So, there seems to be a core set of rumours emerging this week about the changes in 8th edition. I'm wondering what others think about how they're going to affect High Elf list building and tactics.

1. There's a rumour that army composition is going to be based on points percentage again (i.e. 25% max for heros, 25% max for rare, etc...) Does anyone thing that HE will get exceptions to the rules like we do now, minimizing core requirements and giving us more special? I've seen both 25% and 50% given for Special caps, I don't think 50% would be a problem, but 25% would be difficult to fill (500 points max in a 2k point game). More concerning to me is the cap on heroes is rumoured to be 25%. That would effectively remove the Star Dragon from 2000 point games unless you're willing to underequip him and give up any magic defense.

2. The "step forward" rumor. HE survivability has been about killing the enemy before he can hit back. If this rumor is true (that 2nd rank can move up and attack if the first rank is killed) then we're going to be taking a lot more damage. I can see this leading to a shift away from swordmasters to the more heavily armored dragon princes.

3. The new primacy of infantry blocks. The various rumours about this are more muddled, but the overarching theme is that people are going to be taking more large infantry blocks. The question here is will it be enough to see more spearmen and sea guard? What would it take for you to field str 3 infantry?

4. Archers fire in two ranks. This doesn't seem like a big deal, I'd just put my 10 archers in 2 ranks instead of one. However, it would make sea guard slightly more useful.

Personally, I'd love to be able to field some big blocks of sea guard, but it'd be a pretty big stretch to make them worth 13 points each, especially if ASF becomes less useful. I'm a little bit worried about the rules being retooled to emphasize big blocks (which I think is a good idea) when I'm playing an army that's all about small elite units. I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts and predictions about what the rumours could mean, especially any new combos that may become useful. I know these are all rumours and at least some of it probably won't be true, but I'm bored and speculation is fun.

Two rank shooting seems interesting. As you've mentioned, most will simply go 2 ranks of five, though hills provide some other options. I think this is something that helps infantry armies too- as you can take infantry shooters and the huge long lines won't disrupt things as much as they currently do. It's why I don't usually run thunderers or quarrellers in my armies.

I agree about the 'step up' rule being a pain to HE (and to a lesser degree DE) due to their fragility. As a dwarf generally striking last anyways, it provides a mild boost, though I typically don't kill much anyhow.

RZ

All I know is that I am currently having a star dragon converted aat great expense and I've dropped a few hundred over the last year in buying up HEs and have just started assembing them.

Now after the release of al the rumours I'm putting everything on hold and will be going back to 40k after a 4 year hiatus... the percentages are going to kill my dreams of dragon riding general. :(

Also I'll expand my Lizardmen as I have some tourneys in August that will be using 7th ed rules.

I know high elves rely on it, as well as my dark elves, but i personally think ASF is poorly done.

Charging is meant to be an advantage, but always strikes first completely takes that away.

I am not looking forward to 8th ed. IMHO it is going to cause more problems than it fixes. I am in the same boat with my DE, all the money and time spent assembling them will be wasted since I wont be able to field the army I want. I really don't think GW cares about the game play. They talk about their epic games and models, but in the end they are just another company trying to make money. New changes mean new material people have to buy. I am seriously thinking about taking another long break from WHFB. At least I think there is a Necromunda league at the FLGS.

boogeyman wrote:I really don't think GW cares about the game play.

http://www.bugeatergames.com/?p=123

boogeyman wrote:I am not looking forward to 8th ed. IMHO it is going to cause more problems than it fixes. I am in the same boat with my DE, all the money and time spent assembling them will be wasted since I wont be able to field the army I want. I really don't think GW cares about the game play. They talk about their epic games and models, but in the end they are just another company trying to make money. New changes mean new material people have to buy. I am seriously thinking about taking another long break from WHFB. At least I think there is a Necromunda league at the FLGS.

Im nervous about a few changes, but some of them seem so outlandish that i doubt they are real.

Im not sure about the point % either, as 25% of characters for a 2k army is your dreadlord on a dragon.. This is without taking any magic items also....

On the other hand i am kind of looking forward to that. No more seeing a hero on a dragon and 3 blocks of other units. The table might actually start looking like it has an army on it.

I think that knowing GW the rumors are ture...Just look at some of the stuff that has recently came out - SW, BA, and Skaven to name a few.

cptjoeyg wrote:I think that knowing GW the rumors are ture...Just look at some of the stuff that has recently came out - SW, BA, and Skaven to name a few.

What are you getting at with Skaven hehe? They are a decent army, but not nearly as strong as daemons, DE, or VC.

Specs wrote:So, there seems to be a core set of rumours emerging this week about the changes in 8th edition. I'm wondering what others think about how they're going to affect High Elf list building and tactics.

1. There's a rumour that army composition is going to be based on points percentage again (i.e. 25% max for heros, 25% max for rare, etc...) Does anyone thing that HE will get exceptions to the rules like we do now, minimizing core requirements and giving us more special? I've seen both 25% and 50% given for Special caps, I don't think 50% would be a problem, but 25% would be difficult to fill (500 points max in a 2k point game). More concerning to me is the cap on heroes is rumoured to be 25%. That would effectively remove the Star Dragon from 2000 point games unless you're willing to underequip him and give up any magic defense.

2. The "step forward" rumor. HE survivability has been about killing the enemy before he can hit back. If this rumor is true (that 2nd rank can move up and attack if the first rank is killed) then we're going to be taking a lot more damage. I can see this leading to a shift away from swordmasters to the more heavily armored dragon princes.

3. The new primacy of infantry blocks. The various rumours about this are more muddled, but the overarching theme is that people are going to be taking more large infantry blocks. The question here is will it be enough to see more spearmen and sea guard? What would it take for you to field str 3 infantry?

4. Archers fire in two ranks. This doesn't seem like a big deal, I'd just put my 10 archers in 2 ranks instead of one. However, it would make sea guard slightly more useful.

Personally, I'd love to be able to field some big blocks of sea guard, but it'd be a pretty big stretch to make them worth 13 points each, especially if ASF becomes less useful. I'm a little bit worried about the rules being retooled to emphasize big blocks (which I think is a good idea) when I'm playing an army that's all about small elite units. I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts and predictions about what the rumours could mean, especially any new combos that may become useful. I know these are all rumours and at least some of it probably won't be true, but I'm bored and speculation is fun.

1) Yeah I honestly think that the Daemon book was written the 25% understanding in mind. 2 things are going to happen with this change IMO. Characters on dragons are going to become much, much more powerful because the number of tools that someone may have to deal with it will become tougher to take. Players will not be able to depend on Magic to win a game for them either. Coupled with this (and this is important) is that most games are going to be played at 3k points, and 3k is going to become the tournament standard, giving a tad more flexibility because you'll have 750 points to putter around with.

