Hey all, I just wanted to see what everyone thinks of the new BA codex. Myself I am suprised at lack of Eternal Warrior, and the Single Model non-independant characters like <Mephiston. What do you folks think?? I also LOVE the potential of fast vindicators, 36 inch effective range with the 12 inch movement, you get first turn you could actually get a shot off. Anyone else's thoughts?>

Yes.

Dropping in with Melta will be great fun.

Stormravens are the most highly overrated thing since Sliced Bread (I own a knife, damn it!) and DC are woefully expensive.

Overpowered.

I don't say that lightly either, they really do just have too many toys, and the majority are EXTREMELY effective. Melta Grapple (or was it magma?)

Bah, better than the poor nids but not as good as IG or SW, They look fun, but I think it will boil down to dread bash with the skimmers, and min Marines, 5th is a tank game.

My impression is the following: There's not that many things that Vanilla can do that the BA cant do better, for a slight point increase or no point increase at all, and the Stormraven is just an icing on the cake that can kick ass and any marine player would like to have it.

Personally, I think the BA's have lots of toys...yes...

However, they pay for those abilities, and at a fair cost. That cost is not only in points either. (not being able to hide your most powerful MARINES within friendly squads)

I also think that this army is one of the most BUFF heavy in the game. With +1 attack aura's, Banners, FnP/FC bubbles, Elite Chaplains, Libby's creating light cover.....the buffs are everywhere you look in the codex.
I think that this fact differentiates them from vanilla VERY much. The fact that you pay for all these abilities at a fair cost still gives vanilla marines reason to play their own armies without being too tempted.

Also, I still beleive Tactical Marines are completely useless in this army.

Deadshane1 wrote:Also, I still beleive Tactical Marines are completely useless in this army.

No Need to believe. They are useless. Assault Marines are cheaper and the "omg they can haz a heavy Weapon" argument for Tacticals doesn't cut it in My opinion.

Maybe it's the IG player in me, but I'm beginning to think it's best to avoid the majority of the special characters, and take a reclusiarch instead, just to fit a decent amount of small "t" troops in your army. Sanguinary priests are a must have, in my opinion.

DC look awesome, but then their points value, and the lack of objective holding sinks in. I'm running without them.

I think the only seriously competitive HQ in the army is a Librarian. By a million miles.

Unless Honour Guard count. lol

Its a very solid books, but the characters are the worst of the marine characters, on par with chaos for bad

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Its a very solid books, but the characters are the worst of the marine characters, on par with chaos for bad

I think Gabriel Seth and Astorath are pretty cool guys. They don't have the best rules around, but I like their fluff.

There hasn't been a single post without any form of negativity in it. Why can't you all just be happy little Vegemites?

I for one like the new BA codex. In fact, from now on, to express this, I will only refer to them as... Love Marines!

ive been talking to some of my freinds and they say it is overpowerd

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Its a very solid books, but the characters are the worst of the marine characters, on par with chaos for bad

Dante isnt that bad and Tycho is actually good for a change. Lemartes kinda got "nerfed" Corbulo is slightly better, Astorath is interesting, Seth is really dumb, Sanguinor is a kool concept and thats it kinda kool on the buff thing but still.

The book seems alright - nothing too inspiring. The only reason I have behind wanting any flavor of Blood Angel is because I think Flesh Tearers look really cool. I think having every vehicle be fast is kind of a kick in the nuts, and I don't like some of the random elements. Seth is cool in theory, but he has no army-effective special abilities (really, he should have Astorath's extra red thirst ability) and his weapon doesn't ignore armor. Overall I'm happy Blood Angels have a real codex, but it's nothing to get too excited about for me.

It would be better to say that Seth is good for his price. S8 at I6/5 is pretty nice, and auto hitting vs. anything is even better. It's just that the other models are so OTT.

It looks like this Dex has a more than one build, it's got some interesting ideas, and some good units, but it's hard for people to break. Which is why there's the non-excitement. People want the easy button, and it's just not there, so they're poo-pooing it. Personally, I like it.

Karon wrote:Overpowered.

I don't say that lightly either, they really do just have too many toys, and the majority are EXTREMELY effective. Melta Grapple (or was it magma?)

Lies. And pictures if also lies. Did you read the codex or just buy the hype? You complain about the magna grapple- a melta gun on a dred that isnt melta, AP2 instead of 1, and If it pens it moves the vehicle 2d6 closer to the dred. Not that scary.

Honestly- there are toys, but the toys are expensive to the point of prohibition. There is nothing in this codex that I look at and say, "Man, is that broken."

Honestly, seems balanced to me. Bought it because it better fit how I already played. Mechanized assault with CHEAPER (Guns are 10pts less VS Vanilla) devs.

Also, I still beleive Tactical Marines are completely useless in this army.

That's a pity.
However, they are required to occupy mission objectives...

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:There hasn't been a single post without any form of negativity in it. Why can't you all just be happy little Vegemites?

I for one like the new BA codex. In fact, from now on, to express this, I will only refer to them as... Love Marines!

1. Because they are overpowered. I mean, Deep-striking LR? C'mon.

And 2. Have you even read the Codex?

wuestenfux wrote:

Also, I still beleive Tactical Marines are completely useless in this army.

That's a pity.
However, they are required to occupy mission objectives...

Not so, as Assault marines are troops.

I'm not that impressed with it myself.. And am not even tempted.. Unless I wanted to make Iron wing with those fast preds etc.

Tim the Biovore wrote:

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:There hasn't been a single post without any form of negativity in it. Why can't you all just be happy little Vegemites?

I for one like the new BA codex. In fact, from now on, to express this, I will only refer to them as... Love Marines!

1. Because they are overpowered. I mean, Deep-striking LR? C'mon.

And 2. Have you even read the Codex?

Yes, I have read most of it. And I love my love marines, just because they can drop fricking 1,000 ton tanks, right on top of the ENEMY!

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVVVEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think deepstriking landraiders are a silly idea in terms of game design. (I don't care if its 'plausible' in the background or not, this is a game where men cross the glaaxy in 5km long battleships to duel with swords) At the end of the day, more and more units in every army are being given the ability to deepstrike. Enough already. SM of all variants have the ability to deploy entirely by drop pod, terminators/jump troops/land speeders/ can deepstrike naturally already. I think for BA only rhinos, razorbacks, whirlwinds, vindicators and predators (oh yeah, bikes too) can't deepstrike.

Maybe I'm clinging to tradition, but I don't think you should be able to deepstrike anything anytime. Or maybe I'm just jealous as an Eldar player, everyone getting new skimmers gets scout and/or deep strike on them! I think if you want your army to arrive that way, you should accept some restrictions on what you can take.

In terms of power, deepstriking a land raider seems a pretty bad idea. You can't assault the turn you come out of deep strike right? So you get one shot from POTMS, that's only particularly effective if you use a redeemer, and for that you need to run a huge risk of a mishap on your super-expensive unit. Also, it's quite easy to deny space for a deep strike when the unit in question is LR-size. Oh, and close range is actually where your opponent wants you to be, you're essentially dropping by and giving him a meltagun shot before your cargo can assault. Matter of fact, I can't see any situation where I would deepstrike a LR onto the field.

Still against the idea in principle though!

DS-ing Land Raiders should need the T-hawk transporter as model at your game...

But thats the only complaint there, cause rapid insertion is à valid strategy of the astartes fluffwise and would allow both
basic designs ( rhino chassis , LR ) to Enter a landing zone.

Would rather question the fate of the Techmarine, again screwed in the BA Codex .
Not IC and Elite?

Another weird thing: the Captain can't get artificer armor ( as BA ?) and can't get the Codex-specific weapon unlike SM and SW captains could. :(

i mean i looks nice but its still a bit overpowerd

I laugh when people say that Infernus Pistols are a very good new thing the new BA codex brings

Also to the Eldar players Death Company is a bit OP, but a good solution is full squad of Howling Banshees with Yriel. Only 332 points, and the banshees got wiped out but I knocked down that 1700 point 16 man squad to three members
Just make sure to always get the charge on them because of Furious Charge.

They are not overpowered, because they are on par with Guard and Nilla Marines.

How could the 5th Edition baseline be overpowered?

Stop comparing Apples to Oranges, and realise the Codex is well balanced, please.

As stated above, Deep Striking Land Raiders aren't even good in theory. In practice - they'd mishap far too often to be viable. It's a crappy gimmick, like Pedro, or Old Zogwort.

I don't like them, and I don't like the fact that they have everything vanilla Space Marines have, and then so much more.

Dedrith wrote:I don't like them, and I don't like the fact that they have everything vanilla Space Marines have, and then so much more.

Yes, all those Blood Angel Thunderfire Cannons are really gonna change the metagame.

BA do NOT have everything Nilla marines have, and the advantages they have are balanced by much higher points costs.

They have the worst characters of any marine dex. Ive made armies with BA, and HQ is always my last choice. Nothing else in the army is really threatening. Wolves are certainly a better list.

Librarians are on par with Rune Priests. The rest is meh.

Gwar! wrote:

Dedrith wrote:I don't like them, and I don't like the fact that they have everything vanilla Space Marines have, and then so much more.

Yes, all those Blood Angel Thunderfire Cannons are really gonna change the metagame.

BA do NOT have everything Nilla marines have, and the advantages they have are balanced by much higher points costs.

Alright, let me re-phrase that.

I don't like them, and I don't like the fact that they have JUST ABOUT everything vanilla Space Marines have, and then so much more.

I'm surprised I haven't seen people talk about the potential to load up a land raider crusader with a chaplin HQ (forget the name and codex is at home), a priest, and a bunch of lightning claw/thunderhammer terminators.

You could get terminators with feel no pain, furious charge, and reroll misses in close combat (plus reroll strength 5 lightning claw wounds). Yes it costs 700+ points, but it will tear through just about anything.

Death company are expensive, but for a unit of 11 plus lamartes in a land raider redeemer will really wreck havok on most thing they charge.

However, for 155 points a five man assault squad with melta & power fist in a fast razorback with a twin linked heavy flamer is a very good buy.

Blood angels can also run a TON of land raiders if desired.

The Stormraven is overpriced in comparison to the Vendetta, IMO you are better off with a raider.

Unless you are going for a hard core assault army, you can really make a very shooty army with 3 vindicators, 3 bhaal predators, and a bunch of razorbacks.

Also, the ability to reroll one roll a game can be pretty epic. I can see it now:

"Do we have a turn 6?" -IG player holding on for the win
"Can I roll it?" -BA Player
"Sure" -the roll is a 1 "Looks like I win"- IG
"Let me reroll that" BA

I love new codices. They're like a litmus test for idiocy.

Nurglitch wrote:I love new codices. They're like a litmus test for idiocy.

Unusually, I am in perfect agreement with you.

I don't have the new codex, but a friend of mine has been raving about it all weekend.
You guys are saying their special characters aren't up to snuff, but my friend was talking about how epicly awesome Mephiston is now.

So is he not that awesome?

And apparently there can be librarian Dreadnaughts that can fly... that gives me nightmares.

Libby Dreads are great.

Mephiston is a beast, but he's not an IC, so can be shot to hell before getting near you. Admittedly, he's the 40k equivalent of your avatar - but he isn't unstoppable, and is costly.

Playing against the blood angels with my space wolves I can just tell ya that they have very strong support elements. Granted I was playing against a list with no troops choices eating points (my opponent didn't tell me, but it was for funsies, whatever)

They are like regular marines but they just have so many little things that make them hard to fight.

I want to get some more games in but it seems like the marine army where you need to go after support elements first rather than go after the troops.

I have to say, Mephiston has impressed me so far. I had my doubts about him (250, and he can't be in a unit?), but every single battle I've used him he's just single-handedly decimated everything he gets into combat with. I play against 'Nids quite often, and Mephiston regularly brings down Trygons, Carnifexes, Tyrants, you name it. I need to try and get him against Swarmlord to see what happens there. The lack of an Inv save hurts him, but he's T6 with W5 so you need a lot of heavy weapons to bring him down (as he'll hit most Assault units first with I7). Most light-arms fire won't even phase him, due to the T6/W5/2+ combo. Stick a Sanguinary Priest within 6" and he gets FNP as well. He's very, very expensive but from what I've seen so far, he's definitely worth using in larger battles. In small battles I'd probably use a regular Librarian/Epistolary or a Reclusiarch.

As for the Codex, as a whole it's very nice. If you've played BA for a long time, this Codex is an absolute blessing after playing with a gimped so-called Codex PDF. My only concerns with the army list are the cost of Death Company and the lack of a model for the Stormraven.

Fluff-wise I do have some issues. Death Company used to have Black Rage, and then Red Thirst was a rule that made them go crazy in combat. Now Black Rage does that, and Red Thirst has been relegated to a simple Fearless/Furious Charge. Also, I really, really don't like the background material for The Sanguinor. Almost every battle mentioned in the Codex he turns up, owns everything and disappears (aside from the Night Lords Battle Barge where he only kills the CSM in his way). I just don't like how he's effectively a 'win-button' in the fluff. As for the Necron-BA alliance... don't even get me started.

Overall it's a massive improvement from the PDF, but the fluff does let it down a bit. Still, after so long without a REAL Codex, I'll take whatever I can get. Can't wait until the next 40k army release though, I'm gonna hate seeing everyone repainting their Ultramarines to Blood Angels.

@asugradinwa: You can't have DC with Lemartes in a Land Raider- Lemartes has a Jump Pack, and he's effectively an upgrade character for the DC so I don't think he can leave them.

Tim the Biovore wrote:

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:There hasn't been a single post without any form of negativity in it. Why can't you all just be happy little Vegemites?

I for one like the new BA codex. In fact, from now on, to express this, I will only refer to them as... Love Marines!

1. Because they are overpowered. I mean, Deep-striking LR? C'mon.

And 2. Have you even read the Codex?

A deep striking Land Raider isn't overpowered, it's just stupid.

"Hey, let's drop our super expensive tank out of a low flying aircraft, close to enemy lines where it can mishap or be in range of their melta guns and close combat weapons!"

Flawless!

lol
Anyone tries to use Tactical Squads en masse like the Ultras can do is going to be very disappointed...

I like it and at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I wish DA had got this treatment. It's not got everything that the Vanilla Marines have (Land Speeder Storm and Thunderfire Cannon being the two missing entries that I noticed) and I do think you pay for what you're getting, especially with regards to the Death Company!

I thought Red Thirst was a freebie, but it effectively replaces Combat Tactics (vanilla marines' useful ability to opt to fail a morale test and fall back) and you're by no means guaranteed to get it. In that respect, it's inclusion in the codex is fairly balanced.

@Neith: Very good point. I guess there will have to be a Reclusiarch ridding with the death company instead.

I like it

What I've read, I've liked. I plan on picking up my own copy soon and painting plenty of assault marines up in the same paint scheme as my vanilla Marines, can use 90% of my models for both BA and Marines then

It's a nice codex and I'm afraid I'll like it better than my SM codex for the simple reason that it's so much more mobile.

What I don't like is that this codex makes it even more clear how superfluous tactical squads are.

Personally I think they are powerful and can really dangerous against certain armies but alright against others. I see the BA right behind the Space Pups in terms of strength but it is fairly close in that regard.

They have a lots of great toys and a lot of iffy options but all the iffy stuff you can EASILY avoid. Yes Rhinos are like 50% more expensive, but no one said you HAVE to take them. They got drop pods, land raiders (that deepstrike!), or just go jump pack infantry. Assault squads even get a discount if they go with a transport instead of jump packs (which then makes them cheaper than a tact squad if you want a transport). Preds are only slightly move expensive and honestly for like 10 points it is worth getting fast vehicle so you don't have to stand still the entire game to fire all your guns. Plus you keep your Vanguard and Sternguard veterans, now I could understand the Vanguard but Sternguard is kinda weird since I thought they were supposed to be the really unique unit in the vanilla marine codex.

I'm at the point with the standard Space Marine codex that unless you are using a HQ that alters the entire army, don't bother with the vanilla Space Marine codex and look at either Blood Angels or Space Wolves.

On a side note: I love how so many people are defending Thunderfire Cannons and Land Speeder Storms now. I think it is hilarious since a month or two ago these things were considered complete trash but now they are GREAT because no one else has them! I'm hoping I am not the only one finding that funny. At least use Venerable or Ionclad dreads, wait a moment...

Shrubs wrote:What I don't like is that this codex makes it even more clear how superfluous tactical squads are.

Yes, given the choice between a 170 point Tactical Squad and a 190 point Assault Squad, I think most people are going to lean towards the latter option. You wouldn't even buy a 90 point 5 man combat squad to hold objectives, because scouts can fulfill that role.

I think Tactical squads will need either a points drop or some kind of bonus ability (perhaps reflecting their semi-veteran status in relation to Assault and Devastator Squads) in future editions. A simple but effective one would be something like Bolter Drill i.e. the ability to reroll bolter misses when shooting.

MotF is Nilla unique, and actually good. Although...he edits the FoC, so...

Speaking of units 'unique' to Codex: Space Marines, Ironclads are more expensive than Furioso Dreadnoughts, but have a Seismic Hammer rather than a Blood Fish (aka Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon), which confers +1 to damage results, integral Extra Armour when adding Extra Armour to a Furioso immediately makes it more expensive than an Ironclad, an integral Searchlight, the Move Through Cover special rule, the option for two Heavy Flamers, and the option of Ironclad Assault Launchers.

I've been playing my Furioso as an Ironclad or Venerable Dreadnought, and the new Furioso rules are a downgrade.

Blood Talons are nice, so long as you don't have to worry about other walkers, and the Magna Grapple is a fancy Krak Missile, and Furious Charge is good if you're not charging an enemy in cover, and the WS6 is pretty awesome but...

Overpriced? Ye-NO. Ten to fifteen points extra for fast vehicles across the board is crazy. Why even think about taking a gunship when you can have three AC/LC preds scooting about 6" and firing all weapons?

Where's the drawback for a 1 in 6 chance of fearless/furious charge at no increase to base cost of core units?

Where the hell did all this blood come from? Was it not enough for their chapter to have a sanguine tone with the typical space marine terminology?

Who decided it would be a good idea to make 6" bubbles of FNP for any, ANY army in the game for peanuts in points costs?

Why did they give every tactical/assault squad in the army the opportunity to drive a land raider out of the sky?

... and finally, the biggest question of them all:

Why play standard 40k with this army? All jump units gives you something that deploys on turn 2 (>75% of the time) with half the usual scatter. It's like you're playing Chaos Daemons, except you have four times the deep strike accuracy (reroll reserves + less scatter) and three times the survivability (FNP, 3+ saves, 5+ cover bubbles from Libbys, etc. etc. etc.) and more killing power at range when you land (melta guns, plasma pistols, psychic powers, etc. etc. etc.) for something like... an extra 30% in cost? Oh, and all of your units doing this can be troops.

