Hey everyone,i see everytime a new codex is released everyone jumps on it and says that it is broken or a unit or rule is.What do you guys think are the most broken units or rules out there?

SS terminators?

Mephiston

I'm still learning the ropes, but I played a game recently against CSM and I have to say Lash Whip on winged daemon princes is ridiculous. Nothing in this game should be able to assault something 30" away. Ever. Especially for less than 200 points.

Daemonettes! They're so OP.

i agree with the SS terminators. Nothing should have a 3+ invonerable save imo. throw ss termis in a land raider, ive never seen them killed. Ive gotten to the point where i just ignor and kill all their friends after I pop their land raider

Marenus Calgar being my spiritual liege..

Blood Angels Timeline..

OH! unit..

Thunder wolfs if they had models.

As a nid player I consider the Doom of Malantai to be overpowered. I refuse to use it.

Another vote for the SS Terminator. Originally the Storm Shield only worked in assaults, and if it reverted to that it would probably be OK but given a 3+ invulnerable to everything it's too over the top for a FREE or 5 pt upgrade.

all you people saying stormshields are funny... thunderhammer terminators get owned so easily by so many things. swamp them with ork boyz, their dead. hit them with any specialized close combat unit, their dead. the only thing their really good at killing is monstrous creatures, shooty heavy infantry, and multi-wound models that can be instant killed.

want an actually broken unit? the humble chimera is broken. 55 points for an av12 vehicle that can pump out 6 shots, and have 5 people fire from inside it per turn is just outright silly. also, the blood chalice that the blood angels get is downright silly... everything in 6" has FNP and furious charge.

Mind you cant Dark Eldar can get a 2+ inv?

The Vendetta- The most underpriced vehicle Ive seen. Three twin linked las cannons are apprently worth 10 points each....wish somebody had let the predators in marine books know that.....

Lash Prince
Complex Crushers
Complex Twolves
Complex Deff Koptas
Most of the Guard Codex

I'd have to say Blood Talons.

Those things suck.

L. Wrex

JotWW. A rune priest gets to draw a 24" line in any direction, and anything it hits has to take a Initiative test. if they fail it or roll a 6, then it's dead, no saves what so ever.

SS Termis don't hold a candle to Nob Bikers. Nob Nikers also can get a 3+ cover save, have 2 wounds, can hold objectives, move 24", can have different wargear to spread wounds around without removing models, and have feel no pain as the cherry on top. Every army can deal with terminators, precious few armies can deal with nob bikers. Oh and I forgot to mention the really long bases allows you to spread them out to both avoid ordinance and multi-assault along a massive front

Jaws of the World Wolf and Lash of Submission. I refuse to use Jaws in my Wolf army, and I will refuse to use it once my Chaos army is up and running. I may be inclined to say Nob Bikers, but I've never played against them, and I gear up all my armies with powerfists out the wazoo anyway. Failing that, demolishers.

Volkov wrote:SS Termis don't hold a candle to Nob Bikers. Nob Nikers also can get a 3+ cover save, have 2 wounds, can hold objectives, move 24", can have different wargear to spread wounds around without removing models, and have feel no pain as the cherry on top. Every army can deal with terminators, precious few armies can deal with nob bikers. Oh and I forgot to mention the really long bases allows you to spread them out to both avoid ordinance and multi-assault along a massive front

I whole-heartedly agree.

What really pisses me off is that in the Tyranid Codex they closed the loop-hole for spreading wounds due to unique equipment (I can't remember the wording, but they did) for Tyranid Warriors, yet they haven't released an errata for the Ork Nob situation. It really, really annoys me.

Demolisher do nothing trust me, my main army is guard, and my LGS is rife with nob bikers. the 3+ cover is just too hard to get through.

Psyker Battle Squads neuter Nob Biker Mobs; lower their Leadership, pin them down, pour firepower onto them.

The Lash of Submission won't affect units embarked in vehicles, inside of buildings, or otherwise outside of line of sight; it can't be used if the Prince/Sorcerer is in close combat, and only has a range of 24".

The Jaws of the World Wolf likewise can't be used in close combat, doesn't discriminate between friendly and enemy models along its path, and you don't have to line your I1 monsters up so that the Rune Priest can pot them all.

Psyker Battle Squads neuter Nob Biker Mobs; lower their Leadership, pin them down, pour firepower onto them.

if they take both a warboss and wazdakka, then you need to inflict 8 s8 wounds in a single shooting phase for them to take a Ld check. so with a 3 up cover that's 24 wounds which means 30 hits at BS 3 means 60 s8 shots. No problem. And thats not even to kill them all thats just to force a ld test

Volkov:

You don't now how pinning works, do you?

Actually, if the nob bikers had turbo boosted that turn, they'd be immune to pinning anyway. A better way to chase them off the field is to tank shock them.

