEQ/TEQ killing power.

"Up to four space marines may replace their boltguns with:"

A normal Dev squad is 5 marines (4 marines 1 sergeant)_.
Therefore you can have 4 heavy weapons in a normal squad.

I'm taking 4 squads of Dev marines.


My company is made up of:

55 tactical marines

20 Assault marines

20 Devastator marines

5 scouts.

Overall number: 100

you only have 3 heavy support slots...

Well ok then! I just got myself some points saved!

And i was starting to like my devastators.....

oh well, send in the sniper rifles!!!

Corennus wrote:Well ok then! I just got myself some points saved!

And i was starting to like my devastators.....

oh well, send in the sniper rifles!!!

5 man sniper squad with a missile launcher has worked well for me. Throw Sgt. Telion in there too, he is a heavy weapon in his own right...

Yeah I've upgraded my sergeant to have Telion's profile, not going for missile launcher though.

Seeing how effective they were at destroying my prototype Emperor's Knights in the second ever game I played (4 hits against 4 marines = 4 dead marines in one go)

Giving them camo cloaks I think is a good option. Means they can infiltrate to a good high position then take potshots across the battlefield.

Anpu42 wrote:For my Marines I usaly field 3 10 man squads
Plasma Cannon x4
Plasma Cannon x4
Heavy Bolter x4

I usualy Split the HB in to two teams of 2 each for point defence
The PC Squads I leave in thier 10 man squads and look for high ground or to cover any large open ground.

How does this do agains LRBT and such?

What else do you field to take on AV14?

vagorin wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:For my Marines I usaly field 3 10 man squads
Plasma Cannon x4
Plasma Cannon x4
Heavy Bolter x4

I usualy Split the HB in to two teams of 2 each for point defence
The PC Squads I leave in thier 10 man squads and look for high ground or to cover any large open ground.

How does this do agains LRBT and such?

What else do you field to take on AV14?

Right now I am gaming in a small vacum that I don't face AV 14, the closest I have are 2 Assualt Squads with Power Fist, Melta-Bombs and Assalt Terminators
If my gaming world opens up I will Probably replace the 4 Heavy Bolters with Multi-Meltas and do the same spit.

Never sure about multi-meltas. The ability to fry armour is nice. But I took my tactical guy armed with MM against a terminator squad.

Know what happened?

He caused 0 damage.

Go with Plasma Cannons instead. Longer range and better chance of destruction


I'd personally say Plasma cannon is the most destructive heavy weapon in the game (barring tanks) since it decimated my space marines in every turn

Corennus wrote:Never sure about multi-meltas. The ability to fry armour is nice. But I took my tactical guy armed with MM against a terminator squad.

Know what happened?

He caused 0 damage.

Go with Plasma Cannons instead. Longer range and better chance of destruction


I'd personally say Plasma cannon is the most destructive heavy weapon in the game (barring tanks) since it decimated my space marines in every turn

IMHO, the PC is best against heavy infantry or MC because of its AP value. But against, let's say, ork boys, what can the PC do that the humble frag missle can't except wound on 2's? And with Devs, the points you save from getting a ML instead of a PC is almost enough to buy you another ML.

And in the situation you put up there, the MM is out of its element. It's made to bust heavy armor and it can kill heavy infantry in a pinch, but IMO the plasma weapons are better suited to that job.

Anpu42 wrote:I have a few questons for all of those who they cost to much.
Have you used them or are you going by what others think?

Ah. The ultimate question... elegant in it's simplicity. Kudos to you sir.

I have a squad of 6 with 2 Missile Launchers mounted in a Rhino that I absolutely adore. Park that Rhino somewhere shady and launch Missiles across the battlefield. The Rhino is particularly nice in Dawn of War so that you can get right to a nice spot when you can't shoot anyway.

Corennus wrote:Re-read your codex Nurglitch lol. You CAN have a 10 man devastator squad. Just costs a LOT (300 points plus)

opps nevermind...

i usually run mine for long range. 2x las with either a MM and a HB or Plas cannon and a HB

Adamus Kane wrote:i usually run mine for long range. 2x las with either a MM and a HB or Plas cannon and a HB

Same here. I'm adding a Master Tech marine with conversion beamer for a game tomorrow. 3 ML and 1 MM (for pod'd dreads). Of course this is a total six man squad with a Razorback w/tllc. The devs will set up in the fortified terrain and the Razor will hang out close and take shots of opportunity.

As far as I can see there's no point in taking a Dev squad that fires weapons under 38".

Plasma Cannon and Heavy Bolter fire should soften up any enemy troops before they get to your Tactical or Assault Squads.

And for extra long range missile launchers and lascannons should take out armour before it gets to hurting your guys.

Are Devastators expensive expendable choices? Absolutely
But considering how much firepower a single Dev squad can lay down it normally makes up for its cost in a few turns.

And when it starts knocking tanks out, or entire enemy squads, it's very worth it.

Corennus:

Try playing a game or two.

In time I will Nurglitch. Just finishing up my Dev squads this week.

And my second Assault Squad.

Then got to do my Ven Dread.

Maybe sometime soon i'll be able to pop down to GW (hour's drive) for an evening of gaming.

If wife doesn't throw a fit...

Corennus wrote:As far as I can see there's no point in taking a Dev squad that fires weapons under 38".

You won't think that when you have ironclad dreads or fancy blood angel dreads dropping in your back field. Heck nowadays you can have a land raider drop.

Multi-Meltas are particularly handy if someone drives to drive a heavy transport up your nose. They deal with Battlewagons and Land Raiders equally well.

Range is good, there's just no universal range that is better than any other. 12" is better than 48" if you get +D6 to penetration, and +1 to damage rolls, on your target.

Problem: Heavy Weapons with only a range of 24"/12", but Punch Armor like no tomorow.
+
Problem: Deep Striking and Flying Land Raiders
=
Problem Soved

Nurglitch wrote:Corennus:

Try playing a game or two.

Seconded. Advice should be based on empirical evidence (i.e. math hammering or personal experience), not just flipping through a codex.

I've had luck with a 10 man squad, divided into
5 with 2x HB to thin out hordes
5 with 2x ML to knock out transports or horde duty if needed.

I think the key is not to take anything too expensive, and to make use of cheap and flexible Missile Launchers.

If your Devs aren't in cover at all times, you deserve to have them shot to pieces.

Nothing beats 9 HB's for some all-round anti-creature firepower.

Fl@nked wrote:Nothing beats 9 HB's for some all-round anti-creature firepower.

Well, actually... *cough* Plasma Cannons *cough* *cough*

Ah but for sheer points cost I'd agree with Flanked, Dark Hound.

Some people want to have Dev Squads that don't take up nearly 3/4 the points of their whole army!

10 Devastators with 4 Plasma Cannons, 270
10 Devastators with 4 Heavy Bolters, 230
Price difference of 17%.

In the best case scenario, T3 creatures in cover, the Heavy Bolters will nab 3.5 kills (8.5 hits, 7 wounds, 3.5 failed 4+ cover saves). The Plasma Cannons can nab 3-4 hits per template (up to 7 if you're tank shocking to clump them up). 2 Templates are almost garunteed to stick (1/3 chance, and one other has the Sergeant's help), one will scatter a minor amount (let's say it only tags a single model) and one will miss. So 9 hits, 7.74 wounds and 3.74 kills. The Plasma Cannon has 4 to the Bolter's 3, a 25% difference making it worth the price.

Lets try a regular case, MEQs. Heavy Bolters get 1.8 kills. The Plasma Cannons will get 3.74 kills though. The Cannon's 4 to the Bolter's 2, a 50% increase making it really worth the price.

Devs are great!

i use a 10 man squad with 2 Lascannons, a plasma cannon and Heavy bolter

works fine

So, if 4 Heavy Bolters fire on a Tyranid Carnifex, could it be expected to cause more wounds than 4 Plasma Cannons?

The Heavy Bolters are easy (or should be, derp):

9 shots, 3+ to hit, 3 shots, 2+ to hit, 5+ to wound, 2- fail to save
0.92 expected unsaved wounds

Ditto for Plasma Cannons, with a little extra to hit for deviation within 4".

4 shots, ~3+ to hit (0.33 to 'hit' result +0.28 for deviations less then 5" due to BS4/5 and 60mm base size), 3+ to wound, 0 save
1.63 expected unsaved wounds

A hefty win in favour of Plasma Cannons.

Edit: Thanks sourclams.

Don't use devastaor squads, they are overpriced, you can get a couple predators for the same price

Nurglitch wrote:So, if 4 Heavy Bolters fire on a Tyranid Carnifex, could it be expected to cause more wounds than 4 Plasma Cannons?

The Heavy Bolters are easy:

16 shots, 3+ to hit, 5+ to wound, 2- fail to save
1.17 expected unsaved wounds

4 shots, 5+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 0 save
1.10 expected unsaved wounds

The quest is how much is the estimation of blast deviation, and does it make up for the 0.07 more expected unsaved wounds.

How are 4 heavy bolters getting 16 shots? Accounting for the BS5 Signum, 4 heavy bolters will put a little less than one unsaved wound on a Carnifex.

Four Heavy Bolters shouldn't get 16 shots. I've corrected my post, and may the machine god have mercy upon my soul.

Okay, I made a mistake.

Nothing beats HB's for COST-EFFECTIVE ANTI-VOLUME firepower.

And yes, plasma's can tear hordes apart if they aren't all at max coherency.

Actually, HBs aren't very good at anti horde (I'm assuming this is what you mean by anti-volume). Against Orks, for example, HBs wound 6 Boyz. That's 4 dead Boyz if they have KFF, or 3 dead Boyz if they're in cover. Firing constantly over a 6 turn game, they wipe out less than one Boy squad.

Where HBs actually shine is against single models of moderate toughness/saves without FNP because they can pile all those hits on to force saves. Daemon Princes, single Marines in cover/gone to ground, putting a large volume of wounds onto a small group of models. In almost all other situations, missile launchers are going to be better due to superior AP, Str, AT capability, and blast templates for dealing with hordes.

Against one model in cover 36" away, though, you can't beat the HB.

But what about when you have a nine-HB Dev. Squad? That eats some horde for cheap.

If such a thing were possible, I'd be much more interested. As it is, they max out at 4, and I would much rather have an AC/HB Predator.

Or, in the case of Blood Angels, a Baal Pred. By far my favorite torrent platform, it's a wonderful little tank.

You can only get four Heavy Bolters in a Devastator squad.

Oh #@#$. I need to go look at my marine codex again. Seems I have overlooked a critical detail............

And watch as my arguement goes out the window!

I know the feeling...

So since everybody likes HBs and Plasma Cannons the best combo I can think of is still

X3 Heavy Bolters
x1 Plasma Cannon

Plasma Cannon takes out some of the horde, Heavy Bolters mop up.

All for 160 points (less than a vanilla tactical squad)

I just like the 4 ML. They can do vehicles better than plasma, and i like to fire them Krak at those pesky nobz for insta kills!

Well I played a game with my dau yesterday (her first game!) and I went as Orks (playing Black Reach).

Her Missile Launcher guy hit my Warboss with a krak missile.

Bye bye my best Ork in a blaze of firey ouchiness.

Now I had two orkboy mobs in my army. If she had swappoed the Missile Launcher for the Plasma Cannon my boys would have been in serious trouble. AND my Orkboss might still have been hit.

I lost by the way. Against a captain with two 5 man squads and a Dreadnought.

Then again I should have taken Deffcopters, they'd have made a nice mess of their pretty armoured hides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just curious but.......since Tactical Marines can take a heavy weapon with them and an assault weapon, is it worth tooling up your Tactical Squads with stuff like Plasma Cannons and Lascannons and ditching your Devastators??

mattyrm wrote:I just like the 4 ML. They can do vehicles better than plasma, and i like to fire them Krak at those pesky nobz for insta kills!

