Hey guys,

I was wondering, are there any chapters, regiments or worlds in the fluff that are stated to be dominated by a non-caucasian ethnicity?

All I can think of with my limited fluff knowledge is the White Scars.

It really seems to me that 40k fluff is dominated by images of the Aryan superman (Cadia, Macragge, etc.). I'd like to see some more diversity... I mean, the only characters I am aware of who were black were both in the DoW series, the Inquisitor guy and Jonah Orion.

I heard the Salamanders used to be black but were retconned? The guy who told me about this said it was because Salamanders used to have -1 Initiative because they came from a high-gravity world, but people were misunderstanding the reasoning...

It surely makes sense that there would be non-whites in the Imperium at any rate.

Actually, it probably makes even more sense than in 38,000 years we'd have eliminated the concept of race and all interbred together to make a nice standardised ethnicity (that wouldn't be white)... Then again, I guess humanity got seperated during the Dark Age of Technology... ack, it's hard!

You can pretty much make anything what you want it to be.

I don't think that there is any deliberate exclusion on GW's part.

As Mr. Burning said, you can make the fluff what ever you want it to be. In my IG army, I have a vet squad that is black and my Primrias Psyker is also black. I believe that the Salamanders are black and they do come from a heavy gravity planet.

guardpiper wrote:As Mr. Burning said, you can make the fluff what ever you want it to be. In my IG army, I have a vet squad that is black and my Primrias Psyker is also black. I believe that the Salamanders are black and they do come from a heavy gravity planet.

Salamanders are now coal-coloured as a result of radiation, I was told that wasn't always the case.

My IG army also has a black veteran squad, so ditto!

But I just wanted to know if there is any OFFICIAL fluff.

The people who live on Nocturne(Salamander home world) are white, but when a Initiate recieves the geneseed the genes react to the radiation on Nocturne causing their skin to grow excessive amounts of Melinen(spelling?) and their eyes to turn bright red(some sort of radiation shielding)


The fluff doesn't really say anything about race and only occasionally someone has an exceptional skin tone.

I like that the fluff leaves race, except whether you're green or not , out of it.

Personally i think bringing up racial differences and demanding Political correctness is a form of racisim.

I hadn't brought political correctness into it, had I? I'd been waiting for someone *else* to accuse me of it, mind, but yeah... if anyone was ever offended by 40k, I'd expect it to be politically correct... but you've evidently misunderstood me

I'm just asking if there are any racial minorities present in the fluff, what's wrong with that?

The Salamanders as stated, but the original fluff from Rogue Trader stated that all marines has the same reaction when exposed to radiation. So if you want to use this then there is a reason why any marine can be of colour or indeed race when you consider that all marines were originally normal humans at some point.

Many BL novels that I have read have included ethnic minorities, Wystan Frauka in the Ravenor trilogy for example. But this is more in the desciption of his skin tone. The differances that we [21st century man] would usually descriminate on would seem pretty trivial I would imagine, 41st millenium man seems to be more concerned with class/nobility and planet of birth. As others have stated the human race would be a pretty well shaken up biological hot pot.

In a culture where xenophobia is looked upon as a good personality trait, the colour of ones skin, gender, sexuality are not really formost in peoples minds. United against the Alien and all that, unless you are a mutie then you can feth off!

That being said I wouldn't expect too much in the way of racially segregated squads or regiments as when included against the overal Imperial tyrany/genocidal/xenophobic overtones of the 40k universe that might be a bit too near the mark for modern day publicists/toy makers.

I would stick to this where wargaming is concerned - if it looks cool go with it!

I didn't mean to imply they were segregated, but I've thought of another example... the Tallarn!

I just meant that individual planets have individual ethinicities.

that reminds me from the first Gaunt's ghosts books... the Vitrian regiment that appeared... for their description, they should be dark skinned, Maybe South American or black people...

I can't recall any particular planet or system being dominated by a single race. However, I can recall seeing references to various races and regional back story for certain guard regiments and civilians. Even the space marines have racial variation. I think the dominance of white characters has more to do with the number of white players, writers, and staff. I could see where the company might feel awkward describing race when its such an unimportant detail in the far flung future but such a hot-button issue in today's society.

Make up your own fluff, don't need any approval for something like this.

My old Imp guard had a Hispanic colored HSO and a Black Lascannon operator

@Bavius

On Cadia they're all blonde and blue-eyed apparently.

Do Space Marines have racial variations? I wouldn't know, if so, are these amongst chapters that recruit from various worlds?

I mean the White Scars are an example of a Space Marine that I am pretty certain is formed up of one ethnicity.

I'm not really after approval, I was just curious as to whether any non-white organisations existed beyond the White Scars and Tallarn.

There's a black commissar in Cadian Blood (he ain't Cadian, however). Weren't Eisenhorn's pilots (father and daughter) also black?

IIRC the guys with the glass armor in the first book of Gaunts ghosts books were black or at least really really tan to red.

Manchu wrote:Weren't Eisenhorn's pilots (father and daughter) also black?

Yes indeed.

For thousands of years after Caliban blew up Dark angels where Navajo or possibly Hopi.

Yea they used to be native american, untill they turned into Monk- Marines.

The robes are pretty sweet though imo.

The whole reason that Deathwing armor is white is becuase of this and why it may be centuries (if ever) before they can recruit from this world again.

It's a big galaxy and the human race has spread out like a wave of vermin. Current ethic "groups" (caucasian, asian, afro-carribean etc etc) have no relevance at all. 38,000 years of breeding and new environments is plenty of time for untold new "groups" to spring up, fall, mix etc.

If anything, I'd find a regiment of <insert current ethnicity> IG to be distinctly out of place. Invent one that befits the setting.

Henners91 wrote:@Bavius

On Cadia they're all blonde and blue-eyed apparently.

.

negative. on Cadia natives are just violet/blue eyes.
i think the natural hair colour there is black/brunette actually.

Pedro Kantor...