If you don't see GW re-inventing the wheel with each new codex as a bad thing, try to remember back to the days of Magic: The Gathering. Type 1 sets! Vintage sets! Type II sets! Look at all that money vaporizing!

Slackermagee wrote:
Where's the drawback for a 1 in 6 chance of fearless/furious charge at no increase to base cost of core units?

View it from the opposite side; they're the same cost as vanilla marines but 5/6ths of the time they have nothing in exchange for Combat Tactics.

Jack

Slackermagee wrote:Overpriced? Ye-NO. Ten to fifteen points extra for fast vehicles across the board is crazy. Why even think about taking a gunship when you can have three AC/LC preds scooting about 6" and firing all weapons?

Where's the drawback for a 1 in 6 chance of fearless/furious charge at no increase to base cost of core units?

Where the hell did all this blood come from? Was it not enough for their chapter to have a sanguine tone with the typical space marine terminology?

Who decided it would be a good idea to make 6" bubbles of FNP for any, ANY army in the game for peanuts in points costs?

Why did they give every tactical/assault squad in the army the opportunity to drive a land raider out of the sky?

... and finally, the biggest question of them all:

Why play standard 40k with this army? All jump units gives you something that deploys on turn 2 (>75% of the time) with half the usual scatter. It's like you're playing Chaos Daemons, except you have four times the deep strike accuracy (reroll reserves + less scatter) and three times the survivability (FNP, 3+ saves, 5+ cover bubbles from Libbys, etc. etc. etc.) and more killing power at range when you land (melta guns, plasma pistols, psychic powers, etc. etc. etc.) for something like... an extra 30% in cost? Oh, and all of your units doing this can be troops.

If you don't see GW re-inventing the wheel with each new codex as a bad thing, try to remember back to the days of Magic: The Gathering. Type 1 sets! Vintage sets! Type II sets! Look at all that money vaporizing!

In Soviet Russia, wheel reinvents you.

I think you're too caught up with this. Try writing a Land Raider Drop army. Seriously. See how little you can fit in it. Especially at anything under 2k. Try it for 1500.

I like the flexibility of the new dex. They can certainly do a better assault army than Chaos that's for sure. I dislike the fact that everything seems too fantasic and overdone (6'' FNP, librarian dreadnaughts and deepstriking LR just to name a few). I hope the next chaos book is as flexibile as the BA book, minus the Matt Ward craziness.

I read the rules for Mephiston and just about threw up. He's ridiculous for his points. IMO he should be 300. But then again, I missed that he wasn't an IC, so that might balance it.

I also noticed that death company are cheaper than berzerkers and better than them in almost every way. The only advantage zerkers have is they're a scoring unit. Admittedly that can be a big advantage, but DC still get FNP on top of all their goodies.

I picked it up yesterday and after reading through it I'm happy with it. I think there's alot of the usual new codex over-reaction out there. Yes they do get good things but they pay for them. As someone who has always run jumppack heavy I'm happy that it's still a valid option.
Not sure exactly what my army will look like in the end. The price of Death Company with jump packs is making me wary of running them at the unit size I'd prefer. It may end up that multiple assault squads supported by Sanguinary priests will be a better way to go.

I like most of the fluff, Sanguinor excepted. While an interesting idea I think the writing describing it and it's exploits let it down. Not sure every chapter needs a mystical ally/allies that show up "in times of direst need".

The Necron thing annoys me less than others, I mainly see it as a hint at them really giving Necron Lords a wide variety of personalities which wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

They seem to have abandoned the notion that after the First Founding they stopped using Blood Angels gene-seed. I think this is a nice change. It's easy to see the High Lords wanting to believe someone who's telling them " We think we have the flaw isolated and under control this time" only to be proven wrong again and again.

Dante should have an Iron Halo or some other invulnerable save, Tycho too. Basic Captains get an Iron Halo, did they lose theirs or have to turn them in to wear the muscled armor?
Astorath intrigues me mostly to get the greater chance at Fearless/Furious Charge. Not sure I like his background that he's the only one who does that for all the Angels and their Successors.

Overall I like it, maybe more than the Space Wolf Codex, which is saying a lot as they have been my favorite army for a very long time, but I don't think anything in the Angels codex is as silly as space marines riding wolves...

Both Dante and Tycho have Iron Halos listed in their Wargear.

It's ridiculous. Perhaps not undercosted (though I haven't decided it isn't), but seriously...

You take space marines, who are supposed to be the elite, and then make them more elite. And then you make them faster, and pissed off. And give their dreadnaughts psychic powers. And then you have Angry Marines - er, no, sorry, Blood Angels.

I understand the desire to make everybody in the army AWESOME!!1!11!!1 but really... tone it down a bit, man. Even if people are paying reasonable points prices for what they're getting, rank-and-file space marines don't need to be Chuck Norris, Muhammad Ali, Iron Man, and the Flash all at the same time.

As for DSing LRs... really, you all think it's a terrible idea because of the possibility of mishap? I'll be the first to say that it wouldn't always be useful, but on occasion - like, say, against Tau, where every turn you're not in range of their S10 gun is a turn don't have to worry about getting out of your wrecked LR and footslogging it - I'd think it would be fine. A LR's DS footprint isn't larger than a Soul Grinder's, or much bigger than a large unit of daemonettes, both of which can't go on the table without deepstriking... and you'll be scattering half the distance. Yeah, my daemons mishap every once in a while, but when it happens it's usually because I'm being either desperate or stupid. Or both.

Noisy_Marine:

Let's compare Berzerkers to Death Company directly:

Death Company/Berzerkers
-Can't hold objectives/Can hold objectives
-20pts each/21pts each
-Fearless/Fearless
-Furious Charge/Furious Charge
-Black Rage/nothing
-Relentless/nothing
-Feel No Pain/nothing
-WS5/WS5
-A2/A2
-Ld8/Ld9
-Min.3/Min.5
-Character:Lemartes/Character:Skull Champion

The Death Company advantages are Relentless, which is just a little useless (this coming from the guy whose own Death Company has Bolters), Feel No Pain, which is nice against anything that isn't effective against Power Armour anyways, and 1 less point. So one big advantage and one small advantage. What do the Berzerkers have going for them? They can hold objectives. They suck at it, but they can. They don't have a Rage rule. Seriously, Rage sucks, particularly where they have to consolidate towards the closest visible enemy. It means they need a vehicle to go somewhere useful, and they'd better kill something expensive because they're going to have to be lucky to get a second chance.

Characterful, lovely new models (and good idea to get a sprue of Blood Angel specific stuff out there), and better than Berzerkers in the two ways, the ones that don't actually count (Holding objectives and being controllable vs -1pt and Feel No Pain...).

It's wonderful for players in the long run to have a flexible codex and this has been the mind set of GW for a very long time. What we're seeing now is a propensity to make codices TOO flexible. Each one is getting to be top class at too many things. Guard used to be a horde/shooty army. Now they can be mech horde, fast mech horde, uber-gunline, fast-uber-gunline, outflanking madness, and so much more! With the right kit you can be excellent in every phase of the game. Ditto for nids and space wolves (they got vastly improved maneuverability and we're already passable to excellent at just about everything).

Armies should have things they CAN'T do. Things that only other armies can pull off (like crazy psychic powers belonging to the armies that don't think of it as a dangerous semi-heretical act). It's going to be like Fantasy eventually, with the only differences between armies being the number of models doing awesome things each turn. A ton of models doing okay things or a handful being rockstars with the end results being IDENTICAL.

Ick. Ick ick ick.

I so far with the few games i have played like the new codex, and I do think it's balanced. Death Company though, with Rage is a huge flaw. A good general with a fast unit or two can pull them where they want them, with little ability to acuratly control them unless you put them in a vehicle I find I will not be taking them. (AM picking up a box though, those bits in there rock). Mephiston and Sangiunor are good, but lack of IC means large target, because no one in their right mind wants either of those guys in close combat with an important unit and you can just shoot the crap out of them, they will fail saves eventually even at 2+ for Mephy. Deep striking land raiders is so dangerous that you will never see it, the footprint plus 2d6 scattering is a recipe for a 7 point gaunt being underneath the raider and thus killing it and it's contents. The new Blood Talons are amazing anti infantry weapons, the 13 front armour helps tremendously. Dante is amazing in that stick him in a SAng Guard with Melta guns and literally deep strike exactly 1 inch away from a vehicle and hit it with melta guns. (He is cheesy in my opinion, that death mask is nuts.) The biggest strength this codex has is one two punches. The combo potential is amazing for breaking a game in your favour when they work.

Nurglitch wrote:Let's compare Berzerkers to Death Company directly:

Characterful, lovely new models (and good idea to get a sprue of Blood Angel specific stuff out there), and better than Berzerkers in the two ways, the ones that don't actually count (Holding objectives and being controllable vs -1pt and Feel No Pain...).

Missed the 0-1 restriction...
____

@Slacker: You've got Guard players who started in 5 editions, each with different preferred gaming & play styles. Catering to all of them to some extent requires more flexibility in the Codex. And really, why shouldn't Guard be playable as a Mech force.

So, instead of every Codex being mono-build, it looks like they're getting multi-build. That really isn't bad at all. There are things that BA can't do, and that is why SM exist. There are things that SW do better. Or just plain differently. That's not a bad thing, either. I just don't see the problem.

And really, if every army can be good at everything, how are Guard dominating in the Assault Phase? Please tell. How about BA massed firepower?

This is what I thought was really funny about the new codex:

BA recruit, starts as a scout, learns to hide good.
Turns into a full marine, and joins an assault squad, learns the trick of deep striking really accurately.
Grows up joins the dev squad, and then the tac squad. And, if he stays alive, eventually gets promoted to 1st company, where he's allowed to pick his own weapons. Most pick jump packs, cause, you know, they're BA, and they like those. But he forgets how to deep strike accurately.
Finally, if he is double-plus-super-good at being a BA, he gets to be a sanguinary guard - and remembers how to deep strike accurately again.

For a codex that's all about jump troops, and how accurately an precisely they can make it to the field, it seems extremely strange that their vanguard units don't also get the Descent of Angels rule. Since when did being a veteran make you less capable than your new recruits?

Actually I had wondered about that too until someone pointed out that Jump Packs confer the Descent of Angels rule to Blood Angels, and that Vanguard Veterans have Jump Packs as an options rather than default wargear.

Redbeard wrote:This is what I thought was really funny about the new codex:

BA recruit, starts as a scout, learns to hide good.
Turns into a full marine, and joins an assault squad, learns the trick of deep striking really accurately.
Grows up joins the dev squad, and then the tac squad. And, if he stays alive, eventually gets promoted to 1st company, where he's allowed to pick his own weapons. Most pick jump packs, cause, you know, they're BA, and they like those. But he forgets how to deep strike accurately.
Finally, if he is double-plus-super-good at being a BA, he gets to be a sanguinary guard - and remembers how to deep strike accurately again.

For a codex that's all about jump troops, and how accurately an precisely they can make it to the field, it seems extremely strange that their vanguard units don't also get the Descent of Angels rule. Since when did being a veteran make you less capable than your new recruits?

vanguard do have descent of angels if you give them jump packs.

Redbeard wrote:This is what I thought was really funny about the new codex:

BA recruit, starts as a scout, learns to hide good.
Turns into a full marine, and joins an assault squad, learns the trick of deep striking really accurately.
Grows up joins the dev squad, and then the tac squad. And, if he stays alive, eventually gets promoted to 1st company, where he's allowed to pick his own weapons. Most pick jump packs, cause, you know, they're BA, and they like those. But he forgets how to deep strike accurately.
Finally, if he is double-plus-super-good at being a BA, he gets to be a sanguinary guard - and remembers how to deep strike accurately again.

For a codex that's all about jump troops, and how accurately an precisely they can make it to the field, it seems extremely strange that their vanguard units don't also get the Descent of Angels rule. Since when did being a veteran make you less capable than your new recruits?

Jump packs give you the Descent of Angels rule.

Wow, there you go. I guess I didn't read the part about jump packs, as I figured they'd be the same as jump packs for every other army. Silly me...

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Slacker: You've got Guard players who started in 5 editions, each with different preferred gaming & play styles. Catering to all of them to some extent requires more flexibility in the Codex. And really, why shouldn't Guard be playable as a Mech force.

So, instead of every Codex being mono-build, it looks like they're getting multi-build. That really isn't bad at all. There are things that BA can't do, and that is why SM exist. There are things that SW do better. Or just plain differently. That's not a bad thing, either. I just don't see the problem.

To a point, I agree. But I don't understand why guard have options for being fast, other than rough riders. Valks were a bizarre addition, even if the model and rules are cool and people love them. It's about as odd as if GW came out with an Eldar codex that had units equivalent to plague marines in it... not completely unjustifiable with some retconning, but still a major head-scratcher.

@Redbeard: Because every other Rhino / Razorback / Storm Shield has the same rules?
____

@DaveL: Guard getting Valks isn't a bad thing - it's a cool model, and lets Guard play 5E (Objectives) properly. I think you'll see new stuff for Necrons, Eldar, etc. that change the game as well. Perhaps, we'll finally have Official rules for the Slicing Orb Aspect.

DaveL:

You mean like Wraithguard?

I've not yet read the codex, but my impressions are that it's somewhat balanced. That aside...

What I don't like about what I've heard:

1) Deep striking landraiders is epically slowed.
2) Magna-Crapple or whatever it's called = massive game design FAIL!
3) The stormraven should have just been a freekin' Thunderhawk.
4) Librarian dreadnoughts... are you freekin' kidding me? LAME!

The writer needs punched in the face for his momentary lapse in good judgement and bout of idiocy.

I believe this codex will continue to be received badly not because it's 'over powered', but rather it give the Blood Angels 'toys' and abilities that were completely unheard of in the 40K universe until now. It's different and not a good different, but a very strange different.

I've never liked Blood Angels and this new codex had me interested for a brief time, but now seeing how 'strange' it is leaves me in the same seat of distaste.

oni wrote:I believe this codex will continue to be received badly not because it's 'over powered', but rather it give the Blood Angels 'toys' and abilities that were completely unheard of in the 40K universe until now.

I've never liked Blood Angels

Yeah, it's totally unlike:
- Thunderwolf Cavalry
- Mawlocs & Tervigon
- Land Raider Redeemer, Land Speeder Storm, Thunderfire cannon, Ironclad Dread, Vanguard Veterans
- Defilers
- Land Raider Crusader
- Baal Predator & Furioso Dreadnought
- C'Tan, Tomb Spyder, Pariahs & Flayed Ones
- Land Speeder Typhoon
- Talos, Wyches, Haemonculi
- SM Vindictor
...
Seriously, how far do you want to go back?

At least your honest about your real motivation here.

Actually I think oni crystallized what's been bugging me about this codex: it reads like one of the fan-dexes we see down in the depraved depths of the Proposed Rules forum, except instead of being safely tucked away where it can be ignored, it's being sold in stores.

This codex gives me hope for my future career in rules writing and game design.

@Nurglitch: Thing is, nobody forces you to use the wierd stuff. Don't like DSing Land Raiders? Don't take them, and don't DS them.

It's the same with the original Craftworlds Codex: didn't like the Jetbike models, didn't buy them, don't play as Saim-Hann.

In many ways, things like DSing Land Raiders are like MtG Dragons and giant Greens. They're flashy, and awesome if you ever make them work. But usually, not strong

JohnHwangDD:

Of course nobody is holding a gun to my head. I don't have to use "the wierd stuff". I'm moreso concerned about the ordinary stuff that used to be my Blood Angels army. I've adapted them for Codex: Space Marines and I'm finding it hard to adapt my army to the new Codex.

Take the Devastators, for example. They have cheaper Heavy Weapons, which is good. But they have the Red Thirst instead of Combat Tactics, which is bad. Maybe I'm spoiled or something, but I don't want to play Devastators that can't escape from combat.

Or the Rhinos. I'm now paying an extra 15pts per Rhino, which is fine because I'm not paying the extra for the Death Company that are now almost worse than useless. A Fast Whirlwind is nice, but I don't want a Fast Whirlwind because I want my Whirlwind parked behind line-of-sight blocking terrain.

I actually like that I can take both my Captain, my Librarian, and my Chaplain all in the same army now, and I like the fact that I can use my Furioso Dreadnought as a Furioso Dreadnought, although I rather prefer having it count as an Ironclad or swapping its right arm and being a Venerable Dreadnought.

I guess Blood Angels just aren't my style anymore.

@Nurglitch:

Nothing wrong with that, although I'm addressing the issue planning to partition my SM as into C: SM & C: BA forces that share models. So when I want to play Devastators & 2 CCW Ironclads, I play C: SM. When I want massed JPs, it'll be C: BA.

Nurglitch wrote:You mean like Wraithguard?

Heh. Fair point. Perhaps I should've said giving Dark Eldar a monolith instead?

@Nurglitch

You can still play them as vanilla. If you'd been using the PDF rules, then you never would have had combat tactics, your furioso would be getting an upgrade and it the rhino increase wouldn't be as bad.

Anyone thought about the dread list, cheap libby HQ, some death company, and Dread Dread Dread

OH HEY, LOOK AT THAT!

The first codex to get an assault 2 flame template. It's also a free upgrade from an assault weapon!

WAKAWAKAWAKA

Deep Striking Land Raiders go full distance.

They do not have Descent of Angels.

Elessar wrote:Deep Striking Land Raiders go full distance.

They do not have Descent of Angels.

That's what locator beacons are for....

JohnHwangDD wrote:

oni wrote:I believe this codex will continue to be received badly not because it's 'over powered', but rather it give the Blood Angels 'toys' and abilities that were completely unheard of in the 40K universe until now.

I've never liked Blood Angels

Yeah, it's totally unlike:
- Thunderwolf Cavalry
- Mawlocs & Tervigon
- Land Raider Redeemer, Land Speeder Storm, Thunderfire cannon, Ironclad Dread, Vanguard Veterans
- Defilers
- Land Raider Crusader
- Baal Predator & Furioso Dreadnought
- C'Tan, Tomb Spyder, Pariahs & Flayed Ones
- Land Speeder Typhoon
- Talos, Wyches, Haemonculi
- SM Vindictor
...
Seriously, how far do you want to go back?

At least your honest about your real motivation here.

Than you should know that I'm right.

doubled wrote:Anyone thought about the dread list, cheap libby HQ, some death company, and Dread Dread Dread

Libby dread is elite. No dread HQ.

Elessar wrote:Deep Striking Land Raiders go full distance.

They do not have Descent of Angels.

You would seem to be correct, sir.

