If you have tanks in a game, then your infantry need some protection from them, or APCs to keep up with your own tanks.
If you want armour-free games surely you can arrange those with your opponent?
If it's specifically Chimeras you don't like, build alternatives- there are plenty out there.
They're cheap, they're incredibly effective, AV12 front armor and six freakin' firing ports not to mention a multi-laser and usually a hull heavy flamer....
Yeah, there's no reason for IG *not* to take as many as they can cram in.
Dashofpepper wrote:They're cheap, they're incredibly effective, AV12 front armor and six freakin' firing ports not to mention a multi-laser and usually a hull heavy flamer....
Yeah, there's no reason for IG *not* to take as many as they can cram in.
Dashofpepper wrote:They're cheap, they're incredibly effective, AV12 front armor and six freakin' firing ports not to mention a multi-laser and usually a hull heavy flamer....
Yeah, there's no reason for IG *not* to take as many as they can cram in.
Dashofpepper wrote:They're cheap, they're incredibly effective, AV12 front armor and six freakin' firing ports not to mention a multi-laser and usually a hull heavy flamer....
Yeah, there's no reason for IG *not* to take as many as they can cram in.
Given the only transport alternative to Chimeras are Valkyries that float above most terrain at more than twice the cost, you can't blame people for using a few Chimeras to get around.
I've never had much of a problem. If you're going to hate on Chimeras, hate on Rhinos, Raiders, Trukks, Battlewagons, Land Raiders, Devilfish, Falcons, Wave Serpents...
Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ehh, chimeras and certain IG lists can be good, though you should feel sorry for them, chimeras burn a hole in anyones pocket.
Agreed, 50 AUD is quite alot. Didn't they used to be 40, or less?
I think most people are missing the sentiment of the OP. I'm pretty sick of the forced mechanization that this game is leaning towards. Anything that causes one type of gameplay versus wider variety of lists is bad imo. It gets bad when I basically take a combi-melta/melta gun/multi-melta/monstrous armor pen/etc on every single unit in my army and I still worry that I don't have enough to kill all of my opponents chimeras/leman russ/land raiders/rhinos.
I see the point (although its not just chimeras, every army is taking maximum transports, just you see a lot of IG I guess) but thats the way things roll - if one tactic/choice is objectively the strongest, people will take it. Trying playing games with people you know, based on the mutual agreement to take something different. If you walk into wherever it is you play, and ask if anyone there wants to play a game with limited numbers of tanks, that'd work right?
As for tournaments or blind pick-up games . . . guess you should wait until the next edition of the rules . . . (or play tyranids)
Transports make for much more dynamic games as they allow faster movement. Anyone who remembers the transition from 2nd to 3rd edition will remember what a huge shift it was. Even 4th edition became much more static when transports were hit too hard with the nerf stick. Personally I think the balance is about right now - rhino rush in 3rd was too good but the reaction in 4th was OTT.
Armies with good bikes (e.g. marines) or jump packers (e.g. blood angels) don't need transports. Everyone else wants at least some - even in a static gunline.
I agree that it is a shame that you to mechanise a lot of your force to have a chance.
On the other hand, i really like the look of my army when it all deploys in Rhinos and heads across the table at full pelt. Plus, for an IW army i think being mechanised is more fluffy anyway.
Brother SRM wrote:I've never had much of a problem. If you're going to hate on Chimeras, hate on Rhinos, Raiders, Trukks, Battlewagons, Land Raiders, Devilfish, Falcons, Wave Serpents...
One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong...
Trukks don't belong in the "good, reliable transport" category because they're essentially made from crackers and blow up when a strong breeze hits them
Trukks don't belong in the "good, reliable transport" category because they're essentially made from crackers and blow up when a strong breeze hits them
Maybe if chimeras counted at open-topped when using the fire ports it would be a bit less of a pain. I too struggle when confronted with my friend's chimera wall. It is just so ridiculously effective compared to every other army's transports.
No, I'm not sick of Chimera's. I'm not sick of mechanized lists either. It's a game about war. War has tanks. You build lists to fit the game your playing. If you know your going to be fighting tanks, we'll pack the anti-tank weapons. Field tanks yourself.
Not to mention, just how cool they look on the battlefield. Like 40k players, the more the merrier I say.
Long have I waited to hear of people calling Chimeras cheesy and hard to beat. As an old guard player, your tears are so sweet!
Guard were undoubtedly one of the weakest armies out there pre-fifth edition. I went from the fluffy guard player to power gamer overnight...
Having said that, I actually don't like chimeras because they represent the one aspect of fifth edition I hate. Spam. This is a game of spam. Spamming chimeras, spamming obliterators, spamming jump pack troops, spamming wave serpents, and the list goes on. It's no longer about tactics so much as it is about overwhelming your opponents in a certain area. It's like 40k has become a much more expensive version of rock paper scissors. Balanced lists at tournament get hosed because inevitably they fight an extreme army that they can't deal with. So when building a list, I at least, always pick an extreme to deal with. Usually mech spam.
I wish there were more competitive builds within most armies. Guard are one of the more extreme examples. It is just so blatantly obvious which army to choose with guard.