If he's not mexican what is he?

poipo32 wrote:Pedro Kantor...

If he's not mexican what is he?

Space-Mexican, duh.

Nurglitch wrote:

poipo32 wrote:Pedro Kantor...

If he's not mexican what is he?

Space-Mexican, duh.

Second and lol

dark6spectre wrote:

Henners91 wrote:@Bavius

On Cadia they're all blonde and blue-eyed apparently.

.

negative. on Cadia natives are just violet/blue eyes.
i think the natural hair colour there is black/brunette actually.

Yep according to the fluff in Cadian Blood, its dark hair and violet (see purple) eyes... Something to do with the eye apparently.

fething hell... the Redemptionists are burning an Aquilla on my lawn again...

Black Corsair wrote:that reminds me from the first Gaunt's ghosts books... the Vitrian regiment that appeared... for their description, they should be dark skinned, Maybe South American or black people...

The Vitrian Dragoons! They had reversable glass armour and towing glass cities. The celtic tanith seem like saveges compared to them.


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Henners91 wrote:@Bavius

On Cadia they're all blonde and blue-eyed apparently.

Do Space Marines have racial variations? I wouldn't know, if so, are these amongst chapters that recruit from various worlds?

I mean the White Scars are an example of a Space Marine that I am pretty certain is formed up of one ethnicity.

I'm not really after approval, I was just curious as to whether any non-white organisations existed beyond the White Scars and Tallarn.

The Salamanders are Black. They're even described as Negroid. Cadians have many different skin tones but actually they all have purple eyes! Dark Angels and Black Templars recruit from all over the galaxy and so are multicultural too. (there are many like them but they are the most famous.)


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The Fox Lord wrote:For thousands of years after Caliban blew up Dark angels where Navajo or possibly Hopi.

What? They seem pretty British to me.

Well there you go, a fabuloso recital of lore

Nice to see GW apparently caucasian-centred... I'd just like to see a chapter or regiment that actually has black skin in its paint scheme, mind.


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The Fox Lord wrote:For thousands of years after Caliban blew up Dark angels where Navajo or possibly Hopi.

What? They seem pretty British to me.

Henners91 wrote:Well there you go, a fabuloso recital of lore

Nice to see GW apparently caucasian-centred... I'd just like to see a chapter or regiment that actually has black skin in its paint scheme, mind.


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The Fox Lord wrote:For thousands of years after Caliban blew up Dark angels where Navajo or possibly Hopi.

What? They seem pretty British to me.

With *those* Officer Uniforms? Martial culture? They reek Germanic to me, but I've yet to read Cadian Blood.

I'm also biased since Lexicanum essentially establishes them to be sausage-eating blonde haired, blue eyed rascals:

"Cadia was settled sometime in the early 32nd millennium by humans, who quickly became the dominant species. The Cadian people are naturally tall, fair-skinned, with blonde hair and blue or purple eyes."

Or ofc we can just content ourselves by saying THEY'RE STARSHIP TROOPERS, Y'ALL.

Every single planet in the Imperium will have various ethnicities depending on climate, white skin does not indicate that they are all caucasian (in fact caucasian itself includes non-white skinned people).

In the 41st Millennium people with white skin are almost certainly not caucasian but any one of thousands of different ethnicities which exhibit white skin, just the same that any other colour of skin does not indicate asian, african or any other current day ethnicity.

For instance as an example and for sake of argument we will ignore the fact Salamanders have red eyes and coal black skin, let's just say they were a shade of brown, that does not make them in any way negroid, it makes them Nocturnian an ethnicity which resembles that of current day afro-caribbean peoples.

Gogsnik wrote:Every single planet in the Imperium will have various ethnicities depending on climate, white skin does not indicate that they are all caucasian (in fact caucasian itself includes non-white skinned people).

In the 41st Millennium people with white skin are almost certainly not caucasian but any one of thousands of different ethnicities which exhibit white skin, just the same that any other colour of skin does not indicate asian, african or any other current day ethnicity.

For instance as an example and for sake of argument we will ignore the fact Salamanders have red eyes and coal black skin, let's just say they were a shade of brown, that does not make them in any way negroid, it makes them Nocturnian an ethnicity which resembles that of current day afro-caribbean peoples.

Oh ya, everyone agrees that you're going to see alot of different people across a million worlds. There's 2 BL books that actually have people with greyish skin.
The question is are non-white people under represented in their model ranges. It true that 16 out of the 18 Legions were white people. There's alot of reasons for this but I don't actually think GW is racist. Its just that almost everything in 40K is based on a real culture and most of the human armies are based on WWI, WWII (for IG) and Roman and Greek (for SM) stuff.
Also I always have some black dudes in my IG army and honestly they don't look very good. Painting black skin is super-hard!

It seems your look at race from a 21century earth based point of view. In the 41 millenium the typical "races" that exist on earth nowadays dont really have much relavence. Just because Cadians are mainly light skinned doesnt mean they are Caucasian, only that on Cadia there is a race of light skinned people. Having an all white regiment isnt some discrimination whites only policy from GW, have you noticed that it takes alot more paints to get "white" skin colour correctly? more paints = more money

Having an all black vet squad is almost more rasist btw just do what you want and have them scattered around the regiment like in the modern military

idk my 2 cents

Because of all of the issues humanity has 41 thousand years in the future issues like race, sexuality, and so on aren't even a drop in the bucket when you have chaos, orks, the dark eldar, necrons and so on...

The vast majority of humanity has no real understanding of Chaos and proportionally most have no first hand knowledge of aliens either, certainly in those areas of the background which discuss ordinary life for humans there is little interest in aliens et cetera.

We do know that humans continue to have a tribal mindset and why shouldn't they, it is what humans are and if anything it is more pronounced. Psykers are mistrusted and persecuted, abhumans have at various times been routinely culled if not simply killed on sight and members of one world do use, what would be termed currently, racist attitudes towards members of other worlds, like calling Catachans half ogryn for example.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The question is are non-white people under represented in their model ranges.

