Clickety click

Man the last mission is a kick in the you know what for mechanized lists.

You mean armies that just run over the top of footsloggers will have a disadvantage?

Oh noes. Tyranids and foot slogging orks and foot guard might have a chance at the prelims now.

Shock and awe.

Warmaster wrote:Man the last mission is a kick in the you know what for mechanized lists.

Quite the disincentive for flying libby dreads, too.

for mission 3 do Drops pods, Demons or anything that deepstrikes count as 3?

Let's see it hoses ever transport in the game, It kills Blood Angels completely, and it makes no sense what so ever.

They sure wanted to make sure leafblower was out. It looks like they penalized Blood Angels in the process though.

It won't hose over a jumping BA army.

Actually a jumping BA army have an advantage. DoA for everything (since everything would have JP's) so very easy for inferno pistols to have the 3" melta range (or very least be within the 6" range).

If I had my DoA BA army ready in time I'd bring it.

Warmaster wrote:Man the last mission is a kick in the you know what for mechanized lists.

I saw your response before the .pdf loaded, and thought to myself: "Oh no, I bet they're doing something idiodic, like making vehicles worth double killpoints." I can't believe that GW managed to top my mental worst case scenario of dumb decisions. It's quite an accomplishment.

If there's one place I didn't expect idiotic and ham-handed comp. enforcement, it's the 'Ard Boyz. They don't even demand painted miniatures. I will probably still attend 'Ard Bozy, but this is incredibly frustrating, seeing as I just went out of my way to acquire 3 extra Chimeras and an extra Vendetta to turn my 1,850 point IG army into a "competitive" mechanized force for this "competitive" tournament.

Yeah, they really kicked Blood Angel's teeth in on the third mission, considering the majority of their army moves over 6".

You can't even field Mephiston without him counting as three. IMHO, they hurt Blood Angels more then Leaf Blower, whilst simultaneously giving Tyranids a huge boast. Stealer shock in Mission 3 makes people cry.

The rest of the missions are fine, but number three is just poorly written.

Dave_Fay wrote:for mission 3 do Drops pods, Demons or anything that deepstrikes count as 3?

Since deepstriking is more deployment than movement, I would imagine not... but they should probably define that clearly. It would be nice for them to explicitly say that units in transports don't count, either.

Vehicles count as moving at cruishing speed the turn they arrive.

By the strict letter then, Drop Pods count as 3 KPs.

The BA list I was thinking of brining gives up 40 kill points, while the Salamanders list I was thinking about gives up 19. The more I think about this mission, the more it pisses me off. I despise missions that intentionally hurt you just for what you bring.

I really like the first two, it's a step up from "insert mission here PLUS kill points" of last year. Tyranids won our local Aard Boyz test using last years mission, and my by calculation, that list he fielded gives up 15. If I face him with my BA I am already down by 25 before the dice even rolls, bad, bad mission design, worst then the modified KP one of last year.

From their example I can't quite figure out if the monolith would be worth 3, it can never move more than 6 inch's. But it allows a unit to come through it.

Part of the definition of 'cruising speed' is moving more than 6", yes? That would meen a monolith would count...

@Mahu: I feel your pain. My BA list jumps from 15 kp to 30... although, hell, even my Daemons would jump from 15 to 28.

CatPeeler wrote:Part of the definition of 'cruising speed' is moving more than 6", yes? That would meen a monolith would count...

@Mahu: I feel your pain. My BA list jumps from 15 kp to 30... although, hell, even my Daemons would jump from 15 to 28.

Except that in the Monolith rules it explicitly states that it may never move more than 6" a turn.

....although...assuming no full-mech players adjusted their lists to better suit the third scenario, it's pretty likely that full mech lists would dominate the top tables going into the final round. In that situation, since *both* armies would be hosed in kp, it may end up being a total wash.

If the 3rd mission came 1st (or worse, 2nd), then it would be a much bigger deal.

Fateweaver wrote:It won't hose over a jumping BA army.

Actually a jumping BA army have an advantage. DoA for everything (since everything would have JP's) so very easy for inferno pistols to have the 3" melta range (or very least be within the 6" range).

If I had my DoA BA army ready in time I'd bring it.

Everyone of those units are worth 3 kill points. If that is not hosing over an army I don't know what is. Hell even if you drop the back packs and get a transport it hurts you more. You went from 3 kill points to 4 kill points.

Warmaster wrote:Except that in the Monolith rules it explicitly states that it may never move more than 6" a turn.

Sure. The deepstrike rules, though, state that deepstriking units count as moving at cruising speed (i.e., greater than 6"). That "count as" bit may end up as a crotch-shot for pods & monoliths....

I just ran the numbers. Depending on how my Inquisitor dies, and whether or not I blob up my infantry, my army gives away between 53 and 56 KPs.

And to think I was talking to people yesterday about whether my army would be better if I dropped out an Assassin to field my last two extra Chimeras...

The mind boggles.

Have your FLGS contact their reps and ask, remember there are just about 12 guys who put this whole thing together and decide the scenarios too. Since I know those guys I expect the answer to come back for deep striking units as not worth extra points. Monolith will probably be worth the extra points. And yes, it can hose units over for sure. Makes me reconsider my land speeders as separate units, and if they count drop pods as 3 then I will use Eldar. I actually give up fewer VPs.

I love how 'ard boyz basically said

"feth da metal bawkses"

No sarcasm, btw, lol

Another interesting observation: All the games last a set 6 turns. I guess this is probably a good thing for playing such big games in such limited time, but I find random game length to be one of the most interesting aspects of the standard missions.

Dave47 wrote:Another interesting observation: All the games last a set 6 turns. I guess this is probably a good thing for playing such big games in such limited time, but I find random game length to be one of the most interesting aspects of the standard missions.

Agreed.

Won't mean a thing to slow-players, though...

Dave47 wrote:Another interesting observation: All the games last a set 6 turns. I guess this is probably a good thing for playing such big games in such limited time, but I find random game length to be one of the most interesting aspects of the standard missions.

Oh, it's still "random," as in "How many turns will we actually get through in 2.5 hours?"

Also, it's important to track your VPs every game, for that last bonus point in mission 3.

Haha...my DE list in the third mission could theoretically give up more than 60 KP, as it fields more than 15 units that can move greater than 6" in at least one phase of the game. If any of the wyches roll 12" assault, those units go from 1 KP to 3 KP, too.

In practice, I'll have to wait and see how this actually affects the outcome. Likely, after the first two missions, those at the highest tables in mission three will both be highly mechanized forces, so the difference in KP between the two opponents might not be that significant.

Though, it might be HUGE for some lists.

Janthkin wrote:Oh, it's still "random," as in "How many turns will we actually get through in 2.5 hours?"

Hah, fair point. Speeding up my thought process is one of the big things I need to work on; with that plus my new deployment trays, I'm hoping that I'll be able to keep things moving along at a reasonable clip. Of course, that all changes if I decide to have a banana freak-out and bring an all infantry IG army. Man, those things are slow to play! They make my mechanized IG look downright efficient. :-P

Why all the complaining, they give you 10 days to write a list.

One mission can be rough, but if you are fighting another mech list, whats the issue?

Also, its the third mission, if your mech army gets you to the third round with a couple good scores, you just need a draw to a minor victory to lock yourself in.

Not to mention, if you still shoot an army off the board you can still win by KP.

I think its a nice attempt to deterr the mechanized forces, but late in the tourney so it may still pay off to mech up.

I am not a fan of the set turns being at six. I like the chance element of not knowing if the game is going to end to make a gutsy late game move pay off.

I think you'll see a lot of full mech players starting that third mission all in reserves...

I'm only giving up 31 killpoints in mission #3 so I'll be fine. I want to tinker with my list for mission 1, as I only have 4 scoring units right now, but the right play might be to just shoot for a major victory. I see a lot more ties & minor wins using these missisions for most people. Should be fun!

oh great... VPs and table quarters... I didn't know we were playing 4th edition

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:Why all the complaining, they give you 10 days to write a list.

One mission can be rough, but if you are fighting another mech list, whats the issue?

Also, its the third mission, if your mech army gets you to the third round with a couple good scores, you just need a draw to a minor victory to lock yourself in.

Not to mention, if you still shoot an army off the board you can still win by KP.

I think its a nice attempt to deterr the mechanized forces, but late in the tourney so it may still pay off to mech up.

I am not a fan of the set turns being at six. I like the chance element of not knowing if the game is going to end to make a gutsy late game move pay off.

The ISSUE is that I run a pure bikers (space marine) list that I spent a lot of money on and I don't have the money or the time to revamp the army. Furthermore, although fast, bikers are not mech lists. I was gonna have a hard enough time winning before they decided to nerf my army as well.

Secondly, just because they built the game to make mech better, why nerf the lists that are supposed to be 'ard?

My army only gives up 28 kps in hte last mission... Not bad.

G

It doesn't matter to me since I'll be missing it due to family things this year but I'm not a fan of the missions at all. It did make me want to pull out my Tau or Nids since both would work well except I don't bring enough troops to massacre in round 1. In fact I'd say only foot orks, IG, and Nid's have the ability to massacre in round 1 which is interesting to me.

Good luck everyone You've now got a week to buy whatever you need to adjust to these off the wall missions

*LOL* I can't wait for the story of the Dark Eldar player who ends up playing the foot IG player with 36 killpoints in dedicated transports going against an entire army with only 12 killpoints total.

