As you are all no doubt aware, there are some reports suggesting that the bomb found in New York may have been linked in some way to the creators of South Park.
Now, im tired of people making excuses for Islam.
We slate Mormons, Scientologists, Christianity et all in hearty doses, the Catholic church certainly gets an enormous amount of flak, Madonna gets up on stage and depicts herself in some sort of obscene crucifiction skit for example, but nobody gets killed.
Ok.. well.. maybe very rarely (Dr George Tiller for example)
The point it, our culture is better than theirs. Im not afraid to say it. If we get super pissed, we sue people. If they do, they bayonet some school kids/gas a girls school/make more death threats.
My liberal friends talk to me about my time in Afghanistan, and they say "its not our place to tell them how to run their country" or "its not our place to say their culture is wrong"
No. It is.
Our culture is better, strict muslims are innately misogynistic for example. I do not see why more people are not offended by this, where are all the femininists for example? Why are they so silent with regards to genital mutiliation and such?
Im tired of people bending over backwards to appease Islam. We have plenty of dialogue regarding all the religions of the world, but there is a war on and Islamonazis are trying their hardest to keep us from speaking about it.
So, what does dakka think the future holds? More wars? What is a likely solution?
You don't see why people are offended by it? Really?
Well there will lways be war as long as there is something to possibly gain from it. Only way it can stop is if we're all dead or there's nothing worth taking. On that bright note it's probably best not to think about it all too much, huh.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ Malfred:South Park creators got a death threat from some extremist group about their dipiction of Muhammad. Now after this poorly constructed bomb in Times Square they're trying to see if they're linked or not.
Its a video talking about an episode in which all of the major religions are mocked other than Islam, as the network asked for it to be left out fearing repurcutions.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali basically points out at the end that Islam really should be held up for account the same as every other religion. And she is entirely correct in my eyes.
It’s a complicated issue. Islam is not a culture, it’s a religion. While it is part of the culture, and religious fundamentalism of any stripe is generally bad and dangerous, the two are not one and the same.
The medieval / misogynistic / expansionist / fundamentalist / xenophobic culture which is concurrent with many (most?) Islamic Fundamentalists is the problem, and is something we can legitimately criticize and even consider our own culture superior to. However, these elements generally do not represent the entire culture of any given country, just as they do not represent the entire religion of Islam.
Yes mannahnin, but look at the OT on dakka for example, people are always whining about Christianity (me for example! )
But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.
Now many Muslims will argue that is not the case, and i dont buy it, so i want to hear an alternative theory. I am convinced that the sole reason it is criticized less is because its followers behave worse, and if that is the case, something is seriously wrong.
In what ways would my hypothesis be incorrect? Its not like you can say it gets criticized less because it is s much more nice and tolerant in comparrison to Christianity.
There's nothing wrong with the religion (or indeed any religion). It's the individuals who get stressed out about their beliefs who are the problem. And we're talking about the minority of individuals who get a dispropportinate amount of media coverage when they start ranting like zealots or do something insane. That's what really makes me mad about the Post 9/11 and 7/7 world is that thanks largely to the media, the actions of a handful of individuals have dragged us into wars that have killed millions. Sometimes I wonder what would have happened if on September 12th 2001 the world's media just shrugged their shoulders and moved onto something else.
Concluding thought... If the world is going to stay sane, we have to remember that each time somebody gets over zealous regarding their beliefs, they and their actions do not speak for the majority.
n0t_u wrote:You know I can really see this turning into a multi-page argument devolving into flaming shortly before being locked. Hopefully it will go sensibly.
The OP is a bigoted rant against approximatley a World Religion followed by approximately 1.5 billion people
what do you realistically expect?
There are multiple groups around the world trying to breed a perfect red cow just for this purpose. All past attempts ended up getting a few blemishes as the cow grew older.
To quote from the wiki article and temple article:
Some Christians believe that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ cannot occur until the Third Temple is constructed in Jerusalem, which requires the appearance of a red heifer born in Israel.
The most immediate and obvious obstacle to realization of these goals is the fact that two historic Islamic structures which are 13 centuries old, namely the Al Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, are built on top of the Temple Mount. The Dome of the Rock is regarded as occupying the actual space where the Temple once stood, and Israel has undertaken to preserve access to these buildings as part of international obligations. Any efforts to damage or reduce access to these sites, or to build Jewish structures within, between, on, or instead of them, would lead to severe international conflicts
So when one gets born then I'm sure fun times will be had by all.
mattyrm wrote:Yes mannahnin, but look at the OT on dakka for example, people are always whining about Christianity (me for example! )
But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.
It's probably because I doubt anyone here is knowledgeable enough about Islam to have decent comments to put against criticisms or even to make criticisms.
Obviously though, it doesn't stop you from making a ridiculous thread about Islam and use something that was completely refuted in the car bomb thread(Viacom's headquarters, which is conceivably what would be targeted by the car bomb if it were related to South Park? It was at least two blocks away. You really gonna tell me a fertilizer bomb would have done any damage at all to the building?) as an excuse for it and to start asking why people don't bash on Islam.
mattyrm wrote:Yes mannahnin, but look at the OT on dakka for example, people are always whining about Christianity (me for example! )
But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.
Now many Muslims will argue that is not the case, and i dont buy it, so i want to hear an alternative theory. I am convinced that the sole reason it is criticized less is because its followers behave worse, and if that is the case, something is seriously wrong.
In what ways would my hypothesis be incorrect? Its not like you can say it gets criticized less because it is s much more nice and tolerant in comparrison to Christianity.
The problem I alluded to is that you’re conflating a smaller sub-set of Islamic Fundamentalists (the violent, fanatical ones, in particular) with the larger group of everyone who belongs to the religion. Heck, while I find fundamentalists abhorrent, not even all of them are violent fanatics. So that’s three sub-sets, and I don’t think you can legitimately claim the nasty crazies allow us to condemn the larger, more reasonable group.
I don’t think the existence of violent crazies is actually particular to Islam. More to the repressive, backwards cultures found in parts of some Muslim countries. But that’s really a feature / flaw of those cultures, and their economic and social progress (or lack thereof). How they misuse their religion is just a part of the larger whole, not really a flaw of Islam in particular. There have been (and are) certainly lots of violent fundamentalist crazies from Christian, Jewish, or other religions. They’re just not as prevalent today due to the larger cultural and economic picture where they tend to live nowadays.
Falconlance wrote:
At what point is it okay to no longer be tolerant? Surely theres a limit where enough is enough? Can it be justified to be bigoted?
When 51% of muslims start believing in and demanding more 9/11 type events. Then you can unleash the nukes
I don't want to unleash nukes on the muslim world, I want to unleash schools and free thought on the muslim world.
Ironically, Saddam Hussein was a quite moderate muslim with regards to education. He advocated university education for all Iraqis, both men and women. He never really grasped the idea of free thought though...
I guess a zealot is a zealot in any religion. You get someone sufficiently frothed up over religion and they will respond in kind; Christianity isn't immune to it, we have our bile spewing zealots too.
I do accept that Islam seems to have a higher proportion...
Falconlance wrote:
At what point is it okay to no longer be tolerant? Surely theres a limit where enough is enough? Can it be justified to be bigoted?
When 51% of muslims start believing in and demanding more 9/11 type events. Then you can unleash the nukes
I don't want to unleash nukes on the muslim world, I want to unleash schools and free thought on the muslim world.
Ironically, Saddam Hussein was a quite moderate muslim with regards to education. He advocated university education for all Iraqis, both men and women. He never really grasped the idea of free thought though...
I kind of grasped that, actually. Pity he didn't turn out a better man.
Radical Islam should have no place in this world, it is a poorly interpreted version of what is an otherwise peaceful religion.
Almost all elements of radical Islam stem from mis-interpretations of the Koran or archaic traditions which have little or no religeous foundation.
At best it is oppresive and bigoted as worst it is violent and destructive
Many devout Muslims, both radical and moderate, are quick to point out that not tolerating mockery of their faith is part of their culture, well what if taking the pi$$ out of your culture is part of mine?
Why should I have to change my views and beliefes to fit in with an alien culture which has very little that it positive to bring to my own?
I have no problem with moderate religion of any type, it has it's place in society and even though I am not religeous myself if it helps others to deal with their lives and problems then its all good with me.
It’s a good counter example as well, actually. He was a brutal dictator, but relatively moderate from a religious perspective.
Squilverine:
Exactly. Repressive jerks will inevitably focus on the repressive and reactionary parts of the religion. For example, Christians who fixate on prohibitions against homosexuality which are mostly out of Leviticus, a book infamous for its lists of archaic things which merit the death penalty (like cutting your beard, or working on a Sunday).
It's probably because I doubt anyone here is knowledgeable enough about Islam to have decent comments to put against criticisms or even to make criticisms.
That sure doesn't stop commentary on Christianity here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Falconlance wrote:
Flashman wrote:
Falconlance wrote:
At what point is it okay to no longer be tolerant? Surely theres a limit where enough is enough? Can it be justified to be bigoted?
When 51% of muslims start believing in and demanding more 9/11 type events. Then you can unleash the nukes
I don't want to unleash nukes on the muslim world, I want to unleash schools and free thought on the muslim world.
It's probably because I doubt anyone here is knowledgeable enough about Islam to have decent comments to put against criticisms or even to make criticisms.
That sure doesn't stop commentary on Christianity here.
Ever heard the phrase, "only two people read the bible, atheists and scholars."?
I tried reading the Quran, I didn't have the will to get past the first 80 pages. What I did learn though, is that translating from arabic to english causes the words to lose a lot of their strength of meaning. What translates to "struggle", as an example, is a mild way to put it.
Yeah people don't openly bag islam because they react harshly. Any group that reacts harshly and gets all serious and potentially violent gets a false smiles in public and then nasty words after.
But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.
I'm sorry, you must have been missing every time half a dozen posters including yourself spoke poorly of islam for the past year. You must also have not been watching when modern television mocked their religion and constantly berated it as violent and foolish since 2001. I can see how you would think that they get some sort of special pass when we are engaged in wars in two of their countries, recursively stop and question people of middle eastern descent because of security concerns relating to the religion, and talk about whether or not it's violent consistently in every single topic involving the religion or the region its most popular in.
Yes, I can see how you would think all these things.
Do the blinders your wearing really keep all that out that well or are you just trolling?
But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.
I'm sorry, you must have been missing every time half a dozen posters including yourself spoke poorly of islam for the past year. You must also have not been watching when modern television mocked their religion and constantly berated it as violent and foolish since 2001. I can see how you would think that they get some sort of special pass when we are engaged in wars in two of their countries, recursively stop and question people of middle eastern descent because of security concerns relating to the religion, and talk about whether or not it's violent consistently in every single topic involving the religion or the region its most popular in.
Yes, I can see how you would think all these things.
Do the blinders your wearing really keep all that out that well or are you just trolling?
Ive never seen TV mock Islam, only report on current events involving them. I was not aware that we went to war against Iraq and Afghanistan because they are muslim countries. I have never heard of a security guard telling someone he was pulled through security "because youre muslim."
Its never openly about Islam, even when it should be, and I think thats the point OP is trying to make.
A security guard stopping someone for a "random" inspection isn't because "Well, he looks Muslim!".
It's because he looks Middle-Eastern. The two may be similar, but you don't see them stopping Nigerians or Filipinos for the random security sweeps(unless the guard doing the sweep happens to be particularly knowledgeable).
And where the hell have you been Falcon? Fox News and alot of the talking heads on other networks in the days following 9/11 were talking about the "barbarity" of the Islamic religion.
This has allready been touched on, but Islamofascists are a small portion of the greater Islamic world. Most of that militantsy comes from culturally influenced interpretations of the Koran. Mostly from the middle eastern culture which is derived from primitive nomadic tribes.
The Koran itself is so open ended that just about any interpretation for Jihad can be applied, whether that be the internal struggle over the sin nature of man, or "Kill the infidels".
I know muslims that are of east Indian descent and they reject the "crazies" as "bad" Muslims.
So, I think a better outlet would be against "bad Muslims" and not greater Islam.
But Islam seems to be almost, immunised against criticism simply because when it gets criticized its adherants behave shockingly.
I'm sorry, you must have been missing every time half a dozen posters including yourself spoke poorly of islam for the past year. You must also have not been watching when modern television mocked their religion and constantly berated it as violent and foolish since 2001. I can see how you would think that they get some sort of special pass when we are engaged in wars in two of their countries, recursively stop and question people of middle eastern descent because of security concerns relating to the religion, and talk about whether or not it's violent consistently in every single topic involving the religion or the region its most popular in.
Yes, I can see how you would think all these things.
Do the blinders your wearing really keep all that out that well or are you just trolling?
Modquisition on.
I'm stepping out, other than for the occasional needed wiener dog action photo, to mod this.
Everyone will be polite, or the thread will be closed and persons suspended. Discuss the topic in a polite manner to other posters.
