This is not a thread to discuss the species of the Emperor.
It does not matter if he is a human, an Old One, the Hive Mind, or a lost C'Tan.
All I want to know is, in your opinion, is the Emperor a good guy or a bad guy?

A good Emperor would have humanity's well-being as his first priority.
A good Emperor could still be a manipulative er, but his messings around would be for the good of humankind.
A good Emperor wouldn't abandon the Great Crusade for a chance at godhood.

A bad Emperor would be trying to gain and hold power only for himself and not care about humanuty at all.
A bad Emperor would screw around with things for personal gain.
A bad Emperor would abandon his "sons" and his people in a moment.

This is what I am worrying about; the eventual reveal (during the HH series, probably) of what the Emperor is/was really up to. There is evidence that he is indeed a manipulative dunghill (Void Dragon) but this is offset by his apparent desire to hold humans together through any means possible. His actions during the Great Crusade seem to be noble, but he still forces his dogma on others and wages war with unwilling human populations with gusto. Is this him trying to get humanity put back together, or does he not care about the species he leads?
John Grammaticus saw into the Emperor's mind, and saw death and horror. Is this a reveal of the future, or is the Emperor a warmongering despot?
The visions that Erebus showed to Horus of the Emperor abandoning the primarchs to the warp were created by Chaos, but is there some truth to them?
Is the Emperor really pursuing godhood at the time of the Heresy?
What was he working on that is more important than fighting Horus?

These things bother me. Personally, I want the Emperor to be good; to be a protector of humans with noble intentions, even if everything went to pot in the end.
I don't want Erebus to be right.
I want at least one part of the horrific nightmare of the far future to be good and pure.
But this may not be the case.

Well, that's enough from me. What do you think? Good or bad?

(Sorry for any huge spelling errors)

Lost C'tan? Who came up with that theory lol

All these theroys are ridiculous we all know this "emperor" person is really THE EMPARAH!

"Good" and "Bad" are for people who have never taken a philosophy course. Or been living in a dream world all their life.

Humans need strict leadership or we will squabble and undermine each other. The Emperor is there to provide it. He asks for unquestioning obedience because dissent means hesitation. Hesitation means the death of the species. He's in the position of power to make sure things get done, all he needs is for people to get on board with human supremacy in the galaxy.

But I guess too many of the Traitors had ego issues and couldn't take a bit of criticism. Or they just felt like whining. Whatever. Good riddance.

He was a random tyrant that did what any other random tyrant could have accomplished with the giant pile of Power Armor and Bolter STCs the Emperor scavenged off of Earth, and a group of isolated human worlds unprepared for an invasion of STC-tech wielding soldiers.

Skip forward 10,000 years and his modest deeds have been exaggerated out of all perspective. You've got extremists who think he's a god because killing hundreds of psykers every day is noticable to other psykers and the Emperor somehow has some affect on that, or that he's some kind of shaman soul-katamari psyker thing that will be reborn as a spacebaby, or whatever. Neatly avoiding questions such as 'didn't humanity have a better empire during the 'dark' age of technology, before the Emperor lead things?' or 'what about that time an Ork would've killed the Emperor if Horus hadn't bailed him out?'

He was either a lucky but inevitably fallible warlord, or he's a psyker-buoy soul-katamari immortal ancient ultimate-scientist/warrior/leader with psychic powers great enough to destroy souls and fight off four chaos gods and the entirety of the warp simultaneously yet he gets beat down by random orks and can't see a chaos rebellion coming after being warned by ancient Eldar, his own sons, and seeing his opponents burning his worlds while flying flags that read 'I love Chaos, seriously dude I'm a traitor'.

Occams razor doesn't even begin to cut it.

Christ. Not another one of these threads.

alexwars1 wrote:Christ. Not another one of these threads.

i second that motion


also, good and evil dont exist, its all perspective.

Alex, your sig pretty much ends your comment. Example: "why aren't there female space marines?" Answer: "Oh god not again, quickly! SMASH 'EM UP BOYZ!!!"

Alex: I am sorry that I have created one of "these threads". In my defence, this topic is actually relevent in some way to the game, and isn't just random scribblings about gender roles among Space Marines.

Rube: So, a vote for "overrated"? I'd buy that.

Atrox: Yay! Someone else who thinks the way I do about Chaos! It seems that, if you are using my criteria, you've voted for "good".

Retribution: I just made up the theory about lost C'Tan. It seemed about as plausable as anything else.

Do not FEAR!

Buy your definition the Emperor is good.

SPOILER THOUSANDS SONS

Rube wrote:He was a random tyrant that did what any other random tyrant could have accomplished with the giant pile of Power Armor and Bolter STCs the Emperor scavenged off of Earth, and a group of isolated human worlds unprepared for an invasion of STC-tech wielding soldiers.

Skip forward 10,000 years and his modest deeds have been exaggerated out of all perspective. You've got extremists who think he's a god because killing hundreds of psykers every day is noticable to other psykers and the Emperor somehow has some affect on that, or that he's some kind of shaman soul-katamari psyker thing that will be reborn as a spacebaby, or whatever. Neatly avoiding questions such as 'didn't humanity have a better empire during the 'dark' age of technology, before the Emperor lead things?' or 'what about that time an Ork would've killed the Emperor if Horus hadn't bailed him out?'

He was either a lucky but inevitably fallible warlord, or he's a psyker-buoy soul-katamari immortal ancient ultimate-scientist/warrior/leader with psychic powers great enough to destroy souls and fight off four chaos gods and the entirety of the warp simultaneously yet he gets beat down by random orks and can't see a chaos rebellion coming after being warned by ancient Eldar, his own sons, and seeing his opponents burning his worlds while flying flags that read 'I love Chaos, seriously dude I'm a traitor'.

Occams razor doesn't even begin to cut it.

We need to keep in mind that even if the Emperor was the most powerful psyker/warrior/genius to ever walk amongst men, he was still human.

Maybe he ignored the Eldar warning because the Eldar are filthy, arrogant xenos? Maybe he underestimated the power of Chaos? Maybe his love for all humanity, even his super-engineered sons, drove him to blindness towards their actions? He has feelings and he can make mistakes.

I believe that the Emperor did not want to become a god; and even if he had to it would be for the sake of humanity. He obviously likes to rule with the point of a sword, but that is simply the steps that need to be taken to ensure the survival of humanity in the Grimdarkness.

I doubt that most of the Dark Ages of Technology were a happy paradise, I'm sure there was just as much, if not more, death and destruction.

As for getting almost beaten by an ork...well those things can get pretty fething big.

Also, if the Emperor was a warmongering death-machine, don't you think he would be a little more inclined to chaos? Maybe a champion of Khorne? Or was he immune to Chaos? (which would make him something pretty special)

Anywho, for taking the necessary steps to ensure the survival of the species (one that most of us belong to...I think) I suppose he would be considered "good". If you think that people who allow you to exist are "good"

As to the question of what the Emperor was working on right before the Heresy in his secret underground super-lab...no idea. maybe the new HH books will deliver some insight. Or just tell us the Emperor was an evil bastard.

He's human, and therefore as fallible as the rest of them. I vote Neutral!

steempunk wrote:Maybe he ignored the Eldar warning because the Eldar are filthy, arrogant xenos?

If he was as great a psyker and as ancient as the Imperials believed, surely he would've known that the Eldar's perceived perfidiousness was due to their own potent psychic farseeing potential? Also, wasn't he supposed to be working with the Eldar on his webway gate on Terra?

steempunk wrote:Maybe he underestimated the power of Chaos?

Which is contrary to how he is portrayed... that's kind of my point!

steempunk wrote:Maybe his love for all humanity, even his super-engineered sons, drove him to blindness towards their actions? He has feelings and he can make mistakes.

Generally speaking, you don't take things you love and fling them toward the ass-end of the galaxy to live a life of unceasing hellish war in the full knowledge that they will eventually, inevitably fall in battle, dying on some forsaken alien world in a pool of their own blood.

steempunk wrote:I doubt that most of the Dark Ages of Technology were a happy paradise, I'm sure there was just as much, if not more, death and destruction.

There was war, certainly, but by all accounts it was a golden age for humanity! The moniker 'dark age' was appended by the current progress-fearing Imperium. It was the apex of humanity, when they initially colonised and terraformed the worlds that the Emperor merely reclaimed and built the STCs that he took.

steempunk wrote:As for getting almost beaten by an ork...well those things can get pretty fething big.

Seriously... gestalt immortal psyker capable of destroying souls > ork of any size! ;P

steempunk wrote:Also, if the Emperor was a warmongering death-machine, don't you think he would be a little more inclined to chaos? Maybe a champion of Khorne? Or was he immune to Chaos? (which would make him something pretty special)

Yeah, he could've been a Chaos champion.

steempunk wrote:As to the question of what the Emperor was working on right before the Heresy in his secret underground super-lab...no idea. maybe the new HH books will deliver some insight. Or just tell us the Emperor was an evil bastard.

He was working on either gaining access to the webway, or building a new webway (can't remember exactly). The golden throne is supposed to be a gateway sitting on the entrance, and a psyker needs to sit on it to keep the gateway closed so that daemons don't pour out and into the Imperial palace. That's how Malcador died, sitting on the throne while the Emperor was getting his lungs handed to him by Horus.

Grotzooka wrote:This is what I am worrying about; the eventual reveal (during the HH series, probably) of what the Emperor is/was really up to.

I doubt GW will ever reveal anything definitive. They will want to keep all of us speculatic and adding to the mystery.

Good guy for sure. It's not really his fault the imperium became corrupt in his... indesposal

the emperor is a corpse which should be left to rot. the humans should get their thumbs out of their arse and actually start looking out for each other and get a move on. F**k the lazy gakkers who sit in their hover chairs drinking amasec. they should also forget the cult mechanicus and bring back all those *heretical;xenos;witchy* stuff and actually look in the back room archives to realise that the ritual of lower-rear cleansing is just wiping your arse with toilet paper, just with more gusto and emphasis added.

now onto topic, the emperor is bad in my opinion. mainly because he sits around doing nothing (since he is a corpse) and really the thing which is keeping the warp going or whatever is just electrics plugged into him. ofcourse they couldnt do the same to a human as it would fry their brain, so they just did it to anything static. a skelington is good enough.

dark6spectre wrote:the emperor is a corpse which should be left to rot. the humans should get their thumbs out of their arse and actually start looking out for each other and get a move on. F**k the lazy gakkers who sit in their hover chairs drinking amasec. they should also forget the cult mechanicus and bring back all those *heretical;xenos;witchy* stuff and actually look in the back room archives to realise that the ritual of lower-rear cleansing is just wiping your arse with toilet paper, just with more gusto and emphasis added.

now onto topic, the emperor is bad in my opinion. mainly because he sits around doing nothing (since he is a corpse) and really the thing which is keeping the warp going or whatever is just electrics plugged into him. ofcourse they couldnt do the same to a human as it would fry their brain, so they just did it to anything static. a skelington is good enough.