Maybe I should drop my marines & run a webway portal list

One mission should not make or break you in the 1st round. The 3rd mission would be tough in the finals though. There are not really a lot of pure infantry armies so I think overall it will all even out in the end.

G

Kan Wall orks FTW:

150 boys, 10 grots, 9 kans, 45 lootas, kff mek.

I'd take my chances with that...

As a weird sidenote, the first mission is an actual 'official' mission that will work with the Liber Heresius from WH. (Giving a 5/6 chance of first turn for the player who takes it with a lord.)

Too bad the other two don't use the roll for deployment zones thing.

Also surprised no one is complaining about having to have all 5 objectives on Mission 1 to get a Massacre. You'll need 5 living troops to win that one.

I play DE we always get screwed in KP anyway so I'm not really fazed by the third mission.

Hmmm... I may have to change up my doublewing as those small bike squads with attack bikes are giving up waaay too many KP's. 33 KP's total. I could easily change up some stuff and drop 9 KP's...

Or I can just say screw it as everyone will be hurting on this mission.

pretre wrote:Also surprised no one is complaining about having to have all 5 objectives on Mission 1 to get a Massacre. You'll need 5 living troops to win that one.

Depends on how you deploy the objectives, and how big your scoring units are. A unit of 4 infantry models can easily claim 2 objectives that are 12" apart.

Mission 3 is insane!!!!!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
My army has 42 fracking KP's in that mission!

Sweet baby jeesus, we have a really, really good Horde Ork player here, he will be the absolute murder to pull in that mission, almost an auto loss.

Is it really that hard the generate three missions that aren't completely fething slowed? I mean, I expected stupid, but GW never ceases to amaze me in that department.

Black Blow Fly wrote:My army only gives up 28 kps in hte last mission... Not bad.

G

24 here.

And BA didn't really get screwed. Why, because they have fast tanks? Well any rhino/razorback/LR/tank that can move over 6" (read any) will give up 3 KPs. The only thing that screwed BA's are the Sanguinary Guard and Jump Pack troops, both of which I haven't seen used yet. It's really not that bad.

If I take Lash for Mission 3, do I auto win?

(Now all your infantry can move 2d6 in my Shooting Phase. They are all now worth 3 KPs.)

pretre wrote:If I take Lash for Mission 3, do I auto win?

(Now all your infantry can move 2d6 in my Shooting Phase. They are all now worth 3 KPs.)

Also, infantry in an army with any transports are all capable of moving over 6" in the movement phase...

Stop being lame. Its already bad enough for good armies.

I have to say that is pretty lame. Mech lists already suffer in KP, why make it so much worse? There are gong to be match ups with 13 KP vs 45 KP, it will be stupid.

Ard Boyz is supposed to the best lists and players, why penalize mech armies at the last fething minute?

52 here, lol.

69 Killpoint Dark Eldar. Woot.

So, in round 3 you can table your opponent and still lose in a massacre. Fan-rific!

LMoE

LastManOnEarth wrote:So, in round 3 you can table your opponent and still lose in a massacre. Fan-rific!

LMoE

Actually, if you table your opponent, you automatically gain a massacre.

The first 2 missions are a wet dream for heavy mech lists.... the last one just evens it out. No night fight at all and you have complete control of when your stuff starts, I still see leaf blower winning out, the last mission will just be based on whoever goes first... oh wait thats how it always is any way.

Look at it this way. 1st 2nd missions are great for mech so a good mech player will be on table 1 in the last round with a pretty much guaranteed chance to be in the top 3 even if they lose. Leaf Blower/Razor Wire/Mechdar lines up with a foot slogging list last game, it should still be an even match. Even more so for leaf blower.....Leaf blower goes first.... 2 manticors and 3 medusa shots later followed by the multitude of heavy weaponry = mostly fecked up foot slogging army..

IG is always that way, go first with enemy on the table = auto win. Go second and you auto win only 50% of the time. If the enemy has stuff to rush you, take care of it first its worth 3 points each....if not thats good...2 to 3+ turns to pulverize slow enemy with massed cannon fire.

I thought night fight had too much of an effect in the second round last year, no night fight as of yet this year, that makes my mech list happy.

Don't frett too much sons of Rommel..

Stay trigger happy my friends...

How exactly is the first mission a "wet dream" for mech lists? It's just seize ground with slightly modified spearhead deployment.

Makes me wonder if releasing these a week before the event with such interesting missions was a bit of a marketing ploy on GW's part. What better way to drive up sales for non-mech boxes and impulse sales than to create missions such as these and release them in a fashion that gives you just enough time to get things ordered and rush shipped to you so that you can tweak your list?

Dashofpepper wrote:

LastManOnEarth wrote:So, in round 3 you can table your opponent and still lose in a massacre. Fan-rific!

LMoE

Actually, if you table your opponent, you automatically gain a massacre.

Well, I guess there's hope. Still bitter about the time I lost on KPs because of a single lousy plague marine.

I am curious how you get 69 KPs.

As I count, worst case is 6 jetbike Haemonculi (18), 3x Wyches in Raiders (12), 6x Raider Squads (24), 3x Reavers (9), 3 Ravagers (9) = 72.

More reasonable HQs would be about 9-12 points (jetbike lord = 3, retinue lord in reaver = 6 and/or 3x Haemonculi = 6), and I doubt many people are running 3x Reavers (or Hellions, lol).

LMoE

Standard mechanized DE, ramped up with RJB squads and warp beast packs (3 KP each) to flesh out 2500; I run a Wych cult led by Lelith - you can statistically presume one wych squad will roll a 1 and generate 3 killpoints.

Ok maybe I'm an idiot here but wouldn't a squad in a transport that moved over 6 inches still only be worth 1KP in the third mission? By the example they give a squad of marines joining a librarian with Gate is still only 1 KP even though they have the ability to move over 6 inches with the Librarians gate ability. Reads to me like the unit itself has to be able to move over 6 inches, not anything they may ride in/hitch a ride on/in.

Wychecult could have 81 kp depending on the drug rolls...

Another reason I am fielding a standard kabal, with only 50 KP =P

vonjankmon wrote:Ok maybe I'm an idiot here but wouldn't a squad in a transport that moved over 6 inches still only be worth 1KP in the third mission? By the example they give a squad of marines joining a librarian with Gate is still only 1 KP even though they have the ability to move over 6 inches with the Librarians gate ability. Reads to me like the unit itself has to be able to move over 6 inches, not anything they may ride in/hitch a ride on/in.

Sounds like you're not counting the transport as the 3KP unit that it is.

vonjankmon wrote:Ok maybe I'm an idiot here but wouldn't a squad in a transport that moved over 6 inches still only be worth 1KP in the third mission? By the example they give a squad of marines joining a librarian with Gate is still only 1 KP even though they have the ability to move over 6 inches with the Librarians gate ability. Reads to me like the unit itself has to be able to move over 6 inches, not anything they may ride in/hitch a ride on/in.

By normal KP rules, the transport and embarked unit each give up KPs. So a squad in transport would typically be 1+3=4 points total in this case.

KPs are silly things.

LMoE

Danny Internets wrote:How exactly is the first mission a "wet dream" for mech lists? It's just seize ground with slightly modified spearhead deployment.

I don't know, maybe the faster movement to get to the objectives, the protection granted while getting to said objective and last but not least the ability to tank shock your opponent off said objective... anymore points and I'd have a bed of nails to lie on.

What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Clthomps wrote:Wychecult could have 81 kp depending on the drug rolls...

102 KP by my count:

HQ 2x [Archite/Dracite = 3, Retinue = 3, Raider = 3] = 18
Elite 3x [Raider =3, Warriors =1] = 12
6x Warp Beasts [3] = 18
Troops 6x [Raider = 3, Wyches = 3] = 36
FA 3x Reavers [3] = 9
HS 3x Ravager [3] = 9

Although I doubt you could fit such a list in 2500.

I don't have Codex in front of me, so I could be wrong about the Warp Beasts. I seem to remember that in a Wyche cult you could take one per Wyche squad and it doesn't count as taking an Elite FOC slot.

Also, any character with Combat Drugs wargear can choose the Assault 12" option, which seems analogous to the case of a SM Librarian with Gate of Infinity, which they explicitly clarify as being 3 KP.

Good times, huh?

LMoE

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Hahaha, thanks for the wake up call. This is Dakka, after all. All we are supposed to complain about is crappy rules. We are supposed to be the guys that win the tournaments, not bitch about them.

Reecius wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Hahaha, thanks for the wake up call. This is Dakka, after all. All we are supposed to complain about is crappy rules. We are supposed to be the guys that win the tournaments, not bitch about them.

Exactly. All this whining about "changing the game" is more worthy of Warseer, or even YTTH.

The missions are wonky sometimes. Deal with it...they've always been that way. Remember modified kill points?

Good armies with good players will still come out on top, more likely than not. Mediocre players taking the netlist-of-the-week...won't. It's not because of the list, or because of the mission...it'll be because those players don't really understand the list they're playing, and so when confronted with an unusual situation they can't adapt.

LastManOnEarth wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Wychecult could have 81 kp depending on the drug rolls...

102 KP by my count:

HQ 2x [Archite/Dracite = 3, Retinue = 3, Raider = 3] = 18
Elite 3x [Raider =3, Warriors =1] = 12
6x Warp Beasts [3] = 18
Troops 6x [Raider = 3, Wyches = 3] = 36
FA 3x Reavers [3] = 9
HS 3x Ravager [3] = 9

Although I doubt you could fit such a list in 2500.