I would say no.

like calling Catachans half ogryn for example.

Which by the way is not recommended.

I doubt GW was actually thinking of race when they made 40k. I don't think it would add anything to add ethnicity to 40k either. Unless they did something awesome like a chapter or army based around Native American or African ideology or some such. I do remember seeing one guy take models of African Tutsi tribesmen and make an IG army out of 'em. It was awesome. I wonder if he ever finished. (Fluff was kinda cool too)

make them what ever you want to and you will see different things in the world especially marines and gaurds

40k has a bit of a 'star trek' thing to it - the idea that, instead of a planet having racial diversity, they stick to each planet having the same skin tone and accent. It's silly, but it's long established in sci-fi.

BL makes a lot of mention of skin tone, but never anything as simple as black or white, or racial stereotypes we'd recognise today - for example, they describe Zeph Mathuin as having 'very dark' skin in Ravenor, as well as some of the Rememberancers and the Aghoru in Thousand Sons. Usually descriptions are 'dark skin' or 'pale skin' or 'sandy skin' dependent upon planet. Other times they use accent - Cadians have a strong Eastern European theme considering their names, place names etc. There's a hunter in Eisenhorn who comes across very South African, when his accent is described as very clipped. The assumption is that there are lots of racial/planetary combinations that we don't have now that have evolved over twenty thousand years on a weird planet - someone like Zeph Mathuin may be 'black' in the sense we see it, and thus look like what we would call West African or Caribbean, or he may just have very dark skin, and facial features of an Inuit - we don't know, and anything is possible.

The model range, however, is very centred around caucasian-looking models. I think this is really for the avoidance of sending racial messages. With their 'generic GW' facial features you could get away with painting them Caucasian, Hispanic, North African, Middle Eastern, Indian, even Central Asian (Mongol/WhiteScar). However, if you make a model range with Black African features or Asian features then you're sending out a clear message as to who they intend these models to be or how they should be painted.

EDIT - plus, of course, they're a UK company selling mostly to the western world and referencing mainly WW1, WW2 and classical ancient history. The majority of references are European/North American/Mediterranean....

The Blood Ravens recruit from a number of planets

Gogsnik wrote:

We do know that humans continue to have a tribal mindset and why shouldn't they, it is what humans are and if anything it is more pronounced. Psykers are mistrusted and persecuted, abhumans have at various times been routinely culled if not simply killed on sight and members of one world do use, what would be termed currently, racist attitudes towards members of other worlds, like calling Catachans half ogryn for example.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The question is are non-white people under represented in their model ranges.

I would say no.

How da ya figure?


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sc0ttfree wrote:It seems your look at race from a 21century earth based point of view. In the 41 millenium the typical "races" that exist on earth nowadays dont really have much relavence. Just because Cadians are mainly light skinned doesnt mean they are Caucasian, only that on Cadia there is a race of light skinned people. Having an all white regiment isnt some discrimination whites only policy from GW, have you noticed that it takes alot more paints to get "white" skin colour correctly? more paints = more money

Having an all black vet squad is almost more rasist btw just do what you want and have them scattered around the regiment like in the modern military

idk my 2 cents

Agreed. Unless in your own regiment's fiction there is segregation.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:How da ya figure?

Because the question is largely bunk. There is no requisite for Games Workshop to paint its studio armies any particular skin tone. As already mentioned most of the armies are based on historical or fictional armies or characters and the skin tones used reflect those inspirations. With that in mind there are exactly as many white skinned or non-white skinned models as there needs to be.

Secondly, as already pointed out, the generic features of the models and the generic white toned skin most of them use is neutral, the models could literally be anyone whereas, in today's politicised atmosphere, choosing to use specific non-white skin tones might well give the wrong impression about what exactly Games Workshop is trying to tell its customers and might well provide an excuse for groups to attack the company. You might think that sounds like an odd comment but I have seen whole sites dedicated to portraying Games Workshop as some bizarre brainwashing centre, teaching children about urban combat tactics with veiled references to Israel (no, seriously, apparently they're all death toys).

In background terms I've already outlined my position that in no serious way, can or should the ethnicites of the various Imperial worlds be traced back to actual current day ethnic groups as it just isn't that likely that any of them would survive on other worlds after tens of thousands of years of exposure to other climates and environments.

Gogsnik has got it right. By this time in the future we'll all be so mixed and mashed together that you won't be able to trace a single bloodline. Ethnic groups will disappear and new ones will form and disappear a thousand years later, there is really no reason for GW to be conscience of race when painting figures.

Henners91 wrote:Hey guys,

I was wondering, are there any chapters, regiments or worlds in the fluff that are stated to be dominated by a non-caucasian ethnicity?

All I can think of with my limited fluff knowledge is the White Scars.

It really seems to me that 40k fluff is dominated by images of the Aryan superman (Cadia, Macragge, etc.). I'd like to see some more diversity... I mean, the only characters I am aware of who were black were both in the DoW series, the Inquisitor guy and Jonah Orion.

I heard the Salamanders used to be black but were retconned? The guy who told me about this said it was because Salamanders used to have -1 Initiative because they came from a high-gravity world, but people were misunderstanding the reasoning...

It surely makes sense that there would be non-whites in the Imperium at any rate.

Actually, it probably makes even more sense than in 38,000 years we'd have eliminated the concept of race and all interbred together to make a nice standardised ethnicity (that wouldn't be white)... Then again, I guess humanity got seperated during the Dark Age of Technology... ack, it's hard!

Salamanders were originally as they now are. They became negroid at some point and the 4th? ed space marine codex shows one with a heavy weapon who isn't wearing a helmet and has obvious negro features. As I understand it, all marines are capable of producing extra melanin to protect themselves from radiation but the salamanders are famed for it.