I apparently misread the codex's RAW, thinking that assault squads in vehicles were supposed to be able to use Descent if they DS'd inside the vehicle, but I can't find justification for that. It is odd that they have Descent independently of jump packs, but I guess it was a simple oversight...

In any case, even scattering the full amount isn't an insurmountable problem unless the table is completely covered in impassable terrain.

Arschbombe wrote:

doubled wrote:Anyone thought about the dread list, cheap libby HQ, some death company, and Dread Dread Dread

Libby dread is elite. No dread HQ.

That's why he said "cheap libby HQ", and not "cheap libby DREAD Hq".

As for my first impressions, I think I can now finally take an army that is not mech and still have a chance. I like jump-pack spam.

doubled wrote:Anyone thought about the dread list, cheap libby HQ, some death company, and Dread Dread Dread

I actually made a 2000 point list that had 11 dreadnoughts in it. Granted chances are it won't be worth anything but still something to think about.
Basically it is a Librarian, a 25 man death company, 5 Death Company Dreads, 3 Librarian Dreads, and 3 standard dreads. Eat that Master of the Forge.

SirRouga wrote:I actually made a 2000 point list that had 11 dreadnoughts in it.

See, now that's pretty darn cool, just because you can do it.

I'll be playing against it for the first time tomorrow. Until then I have no real idea what to expect other than Baal pred spam and Mephiston. Wish me and the World Eaters luck...=/

Played my first game with BA tonight. It ended in a draw only because I charged off one objective onto another and failed to wipe out the vanguard squad on the second objective. Hey, I thought there would be a turn 6!

Mephiston is a freak. He killed a chapter master, stern guard squad, and a 10 man devastator squad. He would've killed more but he took 3 wounds from the chapter master thanks to my crappy rolling (even with re-rolls on everything). DC worked well, but having them outside a vehicle is probably a bad idea because of Rage. I'm sure the Baal Predator is good but mine got immobilized first turn because of an overzealous scout move. BTW, Baal predators scout! How cool is that? Oh, and I like my fast Vindicator very much, thanks.

Fast Vindis: it's cool, but it still doesn't really change the fickle nature of it...I do like them, but they always find reasons to stay out of my lists...

I bought a couple of Space Hulk sets for the Stealers, and to convert the Termies into Ultramarines (building an old-school Tyrannic War force to complement my Behemoth swarm), and looking at Astorath I'm thinking I'll paint him for fun, paint one of my Hulkmarines sets as Blood Angels after all, and throw in a few more units to get a game-worthy force out of it. Whereas I'm very reluctant to use my Nid Codex as anything more than a framework to inspire my hobbycraft until an FAQ resolves all the ambiguousness and hopefully sorts out potential game-breakers, the BA Codex definitely doesn't put me off playing actual games with a collection.

SirRouga wrote:

doubled wrote:Anyone thought about the dread list, cheap libby HQ, some death company, and Dread Dread Dread

I actually made a 2000 point list that had 11 dreadnoughts in it. Granted chances are it won't be worth anything but still something to think about.
Basically it is a Librarian, a 25 man death company, 5 Death Company Dreads, 3 Librarian Dreads, and 3 standard dreads. Eat that Master of the Forge.

Wohhhh!!!

That would be FUN!! I do wonder how effective that would be.....(Libby Dreads are crazy cool but silly).

Elnicko5 wrote:

Honestly- there are toys, but the toys are expensive to the point of prohibition. There is nothing in this codex that I look at and say, "Man, is that broken."

Maybe I read wrong, but doesnt this book have DS transport LR that is also a fast vehical? That strikes me as a touch broken

carmachu wrote:

Elnicko5 wrote:

Honestly- there are toys, but the toys are expensive to the point of prohibition. There is nothing in this codex that I look at and say, "Man, is that broken."

Maybe I read wrong, but doesnt this book have DS transport LR that is also a fast vehical? That strikes me as a touch broken

Yes, you read wrong.

Land Raiders are not fast. Only Rhino Varients are.

carmachu wrote:

Elnicko5 wrote:

Honestly- there are toys, but the toys are expensive to the point of prohibition. There is nothing in this codex that I look at and say, "Man, is that broken."

Maybe I read wrong, but doesnt this book have DS transport LR that is also a fast vehical? That strikes me as a touch broken

The Land Raiders are NOT fast vehicles, they can deep strike BUT they have no protection from mishaps and units inside can not assault and the land raider may shoot one weapon the turn it arrives. However depending on how you think, deep striking a land raider automatically gets the unit closer so does the job of transporting very well or a complete waste since if you scatter the wrong way you are looking at a 250 transport + plus whatever is inside (and most people put their expensive killy stuff in there) up to a mishap roll. Also should note that teleport homers have no effect on a deep striking LR.

SirRouga wrote:Also should note that teleport homers have no effect on a deep striking LR.

Locator Beacons do however.

Given that a DSing Land Raider spends a turn (or more) in Reserve, I suspect that in non-Apoc games, you probably cover more ground moving the Land Raiders FO than DSing them.

If you're assaulting, DSing Land Raiders will hit the enemy DZ on Turn 3, at the earliest. A full turn behind having them roll forward on the ground.

Really, outside Apoc, I can't see the tactical or strategic value of DSing LRs, aside from being able to say that you pulled it off.

Gwar! wrote:

SirRouga wrote:Also should note that teleport homers have no effect on a deep striking LR.

Locator Beacons do however.

Oh yeah, forgot about those but only available to scouts. Getting scouts to live long enough that close to the enemy for that to really matter would be an issue. Through I can see a squad of scout bikers turbo boosting around waiting for the Land Raiders to arrive

SirRouga wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

SirRouga wrote:Also should note that teleport homers have no effect on a deep striking LR.

Locator Beacons do however.

Oh yeah, forgot about those but only available to scouts. Getting scouts to live long enough that close to the enemy for that to really matter would be an issue. Through I can see a squad of scout bikers turbo boosting around waiting for the Land Raiders to arrive

Better yet, throw them in a Land Raider and drive it straight at the enemy...

Can't do that, because scouts do not have access to dedicated transports. LRs are only under dedicated transports in the BA dex.

Since when in 5E can't Scouts steal someone else's ride?

Well yeah AFTER deployment you can. It seemed as if he was implying deepstriking the scouts in a land raider. My bad if that is not the case.

10-step Plan for Guaranteed Deep Striking Land Raider Victory

Army List
1. Buy a Tactical Squad with a Land Raider
2. Buy a Scout Squad with Locator Beacon
3. Spend remaining points on Assault Squads in Land Raiders

Deployment
4. Place ALL Assault Squads in Land Raiders in Reserve
5. Deploy the Tactical Squad with their Land Raider at the front of the DZ with plenty of open space ahead

Turn 1
6. Embark the Scout Squad
7. Blitz the Land Raider Flat Out, pop Smoke!
8. Pray that nobody nukes the Land Raider & Scouts

Turn 2+
9. Roll well on Reserves and have DSing Land Raiders use Scout's Locator Beacon
10. VICTORY!!!

1 Problem there.

LAND RAIDERS ARE NOT FAST.

@double-poster: I never said that a Land Raider was Fast.

"Flat Out" for a Land Raider is 12".

JohnHwangDD wrote:@double-poster: I never said that a Land Raider was Fast.

"Flat Out" for a Land Raider is 12".

No it's not. That's Cruising Speed. Flat out is a speed capable only by Fast Vehicles and is a Distance of between >12" and <=18" (>12" and <=24" for a Fast Skimmer).

The rules lawyer speaks truth. That is RAW.

We get the meaning of your devious plan all the same.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:The rules lawyer speaks truth. That is RAW.

We get the meaning of your devious plan all the same.

No we don't! RaI is known only to the Author! Not untill he issues an Errata can we be sure!

But still, Deep Striking Land Raiders is silly.

A question on DSing LR. Wouldn't an easy way to kill that 700+ death star be to surround it and pop it? I mean mech guard can probally put a chimaera on each side amd have plenty of Meltas to fry it. Thats alot of points gone for the BA player.

Obviously it wont be the case every time depending on the army the BAs are playing against but Im sure we are going to start to hear stories about it soon.

Just my 2 cents

Noobtodagame wrote:A question on DSing LR. Wouldn't an easy way to kill that 700+ death star be to surround it and pop it? I mean mech guard can probally put a chimaera on each side amd have plenty of Meltas to fry it. Thats alot of points gone for the BA player.

Same as if you drive your LR towards the enemy as fast as it'll go. People still do that, because it's often a useful thing to do.

As for the idea that the strategy of DSing LRs is silly and shouldn't be used... I still say it's a very situational strategy. It's like having your LR come in from reserve (which people can do when it's useful, and not do when it's not useful), except that it can come onto the table anywhere that doesn't have much impassable terrain or many models. Yeah, your opponent can make that difficult for you by spreading out their army a great deal, but that isn't always a good idea for other reasons. Given that it's an option the BA don't pay for, a situational potential bonus is still a good thing.

Even if I think the rule itself is silly.

There has to be some scrubalub out there who runs vulkan marines with gobs of hammer terminators and melta guns, and would still manage to lose to deep striking raider rush. I dont know who, but I hope to play him. Hopefully in a tournament (hobby competition if your an e-diagnosed aspie). Itll boost my points.

My take on all of the Blood Angels special characters is that they make the Nightbringer look like a chump [and for most of them that's before they get FNP]. And they're not the most ridiculous part of the codex imho.
I'd love to boo-hoo over it, but almost 50% of the FLGS have already jumped ship to the sparkly vampires so I'd rather just get in some games & try to draw/lose with dignity!

What are you talking about? Blood angels have the worst marine characters in the game.

well, it's just a matter of opinion/experience, but I disagree with you at least as far as Mephiston, Dante & Astorath are concerned...

I'm not saying I'm right & you're wrong, maybe it's the local scene, but I still believe in my previously stated opinion...

Odd seeing some special characters in a Marine codex without Independent Character status but I like the special character design. Powerful but not so much that they become a "requirement", reserved for special games like they should be in my opinion. I hate the "required special character design to play my chapter" design of the marine dex through so take that with a grain of salt.

Hm quick rules question - if a squad is subject to Red Thirst (they rolled a 1 at the start of the game), do characters that join the squad also get furious charge and fearless?

Noisy_Marine wrote:Hm quick rules question - if a squad is subject to Red Thirst (they rolled a 1 at the start of the game), do characters that join the squad also get furious charge and fearless?

Fearless yes as long as he is part of the squad. Furious charge no but the models with it still get the bonus.

I find it hilarious how the fluff has the gene-seed process turn them from scabby desert dwellers into Pretty Marines.

Well I thought that is how it worked, or is what they told me in school all wrong!

Yeah, the article in Index Astartes pretty much said the same thing.

ZF-

How do they explain away Deep Striking Land Raiders?

Blair wrote:How do they explain away Deep Striking Land Raiders?

Dropped from overhead Thunderhawks.

Gwar! wrote:

Blair wrote:How do they explain away Deep Striking Land Raiders?

Dropped from overhead Thunderhawks.

The more I hear about the new Codex the more I think it is a "my toys are shinier than your toys" exercise.

Thunderhawks drop them off, I prefer to think they drove them off the cruiser in orbit because they are that awesome.

For me the codex is just dumb, the fluff is making me cringe because it completely screws with pre existing material and turns it into lame comic book writing.

The rules just make me shake my head, blood talons are possibly the most broken peice of wargear Ive seen in a long time, making the Furioso Ws5 just adds to it. The easy access to feel no pain makes the army twice as durable without any point hikes, in fact they got nothing but point drops, like assault marines that are cheaper then tactical squads, which smells of sales ploy on GWs part to sell the assault marine kit, and they will. There really isnt a down side to take blood angels, they do what every other marine does but better and cheaper.

As for the storm raven Im on the fence with that one, its basically 500+ pts all in one target, but if it lives it'll be the game MVP, and even if it dies if you do it right you wont take any damage on your dread and your standard men wont be too worried because of power armour and feel no pain.

Really what burns me about the codex is they took two of the most devastating elements of war; Durability and Speed and handed it to them without any giveback. This gives any shooting army effectively 1 turn (or 2 if you went first) to do anything about it before it tears them apart. From 1/3 chance of dying to 1/6 against small arms attacks is huge, not to mention giving it to terminators or bikes, something that was thought as "too cheesy" to give to nurgle.

Bah, just backs up the notion that cheap linear no brainer tactic armies are what sells, and the 15 people starting the army in my area can atest to that.

Ravenous D wrote:

For me the codex is just dumb, the fluff is making me cringe because it completely screws with pre existing material and turns it into lame comic book writing.

Did you expect anything else from Matt Ward?

The codex is pretty stupid overall (not overpowered, just incredibly silly and comic-y), but I'm thankful just for the fact that it didn't break the whole game like Ward's DoC book did with WFB.

Terminus wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:

For me the codex is just dumb, the fluff is making me cringe because it completely screws with pre existing material and turns it into lame comic book writing.

Did you expect anything else from Matt Ward?

The codex is pretty stupid overall (not overpowered, just incredibly silly and comic-y), but I'm thankful just for the fact that it didn't break the whole game like Ward's DoC book did with WFB.

It could have been worse, Robin Cruddace could have written it. Then we would have Baals in Squadrons of 4 and Assault Marines without Frags and 3 times the points cost.

They should of just given them multilasers instead of bolters and have flying terminators.

Ravenous D wrote:They should of just given them multilasers instead of bolters and have flying terminators.

Heck, they already got flying Dreadnoughts for crying out loud . Up, up and away!

Ravenous D wrote:The rules just make me shake my head, blood talons are possibly the most broken peice of wargear Ive seen in a long time, making the Furioso Ws5 just adds to it. The easy access to feel no pain makes the army twice as durable without any point hikes, in fact they got nothing but point drops, like assault marines that are cheaper then tactical squads, which smells of sales ploy on GWs part to sell the assault marine kit, and they will. There really isnt a down side to take blood angels, they do what every other marine does but better and cheaper.

I wish people would stop saying that, as it's completely untrue. Space Marines and Blood Angels play very differently, and one is not better than the other (or at the very last such a judgement is very premature). Except for the talons, which are pretty outrageous, nothing you've said is true. FNP is readily available, but tied to 50-100 point models with basic marine stats. Assault Marines are 20 points more before weapon upgrades. The cheaper transport evens the cost out, but the BA will cost at least 10 more after special weapons. You're basically trading combat tactics for Fast on your vehicle (Red Thirst is negligible), and giving up the free special/heavy for the option to buy 2 specials.

Most of the characters suck, DC are very questionable, and their Tacticals and Devastators are pretty lame without combat tactics. As for the Raven, it has the firepower of a Land Raider, but a cost to match and is only AV12. They pay a fair premium for all their gimmicks and toys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:]It could have been worse, Robin Cruddace could have written it. Then we would have Baals in Squadrons of 4 and Assault Marines without Frags and 3 times the points cost.

I disagree, Ward produces way more lemons and cringe-worthy fluff pieces. The IG codex has some really slowed design decisions (mainly cost of Nork and some units, and platoon options), but you still have many effective builds and a lot of variety in every FOC slot.

FNP keeps you from vaping before hitting close combat. With a PF in each squad you don't really need to actually upgrade the guy. He's just a 50pt bubble of awesome.

Not getting heavy weapons will NEVER balance out getting fast vehicles. Ever. Fast predators, your one and only heavy support choice.

The way your crafting the 'totally not OP and codex creep' argument you make standard marines sound like a shooty army... which is true if you work really hard at it. Blood angels can just BE shooty. 4 5 man assault squads in super cheap fast razorbacks, 3 ac/lc fast preds, 2 hb fast baals, and a drop podding furioso with frag cannon (BROH-KEN by the way), in addition to... some cheap libby.

BAM. They assault well, shoot better than Tau, and move better than everyone save Eldar. The hell this isn't Codex Creep.

I hate some parts of the fluff in it(I don't hate Sanguinor as I consider him to be a sort of a Emperor's daemon).BL writers should write the fluff.

Slackermagee wrote: Blood angels can just BE shooty. 4 5 man assault squads in super cheap fast razorbacks, 3 ac/lc fast preds, 2 hb fast baals, and a drop podding furioso with frag cannon (BROH-KEN by the way), in addition to... some cheap libby.

People keep throwing up this bogus netlist. I've played against 6 or 7 iterations of that list already on Vassal, and it performs no better than the similar razor-spam Space Wolves list. Half of it goes poof after one shooting phase.

Ah the obligatory "THE SKY IS FALLING" that accompanies a new 'dex. Remember when the space wolves were released, the nerd rage was almost palpable. I'm picking up the codex on friday but from what i've seen and heard about the 'dex its not nearly as bad as what people are making it out to be. My worst complaint about the codex is the thunder thighs on the sanguinary priest on the cover.

Not to be obtuse, but what IS the generic shooty C:SM list that is better than what BA can do? I'm genuinely curious.

Why is it that useless writers like Ward keep writing new codices? I would've fired Ward right after he screwed up Fantasy with the Demon army book.

Gornall:

Consider two Tactical Squads. One is Ultramarines, and the other is Blood Angels. The Blood Angels Squad suffers from the Red Thirst.

So Tactical Squad A has And They Shall Know No Fear and Combat Tacts, while Tactical Squad B has Fearless and Furious Charge. B is better on the charge, A is better if charged. Remember the Furious Charge has no effect unless the unit with it charges, and Fearless means that the unit automatically suffers No Retreat when it loses combat, rather than if it loses combat, does not pass its morale check, and gets caught by a Sweeping Advance.

Moreover a unit with Combat Tactics, in addition to And They Shall Know No Fear, can avoid charges, escape pinning, and retreat in the face of heavy fire.

Likewise a unit with Fearless will never Fall Back, cannot be escorted off the table, and will never be pinned.

It seems to me that a Codex: Space Marine list is better at absorbing counter-attacks by the enemy, while a Codex: Blood Angels list is better at attacking the enemy.

Combat Tactics is nice and all but a lot can go wrong if you aren't careful. There is a reason there are so many people that are more than willing to trade in combat tactics for some other ability. Automatically failing a morale test is also no help at all when you are trying to hold an objective. A fearless unit sitting on an objective means you have to kill all of them or contest it, you can't just make them fall back.

Also, using a blood angel tactical squad makes sense in the example for a direct comparison, however most Blood Angel players I think will opt for Assault Squads over tactical squads. A tactical squad with fearless and furious charge is bit scary, an assault squad with the same can be outright deadly.

Gwar! wrote:

Blair wrote:How do they explain away Deep Striking Land Raiders?

Dropped from overhead Thunderhawks.