Long have I waited to hear of people calling Chimeras cheesy and hard to beat. As an old guard player, your tears are so sweet!
Guard were undoubtedly one of the weakest armies out there pre-fifth edition. I went from the fluffy guard player to power gamer overnight...
Having said that, I actually don't like chimeras because they represent the one aspect of fifth edition I hate. Spam. This is a game of spam. Spamming chimeras, spamming obliterators, spamming jump pack troops, spamming wave serpents, and the list goes on. It's no longer about tactics so much as it is about overwhelming your opponents in a certain area. It's like 40k has become a much more expensive version of rock paper scissors. Balanced lists at tournament get hosed because inevitably they fight an extreme army that they can't deal with. So when building a list, I at least, always pick an extreme to deal with. Usually mech spam.
I wish there were more competitive builds within most armies. Guard are one of the more extreme examples. It is just so blatantly obvious which army to choose with guard.
Frazzled wrote:Long have I waited to hear of people calling Chimeras cheesy and hard to beat. As an old guard player, your tears are so sweet!
This is so very, very true.
The funniest bit is that relatively few things changed to make people cry - it's just a "Buy 3 for the price of 2!" sale, relative to the older 'dexes.
Didn't they used to count as open-topped when guys fired out? Or am I making that up? Have they always been able to have 5 special or heavy weapons shoot out?
Kolath wrote:Didn't they used to count as open-topped when guys fired out? Or am I making that up? Have they always been able to have 5 special or heavy weapons shoot out?
They used to, if the contents had a save worse than 3+. The Inquisitorial ones still do.
They also used to have 1 or 2 (I can't Remember) "Real" Fire points and also had 6 Lasguns that could be used by the blokes inside.
Thanks, Gwar! Yeah that confirms my annoyance with the 5th ed chimeras. The ability to load a unit with 4x plasma or 4x meltaguns and have them all shoot out seems OP to me. If it was limited to 2 and/or there was some downside (other than not using orders) then maybe it would be a little more reasonable.
2. If the Chimera is Shaken or Stunned, the passengers cannot fire.
2. If the Chimera is Destroyed (Wrecked), then passengers bail and take a pinning test on their Imperial Guard leadership.
3. If the vehicle is Destroyed (Explodes), each Imperial Guardsman in the Chimera takes a S4 AP- hit, and they take the pinning test as well. If that's a five strong Company or Platoon Command Squad, expect 2.24 unsaved wounds, or two casualties. If that's a ten-strong squad of Infantry or Veterans, then expect 4.5 unsaved wounds or five casualties. In each case the squad is likely to take a Morale test as well as a pinning check. If they're under 50% of the squad's original size when they fail that test, they ain't coming back.
4. Once you crack the soft metal shell with shooting, you can charge the gooey bits inside.
Should imperial guard have solid competitive options that include lots of tanks? Of course, that is one of the big draws of the IG. The problem is that IG and many other 5th edition codexes are almost forced to mech. That shouldn't be the way this game works. We should have other options that are equally as competitive. I like the blood angels codex quite a bit because of their flexibility of choices. Unfortunately , this isn't the way most codexes are currently built.
Give us more options, make this game more varied and allow us to play the armies we want. Otherwise we might as well remove the other non-armor/non-armor-killing options and have more tanks/tank-killing options if that is what this game is gearing towards. I'm fine either way as long as I get a wider selection to choose from, instead of looking at my codex and cutting out half the entries and equipment options because they aren't viable. It isn't just the current meta either. The entire 5th edition rulebook and following codexes have been written to be geared towards armor values.
Variety is the spice of life and that spice is very rare atm.
Kid_Kyoto wrote:Yeah GW overpowered them (guess there was a new model coming huh).
The points and standard guns are fine, it's the 5 fire points that make it ridiculous. They should have kept it at 1 fire point + 3 las guns a side.
QFT. Just another vehicle that slipped through the cracks in playtesting. Ohh wait, what playtesting?
Oh I think they knew just what they were doing during play testing.
"Oy! We gots 'em new Kay-meras coming wot! Made 'em dead 'ard!"
Come back for the next codex when Valkyires and Chimeras will be useless but the new plastic Krieg will be god-like.
You mean like how everyone had 6 Carnifexes then they nerfed them so hard their Grannies went OW but suddenly Zoanthropes (which no-one had) suddenly became a "Must have 9" unit?
Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Ehh, chimeras and certain IG lists can be good, though you should feel sorry for them, chimeras burn a hole in anyones pocket.
Agreed, 50 AUD is quite alot. Didn't they used to be 40, or less?
Luckily I got into IG right before the Codex was released (but available to internet savvy folks) and bought my Chimera and Hellhound force for roughly 15$ a tank. And the Leman Russes were about 20$. Cleaning up other peoples' eBay models is a great way to deal with prices.
Most people I play with don't use mech lists because most of them don't like WAAC lists, but it pisses me off that Mech IG are suddenly everywhere when in the fluff they're hardly ten-a-penny.
Jervis complains about tournament gamers, but it's HISdev team that made 5th edition what it is.
Why are people hating on tanks? I love the balance between infantry and vehicles the current game has struck.
