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Post by: Blackmoor
I see a lot of people talking about WYSIWYG and wondering if it is ok to play at tournaments without being 100% WYSIWYG.
For example:
Is it ok to use spinegants for termagants?
Is it ok to use a power weapon for a powerfist?
It is ok to use X unit for Y unit?
Etc.
Here is the truth: Tournament organizers normally don’t care, and most of the time neither will your opponent. The only time it will ever be an issue is if you get the wrong type of opponent and you start to beat them. Then all of a sudden WYSIWYG will be an issue because then he will start to complain about your models and might have the TO come over to do something about it.
As they say in boxing, ‘you must protect yourself at all times’, so just as a precaution, you should always be WSYWIG as much as you can, and when you can’t, talk to the TO beforehand, and clearly explain to your opponent before the game begins what is, and what is not WYSIWYG.
But always try to be WYSWIG at all times as far as weapon options goes. I played against a land raider Redeemer last year at the 'Ard Boyz and it was a LR Crusader model. It was an unpleasant surprise to get flamed by that thing. Also you do not want to have your opponent keep track of what weapon options are on what unit. They should be clearly displayed so everyone knows what each unit has, and there is not issues about who had what item. Your opponent does not want (and should not) have to keep track of all of your proxies, and it can be confusing and frustrating if you have to remember all of them, and play the game in a timely manner.
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Post by: pretre
Blackmoor wrote:
Here is the truth: Tournament organizers normally don’t care, and most of the time neither will your opponent. The only time it will ever be an issue is if you get the wrong type of opponent and you start to beat them. Then all of a sudden WYSIWYG will be an issue because then he will start to complain about your models and might have the TO come over to do something about it.
QFT
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Post by: mikhaila
MOST tournament organizers don't care.
I do. Especially for 'Ardboyz. Others may as well. Don't chance it and make sure your army is WYSIWYG.
I long ago got sick of hearing how someone went to a GW run GT and had to play some 10 year old with a broken, unpainted army. The rules said NO, but no one wanted to tell him he had to go home. At the first 'Ardboyz regionals I ran, a guy showed up with red plastic cups for drop pods. I had to decide: Be a hardass on the rules, or do just what everyone else had done and not call anyone on it. I called him on it. No doors, no weapons, it's a drink cup, take it off the table. This followed making several people fix the broken weapons on predators and rhinos, and finally kicking one player out of the tournament, since his Ork boyz were legs glued to bases.
Since then, I try to be consistant from locals to regionals. WYWIWYG is the rule, and it gets enforced. Especially at the regional level, no one should be surprised by it. We'll see if I have to be the hard ass at the east coast nationals this year too.)
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Post by: Kirasu
Also it makes them buy stuff from your store :p But remember, counts as is legal too
I agree on cups as drop pods, I hate that because while I dont care about painted models I want my opponent to have A LITTLE self respect for himself and the hobby
21
Post by: blood angel
I have been to several tournaments where the only rule was WYSIWYG.
I spend a lot of time making sure my models have what their stat line says they do.
When all the marbles are on the line I expect the same from my opponent.
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Post by: pretre
To be fair though, mikhaila, s0me of your examples are way beyond WYSIWYG into the realm of 'Really???'.
That being said, I appreciate your approach and wish that was the way things were run across the board.
I put a lot of time and effort into my armies and appreciate being able to put them down and have people not have to ask what something is.
I only wish everyone else felt the same. 
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Post by: nkelsch
Blackmoor wrote:
Here is the truth: Tournament organizers normally don’t care, and most of the time neither will your opponent. The only time it will ever be an issue is if you get the wrong type of opponent and you start to beat them. Then all of a sudden WYSIWYG will be an issue because then he will start to complain about your models and might have the TO come over to do something about it.
But always try to be WYSWIG at all times as far as weapon options goes. I played against a land raider Redeemer last year at the 'Ard Boyz and it was a LR Crusader model. It was an unpleasant surprise to get flamed by that thing. Also you do not want to have your opponent keep track of what weapon options are on what unit. They should be clearly displayed so everyone knows what each unit has, and there is not issues about who had what item. Your opponent does not want (and should not) have to keep track of all of your proxies, and it can be confusing and frustrating if you have to remember all of them, and play the game in a timely manner.
Wait... which is it? is WYSIWYG only expected by selfish game-losing TFG or is it a weapon of gamecheating WAACers who are screwing opponents via non- WYSIWYG gamers who are abusing proxies to win? I am getting mixed messages...
If WYSIWYG is the law of the land, do not show up and expect to use proxies. It is that simple.
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Post by: lunarman
Here's an interesting one
What about combi-weapons?
All you are buying is a "combi-weapon" so must you specifically model the correct type, or just a general combi weapon?
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Post by: MVBrandt
Blackmoor is pretty spot on.
WYSIWYG is almost never required, anywhere. What's required is that everything be clear enough to easily identify.
In the world of modern 40k, where you give your opponent the army list ... it's more about having a painted army, than it is making sure those veterans have lasguns or shotguns modeled on them, or making sure all of your combi-weapons are perfectly modeled.
Puritanical opponents and jackasses are exceptions to the rule, and certainly not ones to be reinforced.
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Post by: Platuan4th
lunarman wrote:
What about combi-weapons?
All you are buying is a "combi-weapon" so must you specifically model the correct type, or just a general combi weapon?
You better be building a 4 barreled weapon with each possibility, then.
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Post by: pretre
lunarman wrote:Here's an interesting one
What about combi-weapons?
All you are buying is a "combi-weapon" so must you specifically model the correct type, or just a general combi weapon?
What codex allows you to buy a 'Combi-weapon'?
All the ones I know of make you purchase a specific one, i.e. Combi-flamer, combi-melta, combi-plasma, combi-stake, etc.
And yes, Combi-weapons are upgrades and weapons. The doubly should be WYSIWYG.
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Post by: Phazael
As an organizer, I can say my stance has always been this: If its not WYSIWYG, you had better be clear during deployment as to what the unit is, exactly. I have seen the magical morphing wargear happen too many times in games. At the bare minimum, if the model is not accurate (because, say, there are no whips and swords for Nid Warriors, or you only own spinegaunts) then all identical looking models had best be kitted out in the same manner. Anything else is a recipe for confusion, at best, and cheating at worst.
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Post by: Platuan4th
pretre wrote:
What codex allows you to buy a 'Combi-weapon'?
The Chaos Lord entry simply states "Combi-weapon", not any specific ones. In fact, it's the same way in every entry in that book with access to it.
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Post by: pretre
Platuan4th wrote:pretre wrote:
What codex allows you to buy a 'Combi-weapon'?
The Chaos Lord entry simply states "Combi-weapon", not any specific ones.
Consider me served.
Maybe they have the Obliterator of Combi-weapons. That would be very chaos-y.
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Post by: warboss
WYSIWIG is the only part of the "hobby" aspect of the game that is being used for the tournament. it's advertised ahead of time so can't be a suprise to anyone who is literate or even simply interested enough to care to ask what the rules are. regardless of how the game is going, in a tourny, it's not up to your opponent to keep track of your models that aren't what they seem. i play against counts as models in friendly games all the time (i even have a counts as army) but they don't belong in a tourny that specifically says they don't.
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Post by: Orion_44
WYSIWYG is usually enforced more as "You can clearly tell what the model should have is what you get." Especially in using "counts as" lists. But basically things like power swords as powerfists are a no go as the player can switch weapons intentionally or accidentally in the middle of the game to advantage.
The real issue is that models have to start the tourney glued together, a big issue for me once when I pitched my eldar off their display base on the way to the tourney hall.
I wouldn't show up with an unassembled model but I have had gus that came off, etc and I had to just lay by the model. Right now my forge world avatar sword is in 5 pieces since my son got a hold of it!
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Post by: mikhaila
pretre wrote:To be fair though, mikhaila, s0me of your examples are way beyond WYSIWYG into the realm of 'Really???'.
That being said, I appreciate your approach and wish that was the way things were run across the board.
I put a lot of time and effort into my armies and appreciate being able to put them down and have people not have to ask what something is.
I only wish everyone else felt the same.
Heh, ok, I'll play.) Explain which of these is not WYSIWYG, and into the realm of 'Really?' 
1. Red Plastic Drink cup = Drop Pod
2. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons.
3. Rhino with no weapon. (I don't have the old codex handy, but I believe it was an option for +5 points at the time.)
4. 32 sets of Ork legs on bases.
As a TO, you have to be fair. If you ding one person for something, you have to enforce it on everyone. Know what the guys that had broken weapons did? They pulled the parts out of their cases, picked up the glue and kicker I had sitting on the "fix it" table, and fixed their models before the start of the game. I routinely have bitz boxes and glue available. Many people just don't feel like fixing models until they have to.
'Ardboyz has no painting required at all. With grey plastics legions roaming the tables, WYSIWYG is especially important.
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Post by: pretre
mikhaila wrote:
Heh, ok, I'll play.) Explain which of these is not WYSIWYG, and into the realm of 'Really?'
1. Red Plastic Drink cup = Drop Pod - 'Really?' I mean, it's not even a model. What's next Soda can Carnifex?
2. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons. - WYSIWYG. Model is right, they just didn't model their 'upgrades'
3. Rhino with no weapon. (I don't have the old codex handy, but I believe it was an option for +5 points at the time.) WYSIWYG. Model is right, they just didn't model their 'upgrades'
4. 32 sets of Ork legs on bases. 'Really?' I mean, it's not even a complete model. Although I guess it could be an extreme form of count-as... Torso-impaired clan orks.
mikhaila wrote:
As a TO, you have to be fair. If you ding one person for something, you have to enforce it on everyone.
It's a matter of degree, I think.
Broken bitz... Meh, that happens.
Soda Can Carnifex, Red Cup Drop Pod... That's just rude to everyone there.
I think the key to your style, as you describe it, is openness. People know the rules when they go to your store and they are consistent.
mikhaila wrote:
'Ardboyz has no painting required at all. With grey plastics legions roaming the tables, WYSIWYG is especially important.
Agreed in principle. Resigned to reality. :(
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Post by: Dashofpepper
mikhaila wrote:pretre wrote:To be fair though, mikhaila, s0me of your examples are way beyond WYSIWYG into the realm of 'Really???'.
That being said, I appreciate your approach and wish that was the way things were run across the board.
I put a lot of time and effort into my armies and appreciate being able to put them down and have people not have to ask what something is.
I only wish everyone else felt the same.
Heh, ok, I'll play.) Explain which of these is not WYSIWYG, and into the realm of 'Really?'
1. Red Plastic Drink cup = Drop Pod
2. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons.
3. Rhino with no weapon. (I don't have the old codex handy, but I believe it was an option for +5 points at the time.)
4. 32 sets of Ork legs on bases.
As a TO, you have to be fair. If you ding one person for something, you have to enforce it on everyone. Know what the guys that had broken weapons did? They pulled the parts out of their cases, picked up the glue and kicker I had sitting on the "fix it" table, and fixed their models before the start of the game. I routinely have bitz boxes and glue available. Many people just don't feel like fixing models until they have to.
'Ardboyz has no painting required at all. With grey plastics legions roaming the tables, WYSIWYG is especially important.
Heh. You're awesome.
Red plastic cups fall into the " Lol...really?" realm. Definitely wouldn't allow those put on the table. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons. Is that even legal? I would have told the player that he's welcome to use it on the table, but its WYSIWYG - it has no weapons. Vroom vroom paperweight. The rhino with no weapon; that's an easy one. It gets played as a rhino with no weapon. Don't care if they spent points on the weapon, it doesn't get one. And the 32 sets of Ork legs on bases.....well, looks like those 32 orks got their heads (and torsos) blown off already, so he's got some handy casualty markers, but they certainly aren't live ones.
OP covered my worst fear. Wait, what? That has a flamer? This is supposed to be WYSIWYG.
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Post by: jbunny
I thnk he was saying the red cups was above and beyond anyting that should be allowed by a reasonable person.
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Post by: asugradinwa
Yeah I need to figure out whho's going to be my Vulkan Stand in as my Vulkan is on a 40mm base.
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Post by: Mephistoles1
I was going to past a query about peoples thoughts to this anyway, so since there are a few varied opinions in this thread already ...
I have tzeentch themed models with chaos combi weapons that are modeled as spells in the form of flaming skulls trailign fire. They are magnetized so they can be removed once used, and connect to various flaming books, marines hands, etc. They dont actually use flamer/plasma/melta bits, instead they are single fireball = combi flamer, single red flaming skull = combi melta, and dual purple flaming skulls = combi plasma.
I know they will be allowed in the first round as I have spoken with the organizer. Do you think this "counts as" would still be considered wysiwig? It is consistant across the board and explained as I deply them. Just wondering if I should start hoarding bits if I place and advance.
Most locals think its not a problem, but i have had one local say they should use the actual bits to be wysiwig.
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Post by: L0adt0ad
ok Im guilty of the DIY drop pods back in the day. But at least I had spray painted the soda bottles and the cds they were attached to black and did some other mods to them. But just regular drinking cups...come on, lil more imagination there please.
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Post by: Hulksmash
If they're painted and look cool they are better than a combi-flamer/melta/plasma! I think it has the coolness factor if done right that very few people will have a problem with it. Though I would put it on the lists you hand to people so they have a fast reference
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Post by: pretre
Although 'Counts as' is opponent permission, Rule of cool always helps.