As for races, given 38,000 years of separation for the core populations of the planets, it's likely that there would be countless races amongst emperor knows how many sub-species and species. It's quite possible that human genetics could have diverged enough to make it hard, if not impossible for "humans" from one planet to have viable offspring with those of another.

ok once again people: we're not talking about the fluff. There's all kinds of people in the fluff.
In the model ranges painted by their studios there's only the Salamanders, the White Scars and a few Catachans.

Yes, you can paint you models anyway you want. You can paint your Ultramarines pink and your Orks with purple skin but we all know that's not really the colour they are. Your instant reaction is "that's not right".

not to be rude to the OP but why does he care so much about racial diversity being represented in a miniatures game?

why are there no black guardsmen? no zulu themed marines?

here are a few reasons:

1. The imperium, although its supposed to be a pan galactic empire composed of billions of peoples and planets, has very strong roman and germanic/gothic influences. Space marines are based on the roman legions and/or knightly orders of Europe, imperial gothic=bastard Latin, the list goes on. GW is European and the world they created is based on European history and culture.

2. If we're talking about actual racial diversity/equality within imperial society...no dice, i hate to say it but the closest parallel you could draw between the imperium and a real world nation would be Nazi Germany...if you want an equal opportunity employer go tau

Again, i don't think that GW is making a conscious, malicious decision to exclude racially diverse models. if GW had started up in South Africa we would probably have Primarch shaka vs British colonial Orks or something...at which point you would start a thread about the lack of imperial Caucasians....

well said Maledictus

Maledictus wrote:not to be rude to the OP but why does he care so much about racial diversity being represented in a miniatures game?

why are there no black guardsmen? no zulu themed marines?

here are a few reasons:

1. The imperium, although its supposed to be a pan galactic empire composed of billions of peoples and planets, has very strong roman and germanic/gothic influences. Space marines are based on the roman legions and/or knightly orders of Europe, imperial gothic=bastard Latin, the list goes on. GW is European and the world they created is based on European history and culture.

2. If we're talking about actual racial diversity/equality within imperial society...no dice, i hate to say it but the closest parallel you could draw between the imperium and a real world nation would be Nazi Germany...if you want an equal opportunity employer go tau

Again, i don't think that GW is making a conscious, malicious decision to exclude racially diverse models. if GW had started up in South Africa we would probably have Primarch shaka vs British colonial Orks or something...at which point you would start a thread about the lack of imperial Caucasians....

Yes, if you read my previous posts I've pretty much said the same thing. Most IG armies are based on British, German and Russian armies of yore. Most non-white cultures are actually represented as Aliens. Eldar are Chinese and the Tau are totally Japanese. I'm not offended by that but I could see how some people feel a little unrepresented.
I think the biggest missed opportunity is not having a Space Marine chapter influenced by the Bushido Samurai. They totally go together. Many chapters are based on Euro-Knights. The Tau are like the modern Anime Japanese, with their god-damn giant robots and technology!
The Samurai's lifelong tradition of duty, honour, self sacrifice and martial discipline is perfect for Astartes. If they ain't space marines ain't nobody space marines.

I have seen black space marines. Especially REALLY Awesomely painted ones here on Dakka gallery. The only Chapter I do not see Black Marines working well is the Space Wolves and that is only because of the whole Fenris, viking Norse Myth thing they are flavored with. Don't really see very many asians, blacks or others in that type of setting or at least I haven't. OF course you don't HAVE to make it this way but still It might feel a bit awkward for that IMO.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Maledictus wrote:not to be rude to the OP but why does he care so much about racial diversity being represented in a miniatures game?

why are there no black guardsmen? no zulu themed marines?

here are a few reasons:

1. The imperium, although its supposed to be a pan galactic empire composed of billions of peoples and planets, has very strong roman and germanic/gothic influences. Space marines are based on the roman legions and/or knightly orders of Europe, imperial gothic=bastard Latin, the list goes on. GW is European and the world they created is based on European history and culture.

2. If we're talking about actual racial diversity/equality within imperial society...no dice, i hate to say it but the closest parallel you could draw between the imperium and a real world nation would be Nazi Germany...if you want an equal opportunity employer go tau

Again, i don't think that GW is making a conscious, malicious decision to exclude racially diverse models. if GW had started up in South Africa we would probably have Primarch shaka vs British colonial Orks or something...at which point you would start a thread about the lack of imperial Caucasians....

Yes, if you read my previous posts I've pretty much said the same thing. Most IG armies are based on British, German and Russian armies of yore. Most non-white cultures are actually represented as Aliens. Eldar are Chinese and the Tau are totally Japanese. I'm not offended by that but I could see how some people feel a little unrepresented.
I think the biggest missed opportunity is not having a Space Marine chapter influenced by the Bushido Samurai. They totally go together. Many chapters are based on Euro-Knights. The Tau are like the modern Anime Japanese, with their god-damn giant robots and technology!
The Samurai's lifelong tradition of duty, honour, self sacrifice and martial discipline is perfect for Astartes. If they ain't space marines ain't nobody space marines.

Thats exactly what i hate about the Tau, not the Japanese culture, just all the weaboos they brought into the hobby...

On a more serious note i agree with you that the samurai would have been the perfect basis for an SM chapter. I just get annoyed when people talk about race or gender equality in a game like 40k. if you can come up with good fluff for your pacific islander imperial guard or female marines i would be thrilled to hear it, its just that rather than come up with original fluff all you hear is, "they should exist b/c they are underrepresented". my family hails from Argentina but i'm not demanding that GW write bolas slinging Gaucho marines into the fluff...

Bolas slinging Gaucho marines would be awesome though!! I don't know what a weaboos is but ya I agree the Tau are a little bit out of place. The whole point of 40k is everyone is kinda evil and you have to pick your poison. They had a chance to make them look a little more evil when the Vespid came out. It was rumoured that those helmuts were mind control devices: but then it turned out they just like wearing big helmuts......

