The only game that I've played (this includes video and tabletop) that doesn't have female armour as curve-shaped breasty-showoff rubbish is Mount&Blade where, if I take off my curaiss and give it to a woman... it retains its shape!

I mean, don't give me rubbish about women being uncomfortable in non-customised armour, I don't think that excuse can lead to the extremes we see in wargames and vidya games...

Sure, give them a bit of space for their breasts, but squeezing along the hips surely isn't necessary?

Tbh it just leads me to conclude that we're all supposed to be fapping under the table when Sisters enter play?

Sexism!

You seem surprised?

Maybe it's just me being cynical, but as with all things like that, it's there because it will sell. People that play video and tabletop games don't exactly have the best reputations in regards to women (cue threads about a woman being in the LGS).

It just gives the consumer another opportunity to look at breasts and therefore a reason to buy the game. simple as that.

Because people like that women retain their femininity in armor; otherwise they just look like men with a woman's face (see also, most anime/video game heroes/villains).

So you don't like breasts?

Shaman wrote:So you don't like breasts?

I'm an old fashioned guy, I'd rather fantasise about working on the woman for many a month, eventually being rewarded by a small slip of flesh, perhaps the wrist?


I jest,

Nah, it's just something that bothers me because I'm all-for realism in areas that are horrendously blatant like that (thankfully I can overlook other areas of 40k).

I have 0% feminist credentials but I dont like 'porno plate' either.

Its very common in D&D.

Gladiatorial partial armour I can understand, its supposed to accentuate the figure, male or female, but porno plate is designed to resemble lingerie or at best evening dress but is supposed to count as full armour.

Good example Lady Aribeth from Neverwinter Nights:



That armour isnt going to save her life, it will be fricking cold too.

well, mostly because games are... just games. Man character is way cooler when he looks like a badass in black full plate and giant greatsword, and women character is way cooler, when she looks like a hot chick.

And when your fighting dragons,daemons, or bloodthirsty space fungus, realism of your armour is the last thing you care about

Kubik wrote:well, mostly because games are... just games. Man character is way cooler when he looks like a badass in black full plate and giant greatsword, and women character is way cooler, when she looks like a hot chick.

And when your fighting dragons,daemons, or bloodthirsty space fungus, realism of your armour is the last thing you care about

Full armour can still look alright

Sorry but Joan of Arc was the only one I could think of...

I would rather women in games had armour that looked like armour, rather than porno plate, as mentioned above.

Tbh what prompted me to make the thread was the discussion about female SM... and some people whining for models to be made.

Logically they'd look exactly the same (unless they haven't got a helmet, in which case, use a custom head).

Thus I see it as a further enroachment by what you guys've been calling "porno plate" :-/

Now that it's starting to get a bit warmer, take a look at women in the street and see how they dress. Or go clubbing and see how much skin is shown in relation to clothing. Not a lot of difference if you ask me...

Check out oblivion for more sensible armour, as far as I'm aware there isn't any armour in there that when put on a female character looks like it would only protect them against a demonic tatooist hell bent on piercing nipples!

The simple answer is that the target market for most video games are people with large imaginations and little in the way of 'player' personalities, so why not pander to thier needs and provide them with characters that give them something to fantasise about that fits thier imagination quite well to sell more copies?

Look at car magazines aimed at younger generations, they are selling the models they drape over the cars more than the cars themselves!

Flashman wrote:Now that it's starting to get a bit warmer, take a look at women in the street and see how they dress. Or go clubbing and see how much skin is shown in relation to clothing. Not a lot of difference if you ask me...

Wow, because those women are dressing for combat?

Look at a female soldier... pretty plain... on some of them you could squint and not tell them apart from their colleagues.

Flashman wrote:Now that it's starting to get a bit warmer, take a look at women in the street and see how they dress. Or go clubbing and see how much skin is shown in relation to clothing. Not a lot of difference if you ask me...

Yeah, but admittedly, that's compensating for the warm weather and has the intention of looking good, rather than protecting them from being stabbed. The have a different kind of protection for a different kind of being stabbed...

Well ok, I give you Catachan Jungle Fighters then. They wear nothing but vests and are suppposed to have a 5+ flak armour save.

Yes, girls don't wear a lot in fantasy art and maybe this is a little sexist, but my point was that this is largely reflective of how girls dress anyway, which I thought was the point of the discussion.

Should the armour worn by Battle Sisters justify a 3+ Power Armour save? Probably not, but it looks damn cool.

Henners, you make the point that today's male and female combat soldiers look alike. Well if you put a girl in Space Marine power armour, it would just look like a Space Marine with lipstick. Aesthetics demand that female warriors look a little different in these kind of games, so that it's obvious that the character is a girl!

This is sisters in reasonable armor disappointing no?

See I still prefer porno plate.. Guess Im sexist then haha.

@Shaman that's a comprimise eh?

@Flashman I can see why from a modelling/artistic PoV you might want to distinguish female soldiers... but seeing the whole "sci-fi babe" with a pistol in one hand and another hand on her hip with her tremendous arse poking out is a bit too far, imo... I'd just model SM with female heads!

Sex sells, you know it.

Henners91 wrote:Tbh what prompted me to make the thread was the discussion about female SM... and some people whining for models to be made.

Logically they'd look exactly the same (unless they haven't got a helmet, in which case, use a custom head).

Thus I see it as a further enroachment by what you guys've been calling "porno plate" :-/

If you read those threads then you will have seen that those of us who want female SM's are neither whining nor wanting "porno-armour"
As a point of fact I agree with most of your comments.

The reason for the fetishistic costumes of female characters stems from a culture which not merely tolerated the sexualisation of women but promoted it.
In Anime I believe it is called viewer service as is meant to please a mainly male audience.

It has become self parodying and a terrible cliche apart from anything else. IMHO it is time to move on and for designers to come up with some fresh ideas when portraying women.

I'm against porno plate as well. The entire idea is just stupid.

This is one of my favorite female models:


She's the Death Cleric from the defunct Chainmail line.

She's covered in fantasy armor, but she's not friggin' wearing a plate belly shirt with a garter belt and thong like half the figures out there. Because she's here to murder you. I like the idea of it. She's obviously female, but also mostly protected.

Maybe it's just me, but "porno plate" is perfectly acceptable, if not preferable, because I happen to like checking out hot fantasy ladies.

I note that no one seems to mind big, beefy barbarians being portrayed with nothing but a fur loincloth and a battle axe fighting off hordes of monsters.(Wulfgar or Caramon come to mind.)

Why the double standard?

In closing, the more exposed She-Elf skin the better.

Henners91 wrote:
Tbh it just leads me to conclude that we're all supposed to be fapping under the table when Sisters enter play?

Aren't we?

well, it all depends on what are you looking for in games/movies etc. If the game/movie is supposed to be realistic, than ok, I agree "porno plate" is just ridicolous.

But, if play something like Warhammer or dnd? 2m long swords, repeating crossbows, chainswords, power fists, swimming in full plate, casting fireballs all around. The last thing i want from my character is to look realistic (which means lame in most of cases). The same goes for strongholds, starships, weapons and female armour. These are the rules of "awesome"

I guess it depends on the role of the character. I like the fact of SoB having a full power armour (well, with breasts and a corset), and I also like the fact of Red Sonja wearing a chainmail bikini. They are both justified (better or worse) by their stories.

I don't have an opinion in general. I just guess that the target for this material are male teens...

Why is armour in video games usually sexist?

Lets see I wake up in the morning, turn on the radio and hear Lady Gaga asking me to "poke her face, Rihanna: "is you big enuough" etc. etc. Turn on the tv and women rythe around naked in the shower on shampoo commercials moaning like they are being seen to by casonova. Buy a newspaper turn one age and I see tits, magazine about tits, magazine about electronic equipment...complete with tits. Everywhere I look, women are being sexualised.

And you expect wargames, an industry who's market is almost exclusively male, to be any different?

no I expect the whole of the media to grow up too

Un?fortunately that wont happen because it's all ruled by the common rule of: 'man see naked woman, man want naked woman, man want what naked woman advertising.' Also known as: testosterone.

Porno-plate has actually been proven to be the most effective armour for hunting dragons.

Much like dogs a can be said to have the mentality of about a four-year-old, most dragons have the mentality of a 13-year-old boy. When they see breasts, the rest of their brain immediately shuts down, and they don't even notice the sword in the buxom warrior's hand until it is too late.

In this way, bikini-mail is ideal for the task at hand, and it explains why there are more pictures of near-naked women hunting dragons than full-armour-clad men; the women actually return to tell the tale.

@ henners isn't it?
That armor does not highlight tits. Yet is still sisters of battle armor style.. I am Confused..

Also just so you know.. Realism is generally speaking Really boring.

BOOBIE BREAST PLATE FTW. You will never take that away from my video games NEVER!

Kubik wrote:repeating crossbows

How is that fantasy?

