I think so. Too many people are quitting, not enough people are joining.

I love it when people make threads like this.

DnD has taken quite a hit since video gaming has come into play, and MMO's, but its not something that will completely die out. DnD has been a game thats effectively been 'passed down' in generations so to speak, it will be reccomended, people will tease and try it out. And thats what keeps it going.

4.0 has also pissed off quite a bit of 'regulars' with the massive changes made to the system and thats cut down a lot of people, but there will always be another generation that had been 'introduced' into DnD with the latest version. People will adjust, get used to it and enjoy it. This all had happened with 1.0, 2.0, 3.0/3.5 and etc. Its a repeating process as the system is changed.

Until the rampant christian parent groups saying "DND IS THE SOURCE OF ALL EVIL" and make it outlawed, somehow. DnD is here to stay.

I'm sorry, but has it ever been alive? I'm pretty sure DnD is an "underground," private game shared between friends. Some areas have more players than others. Someone will always be playing, and frankly I'd rather it stay a private game than be something mainstream so it keeps more of it's quirkiness.

We can all blame hasbro for that they have been determand to kill it ever since they bought it!

On some D&D boards there's talk of how the parent company really doesn't care about the 'pen and paper' side of D&D anymore - to the point where some people, including many who were initially involved with developing the ORIGINAL D&D!, think that the time might be coming soon when they sell off the rights to the 'pen and paper' side of things, and for not that much money, all things considered...

I think someone cares, considering they still release a metric ton of books compared to most companies!

Role-playing games are in a weird place right now as I understand it. A lot of the 'big names' for what was always a small niche are in what can charitably be called a 'regrouping' position. WotC has dropped the Star Wars RPG, White Wolf has slowed their release schedule a bit, and Steve Jackson Games has admitted they make more from Munchkkin than GURPS these days.

Some 2nd tier companies are doing OK, and there's a lot of small indie companies... And, really, many of the 2nd tier companies are not much bigger than the indie companies.

Like many niche hobbies (like, you know, wargaming) there's a lot of turmoil as the economy sucks and the industry has to evolve into a stable position. Gamers need to hope it doesn't evolve into dead. 'Cause dead is stable, but it's not much fun.

The 90s was really a boom period for RPGs. There were a lot of small companies putting out their own game lines or d20 materials. It was not at all uncommon for even less-well-known game lines to release a new source book every couple of months. That's not practical now: it's both financially unsound, and would turn off the fans as previous abuses by various companies make that kind of release schedule seem like a cash-grab. The market seems to be favoring bigger, self-contained games these days.

It'll probably rebound, but it could be a while.

Anyone got any publishing/sales figures for WotC? I suspect they're at least as big as GW, if not bigger.

they're still the #1 RPG on the market according to ICN but they didn't specifically list the % marketshare. i won't believe the rumors that it's "dying" until d&d drops to #2 for the first time ever. IIRC, pathfinder was number 2 this past quarter. that being said, i don't like 4e and my gaming group's opinion was unanimous. we dropped 4e and went to pathfinder after trying it out for 5 levels. the DM and I both bought 1-2 WOTC rpg books per month for the entirety of 3/3.5 and they've made almost nothing from us since 4e (we bought the core book sets when it was released and that's it). now that star wars RPG/minis are cancelled (in addition to 3.5 d&d and DDM skirmish), i've effectively been abandoned by WOTC.

I'd love to see sales figures, especially ones that compare D&D and Pathfinder.

And hell, all available RPGs numbers!

I realise this does not really address the OP directly. sorry if this is a silly question, but:

If the fans don't like the 4th Ed why not continue to play a previous ed?

I am assuming that most (A)D&D takes place in a domestic situation, but surely eeven gaming clubs could choose to play with preferred rules if they wished.

that's what a large number are doing. some are playing 3.5 while others want a bit of a change so they're playing 3.75/pathfinder (that's what we did).

We can certainly do that, but that will certainly speed D&D's demise, if it is indeed heading that way, wouldn't it?

Whilst I can see your point Alpharius, if ed 4 is unpopular then it probably won't get played just to keep D&D alive.

If people are playing an earlier version then she still lives and breathes!

Alpharius wrote:We can certainly do that, but that will certainly speed D&D's demise, if it is indeed heading that way, wouldn't it?

it wouldn't speed D&D's demise, but it might 4th ed's. the only "negative" effect would be the early introduction of 5th edition. as someone who is skipping out on this edition, i'm ok with that. there is zero chance that hasbro/wotc would just give up on d&d after one possibly underperforming edition.

Actualy D&D has died once already when TSR went under. There was a giant What? from the comuity and then we went, we will still play it.
Then the Magic Pikachu saved the game and we have been hearing that the game has died or is being killed.
I think if those who "Hate" 4e are some of those that feel the game has been dead for a long time.

I guess I still don't understand how an underground game can "die." What's the difference between a "dead" game and a "living" game?

warboss wrote:

Alpharius wrote:We can certainly do that, but that will certainly speed D&D's demise, if it is indeed heading that way, wouldn't it?

it wouldn't speed D&D's demise, but it might 4th ed's. the only "negative" effect would be the early introduction of 5th edition. as someone who is skipping out on this edition, i'm ok with that. there is zero chance that hasbro/wotc would just give up on d&d after one possibly underperforming edition.

they would make 4.5, fix all the problems and then make 2000 books each one breaking the system more and more until it is nigh on unplayable except by powergamers. hmmmm Déjà vu

there is nothing wrong with 4e. if you don't like it play another edition/game. really isn't that hard.

wanted to add that the last part isn't aimed at you Warboss just all the people who piss and moan every day about it. Pretty sure you know what I mean.

They do not plan on making 4.5 or 5e at the moment.
The plan is/was to suport it heavly online.
If rules changes need to be made they can be made On-Line and then when the next printing of whatever book the changes was printed, it would be with the updates [I would love GW to do this].
They are going on the assumption that at least one person in each group is Internest savy and has a WotC account.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:there is nothing wrong with 4e. if you don't like it play another edition/game. really isn't that hard.

wanted to add that the last part isn't aimed at you Warboss just all the people who piss and moan every day about it. Pretty sure you know what I mean.

that's exactly what my group unanimously did. we all didn't like the changes so opted for pathfinder. if you works for others, good for them. the point of gaming is to have fun so if someone is enjoining 4e while i enjoy 3.75e, then power to us all. as for the pissing and moaning, that's what the internet is for! al gore designed it for that very reason in the 1970's... that and porn but he doesn't like to talk about that part..

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I guess I still don't understand how an underground game can "die." What's the difference between a "dead" game and a "living" game?

I don't think D&D is exactly "underground" when you can walk into national book seller chains and be nearly guaranteed to find all the books. This is like saying M:TG or H. P. Lovecraft stories are underground.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I guess I still don't understand how an underground game can "die." What's the difference between a "dead" game and a "living" game?

I depends on who is playing it.

warboss wrote:

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:there is nothing wrong with 4e. if you don't like it play another edition/game. really isn't that hard.

wanted to add that the last part isn't aimed at you Warboss just all the people who piss and moan every day about it. Pretty sure you know what I mean.

that's exactly what my group unanimously did. we all didn't like the changes so opted for pathfinder. if you works for others, good for them. the point of gaming is to have fun so if someone is enjoining 4e while i enjoy 3.75e, then power to us all. as for the pissing and moaning, that's what the internet is for! al gore designed it for that very reason in the 1970's... that and porn but he doesn't like to talk about that part..

which is what I was intending to say. just because i don't like 3.5 or pathfinder doesn't make it bad (well it does for me, but that is a group issue, not a system issue really). not every system is for every person. doesn't make them bad (which was my intent, sorry I didn't make that very clear). I'm personally just tired of the 4e bashing. I don't go out of my way to bash Pathfinder or 3.5, you know what I mean?

NOTE: All "you"s are general not directed at Warboss. Wanted to make that clear.


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Manchu wrote:I don't think D&D is exactly "underground" when you can walk into national book seller chains and be nearly guaranteed to find all the books. This is like saying M:TG or H. P. Lovecraft stories are underground.

Magic is far from underground, HP Lovecraft isn't very well known though. Here in Florida (don't know about the rest of the United States) his works aren't in the Curriculum. In addition, There hasn't been a major Hollywood production involving him (aside from Reanimator, which was awesome).

Lovecraft's works, like the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide, can be found in any Barnes & Noble in America. Maybe they're obscure compared to Twilight but underground? Hardly.

ohh yeah, but they aren't very well known, doesn't make them underground but it makes them obscure, which was my point.

c34r34lk1ll3r wrote:Magic is far from underground, HP Lovecraft isn't very well known though. Here in Florida (don't know about the rest of the United States) his works aren't in the Curriculum. In addition, There hasn't been a major Hollywood production involving him (aside from Reanimator, which was awesome).

I think Guillermo Del Toro is working on At The Mountains of Madness. The lack of memorable and accurate HP Lovecraft movies is probably a mix of obscurity and difficulty in filming the movies so the look convincing.The HP Lovecraft Historical Society has done some great low=budget indie versions, too!

Call of Cthulhu being one. pretty much made of astronomically epic win.