If you want to play with all infantry, play Cities of Death. If you want to play with all tanks, play Spearhead. If you want both, well, that's the balance we have now in 40K.
Cheese Elemental wrote:I'm sick of mechanised lists in general.
Most people I play with don't use mech lists because most of them don't like WAAC lists, but it pisses me off that Mech IG are suddenly everywhere when in the fluff they're hardly ten-a-penny.
Cheese Elemental wrote:I'm sick of mechanised lists in general.
Most people I play with don't use mech lists because most of them don't like WAAC lists, but it pisses me off that Mech IG are suddenly everywhere when in the fluff they're hardly ten-a-penny.
Do you know anything about the fluff at all?
QFT.
I don't really like the Chimera as a vehicle (I'd rather have the Rhino's AV11/11 to 12/10). I like what its done to the Imperial Guard though.
For clarification, I believe he is referring to the "Wall of Scales' as I so call it (get it...chimera...mythology...nevermind) as the opponent has around 8-10 of them side to side, where hitting side armour is pretty difficult.
Cheese Elemental wrote:I'm sick of mechanised lists in general.
Most people I play with don't use mech lists because most of them don't like WAAC lists, but it pisses me off that Mech IG are suddenly everywhere when in the fluff they're hardly ten-a-penny.
Do you know anything about the fluff at all?
You know what I mean. The archetype of the Imperial Guard is a mass of bodies. Why should this not be better represented in the game itself?
Frazzled wrote:Long have I waited to hear of people calling Chimeras cheesy and hard to beat. As an old guard player, your tears are so sweet!
QFT. I've been playing a Mechanized Guard list since they put it in the Armageddon book. I like finally having it pay off. It's like GW rewarded me for sticking with it.
Cheese Elemental wrote:I'm sick of mechanised lists in general.
Most people I play with don't use mech lists because most of them don't like WAAC lists, but it pisses me off that Mech IG are suddenly everywhere when in the fluff they're hardly ten-a-penny.
Do you know anything about the fluff at all?
You know what I mean. The archetype of the Imperial Guard is a mass of bodies. Why should this not be better represented in the game itself?
Last I checked you could fit 132 Models into a Single Troops Choice, with not a vehicle in sight. 147 Wounds for 880 Points.
Oh yeah, the Codex does a horrible job of representing the massed infantry IG army. </Sarcasm>
Cheese Elemental wrote:I'm sick of mechanised lists in general.
Most people I play with don't use mech lists because most of them don't like WAAC lists, but it pisses me off that Mech IG are suddenly everywhere when in the fluff they're hardly ten-a-penny.
Do you know anything about the fluff at all?
You know what I mean. The archetype of the Imperial Guard is a mass of bodies AND TANKS.
Fixed that for you. Whinging about how the game does not support your particular misinterpretation of the fluff is a pretty weak position to make an attempt to argue from.
Also, considering how silly it was that in 4th edition effective lists generally minimized transports because they were such weak death traps, the increased mobility and discouragement of game-long static lines more tanks encourage should be perfectly acceptable. If you want to do mass of bodies, what's stopping you? The 'leafblower' is the current flavor of the month sweeping the 'net, but I'd like to see how it'd do against a pure foot-slogging IG list.
Frazzled wrote:Long have I waited to hear of people calling Chimeras cheesy and hard to beat. As an old guard player, your tears are so sweet!
*goes into IG Preacher Mode*
My brothers, let me hear an AMEN!
Long have we suffered as our infantry is plagued by bolter and shuriken fire, but then the almight god emperor smiled upon us, and he said, Lo, and behold Metal Boxes! And we got down on our knees and praised Him for his mercy! And then we stood again, righteous fire gleaming in our eyes, and called down the fire from on high in our valkyries as we took shelter within! AMEN!
I think i agree with you i would love too see more traditional guard armies.
I mean imperial guard can have the most infantry out of any other race and i love the classic cadian armies with 100+ line troopers backed by Leman Russ and Basilisks.
And how is melta vet fluffy I can only see it being fluffy for catachan as they love melta and have lots of vet's. But even mech regiments like DKOK actually have normal people
But then again i would bet a good foot guard against a leaf blower list. Just the sheer amount of autocannons and lascannons and then the crazy barrages of las fire.
I'think balance is the best.... reading about this thread its true that chimeras are a bit OP, i'm that class of player that plays IG in a more traditional way lots of people backed un for a few leman russ, mixed with long range firing vets (i just glued vets with shotguns, so i still haven't used yet).... one question... if you make the "plasma barrage" from the open chimera..... does affect the overheating to the guys inside the vehicle? i suposse that yes, but maybe that's not clear...
Bookwrack wrote:
Also, considering how silly it was that in 4th edition effective lists generally minimized transports because they were such weak death traps, the increased mobility and discouragement of game-long static lines more tanks encourage should be perfectly acceptable. If you want to do mass of bodies, what's stopping you? The 'leafblower' is the current flavor of the month sweeping the 'net, but I'd like to see how it'd do against a pure foot-slogging IG list.
Hmm. Question: is part of the meching up craze that mechanized lists are seen as more convenient to play than horde lists, particularly within tournament time limits?