I personaly don't see what all the fuss is about,fantasy minitures depicting females in skimpy dress or "porn armour" are just that..."fantasy".
If your offended by them,dont buy them or play against them...very simple.
And as far as "objectifying" women,I honestly belive that most people "objectify" everyone to a greater or lesser degree...the guy behind the counter at Mcdonalds isn't "John,the student who also aspires to play in a band some day" to most people...he's just the "guy at Mcdonalds".

Platuan4th wrote:

Kubik wrote:repeating crossbows

How is that fantasy?

omg, you know what I mean. I'm sure You will find real life chainswords too if you'll look hard enough

Because guys boobs

/thread

Because for female characters, armour class is inversly proportionate to amount of armour.

I guess that means running around completely naked= 1+ Armour 1+Invul?

Not only that, but all enemy models in LOS are unable to do anything but stare. Only daemons are invulnerable to this, and reduce her saves to 2+ and 2++.

I really haven't seen that much "Porno Plate" beyond my brief 2 years in WoW, before they completely ruined the game. Then again I haven't played many MMORPGs as it seems to be the epicentre for Porno plate and "I give you gold 4 look @ ur boobs!" kids. I think it really depends on Genre of game. I've played a couple Sci Fi MMOs and neither of them had porno plate. In Face of Mankind, one of the titles I tried out, players with female characters in Police or Military service were almost indistinguishable from male characters when wearing full body armour and shielded helmets. The only thing that really gave them away were their more slender forms. And then games like the Mass Effect titles, Metroid, and Anarchy Online, to name three, also have armour that's made -for- a female form without being revealing. There might be the odd scrap of porno plate now and then, but it's really not a signifigant enough amount to call out on.

I also don't consider Sisters to be wearing Porno plate, as it's not like they're wearing armour that looks more like a bikini than something you'd bring to a fight. They're in fully enclosed Power Armour. The fact that they've sculpted boob-holders into their armour is just to signify that they -are- women. Because, let's be honest, some of them are pretty manly looking.

metallifan wrote:Because, let's be honest, some of them are pretty manly looking.

...considers possibility that all Battle Sisters are actually transvestites...

Flashman wrote:

metallifan wrote:Because, let's be honest, some of them are pretty manly looking.

...Realizes fact that all Battle Sisters are actually transvestites...

Fix'd for ya

Is it really any different from male armor with giant broad chest and shoulders? Is not as if there's much of a double standard.

Shaman wrote:

This is sisters in reasonable armor disappointing no?

See I still prefer porno plate.. Guess Im sexist then haha.

I quite like it...

"Because the nerd is a tiresome, predictable creature..."

There are a few sculpts out there of women showing a lot of skin that I really like. I'm working on a set of conversions right now that will be almost totally nude. So it's not a case of offensiveness, it's just a case of class. I'm not against the chainmail bikini, but there's a time and place for it. A lot of times it feels like people who produce fantasy/sci-fi content for young men (nerds) feel the need to shoe-horn it into every female character's wardrobe.

It's not offensive, it's just kinda sad. By trying to make the product more adult, they've actually made it far, far more childish. It's the sex version of GW's GRIMDARK violence paradox.

I agree with the realism of some of the mini's that need to look, like they are dressed for the occasion of battle....but things like the bikini armour and what not falls into the fantasy of all aspects (whether sci-fi or medieval times) for the targeted market.

Though this is not mini related....I recalled when Metroid first came out in the 80's....people had no idea that Samus Aran was a female character until they defeated the game in x-hours to reveal her with out the armour.....Though the proportions of the armour shows some aspect of the female body....it threw everyone off by the true identity of Samus. Did people complain...maybe a few, but everyone accepted the armour for its functionality of it.



Its not that I am for it or against the lay out of how mini manufacturer's should represent female armoured miniatures,
but as the OP has mentioned some realism should be taken into consideration

Yes, I demand realism in my video games about bounty hunters... in space... fighting monsters genetically engineered... by... Space Pirates?

Take a look at Halo Legends.The Spartan in one episode looks just like the Chief, yet when the Brute attacks them, SHE takes her helmet off in her dying breaths. She was female. Did she have massive breats armour? No.

JOHIRA wrote:There are a few sculpts out there of women showing a lot of skin that I really like. I'm working on a set of conversions right now that will be almost totally nude. So it's not a case of offensiveness, it's just a case of class. I'm not against the chainmail bikini, but there's a time and place for it. A lot of times it feels like people who produce fantasy/sci-fi content for young men (nerds) feel the need to shoe-horn it into every female character's wardrobe.

It's not offensive, it's just kinda sad. By trying to make the product more adult, they've actually made it far, far more childish. It's the sex version of GW's GRIMDARK violence paradox.

It just goes to show that many of the creative people are really, really immature. Even otherwise great miniature lines usually produce cringeworthy female models. Off the top of my head, I could list ten great male figures that don't look like beefcake, but would be at a loss to find even five awesome non-cheesecake females.

Kubik wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

Kubik wrote:repeating crossbows

How is that fantasy?

omg, you know what I mean. I'm sure You will find real life chainswords too if you'll look hard enough

I don't know about that, but you don't have to look too far to find 6' long swords: the average Scottish Claymore was about 5'.

Also, back on topic, it's called fantasy armor for a reason.

I can't help but remeber a seinfeld bit about this kind of thing. Actualy, that sentance is applicable to almost anything.

Henners91 wrote:



Full armour can still look alright

Sorry but Joan of Arc was the only one I could think of...

I though more or less along the same lines but rather than look at St Jeanne herself as a sex symbol, which is rather unfair I prefer to think of Milla Jovovich during her depiction of of Jeanne D'Arc for The Messenger. And yes she still manges to look hot in field plate. You probably wouldnt notice if she wore a helmet though.



It does leave it to the imagination whats underneath the rather masculine shaped shell, but that is little deterent. Pictures arent enough, watch the film and you understand why the french knights depicted thought she was hot as well as holy. A woman in armour can still move like a woman and act like a woman, ironically that can make her a lot sexier than if she was wearing a dress at the time.



Even bulky power armour cannot completely remove feminine charm if the helmet is missing. Brotherhood of Steel armour is far from sexy. Ballsy yes, sexy no. However I don't know about you but I distinctly got a positive mental impression about what is underneath Sarah Lyons ironwork.

Shaman wrote:

This is sisters in reasonable armor disappointing no?

See I still prefer porno plate.. Guess Im sexist then haha.

Standard sisters armour is not 'porno plate', It might cut a figure but doesn't skimp from protection unless the sister fails to wear a helmet. Besides some female armour can and should make allowances for the chest depending on the woman.
Sisters Repentia on the other hand....


Porno plate is partial plate often without any support padding or gambeson over naked or near naked flesh. It is very common in D&D style fantasy. It is historically accurate when depicting female gladiators, and for that matter male gladiators as they were designed to look sexy too. Normally in juveleine fantasy the area protected mimics the lines of the cut of a dress often a very skimpy dress.



Here is a pretty near perfect example of the dress mimicing concept. The cryxian Witch coven are armoured not clothed yet what you see is a low line dress, crop top and sideless halterneck all known forms of limited cover summer or evening wear but not armouring. The shoulders are often bare with prono plate wheras that is the first place to armour for a real fighter, including real gladiators wearing real arena armour that is designed to arouse as much as protect.
Take a look at real gladiator armour for a second.



This armour is designed for three purposes. Cheap, cut a manly figure for the audience and also protection. However the protection is limited its enough for which to attack faithfully but not enough to 'tank' your opponent unlike real soldiers armour. When duelling and in a fighting stance the protection offered is fairly good mostly shoulder and weapon arm cover, with head cover if you have a short ranged weapon. Thats good mimimal armour for duelling and saves you fro easy kills, but you need skill to keep your armoured side showing and skill to parry other blows.

Female gladiators were rarer but had fairly similar concepts for armouring.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gallery_of_female_warrior_Elite_Gladiator_armor

The armour at the above site is fantasy by not that bad, only for the real arena she would have a pectoral and armoured breast cups. Crouched for the attack and with the standard myrmidon weapons loadout of scimitar and buckler used for female gladiators she would have a good chance of protecting herself. Ironically the areas of the body actually armoured are with the exception of small greaves and vambraces almost exactly opposite to the 'armour' sported by Lady Aribeth as imaged in my prior post.

This is what is so ridiculous about prono plate. Female partial plate armour for the real arena existed and it got plenty of male attention and was far skimpier than most of the plate evening dresses so common for D&D and Privateer Press but far better designed.

i'd blame it on the Cod pieces....

You're right, lets do away with the fantasy porno plate....

...as a matter of fact, lets do away with ALL clothes on females in video games!



(did someone say sexist? Yep, proud of it!)