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Post by: Fearspect
asugradinwa wrote:Yeah I need to figure out whho's going to be my Vulkan Stand in as my Vulkan is on a 40mm base.
You are always allows to size bases up one, just not make them smaller.
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Post by: nkelsch
Fearspect wrote:asugradinwa wrote:Yeah I need to figure out whho's going to be my Vulkan Stand in as my Vulkan is on a 40mm base.
You are always allows to size bases up one, just not make them smaller.
4th edition rules creep!
Upsizing leads to blatant and game-impacting cheating. 60mm Ghazghkull wants to discuss his extra 20mm of assault distance out of transports with you...
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Post by: asugradinwa
Fearspect wrote:asugradinwa wrote:Yeah I need to figure out whho's going to be my Vulkan Stand in as my Vulkan is on a 40mm base.
You are always allows to size bases up one, just not make them smaller.
Not sure where you get this, I've never seen this in a rulebook.
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Post by: pretre
nkelsch wrote:
Upsizing leads to blatant and game-impacting cheating. 60mm Ghazghkull wants to discuss his extra 20mm of assault distance out of transports with you...
^Win
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Post by: Dashofpepper
My Ghazghkull is going on a dreadnought base TO-NIGHT!
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Post by: pretre
Dashofpepper wrote:My Ghazghkull is going on a dreadnought base TO-NIGHT!
I call slippery slope. Bring a Trygon base just in case someone buys the Dreadnought base.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
I plan on it, and a Vendetta base just in case too!
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Post by: pretre
Dashofpepper wrote:I plan on it, and a Vendetta base just in case too!
Dash at 'Ard Boyz Finals...
Dash: "I deploy Ghaz from the BW."
Opponent: "Is that a trashcan lid?"
Dash: "Yep. I assault you."
Opponent: "But this is turn 1 DoW!"
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Post by: Aduro
Technically I cheat by making all my own bases for my Necron Destroyers. Anyone who complains about it though is a git since they're the same size as the large flight bases they come with. I just carve mine out of plasticard so they've got a flat surface that works out better for my conversions.
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Post by: augustus5
I was one of the people that used plastic cups for drop pods before there were GW drop pod models. I would never ad been foolish enough to hand over $80 for a bunch of FW pods. I eventually made some out of pvc parts based off of a design I saw online.
I don't have a problem with letting an opponent go beyond wysiwyg as long as it is consistent. What if somebody had 100+ ork boyz modelled as sluggas and then they decide they would rather use shootas? It would not bother me if he said before the game that all his sluggas were shootas. Who would want to paint up another 100+ boyz? I would not want to play against the same person if he said to me that X squad and Y squad were sluggas and A and B squads were shootas, as this could get a little confusing.
A friend of mine put together a tyranid army using already finished models bought off of ebay from various sellers. None of them were modelled the way he wanted them. He needed some elite dakka fexes and some heavy fexes (previous codex) so he painted the dakka fexes blue and the heavies red and let anyone he played beforehand know what they were and nobody had problems with it.
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Post by: pretre
@augustus5: There's a difference between how we would play with friends and what the expectation for a tournament is.
I play with all sorts of crazy stuff at home, but Proxy and not WYSIWYG is not okay at a tournament.
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Post by: J-Roc77
pretre wrote:@augustus5: There's a difference between how we would play with friends and what the expectation for a tournament is.
I play with all sorts of crazy stuff at home, but Proxy and not WYSIWYG is not okay at a tournament.
Agreed. I let my friend in friendly games use his soda as a drop pod. In a tourney that should not fly. A side note, he deployed it turn 1, and was thirsty the whole game.
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Post by: Mundar
What about square bases on fantasy models being used in 40k? A lot of that happens locally. Amazing when you're 1" away with a flamer and the max you hit is 3 minis
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Post by: CatPeeler
pretre wrote:There's a difference between how we would play with friends and what the expectation for a tournament is.
I play with all sorts of crazy stuff at home, but Proxy and not WYSIWYG is not okay at a tournament.
+1 Especially when WYSIWYG is specifically mentioned as a tournament rule.
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Post by: winterman
So as a TO, how far do you take WYSWIG? The examples here are pretty no brainer. What about the more tricky ones that come up from time to time.
Tyranid biomorphs. Many kits don't come with bits for biomorphs they are allowed to take (gargoyles, recut hormagaunts, to name just a few). Nothing in the codex states they have to be modeled (which is a change from the 4ed codex). Whats the ruling from those running ard boyz and similar?
Grenades. If they are upgrades and you take them (eg Black Templars frags, melta bombs for most armies) are they required? What if they aren't upgrades but come standard?
If grenades aren't required but biomorphs are -- then why?
Vehicle upgrades? Extra armor? Smoke? etc. Extra armor is one that maybe 1/3 of folks actually model (if that).
Then there's just the host of other upgrades that may not have clear cut ways to show wywig (artificer armor, digital weapons, hellfire rounds, etc etc etc). Should players be required to model such things (because it certainly is doable).
Just curious where TOs draw the line.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
The size of the base is a separate discussion. If you bring models on bases not supplied with the original kit then you are leaving yourself open to abuse, especially if you happen to beat a bitter opponent. The best course of action is to strictly adhere to the rules otherwise people can claim you used modeling to your own advantage.
On the subject of WYSIWYG I personally think this is very important to abide by as a rule. I have lost count of how many times one of my ICs was instagibbed by an enemy model carrying a power weapon that suddenly morphed into a power fist. It's very annoying & uncool. Some bits like grenades I don't see as needing to be modeled but probably it's a good idea to include a few models in a squad with the appropriate bits. Blackmoor's instance of finding out only after the game had started that a Crusader counted as a Redeemer only serves to eximplify how much of a huge in game advantage is possible for such a lame substitution. And even if your opponent tells you prior to the game it's still quite easy to forget and get burned... Literally in the case of Blackmoor's example.
G
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Post by: frgsinwntr
Black Blow Fly wrote:The size of the base is a separate discussion. If you bring models on bases not supplied with the original kit then you are leaving yourself open to abuse, especially if you happen to beat a bitter opponent. The best course of action is to strictly adhere to the rules otherwise people can claim you used modeling to your own advantage.
Black Blow Fly wrote:
On the subject of WYSIWYG I personally think this is very important to abide by as a rule. I have lost count of how many times one of my ICs was instagibbed by an enemy model carrying a power weapon that suddenly morphed into a power fist. It's very annoying & uncool. Some bits like grenades I don't see as needing to be modeled but probably it's a good idea to include a few models in a squad with the appropriate bits. Blackmoor's instance of finding out only after the game had started that a Crusader counted as a Redeemer only serves to eximplify how much of a huge in game advantage is possible for such a lame substitution. And even if your opponent tells you prior to the game it's still quite easy to forget and get burned... Literally in the case of Blackmoor's example.
G
agreed... morphing fists... they hurt
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Post by: Fearspect
Hahaha, and I always thought the term 'Hidden Powerfist' referred to something else...
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Post by: Stormrider
1. Red Plastic Drink cup = Drop Pod
2. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons.
3. Rhino with no weapon. (I don't have the old codex handy, but I believe it was an option for +5 points at the time.)
4. 32 sets of Ork legs on bases.
This is just lazy, now if it's casual fine, but for a Tourney? Hell no!
I once had to fight a Titan that was a Gundam model, had to say it didn't go well.
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Post by: I grappled the shoggoth
Me and friends do all kinds of crazy stuff during friendly games to try out new ideas. Such as
terminators as hive guard
dark eldar army as pure grey knights
eldar army as pure sanguinary guard blood angels. The avengers are regular guard, the scorpion is the guy with the first, and the fire dragons have melta pistols.
chaos marines as space wolves, with index cards as wolf cavalry.
obviously none of this gak flys in tournaments. But there is a grey area. I play with two trygons in my nid army. And use a trygon and mawloc model to represent them. I always let opponents know "the two mean centipede lookin things are my trygons" as I have no other trygon/mawloc models or things based on them so its never a problem.
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Post by: schadenfreude
1. Red Plastic Drink cup = Drop Pod
2. Predator with no weapons in the sponsons.
3. Rhino with no weapon. (I don't have the old codex handy, but I believe it was an option for +5 points at the time.)
4. 32 sets of Ork legs on bases.
1) Remove it form play, not a usable model in a tourney.
2) No sponson weapons.
3) The Rhino has no gun.
4) Remove them from play, not a usable model in a tourney.
Those are all easy common sense WYSIWYG calls.
The problem with demanding the letter of the law is by the same letter someone can demand that MEQ be removed from the play halfway through the game because upon close inspection it's revealed that they don't have both frag and krak grenades, or that CSMs are not modeled with a bolt gun, bolt pistol, and CCW as I don't know anybody who glues all 3 weapons onto a single marine. Now that would be acting like a giant douche.
Ultimately it comes down to an unquantifiable amount of common sense is required for a TO to make WYSIWYG calls.
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Post by: Dashofpepper
pretre wrote:Dashofpepper wrote:I plan on it, and a Vendetta base just in case too!
Dash at 'Ard Boyz Finals...
Dash: "I deploy Ghaz from the BW."
Opponent: "Is that a trashcan lid?"
Dash: "Yep. I assault you."
Opponent: "But this is turn 1 DoW!"
I actually just laughed until I choked, that was funny. =p Automatically Appended Next Post: J-Roc77 wrote:pretre wrote:@augustus5: There's a difference between how we would play with friends and what the expectation for a tournament is.
I play with all sorts of crazy stuff at home, but Proxy and not WYSIWYG is not okay at a tournament.
Agreed. I let my friend in friendly games use his soda as a drop pod. In a tourney that should not fly. A side note, he deployed it turn 1, and was thirsty the whole game.
You should get him a 5 point straw upgrade so he can drink without having to move it. 
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Post by: I grappled the shoggoth
Bonus points if you mount the whole nob squad on equally large bases. Deploy them front and center in dawn of war, and the enemy cannot deploy on the table.
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Post by: insaniak
Fearspect wrote:You are always allows to size bases up one, just not make them smaller.
That was last edition.
To be honest, I don't really think WYSIWYG even needs to be a rule. In a miniature wargame that revolves so much around the physical and visual aspects of the miniatures, using correct models really should be a no-brainer.
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Post by: kestral
Here's some that I wonder about -
I have the Red Terror. What the heck is it? The codex vaguely refers to it being the attacks of both Trygons and Ravenors being confused. I've lengthened it by an inch or so, but when I finally saw a Trygon in the flesh, it was WAY bigger than my Terror, and had a bigger base too, despite the fact that I'd up based the terror. I might want to use it this weekend, but have mixed feelings on the subject.
Also, my position is that you can use the original bases the models came with, even if GW has since made the model larger. The notion that GW has somehow factored base size into game balance is total nonsense (Hey, lets make termies a little cheaper because they are on larger bases now and can't deepstrike as effectively - sure.), and I don't feel like rebasing them.
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Post by: pretre
kestral wrote:Here's some that I wonder about -
I have the Red Terror. What the heck is it? The codex vaguely refers to it being the attacks of both Trygons and Ravenors being confused. I've lengthened it by an inch or so, but when I finally saw a Trygon in the flesh, it was WAY bigger than my Terror, and had a bigger base too, despite the fact that I'd up based the terror. I might want to use it this weekend, but have mixed feelings on the subject.
The Red terror model is just a Ravenor now. The Red Terror fluff is all sorts of crazy and at odds with 'reality'.
kestral wrote:
Also, my position is that you can use the original bases the models came with, even if GW has since made the model larger. The notion that GW has somehow factored base size into game balance is total nonsense (Hey, lets make termies a little cheaper because they are on larger bases now and can't deepstrike as effectively - sure.), and I don't feel like rebasing them.
That is your position and technically RAW, iirc. That being said it's a base and your reason for not doing it is 'I don't feel like it...' I have old Termy bases and if I was going to field them, I would join the modern age and up base them.
<<Insert silly comparision between not basing your minis and using some absurd old model>>
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Post by: gorgon
kestral wrote:Here's some that I wonder about -
I have the Red Terror. What the heck is it? The codex vaguely refers to it being the attacks of both Trygons and Ravenors being confused. I've lengthened it by an inch or so, but when I finally saw a Trygon in the flesh, it was WAY bigger than my Terror, and had a bigger base too, despite the fact that I'd up based the terror. I might want to use it this weekend, but have mixed feelings on the subject.
Yeah, I don't think anyone's going to sweat you using it as a Ravener when it's on the same base, roughly the same size and fluffilogically was a big mutant Ravener back in the day. Current fluff does suggest something in between a Ravener and a Mawloc, but clearly it's not a Mawloc or even close to that size.
If there's a question, conveniently point out that the fluff box for the RT is under the Ravener listing.
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Post by: Great Unclean One
A few questions (Just because I'm slightly worried now)
1.The Demon Prince is definitely on a dreadnought base size even though supplied with a terminator base?
2.Do you have to model the third weapon or grenades to chaos marines?
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Post by: kestral
Well, perhaps "I don't feel like it" is a bit flip. How about "round bases are expensive with shipping, or with the other ones you have to buy with them" and "old termies look kind of silly on big bases and take up too much space in the figure cabinet". I'd add "I worked really hard on the basing", but that wouldn't be true. : )
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Post by: Phazael
I use my Red Terror model as a CC dedicated Warrior Prime.