Shuma, you and i have had this out many times before, you know i have a general dislike for Islam as a whole, and i concede this is slightly irrational but is a response to living and working in Islamic countries and not liking what i saw. But im not trolling, im asking why Islam doesnt get criticized as much as Christianity in general.
Its not like it has a better track record.
People dispute me when i say that it, but its true. It doesnt get criticized as much, people are scared of mocking Islam, but not scared of mocking Judaism, Mormonism, Christianity, Scientology et al.
I say it is because people fear repercussions, this is denied by Muslims.
And you say.. what?
I have not heard an acceptable answer that is different from mine.
Look at the forums here, people slate Christianity, but leave Islam well enough alone, and i think this speaks volumes of the both of us.
Kanluwen wrote:Except it's not openly about Islam.
A security guard stopping someone for a "random" inspection isn't because "Well, he looks Muslim!".
It's because he looks Middle-Eastern. The two may be similar, but you don't see them stopping Nigerians or Filipinos for the random security sweeps(unless the guard doing the sweep happens to be particularly knowledgeable).
And where the hell have you been Falcon? Fox News and alot of the talking heads on other networks in the days following 9/11 were talking about the "barbarity" of the Islamic religion.
I will admit, I don't watch a lot of TV, least of all fox.
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that most westeners haven't been exposed that much to Islam, Matty. It may be as simple as, they don't know enough about it. Yet everyone knows the ins and outs of our own culture, therfore it is much easier to poke fun at ourselves.
Well gg at least gave a decent answer, ill concede that might be true, for example, i slate my own home town, but take issue when someone else from elsewhere does it.
Because there is NO REAL BASIS FOR CRITICIZING THE ENTIRE RELIGION BASED ON A FEW WHACKJOBS.
How is this difficult to understand?
It's common knowledge, Matt, that the "Islam" practiced by Al Qaeda and its followers is not Islam. It's a perversion of the religion, completely twisted to their own ends to justify wholesale slaughter and imposing their own will on a world that doesn't want any of what they're selling.
It's very different when you're discussing things like the Catholic Church's continual slating of homosexuality as a sin, the cover-up by said church of pedophilic and homosexual relations between the clergy and the children they're supposed to be tending the faith to or what whacky story the Scientologists have come up with to bilk you out of your money this time.
Ive never seen TV mock Islam, only report on current events involving them. I was not aware that we went to war against Iraq and Afghanistan because they are muslim countries. I have never heard of a security guard telling someone he was pulled through security "because youre muslim."
Its never openly about Islam, even when it should be, and I think thats the point OP is trying to make.
Clearly you haven't listened to rush/o'rielly/beck/hannity/numerous other talking heads between 2001 and now, bush is on record as are (some) generals stating (incorrectly) that the wars do have religious ideological underpinnings, and you definitely haven't seen someone screened because of their religion but you certainly have because of the color of their skin. They aren't being screened because brown people explode for no reason, they are being screened because of religious ideological extremism from the regions that people of those colors hail from.
Everyone will be polite, or the thread will be closed and persons suspended. Discuss the topic in a polite manner to other posters.
The concept of this thread isn't particularly polite in the first place.
Yeah people don't openly bag islam because they react harshly. Any group that reacts harshly and gets all serious and potentially violent gets a false smiles in public and then nasty words after.
Shaman has earned a bonus point... and so did frazz
Ive never seen TV mock Islam, only report on current events involving them. I was not aware that we went to war against Iraq and Afghanistan because they are muslim countries. I have never heard of a security guard telling someone he was pulled through security "because youre muslim."
Its never openly about Islam, even when it should be, and I think thats the point OP is trying to make.
Clearly you haven't listened to rush/o'rielly/beck/hannity/numerous other talking heads between 2001 and now, bush is on record as are (some) generals stating (incorrectly) that the wars do have religious ideological underpinnings, and you definitely haven't seen someone screened because of their religion but you certainly have because of the color of their skin. They aren't being screened because brown people explode for no reason, they are being screened because of religious ideological extremism from the regions that people of those colors hail from.
Actually, I take that back, now that you mention it, I do remember, the summer of 2002, I had a summer job in between 10th and 11th grade.. One of the welders I worked with was listening to Rush on the radio, and he was discussing how people, in particular college age kids, were defending Islamic society, putting them on an equal level with our own. At which point he brought up the treatment of women, female circumcision, being disowned and beaten for daring to dishonor their families by getting raped, etc.
I try not to listen to pundits, theyre all full of gak.
mattyrm wrote:So, what does dakka think the future holds? More wars? What is a likely solution?
As you have pointed out there is an incredible double standard when considering criticism of other world religions and Islam. I can draw no other conclusion than that it is a direct result to the violent and threatening reaction to such criticism. While you do have the occasional abortion doctor shot by a radical Christian, you don't see YouTube videos of heads being sawed off or hear of horrific stabbings in broad daylight like you do from the Islamic side of the street.
Despite apologists to the contrary, there is really only one future for the world and Islam. They want to conquer the world. No really, not in the figurative "I'm going to convince everyone that Islam is best" kind of conquering. The literal kind. A major school of Islam teaches they will dominate the world and others will either convert or be subject to the Muslim. The whole point of dhimmitude is to show submission.
The real answer to the question of what the future holds and what the solution is lies solely in the hands of the mainstream Muslim. If they can get control of their religion and keep it peaceful then they can usher in a new era of world peace and cooperation. If they let radicals continue to steer their faith down a violent path then the future hold another great war. Probably involving nukes. It's that simple.
Matty makes a point. Atheists and liberals around the world poke fun at Christianity and mock it because of a few wack jobs and yet people defend Islam because "not all Muslims are wack jobs."
The simple truth is that as far as the two (Christianity and Islam) are concerned one gets attacked more than the other, even though both should be equally attacked because both have it's share of nut jobs.
Of course we don't dare attack Islam and Muslims because that's considered profiling and stereotyping and heaven forbid we piss off a few middle-easterners. :rolleyes:
mattyrm wrote:So, what does dakka think the future holds? More wars? What is a likely solution?
As you have pointed out there is an incredible double standard when considering criticism of other world religions and Islam. I can draw no other conclusion than that it is a direct result to the violent and threatening reaction to such criticism. While you do have the occasional abortion doctor shot by a radical Christian, you don't see YouTube videos of heads being sawed off or hear of horrific stabbings in broad daylight like you do from the Islamic side of the street.
Despite apologists to the contrary, there is really only one future for the world and Islam. They want to conquer the world. No really, not in the figurative "I'm going to convince everyone that Islam is best" kind of conquering. The literal kind. A major school of Islam teaches they will dominate the world and others will either convert or be subject to the Muslim. The whole point of dhimmitude is to show submission.
The real answer to the question of what the future holds and what the solution is lies solely in the hands of the mainstream Muslim. If they can get control of their religion and keep it peaceful then they can usher in a new era of world peace and cooperation. If they let radicals continue to steer their faith down a violent path then the future hold another great war. Probably involving nukes. It's that simple.
That's heretical talk Git. There are no Islamic training camps in the US, there are no suicide bombers that do it in the name of Islam. After all, the official report doesn't mention them. Everything you have been told is a lie. Every Muslim in the world wants to integrate with the US and live amongst us in harmony. No, our President is not a closet Muslim either. Stop with the heresy Git, the men in black will show up at your door otherwise.
As you have pointed out there is an incredible double standard when considering criticism of other world religions and Islam. I can draw no other conclusion than that it is a direct result to the violent and threatening reaction to such criticism. While you do have the occasional abortion doctor shot by a radical Christian, you don't see YouTube videos of heads being sawed off or hear of horrific stabbings in broad daylight like you do from the Islamic side of the street.
Don't pay much attention to africa do you? In Uganda a set of laws that would make gay sex a capitol offense and which are highly supported by the government are working their way into being. But then if you can't see the constant day in and day out criticism of islam that occurs especially in America than I doubt you can see much of anything in reality.
Despite apologists to the contrary, there is really only one future for the world and Islam. They want to conquer the world. No really, not in the figurative "I'm going to convince everyone that Islam is best" kind of conquering. The literal kind. A major school of Islam teaches they will dominate the world and others will either convert or be subject to the Muslim. The whole point of dhimmitude is to show submission.
Realistically there are direct parallels to christianity with these practices.
The real answer to the question of what the future holds and what the solution is lies solely in the hands of the mainstream Muslim. If they can get control of their religion and keep it peaceful then they can usher in a new era of world peace and cooperation. If they let radicals continue to steer their faith down a violent path then the future hold another great war. Probably involving nukes. It's that simple.
The religion hasn't really been steered anywhere. You can't steer religions via minority extremism, all you can do is steer public perception of that religion. Something you seem to have fallen under.
That's heretical talk Git. There are no Islamic training camps in the US, there are no suicide bombers that do it in the name of Islam. After all, the official report doesn't mention them. Everything you have been told is a lie. Every Muslim in the world wants to integrate with the US and live amongst us in harmony. No, our President is not a closet Muslim either. Stop with the heresy Git, the men in black will show up at your door otherwise.
Why do you make up arguments and then argue against them? No one said that. You're making yourself look foolish.
Ahtman wrote:Matty and Fateweaver: Confirmation Bias exhibits A and B.
We are biased because we see the hypocrisy in the situation? Bias is defending Muslims and their religion even with it's nut jobs and yet at the same time slamming Christianity for it's nut jobs.
Fateweaver wrote:Matty makes a point. Atheists and liberals around the world poke fun at Christianity and mock it because of a few wack jobs and yet people defend Islam because "not all Muslims are wack jobs."
The simple truth is that as far as the two (Christianity and Islam) are concerned one gets attacked more than the other, even though both should be equally attacked because both have it's share of nut jobs.
Of course we don't dare attack Islam and Muslims because that's considered profiling and stereotyping and heaven forbid we piss off a few middle-easterners. :rolleyes:
You should probably watch out how you roll those eyes, I think you've GONE BLIND IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE CONSTANT BERATEMENT OF THE ISLAMIC RELIGION THAT HAS OCCURRED FOR A DECADE. You should get that gak checked yo.
Islam has been negatively depicted and criticized as much as other religions. Durka Durka.
May not seem that way since most of us are Westerners living in predominately Christian societies and if you already don't like religion then you have a much closer issue to deal with...well actually I think an ethnocentric view helps when it comes to "hating on Islam" since most Westerners probably think veils and their fundamentalist views go against how things "should be".
You get in trouble when you start generalizing things since not ALL cops are pigs and not all lawyers are scumbugs...well maybe the latter is true
Ahtman wrote:Matty and Fateweaver: Confirmation Bias exhibits A and B.
We are biased because we see the hypocrisy in the situation? Bias is defending Muslims and their religion even with it's nut jobs and yet at the same time slamming Christianity for it's nut jobs.
Confirmation bias (or myside bias[1]) is a tendency for people to prefer information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses, independently of whether they are true.[2][3] People can reinforce their existing attitudes by selectively collecting new evidence, by interpreting evidence in a biased way or by selectively recalling information from memory.[4] Some psychologists use "confirmation bias" for any of these three cognitive biases, while others restrict the term to selective collection of evidence, using assimilation bias for biased interpretation.[5][2]
Actually you're biased because you're wrong but don't care about reality or the facts. You have an opinion and you'll ignore reality and latch onto anything that can make it seem even ephemerally true. Thats what a confirmation bias is. The thing you didn't bother to look up, and didn't know. The thing that you then constructed a false argument against to make yourself somehow seem correct.
The hypocrisy Shuma, like Matty pointed out, is that the ones who attack Christianity, in OUR experience, are the ones who defend Islam.
I have humanitarian and liberal friends who are constantly belittling Christianity but whenever I mention how bad Islam is because of those who would take it to the extreme call me a bigot and close-minded and that I "don't understand".
It boils down to fear of pissing off people in countries who's ass our country is trying to kiss. In all the years South Park has been on the air not ONE episode has been edited or cancelled because of Christ being portrayed as he is and I'm willing to bet Trey and Matt have been threatened (maybe not with physical violence but with lawsuits). Has it changed how they portray Christ? Nope. Yet they get threatened, in a roundabout way, by Islamic extremists and what does CC do? "Oh noes, the sky is falling. Some nut jobs on the internet threatened two of our networks writers so we must edit the show."
How do you not see the hypocritical double-standard? Pissing off millions of Christians (actually 10's of millions) is okay but pissing off a few thousand Islamic extremists from www.nut-jobs.com is forbidden?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Fateweaver wrote:
Ahtman wrote:Matty and Fateweaver: Confirmation Bias exhibits A and B.
We are biased because we see the hypocrisy in the situation? Bias is defending Muslims and their religion even with it's nut jobs and yet at the same time slamming Christianity for it's nut jobs.
