23223
Post by: Monster Rain
I was again disappointed when comparing the "ZOMG THE SKY IZ FALLING [insert unit from new codex here] WILL DESTROY US ALL" that I read on forums with in-game reality. In this case the over-hyped unit was none other than Mephiston of the Blood Angels.
If he's not hiding, he's being smooshed with Thunder Hammers or rendered into a greasy spot on the table with meltaguns. He's tough, but the lack of an invulnerable save is just unforgivable. Just thought I'd throw that out there. The Sanguinor is a hell of a lot better in my opinion. Anyone agree? Disagree?
10855
Post by: nyyman
But the Transfixing Gaze + hell loaf of attacks + force weapon instakilling anything does seem kinda scary...
The only lack is that he can't use every power, only three of them.
But one of them is Sword of Sanguinius so yeah, expect lots of insta-killing.
25983
Post by: Jackal
Ok, you have posted what tons have people have said so far, whats new? 0_o
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
Yeah, I mean he swooped in and thrashed a tactical squad that was on an objective.
Then I drove my LR up and he ate Thunderhammers like it was going out of style. I was pretty underwhelmed, really.
10855
Post by: nyyman
I was just saying that there is a reason that Mephiston is being feared by multi-wounded non-Eternal Warrior models.
What was the last question in OPs post?
"Anyone agree? Disagree?"
I just answered the question with an explination.
1963
Post by: Aduro
Any time he's not the table he should have a 4+ Cover Save and Feel No Pain, because if you're going to spend that many points on him, he darn well better be sitting in the middle of an Assault Squad with a Sanguinary Priest near by. That requires an average of 19 Melta Gun (or other other Str8 AP2 guns) to take down, while anything less than that is rendered almost useless.
Once he gets into HtH, he's a beast. With the Jump Pack ability, he's going to be nearly as manuverable as the Terminators in a Land Raider, so if you should be able to avoid those TH/SS Termies that will smoosh him so badly, and hit other targets that are not quite as tough, though him and his buddies would still cause massive damage to those if they did engage them.
25983
Post by: Jackal
Then I drove my LR up and he ate Thunderhammers like it was going out of style. I was pretty underwhelmed, really.
So you threw a unit nearly twice his points at him to manage to kill him.
And that is after he ruined your tac squad.
To be honest, i'd say he done fine, however, the player needs a good slap for putting him anywhere near a LR.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Then I drove my LR up and he ate Thunderhammers like it was going out of style. I was pretty underwhelmed, really.
So you threw a unit nearly twice his points at him to manage to kill him.
And that is after he ruined your tac squad.
To be honest, i'd say he done fine, however, the player needs a good slap for putting him anywhere near a LR.
Actually, 5 Terminators cost 50 points less since the LR wasn't involved in the CC andI wouldn't say "managed to kill him" as much as "swatted him like a fly." I would much rather face Mephiston than say, Abaddon or Marneus Calgar in the same situation.
And did my opponent deserve a slap, or do I deserve kudos for a devious trap? 
Aduro wrote:Any time he's not the table he should have a 4+ Cover Save and Feel No Pain, because if you're going to spend that many points on him, he darn well better be sitting in the middle of an Assault Squad with a Sanguinary Priest near by. That requires an average of 19 Melta Gun (or other other Str8 AP2 guns) to take down, while anything less than that is rendered almost useless.
Once he gets into HtH, he's a beast. With the Jump Pack ability, he's going to be nearly as manuverable as the Terminators in a Land Raider, so if you should be able to avoid those TH/SS Termies that will smoosh him so badly, and hit other targets that are not quite as tough, though him and his buddies would still cause massive damage to those if they did engage them.
Yeah, actually that's what happened for a lot of the game. My opponent had to shake things up a bit because I was holding a lot more objectives than him and the game was drawing to a close.
I'm not saying he's bad. I'm just saying I was a bit disappointed by how easily he folded.
10335
Post by: Razerous
He is not a squad of SS/TH termies, so ofc he will easily fold vs crazy firepower.
If they landraiders allowed the termies to get the charge, ofc it was involved.
He seems like a fun kettle of fish.
11422
Post by: Iron_Chaos_Brute
Color me shocked. There's a reason he's not in any of my lists... 
19445
Post by: Warboss Gutrip
Memphiston is not scary. I will have said it before and I will say it again, if my 1000pt kan wall list can gun him down in one turn, he is not OTT.
That said, PEOPLE SHOULD TAKE HIM AT 500PTS! That is where he is broken.
11273
Post by: Alerian
Aduro wrote:Any time he's not the table he should have a 4+ Cover Save and Feel No Pain, because if you're going to spend that many points on him, he darn well better be sitting in the middle of an Assault Squad with a Sanguinary Priest near by. That requires an average of 19 Melta Gun (or other other Str8 AP2 guns) to take down, while anything less than that is rendered almost useless.
Meph is NOT an IC. He cannot join squads....ever. Your post is very, very misleading 
Meph must run alone, and as such is bait for any firepower unit he faces. Also, Hoods and RoW also severely hamper his psychic abilities, so don't count on him having all 3 powers unless oyu are facing an army with no psychic defense.
So yes, Mephiston is full of fail.
1963
Post by: Aduro
Meph is not a Monstrous Creature so if you surround him by whatever unit he would normally have joined, he'll get a 4+ cover save. As well, he's still a Unit of 1 and will benefit from FNP if he's within range of the Sanguinory Priest.
11273
Post by: Alerian
The point of the post is that you shoot him wihth AP2 weapons....he will not benefit from the Sang Priest, because such weapons ignore FNP....period.