Seconded. Squadrons of light-skinned vehicles vehemently object to getting hit with four krak rockets as well.

Not to mention that if you can bottleneck a mob of boyz and hit them with 4 Frag Missile blasts it'll thin them out a bit.

Corennus wrote:Well I played a game with my dau yesterday (her first game!) and I went as Orks (playing Black Reach).

Her Missile Launcher guy hit my Warboss with a krak missile.

Bye bye my best Ork in a blaze of firey ouchiness.

and what on earth was your warboss doing NOT in a big mob of boyz? lesson learned my friend

Seriously though, who honestly uses their Dev's/havoks/long fangs etc in an anti-heavy armour role (av14)? Reliably? You're better off imo working your HW squad into a infantry or light/medium vehicle counter.

Corennus:

How did your Warboss die to a krak missile hit? S8 vs T5 means no Instant Death. A Warboss can survive two such wounds.

Well sorry to admit this but I was trying not to overwhelm my dau with ideas like saving throws. So I didn't have any saving throws for anything the whole game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I was very stupidly using the (Assault) To Wound chart instead of the shooting chart.

Corennus:

What do saving throws have to do with Instant Death?

Nothing, but I've seen this countless times where they have been associated together, comes up every couple of months........ ??? I don't know where they get it

@nurglitch
You said that marines could fire from the top hatch of a rhino. I know they could do this in 4th but im not sure about 5th.

I run in 2000pts battles a 5man 3Ml and a lascannon. at my club its 2000pts when proper tanks appear and we have got the all mech meta game yet. Footsloggers ftw!!
And also: the above loadout is effective when ive been using them.

Rhino's have two firing points (the top hatch)

All the same restrictions to shooting are in effect including moving and shooting. So a small unit of devastators in a rhino with two special weapons can fire from it in relative protection as long as it stands still.

Okay then. Just checked my SM codex and now know this is still legal (DAMN THOSE CHEATING LIARS!!!)
And deuce: Devastators take hvy weapons not special only havocs can do that.

oops haha that is what i meant.

Remember also that the squad won't be able to fire if the Rhino is Stunned or Shaken.

-Plasma Cannon: [36” S-7 AP-2 Heavy-1, Blast, Gets Hot] This is the Missile Launchers bigger more dangerous brother. It can kill most vehicles and just about everything else. It is one of the best for killing Terminators. True there is a 1 in 6 chance that you will need to make 3+ save, but that will come up once every 6 turns and then there is a 2 in 3 chance you can ignore it and remember “Get Hot” or not the weapon still impacts.

Really! My rule book says that for a blast weapon if you roll 'gets hot' it does not fire. Now, I've been out of 40k a while, but has this been Erratad or something?

10 Devastators with 4 Plasma Cannons, 270
10 Devastators with 4 Heavy Bolters, 230
Price difference of 17%.

In the best case scenario, T3 creatures in cover, the Heavy Bolters will nab 3.5 kills (8.5 hits, 7 wounds, 3.5 failed 4+ cover saves). The Plasma Cannons can nab 3-4 hits per template (up to 7 if you're tank shocking to clump them up). 2 Templates are almost garunteed to stick (1/3 chance, and one other has the Sergeant's help), one will scatter a minor amount (let's say it only tags a single model) and one will miss. So 9 hits, 7.74 wounds and 3.74 kills. The Plasma Cannon has 4 to the Bolter's 3, a 25% difference making it worth the price.

Round 3.5 down to 3 and 3.74 up to 4 in order to achieve the 25%. why round (are you not after mean average efficiency?) and why round 3.5 down when normal rounding would put .5 up? And that is after rounding down to get 3.5 in the first place.

Assuming your number of hits from blasts are reasonable then the mean average is 3.54 vs 3.75. Plasma wins by 5.9% for 17.4% more cost

Thats isn't the whole story, the cost is for a whole unit, so the above only applies at ranges > 24"

Given that the other guys in the squad are identical then the plasma has even lower efficieny compared to the HB squad the more shots the other guys get. e.g. if there are 10 bolter shots as well then the comparison is ~5.76 vs ~5.97 so only a 3.6% boost for 17.4% extra cost.

Lets try a regular case, MEQs. Heavy Bolters get 1.8 kills. The Plasma Cannons will get 3.74 kills though. The Cannon's 4 to the Bolter's 2, a 50% increase making it really worth the price.

Looks like ~100% boost to me (though that should be 1.9 for the HB if you are rounding). But again only at ranges > 24". By rapid fire range the boost will be getting to about 50%.


Of course none of that accounts for the Plasma being able to nobble your own men. Assuming for the moment my rule book is correct (rather than the first bit I quoted) then all the plasma averages above should be multiplied by .83. Which would leave:

vs T3 cover saves
HB = 3.54
Plasma = 3.11

HB ~36% more efficient points wise than the plasma

vs MEQ in cover
HB = 1.9
Plasma = 3.11

Plasma about 39% more efficient points wise

So, if 4 Heavy Bolters fire on a Tyranid Carnifex, could it be expected to cause more wounds than 4 Plasma Cannons?

The Heavy Bolters are easy (or should be, derp):

9 shots, 3+ to hit, 3 shots, 2+ to hit, 5+ to wound, 2- fail to save
0.92 expected unsaved wounds

Ditto for Plasma Cannons, with a little extra to hit for deviation within 4".

4 shots, 5+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 0 save
1.10 expected unsaved wounds

A hefty win in favour of Plasma Cannons.

Should be an average 0.94 for the HB. I'm not sure on how you are deciding the Plasma hits (5+ seems awfully low?) the wound should be 3+ to shouldn't it? (S7 vs T6). On a 5+ to hit and 3+ to wound the plasma comes out at .89, so a win for the HB, an even bigger win if you account for the cost discount compared to plasma.

Howver, If any scatter less than 4" is also a hit (as you imply) then isn't BS4 hit rate going to be about 72%? as you have to scatter (2/3) and then roll >=8 on 2 dice (15/36) in order to miss, so a miss rate of ~28%. In that case plasma cannon inflicts an average 1.92 wounds (actually greater after the BS5 thingy).

Possibly adjusted for gets hot, per note above.

VikingScott wrote:Okay then. Just checked my SM codex and now know this is still legal (DAMN THOSE CHEATING LIARS!!!)
And deuce: Devastators take hvy weapons not special only havocs can do that.

of course if the rhino moves the HW devs can't fire.

Byte wrote:

VikingScott wrote:Okay then. Just checked my SM codex and now know this is still legal (DAMN THOSE CHEATING LIARS!!!)
And deuce: Devastators take hvy weapons not special only havocs can do that.

of course if the rhino moves the HW devs can't fire.

That's why my Razorbacks sit there and play cover fire with it's twin-linked assault cannon

mattyrm wrote:I just like the 4 ML. They can do vehicles better than plasma, and i like to fire them Krak at those pesky nobz for insta kills!

True Missile Launchers are the most flexable, but then why do we have anthing else, just like why do we need Flamer and Plasma Gund when we have Melta-Guns
Honestly My Long Fangs use Missile Launchers mostly [7 total between 2 packs], but it is fun watching MEQ's Melt under my Plasma Spam.

DarkHound wrote:

Fl@nked wrote:Nothing beats 9 HB's for some all-round anti-creature firepower.

Well, actually... *cough* Plasma Cannons *cough* *cough*

The Fox Lord wrote:

Byte wrote:

VikingScott wrote:Okay then. Just checked my SM codex and now know this is still legal (DAMN THOSE CHEATING LIARS!!!)
And deuce: Devastators take hvy weapons not special only havocs can do that.

of course if the rhino moves the HW devs can't fire.

That's why my Razorbacks sit there and play cover fire with it's twin-linked assault cannon

Yep same here.

Anpu42 wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

Fl@nked wrote:Nothing beats 9 HB's for some all-round anti-creature firepower.

Well, actually... *cough* Plasma Cannons *cough* *cough*

Touché

Byte wrote:

The Fox Lord wrote:

Byte wrote:

VikingScott wrote:Okay then. Just checked my SM codex and now know this is still legal (DAMN THOSE CHEATING LIARS!!!)
And deuce: Devastators take hvy weapons not special only havocs can do that.

of course if the rhino moves the HW devs can't fire.

That's why my Razorbacks sit there and play cover fire with it's twin-linked assault cannon

Yep same here.

Oh yeah! to bad the due to money issuse I only have one right now

Brother SRM wrote:I used to take a semi-nasty dev squad combo in my old Dark Angels. One 10 man squad with 4 rocket launchers, and one 10 man squad with 4 heavy bolters. Those two units pumped out a lot of fire, and they're the cheapest (therefore only viable) options for devs.

With Blood Angels getting cheaper lascannon and plasma cannons I am using a 10 man squad with 2 of each. This way I can combat squad them. Also a good idea is to put Corbulo or a sanguinary priest with them to make them harder to kill. Devastators in a tower(read ruin 4+ cover) with FNP are going to be extremely difficult to kill. Devestators with las/plascannons in a tower are going to need to be dealt with.

Can somebody please explain the point of taking a 10-man Dev squad. You're only taking a Dev squad for the firepower of the heavy weapons. You're not going to move them much, and if an enemy gets to 12 inches of the squad you've definately done something wrong.

As far as the Plasma Cannon vs Missile Launcher debate goes. I took a squad of 3 missile launchers and 1 lascannon against 2 Vindicators.
The first vindicator was immobilised early in the game but not destroyed. The second managed to tank rush the squad and was only stopped by a VERY lucky Death Or Glory by my lascannon.

Against Terminators my missile launchers didn't do ANYTHING.
If i'd taken plasma cannons (only have 2 modelled at moment) then I think the results would have been a little different.
Yes they're less powerful than krak missiles (Str 7 instead of Str 8), but 3 of them firing on the tanks should have done more damage than the missiles.
And against the terminators they may well have ended up the last squad standing in the game!

In my blood angel army, I use a Dev squad with 2 Las and 2 Plas cannons, split into two squads (signum goes with the Las) and in my Crimson Fist army, I use a 10 man squad of devs with 4 ML (Chronus in a pred annihilator takes care of the bigger things).

I have never been dissapointed with their performance. I like having the assault/closing fire units supported by the heavies. What I normally do with them is use them to pop transports and to soften units up so that the rest of my ground forces have an easier time at it. Plus, it allows me to react to what my opponent fields by providing more tools.

I've played against people who think that a melta gun is the best and only way to kill a vehicle, and those people are generally idiots.

I have only got one melta gun in my army, and that's cause I want to see how it works out.

If you're going to a melta, take a multi melta heavy option for tac squad. That way you can open up with bolters for one shot at 24" AND multi melta.

I'm not saying the meltagun is useless, I'm just saying that people often over-estimate its use in combat, especially when the game has commenced.

But relying on any single thing (especially who's use may be difficult to apply) is not good tactics.

Corennus wrote:Can somebody please explain the point of taking a 10-man Dev squad.

Combat Squads.

Corennus wrote:I have only got one melta gun in my army, and that's cause I want to see how it works out.

If you're going to a melta, take a multi melta heavy option for tac squad. That way you can open up with bolters for one shot at 24" AND multi melta.

Uh... No. If you want to win games, you're going to need an awful lot more than one melta gun if you're playing Marines. Also, infantry based Multi Meltas kind of suck, IMHO. There's plenty of good vehicle options for taking MM that can move and shoot.

Um Monster I only have one melta gun in 1 SQUAD of my marines.

I've got a very infantry based army (mainly cause not got the space to store lots of vehicles), and I have in my squads:

1. Plasma gun and Heavy Bolter
2. Flamer and Multi Melta
3. Flamer and Heavy Bolter
4. Melta and Heavy Bolter
5. Plasma gun and Heavy Bolter.

I'm tempted to change the heavy weapon load outs back to missile launchers.....