I don't have Codex in front of me, so I could be wrong about the Warp Beasts. I seem to remember that in a Wyche cult you could take one per Wyche squad and it doesn't count as taking an Elite FOC slot.

Also, any character with Combat Drugs wargear can choose the Assault 12" option, which seems analogous to the case of a SM Librarian with Gate of Infinity, which they explicitly clarify as being 3 KP.

Good times, huh?

LMoE

The warpbeast don't fit. You have to make some large sacrifices to get the points for the 3 jet bike squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Centurian99 wrote:

Reecius wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Hahaha, thanks for the wake up call. This is Dakka, after all. All we are supposed to complain about is crappy rules. We are supposed to be the guys that win the tournaments, not bitch about them.

Exactly. All this whining about "changing the game" is more worthy of Warseer, or even YTTH.

The missions are wonky sometimes. Deal with it...they've always been that way. Remember modified kill points?

Good armies with good players will still come out on top, more likely than not. Mediocre players taking the netlist-of-the-week...won't. It's not because of the list, or because of the mission...it'll be because those players don't really understand the list they're playing, and so when confronted with an unusual situation they can't adapt.

So your telling me that I have a chance to win Scenario #3 vs a Net-Listed Green Tide list played by a sub par player, when I play my dark eldar?

I call wishful thinking shenanigans!

IG88 wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:How exactly is the first mission a "wet dream" for mech lists? It's just seize ground with slightly modified spearhead deployment.

I don't know, maybe the faster movement to get to the objectives, the protection granted while getting to said objective and last but not least the ability to tank shock your opponent off said objective... anymore points and I'd have a bed of nails to lie on.

Your shocking revelation is that mechanized armies are good?

@Centurian99

I agree, buddy. We will see the same names at the top as every year because a good player overcomes adversity. And everyone will be facing the same challenges so despite the dumb ass mission (IMO) everyone is playing the same rules.

I am not changing my list, I spent too long getting it the way I want it. I think it will perform admirably no matter the mission or opponent.

One week and counting! Time to see what's what!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@clthomps
You have a good point, but I agree with Centurian99. I see good players win despite heavy odds against them consistently. WIll it be easy in that match up? Hell no, I hope I don't pull one of the best players in SD and his horde Orks on th at missions, but hey, if it happens and I win, then I REALLY won. I am not going to change my army on that potentiality.

And, Centurian99 knows what he's talking about. Check his tournament history!

I would really love a clarification on the drop pod in mission 3. It says each unit that has the potential to move 6" in a single game phase but drop pod only count as moving cruising speed they don't actually move.

Hopefully there will be some clarification for units such as drop pods & the Monolith, does not seem fair to gimp pods with a 3 kp status, way too easy that one is.

G

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Probably because people dont like missions that penalize armies to the degree of making one sided match-ups.

The case with Ork horde vs Dark Eldar airforce is basically autolose even with poor luck from the DE. Even the best player couldnt win that.

I just thought of a way to win the Green tide vs my DE.


First turn I will move incredibly slow, and shoot all his kans and a squad to death. 4 KP for me. Then when he starts his move I will ask him to remeasure every model. by the time thats done the time will be up and I will be Victorious!

Danny Internets wrote:

IG88 wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:How exactly is the first mission a "wet dream" for mech lists? It's just seize ground with slightly modified spearhead deployment.

I don't know, maybe the faster movement to get to the objectives, the protection granted while getting to said objective and last but not least the ability to tank shock your opponent off said objective... anymore points and I'd have a bed of nails to lie on.

Your shocking revelation is that mechanized armies are good?

ding ding.... Great success

Centurian99 wrote:

Reecius wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Hahaha, thanks for the wake up call. This is Dakka, after all. All we are supposed to complain about is crappy rules. We are supposed to be the guys that win the tournaments, not bitch about them.

Exactly. All this whining about "changing the game" is more worthy of Warseer, or even YTTH.

The missions are wonky sometimes. Deal with it...they've always been that way. Remember modified kill points?

Good armies with good players will still come out on top, more likely than not. Mediocre players taking the netlist-of-the-week...won't. It's not because of the list, or because of the mission...it'll be because those players don't really understand the list they're playing, and so when confronted with an unusual situation they can't adapt.

I agree, good players will adapt. I will adapt.

That still doesn't change that this is a mission that automatically disqualifies whole army books from being able to compete in the tournament and still have a shot at the win.

We can adapt, but the mission is just poorly designed.

thehod wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:What is with all the whining and complaining here. Is this Dakka, or is this Warseer?

Probably because people dont like missions that penalize armies to the degree of making one sided match-ups.

The case with Ork horde vs Dark Eldar airforce is basically autolose even with poor luck from the DE. Even the best player couldnt win that.

Without knowing exactly what he's taking and what he'd be facing, I can't give specifics...but so what? Every army has potentially bad matchups. That's part of the game too...getting lucky with your pairings.

That matchup would be bad news, even without the wonky KP rules.

Besides, taking a codex that's been unchanged for 10 years, and was created 2 editions of the game ago, and then claiming that because it wouldn't have a chance against one build the system is screwed is just ridiculous.

I agree entirely with centurian99 about the complainging here. What you are likely to see on the top tables is lots and lots of mech lists. Oh noes, leafblower ig vs maximum overdrive wolves. The kill points are fairly even in that game, even with the changes. While it does screw over all 7 dark eldar armies that will be playing this year, and puts a ding in regular mechdar, thats a minor loss. Anyone who is really good will probably win anways. But what it does is knock out the people who went out and bought a MO marine build or leafblower because its the biggest net list, and they couldnt play the game anyways. No loss there.

Yeah, but Dark Eldar have at least a shot with specific builds. Yeah, the codex is too old to account for every match up, and bad match ups happen, that's part of the game.

Trust me, normally I would be right with you. You adapt, you play hard, and if you meet your match, you make a game of it. Skill trumps codex and list (though they help).

A mission should never penalize you automatically just for what you take. That should be the first rule of good mission design. Missions provide challenge, missions can make players think a little harder then just going for tabling the opponent.

Hell, lets just go back to third edition and play ambush and mud fight all over again.

Like I said, I like the first two missions. They are an improvement over last years. They are a little bland (I much prefer the Adepticon system of missions), but matches the philosophy of the tournament. The last mission looks like they where intentionally trying to minimalize the so called "dreaded leaf blower list" (which shouldn't be dreaded anyways).

Aard Boyz is all about the cavalcade the crazy, at least to me. Mission three detracts from that, and that is probably my biggest complaint.

Oh well, Aard boyz noooooo....

Clthomps wrote:I just thought of a way to win the Green tide vs my DE.


First turn I will move incredibly slow, and shoot all his kans and a squad to death. 4 KP for me. Then when he starts his move I will ask him to remeasure every model. by the time thats done the time will be up and I will be Victorious!

Or you could just table him.

Horrorfexes and disintegrators spell doom for foot-slogging orks, and if you run a wych cult and get a +1WS unit or two (or make Lelith +1WS) you'll also be in good shape. Remember that fearless units are immune to pinning and morale tests, but not to leadership checks!

When I read the missions I initially thought to try kicking down my KP count by putting in slower units...but then decided that I like my list the way it is, and if I'm a good general, I should be able to do just fine. Foot-slogging lists don't scare me (except for foot-slogging IG who are all stubborn, have grenades, and counter-attack); I anticipate that round 3 I'll be facing another mech player.

Hm so whoever gets the noob first mission will have a huge advantage.. Last year the missions were good at GW realized that capturing 4+ objectives OVER your opponent to score a massacre is a bad idea

I dont care who I play, I can guarantee you wont get 4 objectives over me.. Yet a noob just gets demolished and gives up a massacre when you should be able to prevent that EASILY

Ah well.. Last years missions were awesome.. I sorta expected more of the same

Guess the chimeras being back ordered wasnt a bad thing :p Could still play blob squads or just redesign a space wolf or BA list

Mahu wrote:
A mission should never penalize you automatically just for what you take. That should be the first rule of good mission design. Missions provide challenge, missions can make players think a little harder then just going for tabling the opponent.

Why not? As long as the hatred is spread around, I really don't have a problem with it. Trying to make the missions equal just makes them bland and boring as crap. Once you start trying to make missions challenging and different, you're going to get some mismatches.

I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Clthomps wrote:I just thought of a way to win the Green tide vs my DE.


First turn I will move incredibly slow, and shoot all his kans and a squad to death. 4 KP for me. Then when he starts his move I will ask him to remeasure every model. by the time thats done the time will be up and I will be Victorious!

Or you could just table him.

Horrorfexes and disintegrators spell doom for foot-slogging orks, and if you run a wych cult and get a +1WS unit or two (or make Lelith +1WS) you'll also be in good shape. Remember that fearless units are immune to pinning and morale tests, but not to leadership checks!

When I read the missions I initially thought to try kicking down my KP count by putting in slower units...but then decided that I like my list the way it is, and if I'm a good general, I should be able to do just fine. Foot-slogging lists don't scare me (except for foot-slogging IG who are all stubborn, have grenades, and counter-attack); I anticipate that round 3 I'll be facing another mech player.

This will be my plan, but against large hordes without movement trays I doubt I can table him in 2-3 rounds....

Centurian99 wrote:

Mahu wrote:
A mission should never penalize you automatically just for what you take. That should be the first rule of good mission design. Missions provide challenge, missions can make players think a little harder then just going for tabling the opponent.