The most broken rule:
"Playing for fun".



"Play to Win", should replace that :

Volkov:

You don't now how pinning works, do you?

You don't know how turbo-boosting works, do you? If they didn't turbo boost that round they are in multi-assault with half your army


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A better way to chase them off the field is to tank shock them.

Actually they are fearless with more than 10 models, but one thing I did is use 3 chimeras to tank shock a single bike without a powerfist (only the models actually having to move because of the tank can DoG) And I used the 3 chimeras to form a triangle around the nob biker. I broke the coherency of the squad and he couldn't multi-assault until he had regained coherency. So he just assaulted one of the chimeras and that gave me another turn to try and kill him. I still lost but hey I thought it was clever

Volkov wrote:

Psyker Battle Squads neuter Nob Biker Mobs; lower their Leadership, pin them down, pour firepower onto them.

if they take both a warboss and wazdakka, then you need to inflict 8 s8 wounds in a single shooting phase for them to take a Ld check. so with a 3 up cover that's 24 wounds which means 30 hits at BS 3 means 60 s8 shots. No problem. And thats not even to kill them all thats just to force a ld test

No, to force a morale test you need to inflict 3 S8+ wounds. S8+ will instant-kill them and ignores their FNP. They have a 1/3 chance of failing their cover save so you need to cause 9 S8+ wounds to have a reasonable chance of doing that. Between battle cannon, melta vets, vendettas, manticores, and all the other insane amounts of shooting that guard get that shouldnt be a problem.

Chaos similarly have no probalem with nob bikers. You lash them into a conga line so that you can charge the end with no powerklaws, after battering them with plasma cannon and battle cannon of course.

Dark Eldar have such an insane amount of S8 shooting and high I combat attacks that they can blast kill them without much effort.

TH/SS terminators eat nob bikers for lunch.

In fact all of the better armies have easy ways of dealing with nob bikers, which is why you dont see them around much any more.

Luke_Prowler wrote:JotWW. A rune priest gets to draw a 24" line in any direction, and anything it hits has to take a Initiative test. if they fail it or roll a 6, then it's dead, no saves what so ever.

QFT
I have played against someone who used this and it was so annoying having him draw a line across my squads every turn. I was luck that I only lost a Heavy Weapons Squad with the amount of units he hit with it.

5 Blood Angel TH/SS Terminators.
1 BA SP in TDA.
1 BA Librarian in TDA.
1 Reclusiarch in TDA.
1 LRC.

That unit is near unshiftable.

A guy at my FLGS has this unit and never ever loses.

I hear people complain about living metal all the time and the "ignores invulnerable saves" weapons that some 'crons have. Honestly I think it's ridiculous if anything ignores an invul save, by definition nothing should be able to bypass one, but whatever.

And to the guy saying nothing should have 3+ invul save, wraiths do. If they didn't, they would get destroyed even quicker and more useless than they are now.

And by 'anything', the rules for the Jaws of the World Wolf means: "Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models..."

In other words vehicles, jump infantry, and artillery, are completely immune, and by extension units embarked in vehicles. Monstrous Creatures have a -1 bonus for their initiative test.

Initiative tests, like all characteristic tests, are passed when you roll equal to or lower than the value of the model's initiative, and failure is automatic on a roll of 6.

That means that the likelihood of avoiding the Jaws of the World Wolf after it is successfully cast, and your models are both vulnerable, not in transports, and the power is not nullified, is

I1 = 17% [But what has I1 and isn't a Monstrous Creature?]
I2 = 33% [Orks Boyz, Tau Fire Warriors, Carnifexes, Tervigons]
I3 = 50% [Imperial Guardsmen, Ork Nobs]
I4 = 67% [Space Marines, Eldar Guardians, Termagants, Tyranid Warriors]
I5+ = 83% [Hive Tyrants, Eldar Aspect Warriors, Dark Eldar Pensioners, etc]

Or you could fight bikernobz the easy way ...... With crushers.

Unit of crushers with or without a herald destroy them every time, and for far less points

Units of warriors or shrikes with boneswords also do the job well.

Phase Out

Nothing like a rule that auto hands you a victory by doing a half-arsed job fighting your opponent.

Jaws of the World Wolf i have killed over 400 points of tyranids with my 100 point Rune priest in one go with that power.
Hive tyrant
Doom of Malantai
2 Zoanthropes

Shouldn't "broken" take into account points values as well?

For example, Nob Bikers are tough and effective but to even a minimum sized mob is quite a point sink.

Blair:

Hush now, this is supposed to be the thread where the world comes to an end, not where it can't because you can't fit all four horsemen of the Apocalypse into a 2000pt army.