He is the biggest joke in the dex....I pray that my opponents bring him instead of the others trhings they could have spenthispoint son..my game just got alot easier 
1963
Post by: Aduro
Yes, but even with AP2 it takes you that average 19 shots to I'll him if he's escorted propperly. Not to Mention that propperly escort wll keep you from assaulting him as well.
25360
Post by: ductvader
Solution to almost any character...Grey Knight Grand Master.
13705
Post by: the_ferrett
Zzapp gun, snotzogger (SAG), grots.
24707
Post by: Hesperus
What, you mean a 250pt model doesn't auto-win the game? Big surprise. Run him in the right list, though, and Mephiston's pretty nasty.
For instance, take him with 3 librarian dreads. Fly them up a wing together, hiding him behind them. Eat said wing.
I know it's 775 points, but it's 775 points your opponent better freaking shoot - and good luck using melta, when you've got an 18" charge and 3/4 of your guys have Blood Lance.
11273
Post by: Alerian
Hesperus wrote:What, you mean a 250pt model doesn't auto-win the game? Big surprise. Run him in the right list, though, and Mephiston's pretty nasty.
For instance, take him with 3 librarian dreads. Fly them up a wing together, hiding him behind them. Eat said wing.
I know it's 775 points, but it's 775 points your opponent better freaking shoot - and good luck using melta, when you've got an 18" charge and 3/4 of your guys have Blood Lance.
Correction....
That is 775 points that loses most of its effectiveness as soon as they face one Hood or RoW....that is my point. For BA to spend a huge chunk of points on a single psyker with all of the psychic defense out there is just plain stupid. Meph will get only get off 1.5 powers a turn, and the dreads will fair worse. If Meph cannot use all 3 powers a turn, then he is a complete waste of points.
If this dex was released 2-3 years ago, Meph would have been alot scarier, however, with SW's RPs and Nid's Shadows, combined with IG/ SM/ DA Hoods and Eldar RoW, there are far fewer armies that he will be useful against. Almost every tourney list of these forces WILL have psychic defenses. This leaves Meph as being useful against a small list of armies/opponents...this is why he is fail.
Now, add in the huge increase in AP1-2 weapons in the metagame, as well as THs/Rending/etc (to deal with vehicles, MCs and FNP) and Meph becomes an even worse choice, due to his lack of an invul save....250 points and a complete lack of an invul save makes him an even bigger fail.
By the time you pay for everything to TRY to make him work (escorts/ LR/etc) you have put way too many eggs in one basket....a no-invul/able to be shut down by psychic defense basket at that. If you instead spent all those points on more reliable and durable units than Meph, you would have a much stronger list.
3330
Post by: Kirasu
Thats why Im really not using mephiston for 'ard boyz.. Too easy to make a lot less effective
Id probably take dante before mephiston because atleast Dante has metagame possibilities and some oddball abilities
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
The Sanguinor is the thing that's actually ridiculous for BA HQs.
I officially hate that thing.
6872
Post by: sourclams
Every time a new codex comes out, there's the inevitable Chicken Little crowd running about screaming at the brokenness of whatever the new unit/combo is.
And then, just as inevitably, there's the anti-Chicken Little crowd that puts out all the reasons why that same unit/combo sucks.
Mephiston is not Instawin, but he's certainly not Fail, either. If you use him stupidly, he won't perform. Period. If you use him intelligently, taking advantage of LOS behind vehicles or giving him cover with screening models (both of which are ridiculously easy to do) then he is a punishing beat-stick, mobile and tough enough that it's very difficult to bog him down.
And he's not in the least shut down by a psychic hood or by the AP1/2 meta. I tried him out in a game against a very competitive SW player yesterday who not only had an abundance of AP1/2 but also a DH old school psychic hood and a runic staff. I was still able to get off the occasional power, and Fleet compensates nicely if Wings get nullified. In close combat he wrecked a Lone Wolf and a Tcav squad before eventually taking another thunderhammer wound after a very long, drawn-out combat.
Five wounds and T6 does, in fact, largely make up for a lack of Invuln save. If you're dumb enough to let torrent of melta fire or a squad of TH terminators charge Meph every game, then be absolutely unsurprised when he goes down and 'Fails'.
As is, he's a reliable and useful psychic hood and close combat monster. He's not a must-take, but you don't lose much by throwing him in as your only HQ. He's balanced.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:The Sanguinor is the thing that's actually ridiculous for BA HQs.
I officially hate that thing.
In a dreadnought-heavy list or in conjunction with Death Company/Sanguinary Guard the Sanguinor's +1 Attack is a huge, huge bonus. He's also not a shabby close combatant. His use isn't as obvious as Meph, but I could certainly build an 'Ard Boyz list around the Sanguinor.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
sourclams wrote:
Five wounds and T6 does, in fact, largely make up for a lack of Invuln save. If you're dumb enough to let torrent of melta fire or a squad of TH terminators charge Meph every game, then be absolutely unsurprised when he goes down and 'Fails'./quote]
It's not a matter of being "dumb."
It's the old problem of whoever commits their good unit first is going to lose it. Sometimes one doesn't have a choice in the matter due to the events in the game leading up to Mephiston being force-fed a few Thunder Hammers. I was just saying that there's HQ units out there that are comparably killy that don't die nearly as easily.
RoW would be a big problem for him, with his total lack of an Invul save and the likelihood of Perils of the Warp wounds when you're casting 3 Powers a turn. 
11452
Post by: willydstyle
Comparing him to Phoenix Lords who are T4 and 3 wounds with no invuln for similar prices makes Eldar players cry. He also brings a psychic hood to the table, and does not fear being within 24" of the enemy, so even if he's not using his own powers he is still capable of affecting the game.
6872
Post by: sourclams
Against an Eldar player I wouldn't even use powers. Fleet and T/S6 works just fine on its own.
