With now the oldest marine codex - along with the Templars. I would like to discuss thoughts on Dark Angels being revisited.

Basics:

DAs used to be the least close combat specialised of the non-generic Marines. The old Stubborn made them tough to count on for assaulting but a very dependable firebase. They also were the only codex at one point that allowed heavy plasma in the tacticals.

Ravenwing and Deathwing allow for two very specialised army builds that used to be unique.

The later SM codex kind of usurped many of these specialization options and in many respects surpassed them with the options. I would like to see the new DA codex be more firepower oriented and not just another variation of a SM assault army. Let the BA. Templars and SWs be the assault oriented Marines.

1. Give DA the new stubborn as a baseline.
2. Discount plasma weapons 5 points for all of them. Makes them viable choice compared to meltas and potential different look & feel to DAs.
3. Give all Ravenwing bikes 2 base attacks. No Vanguard Vets - that is what the Ravenwing's purpose is in the DAs.
4. Keep Fearless for RW and DW.
5. Bring back hunt for the fallen. Perhaps Rage (toward HQs) by RW & DW with victory conditions changed to capturing/preserving the HQs.
6. Rather than sternguard - veteran squads with plasma upgrades maybe even leave as is but 3 modifications much more tame than sternguard options.
7. Revamp vehicles to new standards and costs. (No more second-rate Machine Spirit or overpriced vehicles)
8. Defensive/morale oriented psychic powers. Oh and librarians with 10 Ld. No more third-class librarians.
9. Sammael at least as valuable as Khan on a bike. (This is a joke right now. One is a force multiplier while Sammael is a lone character waiting to die.)
10. Scouts make them troops with new statlines. General beef - make Sniper Rifles a costed upgrade that includes +1 BS. SRs are truly worthless with BS 3.

Comments on these or other options. I don't want an overpowering uber Codex but something that flavors the DAs as not being just another variation of other SM.

I like everything you posted, except beefing up the Scouts. Their scouts shouldn't be any different than anyone else's. I really like the idea of Ravenwing as Vanguard Vets though. That's a cool idea.

Maybe somthing like the PAGK Fast Attack choice with the DW option.
I like the Plasma Options, mabye some Plasma Guns for HW choices.

I'd like to see SS go to a 3+ save all the time instead of 4+ in HtH.

Bringing up all the wargear to the new SM standard is a given.

I think the shooting aspect of the DA should be much more emphasized. Dark Angels shouldn't just be normal marines with deathwing and ravenwing. Especially since the new SM codex can basically make just that. Blood angels are the assault oriented chapter, SM are the all rounders, and Dark Angels can be the shooty chapter. Space Wolves are off doing their own thing...

My own ideas are something like this

-Play up the first legion heritage with more unique wargear. Squads of jetbikes should be a given. (The mechanicus can find blueprints to make more in the same room they found the Stormraven's) Conversion beamers as a heavy weapon upgrade or something equally temperamental and cooky. More types of space marine artillery

-Skilled riders back to the ravenwing. The best bikers in the galaxy shouldn't worry about driving over shrubbery

-Bring back the intractable rule (the 2nd version)

-Relentless assualt squads with bolters (I saw that BA death company can do this, and it gave me a hard on, but then I thought about how rage makes it worthless) Trying to de-emphasize assault within the DA

-Dark Angel Dreadnought having full range of weapons for their second arm. Possibly have to pay to upgrade it to a Dreadnought CCW. Again trying to emphasize shooting over assault

-Rather than sternguard or vanguard (who would all be deathwing) Give Ammo upgrade options to Deathwing or Ravenwing

-A Plasma Predator

-And finally either a second heavy weapon in tactical squads or devastators as troops

Basically the feel I trying to go for is a gunline Marine army. It's how I used to play them, and I think it would be a nice fit within the Marine line up

I like that Idea

Brother SRM wrote:I like everything you posted, except beefing up the Scouts. Their scouts shouldn't be any different than anyone else's. I really like the idea of Ravenwing as Vanguard Vets though. That's a cool idea.

Not true. Dark Angels utilize their Scouts in a similar role to the Raven Guard and Space Wolves in having actual Veteran Battle-Brothers in an insurgency and precision strike role, rather than the standard role we see in the Ultramarines and others of just being a place to park the newbies. I can see them being able to take something like a Scout unit called "Huntsmen" that are Veteran Battle-Brothers shedding their Power Armour for hunting the Fallen.

I think DA should have some sort of buff to their Tactical sqauds to encourage the shooting nature of the army. I thought about this recently and had an idea for a tactical squad like, if they are holding an objective they have twin-linked weapons, and may re-roll failed morale checks. As far as the Plasma guns go, make them 5pts with Melta, and have plasma cannons be a baseline choice for them; also maybe the option of two heavy weapons in their tacticals?

It'd be cool if they do split of DW terminators, and have one be assault and one tacticals, give the assault Terminators an option of Relic Blade + SS, that'd be AWESOME.

Since they are doing it with ASMs in BA, make DW terminators scatter 1d6 instead of 2.

Hunt for the fallen is a given, make an HQ count as an objective or an additional kill point.

Azreal should be a massive force. S7 sword, or something.

I was thinking it'd be really cool to give Librarians a power to make enemy models within a certain range re-roll all saves, morale, etc. I don't know why, but I picture DA Librarians as the strongest of all Librarians. Perhaps, Epostilaries get the Captain's statline with powers?

As far as scouts go, make them kind of like Sternguard. Give them ammo that affects their sniper. Like, possibly str.6 shots, or anti-vehicle ammo, ammo that causes people to blow up, kind of like the DE gun.

I am a little bias though, DA are my favorite chapter, ever since I was like 8.

Devestators as troops....

....I mean, WHY NOT?

Devestators as troops....

....I mean, WHY NOT?

I figured BA set the precedent with assault squads. There is no reason to take tactical squads in a BA army. But I haven't play tested devastators as troops so it may be ridiculously over-powered

I don't think it would be at the current points for the weapon, if you had 4 units of objective capturing Missile Launcher Devs you could pretty much wreck any army you come across.

If you wanted to fix tacticals, you could simply give them two special rules, Bolter Drill, and a rule that allows them to make a shooting round in response to another unit charging them. Somewhat like the Stand and Shoot response from Fantasy.

As for special options here is what I would wishlist:

Update codex to Space Marine vehicles and wargear.
I like the idea of double shooting weapon dreads, no Ironclads though.
I would take out the Crusader except for Terminator Dedicated Transport.
Remove both Vanguard and Sternguard vets, as well as scout bikes.
Return Scouts to Troops, have an upgradable character similar to the SM Scout Seargent in the form of Seargent Naaman (Or whatever his name is.)
Give Sammael a jetbike command squad or the ability to ditch his bike.
Give Ravenwing Skilled Rider and return Jink.
Give Deathwing the ability to choose options like Wolfguard, IE not standard Assault or regular Terminators.
Make Belial a fighty Character, Sammael a not so fighty slightly shooty character, Ezekiel the Libby from hell like every other chapter, and Azrael a unit or army booster. (like all infantry units within 12 inches have a 4++ save)
And fix the point costs on Company Vets, some of their stuff is overcosted.

I hope the next DA book brings back flavour, functionality and balance for DA players while not being OTT like the current BA book (i.e. stay away from this book Matt Ward).

What I personally want in the DA book is for rules for Cypher and the fallen to be played (in a Chaos or Fallen Angels army). Since GW seems to "forget" about Cypher every time they write a chaos book, a DA book would be the perfect chance for Cypher to make a triumphant return to 5th edition

Volkov wrote:There is no reason to take tactical squads in a BA army.

Have you ever tried to hold an objective with an Assault Squad? Yeah... it doesn't end well.

Yes, taking Devastators as Troops would be cruel. Don't do it.

Besides, the Dark Angels are quite the Codex chapter. Mustn't draw attention to theirselves and all that. Certainly they should have access to Mortis Dreadnoughts, and maybe Hunter Whirlwinds for anti-aircraft power. Stubbon would be brutal.

I liked my ideas :(

Just get rid of them. Them and the Templars. And the Wolves. And the Angels of EMO.

We need Codex Catachans, Codex Tanith, Codex Praetorians and Codex Wode Warriors.

Yeah.

How about we get rid of all the "HURP ALL MARINES CAN BE ONE CODEX AND BRING BACK SQUATS" whiners first?

Yes, taking Devastators as Troops would be cruel. Don't do it.

Well what about as elites? Or giving tactical squads 2 heavy weapons instead of 1 special 1 heavy? Tactical sergeants with signums?

But on another note is everyone in agreement that DA should become a shooty chapter?

I think they should be shooty. DW is the close combat option and that is highly specialized

I'd like to see more buffs to DW. Give them WS/BS 5 or something like that.

I think GW has done a good job of differentiating SW and BA from vanilla marines and I'd like to see the same thing done for DA. So with that in mind, what makes the DA "unique"?

* Lots of Terminators
* Some of the best Bikers of any SM's
* First Legion so lots of wierd wargear and weaponry.
* Hunt the Fallen
* Stubborn but Tactical Geniuses
* Bad-ass Chaplains and Librarians

So I think a gunline based force with unique access to wargear, awesome Termies and bikes, Stubborn USR for everyone, some sort of Hunt the Fallen rule, and maybe Interrogator Chaplain solos a la Wolfguard and Sanguinary Priests that provide buffs and bad-assness.

What I don't want to see are any entries that just don't fit the DA fluff but crammed in anyway (I'm looking at you Sternguard and Vanguard!).

Kanluwen wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I like everything you posted, except beefing up the Scouts. Their scouts shouldn't be any different than anyone else's. I really like the idea of Ravenwing as Vanguard Vets though. That's a cool idea.

Not true. Dark Angels utilize their Scouts in a similar role to the Raven Guard and Space Wolves in having actual Veteran Battle-Brothers in an insurgency and precision strike role, rather than the standard role we see in the Ultramarines and others of just being a place to park the newbies. I can see them being able to take something like a Scout unit called "Huntsmen" that are Veteran Battle-Brothers shedding their Power Armour for hunting the Fallen.