About the first part: I think you have just provided an answer to the question of how to achieve world peace. If only we had known all along that it was this simple! Maybe we can start by calling the lads in the Middle East and tell them to "get their thumbs out of their arses and start looking out for eachother?

About the latter part: judging by what you typed I am not quite sure you have a good understanding of what the whole Golden Throne/Emperor concept is. Why all the fuss when just a "skelington" with electrics does just fine too

TBD i felt like saying gibberish ok ^_^. i didnt think that much either....

The Emperor is not good or evil.
The Emperor is Chuck Norris.

Our Emperor suffers pain beyond comprehension ever second of every day, his life is a neverending experience of constant agony and he'd want nothing more than to let go and die.

But he doesn't.

He carries on for HUMANITY, for his children.

That's why he's better than Jesus, since Jesus just died once innit... Oooh, I might go repost this as a controversial post...

MekanobSamael wrote:The Emperor is not good or evil.
The Emperor is Chuck Norris.

QFT!

the more i read of the HH Books the more i start to dislike the imperium.

I like how its not as black and white as it used to be,
chaos are dirty traitors done
Imperium are good and pure done
its nice to fel sympathy toward the primarchs that fell

I FEEL THE WARP OVERTAKING ME !!!!!!
it is a good pain

MekanobSamael wrote:The Emperor is not good or evil.
The Emperor is Chuck Norris.

Or is Chuck Norris the Emperor?

Anyway, I beleive that he is doing what he beleived is right, same as everyone else in the galaxy. I mean, I don't care who you are, killing entire planets to destroy small cults in Exterminatus could never be classified as good. Nor could things like Commisars. It's one of the things that makes me like Warhammer 40k so much: They may be the easiest to identify with, but Humans are in no way, shape or form "good guys"

The Emporer is pro-humanity. So, from my point of view, good.

The Emporer is vehemently against any sort of religion. So, from my point of view, bad.

He's kind of a grey area.

Personally I think if some of the things humanity does in 40k are the emperors doing then he is bad.

Exarch_Nektel wrote:The Emporer is pro-humanity. So, from my point of view, good.

The Emporer is vehemently against any sort of religion. So, from my point of view, bad.

He's kind of a grey area.

So being an atheist can cancel out loving humanity? What weird world do you live in, where the only way a person can be good is by loving Jesus/Yahweh/Allah/Satan/Krishna/Buddha/Zeus/Odin?

The word bearers were evangelist. They invented the Cult of the Emperor. He opposeed this, and all other forms of religion, because he knew what the chaos gods were. Chaos GODS.

Klawz wrote:

Exarch_Nektel wrote:The Emporer is pro-humanity. So, from my point of view, good.

The Emporer is vehemently against any sort of religion. So, from my point of view, bad.

He's kind of a grey area.

So being an atheist can cancel out loving humanity? What weird world do you live in, where the only way a person can be good is by loving Jesus/Yahweh/Allah/Satan/Krishna/Buddha/Zeus/Odin?

The word bearers were evangelist. They invented the Cult of the Emperor. He opposeed this, and all other forms of religion, because he knew what the chaos gods were. Chaos GODS.

QFT.

Also find it amusing that being against religion is the main qualm one could have... as opposed to exterminatus, genocide, etc.

BrotherAtrox wrote:"Good" and "Bad" are for people who have never taken a philosophy course. Or been living in a dream world all their life.

Humans need strict leadership or we will squabble and undermine each other. The Emperor is there to provide it. He asks for unquestioning obedience because dissent means hesitation. Hesitation means the death of the species. He's in the position of power to make sure things get done, all he needs is for people to get on board with human supremacy in the galaxy.

But I guess too many of the Traitors had ego issues and couldn't take a bit of criticism. Or they just felt like whining. Whatever. Good riddance.

Well if I were Magnus and I saw what the Emperor had planned for me, I wouldn't be too keen in keeping with his flag either.

The Emperor is a toolbag. Sorry, but he is. He is the ultimate manipulator and deceiver. I mean look at how he has the Adeptus Mechanicus fooled on the whole Machine-God thing...talk about epic lie.

When the Alpha Legion learns what it learns, what choice did they have? And if the Alpha Legion found that out, then how the hell does the Emperor still try and persevere (surely he must know the outcomes as well?!)? Because he is the ultimate douche bag who wants complete and utter control over humanity one way or the other. He might be opposed to gods and such in life, but in his eternal slumber I am sure he is just fine with all these ignorant masses worshiping him.

The 40K universe is that much more bleak when the only answer to humanity's survival is to worship an overwhelmingly dickheaded tyrant and to let him rule over you with an iron fist.

In our world, the Tau "greater good" concept would be the accepted one (I would hope) not the Emperors heavy handed fascist state.

Feth the Emperor.

In our world, the Tau "greater good" concept would be the accepted one (I would hope) not the Emperors heavy handed fascist state.

Feth the Emperor.

The emperor was a big enough threat to chaos to the point that they got involved and twisted Horus and most of the other primarchs to turn against him. I think the emperor should at least told Horus of his plans of the gateway before he decided to leave the battle. I think Chaos wanted the emperor gone because he was a bit on the atheist side and against religion. Chaos needs humans to worship them to give them strength. So the emperor had to go. I don't think the emperor was evil. He could of taken over humanity at anytime if he was truely the power hungery type. In the future he saw that there were bigger threats to humanity and if we were to stay divided we would of been wiped out by the 'nids, orks, Tau, and other aliens.

tigonesskay wrote:The emperor was a big enough threat to chaos to the point that they got involved and twisted Horus and most of the other primarchs to turn against him. I think the emperor should at least told Horus of his plans of the gateway before he decided to leave the battle. I think Chaos wanted the emperor gone because he was a bit on the atheist side and against religion. Chaos needs humans to worship them to give them strength. So the emperor had to go. I don't think the emperor was evil. He could of taken over humanity at anytime if he was truely the power hungery type. In the future he saw that there were bigger threats to humanity and if we were to stay divided we would of been wiped out by the 'nids, orks, Tau, and other aliens.

Not true. Chaos is and always will be. Ask the Eldar. Hell, ask the Old Ones.

The Emperor DID take over humanity with one swoop. It was called the Great Crusade! Are you not familiar with the canon?

You guys are kind of forgetting that the Emperor is not a normal man... and thus kind of violates the whole equality for the many argument.

Why should we say we'd like an egalitarian society if there were super humans who could rule over us?

Firesolved wrote:

tigonesskay wrote:The emperor was a big enough threat to chaos to the point that they got involved and twisted Horus and most of the other primarchs to turn against him. I think the emperor should at least told Horus of his plans of the gateway before he decided to leave the battle. I think Chaos wanted the emperor gone because he was a bit on the atheist side and against religion. Chaos needs humans to worship them to give them strength. So the emperor had to go. I don't think the emperor was evil. He could of taken over humanity at anytime if he was truely the power hungery type. In the future he saw that there were bigger threats to humanity and if we were to stay divided we would of been wiped out by the 'nids, orks, Tau, and other aliens.

Not true. Chaos is and always will be. Ask the Eldar. Hell, ask the Old Ones.

The Emperor DID take over humanity with one swoop. It was called the Great Crusade! Are you not familiar with the canon?

There's no question that the Emperor took over humanity. Firesolved, I take it you believe the takeover was hostile in nature? And by hostile, I mean that he meant humans as a whole harm.

Grotzooka wrote:

Firesolved wrote:

tigonesskay wrote:The emperor was a big enough threat to chaos to the point that they got involved and twisted Horus and most of the other primarchs to turn against him. I think the emperor should at least told Horus of his plans of the gateway before he decided to leave the battle. I think Chaos wanted the emperor gone because he was a bit on the atheist side and against religion. Chaos needs humans to worship them to give them strength. So the emperor had to go. I don't think the emperor was evil. He could of taken over humanity at anytime if he was truely the power hungery type. In the future he saw that there were bigger threats to humanity and if we were to stay divided we would of been wiped out by the 'nids, orks, Tau, and other aliens.

Not true. Chaos is and always will be. Ask the Eldar. Hell, ask the Old Ones.

The Emperor DID take over humanity with one swoop. It was called the Great Crusade! Are you not familiar with the canon?

There's no question that the Emperor took over humanity. Firesolved, I take it you believe the takeover was hostile in nature? And by hostile, I mean that he meant humans as a whole harm.

Dude. Whenever you say, "Accept my terms or die", that is hostile. Or do you also think Hitler was also a benevolent saint who worked for the betterment of humankind?

((Hitler was confined to Earth at least; The Emperor started with Earth, succeeded, then went on to "unite" humanity...whether they wanted it or not...just read the Space Wolf tale from the Tales of Heresy. If you continue to disagree then I hope to dear god that you do not vote.))

FOR THE EMPRAH!

yup the heresy detector is definately reading this as heretical

Firesolved wrote:

Grotzooka wrote:

Firesolved wrote:

tigonesskay wrote:The emperor was a big enough threat to chaos to the point that they got involved and twisted Horus and most of the other primarchs to turn against him. I think the emperor should at least told Horus of his plans of the gateway before he decided to leave the battle. I think Chaos wanted the emperor gone because he was a bit on the atheist side and against religion. Chaos needs humans to worship them to give them strength. So the emperor had to go. I don't think the emperor was evil. He could of taken over humanity at anytime if he was truely the power hungery type. In the future he saw that there were bigger threats to humanity and if we were to stay divided we would of been wiped out by the 'nids, orks, Tau, and other aliens.

Not true. Chaos is and always will be. Ask the Eldar. Hell, ask the Old Ones.

The Emperor DID take over humanity with one swoop. It was called the Great Crusade! Are you not familiar with the canon?

There's no question that the Emperor took over humanity. Firesolved, I take it you believe the takeover was hostile in nature? And by hostile, I mean that he meant humans as a whole harm.

Dude. Whenever you say, "Accept my terms or die", that is hostile. Or do you also think Hitler was also a benevolent saint who worked for the betterment of humankind?

((Hitler was confined to Earth at least; The Emperor started with Earth, succeeded, then went on to "unite" humanity...whether they wanted it or not...just read the Space Wolf tale from the Tales of Heresy. If you continue to disagree then I hope to dear god that you do not vote.))

Hmmm.
I would argue that Hitler had no grand plan and was an evil evil evil evil evil demon with the aim of destroying most of humanity... But your point is a good one. I'd actually forgotten about that Space Wolf story. Good example.

Hitler's ultimate plan was world domination and "living space" for his "superior race".