And regarding the problem of committing your good unit first, that's Meph's real strength. He's only 250 points. The rest of your army will perform just fine if all Meph does is sits out of LOS behind a rhino and provides psychic hood coverage. The same is not true for anyone fielding TH Terms in any capacity, as the Terminators themselves cost upward of 300 points and they're typically in a Land Raider costing upward of 250 points. If your HQ is riding along, it's impossible to say 'well I'll just not deploy in case Mephiston comes out'.
In short, yes, if you're always getting charged by an elite CC unit capable of killing off Meph, then you are playing really, really dumb. It'll happen occasionally, but not in the majority of cases unless he's already 'done his job' so to speak.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
Meph needs a cover save, and should be screened by a squad to give him a cover save.
GW did know what they were doing when they made him.
3 wounds with a 4+ invo save (Most other space marine HQs) is better against anti tank weapons than 5 wounds with no invo.
5 wounds with no invo and a 4+ cover save is better than 3 wounds a 4+ cover and a 4+ invo save as the cover and invo save both being 4+ are redundant.
Mephiston seems like he is priced correctly, because he needs to be used correctly. If he's used correctly he should be well worth his points, and if he is used poorly meph can be killed before he earns his points back.
23429
Post by: Zeroth
Funny how so many over at Dakka see him as bad, while over at Warseer there's a thread of nearly only worshipping towards him. I'd say he's badass. And if my mate, whom I know can play this game. Use him and use him correctly, I will be afraid.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253726
18176
Post by: Guitardian
willydstyle wrote:Comparing him to Phoenix Lords who are T4 and 3 wounds with no invuln for similar prices makes Eldar players cry. He also brings a psychic hood to the table, and does not fear being within 24" of the enemy, so even if he's not using his own powers he is still capable of affecting the game.
Amen.
But then again, we don't take phoenix lords in 'competative' waac lists. They are drasticly overpriced and completely inferior to meph, but I guess that's why we have Eldrad to make up for it . I sometimes run a phoenix lord just for fun friendly store games because I think they give me 'coolness' points... but in general, I don't think anyone uses them other than to add character to an army that would otherwise be a spam of wave serpents full of Avengers and Dragons.
The Eldar list has many inferiorities in certain choices of some things compared to the more modern books, but the ones that work really REALLY work in a way the more flexible but less all-or-nothing BA will never have, so I can't complain about mismatched points in special characters who seldom get used. All that would accomplish is that they can then whine back about my 195 point serpent full of fusion gun toting dragons easilly offing their land raider full of termies every time. Each Codex has a few gems and a few 'take it because you just think it's cool'. I don't think meph is bad, haven't seen him in action yet though, I just think he's not one of those 'gem' units either.
25983
Post by: Jackal
If you want to bring a hood to the table then you dont buy a 250 point one that cant hide in a unit
His uses seem great for the cost.
Just move about terrain picking on small units of semi-elite or lower models.
Or throw him at other characters and watch him slaughter them with ease.
Failing that, tank hunting with him is also fair game, just avoid walkers since they tend to hurt if not killed
Im not a BA player, but i would fething hate to see him used on the table against my nids or orks.
With nids, im not 100% sure how i'd tackle him.
With orks, it would be ghaz attacking on his waaagh! turn (would need to pin meph in place with a sacrifice unit)
Even then, im not sure a 2+ inv save and 7 S10 attacks would do the job.
6011
Post by: ihockert
Mephiston is a strong but balanced unit. Sure TH/SS termies will probably take him down but they take down most units so that is not saying a heck of a whole lot. The fact of the matter is he provides psychic defense, is a unit that is going to be damn hard to down with a torrent of fire, and has a good chance of eliminating most enemy characters in close combat due to his powers and transfixing gaze. His lack of IC status is also a blessing and a curse. Sure he can't join but that likewise means you don't have to configure one for him to join. He also makes a great distraction because heavy hitter units are required to bring him down. Having a single model that can make a LR full of TH/SS termies divert from their current job can be a valuable tool in the hands of a canny general.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Even then, im not sure a 2+ inv save and 7 S10 attacks would do the job.
Let me put your mind at ease, fair brother.
Ghazhkull would whipsmack Mephiston's cheeks.
6872
Post by: sourclams
If Non-Waagh Ghazkull gets charged by Meph, he gets absolutely murdered.
If Waagh Ghazkull charges Meph, not only does Ghaz win by a wide margin, but the BA player is dumb for letting a S&P Terminator get anywhere near him.
This is the part that I can't get over. Yes, there are many scenarios where Meph dies a flaming death. The bulk of those scenarios, however, rely on massive incompetence on behalf of the BA player.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
sourclams wrote:If Non-Waagh Ghazkull gets charged by Meph, he gets absolutely murdered.
Ghazkull can invoke the Waagh in the opponent's turn.
18115
Post by: kitsunez
meph with a squad of IC in a storm raven took out a defiler, two rhinos, and two nurgle squads.... he's not the end all unit you guys can just go "whoopie look what I did, I killed a big baddie" No if the player has any brains he'll target prioritize, make sure he's got meph matched up with points and given FNP and then with his superior initiative attacks, strength, and insta kill he can put a dent into anything your smart enough to match it with. IG weren't the end all OP army, space wolves weren't the end all OP army, tyranids weren't the end all OP army, and BA are not either so people don't need to be celebrating every single victory over every piece of overpriced model in a non-overpowered army
6872
Post by: sourclams
Monster Rain wrote:sourclams wrote:If Non-Waagh Ghazkull gets charged by Meph, he gets absolutely murdered.
Ghazkull can invoke the Waagh in the opponent's turn.
And? A BA player would be absolutely nuts to charge a Ghaz with a WAAAGH! remaining.