A perusing of the Lexicanum article isn't turning anything up on the DA scouts. Then again, I haven't read the Dark Angels codex in like 2 years so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I really like the ideas you folks are coming up with on giving the DA more "weird" technology - I love all that ancient stuff that hasn't been in the game since 2nd edition. I was as happy as I was surprised when they came out with rules for the Thunderfire Cannon in the Marine Codex - I got to use my Thudd gun! I'd definitely be down for more Dark Age of Technology stuff for the Dark Angels, and having them ride jetbikes is as absurd as much of the other stuff variant chapters have been getting as of late.

As far as I recall, it was in Sergeant Naaman's rules.

However, I'd like to see something akin to Wolf Scouts/Huntsmen for every Space Marine Chapter.

A 0-1 beefed up Scout unit would be a hell of a draw for me to get more into the armies.

Dont forget to ake the ven dred good like the other chapters

What? Right now I'd say that the DA Ven dread is better than the other chapters. It doesn't have WS/BS 5 but it is pretty cheap at only 145 base points and still gets the job done.

Except when you roll 2s to hit, or 3s to hit in combat against WS4 opponents.

Naaman back in 3rd did have a stealthy feel. He had a rule to have all his bolt weapons silenced, and only tripped the alarm in sentry scenarios on a 6

What we could do is have BS/WS 3 scouts for normal squads, but a Naaman led squad could be 4 representing full fledged battle brothers fighting in carapace armour, and they could have special deployment rules that will have them walk on from a board edge or deploy anywhere like Lictors and Marbo

As much as I like my conversion, I would prefer if the named HQ i use the most had an actual model as well.
I like the 2 heavy weapons in a tac squad idea, with or without sig. Would make for some nifty combat squading as well. Alot of other good ideas in here too.

Assuming the Whirlwind gets fixed (pick one type at beggining of game? lame) the LR Helios would make a nifty addition as well. Missles + lascannons = fort of redeption, why not a LR? Maybe some of the FW style shooty, no troop drop pods as well.

What if the RW got a larger radius homming beacon, a DS advantage similar to BA's Decent of Angels that would promote mixed wing forces (very fluffy).
Last thing I can come up with would be an honorguard type thing. I know command squads are there, but really, the chapter master can't take a company champioin cuz he's not a company master? Same with the librarian charged with the chapters darkest secerets? Really?

Oh yeah, and Cypher. Rules. Fluff. Anything. Please?

Chaplains make all nearby units re-roll to hit for shooting instead of in combat?

Chaplains make all nearby units re-roll to hit for shooting instead of in combat?

I had actually thought about something like that, but it might be overpowered with say a devastator squad


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've got it! Chaplains can have something similar to guard orders for squads. First rank fire second rank fire for bolters!

I was thinking more along the lines of Marine Guide / Doom.

I was thinking more along the lines of Marine Guide / Doom.

Those seem like great candidates for the DA Libby

Ah. Revising the Dark Angels Codex...something I've been thinking about since the release of C:SM. And with the release of the Blood Angels, I believe we have better insight as to what might be in store for us.

My suggestions for revisions start with the heroes:

General: Make their statlines in common with the ones from C:SM (WS 6 for Company Masters, etc). Give us back Asmodai, and various other named character upgrades for squads.

Azrael: Gosh, do I hate seeing leaders of armies that are not immune to instant death. I mean, if Logan Grimnar, Darnath Lysander, and Marneus Calgar can be immune to instant death, why can't Azrael. Make his artificer armor also protect him from instant death. Aside from that, I think this character is fine.

Belial: I like where they were going with him, but he needs to go in one of two directions. If he's going to have interchangable wargear, I believe he should have all the options available to a captain in terminator armor from C:SM (Taking a combi-bolter with a thunder hammer for example). Or option two, set his wargear in stone, the MC power sword and storm bolter, and give him some special rules. For example, conferring on his unit the ability to assault the turn they deep strike.

Sammael: Personally, I think this one is fine the way he is. Seriously, no complaints.

Ezekiel: My complaints with this character really are just general complaints with the Dark Angels librarians. Our powers need a serious overhaul.

Other Units:

Tactical Squads: Why can't our squads be stubborn and still cost the same as the C:SM squads. If their squads get Combat Tactics, I see no problem in us keeping our cost and gaining stubborn. Also, I agree that a focus on plasma weapons in the form of points discounts should be given.

Company Veterans: While I wish they wouldn't, I'm willing to bet that Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans will replace our Company Veterans.

Ravenwing: Give us back the danged Skilled Rider and Jink save, and keep the cost of the Attack Squadron the same and I believe this sounds fair. I also think that a Jetbike squad could be perfectly reasonable. They could be like the company veterans of the Ravenwing. Plus, it would be a unit to finally attach Sammael on his Jetbike to.

Deathwing: Let's see a divine intervention or descent of angels style rule for our termies! I think this would be both effective and fluffy.

Wargear: I think this has pretty much been covered a million times...so I'll spare you. But I would like to see Dark Angel only wargear options.


Let me know what you think. I've been putting a lot of thought into this.

final_boss325 wrote:Tactical Squads: Why can't our squads be stubborn and still cost the same as the C:SM squads. If their squads get Combat Tactics, I see no problem in us keeping our cost and gaining stubborn. Also, I agree that a focus on plasma weapons in the form of points discounts should be given.

As for plasma weapons, give them a free reroll

You know I have to say, that even though I know this is all pointless wish-listing, it has got me excited to play Dark Angels again...

Sammael: Personally, I think this one is fine the way he is. Seriously, no complaints.

Really?...then allow me to complain. For Sammael on a jetbike, the Raven Sword needs to be s6 again, and he needs to be an independent character. Then he would be perfect. For the Land Speeder, oh how I yearn for rear armour 14, but failing that, have the all seeing eye do something again

Tactical Squads: Why can't our squads be stubborn and still cost the same as the C:SM squads. If their squads get Combat Tactics, I see no problem in us keeping our cost and gaining stubborn.

Except that stubborn is what half of the characters in C:SM replace combat tactics with. I think the old intractable rule would be perfect

Ravenwing: Give us back the danged Skilled Rider and Jink save

I am actually ok with even not having the jink save, given how abundant cover is. Skilled rider is a must

Deathwing: Let's see a divine intervention or descent of angels style rule for our termies! I think this would be both effective and fluffy.

Heroic intervention might be over the top, but they should give us decent of angels with terminators replacing jump packs, and call it decent of angels too

Oh and finally they should make the Watcher in the Dark have a statline and abilities exactly like mephiston

Almost forgot! Apothecarys. Good ones. In terminator armor and on bikes. Models would be nice too (terminator that is, bike is easy to do)

Why the Plasma love? I haven't read much on DA fluff.

Zarake wrote:Why the Plasma love? I haven't read much on DA fluff.

Back in 3rd ed, Dark Angels were the only Space Marines who could have plasma cannons in tactical squads. They also featured prominently on the DA codex cover at the time.

EDIT: Also, Dark Angels are the first legion, so it makes sense for them to have more old tech, like plasma.

DAaddict wrote:With now the oldest marine codex - along with the Templars. I would like to discuss thoughts on Dark Angels being revisited.

I believe you are forgetting the Grey Knights. They hanv't been updated since 3rd edtion.

What I would like to see in a new DA codex? I want to see more fluff. I want to see new fluff. I want to see the fluff I keep hearing about that was in Angels of Death codex but was never in the 4th edtion codex.

I want to see the DA to be able to do everything. Deathwing, Ravenwing, Greenwing, and Ironwing. I just learnt about this about the DA. I probably would never use it, but I would love to have the options for it. I was surprised that DA had an Ironwing force. (maybe it's called something else, I can't remember the name now, suppose to be all mechinzied I believe or a mixture of vechicles and Greenwing)

I would love to field an all Fallen Army. Just like there Radical and Puritan forces for the Inquisitors, have something like that for DA. Have your DA side and then have your Fallen Side. Would love to have more fluff about Cypher and have him a IC that is playable. Cypher should have a weapon skill of like 7 or 8. He is suppose to be on of the best shots in the universe. Make him have it. Put out a new Cypher mini.

Have a rule or rules that is about "Hunt the fallen".

Not shure where all this Plasma love is for DA, lots of DA players say they don't need to be an all Plamsa army. So not shure if DA should be an all Plasma shooting army.

I don't care about having the same SS as regular SM. But make us disticnt. OH I hear everyone say now that the DA are suppose to be an Astartes Chapter. If I am reading the fluff corectly, that is not true. They look like they adhere to what MR Gulliman layed out, but secretly they don't. The DA didn't want to start another SM vs SM war again so it looked like they conceded. Just because the SM codex has better toys dosn't mean DA should have the exact same ones. We are just suppose to look like a regular codex but infact is not. So maybe having a few rules that SM codex has but not all of them. Make DW more unique. Make RW more unique that what is in the SM codex. What ever happened to them being skilled riders? Maybe have a rule where they can reroll when driving through rough or dangerous terrian or something like that. If we can't have the same SS, let the DA be able to field lots of Artifcer armour. We are suppose to have chapter of over 5000 men strong. (Of course broken into other chapters that don't look like DA so they look like they are a standard chapter) Just because they look like a standard chapter dosn't mean they have to fight like one. If anyone sees the DA acting differently, you think they will be alive long enough to say anything or be mind wiped.

Let the DA play differently. Let us have different units. Let them have named charcater Inerigator Chaplin. Bring back some of the old ICs.

Let the Watchers in the Dark minis mean something. By that, they don't get involved, but maybe confer some bonuses or something? Like if they get in the way, the models are moved but confer a bonus like feel no pain or be able to reroll what ever.

Have our Libraians be better. Please give the DA some good psychic powers. Nothing stupid like draw a line 24" and everything dies or something ridiculous like that. Make 'Zeke a powerfull psyker.