Thankfully the Emperor has transcended race and ethnicity but his whole "Accept my doctrine or die" thing still stinks of subjugation. And subjugation to me isn't the way of a benevolent leader with the Imperium's well-being in mind. It sounds to me that the Emperor is using the Imperium for his own means. Whatever those goals are are unknown and will probably remain unknown for a long time but the Emperor is not a good guy. I am fairly sure of that.

The word bearers and space wolves are evil. Not the emperor! How dare they kill a planet of bird loving humanoids?

Samus_aran115 wrote:The word bearers and space wolves are evil. Not the emperor! How dare they kill a planet of bird loving humanoids?

In the name of the Emperor. And at that time, Horus hadn't taken over the Crusade yet. The word to destroy non-compliant worlds came straight from the Emperor.

You have fallen from the Emperors light,

this is a inexcusable sin

You are henceforth declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

you shall be put to death.

Toeko wrote:You have fallen from the Emperors light,

this is a inexcusable sin

You are henceforth declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

you shall be put to death.

HA HA! The secret is out, I might as well let go of my identity as an anonymous forum poster. I am really a C'Tan let loose in the past to sow disruption and dissent among the future followers of the Emperor.

Mission ACCOMPLISHED!

See you in thirty-eight thousand years, SUCKERS!

*dramatic ninja smoke and whooshing noise*

Firesolved wrote:

Toeko wrote:You have fallen from the Emperors light,

this is a inexcusable sin

You are henceforth declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

you shall be put to death.

HA HA! The secret is out, I might as well let go of my identity as an anonymous forum poster. I am really a C'Tan let loose in the past to sow disruption and dissent among the future followers of the Emperor.

Mission ACCOMPLISHED!

See you in thirty-eight thousand years, SUCKERS!

*dramatic ninja smoke and whooshing noise*

Curses! Foiled again!

Quick to the Black Ship!

Firesolved wrote:Hitler's ultimate plan was world domination and "living space" for his "superior race".

Thankfully the Emperor has transcended race and ethnicity but his whole "Accept my doctrine or die" thing still stinks of subjugation. And subjugation to me isn't the way of a benevolent leader with the Imperium's well-being in mind. It sounds to me that the Emperor is using the Imperium for his own means. Whatever those goals are are unknown and will probably remain unknown for a long time but the Emperor is not a good guy. I am fairly sure of that.

Nope, the Emperor was into his genetically inferior purging just as much as Hitler. Moreso actually, because this is 40k, and anything bad in 40k is nine thousand times worse than the worse things to ever actually occur.

There's a few mentions in the HH books about Mechanicum Genetors determining whether a population is considered genetically pure enough to be allowed into the Imperium. If they don't make the standard, every last man, woman, and infant is murdered without mercy and their history and culture burned. Sound familiar? This is before all the religious fanaticism, by the by, so this is how a 'scientific' Imperium viewed often peaceful and isolationist races.

Then there's the whole deal with raising humanity to it's psychic potential, so that they can free themselves from daemonic influence and no longer fear the warp. That plan was put into action by the Emperor, and would eventually culminate in the culling of all non-psychic humans.

/godwinned

In the futcher, Eldrads gost pushd Creed and Tzeentch into the well of eturnidy. when they woke up they were fused into one body that was the empra of mancind.


I think Spes marene is a pretty cool guy.

Eh runs through spes and doesn't afraid of anything.

I don't find Emperor good or evil.I view him as a man who just wanted to save humanity no matter the cost(which could be viewed as evil since a billions died during the great crusade).
I wonder what would happen if he told Horus and the other primarchs that he would returning to Terra to complete the Webway project.

Rube wrote:

Firesolved wrote:Hitler's ultimate plan was world domination and "living space" for his "superior race".

Thankfully the Emperor has transcended race and ethnicity but his whole "Accept my doctrine or die" thing still stinks of subjugation. And subjugation to me isn't the way of a benevolent leader with the Imperium's well-being in mind. It sounds to me that the Emperor is using the Imperium for his own means. Whatever those goals are are unknown and will probably remain unknown for a long time but the Emperor is not a good guy. I am fairly sure of that.

Nope, the Emperor was into his genetically inferior purging just as much as Hitler. Moreso actually, because this is 40k, and anything bad in 40k is nine thousand times worse than the worse things to ever actually occur.

There's a few mentions in the HH books about Mechanicum Genetors determining whether a population is considered genetically pure enough to be allowed into the Imperium. If they don't make the standard, every last man, woman, and infant is murdered without mercy and their history and culture burned. Sound familiar? This is before all the religious fanaticism, by the by, so this is how a 'scientific' Imperium viewed often peaceful and isolationist races.

Then there's the whole deal with raising humanity to it's psychic potential, so that they can free themselves from daemonic influence and no longer fear the warp. That plan was put into action by the Emperor, and would eventually culminate in the culling of all non-psychic humans.

/godwinned

Sooooooooooo the Emperor really is a bad guy?

((maybe the C'Tan aren't so bad after all))

Grotzooka wrote:
All I want to know is, in your opinion, is the Emperor a good guy or a bad guy?

First of all, who defines what good or bad is? I think it depends on which side of the pointed & loaded bolter you are on!

Good & Bad is such a black & white western/judeo christian view of things.

Everything is in shades of grey.There is no "good" or "bad" there are levels of choices which are better or worse for fellow man.

Remember, history is written by the winners and the losers are always villianized. Napoleon was loved by his people, Hitler was loved by his people, Caesar was loved by his people...but eventually the tides turn....

Now to answer the question, I'd say the emperor has a solid vision of how things should be (right or wrong from one's own stand point), and the willpower and drive to get it done. But nothing anyone ever does will fully 100% satisfy or even benefit everyone. Someone, somewhere (and in 40k universe, other races and aliens) will suffer from one man's grand vision of how he thinks the universe should be. Man playing god.

So in the most simple answer, he is a dictator, hell bent on his own pride and glory. Selfish desires lead to self destruction. He's a bad man.....IMHO.

He's not questing for godhood. He realized Horus could do his military job just as well, and retreated to Terra to study the Warp and how humanity could master it, and to work on the Astronomican.

Erebus was merely playing on Horus's insecurities, and did so quite well. Everything he said was a lie. Later, a Daemon who contacts Horus mentions that chaos "has no interest in your world." Uh-huh.

Ostrakon wrote:He's not questing for godhood. He realized Horus could do his military job just as well, and retreated to Terra to study the Warp and how humanity could master it, and to work on the Astronomican.

Erebus was merely playing on Horus's insecurities, and did so quite well. Everything he said was a lie. Later, a Daemon who contacts Horus mentions that chaos "has no interest in your world." Uh-huh.

He wasn't studying the Warp. He was undertaking research to utilize the Eldar's webway.

Magnus is by far my favorite primarch and the Emperor planned on betraying him far before the Nikea Hearing. I mean, sitting your son on a Golden Throne for eternity so he could be the beacon in the webway? If he isn't a "bad guy" then he is at least a bad parent.

But seriously, Erebus didn't lie about everything. Horus was totally right about the Emperor taking credit for all his hard work. The Emperor back in his accursed Palace doing things that he wouldn't even tell his supposedly most beloved son AND taking the glory from Horus for each victory won? I would say feth that too.

The Emperor was a conqueror. Don't forget many of History's most beloved and greatest people were conquerors. America for example was not created and expanded by wishful thinking. It was created by General Washinton.
The Imperium has fallen a long, long, long way from what the Emperor intended. Mostly due to religon: the thing he opposed the most.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Emperor was a conqueror. Don't forget many of History's most beloved and greatest people were conquerors. America for example was not created and expanded by wishful thinking. It was created by General Washinton.

What? America wasn't created by ol' Georgie. I am pretty sure the writers of the Declaration of Independence had something to do with the forming of America. That "wishful thinking" of a free country that would embrace liberty and justice for all (as it was defined back then anyways) was the inspiration for the brave acts of our Continental Army. Without that "wishful thinking" there would be no flame of ambition and lust for freedom in the men that fought against the Redcoats.

There isn't quite a Canadian equivalent that I know of so that I could put it into perspective for you (the rebellions in upper and lower Canada were important but eventually crushed; poor William Mackenzie and Robert Nelson).

The Emperor is on such a high horse that he says "Look if you don't get inspiration from my ideas and thoughts, we're gonna kill you. Inspired yet?". I just cannot respect that.

Firesolved wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Emperor was a conqueror. Don't forget many of History's most beloved and greatest people were conquerors. America for example was not created and expanded by wishful thinking. It was created by General Washinton.

What? America wasn't created by ol' Georgie. I am pretty sure the writers of the Declaration of Independence had something to do with the forming of America. That "wishful thinking" of a free country that would embrace liberty and justice for all (as it was defined back then anyways) was the inspiration for the brave acts of our Continental Army. Without that "wishful thinking" there would be no flame of ambition and lust for freedom in the men that fought against the Redcoats.

There isn't quite a Canadian equivalent that I know of so that I could put it into perspective for you (the rebellions in upper and lower Canada were important but eventually crushed; poor William Mackenzie and Robert Nelson).

The Emperor is on such a high horse that he says "Look if you don't get inspiration from my ideas and thoughts, we're gonna kill you. Inspired yet?". I just cannot respect that.

America was born in the fires of war. They then went out and conquered the indigenoud people while expanding. While that part has since become controversial most Americans are pretty pround of their militaristic birth.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:America was born in the fires of war. They then went out and conquered the indigenoud people while expanding. While that part has since become controversial most Americans are pretty pround of their militaristic birth.

The same could be said for any Empire. Look at Britain. Wanna talk about brutal...

Firesolved wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:He's not questing for godhood. He realized Horus could do his military job just as well, and retreated to Terra to study the Warp and how humanity could master it, and to work on the Astronomican.

Erebus was merely playing on Horus's insecurities, and did so quite well. Everything he said was a lie. Later, a Daemon who contacts Horus mentions that chaos "has no interest in your world." Uh-huh.

He wasn't studying the Warp. He was undertaking research to utilize the Eldar's webway.

Magnus is by far my favorite primarch and the Emperor planned on betraying him far before the Nikea Hearing. I mean, sitting your son on a Golden Throne for eternity so he could be the beacon in the webway? If he isn't a "bad guy" then he is at least a bad parent.

But seriously, Erebus didn't lie about everything. Horus was totally right about the Emperor taking credit for all his hard work. The Emperor back in his accursed Palace doing things that he wouldn't even tell his supposedly most beloved son AND taking the glory from Horus for each victory won? I would say feth that too.

Not sure about that one.... I'm as much of a Magnus fan as anyone (which is why I loath A Thousand Sons!), but it's not at all clear to me that Magnus was going to be stuck on the Golden Throne for eternity prior to the Heresy.