So yes, if the BA player is dumb, he can easily get Meph killed.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
sourclams wrote:Monster Rain wrote:sourclams wrote:If Non-Waagh Ghazkull gets charged by Meph, he gets absolutely murdered.
Ghazkull can invoke the Waagh in the opponent's turn.
And? A BA player would be absolutely nuts to charge a Ghaz with a WAAAGH! remaining.
So yes, if the BA player is dumb, he can easily get Meph killed.
And a good Ork player is smart with his WAAGH!
What's the point of this line of conversation? Yeah, good players make better use of their units than bad ones. Not exactly shocking anyone here, are we?
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
I think I'd be more interested to see how many rounds Mephiston can go with Chaos Space Marine characters, particularly Abbadon. I think I'm going to crunch some numbers for it...
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
Nurglitch wrote:I think I'd be more interested to see how many rounds Mephiston can go with Chaos Space Marine characters, particularly Abbadon. I think I'm going to crunch some numbers for it...
I'm guessing that he'll paste all of them but Abaddon. The Despoiler, if he doesn't slit his own throat, will leave him face down in China Town.
6872
Post by: sourclams
Monster Rain wrote:sourclams wrote:Monster Rain wrote:sourclams wrote:If Non-Waagh Ghazkull gets charged by Meph, he gets absolutely murdered.
Ghazkull can invoke the Waagh in the opponent's turn.
And? A BA player would be absolutely nuts to charge a Ghaz with a WAAAGH! remaining.
So yes, if the BA player is dumb, he can easily get Meph killed.
And a good Ork player is smart with his WAAGH!
What's the point of this line of conversation? Yeah, good players make better use of their units than bad ones. Not exactly shocking anyone here, are we?
Since the title of this thread is 'Mephiston Fail', followed by numerous posts on how terribad Meph really is, it goes back to the whole 'if the BA player is dumb, Meph will die, but if he's not dumb Meph will have a lot more longevity' line of reasoning. A Ghazgkull Green Tide can't really afford to just sit on its Waagh! as insurance against Mephiston flying in to gank Ghaz. Similarly most other armies are only going to have a few of the weapons/units Meph is truly scared of like mass resilient power fists or plasma/melta fire, and being forced to position to take him out is a disadvantage all of its own.
Meph, on the other hand, is quite cheap compared to the units that he actually has to worry about, and a jack-of-all-trades CC unit that can make his presence felt no matter what he hits. He is, no matter how you slice it, a great HQ choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Monster Rain wrote:Nurglitch wrote:I think I'd be more interested to see how many rounds Mephiston can go with Chaos Space Marine characters, particularly Abbadon. I think I'm going to crunch some numbers for it...
I'm guessing that he'll paste all of them but Abaddon. The Despoiler, if he doesn't slit his own throat, will leave him face down in China Town.
If Meph charges Abby with preferred enemy/S10, he'll kill Abaddon at the top of the second assault with 1-2 wounds remaining if Abby rolls 5 or lower on his Daemon Weapon.
If Abby charges Meph with PE/S10, Abbadon will die at the top of the second assault if he rolls 4 or lower on his Daemon Weapon.
If Meph has no special powers up and charges Abby, Meph will die at the bottom of 2 and Abby should have 1-2 wounds left if he rolls more than 1 on his Daemon Weapon.
And if Meph with no powers gets charged, he could die at the bottom of 1 and Abby should have 3 wounds left if he rolls a 5+ for Daemon Weapon.
Abaddon actually has to roll unusually well for his Daemon Weapon to take out a naked Meph in 1-2 turns.
And if Meph has two powers up, he's going to "leave him face down in China Town" unless Abby rolls a 5+ for Daemon Weapon in the first round of assault if Abby is charging, and only a 6 will save him from horrible death if he gets charged.
People are way too hung up on Mephiston not having an invuln save. 5 wounds is a huge wound pool to have to chop through for any special character.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
sourclams wrote:
If Waagh Ghazkull charges Meph, not only does Ghaz win by a wide margin, but the BA player is dumb for letting a S&P Terminator get anywhere near him.
Please recall that on the Waagh!, Ghazghkull in a BW (which is the only way anyone ever takes him) has a charge radius of 23-28" (12" move, 2" disembark, 2" base, 6" Waagh! Run, 1-6" charge)
That's a really big circle to keep Meph away from, particularly since the whole Ork army is probably within it. So don't discount the possibility of Ghaz getting the charge as "the BA player is dumb". For one turn, at least, Ghaz actually has a longer reach (on average) than Mephiston does.
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
So, let's start with some reasonable assumptions. Mephiston has Ld10, and so passes his psychic tests 0.91 of the time, and suffers the Perils of the Warp 0.06 of the time. The Chaos Space Marine special characters are also uniformly Ld10, so they suffer from Mephiston's Transfixing Gaze 0.42, and escape it 0.58.
Against Abbadon, charging
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.75 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.50 to fail saves]
[0.83 Daemon Weapon, 6+ attacks][0.50 to hit][0.92 to wound with re-roll]
Against Kharn, charging
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.75 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.67 to fail saves][Instant Death]
[6 attacks][0.83 to hit][0.33 to wound]
Against Ahriman, charging
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.83 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.50 to fail saves][Instant Death]
[4 attacks][0.91 Warptime][0.67 defeats Psychic Hood][0.75 to hit with re-roll][0.25 to wound with re-roll]
Against Fabius Bile
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.83 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][Instant Death]
[5 attacks][0.50 to hit][0.33 to wound][0.17 to fail saves][Instant Death]
Against Lucius the Eternal
[5 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.75 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.67 to fail saves][Instant Death]
[0.33 any wounds become automatic hits if Lucius saves][0.17 to wound]
[4 attacks][0.50 to hit][0.17 to wound]
Against Typhus
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.83 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.67 to fail saves][Instant Death]
[0.83 Daemon Weapon, 5+ attacks][0.50 to hit][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.91 Force Weapon][0.67 getting through the psychic hood]
Against Huron
[6 attacks][0.91, Sanguine Sword][0.91, Unleash Rage][0.42 Transfixion][0.83 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll][0.67 to fail saves][Instant Death]
[3 attacks][0.91 Warptime][0.67 defeats Psychic Hood][0.75 to hit with re-roll][0.92 to wound with re-roll]
Are these numbers accurate?
