What is the IG Leaf blower list?????

In 2500 points, your enemy is likely to be crammed into their deployment zone.

In 2500 points, IG can take a lot of long range anti tank and blast weapons.

If you go first with 2500 points of long range anti tank blast IG, you can cripple the enemy army without much difficulty.

The Leaf Blower became "internet famous" because the person using it at Ard Boyz went first every game and won.

If the Leaf Blower does not go first, it is vastly less effective.

thank you

ph34r wrote:If the Leaf Blower does not go first, it is vastly less effective.

It can still win, though, just takes skill.

Head over to BoLS and look it up there. Its a nasty, nasty list.

Here is all the information you need.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/09/40k-ard-boys-armylist-leafblower.html

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

ph34r wrote:If the Leaf Blower does not go first, it is vastly less effective.

It can still win, though, just takes skill.

Head over to BoLS and look it up there. Its a nasty, nasty list.

Indeed, IG mech is overall good, especially at 2500. But it is a lot worse if it doesn't go first.

ph34r wrote:

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

ph34r wrote:If the Leaf Blower does not go first, it is vastly less effective.

It can still win, though, just takes skill.

Head over to BoLS and look it up there. Its a nasty, nasty list.

Indeed, IG mech is overall good, especially at 2500. But it is a lot worse if it doesn't go first.

Yea, but still rock hard.

...but I am very biased, so just ignore me.

Unless codexes are value balanced, a higher point limit allows a greater amount of imbalance.

ph34r wrote:In 2500 points, your enemy is likely to be crammed into their deployment zone.

In 2500 points, IG can take a lot of long range anti tank and blast weapons.

If you go first with 2500 points of long range anti tank blast IG, you can cripple the enemy army without much difficulty.

The Leaf Blower became "internet famous" because the person using it at Ard Boyz went first every game and won.

If the Leaf Blower does not go first, it is vastly less effective.

Going first does not matter for this list. Sorry and I didn't go first in every game at ard boys or every game in Gladiator.

ph34r wrote:

The Leaf Blower became "internet famous" because the person using it at Ard Boyz went first every game and won.

And gladiator...
And adepticon Champs...(except the infamous filmed last round)

It doesnt really need to go first but it sure helps to get first turn in like 10/11 of your games not including the semis.

Nick I have often heard you went first every game in the Ard Boyz last year.

G

This list would get eaten alive by a drop pod list IF IG could not take the unbalanced Inquisitor with two mystics. It's all about putting the hurt on before the range gap closes. A fast army that goes first has a better chance than most, but until the Inq/mystics combo is changed then IG will be #1 overall.

Darkwynn wrote:

Going first does not matter for this list. Sorry and I didn't go first in every game at ard boys or every game in Gladiator.

Didn't you explain in your BoLS blog that you went first in every game at Hard Boyz?

his list would get eaten alive by a drop pod list IF IG could not take the unbalanced Inquisitor with two mystics.

Drop pods aren't *that* effective. They are nice and useful, but keep in mind it also keeps those units hamstrung in perfect rapid fire/template/assault weapon range, often with little or no cover, and typically bunched up deliciously for blast weapons. I haven't found DP's to really be the bane of my IG, rather huge numbers of tac squads/GH's/etc in rhino's, with maybe a couple pods delivering dreads.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Nick I have often heard you went first every game in the Ard Boyz last year.

G

only went first in my last three games at finals. That was it otherwise I didn't go first at all.

in Championships I didn't go first any of the games even with the tarot and same with gladiator. People just like to assume.

yes, I said last round of Ard Boys I went first and it was great but to say the list needs to go first to win is just ignorance.

Darkwynn wrote:Going first does not matter for this list. Sorry and I didn't go first in every game at ard boys or every game in Gladiator.

From what I've seen of your list, going first is just a bonus. There's enough mobile, versatile firepower to move around if you take a first-turn whomping from a Tau Railgun-heavy army or another alpha-strike list.

I'd love to fight against a list like this with my Ninja Tau, eight-Railgin XV8-heavy list. I think you'd win, but I think I'd give a pretty good fight...

Darkwynn wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Nick I have often heard you went first every game in the Ard Boyz last year.

G

only went first in my last three games at finals. That was it otherwise I didn't go first at all.

in Championships I didn't go first any of the games even with the tarot and same with gladiator. People just like to assume.

yes, I said last round of Ard Boys I went first and it was great but to say the list needs to go first to win is just ignorance.

It is, however, also ignorance to say that the list can't be beaten, or is broken/overpowered, or destroys the game, or is the "best" list out there, etc.

Not that YOU'VE said that (<3), but the # of people out there proliferating such absurdity is overwhelming at times.

It's a good list, it can take all comers, it needs a good general at the helm. Darkwynn is a good general, his list is just a list.

I'd assume that the only real defense would be to spread out as best you can. I think that the outflanking baal and perhaps (I said PERHAPS!) scatter laser walkers would be the most effective way of neutralizing this short of tragically bad rolling on the IG players part.

I'm sure I'll fight it with my SW's so my only defense is to go as far as I can as fast as I can.

IT is not invincible, but it is extremely frustrating to play against and overall doesn't make 40K very fun.

I typically, in a 3 game tournament, will have to face this list at least once if not twice, since it is so popular. I am willing to bet you will see it at ard boys in droves this year.

The way around it is to outflank. The double mystic is nice, but for the most part, people are playing it wrong. The IG players want to interpret the rule as to where the mystics allow thier tanks to blast you out of the sky.

But in reality, they have to have LOS on whatever they choose to shoot you with. The best thing you can do is deep strike next to something that will block LOS and hope for the best.

I find that outflanking genestealers can really wreak havoc on this army.

Funny how things change... errrrmmm... how our memory often plays tricks on us...

G

LucasLAD wrote:I'd assume that the only real defense would be to spread out as best you can. I think that the outflanking baal and perhaps (I said PERHAPS!) scatter laser walkers would be the most effective way of neutralizing this short of tragically bad rolling on the IG players part.

I'm sure I'll fight it with my SW's so my only defense is to go as far as I can as fast as I can.

I'm not a /pro/ at this, but from what i understand, here's your problem.

If you are playing 2500 on a 6x4 board, you really can't spread out much
if you reserve the whole army, your opponent is only fighting a fraction of it at the same time with his /entire/ army

drop pods, stormravens, ect. seem like the way to do the job, until you realize that when they get out of the transport they are one S10AP2 blast away from being obliterated. unless they ran from the transport to spread out, and then you'd need

real solution: large amount of outflankers Blood angels+GK with scout/outflanking storm ravens /might/ get the job done. as terrible as they are, vanguard vets may be able to deep strike and multi assault a group of vehicles and pop a good number of long range firepower too (but will unlikely pay for themselves)

if the GK codex is coming next it'll probably undo the mystic thing and make the list vulnerable to deep strikers

gannam wrote:

I find that outflanking genestealers can really wreak havoc on this army.

That's why there's an officer of the Fleet to delay reserves and force opponents to reroll what side they come in on, in addition to lots of hull mounted heavy flamers on tanks

The army is not invincible, and could very well be made even scarier, but it's not something most 40k players have any experience with and mechanized IG in general are at such an extreme in terms of playstyle from most other armies that countering them is difficult. What do you do when an enemy has more tanks and dudes than you, more heavy weapons than you have models, and all your killy CC stuff is wasted points because it's so overkill and you end up hamstrung in front of the guns all too often. There are definite ways of beating mechanized Imperial Guard, but they are radically different from the tactics that work so well against armies like SM and Eldar with half as many vehicles that usually like to be in close range firefights and assaults with the need for heavy CC equipment that is just wasted against IG armies.

Vaktathi wrote:

gannam wrote:

I find that outflanking genestealers can really wreak havoc on this army.

That's why there's an officer of the Fleet to delay reserves and force opponents to reroll what side they come in on, in addition to lots of hull mounted heavy flamers on tanks

I'm not being a defeatist or intentionally being a prick but why would I even attempt to play a game against this list then? In every thread that has mentioned the Leafblower list someone has posted a counter, then anywhere from 5 to 1029301293012930912 people post why that won't work and all the counters.

I'd like to see a viable counter to this list other than, "Oh it can be beaten, it's just hard."

The thing that can do well against this list is just a rhino rush if played smart and driving enough bodies down the throat. Its risky and its hard but it can be done. It will be a close game in most situations.

Other counter would be Blood angels deep striking 4 land raiders...

Outflankers and most deep striking armies won't affect it because army reserves and you really have nothing you can do. I works with the Land raiders because you can deploy them in the middle of the board and you are at the lines already.


You can come up with counters but the problem is those counter list have a hard time defeating a lot of other things.

Other reason why people fail or think its easy to beat is that they clump up and create a parking lot in their deployment zone which hurts you more then anything.

When someone hits your lines and they can assault multiple tanks you will just die. You need room to create a break out and move away. One reason why out flankers don't work because you will be separated out from the force.

I'm not being a defeatist or intentionally being a prick but why would I even attempt to play a game against this list then? In every thread that has mentioned the Leafblower list someone has posted a counter, then anywhere from 5 to 1029301293012930912 people post why that won't work and all the counters.

I'd like to see a viable counter to this list other than, "Oh it can be beaten, it's just hard."

With nids? Personally, I don't know. In my 8 or so games against the new book so far with mechanized IG and Chaos Space Marines, I've massacred them every time, my first two games I didn't even take so much as a single glancing hit or lose a single guardsmen. New nids seem to be really awkward.

Darkwynn wrote:The thing that can do well against this list is just a rhino rush if played smart and driving enough bodies down the throat. Its risky and its hard but it can be done. It will be a close game in most situations.

This. Personally, I can't think of anything that scares my mech IG armies more than 8 rhinos driving forward full of marines. It's one thing to deal with big scary things that go down to a couple meltas or a couple units worth of rapid fire plasma guns or a battlecannon shot, it's another to deal with a huge horde of dudes, each of which can potentially kill any unit in my army.

Loving the fact the idea of skill is tossed around this thread.

Maybe they are referring to their google skills to find the list to copy?

Vaktathi wrote:

I'm not being a defeatist or intentionally being a prick but why would I even attempt to play a game against this list then? In every thread that has mentioned the Leafblower list someone has posted a counter, then anywhere from 5 to 1029301293012930912 people post why that won't work and all the counters.