Dragon Age has a mix of both, the lighter armours are much closer to porno plate but usually aren't quite, the heavier armours however look nearly the same as they do on male characters as well. I think this is just something that Bioware does quite often, as I remember that only a few armours from either KOTOR was exactly revealing, though if you gave Bastilla sith armour then took it off her underwear went from golden good girl to black corset with stockings, but then again, that is underwear.

I don't generally play games that have waaaay too stupid female armour on them.

As for that fellow who mentioned that barbarians were perceived as masses of muscle who were little to no armour or if they did wore just furs, that's partially correct. As the warlords, cheifs, or higher ranking tribesmen would indeed have chainmail or some other form of armour, the vast majority of barbarians would fight with little to no armour. Some even thought that wearing anything at all was a sign of cowardice, look at the naked fanatics that are prevalent throughout celtic culture. The celtic warrior ideal wore no armour.

if guild wars female armors and dragon age looks sexist... take a look to Lineage 2 (i'm sure that someone will know what i'm talking about) it truly distract the player... as someone told before, it sells...

The same reason men in video games are muscle bound body builders with incredably huge shoudlers and a dashingly strong jaw line. Works both ways and my statement has as many exceptions as the OP does

Simple fact is that video games and comics etc.. are not fine art and go for a cariacture effect to convey the impression the artist wants. Also "strong and sexy" is not sexist at all as they do the same to guys, you just dont notice because you probably dont butter your bread on that side.

Leotilt wrote:The same reason men in video games are muscle bound body builders with incredably huge shoudlers and a dashingly strong jaw line. Works both ways and my statement has as many exceptions as the OP does

Simple fact is that video games and comics etc.. are not fine art and go for a cariacture effect to convey the impression the artist wants. Also "strong and sexy" is not sexist at all as they do the same to guys, you just dont notice because you probably dont butter your bread on that side.

100% true! and even more in the last years, 10-15 years ago was really strange to see a girl playing video games, so, thinking it coldly, is a "natural evolution" games makers must think in both, males and females as a greater market....

WAR did female Knights of the Blazing Sun well.

I think we all should post as many pictures as possible of this "sexist" armor so that I can exactly understand what you are talking about.

Leotilt wrote:The same reason men in video games are muscle bound body builders with incredably huge shoudlers and a dashingly strong jaw line. Works both ways and my statement has as many exceptions as the OP does

Simple fact is that video games and comics etc.. are not fine art and go for a cariacture effect to convey the impression the artist wants. Also "strong and sexy" is not sexist at all as they do the same to guys, you just dont notice because you probably dont butter your bread on that side.

Exactly,it's "fantasy escapeism"...huge powerfuly built men and busty curvacious women do not automaticly eqaute to "sexism".
Besides,as I've stated in previous threads,anyone who is cappable of becoming aroused or offended over a video game image or a minutare should get out and interact with the opposite sex more often.

Intresting to note that WARhammer online changed the character models for there korean/asia client to include pretty faces, big round doe eyes and spiky haircuts

I'm currently swatting the wife away from the PC as she wants to post gratuatus male examples of porno plate (like the film 300) :lol:

Leotilt wrote:I'm currently swatting the wife away from the PC as she wants to post gratuatus male examples of porno plate (like the film 300) :lol:

Like this?

Monster Rain wrote:

Leotilt wrote:I'm currently swatting the wife away from the PC as she wants to post gratuatus male examples of porno plate (like the film 300) :lol:

Like this?

See,THAT lends some perspective to the whole debate.

Did you have to quote that picture? Now this page is tainted too

Monster Rain wrote:

Leotilt wrote:I'm currently swatting the wife away from the PC as she wants to post gratuatus male examples of porno plate (like the film 300) :lol:

Like this?

MY EYES! THEY BURN!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Please stop quoting it, thats three times we have been subjected to the retina scarring image.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leotilt wrote:Intresting to note that WARhammer online changed the character models for there korean/asia client to include pretty faces, big round doe eyes and spiky haircuts

I'm currently swatting the wife away from the PC as she wants to post gratuatus male examples of porno plate (like the film 300) :lol:

Don't stop her. So long as she doesn't post images with 'tackle' we ought to be able to accept it, not to would be very immature and grossly unfair.

ahhhh!! i will have nightmares aaaaaaaaaaaaarrggg!!! maybe can i find some "sexist" porno plate girls from the game i referred before....

Hey guys, so what's the discussion been like so fa-AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

...AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!




Buh...so anyway, I don't mind skimpier fantasy outfits now and then, if it "makes sense" I guess. For example, Dark Elf Blackguard in WAR, whether male or female, wear full plate armor because they're tanks, meant to be on the front line taking damage. Dark Elf sorceresses wield powerful magic and sit in the back, doesn't really matter what they wear to battle. Witch elves I can tolerate being near nude, because they're just crazy, bloodthirsty killers. Skimpier outfits kinda fit the background anyway, if you ask me...they're all cruel and depraved, practicing dark rituals and making blood sacrifices, torturing people, etc. They're not really "right" in the head.

SilverMK2 wrote:Did you have to quote that picture? Now this page is tainted too

Sorry Silver,but as you can now see... my error has been repeated...and the taint spreads.

well tell it to her!

its suposed that this armor protects something



someone told about images about "sexist" armor... then here's one
anyway, maybe it works as an eye antidote for the latest pics....

FITZZ wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Leotilt wrote:I'm currently swatting the wife away from the PC as she wants to post gratuatus male examples of porno plate (like the film 300) :lol:

Like this?

See,THAT lends some perspective to the whole debate.

I think I found next years adepticon team tournie outfits

Feminine and functional. The perfect coordination for today's savvy Crusader.

well, you can't see naked skin on this one, but... still sexy

I wonder why

Henners91 wrote:The only game that I've played (this includes video and tabletop) that doesn't have female armour as curve-shaped breasty-showoff rubbish is Mount&Blade where, if I take off my curaiss and give it to a woman... it retains its shape!

I mean, don't give me rubbish about women being uncomfortable in non-customised armour, I don't think that excuse can lead to the extremes we see in wargames and vidya games...

Sure, give them a bit of space for their breasts, but squeezing along the hips surely isn't necessary?

Tbh it just leads me to conclude that we're all supposed to be fapping under the table when Sisters enter play?

Sexism!

While you raise a valid point I really think this issue is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. To be honest, why are females prevalent in fighting/strategic/rpg/ and other games when in reality there were maybe a handful of women that took up a sword throughout all of history? If you're offended by such a thing don't buy the game that promotes it.

The fact of the matter is these are only games, they are a creative escape from reality and any sexism is there to sell the game. I'm an artist and the last thing I'd want is some government body or organizations telling me how I can draw a figure, male or female, so that certain aspects of the population would not get offended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Black Corsair wrote:well tell it to her!

its suposed that this armor protects something



someone told about images about "sexist" armor... then here's one
anyway, maybe it works as an eye antidote for the latest pics....

Sadly, the armor set shown there is a combination of several sets. The lower portion is for a Mage robe Tallum set, while the upper portions looks to be a Heavy bronze or Composite set. Lineage 2 is an absolutely extreme example of armor being form fitted and the supposed 'sexism' of it is only a factor for horny pre-pubescent guys.

If you get into Lineage2, you find the most drama centered MMO w/ some of the best PvP available. Nothing like killing somebody just because you can

FITZZ wrote:
And as far as "objectifying" women,I honestly belive that most people "objectify" everyone to a greater or lesser degree...the guy behind the counter at Mcdonalds isn't "John,the student who also aspires to play in a band some day" to most people...he's just the "guy at Mcdonalds".

Exactly. The problem with the 'sexualisation of women' argument is that, if you follow it to it's logical conclusion you end up with the the argument that any person, or any gender, behaving in any way that is commonly accepted as 'attractive' or 'arounsing' is therefore being turned into a sexual object.

If you argue, as previous in the thread, that Lady Gaga revealing lots of skin and singing suggestive lyrics (i.e behaving in a way which may be sexually attractive to men) therefore 'objectifies women' then you have to conclude that any media depiction of a male character behaving in a traditionally 'masculine attractive' way (i.e having big muscles, exposing his chest, protecting things, rescuing people) therefore 'objectifies men'.

Oh dear lord Sexy outer space ninjas indeed

I thought of something else too. Look at superman and supergirl. This would be sexist if supergirls powers where baking really nice cakes and keeping her hands soft while she does the washing up while wearing a frumpy apron. But instead she is a kick ass babe in a sexy outfit fighting crime just like superman is a kick ass hunk in a sexy outfit fighting crime

Because it's Hawt.

Some of the posts in here concerning those two fella's almost killed me by the way, Sid's post, well I almost forgot to breathe there for a min.


Tbh I can see where folks are coming from, but its not something that really bothers me eithereay. Hell Northrend armour in WoW is so heavy in some styles it looks like you'd need a pair of shears to get it off some of the girls. There is certainly less of the Bikini style stuff the highier in lvl you go though, I can think of one plate set that is really silly, although funny to wear, but not a lot that jumps out at me.