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Post by: mrwittwer
Great Unclean One wrote:A few questions (Just because I'm slightly worried now)
1.The Demon Prince is definitely on a dreadnought base size even though supplied with a terminator base?
2.Do you have to model the third weapon or grenades to chaos marines?
I have to wonder on this as well. I put my daemon princes on dreadnought bases just because the terminator bases are too small for a daemon prince. The model is huge and a monsterous creature, i really thought he deserved something larger, not even from a gaming aspect, it just looks better. Am i gunna get dinged for this?
I also modeled some of my new CSM all with CC weapon and bolt pistol. It is assumed they have a bolter isnt it? or would i just not be allowed to shoot the bolter of people really got upset over it?
Also im referencing this to ard boyz if that helps.
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Post by: nkelsch
mrwittwer wrote:
I have to wonder on this as well. I put my daemon princes on dreadnought bases just because the terminator bases are too small for a daemon prince. The model is huge and a monsterous creature, i really thought he deserved something larger, not even from a gaming aspect, it just looks better. Am i gunna get dinged for this?
Oversized bases directly impact assaulting out of transports and unit coherency. Neither of these issues are usually a concern for Demon Princes. As long as it doesn't impact gameplay, opponents usually won't have a problem granting 'opponent's permission'.
Really comes down to... if your opponent feels it is abusive, and doesn't agree to your models, he is in the right. TO is simply someone who can make those calls at events to maintain consistency and protect players from sportsmanship issues.
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Post by: Great Unclean One
Well, the only thing is that in the GW shop (The Nurgle DP) it's on a dread sized base. Also, in GW books/white dwarf they are on big bases even though GW supplies them with terminator sized ones
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Post by: insaniak
Great Unclean One wrote:1.The Demon Prince is definitely on a dreadnought base size even though supplied with a terminator base?
It should be on whichever base it comes with. The Nurgle Prince (as far as I know) is usually supplied with a 60mm base. The regular 40K Prince model comes with a 40mm, unless they've changed it.
That being said, in practice, most people not only don't care if you use a slightly larger base, they most likely won't even notice. If you're really worried about it, check with the TO before the event.
2.Do you have to model the third weapon or grenades to chaos marines?
Grenades are rarely required for WYSIWYG. Weapons all should be, although as long as they are represented on the majority of the squad, that's usually good enough.
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Post by: Great Unclean One
Ah ok, thanks man, the problem is that the chaos marines come with chainsword, pistol and bolter as standard and fitting them all on a model can be a wee bit tricky... also makes them look very bulky. But thanks for that ^^
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
mikhaila wrote:I try to be consistant from locals to regionals. WYWIWYG is the rule, and it gets enforced.
And that's good, because as the TO, it's really your job to ensure the integrity of your tournament. You don't want to be named as the TO who let some guy slide. ____ pretre wrote:To be fair though, mikhaila, s0me of your examples are way beyond WYSIWYG into the realm of 'Really???'.
Oh, really?  1. red plastic cups for drop pods = not WYSIWYG. Not even a legit model. 2. broken weapons on predators and rhinos = not WYSIWYG. How can one tell what the model (tank) is armed with when there are no weapons on it? Especially when the very point of tanking a Pred is it's guns. Not being able to tell if that guy has an Annihilator, Destructor, Baal, or something else is pretty unfair. Especially if he has multiple Preds of different armament on the board. 3. Ork boyz were legs glued to bases = not WYSIWYG. As with the Preds above, how can one tell which models are armed with what, or even whether they're Sluggas or Shootas or Lootas or Nobs? Sorry, but all of the above are legit reasons to DQ the model, if not the army. ____ augustus5 wrote:I was one of the people that used plastic cups for drop pods before there were GW drop pod models. I would never ad been foolish enough to hand over $80 for a bunch of FW pods.
As others have said, not in tournament play.  ____ Mundar wrote:What about square bases on fantasy models being used in 40k?
If the model was originally only supplied with a square base (i.e. OOP 2E Dreads & Daemons), there is no basis for complaint. Same as metal Termies on 25mm rounds.  ____ winterman wrote:Grenades.
GW specifically stated in their WYSIWYG rules that grenades didn't matter.
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Post by: winterman
GW specifically stated in their WYSIWYG rules that grenades didn't matter.
Which rules are those? 5ed WYSWIG rules say no such thing. Neither do the ard boyz rules. Another bit of prior-ruleset-itis.
And see that's what I was getting at, verbatim from current rulesets there's no real difference between not having toxin sacs on your gargoyles and not modelling melta bombs on your assault marines. Yet people make a distinction.
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Post by: Kiwidru
just gonna +1 a few ideas. as a chaos mortals player I often use non wysiwyg (mostly for different marks since they are all color specific), I have never had anyone complain, but I always tell them at deployment as well as having a list handy, and make sure they feel as comfortable as if the army was a wysiwyg
1. If you are using counts as models (like the spine gaunt as other gaunt example) then *all* similar models are counts as (in this case meaning you couldn't have one unit as spine gaunts and the other as horma gaunts)
2. If it isn't a model you can't use it, I remember playing a 40k tourney the weekend necrons were released, and some chucklehead brought a waterbottle filled with boltgun metal water and counted it as a monolith... I couldn't believe the organizer allowed it, and havnt attended his tourneys since.
3. Be upfront. I don't care if you stomp me with a counts as list, I do care if you use a fark-ton of counts as units to try to confuse me into a loss. Let me know *everything* before the game starts
4. If your model isn't complete don't use it, unless you are converting because gw doesn't make a model for the unit... Your tank doesn't have sponsons because you want to magnatize the sponsons? Use it next tourney... You have 40 orcs you bough this morning, so you only had time to glue the feet to the bases? Use them next tourney... You have gs'ed a super sweet swarmlord and are waitng for a couple of sword arms to ship? Not a problem
overall I think wysiwyg is there to try to get consistancy for the sake of your opponent, rather than just to be a hard on about modeling
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Post by: insaniak
Great Unclean One wrote:Ah ok, thanks man, the problem is that the chaos marines come with chainsword, pistol and bolter as standard and fitting them all on a model can be a wee bit tricky... also makes them look very bulky. But thanks for that ^^
The Chaos Marine box does come with a couple of pistol holsters, which is one easy way of representing them. You'll need to scrounge for extras through.
Although, to be honest, I doubt too many players would have a problem with not having all pistols represented, since they are standard gear... it's easy enough to just say 'hey, they all have pistols' at the start of the game.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Does 5E even mention WYSIWYG?
For Grenades, I'm going off of the various GW Tournament rulespacks.
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Post by: insaniak
JohnHwangDD wrote:Does 5E even mention WYSIWYG?
The rulebook mentions it for Characters.
I believe (not going to go check as breakfast is a bit more pressing right now) that at least some of the codexes still mention upgrades needing to be modelled.
As far as I can recall, no mention is made of models specifically having to have regular gear modelled... Some take that as meaning that it doesn't need to be shown, some take it as not being mentioned because it's a given that models should be appropriately equipped anyway.
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Post by: mrwittwer
What if it is converted stuff? Like i have lightning claws that i made, they are obviously lightning claws when you look at them. Does this count?
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Post by: insaniak
Asking on forums for specific answers to specific WYSIWYG questions is ultimately pointless.
WYSIWYG is really very simple: When your opponent looks at the model, what he sees should be what is presented in the army list.
Conversions are fine, so long as they are recognisable. 'Counts as' is fine, so long as it is clear, consistent, and not confusing to your opponent.
All that WYSIWYG is supposed to do is make the game easier and less confusing for both players.
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Post by: skyth
As for the gunless Rhino...Rhinos come standard with a Storm Bolter (At least as far back as I remember)...It isn't an upgrade, thus should still be usable (No additional stormbolters though). Same as CSm's...They come standard with Bolters, BP's, and CCW's...Usually you only need to model upgrades, not standard kit.
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Post by: Brazila
I realize no one here can answer for my local TO, but I was wondering how others feel about things like options for daemons, are you expected to model your breath of chaos or powers like unholy might? What about on a necron lord things like gaze of flame? I get that you have to have a powerfist if you have one on the guy, but it seems like saying you have to display each upgrade for some things is just a game breaker. Like a Chaos Daemon Daemon prince of Nurgle, do you have to model the mark, what about the defensive grenade like power, what about breath of chaos the list goes on and on. Also if it comes standard do you need to model it? Like CSM all have the 3 weapon trifecta but I have seldom seen any models made that way even on GW site.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Some stuff is common sense, and don't forget the almighty "Counts As" rule.
For example, my Emperor's Tarot isn't represented on my Inquisitor. He's got pockets and pouches and whatnot where it could easily be. Or he left it on the Strike Cruiser so it wouldn't get damaged after he consulted it. Modeling a couple of pouches on your guys with a lot of odd wargear can be helpful.
Player A: "Where's your Sergeant's Melta Bombs?"
Player B: "They're in his pocket, beeyatch! Recognize!"
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Post by: kronk
On the combi-weapons. I have combi-meltas and combi-plasmas. I have never seen a combi-flamer, although I made a really crappy one.
Is there any boxed set or model that comes with a combi-flamer? If not, could I use a combi-melta and/or combi-plasma? Does that violate WYSIWYG?
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Post by: Mannahnin
Combi-meltas, Combi-plasmas, and combi-flamers are all different weapons, and should be modeled to be recognizable. If you can’t find an appropriate bit, your best bet is generally to take a bolter and the other gun, and clip/shave them to fit together.
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Post by: kronk
Mannahnin wrote:Combi-meltas, Combi-plasmas, and combi-flamers are all different weapons, and should be modeled to be recognizable. If you can’t find an appropriate bit, your best bet is generally to take a bolter and the other gun, and clip/shave them to fit together.
I don't have a problem with that, as I enjoy converting and have specifically made a combi-flamer that should be very easy to recognize. However, there is no standard bit available for the combi-flamer and not everyone has my mad (horrible) conversion skills. Is this something that is really going to get someone dinged in a tournament if they use a combi-plasma for a combi-flamer?
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Post by: Mannahnin
I’m not sure if there is a standard bit. I know the chaos terminators come with one, but I’m not sure about a smaller one for power-armored marines.
But for reference, yes, generally having one kind of clearly-recognizable weapon and calling it another is a violation of WYSIWYG. Whether you actually suffer any kind of consequence for this is going to be at the discretion of the tournament organizer and your opponents, and they may be kind. But I certainly wouldn’t do it. I had two squads of terminators with converted combi-plasmas in 4th ed, which I’ve since busted off and replaced with combi-meltas and a combi-flamer.
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Post by: lixulana
WYSIWYG to me means that when i look at the model from the other side of the table i need to know what important wargear it has.
or maybe simplier, if you field a model it is reasonable to not model things that are required in the model,
so a tactical space marine always has
power armor
boltgun
bolt pistol
frag+crack
a tactical marine would have to be modeled if it is
sergeant as it is a specifically different model from a tactical marine
meltagun - upgrade
lascannon - upgrade
additionally
power fist - upgrade on sergeant
Orks
an ork boy has two choices, shoota or slugga/ccw these should be modeled as such because they are distinctly different models and different game effects.
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Post by: Orion_44
There are two issues here. One WYSIWYG is not clearly defined and uses the word should in the BRB.
Should does not mean must.
You always need to check at almost every tournament specifically if your models are truly WYSIWYG if there is any question. In years of tourneys the general rules that I have found are:
1) If the model comes with it base don't bother modeling it.
2)If it is an upgrade that is not a weapon and has no affect on stat line such as an Emperor's tarot you usually don't have to model it.
3) If you have modeled anything that does not have a bit no one can tell you what it is supposed to look like so specify what it is to judges/opponents and you are covered
4) Many Kits come with none of the upgrade bits labeled. So if you are Tyranids and Tau many people won't know what any particular bit represents in your mind when you modeled it. Explain it and move on.
5) If the item is known by everyone who has played more than 3 games, i.e. a power sword it cannot be a power fist no matter what you claim to a judge.
6) Giving a run down on converted models before the game begins stops almost all general git-tery before it begins and you can use my favorite line "suck it up cupcake" if they complain at the end. They had their chance.
7) If you have to lose one random piece of gear due to some tard nut you will almost certainly win because you are the better player and they have angered you. Smile and compliment every unit you kill, compliment the one model a turn they kill from you. Laugh as they grow angrier and angrier.
8) When you collect the prize at the end make sure you stop and show them what they didn't get and thank them for a good game.
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Post by: Pika_power
What about akimbo pistols or duel wielding chainswords? If I have an Assault Marine unit, can some of them be using akimbo, while others have both arms with chainswords, under the Rule of Cool?
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
No one cares about models with two chainswords/pistols.
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Post by: pretre
Pika_power wrote:What about akimbo pistols or duel wielding chainswords? If I have an Assault Marine unit, can some of them be using akimbo, while others have both arms with chainswords, under the Rule of Cool?
Yes and no.
Dual pistols is Pistol and CCW.
Two Chainswords is not. But put a holster on him and you're WYSIWYG.
RoC doesn't factor in.
(I do this with my SW.)