What people really mean to complain about is "Then why doesn't everybody throw their land raiders out of the plane/Thunderhawk?"

solkan wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Blair wrote:How do they explain away Deep Striking Land Raiders?

Dropped from overhead Thunderhawks.

What people really mean to complain about is "Then why doesn't everybody throw their land raiders out of the plane/Thunderhawk?"

Because they don't need to keep up with Souped up Rhinos.

Speaking of the deep striking land raider...
I do love the fact that if a Land Raider that was dropped from a thunderhawk lands on a Gretchin, the land raider is the one that might end up destroyed

SirRouga:

Combat Tactics does demand that the player knows what they're doing, whereas Fearless is pretty much an auto-pilot rule like Rage. Fearless units aren't actually that hard to shift from objectives because of No Retreat. In particular they're vulnerable to assault units like Assault Terminators whose inability to engage in a Sweeping Advance is irrelevant against troops that won't Fall Back.

On a side note, with my Tyranid army I'm increasingly trying to start the turn with my units within Synapse and then moving them out of synapse so that they don't suffer from No Retreat if/when charged, and they can Fall Back into Syanpse and rally automatically.

Certainly an Assault Squad with two special weapons, Furious Charge, and Fearless is great for capturing objectives. Holding them is a problem though, because people can just shoot you off them if you can't shoot back effectively, and can capture them back if you don't have the stand-off firepower to stop their counter-assault.

Let's suppose that Assault Squad was charged by a Space Marine Dreadnought. Maybe they have a Power Fist to let them hurt it, maybe they don't. But their special weapons have been rendered ineffective, and they'll take No Retreat wounds to compound the one or two that the Dreadnought manages to inflict by itself. A Tactical Squad with Combat Tactics will at least have a chance to disengage from the Dreadnought to use its special and Heavy Weapon.

Nurglitch:

Yes combat tactics requires the player to know what they are doing but it comes with some extreme risk. Sure you can fall back from dreads and stuff but a bad roll for fallback distance may keep that dread too close for the squad to regroup and then they run the risk of being walked off the table or other setups. Plus what is an assault squad doing engaging with a dread in the first place, jump packs alone should prevent that one. Not saying that doesn't happen through but still.

Yeah assault squads aren't the greatest at holding objective, that why they should be assaulting until the last turn or two then move it towards the objections. And even if that assault squad sits to hold the objective, sure your army can fire on them but what do you think the rest of the Blood Angels are doing?

I'm not saying combat tactics is useless, it has it moments. But overall there are better options unless you end up using combat tactics multiple times in every game, I mean if you only use it once or twice in a game then it may not be worth it. But regardless, that is something more up to the player than anything I guess.

The Unending wrote:Ah the obligatory "THE SKY IS FALLING" that accompanies a new 'dex. Remember when the space wolves were released, the nerd rage was almost palpable. I'm picking up the codex on friday but from what i've seen and heard about the 'dex its not nearly as bad as what people are making it out to be. My worst complaint about the codex is the thunder thighs on the sanguinary priest on the cover.

This is truth... Seems like Dakka (and probably the rest of the gaming interwebs for that matter) goes through this with every new codex. All the folks complaining about how much "creep" there is in the Codex really ought to sit down and actually try to build lists with it. Yes, there are definitely some powerful combinations in there. But that's not true of any of the recent codecies? When you actually start playing around with lists, you rapidly find that there are some pretty tough decisions to make and all the cool toys that people are complaining about don't really all fit into a list very well. The points just run out too fast...

There look, to me at least, to be about two possible competative lists with C:BA, and neither of them *really* look like they'll threaten the Leaf Blower or other top lists. They either rely too much on W1 IC's or else lack the range and durability to take on serious gun lines. Maybe someone will be able to prove that wrong, but I just don't see anything in the 'Dex that really threatens to overturn the current order.

Sure there's some monumentally stupid stuff in the 'Dex, but what are you gonna do? It's GW...

Valete,

JohnS

@cygnnus: I get your point but I think blood angels are finally breaking out of that "go mech or go home" trend that is everywhere in 40k, but time will tell won't it.

Terminus wrote:I find it hilarious how the fluff has the gene-seed process turn them from scabby desert dwellers into Pretty Marines.

As others have pointed out, that fluff is pretty much copy pasted from the 2nd edition codex. I didn't even bother to read it.

Ravenous D wrote:Thunderhawks drop them off, I prefer to think they drove them off the cruiser in orbit because they are that awesome.

For me the codex is just dumb, the fluff is making me cringe because it completely screws with pre existing material and turns it into lame comic book writing.

The rules just make me shake my head, blood talons are possibly the most broken peice of wargear Ive seen in a long time, making the Furioso Ws5 just adds to it. The easy access to feel no pain makes the army twice as durable without any point hikes, in fact they got nothing but point drops, like assault marines that are cheaper then tactical squads, which smells of sales ploy on GWs part to sell the assault marine kit, and they will. There really isnt a down side to take blood angels, they do what every other marine does but better and cheaper.

As for the storm raven Im on the fence with that one, its basically 500+ pts all in one target, but if it lives it'll be the game MVP, and even if it dies if you do it right you wont take any damage on your dread and your standard men wont be too worried because of power armour and feel no pain.

Really what burns me about the codex is they took two of the most devastating elements of war; Durability and Speed and handed it to them without any giveback. This gives any shooting army effectively 1 turn (or 2 if you went first) to do anything about it before it tears them apart. From 1/3 chance of dying to 1/6 against small arms attacks is huge, not to mention giving it to terminators or bikes, something that was thought as "too cheesy" to give to nurgle.

Bah, just backs up the notion that cheap linear no brainer tactic armies are what sells, and the 15 people starting the army in my area can atest to that.

I think the adding of the toys is balanced, and there is giveback. You're going to have to sacrifice a meltagun in at least one of your assault squads to fit the S Priest in the rhino, and you're adding a single wound IC to the squad to get your 6" bubble. So, instead of the rhino and squad being two KP's, it's three. That self same bubble forces you to advance as a group to maximize the Priest's benefits. So, you've decreased fire power, limited your tactics and also paid more points to maximize your cool benefits. (Because you need to pay at least 50 for that 1 wound priest who can be picked out in CC). Maybe it's time to start taking a vindicare assassin again?

If you can't find a way to stall a rhino convoy, perhaps its time to re-think your army list? Mech seems to be the dominant list type right now.

SirRouga wrote:Combat Tactics is nice and all but a lot can go wrong if you aren't careful. There is a reason there are so many people that are more than willing to trade in combat tactics for some other ability. Automatically failing a morale test is also no help at all when you are trying to hold an objective. A fearless unit sitting on an objective means you have to kill all of them or contest it, you can't just make them fall back.

Also, using a blood angel tactical squad makes sense in the example for a direct comparison, however most Blood Angel players I think will opt for Assault Squads over tactical squads. A tactical squad with fearless and furious charge is bit scary, an assault squad with the same can be outright deadly.

Combat tactics is underrated, and it's loss is a huge blow.

The Unending wrote:@cygnnus: I get your point but I think blood angels are finally breaking out of that "go mech or go home" trend that is everywhere in 40k, but time will tell won't it.

Isn't that a good thing? I personally am quite tired of all the Mech lists... Seemed like half of my games at Adepticon were variations on the theme of "how do I get all those enemy models out of their transports...". Not to say, of course, that I was completely innocent of it myself (with a 3 Rhino list in the team tourney).

But watching army after army (IG, Marine, Tau) stay holed up in their transports just gets old after a while. If C:BA makes a jump pack list viable, then I'm a seriously happy person indeed!

C:SW spawned not a few Thunder Wolf Cavalry lists. I certainly hope C:BA can create some other viable options!

Valete,

JohnS

I just hope that the next new marine list comes out soon, so all the green, blue, and black painted marines can jump onto that bandwagon.

We saw the exact same thing with the space wolf codex, and I ridiculed it then as well.

Definetly overpowered.
If vanilla SM is a normal not overpowered codex, than BA is really overpowered.
Because BA can take/use everything from SM chapter (even sternguard vets) and BA has more options than vanilla SM. Forget about the crappy legion of damned.
Thunderfire cannon is not that good anyway.
Land speeder stroms etc has betters in BA codex....

Gunship, Librarian dreadnought, Sang. guard, furious dreadnought bla bla bla....

Take the sanguinory guard. It costs as much as a terminator. Now make some calculations. Their CCW is like lightning claw (cant have bonus attack but can reroll);
Now take the SM codex and make the calculation for points (below) see the result
Lightning Claw + artificier armor + storm bolter + veteran = Terminator + veteran points. So if you take a sanguinary guard, you just pay for the equipment and veteran is for freee.

Whatever, there are tons of examples like that. Take devastator weapon costs,
Furioso dreadnought has same armor with ironclad dreadnought yet it has better WS and it is a troop choice for gods sake. And it is cheaper . Lets not forget 6" scattering deepstrike and feel no pain for all

The only downside of BA is: they have so many awesome choices which will negate the ability of BA players choosing a good army list . They will have a hard time to form an army list


If SM codex is normal, BA is definitly overpowered. Now I wonder, how will the CSM codex be? I think all of CSM will have 2+ invulnerable armor saves to get on top of it.

Consider Ultramarine Devastators and Blood Angel Devastators. The Blood Angels are cheaper. Cool, right? They're cheaper because they can't use Combat Tactics to exit combat and 1/6 games they'll be Fearless with Furious Charge, which is awesome until they get charged by something like Assault Terminators.

5 Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields assault the Devastators, have 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.23 wounds, or 6 dead Devastators. Supposing the Devastators lose by 6, then on average 2 more Blood Angels Devastators will be lost to the Red Thirst and No Retreat! The Blood Angels will then get wiped on their own turn providing cover for the Assault Terminators.

The Ultramarine Devastators will simply use Combat Tactics to Fall Back, use And They Shall Know No Fear to automatically* Rally, and then use And They Shall Know No Fear to turn the surviving four Heavy Weapons on the Terminators.

*Beyond 6", etc

The Furioso is not a troop choice.

So far, this thread has been a cyclical iteration of:

"OMG the codex is overpowered in so many ways!"
"They haven't been that bad so far in actual games."
"But they have this and that and deep striking land raiders!"
"All that crap is either a gimmick, fairly priced, or more often than not, nothing like you say it is."
"OMG the Blood Angels are so overpowered!"

Et. al. ad nauseum.

OMG what an incredible tactic to save your devastator squad. Your devastator squad will become fearless 1/6 but will face terminators 1/60. Save your breath.

OMG furioso dreadnoughts are not troop chocies? Found a fault in my post? Good for you

Nobody here can explain how the hell BA has nearly everything SM can offer and even more. I saw 2 guys already (here in these forums) who will use BA codex for their SM army.
Forget man, it is about merchandise. They are trying to sell their new toys thats all

The Unending wrote:@cygnnus: I get your point but I think blood angels are finally breaking out of that "go mech or go home" trend that is everywhere in 40k, but time will tell won't it.

Not a chance..all those fast moving tanks ENSURE that mech is still the dominant paradigm.

Therein lies the distinction. Marines have variants such as Vulkan and all bike, or at their most vanilla can put a LOT of very good troops on the ground (the tactical marine is EXTREMELY underestimated by the armchair general interwebz hive mind).

Blood Angels have a bunch of fancy special rules and builds, but they pay points for all of those things. Why do you try playing the book yourself, or even try to make some of these super lists you're so afraid of, before subjecting us to your histrionics?

I don't think the new Blood Angel codex is even in the top 3 armies out there. But it is still better than the average codex, of course that isn't really that much of a surprise. The codex is just "above average", nothing more or less in my opinion.

With Assault Squads getting discounts on transports, it is very easy to go mechanized with the Blood Angels if you want to. I still want to try out an all jump infantry army myself through.

Terminus wrote:
Why do you try playing the book yourself, or even try to make some of these super lists you're so afraid of, before subjecting us to your histrionics?

Oh man, I am not afraid of their book or stuff. Don't you get it? Everybody wants to see that their army different in some ways. If you look from some other players point of view, space puppies are stronger than SM. But from my point of view, they are different. They are different most of the time. They don't have my veterans, they don't have 13 armor dreadnought, they don't have options like me. See? They are different.
But BA is not different. They have eveything my army can offer and even more. Combat tactics is a good tactic but it is not the god of all the tactics. Imagine Crimson Fists, Imperial fists, raven guard who don't use that. I am not talking about their units being better and so on.
Imagine it like this: The first thing I wanted to see was the ability to add feel no pain to my honour guard... Whoosst! BA has it.
"hmmm it would be godly if Ironclad has better WS"... Whooossst! BA has it.
"Why can't my assault squads have melta-gun"... Tralalala! BA has it.
"God! instead of adding 3 heavy weapons to devastator squad I can buy a tac squad, these are too expensive"... BANG! BA has it cheaper.
"2d6" scatter is not reliable to deepstrike. It is too dangerous as I saw my assault squad far away from the point I wanted so many times"... BOOM! BA is d6"
"why can't my command squad, or honour guard have jump packs?" Squash! BA has it.
"woaw my sternguard vet squad is some special unit for SM" DANG! BA has it.

Imagine Raven guard... Why are they on SM codex which is not made for deepstriking or assaulting or jump infantry when you read the BA codex. BAM! If I had a raven guard army, I was already using their codex.

See?

They pay for all of those things, making for smaller, more compact armies.

They are significantly more assault oriented, relying on vehicles to do most of their shooting.

Terminus wrote:They pay for all of those things, making for smaller, more compact armies.

They are significantly more assault oriented, relying on vehicles to do most of their shooting.

What do you mean?

According to the abilities and point costs for shooty units SM vs BA:

Tac squad - SAME
Scout squad - SAME
Sternguard vets - SAME
Terminator squad - SAME
Devastator Squad - SAME (BA cheaper)
Dreadnought - SAME
Land Speeder - SAME
Bike Squad - SAME
Attack Bike - SAME
Land Raider - SAME
Predator - BA is 10 pts more but fast
Vindicator - BA is 30 pts more but fast (which is very good as being fast is godly for vindicator imho)
Whirlwind - BA is 5 pts more but fast (okay for whirlwind being fast is not important so it sucks for 5 points)
Thunderfire cannon - BA don't have it but even I don't have it in my SM army
Baal predator - SM don't have it so I can't call if it is a good or bad unit.

Take vanguard veteran
Heroic intervention : For SM it is crappy because you scatter 2d6" which make you chances to use their ability very low. For BA, it is not that crappy.
Legion of the damned: What are they?

How come they are worse in shooting? Stop them from taking assault squads and they can fire as much as a normal SM will do. Even when I am shooting I put a unit to deal with CC. BA can do it far more better.
Take the best SM army you imagine and replace the crappy CC unit with something from BA how is that?

God quit your whining. The next new bandwagon will be out soon enough, so save some ZOMG for that, will ya? Got some marine envy there?

So they have some better stuff now. I'm sure when 5th edition kicked over, a lot of folks freaked out at the new SM codex.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:God quit your whining. The next new bandwagon will be out soon enough, so save some ZOMG for that, will ya? Got some marine envy there?

So they have some better stuff now. I'm sure when 5th edition kicked over, a lot of folks freaked out at the new SM codex.

The Sons of Baal (BA codex): 7000+ Points

That explains alot

Minci wrote:

Take the sanguinory guard. It costs as much as a terminator. Now make some calculations. Their CCW is like lightning claw (cant have bonus attack but can reroll);
Now take the SM codex and make the calculation for points (below) see the result
Lightning Claw + artificier armor + storm bolter + veteran = Terminator + veteran points. So if you take a sanguinary guard, you just pay for the equipment and veteran is for freee.

That's just flat out wrong... The Glaive Encarmine is inferior to a single lightning claw, much less a pair of them. Being able to reroll *one* to-hit roll is not as effective as being able to re-roll *all* failed to-wound rolls.

Sanquinary Guard have speed, and their funky stormbolters going for them, but Assault Terminators hit much harder in assault and are tougher. Sanguinary Guard are A2, with no ability (short of a banner) to get more attacks. Assault Terminators (which I'm assuming you're comparing the Guard with in the above) come out at A3 base. Lightning Claws, especially in a pair, are much better close combat weapons. And then there's the Termie's Inv save.

Regardless of any of the above, Sanguinary Guard are a marginal unit at best anyway. In the current era they just don't make the top tier.

Valete,

JohnS

cygnnus wrote:

Minci wrote:

Take the sanguinory guard. It costs as much as a terminator. Now make some calculations. Their CCW is like lightning claw (cant have bonus attack but can reroll);
Now take the SM codex and make the calculation for points (below) see the result
Lightning Claw + artificier armor + storm bolter + veteran = Terminator + veteran points. So if you take a sanguinary guard, you just pay for the equipment and veteran is for freee.

That's just flat out wrong... The Glaive Encarmine is inferior to a single lightning claw, much less a pair of them. Being able to reroll *one* to-hit roll is not as effective as being able to re-roll *all* failed to-wound rolls.

Sanquinary Guard have speed, and their funky stormbolters going for them, but Assault Terminators hit much harder in assault and are tougher. Sanguinary Guard are A2, with no ability (short of a banner) to get more attacks. Assault Terminators (which I'm assuming you're comparing the Guard with in the above) come out at A3 base. Lightning Claws, especially in a pair, are much better close combat weapons. And then there's the Termie's Inv save.

Regardless of any of the above, Sanguinary Guard are a marginal unit at best anyway. In the current era they just don't make the top tier.

Valete,

JohnS

I didnt compare them. I can't write the point costs openly in the forum so I wrote the similar costs for them. I didn't compare guards vs terminator or glaive vs lightning claws. I just made a math equation....

But how did you understand that much wrong? Send me the thing you are smoking

BA are tough on the charge, and have some eavy hitters. Lure them in with a unit then waste them wit fire or counter charge. Not any thougher to be than SW.

Minci wrote:

cygnnus wrote:

Minci wrote:

Take the sanguinory guard. It costs as much as a terminator. Now make some calculations. Their CCW is like lightning claw (cant have bonus attack but can reroll);
Now take the SM codex and make the calculation for points (below) see the result
Lightning Claw + artificier armor + storm bolter + veteran = Terminator + veteran points. So if you take a sanguinary guard, you just pay for the equipment and veteran is for freee.

That's just flat out wrong... The Glaive Encarmine is inferior to a single lightning claw, much less a pair of them. Being able to reroll *one* to-hit roll is not as effective as being able to re-roll *all* failed to-wound rolls.

Sanquinary Guard have speed, and their funky stormbolters going for them, but Assault Terminators hit much harder in assault and are tougher. Sanguinary Guard are A2, with no ability (short of a banner) to get more attacks. Assault Terminators (which I'm assuming you're comparing the Guard with in the above) come out at A3 base. Lightning Claws, especially in a pair, are much better close combat weapons. And then there's the Termie's Inv save.