I'd like to see a viable counter to this list other than, "Oh it can be beaten, it's just hard."

With nids? Personally, I don't know. In my 8 or so games against the new book so far with mechanized IG and Chaos Space Marines, I've massacred them every time, my first two games I didn't even take so much as a single glancing hit or lose a single guardsmen. New nids seem to be really awkward.

Nids don't really have much they can do against Guard. With so much shooting and no Armour to really block or ignore even the smallest shots its hard for them to deal with. Think the list of nids that would do great against IG is three trygons or a decent list of deep strikers that can overload a flank deploy away from plasam guns and push through the side. You need to overload the shooting to where they can't break you down.

As I understand it Darkwynn is the player on BoLS (don't know his screen name there) who invented the list and used it last summer. So he did not just copy it.

If you read his articles on the list on BoLS, after using it for one event he gave it up because it was too strong against too many opponents to make the game fun for them.

Which is a very mature attitude IMO.

As for there being plenty of ways to beat it, I am not a great player so I don't know. I will say that being the list is nearly a year old, people have had time and a couple of new codexes to come up with counters.

Most new codexes contain one or two strong extreme builds which are quickly spotted by good players and have a couple of months supremacy before people work out how to deal with them.

The strength of any list must be judged in view of its all-round ability not just its ability to counter one particular opposing list.

Also the dynamic of the game changes radically depending on the points level. This list depends partly on there being a target rich environment in order to maximise the utility of its blast weapons.

I played against it and he wiped out half of my army first turn.

I play Grey Knights...I took a Melta Torpedo Strike.

Chimeras started dying quickly.

It was fun.

Tie game.

Kilkrazy wrote:As I understand it Darkwynn is the player on BoLS (don't know his screen name there) who invented the list and used it last summer. So he did not just copy it.

If you read his articles on the list on BoLS, after using it for one event he gave it up because it was too strong against too many opponents to make the game fun for them.

Which is a very mature attitude IMO.

I understand he invented the list and I give him mad props for doing what he did but I was talking about all the others that have been copying it.

I read the article and honestly it sounds very pretentious and he stated he was going to use it for one more tournament. But that's whatever my hopes are that GW remakes the Witchunters and Deamonhunters Codex and removes the allies crap. If you want Allies, play a team games IMO

General_Chaos wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:As I understand it Darkwynn is the player on BoLS (don't know his screen name there) who invented the list and used it last summer. So he did not just copy it.

If you read his articles on the list on BoLS, after using it for one event he gave it up because it was too strong against too many opponents to make the game fun for them.

Which is a very mature attitude IMO.

I understand he invented the list and I give him mad props for doing what he did but I was talking about all the others that have been copying it.

I read the article and honestly it sounds very pretentious and he stated he was going to use it for one more tournament. But that's whatever my hopes are that GW remakes the Witchunters and Deamonhunters Codex and removes the allies crap. If you want Allies, play a team games IMO

Indeed...it's sad to see all these guard list with a single inquisitor, two mystics, and an old school psychic hood. They have a decently working codex as it is. I sincerely hope Grey Knights are their own codex with the possible exception of accepting SoB.

My issue with the list is how imperial guard works.. They remind me a lot of WFB chaos demons in that yes they can be beaten but it takes an arm and a leg to do so

Every disadvantage they have there is a way in their book to get rid of said disadvantage.. In IGs case as others have said, mostly due to stupid allies

The more I play against IG the more it feels like the codex was written by an IG fanboy who HAD to have a counter to everything that kills IG

ductvader wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:As I understand it Darkwynn is the player on BoLS (don't know his screen name there) who invented the list and used it last summer. So he did not just copy it.

If you read his articles on the list on BoLS, after using it for one event he gave it up because it was too strong against too many opponents to make the game fun for them.

Which is a very mature attitude IMO.

I understand he invented the list and I give him mad props for doing what he did but I was talking about all the others that have been copying it.

I read the article and honestly it sounds very pretentious and he stated he was going to use it for one more tournament. But that's whatever my hopes are that GW remakes the Witchunters and Deamonhunters Codex and removes the allies crap. If you want Allies, play a team games IMO

Indeed...it's sad to see all these guard list with a single inquisitor, two mystics, and an old school psychic hood. They have a decently working codex as it is. I sincerely hope Grey Knights are their own codex with the possible exception of accepting SoB.

I dropped the inquisitor in the championship game and in the gladiator game I just ran him without hoods. Honestly after playing the list for awhile he wasn't useful expect for a hood if I needed one. Otherwise You can drop him and if you are playing deep strikers just reserve off the board.

Darkwynn wrote:
I dropped the inquisitor in the championship game and in the gladiator game I just ran him without hoods. Honestly after playing the list for awhile he wasn't useful expect for a hood if I needed one. Otherwise You can drop him and if you are playing deep strikers just reserve off the board.

I've found that the hood seems to especially helpful against Tyranids and Eldar...other than that...sometimes I never use it in a game.

The only things that can beat a "Leafblower" list run by a good general such as Darkwynn are:

1. Another leafblower going 1st

2. A hard as nails list run by a good general with a ton of luck. For example: A blood angels list that had 2-4 blood lances drop poding/deep striking & not getting mystic shots thrown at them, then able to get off a couple blood lances and roll well enough to cripple about half of the leafblower tanks.

MVBrandt wrote:

Darkwynn wrote:

Black Blow Fly wrote:Nick I have often heard you went first every game in the Ard Boyz last year.

G

only went first in my last three games at finals. That was it otherwise I didn't go first at all.

in Championships I didn't go first any of the games even with the tarot and same with gladiator. People just like to assume.

yes, I said last round of Ard Boys I went first and it was great but to say the list needs to go first to win is just ignorance.

It is, however, also ignorance to say that the list can't be beaten, or is broken/overpowered, or destroys the game, or is the "best" list out there, etc.

Not that YOU'VE said that (<3), but the # of people out there proliferating such absurdity is overwhelming at times.

It's a good list, it can take all comers, it needs a good general at the helm. Darkwynn is a good general, his list is just a list.

That being said MVBI do think the list hedges a lot of counters against it and does make the game unfun. When Jon Wolf and I came up with the list it was built with other codexs in mind. I think you can give some creditability about changing the game balance or being overpowered. Because a lot of people are truely not having fun when they play that type of list.

now that being said people often confuse the leaf blower with Mech guard and call Mech guard a leafblower list. It isn't the case and I think that is where a lot of peoples comments are coming from. Honestly I think the IG codex is 10% under priced point wise and the chimera should have been brought up to 65 or 75 points for what it does.

Now when in 9 months and other armies come out we will see where other list stands but I don't see any super list coming out on top any time soon because counters to this list have a hard time against other list.

Just my 2 cents. .. T minus till the internet blows up now.

I like the "Allies" options as they add flavor and also interesting 'count as' opportunities BUT, having said that, they are prone to abuse.

There's got to be some middle ground, right?

It all boils down to what dark and others have said. It's not that the leaf blower is uber powerful, it's that guard have a counter for everything and can put it on the board all at once. The only thing that's going to beat down this list is a new codex with a bit more gumption, which is going to cause a disgusting power jump. I also agree everything is about 10-15% underpriced.

Example - I pin a unit of melta vets due to an exploding vendetta, move in Ragnar for the next round kill. Opponent uses, "Get back in the Fight" and boom 4 melta shots in the face.

This Ard boyz I'm simply building a list that can HOPEFULLY deal with leaf blower:

2 Living Lightning RP
5 Lascannon Razorbacks
15 Missile Launcher Long Fangs
Scout Squads

LucasLAD wrote:It all boils down to what dark and others have said. It's not that the leaf blower is uber powerful, it's that guard have a counter for everything and can put it on the board all at once. The only thing that's going to beat down this list is a new codex with a bit more gumption, which is going to cause a disgusting power jump. I also agree everything is about 10-15% underpriced.

Example - I pin a unit of melta vets due to an exploding vendetta, move in Ragnar for the next round kill. Opponent uses, "Get back in the Fight" and boom 4 melta shots in the face.

This Ard boyz I'm simply building a list that can HOPEFULLY deal with leaf blower:

2 Living Lightning RP
5 Lascannon Razorbacks
15 Missile Launcher Long Fangs
Scout Squads

I would stay away from the razorbacks to be honest. The AV 11 is very easy to pop with chimeras on the other side and other IG units. It will be tough but I don't think razorback spam is the way to go. On Blood Angels you might be able to get away with it but even still I don't tihnk its worth it. you are better off running rhinos and getting the 18 inch move to get there. The other issue I see space wolves having is ld 8 and multiple tank shocks are not fun for the mto deal with. A smart guard player will play aggressive against Space wolves which throws them on the defensive and can be very hard to handle.

Now you can prepare yourself for that but expect that to happen to you if you are playing a good general imo. Personal I would do 4 RP with living lighting, run the long fangs, get as many wolves as you can with a lord and some cybor wolfs and run those 15 size wolf units cross the board. Wolves are one of the best deliver ablative wounds for Space wolves that very few people notice.

Darkwynn wrote:

LucasLAD wrote:It all boils down to what dark and others have said. It's not that the leaf blower is uber powerful, it's that guard have a counter for everything and can put it on the board all at once. The only thing that's going to beat down this list is a new codex with a bit more gumption, which is going to cause a disgusting power jump. I also agree everything is about 10-15% underpriced.

Example - I pin a unit of melta vets due to an exploding vendetta, move in Ragnar for the next round kill. Opponent uses, "Get back in the Fight" and boom 4 melta shots in the face.

This Ard boyz I'm simply building a list that can HOPEFULLY deal with leaf blower:

2 Living Lightning RP
5 Lascannon Razorbacks
15 Missile Launcher Long Fangs
Scout Squads

I would stay away from the razorbacks to be honest. The AV 11 is very easy to pop with chimeras on the other side and other IG units. It will be tough but I don't think razorback spam is the way to go. On Blood Angels you might be able to get away with it but even still I don't tihnk its worth it. you are better off running rhinos and getting the 18 inch move to get there. The other issue I see space wolves having is ld 8 and multiple tank shocks are not fun for the mto deal with. I smart guard player will play aggressive against Space wolves which throws them on the defensive and can be very hard to handle.