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Post by: Hulksmash
I'm currently modeling an Adeptus Mechanicus strike force that will be counts as Daemons. It actually makes modeling the daemon upgrades like wind of chaos easy. Just put a huge flamer on the guy 
I don't think anyone is gonna have any issues with my builds as they will be consistant and pretty easy to tell what they are (i.e. Tzeentch Herald Chariot=Speeder Storm w/Lascannon front mounted weapon to represent the Bolt of Tzeentch and with a Tech-Priest in the troop bay).
Fortunately Rule of Cool does work if you do it right
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Post by: I grappled the shoggoth
Hulksmash wrote:
Fortunately Rule of Cool does work if you do it right
This a thousand times. If someone put that much effort into converting an awesome army, I would put the effort forward to memorize what everything is.
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Post by: Darkzephyr
Reading this makes me a bit concerned about some recently Konverted/Kustomized models I created.
1. Extra Wide Battlewagon. Something I've been wanting to do for awhile. I took a GW Wagon and made it a bit bigger...well, Wider mostly. I'm not sure if this is going to cause issues or not. I hope it won't be seen as "modeling to the advantage". I personally think it looks a lot better this way, but I feel like I should've also added a bit of height and length as well to balance it out.
2. Nob Bikers from Deffkoptas. A very common and well known way to create Nob Bikers. Along with looking really awesome, they tend to be at least 2x the size of a regular Warbiker. I hope this doesn't cause problems. I'm planning on measuring from base to base, even though some terrain and model bits extend beyond the typical Biker Base.
Other than that, I only have a few WYSIWYG concerns.
1. Big Shootas on Trukks and Dakka Guns on Bikers. Since both of these come equipped as default, and it's the only weapon they could possibley have, I wonder if I need to model them on. I'm sure I can find my Ork Gunners and attach them and I believe I have enough guns to attach one or two to every Ork Biker.
2. Big Mek with KFF and Burna. I currently have a custom Big Mek with KFF that came with the Ork starting army that I bought off another player at my LGS. The Ork is a bit smaller than the Current Big Mek with a KFF. I believe it's a 3rd edition or earlier model and the arms/body in general feel a bit smaller than most of the current Ork Models. I think putting a regular Burna on him would feel and look out of place, plus he's kinda falling apart. I'm considering rebuilding a Big Mek with KFF, if I can find a good model to use and scratch-build a KFF in one day.
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Post by: daedalus
pretre wrote:Pika_power wrote:What about akimbo pistols or duel wielding chainswords? If I have an Assault Marine unit, can some of them be using akimbo, while others have both arms with chainswords, under the Rule of Cool?
Yes and no.
Dual pistols is Pistol and CCW.
Two Chainswords is not. But put a holster on him and you're WYSIWYG.
RoC doesn't factor in.
(I do this with my SW.)
I'd want to make sure the pistols aren't somehow TL like Seraphim pistols are, but after finding out it's just modelled that way, I'd be cool with it.
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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
insaniak wrote:Great Unclean One wrote:Ah ok, thanks man, the problem is that the chaos marines come with chainsword, pistol and bolter as standard and fitting them all on a model can be a wee bit tricky... also makes them look very bulky. But thanks for that ^^
The Chaos Marine box does come with a couple of pistol holsters, which is one easy way of representing them. You'll need to scrounge for extras through.
Although, to be honest, I doubt too many players would have a problem with not having all pistols represented, since they are standard gear... it's easy enough to just say 'hey, they all have pistols' at the start of the game.
This. If it's standard equipment or grenades, I don't have a problem with my opponent leaving it out. A CSM with bolter, bolt pistol and CCW, while doable given the bits in the boxed set, looks extremely overencumbered and silly.
Likewise, something like a Rhino missing its bolter...whatever. It's not going to make a huge difference and it comes with the thing anyway.
I have a much greater problem with people modeling for effect than not modeling at all. Using Forgeworld stuff that is quite obviously advantageous over the existing GW product, ie: using a Forgeworld Ork Battlefortress as a Battlewagon with Hardcase. It's MUCH bigger, and the size increase is nothing but advantageous for a Kan-wall list. Some other Forgeworld models put the weapons on vehicles up higher on the model than the GW equivalents, so you can use intervening friendly models as screening while shooting over them without giving your target a coversave. It might be legal, but it's "modeling for effect" and undeniably lame, especially if your strategy revolves around using that screen.
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Post by: Ed_Bodger
I completley agree with WYSIWYG with one exception. All Tactical Space Marines have a boltgun and a pistol this is universal for codex SM therefore a pistol does not need to be modeled.
CSM and GH have a bolter, pistol and ccw as standard again stated in codex therefore it does not need to be modelled.
Any unit that has grenades in the codex these do not need to be modeled.
If these things are stated in the codex you should have nbo need to model them. If your opponent does not know they have these things then it is their own fault. If it is stated in the codex the model has them.
Special Weapons, Heavy Weapons and upgrades of all sorts should be modeled with the exception of something like artificer armour which is very hard to model without looking like well painted power armour. Extra Armour on vehicles is the same. You should tell your opponent when you give him your army list that a model has one of these and show him the model ask him if he has any questions if he doesn't and everything has been declared then he has no grounds for redress if he forgets.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
I think a little common sense helps with WYSIWYG. Generally, it's impractical to model every piece of wargear the models come with basic (i.e. boltgun, bolt pistol and CCW on Chaos marines)
However, if an upgrade has been taken, such as a meltagun or a unit champion, it is vital you represent these. This is especially true of any upgrades given to the aforementioned champion. I've probably just restated the posts of various others, but even so, this is what I think.
There, that's my thoughts on the matter.
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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:I think a little common sense helps with WYSIWYG. Generally, it's impractical to model every piece of wargear the models come with basic (i.e. boltgun, bolt pistol and CCW on Chaos marines)
However, if an upgrade has been taken, such as a meltagun or a unit champion, it is vital you represent these. This is especially true of any upgrades given to the aforementioned champion. I've probably just restated the posts of various others, but even so, this is what I think.
There, that's my thoughts on the matter.
Absolutely, and it should be modeled in a way that actually reflects what we're dealing with. I've seen some pretty silly looking combi-weapons that don't really look like anything. If it's supposed to be a combi-melta then it should look like a combi-melta.
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Post by: insaniak
Darkzephyr wrote:1. Big Shootas on Trukks and Dakka Guns on Bikers. Since both of these come equipped as default, and it's the only weapon they could possibley have, I wonder if I need to model them on. I'm sure I can find my Ork Gunners and attach them and I believe I have enough guns to attach one or two to every Ork Biker.
Opinions will vary on the bikers. As many people are saying in this thread, some won't care if standard gear isn't modelled. For me, the point of WYSIWYG is that models should represent what they are supposed to be. Leaving the guns off Ork bikes is confusing, particularly for people who have played previous editions where the guns were optional.
The big shootas on trukks (or any other vehicle weapons that are missing) are an issue, because measurement and LOS for the vehicle's shooting is from the weapon. A little hard to do if the weapon isn't there.
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Post by: mikhaila
insaniak wrote:Darkzephyr wrote:1. Big Shootas on Trukks and Dakka Guns on Bikers. Since both of these come equipped as default, and it's the only weapon they could possibley have, I wonder if I need to model them on. I'm sure I can find my Ork Gunners and attach them and I believe I have enough guns to attach one or two to every Ork Biker.
Opinions will vary on the bikers. As many people are saying in this thread, some won't care if standard gear isn't modelled. For me, the point of WYSIWYG is that models should represent what they are supposed to be. Leaving the guns off Ork bikes is confusing, particularly for people who have played previous editions where the guns were optional.
The big shootas on trukks (or any other vehicle weapons that are missing) are an issue, because measurement and LOS for the vehicle's shooting is from the weapon. A little hard to do if the weapon isn't there.
Agreed. Trucks can upgrade to another weapon, and should have the weapon on the vehicle, including the standard one, for measuring to targets. Trucks come with the part, it's not like you have to go scrounging for them.
Bikes should have guns. In casual games where I want to run 20 bikers, I might break out my heavily modified bikers from last edition that use the gorka morka rider and have no dakka guns. I wouldn't use them in a tournament, as they obviously don't have guns, and the pistol the driver waves over sure isn't putting out that many shots.
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Post by: Skarboy
WYIWYG is not really that hard, but it is important IMO. Even in friendly games, it's a little annoying keeping track of who has a powerfist or plasma gun, which Razorback actually has the lascannon instead of the heavy bolters, and so on. I realize that it's hard modeling options, even with magnets, but some effort should be made. For example, on ork trukks, since they have a gunner on the big shoota, it makes it hard to take a rokkit option without completely changing the model. What I did was add a magnetized slot where I could slap a rokkit launcher on so that it's clear I have the RL option and won't be using the big shoota, even though it's modeled onto the trukk. It's easy and visually represented (and easy to remove if I just want the big shoota trukk).
The trickier situations, IMO, are when "official" models don't exist (*cough*stormraven*cough*) and you have to grant leeway on the scratch-built stuff.
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Post by: Karon
What do y'all think of using square bases in 40k?
I don't really see a difference, or impact on gaming.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
None of my opponents care in terms of weapons. They know as well as I do that the Chaos Space marine set only comes with 1melta,1plasma and 1flamer. Therefore, I use the melta and the plasma as meltas, and they never care,so whatever.
I use terminators as obliterators, and I use a vindicator as a rhino.
That's the extent of my proxying, just because I don't have everything I need yet.
Although, I really do get pissed off when people use a ripper swarm as terminators and wraithlords as dreadnoughts,to name a few. My friend plays SoB and 100% of his army is proxies. Die in a fire IG,nids and orks as SoB....
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Post by: Janthkin
Samus_aran115 wrote:None of my opponents care in terms of weapons. They know as well as I do that the Chaos Space marine set only comes with 1melta,1plasma and 1flamer. Therefore, I use the melta and the plasma as meltas, and they never care,so whatever.
I use terminators as obliterators, and I use a vindicator as a rhino.
That's the extent of my proxying, just because I don't have everything I need yet.
Although, I really do get pissed off when people use a ripper swarm as terminators and wraithlords as dreadnoughts,to name a few. My friend plays SoB and 100% of his army is proxies. Die in a fire IG,nids and orks as SoB....
I'm confused - you're fine with Terminators as Oblits, but object to Wraithlords as Dreads? Why?
Honestly, I'm often happier with proxies from outside the army being played - less change of confusion, as a Wraithlord isn't ever part of a (C) SM army, but a Terminator could be.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Ugh. I may sound a bit like a hipster here, but I wouldn't play against a 100% proxy army. The very thought makes my soul hurt.
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Post by: Accolade
I think providing a list and being very open to pointing out weapons/wargear/etc. at any point in a game goes a long way to alleviating troubles. Still, I played a guy in my previous tournament using the new Blood Angels codex, and started the DoW setup-batlle with just three basic rhinos out. He gave me a copy of his list (which I feel could have benefited from being more detailed), and I skimmed it but just kept an eye on the units on the table. Then two rhinos hit me with their assault cannons (they were predators it seems), and the third I realized was a vindicator! I suppose I am to blame for not really reading his list thoroughly, but it's that disconnect in units that kept throwing me off.
Now, I think my case is pretty extreme in terms of bad WYSIWYG (the other tourney players were joking about the guy's army while we played-- "What? What do you mean you can't see the Sanguinary priest? He's right there! That guy! With the Chainsword and bolt pistol! Who looks like all the other guys!"). So I'm in agreement with most of the folks on here about keeping things as close to WYSIWYG and not making huge changes from a unit's visible appearance. But with well converted/slightly ambiguous models (massive chainswords, spiky power fist/claws), I think that leeway can be provided especially if your opponent is forthcoming about what any discrepancies are.
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Post by: I grappled the shoggoth
You cannot deploy a vindicator on the table during dawn of war, I dont think baal preds can go out, as scouts doesnt let you do that, only infiltrate. Sounds like you got outright cheated.
27872
Post by: Samus_aran115
Janthkin wrote:Samus_aran115 wrote:None of my opponents care in terms of weapons. They know as well as I do that the Chaos Space marine set only comes with 1melta,1plasma and 1flamer. Therefore, I use the melta and the plasma as meltas, and they never care,so whatever.
I use terminators as obliterators, and I use a vindicator as a rhino.
That's the extent of my proxying, just because I don't have everything I need yet.
Although, I really do get pissed off when people use a ripper swarm as terminators and wraithlords as dreadnoughts,to name a few. My friend plays SoB and 100% of his army is proxies. Die in a fire IG,nids and orks as SoB....
I'm confused - you're fine with Terminators as Oblits, but object to Wraithlords as Dreads? Why?
Honestly, I'm often happier with proxies from outside the army being played - less change of confusion, as a Wraithlord isn't ever part of a (C) SM army, but a Terminator could be.
I see your point. The thing is, my termies have green stuff on them to look like obliterators, and I threw a bunch of weapons on them. They might as well be obliterators at that point.
That's true. I'd rather see sanguinary guard as raptors than rhinos as predators...
6593
Post by: Ventus
I have a question about nid hormagaunts. in the old codex and old model kits, you could upgrade units with toxin sacs and there were bits in the kit for modelling them. In the new hormagaunt kit (now separating the two gaunt types) there are no longer any toxin sacs parts in the kit.
So with the new codex, if you have a unit of hormagaunts and upgrade them with toxin sacs, do you have to model it for WYSIWYG when GW has decided that it is no longer necessary to include these parts?