Confirmation bias (or myside bias[1]) is a tendency for people to prefer information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses, independently of whether they are true.[2][3] People can reinforce their existing attitudes by selectively collecting new evidence, by interpreting evidence in a biased way or by selectively recalling information from memory.[4] Some psychologists use "confirmation bias" for any of these three cognitive biases, while others restrict the term to selective collection of evidence, using assimilation bias for biased interpretation.[5][2]
Actually you're biased because you're wrong but don't care about reality or the facts. You have an opinion and you'll ignore reality and latch onto anything that can make it seem even ephemerally true. Thats what a confirmation bias is. The thing you didn't bother to look up, and didn't know. The thing that you then constructed a false argument against to make yourself somehow seem correct.
Like how people slamming on Christianity are conformationally biased. I mean, they only look at information that confirms their preconceptions of Christianity. Right?
I don't know about the rest of the world, but where I live, there's a huge amount of racism for people from the middle-east and more specifically, Musliums. And wasn't the website giving a warning to the writers of South Park, not a threat?
Nice Muslims don't make good news coverage. *Rolls eyes*
Fateweaver wrote:I have humanitarian and liberal friends who are constantly belittling Christianity but whenever I mention how bad Islam is because of those who would take it to the extreme call me a bigot and close-minded and that I "don't understand".
Humanitarian or Humanist?
The humanist friends should dissaprove of Islam as well as Christianity.
The hypocrisy Shuma, like Matty pointed out, is that the ones who attack Christianity, in OUR experience, are the ones who defend Islam.
I don't think anyone cares about your experience here. It's irrelevant.
I have humanitarian and liberal friends who are constantly belittling Christianity but whenever I mention how bad Islam is because of those who would take it to the extreme call me a bigot and close-minded and that I "don't understand".
Cool.
It boils down to fear of pissing off people in countries who's ass our country is trying to kiss. In all the years South Park has been on the air not ONE episode has been edited or cancelled because of Christ being portrayed as he is and I'm willing to bet Trey and Matt have been threatened (maybe not with physical violence but with lawsuits).
Irrelevant.
Has it changed how they portray Christ? Nope. Yet they get threatened, in a roundabout way, by Islamic extremists and what does CC do? "Oh noes, the sky is falling. Some nut jobs on the internet threatened two of our networks writers so we must edit the show."
Yeah, family guy did it too. The point is still irrelevant.
How do you not see the hypocritical double-standard? Pissing off millions of Christians (actually 10's of millions) is okay but pissing off a few thousand Islamic extremists from www.nut-jobs.com is forbidden?
Well we aren't actively trying to stem resurgent christian militant extremism. Comedy central was attempting to avoid international issues similar to those of the danish cartoon issues and it clearly took the threat as legitimate as it pulled the episode. Comedy central is a television channel, not the fething u.s. government, it determines it's own course of action in regards to when some of it's top writers receive death threats. It's not a double standard because there is no standard. You just take offense to the fact that it's not fair in your mind. Well guess what, it doesn't matter in the slightest. Currently militant islam is the issue of the day, not militant christianity. So thats what we fething deal with. Your friends double standard isn't my or anyone elses problem, and no one cares.
Not to slap on any organised religion. (even though I think they're all stupid) However, here's a nice little tidbit for you.
Working here in the jail, there are lots of guys who "find" religion. Now this is for obvious reasons that we wont bother with.
Most of the calmer/nicer inmates seem to gravitate toward christianity, reading the bible and holding prayer time in the block.
There are an equal amount of Inmates finding religion in the Kouran.
Most of these guys, almost without exception are the most hateful, authority chafing, and haterz of "the man" there are. BTW, I've not met nor searched a single inmate who was over say...35...with a Kouran bible in his property. Its always the young punks, gangers or prime A-holes.
Yea, I'm sure this religion is on the up-and-up and not any more hateful than others.
Wake up.
BTW the Kouran teaches to kill the jew, and cut off the head of the infidel...sounds like a peaceful religion to me.
Like how people slamming on Christianity are conformationally biased. I mean, they only look at information that confirms their preconceptions of Christianity. Right?
You do realize that by selectively choosing arguments to argue against, and then constructing fake arguments that no one ever made around those statements you're actually actively engaged in selective confirmation bias. You're just proving the point made about you.
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Deadshane1 wrote:Not to slap on any organised religion. (even though I think they're all stupid) However, here's a nice little tidbit for you.
Working here in the jail, there are lots of guys who "find" religion. Now this is for obvious reasons that we wont bother with.
Most of the calmer/nicer inmates seem to gravitate toward christianity, reading the bible and holding prayer time in the block.
There are an equal amount of Inmates finding religion in the Kouran.
Most of these guys, almost without exception are the most hateful, authority chafing, and haterz of "the man" there are. BTW, I've not met nor searched a single inmate who was over say...35...with a Kouran bible in his property. Its always the young punks, gangers or prime A-holes.
Yea, I'm sure this religion is on the up-and-up and not any more hateful than others.
Wake up.
Yeah, I'm sure prison inmates are an AMAZING sample by which to draw your opinions here.
ShumaGorath wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure prison inmates are an AMAZING sample by which to draw your opinions here.
Well then shuma, you explain to ME why model and older inmates are the ones that gravitate toward christianity and the more violent or authority chafing ones go to the Kouran.
Its a group of people, I dont see why an example cannot be seen here of the sort of people that either religion attracts. Doubly so due to the frequency that incarcerated persons go to find comfort in religion.
I think it serves as an example to determine the sort of person attracted to either religion.
Prison inmates are more of the "real world example" than happy go lucky, middle class douche bags who are getting their way paid for in life.
Prisoners have a lot less media and tv influence than those of us not part of the prison system. I'm willing to bet prisoners are more capable of making their own decisions than Bunny or Sean, the spoiled UC Berkeley grads.
Well then shuma, you explain to ME why model and older inmates are the ones that gravitate toward christianity and the more violent or authority chafing ones go to the Kouran.
Modern social acceptance of americas founding religion vs the adoption of a religion that has had militant underpinnings politically in the prison and gang systems since malcom x's time? You're blaming a religion for a societal issue, Islam was proselytized to the more militant african american population for decades and it still has strong ties within areas of minority black criminal uptake. Due to the history of the civil rights struggle and the ensuing issues it has a history of identification with rebellious youthful identities in black (And modernly eastern) culture.
Id say a prison an amazing place to draw conclusions on which religion violent criminals gravitate towards.
Not particularly. It's heavily dependent on the prison population. I would imagine that prisons with high percentages of latin american criminals would gravitate towards christianity. It's actually just a bad place to draw this kind of conclusion at all, since it's intrinsically linked to the inmates themselves.
Deadshane1 wrote:Not to slap on any organised religion. (even though I think they're all stupid) However, here's a nice little tidbit for you.
Working here in the jail, there are lots of guys who "find" religion. Now this is for obvious reasons that we wont bother with.
Most of the calmer/nicer inmates seem to gravitate toward christianity, reading the bible and holding prayer time in the block.
There are an equal amount of Inmates finding religion in the Kouran.
Most of these guys, almost without exception are the most hateful, authority chafing, and haterz of "the man" there are. BTW, I've not met nor searched a single inmate who was over say...35...with a Kouran bible in his property. Its always the young punks, gangers or prime A-holes.
Yea, I'm sure this religion is on the up-and-up and not any more hateful than others.
Wake up.
Yeah, I'm sure prison inmates are an AMAZING sample by which to draw your opinions here.
This thread is not going to be a bastion of logic Shuma... You are certainly aware of that.
Useless anecdotal information, simply used to reinforce ideas that are flamed on by the mainstream media (the one that has been feeding this abstract nonsense for years now), doesn't amount to jack-gak. A prison guard who doesn't like inmates, and dislikes the more violent ones even more?
Aye calm down lads, no need to get so heated, neither of you blokes are muslims are you?
Thats all my point is, im obviously not saying all or even most muslims are bad people, im saying that to me it seems like the religion is not criticized as much as others, speicifically Chrsitianity, and when i say it is down to fear, people dispute it, but what else would it be?
It seems that people know they can mock Christianity safely, but not Islam, and that speaks volumes for said Religion and leads me to claim that one Religion is less barbed than the other. I have disdain for all mono theisms, but at least the X-tians can take a question civily.
I guess another question would be, why the hell cant Islam take a joke, when Christianity can?
Cane wrote:Islam has been negatively depicted and criticized as much as other religions. Durka Durka.
Yes, but other religions don't go around sawing off heads, murdering artists on their front porches and declaring jihad on Salman Rushdie.
The point is not that Islam doesn't get criticized... it's how Islam responds when it does.
This post has been edited. Further attacks on another poster will result in displinary meaures.
Prison inmates are more of the "real world example" than happy go lucky, middle class douche bags who are getting their way paid for in life.
Prisoners have a lot less media and tv influence than those of us not part of the prison system. I'm willing to bet prisoners are more capable of making their own decisions than Bunny or Sean, the spoiled UC Berkeley grads.
Yes, decisions like the ones that landed them in prison. You know, where they aren't allowed to make decisions about when to go to bed or when to eat. Are you high?
mattyrm wrote:Aye calm down lads, no need to get so heated, neither of you blokes are muslims are you?
Thats all my point is, im obviously not saying all or even most muslims are bad people, im saying that to me it seems like the religion is not criticized as much as others, speicifically Chrsitianity, and when i say it is down to fear, people dispute it, but what else would it be?
It seems that people know they can mock Christianity safely, but not Islam, and that speaks volumes for said Religion and leads me to claim that one Religion is less barbed than the other. I have disdain for all mono theisms, but at least the X-tians can take a question civily.
I guess another question would be, why the hell cant Islam take a joke, when Christianity can?
I don't know...
Why don't you ask Islam, like the individual person you set it up to be? Why not follow what CNN, FOXnews, etc... tells you? You are simply ignoring the fact that violence stems from all religions, because there are PEOPLE in them. Some of those people happen to be crazy, but all religions have a few handfuls of these crazies. Ignoring that the MM is focusing on Islam, simply promotes a reliance on the MM, to make your decisions for you.
Deadshane1 wrote:"When can we acceptably start getting angry at Islam?"
I'd say (since I must be an infidel) it was about the time that the Kouran suggested it was ok to cut my friggin' head off.
See, I rather prefer my head attached to my body.
I.E. Screw that barbaric religion....in the goat butt.
Where the feth does it say in the Koran that it's acceptable in everyday life to cut someone's head off?
Oh right. It doesn't.
As for why Christianity gets bashed more than Islam?
Your mainstream Muslims aren't protesting gay marriages, firebombing/shooting up churches of their own faith but with a different color skin of the members, the religious leaders aren't officially covering up sexual abuse of small children by the priesthood(and in some cases, actively blocking law enforcement from prosecuting such cases), or having a faction that believes that doctors performing legitimate medical procedures(crazy huh? Abortions are legit procedures, and in some cases--completely necessary or acceptable by mainstream society) being murdered is okay.
Well, if people are pissing in their Cheerios they brought it upon themselves. The larger terrorists groups control the country and/or the countries military. They have the power to change it.
It's not the 12yo child blowing up cars because his home life sucks. It's the militant government organizations that are blowing gak up. Their country is gakky because they'd rather blame the world for their misgivings than fix their own damn problem, which they have the power to do.
mattyrm wrote:Aye calm down lads, no need to get so heated, neither of you blokes are muslims are you?
Thats all my point is, im obviously not saying all or even most muslims are bad people, im saying that to me it seems like the religion is not criticized as much as others, speicifically Chrsitianity, and when i say it is down to fear, people dispute it, but what else would it be?
It seems that people know they can mock Christianity safely, but not Islam, and that speaks volumes for said Religion and leads me to claim that one Religion is less barbed than the other. I have disdain for all mono theisms, but at least the X-tians can take a question civily.
I guess another question would be, why the hell cant Islam take a joke, when Christianity can?
I think you're just really bad at drawing logical conclusions. Christianity and Islam are both dogs. Christianity has spent its whole life getting pet, living in posh places, sleeping on nice pillows, and eating the expensive food. Islam lives outside, it gets beaten constantly, it has to fight for the food it gets, and and the junkyard it lives in is pretty cold. I wonder which dog is more likely to bite?
You're looking at the people for the religion and not the religion for the people. Islam is majority found in gakky countries, with poor governments and poor economies. Christianity is not. They're both just books that say almost the exact same gak. One book is popular in a nice part of the world, the other is popular in a not so nice part. Draw conclusions from there, don't just fabricate some sort of myth about an evil religion. Religions are just groups of people.
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Fateweaver wrote:Well, if people are pissing in their Cheerios they brought it upon themselves. The larger terrorists groups control the country and/or the countries military. They have the power to change it.
It's not the 12yo child blowing up cars because his home life sucks. It's the militant government organizations that are blowing gak up. Their country is gakky because they'd rather blame the world for their misgivings than fix their own damn problem, which they have the power to do.
You do realize that afghanistan is a tiny fraction of the total muslim population? Wait. No you don't. Selective bias.