Just make them different and please don't make them the play test version for 6th edtion SM.

1) Hunt the Fallen was a lame rule, no matter how amazingly fluffy it was. That's also why Interrogator Chaplain Asmodai was removed from the Dark Angels codex--fluffwise, he's a secretive character who's not meant to inspire or bolster the Battle-Brothers. He's a symbol of fear that is intended to make the Fallen cry like little girls if they think the Dark Angels are after them.

2) They are, in fact, a very Codex Chapter. The divergence is in the Deathwing and Ravenwing.
That's the only divergence, really.

The Successor Chapters you mention as part of the Dark Angels' strength are not exclusive to the Dark Angels. The difference, however, lies in the fact that all the Inner Circles across all the Unforgiven Chapters seem to be directly initiated by the Dark Angels and bound to follow their orders(look at the Vraks campaign book from FW for an example. The Dark Angels had other commitments and Azrael had one of their Successors intervene on their behalf), whereas the other parent Chapters pretty much let the Successors do whatever they want.

3) Artifacts like plasma guns, Tactical Dreadnought Armour and jetbikes have always been a staple of the Unforgiven--mainly because of their role as the First Legion and having been the first to be fully outfitted before the Heresy. Meant they had plenty of spares and mastercrafted weaponry to save for rainy days. Completely okay with them getting a 'unique' Plasma Gun/Cannon setup.

4) Ravenwing and Deathwing could stand being pinnacles of their craft again, but what I would love to see is some uniqueness in how they're employed. Deathwing Terminators being teleported in after the Ravenwing find the targets, or when the fighting on the ground gets the worst? Again--awesome.

5) Scouts. This is a beef I have with all the Marine codexes, barring the Space Wolves one. A 'veteran' Scout unit made up of the veteran Battle-Brothers/Sergeants who lead and train the Scout squads would be excellent.

I know this is not going to hapen, but with the Plasma thing I remeber way back in the day when Plasma Cannons had 2 settings. 1 was the Canon and the other was the old Follow Fire Rules, Lower Str, but more shot and no "Splody" on a One.
It would be cool, but...

Why the Plasma love? I haven't read much on DA fluff.

Dark Angels love plasma, because Dark Angel players love plasma. Art imitating life or some such

Zarake wrote:Why the Plasma love? I haven't read much on DA fluff.

To tell you the truth, I really don't want to see any successor chapter named-characters. I've always liked the idea of "Hey! You want to play a DA successor? That's cool. Just make up a paint scheme and rename the characters!" Because personally I hate seeing the Flesh-Tearers Chapter Master leading an all BA force. I don't care how often they work together. It's like Shrike leading an Ultramarines company...just paint them to be friggin Raven Guard for fething sake.

Uh what? That rant makes no sense.

As a life long DA player, I approve this thread.

First and foremost, I want hunt the fallen back. Its a HUGE part of the army and for no reason should it have been taken out. And on that note make DA Chaplin's the focus, and bring back Asmodai.

I completely agree that DA should be a shooty army. We have enough assault armies.

Plasma Tech has been another staple of DAs for as long as I remember. I still take plasma guns in abundance, and when people ask why, I tell em its fluffy.

We need unique units like the Wolf Guard and Gold Nipple Guard of other chapters. I have never seen a use for the DA vets as thats what the Deathwing are. Again agree with ravenwing being DA's vanguard.

Grabbing the Mortis Dread from FW rules. GW has done it before with drop pods and other units, no reason they cant do it here.

As lame as it sounds I want the rivalry between space wolves and DA back.

Someone said something about cypher and the fallen list, I love it, but a part of me wants them to stay chaos.

Scouts need to stop being elite, unless they bring naamaan back. they brought damn tyco back from the grave they can bring him.

But alot of the ideas brought up here where great, just wish GW read em.

I love the 2 heavy weapons to a tac squad idea. Make the second in place of the Special. So you could combat squad into two 5-man las or missile teams, but at the cost of melta/flamer goodness.

I really like the idea of giving Descent of Angels to Deathwing too.

A point-break on Plasma would be a great nod to the older versions of the list.

Intractable would be great to have back. Another great combo would be if they kept Combat Tactics but added the ability to Rally within 6" of the enemy. This would make them the masters of Combat Tactics and allow them the option to run away from a fight (assuming they won the Sweep roll-off) and then immediately shoot the unit which broke them, even with their heavy weapons.

Dev squads obviously need to go down to BA/SW costs.

My honest suggestion? Remove codex Dark Angels, roll them into the new Space Marine book. Honestly, the only thing different about Dark Angels is that:

1. They are kinda shady around the Inquisition.
2. They like plasma weapons a bit more than normal.
3. They field 2 companies in large chunks on the battlefield.
4. They wear dresses.

Make a bunch of special characters, take plasma weapons, have the special characters give you terminator and bike troops, model your troops wearing dresses. Done.

ph34r wrote:My honest suggestion? Remove codex Dark Angels, roll them into the new Space Marine book. Honestly, the only thing different about Dark Angels is that:

1. They are kinda shady around the Inquisition.
2. They like plasma weapons a bit more than normal.
3. They field 2 companies in large chunks on the battlefield.
4. They wear dresses.

Make a bunch of special characters, take plasma weapons, have the special characters give you terminator and bike troops, model your troops wearing dresses. Done.

They only look like that now because of what they did to the latest codex. Go back to 3rd edition and they where a very different army with their own unique rules.

By the logic you have given, why dont we do that for all marine armies? Even Chaos? Chaos doesnt look that much different from C:SM save for the oblits and the defiler. Blood angels and Space Wolves where the same way until their recent codex updates.

They only look like that now because of what they did to the latest codex. Go back to 3rd edition and they where a very different army with their own unique rules.

By the logic you have given, why dont we do that for all marine armies? Even Chaos? Chaos doesnt look that much different from C:SM save for the oblits and the defiler. Blood angels and Space Wolves where the same way until their recent codex updates.

There is a 4th edition Dark Angel Codex? (Hint: I am in denial. My gaming group lets me use the 3rd ed min-codex on top of the 5th ed SM codex. It works pretty well except you need to patch up the absence of an armoury in the 5th SM codex) But Blood angels were less different then DA were. Prior to the most recent codex they were basically crazy marines that could have jump packs for their command squad, and a dreadnought with two CCWs, but even then its hard to encapsulate all that with a special character who changes some rules. Ravenwing and Deathwing are supposed to be as different from their counter-parts as Death company are from theirs, so removing uniqueness really destroys the feel of the army. Not to mention that if they do roll them in with SM I guarantee you I will be that crusty bastard 10 years from now that still bitches that they did that, along side wanting squats back

Plasma Tech has been another staple of DAs for as long as I remember. I still take plasma guns in abundance, and when people ask why, I tell em its fluffy.

It is kind of funny how it is assumed DA are plasma-philes, but it really isn't stated anywhere. I take plasma on everything that can take it in my army

Bolter Drill (i.e. reroll failed bolter gun hits) for Tactical Squads. Reflects their semi veteran status and the shootiness of DA.

It is kind of funny how it is assumed DA are plasma-philes, but it really isn't stated anywhere.

Actually in the wargear section of the 4E DA codex, under one of the plasma weapons (I forget which one), it states that DA do favor plasma. Favoring their higher firepower at a cost of their own safety.

combatmedic wrote:

ph34r wrote:My honest suggestion? Remove codex Dark Angels, roll them into the new Space Marine book. Honestly, the only thing different about Dark Angels is that:

1. They are kinda shady around the Inquisition.
2. They like plasma weapons a bit more than normal.
3. They field 2 companies in large chunks on the battlefield.
4. They wear dresses.

Make a bunch of special characters, take plasma weapons, have the special characters give you terminator and bike troops, model your troops wearing dresses. Done.

They only look like that now because of what they did to the latest codex. Go back to 3rd edition and they where a very different army with their own unique rules.

By the logic you have given, why dont we do that for all marine armies? Even Chaos? Chaos doesnt look that much different from C:SM save for the oblits and the defiler. Blood angels and Space Wolves where the same way until their recent codex updates.

Dark Angels are the least divergent from vanilla Space Marines and could easily be rolled into C:SM. Blood Angels are supposedly a codex chapter but are pretty out there. Space Wolves are very non-codex. I have been playing since 3rd edition, I know what Dark Angels were like. They could take plasma cannons in tactical squads, deathwing/ravenwing, special characters, and I don't remember what else.
Chaos is supposed to have so much more divergence from vanilla Space Marines that I am appalled that you even considered it a viable argument.

ph34r wrote:
Chaos is supposed to have so much more divergence from vanilla Space Marines that I am appalled that you even considered it a viable argument.

And I am appalled at your previous statement of making the army Iv been playing for 12 years a side note in the next marine codex. So I can only assume we feel the same way on this matter. Chaos is SUPPOSED to be different, just like space wolves, blood angels, and dark angels SHOULD be different from vanilla, but at one point they where not.
But If I must I will throw out why the CURRENT chaos codex is so like the CURRENT Vanilla codex.

Chaos Lords=Chapter Masters
Chaos Sorcerer= Liberian
Havoc Squad= Dev squad
Chaos Terms= Termies
Chaos Raptors= Assault Marines
1k Sons= Nerfed Sternguard with a invurn save
Berserker= Assault equipped Vanguard Marines
Noise Marines= another slightly nerfed Sternguard
Rhino, Pred, LR= Same

I mean yea Chaos has a few different units like the oblits, "generic" daemons, and defilers, and to be honest I couldn't really find a comparison for the plague marines except really slow bikers, so excluded them.

Do I think this is fair for Chaos player? No. But the fact is, by your logic you gave before, that any army that resembles another army in its current codex form, should just be rolled into one single codex the next time around.

combatmedic wrote:

ph34r wrote:
Chaos is supposed to have so much more divergence from vanilla Space Marines that I am appalled that you even considered it a viable argument.