To a small extent, Backfire. I haven't got a full mechanised list but replace a few squads with a valkyrie and a couple of chimeras has meant that my games are normally properly finished in an evening now!
The most boring games I have played have been against non - boxed guard which take almost an hour to move and then they have to shoot. I love mech in all it's forms because there is nothing more funny than deepstriking Assault Marines with plasma pistols behind a line of chimeras and sucking on the gooey insides.
cosmic pixie wrote:The most boring games I have played have been against non - boxed guard which take almost an hour to move and then they have to shoot. I love mech in all it's forms because there is nothing more funny than deepstriking Assault Marines with plasma pistols behind a line of chimeras and sucking on the gooey insides.
Chimeras are just cans waiting to be opened.
100% true, but more than boring...annoying, even for the IG players are a fething hell JUST to deploy such quantities of infantry... and having that shooting rate its not rare that IG player forget to shoot something it happened me a lot...
I think there is definitely balance between Mech and Horde lists for IG and any other army. I am sure you can have an excellent and even match between an Armored Company and Gunline IG. What I think is important for Gunline is that they take Autocannons, because its one of the best heavy weapons they have.
Also, I'm surprised that you are not complaining about Valkyries/Vendettas and the potential for a full AirCav list, which I feel is stronger than the MechVet lists.
I've noticed that all the complants about the "Tin Can" or "Trooper Cooker" that is that most opposing players forget about them when writing up their lists. SM and CSM can throw up a wall of AV 11 Rhinos, AV 14 with Land Raiders. Now i'm not being critical here but are all the complants comming from SM players or some thing
Smashotron wrote:I think there is definitely balance between Mech and Horde lists for IG and any other army. I am sure you can have an excellent and even match between an Armored Company and Gunline IG. What I think is important for Gunline is that they take Autocannons, because its one of the best heavy weapons they have.
Also, I'm surprised that you are not complaining about Valkyries/Vendettas and the potential for a full AirCav list, which I feel is stronger than the MechVet lists.
No... it seems sweet, but i have seen how an AirCav works, and.... no, its more dangerous a MEC list, one of the worst things that you can do, no matter what kind of list you use, with the IG than scatter your forces, not to mention that the Chimera does not count as an unit in the table, meanwhile, Valks and "raged Sicilians" counts as fast attack choices, choices that, IMO are better taken profit if you deploy outflanking Sentinels or the new brand of Hellhound and their awesome variants.....
ChocolateGork wrote:But even mech regiments like DKOK actually have normal people
This made me laugh. I think you mean Armageddon Steel Legion. DKoK are normally thought of as Siege Guard with tons of infantry.
Except the Armageddon Steel Legion exclusively fields Armored Fist Platoons. Any foot infantry are PDF or Hive Militia--which aren't actually Steel Legion.
Mechanized sucks if you dont have a mechanized army..
All the happy people in this thread have them.. and the disgruntled do not.
I'd make a mech army but unfortunately its expensive and nearly all the GW vehicles look lame.. like the chimera.. valk is too big, rhino lol. The only vehicles that look cool to me are tau and eldar..
Also in my heart I am an infantry man.
I feel your pain OP the 5th ed damage table is too much.
What I ment was that, compared to how the other turret look, the autocannon one makes it look the most like an APC. ...
That and my local game club would drum me out of the club if I showed up with a SdKfz 251 that spilled IG across the map for the same reasons that I'm forbidden SdKfz 182 'Porche' style turrets on my Leman Russ Vanquishers. PzKpfw IV style armor skirting is however, an acceptable 'extra armor' upgrade.
ChocolateGork wrote:But even mech regiments like DKOK actually have normal people
This made me laugh. I think you mean Armageddon Steel Legion. DKoK are normally thought of as Siege Guard with tons of infantry.
Except the Armageddon Steel Legion exclusively fields Armored Fist Platoons. Any foot infantry are PDF or Hive Militia--which aren't actually Steel Legion.
Reading fail on your part, Kan. Original quote part I was responding about bolded and enlarged.
I played both Chimera heavy IG , and maxed out heavy weapon team IG.
I have to say having the option of leaving some infantry inside the Chimeras gives lots of needed room compared to if you leave them out... they clog up like 95% of deployment zone -_-
What you find is that the GW official models are very short and fat compared to real vehicles.
A 1/48 scale tank is the right length but too narrow. A 1/35 scale tank is the right width but too long.
I chose to use 1/35 vehicles they look the right size compared to the infantry figures -- even if they aren't -- and because there is a much better choice of kits available.
That said, there are some very nice 1/48 scale kits on the market and they are cheaper than 1/35. I don't think it would matter a lot as long as all the vehicles in the army were the same scale.
If you want to use aircraft kits, 1/48 is the best scale. Aircraft are so huge that a 1/35 scale kit will cover half the table. Also, the choice is much better in 1/48.
Ribon Fox wrote:I've noticed that all the complants about the "Tin Can" or "Trooper Cooker" that is that most opposing players forget about them when writing up their lists.
SM and CSM can throw up a wall of AV 11 Rhinos, AV 14 with Land Raiders.