2) Combat is a whole new ballgame. One of the most prevalent attached rumors to the "step up" rule is that no matter how many attacks the model has, it still will only get one attack if it had to step up. Since it sounds like multiple ranks will be able to attack in combat now (2 standard, 3 for spears, 5 ranks for elf spears!!!) a typical 6x2 swordmasters unit is going to have 25 attacks before anything resolves. Even if they do take a few wounds collaterally, they are still going to rock face against whatever they end up attacking.

3)With 5 ranks of attacks? Uhh. That means all of your models are pretty much always attacking. 7x5 plus full command is 35 attacks. We start to get into the realm of both silly, and effective when talking about that sort of weight of attacks, especially when ASF comes into the mix.

4) The cheaper the archer, the more effective the rule. Elf Archers are the most expensive, meaning they benefit less.

HE Cavalry are going to be massively less effective unless they are 2 attack base cavalry or have the lance formation. This is because you don't get multiple ranks of attacks. So you come in with 7 str 5 attacks and then another 6 str 3 attacks, and your opponent fights back with whatever he's got left. High Elves on foot point for point are simply going to have a stronger weight of attacks.

I'm scared of 8th edition.

What is Warhammer coming to?

I thought the whole fight-in-two ranks was dismissed as an incorrect account of the step-forward change. If it wasn't and all infantry does fight in 2 ranks, plus an extra for spears and another for martial prowess, pless step-forward, then our infantry will be pretty good. The more I look at things, the more I think we'll be seeing a lot more LSG.

I'm not scared of 8th ed., I'm actually looking forward to it. WFB is all about infantry blocks. If everything became monsters and skirmishers then it'd just be 40k. I want to see a more block focussed game, but I just hope I don't have to shoe-box all my models and replace them to have a half-way competitive army. Hopefully, the FAQs, etc... will help balance things.

P.S. GW: While you're making changes, don't forget to make Silver Helms core.

but I just hope I don't have to shoe-box all my models and replace them to have a half-way competitive army. Hopefully, the FAQs, etc... will help balance things.

That is what I'm scared about

And you know what will make THAT happen?

Percentages.

ShivanAngel wrote:

boogeyman wrote:I am not looking forward to 8th ed. IMHO it is going to cause more problems than it fixes. I am in the same boat with my DE, all the money and time spent assembling them will be wasted since I wont be able to field the army I want. I really don't think GW cares about the game play. They talk about their epic games and models, but in the end they are just another company trying to make money. New changes mean new material people have to buy. I am seriously thinking about taking another long break from WHFB. At least I think there is a Necromunda league at the FLGS.

Im nervous about a few changes, but some of them seem so outlandish that i doubt they are real.

Im not sure about the point % either, as 25% of characters for a 2k army is your dreadlord on a dragon.. This is without taking any magic items also....

On the other hand i am kind of looking forward to that. No more seeing a hero on a dragon and 3 blocks of other units. The table might actually start looking like it has an army on it.

Problem for GW is that their whole existence is focused on selling minis. The rules are a means to do that.
Why would anyone buy a dragon mounted model anywmore?
I assume all mounts will be included in the cost.
So a Skaven Grey Seer on a doombell will be the only character in a 2000 point skaven army.
Seems pretty dumb doesn't it?
This is probably why there have been rumours they are going to 3000 points as a 'base' game (IMHO just stupid as will take too long to get an army of that size) but it will allow you a big character and 1-2 heroes.

Well, while I'll still get the new starter set for the new High Elf models...I'm gonna hold off on doing anything drastic with my Asur until we get the Rule Book.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

boogeyman wrote:I am not looking forward to 8th ed. IMHO it is going to cause more problems than it fixes. I am in the same boat with my DE, all the money and time spent assembling them will be wasted since I wont be able to field the army I want. I really don't think GW cares about the game play. They talk about their epic games and models, but in the end they are just another company trying to make money. New changes mean new material people have to buy. I am seriously thinking about taking another long break from WHFB. At least I think there is a Necromunda league at the FLGS.

Im nervous about a few changes, but some of them seem so outlandish that i doubt they are real.

Im not sure about the point % either, as 25% of characters for a 2k army is your dreadlord on a dragon.. This is without taking any magic items also....

On the other hand i am kind of looking forward to that. No more seeing a hero on a dragon and 3 blocks of other units. The table might actually start looking like it has an army on it.

Problem for GW is that their whole existence is focused on selling minis. The rules are a means to do that.
Why would anyone buy a dragon mounted model anywmore?
I assume all mounts will be included in the cost.
So a Skaven Grey Seer on a doombell will be the only character in a 2000 point skaven army.
Seems pretty dumb doesn't it?
This is probably why there have been rumours they are going to 3000 points as a 'base' game (IMHO just stupid as will take too long to get an army of that size) but it will allow you a big character and 1-2 heroes.

Yeah the mounts are the only things that are getting me atm, and how to do them. My only guess is the cost of your mount may be taken out of your rare or special in some cases? So many of these rumors conflict or completely change the game. Its basically if this happens then there is no way this will happen. But if this and this happen that cant happen..

For me the problem isn't the base rules (sure they can do with fine tuning every edition). It SHOULD be, essentially a stable game system- they have had 25 years to perfect it.

The problem is the studio's inability to write army books that work within the rules of the games.
They are just way too sloppy with special rules, stats, points and magic item combos.

Which is why every black guard unit in DE armies suddenly has the ASF banner, or the drakenhof banner on every grave guard unit, or evey daemon army has fleash hounds, flamers and horrors.

They were doing a good job up until HE (when they screwed silver helms and ellyrian reavers and to a lesser extent overpriced spearmen) then it all fell apart after VC.

So basically...2250 will be the new 1500....

Mother....so what, I just have to buy another 750 points of models for tournies, after I JUST bought my $300 worth of 2250 points.

I'm not made of money, GW can only go so far with their prices before people just start saying "No"

@Waaagh - I'm with you on that. I feel like a lot of the changes they're putting into this are fixing problems that either weren't really big problems or were problems of specific books/builds.

Prior to the HE books, we had which books?

-Bretonnia
-Empire
-O&G
-Ogre Kingdoms
-Wood Elves
-Dwarfs
-Tomb Kings (sort of).

All reasonably balanced against each other (can't speak for Brets or Ogres, though).

Then High Elves came around which caused an uproar because of the Army-wide ASF (which was less game-breaking than people thought).

Then VC which escalated the Magic Phase creep and started the trend toward super-killy heroes.