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Bolas slinging Gaucho marines would be awesome though!! I don't know what a weaboos is but ya I agree the Tau are a little bit out of place. The whole point of 40k is everyone is kinda evil and you have to pick your poison. They had a chance to make them look a little more evil when the Vespid came out. It was rumoured that those helmuts were mind control devices: but then it turned out they just like wearing big helmuts......

yeah damn happy go lucky anime space commies...although if I'm not mistaken the Ethereal caste does use pheromone based mind control to keep the fire caste in line

Maledictus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Bolas slinging Gaucho marines would be awesome though!! I don't know what a weaboos is but ya I agree the Tau are a little bit out of place. The whole point of 40k is everyone is kinda evil and you have to pick your poison. They had a chance to make them look a little more evil when the Vespid came out. It was rumoured that those helmuts were mind control devices: but then it turned out they just like wearing big helmuts......

yeah damn happy go lucky anime space commies...although if I'm not mistaken the Ethereal caste does use pheromone based mind control to keep the fire caste in line

ya, I'll give 'em that. That got a crazy backwards Caste system. But its genetically-based I guess....not sure if that makes it better or worse. But still they're the closest thing to the Star Trek Federation you're gonna find in 40K.

I know it was already mentioned but Salamanders are coal coloured, how do I know this? My brother came into my room and said "Do you know salamanders are actually black?"
I said to him "What does it matter?"
He says, "No they are actually black, as in ink black."
I asked him what the big deal was and he said that he had painted the entire squad of scouts ginger haired and incredibly pale.

Also I think that Catachans seem to be rather mediteranean, with their dark hair, dark eyes and tanned skin.
And the tanith seem to be something all together different with pale skin, blue and black hair... maybe they are from the Goth planet?
Tallarn raiders were obviously designed with a middle eastern/african theme in mind, but that was before the recent wars and it wasn't exactly a popular look. Which is a shame because they look like the most realistic form of the imperial guard.

But this is a good point, alot of GW's core races seem to be very western (have you seen the blood angels? they wouldn't look out of place in an ambercrombe and fitch catalogue), but that is just something that cropped up because they are a western based company played by mostly western gamers.

Far as I know, Salamanders are still charcoal black with red eyes. It's a mutation due to the radiation on Nocturne.

Tallarn are also very Arabic looking - some folks paint em' with white skin but I find they look best with a middle-eastern skintone.

You've also got the clearly Asian 'Attilan Roughriders'.

It's not that there's discrimination - it's just that the cost of molds for minis means that you're pretty much going to have to run your range on a OSFA standard to some degree. GW obviously can't be making molds for 28mm minis of assorted ethnic origins as the costs would be astronomical. Better to simply paint your minis the way you want- at 28mm I don't think a caucasian facial structure on a mini painted to have dark skin is going to be something people are pointing out

ironlord wrote:I know it was already mentioned but Salamanders are coal coloured, how do I know this? My brother came into my room and said "Do you know salamanders are actually black?"
I said to him "What does it matter?"
He says, "No they are actually black, as in ink black."
I asked him what the big deal was and he said that he had painted the entire squad of scouts ginger haired and incredibly pale.

Also I think that Catachans seem to be rather mediteranean, with their dark hair, dark eyes and tanned skin.
And the tanith seem to be something all together different with pale skin, blue and black hair... maybe they are from the Goth planet?
Tallarn raiders were obviously designed with a middle eastern/african theme in mind, but that was before the recent wars and it wasn't exactly a popular look. Which is a shame because they look like the most realistic form of the imperial guard.

But this is a good point, alot of GW's core races seem to be very western (have you seen the blood angels? they wouldn't look out of place in an ambercrombe and fitch catalogue), but that is just something that cropped up because they are a western based company played by mostly western gamers.

Whoa, Whoa:
Catachans are American. Specifically American GIs that fought in Vietnam. More specifically: Rambo.
Tanith are Irish. Black Irish to be specific.
Tallarn are Arabs.

Blood Angels got a GreecoRoman thing going on.

From: http://www.librarium-online.com/forums/imperial-guard/47308-ultimate-imperial-guard-conversion-guide.html

The Noctan Strike Forces
"They seem to have a ghostly nature about them. Their appearance and mannerism is enough to chill a man to the bone. Yet this night has proven to me that the sons of Noctan are among the bravest and most loyal men we have seen in this war."
-Commissar Yuliov commenting on the Noctan raid on the Ork-infested Archeron Hive

-Background info: The night world of Noctan is home to one of the most elite night-fighting regiments in the Galaxy. Masters of daring night raids, these dark-skinned soldiers fight with grim determination. They are known for operating for days in complete darkness without a sound.
-These guys can be made using the Cadian plastic minis as the base for converting. 'Bag out' their trousers using Green Stuff and remove the bulky shoulderplates. Fix thee remainder of the shoulder with Green Stuff. Get hold of some Necromunda backpacks and create rebreater tubes from Green Stuff. Attach the tubing to the sides of the helmet.
-Colour schemes: Paint these guys dark blue or black (they are nocturnal fighters after all). The Noctan are actually dark-skinned so the picture is a bit wrong. Also, paint the trim of the uniform in bright red and if you like, you can make a scarlet scarf and wrap it round the waist of your troops.
(Doctrines: Special Weapon Squads, Light infantry, Sharpshooters, Grenadiers, Hardened Fighters)

Ha! they're white in the picture. Also they're not a studio army.
There's only 3 non-white studio armies: Salamanders, White Scars and Tallarn. (and the occasional Catachan).

The Imperial Fists are probably the most diverse (racially) marine chapter, their chapter master is Russian (Vladimir Pugh), head chaplain is Chinese (Lo Chang).

Since they recruit from Earth and nearby systems, it's probable that Earth (Terra) had different racial groups (i.e countries) populate the various planets during the Dark Age of Technology, hence only a few racial groups on different planets (as Earth and the nearby systems are still racially diverse).

Yes, i hadn't thought of that. There are many fleet based chapters (Dark Angels) that recruit from all over the galaxy.