Now you can prepare yourself for that but expect that to happen to you if you are paying a good general imo. Personal I would do 4 RP with living lighting, run the long fangs, get as many wolves as oyu can with a lord and some cybor wolfs and run those 15 size wolf units cross the board. Wolves are one of the best deliver ablative wounds for Space wolves that very few people notice.

I was just doing my dedicated AT the entire list is:
2 TWL FW/SS TH/SS Warrior/Bear
2 RP
3 WG w/pfist&cmelta
3 Rhinos
5 Razorbacks las/plas
15 Fen Wolves
Scout Squad
3x6 Longfangs w/5xML each

I'll see how this does it's already been deemed cheesy at the local level.

Alpharius wrote:I like the "Allies" options as they add flavor and also interesting 'count as' opportunities BUT, having said that, they are prone to abuse.

There's got to be some middle ground, right?

Yeah the middle ground is not having them be from 3rd edition..

The Leafblower is NOT invincible, it is a good list, no doubt, but it is by no means unbeatable.

If you play in tournaments you will come across it fairly often as it, and Wolves, are so popular right now.

There are ways around it, you just have to be creative.

Don't let a list intimidate you before you even play the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Darkwyn
The one problem with the Deathstar Wolves unit is that one PBS and they are off the board.

That is too large of a weakness to risk, at least IMO. With the propensity of mech IG your odds of drawing that PBS is pretty high. They kill a few wolves, you break on a 2 and then run right off the board. That is game set match in most cases.

It also leaves you open to massive wound stacking in HtH. A smart player will slaughter all the wolves and then let the characters die to overkill.

Ok, I fail to see why the single round of fire granted by the inquisitor is the game winning aspect of this list? Playing my pods, I would deep strike one inch off an enemy vehicle, combat squad sternguard then deploy my units as close to their tank as possible. Keeping in mind that artillery does not rotate. I don't want to be near plasma and they cannot cover their tank with blasts.

I am not being smart or rude here. I think I am just missing something. Can someone please explain?

The leafblower has a lot of firepower, and it *CAN* counter most other options.

It's a solid all comers build.

The reason you see a lot of internet woe about it is based upon the fact that anybody with half a brain can "argue" why it would beat whatever counter is suggested for it, since ... as stated ... it's a solid all comers build.

As far as its success in the tournament field ... well, consider the context. Good general, + going first in all of last rounds at ard boyz, + whacky gladiator and only playing but so many of the opponents there, + 3 out of ~220 opponents at regular Adept Champs? You want to know how many of us went undefeated there?

There's also the aforementioned misnomer applied ... people call any mech IG list they see a "leafblower" b/c they've read too much BOLS or whatever.

The guard codex allows you to build excellent all comers builds that CAN go toe to toe even with builds that would appear to be "hard counters." Cool stuff, especially if you're a great general ... but any kind of OMG CODEX BROKED ARMY BROKED reaction is ... silly.

hyperviper6 wrote:Ok, I fail to see why the single round of fire granted by the inquisitor is the game winning aspect of this list? Playing my pods, I would deep strike one inch off an enemy vehicle, combat squad sternguard then deploy my units as close to their tank as possible. Keeping in mind that artillery does not rotate. I don't want to be near plasma and they cannot cover their tank with blasts.

I am not being smart or rude here. I think I am just missing something. Can someone please explain?

Back up all my tanks to the edge of the board, that way you're potentially going to scatter and mishap. Deploy in a + pattern so I always have a gun pointed at you. Heavy weapons teams have a 360 degree LoS. Do NOT underestimate 1st Rank Fire, 2nd Rank Fire it will floor you.

That said the LoS issue can be exploited, if the unit that they nominate to fire cannot see the target then they cannot fire. Also they can only fire at ONE target, therefore it's either the unit deploying or the transport itself.

LucasLAD wrote:

hyperviper6 wrote:Ok, I fail to see why the single round of fire granted by the inquisitor is the game winning aspect of this list? Playing my pods, I would deep strike one inch off an enemy vehicle, combat squad sternguard then deploy my units as close to their tank as possible. Keeping in mind that artillery does not rotate. I don't want to be near plasma and they cannot cover their tank with blasts.

I am not being smart or rude here. I think I am just missing something. Can someone please explain?

Back up all my tanks to the edge of the board, that way you're potentially going to scatter and mishap. Deploy in a + pattern so I always have a gun pointed at you. Heavy weapons teams have a 360 degree LoS. Do NOT underestimate 1st Rank Fire, 2nd Rank Fire it will floor you.

That said the LoS issue can be exploited, if the unit that they nominate to fire cannot see the target then they cannot fire. Also they can only fire at ONE target, therefore it's either the unit deploying or the transport itself.

First rank, second rank can only be issued to units not in a tank correct?

I derped it's an order that can ony be done in the owning players turn. So it's irrelevant, but yes.

So leaf blower means cripple an enemy in thier deployment area,but why is it called "leaf blower"?

Tony the guardsman wrote:So leaf blower means cripple an enemy in thier deployment area,but why is it called "leaf blower"?

Because The Warhammer 40,000 tournament fun and variety draining list is a bit long winded?

I kid, I kid

Because it can blow away the opposition like a leafblower does to leaves.

IG is broken.

Too many cheap tanks and no, you don't need any freaking skill to play with them. The IG leafblower is like a shotgun in the hands of a child. In the hands of a veteran player it is extremely deadly. There's so much firepower it's absurd.

It all boils down to the chimera being over the top. Reduce it back to 2 fire points and 30 more points and the list suddenly isnt as scary

Its like a wave serpent for a third of the cost.. Who cares if it only has 10 side armor, you got 2 more for every serpent! oh and 3 specials + 1 heavy able to shoot if you dont move. Id love to see less posts about it not being unbeatable and more actual strategies :p The formula for winning is general + army list + probability

Assume each player is exactly the same in skill and experience (IE facing yourself) and dont assume either player will have absurd luck.. It would then come down to the list being used so Im curious how would people beat their own IG mech lists, and then how would they COUNTEr someone doing exactly that? Its not about how to beat the list its about the list being powerful enough to just shrug off such attempts

While IG tanks are relatively cheap and effective, the clincher of the leafblower as described is that 2,500 is enough points to build it.

It has all the various options and countermeasures needed, which you couldn't fit into a 1,500 point list.

The same points level for the enemy, instead of being a balance, actually works against him by minimising the effect of blast markers deviating off target.

There are so many targets in the deployment zone that everything lands on something.

However, it's not true that IG tanks win without skill. Skill and experience always help against any army.

The big issue with guard lists is that people are so afraid to take the "hit" from the big guns or flashy things that they ignore the Chimeras for "too long." Chimeras win games in the end, b/c they are scoring and full of meltaguns or assorted other weaponry, yet they are one of the more fragile units in the game due to the ready ease with which you can pull off side armor shots, rendering them akin to land speeders in terms of toughness.

At Adepticon, my three wins were against arguably superior lists on paper, where I was running chimeras + straken + vets + trips vendettas. The Vendettas are "scary" b/c of their trips tllas and took the majority of early game fire ... leading to situations where chimeras full of pissed off meltavets (pissed off = straken) won the game late. Intriguingly, while a vendetta will spend all game knocking out transports, it's generally useless at getting rid of infantry in cover later in the game when it really matters, and the proliferation of melta and absence of fire points makes it helpless in terms of supporting a guard army at the point of attack at the "end." There are other parallels that can be drawn vs. many other guard "scary" vehicles that draw fire off the keypoint chimeras and troops.

In a situation vs. the leafblower, it's not the same ... and it's not just the chimeras that are doing it to you, but the general lesson remains the same. Insulate your list against pinning and breakage on your guys (I do this now with stubborn+morale re-roll for my guard lists) so that even if your transports are popped, your dudes with meltaguns and/or power fists are functional 'till the last man in the unit, and fixate on the things that will matter the most when the game draws tighter. Also, as mentioned, when facing an army full of S10 ordnance large blasts (which will give a player lots of opportunities to roll 5+highest of 2d6 vs. side and rear armor 10 targets off "nicks" from the templates), don't castle up to start.

Another issue, obviously, relates to "tournament" terrain ... when 25" of the board is *actually* obscured and area terrain'ed, you can drastically reduce the pain of an IG alpha strike. I've played numerous games against the "actual" leafblower and more optimized / differently played variants, at multiple point levels (including the original), piloted by a variety of competent friends / generals. It's not that frightening, but it requires you be both intelligent with your play, and exacting in terms of obtaining every cover save, ideal placement, etc., possible. Consider that when you are facing a close combat purist army, there are numerous "tricks" you must pull when they get to you to ensure they don't pull off all the ideal charges / multi-charges / etc. For some reason I notice a number of players who do not do all of the small things in regard to unit positioning, model placement, orientation of your units relative to cover, etc. that are required to similarly insulate yourself from the "worst" implications of a true gunline. The Leaf Blower is an example of an optimized gunline, and if you don't do all the little things to nullify the splashy painful nature of its damage delivery, you're going to get crunched by it. Huge difference between people not comprehending the best ways to protect themselves, and a list being "actually" broken.

Kirasu wrote:It all boils down to the chimera being over the top. Reduce it back to 2 fire points and 30 more points and the list suddenly isnt as scary

Its like a wave serpent for a third of the cost.. Who cares if it only has 10 side armor, you got 2 more for every serpent! oh and 3 specials + 1 heavy able to shoot if you dont move. Id love to see less posts about it not being unbeatable and more actual strategies :p The formula for winning is general + army list + probability

Assume each player is exactly the same in skill and experience (IE facing yourself) and dont assume either player will have absurd luck.. It would then come down to the list being used so Im curious how would people beat their own IG mech lists, and then how would they COUNTEr someone doing exactly that? Its not about how to beat the list its about the list being powerful enough to just shrug off such attempts

Reducing fire points may be a valid criticism, however upping it 30pts brings it back to its 3E cost, where its then too expensive to be viable. On it's own, the cost is fine, the real issue is not needing to get out. The wave serpent has far better armor, weapons, speed and damage reduction. Remember, it's carrying guardsmen, not marines, so it shouldn't be costed as though it were. 85pts would be what it should be if it's carrying marines, not for carrying guardsmen. It also lacks side hatches, which, for a transport with side AV10, is rather huge. They got the cost right I think, it's about what most people were saying it should be under the last codex, just not the fire points.