99
Post by: insaniak
Ventus wrote:So with the new codex, if you have a unit of hormagaunts and upgrade them with toxin sacs, do you have to model it for WYSIWYG when GW has decided that it is no longer necessary to include these parts?
You should, yes. Just as you should model plasma guns on Cadians, despite GW not including those in the box either.
But as usual, whether or not it is enforced is up to your opponent and/or the event rules.
25179
Post by: rocklord2004
WYSIWYG can always be fun too. I am going to paint radiation warning labels on some tiny pink flamingos for bigombs on my deffcoptas. My opinion is that as long as what you say it is stays uniform across your whole army your fine. Especially in cases where GW doesn't even make the model.
23433
Post by: schadenfreude
Samus_aran115 wrote:Janthkin wrote:Samus_aran115 wrote:None of my opponents care in terms of weapons. They know as well as I do that the Chaos Space marine set only comes with 1melta,1plasma and 1flamer. Therefore, I use the melta and the plasma as meltas, and they never care,so whatever.
I use terminators as obliterators, and I use a vindicator as a rhino.
That's the extent of my proxying, just because I don't have everything I need yet.
Although, I really do get pissed off when people use a ripper swarm as terminators and wraithlords as dreadnoughts,to name a few. My friend plays SoB and 100% of his army is proxies. Die in a fire IG,nids and orks as SoB....
I'm confused - you're fine with Terminators as Oblits, but object to Wraithlords as Dreads? Why?
Honestly, I'm often happier with proxies from outside the army being played - less change of confusion, as a Wraithlord isn't ever part of a (C) SM army, but a Terminator could be.
I see your point. The thing is, my termies have green stuff on them to look like obliterators, and I threw a bunch of weapons on them. They might as well be obliterators at that point.
That's true. I'd rather see sanguinary guard as raptors than rhinos as predators...
There is a huge difference between conversions and proxies.
If your converted terminators look like obliterators and can not be mistaken for terminators then it's a legitimate conversion, not a proxy. If you do the conversion right they might even look better than normal obliterators, if you do it poorly it will resemble little more than a glob of greenstuff and heavy weapons that looks like a great unclean one just took a dump on an obliterator.
I used converted Khorne Berzerkers as Sanguinary Guard today. They had space marine jump packs added, plastic wings from the tyranid gargoyle kit, swords and arms from a kit of khorne bloodletter deamons with Khorne Zerker shoulderpads over them, actual angelis bolters mounted on their jump packs, the faces of bloodletters placed over the face of my zerkers, and blood letter tounges sticking out of thier mask licking their hell blades/glaive encarmine, and I got nothing but complements on the unit today.
The only conversion in my army that anybody complained about was that I placed heads from WFB chaos warriors and khorne berzerkers on scout bikers, but upon taking a closer look at the model they would quickly recognize it as a scout biker.
Ventus wrote:I have a question about nid hormagaunts. in the old codex and old model kits, you could upgrade units with toxin sacs and there were bits in the kit for modelling them. In the new hormagaunt kit (now separating the two gaunt types) there are no longer any toxin sacs parts in the kit.
So with the new codex, if you have a unit of hormagaunts and upgrade them with toxin sacs, do you have to model it for WYSIWYG when GW has decided that it is no longer necessary to include these parts?
Take 2 pieces of green stuff, roll them into balls, and stick them between your hormaguants rear legs. Instant toxin sacs.
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Post by: warboss
schadenfreude wrote:
Take 2 pieces of green stuff, roll them into balls, and stick them between your hormaguants rear legs. Instant toxin sacs.
they may be sacs but i don't think they're filled with toxin if you put them there.
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Post by: helgrenze
My one army is a "Counts As" SM force. The Models are old Squats. I use the exo armors as Command (converted) and Honor guard, all with artificer armor.
Converting one to be a MoF with hand made C-beamer.
I use old Battletech weapons and arms for converting combi weapons, Jaegermech arms for combi meltas, marauder arms for combi plasma.
Planning on posting a list with pics soonish.
20052
Post by: Arrathon
let me ask you guys a question. I have tried very ahrd to make my models WYSIWYG for Ard' boyz. i made sure everything was exactly as the list said. I have all the exact correct models for everything. Now, the feller i play against yersterday plops his "blood angels" down on the board, and hands me his list.. their god damn space wolves with about 28 missle launchers glued here or there (on space hulk termies no less) and the Space hulk Librarian midel as Logan grimnar(sp) Should this of been allowed? Now yes i got my ass handed to me and there was alot of stuff i question as far as his measureing for frag grenades and whatnot, but i let it go as i just wanted to have fun. BUT it just burns my ass i spent all this money on my army to ensure it to be 100% WYSIYG and some power playing asshat plops 4 pounds of elmers glue on some models to make them Vampire space werewolves. IMO it dosen't seem right.
On a side note, said same player is here on dakka and yes buddy i am quiet sure you will read this post and not to concerned with your replies or thoughts. Other then that grats to all those Other people whom won yesterday.
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Post by: Sarigar
The TO is ultimately the one who makes the call. If you question someone's army, then bring it to the attention of the TO. From my experience, TO's aren't walking around looking to see if things are WYSIWYG, but are willing to abide by the rules packet if the issue is brought up to them by players.
Personally, I wouldn't field something like that, but Ard Boyz tends to bring out some things like you've described.
20052
Post by: Arrathon
Eh, the feller manning the store yesterday was to busy playing on his pc, while Mr i play vampire space werewolves was trying to rules lawyer everyone else while they were playing. Overall it was fun due to the large group of my own friends there. I will not be going back to that store as it was extremely over cliquey. and The Staff could really care less about what was going on. It really is sad as it is a beautiful and one of the biggest stores in the state. But i guess that is what gaming clubs and friends are for right?
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Post by: Sarigar
That, or ask the TO for a ruling.
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Post by: BaronIveagh
The problem that can really be a pain is minis where the stats and WYSIWYG don't always work. I've had plenty of times where there simply wasn't a place to glue grenades, for example, on an individual mini. Most of the unit clearly had them, but one or two men could not fit them. Or some units where the rules have changed since the minis were designed (a problem for SM in particular, since most of them were sculpted quite a while ago). Do we alter the mini, only to have to re-alter them with the next edition?
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Post by: imweasel
insaniak wrote:Asking on forums for specific answers to specific WYSIWYG questions is ultimately pointless.
WYSIWYG is really very simple: When your opponent looks at the model, what he sees should be what is presented in the army list.
Conversions are fine, so long as they are recognisable. 'Counts as' is fine, so long as it is clear, consistent, and not confusing to your opponent.
All that WYSIWYG is supposed to do is make the game easier and less confusing for both players.
This is the best quote for the discussion of WYSIWYG.
IG player has modeled his units with grenade launchers, but every one of them in the army is a melta? Fine. Some units are grenade launchers and some are meltas? Doesn't meet my WYSIWYG requirement.
You kit bashed a Logan model from the space wolf terminator box? Fine.
Your chaos space marines 'count as' space wolves? Fine.
You kit bashed a model that GW does not produce from non-citadel models? Fine.
That last one is a bit tricky and not everyone is going to be ok with it. Trust me, if GW ever makes a Tcav model, I will dump what I have and buy them. Until then, I will make a model using what I can with what I got as close as I can.
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Post by: schadenfreude
helgrenze wrote:My one army is a "Counts As" SM force. The Models are old Squats. I use the exo armors as Command (converted) and Honor guard, all with artificer armor.
Converting one to be a MoF with hand made C-beamer.
I use old Battletech weapons and arms for converting combi weapons, Jaegermech arms for combi meltas, marauder arms for combi plasma.
Planning on posting a list with pics soonish.
Why did you ever buy a Jaegermech, I can't think of a single more useless unit in battletech or 40k.
Chopping it to pieces has got to be the single most effective use of a Jaegermech
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Post by: helgrenze
schadenfreude wrote:helgrenze wrote:My one army is a "Counts As" SM force. The Models are old Squats. I use the exo armors as Command (converted) and Honor guard, all with artificer armor.
Converting one to be a MoF with hand made C-beamer.
I use old Battletech weapons and arms for converting combi weapons, Jaegermech arms for combi meltas, marauder arms for combi plasma.
Planning on posting a list with pics soonish.
Why did you ever buy a Jaegermech, I can't think of a single more useless unit in battletech or 40k.
Chopping it to pieces has got to be the single most effective use of a Jaegermech
Actually, I caught a "Going out of Business" sale at a Game store and picked up a couple of blisters of spare mech parts... arms and weapons. And found a use for them.
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Post by: Accolade
I grappled the shoggoth wrote:You cannot deploy a vindicator on the table during dawn of war, I dont think baal preds can go out, as scouts doesnt let you do that, only infiltrate. Sounds like you got outright cheated.
Yeah, that's definitely possible. I think it was more a case of the guy not really knowing how to play dawn of war (and to be honest, I wasn't super familiar with it either). It worked out in the end, I managed to win the game and even killed a squad of assault marines with my rough riders!
I'm in agreement with insaniak, that quote about WYSIWYG sums up the whole argument pretty well
16525
Post by: mrwittwer
I think insaniak also really has it down. I was worried about all of my stuff not being 100% WYSIWYG for ard boyz but i made everything clear enough to know what it was, and the same went for my opponents.
In my local ard boyz there were 3 necron players that showed up and one of them was using a modified necron destroyer lord. Basicaly he used the lower parts of a wraith and then green stuffed more larger rings and put a necron lord torso on top, so it was kinda like a necron wraith and said it was a destroyer lord. He also fielded a regular necron lord and it was plainly obvious what he was using and there were no mistakes at all.
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Post by: Brother Ramses
Blackmoor, I am guess you were at Empire Games this weekend with Mundar?
Did you see the player that was playing a Demon list that nothing was WYSIWYG with the exception of just a few models? Skull Crusher was a headless, armless model on some type of Lizard mount. Some other unit was 5 or 6 Fantasy Chaos Knights mounted on round dread bases.
I don't understand how he was able to play. Granted I beat him, but that was because his list was pretty horrendous.
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Post by: vagorin
Arrathon wrote:let me ask you guys a question. I have tried very ahrd to make my models WYSIWYG for Ard' boyz. i made sure everything was exactly as the list said. I have all the exact correct models for everything. Now, the feller i play against yersterday plops his "blood angels" down on the board, and hands me his list.. their god damn space wolves with about 28 missle launchers glued here or there (on space hulk termies no less) and the Space hulk Librarian midel as Logan grimnar(sp) Should this of been allowed? Now yes i got my ass handed to me and there was alot of stuff i question as far as his measureing for frag grenades and whatnot, but i let it go as i just wanted to have fun. BUT it just burns my ass i spent all this money on my army to ensure it to be 100% WYSIYG and some power playing asshat plops 4 pounds of elmers glue on some models to make them Vampire space werewolves. IMO it dosen't seem right.
On a side note, said same player is here on dakka and yes buddy i am quiet sure you will read this post and not to concerned with your replies or thoughts. Other then that grats to all those Other people whom won yesterday.
I wouldn't play the asshat even for fun. This hobby is a Hobby and fun. If someone plops something like that down I wont play it. I'm in the middle of collecting all my wolves. I have a ways to go and I wont subject anyone to that stuff. I have more pride than that.
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Post by: Guitardian
What do you guys think of non-GW standard weapons as 'counts as' (or really old GW stuff)?
... For instance, when the gun Barrel of my old predator snapped off and got lost, I used a cut piece of sprue as a long, triangular barrel, with a circular whole painted at the end just as a tip of the hat to the laws of physics. It obviously doesn't look like the origional autocannon but it's been painted into place and still looks cool and everyone knows it is what it is. I have in the past used my squats as ratling snipers (may as well do something with em, right?) they are GW figs and they carry somewhat ambiguous old school lasguns with very long barrels, so it may as well be a snip rifle since they are much longer than the modern models...
where is the line drawn? My old school marine missile launchers are about twice as big as the modern day one... does that make them obselete?
Cups as drop pods though...? feth that guy. Drop pods are abusive as it is and that's just the rules not the modelling. but a CUP?! have some respect that everyone else at least tried. I could see a scratch built card one that took some effort and at least fits the dimensions, but a cup doesn't look like a drop pod to me, doesn't have the same dimensions (which IS a factor with TLOS) any more than a brick looks like a land raider or a penny looks like an ork boy. Have some self respect, y'know? Your mathhammered proxy army of shoeboxes, legos, pennies, cups, bricks and so on may win the battles but I don't think anyone will want to remember playing against you.
I do like cardstock rhinos though. just glue a spare bolter on the top and get the dimensions right and when its painted it will blend right in (and not cost 30 bucks either)
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Post by: themrsleepy
since its a wysiwyg thread thought i would ask, pariah models are techincally equipped with the same guass blaster as an immortal, with T5, like an immortal. If i fielded all my pariahs as immortals would that count for wysiwyg for ard boys? Technically it satifies the criteria for counts as, satifies armed with weapon equivalents, and all equipped identically. According to what ive read, i just dont count the WS 'option' of the weapon. Just curious thanks.
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Post by: Mannahnin
As long as you're not using any actual Immortal models, and ALL of the Immortals you're fielding are the Pariah models, it should be okay. Just be clear in explaining it to your opponent before and during the game.