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Deadshane1 wrote:Strife ridden third world....
American prison system....
Sounds pretty close to the same type of people to me. Maybe you'd invite these people to your pool party...I wouldnt.
If those sound like the same people than I think we're done here. You clearly aren't worth attempting to hash this out with.
I'm done here. This threads just a whining ground for the incredibly ignorant so that they can talk about how christianity is somehow getting the short end of the stick in america (YOU KNOW WHY YOU SEE MORE PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT CHRISTIANS? BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN AMERICA AND EUROPE ARE CHRISTIAN).
Deadshane1 wrote:"When can we acceptably start getting angry at Islam?"
I'd say (since I must be an infidel) it was about the time that the Kouran suggested it was ok to cut my friggin' head off.
See, I rather prefer my head attached to my body.
I.E. Screw that barbaric religion....in the goat butt.
Where the feth does it say in the Koran that it's acceptable in everyday life to cut someone's head off?
Oh right. It doesn't.
As for why Christianity gets bashed more than Islam?
Your mainstream Muslims aren't protesting gay marriages, firebombing/shooting up churches of their own faith but with a different color skin of the members, the religious leaders aren't officially covering up sexual abuse of small children by the priesthood(and in some cases, actively blocking law enforcement from prosecuting such cases), or having a faction that believes that doctors performing legitimate medical procedures(crazy huh? Abortions are legit procedures, and in some cases--completely necessary or acceptable by mainstream society) being murdered is okay.
Hmm. So it's still okay to slam Christianity because a few dozen doctors are killed each year for doing abortions and that Christians protest gay marriage peacefully but Islam should be left alone because apparently 9/11 and the near disaster that was the pants bomber, the shoe bomber and now the failed Times Square bomb are somehow "less" significant?
I hope you aren't implying that but that is the tone I'm getting from you. That it's okay to slam Christians because they hate gays but we have no room to slam Islamists even though they apparently hate the West.
Golden rule of islam is, " If you deliver infidels to Allah, Allah will deliver houries to you".
Thus the only pillar of islam is killing and delivering infidels to Allah or in other words, carrying out violent Jihad against all infidel unless they submit to Islam. That is what our prophet Mo preached and practiced and that is what our greatest scholars preached.
Greatest muslim scholars of recent times were Syed Qutub, Dr. Salah Serea and Mohammed Abed Al-Salem. They all preached Violent Jihad and the golden rule of islam.
"Demolish all governments and organizations that are established by man. The return of Allah's kingdom can only be established with a sword. Absolute rebellion is a must against anything on earth that conflicts with islam and to destroy it with great power".
9.38: Believers, What is the matter with you, when you are asked to go forth and fight for Allah's cause you cling to the earth? Unless you fight, Allah will punish you with a painful doom
mattyrm wrote:Aye calm down lads, no need to get so heated, neither of you blokes are muslims are you?
Thats all my point is, im obviously not saying all or even most muslims are bad people, im saying that to me it seems like the religion is not criticized as much as others, speicifically Chrsitianity, and when i say it is down to fear, people dispute it, but what else would it be?
It seems that people know they can mock Christianity safely, but not Islam, and that speaks volumes for said Religion and leads me to claim that one Religion is less barbed than the other. I have disdain for all mono theisms, but at least the X-tians can take a question civily.
I guess another question would be, why the hell cant Islam take a joke, when Christianity can?
I think you're just really bad at drawing logical conclusions. Christianity and Islam are both dogs. Christianity has spent its whole life getting pet, living in posh places, sleeping on nice pillows, and eating the expensive food. Islam lives outside, it gets beaten constantly, it has to fight for the food it gets, and and the junkyard it lives in is pretty cold. I wonder which dog is more likely to bite?
You're looking at the people for the religion and not the religion for the people. Islam is majority found in gakky countries, with poor governments and poor economies. Christianity is not. They're both just books that say almost the exact same gak. One book is popular in a nice part of the world, the other is popular in a not so nice part. Draw conclusions from there, don't just fabricate some sort of myth about an evil religion. Religions are just groups of people.
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Fateweaver wrote:Well, if people are pissing in their Cheerios they brought it upon themselves. The larger terrorists groups control the country and/or the countries military. They have the power to change it.
It's not the 12yo child blowing up cars because his home life sucks. It's the militant government organizations that are blowing gak up. Their country is gakky because they'd rather blame the world for their misgivings than fix their own damn problem, which they have the power to do.
You do realize that afghanistan is a tiny fraction of the total muslim population? Wait. No you don't. Selective bias.
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Deadshane1 wrote:Strife ridden third world....
American prison system....
Sounds pretty close to the same type of people to me. Maybe you'd invite these people to your pool party...I wouldnt.
If those sound like the same people than I think we're done here. You clearly aren't worth attempting to hash this out with.
I'm done here. This threads just a whining ground for the incredibly ignorant so that they can talk about how christianity is somehow getting the short end of the stick in america (YOU KNOW WHY YOU SEE MORE PEOPLE COMPLAIN ABOUT CHRISTIANS? BECAUSE THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN AMERICA AND EUROPE ARE CHRISTIAN).
It's selectively biased to believe all Christians are hate-mongers.
Shuma wrote:I think you're just really bad at drawing logical conclusions. Christianity and Islam are both dogs. Christianity has spent its whole life getting pet, living in posh places, sleeping on nice pillows, and eating the expensive food. Islam lives outside, it gets beaten constantly, it has to fight for the food it gets, and and the junkyard it lives in is pretty cold. I wonder which dog is more likely to bite?
You're looking at the people for the religion and not the religion for the people. Islam is majority found in gakky countries, with poor governments and poor economies. Christianity is not. They're both just books that say almost the exact same gak. One book is popular in a nice part of the world, the other is popular in a not so nice part. Draw conclusions from there, don't just fabricate some sort of myth about an evil religion. Religions are just groups of people.
This series is not specifically about Islam, as it actually provides a basis for it's accusations, and does not target anyone but those involved.
It is well worth watching, and I don't assume that it has every fact right, just that it really studies a big part of the problem we are currently discussing.
Again though, this thread is not going to be a monument to logic... Watch the doco though, it's worth it, and it has a lot to do with what we are discussing.
Not pointed at Shuma BTW, but the thread in it's entirety.
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." There is a good case to be made that the textual context of this particular passage is defensive war, even if the historical context was not. However, there are also two worrisome pieces to these verse. The first is that the killing of others is authorized in the event of "persecution" (a qualification that is ambiguous at best). The second is that fighting may persist until "religion is for Allah." The example set by Muhammad is not reassuring.
Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Qur'an (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not." Not only does this verse establish that violence can be virtuous, but it also contradicts the myth that fighting is intended only in self-defense, since the audience was obviously not under attack at the time. From the Hadith, we know that Muhammad was actually trying to motivate his people into raiding caravans with this verse.
Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of polytheists, yet it also includes Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').
Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." The martyrs of Islam are unlike the early Christians, led meekly to the slaughter. These Muslims are killed in battle, as they attempt to inflict death and destruction for the cause of Allah. Here is the theological basis for today's suicide bombers.
Qur'an (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"
Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-" This passage not only criticizes "peaceful" Muslims who do not join in the violence, but it also demolishes the modern myth that "Jihad" doesn't mean holy war in the Qur'an, but rather a spiritual struggle. Not only is the Arabic word used in this passage, but it is clearly not referring to anything spiritual, since the physically disabled are given exemption. (The Hadith reveals the context of the passage to be in response to a blind man's protest that he is unable to engage in Jihad).
Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..." Is pursuing an injured and retreating enemy really an act of self-defense?
Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" No reasonable person would interpret this to mean a spiritual struggle.
Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah" From the historical context we know that the "persecution" spoken of here was simply the refusal by the Meccans to allow Muhammad to enter their city and perform the Haj. Other Muslims were able to travel there, just not as an armed group, since Muhammad declared war on Mecca prior to his eviction. The Meccans were also acting in defense of their religion, since it was Muhammad's intention to destroy their idols and establish Islam by force (which he later did). Hence the critical part of this verse is to fight until "religion is only for Allah."
Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."
Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them." According to this verse, the best way of staying safe from Muslim violence is to convert to Islam. Prayer (salat) and the poor tax (zakat) are among the religions Five Pillars.
Qur'an (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."
Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant." The "striving" spoken of here is Jihad.
Qur'an (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." "People of the Book" refers to Christians and Jews. This was one of the final "revelations" from Allah and it set in motion the tenacious military expansion, in which Muhammad's companions managed to conquer two-thirds of the Christian world in just the next 100 years. Islam is intended to dominate all other people and faiths.
Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place." This is a warning to those who refuse to fight, that they will be punished with Hell.
Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew." See also the verse that follows (9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them" This contradicts the myth that Muslims are to fight only in self-defense, since the wording implies that battle will be waged a long distance from home (in another country and on Christian soil, in this case, according to the historians).
Qur'an (9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination." Dehumanizing those who reject Islam, by reminding Muslims that they are merely firewood for Hell, makes it easier to justify slaughter. It also explains why today's devout Muslims have little regard for those outside the faith.
Qur'an (9:88) - "But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper."
Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."
Qur'an (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."
Qur'an (21:44) - "We gave the good things of this life to these men and their fathers until the period grew long for them; See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? Is it then they who will win?"
Qur'an (25:52) - "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the (Qur'an)." "Strive against" is Jihad - obviously not in the personal context. It's also significant to point out that this is a Meccan verse.
Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"
Qur'an (47:35) - "Be not weary and faint-hearted, crying for peace, when ye should be uppermost (Shakir: "have the upper hand") for Allah is with you,"
Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom." Contemporary apologists sometimes claim that Jihad means 'spiritual struggle.' Is so, then why are the blind, lame and sick exempted?
Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves" Islam is not about treating everyone equally. There are two very distinct standards that are applied based on religious status.
Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way" Religion of Peace, indeed!
Qur'an (61:10-12) - "O ye who believe! Shall I lead you to a bargain that will save you from a grievous Penalty?- That ye believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that ye strive (your utmost) in the Cause of Allah, with your property and your persons: That will be best for you, if ye but knew! He will forgive you your sins, and admit you to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, and to beautiful mansions in Gardens of Eternity." This verse was given in battle. It uses the Arabic word, Jihad.
Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end." The root word of "Jihad" is used again here. The context is clearly holy war, and the scope of violence is broadened to include "hypocrites" - those who call themselves Muslims but do not act as such.
From the Hadith:
Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
Bukhari (52:256) - The Prophet... was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." In this command, Muhammad establishes that it is permissible to kill non-combatants in the process of killing a perceived enemy. This provides justification for the many Islamic terror bombings.
Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'
Abu Dawud (14:2526) - The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Three things are the roots of faith: to refrain from (killing) a person who utters, "There is no god but Allah" and not to declare him unbeliever whatever sin he commits, and not to excommunicate him from Islam for his any action; and jihad will be performed continuously since the day Allah sent me as a prophet until the day the last member of my community will fight with the Dajjal (Antichrist)
Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious
Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah
Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah
Muslim (1:149) - "Abu Dharr reported: I said: Messenger of Allah, which of the deeds is the best? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: Belief in Allah and Jihad in His cause..."
Muslim (20:4645) - "...He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa'id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!"
Muslim (20:4696) - "the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: 'One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'"
Muslim (19:4321-4323) - Three separate hadith in which Muhammad shrugs over the news that innocent children were killed in a raid by his men against unbelievers. His response: "They are of them (meaning the enemy)."
Tabari 7:97 The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power." Ashraf was a poet, killed by Muhammad's men because he insulted Islam. Here, Muhammad widens the scope of his orders to kill. An innocent Jewish businessman was then slain by his Muslim partner, merely for being non-Muslim.
Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”
Ibn Ishaq: 990 - Lest anyone think that cutting off someone's head while screaming 'Allah Akbar!' is a modern custom, here is an account of that very practice under Muhammad, who seems to approve.
Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah." Muhammad's instructions to his men prior to a military raid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Who was it that suggested that the Quran doesnt advocate the slayings of Infidels?
It's selectively biased to believe all Christians are hate-mongers.
Your point being?
Confirmation bias (or myside bias[1]) is a tendency for people to prefer information that confirms their preconceptions or hypotheses, independently of whether they are true.[2][3] People can reinforce their existing attitudes by selectively collecting new evidence, by interpreting evidence in a biased way or by selectively recalling information from memory.[4] Some psychologists use "confirmation bias" for any of these three cognitive biases, while others restrict the term to selective collection of evidence, using assimilation bias for biased interpretation.[5][2]
Are you seriously doing this gak on purpose? Or do you really not realize that you're doing it?
And Fate:
Peaceful protests against gay marriage? Hahahahahaha. Sorry there sweetheart, but when the idea of a "peaceful" protest is carrying signs saying "FAGS BURN IN HELL" or "YOU'RE WHY GOD HATES AMERICA" is no fething way peaceful.