5 fire points is indeed absurd, though I think what's happening is what arose with old 4th edition Nid lists and some others.

The Chimera has numerous weaknesses - side armor 10 on a pretty rectangular chassis being one of them. The problem is that all of its weaknesses are GAMEPLAY oriented ... that is to say, a clever general can PLAY better to nullify them. For more elite or higher costed units, you HAVE to play better to get best use out of them ... Chimeras are the inverse. The Wave Serpent pays to be melta proof, and have side AV12. The Chimera can be played better to gain DE FACTO the same - avoid melta range, eliminate enemy melta, minimize visibility of side armor arcs ... if you can play in such a way that your Chimeras aren't subjected to additional d6 and aren't hit in side armor, your 55 point vehicle now IS as good as their 1xx point vehicle. Therein lies the rub.

The Guard are an effective army, made more so by the fact that their low points cost enables greater force multiplication from "good generalship."

Doing all that with the chimera requires a much more active role on the part of the commander and often simply can't be avoided (drop pods, deep strikers, etc will get off melta shots when they come in). Also, the Wave Serpent was costed under a different paradigm, when skimmers were nigh impossible to kill due to the 4E skimmer rules. I'd expect them to drop to probably 70pts or so base when Eldar get redone. Then there's still also the issue that chimera's carry T3 5+sv Ld7/8 units and not 4+/3+sv Ld8/9 units.

The wave serpent functions far better as an actual transport getting guys from point a to point b, the chimera is basically a mobile bunker.

Vaktathi wrote:Doing all that with the chimera requires a much more active role on the part of the commander

In other words... Use Tactics -- maybe not such a bad thing to encourage in a wargame.

Vaktathi wrote:and often simply can't be avoided (drop pods, deep strikers, etc will get off melta shots when they come in). Also, the Wave Serpent was costed under a different paradigm, when skimmers were nigh impossible to kill due to the 4E skimmer rules. I'd expect them to drop to probably 70pts or so base when Eldar get redone. Then there's still also the issue that chimera's carry T3 5+sv Ld7/8 units and not 4+/3+sv Ld8/9 units.

The wave serpent functions far better as an actual transport getting guys from point a to point b, the chimera is basically a mobile bunker.

You're about right IMO. Nothing wrong with a mobile bunker as such, especially when it is flamer proof and carries two useful weapons.

The issue isn't that the Chimera is too cheap, it is just too cheap compared to Eldar and Tau transports.

Reducing the fire points would help balance it.

Vaktathi wrote:Doing all that with the chimera requires a much more active role on the part of the commander and often simply can't be avoided (drop pods, deep strikers, etc will get off melta shots when they come in). Also, the Wave Serpent was costed under a different paradigm, when skimmers were nigh impossible to kill due to the 4E skimmer rules. I'd expect them to drop to probably 70pts or so base when Eldar get redone. Then there's still also the issue that chimera's carry T3 5+sv Ld7/8 units and not 4+/3+sv Ld8/9 units.

The wave serpent functions far better as an actual transport getting guys from point a to point b, the chimera is basically a mobile bunker.

You know its been a whole year and people are still talking about this list. I don't even think Nob bikers lasted this long :(

hyperviper6 wrote:Ok, I fail to see why the single round of fire granted by the inquisitor is the game winning aspect of this list? Playing my pods, I would deep strike one inch off an enemy vehicle, combat squad sternguard then deploy my units as close to their tank as possible. Keeping in mind that artillery does not rotate. I don't want to be near plasma and they cannot cover their tank with blasts.

I am not being smart or rude here. I think I am just missing something. Can someone please explain?

Sell me your loaded scatter dice

Given how bad the chimera was in 4E and how awesome Devilfish and Wave Serpents were, I think we've seen the balance swing. I'd expect once Tau and Eldar get redone, the low cost of the chimera and its fire points won't seem as bad. As usual however, we have armies spanning multiple editions and design paradigms, thus resulting in awkwardness. I think relative to the 5E SM armies, chimera's aren't unbalanced at all, it's the Xenos armies, 4E SMs, and Tyranids that seem to have issues, most of which should be rectified before 6E and the cycle will begin again. Tyranids I don't know what to say, the book added a lot of cool stuff but just seemed to fall on it's face in terms of building a solid all comers list I think. I haven't seen them do terribly well yet.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with DE raiders, that'll be fun I think

Lash spam did.

G

Darkwynn wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Doing all that with the chimera requires a much more active role on the part of the commander and often simply can't be avoided (drop pods, deep strikers, etc will get off melta shots when they come in). Also, the Wave Serpent was costed under a different paradigm, when skimmers were nigh impossible to kill due to the 4E skimmer rules. I'd expect them to drop to probably 70pts or so base when Eldar get redone. Then there's still also the issue that chimera's carry T3 5+sv Ld7/8 units and not 4+/3+sv Ld8/9 units.

The wave serpent functions far better as an actual transport getting guys from point a to point b, the chimera is basically a mobile bunker.

You know its been a whole year and people are still talking about this list. I don't even think Nob bikers lasted this long :(

I play parking lot IG all the time. I win a lot of games, but people using modern dexes, with lists built with IG in mind (not keying on them, just thinking about them) can win. Don't forget that there are objectives missions that IG has to go get, and that they are challenged in kill points by correctly built opponents. Here are some lists I don't get overconfident when facing.

wolf guard battle leader power fist storm shield thunderwolf mount
wolf guard battle leader power fist storm shield thunderwolf mount
wolf guard battle leader power fist storm shield thunderwolf mount
rune priest storm caller/tempests wrath
5x grey hunters razorback twin-linked lascannon
5x grey hunters razorback twin-linked lascannon
5x grey hunters razorback twin-linked lascannon
5x grey hunters razorback twin-linked lascannon
1x thunderwolf cavalry power fist storm shield
1x thunderwolf cavalry power fist storm shield
1x thunderwolf cavalry power fist storm shield
6x long fangs 5x missiles
6x long fangs 5x missiles
6x long fangs 5x missiles

15 missiles at 6 different targets, 4 twin-linked lascannons, and 6 turn two assaulters that hit like mack trucks with 3+ invulns. It doens't matter how fragile the razorback is. it isn't a priority, IG HAS to shoot at those long fangs, and they also need to efficiently handle those thunderwolves. The absence of counter-assault is VERY telling here.

shas'el/shas'vre target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones 2x tl missile pods
shas'el/shas'vre target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones 2x tl missile pods
2x crisis target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones 2x tl missile pods
2x crisis target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones 2x tl missile pods
2x crisis target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones 2x tl missile pods
6x fire warriors
6x fire warriors
6x fire warriors
11x kroot 8x hounds
11x kroot 8x hounds
4x pathfinders devilfish multi-tracker targeting array smart missiles disruption pod
4x pathfinders devilfish multi-tracker targeting array smart missiles disruption pod
4x pathfinders devilfish multi-tracker targeting array smart missiles disruption pod
2x broadsides target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones
2x broadsides target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones
2x broadsides target lock, drone controller 2x gun drones

Top of 1 IG kills 16x gun drones, bottom of 1, 16x twin linked anti-tank shots come at you, targeting 16x different targets, and three of your targets don't have cover saves. I don't think I'd enjoy facing off against that list either.


tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs catalyst
3x hive guard
3x hive guard
2x hive guard
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs catalyst
tervigon adrenal glands toxin sacs catalyst
10x termagants
14x termagants
tyrannofex
tyrannofex
tyrannofex

Everything has 4+ cover, the t-fexes and hive guard just point at your vehicles and they die, and once you've finally managed to kill them all off, you get to go take objectives from 3 more monstrous creatures and approximately 100 fearless models. This one isn't really a slam dunk either.

These are just a few lists that spring to mind that can easily intimidate me and my chimeras. Well written lists, made from a current codex, compete with IG, if they didn't I'd have more trophies on my shelf.

Overpowered? No.

This Tau list, is it one that would do well against a lot of other armies apart from the Leaf Blower?

Darkwynn, IG guru! I really enjoy your leveled approach. Man, you are "the leafblower!"

Anyways, back to the thread... enough fanboy...

To some extent the whole issue is artificial.

The game isn't meant to be balanced at 2,500 points. (I mean it ism but really it isn't. I know that makes no sense but this is GW we are talking about.)

1,500 to 2,000 is the sweet spot.

Vaktathi wrote:

I'm not being a defeatist or intentionally being a prick but why would I even attempt to play a game against this list then? In every thread that has mentioned the Leafblower list someone has posted a counter, then anywhere from 5 to 1029301293012930912 people post why that won't work and all the counters.

I'd like to see a viable counter to this list other than, "Oh it can be beaten, it's just hard."

With nids? Personally, I don't know. In my 8 or so games against the new book so far with mechanized IG and Chaos Space Marines, I've massacred them every time, my first two games I didn't even take so much as a single glancing hit or lose a single guardsmen. New nids seem to be really awkward.

QFT
awkward at best. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this about 'nids.

New Nids do have a problem with anti-tank.

Plus, they suffer from the metagame environment in which lots of people take lots of melta and so on to counter mech' lists. Melta is great against mid-size creatures and useful against the MCs. Flamers are cheap unless you are Tau.

The clever money is currently on Tyranids being a fun but 2nd tier codex.

IMO the core problem is that there isn't a stand-out mega build like there was with many codexes.

It doesn't mean the codex is weak (though it might) it means the codex is harder to use than some others.

Kilkrazy wrote:This Tau list, is it one that would do well against a lot of other armies apart from the Leaf Blower?

Well, that is exactly how I'd run tau in a take all comers tourney. I stopped liking plasma once everyone got addicted to putting storm shields on everything that can take them. That save needs to be CC only...

Yeah storm shields should only have their annoying the 3+ invulnerable save in cc.

Kilkrazy wrote:To some extent the whole issue is artificial.

The game isn't meant to be balanced at 2,500 points. (I mean it ism but really it isn't. I know that makes no sense but this is GW we are talking about.)