13705
Post by: the_ferrett
Nurglitch - can you number crunch Mephiston Vs a SAG (scatter included), and vs a Zzapp gun battery? Just one shooting phase as if it gets to CC the above are toast.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
sourclams wrote:
If Meph charges Abby with preferred enemy/S10, he'll kill Abaddon at the top of the second assault with 1-2 wounds remaining if Abby rolls 5 or lower on his Daemon Weapon.
If Abby charges Meph with PE/S10, Abbadon will die at the top of the second assault if he rolls 4 or lower on his Daemon Weapon.
If Meph has no special powers up and charges Abby, Meph will die at the bottom of 2 and Abby should have 1-2 wounds left if he rolls more than 1 on his Daemon Weapon.
And if Meph with no powers gets charged, he could die at the bottom of 1 and Abby should have 3 wounds left if he rolls a 5+ for Daemon Weapon.
Abaddon actually has to roll unusually well for his Daemon Weapon to take out a naked Meph in 1-2 turns.
And if Meph has two powers up, he's going to "leave him face down in China Town" unless Abby rolls a 5+ for Daemon Weapon in the first round of assault if Abby is charging, and only a 6 will save him from horrible death if he gets charged.
People are way too hung up on Mephiston not having an invuln save. 5 wounds is a huge wound pool to have to chop through for any special character.
Yes, but wouldn't the Chaos player be "dumb" to allow any of these scenarios in which Abaddon dies to happen? Clearly only a substandard player would make such boneheaded mistakes.
6872
Post by: sourclams
You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways.
Abaddon has to be put into close combat for the Chaos player to get any use out of him whatsoever. Unlike Meph, he's a hugely expensive unit with no support utility that is slow as balls. Meph, by contrast, has a psychic hood, can move 12", and is fleet. All of these things give him a much larger mobility advantage than slow ICs like Abaddon and Ghaz. A BA player can afford to not commit Meph; CSM or Ork players can't really do the same with their ICs.
And in the offchance that Abby still gets the charge, if Meph has got PE/S10 up, he still wins the fight. He's a close combat powerhouse.
At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.
13705
Post by: the_ferrett
..... Ranged S10 hits?
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
sourclams wrote:You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways. ... At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.
Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack.
Also, nothing has been debunked. I asked if anyone agreed or disagreed. Clearly you disagree. Are you really that angry about imaginary Space Men with swords and the outcome of their deathmatch? 
18115
Post by: kitsunez
Monster Rain wrote:sourclams wrote:You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways. ... At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.
Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack.
Also, nothing has been debunked. I asked if anyone agreed or disagreed. Clearly you disagree. Are you really that angry about imaginary Space Men with swords and the outcome of their deathmatch?
With your raging hate-on for meph it makes me think you lost against him and you wanted to make yourself feel better
13705
Post by: the_ferrett
Heh. Lost a game with one of my only kills being Mephy. Then again, that's what happens with 2 years experience versing him. (Now how to kill a Honour guard)
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
kitsunez wrote:Monster Rain wrote:sourclams wrote:You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways. ... At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.
Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack.
Also, nothing has been debunked. I asked if anyone agreed or disagreed. Clearly you disagree. Are you really that angry about imaginary Space Men with swords and the outcome of their deathmatch?
With your raging hate-on for meph it makes me think you lost against him and you wanted to make yourself feel better
How'd you know? 
Had you read the OP, you'd know that it was quite the opposite. Also, if anyone ever feels the need to "make themselves feel better" in regard to any 40k Special Character they should really just end it.
18115
Post by: kitsunez
Monster Rain wrote:kitsunez wrote:Monster Rain wrote:sourclams wrote:You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways. ... At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.
Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack.
Also, nothing has been debunked. I asked if anyone agreed or disagreed. Clearly you disagree. Are you really that angry about imaginary Space Men with swords and the outcome of their deathmatch?
With your raging hate-on for meph it makes me think you lost against him and you wanted to make yourself feel better
How'd you know?
Had you read the OP, you'd know that it was quite the opposite. Also, if anyone ever feels the need to "make themselves feel better" in regard to any 40k Special Character they should really just end it.
personal attack removed.
6872
Post by: sourclams
Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack
From your OP:
Monster Rain wrote:
If he's not hiding, he's being smooshed with Thunder Hammers or rendered into a greasy spot on the table with meltaguns.
So which Thunder Hammers can Meph not out-fight (Thunderwulf Cav) or out-run (any other TH unit)? How exactly are 9 BS4 meltaguns getting within 12" of Meph to shoot while also circumventing cover from terrain or screening units?
In short, how exactly does one lose Meph in the manner your OP described without being a totally incompetent player?
13705
Post by: the_ferrett
SAG?
6872
Post by: sourclams
Heh, of course, the SAG......
13705
Post by: the_ferrett
I love my plasma powered orksies. Yet to kill Meph with loota fire yet. Got a wound on him with Gitz....
1963
Post by: Aduro
And do keep in mind, if you want to charge Meph, you need to nearly wipe out his screening unit with your shooting first, as they're going to be in your way to charge him, and him not being an IC means he doesn't have to pile in if you charge them.