I think it's interesting to note that the majority of people who know nothing about DnD (normal people who play sports and hang out drinking energy drinks,lol) think of DnD as the dorkiest thing possble. I hate this.

This misconception is what keeps new players from joining. If everyone thinks of DnD as the epitome of "Dork-dom", how can they count on new players joining?

My grandfather, for instance, utterly hates D&D. He thinks of it as a plauge, a drug, a lifestyle that you can't escape from, the worse possible thing you can do in life. Being a moderate player, I could care less how he feels about my hobbies.

But he's not the only one! Almost everyone I know thinks of D&D like this! I find this utterly shocking....I can't even tell people what book I carry around. It's always like:
"What's that book you're reading?"
"um,the D&D players handbook"
"wtf are you reading that for???"
"cuz I like to play it sometimes, and I'm rolling a wizard"
"Seriously, I'm never talking to you again.Dork"

Samus_aran115 wrote:I think it's interesting to note that the majority of people who know nothing about DnD (normal people who play sports and hang out drinking energy drinks,lol) think of DnD as the dorkiest thing possble. I hate this.

This misconception is what keeps new players from joining. If everyone thinks of DnD as the epitome of "Dork-dom", how can they count on new players joining?

My grandfather, for instance, utterly hates D&D. He thinks of it as a plauge, a drug, a lifestyle that you can't escape from, the worse possible thing you can do in life. Being a moderate player, I could care less how he feels about my hobbies.

But he's not the only one! Almost everyone I know thinks of D&D like this! I find this utterly shocking....I can't even tell people what book I carry around. It's always like:
"What's that book you're reading?"
"um,the D&D players handbook"
"wtf are you reading that for???"
"cuz I like to play it sometimes, and I'm rolling a wizard"
"Seriously, I'm never talking to you again.Dork"

Just keep your sense of humor

my old roommate asked me once when i was headed out to a D&D game what i had in my duffel bag. i told her it was the books and minis that i needed to run the game (i was the DM) and she was noticably relieved. she then asked me if i sometimes carried my tights in there... and was serious. she actually thought most gamers ran around in tights like an old robin hood movie.

The hobbies that most of us have chosen are certainly 'misunderstood' at best.

I think we all knew, either at 'sign on' or shortly thereafter, that we were going to have to tolerate a certain amount of ridicule and/or scorn.

Happily, I don't think most of us care!

I don't mean underground as in you can't find books, I mean underground as in you don't walk into McDonalds and see people playing DnD. You don't typically play DnD for family Christmas get-togethers like you might monopoly or checkers or something. For the most part you see it played in people's houses or sometimes at nerd stores. The average American has and will never see a DnD game in action. I still haven't gotten an answer as to the difference of it being alive or dead yet.

tru dat, i just keep quiet about my geeky hobbies at school and such.

This is something that stops being a problem as soon as you grow up. Self-consciousness about how geeky or immature our hobbies seem always reminds me of that awesome quote from C. S. Lewis:

Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

Back in the 80s, real stigma for D&D (ideas that it was connected to satanism, or suicide) were much more common, but it was a popular fad and you could probably find a group easily at every town and most high schools in America.

I had NO problems with any of the 'problems' back in the day.

My parents had no problem with my AD&D and Gamma World gaming.

No one ever worried about suicide due to RPGs, and I never heard a hint of Satanism either!

Maybe I was just lucky, or had awesome parents.

Or maybe the 'witch hunts' over D&D were more hype than reality?

Either way - that is an AWESOME quote Mannahnin!

I've been D&Ding since 1978, the only time I've had an interesting reaction was in the 90's we played at a friend's house and his flatmate while interested in what we were doing and watching suddenly blurted out "how do you buy all the books and dice if the game is illegal?" We just looked at her and burst into laughter. She weathered the laughter with good humour and then we explained the game and what some of the media issues had been. She didn't play but at least she was a little more informed.

As for the 4.0 vs 3.5 debate, I currently play both and enjoy both, and for us its all about being with your friends and having a good time, no matter what the game system.

I doubt DnD will ever die. After all, I'm still having fun with it, as are a great deal of my friends, their friends and their friend's friends, and as long as that happens, it lives. Also, I tried out 4 and although I prefer 3.5, I still found it enjoyable. It's all about the kind of player you are.

I think the Player Dynamics have changed to.
My group concists of.
-Old Scholl Player from the late 70's, who hates everthing since 1st edition
-Myself a Gamer who enjoys both RPGs and Wargames
-A Player from the Early 80's who still is confused and does not rememeber the summer of 68
-A Practicing Wiccan who started to play in the late 80's and cant roll dice to save his life, but always seems to land the finishing blow
,-A player from the early 90's that is all about the story.
Abd the 2 New guys to the Group
-Played back in 2nd and has come back into 4th and is loving it.
-The realy new guy, he has PRG'd through his life, but only on Computersd and now is have a great time with the Pen and Paper side.

I had an uncle whose family was very conservative Christian, and one time at a holiday gathering when I brought it up he shut down the conversation with something about “we don’t talk about things like that.” When I was little I remember a couple of adult babysitters who also had heard satanic rumors and such. No serious problems, but I became directly aware of the crazy stuff folks had heard.

I have had friends and gaming buddies whose own parents burned their books, trashed their miniatures, (etc.) during the 80s hysteria, though. Some people really got the wrong idea, and took it way, way, too far. Pat Pulling is a particularly sad and extreme case. Note that the following article by RPG designing great Mike Stackpole is from 1990.

http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html

I find it hard to believe that cristians actually believe in some of the things they say. sometimes I just think they try to start trouble....D&D?Satanic? Do they complain about 40k because it's spreading the emperor's god-like influence and faith? gawd I'm glad organized religion isn't part of my life....

Samus_aran115 wrote:I find it hard to believe that cristians actually believe in some of the things they say. sometimes I just think they try to start trouble....D&D?Satanic? Do they complain about 40k because it's spreading the emperor's god-like influence and faith? gawd I'm glad organized religion isn't part of my life....

They might IF 40K was any where near as popular as D&D was back in the 1980's.

You have to remember, you could find D&D stuff (rule books, modules, dice, accessories, etc.) EVERYWHERE, in all the major chain stores too!

GW stuff and wargaming in general hasn't even come close to approaching the place where D&D was (youch!) 30 years ago...

Samus_aran115 wrote:I find it hard to believe that cristians actually believe in some of the things they say. sometimes I just think they try to start trouble....D&D?Satanic? Do they complain about 40k because it's spreading the emperor's god-like influence and faith? gawd I'm glad organized religion isn't part of my life....

I think there was a group basically doing this discussed on dakkadakka aa year ago or so. Basically, some watchdog group that sees the Chaos/Daemon stuff and assumes it is immoral.

*Snort*
I like the comments Michael Stackpole makes about the alignment system having no relevance to Satanism. What this Pulling woman says about it is moronic; most of my group went for neutral/good in the good/evil stakes.

Remember it’s not about Christianity. Most Christians are perfectly nice and reasonable folks. Problems like this arise from intolerant and ignorant fundamentalists, no matter what religion or creed they follow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

Mannahnin wrote:Remember it’s not about Christianity. Most Christians are perfectly nice and reasonable folks. Problems like this arise from intolerant and ignorant fundamentalists, no matter what religion or creed they follow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

Fair enough, man. I know many Christians who play this sort of thing, even a few who prefer evil characters. It's just a shame when it gets blown out of proportion.

On the plus side, I'm dead sure that the panic helped it sell millions more copies in the 80s and make it the fad it was. Any game/hobby that comes across as dangerous or forbidden to kids is naturally more attractive.

Catholic who plays D&D here. And yes, I have had to deal with other Christians/Catholics being judgmental for "moral" reasons. I find that they are generally douches in other aspects of their lives, however, and can't pin this particular douchiness on religion. Concerning mainstream religions at least, the truth is that most people bring their baggage to religion rather than the religion sticking them with baggage. I assure you that nothing whatsoever in the teachings of Jesus Christ or the Catholic Church has anything at all to do with playing a game of D&D.

Manchu wrote:Catholic who plays D&D here. And yes, I have had to deal with other Christians/Catholics being judgmental for "moral" reasons. I find that they are generally douches in other aspects of their lives, however, and can't pin this particular douchiness on religion. Concerning mainstream religions at least, the truth is that most people bring their baggage to religion rather than the religion sticking them with baggage. I assure you that nothing whatsoever in the teachings of Jesus Christ or the Catholic Church has anything at all to do with playing a game of D&D.

I'm pretty sure Jesus was the best DM of all time, actually.
I jest! But seriously, I have to agree with you. It's a little too easy to label groups, despite the massive flaws in doing so.

In response to the question about the death of DnD, My opinion is that it is dying.

I for one got tired of the whole, "ew, new editions are coming out." So everyone would rush to get all the new books. Then as you start to get things together and you have all the books to play well, "Eww, a new edition is coming out.".
Sorry I am not a rich man that can spend hundreds of bucks every couple of years on new books.

I have been playing since the 2nd edition and I probably have 95% of all of the 2nd edition stuff. I saw no reason to rush out and buy new books every couple of years.
Sure each edition may have fixed issues with the one before but I felt like 2nd edition was like an old worn out T-shirt that I just could not seem to trash because it was so comfortable.