1,500 to 2,000 is the sweet spot.

I think 1500pts. is where the game should be played. You have to make choices and can't spam as much.

CT GAMER wrote:

I think 1500pts. is where the game should be played. You have to make choices and can't spam as much.

Shep, too bad we didn't get to face off at the Slaughter, I'd like to attempt teaching you respect for the Dark Eldar! =)

C'mon, get vassal and Skype so that we can play cross-country!

Vaktathi wrote:Unfortunately this is also where many of the most abusive things are at their best because people don't have the tools to counter them, e.g. Nob Bikers, Lash+Oblit spam, etc. At 2k these aren't quite as bad, although at 2.5k you have the same issue where IG just becomes silly and other armies have run out of FoC slots to do stuff with.

Perhaps, but at 1500 an army that spams or relies on a certain gimmick has to make that decision to become rock-scissors-paper. Focus too hard, and you might have an advantage over a more generalist list, but you're also much more vulnerable to other gimmicky lists. It can be hard to deal with a hard spam of one element at 1500, but it's still possible with a balanced, well thought out army, and most importantly it's possible with a balanced, well thought out army from any codex. Go above 1500, and not only do unimaginative spam armies get to have all the rock in the world, plus all the scissors, but it also heavily favours certain codices over others.

Games above 1500 are fun, but for the best competitiveness, it really has to be 1500.

Relic_OMO wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Unfortunately this is also where many of the most abusive things are at their best because people don't have the tools to counter them, e.g. Nob Bikers, Lash+Oblit spam, etc. At 2k these aren't quite as bad, although at 2.5k you have the same issue where IG just becomes silly and other armies have run out of FoC slots to do stuff with.

Perhaps, but at 1500 an army that spams or relies on a certain gimmick has to make that decision to become rock-scissors-paper. Focus too hard, and you might have an advantage over a more generalist list, but you're also much more vulnerable to other gimmicky lists. It can be hard to deal with a hard spam of one element at 1500, but it's still possible with a balanced, well thought out army, and most importantly it's possible with a balanced, well thought out army from any codex. Go above 1500, and not only do unimaginative spam armies get to have all the rock in the world, plus all the scissors, but it also heavily favours certain codices over others.

Games above 1500 are fun, but for the best competitiveness, it really has to be 1500.

I've found the exact opposite really. 1500 makes the gimmick spam armies really powerful because an all comers list *can't* pack in everything it needs to counter them and still remain all-comers. Playing CSM's for instance against Nob Bikers at 1500 versus 2000 makes a world of difference and cuts down on the ability of the Nob Bikers to do their thing with limited counters. Likewise Lash/Oblit/PM armies are much stronger at 1500 than they are at 2000 because they can fit all their important elements in without sacrificing what really makes them powerful. It's much easier for all comers armies to get the tools they need to defeat such builds at 2000pts. IG are the primary thing that throws this off because most armies hit FoC thresholds that where they just can't take any more of the killy stuff so they work best at the points level where they just max these out, but IG with it's expandable FoC slots keeps adding stuff.

I think Nids suffer from lack of anti-tank MODELS more than anti-tank

Zoanthropes are great in a pod.. oh look no pod

T-fexes are pretty good because they stick around for a long time and keep shooting S10 guns.. no model

Tevigron creates lots of little annoying things to surround tanks.. no model

Atleast hive guard have a model!

No doubt Nids could use some more plastic models especially for the Monstrous Creatures. Conversion kits would be a good idea, to let you take a Carnifex or Trygon and change it to a Tervigon or whatever.

Luckily some after-market manufacturers are stepping into the gap to supply resin kits for mycetic pods and some of the MCs.

Whatever the situation regarding models, the nids have a structural shortage of anti-tank weapons such as meltas, plasma guns, lascannons, krak missiles and autocannons which provide cheap, effective firepower from short to medium/long range in Imperial armies.

Their best options for anti-tank are Zoeanthropes and the MCs.

Warriors are of some use in H2H attacks and their strongest ranged weapons can be useful against very light vehicles.

But in reality nids have always been that way, they rely on Tank tipping in CC rather than ranged fire power. I do think that what is true for the guard, the opposite is true for nids in that they are about 10-15% over priced. Yes the Tfex has a str 10 gun T6 and 6 wounds, however it's still BS 3 and can be insta gibbed so 275 is a bit steep. The Hive Guard are amazing, but still a bit over priced. I also think another issue is that Nids have too many GOOD options fighting for the Elites slot, IMO hive guard should be heavy, lictors should be fast, Doom should be an HQ.

Also another question, since I'll be playing a little mech heavy should I take Storm caller on one of my RP? I'm only asking because a 5+ cover is better than nothing when dealing with a large amount of fire power.

I think Nidz could do quite well in the hands of the right Hivemind...

G

The best Nid builds often take too long to play for a tournament setting, unfortunately. Multiple Tervigons supporting 9 hive guard w/ associated support elements, for example? So much time spent maneuvering, ensuring key units have cover, and moving / spawning gaunts ... hard to get a game done in time, and they're a "late game" army that shines best by the end, when they've worn things down.

Nids are tricky in that regard, and can be "unfun" to play at the best build level. Unfortunate.

Deep striking could be quite effective against this list. Once you drop outside of the 14" radius (average roll on 4-D6) of the mystics you can take out units nearby and pose a potentially serious threat to his army, requiring him to target this new threat and not your main army giving you some breathing space to launch your own attack.

Given the large points limit it's very possible that he will not be able to deploy all his units within this 14" zone of protection and therefore he will have gaps in his defensive "line" that you can exploit.

Still though it is a very strong army, and any game will be extremly tough against it.

Mookie.

LucasLAD wrote:But in reality nids have always been that way, they rely on Tank tipping in CC rather than ranged fire power. I do think that what is true for the guard, the opposite is true for nids in that they are about 10-15% over priced. Yes the Tfex has a str 10 gun T6 and 6 wounds, however it's still BS 3 and can be insta gibbed so 275 is a bit steep. The Hive Guard are amazing, but still a bit over priced. I also think another issue is that Nids have too many GOOD options fighting for the Elites slot, IMO hive guard should be heavy, lictors should be fast, Doom should be an HQ.

Also another question, since I'll be playing a little mech heavy should I take Storm caller on one of my RP? I'm only asking because a 5+ cover is better than nothing when dealing with a large amount of fire power.

True, and in today's metagame there are a lot more tanks around than under 4e, so the lack of AT is more of a weakness. Meanwhile, the numbers of tanks causes Imperial players to put more cheap AT in their armies which hurts Tyranid medium sized creatures.

20 Seers on jetbikes will gut this list. The other 1k of Eldar you get is just gravy.

torgoch wrote:20 Seers on jetbikes will gut this list. The other 1k of Eldar you get is just gravy.

The Psychic Hoods are the key issue here. The Seer Bikes aren't a bad choice for it though, played well.

Edit: And if they go first it can suck a lot, depending on terrain.

torgoch wrote:20 Seers on jetbikes will gut this list. The other 1k of Eldar you get is just gravy.

sadly, they won't people like to think they will and love to play it out in a vacuum with no variables but its highly not going to happen. The sheer amount of shooting forcing you to roll dice even on a 10 man squad you loose to many guys.


Eldar are just to expensive right now in 5th edition.

The psychic hood here is Ld8, so it needs to beat the Eldar score by 3 to work. If there was an Inq lord in the list, then it would be an issue.

I've been playing Seer councils on bikes at the GT and Throne of Skulls since the Eldar codex came out and doing reasonably well. My view and experience is that if the Eldar player has the first turn, then the game is over in turn 2 when they charge. If the Guard player has first turn then it becomes a bit more competitive depending on how many 4+ saves the Eldar make, but its still not a prospect I find alarming. There are far worse things to make a Seer Council run at.

I agree too. What I mentioned earlier wasn't something I thought would totally negate the council, it was the comprehensive list of what I think could within the army be a factor for the council Those things are ridiculously sturdy. There's not a lot Eldar can't answer.

Torgoch, when the list fields an Elite inquisitor it has two henchman for LD10. There’s no point in bringing a hood under LD10, so no one does. This and the first turn gamble are the two biggest reasons I wouldn’t want to risk the seer council lists in ‘ard boyz. If the IG player goes first before any Fortune can get up, you’re probably going to lose most of the warlocks before you even move.

That's counting on the terrain not offering a LOS block and the hoods being in range against the army with the highest mobility in the game, so I believe it's a fair gamble. Nothing is unstoppable really though

An elite Inquisitor cannot get to LD 10.. Like every other stat increasing henchmen it is for 1 or more.. Not for each one

Kirasu wrote:An elite Inquisitor cannot get to LD 10.. Like every other stat increasing henchmen it is for 1 or more.. Not for each one

This.

It's worded weirdly but yeah.

The Hierophant wrote:
If an Inquisitor has one or more Hierophants in his retinue, he gains +1 Leadership, to a maximum of 10.

The maximum part makes it sound cooler than it is, but I think that was there so your Inq Lord couldn't be leadership 12.

My thinking is that its +1 maximum, so no Ld10 elite inqs.

I don't see first turn as a particular gamble with a seer list. Normally I like to go second, unless there is a vast battery of long range firepower arrayed against me.

torgoch wrote:
I don't see first turn as a particular gamble with a seer list. Normally I like to go second, unless there is a vast battery of long range firepower arrayed against me.

Hmmm

<takes a look at the title of the thread>
<looks at torgoch's statement>
<takes a look at the title of the thread>
<looks at torgoch's statement>

There's something nagging at me, but I can't put my finger on it.

torgoch wrote:My thinking is that its +1 maximum, so no Ld10 elite inqs.

I don't see first turn as a particular gamble with a seer list. Normally I like to go second, unless there is a vast battery of long range firepower arrayed against me.

So two options you either turbo boost first with no fortune and get shot to bits because you are not re rolling your save or you cast fortune and get shot while moving12 then 6 to the board giving the IG player two to Three turns of shooting. While at the same time chance to block your hoods.

so .10% chance if you going to take the fortune route which the list should be able to put close to 180 wounds you can loose 10- 18 models a round. Not including the ones that will be str 10 that can instant kill your farseer or using the rerollable 4+ save.