Orlanth wrote:
Porno plate is partial plate often without any support padding or gambeson over naked or near naked flesh. It is very common in D&D style fantasy. It is historically accurate when depicting female gladiators, and for that matter male gladiators as they were designed to look sexy too. Normally in juveleine fantasy the area protected mimics the lines of the cut of a dress often a very skimpy dress.



Here is a pretty near perfect example of the dress mimicing concept. The cryxian Witch coven are armoured not clothed yet what you see is a low line dress, crop top and sideless halterneck all known forms of limited cover summer or evening wear but not armouring. The shoulders are often bare with prono plate wheras that is the first place to armour for a real fighter, including real gladiators wearing real arena armour that is designed to arouse as much as protect.
Take a look at real gladiator armour for a second.

As much as I agreed with the rest of your post, this example doesn't support your thesis because the female models pictured above are not wearing any armor. The three casters have ARM 12, the same armor given to all of the other Cryx models that aren't wearing effective armor. Completely naked undead constructs get an ARM 12, and a model has to strap a rocket to its back or be a non-warcaster wearing cloth in order to get a lower ARM stat.

That's not porno armor because that's not armor. Whether that makes it worse or not, I don't know.

Monster Rain wrote:In closing, the more exposed She-Elf skin the better.

He has stolen the words from my heart and mind and placed them here in digital format for the world.

Why is armour in video games usually sexist?

why not?

This ceased being a serious discussion when sexism was brought into the debate

I think it was best summed up by this post

ArbitorIan wrote:

FITZZ wrote:
And as far as "objectifying" women,I honestly belive that most people "objectify" everyone to a greater or lesser degree...the guy behind the counter at Mcdonalds isn't "John,the student who also aspires to play in a band some day" to most people...he's just the "guy at Mcdonalds".

Exactly. The problem with the 'sexualisation of women' argument is that, if you follow it to it's logical conclusion you end up with the the argument that any person, or any gender, behaving in any way that is commonly accepted as 'attractive' or 'arounsing' is therefore being turned into a sexual object.

If you argue, as previous in the thread, that Lady Gaga revealing lots of skin and singing suggestive lyrics (i.e behaving in a way which may be sexually attractive to men) therefore 'objectifies women' then you have to conclude that any media depiction of a male character behaving in a traditionally 'masculine attractive' way (i.e having big muscles, exposing his chest, protecting things, rescuing people) therefore 'objectifies men'.

right on all points. But the root of the problem is that the wrong word is being used here. Objectifies definition is being twisted so severly out of proportion that it ceases to apply. Now replace the word objectify with "sexually attracted to" in most conversations and you have successfully deciphered the secret message .

It reminds me of when feminists demand that you stop thinking of them as women. Well lady unless you've had a recent sex change or you were born a hermaphrodite you ARE a women.

OT: The Discussion of Porno-plate is the least of your worries in a science fiction universe where you have Dark Eldar rape patrols, Mass murder, Xenophobia, religious heretics being murdered, Mass Brainwashing, etc.

I guess no 1 here has been fencing (sword fighting) with women, they have breats, and they need to be protected, you can just squish them, its painful for females, its onlt reasonable that the armour is designed to mould the body, and funny that there should be a bumb on the front.

Just common sense really

Rymafyr wrote:I'm an artist and the last thing I'd want is some government body or organizations telling me how I can draw a figure, male or female, so that certain aspects of the population would not get offended.

No one has said anything about government bodies or organizations telling anyone how to do anything. Isn't basic civillity reason enough to act like an adult?

The Unending wrote:It reminds me of when feminists demand that you stop thinking of them as women. Well lady unless you've had a recent sex change or you were born a hermaphrodite you ARE a women.

That hasn't happened in this thread either. If I didn't know better, I'd think you guys were arguing straw mans.

Squig=herder wrote:I guess no 1 here has been fencing (sword fighting) with women,

Actually, I have. And women's fencing uniforms are not that different from men's. And the war-torn battlefields of most fantasy and science fiction worlds are quite different from the average university gym fencing mat.


Look, I think a lot of you guys are taking this thread off in a direction that's not useful. Quit panicking about words like "objectification" or "sexism". Just look at the reaction of revulsion that near universally came out here from those guys wearing ball slingshots. That doesn't happen when screenshots from Bayonetta or X-Blades get posted.

Now, I'm not saying we can't have scanty-clad ladies in fantasy armour. Just that the adults that design these things should act like adults. So should players. In the things people wanted to change about the hobby, a huge majority of Dakkaites wanted to meet more attractive women through it. That same proportion in this thread almost sound like they resent that we're even having this conversation. I promise you people- those two phenomena are directly related.

I think there are plenty of armor that is sexist , i mean look at these guys for example:
Depicting male as 8 feet tall super humans , all muscle. Even their nipple gets their own armor.

solkan wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Porno plate is partial plate often without any support padding or gambeson over naked or near naked flesh. It is very common in D&D style fantasy. It is historically accurate when depicting female gladiators, and for that matter male gladiators as they were designed to look sexy too. Normally in juveleine fantasy the area protected mimics the lines of the cut of a dress often a very skimpy dress.



Here is a pretty near perfect example of the dress mimicing concept. The cryxian Witch coven are armoured not clothed yet what you see is a low line dress, crop top and sideless halterneck all known forms of limited cover summer or evening wear but not armouring. The shoulders are often bare with prono plate wheras that is the first place to armour for a real fighter, including real gladiators wearing real arena armour that is designed to arouse as much as protect.
Take a look at real gladiator armour for a second.

As much as I agreed with the rest of your post, this example doesn't support your thesis because the female models pictured above are not wearing any armor. The three casters have ARM 12, the same armor given to all of the other Cryx models that aren't wearing effective armor. Completely naked undead constructs get an ARM 12, and a model has to strap a rocket to its back or be a non-warcaster wearing cloth in order to get a lower ARM stat.

That's not porno armor because that's not armor. Whether that makes it worse or not, I don't know.

Its armour alright, its just that PP realised that porno plate protects nothing and decided to stat the witches accordingly. If you look at the artwork the articulated halterneck and other attire are plate metal. I have the book but not a scan of the imagery. Page 86 of Apotheosis. Let me see if I can find a picture.....I found cosplayers with cloth versions of the Covens armour, and I found fan art (which doesnt count) but the orginal artwork is very clear its plate. So if it is clothing on account of its ARM 12 its clothing made of thick metal plates held together with rivets and screws. In fact other than some thin arm straps and a G-string, with the gusset replaced by metal plates the witches are not wearing any visible clothing at all, just metal. The miniatures are different in that they also have cloaks, omitted from the codex artwork.

If a weapon hits the plate the girls will possibly be ok, but there is no padding (common to porno plate) and wide open vitals from various common attack directions. The witch in a plate crop top is the nearest to having a chance as her armour is broadly similar to that of a secutor, but she only carries a dagger, not short sword and tower shield needed to survive that level of armouring, just too bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:I think there are plenty of armor that is sexist , i mean look at these guys for example:
Depicting male as 8 feet tall super humans , all muscle. Even their nipple gets their own armor.

Armoured sixpacks and plate nipples are nothing new. The Greeks and Romans loved ornamenting cuirasses this way.


Here is the real thing.

Not much bronzework survives, but we see the style a lot from friezes mozaics and statues.

Why is armour in video games usually sexist?

Every entertainment meduim embraces sexuality in some form or another, and any or all of this could be interpreted as sexist.

Personally, I just like the titties.

Got any more pictures of breasts?...... heheyaaaawoooowaaaaabooobab!

JOHIRA wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:I'm an artist and the last thing I'd want is some government body or organizations telling me how I can draw a figure, male or female, so that certain aspects of the population would not get offended.

No one has said anything about government bodies or organizations telling anyone how to do anything. Isn't basic civillity reason enough to act like an adult?

The Unending wrote:It reminds me of when feminists demand that you stop thinking of them as women. Well lady unless you've had a recent sex change or you were born a hermaphrodite you ARE a women.

That hasn't happened in this thread either. If I didn't know better, I'd think you guys were arguing straw mans.

Squig=herder wrote:
I guess no 1 here has been fencing (sword fighting) with women,

Actually, I have. And women's fencing uniforms are not that different from men's. And the war-torn battlefields of most fantasy and science fiction worlds are quite different from the average university gym fencing mat.


Look, I think a lot of you guys are taking this thread off in a direction that's not useful. Quit panicking about words like "objectification" or "sexism". Just look at the reaction of revulsion that near universally came out here from those guys wearing ball slingshots. That doesn't happen when screenshots from Bayonetta or X-Blades get posted.

Now, I'm not saying we can't have scanty-clad ladies in fantasy armour. Just that the adults that design these things should act like adults. So should players. In the things people wanted to change about the hobby, a huge majority of Dakkaites wanted to meet more attractive women through it. That same proportion in this thread almost sound like they resent that we're even having this conversation. I promise you people- those two phenomena are directly related.