13705
Post by: the_ferrett
Word to the wise - Meph eats a squad of boyz a turn almost. You don't let him get into range.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
the_ferrett wrote:Word to the wise - Meph eats a squad of boyz a turn almost. You don't let him get into range.
A 12 strong mob of truk boys yes, a 30 strong mob of foot boys no.
Round 1: If all 6 of Meph's attacks and 1 out of 6 to wounds is a 1 then 5 boys die. Nob's power claw should do 1.25 wounds per turn, and a little over 3.25 boys die from fearless
Round 2: Prefered enemy goes away. Meph only has 5 attacks 2/3 hit and 5/6 wound resulting in 2.9 wounds. Nob's power claw does 1.25 wounds, and about 1.5 boys die from fearless.
By the end of round 2 Meph is down 2.5 wounds, and 12.5 boys are dead (75 points of boys)
Round 3: Meph does another 2.9 wounds, claw does 1.25 wounds, and about 1.5 boys die from fearless.
Round 4: Meph does another 2.9 wounds, claw does 1.25 wounds, and the ork mob is no longer fearless because it's down to 10 orks
By the end of round 4 Meph is down 5 wounds and dead, so the works don't have to take a morale test. The mob is down 20 boys (120 points) to kill a 250 point CC monster.
Meph is a CC monster, but he only has 4 base attacks (+1 for 2 CC weapons) At 250 points it's a waste of his attacks to blow them on 6 point models.
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
sourclams wrote:Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack
From your OP:
Monster Rain wrote:
If he's not hiding, he's being smooshed with Thunder Hammers or rendered into a greasy spot on the table with meltaguns.
So which Thunder Hammers can Meph not out-fight (Thunderwulf Cav) or out-run (any other TH unit)? How exactly are 9 BS4 meltaguns getting within 12" of Meph to shoot while also circumventing cover from terrain or screening units?
In short, how exactly does one lose Meph in the manner your OP described without being a totally incompetent player?
Are we doing this again?
I've covered this... Your insistence that only a terrible player will get their expensive HQ killed is not necessarily true. Your main point, that Mephiston doesn't suck if used correctly is valid. I've conceded that point. I don't know what you're trying to accomplish. 
10335
Post by: Razerous
Monster Rain wrote:sourclams wrote:You're dissecting valid arguments and posting them in the most stupid, asinine ways. ... At this point I'd say the thread topic has been thoroughly debunked.
Hold on. You were the one that was blithely dismissing anyone that gets Mephiston killed in a game as a bad player. Don't try to turn this around on me, jack. Also, nothing has been debunked. I asked if anyone agreed or disagreed. Clearly you disagree. Are you really that angry about imaginary Space Men with swords and the outcome of their deathmatch?
The premise of this thread was just wrong. It would be similar (but more OTT) to have a thread called "Melta fail" for the same reasons. All subsequent posts that try to disagree or go around/evade the valid and fair comments made about meph's mobility, Beat-stick'ness and tactical flexibility are just pointless.
8052
Post by: Terminus
Monster Rain wrote:I was again disappointed when comparing the "ZOMG THE SKY IZ FALLING [insert unit from new codex here] WILL DESTROY US ALL" that I read on forums with in-game reality. In this case the over-hyped unit was none other than Mephiston of the Blood Angels.
If he's not hiding, he's being smooshed with Thunder Hammers or rendered into a greasy spot on the table with meltaguns. He's tough, but the lack of an invulnerable save is just unforgivable. Just thought I'd throw that out there. The Sanguinor is a hell of a lot better in my opinion. Anyone agree? Disagree?
Not sure if Sanguinor is much better. With only T4 and 4? wounds, even with a storm shield he is easy to gun down with basic guns (at least Meph needs something like hammers and meltas). Meph is also much easier to hide and is a monster in melee. On the other hand, the golden boy can deep strike, ALWAYS has his wings, and then there are his buffs.
Frankly, for their costs, both characters are quite lame compared to Wolves or SM. Except for Dante, and maybe 1 or 2 others, all BA characters are pretty weak.
18176
Post by: Guitardian
and thats why they get librarian dreads, assault squad troops, deep striking LAND raiders, Baal preds and so on. It has to balance out somehow, y'know? The army itself is ridiculous... is there anything SM can do that they can't do? but oh... "waaah waah our special characters aren't as easy-win."
I would trade Marneus and Shrike option for assault squad troops and deep striking LR any time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
so the special characters are comparatively weak. Maybe that was on purpose because the rest of the list is so ridiculously strong. Think how the Tau must feel when comparing their hero characters...
26286
Post by: Fl@nked
I WAS afraid of him, until I rememebered that i'm imperial guard, and he still has thousands of guardsmen to sift through before I start paying attention.
11422
Post by: Iron_Chaos_Brute
Fl@nked wrote:I WAS afraid of him, until I rememebered that i'm imperial guard, and he still has thousands of guardsmen to sift through before I start paying attention.
I'll start paying attention when you have thousands of Guardsmen on the table.
6872
Post by: sourclams
The special characters aren't actually that weak.
Tycho sucks as the death company version because he's not an IC. Seth is very dull, but "only" 160 points. Astorath doesn't add much to the army if you've already got a bajillion face-raping death company running about.
But I wouldn't say they're worse/less efficient than Tigurius, Khan, Njal, or Canis.
Mephiston is a support character who can conveniently also do bad, bad things in close combat.
Sanguinor is as expensive as a Calgar/Grimnar but is a HUGE force multiplier when paired with multiple dreadnoughts or Death Company.
Dante can unlock a decent CC as a troop and open up more Elite slots while also being a respectable combatant, and the no-scatter can be useful.
12478
Post by: Gornall
Mephiston >>>> Tigurius in almost every way.