If the Emperor's work on the webway succeeded, there'd be no reason for the Astronomican as a beacon for Astrogators. And if Magnus hadn't damaged the Webway, there'd've been no threat of Daemons entering the real world in the Emperor's Palace on Terra.

Hence, the two reasons to have a massively-powerful psyker on the Throne at all times would be lessened. Or am I missing something there?

Valete,

JohnS

What's eye opening for many is the true root of the american revolution...john adams one of thee richest men in the colonies who was in the import/export business was smuggeling in french wine and being highly taxed and was being routinely surprise inspected by british tax officials....they found the wine and the crew had an altercation....eventually john adams ( a wealthy man ) riled up many workers and less wealthy and helped instigate civil strife and the path to rebellion.....

What's funny is, if the revolution had failed, the rebels would be known as traitors instead of heroes......

Klawz wrote:

Exarch_Nektel wrote:The Emporer is pro-humanity. So, from my point of view, good.

The Emporer is vehemently against any sort of religion. So, from my point of view, bad.

He's kind of a grey area.

So being an atheist can cancel out loving humanity? What weird world do you live in, where the only way a person can be good is by loving Jesus/Yahweh/Allah/Satan/Krishna/Buddha/Zeus/Odin?

The word bearers were evangelist. They invented the Cult of the Emperor. He opposeed this, and all other forms of religion, because he knew what the chaos gods were. Chaos GODS.

I think you missed my point entirely. That is not what I meant at all. I have more than one good friend who is an athiest, and I hold nothing against athiests as long as they hold nothing against me for not being an athiest. What I meant to say is that I don't like the fact that the Emoporer went around killing everyone who believed in a god.

I hope there are no hurt feelings, and I hope to leave this discussion put, becauswe I don't want this topic to become a religion debate.

cygnnus wrote:

Firesolved wrote:

Ostrakon wrote:He's not questing for godhood. He realized Horus could do his military job just as well, and retreated to Terra to study the Warp and how humanity could master it, and to work on the Astronomican.

Erebus was merely playing on Horus's insecurities, and did so quite well. Everything he said was a lie. Later, a Daemon who contacts Horus mentions that chaos "has no interest in your world." Uh-huh.

He wasn't studying the Warp. He was undertaking research to utilize the Eldar's webway.

Magnus is by far my favorite primarch and the Emperor planned on betraying him far before the Nikea Hearing. I mean, sitting your son on a Golden Throne for eternity so he could be the beacon in the webway? If he isn't a "bad guy" then he is at least a bad parent.

But seriously, Erebus didn't lie about everything. Horus was totally right about the Emperor taking credit for all his hard work. The Emperor back in his accursed Palace doing things that he wouldn't even tell his supposedly most beloved son AND taking the glory from Horus for each victory won? I would say feth that too.

Not sure about that one.... I'm as much of a Magnus fan as anyone (which is why I loath A Thousand Sons!), but it's not at all clear to me that Magnus was going to be stuck on the Golden Throne for eternity prior to the Heresy.

If the Emperor's work on the webway succeeded, there'd be no reason for the Astronomican as a beacon for Astrogators. And if Magnus hadn't damaged the Webway, there'd've been no threat of Daemons entering the real world in the Emperor's Palace on Terra.

Hence, the two reasons to have a massively-powerful psyker on the Throne at all times would be lessened. Or am I missing something there?

Valete,

JohnS

Page 447, third paragraph.

It was part of the Emperors grand scheme. And Magnus kinda ruined it by busting through the experimental webway.

Doesn't the Emperor consume the souls of thousands of human psykers annually to sustain himself?

Not really what I'd consider "good". But then the grimdark demands it...l

spartanlegion wrote:What's eye opening for many is the true root of the american revolution...john adams one of thee richest men in the colonies who was in the import/export business was smuggeling in french wine and being highly taxed and was being routinely surprise inspected by british tax officials....they found the wine and the crew had an altercation....eventually john adams ( a wealthy man ) riled up many workers and less wealthy and helped instigate civil strife and the path to rebellion.....

What's funny is, if the revolution had failed, the rebels would be known as traitors instead of heroes......

Sounds like someone's been reading Paulo Friere.

Government of the landowning white men, by the landowning white men, for the landowning white men. Because we believe in freedom.

Let's see (short list)

World and universal domination
human cloning and genetic experamentations
eradication of all world religions
billions dead that stood in the way
police society
conformity required

Yeah, that was Hitlers agendas too...

So the Emp is BAD

CT GAMER wrote:Doesn't the Emperor consume the souls of thousands of human psykers annually to sustain himself?

Not really what I'd consider "good". But then the grimdark demands it...l

EXACTLY! The "man" eats souls for c'tans sake!

spartanlegion wrote:What's eye opening for many is the true root of the american revolution...john adams one of thee richest men in the colonies who was in the import/export business was smuggeling in french wine and being highly taxed and was being routinely surprise inspected by british tax officials....they found the wine and the crew had an altercation....eventually john adams ( a wealthy man ) riled up many workers and less wealthy and helped instigate civil strife and the path to rebellion.....

What's funny is, if the revolution had failed, the rebels would be known as traitors instead of heroes......

Exactly, the Conqueror is always a hero to his people and the devil to the people he conquered.

MekanobSamael wrote:

spartanlegion wrote:What's eye opening for many is the true root of the american revolution...john adams one of thee richest men in the colonies who was in the import/export business was smuggeling in french wine and being highly taxed and was being routinely surprise inspected by british tax officials....they found the wine and the crew had an altercation....eventually john adams ( a wealthy man ) riled up many workers and less wealthy and helped instigate civil strife and the path to rebellion.....

What's funny is, if the revolution had failed, the rebels would be known as traitors instead of heroes......

Sounds like someone's been reading Paulo Friere.

Government of the landowning white men, by the landowning white men, for the landowning white men. Because we believe in freedom.

Out of context by far.

In our modern days, yes, that was by no means a "free government". We were founded by rich, non-tax paying, slave-owning, women beating old guys. That was the norm back then. They were as free as free got before "civil rights" was even a thought in anybody's head.

It is poor judgment to focus on the past and not what has become here in the present. Today, because of those snobbish, greedy old white dudes, we have a free country (well as free as free gets for now with a certain socialist in office...but that's for another forum).

The Emperor was a brutal conqueror and dictator but most if not all of what he warned against was true. The Warp is super dangerous and should not be toyed with. 99% of all aliens are hostile; some being dangerous enough to destroy civilization. The only way to combat such threats was to unify humanity which had been shattered across the galaxy a million times over. The Emperor was clairvoyant pragmatist.

The Emperor was a benevolent Dictator, loved by his people before his 'accension' to 'god-hood'. He didn't force them to love him but he threatened the rediscovered worlds with annihilation if they didn't follow his cause. He didn't need a police state, beacause if they have previously been threatened by him once, they tend to obey the Golden Giant, his Sons, and his Super Soldiers. He did have a bit of a 'we come in peace; Shoot to kill' attitude' but it was for the 'Greater Good' of Humanity.

He definately belongs in a grey area, with a tint of good. He united almost all of lost humanity and prevented Horus from achieving victory. However he did slaughter billions in the process and now has a corrupt government who preaches 'Love the Emperor or we'll blow your head clean off'.

So all in all, with 0 being Evil and 10 being Saintly he would get a 6. Grey, not black or White.

Gathering Storm wrote:The Emperor was a benevolent Dictator, loved by his people before his 'accension' to 'god-hood'. He didn't force them to love him but he threatened the rediscovered worlds with annihilation if they didn't follow his cause. He didn't need a police state, beacause if they have previously been threatened by him once, they tend to obey the Golden Giant, his Sons, and his Super Soldiers. He did have a bit of a 'we come in peace; Shoot to kill' attitude' but it was for the 'Greater Good' of Humanity.

He definately belongs in a grey area, with a tint of good. He united almost all of lost humanity and prevented Horus from achieving victory. However he did slaughter billions in the process and now has a corrupt government who preaches 'Love the Emperor or we'll blow your head clean off'.

So all in all, with 0 being Evil and 10 being Saintly he would get a 6. Grey, not black or White.

If Hitler had won WW2 he'd have 'united' all of humanity. Those parts of humanity still left alive. He would have been remembered and loved as a brilliant man, possibly a god - he had his own cult after all!

They're really very similar, only it true grimdark fashion it was 40k's Hitler who won.

Also, I don't think can describe any dictator as 'benevolent' if they brutalise and mass-murder entire civilizations. That's erring toward 'malevolent', if anything...

Firesolved wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Emperor was a conqueror. Don't forget many of History's most beloved and greatest people were conquerors. America for example was not created and expanded by wishful thinking. It was created by General Washinton.

What? America wasn't created by ol' Georgie. I am pretty sure the writers of the Declaration of Independence had something to do with the forming of America. That "wishful thinking" of a free country that would embrace liberty and justice for all (as it was defined back then anyways) was the inspiration for the brave acts of our Continental Army. Without that "wishful thinking" there would be no flame of ambition and lust for freedom in the men that fought against the Redcoats.

There isn't quite a Canadian equivalent that I know of so that I could put it into perspective for you (the rebellions in upper and lower Canada were important but eventually crushed; poor William Mackenzie and Robert Nelson).

The Emperor is on such a high horse that he says "Look if you don't get inspiration from my ideas and thoughts, we're gonna kill you. Inspired yet?". I just cannot respect that.

Don't start assuming that Continentals fought for FREEEEEDOOOOM... More likely it was simple tax avoidance and the fact that all their friends were going

The Emperor character certainly can be seen a lot of different ways, but in a universe where the very being of mankind is mortally threatened everywhere and all the time you have to unite (even through force) and lay down a strict law to survive as a species.

You can be soft on dissenting factions/worlds within your Imperium, but if you are the whole thing falls apart. If you are the one who can decide 1.000.000 innocent people die, but if you do make that decision it means 1.000.000.000 more get to live. Would you make the decision?

Where do you draw the line as far as necessary evil goes? That is the main question that always comes up with me when the topic of the Emperor & the ways of the Imperium is concerned.

Rube wrote:

Gathering Storm wrote:The Emperor was a benevolent Dictator, loved by his people before his 'accension' to 'god-hood'. He didn't force them to love him but he threatened the rediscovered worlds with annihilation if they didn't follow his cause. He didn't need a police state, beacause if they have previously been threatened by him once, they tend to obey the Golden Giant, his Sons, and his Super Soldiers. He did have a bit of a 'we come in peace; Shoot to kill' attitude' but it was for the 'Greater Good' of Humanity.

He definately belongs in a grey area, with a tint of good. He united almost all of lost humanity and prevented Horus from achieving victory. However he did slaughter billions in the process and now has a corrupt government who preaches 'Love the Emperor or we'll blow your head clean off'.