I remember this one time when my Jump Pack Librarian used Helfire and hit every single nob biker with it. Rolled 12 on 2 for strength and 1 on a . That is a flame template with strength 10 ap 1. Instant killed all of them with no cover save. Lets just say I one the game after that...


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Also, Helfire is a Dark Angels Lib power with the following stats:

Range Strength AP Type
Template 2D6-2 D6 Assault 1

I'd say nob bikers, but my markerlights can help me out there. I'd say SS termies or railguns just because that sstuipd 3+ is hard to get past, even after blowing up the land raider I usually see them in. I still have better targets for my railguns. And rail guns are great as you can bring only 9 of them, but those are TL, but since you can take so few it kinda balances out.

The humble ork boyz unit. 6 points for a model, with a unit size of up to 30, the option to re-roll failed morale checks and can contain a hidden PK.

JotWW gets my vote. It bypasses so many mechanisms of the game. No one model should have a power that can outright destroy a 360 point Nightbringer in one shot... and then continue to wipe out more guys behind him.

It is not that difficult to picture it taking down over 1k points of a big bug list in one or two shots. Silver bullets are one thing, but this is a gold plated shotgun that can be a pain for everyone. And it is not expensive and any SW army can take up to FOUR of them. Yeah, that's fair.

The following is my opinion on what is most broken/dodgy

Most broken rule: Decent of Angels, Deepstriking LRs
Most Broken Spell: Lash of Submission
Most Broken Unit: Librarian Dreads and Mephiston (by far)

To add further on most broken unit, no dread should get a large amount of attacks and have access to a psychic power that allows them to move like jump pack infantry.

As for Mephiston, he is probably the most unbalanced SC in 40k. His lack of an inv save and IC status does not make up for his uber killiness as a smart BA player can easilly compensate for this. Mephiston's rules as a whole appear to be unbalanced and “strange” and don’t fit the template in how a 40k SC should be.

Nurglitch wrote:And by 'anything', the rules for the Jaws of the World Wolf means: "Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models..."

In other words vehicles, jump infantry, and artillery, are completely immune, and by extension units embarked in vehicles. Monstrous Creatures have a -1 bonus for their initiative test.

If you tried to tell me Jump Infantry were immune to JotWW I'd probably slap you. Please just try to convince me that they aren't infantry models. Just because you get a movement rule doesn't change the fact you are still infantry. Hence, jump INFANTRY.

Sorry for the OT, but that is just ridiculous.

EagleArk wrote:Mind you cant Dark Eldar can get a 2+ inv?

And it's the only invulnerable save they have...period.

jump infantry are NOT infantry... in the big rulebook it states the different types of infantry. jump infantry, bike infantry, jetbike infantry, and infantry are all different. If jump infantry were normal infantry, they wouldn't take dangerous terrain tests moving through terrain (they do, even if they only move 6")

SS temies, they rape with combat resolution

No, to force a morale test you need to inflict 3 S8+ wounds. S8+ will instant-kill them and ignores their FNP. They have a 1/3 chance of failing their cover save so you need to cause 9 S8+ wounds to have a reasonable chance of doing that. Between battle cannon, melta vets, vendettas, manticores, and all the other insane amounts of shooting that guard get that shouldnt be a problem.

If they take a warboss and wazdakka, they are t5. And usually the nob biker players put the first hits on them until they have 1 wound left, then you need to kill 4 bikes after that, so a total of 8 unsaved wounds which is a level of firepower my gunline guard can't dish out. My dark eldar list if I go all lances has about 21 at 1500. But that is still not even half of the shots I need, to even force a morale check.
Frankly I don't see how anyone can argue anything else as broken. SS termis aren't mounted on bikes, or count as troops, or have two wounds, or have feel no pain, or have different wargear so they can spread wounds if they had 2 wounds. If SS termis had all that then they would be slightly better than nob bikers. The nob bikers still have a ridiculous amount of firepower should they require it, where SS termis have nothing

Mattlov wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:And by 'anything', the rules for the Jaws of the World Wolf means: "Monstrous creatures, beasts, cavalry, bikes and infantry models..."

In other words vehicles, jump infantry, and artillery, are completely immune, and by extension units embarked in vehicles. Monstrous Creatures have a -1 bonus for their initiative test.

If you tried to tell me Jump Infantry were immune to JotWW I'd probably slap you. Please just try to convince me that they aren't infantry models. Just because you get a movement rule doesn't change the fact you are still infantry. Hence, jump INFANTRY.

Sorry for the OT, but that is just ridiculous.

Read a rulebook. Infantry and Jump Infantry are separate unit types.

I want battlesuits in devilfish NAOW! Why did noone inform me that jump infantry = inf? What FAQ is this in?

Maybe this is to make DE scourges better! All hose heavies n a raider?! Wait, they would still be worse than ravagers...