Anyway, all my friends that used to play had all moved away and I really had not found any reason to try to play anymore until my brother found a program called "Fantasy Grounds".
If you have not seen this it is pretty cool. It runs on the new rules and is totally online. It basically turns your PC into a tabletop. With the addition of ventrilo to this and we have had some really fun sessions with this.
We got most of our old players back and a few new ones as well. With Fantasy Grounds I have been dragged kicking and screaming into the new rules but so far am not disappointed.

Here give it a look see.

http://www.fantasygrounds.com/

So yes I think it is dying but I am also seeing it taken in new directions. I for one hope these new directions can help breath life back into the ole girl.

As far as Editions it is one of the slowest to get new ones.
It has been around since the mid-70s and it has only recently gotten to 4th.

Look at alot of other games that have come around including wargames.
Warhammer: 8th is coming around the corner
WH40k: there is already talk of a 6th.

Anpu42 wrote:As far as Editions it is one of the slowest to get new ones.
It has been around since the mid-70s and it has only recently gotten to 4th.

Look at alot of other games that have come around including wargames.
Warhammer: 8th is coming around the corner
WH40k: there is already talk of a 6th.

It is just as expensive as a hobby too.

Well I think we are talking about two different things, there's D&D the franchise, which is all the books and the profitability of WotC. This can probably be ascertained from their financial reports rather than anecdotes about who is playing. Perhaps the publishers of D&D will, one day, go under. Whether they do has almost no relation to whether or not friends will continue to get together to tell collaborative stories with a loose set of rules- this will never go away. All this talk of particular 'systems' killing D&D makes me laugh. I just ran a 1st edition module with a set of 4th edition characters. It really wasn't hard. They are stories, people. The rules are a framework- making a story with your friends is all that matters, and nothing a publisher does or does not do will ever change this.

Also +! on the guy who quoted CS Lewis. As I've grown older I've found that people really stop caring 'what you're into', and if they do make negative judgments I find I don't much care about them.

Anecdotally, D&D is bigger now than it's ever been. At comedy fest this year they had THREE shows dedicated to D&D- and that's for lay audiences (all of them sold out). I myself am in three different groups and am aware of at least four more in my circle of friends. I don't think it's going anywhere.

I got through runing the Village of Homlet [both the reworked 1st ed and the 4e] and it worked well. I am currently trying to make both the Temple of Elemental Evil and Ilse of Dread into 4th.

Hmm,my opinion on 4th is probably a reasonable one...

Look at what they're competing against: ONLINE GAMES!People are losing interest in physical, time-consuming affairs. Why play DnD when you can go play WoW? Seriously. It's a dwindling audience. There's a limit to how much people will pay to play a good game. Maybe if WotC stopped making every single book at least 30$,they might sell more!

I don't feel compelled to play beyond the Player's handbook, when the martial power book is 35$! Give me a break!

Anyway,game-wise,my opinion is "different,not better or worse" I like certain aspects of both 3.5 and 4th.
3.5th wasn't as combat oriented,more focus on skills and improving the personality and "guts" of your character. 4th, is obviously more combat oriented,less emphasis on personal qualities and skills.

I like combat, a lot! It makes games more exciting than doing the same exact thing every round. But I also like being able to personalize your character more. The lack of tose lost alignments is killing me! What if I want to be Lawful evil???

Samus_aran115 wrote:Hmm,my opinion on 4th is probably a reasonable one...

Look at what they're competing against: ONLINE GAMES!People are losing interest in physical, time-consuming affairs. Why play DnD when you can go play WoW? Seriously. It's a dwindling audience. There's a limit to how much people will pay to play a good game. Maybe if WotC stopped making every single book at least 30$,they might sell more!

I don't feel compelled to play beyond the Player's handbook, when the martial power book is 35$! Give me a break!

Anyway,game-wise,my opinion is "different,not better or worse" I like certain aspects of both 3.5 and 4th.
3.5th wasn't as combat oriented,more focus on skills and improving the personality and "guts" of your character. 4th, is obviously more combat oriented,less emphasis on personal qualities and skills.

I like combat, a lot! It makes games more exciting than doing the same exact thing every round. But I also like being able to personalize your character more. The lack of tose lost alignments is killing me! What if I want to be Lawful evil???

Dude, all you need to say is, "I don't feel like paying for two hobbies so I won't buy extra D&D books." Martial Power wasn't $35 btw, it was $30. The current trend with PnP RPG is ~$35-40 for the corer books and ~$30 for supplements, less for ones that aren't as large, such as the race supplements. If I want to build a decent character for a D&D 4E game I need the PHB, The supplement that goes with it and maybe another PHB (2 or 3) or One of the "loot books" (Adventurer's Vault 1 and 2). With all of these books Retailing at a maximum of ~$130, You are about $50 more than your 2 basic books for 40k, both of which are getting a price jump soon probably bringning it closer to only $40 or so over. But with those 4 books you have more than enough material to build quite a few characters and customize quite a bit. Where as you can't do anything wtih the $83.00 you just spent on the 40k rule book and <insert codex here> without shelling out another almost $400 for an army.

I'm sorry if I came off snarky, that wasn't my intention. My intention was to demonstrate for that that do not know, not saying you are one of them, that the TTRPG hoby is just as expensive as wargaming can be. Some games suggest miniatures, others don't. Adding figures to the cost brings it up quite a bit. Etc, Etc.

I spend maybe $90 a year on RPGs (not including my PDF purchases), none on MMOs anymore and ~$100 on WHFB and Hordes.


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Oh and if you want to play LE play Evil. They are the same thing. Remember how CN was the true evil for 3.5 (not truly evil but you could get away with everything and blame it on being a free spirit)? Unaligned is that now. Either UA or Evil work fine for it.

Samus_aran115 wrote: "different,not better or worse"

that is how I feel about the new rules and such.

As someone stated earlier the rule books are a guideline.

For this reason I have kept using 2nd ed. Yes it has problems but we have house rules that handle all the headaches.

I started playing RPG's when I was at university a few years ago. We very briefly played D&D just before 4th edition, but my group was more interested in D20 and Star Wars RPG (ew). But then I left university have have not played since.

I'd love to get back into it. Even found a gaming store that carries it and has games nights, but I've just not had the time/motivation to go down there and find out what is going on. Though I did post on their facebook group a while ago, I've still not got a reply (in over a month ).

I will go down there eventually though

Bravo c34r. It is also important to note the difference in the cost that you incur vs the MMO model. Unless you are playing on a lifetime membership (which is rarely offered with MMOs) you are paying at least 10 dollars a month, possibly as much as 15. That translates to 120 to 180 a year. I'd be hard pressed to find 120 dollars worth of RPG product to purchase for a single game over the course of a year as a GM (DM). As a new player, I can see the cost approaching 100 dollars if you really wanted to make a particular character, and somehow no one else in your group had the book you needed.

I remember that back when I started, I put down 10 bucks for a set of dice, borrowed a core book and rolled up a character. When he died, I realized I probably ought to know more of these 'rules' and got the PHB for 35 or 40 dollars. I don't recall purchasing an expansion or specialty book for over a year, and I still hadn't played all of the options from the core book.

To say that you need to put out 150 to start is just silly. The equivalent would be claiming that you need 500 dollars to start 40k, because that's what you need for a decent mechanized list at 1850. A highly specialized character is inappropriate for most beginners. Your new 40k players will happily beat each other up at 500 pts with AOBr for a few weeks, then start rapidly accruing paints, models, and expanding. They won't become competitive for years, in most cases. Any PnP RPG is going to have a similar learning curve, and a much slower purchase curve.

Shameless promotion follows this sentence.

Especially if that game is Hackmaster basic, which has a digital download of the complete rules and everything you need to GM or play for 15 dollars over at kenzerco.

Gitzbitah wrote: I'd be hard pressed to find 120 dollars worth of RPG product to purchase for a single game over the course of a year as a GM (DM).

i used to buy a d&d book every two months on average back in the 3.5 days before WOTC dumped me as a customer. that's not including the $200 or so i'd spend on d&d minis every 4 months when they'd come out with a new set (i've got a complete collection of the first 8ish sets). i was playing in one campaign and GM'ing in another and would pretty much buy any forgotten realms or core book they came out with. rabid palladium fans buy up anything the company comes out with for rifts and they're averaging a book every month or two (albeit at a lower price range). you might be hard pressed but other may not be. i've had my gaming purchases cut by 75% compared with 2 years ago just by virtue of WOTC discontinuing everything i've liked from them (3.5, DDM skirmish, Star Wars minis and RPG).

That sounds like more than 'one game' to me. As I recall, the minis were a separate game.

Were all of those supplements for the same setting? I know in the heyday of d20 you could buy a book every month, but for one campaign that number seems a bit excessive. I could be wrong, I didn't play 3.5 DnD.

It seems like your on the opposite end of the spectrum from where I am, warboss. Were you purchasing for one game, or collecting almost everything that came out from the company?

Gitzbitah wrote:That sounds like more than 'one game' to me. As I recall, the minis were a separate game.