All of my guardsmen are painted with dark flesh, and Vulkan is the black primarch. I think they are cleverly avoid any racial conflict by not making a big deal out of it. I am african american and to me they are trying to create a universe where you are human or non-human. Recognition in the 40k universe is to acknowledge a difference, and if you are different in the slightest way you are consider abhuman.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst billions. It is to live in the crullest and most bloody regime imaginable.

But the universe is a big place and whatever happens you will not be missed

Thats the first thing you read when you open the rule book, I think ethnic background is the least of their worries.

CKO wrote:All of my guardsmen are painted with dark flesh, and Vulkan is the black primarch. I think they are cleverly avoid any racial conflict by not making a big deal out of it. I am african american and to me they are trying to create a universe where you are human or non-human. Recognition in the 40k universe is to acknowledge a difference, and if you are different in the slightest way you are consider abhuman.

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst billions. It is to live in the crullest and most bloody regime imaginable.

But the universe is a big place and whatever happens you will not be missed

Thats the first thing you read when you open the rule book, I think ethnic background is the least of their worries.

Yep, that's probably the only good thing about living in the Imperium!

For some reason theres no worlds in fluff that have naturaly black inhabitants. But since theres not many color fluff pictures so its hard to tell. For the purposes of realism, I paint my cadians a mix of different skin tones, because unless you live on an ice world a planet will have black & white people, but, like many sci-fi unis, it makes all people have color depending on species or planet, rather then based on whether there part of a planet is hot or cold. I mean, Earth's not like that now. But you do see black commies and very few planets have all black people. But none have a mix of skin tones. But star wars made that mistake, so who can blame gw.

felixthecat345 wrote:For some reason theres no worlds in fluff that have naturaly black inhabitants. But since theres not many color fluff pictures so its hard to tell. For the purposes of realism, I paint my cadians a mix of different skin tones, because unless you live on an ice world a planet will have black & white people, but, like many sci-fi unis, it makes all people have color depending on species or planet, rather then based on whether there part of a planet is hot or cold. I mean, Earth's not like that now. But you do see black commies and very few planets have all black people. But none have a mix of skin tones. But star wars made that mistake, so who can blame gw.

There are worlds in the fluff, like Vitria, just not in the models. It's not really a mistake in Star Wars its more of a tradition: "All Worlds shall only have one type of terrain!" Its kinda stupid but its part of their Universe.

There's black guys on the cover of Codex: Catachans and Cityfight, FWIW...

As far as fluff goes, the Vitrians and Glavians were already mentioned, but it's also fair to point out that it's not as if Imperial hive cities are full of white folks: they're more an unhealthy gray pallor.

And for painting, I've been slowly painting an IG army for a friend of mine, and I mix in various skin tones to keep things interesting. Early on I painted a black Kasrkin sergeant for his command squad, and his girlfriend (my friend's, not the sergeant's) thought it was really neat that I'd thought to do so.

Ya they's some grey folk in Traitor General and Galaxy in Flames too.

The more racial diverse it gets.

ironlord wrote:
Also I think that Catachans seem to be rather mediteranean, with their dark hair, dark eyes and tanned skin.

They're based off John Rambo, a character played by Sylvester Stallone (who is of Italian ancestry) in some movies made a few decades back. It's where Sly Marbo gets his name: Marbo=Rambo and Sly was a nickname for Sylvester.

And the tanith seem to be something all together different with pale skin, blue and black hair...

They're celts, mostly Scottish and Irish inspired which is why they have dark hair and pale skin. They don't have blue hair they have blue tattoos.

Tallarn raiders were obviously designed with a middle eastern/african theme in mind, but that was before the recent wars and it wasn't exactly a popular look. Which is a shame because they look like the most realistic form of the imperial guard.

They're a Bedouin type people based on the arabs that helped the British during WWI, the time of Lawrence of Arabia. Lawrence was a British officer who helped the arabs rebel against the Turks.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:

felixthecat345 wrote:For some reason theres no worlds in fluff that have naturaly black inhabitants. But since theres not many color fluff pictures so its hard to tell. For the purposes of realism, I paint my cadians a mix of different skin tones, because unless you live on an ice world a planet will have black & white people, but, like many sci-fi unis, it makes all people have color depending on species or planet, rather then based on whether there part of a planet is hot or cold. I mean, Earth's not like that now. But you do see black commies and very few planets have all black people. But none have a mix of skin tones. But star wars made that mistake, so who can blame gw.

There are worlds in the fluff, like Vitria, just not in the models. It's not really a mistake in Star Wars its more of a tradition: "All Worlds shall only have one type of terrain!" Its kinda stupid but its part of their Universe.

Something that has been copied by other sci-fi franchises now unfortunately including 40K.


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felixthecat345 wrote:For some reason theres no worlds in fluff that have naturaly black inhabitants.

The inhabitants of such worlds tend to represent stereotypes of known cultures or blends of related cultures such as with the Tanith. What would a black planet be like if we were to base it on known black cultural stereotypes? We already have Zulu guardsmen with grass skirts and shields, we'd get more of the same and maybe some Harlem circa 1970s complete with afros and boom boxes to round it off. Best leave that sort of thing to those who are actually interesting in it to write about instead of demanding that the core writing staff come up with something that is about a cultural and racial group they have little understanding of and doesn't actually exist anyway.

For interest, what do you imagine one such black inhabited planet would be like?

A jungle. In fact everyone from Catachan should be black.

Remember, "race" takes on a different connotation in the 40k world. Instead of reffering to skin tone, it refers to if you're a human or a xeno.

And you could make the argument that all races have blended out, but I'd actually imagine they'd only become more distinct. I mean, few people leave their home planets, and so you get a lot of interbreeding that came from an original pool of colonists. I mean, Ogryn and ratlings are great examples of racial diversity being more extreme.

That said, given that just the planet earth can house so many ethnicities, it would make sense that other planets would as well.