In all seriousness, it makes total sense that if the ground tries to swallow you, and you can fly, you will simply fly.

Bjorn the fell handed is one I can think off...Is he OP? Well not really....Is he super Powah-full and has the ability to take on anything in the game and keep smiling...HECK YES.

With an Invuln save he has the ability to keep coming back...and adds points to your victory if played right if the event happens that he does die.


jotww is another good one.

Shokk attack gun is another...but only if you roll double 6.

Mega-nobs in battle wagons. Anyone of you can say that..oh I will just pop that with my S8 weapons from far away and shoot them down....Try doing that to a 30 mega-nob army with battle wagons and other neat stuff. I seen that list and Tau, Chaos and Other Ork players could not beat it. They were all running the kinds of lists you arrogant people who claim my S7 pr S10 AP rending this and that's and this cannot affect me cuz I gots this and that...well they were running those kinds of lists and while one or two tanks got shot....it really does not help you very much. Mega-nobs of that number are not a very easy list to beat especially with Mad Doc and Thraka in the list with them.

In short...I am sick of mega nobs. No matter the type of stuff I need to do in the game. I keep running up...I get into CC...Kill EVERYTHING....then I wipe out everything somewhere around turn 3-4.

I got so sick of running them in games that I retired the 8 mega-nobs I have to a display case where their shinny golden and tin bits armor looks pretty and nothing more.

Tantras wrote:

Volkov wrote:SS Termis don't hold a candle to Nob Bikers. Nob Nikers also can get a 3+ cover save, have 2 wounds, can hold objectives, move 24", can have different wargear to spread wounds around without removing models, and have feel no pain as the cherry on top. Every army can deal with terminators, precious few armies can deal with nob bikers. Oh and I forgot to mention the really long bases allows you to spread them out to both avoid ordinance and multi-assault along a massive front

I whole-heartedly agree.

What really pisses me off is that in the Tyranid Codex they closed the loop-hole for spreading wounds due to unique equipment (I can't remember the wording, but they did) for Tyranid Warriors, yet they haven't released an errata for the Ork Nob situation. It really, really annoys me.

I love your Avatar

In my opinion nothing is "broken", there are just harder items.

For example want to neuter nob bikers to the point of helplessness? Ruins. Stick the object two stories up and the Nobz are going nowhere near it.

The most broken Character is Mephiston? Really? Sorry, no Inv save and no IC rules means he is cannon fodder.

JotWW is NOT broken - if you play like an idiot because you dont know what it is / does, then fair enough, but it is surpriisinglky easy to neuter:

- dont line up your big bugs
- vehicles
- get the guy in combat. the only vehicles he can be in and see out to fire it are rhino class. kill the vehicle, assault.
- shoot him from range. 24" isnt that far.

Now, Murderous Hurricane, the "unit moves as in difficult and dangerous" IS murder, and by far the stronger power.

nosferatu1001 wrote:For example want to neuter nob bikers to the point of helplessness? Ruins. Stick the object two stories up and the Nobz are going nowhere near it.

Hahah, amazing! Why did this not occur to me sooner?

Broken meaning "good or overpowered": Chimeras, Space Marines. A vehicle that can house an entire firing squad moving around the board pumping plasma or melta into things is insane. Space Marines basic units have the same save as tyranids' strongest creatures. If there are TWO things in this game I wish I'd never have to see ever again, it's a space marine or a chimera. Bring on the TH/SS termies, the triple dissie or lance ravagers, sanguinary guard, doom of malan'ti or anything else, but I would never want to see a chimera or space marine.

Broken meaning "Bad or unusable": DE scourges, they have heavy weapons, but can't move and fire. Necron phase out rule. DA bikes that can't turboboost during scout move when other armies can. Stuff like that is just so counter-intuitive it makes me wonder how it got published.


Edit: Battlefleet Gothic, the whole damn necron fleet is a mix of both broken good and broken bad.

space marine 3+ armor overpowered??!?!!

GAH!!! I loose so many damn marines while sitting in 4+ cover, wondering why my marines thought it would be a great idea to stand up and take a bolter round to the face instead of trying to use the cover, then if he was hit anyway, taking a bolter round to the face.

In a game where 4+ cover saves are so incredibly common, paying extra points for a 3+ save in a majority shooty army is more often than not a liability. if I could get a refund of 7-8 points per tac marine to drop his save to 5+, guess what, i'd do it in a heartbeat. I'd be taking techmarines to give me a 3+ cover save, and i'd be happy as a pig in slop, with double the normal marines on the table.

the ONLY TIME a 3+ save is worth ANYTHING is in hand to hand, and really, because marines are so expensive and only have 1 attack in hand to hand anyway, its not even that much of a saving grace when your forced to take 10-12 saves. and your only dealing 4 wounds or so.