1. That was one sentence in my entire post. Even if I removed that one sentence the rest of it would still stand on its own. You have failed to address the rest of my post and singled out a weak sentence that in retrospect may have been unnecessary

2. The posts were relevant when the OP decided to say that female armor was sexist (exaggerated maybe, but sexist?)

3. Ball-Slingshot men were disgusting even by female standards the same way most men hate fat chicks in thongs. Now if you were to take a Nordic warrior covered in bear skins with an exposed chest or Fabio esque man with the typical romance nove pose with his chest hanging out and a rose in his mouth you would not get the same reaction.

4. Just because you accuse us of arguing straw men doesn't mean you aren't guilty of the same for the above reasons.

The Unending wrote:1. That was one sentence in my entire post. Even if I removed that one sentence the rest of it would still stand on its own. You have failed to address the rest of my post and singled out a weak sentence that in retrospect may have been unnecessary

Calm down. My intent here is not to say "You, The Unending, are wrrrrooooonnnnnnnggggg!!!!!", but to try and get people to keep from taking this over the top.

3. Ball-Slingshot men were disgusting even by female standards the same way most men hate fat chicks in thongs. Now if you were to take a Nordic warrior covered in bear skins with an exposed chest or Fabio esque man with the typical romance nove pose with his chest hanging out and a rose in his mouth you would not get the same reaction.

Actually, I think I would from the guys here. Just look at the Twightlight movies. Has there been nothing but support for them on Dakka?

Honestly, the media does need to grow up, but the majority will continue to be sexist and depraved and ever-craving some sight of exposed flesh to debase themselves over.


It doesn't bother me too much about the SoB... but the Sisters Repentia and Chaos Daemonettes are what I really dislike... they are blatantly pornographic, even though it is not innately sexual.
Daemonettes could still be alluring and daemonic without having to expose breasts.
Sisters Repentia don't need to be naked to be repentant and charge into combat.

This is a game that is marketed to children, just as much as adults, and there are no warning labels on these products for those miniatures and army codices.

In_Theory wrote:Honestly, the media does need to grow up, but the majority will continue to be sexist and depraved and ever-craving some sight of exposed flesh to debase themselves over.


It doesn't bother me too much about the SoB... but the Sisters Repentia and Chaos Daemonettes are what I really dislike... they are blatantly pornographic, even though it is not innately sexual.
Daemonettes could still be alluring and daemonic without having to expose breasts.
Sisters Repentia don't need to be naked to be repentant and charge into combat.

This is a game that is marketed to children, just as much as adults, and there are no warning labels on these products for those miniatures and army codices.

Meh. It's not really marketed to children though, is it? I'd say if we were going to rate it by content it would be aimed at the 12+ crowd. The subject matter is pretty mature, what with all the violence and Genocide and general bleakness of the whole thing. Again we have the interesting paradox of "Violence is okay, sex is naughty!"

I wouldn't call Sisters and Daemonettes "pornographic." There's nothing exposed on those models that you wouldn't see on say, the Venus Di'Milo.

Sexiest armour, not sexist.

/thread

Why did it take 3 pages for someone to come up with that line?

JOHIRA wrote:

The Unending wrote:1. That was one sentence in my entire post. Even if I removed that one sentence the rest of it would still stand on its own. You have failed to address the rest of my post and singled out a weak sentence that in retrospect may have been unnecessary

Calm down. My intent here is not to say "You, The Unending, are wrrrrooooonnnnnnnggggg!!!!!", but to try and get people to keep from taking this over the top.

3. Ball-Slingshot men were disgusting even by female standards the same way most men hate fat chicks in thongs. Now if you were to take a Nordic warrior covered in bear skins with an exposed chest or Fabio esque man with the typical romance nove pose with his chest hanging out and a rose in his mouth you would not get the same reaction.

Actually, I think I would from the guys here. Just look at the Twightlight movies. Has there been nothing but support for them on Dakka?

I did not mean to sound as upset as I did. I was mostly upset at the straw man accusation.

On the note of the twilight novel series relating to the exposing of the male form. The Twilight series is made fun of due to its facepalming moments and depiction of vampires. It has more to do with the content than the imagry. Where as the ball slingshot men were outright vomit inducing by any standards.

Let's not overlook Fallout 3!



Miss Lyons isn't half-bad looking, is she? Yet she's wearing the intentionally unisex T-45d Power Armour. It's unisex because, like Space Marine power armour, it's had so much plating and augmentation added to it that the outer layer no longer needs to conform to the individual wearing it to achieve a good fit.

That's not to say the armour worn by the Sisters of Battle isn't legitimate; while bulky, it's intentionally sculpted to emphasize their femininity. If we don't go overboard and break the fourth wall, there are several good reasons for this. Their dramatically graceful and female appearance is a reminder that they are women who forgo the easy life their beauty could grant them and fight in the Emperor's name.


Moving a step down to plate armour, it makes sense for it to be a LITTLE more slender for the simple fact that a lot of space between your armour and your body would make it uncomfortable. That would lead to something like this:






And yet, not all women who take to the battlefield, especially those in fiction, are as willing to sacrifice their femininity in the name of practicality. Though perhaps it shouldn't be taken to the extreme of metal lingerie, I think it's more than okay for armour to emphasize its wearer's feminine assets as long as it doesn't become entirely useless in the process.

Orlanth wrote:

solkan wrote:
As much as I agreed with the rest of your post, this example doesn't support your thesis because the female models pictured above are not wearing any armor. The three casters have ARM 12, the same armor given to all of the other Cryx models that aren't wearing effective armor. Completely naked undead constructs get an ARM 12, and a model has to strap a rocket to its back or be a non-warcaster wearing cloth in order to get a lower ARM stat.

That's not porno armor because that's not armor. Whether that makes it worse or not, I don't know.

Its armour alright, its just that PP realised that porno plate protects nothing and decided to stat the witches accordingly. If you look at the artwork the articulated halterneck and other attire are plate metal. I have the book but not a scan of the imagery. Page 86 of Apotheosis. Let me see if I can find a picture.....I found cosplayers with cloth versions of the Covens armour, and I found fan art (which doesnt count) but the orginal artwork is very clear its plate. So if it is clothing on account of its ARM 12 its clothing made of thick metal plates held together with rivets and screws. In fact other than some thin arm straps and a G-string, with the gusset replaced by metal plates the witches are not wearing any visible clothing at all, just metal. The miniatures are different in that they also have cloaks, omitted from the codex artwork.

If a weapon hits the plate the girls will possibly be ok, but there is no padding (common to porno plate) and wide open vitals from various common attack directions. The witch in a plate crop top is the nearest to having a chance as her armour is broadly similar to that of a secutor, but she only carries a dagger, not short sword and tower shield needed to survive that level of armouring, just too bad.

I'm sorry, but if a Princess Leia slave outfit doesn't provide any armor benefit you don't get to call it porno armor. You can justifiably call it a porn outfit, but if it's not armor you can't complain about it providing a benefit that it doesn't provide.

Completely buck naked undead constructs like the Mechanithralls and Skarlocks have just as much armor rating as the Coven has, and Bilethralls and Necrotechs actually have a higher armor rating than that. Hell, even the Satyxis raiders have that same "might as well not be wearing anything" armor rating.

If you'd like to complain about the other Cryx casters who happen to actually be wearing porno armor, you should do that. You could even start with Skarre, the source of the infinitely repeated of Great Rack jokes, or go straight to Deneghra with her convenient "insert polearm here" outfit, since the game stats imply that they're supposed to be wearing effective armor. And for extra credit ask why Mortenbra built herself a metal evening dress with matching metal shawl but left the top of her chest completely exposed.

But when the least effective looking armor is ACTUALLY not at all effective, it doesn't support your argument.

In_Theory wrote: but the Sisters Repentia and Chaos Daemonettes are what I really dislike... they are blatantly pornographic, even though it is not innately sexual.

uhhh... no.

Daemonettes could still be alluring and daemonic without having to expose breasts.

See, here's what I disagree with, people are getting hung up on content and not context. You're just taking it in the opposite direction from the BOOBIES FOR THE SAKE OF BOOBIES! crowd.

Daemonettes are the creation of a god of excess. It is entirely appropriate to render them with some exposed breasts, and not at all pornographic. (seriously, have you ever actually seen porn?) Any parent that doesn't want their children exposed to them should act like a parent and monitor their kid's gaming. The rest of us are adults and can make our own decisions.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Unending wrote:On the note of the twilight novel series relating to the exposing of the male form. The Twilight series is made fun of due to its facepalming moments and depiction of vampires. It has more to do with the content than the imagry. Where as the ball slingshot men were outright vomit inducing by any standards.