So all in all, with 0 being Evil and 10 being Saintly he would get a 6. Grey, not black or White.

If Hitler had won WW2 he'd have 'united' all of humanity. Those parts of humanity still left alive. He would have been remembered and loved as a brilliant man, possibly a god - he had his own cult after all!

They're really very similar, only it true grimdark fashion it was 40k's Hitler who won.

Also, I don't think can describe any dictator as 'benevolent' if they brutalise and mass-murder entire civilizations. That's erring toward 'malevolent', if anything...

The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

umm, you can macro-verse that to a species scale rather than "racial" scale. The Emperor has some dumb religion based on species genetics. Why not want to unite ALL humanoid alien species?



Anyway, to OP - imo, the Emperor was good. The Imperium is bad.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

umm, you can macro-verse that to a species scale rather than "racial" scale. The Emperor has some dumb religion based on species genetics. Why not want to unite ALL humanoid alien species?



Anyway, to OP - imo, the Emperor was good. The Imperium is bad.

With who? The Orks? Deamons? Eldar? 99% of aliens are hostile to humanity and would destroy the whole species if they could.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

umm, you can macro-verse that to a species scale rather than "racial" scale. The Emperor has some dumb religion based on species genetics. Why not want to unite ALL humanoid alien species?



Anyway, to OP - imo, the Emperor was good. The Imperium is bad.

With who? The Orks? Deamons? Eldar? 99% of aliens are hostile to humanity and would destroy the whole species if they could.

not the point. Just relatively comparing the Emperor to Hitler and how they can be considered similar. Neither were fully accepting of all living things Diplomacy should never be abandoned!

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

umm, you can macro-verse that to a species scale rather than "racial" scale. The Emperor has some dumb religion based on species genetics. Why not want to unite ALL humanoid alien species?



Anyway, to OP - imo, the Emperor was good. The Imperium is bad.

With who? The Orks? Deamons? Eldar? 99% of aliens are hostile to humanity and would destroy the whole species if they could.

not the point. Just relatively comparing the Emperor to Hitler and how they can be considered similar. Neither were fully accepting of all living things Diplomacy should never be abandoned!

You gotta understand that the 40K universe isn't like the Star Trek or Star Wars one were many alien races work together just fine mostly because they look the same. There's actually an Alien that kills people, steals their brain gains the appearance and knowledge of that person for a month then moves onto the next brain it can get. All the while moving up imperial society until it can perhaps get a chance at being an Imperial govenor. That's why the Emperor is like "just kill all Aliens to be on the safe side". The risks of Alien fraterization outway the benefits.

John Grammaticus also got a half glimplse of something else when he shook the emporers hand. They never got around to explaining that outside of dramatic cliff-hanger. But I wouldn't be surprised if we get another little tidbit about the Emperors origin or efforts (more expansive than the webway) in a future HH book.

As for Good or Evil... I asked my go-to source for complex morale judgements and it's final decision? Maybe. There you have it!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

Nope, that's wrong. The Emperor had some standard at which point you were too genetically 'impure' to enter into the Imperium. The Thousand Sons HH book mentions it at one point - pg195, the Mechanicum geneticists determine that the Avenians were within 'tolerable parameters' genetically. What do you suppose happened to those who weren't within within those tolerable parameters? They were allowed to go on their way peacefully?

Was compliance or death. Simple choice.

Primarchs weren't ordered to just kill da xenos/abhuman, they got some leeway.
Some like lorgar just put everything to the torch if it didn't start to venerate his vision of a god-emperor.
Others claimed a lot of victories, can't have that without "wars".....
I doubt there is a " purge [ insert abhuman or xenos here ] at sight "order.

Rube wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Emperor is not Hitler! Hitler had some dumb religon based on skin pigmentation. The emperor wanted to unite ALL humanity. Including even abhumans like Ogryns, Ratlings and even Beastmen!

Nope, that's wrong. The Emperor had some standard at which point you were too genetically 'impure' to enter into the Imperium. The Thousand Sons HH book mentions it at one point - pg195, the Mechanicum geneticists determine that the Avenians were within 'tolerable parameters' genetically. What do you suppose happened to those who weren't within within those tolerable parameters? They were allowed to go on their way peacefully?

Indeed, full-blown unstable mutations are not tolerated. As it turns out most mutation like that is due to the warp. Unchecked mutation is another threat to humaity that could cause extinction.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:Anyway, to OP - imo, the Emperor was good. The Imperium is bad.

I'd agree with that one.

@Extinction Angel: Magic 8-balls! My only weakness!

To the Sisterhood, there is, of course, only one answer.

He is the very definition of good

He's a lame duck.

Wish the CSM legions would shout that as they go into battle.

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:[
umm, you can macro-verse that to a species scale rather than "racial" scale. The Emperor has some dumb religion based on species genetics. Why not want to unite ALL humanoid alien species?

I like that idea, had he survived the Heresy I could easily visualise him hugging a Genestealer, Carnifex or Hive Tyrant. Then his head would be bitten clean off...

His xenocidle campaign was bad, since their weren't 'nids around at that time, thier were orks but come on, killing every race that isn't human is unfair IMO.

Melissia wrote:To the Sisterhood, there is, of course, only one answer.

He is the very definition of good

Like an army of children.....

The Emperor is a dictator. You are only allowed to think what he (and the inquisition) want you to think, anything else is heresy. If you do not agree with his propaganda, you get killed. I still say he is grey, but a darker grey.

Actually the Emperor isn't a dictator. That's the Ecclesiarch and the High Lords of Terra. The Emperor doesn't actually personally run the Imperium, not for thousands of years.

In fact, it was the Emperor whom freed the Imperium from the oppression of Goge Vandire, by having Alicia Dominica summoned to him and giving her a vision which caused her to slay Vandire, and then form the Sisterhood.

Melissia wrote:Actually the Emperor isn't a dictator. That's the Ecclesiarch and the High Lords of Terra. The Emperor doesn't actually personally run the Imperium, not for thousands of years.

In fact, it was the Emperor whom freed the Imperium from the oppression of Goge Vandire, by having Alicia Dominica summoned to him and giving her a vision which caused her to slay Vandire, and then form the Sisterhood.

I think the question of whether he was good or bad, and subsequent discussion about his dictatorship, was referring to when he was alive and kicking!

It's pretty hard to be a dictator, or evil for that matter, when you're biologically identical to a loaf of moldy bread. If he's benevolent after his incarceration in the Golden Throne it's only because he can't move, talk, breath or affect the outside world in any positive or negative way besides possibly cultivating some nasty bacteria that might give someone a cold.

Rube wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually the Emperor isn't a dictator. That's the Ecclesiarch and the High Lords of Terra. The Emperor doesn't actually personally run the Imperium, not for thousands of years.

In fact, it was the Emperor whom freed the Imperium from the oppression of Goge Vandire, by having Alicia Dominica summoned to him and giving her a vision which caused her to slay Vandire, and then form the Sisterhood.

I think the question of whether he was good or bad, and subsequent discussion about his dictatorship, was referring to when he was alive and kicking!

It's pretty hard to be a dictator, or evil for that matter, when you're biologically identical to a loaf of moldy bread. If he's benevolent after his incarceration in the Golden Throne it's only because he can't move, talk, breath or affect the outside world in any positive or negative way besides possibly cultivating some nasty bacteria that might give someone a cold.

The only tiny difference being that a loaf of moldy bread doesn't need 1000 psyker souls a day sacrificed to sustain it

That depends on whether or not you consider psyker status biological. Because as a psyker, the Emperor is quite clearly still alive...

Melissia wrote:That depends on whether or not you consider psyker status biological. Because as a psyker, the Emperor is quite clearly still alive...

How so?

The Astronomicon doesn't count. The Imperium thinks it's caused by the Emperor, but there are example in the background of psykers detecting when other psykers die from a distance (kind of like 'I sense a disturbance in the force', only with more insanity). Maybe the Navigators can see Terra in the warp because they can sense all the hundreds of psykers getting slaughtered there daily. They avoid the Eye of Terror for similar reasons.

Let's see...

Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witch Hunters makes it clear that the Emperor grants visions, miracles, and etc to the faithful.

Codex: Daemons makes it clear that the Emperor fights off the powers of the warp to protect humanity from the worst of the depredations of Chaos.

Codex: Sisters of Battle makes it clear that the Emperor met in person with Alicia Dominica (technically the other way around, but it's clear that he communicated with her somehow) in mid M.36.

I could probably go find more if I were bored enough.

Melissia wrote:Codex: Sisters of Battle and Codex: Witch Hunters makes it clear that the Emperor grants visions, miracles, and etc to the faithful.

No, the Ecclesiarchy believe that he does. Excuse me if I don't hold the religious zealous fanatics as the best source of information on the subject!

Melissia wrote:Codex: Daemons makes it clear that the Emperor fights off the powers of the warp to protect humanity from the worst of the depredations of Chaos.

Codex: Daemons is purposefully contradictory. It also states, pg24, "It is impossible to say for how long the Emperor can survive in this condition, or even if he has survived at all."

Melissia wrote:Codex: Sisters of Battle makes it clear that the Emperor met in person with Alicia Dominica (technically the other way around, but it's clear that he communicated with her somehow) in mid M.36.

No, it doesn't make that clear. She went into the Emperor's throne room, but that's it. To quote the Witchhunter codex, pg4, "The Custodes took [Dominica] before the Emperor, though what occured there remains unknown."

For all we know they showed her a very dead Emperor and explained that it was important that people believed he was still alive, to keep the Imperium united. Or they killed her and replaced her with a Callidus assassin, at the throne room where they would be assured no witnesses to the battle.

Rube wrote:No, the Ecclesiarchy believe that he does. Excuse me if I don't hold the religious zealous fanatics as the best source of information on the subject!

By that argument, I could say the Imperium BELIEVES that Astartes exist, but they don't really. Or that Chaos crazies BELIEVE the four chaos gods exist. I hold chaos fanatics at an even lower end of the reliability spectrum than I do Imperial zealots.

Which is a silly argument, ant therefor I ignore it.

Rube wrote:

Melissia wrote:That depends on whether or not you consider psyker status biological. Because as a psyker, the Emperor is quite clearly still alive...

How so?

The Astronomicon doesn't count. The Imperium thinks it's caused by the Emperor, but there are example in the background of psykers detecting when other psykers die from a distance (kind of like 'I sense a disturbance in the force', only with more insanity). Maybe the Navigators can see Terra in the warp because they can sense all the hundreds of psykers getting slaughtered there daily. They avoid the Eye of Terror for similar reasons.