Dark Elves continued the Army-Wide special rule creep with Eternal Hatred and just had "no question" units like Black Guard. It also really pushed the "un-killable" Lord/Hero trend with the crazy armor/ward/regen combinations that you could provide them. Monster Hammer really started showing up here. Some just stupid magic item pricing.

Daemons was just plain dumb-powerful. Army Wide Fear/Ward Save/ITP with decent stats all around to boost? Stupid amounts of Magic.

Lizardmen - More monsters. More Magic. More 4+ armor. More attacks per model.

Warriors - actually, I've got no experience with these guys, can't say.

Skaven - don't know much about these guys, but seems like more "obvious choice" monsters, sloppy and unclear rules

Beasts - even more monsters with crazy abilities (not necessarily unbalanced, but just more and more of them).

Specs wrote:
1. More concerning to me is the cap on heroes is rumoured to be 25%. That would effectively remove the Star Dragon from 2000 point games

4. Archers fire in two ranks. This doesn't seem like a big deal, I'd just put my 10 archers in 2 ranks instead of one. However, it would make sea guard slightly more useful.

1) Won't you be able to field a Moon or Sun Dragon? Also, i though the standard size tourny game will be 3k instead of 2k. That will be a max of 750 points, sun dragon plus lord, plus 100 pnts of magic items is 480 pnts. Upgrade to moon is 550.

4) So does this mean archers on a hill will be able to fire in three ranks? If so, lothern seaguard will be much better than they are now.

Hello all,

I believe we are all getting off to a bad start, we know certain rules are just flat not going to happen, no matter what some of the Warseer posters are saying. I am not going into them all but here are a few I know are BS, and some are likely true and why I think that.

Percentages:
-This is just a wishlist rumor from some of the guys on Warseer, and I have less than 0 confidence in it being true, hell that is the kind of thing that gets a book writer fired, (and possibly lynched by players.) In fact if it is true, I suggest that we get a movement together to get said writer fired.

Magic changes:
-These are really stupid as GW, has learned from past versions to follow the first rule (KISS), keep it simple stupid.
-Now some of the rules are still kind of wonky but those are for balance, that was figured out in previous editions.

Combat Changes:
-Step up: Possibly could be added to increase profit margin to GW, as people will buy larger units. This seems very reasonable and quite possible.

-One save not layered saves: This is also likely for the same reason, but I won't like it since I am a fan of Phoenix Guard, but oh well.

Movement Changes:
-Heavy Cavalry can't march: This seems very reasonable and once again will return the focus to infantry blocks where they make more money. . . I actually expect this, possibly with some more movement spells.

Where do you get the idea that percentages are a warseer wishlist rumour?

Reliable sources (including our own Reds8n) have stated time and again that this is one of the most confident assertions regarding the 8th edition rules. When people with good track records of giving reliable early information say the same thing repeatedly, I'm inclined to believe them.

What strikes me is that lots of people don't want there to be percentages because of the changes that it (may) mean to their armies. However, there are a number of factors to consider here.

1. Although there is high confidence that percentages will be introduced, the exact figures are still unknown. It could be 25%, but could well go as high as 50% - a level which would pretty well retain the status quo for most people's current selections.
2. The increase is standard game size to 3,000 points would mean that even a 25% restriction will still give you 750 points to spend on characters. Yes, you would not be able to take a lord on dragon with 3 powerful support charcters, you would be forced to make the choice between more characters or better characters - and these characters will be in an environment where they do not dominate the game due to the high numbers of RnF. Is this not just forcing you to think more tactically and to refocus the game from being a hero duel to a confrontation of armies?
3. Army composition changes every time there is a new edition of the rules and a new edition of an army book. It is a fundamental part of being involved with GW for more than a couple of years. Change will happen, on a regular basis. If it wasn't this that was changing, it would be something else.

Ultimately, whatever the change it will need dealing with but on its own merits and with whatever the final facts turn out to be. If you decide you cannot live with the changes the GW has lost a customer - but don't fool yourself into thinking that they'll lose sleep over the fact. There are far more people who will either agree with the changes or at least not care enough to let it drive them away.

I'd be running units of 20 archers to get to the 25% quota if the fire in 2 ranks is true, I'd be used to running them 10 wide currently anyway so why not take advantage of it. Suddenly makes shooting spam viable, and will make wood eld glade guard devestating....

As an example I just came up with this gem for 3000 points to fit in with the rumoured army changes.
NOTE: I could get rid of the prince and go magic spam, which will probably end up being better for the army and replace the white lions with more shadow warriors.

Prince, star dragon, Halbard, vambraces defence, armour caledor, amulet of light
Mage, level 1, dispel scroll.
24.8%

CORE:
20 archers
20 archers
20 archers
20 archers
20 archers
36.8%

SPECIAL:
20 White Lions, full command, standard of balance
6 shadow warriors
6 shadow warriors
5 shadow warriors
21.7%

RARE:
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Great eagle
Great Eagle
16.7%

'Dice rolling to amuse me and piss off my opponent for 4 turns'hammer with thanks to the new rules.

There isn't much that will survive 117 BS 4 Longbows and 4 repeater bolt throwers whilst Eagles and shadow warriors are busy redirecting and march blocking. Anything does get through it gets flank/rear charged by the prince and dragon.

Noone wins with this rubbish.

Oddly enough, the percentage caps weren't really something that I minded among the rumors. I find them to be one of the less objectionable issues of the rumors.

The fact that they're really gonna reduce the speed of our heavy cavalry (Silver Helms without shields will be an option finally, though) is going to hurt. And that shooting in two rows business will be more trouble for Swordmasters to deal with.

While I'm not opposed to those rules changes in a holistic sense, the HE army book + new rules I suspect will 'encourage' shootier options for High Elves.

I notice little mention of what D6+4 terrain pieces mean. Can any of you see shooty HE lists working anywhere near as effectively with an average of almost double the pieces of terrain on the board? That's going to muck up a lot of Bolt Throwers and Archer Lines from being used effectively alongside blocks that need to cover the gaps in cover.

Minsc wrote:I notice little mention of what D6+4 terrain pieces mean. Can any of you see shooty HE lists working anywhere near as effectively with an average of almost double the pieces of terrain on the board? That's going to muck up a lot of Bolt Throwers and Archer Lines from being used effectively alongside blocks that need to cover the gaps in cover.

Huge amounts of terrain will also hamper the enemy getting to you and allow funneling of them through the gaps in the terrain. Which is why I took 3 scouting units in the above list.

I once had the misfortune of playing against WEs with my lizardmen at 2500 points on a table with 2 hills (opposite corners )and 9 woods, one of which was the WE player's wood.