Something to think about is Synergy between your special and heavy weapons... Just in case you are shooting them both at the same target.

For example, the things that a Plasma Gun are going to be most effective against such as light-skinned vehicles and 2+ armor saves aren't going to be terribly bothered by a heavy bolter. Now a Plasma Gun and a Plasma Cannon or Lascannon work together pretty nicely!

I'd rather take Missile Launchers over Heavy Bolters anyway, what with the prevalence of Mech these days.

The Heavy Bolters are nice because they can stack wounds on single-model units. Also, generally speaking, the farther your opponent is away from you, the more likely they are to get a cover save, so depending on the table setup, etc, the AP2 may not even be a factor. Both are good choices though.

Honestly though, special-heavy synergy is usually not a big priority on my mind for tactical squads. I want a Lascannon or a Missile launcher so I can take shots at hard targets at ranges that the boltguns would be ineffective at anyways, and when they're close up I can worry about that lascannon turning into a Str 4, AP 5 shot.

I may end up taking three squads with heavy bolters and two with missile launchers / plasma cannons.

My brother used a dev squad with all heavy bolters agaisnt my Orks once. Kind of a for gaks and giggles kindda thing. It surprisingly worked pretty damn well against them. They could only fire at my nobs squad, and they were really hammering me. If it was a bunch of boyz, I would of been in trouble

Monster Rain wrote:
For example, the things that a Plasma Gun are going to be most effective against such as light-skinned vehicles and 2+ armor saves aren't going to be terribly bothered by a heavy bolter.

What do you mean by light skinned vehicles? - Plasma is just a feather duster against av10 compared to HBs. Against a squad of 4 HB toting marines, AV10 vehicles ought to be rather bothered.

Depending slightly on the vehicle size (and how much scatter it can accomodate) 4 plasma cannons are only about half as effective vs AV10 as 4HBs.

Heavy Bolter is designed for use against heavily armoured infantry (Nobs, Crisis Suits, Immortals, Chaos Marine squads) and light vehicels (skimmers / bikes ).
It isn't designed to go up against heavy armour (tanks / terminators).
HBs come into their own at closer range since their 3 attacks will take down most things up to a Captain.

Plasma on the other hand is better at max range. Yes you'll prob get some drift, but for taking out lesser models early in the game there's few finer weapons (without taking tanks or mortars).
And having been on the receiving end I know power armour doesn't stand a chance against it.

Puree: yeah, against AV 10 you have a point. AV 11-12 is a different story.

Corennus wrote:Can somebody please explain the point of taking a 10-man Dev squad. You're only taking a Dev squad for the firepower of the heavy weapons. You're not going to move them much, and if an enemy gets to 12 inches of the squad you've definately done something wrong.

A full 10 man Squad allows you to do a few thing
1] This give your Devistators 5 extra wounds
2] You can take 3 Missile Lanchers and a MultiMetla, Buy a Raizorback, split them into combat squads, one with the 3 MLs and the other with the Sarge and the MM. use one as fire support and the other for tank suport.
3] Take 4 of any HW and split them into 2 Combat Squads with 2 HW each to spread out your fire power.
Remember: If you break them into Combat Squads you can still place them near each other and still concentrate fire.

With my Devistators I have 3 10 man squads, two with 4 PC and one with 4 HB.
I have in the past broke everything [Included Tac Squads] just to cover everything I could
I have started recently to combat squad the HB squad with 2 in each and leave the other two intact. This leaves the me some fire support felxability and two hardy Plasma Cannon Battieries

True, but you can take a 5 man squad with 4 heavy weapons anyway.

If you're going to spend up to nearly 400 points on a squad with 4 heavy weapons, why not save some points and take 2 tac squads with 2 heavy weapons.

When I started developing my 2nd Company army (before I redesigned it to follow Codex) I was adamant I was going to have 2 10 man squads of Devastators with a total of 9 heavy weapons in each....

Would have been fun to be able to do that...

Corennus:

Uh, where are you getting the points value of "nearly 400 points" for a Devastator Squad? Even the most expensive is something like ~310 points for ten Marines and four Lascannons. Add in a Razorback with Extra Armour and Twin-Linked Assault Cannons is ~95 points. But then you have the option of three units, each with anti-tank and anti-infantry capabilities.

Corennus wrote:Heavy Bolter is designed for use against heavily armoured infantry (Nobs, Crisis Suits, Immortals, Chaos Marine squads) and light vehicels (skimmers / bikes ).
It isn't designed to go up against heavy armour (tanks / terminators).
HBs come into their own at closer range since their 3 attacks will take down most things up to a Captain.

Plasma on the other hand is better at max range. Yes you'll prob get some drift, but for taking out lesser models early in the game there's few finer weapons (without taking tanks or mortars).
And having been on the receiving end I know power armour doesn't stand a chance against it.

Marines in the open? I'd rather my 1 melta shot to snap 1 for sure than 3 easy wounding bolter shots. Denying marines armour saves hurts, and bloody well hurts bad. Especially if its a weapon that can ignore FNP. I'm kind of grateful for having played Plague marines for awhile, as now I can recall all those nasty weapons that tore them asunder- for when i play the "mighty" FNP blood angels units. The plasma cannon is as effetive vs hordes as it is vs marines. Also works wonders on terminators and FNP units

Corennus wrote:Against Terminators my missile launchers didn't do ANYTHING.
If i'd taken plasma cannons (only have 2 modelled at moment) then I think the results would have been a little different.
Yes they're less powerful than krak missiles (Str 7 instead of Str 8), but 3 of them firing on the tanks should have done more damage than the missiles.
And against the terminators they may well have ended up the last squad standing in the game!

uhhhhhhhhhhhh... duh? It doesn't have the AP. I'm confused, what where you expecting them to do vs terminators ?

Corennus wrote:Can somebody please explain the point of taking a 10-man Dev squad. You're only taking a Dev squad for the firepower of the heavy weapons. You're not going to move them much, and if an enemy gets to 12 inches of the squad you've definately done something wrong.

More durable.

Let's say a pred shoots 2 heavy bolters and an autocannon at you. It's going to do 3-4 wounds and odds are your going to lose a guy. Since most of the saves will be on heavy weapons it's probably going to be one of them.

Or a pod with 4 combi plasmas drops in, if they can negate your cover, you just lost 6 guys. If you had 10 guys, you'd still have your 4 heavy weapons.

As far as how I use them? 5 guys with 2 missile launchers or 2 plasma cannons in a rhino, or 10 guys with 4 missile launchers in some cover.

Plasma ignores Armour Saves Jhallah.

And in response to "you can't get a Dev squad to 400 points" OH YES YOU CAN

10 man Dev Squad

Sergeant's Wargear:
Plasma Pistol
Power Sword
Melta Bombs

x 4 Lascannon

Razorback
Twin-Linked Assault Cannon
Storm Bolter
Dozer Blade
Extra Armour

Total: 450 points.

YES, if the squad is on foot the max points is 355, but my point is 450 points for 10 guys and a tank (even if it is fully upgraded)???

For the same amount of points you could get:

Tac Squad 1 (10 SM)
Sergeant wargear:
Chainsword
Storm Bolter

Plasma Gun
Plasma Cannon

Cost: 195

Tac Squad 2 (10 Marines)
Sergeant Wargear:
Power Sword

Flamer
Heavy Bolter

Cost: 185

Rhinos x 2

Cost: 70

TOTAL: 450

I don't think the point was that there's no way to make a Devastator Squad cost 400 points.

The point was that they shouldn't cost that much. Putting that much upgrades on one squad is pretty foolish IMHO, particularly CC upgrades on a Shooty unit.

Yeah, I'm giving my sergeants normal bolters, so can at least engage at 24" instead of 12" for pistol. Was thinking about Storm Bolter, but not worth it.

I'm still undecided as to the layout of my Devastators, but I think two Plasma cannons and three Heavy bolters split among my tactical squads leaves more room to give my Devs some very long range firepower (missile Launchers / Lascannons)

Corennus wrote:Plasma ignores Armour Saves Jhallah.

And in response to "you can't get a Dev squad to 400 points" OH YES YOU CAN

I would have thought that me saying "Playing plague marines has taught me all kinds of ways of negating feel no pain!" would have made you thought "yes, this guy does not like plasma cannons pointed at him"! I just said i would rather a gun that does ignore their armour, even a multimelta, over a heavy bolter if those marines are in the open. On the same note, I'd rather a plasma pistol over the HB in such a situation!

I would honestly not spend a single point on the sarge. Swap his bolter for a pistol, thats pretty much a given, but nothing else is really worth it on him. Unless you have a Plasma cannon squad and you are very much expecting marines up in your face (BA assault armies/termicide anyone?), then a combiplas is worth it for those extra shots to make sure you gun down that squad

Lascannons en mass are a poor idea...even a single one to use with the signum is IMO questionable.

Sternguard with 2 lascannons are actually cheaper than a similarly kitted out Dev squad....crazy right?

I say just keep the missiles as they are the all-comer weapon. Jack of all trades is the master of none.

Well for the whole company i'm taking 2 Dev Squads with just Missile Launchers, and one expensive squad of 3 lascannons and a ML.

I just want to see how the 3 lascannons firing together work out.

A Techmarine beefing up some ruins in your deploymen zone can give your Devs a 2+ cover save to hide in...

Techmarines can give a ruin +1 to its save, bringing it from 4+ to 3+, only if the unit has the "stealth" USR or a similar ability would it get a 2+ save.

Corennus wrote:Yeah, I'm giving my sergeants normal bolters, so can at least engage at 24" instead of 12" for pistol. Was thinking about Storm Bolter, but not worth it.

IMHO only reason I've found for Storm Bolter being not worth it is your always using the Signum...a Power fist on the other hand can sometimes be a life saver (or at least your srg. can rampage across the battlefield once all the HW are dead) (I've had had this happen more times then I care to think about...it is theraputic though)

Corennus wrote:Yeah, I'm giving my sergeants normal bolters, so can at least engage at 24" instead of 12" for pistol. Was thinking about Storm Bolter, but not worth it.

I'm still undecided as to the layout of my Devastators, but I think two Plasma cannons and three Heavy bolters split among my tactical squads leaves more room to give my Devs some very long range firepower (missile Launchers / Lascannons)

Well, iirc, the sergeant has a bolter and bolt pistol (as do pretty much every space marine) so you can choose to use either, like for example, one of your tac squads is about to be charged, you can choose for everyone,minus the guy with the flamer or melta, to fire their pistols and then charge.

Back to the topic at hand, I use 4x ML because they can pop rhinos and other av11 much more reliably then plasma cannons or just to fire into MEQ units and deny them their armor saves.

While plasma cannons can also deny armor saves, the range is shorter and there are also much cheaper ways, such as tac squads, to field them.

I did this topics months back, i was advised to take 4x ML. I used them in a Couple of Games, no looking back.

Devs with 4x ML's everytime, they are just versatile as anything, cheap as and the you save points for something else.

Tournament players seem to go with ML's especially in 750 - 500 pt tourneys.

Everything everyone is going on about is personal Pref. ML's are cheap, spam out your squad with a further 5 x Marines and use them as Wound/Shields.

They don't work perfectly everytime (Dice are fickle!) but 80% of the time they contribute well, throw in a Landspeeder with MM and a scout squad with 4 x Sniper rifles and a ML and your shooty bang bang is sorted and you can spend the rest of the points on killer CC Troops etc.

two dev squads, 8 man strong each, 4xML's Really is awesome.

I am moving to the Puppy dex soon though. I will probably add in some plasma cannons because I will no longer have the combat squads wielding them and they are always fun.

SW replace the signum with the split fire, right?

Deuce11:

Right. Something else to remember is that your Long Fangs have to replace their Bolt Pistol with a Heavy Weapon, rather than the option replacing a Bolter with a Heavy Weapon and leaving a Bolt Pistol available like Devastators have. It's pretty minor, but it can make a difference if they need to charge.