While it is a totally different game/time period, in F.E.A.R. Alma (who is a very powerful psychic) gets killed when she is 18, I beleive, and your fighting/getting raped by her when she is in her late twenties. As Snake Fist says in the second game, "Not many people can refuse to die." I'm not saying that this is the case, but it is kinda beleiveable, once you bring in daemons, psychics, and everything else.


Still, having to sustain himself on 1000 psykers per day is not exactly a "good" diet. But then, that's not really his fault when people blindly throw themselves into his mouth....

Melissia wrote:

Rube wrote:No, the Ecclesiarchy believe that he does. Excuse me if I don't hold the religious zealous fanatics as the best source of information on the subject!

By that argument, I could say the Imperium BELIEVES that Astartes exist, but they don't really. Or that Chaos crazies BELIEVE the four chaos gods exist. I hold chaos fanatics at an even lower end of the reliability spectrum than I do Imperial zealots.

Which is a silly argument, ant therefor I ignore it.

The Witchhunter codex says that visionaries claimed that the Emperor guided them, not that the Emperor actually did. It states that Sororitas gain their powers through their great faith in the Emperor, not that the Emperor personally manifests only to Sororitas in every single battle they have. It doesn't deny or confirm anything.

In the Tau codex I believe it's said that the Tau don't really believe in Chaos Gods and Daemons, but that doesn't mean the Tau codex is confirming that the Chaos Gods and Daemons don't exist!

So? Only the Chaos crazies really believe in the chaos gods. The other sides just use them to determine the general type of craziness the Chaos crazies have.

Obviously.

Your argument is still kinda silly, and fails the Occam's Razor test...

Melissia wrote:So? Only the Chaos crazies really believe in the chaos gods. The other sides just use them to determine the general type of craziness the Chaos crazies have.

Obviously.

Not really, no. I think you're not understanding where I'm coming from...

The Witchhunter codex states that Sororitas do exist.

The Witchhunter codex states that The Emperor does exist.

The Witchhunter codex states that Daemons do exist.

The Witchhunter codex states that visionaries believe the Emperor guides them.

The Witchhunter codex does not state that The Emperor actually guides visionaries.

Melissia wrote:Your argument is still kinda silly, and fails the Occam's Razor test...

Occam's Razor does not apply to fiction where the most complicated solution typically is the answer. Occam's Razor works because an event in reality is subject to certain natural laws, and we can posit the most likely outcome of those laws. Fictional events are not controlled by those natural laws.

Actually I was referring to the fact that your argument leads to may hilariously bad conclusions when taken to its logical extreme...

Melissia wrote:So? Only the Chaos crazies really believe in the chaos gods. The other sides just use them to determine the general type of craziness the Chaos crazies have.

Obviously.

Not quite true. Eldar fully beleive in Slaanesh.

Well yes, but they're Eldar. They're always a bit squirrely.

Melissia wrote:Actually the Emperor isn't a dictator. That's the Ecclesiarch and the High Lords of Terra. The Emperor doesn't actually personally run the Imperium, not for thousands of years.

In fact, it was the Emperor whom freed the Imperium from the oppression of Goge Vandire, by having Alicia Dominica summoned to him and giving her a vision which caused her to slay Vandire, and then form the Sisterhood.

Good point Melissia. I forgot about that. One of the main reasons for The Great Heresy was the Emperor was in the process of turning authority over to a civilian goverment. Horus and half the Primarchs could not stand the idea of being ruled by mere humans who hadn't even fought in the great crusade. Legion points out that Horus would have been the most brutal despot ever.

Melissia wrote:Actually the Emperor isn't a dictator. That's the Ecclesiarch and the High Lords of Terra. The Emperor doesn't actually personally run the Imperium, not for thousands of years.

In fact, it was the Emperor whom freed the Imperium from the oppression of Goge Vandire, by having Alicia Dominica summoned to him and giving her a vision which caused her to slay Vandire, and then form the Sisterhood.

LOL are you fething serious? What the frakk have you been smoking? Because I want some.

The Emperor (the one you do not believe is a dictator) went on a 200 year "unity run" called (I don't know if you've ever heard of it from the looks of things) "The Great Crusade". On this Crusade he not only stomped out a gak ton of benevolent and possibly peaceful xenos species but he also stamped out literally MILLIONS (if not billions) of human lives on worlds that were found "non-compliant".

If you could please define your version of dictator so that I may laugh at it, it would be greatly appreciated.

The Emperor wasn't just A dictator...he was THE dictator to end all dictators (like literally in the case of mankind...see your own reference to Vandire).

Unlike a couple of people here, I do think that the Emperor is still alive in his eternal struggle to keep humanity afloat. The man eats souls for feth's sake (unless you want to argue otherwise in which case, those arguments will be duly ignored). However, given the perspective from "The Inquisition War", in which the main character is actually talked to by the psychic emanations from the decaying corpse-god himself, he still seems to hold this tyranical belief that only his way is right and only his way can guide the Imperium. One way or another (even if that means letting the masses worship him).

Henners91 wrote:
Don't start assuming that Continentals fought for FREEEEEDOOOOM... More likely it was simple tax avoidance and the fact that all their friends were going

When it comes down to it, we won the war. Just saying. ((you can keep Benedict Arnold ))

You can't really compare the Emperor to any earth dictators, because guys like Hitler or Stalin killed millions of people for power/the evulz/being bat-crap insane. The Emperor killed millions because the alternative was for humanity to be vaporized off the face of the map.

Also, Horus was far worse. He wiped out all life on Earth just because he was mad at his daddy (they bombarded Earth so hard the crust cracked and the planet became uninhabitable save for just outside of the Emperor's palace, probably killing any humans or native animals on Earth that weren't bacteria). Now THAT is a bonafide jerk.

The Emperor wasn't a saint but he was usually the lesser of 2 dozen evils. The same could be said of Imperium.

Yeah, I'm not sure 'at least he wasn't as bad as Horus' really clears him of any dictatorship accusations. Granted it's true, but it still leaves a lot of room for being evil!

The Emperor may have acted like a mass-murdering totalitarian evil dictator because the alternative would've been worse, but that still makes the Emperor a mass-murdering totalitarian evil dictator!

Duh, everyone's evil in 40k. Tau are effing evil, too. Forced sterilization programs on humans in order to control the population, for example. Eldar are also effing evil, they would gladly see an entire subsector wiped clean of life just to save a single Eldar world. Chaos needs not be spoken for, they spread disease, death, and pain as a matter of course. Same with Dark Eldar. Necrons are murderous jerks, too. Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

Melissia wrote:Duh, everyone's evil in 40k. Tau are effing evil, too. Forced sterilization programs on humans in order to control the population, for example. Eldar are also effing evil, they would gladly see an entire subsector wiped clean of life just to save a single Eldar world. Chaos needs not be spoken for, they spread disease, death, and pain as a matter of course. Same with Dark Eldar. Necrons are murderous jerks, too. Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

I'd change single eldar world to single eldar life. Yes, the whole point of 40K is you gotta pick your poison. Pure Evil or just kinda evil.

Melissia wrote:Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

Which would make them not evil, neither are tyranids. Both are forces of nature, behaving in the way they were designed to do. Neither is bothered with a concept of evil or are breaking their own moral codes. If they are evil, so are venus fly traps, ants, great white sharks and badgers...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

Which would make them not evil, neither are tyranids. Both are forces of nature, behaving in the way they were designed to do. Neither is bothered with a concept of evil or are breaking their own moral codes. If they are evil, so are venus fly traps, ants, great white sharks and badgers...

Badgers = Satans Hamsters.
I'm off to find some toy badgers to super glue khorne symbols and chainaxes to!

Orks have been created to fight, it's what they do.

Melissia wrote:Duh, everyone's evil in 40k. Tau are effing evil, too. Forced sterilization programs on humans in order to control the population, for example. Eldar are also effing evil, they would gladly see an entire subsector wiped clean of life just to save a single Eldar world. Chaos needs not be spoken for, they spread disease, death, and pain as a matter of course. Same with Dark Eldar. Necrons are murderous jerks, too. Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

It's not evil to sacrifice another species to save your own species. We kill cows so that humans might live, that isn't evil. The Eldar or Tau aren't morally obligated to care about humans, anymore so than we are to farmyard animals.

If the Craftworld Eldar or Tau were murdering, torturing and enslaving their own people they'd be evil, but they don't. I don't think the Emperor is an evil dictator because he killed aliens, I think he's an evil dictator because he killed humans who looked a bit funny (or looked at him funny), and enslaved the rest into a tyrannical Imperium that would institutionally crush their culture, brainwash them, torture any dissenters, and supress independant thought and freedom.

That might not've been the worst possible situation humanity could've ended up in, but it's still far from the best. The Eldar and Tau both have better systems, albeit not perfect. Even the humans during the Dark Age of Technology had much better standards of living, by all accounts. When they weren't being killed by robots.

I'm sure the other species disagrees.

Rube wrote:

Melissia wrote:Duh, everyone's evil in 40k. Tau are effing evil, too. Forced sterilization programs on humans in order to control the population, for example. Eldar are also effing evil, they would gladly see an entire subsector wiped clean of life just to save a single Eldar world. Chaos needs not be spoken for, they spread disease, death, and pain as a matter of course. Same with Dark Eldar. Necrons are murderous jerks, too. Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

It's not evil to sacrifice another species to save your own species. We kill cows so that humans might live, that isn't evil. The Eldar or Tau aren't morally obligated to care about humans, anymore so than we are to farmyard animals.

If the Craftworld Eldar or Tau were murdering, torturing and enslaving their own people they'd be evil, but they don't. I don't think the Emperor is an evil dictator because he killed aliens, I think he's an evil dictator because he killed humans who looked a bit funny (or looked at him funny), and enslaved the rest into a tyrannical Imperium that would institutionally crush their culture, brainwash them, torture any dissenters, and supress independant thought and freedom.

That might not've been the worst possible situation humanity could've ended up in, but it's still far from the best. The Eldar and Tau both have better systems, albeit not perfect. Even the humans during the Dark Age of Technology had much better standards of living, by all accounts. When they weren't being killed by robots.

That's all conjecture. The Imperium did not end up being what the emperor wanted. Ironically it may have ended up being the complete opposite.

Mr. Burning wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

Orks have been created to fight, it's what they do.

This is very true. The Old Ones created Orks to fight off the C'Tan and their Necron "allies".

Believe they were called "Zorks" or "korks" ((I looked it up, it is "krork")) or some such. Isn't it scary to think that back then, the orks were a controlled fighting force? And still they lost to the C'tan.


Anyways, yadda yadda yadda: I agree with Rube. Survival of the fittest is not evil.

Which is why Necrons are the ultimate evil (and my favored fighting force). They do it for the souls. feth yeah.