Gandair - you mean "can move 6" if the squad inside want to fire, and they cant do that if you get *1* shaken result on the vehicle" I take it? Side armour 10 (on huuuge sides) is not difficult to deal with.

SPace marines are T4, not T6. So you are wounded far more often ,reducing the value of their save.

DA Bikes cant turbboost because they have homing beacons. So that the landing-first-turn deathwing cant be literally in your lines Turn 1.

nosferatu, the problem with chimeras is that the av10 on the sides is never visible... if you have a wall of 15 chimeras coming at you. You can get around a major disadvantage by just taking more chimeras.

Well... you don't actually have to see the side armor to be rolling on side armor... you just get a 3+ cover save in that situation.

Chimera spam is the phalanx of 40k. As we all know, historically the phalanx was never beaten, which is why modern militaries still fight in phalanx formation!

Is no-one going to call jetseer councils overpowered? Please?

but... jetseer councils arent overpowered.

take a marine librarian with a psychic hood... you stand a good chance to stop fortune from going off, and even if it does, you can still try null zone + plasmas / power swords to cut them to prices. and even if you can't stop fortune, a 4+ re-rollable save is only slightly more durable than a single 3+ save.... so ap3 wounds will still get 1/4 wounds through.

It's not.
It relies heavily on fortune, and these days you can either stop the fortune or unleash so much dakka or force multipliers that it evens out.

It is a trick pony list now.

Honersstodnt wrote:nosferatu, the problem with chimeras is that the av10 on the sides is never visible... if you have a wall of 15 chimeras coming at you. You can get around a major disadvantage by just taking more chimeras.

So you dont have any fast units *at all*? THen that suggests a problem with your list or tactics.

Chimeras arent an issue, not compared to the good old valkyrie with HB and missile pods.

wtf are fast units gonna do?if you put something like a russ on one end, with armor 13 on the side, and have the other end of your chimera line touching the board edge, your not getting any side armor... ever. If you are talking about getting behind it, then good luck to you.

valks are such much worse than chimera spam... each costs 3x the cost of a chimera, units can't fire from inside, and its far more vulnerable to shooting (everything can see it)... I'd face an air cav list any day of the week over a chimera spam list.

So if space marines and their 3+ save is broken surely necrons and their 3+ save and we will be back rule is even worse.

@Honoersstodnt:

You are misinformed, you can still get side armor even if you can't see it...

yea, but then he gets a 3+ cover save... which in most cases makes it more productive to shoot at the front armor.

Sanctjud wrote:It's not.
It relies heavily on fortune, and these days you can either stop the fortune or unleash so much dakka or force multipliers that it evens out.

It is a trick pony list now.

:<

Took me sooooo long to convert...

Hehe yeah, it's funny to think that something that was getting spammed in tournaments only... 6 months ago(?) is considered average today.

My vote for overpowered goes to most things from the new Bangles codex, although to be fair that distinction would be going toward whoever had the newest codex if precendence is anything to go by. Power creep and all.

Still, magical flying psychic Dreadnoughts. Goddamn you Ward.

Honersstodnt wrote:wtf are fast units gonna do?if you put something like a russ on one end, with armor 13 on the side, and have the other end of your chimera line touching the board edge, your not getting any side armor... ever. If you are talking about getting behind it, then good luck to you.

Confused - so you only have entirely foot slogging units, with no jet bikes / skimmers / deep striking units / etc?

If so then, as I said - its a problem with your list and not the chimera. Oh, and if they do this formation remember it can a) only move straight ahead with any degree of ease (you cannot pivot without attemptting to pass through your own models, whcih is not allowed, unles syou drive forwards for 5" and do a slight turn) and b) the cannot turn around and c) can only shoot out the vehicle if they travel 6" or less that turn. Whic is fine, as I will simply outrange them for 3 turns with 8 move and fire lascannons. hell, with 15 chimera i guess youre looking at 2k points in which case I have even more than that.

Honersstodnt wrote:valks are such much worse than chimera spam... each costs 3x the cost of a chimera

2.5 with pods only.

units can't fire from inside

neither can your chimera guys, unless they only move 6"

, and its far more vulnerable to shooting (everything can see it)... I'd face an air cav list any day of the week over a chimera spam list.

And? Any major threats are dealt with when it outflanks onto the board, as youre hittign rear armour most of the time.

Having faced chimera spam lists before ANY pieces of terrain screw it up (1 or 2 immoblised results, which in your "15 chimera" list is about every turn) and holes soon appear in the sides. IT cannot manouver to save its life (assuming youre playing movement correctly? If not this may be the cause of some of your woes) and isnt quick enough when it comes to grabbing last turn objectives after sitting at safe distances.


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Blood angels are NOT broken, as they PAY and PAY HARD for everythign they have.