And I am appalled at your previous statement of making the army Iv been playing for 12 years a side note in the next marine codex. So I can only assume we feel the same way on this matter. Chaos is SUPPOSED to be different, just like space wolves, blood angels, and dark angels SHOULD be different from vanilla, but at one point they where not.
But If I must I will throw out why the CURRENT chaos codex is so like the CURRENT Vanilla codex.

Chaos Lords=Chapter Masters
Chaos Sorcerer= Liberian
Havoc Squad= Dev squad
Chaos Terms= Termies
Chaos Raptors= Assault Marines
1k Sons= Nerfed Sternguard with a invurn save
Berserker= Assault equipped Vanguard Marines
Noise Marines= another slightly nerfed Sternguard
Rhino, Pred, LR= Same

I mean yea Chaos has a few different units like the oblits, "generic" daemons, and defilers, and to be honest I couldn't really find a comparison for the plague marines except really slow bikers, so excluded them.

Do I think this is fair for Chaos player? No. But the fact is, by your logic you gave before, that any army that resembles another army in its current codex form, should just be rolled into one single codex the next time around.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to shut down your argument. Here we go:
How are Dark Angels different than Codex Marines?
1. Belial and Deathwing organization. Just put him in C:SM
2. Sammael and Ravenwing organization. Same deal
3. Interrogator chaplain. IMO all space marines should have access to higher level chaplains anyway.
4. DA Chief Librarian. Just include as special character in C:SM

Other differences: essentially none. They were slightly different back in 3rd edition, but not much.

How are Chaos Marines different than Codex Marines?
Right now, not that much. The current book sucks big time, and everyone knows this or didn't play in 3rd edition. However even in its current terrible form it is more different than "2 special characters that give you army organization choices, and 2 other characters"
Going by the maximum rules represented for chaos, there already exists the following different than Codex Marines:
1. Daemon princes
2. Greater Daemons
3. Tactical squad special weapons/wargear/size/icons
4. Cult marines
5. A dozen types of daemon. Current book contains only one crappy daemon.
6. Raptors are essentially Assault Marines, I'll give you that. However, they can/could still take marks.
7. Havocs are basically devastators, but special weapons, and again marks. Also different heavy weapon options.
8. Defilers
9. Crazed Dreadnoughts
10. Obliterators
11. Vehicle upgrades
12. the list goes on...

Even the current Chaos codex, which is a terrible shell of its former self, has more rules to make it different than Codex Marines than Codex Dark Angels. Codex Dark Angels could function at 100% the same as 4 characters and some organization unlocks in Codex Marines.

Dark Angels are supposed to be a strict Codex Astartes following chapter. Their defining traits are hunting the Fallen, not liking the inquisition, having a slight preference for plasma weapons, and fielding different organizations. They don't need the Space Wolf-esque treatment of getting darkclaws and angelriders and darkbane shadowangel the special crazy character. They are Codex. All of their rules could be represented perfectly within Codex: Space Marines.

Ph33r, the same argument holds equally for Blood Angels. They're both (historically) pretty close to the Codex: Astartes, certainly moreso than Space Wolves. Back in 2nd edition they literally shared a codex (Angels of Death) and their 3rd edition codices were about equally divergent from codex: SM.

The current approach from GW is to flesh out the popular subchapters with more unique units, special rules, and characters, and honestly I think that's a good thing. While I'd prefer more love be given to the Xenos, we know GW needs to pimp their main cash cow (SM), and if they're doing that, it's certainly cooler if the various SM dexes actually play differently from one another and from C:SM.

Given what GW has done with the BA, I think it's absolutely reasonable and appropriate for DA fans to hope for similar treatment.

Interrogator Chaplains don't take to the field except for extreme circumstances.
They are not for combat, outside of going after The Fallen.
They are not for inspiration.

They're the embodiment of fear to The Fallen who actually feel fear. Their main role is to do nothing but hang back at The Rock and extract confessions of repentance from The Fallen--with the secondary role of accompanying strike forces going after highly prolific Fallen who've shown up on the Unforgiven's radar.

But also, you neglected to mention(apparently), that the current Dark Angels codex is what they used as a sort of "field test" for the current Space Marines codex.

DA are WAY more divergent than BA. I am looking at the old 3rd edition books right now. DA were the only ones that fielded some form of unique army. Minus DC, which are essentially crazy ASM squads, they didn't offer much. Oh, and Furioso Dreads and Baal Preds as well.

DA were an amazing list I thought, one of the coolest, and darkest chapters. Then, the steamy loaf DA codex emerged in 4th edition that ruined it for everyone.

To say that the DA should have just been lumped into C:SM i find a little offensive, if a little ignorant (no offense). They are NOT a strict codex chapter. Their first and second companies operate completely different from how the C:SM ones do. That alone says why they deserve their own codex. Add in the fact that, they have their own special units (Jetbikes, the Mortis Dread, the Land Raider Ares), coupled with their own special tactics is just icing on the proverbial robed cake.

Mannahnin wrote:Ph33r, the same argument holds equally for Blood Angels. They're both (historically) pretty close to the Codex: Astartes, certainly moreso than Space Wolves. Back in 2nd edition they literally shared a codex (Angels of Death) and their 3rd edition codices were about equally divergent from codex: SM.

The current approach from GW is to flesh out the popular subchapters with more unique units, special rules, and characters, and honestly I think that's a good thing. While I'd prefer more love be given to the Xenos, we know GW needs to pimp their main cash cow (SM), and if they're doing that, it's certainly cooler if the various SM dexes actually play differently from one another and from C:SM.

Given what GW has done with the BA, I think it's absolutely reasonable and appropriate for DA fans to hope for similar treatment.

I'm not a fan of codex bloodbloodblood either. I'm sure Dark Angels will be interesting if they get the Space Wolves/Blood Angels treatment, but the resources for a full redesign and many new units could be used for so much more...
And its ph34r, not ph33r

final_boss325 wrote:To say that the DA should have just been lumped into C:SM i find a little offensive, if a little ignorant (no offense). They are NOT a strict codex chapter. Their first and second companies operate completely different from how the C:SM ones do. That alone says why they deserve their own codex. Add in the fact that, they have their own special units (Jetbikes, the Mortis Dread, the Land Raider Ares), coupled with their own special tactics is just icing on the proverbial robed cake.

As someone that has played since early 3rd ed I consider myself non-ignorant and quite informed on this matter. What would you really lose. Think about it. You wouldn't lose your jetbike character. You wouldn't lose Mortis Dreadnoughts. The Land Raider Ares is something they shoved into apocalypse, it isn't some essential piece of Dark Angels lore, its something they made and said "Dark Angels made it". You wouldn't lose Deathwing or Ravenwing. You wouldn't lose anything! What would be bad about it? You wouldn't get robed guys on the cover?

This thread wasn't started to be an "I hate marines" fest. It was started to be a discussion of what we want/can expect from a potentialy new DA codex. If your not here to add to the discussion why bother posting here in the first place.

I don't hate marines, I play marines. Read the part I just edited into my post. You would lose nothing from how the DA currently are if they were just rolled into C:SM.

I mean if you want the full Wolfclaw Wolfrider Wolfborn treatment, I'm sure you will have grimrobed darkveterans and angelsword midgetriders, but that's just making up new fluff to sell models :/

(Not that new models and fluff is bad but... aren't there plenty of marine chapters with crazy organizations and backgrounds that could use some love?)

It's not a matter of what we would lose by being lumped in with C:SM, it's the fact that we should have so much more. The only reason I see people saying that they should just be added to C:SM is because how craptacular and vanilla their current codex is. I mean the BA used to be exactly like the DA in the fact that they were pretty much a codex chapter with only a few unique units, characters and special rules. And just look at them now! Crazy spectacular amounts of uniqueness in the form of librarian dreadnoughts, the sanguinary guard, and several new heroes. As I said, the current dex of the DA is very bland so adding them to C:SM as they are might not seem like a bad idea in most respects, but the chapter shouldn't be.

Also adding them to the C:SM would allow all the other codex chapters to take the DA characters and units. The C:SM says this is to reflect the chapters working together often. Fluff-wise this makes absolutely zero sense for the Dark Angels. They despise working with other chapters, and prefer to keep to themselves. This is the biggest reason why i believe they should have their own dex.

Alright, well that segways us well to the original topic. What significant changes would make DA as different from Codex Marines as Chaos Marines or Space Wolves?

They have all different units in every slot, with different wargear and options. How would DA have this? What units should DA have that basic marines wouldn't?

Seriously ph34r, gtfo, this is a wishlist thread. We want none of your logic here.

I was asking a serious question, which is the same one as the OP was asking. Is that so wrong? If you have ideas of how DA could be unique and special enough to deserve a codex, post them!

I already did.

Sorry, I guess I was unclear. This thread is not only for you. I was getting the thread back on topic, for everyone. If you don't like that, well...

People say it's fluffy for DA to have plasma. Where is this fluff? Is it in the older codecii? Is it in the novels? All I can go on is what we call the 4th edtion codex.

Where can I look for this fluff everyone talks about? I would like to read up on it.

Someone said about having the DA have different weapons or stuff. So what about an all jet bike squad? Why not? Or is this suppose to be an eldar thing only?

What about DA being able to change the FoC? This can symbolize their strategic genius left down from The Lion himself.

I would like Ravenwing to get some sort of special speeder. Something along the lines of the Tempest (only not sucky).

Stormraven is a given as the chapter is supposed to be able to hunt and quickly relocate. Maybe with a different set of weapon options, and perhaps remove the Assault Ramp to encourage the shooty aspect.

And simply because I have the models....a land speeder command squad.

What I belive they could have is already above...upon further consideration, I've come up with a few more ideas.

- A dreadnought with options for two guns. Basically the polar opposite of the BA Furioso Dreadnought.

- Since C:SM states that Sternguard and Vanguard vets are part of the codex chapters 1st companies, maybe we could get Sternguard Deathwing (Specialist ammo for storm bolters), and Vanguard Deathwing (Assaulting the turn they deep strike)

- I would like to see intractable make its way back. Though I think intractable on Sternguard would be a little over-powered. Even power armored.