Were all of those supplements for the same setting? I know in the heyday of d20 you could buy a book every month, but for one campaign that number seems a bit excessive. I could be wrong, I didn't play 3.5 DnD.

It seems like your on the opposite end of the spectrum from where I am, warboss. Were you purchasing for one game, or collecting almost everything that came out from the company?

considering i used the minis 3x every two weeks for the RPGs i was in and only 1-2x in the same period for the skirmish game, i'd say they were a part of the same game. all the PC minis except one were supplied by me and all the NPCs and monsters were from my collection during the games i ran. in the campaign i simply played in, i supplied more than half of the monsters and 2-3 PC minis on average. as for the books, wotc was coming out with 2-3 rpg books per month during most of the 3/3.5 time period. i generally bought the core books (like the "races of" series and the class books as well as MM1-4, DMG2, PHB2, etc) and pretty much all the forgotten realms books. i bought a single eberron book (the core book) but otherwise stayed away from other worlds as both campaigns i was involved with were in the FR. in essence, i was buying about a quarter or less (since i bought around 1 book every 2 months out of 4-6) of their D&D line. since they announced 4th ed (not since it came out but simply was announced), i've bought only a few minis from online singles dealers (as opposed to the complete sets or cases i used to buy) and only the 3 core books for 4th ed. i went from spending $600+ a year on D&D to less than $150 total in the past two years ($200 if you include my pathfinder book).

Well then! I stand corrected. You must have had some very fancy tables and battles!

Gitzbitah wrote:Well then! I stand corrected. You must have had some very fancy tables and battles!

lol, the minis were nice but we didn't use terrain other than what we drew on the play mat with wet erase markers. also, i didn't realize just how much i was actually spending on d&d back in the day until i tallied it up FOR YOU, lol. i figured it was more than $100 but not that much.

I can totally relate to that. My overspending came from the Star Wars CCG. I don't think I realized how much I spent until I looked down at the 3 or 4 cubic feet of cards I owned, and realize I had bought them at 3 dollars a pack, for 15 cards. To this day, I can't put a solid number on how much I spent. Or, for that matter, how I got the money for it during high school. I must have spent every spare dollar on those things. I still can't bring myself to buy randomly packaged items.

Gitzbitah wrote:I can totally relate to that. My overspending came from the Star Wars CCG. I don't think I realized how much I spent until I looked down at the 3 or 4 cubic feet of cards I owned, and realize I had bought them at 3 dollars a pack, for 15 cards. To this day, I can't put a solid number on how much I spent. Or, for that matter, how I got the money for it during high school. I must have spent every spare dollar on those things. I still can't bring myself to buy randomly packaged items.

Ha,it's even worse for me. I must have at least 5000 yugioh cards lying around. I have no freaking idea how I got so many..I've been playing for like 9 years though, so maybe that's why...But still,have no idea. If I bought packs,that would amount to at least 900 dollars,which I find unbelievable.

DnD is not dying, it is the same as it has always been, sure their is some nerd rage about the new edition (but with new things when isnt there?). A my flgs we have a few of the obvious internet trolls who are always ranting about how 3.5 is the best and they still play it and that 4edition is crap. These people are entitled to their opinion but as far as I can see since 4th edition the number of D&D players in my area has tripled and looks to be doing just fine to me.

Alpharius wrote:The hobbies that most of us have chosen are certainly 'misunderstood' at best.

I think we all knew, either at 'sign on' or shortly thereafter, that we were going to have to tolerate a certain amount of ridicule and/or scorn.

Happily, I don't think most of us care!

Pretty much. It comes with most tabletop battles/RPG games. Life's too short to let people hold you back from what you enjoy. On the 4th edition DnD. Its not my favorite but its certainly not unpopular. Whilst at same time I have friends who are pretty much boycotting it for their campaigns and using 3.5 due to personal preference. Whilst the rulebooks are available in even small branches of nationwide book retailers ( on several continents ) it would be hard to see any argument that the games dieing. As long as people play and enjoy any game it will live forever.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I find it hard to believe that cristians actually believe in some of the things they say. sometimes I just think they try to start trouble....D&D?Satanic? Do they complain about 40k because it's spreading the emperor's god-like influence and faith? gawd I'm glad organized religion isn't part of my life....

Yeah how about you not pigeon hole all Christians into a neat little stereotype that you yourself are accusing them of doing to others. Most like myself don't think DnD is satanic.

I have never played a game of DnD. Mostly because my dad would always say "Oh sure, lets play that Warhammer version, we have models for that" we bought the book, and we played for like an hour, and never again. I just don't have the people, and my FLGS is filled with wackos with really dumb rules.

However, having played DnD:Online, and reading Order of the Stick, I really want to play a game of it, and even had one of my book/game/comic/whatever ideas converted into a DnD style game format for a while.

Anyway, I don't know if it's dying, but I want to give it CPR if it is.

Careful, it isn't the hot Elf chick in a chain-mail bikini, it is probably closer to the hygienically challenged raving lunatic dwarf passed out in the corner of the Inn...

Alpharius wrote:Careful, it isn't the hot Elf chick in a chain-mail bikini, it is probably closer to the hygienically challenged raving lunatic dwarf passed out in the corner of the Inn...

Meh, if it needs savins, it needs savins.

Slarg232 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Careful, it isn't the hot Elf chick in a chain-mail bikini, it is probably closer to the hygienically challenged raving lunatic dwarf passed out in the corner of the Inn...

Meh, if it needs savins, it needs savins.

I applaud your altruism!

And grant you a 1000 xp bonus!

to get back to the original point of this thread (not that i mind talking about chainmail bikini women but the thread needs pics, not posts!).... apparently wotc announced a new line of D&D essentials products which will be fundamentally changing 4e. while wotc is quick to call it 4e Essentials and simply a new direction 100% compatible with 4e, plenty of fans are calling it 4.5 as the core rules are being changed as well as the class structure from this point on. apparently, they're trying to differentiate the classes more so that they don't all play so similarly and are possibly getting rid of daily powers in some of the class builds. they've also stated that all their new products will be in the "essentials" format from that point on. you'll still be able to play your 2008 PHB1 fighter but he won't look like any of the new NPCs.

warboss wrote:to get back to the original point of this thread (not that i mind talking about chainmail bikini women but the thread needs pics, not posts!).... apparently wotc announced a new line of D&D essentials products which will be fundamentally changing 4e. while wotc is quick to call it 4e Essentials and simply a new direction 100% compatible with 4e, plenty of fans are calling it 4.5 as the core rules are being changed as well as the class structure from this point on. apparently, they're trying to differentiate the classes more so that they don't all play so similarly and are possibly getting rid of daily powers in some of the class builds. they've also stated that all their new products will be in the "essentials" format from that point on. you'll still be able to play your 2008 PHB1 fighter but he won't look like any of the new NPCs.

That's pretty much the reason why I've gotten away from WotC rpg's in general. They spam out new edition after new edition so quickly,it's ridiculous. Their rpg books literally only have about a 2 year life cycle,anymore. The last WotC book I bought new was Star Wars Revised. Of course,you can always just play using the old books,but in any gaming group,you usually have half to 3/4 of the players that want to play the new edition. Plus,it's kind of a crappy thing to play an OOP game in your FLGS,as the main reason they have play areas is that it's advertising for the product they're trying to sell.

Money grab alert!

And:

^thank you *wips tears* you dont no how greatly this has restored my faith in humanity and dnd.

I've been playing since AD&D and 4th was by far the worst thing to happen to the game. It has become a tabletop mmo wargamethat is not as good as warhammer or as diverse as hordes, and is basically a dumbed down version of the game. Yep also the one thing the defenders of the fourth cannot deny is how bad it sucks that it is not open sourced like 3.0/3.5

happydude wrote:I've been playing since AD&D and 4th was by far the worst thing to happen to the game.

happydude wrote:It has become a tabletop mmo wargamethat

1. Dungeuns and Dragons started it's life as a rules for miniatures. Miniatures for fantasy gaming have been around longer than 4th Edition.

2. MMO's are just computer versions of D&D. Next you'll say that Starcraft totally ripped off 40k.

happydude wrote:is not as good as warhammer or as diverse as hordes, and is basically a dumbed down version of the game.

Compare apples and oranges often or is this just a one time thing?

Ahtman wrote:

happydude wrote:I've been playing since AD&D and 4th was by far the worst thing to happen to the game.

happydude wrote:It has become a tabletop mmo wargamethat

1. Dungeuns and Dragons started it's life as a rules for miniatures. Miniatures for fantasy gaming have been around longer than 4th Edition.

2. MMO's are just computer versions of D&D. Next you'll say that Starcraft totally ripped off 40k.

happydude wrote:is not as good as warhammer or as diverse as hordes, and is basically a dumbed down version of the game.

Compare apples and oranges often or is this just a one time thing?