Sanctjud wrote:@Honoersstodnt:

You are misinformed, you can still get side armor even if you can't see it...

Actually, I think you are misinformed. If you are in a side armour zone, but you can't see it (instead you see only front armour) you shoot at the FRONT armour AND the vehicle get 3+ cover.
This of course, not coming from some barrage shot.

JotWW. They did it for the lulz imo.

What you see and which vehicle facing you are on are two different things IIRC, but this would be a YMDC issue.

Regardless, there are ways to break up the Chimera Wall, nothing is unbeatable, it certainly is annoying.

Chimeras are overpowered? This is news to me! Yeah, you can put them in a wall, unless they come into bottlenecks, then their girth is a liability. I don't know how many times I have seized the advance of my opponent by popping one or two Rhinos or Chimeras. AV12, while not anything to sneeze at, is hardly a formidable value.

Gotta say my friends all say my TH/SS Terminators are overpowered, but really, in an army that uses lots of shooting, we need at least one tough hombre to help deal with MC's that drop in amongst our humble Devastator Squads. Yes +3 Invul saves are nice, but not broken.

Skinnattittar wrote: then their girth is a liability...

i'm seriously still giggling like a schoolgirl after reading this.

I would say Lash of Submission is broken for many reasons, most of all sportsmanship. It is just no fun at all for the owning player to have his models moved by his opponent, almost always to his great detriment. Yes, there are ways of avoiding this, but the fact it exists isn't fun at all.

Jaws of the World Wolf is also a great annoyance. The fact that it simply "removes" the effected models is just so alien to the main game as to be unprecedented for regular play. The field of effect is also annoying, with just a minimum of creativity the wielder can effect dozens of models who will have no defense against it.

No Armor Value (or Toughness, for that matter) is of consequence to the might of the gauss weapons.

The amount of people continuing to bitch and moan about Deepstriking Land Raiders is fascinating.

Its like no one cares that DSing a LR is damn near useless - not to mention extremely difficult to pull of unless you play on tables with minimal terrain.

I really hate Daemonhunter Allies.

I'm looking forward to the "Mystics Crutch" getting kicked out from under these gits when the new codex comes out.

BrotherAtrox wrote:The amount of people continuing to bitch and moan about Deepstriking Land Raiders is fascinating.

Its like no one cares that DSing a LR is damn near useless - not to mention extremely difficult to pull of unless you play on tables with minimal terrain.

locator beacons

Anybody that DSs something as big as a LR without locator beacons is asking for trouble. Just because you don't know how to make it work, doesn't make it worthless.

Yeah.. Lash is one of the crappiest ones.. Mainly what Skinnattittar wrote..
But also:
Nice cover.. *Fzorgle*! and you're in the open..
Nice spread.. *Fzorgle*! and those plasma cannons and flamers will hurt like crap..
In assault range you say? *Fzorgle* and gtfo to the difficult or dangerous terrain..
This unit there.. *Fzorgle* here so my whole army is in assault range now..
And this on flying MC..

DS Land Raiders are a joke.. Come on.. I don't even have to try and get all my meltas that far to wreck this super expensive piece of crap..

I'm fascinated that no one said Deff Rolla.. There was soooo much flame around it and now not even a single vote?

Totally in agreement about the Deff Rolla, especially against vehicles (which makes absolutely no sense, even RAW).

GW writes the rules and then breaks them and then makes more rules to cover the power vacuum caused by the older, broken rules....etc.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm getting sick of all the FNP that's been liberally spread throughout the game.

agnosto wrote:GW writes the rules and then breaks them and then makes more rules to cover the power vacuum caused by the older, broken rules....etc.

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm getting sick of all the FNP that's been liberally spread throughout the game.

It is GW's new toy that makes typically easily killed units nigh unkillable. While I appreciate it, and kind of like it (despite being IG and practically never getting to use it), I just wish they stopped giving it "area of effect" roles. I'm sorry, but some guy holding a chalice nearby won't stop me from keeling over if I have been disembowled (for me, I would keep on fighting just to see the look on my enemy's face!).

FNP itself isn't broken.. But giving it to every moving thing is just wrong.. I really liked that about Wh40k.. Just a single save and nothing else.. But I guess FNP isn't save so I'm all quiet now..

Honersstodnt wrote:wtf are fast units gonna do?if you put something like a russ on one end, with armor 13 on the side, and have the other end of your chimera line touching the board edge, your not getting any side armor... ever. If you are talking about getting behind it, then good luck to you.

valks are such much worse than chimera spam... each costs 3x the cost of a chimera, units can't fire from inside, and its far more vulnerable to shooting (everything can see it)... I'd face an air cav list any day of the week over a chimera spam list.