I couldn't make it past half way accross the table as I physically couldn't fit more than one unit through a gap between the forests at a time. He got into the woods to march block me and then just blew away each unit as it entered a gap.



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In retrospect I think I would take units of 10 archers instead of 20- 10 of them in the above list, just for points denial and have more quarter capturers.

I have a hard time seeing percentages making a comeback, mostly because many of the younger players cant seem to add up their points correctly as is, let alone start checking a percent value on top of that.

I don't mind the whole precent caps for various selections like Characters or special choices. I wasn't so bad back in the day (I'm remembering the when I started High Elves back in 1995).

I only hope that spear elves can wear heavy armour again, so I can use them to hold a battle line again...

Percentages don't bother me. I was always bothered by the I'll take the min number of archers and fill as many specials as I possibly can. I tend to wait on the new book rather than fear potential changes that may be playtested out before release.

Jin wrote:Oddly enough, the percentage caps weren't really something that I minded among the rumors. I find them to be one of the less objectionable issues of the rumors.

The fact that they're really gonna reduce the speed of our heavy cavalry (Silver Helms without shields will be an option finally, though) is going to hurt. And that shooting in two rows business will be more trouble for Swordmasters to deal with.

While I'm not opposed to those rules changes in a holistic sense, the HE army book + new rules I suspect will 'encourage' shootier options for High Elves.

RETURN OF ITHILMAR BARDING!!!!!!!!

In earlier editions the speed of cavalry was reduced by the 1" for Heavy Armour and 1" for barding, but the High Elves Ithilmar took away the 1" for heavy armor, but left the barding hindrance there. 6th ed got rid of the heavy armour penalty so they gave the Elves ithilmar barding that negated that rule too, but took it away in 7th ed for some reason :( Now maybe, just maybe we'll get it back.

Incidentally, apparently the rumors of the Heavy cavalry not being able to march have been nixed.

Ithilmar barding was nice in 6th.

Ah, I can't keep up, but apparently high elves will have an exception to the special restrictions (only 3 of one type) or rare restrictions (only 2 of one type) because they're an elite army? Makes sense... was wondering how HE would cope with 25% core (well, I'm still wondering that...)

Sorry if that's already been covered in this thread!

Durandal wrote:I have a hard time seeing percentages making a comeback, mostly because many of the younger players cant seem to add up their points correctly as is, let alone start checking a percent value on top of that.

I wouldnt chock this up to only younger players...

I know plenty of adults that couldnt add up a list correctly if their life depended on it.I was a math tutor in college and there were adults who didnt even get order of operations..... Luckily we have things like army builder that do it for us.

Also percentages are learned in 5th grade i think, it wouldnt be hard to say ok, take the maximum points for your army and multiply by 0.25, thats how many characters, etc, etc... Even draw a little table....

ShivanAngel wrote:

Also percentages are learned in 5th grade i think, it wouldnt be hard to say ok, take the maximum points for your army and divide by 0.25, thats how many characters, etc, etc... Even draw a little table....

And you were a math tutor?

(dividing by .25 is the same as multiplying by 4) I think you meant to type "multiply by .25". Most army tabulation is done in advance... I don't see percentages being a problem, ESP if the rumors of tourny sizes changing is true...

Platuan4th wrote:

ShivanAngel wrote:

Also percentages are learned in 5th grade i think, it wouldnt be hard to say ok, take the maximum points for your army and divide by 0.25, thats how many characters, etc, etc... Even draw a little table....

And you were a math tutor?

gak

Thats why i tutored in the afternoon and not 730 am....

Part of the rumored 500 page behomoth of a rulebook we're looking at is actually each army is going to be getting a bit of a "treatment" to bring the old book in line with current rules.

So there's really no reason at this juncture to speculate on potential % caps for the HE's.

After doing some Testing. I must say that Spearmen being 7x3 wil be a thing of the past. 5x5 for Spearmen is going to be the new rage for HE. Meanwhile all of the other races will move to 7x3 for their spearmen.

The rumours are so varied, and so many require a complete retyink of the high Elf army that this is very difficult to call.

I am prepared to wait.

However one thing I suspect is that High Elf archery will not get the price drop it needs because they have the 'advantage' now of firing in two ranks. I cannot afford one rank of archers let alone two.


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ShivanAngel wrote:

Durandal wrote:I have a hard time seeing percentages making a comeback, mostly because many of the younger players cant seem to add up their points correctly as is, let alone start checking a percent value on top of that.

I wouldnt chock this up to only younger players...

I know plenty of adults that couldnt add up a list correctly if their life depended on it.I was a math tutor in college and there were adults who didnt even get order of operations..... Luckily we have things like army builder that do it for us.

Also percentages are learned in 5th grade i think, it wouldnt be hard to say ok, take the maximum points for your army and multiply by 0.25, thats how many characters, etc, etc... Even draw a little table....

I copncur with this. Jervis wants to dumb down the game removing options and choice in the name of clarity and then adds percentages. How idiotic.

Well, reading through the newer set of confirmed/strong rumors, some observations:

ASF + ASL (Great Weapons) = Fight at Initiative value. Coupled with
ASF + I greater than opponent = Re-roll to hit

Means that Swordmasters and White Lions won't be nerfed. Against most armies, this means that they just got a nice boost since now they'll get re-rolls against most non-elven enemies. Coupled with High WS + extra attacks from second ranks means that they'll do a lot more damage per combat than before.

The second rumor mentioned also will help make PG a more viable damage-dealer as well (puts them on par with Black Guard now).


Fight with one more rank, spears fight with +1, Stubborn if you have more ranks than the enemy -

I think I'm gonna start running spears 6x4 now. These guys are actually gonna be quite nasty against most non-elven infantry. They'll take more hits in general from the enemy, but more likely than not, you'll be causing more casualties per combat as well. (You go from 50% chance of hitting -assuming you need 4's- to 75% chance of hitting. If you're hitting on 3's, that's an increase from 67%->88% hit rate).


No more S7 Chariot auto-kill
Obviously this makes chariots more viable (and makes the Lion Chariot not as bad a point sink if hit by a cannon or something).


Must have 2 ranks to negate flanks
Cavalry in general is getting a bit hit by this. Those 5-6 strong Dragon Princes will still do decent damage, but you'll have to overcome the +2-3 rank bonuses on the charge (shouldn't be terrible. Rubber-lance syndrome should be mitigated for them a lot).


Fast cavalry and Skirmishers
Well, at least Reavers will be faster at what they do now. Not quite sure how Shadow Warriors will fare (other than boosts from ASF + Higher Init).


General Shooting Rules
This is gonna be an across the board pain in the butt, and we'll see more Stone-Throwers in other armies. While the combat rumors suggest that we'll get a pretty decent buff to combat, we'll be taking more hits from shooting. I suspect the old MSU-style lists will be less prevalent.