You turbo boost across with 3+ save without fortune only having a .33 chance of saving with 100+ wounds possible you will loose too many models sadly.

After reading dark's articles on BoLS I found out that if you do take this list you are a person who doesn't care about having fun, just winning. And that is what kills leaf blower lists is the NOT HAVING fun factor for both sides. This list will make the other person go until you are done.

Deff Jaw wrote:After reading dark's articles on BoLS I found out that if you do take this list you are a person who doesn't care about having fun, just winning. And that is what kills leaf blower lists is the NOT HAVING fun factor for both sides. This list will make the other person go until you are done.

Well, it was for Ard Boyz...

I have a couple of ideas on how to counter this list. Unlike many I'm going to wait until May 16th to start bringing them up on message boards.

Deff Jaw wrote:After reading dark's articles on BoLS I found out that if you do take this list you are a person who doesn't care about having fun, just winning. And that is what kills leaf blower lists is the NOT HAVING fun factor for both sides. This list will make the other person go until you are done.

After reading your post, I found out that you are a scrub. Go back to chug-a-lugging the Kool-Aid.

See, I can make personal attacks too.

...Here's a question: why not counter it with a basilisk/Hydra heavy list? If the scoring units are traveling by valk, Hydra their butts. If they fill their entire deployment zone, just fire bassies into them. If it's that packed, you're bound to kill something (probably quite a lot of something). If it's Apoc, send in the Mauraders/Baneblades/Shadowswords. Or hit them with a Vortex Missile from a Warlord Titan. Whoever shoots first, shoots best.

Or are you looking for Non-IG counters to an IG list?

Vakathi can confirm that I have played 2 Armies that do well against Mech Guard (Chimera Hull Spam) but I think Darkwynn hit a moment of the game where the answers to his versions of mech IG were limited because the obvious threat was not majorly from mech IG at a tournament setting.

I have played a Iyanden Wraithguard heavy list against Vakathi and we had some very close games, as well as playing it with my Biker themed Space Marines which actually did the best. A lot of the newer codex have answer for Mech IG, the problem is do you want to be able to focus on killing Mech IG, or another typical tournament archtype. I personally think that at this moment in time for 5th edition, if you can bring Melta Delivery as well as Durability to a list, you can easily be competitive against most archtypes

I think this is all an elaborate scheme to make a large amount of people show up to Ard Boyz with the same army, and those that perpetrated the ruse will show up with a powerful all-comers list specifically tweaked to avoid getting bunched up in their deployment zone!

Just throwing that out there.

The obvious hard counter to this list is a true mech spam. An army that loads up on chimeltas, for instance, provide far too many targets for a list to counter. Toss in obvious items like suicide vendetta squads and you have something solid.

My opinion is that the leafblower depends on too many lynchpins, around which the army cannot function if they are taken out. Not raining on your parade, you obviously did well for yourself, but I think it can be made better by 'flattening' out the relative target prioritization across the list (some are very obvious KILL THIS based on different lists).

Darkwynn wrote:

torgoch wrote:My thinking is that its +1 maximum, so no Ld10 elite inqs.

I don't see first turn as a particular gamble with a seer list. Normally I like to go second, unless there is a vast battery of long range firepower arrayed against me.

So two options you either turbo boost first with no fortune and get shot to bits because you are not re rolling your save or you cast fortune and get shot while moving12 then 6 to the board giving the IG player two to Three turns of shooting. While at the same time chance to block your hoods.

so .10% chance if you going to take the fortune route which the list should be able to put close to 180 wounds you can loose 10- 18 models a round. Not including the ones that will be str 10 that can instant kill your farseer or using the rerollable 4+ save.

You turbo boost across with 3+ save without fortune only having a .33 chance of saving with 100+ wounds possible you will loose too many models sadly.

"You can Turbo-Boost a Jet-Council AND get fortune cast on them without leaving the Farseer off to the side. Simply stagger your deployment and turbo-boost the warlocks, leaving the last one in the line 13.11 inches away from the Farseer's starting position, then simply move him 12 and end within 2' thus attaching the Farseer to the squad and keeping your 3+ (now re-roll able) cover save.(No HE doesn't get a 3+ cover save, be careful how you allocate)"

Quoted from an article, so grain of salt, but it is possible by strict RaW.

MikhailLenin wrote:Vakathi can confirm that I have played 2 Armies that do well against Mech Guard (Chimera Hull Spam)

Damn your initiative seizing rolls!

but I think Darkwynn hit a moment of the game where the answers to his versions of mech IG were limited because the obvious threat was not majorly from mech IG at a tournament setting.

I definitely think that last year people were still very much in the mindset of IG still not being a huge threat as the old codex was terrible.

I have played a Iyanden Wraithguard heavy list against Vakathi and we had some very close games, as well as playing it with my Biker themed Space Marines which actually did the best.

I think I only played your bikes with my CSM's, we should fix that at some point

We played also at Guardian Games for Beet and Pizza Night.

Did we? I can't remember, I remember playing against the other IG guy in a 1500pt game, in like the only game ever without my Chimeras

And then my roommate getting his car towed

If I had more time I'd head up there one of the upcoming weekends, but alas, grad school sucks my will to live, along with getting ready to move :(

I think Tau can give it a run for it's money. Shep's list was pretty good, but I like more movement blocking - less markerlights.

I would go with something like this as a specific counter to "Leaf Blower"

Shas'el - AFP, twin missile pod, hwtl, 2 gun drones, bonding

3 Deathrains-1 w/flamer, 1 w/tl, 1 Team Leader/2 gun drones, bonding, flamer
3 Deathrains-1 w/flamer, 1 w/tl, 1 Team Leader/2 gun drones, bonding, flamer
3 Deathrains-1 w/flamer, 1 w/tl, 1 Team Leader/2 gun drones, bonding, flamer

6 Firewarriors-
Devilfish- burst, sms, ta, dp, mt
6 Firewarriors-
Devilfish- burst, sms, ta, dp, mt
10 kroot- 5 hounds
10 kroot- 5 hounds

4 Piranhas- fusion, ta, dp, 2 tl
4 Piranhas- fusion, ta, dp, 2 tl

3 Broadsides- 1x tl, 1x 2gundrones 1 team leader w/tl, bonding, hwbsf
3 Broadsides 1x tl 1x 2 gundrones 1 team leader w/tl, bonding, hwbsf
1 Railhead- sms, dp, mt, tl

Sure, he can keep his cover saves but now he has more choices. Does he kill the broadsides, the piranhas, the crisis suits, or the troops. I'm shooting 7 railguns at 7 targets - including that blast marker for smacking units that've been blown out of transports. Each piranha squadron can unleash 8 drone to further muddy things. There's an insane amount of pinning shot in this force as well as random SMS for picking off stray dudes

8 fusion guns firing at 6 different targets. 10 twin-linked missile pods firing at 7 different targets, 7 railguns firing at different targets. Oh and 11 hulls for the enemy to focus on.

Playing mech IG in any variant is like betting yourself you can crush your crotch in a car door 4 times in a row.

Even if you do succeed, it wasn't much fun was it?

AgeOfEgos wrote:Playing mech IG in any variant is like betting yourself you can crush your crotch in a car door 4 times in a row.

Even if you do succeed, it wasn't much fun was it?

Now that's funny!

*break*

Hmmm, I bet I could crush my business in a car door... (painting mech guard)

...but I play as mech guard and have had a good time????

My iron wall of leman russ AV 14 frontal plating and somewhat squishier chimeras rolled over the many space marine players who having been telling me for years I was a slow to play guard at all. They now quiver in fear as I set up my deathstrike launcher.

I enjoyed it greatly. Revenge is a dish best served with AP 1, Str 10 templates.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:I think Tau can give it a run for it's money. Shep's list was pretty good, but I like more movement blocking - less markerlights.

I would go with something like this as a specific counter to "Leaf Blower"

Shas'el - AFP, twin missile pod, hwtl, 2 gun drones, bonding

3 Deathrains-1 w/flamer, 1 w/tl, 1 Team Leader/2 gun drones, bonding, flamer
3 Deathrains-1 w/flamer, 1 w/tl, 1 Team Leader/2 gun drones, bonding, flamer
3 Deathrains-1 w/flamer, 1 w/tl, 1 Team Leader/2 gun drones, bonding, flamer

6 Firewarriors-
Devilfish- burst, sms, ta, dp, mt
6 Firewarriors-
Devilfish- burst, sms, ta, dp, mt
10 kroot- 5 hounds
10 kroot- 5 hounds

4 Piranhas- fusion, ta, dp, 2 tl
4 Piranhas- fusion, ta, dp, 2 tl

3 Broadsides- 1x tl, 1x 2gundrones 1 team leader w/tl, bonding, hwbsf
3 Broadsides 1x tl 1x 2 gundrones 1 team leader w/tl, bonding, hwbsf
1 Railhead- sms, dp, mt, tl

Sure, he can keep his cover saves but now he has more choices. Does he kill the broadsides, the piranhas, the crisis suits, or the troops. I'm shooting 7 railguns at 7 targets - including that blast marker for smacking units that've been blown out of transports. Each piranha squadron can unleash 8 drone to further muddy things. There's an insane amount of pinning shot in this force as well as random SMS for picking off stray dudes

8 fusion guns firing at 6 different targets. 10 twin-linked missile pods firing at 7 different targets, 7 railguns firing at different targets. Oh and 11 hulls for the enemy to focus on.

I had to be a points fascist and delete your full points values.

BaronIveagh wrote:...but I play as mech guard and have had a good time????

My iron wall of leman russ AV 14 frontal plating and somewhat squishier chimeras rolled over the many space marine players who having been telling me for years I was a slow to play guard at all. They now quiver in fear as I set up my deathstrike launcher.

I enjoyed it greatly. Revenge is a dish best served with AP 1, Str 10 templates.

Is it ever fun getting hit by a Hammer or being the one swinging it? (not that I ever hit anybody with a real hammer )

It can be fun if the hammer bounces off your forehead of steel and rebounds to hit the wielder in the nuts.

Depending on circumstances, better players may welcome the challenge of fighting a tough army with an underdog list. It could be the only way of making a contest even, which would otherwise be a walk-over for the better player.