You must have your finger on a very different pulse than I do. Pretty much every man I've heard deal with the Twilight phenomenon has mocked it for being a blatant self-insertion fantasy for women to use to imagine themselves surrounded by implausibly attractive men who are fascinated with them for implausibly vague reasons. Guys I know disparage Twilight and its fans at just about every opportunity and would resent it being worked into a game. And yet those same guys have absolutely no problems with the exact same fantasy that has the genders swapped.

Which isn't bad. It's not morally wrong. But if those same guys are going to whinge about women not taking their hobby seriously, we can surely all see the reason why, right?

JOHIRA wrote:

The Unending wrote:On the note of the twilight novel series relating to the exposing of the male form. The Twilight series is made fun of due to its facepalming moments and depiction of vampires. It has more to do with the content than the imagry. Where as the ball slingshot men were outright vomit inducing by any standards.

You must have your finger on a very different pulse than I do. Pretty much every man I've heard deal with the Twilight phenomenon has mocked it for being a blatant self-insertion fantasy for women to use to imagine themselves surrounded by implausibly attractive men who are fascinated with them for implausibly vague reasons. Guys I know disparage Twilight and its fans at just about every opportunity and would resent it being worked into a game. And yet those same guys have absolutely no problems with the exact same fantasy that has the genders swapped.

Which isn't bad. It's not morally wrong. But if those same guys are going to whinge about women not taking their hobby seriously, we can surely all see the reason why, right?

Again Twilight is mocked for its content what I am referring to is its imagery two very different things. Imagery is what this discussiong is about.

There have been repeated examples of "porno-plate" for men that many have no problem with. Sanguinary Guard with the six pack and chest worked into their armor, Nordic warriors in animal furs and nothing else, 300 with guys defending a mountain pass in banana hamocks and a guy whose clothes are made entirely out of piercings etc.

Now while I may have a problem with some of the reasoning behind them (i.e. twilight and its inane story) I will not have a problem with the visual appearence (i.e. the vampires with grey skin)

Owain wrote:Let's not overlook Fallout 3!



Miss Lyons isn't half-bad looking, is she? Yet she's wearing the intentionally unisex T-45d Power Armour. It's unisex because, like Space Marine power armour, it's had so much plating and augmentation added to it that the outer layer no longer needs to conform to the individual wearing it to achieve a good fit.

Read up two pages, Sarah Lyons has not been overlooked!
Yes her femininity shows through without the need for porno plate.

solkan wrote:
I'm sorry, but if a Princess Leia slave outfit doesn't provide any armor benefit you don't get to call it porno armor. You can justifiably call it a porn outfit, but if it's not armor you can't complain about it providing a benefit that it doesn't provide.

Completely buck naked undead constructs like the Mechanithralls and Skarlocks have just as much armor rating as the Coven has, and Bilethralls and Necrotechs actually have a higher armor rating than that. Hell, even the Satyxis raiders have that same "might as well not be wearing anything" armor rating.

If you'd like to complain about the other Cryx casters who happen to actually be wearing porno armor, you should do that. You could even start with Skarre, the source of the infinitely repeated of Great Rack jokes, or go straight to Deneghra with her convenient "insert polearm here" outfit, since the game stats imply that they're supposed to be wearing effective armor. And for extra credit ask why Mortenbra built herself a metal evening dress with matching metal shawl but left the top of her chest completely exposed.

But when the least effective looking armor is ACTUALLY not at all effective, it doesn't support your argument.

I have come to see that Privateer Press allocates ARM stats arbotrarily on account of game balance and sometimes has little bearing on the armour worn. I still believe the Coven wear porno plate on account of the picture on page 86 of Apotheosis (first edition) that what they are wearing is unequiqocably armour.

Leia as Jabbas slave was not really wearing armour just a metal cupped bra, it more fashion.

However my reason for saying this is because of what I have seen looking the other way. Take a look at Ashlynn D'Elyse who happens to have the fairly low ARM 14, only Caine and the Coven have lower ARM amongst warcasters and yet she wears field plate, very reasonable field plate by all accounts once you forgive the lack of helmet so customary of character models.




Ashlynn has the same ARM as the transparently porno plated Denegra and the Harbinger. Though we can make allowances for the Harbinger because she is being directly looked after by Menoth himself and probably doesnt need armour, she is certainly not wearing much of any, just a pectoral i cannot count her obviously decorate shoulder plates especially as she will be floating above whatever it trying to hit her.

Yet Ashlynn is less well armoured than ARM 15 Sorsha, with her red plate corset and armoured high heels. Skarre with her open chest and cloth sleeves also manages ARM 15.



Perhaps ginger is right:

ginger_nid_dude wrote:Because for female characters, armour class is inversly proportionate to amount of armour.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on Twilight. Your ideas of why it gets mocked are completely different from every experience I've ever had on the topic.

The Unending wrote:There have been repeated examples of "porno-plate" for men that many have no problem with. Sanguinary Guard with the six pack and chest worked into their armor, Nordic warriors in animal furs and nothing else, 300 with guys defending a mountain pass in banana hamocks and a guy whose clothes are made entirely out of piercings etc.

These are poor counter-examples. Sanguinary Guard armour is actually functional- the armour fully covers the wearer, and so it is automatically disqualified as "porno-plate". Nordic warriors are also poor examples because people actually dressed that way. And though I have seen the absurd outfits from 300 mocked by guys, I believe that it gets a pass because the behavior of the Spartans is intended to appeal principally to straight guys. It's written by a guy for guys, and uses over-the-top macho action to counter-balance the homoerotic subtext that oozes off the screen. It's not historically accurate, but it feels like the history many guys wish was true. In other words, the problem isn't strictly what the armour looks like, but the context it comes from. If it was more historically accurate, with the Spartans oiling each other up and washing each other's hair before battle, it would cross a context line into something that makes most gamers uncomfortable and catch a lot more flack.

That makes 300 a whole different tin of boobies from real "porno-plate", which is armour that is designed to be ineffective so it can erotically appeal to men when worn by women and is completely unsupported by any reasonable context in the game.

Black Corsair wrote:

Whats wrong with this armor? Her arms appear to be completely covered in chainmail, I don't see what is so bad about that.

JOHIRA wrote: I believe that it gets a pass because the behavior of the Spartans is intended to appeal principally to straight guys. It's written by a guy for guys, and uses over-the-top macho action to counter-balance the homoerotic subtext that oozes off the screen. It's not historically accurate, but it feels like the history many guys wish was true. In other words, the problem isn't strictly what the armour looks like, but the context it comes from. If it was more historically accurate, with the Spartans oiling each other up and washing each other's hair before battle, it would cross a context line into something that makes most gamers uncomfortable and catch a lot more flack.

That makes 300 a whole different tin of boobies from real "porno-plate", which is armour that is designed to be ineffective so it can erotically appeal to men when worn by women and is completely unsupported by any reasonable context in the game.

How ironic that is. The kewl parts of the script people like in 300 were taken from Herodotus, with a few exceptions. The 300 Spartans was a far better film, watched it again just yesterday. Not entirely accurate but not bad.

It's the appeal to straight men thing that gets me laughing. You see those Spartans who marched with Leonidas would have been homosexuals, yep gay, every single one. It was part of their training you see, Spartans were taught this from when they entered training so that running away would be abandoning your lovers in battle, it worked. Sparta however suffered from a side effect of this policy as fewer Spartan men would marry and produce offspring willingly and many had to be forced to go and reproduce because they would rather be in the barracks with the guys. Sparta basically was running out of Spartans.

Orlanth wrote:

JOHIRA wrote: I believe that it gets a pass because the behavior of the Spartans is intended to appeal principally to straight guys. It's written by a guy for guys, and uses over-the-top macho action to counter-balance the homoerotic subtext that oozes off the screen. It's not historically accurate, but it feels like the history many guys wish was true. In other words, the problem isn't strictly what the armour looks like, but the context it comes from. If it was more historically accurate, with the Spartans oiling each other up and washing each other's hair before battle, it would cross a context line into something that makes most gamers uncomfortable and catch a lot more flack.

That makes 300 a whole different tin of boobies from real "porno-plate", which is armour that is designed to be ineffective so it can erotically appeal to men when worn by women and is completely unsupported by any reasonable context in the game.

How ironic that is. The kewl parts of the script people like in 300 were taken from Herodotus, with a few exceptions. The 300 Spartans was a far better film, watched it again just yesterday. Not entirely accurate but not bad.

It's the appeal to straight men thing that gets me laughing. You see those Spartans who marched with Leonidas would have been homosexuals, yep gay, every single one. It was part of their training you see, Spartans were taught this from when they entered training so that running away would be abandoning your lovers in battle, it worked. Sparta however suffered from a side effect of this policy as fewer Spartan men would marry and produce offspring willingly and many had to be forced to go and reproduce because they would rather be in the barracks with the guys. Sparta basically was running out of Spartans.