Why not? As long as the hatred is spread around, I really don't have a problem with it. Trying to make the missions equal just makes them bland and boring as crap. Once you start trying to make missions challenging and different, you're going to get some mismatches.

The hatred is most definitely not spread around in this situation, if it was I would have less of a problem with it.

There are many ways to make missions varied and challenging without resorting to hurting someone based on their list design. Between different ways you can do objectives, kill points, victory points, and any even breaking out table quarters, and put that into a tiered system like Adepticon you maximize the difficulty without intentionally hurting somebodies playstyle.

This is a giant FU to all the new BA codex players. Thank god I have four armies.

Sarigar wrote:I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

I have a friend who brought gazzy, big mek, 6 squads of 30 boyz, snikrot, lootas, and storm boyz last year. All painted, all games went at least 5 turns.

Hm so vehicle squadrons and blob squads of guard will be insane in the last mission.. Just avoid getting tabled and you can prob auto win vs any mech period

Centurian99 wrote:
Why not? As long as the hatred is spread around, I really don't have a problem with it. Trying to make the missions equal just makes them bland and boring as crap. Once you start trying to make missions challenging and different, you're going to get some mismatches.

This missions would be fine if they all had some slight disadvantage towards a different type of army each mission is fine with skill can be overcome. But this is one mission that gives a penalization to an extreme. Simply saying "too bad" or "adapt" is a very poor excuse and that line of thinking is what made the gladiator missions what they are. I enjoy good games but I hate one sided games even if I am winning because it is not fun at all. I enjoy good competition and I agree with your views on making missions challenging but I would rather make it challenging to score a massacre than to make it a struggle to even tie.

But GW has supplied the missions so it is what it is.

The first two missions favor mobile armies, so it's good odds that the game three top tables will be close KP wise. Bring what you have or make something new, you takes your chances and rolls the dice...

What better way for GW US to sell more infantry boxes, right?

Sarigar wrote:I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

Last time I checked being fully painted was not in the rule packet. The only thing they mention is that you have to use citadel models and any conversions need to be 60% GW parts.

Dave_Fay wrote:for mission 3 do Drops pods, Demons or anything that deepstrikes count as 3?

no i dont think deepstrikers count demons would count if they have wings or can move over 12"

Clthomps wrote:

Sarigar wrote:I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

Last time I checked being fully painted was not in the rule packet. The only thing they mention is that you have to use citadel models and any conversions need to be 60% GW parts.

60% now? Guess ill bring my gram weighing device! MR JUDGE this according to the weight of the model it is only 57% percentage GW parts.. It must be disqualified!

Seriously ive asked this before.. how do you judge such a thing?

Wow I'm really questioning the 2nd hammerhead vs 2nd broadside debate for mission 3. Still as Tau I'm sitting at 24 KP for mission 3. Devilfish are tricky to kill if played right and can still beat on infantry. Only running 4 troops makes getting maximum win on mission one hard though hmm.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A friend of mine is running MSU Deffcopters with his orks, he will get gakked on last mission.

Kharnflakes wrote:

Dave_Fay wrote:for mission 3 do Drops pods, Demons or anything that deepstrikes count as 3?

no i dont think deepstrikers count demons would count if they have wings or can move over 12"

Over 6" you mean.

Let's make a quick list:

***Marines***
Assault Marines
Units with Jump Packs
Libbies with GoI
Rhinos
Razorbacks
Land Raiders
Whirlwinds
Vindicators
Jetbikes
Bikes
Units on Bikes
Land Speeders
Predators
Libbies with Wings of Sanguinus
Libby Dread with Wings of Sanguinus
Stormraven Gunships

***Orks***
Battlewagons
Trukks
Trakks
Stormboyz
Nob Bikers
Warbikers
Deffkoptas
Looted Wagon
Warbosses on Bikes
Weirdboyz/Warpheadz

***Chaos***
Raptors
Units with Jump Packs
Chaos Bikers
Units on Bikes
Predators
Rhinos
Land Raiders
Vindicators
Winged Daemon Princes
Units on Daemonic Steeds (except the Palanquin of Nurgle)

***Eldar***
Wave Serpents
Falcons
Vypers
Jetbikes
Shining Spears
Swooping Hawks
Warp Spiders
Fire Prisms
Autarchs armed w/Warp Jump Generators or Swooping Hawk Wings

***Daemons***
Bloodthirster
Lord of Change
Fateweaver
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc/Chariot
Herald of Slaanesh on Mount/Chariot
Flamers of Tzeentch
Fiends of Slaanesh
Flesh Hounds of Khorne
Seekers of Slaanesh
Screamers of Tzeentch
Furies
Winged Daemon Princes

***Tyranids***
Raveners
Gargoyles
Harpies
Tyranid Shrikes
Sky-Slasher Swarms
Parasite of Mortrex
Winged Hive Tyrants

***Tau***
Devilfish
Piranhas
Vespids
Hammerheads
Skyrays

***Daemonhunters/Witchhunters***
Seraphim
Units with Jetpacks
Saint Celestine
Immolators
Exorcists
Rhinos
Chimeras
Land Raiders
Arco-Flagellants
Daemonhosts

***Necrons***
Necron Destroyers
Necron Heavy Destroyers
Lords with Destroyer Bodies
Wraiths
Scarab Swarms

***Imperial Guard***
Chimeras
Rough Riders
Hellhounds (and their Variants)
Valkyries
Vendettas
Leman Russ Battle Tanks (and their Variants)
Hydras
Ordnance Batteries (Basilisks, Medusas, etc.)
Manticores
Deathstrike Missile Launchers

***Dark Eldar***
Raiders
Ravagers
Hellions
Scourges
Talos


All of these things are worth 3 KPs. Correct me if I've missed any (especially Dark Eldar - it's the only Codex I don't own).

Why make a list like that? Here is an easier list

Anything non-infantry non-flying mc.. Thats basically what the rule means (yes there are a few exceptions)

My all Ork bike list isn't so bad. It's only 21points. 15x deff koptas, 10x nob bikers, 12x warbikers and 2x hq's on bikes.

Kirasu wrote:Why make a list like that? Here is an easier list

Anything non-infantry non-flying mc.. Thats basically what the rule means (yes there are a few exceptions)

Because lists are easier to look at quickly for reference than is just thinking "anything non-infantry, non-flying and a MC." Well, except Monoliths, and arco-flagellants, and nearly all Tau units.

Sorry if my list offended you in some way.

Oh no, they nerfed the 60 Fury army that I was going to bring!

arco flagellants? if I saw those in 'ard boyz hell Id give him a free kill point.. You didnt offend me at all, Im just saying even with those exceptions.. as i said there are a few.. Its still drastically faster to just list the exceptions heh

Already thought I'd pass on the local qualifier.

Now I'm really glad I didn't bother to buy anything to optimize either my Blood Angels or mech IG.

Not even showing up to watch foot horde armies -- or worse, foot Marines -- take the win. Note that even the objective mission promotes foot lists, given diagonal deployment. Maybe next year GW can just mandate a trench system and a no man's land and take 40K tactics to their logical conclusion.

***Dark Eldar***
Raiders
Ravagers
Hellions
Scourges
Talos


All of these things are worth 3 KPs. Correct me if I've missed any (especially Dark Eldar - it's the only Codex I don't own).

Yup, you missed every single HQ unit, jetbikes, and any unit that has combat drugs.

Its easer to list the units that do not count:

Warriors
Talos
Groq
mandrakes

Where are people getting the idea that tabling your opponent is a massacre? Perhaps in some tournaments that is the case but the rulebook merely states you "win" and there is no real mention of it in the 'ard boyz rules

If you have 1 scoring unit left and you table your opponent in the first mission, there is no possible way you can have 4 more objectives than your opponent.. He has 0, so you can only get 1.. Which is still a win

Sorta silly to assume that if both you and your opponent are down to 1 model the person who dies first gets massacred.. Its just he is wiped out. The rule is to prevent people with like 4 Kps getting wiped out and still beating someone, nothing more

Id check the score sheets of people at the tournament for such.. interesting interpretations

Here's a question if a ork army runs ghazzy would the whole army be worth 3kps in missin 3 since with his auto 6" waagh the whole army would be able to move over 6" in a movement phase?

There's one thing that no one seems to have brought up, and which is at the core of why I hate the design of the third mission.

By explicitly penalizing mechanized armies (make no mistake, this is the obvious intention of mission 3's design) this is just a subtle way of enforcing comp in what is supposed to be the no-comp "hard" tournament. As Mahu pointed out, no one likes getting reamed based on what they bring to the table, but that's exactly what this is: being put at a huge disadvantage for bringing a competitive army to the table. They've done similar things in the past with their modified killpoints missions in 'Ard Boyz, but never anything so over-the-top.

The tyranid list I was planning on bringing and still am going to bring only has 27 kill points

Clthomps wrote:

Sarigar wrote:I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

Last time I checked being fully painted was not in the rule packet. The only thing they mention is that you have to use citadel models and any conversions need to be 60% GW parts.

Sarigar was making the point that with a painted army it is generally easier to differentiate squads, and therefore it speeds play.

Thankfully I'm not playing this year, but if I was it would be bad. 55 KP all together for my list (modified leafblower). I could destroy every enemy unit and still risk losing.

Well, I suppose that's not too bad for my Mech Ork army. I have 2 Battlewagons, 2 trukks, 1 Warboss on a Bike, and a Nob Biker squad, plus 2-3 Fast attack slots. I believe my grand total comes to 34-37 Kps. Which seems in the safe zone, or at least well below average.