I don't believe there is such a thing as 100% auto-win.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

"You can Turbo-Boost a Jet-Council AND get fortune cast on them without leaving the Farseer off to the side. Simply stagger your deployment and turbo-boost the warlocks, leaving the last one in the line 13.11 inches away from the Farseer's starting position, then simply move him 12 and end within 2' thus attaching the Farseer to the squad and keeping your 3+ (now re-roll able) cover save.(No HE doesn't get a 3+ cover save, be careful how you allocate)"

Quoted from an article, so grain of salt, but it is possible by strict RaW.

You can also Turbo boost with a fortune by having two farseers on the table or two jetseer councils. One to fortune the Turboboosters. Heck you can have 2 Jetseer councils and Eldrad and get them both fortuned and turboboosted on turn 1. The idea that "leaf blower' will put 100 wounds on the Council is laughable. Only if there is zero terrain and the Council boosts to the most optimal spot in the center of the IG line. With half a brain the council will only be in range of half the IG army. An all SM Bikes list plays havoc with the IG 'Leaf Blower" list and one won the Big Waagh last year, if I remember correctly.

to Jake "look at all the people gawking over the IG list!"

Jake: "this is getting old"

me: "yes, but read it again..."

Jake: "hmm..sounds like usual gamers blabbing like korn raged old ladies.."

now that I am done talking to my imaginary friend.. (Jake punches me after seeing this )
but seriously..

I have played this list in and out of competitive tournaments several times... well that is to say that I have played a more beefed up (apparently better) version of this list. Our local mech guard player Alex has made similar guard list with vendettas and hydras. He has told me on several occasions that he talked with the creator of the leaf blower and both were in agreement that Alex's list was slightly better. which one is actually better is not the point, the real point is that I have tied with the list several times and won a few. the only reason why I have is because I can out number the guard and field 10+ meltas in a single army. combine this with the fact that everything outflanks because of khan and I get re-rolls to reserves with tigurius and you have a game winning combination.

that being said I am seriously getting tired of mech guard being the new gold standard that everyone has to talk about.
I applaud anyone willing to try and play one of the more off beat army's like SOB and DE.
so please find something new to talk about

sorry for being so angry---
thatirishguy-

Kilkrazy wrote:It can be fun if the hammer bounces off your forehead of steel and rebounds to hit the wielder in the nuts.

Depending on circumstances, better players may welcome the challenge of fighting a tough army with an underdog list. It could be the only way of making a contest even, which would otherwise be a walk-over for the better player.

I don't believe there is such a thing as 100% auto-win.

Right and I'm with you there. I enjoy competitive games and have no issue playing hard armies.

However, the issue with mech IG is not necessarily "Is it too difficult to overcome with an all comers list" (Although that is a valid question). The issue is "Is it fun even if you beat it?"

Unlike say....ThunderWolf Cav spam, Lash, Thunder Terms, etc....there is little to no interaction with an IG gunline. You roll vehicle damage charts almost all game, he rolls shooting phases almost all game. Very little movement, very little unit interaction.

Pretty bleh, even when you win.

thatirishguy wrote:to Jake "look at all the people gawking over the IG list!"

Jake: "this is getting old"

me: "yes, but read it again..."

Jake: "hmm..sounds like usual gamers blabbing like korn raged old ladies.."

now that I am done talking to my imaginary friend.. (Jake punches me after seeing this )
but seriously..

I have played this list in and out of competitive tournaments several times... well that is to say that I have played a more beefed up (apparently better) version of this list. Our local mech guard player Alex has made similar guard list with vendettas and hydras. He has told me on several occasions that he talked with the creator of the leaf blower and both were in agreement that Alex's list was slightly better. which one is actually better is not the point, the real point is that I have tied with the list several times and won a few. the only reason why I have is because I can out number the guard and field 10+ meltas in a single army. combine this with the fact that everything outflanks because of khan and I get re-rolls to reserves with tigurius and you have a game winning combination.

that being said I am seriously getting tired of mech guard being the new gold standard that everyone has to talk about.
I applaud anyone willing to try and play one of the more off beat army's like SOB and DE.
so please find something new to talk about

sorry for being so angry---
thatirishguy-

dont' know what to tell you theirishguy but I haven't talked to anyone about the leafblower and making the list better expect for two people... Jwolf and goatboy. The final version was never truely posted on the internet but if you were smart enough you could figure it out.

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It can be fun if the hammer bounces off your forehead of steel and rebounds to hit the wielder in the nuts.

Depending on circumstances, better players may welcome the challenge of fighting a tough army with an underdog list. It could be the only way of making a contest even, which would otherwise be a walk-over for the better player.

I don't believe there is such a thing as 100% auto-win.

Right and I'm with you there. I enjoy competitive games and have no issue playing hard armies.

However, the issue with mech IG is not necessarily "Is it too difficult to overcome with an all comers list" (Although that is a valid question). The issue is "Is it fun even if you beat it?"

Unlike say....ThunderWolf Cav spam, Lash, Thunder Terms, etc....there is little to no interaction with an IG gunline. You roll vehicle damage charts almost all game, he rolls shooting phases almost all game. Very little movement, very little unit interaction.

Pretty bleh, even when you win.

That's probably true of all games played above the ideal point value.

Isn't it what Apocalypse is about? Roll craptons of dice instead of "Using Tactics" to try and win.

Darkwynn, I read your "end of the leafblower". I respect your decision and definitely agree with you about grinding down new players. I played IG in 2nd edition and was very successful in tourneys and such, but when I picked up 4th edition I was demolished (couldn't do anything with my SM and DHs). I decided to play IG in 5th before I knew of the LB stuff. I use heavy Russes and basilisks so I'd like to think my army isn't "canned". Lets face it, if an IG player uses chimeras and ordnance, lips will poke out... Its just a IG stigma now.

Kilkrazy wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It can be fun if the hammer bounces off your forehead of steel and rebounds to hit the wielder in the nuts.

Depending on circumstances, better players may welcome the challenge of fighting a tough army with an underdog list. It could be the only way of making a contest even, which would otherwise be a walk-over for the better player.

I don't believe there is such a thing as 100% auto-win.

Right and I'm with you there. I enjoy competitive games and have no issue playing hard armies.

However, the issue with mech IG is not necessarily "Is it too difficult to overcome with an all comers list" (Although that is a valid question). The issue is "Is it fun even if you beat it?"

Unlike say....ThunderWolf Cav spam, Lash, Thunder Terms, etc....there is little to no interaction with an IG gunline. You roll vehicle damage charts almost all game, he rolls shooting phases almost all game. Very little movement, very little unit interaction.

Pretty bleh, even when you win.

That's probably true of all games played above the ideal point value.

Isn't it what Apocalypse is about? Roll craptons of dice instead of "Using Tactics" to try and win.

^^, I apologize because I must have missed the point value we were talking about. Almost every game I've played against IG has been 1850 and lower, which is what I based my posts/perspective on. Apoc has no place in any balance discussion as far as I'm concerned...as it's about telling a story, not winning a game (IMHO).

Point values 2k+ start depending on what armies FOC look like more than specific units. For example, Space Marines scale well to upper point values as every part of the FOC has worthwhile units available.....I would imagine IG scale very well considering their 1-3 slots in the FOC.

Regardless, I'll still base my prior points on values of 1850.

dont' know what to tell you theirishguy but I haven't talked to anyone about the leafblower and making the list better expect for two people... Jwolf and goatboy. The final version was never truely posted on the internet but if you were smart enough you could figure it out.

said he chated with you once briefly.. and anyways that was not quite what my post was about it was the fact that I have faced the list, won, and just wish everyone would move on...

thatirishguy--

and do you know who Jwolf and goatboy are? I only ask because he (Alex) would name himself goatboy *rolls eyes*

thatirishguy wrote:

dont' know what to tell you theirishguy but I haven't talked to anyone about the leafblower and making the list better expect for two people... Jwolf and goatboy. The final version was never truely posted on the internet but if you were smart enough you could figure it out.

said he chated with you once briefly.. and anyways that was not quite what my post was about it was the fact that I have faced the list, won, and just wish everyone would move on...

thatirishguy--

and do you know who Jwolf and goatboy are? I only ask because he (Alex) would name himself goatboy *rolls eyes*

lol ya considering I stood in Goatboy's wedding and I hang out with Jwolf every week

meh... worth a shot anyways
*considers if he should call Alex out as a liar*
"did some one just narrate me?"

oh and I finally found the end of the leaf blower post...good stuff

thatirishguy--

The end? Oh my friend.. it will never end

thatirishguy wrote:meh... worth a shot anyways
*considers if he should call Alex out as a liar*
"did some one just narrate me?"

BaronIveagh wrote:

thatirishguy wrote:meh... worth a shot anyways
*considers if he should call Alex out as a liar*
"did some one just narrate me?"

lol!

Lead Blower isn't invincible, but it's a really good tournament army. It has some solid assets besides it's firepower.

1) It's not MEQ: Most armies are tooled to kill MEQ, thus any units tooled to kill MEQ are wasted overkill points when used against IG infantry. Good examples are lightling claw terminators, DC, Lash Whip Bone Sword Warriors, Thousand Sons, Tau Plasma guns, Plasma cannons.... Most armies have a lot of points sunk into MEQ killing, and it's largely wasted points or less than ideal weapon choices when fighting IG.

2) Target Saturation & expandability: It has a LOT of front AV12 targets, and they are all expendable. It's a weakness in KP missions, but 2/3 missions are objective based missions. Most armies don't have enough AV to take out the numbers of AV12 targets. Once a Chimera is popped any surviving members of a squad are killed so easily uber anti personal weapons are also wasted points spent on overkill.