Deuce11 wrote:two dev squads, 8 man strong each, 4xML's Really is awesome.

I am moving to the Puppy dex soon though. I will probably add in some plasma cannons because I will no longer have the combat squads wielding them and they are always fun.

SW replace the signum with the split fire, right?

Yes. However, if you do go with puppies, keep the LF's with all ml's. 140pts for 5ml's and the ability to split fire is SO much better than a dev squad that it's not even funny. Dev squads should be kept on the shelf. At least the BA codex has addressed some of their point cost issues...

My devs last night got hit by a deepstriking landraider, killed them all, 254 point units wiped after only 6 tac marine kills. I really should have placed them better but my 5 man 4 ML squad did make its points back killing 3 termies and 4 tac marines. A lot of the use of Devs really comes down to how well you place them at deployment.

It dosen't matter how they're armed if you place your DEVs wrong they are fragged

Thanks, their support counter assault unit was killed by a 12 inch moving Vindicator shot.

Ratbarf wrote:Thanks, their support counter assault unit was killed by a 12 inch moving Vindicator shot.

Ouch...I hate when that happens...so was it your Vindicator or your opponents

Opponents, hence the 12 inch move. A fast vehicle a Vindicator should be not.

Ratbarf:

How were your Devastators killed by a Deep Striking Land Raider?

The most probable and still ballsy way I can see that happening is a LRR just burning them with POTMS

Don't the blood angels deepstrike landraiders? If not then I have to go have a word with my opponent....

If you're asking how he killed me it was a redeemer with a flamestorm that got them all in a line. They were behind sandbags and lined up rather close so as to stay behind the cover.

Yeah, Blood Angels have Land Raiders that can Deep Strike. The way you said it made it sound like the Land Raider had killed the Devastators by landing on top of them. A Land Raider Crusader landing nearby makes much more sense.

Yeah, it landed right beside them and hit them with a flamestorm. The I was somewhat jiffied about was that I didn't get a chance to kill it before poof, bye bye 4 plasma cannon squad.

I would highly suggest spreading them out a bit next time!

Though I'm kind of glad I read that, because I could see myself making the same mistake. Watch out for those Baal Predators too!

But they were spread out so that they could be in cover, which is a good thing. I don't know how the board was set up, but it would be a good idea to set them up or to move them somewhere where a Deep Striking Land Raider will not fit beside them at all.

Like on the 3rd level of a ruin. That's where I like to keep mine if I can get away with it.

If you had 2 inch dispersion he'd only get 2 or 3 even if they were all in a line...

BA can deepstrike land raiders.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:BA can deepstrike land raiders.

Yes,Yes they can, this is sick, cool, wrong, sick & cool

Well i'm now taking 3 squads of Devs in my complete army (won't be fielding all 3 in my strike forces)

2 dev squads with just ML. and one with 4 Lascannon.

Want to see which racks up more armour kills.

Just assembled and primed three more ML marines. I'll field a squad of four and see how they acquit themselves this Sunday. I think I may also try out PCs or LCs (or one of each) in my tactical squads in place of the HB/ML that I typically take as a heavy weapon.

I will also be using my new Predator (LC sponsons), and at least one TL LC Razorback.

I'm sure you will all be waiting with bated breath to hear the battle report.

Corennus wrote:Well i'm now taking 3 squads of Devs in my complete army (won't be fielding all 3 in my strike forces)

2 dev squads with just ML. and one with 4 Lascannon.

Want to see which racks up more armour kills.

Well the one with 4 LC will beat 4 ML at penetrating armor.

But the 4 ML can also do anti-infantry work with its frag rounds.

Also its 80 points cheaper.... which to me is reason enough.

That's why I chose the three squads.

One dedicated anti-tank squad and two anti light vehicle/infantry.

Frees up the tac squads to take Heavy Bolters / Plasma Cannon.

kinda OT, but im a bit of a noob an im curious, if i take 4 ML in a ten man dev squad, can i have 4 and the signum in a rank behind the 5 with bolters then combat squad and use them for some cover from assault? And if this is the case, do they count as 2 KP?

Yes to all of those.

Bear in mind though that if you shoot "through" the screening unit any non vehicles are likely to get cover saves.

You can of course move the screening unit out of the way and then "run" them back again once the ML have fired, assuming you don't mind your troops basically doing the hokey cokey.

Problem is at 230 points a squad, and with them unable to move and shoot. you have a lot of bodies stationary and taking up a good portion of your army if you are going to take more than one Dev squad.

Personally i'd take up to 3 "vanilla" Dev squads and make sure they're in cover (crater or building), and armed with long-range ML or lascannon.

Yes you run the risk of a blast template getting your squad, but with 3 squads any armour should be taken care of early in the game.

Actually Devastators can move and fire, just not with their Heavy Weapons. Unlike Long Fangs Devastators can have Bolter on the members not armed with Heavy Weapons, and Bolt Pistols on all members. Just because they can't fire their Heavy Weapons doesn't mean that they should be immobile.

If there's no point to them shooting any weapon, use running to get them into position faster. A squad in a Rhino, for example, can move 12" onto the board, dismount 2", and then run 1D6" into position, or mount up, move 12", and then fire using the Rhino's firepoints next turn (or dismount and use Bolt Pistols and Guns).

In addition, use Combat Tactics to Fall Back, automatically Rally, and then shoot Heavy Weapons. This is difficult and requires all sorts of conditions to be in place to carry it off successfully, but it means that you can get 'free' movement if you carry it off right.

Devastators can be pretty mobile.

cool. well my Dev squads are now 10 man so yeah if they do get an enemy close to them they'll now have 6 bolters and four bolt pistols to deal with.

I personally don't see the point of splitting the Dev force into combat squads. against armour multiple hits count. Yes, a combat squadded dev squad (2 ML each) can take on another target, but I'm more of the mind to make sure the initial target dies than try and get simple glancing hits.

Another question......if you fire 4 ML (using krak) against armour do you roll the "to hit" and "penetrating hit" and "damage" dice individually for each missile?

Anpu42 wrote:-Missile Launcher: [(Frag) 48” S-4 AP-6 Heavy-1, Blast / (Krak) 48” S-8 AP-3 Heavy-1] This is the Most common and versatile Heavy Weapon available to Devastators. It is a Jack of Trades, Master of None, but that for once is its strength. In Frag mode it will rip apart mass infantry positions. In Krak mode it will kill almost anything from Land Raiders to most ICs. Dump 4 of them into a Marine Squad and watch 3-4 of them die instantly.

Very good text, but missile launchers can't kill Land Raiders, unless you immobilize/weapon destroy it minimum 4 times. Thats 4x (3+/6+/5+)

Corennus wrote:cool. well my Dev squads are now 10 man so yeah if they do get an enemy close to them they'll now have 6 bolters and four bolt pistols to deal with.

I personally don't see the point of splitting the Dev force into combat squads. against armour multiple hits count. Yes, a combat squadded dev squad (2 ML each) can take on another target, but I'm more of the mind to make sure the initial target dies than try and get simple glancing hits.

Another question......if you fire 4 ML (using krak) against armour do you roll the "to hit" and "penetrating hit" and "damage" dice individually for each missile?

No you don't. As long as the models are in the same unit, with same BS and same weapons or same S, AP or special rules, you roll them all at once. Unless you really enjoy rolling one single die at the time, nobody would bother as long as it's devastators and not ork close combat... For instance, if you fire 2 las cannons and 2 multi-meltas into a unit of necrons, and all weapons are within 24", you just throw the 4 dice at once, since S9 and S8 melta wouldn't make a difference.

You would rather waste 2 missile launcher shots to make sure the tank dies? Why? If you destroy a tank with 2 missile launcheres, combat squads give you 2 more shots at a different unit. Never heard anyone complaining about that before.

4 missile launchers hitting a land raider. at very least you're going to get a glancing hit. more likely you'll get a penetrating hit and weapon destroyed/immobilised.

And the next turn 4 missiles into an immobilised land raider........dead land raider.

It's impossible for a Missile to get a penetrating hit on a Land Raider...

Corennus wrote:4 missile launchers hitting a land raider. at very least you're going to get a glancing hit. more likely you'll get a penetrating hit and weapon destroyed/immobilised.

And the next turn 4 missiles into an immobilised land raider........dead land raider.

Uhhh...

No. You can never get a penetrating hit vs a land raider with a ml. Your odds of getting a weapon destroyed or immobilized result from a ml is 3.7%.

Three point Seven percent.

Whether the land raider is immobilized or not will not increase the odds by any stretch of the imagination for four more ml's shooting into it the next turn and destroying it.

In the space marine codex, Dev's are not an effective expenditure of points, cost of models to purchase or the taking of a HS FOC selection for space marines, as Dev's, whether or not you are taking into account similar choices from other codices.

And if you do that, Dev's are an even poorer choice.

Hmmm.....ok.......

"how do you destroy landraiders son?"

"Well we normally go up to a tank and ask 'are you a land raider?' and if they say 'yes' we melta it!"

Corennus wrote:Hmmm.....ok.......

"how do you destroy landraiders son?"

"Well we normally go up to a tank and ask 'are you a land raider?' and if they say 'yes' we melta it!"

Edit after reading comprehension kicked in.

Correct. The best way to handle a raider is with melta, not ml's.

Dev's can readily handle up to av 12 armor.

But there are many other cheaper, more efficient options in the hs slot that can do that.

Corennus wrote:4 missile launchers hitting a land raider. at very least you're going to get a glancing hit. more likely you'll get a penetrating hit and weapon destroyed/immobilised.

And the next turn 4 missiles into an immobilised land raider........dead land raider.

Well you could in fact have 4 missile launchers make 4 glancing hits. Then those 4 glancing hits could cause Immobilized + Weapon Destroyed + Weapon Destroyed + Weapon Destroyed. If the Land Raider doesn't have any extra weapon upgrades, one more glancing hit causing immobilized or weapon destroyed would destroy it, unless a techmarine repairs it.

However, shooting at an immobilized Land Raider normally doesn't improve your odds of destroying it, unless you only have missile launchers, and therefore need to destroy all weapons before destroying it.

In that case i'll just have to hope that two Dev squads firing 8 missiles in total bring the damned thing down.

Might not be mega effective but as a low cost alpha strike you could get 5 devs with 2 multi meltas and a drop pod for 155 points. Or get a rhino, after all only 2 can fire from the hatch any way.

Corennus wrote:4 missile launchers hitting a land raider. at very least you're going to get a glancing hit. more likely you'll get a penetrating hit and weapon destroyed/immobilised.

And the next turn 4 missiles into an immobilised land raider........dead land raider.

How are your missile launchers rolling 7 to penetrate a Land Raider? At the very list you'll average 1 glancing hit every two turns of shooting. If you're lucky, shooting a Land Raider every single turn in a 6 turn game, you have about a 50/50 chance of immobilizing it.

MLs versus Land Raiders are stupid, and useless unless you have 20+ ala Space Wolves, and even then its largely a waste of firepower.

Does a razorback have the same # of hatches as a rhino (2)? 5-man squad w/ 2 HWs in a razorback would give you a relatively cheap little mobile firebase if they (the HW guys) could both shoot out.

A Razorback doesn't have any fire points.

@Mercer: Devastators can't shoot a MM after they move, so the Pod trick wouldn't really work as an Alpha Strike. A Dreadnought on the other hand...

A razorback has no hatches at all. That's why I said rhino 2 posts above for firing from the hatch. If not a razorback does make good support.

Whoops... sorry, missed that bit.

I would like to report that 4x missile launchers in 10 man Dev squad, and LC and PC embedded in Tac squads was a resounding success (for their part anyway).

I am a believer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So who wants to participate in an equally lengthy thread on assault marines!

... anyone?

Sure. Start a thread.