I eat Chimera line for breakfast with my dark angels. All it takes is 3 6-man 2xMelta Gun Biker squad, and your whole armor is out of the chimera's by turn one. I love my Scouting/Outflanking bikes... OH, and the terms that are going to drop out of thin air next to the bikes turn one.

Rube wrote:Chimera spam is the phalanx of 40k. As we all know, historically the phalanx was never beaten, which is why modern militaries still fight in phalanx formation!

Is no-one going to call jetseer councils overpowered? Please?

Well two things need to be said here:
First, the Romans lost many battles when they were hit from two angles, look at Hannibal of Carthage's history and rethink "the phalanx was never beaten"
Second, modern military armoured vehiicles fight side by side, but at great distances (>10meters) from each other, this is not reall a phalanx as they arn't litteraly side by side.

I do however aggre that wall o' chimeras is very useful, but not all the time, sometimes the board just doesn't accomodate that kind of formation

GRRR RAWR TERMAGANTS WITH SPIKE RIFLES ROAR!

Look out! I'm rolling 30 dice!! Wait....what was your toughness again? Oh...never mind...I might as well put these dice back down....

despoiler52 wrote:

Rube wrote:Chimera spam is the phalanx of 40k. As we all know, historically the phalanx was never beaten, which is why modern militaries still fight in phalanx formation!

Is no-one going to call jetseer councils overpowered? Please?

Well two things need to be said here:
First, the Romans lost many battles when they were hit from two angles, look at Hannibal of Carthage's history and rethink "the phalanx was never beaten"
Second, modern military armoured vehiicles fight side by side, but at great distances (>10meters) from each other, this is not reall a phalanx as they arn't litteraly side by side.

...

No, I was referring to modern infantry still fighting in a phalanx. I was in no way taking the piss out of people who say chimera-wall is OP by stating that phalanx's were never beaten in battle. Which they never were, as long ranged firepower, fast moving flankers and slightly longer spears don't exist. ;P

Honersstodnt wrote:but... jetseer councils arent overpowered.

Can you guys come down to my game store next thursday and tell my opponents that please?

Madog wrote:

Honersstodnt wrote:but... jetseer councils arent overpowered.

Can you guys come down to my game store next thursday and tell my opponents that please?

I can. Threw two 8 man berzerker squad at it with a fist and after about 250 attacks I came out smelling like roses. Takes a while but it's do able while the rest of his army is shot from underneath.

despoiler52 wrote:

Rube wrote:Chimera spam is the phalanx of 40k. As we all know, historically the phalanx was never beaten, which is why modern militaries still fight in phalanx formation!

Is no-one going to call jetseer councils overpowered? Please?

Well two things need to be said here:
First, the Romans lost many battles when they were hit from two angles, look at Hannibal of Carthage's history and rethink "the phalanx was never beaten"
Second, modern military armoured vehiicles fight side by side, but at great distances (>10meters) from each other, this is not reall a phalanx as they arn't litteraly side by side.

I do however aggre that wall o' chimeras is very useful, but not all the time, sometimes the board just doesn't accomodate that kind of formation

The Romans didn't fight in a Phalanx. They are actually the famed military that brought an end to it. The Phalanx was a large formation of spearmen with 16 foot long pikes (sarissa) used by the Macedonians and copied throughout the world after Alexander's conquest. Until they were rendered obsolete by the Romans.

I believe the post you quoted was sarcasm btw.

Kurgash wrote:

Madog wrote:

Honersstodnt wrote:but... jetseer councils arent overpowered.

Can you guys come down to my game store next thursday and tell my opponents that please?

I can. Threw two 8 man berzerker squad at it with a fist and after about 250 attacks I came out smelling like roses. Takes a while but it's do able while the rest of his army is shot from underneath

Wow - all the way from America to Brighton just to tell my mates that - you're a really nice man - thanks. See you Thursday then

I don't think Seer Council is overpowered myself (that's why I use one) - just worrying when I read people accusing it of cheese. It is a great tar pit unit for tying up stuff while the rest of your army goes on the rampage though!

Lash of submission, JotWW.

Honersstodnt wrote:all you people saying stormshields are funny... thunderhammer terminators get owned so easily by so many things. swamp them with ork boyz, their dead. hit them with any specialized close combat unit, their dead. the only thing their really good at killing is monstrous creatures, shooty heavy infantry, and multi-wound models that can be instant killed.

want an actually broken unit? the humble chimera is broken. 55 points for an av12 vehicle that can pump out 6 shots, and have 5 people fire from inside it per turn is just outright silly. also, the blood chalice that the blood angels get is downright silly... everything in 6" has FNP and furious charge.

Agreed. The chimera is broken.

Agreed. The chimera is broken.

No the new vehicle damage table is broken

Tervigons and their breeding of Gaunts.

The Monolith.