Regardless of any of the above, Sanguinary Guard are a marginal unit at best anyway. In the current era they just don't make the top tier.

Valete,

JohnS

I didnt compare them. I can't write the point costs openly in the forum so I wrote the similar costs for them. I didn't compare guards vs terminator or glaive vs lightning claws. I just made a math equation....

But how did you understand that much wrong? Send me the thing you are smoking

You didn't? And I quote:

"Their CCW is like lightning claw (cant have bonus attack but can reroll);"

QED.

I'd suggest toning down the attitude a bit. For a new poster here, you're not really doing yourself many favors, nor working very well on your credibility.

You don't like C:BA. I think we all got it. Now we can move on...

Valete,

JohnS

Terminus wrote:The Furioso is not a troop choice.

So far, this thread has been a cyclical iteration of:

"OMG the codex is overpowered in so many ways!"
"They haven't been that bad so far in actual games."
"But they have this and that and deep striking land raiders!"
"All that crap is either a gimmick, fairly priced, or more often than not, nothing like you say it is."
"OMG the Blood Angels are so overpowered!"

Et. al. ad nauseum.

You just said everything I wanted to say.

In my test games it hasn't been over the top.

they don't seem overpowered to me, they seem about average.

How does everyone like the Honour Guard?

And how to tool them up the most efficient way? Jump packs, chapter banner, blood champion, which weapons, which stuff should they not get, etc?

Minci wrote:

Terminus wrote:
Why do you try playing the book yourself, or even try to make some of these super lists you're so afraid of, before subjecting us to your histrionics?

Oh man, I am not afraid of their book or stuff. Don't you get it? Everybody wants to see that their army different in some ways. If you look from some other players point of view, space puppies are stronger than SM. But from my point of view, they are different. They are different most of the time. They don't have my veterans, they don't have 13 armor dreadnought, they don't have options like me. See? They are different.
But BA is not different. They have eveything my army can offer and even more. Combat tactics is a good tactic but it is not the god of all the tactics. Imagine Crimson Fists, Imperial fists, raven guard who don't use that. I am not talking about their units being better and so on.
Imagine it like this: The first thing I wanted to see was the ability to add feel no pain to my honour guard... Whoosst! BA has it.
"hmmm it would be godly if Ironclad has better WS"... Whooossst! BA has it.
"Why can't my assault squads have melta-gun"... Tralalala! BA has it.
"God! instead of adding 3 heavy weapons to devastator squad I can buy a tac squad, these are too expensive"... BANG! BA has it cheaper.
"2d6" scatter is not reliable to deepstrike. It is too dangerous as I saw my assault squad far away from the point I wanted so many times"... BOOM! BA is d6"
"why can't my command squad, or honour guard have jump packs?" Squash! BA has it.
"woaw my sternguard vet squad is some special unit for SM" DANG! BA has it.

Imagine Raven guard... Why are they on SM codex which is not made for deepstriking or assaulting or jump infantry when you read the BA codex. BAM! If I had a raven guard army, I was already using their codex.

See?

A few points.

Blood Angels were the frist Chapter to have Dreads with two DCCW's, then the Almighty Ultras got it but better with AV13.
Blood Angels Honor Guard has always had Jump Packs (That's there bag man)
Don't blame the Blood Angels because GW over priced Dev heavy Weapons and then realized it.
Ultra's can use Heroic Intervention easily. It's called a Locator Beacon on a Drop pod. You know the thing than comes in on turn one and does not scatter that bad allowing the Vanguard to come in where you want them.

Combat tactis can be good, but what makes C:SM so good is the Special characters that swap Combat tactics for something better (Vulkan anyone?) Also you have the ability to change up your FOC a little. You can have bike squads as both Troops and Fast Attack. We only have Assualt squads as troops, and a pred in the fast attack slot.
As for the Feel no Pain, yo pay for those, and to give it to the other units you give up an Elite slot which is full of good choices, and give up 1-3 kill points. Yeah that sounds about fair. Also one thing C:SM has over C:BA is you know exactly what your units have when you build your list. We can only hope that our units gets to take advantage of our Red Thrist, which unless you take an expensive HQ you almost get nothing for it. We are basicly 4th Ed Ultras in that regard.

C:SM is not that bad.

What the complaining about seems to be that blood angels have better assault squads and dreadnoughts then regular marines, big fething surprise. Its always been that way. You can tell how short some of these people have been playing by their reaction to blood angel assault being strong.

The characters are significantly worse then C:SM ones, which are the strongest marine characters. Vulkan or Lysander can match any of the BA characters in assault, point for point. Mephiston is cool, but if someone has eldrad on the field he wont get much done. Sanguinor is decent, but way way overpriced. And 3 wounds isnt particularly tough.

Its a solid codex, but nothing in it is overpowering. Space wolves are significantly better. The people who should complain are the xenos players, not the marine players, who with every other book being a new marine codex have nothing to complain about. BAAAW the new marine book looks overpowered compared to the old one, I still havent found a way to win with C:SM. The new nid book was hideously underwhelming. Dark eldar and necrons need new books. Dark eldar are reduced to spamming lances and tanks as their only competitive army build, and necrons just suck. Tau and eldar are pretty poop, both have to buy what are now overpriced transports to keep troops alive. Troops that are so weak they have nothing to do but take objectives last turn.
Look at this.
10 grey hunters, 2 melta guns, mark of the wulfen in a rhino-195
10 BA assault marines, 2 melta guns, power fist, in a rhino-240
10 tac marines, plasma cannon, melta gun, fist/combi melta sergeant in a rhino-255
the first unit is a solid do anything choice. The second is a very good up close unit, and the third is a versatile shoot/objective taker. All these units can hurt people, and take objectives. Now look at this.

10 guardians with shuriken cannon in wave serpent with lances- 230
The serpent might blow up a tank, but it has less chance then any of the above units. It is more survivable, but costs 4 times what a rhino does. And the guardians inside? Well if I cast doom they might kill a squad of trukk boyz or a small gaunt unit.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:

What the complaining about seems to be that blood angels have better assault squads and dreadnoughts then regular marines, big surprise. Its always been that way. You can tell how short some of these people have been playing by their reaction to blood angel assault being strong.

Exactly. People like Minci react to their ignorance with fear... a very typical human reaction. When the next codex comes out, he'll be running around as if there is a fire all over again.

I think I agree with the sentiment that it's not the Imperial codices being overpowered- as they're fairly balanced against each other... it's that some of the new xenos and of course all of the old xenos codices are terribly underpowered.

Mech style lists are so popular because infantry are very squishy... if you're not MEq or better, get your arse inside the tank!
This could've been easily countered by giving the armies with squishy troops some kind of shielding/power to give cover.
They did it for Tyranids in the Venomthrope, but then Space Wolves and Blood Angels got it too when they truly did not need it as bad.

Minci wrote:

Terminus wrote:They pay for all of those things, making for smaller, more compact armies.

BA don't have:
- Legion of the Damned
- Ironclad Dread
- Bikes as Troops
- Thunderfire cannon

SM don't have:
- Death Company
- Furioso Dread
- JPs as Troops
- Baal predator
- Stormraven

BA pay more for Fast:
- Predator +10 pts
- Vindicator +30 pts
- Whirlwind+5 pts

Vanguard Veteran: For SM it is crappy

Take the best SM army you imagine and replace the crappy CC unit with something from BA how is that?

Fixed the list.

For SM, it is crappy because SM are supposed to be crappy at Assault. It's also why SM Assaults are Fast, not Troops. SM's designed-in weakness is HtH.

The best SM army I can imagine doesn't take any CC units precisely because they are deliberately overpriced (e.g. Vanguard), or non-Scoring (Assault Marines). It's not how the SM army is designed, and as a result, GW penalizes players for taking CC units. The SM army is designed around Bolter Marines in Transports, and the uber version of SM takes Sternguard as Troops in undercosted Rhinos or Pods.

Yes, you could field similar armies using SM and BA Codices. BT, CSM, DA & SW, too. You'd end up with a number of 2Eish bland, underperforming armies that don't leverage the advantages of their armies, and are often hindered by Special Rules that would be at cross-purposes from the way the army was designed. It's not 2nd Edition anymore. Armies differ by more than their paint job, and thankfully so.

Really, I think you're the kind of guy that complains that hammers suck as screwdrivers (because it's technically possible to hammer a screw into board), and that chisels are overpowered compared to screwdrivers (because they're sharper and more precise at cutting wood).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Valhallan42nd wrote:In my test games it hasn't been over the top.

children of filth wrote:they don't seem overpowered to me, they seem about average.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Its a solid codex, but nothing in it is overpowering.

It almost suggests that GW did some playtesting?

JohnHwangDD wrote:It almost suggests that GW did some playtesting?

Lies and heresy!

*cough*

olympia wrote:

The Unending wrote:@cygnnus: I get your point but I think blood angels are finally breaking out of that "go mech or go home" trend that is everywhere in 40k, but time will tell won't it.

Not a chance..all those fast moving tanks ENSURE that mech is still the dominant paradigm.

I don't know. I'm looking through the blood angels codex and a jump pack army(not necessarily a pure one) is lookin' preettty viable. Mech is still dominant but there are some cracks starting in the ivory tower.

Gornall wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:It almost suggests that GW did some playtesting?

Lies and heresy!

embrace change

My feeling is that this will turn out like seer councils versus seer councils on bikes. Darn good when you take a transport, but the jump pack army has irremovable mobility, that will make it a better choice, in relation to the jetbikes.

Definetly good, but not OTT. The best thing about the entire codex is the Sang. priests. They will change the metagame by reducing the value of weight of attacks to kill things, and will ensure that you need a CC unit to be competetive, in order to assasinate said FNP/FC bubble of doom.

Just my views, they are probably wrong.

Also, Memphy is not all that good. if my 1000pt Ork list cantains enough firepower to kill him in one turn, he is not so fantastic.

Take him at 500pts to make your opponent cry

It has got interesting options in the New Blood-Angels codex, is it over-powered? No because we always find faults in the codex and ways to beat the new guys. I really like the baal predator and the flame-storm cannon, although the cannon is too short and flames your own tank and apparently your not allowed to do that. But in the end the codex is awsome and all you blood angel players should be proud.

The BA codex is not being accepted well in my area.

A) no one plays them
B) everyone looks at their rules and is like 'wtf'


The thing about them is that they have so much of everything, that really the weaknesses (I am admitting they have them) are not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Terrible characters mean little to some people that barely take advantage of the HQ section at all. And, it's not like their HQ slot is lacking, great Librarians that dwarf their C:SM brothers is still something to look at.

Point costs for their vehicles are negligible at best. Considering, 90% of C:SM, CSM, SW, BT, DA etc. players would gladly pay the points to have their Rhino chassis be fast. Point costs of troops aren't a huge deal either, considering you get the discount on transports with the removal of jump packs on Assault Marines, it all balances out.

I think "overpowered" is a bit drastic when describing this codex. 'Poorly designed', and 'stretched imagination' is perhaps a better tag to give it. The ONLY thing I will say about this book being remotely OP is the FNP bubbles that these incredibly cheap Priests give. I don't think him chillin' with ASMs or Tactical Marines is a big deal, it's when he starts going around Mephiston, or Terminators, that it becomes a bit ridiculous. But, you get what you pay for I guess, and power weapons will still kill everyone. So, keep your Null Zone around.

And, MY first impressions of this book is 'try hard'. They tried so hard to have this book be 'different' and while succeeding (I suppose) they have made some pretty silly rules, along with some pretty good ones (that should belong to all SM chapters). Bad rule example: Deep striking LRs. Good rule example: remove jump packs for cheap transports.

Finally, while I am not defending any whining going on here, you have to sympathize with some of these people here. Yeah they are going to complain about BA having everything (that really counts) that C:SM have but more, and why shouldn't they? They do. But I just don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be. But just remember, some people want to play their armies and not be losing games simply because they don't want to pick up the newest Marine codex, but blaming a codex for a loss (unless your 'Crons or DH) is silly.

Anyway, peace.

oni wrote:I've not yet read the codex, but my impressions are that it's somewhat balanced. That aside...

What I don't like about what I've heard:

1) Deep striking landraiders is epically slowed.
2) Magna-Crapple or whatever it's called = massive game design FAIL!
3) The stormraven should have just been a freekin' Thunderhawk.
4) Librarian dreadnoughts... are you freekin' kidding me? LAME!

The writer needs punched in the face for his momentary lapse in good judgement and bout of idiocy.

I believe this codex will continue to be received badly not because it's 'over powered', but rather it give the Blood Angels 'toys' and abilities that were completely unheard of in the 40K universe until now. It's different and not a good different, but a very strange different.

I finally got around to picking up the codex tonight and I stand by my original comments. The Magna-Grapple, thankfully, isn't as much of a fail as I had come to expect. There's provisions to make it rather hard for it to drag a LR or other heavily armoured vehicle and only has a 12" range.

I think what we got here is a failure to communicate. We got different definitions of over-powered, ranging from "rather unfair" to "extremely game-breaking". The chicken-littles and munchkins are not helping.

A deep striking landb raider is not that big a deal, 9 times out of ten the clear ground where you want to land the thing you would reach by turn 2 or 3 anyways.

kaptaink wrote:The BA codex is not being accepted well in my area.

A) no one plays them
B) everyone looks at their rules and is like 'wtf'


The thing about them is that they have so much of everything, that really the weaknesses (I am admitting they have them) are not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Terrible characters mean little to some people that barely take advantage of the HQ section at all. And, it's not like their HQ slot is lacking, great Librarians that dwarf their C:SM brothers is still something to look at.

Point costs for their vehicles are negligible at best. Considering, 90% of C:SM, CSM, SW, BT, DA etc. players would gladly pay the points to have their Rhino chassis be fast. Point costs of troops aren't a huge deal either, considering you get the discount on transports with the removal of jump packs on Assault Marines, it all balances out.

I think "overpowered" is a bit drastic when describing this codex. 'Poorly designed', and 'stretched imagination' is perhaps a better tag to give it. The ONLY thing I will say about this book being remotely OP is the FNP bubbles that these incredibly cheap Priests give. I don't think him chillin' with ASMs or Tactical Marines is a big deal, it's when he starts going around Mephiston, or Terminators, that it becomes a bit ridiculous. But, you get what you pay for I guess, and power weapons will still kill everyone. So, keep your Null Zone around.

And, MY first impressions of this book is 'try hard'. They tried so hard to have this book be 'different' and while succeeding (I suppose) they have made some pretty silly rules, along with some pretty good ones (that should belong to all SM chapters). Bad rule example: Deep striking LRs. Good rule example: remove jump packs for cheap transports.

Finally, while I am not defending any whining going on here, you have to sympathize with some of these people here. Yeah they are going to complain about BA having everything (that really counts) that C:SM have but more, and why shouldn't they? They do. But I just don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be. But just remember, some people want to play their armies and not be losing games simply because they don't want to pick up the newest Marine codex, but blaming a codex for a loss (unless your 'Crons or DH) is silly.

Anyway, peace.

QFT

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. It's not that they are OP per se but badly designed. If the book was a bit more stream lined with some of the craziness and synergy held in place, we wouldn't be having this discussion (except maybe a classic new codex worry thread which I believe this is not). Essentially the book appears to have too much synergy and appears to be able to play any style of list and do it well (more play testing will essentially be needed to fully break this down on a mathhammer level). While point costs and the gimmicky nature of the dex appear to have held most things in place (some people think they are going to be crushed by an unstoppable wall of FNP termies, jump packs and dreads but a gimmicky list like that would be tiny and easy to beat), the synergy sticks in my opinion. The fully "cheesy" BA list is also yet to be discovered.

Also I definitely agree about sanguinary priests being a bit OP due to the numerous amount of synergy possibilities. They essentially turn anything into highly effective Plague Marine + Khorne Bezerker hybrids. Personally I believe Sanguinary priests should only apply 1 of the 2 bonuses and not both (on an additional purchase cost basis for whichever bonus the player wants their priest to give). Either that or limit the different types of units the bonuses can apply to (to limit scarey FNP deathstar lists).

All I have to say is that space marine players of all people have no right to complain about new codexs. Its this stupid system of always updating marines that keeps the xenos races from getting books often/decent books.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:All I have to say is that space marine players of all people have no right to complain about new codexs. Its this stupid system of always updating marines that keeps the xenos races from getting books often/decent books.

Which is my huge issue with this game as a whole. Other games are obviously made to make money, but it seems like they push this game so hard to make money any possible way. Maybe I am just naive, but I feel like there should be some sort of loyalty to your player base that doesn't really exist with GW.

Hell, they can't take the time to FAQ the 'Nid codex that has how many issues? Or, they can't break their cycle of Marine codice to update books that are from over 10 years old.

candy.man wrote:

kaptaink wrote:The BA codex is not being accepted well in my area.

A) no one plays them
B) everyone looks at their rules and is like 'wtf'


The thing about them is that they have so much of everything, that really the weaknesses (I am admitting they have them) are not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things.

Terrible characters mean little to some people that barely take advantage of the HQ section at all. And, it's not like their HQ slot is lacking, great Librarians that dwarf their C:SM brothers is still something to look at.

Point costs for their vehicles are negligible at best. Considering, 90% of C:SM, CSM, SW, BT, DA etc. players would gladly pay the points to have their Rhino chassis be fast. Point costs of troops aren't a huge deal either, considering you get the discount on transports with the removal of jump packs on Assault Marines, it all balances out.

I think "overpowered" is a bit drastic when describing this codex. 'Poorly designed', and 'stretched imagination' is perhaps a better tag to give it. The ONLY thing I will say about this book being remotely OP is the FNP bubbles that these incredibly cheap Priests give. I don't think him chillin' with ASMs or Tactical Marines is a big deal, it's when he starts going around Mephiston, or Terminators, that it becomes a bit ridiculous. But, you get what you pay for I guess, and power weapons will still kill everyone. So, keep your Null Zone around.

And, MY first impressions of this book is 'try hard'. They tried so hard to have this book be 'different' and while succeeding (I suppose) they have made some pretty silly rules, along with some pretty good ones (that should belong to all SM chapters). Bad rule example: Deep striking LRs. Good rule example: remove jump packs for cheap transports.

Finally, while I am not defending any whining going on here, you have to sympathize with some of these people here. Yeah they are going to complain about BA having everything (that really counts) that C:SM have but more, and why shouldn't they? They do. But I just don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be. But just remember, some people want to play their armies and not be losing games simply because they don't want to pick up the newest Marine codex, but blaming a codex for a loss (unless your 'Crons or DH) is silly.

Anyway, peace.