By the way, there is relative good and evil. Your good and your evil may not be the same as someone elses good and someone elses evil. How you look at someone doesn't mean that's how they are. They may just be working on their best idea of how to go about their own good or their own evil. Do you think any of the chaos gods sit and think "oh now that we are evil we must go do our evil things" no because they are your perspective evil. Or vice versa with the SM. There is no good, or evil. Just how you see someone in reaction to your belief of good and evil.

Oh, there is good and evil, it's just that generally the standards for "good" are much, MUCH lower in 40k.

Melissia wrote:Oh, there is good and evil, it's just that generally the standards for "good" are much, MUCH lower in 40k.

Even then, they are thousands and thousands of years in the future. Society's good and evil can change in those years.

Snowman90 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Oh, there is good and evil, it's just that generally the standards for "good" are much, MUCH lower in 40k.

Even then, they are thousands and thousands of years in the future. Society's good and evil can change in those years.

Having said that, bombing entire planets is still pretty well under "Evil".

Slarg232 wrote:

Snowman90 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Oh, there is good and evil, it's just that generally the standards for "good" are much, MUCH lower in 40k.

Even then, they are thousands and thousands of years in the future. Society's good and evil can change in those years.

Having said that, bombing entire planets is still pretty well under "Evil".

Not if there is that one pesky cockroach(tyranid) on that planet. I think bombing a planet to kill the swarmlord is pretty much worth it.

Snowman90 wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Snowman90 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Oh, there is good and evil, it's just that generally the standards for "good" are much, MUCH lower in 40k.

Even then, they are thousands and thousands of years in the future. Society's good and evil can change in those years.

Having said that, bombing entire planets is still pretty well under "Evil".

Not if there is that one pesky cockroach(tyranid) on that planet. I think bombing a planet to kill the swarmlord is pretty much worth it.

But ze swarmlord is unkillables!

Klawz wrote:

Snowman90 wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Snowman90 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Oh, there is good and evil, it's just that generally the standards for "good" are much, MUCH lower in 40k.

Even then, they are thousands and thousands of years in the future. Society's good and evil can change in those years.

Having said that, bombing entire planets is still pretty well under "Evil".

Not if there is that one pesky cockroach(tyranid) on that planet. I think bombing a planet to kill the swarmlord is pretty much worth it.

But ze swarmlord is unkillables!

You're right. I'll fix it, bombing one planet in an attempt to kill the swarmlord would be pretty much worth it. Better?

[quote"Good" and "Bad" are for people who have never taken a philosophy course

The Emperor is basically dead, he's a bad leader(come on how many of you have taken orders from a skeleton), but i think he is doing what's right for humanity...

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

Which would make them not evil, neither are tyranids. Both are forces of nature, behaving in the way they were designed to do. Neither is bothered with a concept of evil or are breaking their own moral codes. If they are evil, so are venus fly traps, ants, great white sharks and badgers...

This brings up an interesting thought. Does it actually say in the Codex that Orks lack the ability to reason? By definition it seems so - they seem to only be able follow instinct. Yet, they believe in intangible gods, have separate kultures, and have individual thought processes. I'm not sure I completely buy that Orks are just intelligent parts of the circle of life, gorillas w/ language.

Despite their inherent lack of conscience, they still seem to have the ability to reason. Which would then make them subject to these sorts of judgments.

Of course, as stated earlier, i think, Good and Evil are relative or don't exist, not so black and white, blah blah blah. Are the Orks evil? Perhaps that is another thread at another time.


edit: to stay back on-topic. yeah...emperor was good. I guess you can define him as a "protagonist". He never intentionally was an antagonist unless forced to be one, correct? So I guess in the eyes of broad storytelling, he can be considered a "good guy". Although I already posted he was good and the Inquisition is bad.

Wasn't he working on a way to access the Webway?

Tha Empra iz a big zoggin' koward, in my opinyon. Get of ya zoggin' a** an' fight, ya moron!

HadoukenAvenger wrote:Tha Empra iz a big zoggin' koward, in my opinyon. Get of ya zoggin' a** an' fight, ya moron!

Actually, according to the Feb 2009 White Dwarf, the orks see the Emperor as a powerful war god. They realize that he never fights personally, but they figure that anyone who commands such gigantic armies must be pretty important.

Well, I know when I've been told

Rube wrote:

Melissia wrote:Duh, everyone's evil in 40k. Tau are effing evil, too. Forced sterilization programs on humans in order to control the population, for example. Eldar are also effing evil, they would gladly see an entire subsector wiped clean of life just to save a single Eldar world. Chaos needs not be spoken for, they spread disease, death, and pain as a matter of course. Same with Dark Eldar. Necrons are murderous jerks, too. Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

It's not evil to sacrifice another species to save your own species. We kill cows so that humans might live, that isn't evil. The Eldar or Tau aren't morally obligated to care about humans, anymore so than we are to farmyard animals.

If the Craftworld Eldar or Tau were murdering, torturing and enslaving their own people they'd be evil, but they don't. I don't think the Emperor is an evil dictator because he killed aliens, I think he's an evil dictator because he killed humans who looked a bit funny (or looked at him funny), and enslaved the rest into a tyrannical Imperium that would institutionally crush their culture, brainwash them, torture any dissenters, and supress independant thought and freedom.

That might not've been the worst possible situation humanity could've ended up in, but it's still far from the best. The Eldar and Tau both have better systems, albeit not perfect. Even the humans during the Dark Age of Technology had much better standards of living, by all accounts. When they weren't being killed by robots.

Problem

Dark Eldar are still technically Eldar. And these two are constantly at war. Furthermore, Craftworlds occasionally go to war with one another, such as the case of Saim Hann. Eldar have a very tribal approach in their civilisation and are nowhere near as united as many would like to beleive.

Tau are alleged to have tampered with Vespid leaders with their helmets somehow to enslave them. Furthermore, amny researchers of Xenology believe there is some sort of chemical or enslavement tool wielded by Ethereals, in order to control the populace. Nothing concrete, but it is always hinted at.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Rube wrote:

Melissia wrote:Duh, everyone's evil in 40k. Tau are effing evil, too. Forced sterilization programs on humans in order to control the population, for example. Eldar are also effing evil, they would gladly see an entire subsector wiped clean of life just to save a single Eldar world. Chaos needs not be spoken for, they spread disease, death, and pain as a matter of course. Same with Dark Eldar. Necrons are murderous jerks, too. Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

It's not evil to sacrifice another species to save your own species. We kill cows so that humans might live, that isn't evil. The Eldar or Tau aren't morally obligated to care about humans, anymore so than we are to farmyard animals.

If the Craftworld Eldar or Tau were murdering, torturing and enslaving their own people they'd be evil, but they don't. I don't think the Emperor is an evil dictator because he killed aliens, I think he's an evil dictator because he killed humans who looked a bit funny (or looked at him funny), and enslaved the rest into a tyrannical Imperium that would institutionally crush their culture, brainwash them, torture any dissenters, and supress independant thought and freedom.

That might not've been the worst possible situation humanity could've ended up in, but it's still far from the best. The Eldar and Tau both have better systems, albeit not perfect. Even the humans during the Dark Age of Technology had much better standards of living, by all accounts. When they weren't being killed by robots.

Problem

Dark Eldar are still technically Eldar. And these two are constantly at war. Furthermore, Craftworlds occasionally go to war with one another, such as the case of Saim Hann. Eldar have a very tribal approach in their civilisation and are nowhere near as united as many would like to beleive.

Tau are alleged to have tampered with Vespid leaders with their helmets somehow to enslave them. Furthermore, amny researchers of Xenology believe there is some sort of chemical or enslavement tool wielded by Ethereals, in order to control the populace. Nothing concrete, but it is always hinted at.

I think The Vespid helmut theory has been debunked. The Vespid are indeed Volunteers.

And the man who created 40K shifts in his high-backed leather sofa in front of his 15-metre-wide computer screen and watches as his minions squabble over the universe which he created.

He, my friends, is the emperor.
And he is most definitely evil.

@Kamikaze: When? And, more importantly, how? It's certainly heavily alluded to in the fluff concerning them.

And then there is the Ethereals (possibly) unnatural ability to demand the command of those around them. The Farsight Enclaves are (possibly) evidence of this.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
And then there is the Ethereals (possibly) unnatural ability to demand the command of those around them. The Farsight Enclaves are (possibly) evidence of this.

How is that evidence?

Because of how the Tau have chanced in absence of Ethereals?

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Kamikaze: When? And, more importantly, how? It's certainly heavily alluded to in the fluff concerning them.

And then there is the Ethereals (possibly) unnatural ability to demand the command of those around them. The Farsight Enclaves are (possibly) evidence of this.

The mind control theory was forwarded by many people when the models were previewed. I was excited because I was like "cool, they're finally giving the Tau a darker edge like everyone else". Then the codex came out and it very clearly states they are simply for communication. Vespid, insects that they are, don't have the vocal capacity for words like humanoids. Then i was like "oh... alright.... lame."

No it didn't. It was alluded to in the White Dwarf Codex concerning them that the Vespid leaders seemed to agree with the Tau offers very quickly once the helmets were introduced. It's nothing concrete to condemn of justify the Tau, it is just alluded to.

Furthermore, in regards to the Farsight Enclaves, it is strange how a Tau general who has done very well for himself is considered to be pretty much an enemy of the Tau Enclaves because he has no Ethereals in his ranks.
The Witch Hunters also have a mission with the objectives to capture an Ethereal for dissection, in order to find out exactly how the control the command of their fellow Tau so well.

Emperors Faithful wrote:No it didn't. It was alluded to in the White Dwarf Codex concerning them that the Vespid leaders seemed to agree with the Tau offers very quickly once the helmets were introduced. It's nothing concrete to condemn of justify the Tau, it is just alluded to.

Furthermore, in regards to the Farsight Enclaves, it is strange how a Tau general who has done very well for himself is considered to be pretty much an enemy of the Tau Enclaves because he has no Ethereals in his ranks.
The Witch Hunters also have a mission with the objectives to capture an Ethereal for dissection, in order to find out exactly how the control the command of their fellow Tau so well.

Yes, but that could simply mean now that they understand each other. I'd like to see some dirt of the Tau too but I'm afraid on this one we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Fine, but its no mystery to us. The Etherals give off a pheromone that impels the other castes to obay. Not mind control in the traditional sense but a pretty wicked biological evolution to obtain.

Cases of Tau Doucheness:

1) Sterlisation of human (Gue'la) areas under Tau Control.

2) Possible tampering with Vespid leaders to dominate race.

3) Etheral Pheromone controls population. Again, this was only alluded to in my experience, I have yet to see anything that officially corroborates this in definitive matters. Like the Vespid helms it is only alluded to and never confirmed.