It ignores FIVE of fifth edition's rules. Partly because it's from a really old codex that needs an update (how does deep striking it work anyways?!), but also because of LIVING METAL, which in 5th makes it nearly impossible to destroy.

Good thing it phases out

(For the record, I don't think the 3+ invulnerable save is 'broken' on terminators, it just changes the type of weapon you need to kill them.)

The Monolith is fine.
Without it, Necrons would even be worse.

Last I checked this was an opinion based thread. I personally don't like dealing with masses of 3+ saves on basic units and the chimera wall where he sets it up so it's very hard to get side armor shots.

I'm sorry if my opinion upsets you guys... Stupid arguments like the ones following my previous post are the reasons I'm not a very active poster.

The point was that there are many, many counters to the chimera wall, and that simply complaining about it without considering the negatives AND how you can, you know, use "tactics" to defeat their tactics is asking for responses.

starbomber109 wrote:The Monolith.

It ignores FIVE of fifth edition's rules. Partly because it's from a really old codex that needs an update (how does deep striking it work anyways?!), but also because of LIVING METAL, which in 5th makes it nearly impossible to destroy.

Good thing it phases out

(For the record, I don't think the 3+ invulnerable save is 'broken' on terminators, it just changes the type of weapon you need to kill them.)

Its no more difficult to destroy it with anything non-melta than it is a landraider. It deepstrikes by teleporting to the surface. Maybe I don't know but what other rules are you thinking of?

the best way to deal with a monolith is to ignore it and concentrate on the rest of the army.get it to phase out and that monolith is gone.

In other words - exactly what you did in 3rd and 4th. The new tougher vehicle rules simply mean that "choice" is even less attractive.

yeah true.

Oh, fzorgle. That's good.

But really, as an IG that depends on cover I HATE the fact that lash can drag me into assault and on a MC with wings no less. Far too long of a range.

Lash is more OP than SS Termies.

Was playing the other day vs. marines and I just kept lashing 10+Vulkan into the corner. No need to even shoot at it.

GMMStudios wrote:Lash is more OP than SS Termies.

Was playing the other day vs. marines and I just kept lashing 10+Vulkan into the corner. No need to even shoot at it.

Why weren't they in a transport :\

Exactly - lash is so easy to counter, by everyone but what - nids and necrons?

kaptaink wrote:

GMMStudios wrote:Lash is more OP than SS Termies.

Was playing the other day vs. marines and I just kept lashing 10+Vulkan into the corner. No need to even shoot at it.

Why weren't they in a transport :\

In fairness, most Lash armies have Obliterators, they could've just had their LR blown up.

Chimeras?

Seriously? All I ever get are rear and side shots on those squishy vehicles. That might be due to my cheesy Drop Pod/Scout Moving/Outflanking Space marines though!

Tantras wrote:

kaptaink wrote:

GMMStudios wrote:Lash is more OP than SS Termies.

Was playing the other day vs. marines and I just kept lashing 10+Vulkan into the corner. No need to even shoot at it.

Why weren't they in a transport :\

In fairness, most Lash armies have Obliterators, they could've just had their LR blown up.

Then where was his Psychic Hood? A competitive list would have one if you're anywhere above 1500 points... Just saying.

MR - exaclty.

Not having any fast movingt units able to get to the rear / side is a failing of the user, not of the chimera.

how did fzorgle get to mean lash?


i don't chimeras themselves are OPed, but i think the wall can be at times. The vehicle itself can be easily destroyed by a great number of things and I don't seem to have much trouble dealing with them or it seems to have people dealing with my own. i do see them as highly useful for their points value but i don't think are overpowered.

i see overpowered at looking at a unit and being like oh *** i will never be able to kill that with anything i have, or just kill everything on the table at once instead of being a particular weapon/unit made for a particular role that lets kill every moving thing and winthe game by turn two role, isn't which i feel is what every non-broken unit is made to do. chimeras have a role, and are not impossible to kill, i would say that aren't even that hard to kill def in city fight where side army can easily be found.




i hope that makes some sort of sense

Nork.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Volkov wrote:

Psyker Battle Squads neuter Nob Biker Mobs; lower their Leadership, pin them down, pour firepower onto them.

if they take both a warboss and wazdakka, then you need to inflict 8 s8 wounds in a single shooting phase for them to take a Ld check. so with a 3 up cover that's 24 wounds which means 30 hits at BS 3 means 60 s8 shots. No problem. And thats not even to kill them all thats just to force a ld test

This type of math is of course largely meaningless, as it's not really taking you 60 shots to cause a single wound. Each BS3 S8 shot has a 14% chance to inflict a wound, so that wound could come from the first shot for all you know. A single volley from a Manticore is very likely to sneak by at least one kill and then those Nob Bikers need snake eyes to not get pinned.

Psykers + ordnance are a great counter to nob bikers.