Dr. Ew wrote:I would like to report that 4x missile launchers in 10 man Dev squad, and LC and PC embedded in Tac squads was a resounding success (for their part anyway).

I am a believer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So who wants to participate in an equally lengthy thread on assault marines!

... anyone?

And for a mere 10 more points you could have snagged 2 preds w/ac/lc sponsons.

Vanilla assault marines are just bad. There are much better things to take in the codex.

Dr. Ew:

Could you tell us how that configuration worked for you? What happened that convinced you it was good?

Plasma cannons probably wiped out a lot of troops in one go. And Missile Launchers on frag.

Dr. Ew wrote:I would like to report that 4x missile launchers in 10 man Dev squad, and LC and PC embedded in Tac squads was a resounding success (for their part anyway).

I am a believer.

It's amazing what happens when you go against internet consensus and actually use a unit, isn't it?

Devastators, go!

Don't run them, they're too expensive and there are better options.

I think that the "too expensive" and "better options" have been debunked. Either provide some justification for us to share that opinion, and better justification than what's been provided so far, or don't bother sharing your ignorance. This is a discussion forum; discuss.

I saw an interesting way to use them.
I was playing my Wolves vs Marrines and my Opponent put a Combat squad in front of them. This gave the Devs a "Cover Saves".
The next time I pull out my Marines, Combat Squad the two Plasma Cannons Devs. and place each other's caombat Squads in front of the others.
I don't see this as a serious tactic, but I though i would share it.

It's better if you can just deploy the whole squad in cover, as you want the extra guys in the unit to soak up wounds. The only reason I have found to take a full squad aside from wounds is for the Ability to combat squad and cover more area/get the side armour more easily.

He basicaly used them to absorb a Greay Hunters Pack for one turn.
We also did not have a lot of cover this time.

I use them to kill everything in my path (Even my allies by "accidently" firing a plasma cannon at their direction.)
I use the devastors to ensure my flanks are protected.

Thats probably the problem right there, I play with a large amount of cover on the board, it makes my devastators both more useful, as they are survivable, but it also hurts for enemy cover saves.

Moving a screening unit out of the way of a more important unit, and then running back in front after the important unit has done its shooting is a pretty basic tactic, and it's important for more reasons than simple cover saves: many armies depend on locking up your shooting units with charges, and getting their points-worth via charges.

This tactic of screening units makes Combat Squads even better since it prevents consolidating units from following up behind Space Marine units that are Falling Back and preventing the automatic Rally in the Space Marine turn. A unit of Orks or Blood Angels or Berzerkers crashes into the stalwart Bolter-armed Marines of Devastator Combat Squad Biggus and bludgeons them senseless. If Biggus are wiped out, then the attackers are left sitting in front of the Heavy Weapons of Devastator Combat Squad Dickus. If Biggus is not wiped out, their Fall Back is covered by Dickus, and the attackers are left sitting in front of the Heavy Weapons of Dickus.

A similar game of leapfrog can be played using the halves of a Tactical Squad, luring enemy shock units into close range for template weapons, short ranged Melta shots, and Bolters. There's no wonder that the Space Wolves and Blood Angels don't get Combat Tactics: those Chapters are notoriously bad a leap-frog.

True Cover makes all of the Diferince. We go from 4-5 larger terrein to Maximum LOS of about 18".
No Terain makes DEVs very nasty. but fragile and in the tight stuff even more nasty in the 10 man mode with all of the Bolt Guns.

I find they don't work as well in lots of cover scenarios unless they can get into a high ruin or tower or something of the like. If you know that there is lots of cover than you don't have to bother with a transport for them, and it helps when that battlecannon decides you're worth a turn of shooting (which you are if you're only a 5 man squad).

imweasel wrote:

Dr. Ew wrote:I would like to report that 4x missile launchers in 10 man Dev squad, and LC and PC embedded in Tac squads was a resounding success (for their part anyway).

I am a believer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So who wants to participate in an equally lengthy thread on assault marines!

... anyone?

And for a mere 10 more points you could have snagged 2 preds w/ac/lc sponsons.

Vanilla assault marines are just bad. There are much better things to take in the codex.

I actually had one pred in that configuration as well. I think the devs did a better job of absorbing the Tau opponent's fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:Dr. Ew:

Could you tell us how that configuration worked for you? What happened that convinced you it was good?

I was able to alternate between using frag and hammer the Tau opponents Kroot, forcing them to go to ground, where they remained for much of the game, and lobbing krak missiles at his Hammerheads. Although more effective against the Kroot, the Devs became the target of choice for his railguns, and absorbed a number of blasts, surviving in the open until turn six. Meanwhile my Pred covered two advancing Rhinos and one Razorback (and 25 tac marines) past the center of the table, where they were finally immobilized. The LC and PC I had embedded in the two ten man tac squads proved effective against battle suits and Hammerheads once they were dismounted.

In the end I lost, five kill points to eight, primarily because of my poor use of elites and HQ, and my inexperience playing against Tau (this was my first time). The Devs played their role perfectly, and the heavy weapons embedded in my tac squads complimented them well. I think that this is a versatile configuration that would be effective in a number of situations.

I'd like to use devastators, I really would, but unfortunately the plasma cannon seems about 5 points too high and the lascannon 10, and they also use up precious Heavy slots for my precious tanks.

That said, I'd probably run them 10 man with 4 MLs to add some ranged anti-tank/transport to my army, or some decent anti-horde.

Devastators need cover period. Get them into a building , but never ever into a crater! Blast weapons make short work of marines in craters!

As for loadout I think it's all down to personal preference.

Sometime i'm going to do a Dev squad with just Heavy Bolters.

Why? Cause I like it.

I agree with the people saying vanilla marines pay too much for their hvy weapons in devestator squads. Long Fangs should be the model of how devestators squads should be price wise.

Price aside, I do field them in vanilla marines if I'am playing with combat tactics ( such a great ability ). Usually its 2 Missle,1 Hvy Plas and 1 Las. Cannon and then combat squad them. Main reason to combat squad them is if they get assaulted you offer them a small squad rather then a 10 man. The other key as I have seen posted is to get them in a good firing position in cover. With cover, I find my devestators far more resillient then most vehicles. If they get assaulted, the last man to remove is the hvy plas as if I can get the fallback w/o getting locked back in, that assaulting unit could be wiped by the shot in my turn. Also field them away from objective but overlooking them, thus forcing any assaulting units ( hopefully scoring ) to go way out of their way to get to them and more then likely preventing them from scoring with that unit.


Combat squading is key. If you look at the game as a 5 turn game ( not always but most of the time ) you can figure that it will be two or three turns till they get hit in CC. Losing only a 5 man squad is very acceptable vs losing a 10 man. That also means the squad that killed your devestator squad only has 2 more turns of actions before the game is over. Tactical squads ( broken into combat squads ) are great for tieing up the enemy for a turn thus allowing an extra turn for your devestators. I have yet to have all 6 devestator squads wiped out in a game ( combat squaded from 3 10 mans ) and with the current meta being mech, the foot slogging armies do quite well as most people gear heavily for mech.

Wow that's a lot of points in devs!

240 points per squad, x 3 = 720 points!!!

How many points in your army??

That sounds about right as I dont have army builder on this computer to check or my codex handy atm and yes thats in a 2k list. In my vanilla marine army I don't have any serious point sinks IE Deathstar units but I do have a ton of marines. Those devestators are like ticks, they find the high ground with cover and dig in ( usually during deployment ). As to the 240 points per unit, I like to look at them as 120 points per combat squad

While LRs, I wont lie can be tough to kill. Toss them a little 5 man tactical squad and 9/10 times the contents of the LR jump out to kick the crap out of them and after my next round of shooting there isnt much left, if anything, that jumps back in the LR. Even TH/ SS Terminators fall if you force them to make enough saves. Landspeeders tho are usually on the hunt for LR so I can direct my devastators towards juicer targets.

While I don't win every game nor is this a magic list, it does how ever always gives me more then a fair chance to win and thats even against some of the tournament calibur list such as IG, SW etc. Combat tactics is just so good and so many times I note most vanilla marines dont quite understand how to use it nor do they know how ATSKNF rule works, at least when I play or watch them. They either don't volunteer to break in CC if they lose or they dont auto rally on their turn ( assuming no enemies in 6 inches ) and realize they can move normally or fire heavy weapons the turn they rally. Most vanilla marines are obsessed with running Vulcan / Pedro / Lysander with high point units and charging forth.

Any ways I have rambled for to long as its 5am and I need some sleep.

Devastators:

-4 Heavy weapons is better than most vehicles
-Different weapons
-Can combat squad
-Can always shoot unless pinned or in close combat
-Expensive

Predators/Vindicators:

-Less heavy weapons
-Less variations of weapons
-Can escape close combat if it survives
-Shaken or stunned is very bad, can die from one lucky shot, weak against meltas and so forth
-Cheaper

If dev's scored, they could somehow justify their exorbitant cost.

Preds can take lc's or hb's and come with ac's and are a good cost efficient buy compared to dev's.

I think the tau player that dr. ew played also must not have played to many times with his own tau army.

Firing blasts from his hammerheads at the dev's? What in the world was the tau player thinking?

imweasel wrote:Firing blasts from his hammerheads at the dev's? What in the world was the tau player thinking?

Maybe they were in cover, bunched up?

Making the opponent take 5-6 3+ Armor savers has much better killing potential than one 4+ Cover Save.

They probably were, or he had already killed the rest of the guys tanks and just needed something to shoot. Those devs could have possibly hurt his tanks quite a bit.

Monster Rain wrote:

imweasel wrote:Firing blasts from his hammerheads at the dev's? What in the world was the tau player thinking?

Maybe they were in cover, bunched up?

Making the opponent take 5-6 3+ Armor savers has much better killing potential than one 4+ Cover Save.

I think that would have been just fine for the tau player after destroying his opponent's vehicles first and not to allow them to get 'past midfield'.

This battle in no way justifies dev squads in the slightest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ratbarf wrote:They probably were, or he had already killed the rest of the guys tanks and just needed something to shoot. Those devs could have possibly hurt his tanks quite a bit.

ML's are not the optimum weapon choice to handle av13 armor.

imweasel wrote:ML's are not the optimum weapon choice to handle av13 armor.

If one is a list-tailoring loser, this would be a consideration.

If you're making an all-comers list, 4 missile launchers will usually help.

I thought that melta had the job of making high AV targets cry.

Not if a competent general keeps his high AV models outside of 12 inches of the "can't move and shoot" Devastators.

I was not referring to infantry-based multi-meltas, which IMHO suck b/c of its heavy profile.

I meant multi-meltas based on attack bikes, LS, dreads, anything except infantry.

well hopefully they will be trying to stay away/place their 13 AV armour at the bikes running melta, allowing your ML to get a side strike.

Devs are useful if expensive, I know that anecdotes are not well recieved but a 5 man 4 Lascannon Dev squad just took down 2 Land Raider Redeemers and three of the Termies that fell out of them in the game I just finished.

paperweights mostly. thats how i use em. Sustained fire dice and Overwatch made the Dakka fun. but when i did use em, all HB all the time.

NOW in 2k point games i use em as a rope-a-dope distraction. They work really well for that. Putting them on the field seems to inspire my enemies to throw tactics into the wind. Ignore the landraider full of pain to go after the 200 points of heavy weapons. Makes perfect sense. Plus when you field them you know where the drop pods are gonna drop off the Dreads.

Monster Rain wrote:

imweasel wrote:ML's are not the optimum weapon choice to handle av13 armor.

If one is a list-tailoring loser, this would be a consideration.

If you're making an all-comers list, 4 missile launchers will usually help.

Exactly. Which is why the dev's should not have been a priority target for the hammer heads.

Why in the world would you be shooting sub munitions at a dev squad with 6 ablative wounds when there are plenty of other higher priority targets for the tau player?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ratbarf wrote:well hopefully they will be trying to stay away/place their 13 AV armour at the bikes running melta, allowing your ML to get a side strike.