Now i'm not being critical here but are all the complants comming from SM players or some thing
Not SM...DH here...so no...I cannot put up a wall of armor. (^_^)
Ribon Fox wrote:I've noticed that all the complants about the "Tin Can" or "Trooper Cooker" that is that most opposing players forget about them when writing up their lists.
SM and CSM can throw up a wall of AV 11 Rhinos, AV 14 with Land Raiders.
Now i'm not being critical here but are all the complants comming from SM players or some thing
QFT. This is the real reason you guys are upset, now that your precious Boltguns\Gauss Rifles\sluggas can't chew up infantry like you used to and you might have to field heavy weapons you're complaining that you have to put some thought into your lists.
I have three army lists for my Imperial Guard, all around a 1,000 - 1,200 points with the models I currently have. One is infantry based with a focus on Heavy Weapons and soon Sentinals for mobile support and I can tell you this is how you kill transport spam hands down. If you're a SM player then just build two Devastator Squads and work up two alternate lists. One list has the two Devastator Squads with extra bodies to soak up wounds, use this if you can:
1: Confidently establish a good field of fire for them.
2: Keep them reasonably protected.
3: Have about the same or close to number of SQUADS on the field as your opponent.
The third condition is key, the biggest weakness of Devastator Squads isn't their points. It's that you're pouring all of that firepower into one target at a time so it's important that you not get rushed by numbers.
The other list is a little more tricky, work your DS Marines into your Tac squads (I know! Different is scary!) this allows you to position your Heavy Weapons at multipule spots on the field increasing your chances of being positioned for a side armor shot, this also allows you to target more transports in a turn or open up on a squad that fell out of Chimera with Bolter and Frag Missle fire. You might not use these in half your games but when you're fighting a line of tin you'll be glad you have them ready.
GW site says that the Devastator Squad gives you 5 SMs and 8 HWs for $35 USD so the value looks like buying 1 or 2 Devastator Squads and pick up 1 Tactical Squad at the same price for more models and fewer extra HW laying around.
Look at that! for between $70-$105 USD I just ended your problem for most games between 1,000 and 1,500 points!
Two full dev squads with ML combat squaded will wreck most transports, their range also allows you to hit goey side armor. If you want to run an infantry army do it like that, and then have a crapload of plasma or flamers in your tacticals to deal with the spillage from the transports, plasma can also do light tank hunting ability if extra is needed.
AV 13 is gooy? Oh, wait, you mean on transports...
Eh, I'd be more concerned about that Leman Russ Executioner that's wiping out whole squads as it advances then what brand of Metal Boxes that the IG platoons are driving.
Smashotron wrote:I think there is definitely balance between Mech and Horde lists for IG and any other army. I am sure you can have an excellent and even match between an Armored Company and Gunline IG. What I think is important for Gunline is that they take Autocannons, because its one of the best heavy weapons they have.
Also, I'm surprised that you are not complaining about Valkyries/Vendettas and the potential for a full AirCav list, which I feel is stronger than the MechVet lists.
Unfortunately, in this case you are wrong. Air Cav is limited by the fact that you can only have three distinct units of them and an Air Cav list needs about six. So unlike a mechanized list that utilizes chimeras, which can overlap their sides and utilize cover to present a wall of AV12, the air cav transports are flying around in the open and are squadroned and there is half as many of them. So you're both much easier to destroy and can engage fewer targets in return.
Don't get me wrong, Vendettas are fantastic, but they are better off used non-squadroned and alongside more traditional mechanized elements.
Autocannons are available to all types of armies, be they gunline or mechanized. The best lists use a combination of both Veterans and Platoons. My mechanized (8 chimeras, 3 vendettas) 'Ard Boyz list has 9 autocannons.
I'm just not sure if 40K has the 'right' balance in terms of transports right now. I grant that they're much better and more sensible than they were in 4th, but the current trend of models just camping in transports leads me to believe that the pendulum has swung too far the other way.
Overall, I like the vehicle rules currently, they seem to be simple and work well (though I do lament my Big Shootas not being defensive weapons), but I also think transports tend to be a little too much a shield for the models inside. I realize that it's a game and no set of rules is going to be perfect, but honestly, if I've a bunch of Boyz riding round in the back of a Trukk and somebody turns a flame thrower onto them, I should lose some Boyz to it even if the Trukk doesn't blow up.
At the end of the day, it's this edition. I'm sure 6th will fix some things and unfix some other things, just like 5th.
Actually it's kind of interesting how the game changes when you need to suppress multiple small units in transports. Too many people concentrate their firepower like they would if they were shooting up infantry units that can be eroded. With multiple light-medium vehicles you should stop shooting as soon as you get a Shaken/Stunned result and move onto the next target.
It's actually easier to suppress a vehicle than it is to pin an infantry unit.
I think that the mobility that it provides large numbers of guardsmen throws people a bit. I think they expect lumbering masses of infantry and that tosses out some strategies.
You know how people hate to have to change plans or think.
MrGiggles wrote:I'm just not sure if 40K has the 'right' balance in terms of transports right now. I grant that they're much better and more sensible than they were in 4th, but the current trend of models just camping in transports leads me to believe that the pendulum has swung too far the other way.