Also, Deadshane?
Christianity is not one to be casting stones about stupid people and their statements.
Or hey, how about Haiti just asking for that earthquake or New Orleans offending God?
Fateweaver wrote:Apparently "do unto others as they would do unto you" somehow equates to "kill the infidels and all those who would disbelieve in Allah".
mattyrm wrote:
Now, im tired of people making excuses for Islam.
Me too, but let us not dig at Islam, that would be very unfair. Dig at violent Islamic Fundamentalists, and only those who preach violence.
mattyrm wrote:
We slate Mormons, Scientologists, Christianity et all in hearty doses, the Catholic church certainly gets an enormous amount of flak, Madonna gets up on stage and depicts herself in some sort of obscene crucifiction skit for example, but nobody gets killed.
its a matter of power projection. It all comes down to how and if the religious community being lampooned responds. Some pointers:
South Park is very irreverent and its creators do not care about that. They mock Jesus directly with impunity. This is not on. While mocking a faith is one thing, mocking a religious icon is not. Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Allah etc should all be off limits preisnts and followers and the odd thngs we/they do are fair.
They also mocked Scientiology, but not with impunity. Scientologists did not take this lying down, they seldom do, and while attacking South Park cost them a lot of their rapidly dwindling credibility it was at least partly successful.
Taking on Islam is in fact rather dumb, because they will not back down, but they are not alone. Taking on Judiasm is even worse mistake, because you will very quickly and successfully get labelled anti-semitic and all sorts of gak can rain down.
Christians will largely grin and bear it, in fact it helps when they do not as those who don't are usually laughably bad at complaining, as will most Buddhists though I rarely see anything anti-buddhist in the western media. Hindus, Jews and Moslems can get very shirty though the Jews tend to react to insult in round about ways. For examples of that look at the Jewish reactions to Mel Gibsons film The Passion of the Christ. that was attacked with money lawyers and delays and 'bumps within Hollywood. Four years ago there were Hindu riots in Birmingham on account of a new play.
As for Islam remember the cartoon images in the Dutch press which caused a stir, they were banned in the UK. The only nation to actually go as far as to ban them, quite contrary to the government view on similar comments on other faiths including Christianity. The cartoons that causes a stir were in fact very tame, you would see similar ones very frequently in Private Eye or in the funnies of the newspapers. it is hard to take offense at them, but Islam has grown a privileged position where it can afford to have no sense of humour.
This is what Rowan Atkinson was complaining about regarding a new law restricting lampooning of religion and campaigning for the bill to be scrapped. He said that much of this routine would disappear if he could not lampoon priests he has a point, but also missed the point. The government had to make the legislation appear blanket, even though it is still not applied in the effect of lampooning Christian priests and likely never will the laws restricting lampooning of religion are there for Jews Hindus and especially for Moslems. I was wondering if Rowan Atkinson would like to play a game of 'Rowan roulette', whereupon he was given a live mike, unrestricted recording, and six jokes in envelopes, five containing hardened jokes mocking Christianity, and one equally hardened joke which profaned Islam. How many would he dare open? Atkinson is a clever man, not least because he knows what he can get away with, I have seen plenty of his anti christian sketches and caticatures in numerous works, and he does a very funny job. I am yet to see him ever lampoon Judaism or Islam or a follower of such.
legoburner wrote:You think stuff is crazy now, just wait until a red cow is born! Basically it is the prerequisite to building the third temple in Jerusalem.
There are multiple groups around the world trying to breed a perfect red cow just for this purpose. All past attempts ended up getting a few blemishes as the cow grew older.
To quote from the wiki article and temple article:
Some Christians believe that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ cannot occur until the Third Temple is constructed in Jerusalem, which requires the appearance of a red heifer born in Israel.
The Talmud records that of the mysteries of God recorded in the Old Testament , the Red Heifer sacrifice it is the only one Solomon did not understand the meaning of.
It is required for those forms of Judaism seeking the coming of the Messach, its is not required for Christianity. Some signs for the Second Coming are required, but the Red Heifer is not one of them. instead there is all the 666, three and half years of Tribulation and such stuff.
While I can beleive some Chritian fringe groups might be wanting a Red Heifer, but they don't read their Bibles if they do. The Red Heifer is only needed prior to the first coming of the Messiah not the second. looking at the link this ma even be a minority of one, the nutcase trying to breed one.
As for building the Third Temple, the Red Heifer is the least of the problems, what is required are the temple ornaments, thats a LOT of gold, and some land clearance. as the land clearnace includes the Dome of the Rock mosque, the second most holy place in Islam after the Kabbah, you are immeidately going to have problems way beyond the colour of a cow.
Kilkrazy wrote:mattyrm do you know there are fundamentalist Christians who for religious reasons have murdered doctors?
I think you are talking about anti-abortionist nutjobs yes. we have two subsets there, most Christians are pro-life however they are only a portion of the anti-abortion movements. Those who picket abortion clinics can come from extremist fringe churches but also comes from secular society. it isnt fair to blame that on christians, and those nutjobs like the Westboro Baptists can be rightly dismissed as not-Christian at all in the same way an honest Moslem should disown suicide bombers.
Frazzled wrote:Modquisition on. Final warning. Posts disparaging other posts will lead to disciplinary proceedings from this point forward. All are advised as such.
Change that to personal attacks on other posters, and I will take it entirely at face value.
One can express a negative opinion, while not attacking the poster themselves.
I think dakka needs some islamic representation. The bible has all of that horrible violent bigoted crap in it as well, but as soon as some body brings that up, the jesus fan club pops in and gives their interpretations which seem far less violent and criminal than the actual words written in the book imply.
Im sure a few good muslims could do the same, here?
Kanluwen wrote:
And Fate:
Peaceful protests against gay marriage? Hahahahahaha. Sorry there sweetheart, but when the idea of a "peaceful" protest is carrying signs saying "FAGS BURN IN HELL" or "YOU'RE WHY GOD HATES AMERICA" is no fething way peaceful.
Also, Deadshane?
Christianity is not one to be casting stones about stupid people and their statements.
Or hey, how about Haiti just asking for that earthquake or New Orleans offending God?
The people who do this have as much in common with you by being 'fellow Americans' than they do with me for being 'fellow Christians'.
Do you feel kinship to them or their beliefs world views and lifestyles. No. We dont either.
Frazzled wrote:Modquisition on. Final warning. Posts disparaging other posts will lead to disciplinary proceedings from this point forward. All are advised as such.
Change that to personal attacks on other posters, and I will take it entirely at face value.
One can express a negative opinion, while not attacking the poster themselves.
Sigh, it takes someone with an avatar of dancing monkeys (or monkeys stick fighting) to show the way of it.
personal attacks against other posters or dispersions against their character will not be tolerated from this point on.
Falconlance wrote:I think dakka needs some islamic representation. The bible has all of that horrible violent bigoted crap in it as well, but as soon as some body brings that up, the jesus fan club pops in and gives their interpretations which seem far less violent and criminal than the actual words written in the book imply.
We also don't need to fight fire with fire. I was literally two seconds from flooding this thread with quotes from every other religion expressing the exact same ideologies, but that would have been a very bad idea... Refer to wall of Koran text on this page, for context.
Im sure a few good muslims could do the same, here?
We don't need this to turn into a poo-slinging fest.
Frazz wrote:Sigh, it takes someone with an avatar of dancing monkeys (or monkeys stick fighting) to show the way of it.
personal attacks against other posters or dispersions against their character will not be tolerated from this point on.
Kanluwen wrote:
And Fate:
Peaceful protests against gay marriage? Hahahahahaha. Sorry there sweetheart, but when the idea of a "peaceful" protest is carrying signs saying "FAGS BURN IN HELL" or "YOU'RE WHY GOD HATES AMERICA" is no fething way peaceful.
Also, Deadshane?
Christianity is not one to be casting stones about stupid people and their statements.
Or hey, how about Haiti just asking for that earthquake or New Orleans offending God?
The people who do this have as much in common with you by being 'fellow Americans' than they do with me for being 'fellow Christians'.
Do you feel kinship to them or their beliefs world views and lifestyles. No. We dont either.
But therein lies the point, Orlanth.
Does it seem likely in any way, shape, or form that the majority of Muslims approve of suicide bombers blowing themselves up in the middle of a crowded schoolyard in Baghdad, New Jersey, or anywhere?
Of course not, no more than the majority of Christians would approve of some guy firebombing an abortion clinic or killing a homosexual couple.
Kanluwen wrote:
And Fate:
Peaceful protests against gay marriage? Hahahahahaha. Sorry there sweetheart, but when the idea of a "peaceful" protest is carrying signs saying "FAGS BURN IN HELL" or "YOU'RE WHY GOD HATES AMERICA" is no fething way peaceful.
Also, Deadshane?
Christianity is not one to be casting stones about stupid people and their statements.
Or hey, how about Haiti just asking for that earthquake or New Orleans offending God?
The people who do this have as much in common with you by being 'fellow Americans' than they do with me for being 'fellow Christians'.
Do you feel kinship to them or their beliefs world views and lifestyles. No. We dont either.
First off, to those who say Islam has been getting a free pass when it comes to not being Discriminated against, I want to say, "Are you blind deaf and dumb!?!" American Dad, Team America Movie, Family Guy, South Park, Fox, Savage/Levin/Haniity/Beck, Anne Coulter, Bob Horowitz, Geert Wilders, Billy Graham and His son, Jerry Falman (I think vthat's his name) have all given Islam ALOT of Flak, flame, and bigoted, untrue stereotyping. So Matt, I think you need to step out of that rock you've been living in, because for the past 10 years, Islam has been prime hunting game when it comes to bashing/flaming.
Are you guys really that ignorant to think that al-Quaeda, Taliban, Hizbi-Islami, represent the entirety of Islam? Do you really think that whenever Osama Bin Laden Sends a message, every Mosque in the world broadcasts it during Jumaa prayer? Well, hate to burst your Bigoted bubble, but you are DEAD wrong.
Matt, Fateweaver, I want to know, have you ever even READ a Quran?
Have you ever read any Islamic books, like by Ahmed Dedaat?
Have you ever even SPOKEN to a muslim Shiekh? Or ever even spoken to a muslim period?
I doubt you even look online for info about Islam.
How do you know what you say is true? I can garuntee that Deadshane1's statement that, "the Koran teaches muslims to kill the Jews and behead the infidel."
WTF kind of crap is that?
Islam is a very tolerant religion. The quran itself states that "there is no compulsion in religion", and here is a Surah devoted to that:
Suraat al Kafiroon (The Unbelievers)
Oh those who do not believe!
I do not worship what you worship
You do not worship what I worship
And I will never vworship what you worship
And you will never worship what I worship
Go your way, and I shall go mine.
^ is a good example of islam's tolerance.
Deadshane1 wrote:"When can we acceptably start getting angry at Islam?"
I'd say (since I must be an infidel) it was about the time that the Kouran suggested it was ok to cut my friggin' head off.
See, I rather prefer my head attached to my body.
I.E. Screw that barbaric religion....in the goat butt.
You know, bigoted statements like that, don't prove your point. Actually, they show how incredibly ignorant you are.
Matt says, When should we be angry with Islam? When should I b angry with christians? I should hate vall christians because of the Christian Identity movement (A white supremecist Christian oraginzation)? Should the inquisition, or the crusades have pissed me off? I should obviously be angry at all christian, because that group represents ALL of christianity, doesn't it?
matt and fate are under the assumption that all muslims, (now remember, there's 1.5 BILLION of them) act and think likev one person. They don't, they all have different beliefs, though the core beliefs are the same: That God (or Allah, or Jehovah, or Yahweh) is one and Muhammad is the his last prophet.
And yes, some people in the middle east don't really like the west. Why? well, since I spent a good 13 months there, I know. They feel the west doesn't care about them. They see the as constantly acting so condensending toward them, that all they want is their oil. There is a saying that goes, "No one cared about the middle east before they found oil, and no one will care when they run out"
I spent a year going back and forth between Jerusalem and Amman, the Capital of Jordan. People are poor, and alot aren't educated. So poor uneducated people, who don't know, easliy can hate. And terrorsits take advantage of that. THey vexploit a few fears and turn it into a roaring fire of hate, fueled by a perversion of a tolerant religion.
So Fate, Shane, Matt, and anyone else, get your facts straight before you criticise my religion.
Sorry, I'll continue to be biased so long as the nut jobs practicing Islam keep blowing up or attempting to blow up skyscrapers and towers and setting off bombs in Times Square.
Then how do you explain that LONG post that I made last page?
Tolerant religion....riiiggghhhtt. I'm not buying what you're selling. However, its your religion so I suppose you're obligated to support it. Maybe you should know some of the passages of your own bible.
"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
Then how do you explain that LONG post that I made last page?