Devs are useful if expensive, I know that anecdotes are not well recieved but a 5 man 4 Lascannon Dev squad just took down 2 Land Raider Redeemers and three of the Termies that fell out of them in the game I just finished.

Once again, luck does not dictate on whether a unit is useful or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quientin wrote:paperweights mostly. thats how i use em. Sustained fire dice and Overwatch made the Dakka fun. but when i did use em, all HB all the time.

NOW in 2k point games i use em as a rope-a-dope distraction. They work really well for that. Putting them on the field seems to inspire my enemies to throw tactics into the wind. Ignore the landraider full of pain to go after the 200 points of heavy weapons. Makes perfect sense. Plus when you field them you know where the drop pods are gonna drop off the Dreads.

Also, opponent's playing badly doesn't justify lists or unit choices.

Also, opponent's playing badly doesn't justify lists or unit choices.

This one isn't necesarily true, some units simply inspire retardedness in opponents. A 4 Lascannon Dev Squad with 6 ablatives in ruins while espenive will cause heavy vehicle players to make some stupid choices on occasion, especially if they have had bad results against Lascannons in the past. Though the same can be said for any semi powerful unit. That guy whose redeemer's I torched? The next time we play he will probably attempt to kill those Lascannons asap, regardless of whether or not there will be a better or more dangerous target on the field for his heavy fire.

I have a a 5 man squad that just sits in a ruin with 4x missile launchers they are cheap for devs and can deal out the hurt.

This one isn't necesarily true, some units simply inspire retardedness in opponents. A 4 Lascannon Dev Squad with 6 ablatives in ruins while espenive will cause heavy vehicle players to make some stupid choices on occasion, especially if they have had bad results against Lascannons in the past. Though the same can be said for any semi powerful unit. That guy whose redeemer's I torched? The next time we play he will probably attempt to kill those Lascannons asap, regardless of whether or not there will be a better or more dangerous target on the field for his heavy fire.

You reinforcing my argument doesn't help yours.

Once again, you would probably beat your opponent regardless and doesn't validate your choice of a very expensive HS choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HAHA before you posted this did you stop to think what the DEV squad does when its ignored?Also, since when is using juicy pain units as distractions a bad thing?

Waste time trying to kill it! they serve their purpose! Ignore em, I shoot em and they serve another purpose. Avoid them and they have drastically diminished your movement possibilities... thus serving yet another purpose.

The problem people have with dev squads is failure to adapt. something does not have to kill its points back to serve a purpose especially if 2 dreads in drop pods, a land speeder, and an attack bike take two turns to kill them. If you are adapting to your opponents reactions to your troops that is just good sense.

Once again, your opponents playing badly doesn't justify it's use.

If you are playing vs an opponent that can face your dev squad with av13, why in the world would I think it's going to cause me 'juicy pain'? A smart/good opponent wouldn't. You play folks who 'take the bait' and are not prioritizing targets properly.

As the tau player listed in an example earlier in this thread, I would consider mobile, mechanized marines a far more 'juicy pain unit' than a dev squad. Certainly more of a priority for my hammer heads to shoot at rather than wasting my time shooting at a single dev squad that isn't a more serious threat to me than the mech'ed marines bearing down on my army.

There are other and better HS choices to take over dev's.

To address questions from a few of the above comments:

The Devs were in cover, and because of the terrain setup, had a better field of view than my Predator or LC Razorback during the first turn or so. They and my sniper scouts were able to start dishing out damage in the first turn, and as a result made attractive targets of themselves. The vehicles, and my two Dreadnoughts, did take fire from the start of the game as well, they just managed to survive until they made it to the center of the table.

Part of my opponents plan of attack was to move his Kroot up as quickly as possible, and keep my marines from assaulting, which seems like a pretty sound tactic considering the Tau lack of fortitude in close combat. The only problem was that my Dev squads frag missiles pinned them (went to ground) in place, so he was trying to eliminate that threat before my assault, and even tac marines could make it across the board.

Also, our game club does not tailor lists. We decide on point values ahead of time, and try to make the best general list that we can. Personally, I think its more interesting to play with an all purpose army, designed to do the best they can against whatever opponent they might face.

Dr. Ew wrote:To address questions from a few of the above comments:

The Devs were in cover, and because of the terrain setup, had a better field of view than my Predator or LC Razorback during the first turn or so. They and my sniper scouts were able to start dishing out damage in the first turn, and as a result made attractive targets of themselves. The vehicles, and my two Dreadnoughts, did take fire from the start of the game as well, they just managed to survive until they made it to the center of the table.

Part of my opponents plan of attack was to move his Kroot up as quickly as possible, and keep my marines from assaulting, which seems like a pretty sound tactic considering the Tau lack of fortitude in close combat. The only problem was that my Dev squads frag missiles pinned them (went to ground) in place, so he was trying to eliminate that threat before my assault, and even tac marines could make it across the board.

Also, our game club does not tailor lists. We decide on point values ahead of time, and try to make the best general list that we can. Personally, I think its more interesting to play with an all purpose army, designed to do the best they can against whatever opponent they might face.

Your opponent should have simply sliced and dices your transports to limit their mobility.

The tau player moved his kroot out of cover? Ummm...ok. So his response is to go to ground while he is trying to use them to stop your marines from assaulting? Ummm...ok.

Scout snipers 'dishing out damage? Hit on a 4+ and wound on a 4+? Even if you had 10 snipers that's only 2.5 wounds per turn.

Now there are a lot of things that could change how one would play. But one of the last things a tau player should do is fire submunitions at the dev squad until the vehicle threats are dealt with.

Nothing you have posted has stated the tau player knew what he was doing.

Sooo just because some people are routed, or charge it, and even when thats not the case they still serve other purposes like... oh i dunno shooting, theyer still worthless because some people can utilize tactics? I see your argument.

however unless you have a unit that makes Devs magically disappear or are immune to heavy weapons fire they still serve some purpose.

I would never argue that there are better HS choices in every dex. however this is a matter of taste for every one else here and you make them sound like they are 100% worthless. I offered my distraction idea as something other players might try to be constructive. you are suggesting they get a real HS choice and this is also constructive. But let me ask you this though, If you were magically stuck with a 10 man DEV squad how would you make the best of them. some of us dont want to admit that all that expensive pewter became useless after 2nd ed died

I have money that imweasel will follow his namesake and give some weak excuse to avoid answering that question, most likely something along the lines of "I wouldn't get stuck with them!" or something similarly inspired.

imweasel wrote:
Your opponent should have simply sliced and dices your transports to limit their mobility.

As I said my opponent tried to "slice and dices" my vehicles. They survived.

imweasel wrote:
Scout snipers 'dishing out damage? Hit on a 4+ and wound on a 4+? Even if you had 10 snipers that's only 2.5 wounds per turn.

It only takes one wound to pin.

...

You seem to be trolling imweasel. You weren't there, you've only read the barest description of what went on, and you spout off in an aggressively condescending tone, all of which combine to make your opinion less than meaningless. Save your exhortations for someone who cares.

Now if you'll excuse me, the adults have to continue their nice conversation. You can go stand in the corner by yourself like the petulant child you clearly are, Ummm...ok?

@DR Ew:
(Claps)...Well said Brother, well said.

Dr. Ew wrote:

imweasel wrote:
Your opponent should have simply sliced and dices your transports to limit their mobility.

As I said my opponent tried to "slice and dices" my vehicles. They survived.

imweasel wrote:
Scout snipers 'dishing out damage? Hit on a 4+ and wound on a 4+? Even if you had 10 snipers that's only 2.5 wounds per turn.

It only takes one wound to pin.

...

You seem to be trolling imweasel. You weren't there, you've only read the barest description of what went on, and you spout off in an aggressively condescending tone, all of which combine to make your opinion less than meaningless. Save your exhortations for someone who cares.

Now if you'll excuse me, the adults have to continue their nice conversation. You can go stand in the corner by yourself like the petulant child you clearly are, Ummm...ok?

No troll here. Just trying to give folks some counter information to someone stating that devs are good because they played an opponent that made plenty of mistakes and/or got lucky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Quientin wrote:Sooo just because some people are routed, or charge it, and even when thats not the case they still serve other purposes like... oh i dunno shooting, theyer still worthless because some people can utilize tactics? I see your argument.

however unless you have a unit that makes Devs magically disappear or are immune to heavy weapons fire they still serve some purpose.

I would never argue that there are better HS choices in every dex. however this is a matter of taste for every one else here and you make them sound like they are 100% worthless. I offered my distraction idea as something other players might try to be constructive. you are suggesting they get a real HS choice and this is also constructive. But let me ask you this though, If you were magically stuck with a 10 man DEV squad how would you make the best of them. some of us dont want to admit that all that expensive pewter became useless after 2nd ed died

Devs are not '100% worthless'. There are just better and more cost effective units to take in the the space marine dex, especially over a 10 man dev squad.

I would never be stuck with a 10man dev squad as I would never take one. Ever. Under any circumstances.

However, if I had to take a dev squad, it would be a 5 man squad with either 4ml's or possibly 3ml's and a lc.

If dev's were scoring, then they would be worth taking. 150pts for 4 ml's that are scoring is a good buy. With the spam of av13 that is/will be coming, dev's are either going to get REALLY expensive or they are going to become even 'more worthless'.

imweasel wrote:I would never be stuck with a 10man dev squad as I would never take one. Ever. Under any circumstances.

Now the question is, did I call it, or did I cause it?

Nurglitch wrote:

imweasel wrote:I would never be stuck with a 10man dev squad as I would never take one. Ever. Under any circumstances.

Now the question is, did I call it, or did I cause it?

Or both?

Dude that was awesome.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Maybe people could just let a certain poster know that his opinion of Devastators is duly noted so that he can stop trying to make everyone agree with him.

Only reason i'm taking 10 man dev squads in my army is I have no vehicles yet.....

Need to do more rhinos or razorbacks for my tac squads first.

Anpu42 wrote:I saw an interesting way to use them.
I was playing my Wolves vs Marrines and my Opponent put a Combat squad in front of them. This gave the Devs a "Cover Saves".
The next time I pull out my Marines, Combat Squad the two Plasma Cannons Devs. and place each other's caombat Squads in front of the others.
I don't see this as a serious tactic, but I though i would share it.

But now that the combat squad is a separate unit altogether from the Dev squad, wouldn't the targets be granted cover saves from the Devs' onslaught because the Devs are firing through friendly units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nurglitch wrote:Actually Devastators can move and fire, just not with their Heavy Weapons. Unlike Long Fangs Devastators can have Bolter on the members not armed with Heavy Weapons, and Bolt Pistols on all members. Just because they can't fire their Heavy Weapons doesn't mean that they should be immobile.

If there's no point to them shooting any weapon, use running to get them into position faster. A squad in a Rhino, for example, can move 12" onto the board, dismount 2", and then run 1D6" into position, or mount up, move 12", and then fire using the Rhino's firepoints next turn (or dismount and use Bolt Pistols and Guns).

In addition, use Combat Tactics to Fall Back, automatically Rally, and then shoot Heavy Weapons. This is difficult and requires all sorts of conditions to be in place to carry it off successfully, but it means that you can get 'free' movement if you carry it off right.

Devastators can be pretty mobile.

@Nurglitch

I read this submission, and then I read it again. I can't follow the logic that Devs are mobile.

First, you are saying they are still potent on the move because of their bolters. Okay I get that. Not the best use of an expensive unit but sometimes you have to make lemonade out of lemons and Devs can do this over Long Fangs. Great point.

But the second point I still don't follow. I don't consider moving into position with a transport in turn one "mobile" because nearly every unit in the game can do this. It simply does not seem like an advantage. If I wanted to move my Devs mid game using a transport then I have to give up two whole turns of shooting to do so (no matter how you slice it embarking and disembarking must occur in two separate player turns, unless your opponent opens the can for you, and therefore movement in your own player turn prohibits firing heavy weapons).