If you have a mix of different models BOTH counting as Immortals (like, two squads of "real" Immortals, then adding in a squad of Pariah counts-as Immortals because you don't own a third squad of Immortals), I would definitely not be okay with it.
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Post by: themrsleepy
well mannahnin i liked the first half, but the second half was exactly what i was planning I have converted 5 warriors to immortals, after doubling up some warrior guns and beefing up shoulder pads, theyre decent conversion, but if i was to field immortals, i d want two squads, so my pariahs would have to be the second :( I dont think Im going to run them anyway for this ard boys, the list im running is over in the army list section, posted up today. But, I would prolly agree that they should match, back to conversions till i get plastic immortals!
29374
Post by: syanticraven
Im okay with proxying weapons on a model. (Ie the gun/power weapon on your commander)
Models are expensive, if it just so happens you glued and painted it when using another list then I dont expect you to go buy another one just to satisfy WYSIWYG.
However proxying models I dont like, especially obvious models.
Although I will allow it on the eve of tournaments and friends are just wanting to test out a 'unit' to see if they will be useful or worth buying.
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Post by: ShivanAngel
I have a different situation as far as base sizes go.
For the skaven hell pit abomination. There is no GW model for it, so im electing to sculpt my own. The thing is pretty huge (as i envisioned it). In the skaven book it doesnt give a base size, however in the errata/FAQ they "recommend" a 60x100mm base. They did mention that as long as it wasnt to outlandish deviating on this was ok.
I put it on a 80x120mm base because that is what it would fit on. I havent found a friendly that has an issue with this, but am wondering if TO's would.
A bigger base can make it more vulnerable, because its easier to scatter on it or hit its base. You can also get more model into base contact to attack it. The other end of this is it gets to attack all models in base contact, so it gets a few more hits.
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Post by: Mannahnin
That's a toughie. Particularly since the Abomb is such a nasty model, that opponents are more likely to be unhappy with it. The size you've given seems pretty reasonable. If I were running one I'd probably try my damnedest to use the recommended size, to minimize the chance of objections.
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Post by: Alpharius
Mannahnin wrote:That's a toughie. Particularly since the Abomb is such a nasty model, that opponents are more likely to be unhappy with it. The size you've given seems pretty reasonable. If I were running one I'd probably try my damnedest to use the recommended size, to minimize the chance of objections.
It is nice to have something that at least has the whiff of officialdom to it...
18176
Post by: Guitardian
Give him a titan base! woo hoo!
17659
Post by: njpc
ShivanAngel wrote:I have a different situation as far as base sizes go.
For the skaven hell pit abomination. There is no GW model for it, so im electing to sculpt my own. The thing is pretty huge (as i envisioned it). In the skaven book it doesnt give a base size, however in the errata/FAQ they "recommend" a 60x100mm base. They did mention that as long as it wasnt to outlandish deviating on this was ok.
I put it on a 80x120mm base because that is what it would fit on. I havent found a friendly that has an issue with this, but am wondering if TO's would.
A bigger base can make it more vulnerable, because its easier to scatter on it or hit its base. You can also get more model into base contact to attack it. The other end of this is it gets to attack all models in base contact, so it gets a few more hits.
Popular based at the North East GT scene for an adomination is a chariot base. Chariot bases seem fair, and are 50x100 if memory serves me correctly. My abomination is on the Chariot base, and a buddies from another club are also. 60x100 in the FAQ recommendation is also more than enough. Once you get up to 80-120mm, wow, that's pretty big. Is a TO going to complain? Likely not. Is your opponent going to ask you about it, likely so.
Problem is the Abom is an awesome model, along with its roll and move, its has incredible abilities that are game changing. If rumors turn to reality (grain of salt here) and true line of sight happens in fantasy, you will have a lot of complaints. You could basically use your abomination to block line of sight to almost a unit and a half of clanrats and block and entire plague furnace. A bigger base cannot make it more vulnerable, as the abmonination does not scatter. It directs its movement.
Bottom line: as a skaven player myself, if you have sculpted it, and it looks A-right, i'd smile and given you props. But if you plop it down, and it looks like you sculpted it to block los. I'd get an organize to make a call OR just ask you to use a chariot base for representation in game. Ironically yes, I always have a spare 50mm, and chariot base. I've offered thse to my opponent when they have awesome models and I am nervous about paint/ bumping a model when it gets close to a table edge.
Regarding WYSIWYG: My armies are always WYSIWYG. But do I expect my opponent to? Not really. If they have a clear easy to read army roster, and I have it in my hand and know what the models are, I do not really care. If there is a minor concern (vehicle that has different sponsors) but its on the roster. i'm still good.
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Post by: The Night Stalker
When all of my forces are WYSIWYG I expect my opponent to do the same.
465
Post by: Redbeard
MVBrandt wrote:
WYSIWYG is almost never required, anywhere.
You know, except in the rules.
Codex Space Marines, page 127: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model."
Codex Chaos Space Marines, page 89: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model."
Codex Eldar, page 59: "Remember that you cannot field models that are equipped with weapons or wargear not shown on the model."
Codex Orks, page 94: "Any upgrades that are taken must be shown on the model if possible."
In the world of modern 40k, where you give your opponent the army list ... it's more about having a painted army, than it is making sure those veterans have lasguns or shotguns modeled on them, or making sure all of your combi-weapons are perfectly modeled.
Puritanical opponents and jackasses are exceptions to the rule, and certainly not ones to be reinforced.
Why is it that you feel the need to insult and act condescending towards other players who want to play the game by the rules? I'm seeing this in more and more threads. It comes across as If my opponent doesn't opt to ignore the same rules I think should be ignored, he's " TFG" or " WAAC" or whatever other label you chose to apply.
In practice, I've never had a problem letting other people proxy models, or use weapons that weren't on their models, especially not in friendly games. But in a tournament setting (that is the forum we're reading), if the tournament rules call for WYSIWYG, then isn't the player who knowingly violates these rules the one exhibiting poor behaviour, not the opponent who asks that the stated rules be enforced?
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Post by: Samus_aran115
Is it okay to use raptors as assault marines? They've got the same stuff,so...
14863
Post by: MasterSlowPoke
They're a little evil looking, but hey maybe your chapter rolls that way.
443
Post by: skyth
Redbeard wrote:Why is it that you feel the need to insult and act condescending towards other players who want to play the game by the rules? I'm seeing this in more and more threads. It comes across as If my opponent doesn't opt to ignore the same rules I think should be ignored, he's "TFG" or "WAAC" or whatever other label you chose to apply.
It's been going on as long as there have been gaming forums on the internet...At least as long as I've been hanging out. Warseer is notorious for that style of 'argument'. You're seeing it more now on Dakka because before people who made those sort of 'arguments' got heckled and piled on by the regular posters.
Typically when I see those sort of comments (You're a bad person if you don't play the way I want to) then I report it as the personal attack and bullying that it is.
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Post by: Ugavine
A tournament is a different environment to playing with friends at a local club. If the Tourney has a WYSIWYG rule then that's their entitlement and players should stick to that.
I like to see WYSIWYG, including on my own models, but as someone mentioned above, models are expensive and you can't build every option. Plus some things are so similar. If playing a casual game and someone started arguing over something trivial I'd pack up and play someone else. I'm not in the hobby for that.
But certainly tell your opponent what you are playing, even give them a copy of your list or leave it where you can both see it (that's what I do).
I think the following is perfectly acceptable though;
Ork Boyz as 'Ard Boyz
regular Space Marines as Space Wolf Blood Claws/Grey Wolves
same model can be used for either Ork Weirdboy or Old Zogswort
Shoota/Blasta/Slugga/Big Shoota - any could be a Kustom Mega-Blasta (it's Kustom Ork tech!)
Sluggas as Shootas (but have to be some marking if unit has mixed guns)
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Post by: nkelsch
Ugavine wrote:
Ork Boyz as 'Ard Boyz
regular Space Marines as Space Wolf Blood Claws/Grey Wolves
same model can be used for either Ork Weirdboy or Old Zogswort
Shoota/Blasta/Slugga/Big Shoota - any could be a Kustom Mega-Blasta (it's Kustom Ork tech!)
Sluggas as Shootas (but have to be some marking if unit has mixed guns)
Ork boyz as 'ard boyz is unacceptable. Armor save is very relevant and there is a distinct difference between +6 and +4. And it is not like you can say 'all boyz are 'ard as it is not an option. Maybe Scouts can be terminators? Model your 'ardboyz.
Saying any random gun is a KMB is also unacceptable. BIG SHOOTAS are standardized as much as other weapons are for other armies. It is not appropriate to model a KAN or a Kopter with a Big shoota and call it 'either'. Snazzguns are different, but a Snazzgun is tied to a very specific model type who cannot have a KMB or Big Shoota. And that model would need both a Nob 2-wound build as well as 'eavy armor to make him WYSIWYG. Remember, KMBs are basically plasmaguns... So unless you can call a heavy bolter a Plasmacannon, you can't call a Big shoota a KMB.
Sluggas and Shootas need to be WYSIWYG. They are the core of every ork army and hardly ever is someone using ONLY sluggas or ONLY shootas so saying 'all boyz are shootas' doesn't cut it. No markings... no post-it notes. These units need to be correct for consistency. Combine with your 'ard boy policy, you have just made your ork army unplayable. You Are now attempting to have AoBR orks 'proxy' as shoota boyz and 'ard boyz with no attempt to model except for some supposed markings and a spit-handshake that everything is what you says it is.
Orks as an army are already very hard for opponents to distinguish units from each other. If anything it is one of the more important armies that needs to be 100% WYSIWYG in order to be playable. And since ork boyz are numerous and we have so many modeling advantages from our bitz box, it is easier than any army to just pick up some discount AoBR toroso and attach every extra gun we get to a torso so we can actually model EVERY weapon option from our boxes. Our models are inexpensive and we CAN build every option.
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Post by: mikhaila
I think the following is perfectly acceptable though;
Ork Boyz as 'Ard Boyz
regular Space Marines as Space Wolf Blood Claws/Grey Wolves
same model can be used for either Ork Weirdboy or Old Zogswort
Shoota/Blasta/Slugga/Big Shoota - any could be a Kustom Mega-Blasta (it's Kustom Ork tech!)
Sluggas as Shootas (but have to be some marking if unit has mixed guns)
No. All this means is people would sink to the lowest common denominator.
Black reach boyz as 'ardboyz, Why model it?
Who cares what color/models your SM has? Play any chapter you want.
If it's a special character, do something to let your opponent know.
And all the lazy people will use big shooters from black reach
And everyone would use black reach sluggas for shooters.
This would make for a very confusing army.
18176
Post by: Guitardian
I don't like the 'missile launcher counts as lascannon' aproach personally, but minor things like if your Guard squad has the frag grenades or not I wouldn't worry about. We don't really want to be magnetizing grenades for the sake of WYSIWYG, and I wouldn't want to have to add or remove between games for something so little and trivial. The main weapon, I prefer to be represented... but there are plenty of upgrades that can be left ambiguous without being annoyingly distracting to remember. A heavy bolter is one thing, a suit of artificer armor is a little more vague. And a Swooping Hawk exarch's sunrifle or talon looks no different from his lasblaster last I checked...
so there will always be little details that simply cannot be modelled without a lot of hassle. Let those slide.
Saying that your vehicle is actually a different one is pretty bogus in my opinion because of TLOS and the fact that every vehicle has a specifically designed size and dimensions that do make a difference (like sponsons, hatches, etc)
Still we play the games we can get, and yeah I've played against SW made of legs on bases with no idea where the melta gun is he just marked it on the base with a pencil, just because I wanted to play and that was the only guy left without an opponent (for obvious reasons).
I look at it like Magic Card proxies... is it done? yes. Is it accepted? Grudgingly... Is it legal... NO.. but people let it slide on minor details. Magic players don't demand that everyone use mint condition cards either (to make sure the frayed corner doesn't give you unfair advantage knowing where it is in the deck for instance) They just want the card to be what it is for visual recognition purposes.
There's already so much to keep track of in this game and I consider it inconsiderate to my opponent to proxy things. He already has enough to worry about and keep track of.
23793
Post by: Acardia
When I play it's always WYSIWYG. It may not all be painted, and I'm doing some serious over the top converting to my Tzeentch themed soul grinder(Gave it a rail gun, skyray missle racks ect) But it doesn't cahnge the rules just looks more chaosy.
Until I mod my hormogaunts they are nekkid, I do like the Idea of the toxin sac between the legs though...
27014
Post by: Disarray
I have a couple questions regarding WYSIWYG, that I haven't seen covered (or answered) here, and making a new thread seems like making a mess of the place, so I'll just post it here. Pretty new to 40k, been modeling/painting my orks (VERY casually) for a little over a year, and have really only played house games with a group of friends, but most of us are getting our armies modeled/painted in enough numbers, and getting familiar enough with the rules that we should be ready to play somewhere soon, and none of us want to be TFGs. Onto the questions...
Red Paint Job. Does the whole model have to be red ? what about just a spot of red anywhere ? shades of red ? ? Technically, orange (part of my color scheme) is a product of red, so should that count for RPJ ?
What about things that are modeled onto a piece, that you DON'T want to use ? Such as, the Trukk I have is equipped with a boarding plank, quite honestly because it looks silly without it, there just a gaping hole on the side of the trukk that doesn't make sense. Since its on the model, do I have to use it ?