About the only thing I'd consider changing about transports is making smoke give a 5+ cover save. And then I'd make the extra armor and dozer blade upgrades 5 points for all Imperial armies (and I guess the equivalent for Xenos, whatever).
It's the regular tanks that need more reform, as the current shooting limitations are brutal. There's a reason every codex has been introducing more ways to get around them (Power of the Machine Spirit, Lumbering Behemoth, Fast engines). Making the defensive weapons definition S5 is one way to do it, plus it would make heavy flamer sponsons usable. And speaking of sponsons, I think all tanks should have a rule that one sponson can fire at a different target than the rest of the tank.
... Lumbering Behemoth has been around long time, actually...
And I'd just like to see the Griffon able to fire and move again. The ability to fire and displace made it a lot more useful then the ability to reroll scatter for a barrage.
BaronIveagh wrote:I think that the mobility that it provides large numbers of guardsmen throws people a bit. I think they expect lumbering masses of infantry and that tosses out some strategies.
You know how people hate to have to change plans or think.
QFT. It's sad that opponents don't build and play their armies to suit us.
The Chimera is one of those things that is way undercosted and very unjustified. Multi Laser + Hvy Flamer on a 12/10/10 ( I bleieve are the stats ) with 10 tropps to transport for 55 points is undercosted then add in 5 fire points then it becomes grossly undercosted. Many can say its fluffy but then why does the models fire points all have las guns coming out of them and in all prior editions that was all that could shoot from them?
Now take the vehicle and look at some of the rule changes from past ediitons. No longer does a clipping of a blast template get full strength to prevent side by side armor columns. No longer can you block the access door to trap models inside and kill them all if the vehicles pops. Also if the vehicle is destroyed in HtH they are protected from consolidation assaults.
In the first half of 3rd Edition vehicles were given the ability to use Fire Points as they do now. Midway into 3rd edition mass new rules took place and Fire Points removed as they were deemed overpowered and not all races had them on their vehicles. This would be like bringing back old 3rd Edition Assault rules. All vehicles are considered to have assault ramps; Could move full distance, disembark, then move then assault then consolidate into another assault. Another way to look at it would be if Wave Serpents were only 65 points and had 5 fire points and I'am sure most Eldar would consider it fluffy. I'am sure the Devilfish for Tau would love to have fire points like a Chimera. Sternguard would love to have a 5 fire point rhino to roll in etc etc
Borris the Blade wrote: No longer can you block the access door to trap models inside and kill them all if the vehicles pops.
Except you can... Units that cannot disembark are destroyed. If a vehicle's doors are blocked and the vehicle is "wrecked" they may make an emergency disembarkation to deploy anywhere within 2" of the hull and not within 1" of enemy. If the enemy surrounds the vehicle, the passengers cannot deploy and are destroyed.
/On topic. For me the frustrating thing about chimera's compared to rhinos is the synergy of 3 special weapons using the fire port PLUS TWO vehicle weapons. Rhinos are nice, I enjoy them a lot. But, they only have two fire points and C:SM do not have the ability to field scoring units with 2+ special weapons that could actually be able to use those fire points. (Barring a one-shot combi-weapon or a Pedro sternguard list). If the C:SM want to have an actual gun on their transport they pay 5 points, lose the fire points and lose the ability to carry a full squad.
The Chimera just seems like a no-brainer unit. Why would an IG player ever not take a chimera? The fact that they are almost an automatic, unalloyed bonus for very few points screams undercosted or OP to me.
If I were to rewrite the rules I would probably do one or more of the following: (1) Increase cost to 60 or 65 pts; (2) Hull weapon costs more; (3) Two fire points for heavy or special weapons (rest have to be lasguns); (4) The chimera counts as open-topped if the passengers use the special weapon fire ports and have an armor save of 4+ or worse.
I’ve seen lots of armies going mech. Last week I read a (blood angels?) army list that was 9 dreds and one special charter. IG have always been squishy and I think the only way for them to keep any scoring units on the table is to can them.
Borris the Blade wrote: No longer can you block the access door to trap models inside and kill them all if the vehicles pops.
Except you can... Units that cannot disembark are destroyed. If a vehicle's doors are blocked and the vehicle is "wrecked" they may make an emergency disembarkation to deploy anywhere within 2" of the hull and not within 1" of enemy. If the enemy surrounds the vehicle, the passengers cannot deploy and are destroyed.
It's actually harder to pull that off then you'd think. Unless you're playing IG or Orks, most units don't have the manpower to totally surround a Chimera.
If I were to rewrite the rules I would probably do one or more of the following: (1) Increase cost to 60 or 65 pts; (2) Hull weapon costs more; (3) Two fire points for heavy or special weapons (rest have to be lasguns); (4) The chimera counts as open-topped if the passengers use the special weapon fire ports and have an armor save of 4+ or worse.
Wow, hate much?
Rhinos cost a *lot* less, and have a different role, due to having T4 Sv3+ models inside who can actually fight.
Guard are supposed to take Chimeras (and shoot), just as Marines are supposed to take Rhinos (and move), so the rules are designed to encourage that synergy.
For 60 pts, etc. blah-blah-blah, the Chimera will need to be AV12/11/10, and AV12/12/10 for 65+ pts.