@ Corbett. In regards to Ghazzy, what on earth are you talking about? A Waagh occurs in the Shooting phase, not movement and it wouldn't allow you to move MORE Than 6", it just allows you to take a 6" move instead of rolling a D6. I'm just wondering if the people you play with have some weird misinterpretation of the rules.

If you added the running to the calculation than EVERY single model would be worth 3 Kp. It's only for units that can move more than 6" in the movement phase.

Clthomps wrote:

Sarigar wrote:I'm still stuck on the notion a Green Tide will actually be played at 2500 points. Very few people can even hope to play fast enough with that many Orks. Add in the likelyhood of having a PAINTED Green Tide, it will be even harder to finish a game. I can only imagine the headache of playing with/against 200+ plastic colored models all mixed together (remember, there will be 1-2 KFF forcing units to be a bit close together).

Mission 3 will be a separating factor among all the 2-0 finishers that day. Good players simply figure it out.

Last time I checked being fully painted was not in the rule packet. The only thing they mention is that you have to use citadel models and any conversions need to be 60% GW parts.

You're correct, but I never stated there was a painting requirement. My point was that painting can make it a whole lot easier telling units apart. Green tide (or plastic colored tide) just gets horribly confusing and time consuming. Multi unit assaults with an unpainted green tide.....uggggh.

Never said it was impossible for Green Tide to be played and actually finish a game. However, I've witnessed many of these types of games and getting through only 3 turns is not uncommon. Many players simply don't play fast enough to handle this many models in a 2500 point game. Having an unpainted green tide will even slow the game down even more.

And the whining continues...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirasu wrote:Where are people getting the idea that tabling your opponent is a massacre? Perhaps in some tournaments that is the case but the rulebook merely states you "win" and there is no real mention of it in the 'ard boyz rules

If you have 1 scoring unit left and you table your opponent in the first mission, there is no possible way you can have 4 more objectives than your opponent.. He has 0, so you can only get 1.. Which is still a win

Sorta silly to assume that if both you and your opponent are down to 1 model the person who dies first gets massacred.. Its just he is wiped out. The rule is to prevent people with like 4 Kps getting wiped out and still beating someone, nothing more

Id check the score sheets of people at the tournament for such.. interesting interpretations

Its pretty accepted tournament practice that if you table your opponent, you automatically get max points.

Besides, in game 1, a sufficiently large squad could hold all five objectives, so you're incorrect there.

Kirasu wrote:Where are people getting the idea that tabling your opponent is a massacre? Perhaps in some tournaments that is the case but the rulebook merely states you "win" and there is no real mention of it in the 'ard boyz rules

If you have 1 scoring unit left and you table your opponent in the first mission, there is no possible way you can have 4 more objectives than your opponent.. He has 0, so you can only get 1.. Which is still a win

Sorta silly to assume that if both you and your opponent are down to 1 model the person who dies first gets massacred.. Its just he is wiped out. The rule is to prevent people with like 4 Kps getting wiped out and still beating someone, nothing more

Id check the score sheets of people at the tournament for such.. interesting interpretations

The rules do simply state that you win. You win, opponent loses. It doesn't say that you get a small win, or a medium win, or a large win....but that you win and take the field. In every major event I've been a part of, a win translates into full points if you table your opponent.

If you disagree with that, exactly where would you have the line be drawn? What justification do you have for not giving out full points to the winner?

The rulebook is very clear that if you table your opponent, you win, regardless of mission objectives or other factors.

Given that it isn't the Standard Missions though, I would suggest contacting your TO to make sure he has a functioning Brain Cell and that a Wipeout! = Max Points for you.

Of course, some guy hiding a single model away from you for a couple turns is still a (very lame) way that they can pull off a massacre on you.

Kirasu wrote:
60% now? Guess ill bring my gram weighing device! MR JUDGE this according to the weight of the model it is only 57% percentage GW parts.. It must be disqualified!

Seriously ive asked this before.. how do you judge such a thing?

It's not that hard. Seriously, I can look at a model, and know if the base part of the model is a GW kit or not. What this does is stops someone from using an Ultraforge daemon, a warmachine warcaster, or a Tamiya WWII halftrack as the core of the model, swapping the weapons for bolt pistols, and then claiming that they should be allowed.

Danny Internets wrote:
There's one thing that no one seems to have brought up, and which is at the core of why I hate the design of the third mission.

By explicitly penalizing mechanized armies (make no mistake, this is the obvious intention of mission 3's design) this is just a subtle way of enforcing comp in what is supposed to be the no-comp "hard" tournament. As Mahu pointed out, no one likes getting reamed based on what they bring to the table, but that's exactly what this is: being put at a huge disadvantage for bringing a competitive army to the table. They've done similar things in the past with their modified killpoints missions in 'Ard Boyz, but never anything so over-the-top.

If you're correct in your assertion than the competitive armies will all be mechanized, then this mission doesn't change anything. The expectation would be that your army, and your opponent's army would both be mechanized, and therefore both would be giving up more kill points.

This mission isn't the end of the world as you know it. If you believe that going mechanized gives you the best chance to win missions one and two, then do you really think that running a footslogger list is going to overcome those advantages because of one mission? I don't. Furthermore, if you are correct, that fully-meched out armies are so powerful, then if you bring one, you shouldn't even worry about playing a non-mech army in the final round. In your world, the mech approach is the only competitive way to play, so why would you even consider that a non-mech army would make it to the top tables?

I'm not sold on the idea that all meched-out armies are the "most competitive" though. In my world, the army you know how to play the best is the most competitive army you can bring. I don't think this mission is nearly as unreasonable as some of the missions in previous years that essentially handed the win to the person who won the dice-off.

Furthermore, you know about this mission ahead of time, and have plenty of time to change your list. If it really does change the dynamics of the game, and you're such a good, competitive player, come up with the response list. In a way, having the mission that challenges the standard assumptions of list design allows the actual good players to build their lists knowing what they will need. The only people this penalizes are the fake-good-players, the wannabes, who haven't an original thought in their heads and rely on the internet to tell them what to play. In my opinion, that's a good thing.

But, for anyone who falls into that second category, and wants to be told what to play to get through all these missions, it's a kan-wall list with a lot of lootas and a lot of footsloggers.

As a noob, I could use some "splain to me like im 2" action.

First of all, I'm confused about the Special Rules. Why are there normal traits like Infiltrate listed there and what critical document did I not read that would have deignorantified me?

Ork wise, am I getting that Koptas, truk and wagon transported boyz and nobz with a full complement of stormboyz is hosed?

I think Tyranids featuring Tervigons are the best for dealing with this set of missions.

If you're correct in your assertion than the competitive armies will all be mechanized, then this mission doesn't change anything. The expectation would be that your army, and your opponent's army would both be mechanized, and therefore both would be giving up more kill points.

Logic fail. Stating that mechanized armies are competitive is not the same as saying one must be mechanized in order to be competitive. There are plenty of hybrid mech competitive builds (IG does this extremely well) and also non-mech competitive builds (see Space Wolves).

This mission isn't the end of the world as you know it. If you believe that going mechanized gives you the best chance to win missions one and two, then do you really think that running a footslogger list is going to overcome those advantages because of one mission? I don't. Furthermore, if you are correct, that fully-meched out armies are so powerful, then if you bring one, you shouldn't even worry about playing a non-mech army in the final round. In your world, the mech approach is the only competitive way to play, so why would you even consider that a non-mech army would make it to the top tables?

Please find where I claimed that playing mech is the only competitive way to play. I'll wait. Hint: you won't find it because I didn't say it. Any why didn't I say it? Because it's not true. See previous paragraph.

Furthermore, you know about this mission ahead of time, and have plenty of time to change your list. If it really does change the dynamics of the game, and you're such a good, competitive player, come up with the response list.

You realize the tournament is next weekend, right? Don't be obtuse. Writing a list takes minutes. Obtaining and building models takes a wee bit longer.

Danny Internets wrote:
Logic fail. Stating that mechanized armies are competitive is not the same as saying one must be mechanized in order to be competitive. There are plenty of hybrid mech competitive builds (IG does this extremely well) and also non-mech competitive builds (see Space Wolves).

If there is a logic failure here, it is on your part. You claimed, in your prior post:

Danny Internets wrote:... but that's exactly what this is: being put at a huge disadvantage for bringing a competitive army to the table.

Gerneral consensus: the 3rd mission penalizes mechanized armies.
Your assertion: the 3rd mission penalizes competitive armies.

My response was not making this inference, it was responding to your claim. But now that we've got that out of the way...

Please find where I claimed that playing mech is the only competitive way to play. I'll wait. Hint: you won't find it because I didn't say it. Any why didn't I say it? Because it's not true. See previous paragraph.

So you're taking back your statement that the 3rd mission penalizes competitive armies? Good. It doesn't. It penalizes highly mobile armies. If you believe that there are competitive armies that aren't highly mobile and that won't suffer in game three, play them.

You realize the tournament is next weekend, right?

No, I live in a cave...

Don't be obtuse. Writing a list takes minutes. Obtaining and building models takes a wee bit longer.

If you were a competitive player, you'd figure it out, it's not that hard. It's not like they need to be painted or anything. I built and painted (and won best-painted awards with) a 5000 point army in a week last year. Obtaining models? You're playing this tournament at a game store, right? Go spend some money in their shop, you'll have stuff the same day. Get next-day shipping from GWs site. Then you've got all week's evenings to build them. It's 'ard boyz, you don't need to file mold lines, or drill bolter barrels. Clip parts, glue parts, done.