I could do one of those for christianity if you like. Bhuddism as well (Did you know that collected bhuddist writ is almost 20 times as long as all the combined biblical texts?). I could definitly do it for judaism, some of the stuff in the old testament is just ridiculous. It would be all to easy to do it for hindu.
It proves absolutely the feth nothing.
"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
That sounds like a call to proselytize, not a call to violence. That is unless you have a totally different definition for the words stern or strive than the ones everyone else uses.
Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.
I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.
So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.
Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.
Funny, I went through Confirmation and went to church every Sunday from infant to HS and I don't recall the Bible containing phrases anywhere near that.
"Don't worship false idols."
"Do unto others as they would do unto you."
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
Yep, those certainly do compare to the passages Deadshane posted. Eye roll.
Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.
I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.
So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.
Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.
Unless Dead is quoting from a different Quran he cited several passages that stated infidels and non-believers should be killed. We had isthatmycow defend his religion and say it's tolerant. I pointed out the irony of his religions view of tolerance.
Then how do you explain that LONG post that I made last page?
Tolerant religion....riiiggghhhtt. I'm not buying what you're selling. However, its your religion so I suppose you're obligated to support it. Maybe you should know some of the passages of your own bible.
"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
Sounds tolerant to me.
As you may well know by now I am no moslem but I must give isthatmycow some support for coming here. It gets heated enough defending Chritianity, and I am not not alone. Got a Moslem who wants to defend his corner, lets give him standing room.
Your one liner comments were unfair asn many verses need to be read in context. This is especially true of the Koran, wherin a proper recital is usually of a minimum length. Chritians may use a lot of one liner quotes, not normally the very nice ones and those that can be understood within the length of the sentence.
All of the Judaic religions have some hard stuff in them, and it requires interpretation. a lot of fighting talk is about fighting sin or fighting a spiritual fight. The Epistles talks about putting on the Armour of God and making a stand in the fight, this is NOT a call to arms, it's a call to prayer.
Then how do you explain that LONG post that I made last page?
Tolerant religion....riiiggghhhtt. I'm not buying what you're selling. However, its your religion so I suppose you're obligated to support it. Maybe you should know some of the passages of your own bible.
"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
Sounds tolerant to me.
As you may well know by now I am no moslem but I must give isthatmycow some support for coming here. It gets heated enough defending Chritianity, and I am not not alone. Got a Moslem who wants to defend his corner, lets give him standing room.
Your one liner comments were unfair asn many verses need to be read in context. This is especially true of the Koran, wherin a proper recital is usually of a minimum length. Chritians may use a lot of one liner quotes, not normally the very nice ones and those that can be understood within the length of the sentence.
All of the Judaic religions have some hard stuff in them, and it requires interpretation. a lot of fighting talk is about fighting sin or fighting a spiritual fight. The Epistles talks about putting on the Armour of God and making a stand in the fight, this is NOT a call to arms, it's a call to prayer.
You need context.
I guess we're taking the Quran WAY out of context then....havent seen any other religion ever taken so out of context before. You know with so many passages about killing, infidels, putting people to the sword and such.
I'd like to see such an "out of context" list be made out of the New Testement. Do so and I'll eat some crow.
Fateweaver wrote:
Unless Dead is quoting from a different Quran he cited several passages that stated infidels and non-believers should be killed. We had isthatmycow defend his religion and say it's tolerant. I pointed out the irony of his religions view of tolerance.
How again is that making stuff up?
English translations of Arabic are notoriously wonky, and almost always heavily politicized. In general, unless you can read Arabic, its a good idea not to accept any one translation of the Koran, which is especially difficult to translate. That in and of itself points towards a tendency of 'making stuff up'.
Additionally, you're pointing to a religion as a though it were a monolith, which is stupid. Do all Christians believe that the earthquake in Haiti was caused by a deal with the devil, as Pat Roberston stated? Do all Christians believe that its acceptable to murder abortion clinic doctors, or set fire to the clinics themselves, as several have done or attempted to do? Of course not, and it would be ludicrous to draw that conclusion.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Old Testement perhaps...I doubt you could do that well in the New, you know, were Jesus teaches ACTUAL tolerance and love?
Matthew 10:34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
He throws the money-changers out of the temple. He commands you to leave your family behind and let the dead bury the dead. And most importantly, he tells you to follow the Old Testament laws (which is often white-washed since they are inconvenient).
Christianity has it's share of calls to violence. Both religions share a common root, so it's to be expected to some degree. What members of a faith practice can differ significantly from their holy texts. Muslim faiths feature a heavy balance of tradition as part of their teachings, making them more akin to Catholics than Protestant Christians.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Old Testement perhaps...I doubt you could do that well in the New, you know, were Jesus teaches ACTUAL tolerance and love?
Matthew 10:34: Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Matthew 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
He throws the money-changers out of the temple. He commands you to leave your family behind and let the dead bury the dead. And most importantly, he tells you to follow the Old Testament laws (which is often white-washed since they are inconvenient).
Well, thats three against the...how many did I post? Keep going and we'll see which text is more hateful and intolerant...and which promotes peace and nonviolence.
Christianity has it's share of calls to violence. Both religions share a common root, so it's to be expected to some degree. What members of a faith practice can differ significantly from their holy texts. Muslim faiths feature a heavy balance of tradition as part of their teachings, making them more akin to Catholics than Protestant Christians.
Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.
I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.
So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.
Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.
Unless Dead is quoting from a different Quran he cited several passages that stated infidels and non-believers should be killed. We had isthatmycow defend his religion and say it's tolerant. I pointed out the irony of his religions view of tolerance.
How again is that making stuff up?
It's making things up because the quote didn't say that.
"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
That does not say "kill unbelievers". It says strive against them. This can mean argue with them to change their minds, divert them from their wicked path, and save them from Hell.
That's a different interpretation. I'm no Koranic scholar so I will not presume to say whether mine or Fateweaver/DeadShane's is correct.
However it is clear that the words do not say "kill people".
Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.
I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.
So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.
Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.
Unless Dead is quoting from a different Quran he cited several passages that stated infidels and non-believers should be killed. We had isthatmycow defend his religion and say it's tolerant. I pointed out the irony of his religions view of tolerance.
How again is that making stuff up?
It's making things up because the quote didn't say that.
"O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
That does not say "kill unbelievers". It says strive against them. This can mean argue with them to change their minds, divert them from their wicked path, and save them from Hell.
That's a different interpretation. I'm no Koranic scholar so I will not presume to say whether mine or Fateweaver/DeadShane's is correct.
However it is clear that the words do not say "kill people".
Perhaps you prefer this one...
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Or
Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.
Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.
I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.
So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.
Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.
You might disgaree with his argument, but rebut it, politely. He's not being insulting to you in that post.
Deadshane1 wrote:
I guess we're taking the Quran WAY out of context then....havent seen any other religion ever taken so out of context before. You know with so many passages about killing, infidels, putting people to the sword and such.
I'd like to see such an "out of context" list be made out of the New Testement. Do so and I'll eat some crow.
Matthew 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.
For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
and one's enemies will be those of his household."
Attributed to Jesus himself, no less. Apparently Jesus advocated fratricide, matricide, patricide, and perhaps even infanticide. Of course, that's not what this passage really means, but there you have it.
Luke 19:26-27
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" .
Also attributed to Jesus.
I can look up some others if you like, but those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head.
I think im gonna try and bust out another 80 pages of the Quran when I get home. Hopefully the thread will still be active tomorrow, maybe I can add something useful.
dogma wrote: Luke 19:26-27
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" .
Also attributed to Jesus.
I can look up some others if you like, but those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head.
Ooh, wow, how did THAT one stay hidden from me all this time?
Deadshane1 wrote:
I guess we're taking the Quran WAY out of context then....havent seen any other religion ever taken so out of context before. You know with so many passages about killing, infidels, putting people to the sword and such.
I'd like to see such an "out of context" list be made out of the New Testement. Do so and I'll eat some crow.
Matthew 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.
For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
and one's enemies will be those of his household."
Attributed to Jesus himself, no less. Apparently Jesus advocated fratricide, matricide, patricide, and perhaps even infanticide. Of course, that's not what this passage really means, but there you have it.
Luke 19:26-27
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" .
Also attributed to Jesus.
I can look up some others if you like, but those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head.
So far that's 5 passages against my "Wall of Hatred and Intolerance"....keep going. So far the Quran is BY FAR the more hateful Tome.
Small wonder that it is preferred by the more hateful and authority chafing inmates in jail IMHO.
Deadshane1 wrote:
So far that's 5 passages against my "Wall of Hatred and Intolerance"....keep going. So far the Quran is BY FAR the more hateful Tome.
Small wonder that it is preferred by the more hateful and authority chafing inmates in jail IMHO.
I'm actually itemizing and refuting that post right now, if this thread gets closed before I'm done, I'll post it in a separate thread. In any case, I know where you lifted that wondrous little list from, so I doubt that you read the entirety of it.
Falconlance wrote:Dang Shane, back down buddy, you made your point, on paper Islam is the big bully and christianity is the little bully. Let someone else have a go.
Nope....I love bein' right! (...and making fun of organised religion!)
dogma wrote: Luke 19:26-27
"I say to you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. As for my enemies who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and kill them in my presence" .
Also attributed to Jesus.
I can look up some others if you like, but those are the ones I can recall off the top of my head.
Ooh, wow, how did THAT one stay hidden from me all this time?
The Luke 19 quote is misleading because it's a partial quote. The line Dogma tries to use to say Jesus said to kill people was actually the words of a nobleman in a parable. Let's take it in context, shall we?
Luke 19:11 While they were listening to these things, Jesus went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately.
12So He said, "A nobleman went to a distant country to receive a kingdom for himself, and then return.
<snip verses 13-25>
26"I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
27"But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence."
I'd like to remind everyone of another verse. Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"
As a general rule, the books weren't written to have single snippets taken out of as we're so accustomed to doing today. It's not like the scrolls have little numbers next to different passages. Out of context quotes from any book mean almost nothing. I believe the phrase war of attrition applies here...
Deadshane1 wrote:
So far that's 5 passages against my "Wall of Hatred and Intolerance"....keep going. So far the Quran is BY FAR the more hateful Tome.
Small wonder that it is preferred by the more hateful and authority chafing inmates in jail IMHO.
I'm actually itemizing and refuting that post right now, if this thread gets closed before I'm done, I'll post it in a separate thread. In any case, I know where you lifted that wondrous little list from, so I doubt that you read the entirety of it.
Hey man, where there's smoke there's fire. Thats not bigotry, prejudice, or anything but good police work! I dont see much of an uprising online against Christianity.
See, as hateful as some christians can be, looking down their noses at you because you dont have the same faith as they, at least they're not blowing up stuff with people inside.....well, much.
The Green Git wrote:
I'd like to remind everyone of another verse. Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"
Alright, so whats that one mean nowadays, and what did it mean back in the day?
The Green Git wrote:
I'd like to remind everyone of another verse. Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!"
Alright, so whats that one mean nowadays, and what did it mean back in the day?
Since you asked... what it means to me is you shouldn't say it's good that people go around sawing heads off and say it's bad when a policeman puts down a menace to society.
You really think im going to read 5 pages crammed full of biased posts and weak flame baiting falcon?
I rather not waste the time, just posting my views on it as a whole.
I think that this thread would do better if deadshane, Fateweaver and Shuma stayed out for a day or two to left things cool down since they seem to the the "fringe" posters of this discussion.
Mortified Penguin wrote:I think that this thread would do better if deadshane, Fateweaver and Shuma stayed out for a day or two to left things cool down since they seem to the the "fringe" posters of this discussion.
If you remove the extremes, all youve done is promoted the next mark over to the fringe.
No, at this point Dakka Rule #1 to other posters is being followed with vigor. For the moment as long as that is followed and this doesn't drop into nanynanybooboo level (note I'm not posting) then trying to keep open.
Anyway, I will leave this thread though (with of course my wall of Quran Quotes) because this entire issue is assinine.
YES, you're completely justified in being angry with Islam. Anything taken to extreme is bad. To argue that all Islams are tolerant and peaceful is a ridiculous statement. Of course, I'm sure some are tolerant and peaceful, possibly even the majority. Be angry at the ones that blow up sh!t and kill innocents for no other reason than political or religios aggenda. Nothing justifies that.
By the same token, I can see how people could be angry with the site that I grabbed that long list of atrocious quotes. They're justified as well, but not to the point of violence.
I dont beleive in ANY organised religion. In my opinion they're all silly little books that people take FAR too literally...christians included.
The SECOND you take your beliefs and attempt to influence MY life against my will...you're wrong. Worship in private and dont bug me? More power to you!
I DO find the Quran a bit extreme, and many of their followers extreme as well. I DO find that more violent inmates seem to follow islam and remain intolerant and violent, whilst heavy duty christians in the block tend to be mild and obedient...take from that what you will. Fact is right now there are 3 inmates in my block that I KNOW have the Quran in their property, one of which is devout...all three are actually "BLOODS", two of which are VERY defiant inmates. Strange that I notice that sort of thing but dont notice the same capability of violence in devout christian inmates. Hmmmmm.