18176
Post by: Guitardian
I think given the last few post praising the GOOD qualities of whichever character, it seems many other people like him just fine (hell he hits so hard if you can play him right and get into good position, but yeah he's vulnerable if you let that happen for him to be shot up) I just really don't see the problem. As an Eldar player I understand the necessity of precise use of precise unit for precise purpose. Maybe it is something former SM players who just jumped on the new shiney codex BA need to figure out. He is not at all bad... in fact, I can't think of anyone else who gets 10 S10 attacks...
Maybe its a learning curve thing. My guess is that BA players recently stopped using the (far superior) SM codex as a proxy instead of the crap WD version that was downloadable, poorly thought out, and weak. Now you have your own REAL codex, learn how to use it before declaring that your character is weak. He could beat Eldrads ass in a second, at approx the same points... heck he could beat down a squad of termies if he gets the charge and the powers... it seems like the whining is about his lack of invul, making you have to position and think differently than the standard marine stomp-up-the-middle-with-command-squad-nobody-can-hurt approach enjoyed by smurfs everywhere. Why is that so difficult? The guy kicks ass. You just have to learn how to use it. Trust me, I get frustrated by my Phoenix Lords and their comparative vulnerability, but then I look at the good things I have going for me, and it's all okay.
26286
Post by: Fl@nked
Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:Fl@nked wrote:I WAS afraid of him, until I rememebered that i'm imperial guard, and he still has thousands of guardsmen to sift through before I start paying attention.
I'll start paying attention when you have thousands of Guardsmen on the table.
Then you should start. Chenkov has as many men as he needs with SITNW.
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
Gornall wrote:Mephiston >>>> Tigurius in almost every way.
True, except for:
Joining a unit
Giving a bonus to reserves
Having access to more than four psychic powers (including his Force Weapon)
Leveraging the rest of the army via psychic powers
Not being a freakin' vampire
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
sourclams wrote:
Astorath doesn't add much to the army if you've already got a bajillion face-raping death company running about.
Oh, I don't know. Anything that takes Death Company and makes them better seems like it would be worth the points. That trick he does with Invulnerable saves is pretty sweet as well.
6872
Post by: sourclams
Astorath doesn't actually make DC better, he simply unlocks more [units] of them. If all you intend to field is a single big squad, then a basic champlain, Reclusiarch, or Lemartes all provide the same offensive boost without costing 220 points.
His abilities are actually counter intuitive, since if you take Astorath, then presumably you want a bunch of Death Company, but if you have a bunch of Death Company, you can't really afford enough units to make much use of his 'Shadow of the Primarch' SR.
But hey, we're going to split every hair and argue over every point.
8052
Post by: Terminus
Guitardian wrote:in fact, I can't think of anyone else who gets 10 S10 attacks....
I can't think of anyone that gets 10 S10 attacks period. Certainly not Mephiston, who has 5 attacks after the bonus CCW.
539
Post by: cygnnus
Terminus wrote:Guitardian wrote:in fact, I can't think of anyone else who gets 10 S10 attacks....
I can't think of anyone that gets 10 S10 attacks period. Certainly not Mephiston, who has 5 attacks after the bonus CCW.
Well, in theory, he could add another one from The Sanguinor, one for a Charge, and 3 from his Psychic Reserve, so there's your A10 at S10 no?
'Course that's crazy expensive and not really "Mephiston" per se, but rather Mephiston, The Sanguinor, and some good rolls...
Valete,
JohnS
17130
Post by: rdlb
Just to balance things out a little. Iʻve had a great time playing with him, he attracts a lot of attention and absorbs a lot of fire, and kills everything, including LRs, in close combat.
Running him at the same time as the DC in Jump Packs, my opponent has to choose which horribly destructive nightmare to shoot at and which horribly destructive nightmare will reach their lines...
Heʻs awesome!!!!
11452
Post by: willydstyle
Granted I haven't played with/against him, but I would not discount non-DC Tycho as Rites of Battle is a great ability.
8052
Post by: Terminus
cygnnus wrote:Terminus wrote:Guitardian wrote:in fact, I can't think of anyone else who gets 10 S10 attacks....
I can't think of anyone that gets 10 S10 attacks period. Certainly not Mephiston, who has 5 attacks after the bonus CCW.
Well, in theory, he could add another one from The Sanguinor, one for a Charge, and 3 from his Psychic Reserve, so there's your A10 at S10 no?
'Course that's crazy expensive and not really "Mephiston" per se, but rather Mephiston, The Sanguinor, and some good rolls...
Valete,
JohnS
What is Psychic Reserve? He has Unleash Rage, which lets him re-roll missed attacks. So even with all that fancy crap, you're still capping out at 7.
26286
Post by: Fl@nked
Not psychic reserve as in a power, psychic reserve as in Mepheston's reserve of psychic powers/attacks.
539
Post by: cygnnus
Fl@nked wrote:Not psychic reserve as in a power, psychic reserve as in Mepheston's reserve of psychic powers/attacks.
Just so. But I didn't have my Dex handy and I forgot that he couldn't get Might of Heros... Mea Maxima Culpa.
Valete,
JohnS
4003
Post by: Nurglitch
willydstyle wrote:Granted I haven't played with/against him, but I would not discount non-DC Tycho as Rites of Battle is a great ability.
I haven't yet either, but theoretically speaking Rites of Battle for Tycho is going to have many of the same problems as Rites of Battle does for a Dark Angels' Captain: Fearless redundancy. The Dark Angel problem is slightly different though: either you build for Fearless and Rites of Battle is redundant, or you build for non-Fearless and waste most of the advantages of the list. Blood Angels, however, have their Fearless randomized thanks to the Red Thirst.