You're just making excuses. If this mission is that bad, and you're the competitive player you claim to be, do what it takes to make the army that will win the tournament with the up-front knowledge of what the missions are. Whining about it isn't competitive, either before or after. You know what's coming, you have the time to react.

jbunny wrote:Let's see it hoses ever transport in the game, It kills Blood Angels completely, and it makes no sense what so ever.

agreed I have a feeling that I am going to get stomped into the ground in this mission

Redbeard, it helps to actually read the posts you're quoting. Again, I will repeat:

The 3rd mission penalizes mechanized armies. Mechanized armies are competitive. That does not mean that mechanized armies are the only competitive builds. I'm sorry you have such trouble grasping this simple concept. Continue to believe it, if you like.

If you were a competitive player, you'd figure it out, it's not that hard. It's not like they need to be painted or anything. I built and painted (and won best-painted awards with) a 5000 point army in a week last year. Obtaining models? You're playing this tournament at a game store, right? Go spend some money in their shop, you'll have stuff the same day. Get next-day shipping from GWs site. Then you've got all week's evenings to build them. It's 'ard boyz, you don't need to file mold lines, or drill bolter barrels. Clip parts, glue parts, done.

Sorry, but I have no interest in spending hundreds of dollars to build a new army in less than a week, and frankly it's unreasonable to expect anyone to do so. Some of us value our time and money. I'll still be bringing roughly the same list as I've been building and practicing with for 2 months now. I'm not about to bend over backwards to abide by some comp nonsense built into the missions.

Danny Internets wrote:Redbeard, it helps to actually read the posts you're quoting. Again, I will repeat:

The 3rd mission penalizes mechanized armies. Mechanized armies are competitive. That does not mean that mechanized armies are the only competitive builds. I'm sorry you have such trouble grasping this simple concept. Continue to believe it, if you like.

I did read your post. I'm not the one having trouble expressing myself. Did you, or did you not claim that the 3rd mission penalizes you for bringing a competitive army to the table?

Just to get this straight, your current assertion is that all mechanized armies, and some non-mechanized armies are competitive?

The third mission doesn't penalize competitive armies. It penalizes mobile armies. Heck, now you're even claiming that all mechanized armies are competitive. (I bolded this in your statement above), and I don't even know where to begin to tell you how wrong that is. I think you can bring a non-competitive mechanized build and be penalized just as much.

Sorry, but I have no interest in spending hundreds of dollars to build a new army in less than a week, and frankly it's unreasonable to expect anyone to do so. Some of us value our time and money. I'll still be bringing roughly the same list as I've been building and practicing with for 2 months now. I'm not about to bend over backwards to abide by some comp nonsense built into the missions.

Nope, instead you'll use it as a springboard for why 'ard boys doesn't count as a real tournament because it had comp-esque missions and use this as a conveniently pre-written excuse if you don't make the cut.

The third mission doesn't penalize competitive armies. It penalizes mobile armies.

Mechanized armies aren't mobile? What kind of ridiculous nonsense are you spouting?

Nope, instead you'll use it as a springboard for why 'ard boys doesn't count as a real tournament because it had comp-esque missions and use this as a conveniently pre-written excuse if you don't make the cut.

Well, you know the old saying about assumptions. Keep up the internet tough guy attitude though--we're all very, very impressed.

Where did Redbeard write that mechanized armies aren't mobile?

Also, I don't assume the Wipeout rule is in effect unless the T.O. says it is.

Danny Internets wrote:

The third mission doesn't penalize competitive armies. It penalizes mobile armies.

Mechanized armies aren't mobile? What kind of ridiculous nonsense are you spouting?

We both agree that the 3rd mission penalizes mobile armies. We both agree that mechanized armies are mobile, and that as a result, the 3rd mission must also therefore punish mechanized armies.

You are making the mistake, however, of claiming that it penalizes competitive armies. You outright claimed "Mechanized armies are competitive." in your last post. And that's simply not true. You are claiming that by virtue of being mechanized, an army is automatically competitive.

I can prove that being mechanized, alone, does not make an army competitive. See the following list:

Dark Angels, 2500 points:
Company master
Chaplian
6x 10 tac squad in rhino
3x 10 veterans in rhino
2x 10 devastators in rhino

It's a mechanized army. Automatically competitive? Not at all. It has no weapon upgrades at all, no specials, no heavies, no CC. Just men in rhinos. But it's mechanized.

The 3rd mission punishes that army. It punishes it for being mechanized. It punishes it for being mobile. What it doesn't do it punish it for being competitive.

The 3rd mission does not punish competitive armies - the strength of the build is not a factor in whether the 3rd mission hurts the army or not. It punishes non-competitive mobile armies and it does not punish competitive foot-slogging armies.

Competitive and Mobile are completely independent factors. Some mobile armies are competitive, some non-mobile armies are competitive. Some mobile armies are not competitive, and some non-mobile armies are not competitive. That's what you seem to be having trouble grasping. "Mechanized armies are competitive." - your statement is simply not true.

Do you get it yet? You stated: "that's exactly what this is: being put at a huge disadvantage for bringing a competitive army to the table". And that is incorrect. No one is being put at a disadvantage for bringing a competitive army. People are being put at a disadvantage for bringing mobile armies, which may or not be competitive.

It should be interesting for me, my Tau are actually not that affected by this. I still *only* give up 18 KPs in the third mission.

Of course, if everyone knee jerks and takes horde lists, I'm screwed.

Preach on, brother Redbeard!

People who are whining about the 3rd mission really need to grow a pair. Lets try to look at the missions in total and see what it looks like.

Mission 1:
1. 5 objectives, with the need to hold multiple objectives to gain max points rewarding armies with lots of scoring units.
2. <removed because I failed geometry.>
3. The bonus modifiers are pretty straightforward, but actually work against having large numbers of scoring units.
4. Definitely rewards an army with mobility - moving forward and seizing objectives, especially since the game length is pre-determined to make turn 6 objective grabs possible.

Mission 2:
1. Victory points here...all the old 4th ed VP metagaming comes into play (some of which is directly contrary to the usual 5th ed build paradigms.
2. Battle point modifiers for table quarters...although if I'm reading the mission correctly, ONLY scoring units count for holding/contesting quarters, and you just need more scoring units in a quarter than your opponent to control/contest. Definitely rewards the side with more scoring units. Mobile/static is pretty much a wash here, although I think the edge goes to mobility, especially for the bonus conditions.

Mission 3: The one people are whining about.
1. Heavily weighted against mobility in a mobile v. non-mobile matchup. Aside from that, its just like any other kill point mission, in that armies with lots of units are disadvantaged.

Feels like the whole tournament is skewed now to armies that can A) take A LOT of scoring units for mission 1 and 2.. and then make a shooty army without the need for fast moving units

Hmm is there an army out there that has massive amounts of scoring units and can shoot a ton? ?? i wonder who it is!

Feels like year 2 all over again with the over reliance on needing tons of troop choices when half the armies have horrible ones.. Last year felt more tactical with only needing to win, not play a codex that can spam the best troops

Oh well, Ive gotten to the finals every year and 2 semi final prize armies.. Just adapt! Even if I think they dropped the ball compared to last year

Kirasu wrote:

Clthomps wrote:

Last time I checked being fully painted was not in the rule packet. The only thing they mention is that you have to use citadel models and any conversions need to be 60% GW parts.

60% now? Guess ill bring my gram weighing device! MR JUDGE this according to the weight of the model it is only 57% percentage GW parts.. It must be disqualified!

Seriously ive asked this before.. how do you judge such a thing?

I wonder how many `Nid Spods that people have made are 60% GW parts...

Better disqualify them then.. The anti-fun police are on your tail and Gw will ARREST all store owners who do not enforce the policies mandated by Lord Jervis

Oh, wait, I know! I'll just grab a bunch of bitz I don't use and fill up the inside of my MegaBloks Spods with them.

Oh no! My unbeatable mech army that takes not thought to play might have to use tactics to win!


#1. It is a free tournament, play what you want.

#2. Mech armies are a crutch, and you should be able to make an army with or without them.

#3. In my experience it is hard to kill chimeras (which is why mech IG is so good). If you lose some chimeras so what? On the other side of the table they will have units that give up 3KP also, and just take them out.

Ill give you a bonesinger model if you make a mech guard player cry with foot eldar

You are making the mistake, however, of claiming that it penalizes competitive armies. You outright claimed "Mechanized armies are competitive." in your last post. And that's simply not true. You are claiming that by virtue of being mechanized, an army is automatically competitive.

Congratulations on your wonderful strawman. Now, when we put this discussion back in context, in almost every case a mechanized version of of an army will be more powerful (and thus, more competitive) than a non-mechanized version. Take your DA list for example and remove the mech components, add in more infantry. Did it get better or worse?

2/3 of the normal missions in 40k are objective-based. Mobility makes your army more capable at capturing and contesting objectives. Mechanized armies offer mobility. This is rudimentary stuff that you already know, so I'm not sure why you insist on being argumentative on this point.

Claiming that mechanized armies don't provide a competitive edge because you can still build a bad mechanized list is like saying the IG codex isn't good because it's possible to make a bad army out of it.

Anyo e read the bonus points for mission 3?
The first one us funny

I got a BA list I think will surprise people and put them on the defensive.. No way im abandoning all my fast stuff for 1 mission but I did add a healthy portion of foot sloggers

Hte 3rd mission is basically an uber big FU to everyone that downloaded the leaf blows army list. Must suck if you bought lots of those chimeroohs.