Now, obviously I'm not asking you guys, how the people at our local store play, or how tourneys around my area are played. Really just curious how you most commonly see issues like these resolved, so we can go as prepared as possible. Ty!
29374
Post by: syanticraven
I think it has to red on it somewhere.
As for extra stuff I do not think they have to count. As they could just be for design.
99
Post by: insaniak
Disarray wrote:Red Paint Job. Does the whole model have to be red ? what about just a spot of red anywhere ? shades of red ? ? Technically, orange (part of my color scheme) is a product of red, so should that count for RPJ ?
The whole model doesn't have to be red, but it should be obvious.
You'll find as well that it's not uncommon for people to substitute another colour where it better fits their colour scheme. The key is just to make sure that your vehicles with the upgrade are clearly distinguishable from those without.
What about things that are modeled onto a piece, that you DON'T want to use ?
What your opponent sees on the table should be representative of what you are using. That's what WYSIWYG means.
29508
Post by: BossDakka
I have to disagree about the ork list being easy to make WYSIWYG with little to no money. I am working on 2 different armies (Orks and Wolves). For my normal game sizes and play style both my list are pretty much spot on for WYSIWYG.
Now, my squads are color coded and I try not to do any crazy proxies/count's as. For me, I don't own enough lootas to run my ard boyz list. I am not using burna's for ard boyz, so I am using them and the default "meks" you get in the boxes to fill out the units. and I normally don't run very many shoota boyz. I am using some dual pistol and dual "odd shooty weapon" boyz to "count as" shootas to fill out the the last 14 models for the 2 units(I have some of them using storm bolters and other marine shooters). I am in the process of painting my orks to table quality, but I have painted rings on the bases to color code the squad.
I think all in all I have 14 odd shoota boyz and 10ish proxy lootas. Not bad out of 140 boyz models.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
BossDakka wrote:I have to disagree about the ork list being easy to make WYSIWYG with little to no money. I am working on 2 different armies (Orks and Wolves). For my normal game sizes and play style both my list are pretty much spot on for WYSIWYG.
Now, my squads are color coded and I try not to do any crazy proxies/count's as. For me, I don't own enough lootas to run my ard boyz list. I am not using burna's for ard boyz, so I am using them and the default "meks" you get in the boxes to fill out the units. and I normally don't run very many shoota boyz. I am using some dual pistol and dual "odd shooty weapon" boyz to "count as" shootas to fill out the the last 14 models for the 2 units(I have some of them using storm bolters and other marine shooters). I am in the process of painting my orks to table quality, but I have painted rings on the bases to color code the squad.
I think all in all I have 14 odd shoota boyz and 10ish proxy lootas. Not bad out of 140 boyz models.
Lootas/burnas is one of the boxes where we really make our money back because you can buy AoBR boyz for DIRT CHEAP from bitzsellers and ebay and cut off the arms and then combine the torsos with the pretty reasonable loota/burna box and get: 4 Burnas, 4 Lootaz, 1 Big Shoota boy, 1 Rokkit Boy, 1 KMB mek out of the box.
Same can be done with Shootas. You can buy a Box of the dual/armed orks and some AoBR and get a full set of Sluggas and shootas out of every box. Also, every swap meet I have ever been to has BAGS of ork arms from the days of 3rd edition and usually that bag is filled with shoota arms. Get some shoota arms, AoBR bodies and you can crank out dozens of shoot aboyz for dirt cheap. You can find them everywhere.
Also, if you keep an eye out, you can often find lots of extra ork torsos, like BW gunners and fantasy orks that are all over the place to attach arms to to maximize bit usage out of every box.
Dual Pistols should be slugga boyz if anything... Because a dual pistol model has 2 CCW and can only shoot 1 gun at a time. Much closer to slugga boyz than shoota boyz and less confusing.
We get away with maximizing our boxed sets due to the way our whole army is based on the single wound boy torso and how modular our orks have been for over 10 years. When the kits give you dozens of extra arms, and AoBR boyz are cheap and plentiful... you can make WYSIWYG easy and cheap.
Red Paint Job: There should be 'something' to distinguish it. If you are BAD MOONZ and you paint black flames... then *ALL* black flames should be Red paint job, and things without black flames are 'not' red paint job. I have blue armor with red/yellow flames. If it has flames, it is redpaint job. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Don;t say something is redpaint then say 'these 3 with the flames as well but they don't have RPJ.
Overmodeling: Overmodeling is a form of proxying. If I see a wrecker and a boarding plank, I will expect it. Usually people accept it if you say 'none of my vehicles anywhere have these upgrades. If you mix and match, you in trouble. The goal should be to learn to use magnets and make upgrades removable to meet WYSIWYG. It is worth the effort.
782
Post by: DarthDiggler
Let me understand. Is it alright to not have certain, everyday wargear not modeled on the unit? Such as every IG vehicle has smoke launchers and a searchlight. Can I have some modeled without and that be ok? Every Marine comes with frag grenades. Do I need to model all of them with grenades now? or is it alright to not have the grenades on them?
I understand the importance of having a lascannon razorback have the lascannons and not heavy bolters that are called lascannons, but what about the common wargear that is not bought, but allowed by the codex for every unit or model for free? Is the rule that if you pay for it it must be modeled?
29348
Post by: Hacksaaw
Hmmm, calling someone on the difference between ard boyz and regular boyz? thats not that easy to make obvious, and is going way to far. most of the ork models have a decent amount of armor bits anyway and with the power of mork and gork can easilly turn into a 4+ armor save on any given day.
what is important is making it so that your opponent can differentiate which units are which. and that your straightforward in telling him what they all have.
but overall the units should be mostly what they are intended to be with any additions, figs that easilly fit in.
i have no problem if a few orks in the shoota mob are sluggas, Fantasy had a nice rule where half the unit had to have the proper weapons and kit. in 40k things like special weapons should be distinct and the modeling make sense so your opponent doesnt get surprised by a bolter marine suddenly popping out and lasering a tank from 40 inches away.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
Hacksaaw wrote:Hmmm, calling someone on the difference between ard boyz and regular boyz? thats not that easy to make obvious, and is going way to far. most of the ork models have a decent amount of armor bits anyway and with the power of mork and gork can easilly turn into a 4+ armor save on any given day.
Sorry. 'ardboyz have official models. It is easy to make obvious. There is a signifigant difference from a 6+ boy and 4+ boy. AoBR boyz have very insignifigant amount of armor nothing makes them 4+.
We only have 2 types of weapons and two types of armor. And all the boyz are usefull and easy to make. There is no valid excuse for expecting proxies for the most common unit in the ork army as all the excuses for why not having them (all my boyz are the same, I only use one type of weapon, I only use one type of armor) don't work as no ork player will take all one weapon or one armor especially when 'ard boyz are 0-1.
Trying to tell people to 'the red ones are 'ard boyz and the blue ones are shootas' why not use tiddlywinks? why bother even having models? Let's just play 40k with checkers.
19370
Post by: daedalus
DarthDiggler wrote:Let me understand. Is it alright to not have certain, everyday wargear not modeled on the unit? Such as every IG vehicle has smoke launchers and a searchlight. Can I have some modeled without and that be ok? Every Marine comes with frag grenades. Do I need to model all of them with grenades now? or is it alright to not have the grenades on them?
I understand the importance of having a lascannon razorback have the lascannons and not heavy bolters that are called lascannons, but what about the common wargear that is not bought, but allowed by the codex for every unit or model for free? Is the rule that if you pay for it it must be modeled?
Between Adpeticon, 'Ard Boyz, and numerous local tournaments, I've never had anyone question my Chimeras lack of smoke launchers or my complete lack of grenades on my figures. Mandatory equipment seems to be mostly considered unnecessary to model, though you never know what some of the more, shall we say, "competitive" players might bust out on you. Automatically Appended Next Post: Concerning the Ork Boyz/ 'ard Boyz discussion, how do you feel about Carapace armor for CCS/Vet squads? There is no real carapace armor model, unless you pick up Kasrkins, Stormtroopers, or Valk boxes and use the heavy bolter gunner bodies. Kasrkins aren't really suitable for Vets, as their lasguns look more like what I'd call hellguns or hot-shots, Stormtroopers are stormtroopers, and The gunners are static one-piece torso/legs without variation, infantry arms don't fit perfectly on them, and not to mention that you have to buy a Valk kit to get two.
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Post by: BossDakka
Well if someone is gonna cry that 6 boyz outta of a 25 man squad are not WYSIWYG, they can Zog Off! I refuse to proxy entire squads. Its a partial fill to expand a unit to a larger size for the points costs. And I used my prize support from the first round to actually drop the proxy count down. None of my opponents seemed to have an issue with the modelling.
My Wolf army is completely WYSIWYG, to the point of making combi-meltas for the units that have them.
As for the tiddlywink comment, the color codes are more for the mass combats. When you have 50 orks in a pile on some poor suckers deployment area, its nice to be able to pick up the right models.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
BossDakka wrote:Well if someone is gonna cry that 6 boyz outta of a 25 man squad are not WYSIWYG, they can Zog Off! I refuse to proxy entire squads. Its a partial fill to expand a unit to a larger size for the points costs. And I used my prize support from the first round to actually drop the proxy count down. None of my opponents seemed to have an issue with the modelling.
If you are talking about 'ard boyz, you broke the rules of the tournament, burdened your opponent with unauthorized proxies and do not deserve to win the prize.
Next time, Fix your proxies with your own money before you show up to an event where you explicitly do not intend to follow the rules and burden your opponent.
If you played where I played, you would have been disqualified... or at least have those proxy models come down with instant death upon beginning of the game. Rules is rules and you broke them.
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Post by: whitedragon
nkelsch wrote:Hacksaaw wrote:Hmmm, calling someone on the difference between ard boyz and regular boyz? thats not that easy to make obvious, and is going way to far. most of the ork models have a decent amount of armor bits anyway and with the power of mork and gork can easilly turn into a 4+ armor save on any given day.
Sorry. 'ardboyz have official models. It is easy to make obvious. There is a signifigant difference from a 6+ boy and 4+ boy. AoBR boyz have very insignifigant amount of armor nothing makes them 4+.
Respectfully disagree.
19370
Post by: daedalus
nkelsch wrote:BossDakka wrote:Well if someone is gonna cry that 6 boyz outta of a 25 man squad are not WYSIWYG, they can Zog Off! I refuse to proxy entire squads. Its a partial fill to expand a unit to a larger size for the points costs. And I used my prize support from the first round to actually drop the proxy count down. None of my opponents seemed to have an issue with the modelling.
If you are talking about 'ard boyz, you broke the rules of the tournament, burdened your opponent with unauthorized proxies and do not deserve to win the prize.
Next time, Fix your proxies with your own money before you show up to an event where you explicitly do not intend to follow the rules and burden your opponent.
If you played where I played, you would have been disqualified... or at least have those proxy models come down with instant death upon beginning of the game. Rules is rules and you broke them.
I'm torn here. On one hand, rules are rules and a few pieces of greenstuf/plasticard makes perfectly reasonable "ard Boyz", but on the other hand, I see no possible way that 6 regulars in a mob of 25 could cause confusion especially since there's no legal way I'm aware of to have a "split squad" like that. Chances are you'd not even notice that those 6 have less armor on them. I know I never can tell the difference when I'm fighting Orks. Of course, at the 'ard Boyz I went to, I dealt with a player who gave me the typcial "oh, ignore those hunter killer missiles... oh, and this set of missile launchers is actually lascannons." I've seen his list, I have a pencil, and I've written "missle launchers -> lascannons" on it next to the unit that isn't accurate along with "!H-K Missiles" by the Rhinos.
If I can't overcome any confusion I suffer from WYSIWYG and win anyway, I feel it's my fault and I need to improve my game. I'd probably play against someone who had an army made of differently colored bottlecaps if I ran into one. I think is bad form to deny someone the game just because they didn't have time to get 20% of a squad of Orks up to "code". Having that been said, my stuff was all WYSIWYG up to a point. Anything I pay for and the default weapon are modelled. My vets look different from my Infantry. My CCS had carapace armor from my Valkyries. If you tell me I need grenades on my guardsmen, I'm rolling my eyes at you. If you try to get me disqualified over it, we're going to have words.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
whitedragon wrote:
Respectfully disagree.
Then my scouts can be terminators or space marines because weapons and armor no longer matter, even if GW makes models for them.
Or is the line, "Everything should be WYSIWYG, unless I personally don't feel like it for my models..."
'ard boyz exist. 4+ ork armor exists. AoBR do not have 4+ armor and cannot in any capacity be used as 4+ armor without PROXYING. And if Proxies are not allowed, neither are AoBR being 'ard boyz.
19370
Post by: daedalus
nkelsch,
How would you best address my issue with Carapace Armor then? I've been ebaying up the Valk gunners as suitable "count-as", but by the rules, I have nothing to represent that upgrade. Indeed, I can't technically even figure out how to legally field Veterans then, because GW doesn't sell anything called a "Veteran Squad".
411
Post by: whitedragon
nkelsch wrote:whitedragon wrote:
Respectfully disagree.
Then my scouts can be terminators or space marines because weapons and armor no longer matter, even if GW makes models for them.
Or is the line, "Everything should be WYSIWYG, unless I personally don't feel like it for my models..."