- I kind of agree with the idea of taking a second heavy weapon in tactical squads in place of the special weapon.

As far as all the plasma love? The DA were originally the only chapter allowed to take a plasma cannon in their normal tactical squads. And in the 4E codex, its stated that Dark Angels favor plasma weaponry...trading their own safety for increased firepower. The unit of Jetbikes in Ravenwing should be a given.

I don't like the idea of jetbikes.

While it is easily done with a simple retcon of the fluff, it is too much of a retcon for me.

The Master of the Ravenwing is supposed to have the last jetbike that the Dark Angels have.

Davor wrote:People say it's fluffy for DA to have plasma. Where is this fluff? Is it in the older codecii? Is it in the novels? All I can go on is what we call the 4th edtion codex.

Where can I look for this fluff everyone talks about? I would like to read up on it.

Someone said about having the DA have different weapons or stuff. So what about an all jet bike squad? Why not? Or is this suppose to be an eldar thing only?

What about DA being able to change the FoC? This can symbolize their strategic genius left down from The Lion himself.

Did you decide to skip reading the armoury section where it tells about how Dark Angels prefer plasma guns because its extremly powerful and theres a chance they can hurt themselves (strange I know but I havn't got my codex with me at this time)

Personally, I wouldn't mind our land speeders being brought up to 5th ed standard, though keep it so our squadrons can go up to 5 not 3.

Maybe leave the LSS out because it is pilted by scouts and unless they are made veterans of the chapter in scout armour, they wouldn't be in the ravenwing which is where the landspeeders are kept mostly.

A jet bike command squad would be good for Sammel. Seeing as successor chapters just happen to have jet bikes lying around in their armouries, why shouldn't we have more than one.

Plasma cannons on terminators maybe? or some sort of plasma flamer.

Ironwing could be tactical squads with rhinos/ razorbacks included in their wargear and access to a second speical weapon instead of a second or first heavy weapon.

[really wishlisting here now] invunarable save for ravenwing bikers?

Deathwing with
-Combi-Plasma
-Plasma Guns
-Plasma Cannons

[Wish List]

final_boss325 wrote: The unit of Jetbikes in Ravenwing should be a given.

If Jetbike models come out I am going to be soooo pissed that I purchased three Sammaels!

I like this thread a lot actually. I have been asking myself, a non-DA player, what room there is for another loyalist marine dex and this thread shed a lot of light on that. Ph34r makes some really good points but I think they are not really relevant since we know DA love is too strong for GW to allow them to be rolled up into Co:SM. The "Angels of Death" codex didn't even work!!!

All this work on Loyalist Marines rules means that the next CSM incarnation better be WILD!
I am also hoping they can step up the Xenos competition. I WANT Eldar and Dark Eldar to rock. While they are at it, an Exodite section should be included in the Eldar dex.
Hey, I know this is a lot but look at what GW has done with every dex since orks; they are nuts. They have done things many of us probably never thought would be done. And for all intensive purposes that game is still balanced (at least among the new dexes)!

I'm still uncertain as to why the Land Speeder Storm was left out. The ability to take Scouts in Storms would be a bit more in line with an all-Ravenwing army's fluff and an interesting addition to Deathwing.

Mabye keep Scouts Elite, but let them take Storms as a Deticated Trasports

That would be nice, I always liked the idea of helicopter snipers.

Anpu42 wrote:Maybe keep Scouts Elite, but let them take Storms as a Dedicated Trasports

Uh, why?
Unless Dark Angels Scouts are beefed up to the level of Wolf Scouts(in terms of special rules added to them) I see no reason, whatsoever, to have them being Elite.

Dark Angels Scouts are the exact same as the standard C:SM Scouts, just without the options that the latter's got(No Hellfire Shells, no Camo Cloaks, no Land Speeder Storms).

Speaking of which: Why no Scout Bikers either?

Ideally, this is how I would do it:
If you're fielding a Ravenwing army: Scout Squads are Fast Attack, and required to have a Land Speeder Storm as transport(to represent the fact that they're acting as the vanguard and disrupting communications before the main strike) and Scout Biker Squads become Troops along with Ravenwing Support/Speeder Squadrons. Additionally, they can take and hold objectives and are deployed as standard.

If you're fielding a Deathwing army: Scout Squads are Elite/Fast Attack Choices and required to have Teleport Homers. In addition: Deathwing Terminator Squads(both Assault and Tactical) can opt to provided they are not locked in close combat, in their shooting phase, be teleported from their current location to a Scout Squad's location.
However, Deathwing squads can be teleported to a Scout Squad that is currently in close combat's position.

If you're fielding an Ironwing army: Scout Squads are Elites, but count as Troops for the purposes of deployment and the capturing and holding of objectives. Additionally, Scout Squads gain access to Demolition Charges to represent them acting as the forward element and clearing the way for the tanks.

If fielding a standard Dark Angels army: Scout Squads are Troops, with access to Land Speeder Storms and Drop Pods as transports. Weapon options are, as standard. If the army is led by Azrael or Ezekiel, then one squad can be upgraded to a "Huntsman" squad at a points cost, which results in a +1 BS increase and the restriction that the squad be armed with Stalker pattern Boltguns. Additionally, the Huntsman squad gains access to Specialist Ammunition(as per Sternguard Veterans) and cannot take a transport.

That huntsman squad would be pretty stationary, as the stalker pattern boltgun is heavy 2. Basically I just really want a scout squad able to take 2 Land Speeder Storms for Transport....

Rat: That's the point of the Huntsman squad. It's "Veteran" Scouts acting as a firebase.

I don't know, I just don't like the idea of a heavy weapons scout squad. Definately love the look of the Stalker pattern Bolter however but I don't think a squad of them would be that good. Unless of course they get Telion's special rule to pick out dudes from the unit. That would kick a lot of butt.

I don't know, I just don't like the idea of a heavy weapons scout squad.

Thats all I ever used my scouts for, I have a very nice Autocannon scout conversion from back when we could take the autocannon...Dark Angels arent meant to kill things in close combat, they kill them from a distance. Maybe its just the fact my other armies are Tau and Imperial guard so I don't know how to do the whole assault thing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

They have all different units in every slot, with different wargear and options. How would DA have this? What units should DA have that basic marines wouldn't?

The best counter-argument I have to that, is that Blood Angels had even less divergence then Dark Angels, but look what they did with their new codex. If you have the third edition rulebook, look in the appendix for Space Marines. They even make rules for space wolves using the space marine army list. So Space wolves could be rolled into C:SM as well. And I would say space wolves are more different from SM than chaos are. DA could be put into C:SM you would need probably a page of special rules and wargear, but I will be the first to admit it could be done. As others have pointed out, chaos could be rolled in as well needing two pages of special rules instead of one. If you are thinking right now 'that's just stupid' it's funny because that's how I feel about Dark Angels

ph34r wrote:The Master of the Ravenwing is supposed to have the last jetbike that the Dark Angels have.

Thats my point.

BTW, isn't it the last jetbike in the entire empire of Man?

Steelmage99 wrote:

ph34r wrote:The Master of the Ravenwing is supposed to have the last jetbike that the Dark Angels have.

Thats my point.

BTW, isn't it the last jetbike in the entire empire of Man?

No, supposedly the Successor Chapters of the Dark Angels have one each for their variation of the Ravenwing's Master.

I don't understand "lost" technology. Here we have perfectly functional jetbikes in the Imperium; why not reverse engineer the darn thing and make more. Lost technology found again!

Dude, if we gave a modern computer to the people of the 1930's, do you think they'd be able to reverse engineer it? They'd figure out the thing runs on sand, and they might even get to the desktop, but that's about it. It'd go waaaay over their heads.

Reverse engineering more advanced technology is soft sci-fi. Only GRIMDARK fiction is allowed.

Deuce11 wrote:I don't understand "lost" technology. Here we have perfectly functional jetbikes in the Imperium; why not reverse engineer the darn thing and make more. Lost technology found again!

Simple:
The Adeptus Mechanicus says that the Omnissiah/Emperor says we can't reverse engineer things. To do so is a heresy.

DarkHound wrote:Dude, if we gave a modern computer to the people of the 1930's, do you think they'd be able to reverse engineer it? They'd figure out the thing runs on sand, and they might even get to the desktop, but that's about it. It'd go waaaay over their heads.

Reverse engineering more advanced technology is soft sci-fi. Only GRIMDARK fiction is allowed.

HUH? How can you reverse engineer tech of the future? That is actual engineering haha. To use your own analogy, we are not giving a modern computer to people of the 1930's we are giving the printing press to people of 21st Century! If the Imperium can manufacture Speeders and Titans and teleportation technology than they still have the capacity to understand the engineering behind a jetbike.

Who's to say that the technology couldn't just be rediscovered and jetbikes for the DA start getting manufactured. It would be an easy fluff retcon and it would be the extremely unique Ravenwing unit the DA need. They wouldn't all be armed like Sammael though. For RW jetbike weapon loadouts i was thinking just twin-linked plasma guns. Maybe the ability to take a melee weapon for the seargeant.

Deuce11 wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Dude, if we gave a modern computer to the people of the 1930's, do you think they'd be able to reverse engineer it? They'd figure out the thing runs on sand, and they might even get to the desktop, but that's about it. It'd go waaaay over their heads.

Reverse engineering more advanced technology is soft sci-fi. Only GRIMDARK fiction is allowed.

HUH? How can you reverse engineer tech of the future? That is actual engineering haha. To use your own analogy, we are not giving a modern computer to people of the 1930's we are giving the printing press to people of 21st Century! If the Imperium can manufacture Speeders and Titans and teleportation technology than they still have the capacity to understand the engineering behind a jetbike.

You're not understanding.

It doesn't matter that they have the technology to reproduce it.