Failed troll has failed

1. What it started as has nothing to do with the ROLEPLAYING game it became... moot point

2. MMO's are fast paced electronic versions of roleplaying games and are simplified and fast paced with little to no roleplaying (unless on a RP server)


Apples to oranges? Lol nice try

D&D Is about diversity and a plethora of options and opportunities and to build them up so high(3.5) just to knowck them back down(4th) is a waste of time unless you are looking at this from their point of view and considering the economics behind marketing to a wider array of gamers by dumbing it down. Gary Gygax is rolling in his grave (no pun intended)

happydude wrote:
Failed troll has failed

Really? That is the best you can muster? You, the one who roles in acting like your opinion is fact and that your own personal biases and experiences are somehow universal? I'm sorry you can't have fun with 4th, but I know many more that do. Many of whom play both 4th and 3.5. It is possible to enjoy both; this really isn't an either/or situation. The fact that fourth is doing well isn't exactly a good sign that the game is as awful as you state. Just because something isn't to your tastes doesn't make it bad, it just means it isn't to your tastes. And if you can't understand why comparing a tabletop RPG to a Miniatures wargame isn't a fair comparison, or understand the history of gaming and how it has evolved, well there really isn't much I can do to help you.

Ahtman wrote:

happydude wrote:
Failed troll has failed

Really? That is the best you can muster? You, the one who rolls in acting like your opinion is fact and that your own personal biases and experiences are somehow universal? I'm sorry you can't have fun with 4th, but I know many more that do. Many of whom play both 4th and 3.5. It is possible to enjoy both, this really isn't an either or situation. The fact that fourth is doing well isn't exactly a good sign that the game is as awful as you state. Just because something isn't to your tastes doesn't make it bad, it just means it isn't to your tastes. And if you can't understand why comparing a tabletop RPG to a Miniatures wargame isn't a fair comparison or understand the history of gaming, well there really isn't much I can do to help you.

Again failed troll has failed

I state what it is, which is a dumbed down version of 3.5

I am glad people you know enjoy 4th, this keeps WotC in business

4th has a new fanbase and about 35-40% of the older players attempting it, however no one i know who has played from AD&D on enjoys it

A tabletop rpg in comparison to a mini's wargame?? It is a perfect comparison because that is what 4th edition has become in its entirety!

You may enjoy it and others will as well but you cannot fight the fact that it is simply D&D basic all over again. Defend it all you will, but it is what it is.

It is not the worst thing out there, far from it. But when comparing the two there is no comparison. Some of us enjoy complexity while others enjoy simplicity.

If you're a casual here and there gamer then sure 4th is for you and more power to you

But for those of us who have enjoyed this game from way back when it is not our cup of tea and to us it indeed is D&D For Dummies.

May you prevail on your quest for 4th edition virtue though, something tells me you would make a grand paladin!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway I must retire for the night and that will prevent this from getting out of hand anyway. Play what you choose to play, no one is telling you not to. Take care Grand Paladin of 4th!

See I told you you were hopeless. I shouldn't respond more as there really isn't much point in arguing with a brick wall. You have made up your mind and you have confused your opinions to be more that that. You have converted your personal experiences into universal ones and take them as some sort of gospel. For instance you say you know no one that played from AD&D on that enjoys except you are talking to someone who played First Edition on and enjoys it. I know other people that counter your point as well.

I have spoken with Gary Gygax on two seperate occasions and have shared a room with Dave Arneson at a con and I can tell you that your belief that either would be spinning in thier grave is a as far from the truth as one could be. Mr. Gygax would happy to see the hobby continuing on and all the new people that are coming into it.

Ahtman wrote:See I told you you were hopeless. I shouldn't respond more as there really isn't much point in arguing with a brick wall. You have made up your mind and you have confused your opinions to be more that that. You have converted your personal experiences into universal ones and take them as some sort of gospel. For instance you say you know no one that played from AD&D on that enjoys except you are talking to someone who played First Edition on and enjoys it. I know other people that counter your point as well.

I have spoken with Gary Gygax on two seperate occasions and have shared a room with Dave Arneson at a con and I can tell you that your belief that either would be spinning in thier grave is a as far from the truth as one could be. Mr. Gygax would happy to see the hobby continuing on and all the new people that are coming into it.

OMG THE KING OF ALL GEEKS TALKED TO GARY GYGAX!!!!

I'm sorry do you as well speak for all D&D players? You are speaking the same way and fail to realize that.

Buddy listen to my words because you are obviously dense

No one I KNOW

Do I know you? Do I know the rest of your "people"

No

I said PEOPLE I KNOW

Gary OBVIOUSLY wouldn't say anything against it at the time because HIS WALLET WAS LINED WITH THEIR GOLD

sheesh... and I'M the dense one?

FAILED TROLL HAS FAILED... Yet again... It's ok though I still love you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

happydude wrote:

Ahtman wrote:See I told you you were hopeless. I shouldn't respond more as there really isn't much point in arguing with a brick wall. You have made up your mind and you have confused your opinions to be more that that. You have converted your personal experiences into universal ones and take them as some sort of gospel. For instance you say you know no one that played from AD&D on that enjoys except you are talking to someone who played First Edition on and enjoys it. I know other people that counter your point as well.

I have spoken with Gary Gygax on two seperate occasions and have shared a room with Dave Arneson at a con and I can tell you that your belief that either would be spinning in thier grave is a as far from the truth as one could be. Mr. Gygax would happy to see the hobby continuing on and all the new people that are coming into it.

OMG THE KING OF ALL GEEKS TALKED TO GARY GYGAX!!!!

I'm sorry do you as well speak for all D&D players? You are speaking the same way and fail to realize that.

Buddy listen to my words because you are obviously dense

No one I KNOW

Do I know you? Do I know the rest of your "people"

No

I said PEOPLE I KNOW

Gary OBVIOUSLY wouldn't say anything against it at the time because HIS WALLET WAS LINED WITH THEIR GOLD

sheesh... and I'M the dense one?

FAILED TROLL HAS FAILED... Yet again... It's ok though I still love you

also...LMFAO at the quote you display and then rag on me for a strong opinion LMFAO LMFAO LMFAO... ahem... but I still love you just the same *pats head*


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway lets stop this sh*t before we get banned. So I'll agree to disagree. Sound fair? *hugs pally*

begun... the edition wars have.

As I stated earller, How old is D&D and it is only on 4th. I think that is a prety record.

..a few posts back there was a suggestion about people stopping calling each other names and bickering in a thoroughly pointless manner. That's good advice. Really.

You might not like the current edition -- and it certainly has its critics -- but it appears to be selling well enough that it's still the top selling RPG in the UK and NA for..hmm.. pretty much since it came out.Every quarter. They're doing something right.

reds8n wrote:..a few posts back there was a suggestion about people stopping calling each other names and bickering in a thoroughly pointless manner. That's good advice. Really.

You might not like the current edition -- and it certainly has its critics -- but it appears to be selling well enough that it's still the top selling RPG in the UK and NA for..hmm.. pretty much since it came out.Every quarter. They're doing something right.

Just like the iPhone

Anpu42 wrote:As I stated earller, How old is D&D and it is only on 4th. I think that is a prety record.

Well,not really. There were a total of of 5 different editions of D&D and 3 different editions of AD&D before WotC bought out TSR in 2000 and released D&D 3.0,3.5,and 4.0,with 4.5 in the pipe,now. The first game was D&D,and then they started releasing D&D as a simplified game on it's own alongside AD&D. So,11 editions in 36 years of existance basically means a new edition every 3 1/2 years.

Alpharius wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Careful, it isn't the hot Elf chick in a chain-mail bikini, it is probably closer to the hygienically challenged raving lunatic dwarf passed out in the corner of the Inn...

Meh, if it needs savins, it needs savins.

I applaud your altruism!

And grant you a 1000 xp bonus!

SWEET! Besides, you know what they say about Dwarves, save them once and they owe you a debt of gratitude. That bikini elf will only make me burn with desire for one night.... and after that probably just make me burn

Alpharius wrote:Money grab alert!

And:

What does it say about me that I think the first one is hotter?

It says that you are an intelligent, discerning individual with good taste!

(And yes, I agree with you!)

I only included the 2nd pic as it was the stereotypical 'chain-mail bikini' girl.

RPGs are what you make them. I cringed when I looked over the 4th edition rules, but when I ran a group of six through a campaign (two of whom were new to roleplaying and two more being new to D&D but had played Shadowrun, etc.) it went fine.

It's not what it used to be and never will be again, but roleplaying won't die. D&D is so much more than a brand name that belongs to whoever could pay the most for it. It's an experience that changes based on who you're playing it with, and that's so much more than the rules used to hold it together. Suspension of disbelief is the main challenge DMs have to tackle, and if you can do it, the metagame barely matters.

Besides, I still have my 1st edition source books if I want to go back to them. Some people have retro Playboy rags... but you can't get a Gygax nerdgasm anywhere else.

Edit: I might note that I've observed my style of DMing is quite different to most of the people I've played 'under'. I provide maps and other such flavour material but try to de-emphasize the focus on miniatures. In my most recent campaign, and due to the fact that 4th edition rules were being used, this was almost impossible and that's the main problem I have with it.

Next you'll say that Starcraft totally ripped off 40k.

Warcraft was going to originally be a game based off Warhammer Fantasy and Starcraft was originally going to be a game based off of Warhammer 40k.

G-W was on board for a little bit then decided to be dicks.