Archers are still over-priced. LSG are somewhat more valid now.


Percentage Caps, Redundancy Caps
Obviously, the 2x 10 Archers minimum lists are no longer going to be valid. 2 Large Block of Spears/LSG + 10 Archers will likely be my go to infantry base. The bump in Core reqs means less Heroes or Specials. Star Dragon Princes will be limited to 2.5k games at minimum.


Magic
Teclis has been toned down a bit, and scroll caddies won't be _as_ necessary as before. Though a Lvl 2 using High Magic with Silver Wand and scroll (or RoF) doesn't seem like a bad choice.


Granted, this is all speculation based off of the most recent rumors. Still, I don't think it'll work out horribly for the High Elves. The biggest worry is now going to be the enemy shooting phase, IMO. While I'm still uncertain about how Movement/Magic will work out, it doesn't seem to bad for the elves.

Silver Helms still suck.

Specs wrote:So, there seems to be a core set of rumours emerging this week about the changes in 8th edition. I'm wondering what others think about how they're going to affect High Elf list building and tactics.

JUST TO CLARIFY YOUR RUMORS

1. There's a rumour that army composition is going to be based on points percentage again (i.e. 25% max for heros, 25% max for rare, etc...) Does anyone thing that HE will get exceptions to the rules like we do now, minimizing core requirements and giving us more special? I've seen both 25% and 50% given for Special caps, I don't think 50% would be a problem, but 25% would be difficult to fill (500 points max in a 2k point game). More concerning to me is the cap on heroes is rumoured to be 25%. That would effectively remove the Star Dragon from 2000 point games unless you're willing to underequip him and give up any magic defense.

That percent rules are true.

2. The "step forward" rumor. HE survivability has been about killing the enemy before he can hit back. If this rumor is true (that 2nd rank can move up and attack if the first rank is killed) then we're going to be taking a lot more damage. I can see this leading to a shift away from swordmasters to the more heavily armored dragon princes.

That is also true, you now remove dead units from the rear, and any remaining units can still attack back.

3. The new primacy of infantry blocks. The various rumours about this are more muddled, but the overarching theme is that people are going to be taking more large infantry blocks. The question here is will it be enough to see more spearmen and sea guard? What would it take for you to field str 3 infantry?

4. Archers fire in two ranks. This doesn't seem like a big deal, I'd just put my 10 archers in 2 ranks instead of one. However, it would make sea guard slightly more useful.

That is also true.

Personally, I'd love to be able to field some big blocks of sea guard, but it'd be a pretty big stretch to make them worth 13 points each, especially if ASF becomes less useful. I'm a little bit worried about the rules being retooled to emphasize big blocks (which I think is a good idea) when I'm playing an army that's all about small elite units. I'd be interested in hearing others' thoughts and predictions about what the rumours could mean, especially any new combos that may become useful. I know these are all rumours and at least some of it probably won't be true, but I'm bored and speculation is fun.

I think that I will run a 30-50 block of LSG. I think with the chariot taking 3 wounds to drop, may make Korhil on Chariot very fun to play as an assassin I think

I wonder if the chariots will be subjected to the rumor of shared profile when having chars mounted in them. T3 chariots will not be cool.

cypher wrote:I wonder if the chariots will be subjected to the rumor of shared profile when having chars mounted in them. T3 chariots will not be cool.

I do agree with that, however I wonder by sticking a char in a chariot it would increase the stats of said chariot for example the Daemon chariots in 40k. Yes one profile but with 5 wounds is still pretty decent.

Can any one say high elf spear blocks? If you mob them (10 wide 3 deep) Up to 5 ranks for high elves can attack 4 for regular spear based.

Spears and LSG are now fairly legitimate anvil units, I would say.

24-30-strong blocks will likely be the new norm.

Jin wrote:Spears and LSG are now fairly legitimate anvil units, I would say.

24-30-strong blocks will likely be the new norm.

Will have to wait for the errta but I think Phoenix Guard will be even more so.

Definitely, although now, they can actually dish out quite a bit of damage. I would say PG can be used a lot more aggressively now with the ASF bonuses.

PG might be able to dish out some hurt but at 400pts for 25 of em they are still ridiculously expensive.

With the rumor that flanked units lose their stubborn bonuses i'm not sure just how well high elves will do. Swordmasters will be sorely needed to grind down big units till they break but those same swordmasters will take a beating from the swings back.

Gonna be an interesting game for the elves again. I kinda like it.

I did up some thoery hammer whilst at a lecture today.

30 Phoenix guard, 10 wide with a full command is the best I could come up with from the infantry units.

The 4+ ward save is just fantastic for survivability.

The other specials just fall like wheat with T3 and heavy armour.

Also a Level 4 arch mage with The staff sorcery (+1 dispel) for +4 to cast and +6 to dispel is going to be great.

30 Phoenix guard, 10 wide with a full command is the best I could come up with from the infantry units.

I'm sorry but unless the points values for armies are increasing from 2000 to something like 3000 or 4000, I can't see why people insist on massive units like that.

Your army will have two or three of those massive units in it, plus a few heroes and warmachines. How many enemy units did you plan to kill with them during 6 turns? What happens when the enemy has 3 mortars and 2 rocket batteries? Their accuracy increased by a ton and partials seem to be gone (the last time I checked the stone thrower rules there is no mention at all of partial hits, just that everyone wholly or partially hit is hit).

The way I see it, High Elves should be running three units of 15 Lothern Seaguard as core. They are reasonably useful units and just about cover the 25% mandatory restriction in 2250 or 2500p games.

As for other units, I was thinking of obviously a Dragon or two, two RBTs, and either a ton of chariots or a mix of chariots and Dragon Princesses.

Remember that ASF units that have initiative higher than their opponent get to re-roll hits every turn.

Also a Level 4 arch mage with The staff sorcery (+1 dispel) for +4 to cast and +6 to dispel is going to be great

The time of lord level casters is over. A lot of level 2 wizards can either get the full 6 spells of any lore or atleast 3 spells, which is enough to get a ton of useful stuff since the signature spell is usually very good (like the lore of fire). Now the price difference between the lord and a cheapo like this can be as big as 300 points, and all the lord does better is +2 more to cast and two more spells. Additionally, when his head blows up to a miscast, you're losing an expensive model but also your general. I wouldn't recommend them to anyone. Just like I won't recommend Greater Daemons who intend to cast spells. Magic is totally fickle, as you can get as low as 2 power dice on a critical turn your Kairos Fateweaver was supposed to do something important. It's better to just have a cheap wizard with a few spells and when you randomise 12 dice just go nuts with 6 dice on 2 big spells (average casting power 23 per spell and a very high chance of irresistible force, all done by a guy who costs 100-125 points).