The suggested changes are basically how Chimeras used to work: high basic cost and expensive hull weapons, 2 heavy/special fire points and lasguns, open-topped if using hatch, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The suggested changes are basically how Chimeras used to work: high basic cost and expensive hull weapons, 2 heavy/special fire points and lasguns, open-topped if using hatch, etc. ... and they sucked hardcore.
Why do chimeras get more hate then any other transport?
Rhinos < Chimeras is a crazy argument because they are designed to do two different things. One is suppose to protect squishy guardsmen, the other is supposed to make already tough marines more mobile.
It's like saying that a Land Raider is better than a Trukk because you can assault out of both of them but the Landraider has better weapons and armor.
Chimeras get more hate because they are an IG tank. People are simply not used to IG having good stuff or winning games. IG are always the punching-bag of choice for any codex showing off how badass it is, and in the past the rules pretty much reflected this.
And yes, admittedly they are extremely good as long as they are fielded en masse.
Terminus wrote:People are simply not used to IG having good stuff or winning games. IG are always the punching-bag of choice for any codex showing off how badass it is, and in the past the rules pretty much reflected this.
I played a lot of Drop Guard backed by Ordnance in 4E. They were awesomely effective, but not so typical of how GW typically portrays Guard...
Terminus wrote:And yes, admittedly they are extremely good as long as they are fielded en masse.
This, of course, holds for any decently-competitive unit.
Terminus wrote:Chimeras get more hate because they are an IG tank. People are simply not used to IG having good stuff or winning games. IG are always the punching-bag of choice for any codex showing off how badass it is, and in the past the rules pretty much reflected this.
And yes, admittedly they are extremely good as long as they are fielded en masse.
I contest this, as I have been brutally effective with IG for the last 2 editions. But then I also can't say anyone in my local club is bitching about chimeras, either. Vendetta's loaded with stormies hitting lightly defended objectives, yes. Chimeras, not so much.
Really without the orders special rule IG lose a lot of their value, so for a squad to still be effective you'll want to move them up with a PCS also in a chimera and you'll want to keep them other infantry kind of close to maximize the Command Squads effectivness now you're talking a Chimera for each squad you plan on moving up. At 55 points it's more like you're getting a price break for buying in bulk then you are getting a unit cheap.
Infantry are what I'm talking about, after the first turn blitz toward the objective I like to disembark in cover so that my infantry squad can fire all ten lasguns instead of just the five, I can use HW and my Chimera can target another group if I'm fighting other soft targets. For the infantry to be the most effective a PCS should be near by, and the more squads you deploy around him the more efficent the PCS becomes. So for the squad out of the Chimera to be at its best you're talking about a constant investment in Chimera APCs which is why the sort of low 55 pts cost is justifiable.
All 10 lasguns? Unfortunately, I guess as a way to compensate for FRFSRF, guard squads have fewer lasguns now. The Sgt doesn't have one, you lose another if you take a heavy weapon and a third if you fire that heavy weapon. Add the special weapon, and you only have six lasguns per squad.
What is the real value of a PCS as a commander? His orders are pretty situational, and the range makes things difficult. I rely on the CCSs for orders, personally. My PCS tends to range out on their own with 4 flamers, occasionally using Incoming to camp out on an objective.
ductvader wrote:Anyone else sick of these stupid things lately?
The leafblower is sweeping the game and changing it into a tank fight.
I have nothing against Guard and it's even cool to see lists full of different Russes, but Chimeras are flavorless boxes.
METAL BOXES! MULTILASERS!
I also dislike the Chimera, but not because of what it does. I just hate how it looks. I hate those built in lasguns sprouting from the sides like tentacles. They look awful.
Ouze wrote:I also dislike the Chimera, but not because of what it does. I just hate how it looks. I hate those built in lasguns sprouting from the sides like tentacles. They look awful.
That is why, as a modeler, one's first task is to *remove* the Lasguns!
I Agree that they are effective but i think its a bit sad how its getting to the point where there is very little originality in guard lists especially mech.
... well, consider how long we had Tau fish of fury or all eldar escort lists over in BFG...
Void Stalkers seem to be much more of a staple in the eldar lists I've fought
You should thank the God Emperor your opponents haven't hit you with the all hemlocks list. I play IN and Chaos, and even with A boats and bombers, they can be a pain in the ass. Mostly because they come in bulk. However, this is totally OT.
tldr wrote:Can I put a heavy weapon squad inside and shoot from the top? I am a bit foggy on the details of what I can shoot out.
You can shoot anything you want. That can be, for example:
An Autocannon
An Autocannon and 4 Lasguns
An Autocannon, a Lascannon and a Mortar.
5 Plasmaguns
tldr wrote:Can I put a heavy weapon squad inside and shoot from the top? I am a bit foggy on the details of what I can shoot out.
You can shoot anything you want. That can be, for example:
An Autocannon
An Autocannon and 4 Lasguns
An Autocannon, a Lascannon and a Mortar.
5 Plasmaguns
Nope, as far as heavy weapons are concerned You are not allowed to fire heavy weapons within the transport.