G

Chimeras are strong on their own.

Leafblower is only strong if you have magic dice that let you go first every time.

I have no regrets to be bringing a strong mech guard list, I just hope I don't get cheesed out by a guy hiding half a unit the whole game in the third mission.

The funny thing is that everyone is so fixated on mission #3, that they do see the other interesting things about the missions.

For example: there is no Dawn of War style deployment.

That means that the Space Wolves with their Long Fangs get to set up on the board every mission.

It also means that you can ram 9 carnifexes down your opponent’s throat, and you do not have to worry about them starting in reserve.

In a world. Based on the utter hell everything is just another card game.

Blackmoor wrote:The funny thing is that everyone is so fixated on mission #3, that they do see the other interesting things about the missions.

For example: there is no Dawn of War style deployment.

That means that the Space Wolves with their Long Fangs get to set up on the board every mission.

It also means that you can ram 9 carnifexes down your opponent’s throat, and you do not have to worry about them starting in reserve.

No Night Fight either, which makes my Necrons sad.

Yes this year is very good for shooting armies

21 missle launcher, 60 grey-hunter footslogging wolves will probably win this year. Seems that way. Plenty of deadliness for the first two missions, not many kill points for the third one.

I am running alot of battle wagons and trukks. Trukks for sure will pop, don't mind it though. Battle wagons are a different story. Yea I have alot of kill points; doesn't mean I am giving them up without a fight. WAAAGH!!!!

Spellbound wrote:21 missle launcher, 60 grey-hunter footslogging wolves will probably win this year. Seems that way. Plenty of deadliness for the first two missions, not many kill points for the third one.

AV14 is a curse to a fully missile launcher list. Double and triple land raider lists don't give up many killpoints over a 21 missile launcher list EITHER, and can shrug off all those missile launchers. Battlewagons can cause trouble as well.

Except each squad has 3 meltas also

Come close. Very close with the meltas. That's what they are all about.

G

Blackmoor wrote:The funny thing is that everyone is so fixated on mission #3, that they do see the other interesting things about the missions.

For example: there is no Dawn of War style deployment.

That means that the Space Wolves with their Long Fangs get to set up on the board every mission.

It also means that you can ram 9 carnifexes down your opponent’s throat, and you do not have to worry about them starting in reserve.

Single most intelligent observation brought up in this thread. I strongly suspect that deep strike will not count for the 3KP qualification, so I would guess the Wolf players who rotate out Razorspam for pods will dominate. I can see Kan Wall Green Tide and certain nid builds doing well, also, but not the 9 fex one. Too many wolf players out there to not draw the JOTWW at some point. Hybrid Guard armies will do pretty damn well, too, since its easier to punk Rhinos than Chimeras, giving them the upper hand in that urinating for distance contest.

Lack of Dawn of War is pretty massive, though. It opens up some options that people normally avoid, like certain artilery units.

GW saw the direction of the meta game in the US, then threw a twist and monkey wrench in the game. They watch the threads and army list generated for other events, then try make rules to detour them for Ard Boyz to make things a little more interesting for the competitive players. The competitive player should see this as a challenge, when the player with lesser skills should see a hugh hurdle. How to make my list work even when the biggest monkey wrench gets thrown in my way. I am up to the challenge to see how I do with my list probaly only adding another troop selection.

Ran my Tau vs Orks today in mission two as a practice, really hard to get the massacre points I think. Well actually if I would of actually killed the deff dread instead of black knighting it despite 5 rail gun hits in the same turn would of hit the massacre.

I noticed no Night Fighting rules, so now all my bsf will come out and add another kroot or two.

Another huge impact is the fixed 6 turns. If you can play through each game, certain armies actually can do quite well in two out of 3 missions with fixed turns.

Sarigar wrote:Another huge impact is the fixed 6 turns. If you can play through each game, certain armies actually can do quite well in two out of 3 missions with fixed turns.

They had a fixed 6 rounds in all three parts of the tournament last year as well.

Wow... maybe I'll skip this one this year. All I have is Mech IG or Jump Pack BA, so either way I'm screwed in the 3rd mission. I don't like the idea of going into a tournament and being at a severe disadvantage to the ork players (of which there are many in my area).

Missions 1 and 2 make it real hard to get the massacre, which is how it should be I think.

Spellbound wrote:Missions 1 and 2 make it real hard to get the massacre, which is how it should be I think.

yup in my list I loose a single troop choice, I can't get it.

Don't forget the congo line. A single Scoring Unit can hold all five objectives if it's big enough to stretch out and come with-in 3" of all of them.

Aduro wrote:Don't forget the congo line. A single Scoring Unit can hold all five objectives if it's big enough to stretch out and come with-in 3" of all of them.

I saw a unit of 20 plague bearers hold on to 3 objectives in a tournament once.

Well in all three missions, I plan on essentially sacrificing this large unit of terminators I have. They can't do much as far as mission objectives go in any of the missions, so their job is to take out as much as possible and not survive till the end.

Only 1 mission really needs scoring units.. The 2nd mission is only for bonus points.. Strange to have 2 kill missions as it just benefits all assault or all gunlines even more ..

I didn't realize that until now that you mentioned it. You only need a good number of scoring units the first mission.

G

Okay so I now have played the missions. Chose my Eldar to take over Salamanders based on the composition I saw over the weekend at stores.

Quick note on mission 3, RAW applies here too, the unit must be able to move over 6" in any single phase of the game. Deepstrike units that have an armor value, while counting at moving specifically at cruising speed do not in fact actually move unless you count scatter.

In playing mission 3 against a leaf blower variant, run by a player expected to do quite well at the FLGS the extra points didn't matter much. Without the extra points I beat him 11 to 2 in kill points. I ran it more as VP denial and focused on the exact same targets for any KP mission. Either way would have been a win. I will face a Space Puppy and Emo Twilight marine lists this week too. Expect to do exactly the same.

Went with Eldar for the S6 weapon spam and put the old shake lock on Valk squads. Being Eldar taught me that lesson many times.

Good players will win with the lists they are used to, everyone else will lose and blame missions.

Honestly these missions were very boring to play, mission 1 was my favorite for some reason.

Emo twilight marine lists? I didn't know that the Dark Angels would be making an appearance...

What kind of eldar did you use? Mechdar or footslog?

Lol, I guess you can cover two lists with one title. I'll just go with twilight, I expect they secretly make love to wolves.

Anyway, its a mixed list, that day I ran two wave serpents filled with fire dragons and a falcon and a jetbike squad.

Actually list I will have 2-3 wave serpents, jetbike squad, and footies.

Also haven't played with pathfinders in a while, I had two squads, 3 Dire avenger squads, and the jetbikes in mission 1 and will take the same, those +2 to cover saves gave me 3 easy objectives.

**

Thanks anyways.

**

Mission 3 is ok if you have multiple strong armies and can metagame the tournament. The reason Mission 3 is total bs is it penalizes new and casual players who either don't know about the missions till day of or only have one army with barely 2500 points as it is. Also people buy models to get ready for these events, it is wrong to create a mission that penalizes them for their recent purchase.

New and casual players should come to Ard Boyz and enjoy their games, but shouldn't expect to win the event, regardless of mission 3. I do have multiple armies but I'm on an ork batlewagon kick right now and I'm not changing up for advantage, even though mission 3 will be tougher for my orks than say foot marines, foot guard, foot eldar, or nids.

Most players at the local level have one or maybe two armies, and a couple of folks have multiple armies, but everyone should play what they are comfortable with. Odds are pretty good that your third round opponent's KP's will be close to or higher than yours anyway. Play skill and experience is still the biggest deciding factor.

I don't really care if the missions are fair to new/casual players. I am not their champion. I am just stating that it is a mistake to write a wild mission like this that will create terriblly skewed match ups and really piss these players off.

It would be nice if the missions had some sort of uniform templating. These missions are written very poorly. I hope they are rewritten this week.

Here are some problems.

The victory condition in mission 2 is ambiguous, it says the victor is determined by VPs and Table quarters. Does that mean you need both to win? Does controlling Table Quarters count for VPs? Or are they just pointlessly referring to the bonus points?

Only mission one adequately describes how you determine who goes first and who gets what table edge. We can assume things are business as usual but they are bringing VPs and Table Quarters back.

The third mission is ambiguous also. What a horrible objective. Now people are questioning whether Drop Pods give up 3 KPs. There will be lots of arguments about this on saturday.

People will be kicking about 25 to 40 KPs and you only need 7 more for a massacre. Doesn't sound like a massacre to me. My cat could write better missions. And he is stoooopid. He doesn't understand that when I repeatedly spray him with water that means get off the counter. I will offer his services to GW in about 11 months.

You know, when it is framed like that Shinkaze, it does seem kind or ridiculous that me losing 3 out of my 17 vehicles that I have been 'massacred'.

Sadly, even with these 'skewed' missions, the Ard Boyz is a very popular US tourney. And there have seemingly been numerous 'skewed' missions nearly every year.

Last year had solid missions each round.

G

Shinkaze wrote:

The victory condition in mission 2 is ambiguous, it says the victor is determined by VPs and Table quarters. Does that mean you need both to win? Does controlling Table Quarters count for VPs? Or are they just pointlessly referring to the bonus points?

How is this unclear...? The 'Victory Conditions' just tells you the general jist of the mission. The Calculate Results and Bonus points tell you how to actually win.