O-T:

*side note* I agree that pic number 1 is hotter, because we all know that a chick with daggers and a bow can easily steal your heat (damn rogues).

I hardly think that D&D is dying because every Gaming Store I go to sells the books, and has people playing it on the weekends, and I actually take part of a 4e game as said Dwarf in the corner, I just happen to be a Cleric/Fighter, so keep yer mouth to your self.

Cambak wrote:

Next you'll say that Starcraft totally ripped off 40k.

Warcraft was going to originally be a game based off Warhammer Fantasy and Starcraft was originally going to be a game based off of Warhammer 40k.

G-W was on board for a little bit then decided to be dicks.

O-T:

*side note* I agree that pic number 1 is hotter, because we all know that a chick with daggers and a bow can easily steal your heat (damn rogues).

I hardly think that D&D is dying because every Gaming Store I go to sells the books, and has people playing it on the weekends, and I actually take part of a 4e game as said Dwarf in the corner, I just happen to be a Cleric/Fighter, so keep yer mouth to your self.

No need to be rude. I was just asking what other people thought about it.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Cambak wrote:

Next you'll say that Starcraft totally ripped off 40k.

Warcraft was going to originally be a game based off Warhammer Fantasy and Starcraft was originally going to be a game based off of Warhammer 40k.

G-W was on board for a little bit then decided to be dicks.

O-T:

*side note* I agree that pic number 1 is hotter, because we all know that a chick with daggers and a bow can easily steal your heat (damn rogues).

I hardly think that D&D is dying because every Gaming Store I go to sells the books, and has people playing it on the weekends, and I actually take part of a 4e game as said Dwarf in the corner, I just happen to be a Cleric/Fighter, so keep yer mouth to your self.

No need to be rude. I was just asking what other people thought about it.

I am deeply sorry if you thought I was being rude, I was not trying to be (damn internet). I was merely giving a statement and I once again apologize if I came across rude.

I forgive you

Cambak wrote:I am deeply sorry if you thought I was being rude, I was not trying to be (damn internet). I was merely giving a statement and I once again apologize if I came across rude.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I forgive you

sniff... sniff... dakka group hug!

Nice. That's officially saved.

3.5 survives..... no...
3.5 THRIVES!

PATHFINDER FOR LIFE!

I think the only reason 3.5 is still alive is because you can find all the supplements you need on the internet.

Without the internet, people would never bother with it. :3

Pffft. I started playing Basic D&D, then Expert, then Advanced, then 2nd Ed.
As far as subsequent versions go....

I'll keep my money, and any DM who can't make the game work with the books he has, isn't really up to the Job.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I think the only reason 3.5 is still alive is because you can find all the supplements you need on the internet.

Without the internet, people would never bother with it. :3

There's a lot of truth to that statement. AD&D died a comparatively abrupt death. Of course, Paizo and the bankruptcy of TSR are the rest of the story.

I like the Pathfinder system alot more then I like 3.5, especially since they took Pixies out of Pathfinder.

As for 4.0, its different. Its more combat oriented but there can be quite a bit of roleplaying in it to. I have to say, it and its published encounters are well written.

I remain a fan of the 'old school' approach, and as noted, there is PLENTY of opportunity for actual ROLE PLAYING where ever you find yourself playing - provided the DM and players are up for it!

I do worry about the long term viability and health of the "Old School Revival" - is it limited in lifespan to match that of it's youngest members?

I started with D&D and then AD&D back in 1980!

Will it all come to an end it about 10 to 20 years, forever?

Roleplaying will continue as long as people love to tell stories together. D&D might not last that long. It doesn't seem too terrible a thought to me.

Lately I find myself jumping form system to system depending on what my group wants. Some nights its D&D 4.0, some nights its pathfinder, or call of cthulhu, the dresdin files, serenity... There are a ton of systems out there, and all of them can be fun.

One of the things I really like about 4.0 is the simplified skills. A lot of people complained about this when 4 came out, but after playing with the 4.0 skills, it's actually much easier to use and train. I mean really? Jump skill? The only time I bothered to train that was a silly themed battle where I was a jester.

No one ever puts points into jump, but when they need to make a significatn jump they always whine about not haveing it.

Catyrpelius wrote:No one ever puts points into jump, but when they need to make a significatn jump they always whine about not haveing it.

Which is funny, because once I had to take multiple jump tests while hopping over buildings, and ultimately ended up walking

If the group I'm DM'ing for pisses me off to much, I tend to make them roll stills they havent put anything in to. Speeking of which, my group has been short on people lately, anyone in my area looking for a new rpg group?

Jersey, eh?

How's your febreeze stock?

Lmao, it doesnt sound like I really want to know....

A joke on new jersey being so smelly I kid,I kid. I've got family in jersey. Hoboken, actually. Apparently, that's where all the broke people from queens go

I have like, 15+ of 3.5 books.

I never found a group to play with...

Samus_aran115 wrote:A joke on new jersey being so smelly I kid,I kid. I've got family in jersey. Hoboken, actually. Apparently, that's where all the broke people from queens go

I'm from Northwestern NJ, if your from out of the area, and someone dropped you off here and didnt tell you where you were, it would be nothing like what you think is NJ.

But then again, I went to school in Newark and that whole area is much more "NJ like"

Catyrpelius wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:A joke on new jersey being so smelly I kid,I kid. I've got family in jersey. Hoboken, actually. Apparently, that's where all the broke people from queens go

I'm from Northwestern NJ, if your from out of the area, and someone dropped you off here and didnt tell you where you were, it would be nothing like what you think is NJ.

But then again, I went to school in Newark and that whole area is much more "NJ like"

Take the amtrak up and down the east coast, you'll notice it all looks the same! I swear, Delaware isn't really what I thought delaware was. The east coast can look like kansas if you squint enough to blur out the pizza joints and hybrid cars

well if your ever up this way and looking for a game of something let me know

Kay. I go up that way every couple of months.

Alpharius wrote:I remain a fan of the 'old school' approach, and as noted, there is PLENTY of opportunity for actual ROLE PLAYING where ever you find yourself playing - provided the DM and players are up for it!

I do worry about the long term viability and health of the "Old School Revival" - is it limited in lifespan to match that of it's youngest members?

I started with D&D and then AD&D back in 1980!

Will it all come to an end it about 10 to 20 years, forever?

Well, depending on who you talk to, EVERYTHING will be coming to an end in two. No worries

ie: People who've heard of the Mayan calendar but don't know anything about it. Personally, I think we get Shadowrun.

Back to the topic, I'm enjoying playing and running 4E, but I could absolutely see myself playing 3.5 or PF again. They're more Simulationist, where 4E is more abstract and Gamist.

BTW, everyone knows in 3.5 you put 1 rank in Jump so you can land on your feet when you jump. Powergamers all know, anyway. :lol:

Mannahnin wrote:BTW, everyone knows in 3.5 you put 1 rank in Jump so you can land on your feet when you jump. Powergamers all know, anyway. :lol:

Whaaaaa?

I played a lot of 3.5 and this never occurred to me, but now looking over my PHB and DMG... Man.

I still have all of my 3.5 books and don't plan on buying 4E. Ever. Not really for hipster reasons, I just feel like I'd rather spend my "nerd money" on GW stuff.

And how dare they make mezzoloths into demons! My precious Yugoloths have been retconned! Oh Planescape, how I miss you.

You know folks, over here in the UK there's still quite a large tabletop crowd, it can be annoying circumnavigating the reams of internet forums and crappy websites to find places near you but I know a good number of pubs and clubs where people get together for a laugh.

Not to mention a lot of my friends play 3.5 at home, which is something I plan to pick up on again when I have some more money and time.

WotC seem to have forgotten us over here, though, and the better hobby shop near where I live closed down 4 years ago. Now all I have are as many Games Workshop retailers as it's possible to fit and almost nothing else. Amazon has never been so handy.

A good deal of my more "mainstream" friends have no stigma or bad stereotypes of DnD, and it seems like with enough push, they could be convinced to play. I fondly remember the last day of school when I brought a home-made arena fighting RPG and played with a few friends using erasers and pencil sharpeners to represent our characters.
We also had a lot of fun chasing each other around with plastic weapons in the house.
The nerd culture is definitely thriving, and I doubt D&D will go anywhere, unless Wizards seriously messes it up.

Mannahnin wrote:ie: People who've heard of the Mayan calendar but don't know anything about it. Personally, I think we get Shadowrun.

Back to the topic, I'm enjoying playing and running 4E, but I could absolutely see myself playing 3.5 or PF again. They're more Simulationist, where 4E is more abstract and Gamist.

BTW, everyone knows in 3.5 you put 1 rank in Jump so you can land on your feet when you jump. Powergamers all know, anyway. :lol:

Win! I have had a running commentary in my mind for years where I check off various points in the Shadowrun history versus real life to see how we are stacking up. Although I regret spending my Xmas in 2012 in a internment camp, it'll be okay when I bust out and take over the weather.


On the 4E vs 3.5E thing, I loved 3.5E. It was broken as all crap after a while, but that made it fun. I remember having a Bard/Paladin/Sublime Chord/Something Else that wore plate, could cast max level wizard, bard and a bunch of paladin spells while charging the crap out of you. You just can't powergame in any system like you could in 3.5E.