Lord level casters still work, Therion, but you're going to see them (on average) throwing much less dice out unless you're trying for an IF / MC. Until many army-specific lores are swapped, they'll have an edge in that a good number of their spells will be simple enough to cast on a 3+ which means either single-die spam (not really caring for the chance of no more casting that turn) or two dice (meaning only a 1-in-36 chance of spell failure with another 1-in-36 being an IF / Miscast).

What you say on the big spells holds, however: You're going to watch people take low-level casters for them now, as - while less likely to go off barring an IF - they're risking much less in the process (100pt Hero v 250pt Lord).

Like I noted, it's not only a question of deadly miscasts posing a thread to an expensive caster, it's also the fact that spending on a lord level wizard means you should be able expect some value out of that investment. We cannot safely say anything anymore about the short term casting power of any wizard because of power dice randomisation. We can count averages but six magic phases is such a short period you might go the whole game with little or no power dice. What we know is that when snake eyes is rolled a 100 point investment into a level 1 wizard will cast as many spells as a 260 point investment into a level 4, and both will have nearly an equal chance of getting a huge spell like 3D6 Fireball or Purple Sun off once they do randomise some dice to play around with.

On top of that, many magic items intended for level 4 wizards are now completely overcosted.

Personally, I'll go for a fighty lord and a cheap level 1/2 wizard every time. Lizardmen should naturally go for a Slann because of his extra abilities, and there might be some other exception too. In the case of High Elves as discussed in the thread though, I've got to argue for the Star Dragon Prince 100% of games and tournaments.

another thing to consider

you could get 3 level 2 wizards for the same or just a little more then the lvl 4 wizard. and with those 3 lvl 2's you can get every spell in the lore.

All the extra points really pay for are an additional +2 to casting values....

Actually thats pretty huge lol.

Plus remember you are getting +4 to dispel. If your opponent only has level 1's and 2's, then that +4 is going to be huge. Not to mention against bound spells.

Kill and I got into this over on the other thread about the banner of Sorc... but I Think it bears repeating here.

I don't have the book, and haven't paged through it, but from what I've heard, I simply can't imagine people taking more than 1 level 4 or 2 lvl 2's in anything but the most extreme of circumstances any more.

Also: I had heard that you get the +lvl to cast, but you don't get the +lvl to dispell. Can anyone confirm/deny?
It actually makes quite the difference. I'd consider spending the extra 100 or so points just to have another +2 to my dispell.

Finally: Speculation that 3 lvl 2's would get you all of the spells from the lore...
A) I thought every lore had 7 spells now and
B) The way spells are selected (according to things I've heard) is still the same. Which means roll a die, decide whether you want it, roll another die, if you get doubles you either roll again, or it becomes a 1. Everyone can have multiples of the 1 spell. The odds fall dramatically that you will have the whole range of spells with that system. (I wanna say that you'll only have the whole range around 55% of the time in that system)

It seems you haven't read the book properly since you're wrong on multiple parts:

1. You get the +lvl to dispel also.
2. The way spells are selected is that if a wizard randomises a spell that someone already has, he gets to select any spell he likes from the lore that noone yet has, instead of rolling again.

Therion wrote:It seems you haven't read the book properly since you're wrong on multiple parts:

1. You get the +lvl to dispel also.
2. The way spells are selected is that if a wizard randomises a spell that someone already has, he gets to select any spell he likes from the lore that noone yet has, instead of rolling again.

2nd line of my last post. Yep.. I haven't read the book properly.

What if you roll a 1? Or do all lores have 0 level spells?

Im kinda flipping between the archmage vs fighty lord argument.
On the one hand Theron is right. The archmage has the potential to be great and do a huge amount of damage but it also has the potential to fail miserably, moreso than in previous versions. His biggest asset is the ability to thin down large ranked units with spells such as flames of the phoenix. He also provides the amazing 5 to dispel.
The fighty lord is only vaguely better than white lion or sword master unit champions. His only real asset is riding the star dragon. However, this makes him bate for cannons who now have easier LOS and hit both the rider and the dragon at once (or so I have heard). The dragon also has the disadvantage in that it cannot take units on alone. It needs ranked units to support it.

I think the choice will come down to what armies you regularly face. Lizards,chaos, deamons - take the dragon. Dwarfs, empire, other high elves - take the archmage.


Core - Seaguard are the way to go. I am going to start with 25 man blocks as they fight in 4 ranks so there are some casualties to lose before I lose any attacks. Add to this the fact that the stand and shoot with 19 shots is actually something to fear and you have a good core unit to base the army around.

Special - All still have their purpose minus the pointless skirmishers.

Rare - Still great though eagles arent as cool as they use to be. Will have to read the rules in detail to see just how much they lost.

My army will look something like this to start
points are very rough

Archmage - 300 pts
BSB - 200 pts (probabally less)

2x25 seaguard - 650
25 phoenix guard - 350
14 sword masters - 240
10 dragon princes - 300
Full cmd in all
3x bolt throwers - 300
2x eagle - 100

This gives me a lot of offensive power to thin down the oncoming army along with a few units who can destroy harder units such as chaos warriors and a few units that can hang around for a long time. I might need to throw in some white lions or chariots to deal with the really heavily armored units as i am not sure just how well this will deal with multiple knight units. Fortunately these armies will become less common in 8th.

The army is kind of small for my tastes and that may have to change as I like more units running around.

Ragnar4 wrote:
What if you roll a 1? Or do all lores have 0 level spells?

All the book lores have a Signature spell(0th spell).

High elves got a buff and a hit from this book (just finished reading it).

They keep ASF and now it lets them reroll hits if their I is higher!

However they relied on that ASF to keep their poorly armored low T guys from getting hit back!

I think this just further adds to the you will need to take big blocks of infantry now!

This exact thing happened to eldar when 5th edition came out.

They removed the killzone from close combats, allowing close combat casualties to be taken from the back, and also they added a defender reaction, which would be analagous to removing clipping.

Simultanously, they let supporting attackers (not in base to base) get to attack with their full attacks.

This is step for step exactly what is happening to combat, with the steadfast rule stacked on top of it.

You don't want to know what happened to eldar close combat units in 5th edition.

And please, I understand that the games are very different.... but the design philosophy for both armies is the same. High initiative, devastating attacks on low toughness, bad armor save units. And the game is changing in very similar ways in terms of the combat phase.

My guess... High elves will survive by relying on the same thing that eldar relied on in the 5th ed change. Maneuverability, excellent shooting, and a few all star stand out units that are so good that they defy the nerfing they got.