I'd also like to chime in and say that the leather briefs were only added into the film because the directors didn't think male viewers would want to see 300 phalluses just hanging out there on screen. Historically, save for their helmets, capes, and sandals, the Spartans fought in the nude. That probably would've made the film a no-go however, so they had to come up with some form of covering them up without totally killing accuracy. Enter ancient underpants

Female armour is what it is because the lines of the female body are truly a work of art. You don't like women body? shame on you. I don't think we see many real exaggerations with female armor. The witch hunter armours are based on finely detailed corsets made to be worn on the clothes, sure it's not normal to wear corset-like beautiful armor but in fantasy male armour is also over the top and nobody seems to complain.

You think that's practical armour? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50013&prodId=prod790890

Certainly that guy wears something totally normal with no exaggerations... http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50005&prodId=prod790848

I don't see what's wrong with this, the armour is base on clothing, sure it's not practical for fighting but it's a pretty display armour and most fantasy armour are based on display armour rather than actual combat armour. http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/10459/840914-sister_of_battle_color_large.jpg

metallifan wrote:

I'd also like to chime in and say that the leather briefs were only added into the film because the directors didn't think male viewers would want to see 300 phalluses just hanging out there on screen. Historically, save for their helmets, capes, and sandals, the Spartans fought in the nude. That probably would've made the film a no-go however, so they had to come up with some form of covering them up without totally killing accuracy. Enter ancient underpants

Sorry, this is the weirdest historical mistake I've ever heard. One of the reasons all the Greeks did so well at pitched battles, and one of the reasons only a certain class of men could fight as hoplites, is that everyone was wearing a load of bronze armour. I have no idea where you're getting the whole nude thing from. Honestly, how do you think a city becomes the biggest power in Greece if they're the only ones who haven't realised they forgot their clothes at home?

In the comics, the Spartans were nude. But the comic is based on another movie('The 300 Spartans' - 1962), which is based on a very romanticised version of the actual history.

Things were lost in translation.

Legion wrote:

Why is armour in video games usually sexist?

Every entertainment meduim embraces sexuality in some form or another, and any or all of this could be interpreted as sexist.

Personally, I just like the titties.

^ This made me laugh! ^
Female armour tends to not actually armour in video games as most gamers are tenns and male.
Male means that most of the time they like girls.

poipo32 wrote:Female armour is what it is because the lines of the female body are truly a work of art. You don't like women body? shame on you.

If you think that anyone who doesn't want to only see female characters that have been stripped of their effective gear and turned into sex objects doesn't like women's bodies, I think you have serious social problems.

You think that's practical armour? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50013&prodId=prod790890

No, but at least it covers his vitals.

Certainly that guy wears something totally normal with no exaggerations... http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat50005&prodId=prod790848

No, but at least it covers his vitals.

How on Terra would you tell the SoB from the SM if the armour was the same? While I agree that a woman (Red Sonja) in a chainmail bikini is way OTT, its the same with Conan and his fuzzy loincloth. You need to see the indentation of the female-tailored armour so you needn't spend several minutes deciding whether you call your model a he of a she.

And, as mentioned many times above, Sex sells, there's no two ways around it. The gender used depends on the target audience, if the targets are women, then a male model is used, while in video games and wargames, the target is most definitely the male population, from late teens to mid-20s, the period of time where a guy says "whoah, boobies", so characters like Bayonetta, Red Sonja, and Lara Croft brandish bowling balls strapped to their chests.

Successful marketing strategy? Sure. Sexist? Yep. Realistic? Hardly.

While I don't agree with it, you can't say it doesn't work, and pointing it out if like saying "oh look! Final Fantasy characters are largely angsty spiky-haired teenagers with over-compensatory swords!" We all already know it, we're hoping it's gonna go away, but trying to point it out to us is repetitively redundant.

I find RPGs that only have one player mode , rather than a party e.g dragon age to have uni-sex armour . You can still see some of the defined curves, but overall its not too bad. I think its just easier for programmers sometimes, just having a default armour .

Female fighters dont need armor, they factor in the sex deprved soldier bearing down at them suddenly stopping to gawk at the hawtness and starts drooling, rusting their own weapons, while the women walks up and sexily skewers them with her blade and continues on, it's the succubus constant effect or SCE for short

And if she's really hot they would prolly just let her kill them, after all, its so hard to destroy something beautiful...

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

metallifan wrote:

I'd also like to chime in and say that the leather briefs were only added into the film because the directors didn't think male viewers would want to see 300 phalluses just hanging out there on screen. Historically, save for their helmets, capes, and sandals, the Spartans fought in the nude. That probably would've made the film a no-go however, so they had to come up with some form of covering them up without totally killing accuracy. Enter ancient underpants

Sorry, this is the weirdest historical mistake I've ever heard. One of the reasons all the Greeks did so well at pitched battles, and one of the reasons only a certain class of men could fight as hoplites, is that everyone was wearing a load of bronze armour. I have no idea where you're getting the whole nude thing from. Honestly, how do you think a city becomes the biggest power in Greece if they're the only ones who haven't realised they forgot their clothes at home?

This is quite correct, and actually gets towards the real fact of the matter. 300 uses naked Spartans not because they actually left their panoply at home, but because the Greeks depicted their warriors as fighting naked in thier artwork because they liked the way it looked. In otherwords, the culture of the time desired stylized portrayals of idealized warriors whooping up with they helmets up over their heads (not down over their faces) their perfect bodies exposed to be seen and admired, not covered in 1/4" of bronze.

The same factor is at play in current representations of "armor". No Norseman ever ran around in just a loincloth and helmet, save perhaps in the summer. 1: It is bloody cold up there most of the time. 2: Even when it is warm you need cover at night, in the rain, etc. While VERY old warriors (circa Rome) might have run around naked to show off during battle, by the middle ages most people going to war were wearing and carrying what they could. But we often see such representations of men. Likewise, no one wore the crazy spiked armor you see on anything "BADWRONCHAOSRAWR!" Having 3 foot horns and 6 inch spikes sticking out of your armor is not practical, nor is wearing 300 pounds of steel. But again, look at chaos warriors from GW, or really any "EEEEEEVIL" model from any maker. Likely they are wearing armor that is completely impractical for moving around in, even if it would likely stop a rifle round.
Similarly, no woman who went to war after a certain point did so naked. They would dress according the standards of their time. However, just as overly wrought armor with spikes bigger than your arm or naked except for a loin cloth is popular for male armor, so is decorative "Look at how I am a woman!" armor is popular for women. Big and tough and warlike is what the culture expects from warrior men, and sleek and sexy is what it expects from warrior women. That both of those notions have little bearing on reality is besides the point.

Also, sexist is not synonymous with sexy. Porno armor is just a sylistic choice. Amusingly, it should probably be argued that it is a great step up from historical reality, considering that most women involved in armies were camp followers. If you want realism, the VAST majority of your women should be washing clothing, preparing meals and doing various sex work. Personally, I think women warriors in silly dress up armor is an improvement to "camp whore," but then I like smart, tough women more than prostitutes

(not directed at anyone in particular)

Grow up. If you can't see half naked DRAWN/CG/PLASTIC/METAL women without complaining that it's sexist then I'm surprised you can even survive in today's society.
I understand the argument point of this thread/dakka discussions and how argument is good etc. etc. but after 4 pages it's just the same points over and over (oh wait... ).

Even my female friends (see how I avoided girl friends there? HAH no jokes to be made...) laugh/don't care when they see stuff like this. The ones into anime even like it as it fits the style and... (heres where I tune out because I don't like anime).

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

metallifan wrote:

I'd also like to chime in and say that the leather briefs were only added into the film because the directors didn't think male viewers would want to see 300 phalluses just hanging out there on screen. Historically, save for their helmets, capes, and sandals, the Spartans fought in the nude. That probably would've made the film a no-go however, so they had to come up with some form of covering them up without totally killing accuracy. Enter ancient underpants

Sorry, this is the weirdest historical mistake I've ever heard. One of the reasons all the Greeks did so well at pitched battles, and one of the reasons only a certain class of men could fight as hoplites, is that everyone was wearing a load of bronze armour. I have no idea where you're getting the whole nude thing from. Honestly, how do you think a city becomes the biggest power in Greece if they're the only ones who haven't realised they forgot their clothes at home?

Feel free to look it up yourself then, but Wehr already corrected you.

But at least know the facts before telling someone they made a mistake.

Likewise, no one wore the crazy spiked armor you see on anything "BADWRONCHAOSRAWR!" Having 3 foot horns and 6 inch spikes sticking out of your armor is not practical, nor is wearing 300 pounds of steel. But again, look at chaos warriors from GW, or really any "EEEEEEVIL" model from any maker. Likely they are wearing armor that is completely impractical for moving around in, even if it would likely stop a rifle round.