12478
Post by: Gornall
Nurglitch wrote:Gornall wrote:Mephiston >>>> Tigurius in almost every way.
True, except for:
Joining a unit
Giving a bonus to reserves
Having access to more than four psychic powers (including his Force Weapon)
Leveraging the rest of the army via psychic powers
Not being a freakin' vampire
2 Wounds and no invulnerable... Try to cast three powers a turn and boom... half of his wounds are gone like that. Heaven help him if he has to go against Nids or Eldar. As expensive as Tiggy is, only having 2 wounds and no invulnerable (or even artificer) is real "fail"... Mephiston has nothing on that kind of fail. 
24528
Post by: I grappled the shoggoth
Saying fail is also "fail"
The cool thing about mephiston is the model looks as cool as a punch to the nuts feels. So anyone playing against him has incentive to get it off the table right away.
The other important thing about blood angels is that grey hunters are still better then assault marines point for point. Team jacob>>>>team edward
18176
Post by: Guitardian
Never really liked the whole "fail" thing either. Can't we just say "booo" like a crowd at a football game. It sounds less nerdy/condescending.
But I digress... While we are on topic of how horridly bad the blood angel heros are for players who want an insta-win why does anyone EVER take Tycho?? That guy has sucked ever since 2nd ed. "Angels Of Death". He has never been an impressive character, kind of like he's always playing second fiddle. Interesting, yes, relatively cheap for a hero, yes, but useful... umm... He's up there with Sicarus for the SM... or the difference between Logan versus Ragnar for the SW (although Ragnar still kind of rocks for a second fiddle commander). Tycho may as well be just another captain IMO. I think his character was based on the very first blood angels commmander figure that came out during rogue trader/2nd ed. era, and they just can't let him go for nostalgia purposes, they even updated the figure in the same pose as the origional generic commander (I have the old one, nyah nyah! ). What a waste of codex space though. That dude is gimp IMO. Mephiston is a MONSTER and people just need to learn how to keep him safe from being blown to bits by massed heavy weapons (which is a strategy in and of itself, since that's less heavy weapons shooting at your by-far-superior troops and tanks and stuff)
18861
Post by: Sanctjud
Team jacob>>>>team edward.
Oh dear Nurgle...
23223
Post by: Monster Rain
"Fail" isn't cool according to some. Whatever. Twilight references are? I get the gimmick of going somewhere and then pretending you don't want to be there to make you seem awesome, but I've never seen it done more unecessarily.
I don't think there's any moral high ground on either side of this.
18176
Post by: Guitardian
That last post was very abstract... I don't think analyzing the potential usefulness of a game piece really involves moral high or low ground anyways. SO here's the moral high ground: quit bitching at each other... here's the low ground: bitch at each other...
neither of these helps solve the question of 'is Mephiston worth it?' In my opinion he is, because he is a cc monster if you can manage to keep him screened to get close enough. It just takes an adjustment of the standard SMurf play style of hauling a massive command squad around like they own the place. Not being a squad member and not having an invul are his drawbacks but they can be overcome by creative use of your other stuff (rhino wall for instance? just a thought).
27736
Post by: Nobzey
Just for gaks and giggles what happens if you put him in his own personal Land Raider? Would that make anybody afraid?
11452
Post by: willydstyle
He can fly, and he can hide completely behind a rhino; he doesn't need it.
1963
Post by: Aduro
It would give him a longer threat range, but I don't think he needs it.
25522
Post by: Distortionist
Seems too expensive to be really worth it, but it does seem very powerful.
12478
Post by: Gornall
Mephiston isn't Fearless, correct? You could have some fun with a PBS and the Assasin with the LD Template Gun.
24528
Post by: I grappled the shoggoth
Thats an interesting, but highly circumstantial idea. I find it hard to believe a character like mephiston does not have the fearless special rule though. The idea of him getting pinned because an eldar pathfinder plinked a bat nipple off his armor is just silly.
12478
Post by: Gornall
Yeah... it's not likely to happen because of his LD10 Hood, but it's still funny to think about happening in a game.
25360
Post by: ductvader
Terminus wrote:Guitardian wrote:in fact, I can't think of anyone else who gets 10 S10 attacks....
I can't think of anyone that gets 10 S10 attacks period. Certainly not Mephiston, who has 5 attacks after the bonus CCW.
Grandmaster comes close with 6 S8 attacks...but then he is an IC, is Fearless, has Shrouding, costs 100pts less, has an Invulnerable Save, can take a retinue, a better psychic hood,has a better force weapon
12478
Post by: Gornall
And is T4, has 3 Ws, and still is not EW...
25360
Post by: ductvader
Gornall wrote:And is T4, has 3 Ws, and still is not EW...
Tack on a few Terminators if you want to throw the wounds in there to bring him up to mephiston's points...and now he can't be targetted in assault
26286
Post by: Fl@nked
It's fine. One PBS and all IC's are reduced to a pile of scaredy-cat.
6872
Post by: sourclams
ductvader wrote:Gornall wrote:And is T4, has 3 Ws, and still is not EW...
Tack on a few Terminators if you want to throw the wounds in there to bring him up to mephiston's points...and now he can't be targetted in assault
Mephiston is 20 more points than Tigurius. You would get 1/2 of a Terminator to "bring him up to mephiston's points"...
11452
Post by: willydstyle
sourclams wrote:ductvader wrote:Gornall wrote:And is T4, has 3 Ws, and still is not EW...
Tack on a few Terminators if you want to throw the wounds in there to bring him up to mephiston's points...and now he can't be targetted in assault
Mephiston is 20 more points than Tigurius. You would get 1/2 of a Terminator to "bring him up to mephiston's points"...
He was talking about a GK grandmaster.
6872
Post by: sourclams
Whoops, nm
|
|