So to conclude on your ultimate point, that Devs are mobile, I cannot agree. If "Devs are mobile" was not your argument, then it comes down to why pay for Devs if you do not expect to use their heavy weapons nearly every turn?

Deuce11:

You didn't understand my conclusion. I said that "Devastators can be pretty mobile", not that Devastators are mobile. Clearly if Devastators are mobile then they can move and fire their Heavy Weapons.

My conclusion was that they can be mobile, with the implicit corollary that just having them camp and shoot isn't the best use of them. That brings me to the question of why pay for Devastators is they're not going to camp and shoot every turn.

The answer to that can be seen in the capabilities of Devastators with Combat Tactics as contrasted with the capabilities of tanks such as the Predator. Being mobile, that is being able to move and fire, allows Predators to not only fire from more advantageous positions, but to affect the movement of enemy units (and friendly units to a degree). Likewise a unit of Devastators with Combat Tactics, like a Predator, can forgo shooting in order to gain a better position (by moving and then running) or move slowly with weaker fire (by moving and shooting bolt weapons), or by engaging the enemy directly (tank shock/assault), or by falling back away from the enemy (combat speed, etc).

Something to remember is that if you can arrange it so that the Devastators Rally after a Fall Back move, they can keep up that Heavy Weapon fire even as they move.

These days I'm using my Devastators as front-line units, getting them as close to the enemy as possible and screening my other units, particularly the actual Troops, because Combat Tactics back-stopped by a unit of Tacticals (2" behind a unit of Devastators so that enemy consolidation moves don't prevent automatic Rallying) can Fall Back and maintain a selection of targets for even short-ranged weapons like Multi-Meltas.

And, of course, if they have to start in reserve, then the turn that they come on requires them to move, and maybe run, into position anyways.

Don't get me wrong, camping out at the top of a building or ruin is great, but if you're going to treat Devastators like Space Marine-shaped turrets, then you're wasting them. I think that's why Blood Angel Devastators and Long Fangs are so cheap, because without Combat Tactics that's all they can do.

Nurglitch wrote:Deuce11:

You didn't understand my conclusion. I said that "Devastators can be pretty mobile", not that Devastators are mobile. Clearly if Devastators are mobile then they can move and fire their Heavy Weapons.

My conclusion was that they can be mobile, with the implicit corollary that just having them camp and shoot isn't the best use of them. That brings me to the question of why pay for Devastators is they're not going to camp and shoot every turn.

The answer to that can be seen in the capabilities of Devastators with Combat Tactics as contrasted with the capabilities of tanks such as the Predator. Being mobile, that is being able to move and fire, allows Predators to not only fire from more advantageous positions, but to affect the movement of enemy units (and friendly units to a degree). Likewise a unit of Devastators with Combat Tactics, like a Predator, can forgo shooting in order to gain a better position (by moving and then running) or move slowly with weaker fire (by moving and shooting bolt weapons), or by engaging the enemy directly (tank shock/assault), or by falling back away from the enemy (combat speed, etc).

Something to remember is that if you can arrange it so that the Devastators Rally after a Fall Back move, they can keep up that Heavy Weapon fire even as they move.

These days I'm using my Devastators as front-line units, getting them as close to the enemy as possible and screening my other units, particularly the actual Troops, because Combat Tactics back-stopped by a unit of Tacticals (2" behind a unit of Devastators so that enemy consolidation moves don't prevent automatic Rallying) can Fall Back and maintain a selection of targets for even short-ranged weapons like Multi-Meltas.

And, of course, if they have to start in reserve, then the turn that they come on requires them to move, and maybe run, into position anyways.

Don't get me wrong, camping out at the top of a building or ruin is great, but if you're going to treat Devastators like Space Marine-shaped turrets, then you're wasting them. I think that's why Blood Angel Devastators and Long Fangs are so cheap, because without Combat Tactics that's all they can do.

So you put your devastators up front so they can possibly get bogged down in close combat, and call that mobility? Over long fang's because they don't have combat tactics?

Wow.

Also, don't think that your tac squad can keep your devs from failing to auto rally. They have to move around them since they can't move through them. Of course, that also means a consolidating unit also has to do the same, but it may not prevent the auto rally.

imweasel:

I don't think it was entirely necessary to reiterate my rather long post to preface your comments...

But yes, if you're going to take one point out of five, and ignore the other four, and then declare that they'll somehow get bogged down in combat, then yes it doesn't look like Devastators are mobile.

Of course, you ignored the facts that they can also (1) move and run, (2) move and shoot at partial effect, (3) not move and shoot at full effect, (4) move, shoot, and assault. Being able to screen, Fall Back, Rally, and shoot at full effect is simply (5).

The question of (5) is whether the unit will get bogged down in combat. Sure, if they happen to consistently win the combat yet fail to destroy their opponents through No Retreat! and Sweeping Advances, then they might be bogged down. Perhaps you can provide examples of the sort of opposition that would permit such a scenario to occur?

Because otherwise what happens is a couple of Devastators buy it, and either Combat Squads gets them out of danger, or take No Retreat saves and lock the unit assaulting them in combat. The following turn either both the Tactical Squad and the Devastator Squad can open fire on the unit that the Devastators disengaged from, or the Tactical Squad (personally I prefer a Dreadnought for this, more on this slightly later) can charge into the locked unit.

In the following combat either the enemy is beaten by the combined Tactical and Devastator units, or it beats them. Depending on whether the Tactical or Devastator unit is more valuable, one stays and locks the enemy in combat while the other uses Combat Tactics to walk out of combat (no Sweeping Advance for units locked in combat). This is why I prefer Dreadnoughts for the counter-assault role, because not only are they immune to Sweeping Advance, they are functionally Fearless and will lock an enemy unit down so that a Combat Tactics enable unit can exit the combat without worrying about failing a Sweeping Advance roll.

The fact is that if you space your back-stop unit correctly, that is with a 2" space in between its models, then the Devastators can move through the gaps and the enemy cannot because even the smallest base is 25mm across or about 1", meaning they cannot move through the 2" space left between the Tactical Marines. There is no prohibition against moving within 1" of friend models.

Because the line of Tactical Marines was 2" behind the line of Devastator Marines, the Devastator Marines only have to roll 8+ to guarantee that they're in auto-rally range

Of course, that's if your opponent goes for a front assault, rather than attacking a flank and forcing the Fall Back corridor to go at an acute angle to the combat rather than directy away, but the flank of such a 'thin red line' is where I put a Dreadnought for the reasons detailed above.

Something to remember is that when you buy a full unit of Devastators, you don't have to keep them as a single 10 man unit, and you don't have to split them into combat squads with two Heavy Weapons each. You can split them into one combat squad with four Heavy Weapons, and one combat squad with Bolters.

The Bolter Combat Squad, as discussed in this thread previously, can then be used to screen the Heavy Weapon squad. Personally I think a 3:1 distribution of Heavy Weapons to the combat squads is better since it gives the screening unit a Heavy Weapon and the Heavy Weapon Combat Squad a spare body.

Never thought about that last point Nuglitch, I think I'm going to try this out next game, the only thing I can find wrong with it is if both dev and combat squad get hit by a multiple assault, as that could happen if they outnumber you and are within range of your second squad.

Ratbarf:

I forget who mentioned it in the thread originally, but credit should go to them. Something you might consider is simply closing ranks to prevent that from happening, so that the charging models can't move through the gaps they could at 2" wide.

Something worth remembering is to keep the distance <3" between the screened and screeners so that Jump Infantry can't bypass the screening unit and lay up for a charge.

Also, a Multi-Melta in the screening unit deters Tank Shock. An umbrella in the screened unit helps maintain dignity in the advent of a Deff Rolla...

Please invest 250 points into a heavy weapon squad and feel free to capitalize on its mobility. You have bolt pistols, so the shooting loss is minimal.

Please view 10 unscoring Tactical Marines with expensive heavy weapon options as a darn good buy.

Please crush your mobility with a 250 point, immobile screening unit, and never mind that in every other army, the fire support units are typically the ones that get screened, not provide it. You have combat tactics so they can just escape from combat and shoot anyways.

Please also field massive infantry-heavy armies on your table edge; 5th ed has proven that this is a time-tested and viable build. IG can do it, so can you.

Please ignore the massively points-efficient AC/HB and AC/Las Predator. 50% more heavy weapons is a marginal upgrade versus combat squadding. Your opponent's Devastators will probably blow it up anyways since you can't get through the 6 ablative wounds.

Please make your 250 point mobile/screening unit a 285 point mobile/screening unit by giving it a transport. Dawn of War happens 1/3 of all games, and spending even more points to make a unit functional is rewarded by the 40k gameset.

Please do all of these things, because it will reward you as a hobbyist by giving you a cool-looking unit that nobody ever takes and granting you a nice handicap to overcome when competing against other good players. Ignore all of the anecdotal data, because every unit can be okay, sometimes.

@nurglitch,

The reason I didn't touch your other points?

Those points are not entirely unique to dev squads other than combat tactics.

Every other heavy weapon squad can move and run for mobility. Yes, HW devs have bolt pistols. Four of them as a matter of fact. That is absolutely nothing to write home about.

Are you forgetting that even though you still choose to auto fail your morale test for losing combat, you still have to win the initiative roll, which is roughly 2 to 3 against that happening, assuming that everyone is I4. You then state that you have to roll at least average to above average to succeed in getting far enough away to be able to auto rally.

That's mobility? That's even worth addressing? That's even worth bringing up as a 'viable' reason for taking dev squads? Let along 10 man squads? Really?

Certainly you can position tacticals so they can be screened with heavy weapon units, turning your tacticals into essentially an immobile and out of transport backstop. That's a great way to use tactical squads. Really.

Even with a 10 man dev squad, assuming you use the other half of the dev squad to perform the 'backstop' role, is that justification for taking a less than cost effective unit and making it even less cost effective? Just to get a 'backstop' that doesn't even score?

Do you really need that kind of 'mobility' with 48" range weapons for that cost?

imweasel:

I thought I had addressed the issue of the Sweeping Advance. In fact I had thought I'd gone over it in detail, though apparently I was not pedantic enough.

Rolling 8+ on 2D6 is rolling above average, but it's not that bad, and in fact considerably more likely than what you'd need to roll if the enemy unit was free to consolidate D6" closer to the Space Marine unit that was Falling Back. For that you'd need 11+ on average, the likelihood of doing so being 0.09 as opposed to just 0.48.

Yeah, 0.48 on top of the various likelihoods of escaping a Sweeping Advance isn't great, but it's considerably greater than 0, which is what Blood Angel Devastators, Lootas, Long Fangs, and every other Heavy Weapons squad out there has. As you rightly point out elsewhere in the thread, the worth of a unit is relative to the other options available to a player.

Of course, as I pointed out, if you're still worried about getting caught in a Sweeping Advance, then you should use another unit to extricate your Devastators from the combat, because a unit that is locked in combat cannot make a Sweeping Advance.

In addition, and I should have covered it as a (6), but Combat Tactics allows the unit to fail all Morale checks, and not just the ones forced by losing in close combat. They can choose to Fall Back automatically from 25% casualties, or from Tank Shock, neither of which has the unit Falling Back worry about Sweeping Advances. One could even, given the opportunity, deny an assault by falling back with the screening unit of Devastators...

Those (1-6) points are, as I have claimed, reasons to believe Devastators can be mobile. Am I claiming that capacity for mobility is the only reason to take Devastators? No. Am I claiming that to be mobility, rather than a particular capacity for mobility that units like Blood Angels Devastators and Long Fangs lack? No. Did I even suggest that the Devastators screening the Tactical Marines were going to be immobile? No again.