Ard Boyz wrote:
CALCULATE RESULTS
Massacre
1126 to 2500 victory points more than your opponent
Major Victory
751 to 1125 victory points more than your opponent
Minor Victory
376 to 750 victory points more than your opponent
Draw
Your total is within 375 victory points of your opponent.

Shinkaze wrote:
Only mission one adequately describes how you determine who goes first and who gets what table edge. We can assume things are business as usual but they are bringing VPs and Table Quarters back.

Mission 1 tells you how to deploy and determine 1st turn. Mission 2 and 3 clearly refer to the BRB to tell you exactly how to deploy and get first turn.

Shinkaze wrote:
The third mission is ambiguous also. What a horrible objective. Now people are questioning whether Drop Pods give up 3 KPs. There will be lots of arguments about this on saturday.

Agreed. This should be clarified sadly.

Deepstriking is not moving over 6 inches, although vehicles count as moving cruising speed.

Wait.....

It says that they "Count as moving at cruising speed" Not that they do move at cruising speed. Therefore drop pods never move more then 6" (remember that scatters are not considered movement), so drop pods give up 1 killpoint.

If you are playing Dark Eldar or jump pack Blood angels against foot IG or the green tide you won't win the 3rd game unless you clear the table, but that is assuming you are matched up against them in the 3rd game.

If you can go and hold 4 more objectives & have 1200 more victory points you should be sitting in a pretty good spot come game 3. If I'm facing a 10 killpoint list in game 3 I'll be a little discouraged, but I doubt that a list like that will be on the top table or two where I'm hoping to be after the 1st two missions.

Black Blow Fly wrote:Last year had solid missions each round.

G

Hence why I wrote 'nearly every year'.

I dont see what the big deal is, your going to have match up problems regardless of what you take. Its not the first time or the last time in my life that a mission will be an uphill battle. If a list that has a low kp count is able to do well enough in the first 2 missions where multiple low cost scoring units have an advantage then they deserve to have an advantage in the last mission.

Increase your spiritual pressure and prepare! The best player will win, but like always people will blame other factors to belittle others victories.

Best player wins games usually yes.. If you mean the overall event? Not really due to 3 round swiss leaving many undefeated people

Grand total KP mission 3: --62-- Mech Wolves

It appears they are trying to thin the Mech lists out some this year in round one, but triple points for transports? Double I think would have worked just fine.

Seeing as how I have spent almost $300 in the past month and a half buying Razorbacks + parts I will not be changing my list. I could care less if the mission is busted or not. However, you can count me in the group of people that will be rightfully blaming the scenario if I get massacred last round.

With the advantages mech has over foot armies, and the ability of list like wolves and guard to play themselves, I doubt many people will be going into round 3 against anything other then another mech army. Oh noes my netlist space wolves lost to someones netlist guard army, must be because of transports.

I will find great satisfaction in my old school WH Sisters killing netlists. Even with my 48 kp.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:With the advantages mech has over foot armies, and the ability of list like wolves and guard to play themselves, I doubt many people will be going into round 3 against anything other then another mech army. Oh noes my netlist space wolves lost to someones netlist guard army, must be because of transports.

You mean general advantages of mech over non-mech right? Since there is no scenario that punishes horde, and one that clearly is meant to nut shot mech lists in the last round. Although I will admit that as you said there is a good chance it will end up mech v mech in rnd3. I will also agree that mech lists generally do better than horde, and maybe they were trying to reward the players not going the way of the meta these days and meching up. Still as I said before I think triple points was a bit harsh. Even at 2pts apiece I would have over 50KP in the list as opposed to 62.

Examples:

I kill 90 boyz - 3pts
He kills one razorback - 3pts

I kill 30 plague marines - 3 pts
He kills one razorback - 3pts

There are many others, but it is pretty clear with just those two examples. Like I said before though I am going to play my list as it is and power through it. Not gonna go spend hundreds more to make an assault based list (need TWC) simply because the organizers came up with a balls scenario for rnd3.

Foot lists will probably do poor in the other 2 rounds due to time constraints.. also foot lists require a certain amount of close range to kill the enemy.. Again, time constraints will hinder that

Ork horde may be low KP but might end up with draws in round 1 and 2

Kaotik wrote:
You mean general advantages of mech over non-mech right? Since there is no scenario that punishes horde, and one that clearly is meant to nut shot mech lists in the last round.

Umm... Hate to break it to you but all missions nutshot horde. Manueverability > Numbers in most 40k missions nowadays.

5 objective modified spearhead with a foot sloggin army... Tell me how you like walking to every objective and getting tank shocked off of them on turn 6. Better hope for a massacre.

Spearhead VP. I think this one is pretty even Mech vs Foot, but Spearhead can be a biznitch with big armies for deployment.

pretre wrote:

Kaotik wrote:
You mean general advantages of mech over non-mech right? Since there is no scenario that punishes horde, and one that clearly is meant to nut shot mech lists in the last round.

Umm... Hate to break it to you but all missions nutshot horde. Manueverability > Numbers in most 40k missions nowadays.

5 objective modified spearhead with a foot sloggin army... Tell me how you like walking to every objective and getting tank shocked off of them on turn 6. Better hope for a massacre.

Spearhead VP. I think this one is pretty even Mech vs Foot, but Spearhead can be a biznitch with big armies for deployment.

It is alot easier to string 20-30 boyz across multiple nodes than it is to spread one tank, or the 5 guys inside it. I fail to see how the balance is thrown off in round 1, especially with a set 5 nodes. Round 2 as you said does seem to be pretty equal.

Kaotik wrote:
It is alot easier to string 20-30 boyz across multiple nodes than it is to spread one tank, or the 5 guys inside it. I fail to see how the balance is thrown off in round 1, especially with a set 5 nodes. Round 2 as you said does seem to be pretty equal.

The difference is that one tank shock removes you from being able to hold those multiple nodes due to having to come back into coherency. And you have to get across the board, which is what the mobility of Mech is all about. Unless it's a lot easier to move 5 units of boys to 5 objectives that it is to move 5 vehicles. I'm thinking the 12 inch move might be an advantage.

I find it funny that people claim foot sloggers aren't mobile in 5th ed.

A unit of 30 shoota boyz can be spread over many objectives. They can advance up the field 6"/turn and fire all their guns. A chimera that wants to fire can move 6" and fire one gun, or more than 6" and fire none.

The boyz can gain an extra d6 inches, averaging 3.5/turn, if they opt not to shoot. They lose, on average, 2.5"/turn compared to the chimera.

The boyz can get up to an extra 6" of movement in a turn that they have any model in charge range. This not only extends their mobility, but forces their opponent to stay further back (reducing their mobility) lest they play into the horde's hands.

I have yet to see a game on a 6x4 table where a horde army could not get across it in 4 turns.

Now, what they can't do is sit back and shoot for three turns, and then spend a couple of turns moving to the objectives. But that's not how the army wants to play either. It wants to move towards you.

I think the biggest weakness fielding a green-tide list in 'ard boyz is that you can field 180 boyz in 1500 points, and then you run out of troop slots. Mech guard or Wolves scale from 1500 to 2500 better, guard especially can keep adding more chimeras until it hits about 20,000 points. Whereas, the green tide has to dilute its strategy after taking the first six troop choices. Fortunately, kans and lootas synergize well with the overall concept.

Finally, I don't think that the game-play speed hurts the hordes more than the mechanized list. If the mech list's plan is to spend 3 turns shooting and then move to the objectives, then if the game runs out of time on turn 3, the mech player has no objectives. If they're forced to move to the objectives early because time is a factor, they haven't had enough time to shoot the orks before moving forward into charge range, and risk being swarmed over.

Redbeard wrote:

I have yet to see a game on a 6x4 table where a horde army could not get across it in 4 turns.

Well, in DoW with a few pieces of difficult terrain to cross you'll have a hard time of it. It'll be worse if you have to go first and a mobile enemy can use deployment and speed to stay away from you.

hehe deathwing 16kp

Kharnflakes wrote:hehe deathwing 16kp

lol Tell me how that works out for you.

I like that there is no DOW just my personal preferance, but I hate scenario 3. I've come to a conclusion however. I need to win scenario on Saturday, then I will have the right to endlessly tear into that scenario for being broken. There is a big difference between complaining about a scenario that a person wins than complaining about a scenario someone lost.

( I only have 17 kps in my Tyranid list. I think I may be in trouble. I do have a crap ton of Toughness 6 models though.

pretre wrote:

Kharnflakes wrote:hehe deathwing 16kp

lol Tell me how that works out for you.

lol i will 32 2+ saves plus wound allocation should be ok

mike_houghton98 wrote:( I only have 17 kps in my Tyranid list. I think I may be in trouble. I do have a crap ton of Toughness 6 models though.

Yeah that last mission is going to be fun with my IG I think I have 45 with vehicles alone, . Even if you were going hybrid you would still be giving up alot of points lets say you take 4 vehicles from heavy and fast, and you take 4 transports thats 24 points! Thats more then Mike already, I cant wait to see how well I will do in the last mission.

Lots of T6 is a great way to go with Nidz! Good luck.

G

has anyone gotten word about how Drop pods will be applied for KPs in the last mission?

Seriously, ixnay on the op-dray od-pay.


I'm sure we'll plaster it everywhere when we have an answer.

Scenario 2 to combat squad or not to combat squad, that is the question.

Depends how much you care about bonus points.. You can give up more Vps by combat squading if some marines survive.. (10 man squad can only give up 0%, 50% or 100% but combat squads can give 0, 25, 50, 75, 100)