Now 4E is a great deal of fun and has really simplified things. Although now that new books are coming out fast and furious, the creep has started. I don't think it will get as bad as 3.5, but the nature of the game is More books = more loopholes.

More importantly in 4E, they errata and FAQ like crazy and consider their system to be a living creature. This has done more for the new game than anything else. They now use the community to keep an eye on 'broken' (both brokensadface and OMGbroken) and fix them in post.

Cheers to WOTC

Is this a joke? I know this thread has been around for a little bit now though. This question is always asked and the answer is always no. D&D will never die out as long as people have an imagination.

That being said I don't like 4E. Too simple. Pretre had it right with 3.5 being broken as hell but that was fun! It challenged me to build and explore the rule set to get the most out of my character. I just don't feel that with 4E.

If you dont like simple, your should try playing the Dresdin Files. The only game I've ever played where your first and maybe your second session will be spent makeing your character.

Grimpost wrote:Is this a joke? I know this thread has been around for a little bit now though. This question is always asked and the answer is always no. D&D will never die out as long as people have an imagination.

That being said I don't like 4E. Too simple. Pretre had it right with 3.5 being broken as hell but that was fun! It challenged me to build and explore the rule set to get the most out of my character. I just don't feel that with 4E.

I encourage you to give it a second shot (4E). I felt that it was really simple to start with, but I am finding additional nuances that I missed when I started it. That and the addition of new books makes it start to expand into the 3.5 realm of 'Any rule you could possibly want'.

Really, 4E is about taking out the boring BS and annoying stuff that slowed games down and getting to the good stuff. It's streamlined without being dumbed down. If you ever want to see how complex 4E can get, take a stroll over to the Char Opt boards on Wizards' site. Those guys are freaking crazy.

I've wandered though the boards to see what the hot builds were. I have a friend that lives on the opt boards and regales interesting builds. The building of a character is okay, not exactly what I am looking for, and once the character is completed you only end up using 1-2 attacks and on occasion your encounter/daily. Comparing a wizard from 3.5 to 4th just seems sad. Not saying 4th doesn't have a place in the industry, just not for me.

I just don't enjoy it.

Now I do like me some Dresden so I will take a looksee at the game, thanks Catytpelius.

We quit with the new Edition, its pretty pointless now.


Pathfinder is better now, i wont be buying a dnd book ever again..

We quit with the new Pathfinder, its pretty pointless now.


4E is better now, I wont be buying a Paizo book ever again..

I played a game of pathfinder on free RPG day...It was like, meh. The artwork was what turned me off. I've always had a soft spot for D&D artwork/.

Dungeons & Dragons is dying because the High lords of Terra deemed it a heretical activity! And anyone found playing it will have the Space Marines (thats me) Commit Exterminatis on Their home world!

yes dungeons and dragons is not dying its dead


Automatically Appended Next Post:
very dead

Highlords of terra, "Chapter master Arkayne! Go Commit Exterminatus on those guys for playing DnD"

Arkayne, "Hell YEAH!!!!"


BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM

It all comes down to what you like. I guess I enjoy a system that still lives and breathes, new expansions, etc.

I have practically every 3.5 book put out by Wizards for core rules, but I like new stuff and after a while 3.5 got stale. So now I have 4E and new stuff comes out all the time.

Add to that the fact that with my limited gaming expenditures, I can just pay $15.00/month for my gaming group and get access to everything they put out about a month later through the Char Builder / Resource Tools and I'm a happy gamer.

If 4E isn't your cup of tea, so be it. Play Pathfinder or whatever, no hard feelings.

D&D isn't dying though. I'm fairly sure that WOTC is doing fine; there are always new geeks hitting middle school with a thirst for adventure.

Dark Sun might get me to buy 4E though.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I played a game of pathfinder on free RPG day...It was like, meh. The artwork was what turned me off. I've always had a soft spot for D&D artwork/.

What art is that?

Because THE art from me and D&D goes back a ways - the true masters of the art were busy from the late 70's to maybe the late 80's - which is, I'm guessing, before you were born!

Alpharius wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I played a game of pathfinder on free RPG day...It was like, meh. The artwork was what turned me off. I've always had a soft spot for D&D artwork/.

What art is that?

Because THE art from me and D&D goes back a ways - the true masters of the art were busy from the late 70's to maybe the late 80's - which is, I'm guessing, before you were born!

hell yeah! nothing says "i'm a barbarian coming from the frozen primitive wastelands" like a painting of a barbarian in a furry bikini with a girl with fluffy feathered hair and too much eyeshadow/blush at his feet!

Counterpoint- What sort of namby pamby barbarian brings a woman with him? They're all about living off the land, and taking the women of their victims as they carve a swath of destruction out of civilization.

What if your enemies' women are ugly?

Like you were invading New Jersey or something?

Whats wrong with a female barbarian?

All, my characters tend to be female.

Catyrpelius wrote:Whats wrong with a female barbarian?

All, my characters tend to be female.

We accept you. Just be who you are, man.

Pssh I think your just jealous that my female Barbarian looks better in a mini skirt and high heals then your male Barbarian does.

While we're on the subject of gender equality, why can't your female barbarian also rape and pillage women, townsfolk, and the occasional unwary sheep with the rest of them?

Now if your enemy's women are ugly, you have three options-

A. Apply the bag of holding to the head

B. Enslave them to keep the rest of your harem/entourage from having to ruin their figure with manual labor. Nothing ruins a good unwary sheep faster than having to go out and graze. Have your Jersey girls bring it vegetables and fruit.

C. Both.

The correct sequence of events is Rape, Pillage, Then Burn it To the Ground!

Yikes!

So, D&D is dead then?

Alpharius wrote:Yikes!

So, D&D is dead then?

Indeed. Would you help me take it to the Cleric to be raised, stranger?

Monster Rain wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Yikes!

So, D&D is dead then?

Indeed. Would you help me take it to the Cleric to be raised, stranger?

what is this i hear? a QUEST???!?!! sign me up. perhaps we can meet others interested in doing so for no particular reason at the inn.

warboss wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Yikes!

So, D&D is dead then?

Indeed. Would you help me take it to the Cleric to be raised, stranger?

what is this i hear? a QUEST???!?!! sign me up. perhaps we can meet others interested in doing so for no particular reason at the inn.

If only there was a way for a person to tell a story that allows others to interact much like characters in a play. I wonder...

Ok, everyone make a perception check.

Catyrpelius wrote:The correct sequence of events is Rape, Pillage, Then Burn it To the Ground!

You know, in a sequence of events none of those actions seem particularly noteworthy. You kind of shrug it off as though it were a viking bad habit (aww, he's raping and pillaging again).

The trouble is, if I said I was going to rape someone, that's pretty serious. What does pillaging and burning add to the affair that could possibly cover such horrific actions? Mind you, I prefer to rape, pillage and burn simultaneously, but even the other vikings tend to call me a fetishist.

Alpharius wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:I played a game of pathfinder on free RPG day...It was like, meh. The artwork was what turned me off. I've always had a soft spot for D&D artwork/.

What art is that?

Because THE art from me and D&D goes back a ways - the true masters of the art were busy from the late 70's to maybe the late 80's - which is, I'm guessing, before you were born!

The older editions artist were very neat to their styles, I happen to like some of Brom's works, the style was interesting ( Dark sun was such a good idea imo ). Now the new books art...I can find some of the new art to be rather good and so on. Then their is some pieces of art ether in the books or the covers that is just strange. The art is not completely horrible but a good amount of the ones that I tend to dislike don't use colour theory if they do it's not always where it needs to be. But as with all things there are a good amount that are good and I enjoy. I just wish the ones with the "use darker/lighter tone/shade for lighting/shading etc " would change it. If it's a blue fire, the cool and cold tones/shades would be used. Again this is all a matter of style I guess.

As far as if D&D is dead or dying? I guess it depends, Which this seems to be already stated but I have noticed there is a very large portion that happen to play the 4th edition( The realms like Dark Sun seem to be a hit around where I've been anyways.) I still happen to know many friends and people alike to play 2nd and 3.5 editions as well.

Also, this thread brings this to mind I hope this hasn't been posted here ( I don't recall seeing it lately or in the search at least with what I typed but anyways could be wrong.)
D&D meet This person's D&D Room. http://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8714

Edit: Spelling.

I would have to say No!
Our Sunday Shadowrun Game is now the Sunday D&D Game.

RatherFatRat wrote:

4.0 has also pissed off quite a bit of 'regulars' with the massive changes made to the system and thats cut down a lot of people, but there will always be another generation that had been 'introduced' into DnD with the latest version. People will adjust, get used to it and enjoy it. This all had happened with 1.0, 2.0, 3.0/3.5 and etc. Its a repeating process as the system is changed.

i think this is a very good point. 4.0 got me out of the game, thou i do play 3.5 sometimes. i noticed a lot of the younger kids i started to get to play when i was younger also were turned off by 4.0. i don't know where this new generation is that will uphold DnD, but im sure it will start to grow. i mean look at MTG. i thought me and my friends were the newest generation of magic card players due to our relatively young age and how olderplayers viewed us, till i stepped into a store of MTG gamers and saw even younger kids playing with new decks and concepts that i had never heard of. it moves on, thou i feel like the current group doesnt always notice the newer groups.