QFT

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. It's not that they are OP per se but badly designed. If the book was a bit more stream lined with some of the craziness and synergy held in place, we wouldn't be having this discussion (except maybe a classic new codex worry thread which I believe this is not). Essentially the book appears to have too much synergy and appears to be able to play any style of list and do it well (more play testing will essentially be needed to fully break this down on a mathhammer level). While point costs and the gimmicky nature of the dex appear to have held most things in place (some people think they are going to be crushed by an unstoppable wall of FNP termies, jump packs and dreads but a gimmicky list like that would be tiny and easy to beat), the synergy sticks in my opinion. The fully "cheesy" BA list is also yet to be discovered.

Also I definitely agree about sanguinary priests being a bit OP due to the numerous amount of synergy possibilities. They essentially turn anything into highly effective Plague Marine + Khorne Bezerker hybrids. Personally I believe Sanguinary priests should only apply 1 of the 2 bonuses and not both (on an additional purchase cost basis for whichever bonus the player wants their priest to give). Either that or limit the different types of units the bonuses can apply to (to limit scarey FNP deathstar lists).

Thank God.... I'm glad some people on the net are seeing this with more logical analytical eyes... reading Warseer would make you think there's nothing wrong with this book, and everything is hunky dory balanced.

Synergy IS too great with this army. The number of special rules that can be applied to most units is tantamount to absurdity. Added to the comments above is that there is even MORE synergy with Fast Vehicles and Assault Delivery options (Jump Pack Dreads, Descent of Angels, DS LRs).

Lots of folks say "well, BA have higher point costs"... this is marginal at best, and not true at worst. Example.... their Assault and Tactical squads are identically priced as the Vanilla Space Marine counterparts. And while they have fewer long range options with their Heavy Support, they easily make up for this with sheer brutal CC power.

This book has actually prompted three of my friends to put the game down indefinitely. I'm actually tempted to as well. The potential for making game breaking armies with this Dex is on par with 2nd edition silliness. WHAT was GW thinking (or not)?

Please show me the magic blood angels list that can not be beat. I have not found it yet.

I consider BA balanced. They are no stronger than Space Wolves or IG (in fact, I think they fall somewhat short).

So far what I've seen on the net regarding Blood Angels is one of two things:

1. Folks that have played with and against the new codex, and are calmly judging the book to be strong, but not outrageous, due to cost limitations.

2. People like Khorzo freaking out about theory and conjecture that flies in the face of reality, and frequently based on poor understanding of the rules.

Try to build a list, or have your friends build some lists, play them, and see for yourself. Or better yet, since you're so convinced that everyone who isn't crapping their pants over this codex is insane, why not just quit the game? Obviously Matt Ward is the Harbinger of Doom, destroying one game system after another. You should flee while you have the chance, and leave us blind fools behind to suffer for our ignorance.

They are marines, they can be beaten.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:They are marines, they can be beaten.

Lies! The Emprahs Sphess Marinez never lose!

(Personally, I think it looks like a fun codex with a lot of cool options... like Libby Dreads! I don't think it's really overpowered... even though I do think it does my Mech Marine list better than the SM codex.)

Any codex is powerful while you don't know what you are fighting. It will even out in a couple of months.

Khorzho wrote:

Thank God.... I'm glad some people on the net are seeing this with more logical analytical eyes... reading Warseer would make you think there's nothing wrong with this book, and everything is hunky dory balanced.

Synergy IS too great with this army. The number of special rules that can be applied to most units is tantamount to absurdity. Added to the comments above is that there is even MORE synergy with Fast Vehicles and Assault Delivery options (Jump Pack Dreads, Descent of Angels, DS LRs).

Lots of folks say "well, BA have higher point costs"... this is marginal at best, and not true at worst. Example.... their Assault and Tactical squads are identically priced as the Vanilla Space Marine counterparts. And while they have fewer long range options with their Heavy Support, they easily make up for this with sheer brutal CC power.

This book has actually prompted three of my friends to put the game down indefinitely. I'm actually tempted to as well. The potential for making game breaking armies with this Dex is on par with 2nd edition silliness. WHAT was GW thinking (or not)?

Seriously? This is the same drek we hear when every new codex comes out... Lash is broken. Squadrons of IG artillery are broken. "Squads" of Carnefexes are broken. JotWW is broken. Sounds more like the record is broken...

When C:BA sweeps 'Ard Boyz tournaments around the globe, then we can say the Blood Angels Codex is broken. Until then, it's a lot of the same old complaining that occurs everytime a new Codex comes out.

Let's see the lists that are actually "game breaking" before we start complaining about how broken the 'Dex is... Let's see how other players start to find holes in the "game breaking" lists. Sure there are some nasty builds in the Codex. But at the risk of shouting, THERE SHOULD BE.

Sanquinary Priests are 1W MEq ICs. They're not that hard to kill. There's no way to hide them in assault since they have to move before the rest of the squad if they've joined it.

The fast AV13 list might be a tough nut to crack for some lists, but I'm seriously not seeing it topping the IGMech/Leaf Blower list. Just doesn't have the firepower.

I doubt anyone would argue that there's not some silly/stupid stuff in the Codex. Deep striking Land Raiders would seem to be exhibit A on that front. But that's not the same as "breaking the game". Heck, most of the silly/stupid stuff is red-herring type material. Looks great at first pass, but when you actually try it in a game (vice playing interwebz theoryhammer), they just don't tend to work as well as you might want...

Hey, maybe I'm missing something, but how about seeing how the Codex settles in before we all start crying that the sky is falling?

Valete,

JohnS

No, they are not game breaking. But, they have things in there that should have been a part of Marine lists in the beginning (ASM discounted transports I'm looking at you).

Are Baal Predators OP, no, they are just a fast AV13 tank. And you should never forget it has AV11 on the sides, so don't be afraid of it, just envelop it.

Are the Priests OP? No, they are just a silly cheap option that gives such a huge advantage for a little cost in comparison.

The argument is that there are lots of 'silly/stupid' stuff in the book.

And on a side note, my other beef is that everyone things it's soooo much better than C:SM for some stupid reason and they are ditching their current rules so that they can 'better represent their chapters'... RIIIIGHT. I had 'New Codex Bandwagon Jumpers.' It sucks that marines all look the same so these people just say 'counts as' and it's all well and good.

kaptaink wrote:And on a side note, my other beef is that everyone things it's soooo much better than C:SM for some stupid reason and they are ditching their current rules so that they can 'better represent their chapters'... RIIIIGHT. I had 'New Codex Bandwagon Jumpers.' It sucks that marines all look the same so these people just say 'counts as' and it's all well and good.

I detect a hint of jealousy there... Xenos player perhaps?

It's somehow appropriate that people are bewailing the sky falling when it's the Blood Angels.

Gornall wrote:

kaptaink wrote:And on a side note, my other beef is that everyone things it's soooo much better than C:SM for some stupid reason and they are ditching their current rules so that they can 'better represent their chapters'... RIIIIGHT. I had 'New Codex Bandwagon Jumpers.' It sucks that marines all look the same so these people just say 'counts as' and it's all well and good.

I detect a hint of jealousy there... Xenos player perhaps?

Nah man, C:SM player. Salamanders, but I rarely use Vulkan at my point levels I play.

I'm not at all jealous, I like my codex more every time I play it.

kaptaink wrote:No, they are not game breaking. But, they have things in there that should have been a part of Marine lists in the beginning (ASM discounted transports I'm looking at you).

Are Baal Predators OP, no, they are just a fast AV13 tank. And you should never forget it has AV11 on the sides, so don't be afraid of it, just envelop it.

Are the Priests OP? No, they are just a silly cheap option that gives such a huge advantage for a little cost in comparison.

The argument is that there are lots of 'silly/stupid' stuff in the book.

And on a side note, my other beef is that everyone things it's soooo much better than C:SM for some stupid reason and they are ditching their current rules so that they can 'better represent their chapters'... RIIIIGHT. I had 'New Codex Bandwagon Jumpers.' It sucks that marines all look the same so these people just say 'counts as' and it's all well and good.

Sure... GW made Devastators overpay for their heavy weapons in C:SM. SW and BA (and likely future Marine lists) benefit from GW recognizing that. Similarly, Vanilla SM underpay for their TH/SS Termies. SW and BA (and future Marine lists) lose out on that front. SM get revisited a lot since GW puts to much effort into SM lists, so there's always going to be some "updating" of the rules. Look at how the rules for the Machine Spirit and Assault Cannon have changed from C: DH to C: DA to C:SM (et al). The surprise to me would, honestly, be if GW managed to get everything right the first time around.

I'll readily agree that there's some(?) silly/stupid stuff in there, but that's not what most of the, uh, C:BA haters seem to be fixating on. And, again, most of the silly/stupid stuff is just dumb, not broken per se. DS'ing Land Raiders and Stormravens carrying two units don't break the game. They're just silly add-ins that won't likely be used much outside of the odd Apocalypse game... Putting 500+pts in a DS'ing platform that has a serious chance of dying if it lands on a grot (the LR) or is an AV12 model (the 'Raven) just doesn't strike me as something that'll put the fear of Sanguinius in serious players.

Mephiston is a bit of a puzzle to me on that front. He's obviously very powerful, but he can still be tar-pitted, can't score, and is a significant points sink. I suspect that anyone knowing they'll be up against Blood Angels will need some robust psychic defense to keep him (and the rest of the BA psyker options) under control. For some armies, that's a real issue. But that's really no different than anyone playing against Space Wolves or Chaos at this point, is it? Some armies just have trouble matching up with some armies. And any army that lacks psychic defenses will have a hard time with Mephiston if they can't tar-pit him.

Valete,

JohnS

I do kind of have to wonder what's in store for the Dark Eldar. Descent of Angels would've been a pretty good rule for DE...

Blood Angels may or may not be overpowered relative to vanilla Space Marines. I don't know.

In my opinion, the basic problem is that to a large extent the BA list looks like a superset of the vanilla SM list. Most of the core SM units (Tactical Squads, Scouts, Bikes, Terminators, vehicles) are available in mostly identical form in the BA list, with the +10pt Fast Rhino (et.al.) vehicles being the most obvious difference. So it's hard to not see where the "BA have everything SM has, plus some" attitude comes from.

That attitude may be a bit oversold, but it does help indicate how the designers haven't done a good job in differentiating the two. If the argument boils down to the importance of Combat Tactics and Thunderfire cannons, there clearly isn't enough separation between the two.

Q: "What can vanilla SMs do that BAs can't?"
A: "Run away from combat, and their slow vehicles cost less".

Presumably the point behind BA is that they are fast and aggressive, and BA armies should be built to emphasize these strengths. I don't think it was a good idea to enable "non-BA" style builds in the BA codex, since vanilla SM already supports those.

IMO the BA list should have done more to remove or penalize non-fast and non-aggressive units. This would leave a strategic niche for vanilla SMs compared to BA (and SW): a more disciplined balanced arms approach compared to balls-out assault. Vanilla doesn't have the same CC punch, but doesn't risk going out-of-control on you. This is the Combat Tactics/Red Thirst difference, but made more obvious at the army list level.

LMoE

Your idea would suggest GW actually using fluff when writting a codex.

kaptaink wrote:No, they are not game breaking. But, they have things in there that should have been a part of Marine lists in the beginning (ASM discounted transports I'm looking at you).

You must mean for razorbacks and land raiders. Vanilla ASM can trade their packs in for a rhino or pod for free which amounts to the same 35 point discount that the BA get.

cygnnus wrote:
Sanquinary Priests are 1W MEq ICs. They're not that hard to kill. There's no way to hide them in assault since they have to move before the rest of the squad if they've joined it.

The fast AV13 list might be a tough nut to crack for some lists, but I'm seriously not seeing it topping the IGMech/Leaf Blower list. Just doesn't have the firepower.

Just a quick note on these, the close combat vulnerability is not that big, because you only have to move the IC first during pile in moves. You can still easily assault with the unit and keep him out of btb.

As for the fast AV13 list, those predators are quite expensive and have side AV11. They cannot win a tank battle against IG (so all these razorspam armies make me laugh).

kaptaink wrote:No, they are not game breaking. But, they have things in there that should have been a part of Marine lists in the beginning (ASM discounted transports I'm looking at you).

Vanilla ASM DO get discounted transports, its just that they can only choose between a pod and a rhino.

The argument is that there are lots of 'silly/stupid' stuff in the book.

And on a side note, my other beef is that everyone things it's soooo much better than C:SM for some stupid reason and they are ditching their current rules so that they can 'better represent their chapters'... RIIIIGHT. I had 'New Codex Bandwagon Jumpers.' It sucks that marines all look the same so these people just say 'counts as' and it's all well and good.

There is silly/stupid stuff in every book. Some flying angel guy that shows up out of nowhere is no stupider than wolf wolfingtons with wolfclaws and a wolf saga riding a wolf. Space Vampires and Werewolves have always been stupid, so nothing has changed in that regard.

As for the bandwagon-jumpers, ignore them. People of that sort usually chase the flavor of the month uber list because they are terrible players, and can't design (much less play) a decent list if their life depended on it. If they win a game, it's usually due to both them and their opponent not being familiar with the new rules and making an outright mess of them (some folks do this on purpose and take advantage of the convenient "oh its a new book, I misread" excuse). When the next book comes out (Grey Knights? Black Templar?) they will jump ship again, and still suck.

LastManOnEarth wrote:Blood Angels may or may not be overpowered relative to vanilla Space Marines. I don't know.
Q: "What can vanilla SMs do that BAs can't?"
A: "Run away from combat, and their slow vehicles cost less".

Presumably the point behind BA is that they are fast and aggressive, and BA armies should be built to emphasize these strengths. I don't think it was a good idea to enable "non-BA" style builds in the BA codex, since vanilla SM already supports those.

I'm not sure it's necessary to handcuff player options this way. If someone wants to build a "traditional" Marine list using the BA codex, who cares? Combat tactics is far more than just "running away", so best of luck to them on that venture.

LastManOnEarth wrote:Presumably the point behind BA is that they are fast and aggressive, and BA armies should be built to emphasize these strengths. I don't think it was a good idea to enable "non-BA" style builds in the BA codex, since vanilla SM already supports those.

The ability to build a non-BA-specific list is for those who still think that BA are a Codex Chapter, or want to play them that way.

More precisely, Spiky Marines can field:

Spiky Captain & Spiky Librarian
Spiky Dread
2x 5 Spiky Stabby Termies in Spiky Land Raider
6x 10 Spiky Bolter Marines in Spiky Rhinos
2x 10 Jumpy Spiky Fighty Marines
2x 10 Spiky Shooty Marines in Spiky Rhinos
Spiky Predator

(it's Spiky Battle Company FTW!)

If that's possible, why shouldn't BA ape the Codex Astartes Battle Company organization?

I need to point up a list of 2x Tac Squads in Land Raiders, 3x Baals, and 3x Vindicators, plus some cheap HQ and see what it comes out to.

Are they a Codex chapter or not?

If so, why would they need their own Codex?

If not, why would they need virtually every option available to Codex chapters?

My complaint is that the codex sits halfway between being different and being the same. It looks too much like a superset of C:SM which allows them to pick the 'best of both worlds'.

This is annoying for vanilla SM, since BA pull from both the shiny new BA toys AND the reliable C:SM standbys.

This is annoying for non-SM, since GW is dedicating development and release cycles to "Codex: Differently Colored Space Marines with Minor Deviations" and letting "Codex: Something Different Than Yet Still Another Space Marine Army" suck hind tit and languish for yet still another year.

Space Wolves didn't bother me because they were actually different enough from C:SM to be interesting. You couldn't just swap out a few SM units with more effective SW versions and have a strictly superior list.

But right now the only thing that prevents my 1850 SM list from ALSO being a legal BA list is the extra points for the fast rhinos/razorback/predator. That level of sameness is fundamentally less interesting to me.

LMoE

Terminus wrote:

cygnnus wrote:
Sanquinary Priests are 1W MEq ICs. They're not that hard to kill. There's no way to hide them in assault since they have to move before the rest of the squad if they've joined it.

Just a quick note on these, the close combat vulnerability is not that big, because you only have to move the IC first during pile in moves. You can still easily assault with the unit and keep him out of btb.

Huh... Would you look at that... Guess the folks I've played with (myself included!) misread that bit on p49. You learn something new every day... Still, I think the overall point well stands. They're W1 MEQ ICs which aren't that hard to kill in an assault.

Valete,

JohnS

LastManOnEarth wrote:Are they a Codex chapter or not?

They are a Chapter which pays lip service to the Codex, in the same way that we all agree not to drive faster than the speed limit when there's a police cruiser nearby.

LastManOnEarth:

Actually it's the differences in points value, and rules such as Combat Tactics, that keep interfering with my own efforts to translate my Codex: Space Marine army into Codex: Blood Angels.

Originally the army was made as a dual-purpose Blood Angel/Chaos Space Marine army since both armies had equivalents (Possessed/Death Company, Furioso/Chaos Dreadnoughts, etc). But eventually the army split into Chaos Space Marines and Blood Angels.

Part of my problem is, perhaps, the Devastators. I'm a fan of Space Marine Devastators. I'm a fan because in combination with Combat Tactics they can do brutal close support in combination with Dreadnoughts and so on. Without Combat Tactics they're worse than worthless because a Fast Predator is going to do what they do faster, more reliably, and cheaper. Okay, not everything, but everything I want to do with them.

However I do like being able to put my Devastators in the same list as my Land Raiders, and my Chaplain in the same list as my Captain and my Librarian, although it makes for a hard choice to put in my Dreadnoughts (Furioso and normal, but no Venerable) in the same army as my Terminators.

Something that I've consider is trying to figure out a Blood Angels list for my Chaos Space Marines since they share similarities of armament (Chaos Raptors with two Melta Guns, Chaos Space Marines with special weapons although the rest are armed with Bolters...).

Nurglitch wrote:Originally the army was made as a dual-purpose Blood Angel/Chaos Space Marine army since both armies had equivalents (Possessed/Death Company, Furioso/Chaos Dreadnoughts, etc). But eventually the army split into Chaos Space Marines and Blood Angels.

Something that I've consider is trying to figure out a Blood Angels list for my Chaos Space Marines since they share similarities of armament (Chaos Raptors with two Melta Guns, Chaos Space Marines with special weapons although the rest are armed with Bolters...).

I've been puzzling over this as well, trying to reshuffle my Marines to cover various Codices.