From what I've seen I find it to NOT be a very tolerant religion...AT ALL. I don't find Christians to be very tolerant either...in fact...I've met some Christians that were downright hateful!
Whatever, I scoff at your organised religion, all of them. ESPECIALLY Islam. Now is not really the time to be touting the Tolerance and Peacefulness of your religion in America...not unless you're ready for this sort of thread.
Wow... Okay, okay, It seems to me that deadshane and fate are playing the, "Oh but they are worse than us!"
Christianinty is no better than Islam (in the whole emtremist sense)
DO NOT come here and say that ALL Christians are peaceful loving people. DO NOT say that all muslims are hating people. DO NOT say that Islam is a violent, bloody religion. A TINY minority, A TINY, not even significant in population terms, are extreme, they twist This religion into their own sick twisted cult. I mean, christ, Fate, Shane, you are calling me a Jew hating, Christian hating, Violent person, by the way you depict Islam. I am not, and niether are any muslims I know. My best friend, the person I've relied on, since freaking 1st grade is Hard-core Baptist. Another close Friend of mine is Jewish. I see women as my equals, not as my sex slaves. I don'twant to kill all non muslims. I mena, you say that Islam has done this and that, WHAT ABOUT CHRISTIANS! What about Hutaree, thatgroup that tried to bomb a Police Officers wedding? Shristian Identity Movement? A majority of Nazis? How about Slave owners? Many did that in hteName of Jesus. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, these are emaples of Christian extremists. Passages from the Bible were given out to counter passages of the Quran. Hell, both exdamples are probably not even good enough, as Arabic to English translation pof the Quran is many times Shoddy, ANd there are God know how many different versions and translations of the Bible. You know, it's so, so easy to criticise things you don't know gak about. Not every Muslim is terrorist. Nearly ALL of us are normal people just trying to get on with our lives. And some fethers, a bunch of dip-shitted, dumb-ass, Cock-bags are ruining it for all of us. the actions of those FEW VERY FEW, and now those are the beliefs of all. It's complete horse-gak. I am Adam Muhammad Ismail Sweilem, 15, Muslim, Sunni. I lovevguitar, Blue, I pray 5 -times a day, I love 40k, I love games. My Muslim friends all have their own likes, but NONE of us hate others (race, religion, etc.) W are muslims, we are not terrorists, aned it is time you got that in your head
When I said leave for a day, I meant in order to give poeple time to collect their arguments and to cool tempers. I didn't intend to try and "censor" anyone (note I suggested that both sides leave). In any case having this kind of debate over the internet is difficult since everything gets distorted and exaggerated through the medium of text. Personally, I don't care one way or the other, although the level of Islamophobia in Europe has some dangerous parallels with historical anti-Semitism.
isthatmycow wrote:Wow... Okay, okay, It seems to me that deadshane and fate are playing the, "Oh but they are worse than us!"
Christianinty is no better than Islam (in the whole emtremist sense)
DO NOT come here and say that ALL Christians are peaceful loving people. DO NOT say that all muslims are hating people. DO NOT say that Islam is a violent, bloody religion. A TINY minority, A TINY, not even significant in population terms, are extreme, they twist This religion into their own sick twisted cult. I mean, christ, Fate, Shane, you are calling me a Jew hating, Christian hating, Violent person, by the way you depict Islam. I am not, and niether are any muslims I know. My best friend, the person I've relied on, since freaking 1st grade is Hard-core Baptist. Another close Friend of mine is Jewish. I see women as my equals, not as my sex slaves. I don'twant to kill all non muslims. I mena, you say that Islam has done this and that, WHAT ABOUT CHRISTIANS! What about Hutaree, thatgroup that tried to bomb a Police Officers wedding? Shristian Identity Movement? A majority of Nazis? How about Slave owners? Many did that in hteName of Jesus. The Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, these are emaples of Christian extremists. Passages from the Bible were given out to counter passages of the Quran. Hell, both exdamples are probably not even good enough, as Arabic to English translation pof the Quran is many times Shoddy, ANd there are God know how many different versions and translations of the Bible. You know, it's so, so easy to criticise things you don't know gak about. Not every Muslim is terrorist. Nearly ALL of us are normal people just trying to get on with our lives. And some fethers, a bunch of dip-shitted, dumb-ass, Cock-bags are ruining it for all of us. the actions of those FEW VERY FEW, and now those are the beliefs of all. It's complete horse-gak. I am Adam Muhammad Ismail Sweilem, 15, Muslim, Sunni. I lovevguitar, Blue, I pray 5 -times a day, I love 40k, I love games. My Muslim friends all have their own likes, but NONE of us hate others (race, religion, etc.) W are muslims, we are not terrorists, aned it is time you got that in your head
Take a vicadin, man. I got gak to do so I'll leave this thread for a few hours (or maybe forever). Though I have a feeling it won't be up much longer.
Mortified Penguin wrote:When I said leave for a day, I meant in order to give poeple time to collect their arguments and to cool tempers. I didn't intend to try and "censor" anyone (note I suggested that both sides leave). In any case having this kind of debate over the internet is difficult since everything gets distorted and exaggerated through the medium of text. Personally, I don't care one way or the other, although the level of Islamophobia in Europe has some dangerous parallels with historical anti-Semitism.
I have overheard many, and participated in one (very short, due to my aversion to being shouted down) conversations that covered this exact same topic. The amount of rhetoric I hear, has calmed down a bit, but it is still at strong as ever, and it still draws that strength from abstract statements concerning race and religion.
Folks found some on the New Testament, but honestly, a lot of modern Christian Fundamentalists find fuel for their hate in the Old.
Leviticus in particular is full of blood and exhortations about various things which are abominations in the sight of the Lord, and punishable by death. There are quite a few commandments having to do with violent relations with other religions scattered here and there.
Numbers 33:52 then you shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their figured stones, and destroy all their molten images and demolish all their high places;
Deuteronomy 7:5 "But thus you shall do to them: you shall tear down their altars, and smash their sacred pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire.
That Deuteronomy quote in particular gave me some unpleasant feelings about Christianity when I was a kid.
Overall, however, the point remains that nasty and terroristic behavior comes from a culture, and has more to do with poverty, misogyny, and tribalism than it does with any particular religion.
If Islam and Christianity were somehow magically switched in time, geography and which countries and cultures subscribed to them, Mattym would be starting this exact same conversation about Christianity, and and isthatmycow would have just posted a passionate stream of consciousness rant about his feelings as a young Christian, hating the stereotypes about Christian terrorists and fanatics.
I feel like I've just opened a door to a room and found a coke-fuelled orgy going on, but then as I've turned to leave, I've spotted my Mum out of the corner of my eye.
Y'know the feeling, kind of amused at first, maybe even a little excited - then shocked, and then a little bit depressed.
The Green Git wrote:
The Luke 19 quote is misleading because it's a partial quote. The line Dogma tries to use to say Jesus said to kill people was actually the words of a nobleman in a parable.
Of course its misleading, the purpose of the post was to illustrate that words in scripture, taken out of context, are meaningless. In fact, I even said that my 'interpretation' was wrong, in the same post.
Well, let's get this nonsense out of the way then. To begin, Deadshane got his information, virtually word for word from this website. The logo on the main page of this website?
Anyway, in the course of this post I will provide three different translations of the passages quoted by Deadshane; at least where there are substantively varying alternatives. I will not provide my own analysis, unless I am later questioned. I will, however, provide initial commentary pertaining to the structure of each passage as presented by Deadshane, and may also point out instances where the meaning of that passage is vague. These comments will be in bold and will refer to the passage below them. I will not comment on the Hadith, as it does not hold the same weight as the Koran.
Warning, this will be a very long post.
Anyway, on to it.
The manner in which this first passage has been treated is incredibly disingenuous. Even not accepting context, there is clearly an ellipsis present, which is not reassuring with respect to the veracity of the commentary. I will include the omitted segment when providing my alternative translations.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (2:191-193) - "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]...and fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah."
Koran 2:191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
PICKTHAL: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.
SHAKIR: And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
Koran 2:192
YUSUFALI: But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Koran 2:193
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
For the purposes of the following passage, and all passages which turn on the word, it should be noted that 'fight' is not intrinsically related to a physical (in the traditional sense) act.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."
Koran 2:244
YUSUFALI: Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.
SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearing, Knowing
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
Koran 3:56
YUSUFALI: "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
PICKTHAL: As for those who disbelieve I shall chastise them with a heavy chastisement in the world and the Hereafter; and they will have no helpers.
SHAKIR: Then as to those who disbelieve, I will chastise them with severe chastisement in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have no helpers.
The initial commentary here speaks of the descriptor 'unbelievers' as applying to Christians. This is incorrect, as the Christians were a protected group, subject to Dhimma; primarily because the doctrine of the Trinity is largely mirrored by the traditional interpretation of Allah as a single being with multiple aspects. Though it is true that Islam places more emphasis on the singularity of Allah.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
Koran 3:151
YUSUFALI: Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!
PICKTHAL: We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.
SHAKIR: We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.
The commentary for this passage points out that this passage is the theological basis for suicide bombing. It is correct, however suicide is considered to be against the interests of Islam, and its is broadly accepted that knowingly going to one's death is not subject to the promise of reward.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward."
Koran 4:74
YUSUFALI: Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
PICKTHAL: Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.
SHAKIR: Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (4:95) - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"
Koran 4:95
YUSUFALI: Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-
PICKTHAL: Those of the believers who sit still, other than those who have a (disabling) hurt, are not on an equality with those who strive in the way of Allah with their wealth and lives. Allah hath conferred on those who strive with their wealth and lives a rank above the sedentary. Unto each Allah hath promised good, but He hath bestowed on those who strive a great reward above the sedentary;
SHAKIR: The holders back from among the believers, not having any injury, and those who strive hard in Allah's way with their property and their persons are not equal; Allah has made the strivers with their property and their persons to excel the holders back a (high) degree, and to each (class) Allah has promised good; and Allah shall grant to the strivers above the holders back a mighty reward:
More ellipses.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (4:104) - "And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain..."
Koran 4:104
YUSUFALI: And slacken not in following up the enemy: If ye are suffering hardships, they are suffering similar hardships; but ye have Hope from Allah, while they have none. And Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
PICKTHAL: Relent not in pursuit of the enemy. If ye are suffering, lo! they suffer even as ye suffer and ye hope from Allah that for which they cannot hope. Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: And be not weak hearted in pursuit of the enemy; if you suffer pain, then surely they (too) suffer pain as you suffer pain, and you hope from Allah what they do not hope; and Allah is Knowing, Wise.
This passage, as with all passages in the eighth Surah, specifically relates to the concept of war in the name of God
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
Koran 8:12
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
SHAKIR: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."
Koran 8:15
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"
Koran 8:39
YUSUFALI: And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
PICKTHAL: And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
SHAKIR: And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (8:57) - "If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember."
Koran 8:57
YUSUFALI: If ye gain the mastery over them in war, disperse, with them, those who follow them, that they may remember.
PICKTHAL: If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.
SHAKIR: Therefore if you overtake them in fighting, then scatter by (making an example of) them those who are in their rear, that they may be mindful.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Koran 8:59
YUSUFALI: Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
PICKTHAL: And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.
SHAKIR: And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.
Koran 8:60
YUSUFALI: Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
PICKTHAL: Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
SHAKIR: And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Here it must be noted that the concept of idolatry in Islam is not akin to idolatry in Christianity.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:5) - "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them."
Koran 9:5
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:20) - "Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant."
Koran 9:20
YUSUFALI: Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).
PICKTHAL: Those who believe, and have left their homes and striven with their wealth and their lives in Allah's way are of much greater worth in Allah's sight. These are they who are triumphant.
SHAKIR: Those who believed and fled (their homes), and strove hard in Allah's way with their property and their souls, are much higher in rank with Allah; and those are they who are the achievers (of their objects).
Here note that 'son' is distinct from 'prophet', though in many ways the difference is the result of terminological confusion between Arabic and Greek.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:30) - "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"
Koran 9:30
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:38-39) - "O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place."
Koran 9:38
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! What aileth you that when it is said unto you: Go forth in the way of Allah, ye are bowed down to the ground with heaviness. Take ye pleasure in the life of the world rather than in the Hereafter? The comfort of the life of the world is but little in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! What (excuse) have you that when it is said to you: Go forth in Allah's way, you should incline heavily to earth; are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter? But the provision of this world's life compared with the hereafter is but little.
Koran 9:39
YUSUFALI: Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things.
PICKTHAL: If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom, and will choose instead of you a folk other than you. Ye cannot harm Him at all. Allah is Able to do all things.
SHAKIR: If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:41) - "Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew."
Koran 9:41
YUSUFALI: Go ye forth, (whether equipped) lightly or heavily, and strive and struggle, with your goods and your persons, in the cause of Allah. That is best for you, if ye (but) knew.