Personally, I don't run a white army - I run a more caucasian army proper (as in, they have "white" facial features, but not white skin). You could say my army looks Uzbek or Arab or, in a pinch, Italian, but they're definitely not white.

cadbren wrote:For interest, what do you imagine one such black inhabited planet would be like?

Like you said, a Savannah world with Zulu tribes on it... Is there really one in the fluff?

Ailaros wrote:
And you could make the argument that all races have blended out, but I'd actually imagine they'd only become more distinct. I mean, few people leave their home planets, and so you get a lot of interbreeding that came from an original pool of colonists.

This makes complete sense for worlds that have been colonised by the Imperium. With that first wave of colonists (whatever colour or ethnicity they may have been comprised of) there is very little to encourage racial diversity or a multicultural society, unless there were further waves of colonists from other areas. This is a valid reason as to why Catachan fighters are mainly, if not always, portrayed as white. Obviously, GW was going for the US in Vietnam look, but it also makes sense becuase the Catachan are descendants of the survivors of a colonial ship that was stranded there. Assuming that the colony ship wasn't all that mixed, there's no real reason to find a dark-skinned Catachan at all.

Then there is the arguement of how the human race would react if aliens were ever to invade or whatever. Would you really care whether your mate was a differenct race or colour? Are you even going to compare him to the angry alien with 6 limbs and a lasergun? This would provide a good arguement as to why racism probably isn't much of a deal in the Imperium as a whole. They've got bigger fish to fry.

Some people seem to have issues understanding that the Salamanders skin color is caused by the way the geneseed reacts to the radiation on Nocturne, and it has nothing to do with ethnicity.

I am sure that throughout the millions of worlds in the 40K universe there are countless different human races, and there should be marines around who were recruited from those worlds.

Also, there should be ethnicity out there that doesn't compare to any of that known to us in our reality. Some chapters recruit exclusively from the same world/system, and some get recruits from everywhere they find worthy souls. Basically, in theory there could be a purple skinned Black Templar around who happens to have been recruited off some distant planet.

GW doesn't bother with all of this because it would probably complicate things unnecessarily.

@ Emperors Faithful: It is a fact that gets over looked pretty often in history but a disproportionate number of soldiers drafted for the Vietnam War on the American side where black. Over all the majority of the soldiers were white but black people in the US were still a minority at that time and the ratio of percentage of people in the US to percentage of people drafted was noticably different between black and white people. This was mostly due to economic factors, if you couldn't afford to go to college and had no where to run away to then there was no way to avoid the draft. I would agree that GW thought this would be a good way to represent Americans in the IG but making them almost all white was a swing and a miss.

There once was a zulu themed chapter, they were "taller than your average marine. Salamanders used to be black. There fluff has John Hengry all over it. Mixed with the big black guy blacksmith, swinging a even bigger hammer. I haven't figured out what the connection is with black guys and being blacksmiths, but it is normal fantasy fare. Speaking of that. There is a pic and nice story about an black inquisitor swing a big hammer in the daemonhunter's codex. also there is an black inquisitor in Dawn of war with a big ole deamonhammer. there is a pic of a black sister of battle in thier old codex.

Also lets use Black instead of negroid please

Xyptc wrote:It's a big galaxy and the human race has spread out like a wave of vermin. Current ethic "groups" (caucasian, asian, afro-carribean etc etc) have no relevance at all. 38,000 years of breeding and new environments is plenty of time for untold new "groups" to spring up, fall, mix etc.

If anything, I'd find a regiment of <insert current ethnicity> IG to be distinctly out of place. Invent one that befits the setting.

^This. The original reasons for skin variations is long long gone. I think it would be more likely to see odd things crop up like people with large ears or bigger eyes or whatever weirdness was caused by a particular planet's peculiarities. But even 2nd generation white/black offspring lose a lot of their darkness in my experience. You'd have to stay racially pure over 1900 generations to maintain the same tone. Though I'm not sure what the baseline would be. On terra and other very poluted planets, it probably would be a fairly arian white so they could absorb as much sunlight for vitamin d processing -- assuming there wasn't some hi-tech alternative. But across a million worlds? Who's to say we wouldn't all be bright pink?

If I recall, no one has ever seen a Death Korps of Kriegsman out of gasmaks; maybe they are all black?

tigonesskay wrote:Because of all of the issues humanity has 41 thousand years in the future issues like race, sexuality, and so on aren't even a drop in the bucket when you have chaos, orks, the dark eldar, necrons and so on...

This is likely to be true. For example, Grifen and Magot, the lesbian couple in the Cain series, were basically discretely ignored as long as they performed as troopers.

Do your job and the Imperium doesn't give a damn about your race, sexuality, or gender. The Imperium is an equal opportunity oppressor. Unless you're a xeno or for some reason declared a mutant, in which case you're probably going to die and/or be oppressed even harder.

We're also forgetting the dark age of technology, who knows what kinds of genetic engineering was carried out during that time - genes to produce blue hair, red eyes, striped skin, extra fingers, whatever.

cadbren wrote:We're also forgetting the dark age of technology, who knows what kinds of genetic engineering was carried out during that time - genes to produce blue hair, red eyes, striped skin, extra fingers, whatever.

In the Barrington J. Bailey short story, Children of the Emperor, the human population had been genetically altered into a hardy centaur people to survive on a high gravity death world; the Guardsmen that ends up there is almost crushed by the atmosphere and can barely breath until one of the locals gives him an ancient anti-grav harness to wear.

I didn't see them mentioned in this thread, but there's also the Atillans who, as you can see, are clearly Asian.

In my very very old WD Some Guardsmen (Catachans) are displayed with brown skin

Also, it was noted in one of the Ciaphas Cain books (I think the first one) that one of the Valhallan troopers stood out because of her darker skin (Her parents presumably being immigrants to Valhalla for whatever reason).

Wait, why would soldiers that live on a ice world be dark skinned?