Right now, I'm looking at two different approches:
- core with Codex-specific swaps for SM (core) / CSM (Cult) / BA (JP)
- lowest common denominator for CSM (CSM) / BA (Mech)

Both armies will share models due to the overlap issues you mention above, with the same overlapping models (Fury = CSM Dread, AM w/ Meltas, etc.)

i recently did a 3.5k battle against about 1.7k BA and 1.8k imperial fists. The BA did alright, but even with all their special stuff, a sufficent amount of plague marines can take them down. Their new unit Blood Angels Sanguinary Guard was only difficult because of their power weps. the guy i played didnt have any of the shiney deep striking tanks, but he did have a good deal of jump infantry. I won in a prety even match. I honestly think the only thing broken ive seen in the codex is the furioso dreadnot and its abilty to have blood talons. I have been told that they are like lightning claws that get more attacks if you fail armor saves, so unless ur enemy has an invonerable save the deadnot could possibly have unlimited attacks. But that could have been a friend misunderstanding the rule. I would personaly make a house rule against that because its OP for a 125 pt model, unlimited attacks for anything is down right dumb. A simple fix. Sadly the two people i play mostly are making blood angles armies, so little variety to play.

The Furioso with Blood Talons is indeed absolutely sick for only 125 points. It does indeed grant extra attacks for every successful wound, but you have to remember that it still needs to hit with those attacks (granted on a 3+, but still). The average result of a charge against infantry is ~6 dead guys (whether they are Grots or Sanguinary Guard).

And it still has to get there.

And it only has S6, S7 on the charge. An Ironclad, Soulgrinder, or even another Furioso will be immune to it. Meaning...

Furioso Catfight!

Honestly, that bit with the blood talons is bugging me. I can't think of any other "roll more dice"-type ability in 40K that allows you to roll extra dice on top of those ones you get the first time. I don't think it's OP; I think it's a bizarre idea that the writers shouldn't have put in. I'm familiar with the general mechanic - it exists in, for instance, almost any game made by White Wolf. In those, it's always a 1/10 chance of an extra die, and it still tends to cause bizarre rolls of 10 successes on 5 dice.
(Technically speaking, what it does is dramatically extend the high-successes end of the possibility spectrum without doing much to the low end.) Against standard infantry without invulnerable saves, the blood talon's chance of wounding and an extra die is 16/27, which means for the most part that they're either whiffing or killing a lot of guys - there's not much middle ground. In all honesty, though, I see this as being BAD for the BA, not good; you have even less of an idea whether your dread is going to take out the squad he's attacking too early, leaving him open to his opponent's shooting phase.

DaveL wrote: In all honesty, though, I see this as being BAD for the BA, not good; you have even less of an idea whether your dread is going to take out the squad he's attacking too early, leaving him open to his opponent's shooting phase.

Id trade a 125 point dread for a 200+ point squad of marines anyday, especially considering you still have to crack Av13.

DaveL wrote:Honestly, that bit with the blood talons is bugging me. I can't think of any other "roll more dice"-type ability in 40K that allows you to roll extra dice on top of those ones you get the first time. I don't think it's OP; I think it's a bizarre idea that the writers shouldn't have put in. I'm familiar with the general mechanic - it exists in, for instance, almost any game made by White Wolf. In those, it's always a 1/10 chance of an extra die, and it still tends to cause bizarre rolls of 10 successes on 5 dice.
(Technically speaking, what it does is dramatically extend the high-successes end of the possibility spectrum without doing much to the low end.) Against standard infantry without invulnerable saves, the blood talon's chance of wounding and an extra die is 16/27, which means for the most part that they're either whiffing or killing a lot of guys - there's not much middle ground. In all honesty, though, I see this as being BAD for the BA, not good; you have even less of an idea whether your dread is going to take out the squad he's attacking too early, leaving him open to his opponent's shooting phase.

It's actually a blast from the past! It's nothing more than Lighting Claws with RT-era Following-Fire rules!

Valete,

JohnS

Night Lords wrote:

DaveL wrote: In all honesty, though, I see this as being BAD for the BA, not good; you have even less of an idea whether your dread is going to take out the squad he's attacking too early, leaving him open to his opponent's shooting phase.

Id trade a 125 point dread for a 200+ point squad of marines anyday, especially considering you still have to crack Av13.

If you charge an AV13 dread into a squad of marines, whether you're trading the dread for the marines probably doesn't depend on what the dread is equipped with. It depends on what the marines are equipped with. The only question, if the squad doesn't have a PF sarge, is when the squad will die. (If it does have a PF sarge, I suppose it might make some difference if the dread has blood talons - but not an enormous amount, I think, and definitely not reliably so.)

DaveL wrote:Honestly, that bit with the blood talons is bugging me. I can't think of any other "roll more dice"-type ability in 40K that allows you to roll extra dice on top of those ones you get the first time. I don't think it's OP; I think it's a bizarre idea that the writers shouldn't have put in. I'm familiar with the general mechanic - it exists in, for instance, almost any game made by White Wolf. In those, it's always a 1/10 chance of an extra die, and it still tends to cause bizarre rolls of 10 successes on 5 dice.
(Technically speaking, what it does is dramatically extend the high-successes end of the possibility spectrum without doing much to the low end.) Against standard infantry without invulnerable saves, the blood talon's chance of wounding and an extra die is 16/27, which means for the most part that they're either whiffing or killing a lot of guys - there's not much middle ground. In all honesty, though, I see this as being BAD for the BA, not good; you have even less of an idea whether your dread is going to take out the squad he's attacking too early, leaving him open to his opponent's shooting phase.

I don't know, I think the idea of a unique unit with it's own that produce a particular in-game feel (either a load of kills or very few) is a good thing. But then I'm all for having more unique, interesting units in the game.

I haven't played against the furioso yet, but I'm finding it hard to see how a dreadnaught that's only effective in melee against infantry is going to be a game breaker.

DaveL wrote:Honestly, that bit with the blood talons is bugging me. I can't think of any other "roll more dice"-type ability in 40K that allows you to roll extra dice on top of those ones you get the first time. I don't think it's OP; I think it's a bizarre idea that the writers shouldn't have put in. I'm familiar with the general mechanic - it exists in, for instance, almost any game made by White Wolf. In those, it's always a 1/10 chance of an extra die, and it still tends to cause bizarre rolls of 10 successes on 5 dice.
(Technically speaking, what it does is dramatically extend the high-successes end of the possibility spectrum without doing much to the low end.) Against standard infantry without invulnerable saves, the blood talon's chance of wounding and an extra die is 16/27, which means for the most part that they're either whiffing or killing a lot of guys - there's not much middle ground. In all honesty, though, I see this as being BAD for the BA, not good; you have even less of an idea whether your dread is going to take out the squad he's attacking too early, leaving him open to his opponent's shooting phase.

Tyranid OOE.

Can have up to 8 attacks on the charge and for everyone that hits (granted 4+ against MEQ) you get that many more attacks. They don't result in anymore but it's fun on occasion to get 10+ attacks with a S10 MC against a dreadnaught.

DaveL wrote:it's a bizarre idea that the writers shouldn't have put in.

Of course it's bizarre, just like all the non-IC characters with baffling statlines and deep-striking raiders, it was written by Matt Ward.

Against standard infantry without invulnerable saves, the blood talon's chance of wounding and an extra die is 16/27, which means for the most part that they're either whiffing or killing a lot of guys - there's not much middle ground. In all honesty, though, I see this as being BAD for the BA, not good; you have even less of an idea whether your dread is going to take out the squad he's attacking too early, leaving him open to his opponent's shooting phase.

The Furioso is dirt cheap. If he takes out a single guard squad and their chimera, he has paid for himself. Against MEQs, if you get good initial rolls (or even just average), you will destroy most of the enemy unit on your turn and finish them off during theirs. If you get crap rolls, you're still tying up a much more expensive unit and could very well annihilate them next turn.

AV13 is tough for the usual 2 power fist attacks these squads will have. Every shot aimed at the Furioso that can seriously threaten AV13/12 is one less shot aimed at your Stormravens/transports/Sanguinary Guard/whatever.

The only downside for the Furioso is that it's an elite choice...a choice that has much competition IMO...similarly the FA slot has much competition.

Well, you can ease the competition by using Honor Guard for your Sanguinary Priests, which would leave three slots for Furiosos and terminators, etc.

That's been my approach when I wants Furiosos as well.

Of course Honor Guard are damn fine in their own right.

Jack

Terminus wrote:The Furioso is dirt cheap. If he takes out a single guard squad and their chimera, he has paid for himself. Against MEQs, if you get good initial rolls (or even just average), you will destroy most of the enemy unit on your turn and finish them off during theirs. If you get crap rolls, you're still tying up a much more expensive unit and could very well annihilate them next turn.

AV13 is tough for the usual 2 power fist attacks these squads will have. Every shot aimed at the Furioso that can seriously threaten AV13/12 is one less shot aimed at your Stormravens/transports/Sanguinary Guard/whatever.

This is an argument against AV13 dreads, not against blood talons. Do you think ironclads (for almost exactly the same price) are OP? I'll admit I'm not terribly fond of ironclads myself; they're part of an unfortunate arms race, and I might've been happier if they didn't exist. But if the discussion is about blood talons... I really think the extra randomness is a drawback, not an asset, to a BA player.

DaveL wrote:
AV13 is tough for the usual 2 power fist attacks these squads will have. Every shot aimed at the Furioso that can seriously threaten AV13/12 is one less shot aimed at your Stormravens/transports/Sanguinary Guard/whatever.

This is an argument against AV13 dreads, not against blood talons. Do you think ironclads (for almost exactly the same price) are OP? I'll admit I'm not terribly fond of ironclads myself; they're part of an unfortunate arms race, and I might've been happier if they didn't exist. But if the discussion is about blood talons... I really think the extra randomness is a drawback, not an asset, to a BA player.

Slackermagee wrote:


Its a pattern I've seen throughout this new Matt Ward codex: the new army is getting upgraded versions of what the smurfs have for no extra cost or a marginal increase. Case in point: the fast predators. For a 15% increase in cost the AC/LC Blood Angels pred gets a 300% increase in firepower when moving 6" and the ability to shoot period when moving 12" over the smurf AC/LC predator. And that's not all! For the next couple years, this predator will also move 6" farther when it really needs to motor! What a great (read imbalanced and thoughtless) price!

Other examples of 'get more for next to nothing' over the standard codex include:
>Assault marines and other deepstrikers being more reliable both in deployment and arrival from reserves for no increase in points cost
>Paying pennies to make large blobs of marines FNP/FC wherever they deploy from
>Getting more varied options for dedicated troop transport (frees up HS slots for those preds)
>A random chance to furious charge/fearless at the cost of tactical retreat in CC... for the CC oriented space marine army (a drawback, yeah right. woop-de-doo)

Bad codex writing at its finest. While others may like the BA codex for all the toys that it offers, it sets a horrible standard and treatment of the game as a whole.

I pretty agree with Slackermagee's type of thoughts.

Yeah... I think the SW codex did a great job of balancing the tradeoffs for the gains. A lot of the better Vanilla SM units aren't available (Attack Bikes and Sternguard for example) to make up for the other nice stuff. I don't think BA has the same type of tradeoffs.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's OP by any stretch. I just think it steps on C:SM's toes a little because it doesn't lose very many units, but gains a lot more other options and toys.

It certainly does, it certainly does.

Good effort Mr. Ward, but you're working at Games Workshop, not Wizards of the Coast!

40 assault marines (taken with melta bombs of course) for troops, and the ability to take a total of 6 predators (3 Baal and 3 normal) makes me seriously want to switch from IG to Blood Angels, bit the thing that keeps me in IG is that we now have Vendettas with the 3 twin-linked lascannons and able to field up to 9 Battle tanks in fun as hell Not to mention taking Creed to give that Chimera that the Melta vets in the Scouts special rule.... o.o

Slackermagee wrote:Its a pattern I've seen throughout this new Matt Ward codex: the new army is getting upgraded versions of what the smurfs have for no extra cost or a marginal increase.

Case in point: the fast predators. increase in cost

>Assault marines and other deepstrikers being more reliable both in deployment and arrival from reserves for no increase in points cost

>Paying pennies to make large blobs of marines FNP/FC

>Getting more varied options for dedicated troop transport (frees up HS slots for those preds)

>A random chance to furious charge/fearless at the cost of tactical retreat in CC... for the CC oriented space marine army

OK, why don't you compare BA and SM Tactical Squads, for starters. Is the SM Tac Squad better? How about the SM Sternguard Veterans?

Those Preds pay more points for +0% increase in survivability.

SM AM are supposed to suck. BA AM are supposed to be good at assault.

So, wait, FNP/FC isn't free?

Gaining Land Raiders as a Transport is a nice option, but they're expensive and generally overcosted in the current environment. Their other Transports cost more.

Random chance is random chance - it's unreliable, and can penalize certain units significantly (Devastators, for example).

I'm sorry, but you're not getting it. BA are better than SM at assault, and worse at gunline. Build and play them as a Codex Astartes Battle Demi-Company, and they'll be horrible.

Actually, in a recent game I played, the extra points I paid for my Pred did make it both more flexible and more survivable. Being Fast meant I could move it forward to a better firig position than I had available in my deployment zone, then, when it was approached by a Razorback with a bunch of nasties in it, retreat away from the and stay out of combat range for another turn and still open up with all available weapons. So, for those extra points I got to take shots at side armour instead of front armour AND then retreat to stay alive longer.

Admittedly that was only the case in 1 out 4 games that day, but it did make a huge difference in that game, as the self-same Pred that survived by retreating also retreated a bit further still and was thereby able to take the shot that destroyed the Land Speeder contesting my objective.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the BA book is overpowered, but being Fast is a huge advantage for Rhino chassis vehicles. I think the BA book is slightly better than the SM one, but I wouldn't say it is as overwhelming as some people are making out. Many lists will be better off being built using the SM Codex still. Admittedly some will be better with the BA Codex.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, why don't you compare BA and SM Tactical Squads, for starters. Is the SM Tac Squad better? How about the SM Sternguard Veterans?

Well, Matt Ward couldn't make everything better. On the other hand, NOTHING is worse than standard space marines. Losing combat tactics for Descent of Angels (on a great many units) and a chance at FC/fearless isn't great, but how often will these units be losing close combat? Two attacks each for the SG vets and tac squads... why would you bother taking them when you have access to DoA assault marines? I mean, you could, and you could then give them FNP/FC for the cost of a termie (granting that bonus to every squad around them too) and have them sit in the middle of a board, contesting stuff.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Those Preds pay more points for +0% increase in survivability.

How does that refute the BS of a 300% gain in firepower while moving for a 15% cost increase?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
SM AM are supposed to suck. BA AM are supposed to be good at assault.

Uh... they're identical. The only difference being a lack of combat tactics and the ability to out deploy people better than chaos daemons. Seriously, BA AM shouldn't be better at both stages of deep strike deployment just for losing combat tactics (without even having to take a 200 point special character like smrufs do to boot!).

JohnHwangDD wrote:
So, wait, FNP/FC isn't free?

If it was actually free people would be burning codices in Baltimore and Atlanta right now. Instead, its half the cost of a AM squad that can cover multiple units. When you use it well (ie as you should be using it) you get crazy mileage out of a VERY cheap model.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Gaining Land Raiders as a Transport is a nice option, but they're expensive and generally overcosted in the current environment. Their other Transports cost more.

Their other transports cost more because they can move EIGHTEEN INCHES for the same standard 'cost of a power weapon' increase the predator got. Fast assault marines in a crazy cheap fast rhino? And Eldar thought they were good at that kind of thing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Random chance is random chance - it's unreliable, and can penalize certain units significantly (Devastators, for example).

It doesn't give rage. There is no drawback. None. Zero. Nichts.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm sorry, but you're not getting it. BA are better than SM at assault, and worse at gunline. Build and play them as a Codex Astartes Battle Demi-Company, and they'll be horrible.

How are they worse at gunline with cheap, fast anti-tank/anti-infantry vehicles in the fast attack and heavy support choices? They can move and shoot effectively unlike the smurf preds. Its a gunline that can adapt to the enemy. In short, its BETTER.

To harp one more time on the loss of combat tactics: the smurfs lose it too when they want to do semi-cool things (in addition to having to buy a rather expensive HQ). Twin-link some weapons? Lose it. Gain stubborn and maybe some other minor effect? Lose it. Gain fleet? Lose it. They trade away this 'awesome ability' left, right, and center for better (according to the style of the player) abilities.

Slackermagee wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, why don't you compare BA and SM Tactical Squads, for starters. Is the SM Tac Squad better? How about the SM Sternguard Veterans?

On the other hand, NOTHING is worse than standard space marines.

Losing combat tactics for Descent of Angels (on a great many units) and a chance at FC/fearless isn't great,

Two attacks each for the SG vets and tac squads... why would you bother taking them when you have access to DoA assault marines?

Sternguard without the ability to be Scoring are unquestionably worse than standard.

Losing Combat Tactics on Tacticals is worse.

Tactical Marines not being taken by BA? Then clearly SM Tacs are better!

Slackermagee wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Those Preds pay more points for +0% increase in survivability.

How does that refute the BS of a 300% gain in firepower while moving for a 15% cost increase?

It's a cost increase. That's all that matters. Measuring the firepower isn't the only measurement.

Slackermagee wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
SM AM are supposed to suck. BA AM are supposed to be good at assault.

Uh... they're identical. The only difference being a lack of combat tactics and the ability to out deploy people better than chaos daemons.

Seriously, BA AM shouldn't be better at both stages of deep strike deployment just for losing combat tactics (without even having to take a 200 point special character like smrufs do to boot!).

You just said that they're NOT identical.

BA AM should be unquestionably better than SM AM - that's what makes them different.

Slackermagee wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
So, wait, FNP/FC isn't free?

If it was actually free people

Thank you for conceding the point.

Slackermagee wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Gaining Land Raiders as a Transport is a nice option, but they're expensive and generally overcosted in the current environment. Their other Transports cost more.

Their other transports cost more because they can move EIGHTEEN INCHES for the same standard 'cost of a power weapon' increase the predator got. Fast assault marines in a crazy cheap fast rhino?

And Eldar thought they were good at that kind of thing.

Thank you. BA Rhinos cost nearly 50% more than SM Rhinos for no improvement in carrying capacity or firepower, while gaining only 6" more movement potential.

Eldar are a 4E Codex, not a 5E Codex.

Slackermagee wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Random chance is random chance - it's unreliable, and can penalize certain units significantly (Devastators, for example).

It doesn't give rage. There is no drawback.

Aside from losing Combat Tactics, which is good for Devastators.

Slackermagee wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm sorry, but you're not getting it. BA are better than SM at assault, and worse at gunline. Build and play them as a Codex Astartes Battle Demi-Company, and they'll be horrible.

How are they worse at gunline with cheap, fast anti-tank/anti-infantry vehicles in the fast attack and heavy support choices?