To find out what is used in making it, the original would have to be taken apart. To do so is considered heresy and punishable by death. The Adeptus Mechanicus will not tolerate the taking apart/damaging Standard Template Constructors or any form of ancient relic that has survived the Dark Age of Technology.

Except the Baal predator was reverse engineered by the blood angels and built en masse and the faster engine was put in all the other vehicles. I am pretty sure the Dark Angels will be able to do the same with the jetbike

Since when was the Baal Predator "reverse engineered"?

The Blood Angels found the STC for it.
The Blood Angels then took the STC back to Baal and set up shop there, producing it only for themselves and their Successor Chapters.
Not giving the STC over is bad, sure--but I'd love to see the Ad. Mech tell the Blood Angels to fork over a revered Chapter relic.

Minor tampering and upgrades are generally overlooked(a lot of the Baneblade/Shadowsword variants are the results of this as is the Thunderer siege tank) or just accepted based on their effectiveness.

Read the fluff for the lucifer engine. They reverse engineered it from the Baal Predator

Is that in the new Codex? Because the old I've got sitting in front of me mentions nothing of it.

Page 36
"Furthermore, the Baal Predator was also capable of much greater speed and manoeuverability than previous iterations - a trait whole-heartedly embraced by the Blood Angels and ultimately reverse-engineered and applied to many of the Chapter's other tanks by its Techmarines"

Is that the new one or not?

Is that the new one or not?

My apologies, for some reason I thought you said you have the new one sitting in front of you. I was quoting the new codex

Okay then.

So they reverse engineered just the engine?

After holding the STC plans just for themselves?

Because that pretty much was the whole "Let's see the AM tell the Blood Angels to give it up" point

Well from a justification of the Jetbikes being built by the dark angels , it has created a 'fluff' precedent. But I think the AM should go to war with the blood angels. They would crush them. Then all space marines can have fast rhinos.

The jetbikes weren't built by the Dark Angels though.

The jetbikes were built by the AM during/prior to the Horus Heresy.
During the HH, the STC was destroyed/lost.

That's the difference between the two, mate. Baal Predators can be mass produced, courtesy of the fact that there is a STC in existence for them. They can be scrapped and rebuilt if a part is finnicky or put in wrong when putting it back together.

If the jetbikes are taken apart and futzed with? There's a chance they'll be rendered as nothing but an ornate piece of salvage.

Well the STC for the Stormraven was 'found' in a back room on Mars, so the Tower of Angels has alot of locked room just ripe for STC discovery

Yeah, but we really don't need jetbikes out and about again.

The fact that the Master of the Ravenwing has the last surviving Imperial Jetbike is what makes him so uniquely special.

Yeah, but we really don't need jetbikes out and about again.

The fact that the Master of the Ravenwing has the last surviving Imperial Jetbike is what makes him so uniquely special.

If the idea of ravenwing jetbikes flying around leaves you flaccid, then Dark Angels are not the army for you

Need jetbikes? No...Want jetbikes? Hell to the yeah!

A unit of jetbikes would be extremely awesome, unique, and fluffy for the Dark Angels. They would be like the Ravenwing Company Veterans.

Volkov wrote:

Yeah, but we really don't need jetbikes out and about again.

The fact that the Master of the Ravenwing has the last surviving Imperial Jetbike is what makes him so uniquely special.

If the idea of Ravenwing jetbikes flying around leaves you flaccid, then Ravenwing is not the sub-army for you

Fix't.

I'm in it for Deathwing.

I am in it for the Ravenwing, and the plasma...and the jawa...and the S6 power weapon, oh and the Standard of Devastation. Emperor bless the Standard of devastation!

I do have a copious amount of Deathwing and I certainly have played them alot, but I just love my Ravenwing.

Have you ever played ravenwing versus deathwing? that is one interesting match.

I hope in the next DA book, they achieve a nice harmony between ravenwing, deathwing and normalwing. I also hope that it isn't overly fantastic like the current BA book (imagines scary FNP ravenwing rush lists)

candy.man wrote:I also hope that it isn't overly fantastic like the current BA book (imagines scary FNP ravenwing rush lists)

I want overly fantastic FNP ravenwing...that'd be SWEET!

But seriously...i hope as much attention is given to the DA as was given to the SW, BA, and the (im guessing) soon-to-be BT codexes. For too long the Dark Angels have had the crappiest of all the marine codexes. I want to see a fluffy but still competitive codex, with an equal emphasis on Deathwing, Ravenwing, and standard marines. That'd be the kicker wouldn't it? Our current codex makes people want to run purely RW/DW forces. I hope the next codex honestly makes me want to play normal DA marines in addition to my DW/RW.

The problem for the DA codex is that they already gave away a lot of what made the DA codex unique. Deathwing was the only way to have a terminator army, now there is Loganwing. Ravenwing was the only all biker army, now there is C:SM with Biker Captains. So, after that what is special about DA other than fluff?

DA will boil down to how creative and how far they want to push the envelope. How many new SM units will make their way into it?

SM chapters are a revolving door of crap. One book gets something new, and the following ones will most likely get it too, in addition to their new stuff.


Oh, and PLEASE, no FNP spamming. It's already gone too far with BA.

The problem for the DA codex is that they already gave away a lot of what made the DA codex unique. Deathwing was the only way to have a terminator army, now there is Loganwing. Ravenwing was the only all biker army, now there is C:SM with Biker Captains. So, after that what is special about DA other than fluff?

DA will boil down to how creative and how far they want to push the envelope. How many new SM units will make their way into it?

SM chapters are a revolving door of crap. One book gets something new, and the following ones will most likely get it too, in addition to their new stuff.


Oh, and PLEASE, no FNP spamming. It's already gone too far with BA.

I agree with most of what you said. Dark Angels need to be made to stand out even more, which is why I really like the idea of turning them into a gunline marine army simply because its a niche that space marines haven't yet filled. Sure there is razorback spam/long fang spam, but that is just the same two units

As for feel no pain. I think its absurd that it is being handed out like candy. Some armies have no problem dealing with it, but armies reliant on volume of wounds get majorly hosed

Volkov wrote:

The problem for the DA codex is that they already gave away a lot of what made the DA codex unique. Deathwing was the only way to have a terminator army, now there is Loganwing. Ravenwing was the only all biker army, now there is C:SM with Biker Captains. So, after that what is special about DA other than fluff?

DA will boil down to how creative and how far they want to push the envelope. How many new SM units will make their way into it?

SM chapters are a revolving door of crap. One book gets something new, and the following ones will most likely get it too, in addition to their new stuff.


Oh, and PLEASE, no FNP spamming. It's already gone too far with BA.

I agree with most of what you said. Dark Angels need to be made to stand out even more, which is why I really like the idea of turning them into a gunline marine army simply because its a niche that space marines haven't yet filled. Sure there is razorback spam/long fang spam, but that is just the same two units

As for feel no pain. I think its absurd that it is being handed out like candy. Some armies have no problem dealing with it, but armies reliant on volume of wounds get majorly hosed

I'd prefer it if they weren't a gunline and rather an army that excels at shooting. DA were (I might be wrong) the most tactical of the legions because of L. Johnson's abilities. I'd almost like it if they had an almost Eldar playstyle. Where you use a certain unit for a certain task, instead of this 'do it all' marine mentality. Which might not be possible, but it'd be cool. Perhaps giving Tacticals an ability that twin-links bolters or something that would make it so you're wasting a big ability if you're in CC.

As for CC, DW should just be monsters compared to other Terminators. I'd like to see Relic Blades or, perhaps the 'OG' relic blade - the Black Sword as an option. Imagine 2+3++ str.6

Just my thoughts anyway.

hy guys...
I hope you will excuse my poor english...

I find an intersting discussion here and the proposals for DW and RW... they're amazing but I think we should keep in mind tha game balnce

I Like to imagine DA as grim stubborn warriors, that advance in the battlefield with determination... The rule "slow and purposeful" is perfect for this, i imagine.

I think DA vets should be normal vets with slow and purposeful and the option to have 2 heavy weapons and some other nice stuff...

And maybe HQ powers could be to improve their movement...I don't know... Chaplains allow you to ignore the slow and purposeful rule when you want and masters allow to roll 3 dices for movement instead of 2? ... oh and the vets should be stubborn, of course and maybe a 5++ save given by one of the keepers (is it broken?)
Gw already used this approach with Legion of damned so it doesn't seem a bad idea to me...

for the DW I think they should be a little better than normal termies... A wolf-guard style unit composition? it relfectsthe fact their equipment is ncient and strange... and maybe they scatter 1 d6 because of the better mastery of ancient technology...

To enphasize the tactical aspect of the chapter I'd like to see fun rules for flanking with the ravenwing and coordinated teleports with the deathwing and maybe devastators that split fire (come on... if that stupid Viking/indians/lycantropes can, why DA shouldn't?)


I don't think DA should have melee monsters units (such as 3++ DW termies ) it just isn't their gameplay...

For the jetbikes... they would be terribly funny, but they just aren't fair ... there aren't minis and eldar players will be annoyed... leave them the jetbikes come on....

Technically, the oldest Marine codex right now is Daemonhunters, not Dark Angels.

I think a better thing to ask - rather than "should tactical squads be allowed two heavy weapons?" - is "how can we make Dark Angels more shooty without encouraging further Razorback-spam lists?"

Volkov wrote:

The problem for the DA codex is that they already gave away a lot of what made the DA codex unique. Deathwing was the only way to have a terminator army, now there is Loganwing. Ravenwing was the only all biker army, now there is C:SM with Biker Captains. So, after that what is special about DA other than fluff?

DA will boil down to how creative and how far they want to push the envelope. How many new SM units will make their way into it?

SM chapters are a revolving door of crap. One book gets something new, and the following ones will most likely get it too, in addition to their new stuff.


Oh, and PLEASE, no FNP spamming. It's already gone too far with BA.