Yea but without spikes, how do we tell how evil they are? I mean, they have demons, they're bloodthirsty, some have got mutations, they wear armour covered in skulls and glyphs, and everything they own is usually bloodstained and/or has dead bodies hanging from it, but we need something -obvious- that tells us they're evil. Nothing says "Bad guys" like oversized spikes on your armour. Without the spikes, people might mistake them for good guys

ok think about this your a male space marine in pitched battle with a hot dark eldar chixk in porno plate your distracted she strikes your dead haha kudos to the woman

plaugerat wrote:ok think about this your a male space marine in pitched battle with a hot dark eldar chixk in porno plate your distracted she strikes your dead haha kudos to the woman

No Punctuation for you!

CrazyThang wrote:Grow up. If you can't see half naked DRAWN/CG/PLASTIC/METAL women without complaining that it's sexist then I'm surprised you can even survive in today's society.
I understand the argument point of this thread/dakka discussions and how argument is good etc. etc. but after 4 pages it's just the same points over and over (oh wait... ).

Yes, there's a reason those same points are being made over and over. Because a lot of you people are fundamentally misunderstanding your opponents. This isn't aversion to seeing half-naked women.

It's about context. If there's a good reason for the women to be half-naked, then we have no problem. But for a lot of people in this hobby, they want to see "tough" women (with the proportions of supermodels and no bulging muscles, natch) in armour that exposes them to the point that it serves no purpose. They want to strip the female characters of anything that truly makes them effective in battle and render them as pointless eye-candy. For no good reason. No context. There are a few women in gaming and no doubt a couple of you know some girls who don't mind that kind of thing, but it creates an undesired environment for many women. Not so much that they are offended, but more "Why would I ever want to get involved with that?" It makes gaming look childish.

And then gamers turn around and whinge about how they're so lonely and can't meet girls through playing with toy soldiers. This is why. Because they have created an environment where most female characters exist purely to appeal to them sexually and as we've seen in this thread, resent even the mere discussion that this doesn't have to be the only way.

Anyway, I've said my piece. I'm done with this thread. Just remember this: The next time you feel like you have to keep your hobby secret from some attractive woman because you're afraid of how it might look to them, think about why that would be.

You people eh?

Hmm.... well I wanted to disregard the rest of your post but I read it anyway and must say 2 words:

fantasy game

So instead of bashing "my side" and assuming what I think, try to view it from "my side's" angle. As a second point I must say, your very argument kills itself. Fantasy context is in fact scantily clad women doing crazy stuff as well as super muscle men doing equally crazy stuff in a FAKE setting. So yeah. Not real life.

Also I'm surprised no one posted this:

CrazyThang wrote:You people eh?

Hmm.... well I wanted to disregard the rest of your post but I read it anyway and must say 2 words:

fantasy game

So instead of bashing "my side" and assuming what I think, try to view it from "my side's" angle. As a second point I must say, your very argument kills itself. Fantasy context is in fact scantily clad women doing crazy stuff as well as super muscle men doing equally crazy stuff in a FAKE setting. So yeah. Not real life.

well formulated arguement my friend.

@JOHIRA Women in fantasy setttings are often treated very differently than women in "real life"
you have the archtypes of the damsel and of the "lady fighter"
the damsel is either a scantily clad hussie for the hero or a stuck up lady.
the lady fighters is usually a "hag" or a "guy" as in she's not feminine, but is an equal.
oh and as for the childish aspect of this hobby, your playing with plastic toy soldiers, doesn't exactly woo the college girls like you would imagine

metallifan wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

metallifan wrote:

I'd also like to chime in and say that the leather briefs were only added into the film because the directors didn't think male viewers would want to see 300 phalluses just hanging out there on screen. Historically, save for their helmets, capes, and sandals, the Spartans fought in the nude. That probably would've made the film a no-go however, so they had to come up with some form of covering them up without totally killing accuracy. Enter ancient underpants

Sorry, this is the weirdest historical mistake I've ever heard. One of the reasons all the Greeks did so well at pitched battles, and one of the reasons only a certain class of men could fight as hoplites, is that everyone was wearing a load of bronze armour. I have no idea where you're getting the whole nude thing from. Honestly, how do you think a city becomes the biggest power in Greece if they're the only ones who haven't realised they forgot their clothes at home?

Feel free to look it up yourself then, but Wehr already corrected you.

But at least know the facts before telling someone they made a mistake.

What the devil? Unless I'm going blind or mad, Wehrkind agreed, and then pointed out that lots of contemporary artwork shows Greeks fighting in the nude for artistic reasons. This is correct, maybe I should've mentioned it in my post. I'm sorry if I came off as overly dismissive or something, I'm not trying to get at you. But you did say "Historically, save for their helmets, capes, and sandals, the Spartans fought in the nude" which is categorically incorrect. I don't know where you get your information, but every single book and professor I've ever read/heard is of the opinion that the Spartans did wear normal hoplite armour.

Just Dave wrote:You seem surprised?

Maybe it's just me being cynical, but as with all things like that, it's there because it will sell. People that play video and tabletop games don't exactly have the best reputations in regards to women (cue threads about a woman being in the LGS).

It just gives the consumer another opportunity to look at breasts and therefore a reason to buy the game. simple as that.

Which I am undeniably happy with

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:What the devil? Unless I'm going blind or mad, Wehrkind agreed, and then pointed out that lots of contemporary artwork shows Greeks fighting in the nude for artistic reasons. This is correct, maybe I should've mentioned it in my post. I'm sorry if I came off as overly dismissive or something, I'm not trying to get at you. But you did say "Historically, save for their helmets, capes, and sandals, the Spartans fought in the nude" which is categorically incorrect. I don't know where you get your information, but every single book and professor I've ever read/heard is of the opinion that the Spartans did wear normal hoplite armour.

Bah, sorry. I did misinterpret tone. No harm done? Anyway, late Spartans certainly did wear armour. But around the time of the battle of Thermopylae, Spartan Soldiers were known to go to battle in the buff. This was not -always- the case, but according to the Proffessor of the History course that the Girlfriend took, earlier Spartans would, from time to time, fight nude. Thermopylae (The setting of 300, for those unaware) was, I'm told, one of those cases. It served as a strong tool of intimidation when used. The fact that the Spartans seemed to believe they would not need a full set of armour would often unnerve opponents, or goad them on - causing them to make fatal mistakes.

metallifan wrote:Thermopylae (The setting of 300, for those unaware) was, I'm told, one of those cases.

Then whoever told her(and/or you) that was wrong. The history(from both sides) even states that they were wearing armour, which was part of the reason that they were so successful: the Persians had a hard time penetrating bronze shields and armor with their weapons, where as the heavier Spartan spears penetrated the Persian Wicker shields and cloth armor with ease. It was simply a case of Heavy Infantry in a defendable position vs waves and waves of inferiorly equipped light infantry.

My friends and I took an Anthro class on Sparta several years ago. The funny thing is that the studio actually had accurate Spartan armor made for 300 before Gerard Butler bulked up. They sold it to the History Channel(which then used it for their documentary, "The Last Stand of the 300").

Platuan4th wrote:

metallifan wrote:Thermopylae (The setting of 300, for those unaware) was, I'm told, one of those cases.

Then whoever told her(and/or you) that was wrong. The history(from both sides) even states that they were wearing armour, which was part of the reason that they were so successful: the Persians had a hard time penetrating bronze shields and armor with their weapons, where as the heavier Spartan spears penetrated the Persian Wicker shields and cloth armor with ease. It was simply a case of Heavy Infantry in a defendable position vs waves and waves of inferiorly equipped light infantry.

My friends and I took an Anthro class on Sparta several years ago. The funny thing is that the studio actually had accurate Spartan armor made for 300 before Gerard Butler bulked up. They sold it to the History Channel(which then used it for their documentary, "The Last Stand of the 300").

Interesting... Considering how much she paid for her course, I hope she sees this and pops a big "WTF" on the Professor. I know I will if she doesn't.

Here's why Female Armour is sexist. Because 90% of all games are targeted at obese, twenty-somethings without girlfriends who are prone to sexual fantasies.
By giving female characters impracticle but appealing armour, said twenty-somethings will buy the game.

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:Here's why Female Armour is sexist. Because 90% of all games are targeted at obese, twenty-somethings without girlfriends who are prone to sexual fantasies.
By giving female characters impracticle but appealing armour, said twenty-somethings will buy the game.

Excessive generalization...

metallifan wrote:
Interesting... Considering how much she paid for her course, I hope she sees this and pops a big "WTF" on the Professor. I know I will if she doesn't.

I've paid for a lot of bs courses too, but when they're required to graduate...

But the flaws with our education systems are something best reserved for another topic.

poipo32 wrote:

Boss 'eadbreaka wrote:Here's why Female Armour is sexist. Because 90% of all games are targeted at obese, twenty-somethings without girlfriends who are prone to sexual fantasies.
By giving female characters impracticle but appealing armour, said twenty-somethings will buy the game.

Excessive generalization...

qft...

EDIT
Damn sorry for the 4 day bump... it's early...