Shep wrote:
My guess... High elves will survive by relying on the same thing that eldar relied on in the 5th ed change. Maneuverability, excellent shooting, and a few all star stand out units that are so good that they defy the nerfing they got.

Thats what they survive on now

I don't post on this forum much.. I do so mostly on Warseer and Ulthuan.net.. but here are some articles I wrote to help you guys on 8th Ed. High Elf changes.

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-lords-and-heroes.html
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-units.html
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-magic.html

Enjoy the read Princes

Hey HERO,

I read these articles that you copy-pasted on ulthuan.net. Some comments -

Princes - I'm still not convinced that they'll be terribly worthwhile outside of a Dragon build (which, I know, you were rating at 2k levels). They're still twice as expensive as a Noble and really only contribute a little more to battle than a Noble (though the Ld10 will be nice, I'm not convinced it's quite worth the points). The main advantage is his survivability since you've more options for armor (I so wish Vambraces of Defense were just 5 points cheaper). Also, I suspect the Ogreblade will be the "go-to" weapon for any High Elf Princes this edition (given our S4, that +2S bonus is huge).

BSBs - I think, given the fact that magic has apparently become devastating when successful, that a BSB will default to the Banner of the World Dragon in this edition. Gaining immunity to any/all spell effects is just going to be huge, and the benefits of the D6 CR is somewhat diminished given the new Steadfast rules for break tests (and considering the points costs of HE models, the opponent will more than likely benefit from the rule).

DPs - I can kind of see the appeal of running a 10+ strong unit of Dragon Princes...but given TLOS rules, that seems like a very dangerous prospect, especially if your opponent has lots of warmachines.

Think I'd rather un 10 silver helms TBH. Cheaper and do the same thing the DP's are supposed to do.

Cav is the new flank breaker in this edition, get it as cheaply as possible.

Eh...I'm still not sold on Silver Helms. Yes, they're better now that they get re-rolls against a lot of enemies, but they're still 7 points less for 50% less attacks and without the ability to take a magic standard.

At the very least, they benefit more from having a second rank than the DPs (DP's lose out on 1 attack) and don't compete for "slots" anymore. If they were 21 points with shields and no barding, I think they'd be a more popular choice but the lack of a Magic banner hurts them quite a bit.

excellent articles. I have decieded that once I get my 2nd box of silver helms painted, I will have to get a block of PG. I think in this edition they will one of the most used units in HE armies. Plus they look sweet.

Phoenix Guard are definitely the "winners" of the High Elf elite infantry. With I6, they'll be getting the re-roll benefits of ASF almost all the time, and that 4+ Ward save remains the best armor save of any HE troops.

@Jin

If you get this unit in the flank, and the flank only, they'll win and run off the opponent just about 100% of the time.

If your opponent doesn't have ranks, he doesn't have more ranks than you, and is therefore not stubborn. You could do 5 str 5 attacks and rock your opponents face off. You have 11 str 5 attacks and 10 str 3 attacks.

When compared in this metric, the DP's and the Silverhelms do the exact same job. Leaving the DP's at the disadvantage, because they cost so much more.

2nd rank of horses don't hit. Not a huge impact on the overall statistics, just pointing out.

I don't disagree with most of your points. Yes, both units share the same role in the army, and admittedly, with the Force Organization and ASF changes, Silverhelms became a much more viable and attractive option since they are no longer hampered by fighting for a Special Slot.

However, your argument is also somewhat disingenuous since a similarly sized unit of Dragon Princes would have 16 WS5, S5 attacks on the charge + horse attacks meaning they have ~50% more reliability for only about 33% more cost. Not to mention the fact that, as stated before, Dragon Princes can gain benefits from Magical Banners which can really propel them in usefulness. In the event that the enemy manages to hold anyways and you're stuck in subsequent rounds of combat, the Dragon Princes will definitely come out on top over the Silverhelms. The immunity to flaming attacks is a nice bonus.

Can the unit of Silverhelms usually get the job done? Probably. Assuming you're hitting on 4's against T4 (likely case), You'll get 8.25 hits (not going to include horses into the equation since their numbers are equal) and 5.5 wounds on the charge dealt out. Similar unit of Dragon Princes (let's say they're hitting on 4's to even things out) will get 12 hits and around 8 wounds. This is assuming the DP's aren't hitting WS4 or lower. For a little over 30% the price, you almost 50% increase in effectiveness.

Ultimately, the value of that point difference becomes an issue of personal opinion.

I can see a HE player using both. The Silverhelms being used to flank the softer blocks of infantry or going war machine hunting. The Dragon Princes would be used to take out some of the harder targets on the field.

HERO wrote:I don't post on this forum much.. I do so mostly on Warseer and Ulthuan.net.. but here are some articles I wrote to help you guys on 8th Ed. High Elf changes.

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-lords-and-heroes.html
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-units.html
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-magic.html

Enjoy the read Princes

Where is the list of the new items he talks about? One of them is the book of ashur or something like that.

Someone on Ulthuan.net posted up the list of new Common Magic items. Too lazy to hunt down the link at the moment, though.

Jin wrote:Hey HERO,

I read these articles that you copy-pasted on ulthuan.net. Some comments -

Princes - I'm still not convinced that they'll be terribly worthwhile outside of a Dragon build (which, I know, you were rating at 2k levels). They're still twice as expensive as a Noble and really only contribute a little more to battle than a Noble (though the Ld10 will be nice, I'm not convinced it's quite worth the points). The main advantage is his survivability since you've more options for armor (I so wish Vambraces of Defense were just 5 points cheaper). Also, I suspect the Ogreblade will be the "go-to" weapon for any High Elf Princes this edition (given our S4, that +2S bonus is huge).

BSBs - I think, given the fact that magic has apparently become devastating when successful, that a BSB will default to the Banner of the World Dragon in this edition. Gaining immunity to any/all spell effects is just going to be huge, and the benefits of the D6 CR is somewhat diminished given the new Steadfast rules for break tests (and considering the points costs of HE models, the opponent will more than likely benefit from the rule).

DPs - I can kind of see the appeal of running a 10+ strong unit of Dragon Princes...but given TLOS rules, that seems like a very dangerous prospect, especially if your opponent has lots of warmachines.

Hey man,

The BSB with the Banner of World Dragon is viable in this edition, but I think magic banners kind of went down this Ed. The reason why is because the BSB is such an important centerpiece in the army that you want him to stay alive. As you noticed on my BSBs, the armor configuration best optimizes his suvivability. This doesn't mean that things like the Banner Banner or BoWD is out, but just a lot more risky than before. That and the fact that you can't park a Noble on a Horse in a unit of Infantry and still benefit from the 2+ LOS! rule. It becomes 4+ now.