I agree with most of what you said. Dark Angels need to be made to stand out even more, which is why I really like the idea of turning them into a gunline marine army simply because its a niche that space marines haven't yet filled. Sure there is razorback spam/long fang spam, but that is just the same two units

As for feel no pain. I think its absurd that it is being handed out like candy. Some armies have no problem dealing with it, but armies reliant on volume of wounds get majorly hosed

The above quotes bring me back to my original point yet again. DA has been covered by the nilla dex. Get over it. If I were a DA player I'd be pummeling GW with emails for a simple PDF to work in conjunction with the nilla dex that provides DA Special Characters and gives some chapter tactics and special DA/DW abilities.

What should the Dark Angels get? About two pages of wonky special rules, a few Darkly McDarkenstein VonDark the Third (dark) special characters and, I dunno, Dark Plasmaguns or something in the space marines codex.

It would save so much time and effort to just admit it. Time and effort that can go into armies that actually play differently than one more batch of power armor/bolter/chainsword guys.

ok... I'd love also a simple add-on to vanilla marines codex...
but... for god's sake.... GIVE IT TO US!!! At least something like that!
" pages would be enough for the worst problems... Storm shields,Hq stats and eternal warrior rules, machine spirit...

Characterising DA definitely isn't hard...

Frankly I find the notion of the DA being added to the vanilla marine dex insulting to the highest degree. Having been a DA player since 3rd edition and read every book in which theyve even been mentioned, I disagree whole-heartedly about them being added to the vanilla dex. The fact that their current codex is nothing but a pale version of the C:SM codex should suggest that they be given the same amount of attention as the BA, and SW. They deserve their own codex, sure their current one is bland, but if you'll remember back the the BA PDF, they were pretty bland too. Now they've got Deep-Striking landraiders, librarian dreadnoughts, and completely unique and utterly fluffy lists compared to their 4th ed pdf. The same should happen for the DA. I honestly think all the "just add em to the vanilla marine 'dex" talk is stemming out of the fact that their current dex is bland. Their refusal to accept any help, unless it's completely unavoidable, combined with their loner nature, means that it doesnt make any sense for them to be in the C:SM. They are supposed to be just as unique an army as the BA, GW just refuses to do them justice.

They deserve their own codex. They NEED their own codex. Anything else is unacceptable, and any DA player worth a damn would agree with me.

final_boss325 wrote:Frankly I find the notion of the DA being added to the vanilla marine dex insulting to the highest degree. Having been a DA player since 3rd edition and read every book in which theyve even been mentioned, I disagree whole-heartedly about them being added to the vanilla dex. The fact that their current codex is nothing but a pale version of the C:SM codex should suggest that they be given the same amount of attention as the BA, and SW. They deserve their own codex, sure their current one is bland, but if you'll remember back the the BA PDF, they were pretty bland too. Now they've got Deep-Striking landraiders, librarian dreadnoughts, and completely unique and utterly fluffy lists compared to their 4th ed pdf. The same should happen for the DA. I honestly think all the "just add em to the vanilla marine 'dex" talk is stemming out of the fact that their current dex is bland. Their refusal to accept any help, unless it's completely unavoidable, combined with their loner nature, means that it doesnt make any sense for them to be in the C:SM. They are supposed to be just as unique an army as the BA, GW just refuses to do them justice.

They deserve their own codex. They NEED their own codex. Anything else is unacceptable, and any DA player worth a damn would agree with me.

Insulting to the highest degree?! Sheesh, its a game. I don't believe it, but I'll say they should be added to the Codex: Space Marines for the fun of it.

It's not so much that their current Codex is bland, it's just the Dark Angels don't seem that divergent. What are their main differences from Codex Marines?
- Deathwing
- Ravenwing
- Prevalence of ranged combat and plasma
- Interrogator Chaplains (who some have said shouldn't be on the field of battle)

that's roughly it. Blood Angels have:
- Red Thirst
- Close Combat
- Deep Strike
- Death Company
- Fast Vehicles
- Sanguinary Guard
- Baal Predator
- Storm Raven

Space wolves have:
- Counter-assault/true grit
- Close-quarters
- Lack of subtlety.
- Thunder wolf cavalry (facepalm)
- Wolf Scouts
- Blood Claws
- Long Fangs
- Lone Wolves
- Wolf Guard

In GAME TERMS (which is the main purpose of a Codex, to provide their game rules), I'd argue Dark Angels to be the least divergent.

I don't believe they should be in the 'nilla Codex, I don't believe they quite justify their own Codex either. To me, the lesser of the two evils would be getting their own Codex, but I feel they would do equally well with a PDF.
I do intend to try creating a Dark Angel fandex, but they really aren't that different from Codex marines.

Even so, just remember, there doesn't appear to be any intentions to redo them in the near future either.

As I said, IMO they shouldn't be lumped into the Codex: Space Marines, but they don't quite deserve their own Codex either. Which makes a tricky rock and hard place.

Actually, subjectively speaking it feels like the Dark Angels, even as they are now, are much more divergent than Blood Angels from C:SM. At least to me anyway. BA are kindof a mishmash of various things which don't feel TAHT different from C:SM-- they could have added in some simple rules to convert C:SM to C:BA.

Does anybody else think its ridiculous that SM get chapter specific codex's that take updating time away from other races? Why can't they just make a special chapter codex that has chapter specific rules / special characters for each one? This is craziness... it just makes the most recently updated chapters OP and the old ones terrible (BA and SW are amazing now and DA and BT suck)

final_boss325 wrote:Frankly I find the notion of the DA being added to the vanilla marine dex insulting to the highest degree. Having been a DA player since 3rd edition and read every book in which theyve even been mentioned, I disagree whole-heartedly about them being added to the vanilla dex. The fact that their current codex is nothing but a pale version of the C:SM codex should suggest that they be given the same amount of attention as the BA, and SW. They deserve their own codex, sure their current one is bland, but if you'll remember back the the BA PDF, they were pretty bland too. Now they've got Deep-Striking landraiders, librarian dreadnoughts, and completely unique and utterly fluffy lists compared to their 4th ed pdf. The same should happen for the DA. I honestly think all the "just add em to the vanilla marine 'dex" talk is stemming out of the fact that their current dex is bland. Their refusal to accept any help, unless it's completely unavoidable, combined with their loner nature, means that it doesnt make any sense for them to be in the C:SM. They are supposed to be just as unique an army as the BA, GW just refuses to do them justice.

They deserve their own codex. They NEED their own codex. Anything else is unacceptable, and any DA player worth a damn would agree with me.

No offense, and I mean that sincerely, DA players are not entitled to anything. If you had your characters and could build competitive 5th Ed lists that fit the fluffy style then you should happy.

Above you make the argument that because SW and BA got love, that DA should too. Ummm that is not a reason. You are showing with you lack of reasons for a DA specific dex that they are simply not unique enough, given the breadth of the nilla dex, to warrant their own.

DA and BA use to be combined in Angels of Death, but I guess someone up in GW thought that two books means twice the sales, so they got split ever since the third edition. The over flanderization of the normal marines and Space Wolves really overshadowed the DA's individuality. Templars were a special Campaign Chapter made for Armaggedon that eventually got promoted to full Codex book chapter. (this is kind of ironic, since they are the only successor chapter to get their own codex). Personally Black Templars can be easily done with a few modifications to the standard SM codex. Just include a few special characters and give Combine Squads (from the Guard codex) to Tact and Scout squads in exchange for Chapter Tactics. Space Wolves are forgiven since they are much more than just an "offshot" of a SM army, and share little in common with the standard SM army.

I don't want a codex because BA and SW have one (but i feel that GW owe this to DA players) ...
I just want the opportunity to play a competitive and characteristic army... that's all... make a f°*§ing pdf, all right!!!

Anyway I'm not here to discussa about GW management but about weird fantasies on DA possible rules!!!
Slow and purposeful and 5++ for inner circle!!!!!
hit and run for RW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not so much that their current Codex is bland, it's just the Dark Angels don't seem that divergent. What are their main differences from Codex Marines?
- Deathwing
- Ravenwing
- Prevalence of ranged combat and plasma
- Interrogator Chaplains (who some have said shouldn't be on the field of battle)

that's roughly it. Blood Angels have:
- Red Thirst
- Close Combat
- Deep Strike
- Death Company
- Fast Vehicles
- Sanguinary Guard
- Baal Predator
- Storm Raven

You realize how little blood angels differed from normal SM before their new codex or the PDF army list for that matter? Dark Angels could be rolled back into normal SMs, or they could be made more different. But trying to argue that they should be rolled back in with SM based on the most recent BA codex just seems like a weak argument

Volkov wrote:

It's not so much that their current Codex is bland, it's just the Dark Angels don't seem that divergent. What are their main differences from Codex Marines?
- Deathwing
- Ravenwing
- Prevalence of ranged combat and plasma
- Interrogator Chaplains (who some have said shouldn't be on the field of battle)

that's roughly it. Blood Angels have:
- Red Thirst
- Close Combat
- Deep Strike
- Death Company
- Fast Vehicles
- Sanguinary Guard
- Baal Predator
- Storm Raven

You realize how little blood angels differed from normal SM before their new codex or the PDF army list for that matter? Dark Angels could be rolled back into normal SMs, or they could be made more different. But trying to argue that they should be rolled back in with SM based on the most recent BA codex just seems like a weak argument

That's the thing for me though, for Blood Angels, there was a lot of scope to make them more different. They fight in the kind of fast, brutally close combat manner that the Space Marine codex could never have catered for. Add onto this the 'special rules'/twists of Red Thirst/Black Rage and Over-charged STC and I'd argue the Blood Angels do deserve their own Codex. In terms of the variety of play-styles available, I'd say the BA Codex is very good. Fluff-wise its a load of s**t, but that's not what I'm arguing.