4) Being fecking Goody-two-shoes. With lazerz. *pew pew*

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Rube wrote:

Melissia wrote:Duh, everyone's evil in 40k. Tau are effing evil, too. Forced sterilization programs on humans in order to control the population, for example. Eldar are also effing evil, they would gladly see an entire subsector wiped clean of life just to save a single Eldar world. Chaos needs not be spoken for, they spread disease, death, and pain as a matter of course. Same with Dark Eldar. Necrons are murderous jerks, too. Orks are violent psychopathic technobarbarians who have no societal concept of peace.

It's not evil to sacrifice another species to save your own species. We kill cows so that humans might live, that isn't evil. The Eldar or Tau aren't morally obligated to care about humans, anymore so than we are to farmyard animals.

If the Craftworld Eldar or Tau were murdering, torturing and enslaving their own people they'd be evil, but they don't. I don't think the Emperor is an evil dictator because he killed aliens, I think he's an evil dictator because he killed humans who looked a bit funny (or looked at him funny), and enslaved the rest into a tyrannical Imperium that would institutionally crush their culture, brainwash them, torture any dissenters, and supress independant thought and freedom.

That might not've been the worst possible situation humanity could've ended up in, but it's still far from the best. The Eldar and Tau both have better systems, albeit not perfect. Even the humans during the Dark Age of Technology had much better standards of living, by all accounts. When they weren't being killed by robots.

Problem

Dark Eldar are still technically Eldar. And these two are constantly at war. Furthermore, Craftworlds occasionally go to war with one another, such as the case of Saim Hann. Eldar have a very tribal approach in their civilisation and are nowhere near as united as many would like to beleive.

Tau are alleged to have tampered with Vespid leaders with their helmets somehow to enslave them. Furthermore, amny researchers of Xenology believe there is some sort of chemical or enslavement tool wielded by Ethereals, in order to control the populace. Nothing concrete, but it is always hinted at.

I think The Vespid helmut theory has been debunked. The Vespid are indeed Volunteers.

No they're not.

The whole "joke" about the Tau race is that the entire race is, effectively, a slave race, little more than a weapon, wielded by others.

The Ethereal control is not alluded to, it's there in black and white in Xenology.

Is Xenology a book of some sort? Becuase honestly I have never heard any GW fluff actually come out and say this concretely.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is Xenology a book of some sort? .

yes.

reds8n wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Is Xenology a book of some sort? .

yes.

A rather dashing book if I may say so myself

While I'm here, the Emperor is a prat. In tales of heresy, The Last Church he is an amazingly large prat. Honest.

I am honestly surprised this discussion didn't get /threaded a while ago (or if it did, that the point was ignored)

As previously stated, "good" and "Bad" are objective, and hard to lable in most situations... however in this one it is very clear cut.

As far as the actions of the Emperor of Mankind being good or evil, in essence they are both.

The fluctuation between the two occurs both depending on which timeframe/specific actions you are referring to as well as the point of view you may have.

For instance, to an Imperial Volunteer soldier, the emperor will most definately be a "good guy" and well merited, it was the Emperor that allowed the Guardsman to travel safely through space, it was the Emperor who fought long ago against the legendary Horus, thus preventing the spread of the hell that is chaos from tainting the Guardsman's ancestors, and it the the Emperor who provides a pillar of strength and hope for all mankind to unite under and 'worship'.

Now take the Ethereal who leads the Tau colony currently being invaded by the Imperium of Man... The emperor is most certainly a "bad guy" in his eyes as he is the tyrant who's iron fist and barbaric pride pushes a potentially peaceful race of 'thinkers' into conflict with his Tau. It is the Xenophobic teachings of the Emperor that has cost the lives of millions of his fellow Tau soldiers, and most of all, it is the Emperor whom brainwashes the rest of Mainkind into a stubborn frenzy when asked to side with Tau for the most important of all goals, The Greater Good!

*** SPOILER ALERT***
But what greater good can their be then the space marines, especially the honorable Space Wolves of Lemun Russ, who view their Father-Emperor as the highest of "Good Guy" standard as they allow their love for such a figure to have them turn their weapons on their battle-brothers, the Thousand Sons of Magnus the red. As they burn Prospero to the ground, they hold no remorse as in their minds, their cause is righteous. Horus, using the order of the Emperor of Mankind himself ((Albeit Horus was in fact lying)) tasked them with the purging of their once loyal brethren, and the Space Wolves, ever obiedient to their most benevolent father, are happy to answer the call...

...when on that same day, Magnus the Red weeps of the carnage that surrounds him. Ready to face his father's judgement, the meloncholy of Magnus is one of guilt, remorse, and most importantly, betrayal. Why are his people being slaughtered, why do his brothers take such joy in slaying their own kind? What happened to law, to civility, to JUSTICE! Why are his people so easly cast aside by the man whom he loved more then his own life (and as such, was ready to accept the judgement of his own personal death, but not the slaughter of innocents on his planet)? Why has his Emperor-Father fallen so far, and been so quick to commit the act of great evil that is the genocide of his thousand sons, and his homeworld. Surely, in the mind of Magnus the Red, the emperor was a "Bad guy"

*** End Spoiler***


AS the above examples should show, the point of view in question would alter the answer to the OPs question.

In summary:

If you play IG/SM/INQ the emperor is PROBABLY a good guy in your eyes.

If you play CSM/Any Xenos race the emperor is PROBABLY a bad guy in your eyes.

If you are wondering, in the case of "In general for the 40k universe". The answer is simple, as there is no "one race" so there is no "one point of view".

/thread

I really sick of people saying this like its even an answer. That's relativism. Relativism is merely one philosophy. One I personally don't subscribe too. It's a very messy belief system were everything is ok.
I'm more of an absolutist. We can judge a man based on the absolutes of his actions.

He is good and is still watching ove rmankind and protecting them from chaos wit his phycic powers.

It likes the war in Terror. One side is fighting for what it thinks is right, while the other side is just fighting for its survival.

But when both sides kill they are commiting evil. It just both sides believe their evil is not as evil as the others evil.

so you are calling a soldier evil for doing his job? He's fighting for a just cause. I know its bad but its like saying a S.W.A.T Member breaks down a door and sees a hostage handled by a drug dealer. Does he shoot the Dealer. Yes. Its not evil if it is Justice.

In absolutism killing a person is always wrong. One could argue killing in self-defense or the defense of others is not.
Killing cuz its your job isn't not one of the better reasons.

Just Cause is a great game.
But anyway the Evil ones are chaos as the seek to pervert the ideas of war.
War is to have a honorable death. That's why most go to war.

Asherian Command wrote:
War is to have a honorable death. That's why most go to war.

That's a new one on me.

Think out your logic man!
I agree with Canuck on this count

And the emperor really is a bad guy

Yeah, but you're Chaos. So that's a biased opinion.

This is a deep question. It is more a question, is that any kind of single minded rule ever can be considered good? As one persons will be pushed onto another can never benefit everyone. What a good person can try to do is benefit the majority but this still neglects the fact that the minority will still suffer. Can you put the minority above the majority?

In truth then anarchy (i.e. chaos) is the only true good. Basically anarchy promotes personal freedom. This is beneficial to everyone, as no one can be seen to be in power or holding order over anyone else. At the same time that promotes personal interests and if you are not a strong person, unable to compete then you may find yourself shelved in a society that promotes a dog eat dog style of thinking.

So is the Emperor good, thats a question of personal preference. Depends if you like order and control. If you like to be told what to do, or if you like to live as you want to live.

The Emperor is Chuck Norris.

'nuff said.

Teeffless wrote:The Emperor is Chuck Norris.

'nuff said.

The Emperor is a Birther?

More importantly, the Emperor can Roundhouse Kick?

Without the emporer the whole Imperium would be destroyed by daemons and the chaos gods, the entire universe would perhaps even colapse.

ceorron wrote:This is a deep question. It is more a question, is that any kind of single minded rule ever can be considered good? As one persons will be pushed onto another can never benefit everyone. What a good person can try to do is benefit the majority but this still neglects the fact that the minority will still suffer. Can you put the minority above the majority?

In truth then anarchy (i.e. chaos) is the only true good. Basically anarchy promotes personal freedom. This is beneficial to everyone, as no one can be seen to be in power or holding order over anyone else. At the same time that promotes personal interests and if you are not a strong person, unable to compete then you may find yourself shelved in a society that promotes a dog eat dog style of thinking.

So is the Emperor good, thats a question of personal preference. Depends if you like order and control. If you like to be told what to do, or if you like to live as you want to live.

In real life perhaps. But this is a universe were fictional super-human-genius-omniscient people exist and having one as an absolute ruler isn't so bad.

I would say living in an anarchy isn't really that good. Somalia is an example of a true anarchy and quite frankly it totally sucks there. Rule of law is observed in all first world and high quality of life nations.

Anarchy is a temporary transition. In a society without rules or law, these things begin to develop by themselves. Describing Somalia as a true anarchy is incorrect, Somalia has a tribal mentality where your treatment and place in society is decided by your family and lineage. It is divisive in nature and all around a rather gakky place to live, but it is not a true anarchy.

I don't think there's an unbiased answer, honeslty.

Fine. Time not to be a Chaos Nut (which are so much cooler than pistachios nuts). Back to my utilitarian beliefs. The Emperor killed millions of those who didn't acede to his beliefs or his way of life, and as such he can be viewed as evil. This is further reinforced by the fact that he has a rather alarming appetite, being in the region of 1000 Psykers a day, though I may be mistaken on this account. However, whilst these facts are a possible cause for one to believe that the emperor is in fact, inheritantly evil (I've spelt that wrong methinks) these are far outweighed when other factors are brough into light, such as the FACT THAT HE IS STOPPING THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE FROM BEING
OM
NOMED
NOMED
BY THE MAJESTY OF CHAOS!
Nuttines over.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Anarchy is a temporary transition. In a society without rules or law, these things begin to develop by themselves. Describing Somalia as a true anarchy is incorrect, Somalia has a tribal mentality where your treatment and place in society is decided by your family and lineage. It is divisive in nature and all around a rather gakky place to live, but it is not a true anarchy.

That's still an anarchy. I'm going by the definition of a place with no goverment or law. Somalia fits that bill.

Necanor wrote:Without the emporer the whole Imperium would be destroyed by daemons and the chaos gods, the entire universe would perhaps even colapse.

Without the Necrons, the Immaterium would spill into the mortal realm, thus overrunnning it with the forces of Chaos...

Are the Necrons suddenly good guys?

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Necanor wrote:Without the emporer the whole Imperium would be destroyed by daemons and the chaos gods, the entire universe would perhaps even colapse.

Without the Necrons, the Immaterium would spill into the mortal realm, thus overrunnning it with the forces of Chaos...

quote]

How do ya figure?