As stated in the rule book, page 67
page 67
Models firing from a Vehicle count as moving if a vehichle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehichle moved at cruising speed that turn.
Page 29
If a unit moves then it cannot shoot heavy weapons - they either move or shoot but not both.
tldr wrote:Can I put a heavy weapon squad inside and shoot from the top? I am a bit foggy on the details of what I can shoot out.
You can shoot anything you want. That can be, for example:
An Autocannon
An Autocannon and 4 Lasguns
An Autocannon, a Lascannon and a Mortar.
5 Plasmaguns
Nope, as far as heavy weapons are concerned You are not allowed to fire heavy weapons within the transport.
As stated in the rule book, page 67
page 67
Models firing from a Vehicle count as moving if a vehichle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehichle moved at cruising speed that turn.
Page 29
If a unit moves then it cannot shoot heavy weapons - they either move or shoot but not both.
Huh?
HW can be fired. If the transport moves than the squad counts as moving and the HW can't be fired as I've already pointed out. Are you saying they can't be fired at all? If so, sorry, my vote is your wrong.
IIRC: heavy weapons can't be fired by a moving vehicle unless A) it has a special rule (see leman russ) or B)
the weapon is counted as a defensive weapon.
tldr wrote:Can I put a heavy weapon squad inside and shoot from the top? I am a bit foggy on the details of what I can shoot out.
You can shoot anything you want. That can be, for example:
An Autocannon
An Autocannon and 4 Lasguns
An Autocannon, a Lascannon and a Mortar.
5 Plasmaguns
Nope, as far as heavy weapons are concerned You are not allowed to fire heavy weapons within the transport.
As stated in the rule book, page 67
page 67
Models firing from a Vehicle count as moving if a vehichle moves, and may not fire at all if the vehichle moved at cruising speed that turn.
Page 29
If a unit moves then it cannot shoot heavy weapons - they either move or shoot but not both.
Huh?
HW can be fired. If the transport moves than the squad counts as moving and the HW can't be fired as I've already pointed out. Are you saying they can't be fired at all? If so, sorry, my vote is your wrong.
Sorry, I wasn't implying that you couldn't at all, unfortunately we apparently typed our responses at exactly the same time. I just know that some places (like places I play at, the jerks) just plain say you can't.
My question has always been: do the passenger's weapons count as defensive weapons if they meet the other criteria? The rules don't seem to say.
BTW: if Creed really said: "Though our tanks and artillery are mighty, it is the vast ranks of Imperial Guardsmen that shall trample the enemy to dust - let them come." he's very clearly NOT a 'tactical genius'.
Byte wrote:BRB page 66. Fire points: Riders cannot fire at all at cruising speed.
Yes, but what about at Combat Speed? EX: I move at combat speed, and my infantry has a (theoretical) heavy weapon with a str of 4 or less. Would it count as a defensive weapon, and thus be able to fire regardless of the infantry counting as having moved, or not?
Byte wrote:BRB page 66. Fire points: Riders cannot fire at all at cruising speed.
Yes, but what about at Combat Speed? EX: I move at combat speed, and my infantry has a (theoretical) heavy weapon with a str of 4 or less. Would it count as a defensive weapon, and thus be able to fire regardless of the infantry counting as having moved, or not?
??? No. The unit is the one firing the weapon, not the vehicle.
The embarked unit could fire Rapid Fire weapons as if they had moved, and the Assault Weapons they had available, but since they would count as moving when the transport moved, they would not be able to fire Heavy Weapons.
The embarked squad's Heavy Weapon is not the vehicle's weapon and does not count towards that vehicle's compliment of weaponry for the purposes of shooting.
BaronIveagh wrote:IIRC: heavy weapons can't be fired by a moving vehicle unless A) it has a special rule (see leman russ) or B)
the weapon is counted as a defensive weapon.
Oh, that's where your problem is. The passengers are not part of the vehicle and their shooting is not included in the vehicle's shooting. They shoot using the rules for infantry. Defensive and main weapons are part of the rules for vehicles shooting, and the passengers are not a vehicle. Heavy and assault don't matter at all to vehicles, it's just the strength value that determines if a weapon is main or defensive. The exact rules for what weapons you can fire at various speeds of movement are found somewhere in the vehicle rules of the main rulebook. For the passengers, there is no such thing as a main or defensive weapon. If the weapon is heavy it can not be fired if the unit moved or counts as moving, such as if they are embarked in a moving transport. Furthermore, the embarked unit can not shoot at all if the vehicle moved more than 6".
No, Ersatz Alexander the Great said soemthing about crushing things with tanks. Which is a better idea. (Ideally, it's bombs, then artillery, then tanks backed up by the dogfaces.)
Anyway, yes you could embark a heavy weapons squad in a chimera and fire all three out of the fire point as long as you stay stationary. However, heavy weapons squads can not buy Chimeras for themselves. Chimeras are only available as dedicated transports for other units, so the heavy weapons squad could not start the game embarked in one. They would have to spend a turn embarking, and in that turn they would count as moving and be unable to shoot. This isn't a terribly common tactic.
I can only see it being fluffy for catachan as they love melta and have lots of vet's. But even mech regiments like 