Personally, I struggle to see how divergent Dark Angels can be made - or should be made. They fight in a predominantly ranged manner, as do most Space Marine armies. The typical Space Marine play-style is fire-power based, not to the same extent as Dark Angels, but firepower based none-the-less. Similarly, Dark Angels don't really have that many characteristics (in potential game-play) that set them apart. Whilst the Blood Angels have the thirst/rage, Dark Angels are secretive and stubborn, yet the Dark Angels are much more difficult to represent in-game.
Finally, I struggle to see what extra units could be added for the Dark Angels. They can't really have extra veterans (ala Vanguard, Sternguard, Sanguinary) as their veterans are all composed into the Deathwing. Most types of ranged-units are now catered for also. Something along the lines of Deep-striking Land Raiders (facepalm) and Storm-Ravens wouldn't work as Dark Angels aren't so in-your-face. Similarly, they don't use drop-pods or deep-strike as much as other Chapters.
All I can really think of for extra Dark Angels units are:
- Company Veterans
- Mortis Dreadnought
- Plasma-Predator

But to me the Dark Angels can't be made much more divergent and probably shouldn't be. It's in fluff that Dark Angels really differ, not in game terms.


I'm gonna leave this here though, as this thread is about wish-listing rather than arguing whether they should or shouldn't have a Cpdex - I apologise for my earlier hypocrisy - however I do still intend to try my hand at a Dark Angels fan-dex and as I said, I don't think Dark Angels are divergent enough to justify their own Codex, but they don't deserve to be lumped into the Space Marine Codex either. They will get their own Codex, in simple business terms they should, I just don't think they're that divergent in game-play, just fluff. As I said though, let's leave this argument here, eh?

Just Dave wrote:
It's not so much that their current Codex is bland, it's just the Dark Angels don't seem that divergent. What are their main differences from Codex Marines?
- Deathwing
- Ravenwing
- Prevalence of ranged combat and plasma
- Interrogator Chaplains (who some have said shouldn't be on the field of battle)

that's roughly it. Blood Angels have:
- Red Thirst
- Close Combat
- Deep Strike
- Death Company
- Fast Vehicles
- Sanguinary Guard
- Baal Predator
- Storm Raven

Space wolves have:
- Counter-assault/true grit
- Close-quarters
- Lack of subtlety.
- Thunder wolf cavalry (facepalm)
- Wolf Scouts
- Blood Claws
- Long Fangs
- Lone Wolves
- Wolf Guard

In GAME TERMS (which is the main purpose of a Codex, to provide their game rules), I'd argue Dark Angels to be the least divergent.

I don't believe they should be in the 'nilla Codex, I don't believe they quite justify their own Codex either. To me, the lesser of the two evils would be getting their own Codex, but I feel they would do equally well with a PDF.
I do intend to try creating a Dark Angel fandex, but they really aren't that different from Codex marines.

Even so, just remember, there doesn't appear to be any intentions to redo them in the near future either.

As I said, IMO they shouldn't be lumped into the Codex: Space Marines, but they don't quite deserve their own Codex either. Which makes a tricky rock and hard place.

What you just said, just proved my point, not targeting you though. Just because their current dex doesnt show how much they differ from the codex marines, doesnt mean they dont differ radically.

Deathwing, ravenwing, and Int. Chappies might just be all they have now. But the belief is that they should have so much more.

Their current dex is just a poorer 5th edition C:SM with some different special characters and one or two different units. How bout expanding on some of their current units before we add more?

-Since in the vanilla dex they state that the first companies are comprised of Sternguard and Vanguard how about these options for deathwing terminators? Specialist ammo for the sternguard termies, and PW, LC, and Relic Blades for the Vanguard Termies.

-A plasma predator would be awesome.

-Several DA HQ units need reworking. Besides upping their WS to 6, Sammael needs to be an IC. Belial should either a)keep his Sword of Silence and Storm bolter, and give him a few special rules, or b)give him the ability to change his wargear to ANYTHING the terminators can carry. Librarian powers need a revamp. Finally give us back Asmodai and Namaan!!!

As for new units:

-Units of jetbikes for company vets of the ravenwing, extremely fluffy and very unique as far as SM go.

-MORTIS DREADNOUGHT!!! Give us dreadnought options for a gun per dreadnought arm. Two plasma cannons/autocannons sounds great!

As for special rules:

-A newer more beneficial version of Intractable could be done, Stubborn (as we used to be) would be nice. The bikers need Skilled Rider back. And how about a Descent of Angels, or Heroic Intervention style rules for the DW termies?

Just Dave wrote:
Sheesh, it's just a game.

I look at it the same way we Americans look at our football teams. I take this game just as seriously as they take the super bowl. If you don't have the same passion for the game that I do, that's you. No faulting you for it, so dont fault me.

Units of Jetbikes?! I like it and can you say pre-heresy legion counts-as?!

I would really love to see the Dark Angels get some really bad ass special units.
And get vechiles no one can ever use. Like the Storm Raven. As it would make sense as they have to deploy at different locations quickly to kill the Fallen.
And then they also should get some their own land raiders and their own types of Stern guard and their own types of long range bad-asses.

I'm all for them getting some fancy new units, but it clearly states that Sammeal (and successor chapter equivalents) has the only remaining imperial jet-bikes. The Dark Angels can go years at a time without finding any fallen and the Storm Raven is more assault (ramp) based and therefore not so suitable. Finally, Sternguard are veterans whilst Dark Angel Veterans are in the deathwing...

Just Dave wrote:I'm all for them getting some fancy new units, but it clearly states that Sammeal (and successor chapter equivalents) has the only remaining imperial jet-bikes. The Dark Angels can go years at a time without finding any fallen and the Storm Raven is more assault (ramp) based and therefore not so suitable. Finally, Sternguard are veterans whilst Dark Angel Veterans are in the deathwing...

-First, as if fluff has ever stood in GW's way before. Sammael having the only remaining jetbike could be easily retconned. Or the DA techmarines could discover a "breakthrough" that allows them to reverse engineer it. Or, hell, they could discover the plans somewhere, allowing them to build more; worked for the BA and their Storm Raven.

-The 'nilla marine codex states that Sternguard and Vanguard are from the first company, the deathwing is the DA first company. I don't see the issue there.

Because Dark Angel first company is compromised of only Deathwing Terminators. Not Vanguard or Sternguard.

I think the idea of the reverse engineering was covered earlier in this thread, it requires an STC and said STC is gone. Look at page 4 (top).

Just Dave wrote:Because Dark Angel first company is compromised of only Deathwing Terminators. Not Vanguard or Sternguard.

I think the idea of the reverse engineering was covered earlier in this thread, it requires an STC and said STC is gone. Look at page 4 (top).

1. If you'll read my post again, I specifically said Sternguard and Vanguard Deathwing Terminators. Specialist ammo in storm bolters for Sternguard Deathwing Terminators (or they can have combi-weapons, no biggie). And Twin LC, Power Weapons and Relic Blades for Vanguard Deathwing Terminators.

2. Like I said, since when has fluff stopped GW. Look at the new SW codex, and the BA one for that matter. Retconns and rewrites abound. They can always find another STC fluff-wise, who said there was only one?

final_boss325 wrote:-The 'nilla marine codex states that Sternguard and Vanguard are from the first company, the deathwing is the DA first company. I don't see the issue there.

final_boss325 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Because Dark Angel first company is compromised of only Deathwing Terminators. Not Vanguard or Sternguard.

I think the idea of the reverse engineering was covered earlier in this thread, it requires an STC and said STC is gone. Look at page 4 (top).

1. If you'll read my post again, I specifically said Sternguard and Vanguard Deathwing Terminators. Specialist ammo in storm bolters for Sternguard Deathwing Terminators (or they can have combi-weapons, no biggie). And Twin LC, Power Weapons and Relic Blades for Vanguard Deathwing Terminators.

2. Like I said, since when has fluff stopped GW. Look at the new SW codex, and the BA one for that matter. Retconns and rewrites abound. They can always find another STC fluff-wise, who said there was only one?

OK, I've just quoted you and I don't see anything about Sternguard or Vanguard terminators?

People complain enough about the Space Wolf and Blood Angel codex eliminating the need or uniqueness of the Space Marine Codex. Why can't Deathwing just be better skilled Terminators rather than Terminators that have access to everything? Same goes for Raven-wing. I don't think I've ever read anywhere stating Deathwing was the best equipped, just the most skilled. The problem with the Dark Angel codex is that it's not divergent enough, not that it should be even more like the Space Marine Codex.

I personally don't recall that much re-writing of past history within the Space Wolf Codex at-least, I don't own the Blood Angel Codex, but I don't recall any altering of fluff in regards to the heresy-era. None-the-less, I would much rather they didn't make another codex along the same lines as Blood Angels and Space Wolves, lest we see deep-striking Baneblades, Dark Angels riding Angels into battle and Ezekial having stat's akin to a Hive Tyrant.
The Blood Angels and Space Wolves are barely respected as codices due to how OTT they have gone in places, I'd much rather any future codices were 'reasonable' and more in line with the seemingly much more balanced Dark Eldar Codex.

Just Dave wrote:I personally don't recall that much re-writing of past history within the Space Wolf Codex at-least, I don't own the Blood Angel Codex, but I don't recall any altering of fluff in regards to the heresy-era. None-the-less, I would much rather they didn't make another codex along the same lines as Blood Angels and Space Wolves, lest we see deep-striking Baneblades, Dark Angels riding Angels into battle and Ezekial having stat's akin to a Hive Tyrant.
The Blood Angels and Space Wolves are barely respected as codices due to how OTT they have gone in places, I'd much rather any future codices were 'reasonable' and more in line with the seemingly much more balanced Dark Eldar Codex.

Slippery slope much?

I don't see how one minor part of the fluff (Jet bike availability) being rewritten=Super over-the-top stuff like deep-striking landraiders. Really, I'm not a Dark Angels player, but is it that hard to come up with new stuff for them, much like what happened for the Blood Angels codex?

Just Dave wrote:I think a better thing to ask - rather than "should tactical squads be allowed two heavy weapons?" - is "how can we make Dark Angels more shooty without encouraging further Razorback-spam lists?"

An even better question would be: Why are we digging up threads from April?