People shouldn't be analyzing how to beat leafblower. There is nothing to analyze because the answer is as simple as crack open the Chimera and kill the squishies inside. The Question people should be asking is "What not to do when fighting leafblower"

Things not to do when fighting IG:

1: Attack it in waves. Feeding a couple of fast units to the IG's melta and plasma guns while the rest of the army foot slogs across the table is a sure way to lose. The problem Mech Space marine players have is that IG is exceptionally good at killing Rhinos & Razorbacks, and the usual tactic of an IG player is to gun down most of the transports forcing the space marine player to attack in 2 waves. Alpha Strike is exceptionally important to the IG player when fighting mech space marines. Gunning down transports with an alpha strike in their deployment zone is a lot more effective than shooting at Rhinos that popped smoke after moving 12" towards the IG lines. The bottom line is Mech Space Marine is the most common type of army in a tournament, and it's in deep Kimchi when going 2nd against IG

2: Overkill a dismounted infantry squad in CC. The normal instinct of a player is to totally crush their enemy in CC, which is bad when charging 10 guardsmen. The net result is 10 dead guardsmen, and the squad being open and exposed to intense close range IG firepower. It's better to get as few models as possible into CC with the guardsmen, and have the rest multi charge a vehicle. Fewer guard casualties will mean the squad probably won't break, and the charging squad will be protected from IG shooting in the IG's shooting phase. Add to that the possible net gain of a krak grenade damaging another vehicle along with the very likely outcome that after the rest of the MEQ squad is pulled into CC with the IG infantry squad it will die in the assault phase of the IG player freeing the MEQ squad to act normally on the marine player's turn.

schadenfreude wrote:Lead Blower isn't invincible, but it's a really good tournament army. It has some solid assets besides it's firepower.

No, let me explain.

schadenfreude wrote:1) It's not MEQ: Most armies are tooled to kill MEQ, thus any units tooled to kill MEQ are wasted overkill points when used against IG infantry. Good examples are lightling claw terminators, DC, Lash Whip Bone Sword Warriors, Thousand Sons, Tau Plasma guns, Plasma cannons.... Most armies have a lot of points sunk into MEQ killing, and it's largely wasted points or less than ideal weapon choices when fighting IG.

It is not MEQ, correct, but you are talking about the guard for some reason. This army is completely mounted, and when you pop a chimera, usually you lose about half the squad inside anyway. Irrelevant point. Once the vehicle is done, you move on.

schadenfreude wrote:2) Target Saturation & expandability: It has a LOT of front AV12 targets, and they are all expendable. It's a weakness in KP missions, but 2/3 missions are objective based missions. Most armies don't have enough AV to take out the numbers of AV12 targets. Once a Chimera is popped any surviving members of a squad are killed so easily uber anti personal weapons are also wasted points spent on overkill.

No, it has some completely expendable targets, and many that are linchpins to the army. If you get shots on the important things in this list (vs most mech, the vendettas and the hydras) there is nothing left for it to come back from.

The real reason people were losing to this is because:

a) They didn't go first.
b) When they went second, they didn't reserve.

It depends on glass cannons that shoot great, but die immediately to any fire that comes to bear on it.

...also foot lists lose to it, but they don't really win games anyway.

Well actually squads need to be finished off after their transport is popped. Usually 2/3 of the squad takes a wound if their Chimera assplodes. Round 6.666 up to 8 for bad luck and a squad of melta vets still has 2 vets with melta guns that don't have to make an armor save. Heavy weapon teams can take a wound and still shoot their big gun. The squad inside will almost always be near full special/heavy weapons firepower after their ride is destroyed, so it needs to die. The trick is finding ways to kill the damaged & near dead glass cannon squad without excessive overkill.

DarthDiggler wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

"You can Turbo-Boost a Jet-Council AND get fortune cast on them without leaving the Farseer off to the side. Simply stagger your deployment and turbo-boost the warlocks, leaving the last one in the line 13.11 inches away from the Farseer's starting position, then simply move him 12 and end within 2' thus attaching the Farseer to the squad and keeping your 3+ (now re-roll able) cover save.(No HE doesn't get a 3+ cover save, be careful how you allocate)"

Quoted from an article, so grain of salt, but it is possible by strict RaW.

You can also Turbo boost with a fortune by having two farseers on the table or two jetseer councils. One to fortune the Turboboosters. Heck you can have 2 Jetseer councils and Eldrad and get them both fortuned and turboboosted on turn 1. The idea that "leaf blower' will put 100 wounds on the Council is laughable. Only if there is zero terrain and the Council boosts to the most optimal spot in the center of the IG line. With half a brain the council will only be in range of half the IG army. An all SM Bikes list plays havoc with the IG 'Leaf Blower" list and one won the Big Waagh last year, if I remember correctly.

Yes that was a fellow Blade n Bolter Brian and his ultramarines biker list. Having personally gone against it twice (once in 'ard boyz), I can tell you that it has the necessary tools to take on the leaf blower and then some. Took ever lance/blaster/dissinetegrator/wyche I had to pull out a draw.

The problem with the leaf blower list is that people will start building lists specifically to take it on, and then loose to something like footslogger guard or MEQ.

Or, judging from the number of jetseers, something that doesn't allow cover saves.

Baron: An example of a list that would be a hard counter to 'Leafblower' would be razorback spam, which is still very effective against other lists.

Fearspect wrote:Baron: An example of a list that would be a hard counter to 'Leafblower' would be razorback spam, which is still very effective against other lists.

Sorry... No razorback spam is not a hard counter and actually is the worst idea ever. You spend too many points on razorback spam and you don't have enough shots. On top of being AV 11 its going to go all down hill from there.

Goatboy has tried it countless times and it goes bad for him really fast.

Was he running Lascannon/Plasmagun razorbacks? Because you really only have the hydras, the two vendettas and your multi-laser shots that are threats.

lascannon with plasma guns are the worst thing you can take because then its way to expensive, Best option if you are going to do it is take the twin linked las cannon...

The whole army is a threat to razorbacks because every weapon can punch through the Armour and its cheaper point to point then the 55 point razorback + upgrade...


you have manticores, medusa, chimera, vendettas, and hydras that are threat to the razorbacks.

if they take assault cannons you out range them and can get a good turn or two of shooting even if they go first. If they have lascannon plasma guns they have a good chance of missing first and second turn with the las cannon and plasma guns are not in range to do anything If you have 8 razorbacks you miss with 3, you hit with 5 and you should get 1-2 pens and 1 glance against a chimera or a Vendetta because more then likely they wouldn't have a cover save. All that shooting from Razorbacks and you might blow up one or two out of 8 of them. Now if you have predators more then likely those dakka predators they are not going to do much either till you get side shots and same goes with Rifilemen dreads.


if someone has 8 chimeras and they fire first or even second because you went first and you killed one or two of them then they are on the same level as the razorbacks and should either pen/ glance anywhere from 2-4 Razorbacks. Which then goes bad for the razorbacks because once you stop them for shooting they can't do anything else.

Then start adding in Hydras, Vendettas and other heavy support options from the IG book it goes down hill very quick.

You use razorbacks to supplement your army in ways that it needs to be done. If you are oging to use razorbacks you take them with Blood angels because they are fast and you can still get a decent squad inside of it.

razorback spam is just not cost efficient and is another gimmick that doesn't work in 40k.

Could 8 Deff Rollaed battlewagons work? You can do this I checked.

Not to derail the thread but I have a tactical question for those who know the "leaf blower" list. I'm taking DE and I do the raider spam what can I do against them? Is their no hope for DE or is there something I can do?

anouther exelent counter to the leaf blower is deep stiking assault melta heavy blood angels also more effective against other lists.

Deff Jaw wrote:Could 8 Deff Rollaed battlewagons work? You can do this I checked.

it would give anyone a hard time if they can't get side shots on the battlewagons and there was a big mek in there.

Problem is with that many battlewagons there usually isn't a lot of guys inside the battlewagons to do a lot of damage afterward. Its just making sure you blow out the right battlewagon and move forward from there. Now if you had 4 battlewagon and 40 nobz it would give most other list a run for their money but I don't know if you can get that many into a 2500 point list.

Nob squads run around 350-400 points lightly armed and with Uge Choppaz, but then they aren't unique and can't spread wounds. However, Biker Nobz plus Battlewagons full of boyz, Lootaz and Burnaz and a Big Mek can be a nasty list.

so ummm DashofPepper's list?

Now that the IQ's are soon to be no longer legal, or so I've heard, this is all largely moot, anyway?

BaronIveagh wrote:Now that the IQ's are soon to be no longer legal, or so I've heard, this is all largely moot, anyway?

what? you know thats just rumor right? I mean eventually it will happen, but for the rest of the year prolly, people will have to deal with this.

BaronIveagh wrote:Now that the IQ's are soon to be no longer legal, or so I've heard, this is all largely moot, anyway?

The inquisitor was just a gimmick and it really won't be that much of a deal with it. People put too much value into the inquisitor with mystics.

The real thing is the hood and that is going to be the trouble with IG but even still your not going to care that much about it.

An 8 battle wagon list requires to warbosses for HQ so that 2 groups of Nobs can be purchased as troops. It's a flawed list because it can't have any big meks, and wagons need big meks to give them the 4+ cover save. A 7 wagon list could have 1 big mek, and a 6 wagon list could have 2 meks. A 6 wagon list with 2 mek to give all the wagon a 4+ cover save has enough points left over for other stuff to be competitive against leaf blower.

Razorback Spam is a solid mech list, saying Razorback Spam sucks is saying mech suckss. It has solid firewpower and gives SM much needed added mobility. Razorback spam is a good list, but not good against leaf blower. Razorback Spam is playing the exact same game as Leaf BLower, it play's into Leaf Blower's game, but Leaf Blower outguns Razorback Spam. Challenging AV 12 Chimeras to a range slugging match with AV11 Razor Backs isn't a good idea. If you want to beat a specialized list like leafblower then you've either got to do what it does better, or do something else different and force the game to be fought on your terms.

I was just throwing it out there as an idea. Even though I wouldn't do it.

The "Leaf Blower" is a terrible list that won through the sheer luck of the person playing it.

BobTheChainsaw wrote:The "Leaf Blower" is a terrible list that won through the sheer luck of the person playing it.

Troll? Or idiot? I can't decide... I feel like starting a poll about it.

I have personaly gone against this list and the person that used had some pretty crappy rolls over all and he still blasted apart my ork army. SO A LEAF BLOWER LIST IS NOT CRAPPY NOR IS THE GUY WHO USED VERY LUCKY! Don't be stupid.

My favorite way to attack mechanized shooting armies is to assault infantry and tanks with the same unit. It ensures that you don't overkill the infantry squad and potentially takes down another vehicle (or 2).