However, I did indeed imply that both units would be dismounted from transports. If you believe transports are magic boxes which render infantry invulnerable from attack by being themselves invulnerable, then I don't know what to say. Given the current state of the meta-game where disproportionate resources are often thrown into disabling or destroying vehicles, one must occasionally plan for those vanishingly rare times when infantry has been dismounted.

Now, I am claiming that such capacity for mobility affects how you should use Devastators, that being the topic of the thread don'tcha know.

Knowing how to use Devastators is an important step to developing a notion of whether they maximize the effectiveness and efficiency of an army. Knowing that capacity for mobility exists gives the player some insight into how their other capacities are defined, and thus how they are maximized. Do you really need "that kind of 'mobility' with 48" range weapons for that cost?" It could indeed be the case.

Are Devastators always and absolutely a cost effective unit? No, are you fething stupid? No unit is always and absolutely a cost effective unit. Like all units, Devastators are cost effective depending on your strategy, that is the mix of synergy, flexibility, and redundancy that your army brings to the table to maximize your chance of winning a game.

Now, given the capabilities that we have reviewed in this thread, which you apparently haven't bothered to read since your involvement in this thread has been limited to sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to discuss those capabilities in a thread about using Devastators, then you might have a notion of when Devastators are cost effective, and that notion might even resemble the truth of the matter.

But then this is a Tactics thread, and it takes as its premise that you are taking Devastators. If you want to discuss why people should never take Devastators, I'm sure you could start a thread in the Army List forum. No doubt Dakka Dakka could profit by your insight lest they accidentally come to find success and enjoyment with their Devastators.

Nurglitch wrote:These days I'm using my Devastators as front-line units ... Don't get me wrong, camping out at the top of a building or ruin is great, but if you're going to treat Devastators like Space Marine-shaped turrets, then you're wasting them. I think that's why Blood Angel Devastators and Long Fangs are so cheap, because without Combat Tactics that's all they can do.

Interestingly, this is how I always attempt to deploy my devs (and my sniper scouts for that matter). There is a psychological element to it, certainly; I know I only have so many turns, so I try and put them in the most propitious spot I can find, as early as possible, and then have them fire as many times as possible.

I may have to change my world view.

This thread, and some of the postings that have populated it have made me realize that its time I started thinking about units as more than points, and potential damage, and instead as little "space marine-shaped symbols" (thanks to Nurglitch for inspiring that one) that can affect the human being who operates the opposing sides little, well-painted symbols. If everyone expects a certain unit to behave in a certain way, it may behoove me to surprise them in whatever way I can. Of course it may not surprise them at all, and I may lose my whole squad in one turn, but it never hurts to try something new.

Plus I'm unlikely to ever face an opponent with the tactical acumen of imweasel (bordering on omniscience!); I should be able to get away with using such an obviously inferior unit against their likely deficient wargaming skills.

Speaking of dealing with the omniscient opponent, that fabled "good player" against whom tactics are useless, here is a good link. You don't want to scare your opponent as mislead them into making a bad choice that looked good.

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of dealing with the omniscient opponent, that fabled "good player" against whom tactics are useless, here is a good link. You don't want to scare your opponent as mislead them into making a bad choice that looked good.

Thanks for the link.

No1 is going to comment on Sourclaims' sarcasm?!

Fine; I will...

Hysterical!

GO FOR STERNGUARD!!!!

CHEAPER PONTS FOR TWO LASCANNONS AND YOUR GETTING TROOPS WITH THE CAPABILITY TO SHOOT AT ANYTHING THAT GETS NEAR TO YOUR PRECIOS HEAVY WEPONS (Eg: Trigon, Assult marines, etc.)

Perfect for tankhunting

@Madman49: I've been thinking about trying support Sternguards out as well, although they are a bit expensive to use the non-heavies as ablative wounds. Then again, their special ammo would make them very effective against anyone who got close enough... not sure if the cost is worth it in general though; I'll have to do the math later.

If you're just doing it for the Lascannons then, were x = 5, then

5x Sternguard = 25x
2x Lascannons = 8x
Total: 33x

5x Devastators = 18x
2x Lascannons = 14x
Total: 32x

For x less points you'd have two Lascannons, one at BS5 and one at BS4, rather than two at BS4. You'd get more close combat attacks, 3-6 Special Ammunition shots, free up a Heavy Support slot though.

The only thing the devs have is one shot at bs5.

The sternguard beat the devs in every other category.

Definitely a better buy than devs if you are going for 2 lascannons.

Devs are crucial!

Cant play Space Marines without them. Just stick them high up in a corner and let them rain down fire! Id only take between 1 and 3 cannon fodder marines tho, otherwise its a waste of points.

Newt-Of-Death wrote:Devs are crucial!

Cant play Space Marines without them. Just stick them high up in a corner and let them rain down fire! Id only take between 1 and 3 cannon fodder marines tho, otherwise its a waste of points.

You can't stick 'em in a corner! You will not be using their 'mobility' to maximum effect nor their super awesome combat tactics or bolt pistols!

What are you thinking?

Good point.

Just noticed this post tonight and I obviously havent flicked through the 9 pages! lol

If your gonna charge with them tho, why pay for the laz cannons or have them at all? Im willing to spend 180 points on 4 heavy weapons and some cannon fodder with lots of wounds if kept in cover, rather than 145 or so on a tank thats gonna get targeted and 'damage result 2'ed' out of use. But then again I normally take both! haha

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Newt-Of-Death wrote:Just noticed this post tonight and I obviously havent flicked through the 9 pages! lol

Its some exciting reading.

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of dealing with the omniscient opponent, that fabled "good player" against whom tactics are useless, here is a good link. You don't want to scare your opponent as mislead them into making a bad choice that looked good.

... Didn't anyone here play chess? you know, the whole thinking moves in advance? I thought it was a given in wargaming to consider your opponents moves. to quote that article:

Let's say I have a move (we'll call it "m") that's really, really good. I want to do it all the time. (Here's where the inequality of risk/reward comes in. If all my moves are equally good, this whole thing falls apart.) The "level 0" case here is discovering how good that move is and doing it all the time. Then, you will catch on and know that I'm likely to do that move a lot (Yomi Layer 1), so you'll need a counter move (we'll call it "c1"). You've stopped me from doing m. You've shut me down. I need a way to stop you from doing c1. I need a counter to your counter, or "c2."

Now you don't know what to expect from me anymore. I might do m, or I might do c2. Interestingly, I probably want to do m, but I just do c2 to scare you into not doing c1 anymore. Then I can sneak in more m.

You don't have adequate choices yet. I can alternate between m and c2, but all you have is c1. You need a counter to c2, which we'll call c3. Now we each have two moves.

Me: m, c2
You: c1, c3.

Now I need a counter to c3. The tendency might be to create a c4 move, but it's not necessary. The move m can serve as my c4. Basically, if you expect me to do my counter to your counter (rather than my original good move m), then I don't need a counter that; I can just do go ahead and do the original move...if the game is designed that way.

My only issue is that if i DO have c4, i have 2 counters now to your c3. Which makes c5 come out...

It's like a never-ending chain of counters (although i liked how he mentioned that some counters aren't specific counters, but more based on you expect me to use this, but to your suprise I'm going to use this instead at it is adequate for the job, and has a element of suprise). So in my mind, the more counters you can have up your sleeve, the better. Part of this is knowing a) what your units can do, how they can move, how they can fight, how much they are valued to you and how much are they feared/prioritized by your opponent, and b) what your opponents units can do, how they can move, how they can fight, how much your opponent relies upon them for victory.
Good article, kudo's for the linkage

-edit- HUUURRRRRRR. i missed the last bit of the article:
"So design counters and counters-to-counters, and so on, but know that making Yomi Layer 4 the same as Layer 0 allows you to only design counters up to Yomi Layer 3."
My bad!


On to devs...

As I've posted about 5-6 pages back, I use Dev's/Havocs (CSM!) as transport poppers as their number 1 role. 2 AC's and 2 ML's have performed solidly for me in that role, and popping transports can often be utterly crucial for victory Vs some armies- that squad is key specifically for when i play vs Marine/CSM friends, by popping rhino's/razorbacks heading for mid field objectives/getting to the juicy KP inside, and against ork trukk lists, for what i hope is an obvious reason.
One thing that irks me though is i rarely get to play against 'Nids, which I rarely get to play against and want to pit my havocs against to see how they go- a squad of transport hunters against an army...with no transports! last couple of times i played vs them was before the new 'dex, they mainly threw fire upon 'fex's, tyrants and focused fire with my CSM/plague marine squads to try and annihilate a unit in one go.

Jihallah wrote:

... Didn't anyone here play chess? you know, the whole thinking moves in advance? I thought it was a given in wargaming to consider your opponents moves. to quote that article:

Not on Dakka. On the net, it is de rigueur to consider that 'good' players always have the exact counter to everything you can do, and will always make the perfect move, immune to any misdirection or feint. The idea is that 'good' players are always perfect, thus the only tactics and lists that have any validity are those that pretend the opponent does not exist; the strong implication, of course, being that the poster in question is one of these elite 'good' players, who only plays with 'good' players, and perhaps one day you may become 'good' and join them if you are smart enough to use their tactics and armies.

As the Tau player in question I think maybe I can help imweasel understand the way I played the game and perhaps teach him a bit about how the Tau play...

We'll start with the mission in question as that always has a huge impact on the game and since we played a mission from the battlemissions book it becomes more relevant. The scenario played provided all Tau troops deployed on the board with the stealth special rule. Deployment was in a spearhead formation so we were spread across the table. Killpoints no objectives.

This allowed me to deploy my hammerheads and broadsides castled up in the far corner and use the deployed in cover as a broad screen. HQs, Elites and Fast had to come in from reserve and from the table edges not part of the spearhead deployment.

Kroot in cover with Stealth going to ground means that the missle launchers would take a toll, but by bunching them a bit made them a more attractive target than the battlesuits I didn't want him shooting at. I didn't need them as an assault screen as getting to midfield wasn't threatening yet, he needed to get the corner.

Target priority was even simpler. The Gating Libby with sternguard and assault squad were the units that were able to quickly get into my lines. They were therefore the primary target for battlesuits and when eliminated allowed focus on the other targets. 4 MLs from the devs in a good firing position across the entire board was a much bigger threat to me and my battlesuits than the TL lascannon rhino or pred destuctor with LC sponsons that were out of position across the board. I am happy to lose the HHs ahead of the battlesuits (and as someone mentioned earlier AV13 holds up quite well). In any event by firing repeatedly on the devs and keeping the kroot as a target I found very little fire directed at my suits.

If the vehicles were closing faster then I would have had to use the pirhanas to block movement and then focus fire on them, but being as far away as they were I didn't have to fire at them. However, assuming imweasel has played often. I'm sure he knows that target priority shifts depending on the flow of the game and positioning of units, not based on some mathammer equation of what unit is more effective vs. others...

Thanks for joining in, and for having the patience to get into the details. I had no idea what a can of worms I was opening...

Nurglitch wrote:
But then this is a Tactics thread, and it takes as its premise that you are taking Devastators. If you want to discuss why people should never take Devastators, I'm sure you could start a thread in the Army List forum. No doubt Dakka Dakka could profit by your insight lest they accidentally come to find success and enjoyment with their Devastators.

+1 QFT

On a side note this thread inspired me to try something that will only work once per opponent. HOW EVER, RESULTS ARE HILARIOUS! The premise of my idea is that DEV and Havoc squads fail due to price, mobility and close combat according to naysayers. SO WTFs wrong with adding extra points for mark of Khorne, a powerfist champ, and of course a strength upgrade from Fabius Bile in a Havoc squad? Nobody expects the heavy weapons team to assault them.

So far, the reactions have all been great. No one expects the HW team to have 3 attacks each (4 if charging) at str 5 (6 if things go poorly). They just crash into it with a CC unit and SURPRISE!

Thanks for the inspiration guys.