As for the DPs vs the Silverhelm discussion, I still think the Dragon Princes are better for 7 points more per model. +1 WS/A/I and Dragon Armor keeps them competitive imo. Especially since the first rank gets to attack and the back rank of riders get to poke through, the amount of the damage they can deliver on the charge is very worthwhile. Immunity to fire attacks keeps them safe against the likes of lore of fire and metal, and some light, and keeps them safe from Dwarven Cannons that take Rune of Burning.

If guns and warmachines bother you, I think its time to look into those new Ellyrion Reavers we should be getting in September. I'll be sure to give them a try since they can Vanguard move and threaten Warmachines from across the board on your first turn.

I'm writing up another Magic article today.. it's going to be on Death, Light and Beast lores. We all know what High Magic does for HE and I'm not going to get into Fire and Heavens. Heavens just doesn't put out enough damage and hexes/debuffs that I like, and the only thing good out of the Fire Lore is Flaming Swords. But then again, I'm competitive

Also i dont know if anyone noticed, but the BSB is worth 100 victory points+ whatever you spent on the magic banner.

So some BSB's could be worth upwards of 150 points.

@Shivan - didn't notice that. That could be dangerous .

@HERO -
Oh, I don't disagree with your points on the survivability of the BSB. Just commenting on your choice of suggesting a Battle Banner build in the article. Magic Standards are definitely a lot riskier now with the decreased safety of hiding in units and the aforementioned VPs for Banners, but I suppose that's a somewhat fair trade off to get some great buffs from Magic Banners.

Agreed on your points on the DPs. Given the nastiness of the new Lores, that Dragon Armor may be a life-saver.

Given that I never had success with the Reavers, I'm pretty anxious to give them a try (as well as getting the new models! ). Eagles should also have a bit of an easier time taking out warmachines as well, so they'll likely remain valid options.

Ragnar4 wrote:@Jin

If you get this unit in the flank, and the flank only, they'll win and run off the opponent just about 100% of the time.

If your opponent doesn't have ranks, he doesn't have more ranks than you, and is therefore not stubborn. You could do 5 str 5 attacks and rock your opponents face off. You have 11 str 5 attacks and 10 str 3 attacks.

When compared in this metric, the DP's and the Silverhelms do the exact same job. Leaving the DP's at the disadvantage, because they cost so much more.

From what I understand about the new rules, flank charge doesn't negate stubborn. It only negates the rank bonus to combat. So neither will probably break the opponent by themselves, but DPs put you in a much better position.

About LoFire, i dont see it being taken a lot in tournies.

Mainly due to the fact that if the army has immune to fire units or what not the lore is pretty useless.

Killjoy00 wrote:

Ragnar4 wrote:@Jin

If you get this unit in the flank, and the flank only, they'll win and run off the opponent just about 100% of the time.

If your opponent doesn't have ranks, he doesn't have more ranks than you, and is therefore not stubborn. You could do 5 str 5 attacks and rock your opponents face off. You have 11 str 5 attacks and 10 str 3 attacks.

When compared in this metric, the DP's and the Silverhelms do the exact same job. Leaving the DP's at the disadvantage, because they cost so much more.

From what I understand about the new rules, flank charge doesn't negate stubborn. It only negates the rank bonus to combat. So neither will probably break the opponent by themselves, but DPs put you in a much better position.

Gads! I had been told different by a buddy. Yeah if they don't crack stubborn then DP's have a better shot at it.

New article up, covering 4 more lores:

http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-magic-part-2_25.html

Since the standard sized game will be 3k, you'll still be able to have that Star Dragon-riding Lord.

eledamris wrote:Since the standard sized game will be 3k, you'll still be able to have that Star Dragon-riding Lord.

Proof of such claims?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyways, I posted another tactica:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-making-list.html

And another post on strategy:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2010/06/high-elves-in-8th-strategy.html

Anyone get a chance to try out Reavers in the new edition?

Waiting for the Battle box and plastic Reavers before I try

I'm not so sure they're worth it still. Sure, they get slight combat boosts, and that Vanguard move sounds nice....but it just doesn't seem like it's "enough" to overcome the crappy single S3 shots of their bows.

Jin wrote:I'm not so sure they're worth it still. Sure, they get slight combat boosts, and that Vanguard move sounds nice....but it just doesn't seem like it's "enough" to overcome the crappy single S3 shots of their bows.

You're focusing on the wrong stat here. M9 is the important one. Ability to move on the turn they rally if they fled from a charge is huge too. You're not paying one single point for their bows, you're paying a premium for a disruption unit.

Vanguard move with a wizard in the unit so you can get that unit on turn one to a flank, then use some direct line spells, or some 12 inch burst spells, or short lengh big boom spells. Also sounds... fun.

Fair enough points. Having no real prior experience running fast cav I'm still incredibly unsteady with regards to what they can do (I have seen DE Dark Riders wreak havoc, though, through shooting alone).

However, don't Fast Cav generally lose their Fast Cav status if a hero without the rule joins them? (Ergo no Vanguard?)

Ragnar4 wrote:

Jin wrote:I'm not so sure they're worth it still. Sure, they get slight combat boosts, and that Vanguard move sounds nice....but it just doesn't seem like it's "enough" to overcome the crappy single S3 shots of their bows.

You're focusing on the wrong stat here. M9 is the important one. Ability to move on the turn they rally if they fled from a charge is huge too. You're not paying one single point for their bows, you're paying a premium for a disruption unit.

Vanguard move with a wizard in the unit so you can get that unit on turn one to a flank, then use some direct line spells, or some 12 inch burst spells, or short lengh big boom spells. Also sounds... fun.

Another problem that arises, with free reform on a failed charge with a ld test and musician. Coupled with the fact that you can restrain charges on a ld test, Charge baiting with fast cavalry got a lot worse in 8th edition.

You want the lore of metal as high elves really... Give your lothern seaguard +1 to hit and armor piercing so you can shoot, stand and shoot then spear them all with -1 armor save. You can also cast plague of rust and transmutation of lead to give a unit a -2 armor save.. glimmering robes can give your entire army 5+ scaly skin as well

OR can cast the above on sword masters, phoenix guard or white lions and negate all saves basically

Lore of Beasts for the +2/+4T bonus is pretty ace as well.

Multiple mages for the various buffs will be pretty crucial, I think.

I have actually been planning on lore of death. As high elfs my army is most afraid of enemy chars and monsters and the lore of death offers me the best options of getting at them.

Stack on top of that the -1T -1S spell and it is a pretty awesome lore.