Read what Melissia said.

"Immigrants".

The Imperium has vastly differing worlds. And immigration isn't exactly strictly controlled.

Actually, something everyone has forgotten about: Thousand Sons are Egyptian!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Actually, something everyone has forgotten about: Thousand Sons are Egyptian!

As an egyptian (seriously) I've always found that aspect of them cool Still not as cool as the Black Legion
Btw

-Atillans
-Harlon Nyl (Black guy)
-Death world (Black guy)
-Salamanders (Black guys..though due to radiation. Cept from Dak'ir. He's half'n half )

I've always liked to think of the Crimson Fists as mexican, since two of their characters are named Pedro and Cortez.

That's a very American outlook. I would figure they're Spanish.

Both Dorn and Kantor are German names I just found out. Dorn means 'thorn' and referred to someone who lived near a thorn bush. Kantor comes from the name for a type of singer from mediaeval times.


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Shadowbrand wrote:Wait, why would soldiers that live on a ice world be dark skinned?

Because they're tanned from the sun beating down on them and reflecting up from the ground. I think light skin is an adaption to living in cloudy environments, not cold ones.

You have mentioned the salamanders and tallarens, but also there are Valhallans who are based on russians and Attilans who are based on the Mongolians....these are the only named IG armies i can think of..the rest are caucasian...dont forget though the other thousands of forces of the imperium...if even 1/4 of the named armies are ethnic then there must be 1000's of others not named out there

Tanith Are Typical Celts As People Hae Already Mentioned,,

I Wouldn't Be Surprised If There Were People With Bright Orange Skin Due To Exposure To Too Much Sun

Foeburner wrote:You have mentioned the salamanders and tallarens, but also there are Valhallans who are based on russians and Attilans who are based on the Mongolians....these are the only named IG armies i can think of..the rest are caucasian...dont forget though the other thousands of forces of the imperium...if even 1/4 of the named armies are ethnic then there must be 1000's of others not named out there

Eh? Russians are caucasians, they look like europeans. Soviet era armies also included lots of asians in them because places like Kazakstan, Uzbekistan and so on have lots of people with asian and mixed asian/caucasian heritage. Some of these people live in Russia today sure but your average Russian is white. Think of the name too, Valhallans, as in Valhalla, the Norse underworld where warriors killed in battle went and await the coming of Ragnarok for the final battle at the world's end when the endless winter comes. The Russians are supposedly named for the Rus, a group of Vikings who set up a number of towns such as Kiev and united the local slavic tribes into the Russian people.


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MenOfTanith wrote:
Tanith Are Typical Celts As People Hae Already Mentioned,,

I Wouldn't Be Surprised If There Were People With Bright Orange Skin Due To Exposure To Too Much Sun

I forget where they were from but a 13 year old and his father recently climbed Mt Everest, the images of them when they came down showed very orange skin from the sun and the wind.

Well, there is the Vitrians in the Gaunts Ghost first novel. If I'm not mistaken....their black.

cadbren wrote:I think light skin is an adaption to living in cloudy environments, not cold ones.

touche, sir.

I suppose it's also about light (moreso than just cloudiness), meaning that only people living on Mordia, or spend all their time indoors (forgeworlds, etc.) would be white.

OP: Tallarn can be said to be Arabic or Persian in skin tone, in the Gaunt's Ghosts books the people of Hagia can be assumed to be of some Asian descent as well.
Alos, in Necropolis, unless I'm imagining things, the people of the hive varied in skin tone immensly.

Henners91 wrote:

cadbren wrote:For interest, what do you imagine one such black inhabited planet would be like?

Like you said, a Savannah world with Zulu tribes on it... Is there really one in the fluff?

Missed this, no there isn't to my knowledge. Some Zulu inspired IG armies exist though using converted 28mm historicals such as the plastic ones produced by Wargames Factory. Blame GW on that, they produced their Praetorians based on the 19th century British army and most people immediately think of the Zulu wars when seeing them. There's two movies set in that time about the battles of Islandwana and Rourke's Drift which are respectively: Zulu Dawn and Zulu.


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True Persians have skin tones like Europeans. I met a Farsi from Afghanistan once and he looked quite European, even had red facial hair.

Imperium is quite diverse and they're not racist(expect for mutants).On Valhalla black people are rare,but there are nearby planets on which everyone is black.-Caiphas Cain
I have to agree that there is too much caucasian space marines.
This is my first post after some time of dormancy,I'm back.

IvanTih wrote:
I have to agree that there is too much caucasian space marines.

Careful how you say that eh, that comes across as racist.

WH40KGuy757 wrote:Well, there is the Vitrians in the Gaunts Ghost first novel. If I'm not mistaken....their black.

I actually got the impression that the Vitrians were supposed to be Persian/Indian/Central Asian. But it's been years since I read First and Only.

sexiest_hero wrote:there is a pic of a black sister of battle in thier old codex.

I'd be interested in seeing this, if anyone has a link.

cadbren wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
I have to agree that there is too much caucasian space marines.

Careful how you say that eh, that comes across as racist.

"Suuuure are a lot of honkeys in here".

IvanTih wrote:Imperium is quite diverse and they're not racist(expect for mutants).

Or to quote Terry Pratchett: "Racism was not a problem on the Discworld, because — what with trolls and dwarfs and so on — speciesism was more interesting. Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."

cadbren wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
I have to agree that there is too much caucasian space marines.

Careful how you say that eh, that comes across as racist.

Sorry I didn't meant to sound like that.

I got tired of painting one skin tone. My Tallarn army has lots of black Catachans in desert fatigues... One may have a mohawk and numerous gold chains

That's be priceless!

Weren't the Lucifer Blacks in the Horus Heresy books black?

beezley1981 wrote:Weren't the Lucifer Blacks in the Horus Heresy books black?

I don't think it actually said.

It's a game written by white English guys about white English guys. It's just people writing what they know, and I don't think there's any deliberate exclusion.