To harp one more time on the loss of combat tactics: the smurfs lose it too when they want to do semi-cool things

BA are worse at infantry gunline, following the classic definition. BA are better at playing like BA, and we all get that. BA wouldn't play like SM, and that's the point you're willfully ignoring.

And thank you for conceding that BA are supposed to play differently.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Those Preds pay more points for +0% increase in survivability.

I'm sorry, but you're not getting it. BA are better than SM at assault, and worse at gunline. Build and play them as a Codex Astartes Battle Demi-Company, and they'll be horrible.

Actually without loosing any firepower a fast version of a tank is 33% more survivable than a non-fast version when it is being engaged in assault.

Getting hit on 6s is clearly more survivable than getting hit on 4s. And since there are armies like Orks and Nids that almost have to kill vehicles in HTH, the fast version of the predator/rhino/razorback is more survivable.


And I'm sorry but people who refuse to see the power creep in the BA codex are the ones just not getting it. Yeah the BA can produce almost the basic list as a Smurf list, but if you spam and focus on all the advantages that the BA have over the SM its a no contest situation. If you like the BA codex, thats fine. You want to play out of the BA codex, thats fine too. If someone wants to bitch about the power leap in the codex, thats their right too since it is clearly justified.

Some people still play jet bike seer council Eldar because they like the fluff, effect, and look of the army. They have just learned to harden their skin against the cries of OMG cheese. BA players will have to do the same.

Under the original BA Codex, there were whines of cheese, too. It's nothing new - practically every new Codex goes through the "OMG! B0RKEN!" phase.

Edited for being mean.

>Sternguard being scoring requires that you lose combat tactics.

>Its not a matter of either tactical squad being better, its a matter of the BA AM squad being better than both by a very long way. It would be like saying the SM tacticals are worse than the DA tacticals if you could take Sternguard as troops.

>The predators cost increase comes with a disproportionate power increase which is a textbook example of an imbalanced unit.

>This is a mistake on my part and I apologize for writing hastily and being vague. What I meant here was that both SM and BA AM squads are identical stat wise but that BA AM have the edge in reliable deployment via deepstrike both in arriving from reserves and placement.

>Please don't selectively edit quotes, it's not fair to me and it's not kind to those trying to follow our (now very convoluted) argument. Also I can't find where I called them free, I've been referencing their insanely low points cost from what I can see.

>I deserve some hating from my stats teacher for using percents up until now... it was just convenient not having to say "costs as ______". I think we can all see that the standard upgrade cost to fast on a rhino is the same as for a predator. While its not useful for firing its so much more useful for getting into position. 6" extra per turn is huge and always has been.

>I will NEVER understand why codices cannot be allowed to remain at a set power level. Privateer Press has the same number of armies in their Warmachine/Hordes game system and still manage to keep everyone going at roughly the same pace. Saying that Eldar can't expect to compare to fifth edition codices is a cop out for GW's lazy and profiteering stance on codex updates.

>True, combat tactics is good for devastators. Its a shame that they lose it when people take a cool special characters (which I see fairly regularly, is the same true in your area?).

>Uh, you just ret-conned your first response into infantry gun line. Bad form. Anyway, other gun line armies, (Tau, IG, SM) but not all gun line armies, have the option to play as either infantry or mechanized. Sure BA are worse at infantry gunline but I don't think SM ever really played a good infantry gun line to begin with. They were alright with vehicles but BA are better... they're actually one of the best mechanized gun lines right now with six fast vehicles that can run anti-tank/anti-infantry in addition to razorbacks.

>BA could play differently but did they ever play differently before? They were like DA and BT, smurfs with some cool rules and slight changes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Everyone cries, "OMG look at all those cheesy new units and rules!"

With BA, we can look at the points cost and power analytically to prove power creep.

Also, just in case anyone forgot ('cause I've totally not said this before): Matt Ward also wrote the Daemons of Chaos book. That everyone hated and thought was game destroying. And have continued to hate well past it's release.

Also also: Can I get an official mod temperature check on this thread? I'd rather like to back off before it self-immolates and locks.

Slackermagee wrote:Wow, you really are an editing troll JohnHwang.

Also also: Can I get an official mod temperature check on this thread? I'd rather like to back off before in self-immolates and locks.

At least I don't need to call you names...

That won't be really necessary, as I'm not going to reply to you anymore. Hopefully, you'll do me the same courtesy for the good of the thread.

I'll self-report, too, just to be fair.

Sorry.

It isn't looking too good right now...

Self-regulate, self-police, whatever - but if doesn't get under control quickly it is getting locked and suspensions will probably get handed out.

I did see (at the least) some goalpost-moving, and possibly nonrepresentative editing. And on the other hand some excessive heat/namecalling. Debate appears to now be at the level of warm but cooling. Thanks for the self-awareness, folks.

Moderator hat OFF:

I can see valid points on both sides.

Blood Angels were widely held to be overpowered in 3rd edition, and did have a number of inexpensive or free nasty advantages. And there are often kneejerk cries of cheese when a new codex comes out. And IMO Daemons of Chaos is not generally considered to be overpowered. It plays in a unique way, and many players consider its randomness to be a substantial disadvantage. I really like how BA are designed to play differently than codex SM, and I think it's appropriate to give them advantages which encourage them to do so. Power creep can never be proven when you have contrary evidence like Tyranids, Chaos, and Dark Angels.

OTOH, BA definitely have some very nice, and inexpensive advantages, and the jury is still out- some may really prove to be underpriced. Fast is a really nice advantage for their vehicles. OTOH, 15pts here and 15pts there adds up, and winds up with less scoring in the list. The limiter on the fun new toys in the BA list is always going to be that most of them aren't Scoring. I've had one game against it so far and was impressed by the Fast stuff, by FNP from sanguinary priests, and by Descent of Angels. It's strong, but my Chaos certainly held its own, and that's a 4th ed book.

As others have said, you can defend everything in the book however you want. It just isn't justified.

What happened to the old Overcharged Engines rule? It seems like it would justify the whole Fast Vehicle.

There would be no way people could complain about Sanguinity Priests if they didn't have a 6inch bubble of FNP rather than the 40k standard of it only effecting its own unit.

Is this a hint that Warhammer should go to some kind of beta testing? It might make situations like this not possible.

I think those are rather extreme positions to take at this stage of newness.

Every army does some builds types better then other armies, that is rather the point.

Yes there are near identical lists that are out and out better in the Blood Angels book, or Space Wolves, and some that are better done in Codex Space Marines. That how it works, you pick the army that makes the list you want to work, end of story.

Picking Blood Angels for fast tanks and Scoring assault marines is just as valid as picking orks for massive, relatively tough infantry hordes.

Blood Angels does not look to massively alter the landscape of what army is best, therefore clearly any power change is relatively small.

Jack

Slackermagee wrote:

DaveL wrote:
AV13 is tough for the usual 2 power fist attacks these squads will have. Every shot aimed at the Furioso that can seriously threaten AV13/12 is one less shot aimed at your Stormravens/transports/Sanguinary Guard/whatever.

This is an argument against AV13 dreads, not against blood talons. Do you think ironclads (for almost exactly the same price) are OP? I'll admit I'm not terribly fond of ironclads myself; they're part of an unfortunate arms race, and I might've been happier if they didn't exist. But if the discussion is about blood talons... I really think the extra randomness is a drawback, not an asset, to a BA player.

Its not randomness at all though. You get to wound standard infantry on a 2+, just like bloodfists. You get to reroll wounds (which makes them less random against almost all targets) AND keep attacking for each successful wound. It just kills more, period.

DaveL wrote:It kills more, yes. In a way that is completely unpredictable and can come back to bite you in the rear. If you want me to go into detail about the statistics, I'll be happy to do so, but for now I'll assume you'd rather talk about why it's bad. I'll make an analogy.

Let's pretend you have a 30-point option for an ironclad that, if you roll a 6 at the beginning of your CC phase, causes an armor-save-ignoring wound on every model in base contact with the dread at initiative 10 instead of attacking normally. Ridiculous, overpowered, I hear you saying. Think about it a little more.

You're familiar with the concept of wanting to stay in CC during your opponent's turn, correct? That way your dread doesn't get a meltagun to the face. If you do get to use this overpowered ability, you kill the squad. Congratulations. You were going to do that anyway with an ironclad vs. standard infantry; it just might've taken a little longer without the ability, like for instance until after your opponent shoots.

You also can't really rely on it working, even when you want it to. Not enough to charge a Nob squad with some PKs, or termies with powerfists or thunderhammers.

In other words, it allows you to do something you could already do perfectly fine, but have a chance of doing it faster - when you'd probably rather do it slower - and doesn't let you do anything you couldn't already do.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner! Dead on.

Speaking of a Melta Gun to the face, has anyone else noticed that while Furioso Dreadnoughts may get WS6, they still have BS4 and don't get the re-roll that Venerable Dreadnoughts get?

The meltagun is just a perk. Dreads should have had WS6 a long time ago.

G

BS 4 is more a matter of game balance than relative skill with a weapon.. BS5 has a much higher impact than WS 5-9

This is what it boils down to IMO

BA can do Maximum overdrive better and cheaper than space wolves (go ahead and calculate the points)
MO is considered by many to be the "powerhouse cheese" space wolf list. and GW just bent over and handed it over to BA in a better form ala fast vehicles and lower point cost.

BA have Sangy Priests which turn everything within 6" into badasses, they can hide in a unit of assault marines and laugh when you try to stack a ton of wounds on them with shooting, because they will just allocate the easy-to-save wounds on the priest and 3+4+ it. cant really take them down in the assault, because BA will most likely be assaulting you out of their fast vehicles, or accurately deepstriking jump packers and assaulting you next turn, most units will most likely die without the chance to put a dent in them, I5 counts for a LOT.

Descent of Angels allowing reserve rerolling AND accurate deepstriking is a bit over the top IMO, especially when you consider that nids lost their reserve rerolling lictors to gain the terrible +1 to the table when they are already on the table, but not on the turn they arrive, so it only "helps" in turn 3+ because they have to start in reserve anyways. BA dont even have to pay anything extra for this, forget trading combat tactics for the 1/6th chance to gain FC/Fearless, they get workable deepstrikes.

OP bits of the codex
-dirt cheap fast razorbacks in extremely points efficient assault squads
-Sangy Priests
-Descent of Angels

Baals, Stormravens, deep striking landraiders, flying dreadnoughts, cheaper devs, all these things add versitility without adding (much) cost, and I dont think they alone imbalance the codex, but paired with the OP bits above it makes for a "ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING" from more than the normal number of internet tough guys.


Everyone giving up anecdotal evidence to them not being OP are probly playing against lists that have lots of the new toys, which are ironically NOT the strength of the codex. We wont know much more about this codex untill a few months have passed and everyone realizes that maximum overdrive blood angels will be at least as powerful if not more so than the leafblower.

Wait untill you fight against 6 assault marine squads with razorbacks, 3 sangy priests divided amongst them to make them survivable and deadly in the assault, along with 3 dakka preds and 3 baals. Its a stupid amount of firepower that can still F you sideways in the assault and outrun your fastest units... not to mention 6 scoring units.

Assault Marines with Feel No Pain and Furious Charge.
Charge them first, charge them with the usual stuff that's effective against Space Marines (i.e. ignores armour and thus ignores Feel No Pain).

Fast Vehicles.
Have you no Melta? Does Fast improve a vehicle's armour ratings or cause a re-roll on the damage tables?

Accurate Deep Strikes.
Have you heard of Locator Beacons? Teleport Homers?

Reliable Reserves via Deep Strike.
Because no one has Mystics and the Master of the Fleet, and so on. If you used Drop Pods you'd get half on the first turn, guaranteed.

Sanguinary Priests?
W1 Independent Characters. How is that a problem?

Baal Predators?
Basically expensive and slow Land Speeders.

Deep Striking Land Raiders.
So? Seriously?

Flying Dreadnoughts.
Actually really expensive Librarian Dreadnoughts using a psychic power. Why don't you own a Psychic Hood or Runic Weapons or what have you?

Storm Ravens.
All the problems with a Valkyrie (no cover, expensive, lousy armour), yadda yadda.

Maximum Overdrive.
Maxing out on AV11 units is throwing victory points away, particularly when you can give every unit a Land Raider.

Just for the record... being a Fast Vehicle does help against meltas and other anti-tank weaponry. You can outrange/outmanuever those weapons, or find cover with that extra movement.

Just for the record teleport homers cost extra points, BA get something similar for free.

Mystics and Masters of the fleet cost extra points, BA get it for free

You cant effectively Kill an IC attatch to a unit with shooting untill you have destroyed the entire squad, you cant effectivly kill him in assaults because the blood angels either have fast vehicles to ensure they have the charge lined up, or are in jump packs and by nature of being more mobile are more likely to get the assault.

Land Speeders are AV10. What AV is in the front of Baal Predators? Target saturation with high AV vehicles.

Deep strike is an option that CAN be taken if the situation calls for it, BA dont pay any extra points to gain an extra deployment method

Psychic hoods and runic weapons do not guarentee that the dreadnoughts wont fly. This is still just one more good unit option they have.

Storm Ravens have all the problems and benefits of Valkyries and they get better units to drop out of them, and they arn't even half as risky to drop out because of their special rules.

Max Overdrive doesnt care how many KPs it can give up, it works like leafblower in that it either wipes the enemy off the table or cripples it so bad in the first turn that the opponent cant possible recover to win.

and you pointed out ANOTHER bonus they get, as many Land Raiders as they want.

troll more

Demogerg:

I wouldn't call it trolling so much as pouring scorn on your weak game.

Of course Teleport Homers cost extra points: there is no danger of scattering. If Blood Angels want that pin-point accuracy then they have to pay for Locator Beacons and Teleport Homers of their own, or pay for Commander Dante.

Likewise of course Mystics and Masters of the Fleet cost points: because they thoroughly feth with any attempt to Deep Strike onto the board. And Blood Angels do pay for the Descent of Angels: it's what they get instead of Combat Tactics.

If you can't effectively combat a single wound Independent Character because Blood Angels have Fast vehicles and Jump Packs...what's wrong with you? Haven't you played any variety of Eldar? Orks? Don't you know how to screen units?

Likewise, of course anti-psychic wargear isn't guaranteed to prevent the Librarian Dreadnought from flinging itself into range of your Melta Guns, but what is guaranteed in Warhammer? You learn how to game the rules and your opponent to set up situations that favour you: this is called tactics. Learn tactics.

Speaking of tactics, were you aware that the rear armour of a Baal Predator is the exact same as that of a Land Speeder? For a tank that's supposed to be AV13, it's certainly well-designed to exposed its AV10 rear. If only there was some sort of land vehicle that could carry a Multi-Melta speedily enough to shoot such a tank in the rear. Or, let's face it, simply shoot it in the front armour because those extra 3 points are going to make dick-all difference to a Melta weapon.

But first, learn strategy. Part of strategy is resource management: if you spend more points on Unit A than Unit B to perform an action, you'd better get commensurately better results. But you know what? Neither the Furioso Librarian or the Storm Raven have any additional stamina compared to a regular Dreadnought or a Valkyrie - the Storm Raven does ignore the Melta rule, but with AV12, who's going to be shooting Melta Guns at it? It's Lascannon bait.

Speaking of cost effective, where you aware that any Space Marine list below 2000pts can get all the Land Raiders that they want?

You know what really bugs me about all the Chicken Little's that run around like idiots lamenting how over-powered the latest Codex release is? Warhammer 40k is a game, and games are about problem-solving. How about instead of giving up like a loser would, you sit down and figure out how to beat the Blood Angels?

Nurglitch wrote:
You know what really bugs me about all the Chicken Little's that run around like idiots lamenting how over-powered the latest Codex release is? Warhammer 40k is a game, and games are about problem-solving. How about instead of giving up like a loser would, you sit down and figure out how to beat the Blood Angels?

This man has the right idea. Go forth chickens and find ways to beat a codex that LOOKS tough but ,in fact, is very beatable.

Happygrunt wrote:
This man has the right idea. Go forth chickens and find ways to beat a codex that IS tough but ,in fact, is very beatable.

Fixed that for you.

The codex just doesnt look or feel as blood angels as the wolf book felt wolfy. Its strange, I cant really describe it. As the germans say, es ist geistlos

Not enough characters or wargear with "blood" in it? Nah, it has plenty of that.

But I know what you mean, it feels more like a Chaos book than a Loyalist one.

I wouldnt say that. It feels like going from the 3.5 chaos codex to the current one. Its space marines, with spikes, and some demons and evil god worship, but its not chaos. Thats what I get out of this. Its codex chaos marines+choppy and speed, minus really good characters. Maybe im still a 3rd edition player at heart, but I find i remember the days where if you played a specialist army it did one thing. World eaters armies ran across the table and chopped you up, and did it exceedingly well. But your ranged firepower was small and unreliable. If you ran an ulthwe eldar army you had lots of good guardians, and good farseers, but little else. Now theres kind of a have your cake and eat it too idea.

Fluff wise blood angels are a confused blend of pre heresy emperors children and world eaters, minus the total awesome inherent in both of those legions. And with this book they are just poop. Not that I expected much from them.

Except it's not "have your cake and eat it too", because you are still constrained by points. If you want an effective assault army that steamrolls anyone in close combat, you have to dedicate enough points to it that your shooting will be "small and unreliable". I don't mind books allowing you to design whatever kind of army you want.

I think the "poop" aspect comes from the fact that they're a bunch of emo, Dr Jeckel/Mr Hyde, Space Vampire, Christian-allegory douche-nozzles.

I agree with alot of the comments here. The current book is beatable but also has serious balance/design issues. The book does not seem to focus on a particular aspect that one would want in a specialised non codex SM Book (close combat, shooting etc) but rather cover multiple aspects.

At the moment we have this weird combination of psychic shooty blood angels that are as blood thirsty as bezerkers in CC. From a rules perspective, the book seems to better represent an assault/spearhead based Chaos Marine army than a tactical non codex BA strikeforce (which is probably what GW orginally wanted).

It would be interesting to hear how everyone thinks the BA book should have been designed (what rules/units should/should not be present?)

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:The codex just doesnt look or feel as blood angels as the wolf book felt wolfy. Its strange, I cant really describe it. As the germans say, es ist geistlos

More like "neue geist".

The BA are being redone as *more* BA than BA ever were. In many ways, I think that the writers overreached, intentionally, in order to future-proof the latest BA Codex. After all, as a second / third tier Codex, it will have to last for about a decade before the next writing.

And this is why all the too many SM / Chicken Little stuff is total nonsense. Sure, BA are good right now. They'll probably be good in 6E and 7E too. And with each metagame change, expect to see a shift in models / tactics / strategy.