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also i think due to 4.0 many people are moving towards other RPG. my gaming group moved on to Paranoia. which is an amazing game im sure this happens elsewhere

Sageheart wrote:

RatherFatRat wrote:

4.0 has also pissed off quite a bit of 'regulars' with the massive changes made to the system and thats cut down a lot of people, but there will always be another generation that had been 'introduced' into DnD with the latest version. People will adjust, get used to it and enjoy it. This all had happened with 1.0, 2.0, 3.0/3.5 and etc. Its a repeating process as the system is changed.

i think this is a very good point. 4.0 got me out of the game, thou i do play 3.5 sometimes. i noticed a lot of the younger kids i started to get to play when i was younger also were turned off by 4.0. i don't know where this new generation is that will uphold DnD, but im sure it will start to grow. i mean look at MTG. i thought me and my friends were the newest generation of magic card players due to our relatively young age and how olderplayers viewed us, till i stepped into a store of MTG gamers and saw even younger kids playing with new decks and concepts that i had never heard of. it moves on, thou i feel like the current group doesnt always notice the newer groups.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also i think due to 4.0 many people are moving towards other RPG. my gaming group moved on to Paranoia. which is an amazing game im sure this happens elsewhere

I believe you may have something with your last point there, As far as moving on to other systems. After playing a large amount of D&D in two different states the good portion of people I played with looked around a bit more once 4th edition came out. Now I do play and know of large portion of people that play 4th and older editions as well but as you said other games have been looked into, Around where I've been Cthulhu Tech very popular(aside that DH/RT is extremely popular as well )

Call of Cthulhu is better then Cthulhu Tech in my opinon, but then I'm not a fan of the whole D20 System system.

Paranoia is a solid game, when you can find the rules for it. Its a game that demands a very creative GM though.

4th edition D&D is a godsend for DM, no longer do I need a crate of books to run a campaign.

Ahtman!

Are you over on Dragonsfoot too?

PA is so good when it's talking about stuff I care about (not video games).

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18222.html

Wizards of the Coast will release seven new Dungeons & Dragons products during the fourth quarter of this year, including two new Player Essentials books, a book devoted to humans, a book of monsters, two new Dungeon Tiles sets, and the new Dungeon Master’s Kit.



Three titles are scheduled to release in October:


Player Essentials: Heroes of the Fallen Lands offers new character options and guidelines for the iconic classes of the game: cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard, including powers, paragon paths, and epic destinies. New options for popular races are also included. 352 pages. Suggested retail price: $19.95.


Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The City provides Dungeon Masters with special map board tiles that are perfect for staging urban encounters. Includes 10 double-sided terrain tiles. Suggested retail price: $19.95.

The Dungeon Master’s Kit is a deluxe boxed set full of rules and advice for Dungeon Masters. It includes a 256-page rulebook, a DM screen with handy tables, die-cut terrain tiles and monster tokens, fold out battle maps, and two 32-page adventures. Suggested retail price: $39.99.

Two products are scheduled to release in November:

Monster Vault is a boxed Dungeon Master tool featuring a 256-page book of monsters, a 32-page adventure, and 10 sheets of die-cut monster tokens. Each monster entry includes game statistics and story information. Suggested retail price: $29.99.


Player Essentials: Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms presents new character options for druids, rangers, paladins, and warlocks, as well as new race options for many of the player character races in the game. Includes new powers, paragon paths, and epic destinies. 352 pages. Suggested retail price $19.95.



December will see the release of two new titles:


Player’s Handbook Races: Humans expands the core rulebook by focusing on Human characters, offering new role-playing options, feats, powers, paragon paths, and epic destinies. 32 pages. Suggested retail price: $9.95.



Dungeon Tiles Master Set: The Wilderness includes 10 double-sided terrain tiles featuring common wilderness and outdoor settings. Suggested retail price: $19.95.

and also...

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/18225.html

In November, Wizards of the Coast intends to release a new boardgame set in the world of Dungeons & Dragons. The game will be titled Wrath of Ashardalon, and was designed by Bill Slavicsek, Mike Mearls, and Peter Lee.



Like WotC’s earlier board game Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon is a cooperative game that pits one to five players against the game itself. Wrath is set in a subterranean maze populated with terrible monsters and a powerful red dragon. There are multiple scenarios, allowing players to face a variety of challenges.



The boxed game will include 42 plastic hero and monster miniatures, 13 sheets of interlocking geomorphic dungeon tiles, 200 cards, a 20-sided die, and a scenario book.



The suggested retail price will be $64.99.

So..overall..the continuing releases would suggest the game is in fairly rude health eh ?!

I miss D and D with my buddies but everyone quit or moved onto other systems

I must be lucky then, my FLGS has quite a healthy RPG scene. Pretty much every night, except for Wednesday there is someone running a Campaign in one system or another. I think we are up to 3 groups running 4.0 on fridays.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/redbox.aspx

..they wouldn't.... would they ?

reds8n wrote:
Like WotC’s earlier board game Castle Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon is a cooperative game that pits one to five players against the game itself. Wrath is set in a subterranean maze populated with terrible monsters and a powerful red dragon. There are multiple scenarios, allowing players to face a variety of challenges.

The boxed game will include 42 plastic hero and monster miniatures, 13 sheets of interlocking geomorphic dungeon tiles, 200 cards, a 20-sided die, and a scenario book.

The suggested retail price will be $64.99.

So..overall..the continuing releases would suggest the game is in fairly rude health eh ?!

Pics and thoughts as and when please ! ta.

Further to my earlier post...

Ravenloft came out, around here anyway, on Aug 31st. We have played 4 games as a group in that week. 2 of those back to back on Labour day. That is myself, my wife a 12 year old and an 8 year old.

I've actually played 5 times as I played the first solo mission to get the hang of the rules before showing the rest of the family how to play. The whole game is playable by one person, though they would need to use more than 1 hero to live.

Gameplay is very easy; 3 phases, hero - move and attack. exploration - open up new tiles, have encounters and villain - the monsters go. Once you run through it a time or two, it gets pretty smooth.

Check this unboxing vid if you haven't seen the contents it does better justice in pictures than I could describe except I'll say I am quite happy with the quality of the parts. (and the quantity for that matter) The only disagreement I'd have is the video guy calls the miniatures 'high quality' Not wrong but not right if you catch my drift, details good, little soft but compared to wargames minis they are a little below what I am used to; and I'll have to paint them as I am weird like that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNwZz_RmPGk

Playing is easy, all the stats are on the hero cards, and you get daily powers etc just like 4th ed. A single 20 sided die is all that is required.

When you get to an unexplored edge you pull a map tile and place it according to some easy rules; basically a little triangle that aims at you. Place a monster you draw from a deck and possibly an encounter card.

Each player is responsible for the monsters they place, each time you draw a card you keep it near you and in the villain phase of your turn you activate each monster in order. The card has all monster's stats needed. The Monster AI is simple, if it is adjacent a hero attack with sword, if within x number of tiles, attack with fireball, otherwise move closer to nearest hero. That kind of stuff; Even still we've had people near death in the games we've played, needing healing surges and help from the cleric.

Winning is based on the adventure; before the game you need to pick out some special tiles and sometimes a treasure marker etc. also a few small paragraphs to read in DM style to setup the reason for the party's involvement. Meet the requirements laid out in the book and the party wins, someone dies the party loses. The book has 13 I think and two more are online in PDF. I think I can make some of my own if need be. As the dungeon and monster draw and placement is different everytime I think each adventure will be good for a few replays.

Leveling up can happen, as each monster does dole out XP in a way. This is represented by flipping the hero card over to see new stats. The level doesn't carry over to the next adventure, basically every game is a clear slate. That bugs me a bit, I hope for expansions that will allow a bit of campaign style fun.

All in all as a way to spend Sunday afternoons and get 42 minis to paint I think it was a good deal at 65$.

As I noted in my earlier post, the reception has been such that I have decided that I'll pick up Ashardalon in Nov. Not sure I'll be buying anything else more D&D proper related, we did play some 3.5 here, through the starter set and had a good time but the boardgame does offer, quickness in setup, and cleanup and no worries about needing a regular group to keep the adventure moving (whaddya mean the cleric can't make it because they're sick tonight?)

I was getting ready to post some thoughts on Ravenloft. The one thing that seems to be passed over is that it is Nintendo Hard. With only 8 hit points on average to start and an obscene amount of monsters/events that do damage on a miss you get whittled down fast.

We will perservere. We shall not die. We were the first, and we shall be the last. ALL HAIL THE GREAT GOD GYGAX!!!!!!!!!

This sounds an awful lot like what people said when Gary Gygax sold off his shares in TSR in 1986, when TSR was making more money from Dragonlance books than the game in the 90s, when WOTC bought D&D in 1997, when 3.5 came out, and probably many other times.

Why is this thread still alive? I posted this months and months ago

Most be all the people trying to stay next to the cool people.