PICKTHAL: Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.
SHAKIR: Go forth light and heavy, and strive hard in Allah's way with your property and your persons; this is better for you, if you know.
Deadshane1 wrote:
(9:42) - "If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them"
Koran 9:42
YUSUFALI: If there had been immediate gain (in sight), and the journey easy, they would (all) without doubt have followed thee, but the distance was long, (and weighed) on them. They would indeed swear by Allah, "If we only could, we should certainly have come out with you": They would destroy their own souls; for Allah doth know that they are certainly lying.
PICKTHAL: Had it been a near adventure and an easy journey they had followed thee, but the distance seemed too far for them. Yet will they swear by Allah (saying): If we had been able we would surely have set out with you. They destroy their souls, and Allah knoweth that they verily are liars.
SHAKIR: Had it been a near advantage and a short journey, they would certainly have followed you, but the tedious journey was too long for them; and they swear by Allah: If we had been able, we would certainly have gone forth with you; they cause their own souls to perish, and Allah knows that they are most surely
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme."
Koran 9:111
YUSUFALI: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.
SHAKIR: Surely Allah has bought of the believers their persons and their property for this, that they shall have the garden; they fight in Allah's way, so they slay and are slain; a promise which is binding on Him in the Taurat and the Injeel and the Quran; and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Rejoice therefore in the pledge which you have made; and that is the mighty achievement.
Maybe just a little interpretation going on here
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (47:4) - "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners,"
Koran 47:4
YUSUFALI: Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
PICKTHAL: Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.
SHAKIR: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
The commentary here asks why the blind, lame, and sick are exempted if this is meant to be a spiritual jihad. The simple answer is that Islam generally requires works of its followers, and this allows certain exemptions where necessary.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (48:17) - "There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom."
Koran 48:17
YUSUFALI: No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill (if he joins not the war): But he that obeys Allah and his Messenger,- (Allah) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, (Allah) will punish him with a grievous Penalty.
PICKTHAL: There is no blame for the blind, nor is there blame for the lame, nor is there blame for the sick (that they go not forth to war). And whoso obeyeth Allah and His messenger, He will make him enter Gardens underneath which rivers flow; and whoso turneth back, him will He punish with a painful doom.
SHAKIR: There is no harm in the blind, nor is there any harm in the lame, nor is there any harm in the sick (if they do not go forth); and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, and whoever turns back, He will punish him with a painful punishment.
Wow, that's a wicked cut.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"
Koran 48:29
YUSUFALI: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
PICKTHAL: Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.
SHAKIR: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (61:4) - "Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way"
Koran 61:4
YUSUFALI: Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.
PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah loveth them who battle for His cause in ranks, as if they were a solid structure.
SHAKIR: Surely Allah loves those who fight in His way in ranks as if they were a firm and compact wall.
Tense is important here.
Deadshane1 wrote:
Qur'an (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed).
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end.
SHAKIR: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; and their abode is hell; and evil is the resort.
Anyway, if you've stuck with this post for this long, then thanks. If not, then you're not reading this, too bad. Here come some final insights.
As in the Bible, the majority of instances in which violence is advocated are highly contextual, and subject to translation error. You'll note that many of the above passages become far milder when translated differently. Additionally, it should be noted that most of the metaphors for violence are congregated in the first 10 Surahs of the Koran, and the Hadith. If we are permitted to assume that Christianity (as a whole) is a religion of peace on the basis of only part of its holy text (The New Testament), then it seems safe to say that cherry-picking the Koran is fully justifiable.
Matthew 10: 34-36
"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.
For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
and one's enemies will be those of his household."
Attributed to Jesus himself, no less. Apparently Jesus advocated fratricide, matricide, patricide, and perhaps even infanticide. Of course, that's not what this passage really means, but there you have it.
This is why you need to look at context.
This passage has nothing to do with fratricide, matricide, patricide, and perhaps even infanticide or any other 'cide. It's about persecution.
Jesus is saying that he is taking responsibility because the time will come when believers will be persecuted and hated, future tense from when he was speaking. As usual He is right and the warning timeless. Being a Christian can lay yourself open to all manner of abuse from those who hate the faith and yes persecution can come from any number of angles not excluding ones own family. The martyr I knew was stabbed to death by her own husband, a very close example of what Jesus was warning about.
While culpability for persecution is on the head of the abuser, Jesus knows that making a stand in his name is a catalyst for persecution as and of itself. Thus He feels reponsible for the plight of those who suffer in His name. All those who have known persecution for adherence to the Christian faith, and what I have experienced barely qualifies as touching this, can draw comfort from these verses.
This type of crap will only be resolved in 1 of 2 ways. Either its all going to boil down to severe war and we will kill everyone on the plant. Or 2. Our knowledge in sciences will transcend the need for religions, and we will all move to make life better through the glorious light of technology and one ness. It sounds pretty damn loopy, but if we all merge our bodies with technology more and more, eventually we will all be the same
KingCracker wrote:This type of crap will only be resolved in 1 of 2 ways. Either its all going to boil down to severe war and we will kill everyone on the plant. Or 2. Our knowledge in sciences will transcend the need for religions, and we will all move to make life better through the glorious light of technology and one ness. It sounds pretty damn loopy, but if we all merge our bodies with technology more and more, eventually we will all be the same
That second option sounds pretty bad. The 'one consciousness of humanity' thing.
KingCracker wrote:This type of crap will only be resolved in 1 of 2 ways. Either its all going to boil down to severe war and we will kill everyone on the plant. Or 2. Our knowledge in sciences will transcend the need for religions, and we will all move to make life better through the glorious light of technology and one ness. It sounds pretty damn loopy, but if we all merge our bodies with technology more and more, eventually we will all be the same
Way #3: Zombie Appocolypse, where everyone is too concerned with surviving over who worships who.
Anywho, My parents are pretty much christian fanatics, and you can imagine how they feel about having a son who doesn't share their beleifs.....
Personally, I beleive any "mainstream" religion is bad. I will use myself as an example: my parents included me into the catholic church before I was old enough to decide what I wanted to do with my life. Hell, I still have no idea what to do with my life. But they practically forced me into something I didn't want. I had to attend classes learning about how much everything was practically my fault, and that I should repent for things I didn't do. Now, I am not saying I don't beleive in A God, but I don't buy the one I have been raised to beleive in. I mean, the first part of the bible is saying "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", and the other half is saying "Turn the other cheek". So which is it?
Anyway, Yeah, I hate religion, partly because most of the time they don't make sense, but also because if your not worshipping this god or that god, or even THOSE gods, your going to hell purely for that reason..... I mean, seriously? I have to conform to 50 different religions just to have a chance of some sort of reward that NO ONE has any clue about, they just go by something someone else preachs?
mattyrm wrote:Aye calm down lads, no need to get so heated, neither of you blokes are muslims are you?
Thats all my point is, im obviously not saying all or even most muslims are bad people, im saying that to me it seems like the religion is not criticized as much as others, speicifically Chrsitianity, and when i say it is down to fear, people dispute it, but what else would it be?
There is a portion of the community of Islam that is hyper-sensitive to criticism. It's quite similar, basically, to the element of the African political scene that is hyper-sensitive about criticism of Africa.
It gets complicated because there are genuine issues within Islam, just as there are genuine issues with Africa, but there is also a lot of ignorant bigotry about Islam/Africa (in this thread Green Git claimed that the whole of Islam will only be happy with conquering the world) so they kind of have a point. It gets even more complicated because the bigotry goes the other way, with elements of Islam/Africa showing bigoted opinions towards the rest of the world, and parts of the rest of the world showing hyper-sensitivity to criticism.
The point is that real and substantial debate goes on despite all that rubbish. There are real movements to address the treatment of women in Islam, to address the rise of extremists. It's important to recognise and support these movements, and not fixate on the clash of cultures image the trash media loves to display.
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Deadshane1 wrote:Old Testement perhaps...I doubt you could do that well in the New, you know, were Jesus teaches ACTUAL tolerance and love?
...and not the "I want to cut your head off, but I'll be tolerant of you" brand of tolerance.
Yeah, but are you going to claim that Christians live up to the pacifist nature of the New Testament? Would you claim that it would even be possible for all people of a faith to follow that extent of pacifism?
I've read the Quoran, and the message I took was for a man to be educated, wise and disciplined. He was to use violence when needed, but only to fight the good fight - he was to a warrior scholar. No doubt that message has been perverted by some, but find me a faith that hasn't been perverted by some people.
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Deadshane1 wrote:To argue that all Islams are tolerant and peaceful is a ridiculous statement. Of course, I'm sure some are tolerant and peaceful, possibly even the majority.
I don't think anyone has argued all Muslims are tolerant, nor did anyone say that none were. Well, Green Git said they would only happy with conquering the world, but you know... Green Git. It's what you get from him.
The issue is how much you accept a very small minority should reflect on the majority. For some it's enough to damn them entirely, for others it shouldn't reflect the majority at all. I think both groups are wrong.
I mean, I know Muslims and I've found them a diverse and interesting lot, not found one of them held views I'd consider extreme, and when I meet Muslims in the future I'll continue taking each on his own terms. To be honest I feel a little sorry for people who act differently, going through life stereotyping people must make it hard to meet interesting people.
But that doesn't mean there aren't issues within greater Islam. I can understand the Taliban as a product of a disfunctional Afghani political situation, but I don't think the same holds for middle class second generation immigrants in the UK and US who are fed hatefilled stuff through their mosques - that's an issue Islam needs to recognise. Elements of Islam do recognise the problem, and hopefully in time more will.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote:Warning, this will be a very long post.
Fateweaver wrote:Tolerance is in the eye of the beholder Dead.
I tolerate people who txt and drive but that doesn't mean I don't want to drag them from their car and beat them with a tire iron.
So I guess you can tolerate people while still wanting to cut off their head.
Will you please stop posting? Fraz, can you make him stop posting? Seriously, he quotes people than just makes up arguments to argue against. No one said any of that and his bigoted intentional ignorance is insulting to the the point of lunacy.
You might disgaree with his argument, but rebut it, politely. He's not being insulting to you in that post.
He is actually. The sheer depth of his mindless ignorance should be insulting to you as well. I can take insult in things that are not directly aimed at me, in fact its something I suspect many people are capable of. Yourself included. Perhaps you should look at his "argument" and understand that its just unabashed trolling with literally no substance what so ever. You should then act accordingly.
You mean to tell me that you only want to cut off heads of people you don't tolerate? That you've never tolerated someone and yet still wanted to slap them around.
Like some kid throwing a tantrum at the restaurant. You have to tolerate it and yet at the same time you want to throttle that kid? Am I right?
So how is that post ignorant? You can tolerate someone while still wanting to inflict harm upon them.
Really man, let it go. You want me perma-banned. We get it. I want the same from you so at least we agree on something.
You mean to tell me that you only want to cut off heads of people you don't tolerate? That you've never tolerated someone and yet still wanted to slap them around.
Thats how you're trolling. Your not engaging in any discussion here, you're just misquoting people (clearly intentionally, since none of the things you're arguing against were particularly close to what people were saying) and then arguing against them to make christians look like a persecuted niceguy group while anyone that doesn't agree with your opinions (that don't make sense) defends people that cut off heads.
You're just being a troll, you have nothing to say in this topic and it clearly shows. You're just trying to make people angry.
I had my say about the topic. I was on topic and I wasn't misquoting people.
I have been responding in kind to what Deadshane posted as far as passages from the Quran. Unless he is looking at a different copy of the Quran those passages say what they say. "Death to infidels and disbelievers" pretty much sums it up. The Bible may elude to violence against non-believers but not in the way the Quran does. That is the point Deadshane was making and I am backing him up. Take off your goddamn rose colored glasses Shuma. All religions have their violent extremists but not to the degree that Islam does.
I don't apologize for stepping on anyones toes. Until Frazz or Reds8n or KK tell me to cease and desist I clearly have not broken any rules. If I didn't already have 2 bans under my belt I'd be tempted to break rule #1 just because you are acting like an antagonizing prick right now.
Seriously, my opinion on Islam is no less valid then your opinion about Christianity and Christians. Maybe the majority of Muslims are friendly and peace loving but it's hard to take it seriously when people who practice it, even at the extreme end of the spectrum, do things like crash planes into skyscrapers and try to blow up airplanes with underwear and shoe bombs.
It's no different than your view of the tea party. You hold disdain for the tea party because to you they are too radical and dangerous (and conservative). Not all tea partiers are as radical as the ones attacked by the MSM but you yourself have painted a very broad picture of all tea partiers based on a few. If you are allowed to stand on your soapbox and look down upon tea partiers for those reasons then I too am allowed to do the same in regards to ANY religion (not just Islam) that isn't Christianity.
Again, get over yourself. Like I said, I'd break rule #1 but I'd rather not get another vacation (at least not a vacation I myself didn't voluntarily take).
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