'ard boyz exist. 4+ ork armor exists. AoBR do not have 4+ armor and cannot in any capacity be used as 4+ armor without PROXYING. And if Proxies are not allowed, neither are AoBR being 'ard boyz.
Actually, a quick check of the GWUS site shows no 'Ard Boy models in the 40k Ork section.
1406
Post by: Janthkin
daedalus wrote:nkelsch,
How would you best address my issue with Carapace Armor then? I've been ebaying up the Valk gunners as suitable "count-as", but by the rules, I have nothing to represent that upgrade. Indeed, I can't technically even figure out how to legally field Veterans then, because GW doesn't sell anything called a "Veteran Squad".
This is actually one of my pet peeves when playing against Guard. It MATTERS whether that squad is Vets or just standard Guardsmen, after all.
For non-carapace Vets, either paint them different, or consider tapping a different IG range. If you're using plastic Cadians, see if you can find some of the old metal Cadians (they've been around longer, so have achieved Veteran status on their own).
My Steel Legion uses Death Korp models for Vets, but I don't expect everyone to be quite that insane.
19370
Post by: daedalus
Janthkin wrote:
For non-carapace Vets, either paint them different, or consider tapping a different IG range. If you're using plastic Cadians, see if you can find some of the old metal Cadians (they've been around longer, so have achieved Veteran status on their own).
Yeah, the way I usually get around that is just to not field both at the same time, which generally works out for player comprehension as well as tactically. I then have one squad painted differently in case I ever do decide to run them together. Unfortunately, I really don't have a strong like for catachans, and everything else is just so expensive in comparison.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
While I can using variant (older) models for carapace/noncarapace figures I use Praetorians. What would you suggest I use to show that some have carapace while others do not? I can tell my different units by markings on their bases but it wouldn't be obvious to a casual observer. Likewise my Vets have a different load out of special weapons than my normal troopers but that may not last long after casualties occur.
4298
Post by: Spellbound
WYSIWYG actually says you have to represent upgrades, not basic equipment.
CSM modelled with bp/ccw still have bolters, because they come with all three. CSM with bolters have bp/ccw because they come with all three.
A chaos rhino with a combi-weapon modelled onto it still has its basic twin-linked bolter - it comes with it for free. Even if I model them with no weapons, they come with a twin-linked bolter. I've seen GW DA rhinos with no weapons - they still have a storm bolter on top.
This allows you to model a space marine ripping a gaunt's head off, and still say he has a bolter even if there isn't one on the model.
1478
Post by: warboss
daedalus wrote:nkelsch,
How would you best address my issue with Carapace Armor then? I've been ebaying up the Valk gunners as suitable "count-as", but by the rules, I have nothing to represent that upgrade. Indeed, I can't technically even figure out how to legally field Veterans then, because GW doesn't sell anything called a "Veteran Squad".
that's why it's called a hobby. i don't know your modelling experience but you can add knee, arm, and crotch armor via little bits of plasticard or green stuff to regular cadians and they'll look like kasrkin without the hellguns. as for veterans, they're regular guardsmen with more skill and optional equipment. i've modelled them as IG with backpacks to differentiate them from the regular guys (easy to tell them from a simple glance). although i didn't get the idea from here, i've seen it repeated by various other IG players.
18176
Post by: Guitardian
I just painted carapace a different color representing a different material. say.. your average cadian is green, make the carapaced guys' plates metal colored for instance
1406
Post by: Janthkin
Leo_the_Rat wrote:While I can using variant (older) models for carapace/noncarapace figures I use Praetorians. What would you suggest I use to show that some have carapace while others do not? I can tell my different units by markings on their bases but it wouldn't be obvious to a casual observer. Likewise my Vets have a different load out of special weapons than my normal troopers but that may not last long after casualties occur.
Mordians, of course.
Alternatively, different colored epaulettes, braidwork, or even just different colored bands around their helmets. I've got a bunch of Praetorians, too - there's lots you can do to make units distinctive, while still looking coherent as an army.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
I thought of Mordians (especially since rumor says that their molds were the basis for Praetorians) but they still don't show carapace armor. They may look different from the normal troops but they still look like they're wearing normal cloth uniforms.
1406
Post by: Janthkin
Leo_the_Rat wrote:I thought of Mordians (especially since rumor says that their molds were the basis for Praetorians) but they still don't show carapace armor. They may look different from the normal troops but they still look like they're wearing normal cloth uniforms.
No rumor required - I can tell you that the models are EXACTLY the same, but for the helmet shapes.
Obviously, the Mordians have better anti-ballistic cloth.
4298
Post by: Spellbound
I also believe that you have to represent upgrades that you take in your army list, but the reverse isn't necessarily true - that veteran sergeant with a powerfist can actually be wielding a close combat weapon - in that case, though, you should be:
A) Consistent - don't have one model with a powerfist that's ACTUALLY a powerfist and another powerfist that's a ccw.
B) Let your opponent know beforehand and be very clear - and remind them throughout the game. I have CSM aspiring champions with powerfists that I often use, but rarely find I can afford the ridiculous amount of points they have to pay for a powerfist in this codex. I let my opponents know ahead of time, and also whenever they're near assaulting range as a reminder, in case they're avoiding close combat for fear of the upgrade.
19370
Post by: daedalus
warboss wrote:
that's why it's called a hobby. i don't know your modelling experience but you can add knee, arm, and crotch armor via little bits of plasticard or green stuff to regular cadians and they'll look like kasrkin without the hellguns. as for veterans, they're regular guardsmen with more skill and optional equipment. i've modelled them as IG with backpacks to differentiate them from the regular guys (easy to tell them from a simple glance). although i didn't get the idea from here, i've seen it repeated by various other IG players.
Unfortunately sketchy at best. There's a dakka modeling post where I tried to make a greenstuff commissar jacket with abysmal results, however, I've gotten a bit better since then. I don't think I could make them look nearly as sharp as kasrkin, but I think I could get the point across. That would at least give me bonus points for "he tried", if nothing else. I agree that the backpacks are a suitable way to make vets. I may try that in the future.
465
Post by: Redbeard
DarthDiggler wrote:Let me understand. Is it alright to not have certain, everyday wargear not modeled on the unit? Such as every IG vehicle has smoke launchers and a searchlight. Can I have some modeled without and that be ok? Every Marine comes with frag grenades. Do I need to model all of them with grenades now? or is it alright to not have the grenades on them?
I understand the importance of having a lascannon razorback have the lascannons and not heavy bolters that are called lascannons, but what about the common wargear that is not bought, but allowed by the codex for every unit or model for free? Is the rule that if you pay for it it must be modeled?
From the rules I quoted earlier, I believe the key word is 'upgrades'. Stuff that automatically comes with the unit is assumed to be there. Upgrades above those basics must be clearly modeled.
18176
Post by: Guitardian
How do you model veteran experience though? Or Psyker powers? Or the Machine Spirit? some upgrades can be overlooked.
99
Post by: insaniak
Redbeard wrote:From the rules I quoted earlier, I believe the key word is 'upgrades'. Stuff that automatically comes with the unit is assumed to be there. Upgrades above those basics must be clearly modeled.
But, once again, WYSIWYG isn't just about the rules. Its about making sure your army isn't confusing to either player.
7942
Post by: nkelsch
whitedragon wrote:
Actually, a quick check of the GWUS site shows no 'Ard Boy models in the 40k Ork section.
Next time... look harder...
Orks have had official 'ardboy models since 3rd edition. While you can make them by gathering up parts from the plastic box, you can also get the 3rd edition parts and make them.
And as it relates to 'carapace armor' and other units without official models... Not having one official model doesn't give the right to other models not to be WYSIWYG. if you want a unit which there are no models for, then you need to be creative and do your best to model them. The idea of using Valk gunners is a good 'counts as'. The idea of using AoBR as 'eavy armor is a bad 'Proxy'.
411
Post by: whitedragon
nkelsch wrote:whitedragon wrote:
Actually, a quick check of the GWUS site shows no 'Ard Boy models in the 40k Ork section.
Next time... look harder...
Are you f'ing kidding me? That bitz pack has Iron Gobs and Shoulder Pads, all of which come as extras on the boyz sprues, and are sprinkled liberally throughout the plastic orks. So now I'm even less convinced that 'Ard Boyz are a huge WYSIWYG step up from AOBR boyz, and I would have even less trouble accepting someone's AOBR boyz as 'Ard Boyz.
So how 'bout you look harder next time at the models you are complaining about before you go spouting off about WYSIWYG and "official" models. (By the way, there used to be 'Ard Boyz with armored up metal torso's that fit onto the ork plastics, but that bitz pack is not it.)
465
Post by: Redbeard
insaniak wrote:
But, once again, WYSIWYG isn't just about the rules. Its about making sure your army isn't confusing to either player.
I agree with you. But, I think that you'll find that the stuff that is default to a unit or model isn't confusing to begin with. No one is going to stare at your marines for 5 minutes trying to figure out if they've got their frag grenades - they're assumed to have them because they all do and there's no option to not have them.
27903
Post by: Leo_the_Rat
nkelsch wrote: if you want a unit which there are no models for, then you need to be creative and do your best to model them.
This comes very close to being insulting. I (almost) have the artistic ability of a dead termagant. I wouldn't even know where or how to start modeling carapace armor that would fit in with my praetorians. I even thought about using the old SAS looking storm troopers but they don't look like they have carapace armor either. If you have suggestions on an easy way to make my troops look like they are wearing carapace armor then I'm open to your help. The most creative thing I can think of at this point is to paint the helmets on some of my figures a different color. Then I have to dread the coming of a new codex that says I have to rearrange my troops once again (and therefore repaint). BTW did I mention that I don't paint well and I guess I'm one of those horrible people who actually wants to play the game as my first priority and making perfect looking figures is somewhere around 5th.
18176
Post by: Guitardian
@Leo_the_Rat... I think it's comendable that you recognize your shortcomings regarding creativity. However I believe you are being too hard on yourself. Anyone has the potential to get creative with something, it's in our human tool-using nature. You just might not think you're good at it because you don't let yourself try.
Second part of your post about painting the helmets a different color I think is just a fine idea, as it clearly defines the figure on a visual level. See! You got creative!
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Post by: nkelsch
whitedragon wrote:
Are you f'ing kidding me? That bitz pack has Iron Gobs and Shoulder Pads, all of which come as extras on the boyz sprues, and are sprinkled liberally throughout the plastic orks. So now I'm even less convinced that 'Ard Boyz are a huge WYSIWYG step up from AOBR boyz, and I would have even less trouble accepting someone's AOBR boyz as 'Ard Boyz.
So how 'bout you look harder next time at the models you are complaining about before you go spouting off about WYSIWYG and "official" models. (By the way, there used to be 'Ard Boyz with armored up metal torso's that fit onto the ork plastics, but that bitz pack is not it.)
We have had official 'ard boy models from GW since around 1999. GW expects an official 'ard boy to have two shoulderpads, a helmet, a chest and back armor and an iron gob.
Just like our BIG GUNZ and MANZ who do not have current plastic and our buggies who do not have current models. The 3rd edition models are official and available.
If you do not want to model the official upgrades the way they are supposed to be, you can do a conversion, but you have to do 'something' as a 6+ AoBR model is no more a 4+ than a Marine Scout 4+ is a 2+ terminator model.
You have no valid excuse to call AoBR 'ard boyz. It is a PROXY' and proxies are not allowed at events as it breaks WYSIWYG. Your models would either get a 6+ save or be removed from play for breaking the rules if you called AoBR 'ard boyz.
The Bitz pack is official... It even says 'ard boyz on it. Just because you were not around during 3rd edition and forget doesn't mean that somehow now orks are allowed to be 4+ with no modeling. They have just provided the tools to do it with the plastics.
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Post by: Arakasi
I have some 'ard boyz who are currently proxied as regular shootas - as I need the shootas, and have nowhere near enough for a 'ardboyz mob This is only temporary however...
I also magnetised an Ork Trukk so that I can WYSIWYG any combination of options as necessary. This was a lot of effort. It was more so that I wouldn't have to buy/build/paint more Trukks than I have to as I change my options.... Still, I wouldn't expect this extreme from others, especially in friendly games. It does solve the issue of overmodelling though! (Yes, I can remove that boarding plank if I'm not using it)
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Post by: Field Marshal Wiley
WYSIWYG has only really been brought up once to me at a local game store, I Have a platoon commander with a hand flamer dont know i always loved a hand held flame thrower i usually just say it's a bolt pistol but he insisted it's a hand flamer well i cant purchase them luckily he was a good enough sport instead of making me go with las pistol or continue arguing with me we just used the hand flamer rules from the new blood angels codex. Lots of fun toastin all those fire warriors !
18176
Post by: Guitardian
We used to make Death Skulls 'Kustom Kombi Weapons' out of all sorts of leftover bits from wherever... little bits of bolters, lasguns, chopped up sprues, whatever. Once painted up they look cool, and so random that the 'Kustom' part is kind of evident and hard to doubt what that monstrosity might be. Ork models seem to me a lot more customizable than more rigid armies like SM types. I would think just adding some shoulder pads to boyz is reasonable enough to make an arguement that it's an armored ork... "look! It has armor!". A lot of their vehicles are very abstract too so go wild with bits n pieces IMO.
I'm not so fond of Looted Wagons though, on principle. Most vehicles have a distinct precise shape and size, their 'signiature' for TLOS. A Looted Wagon can be the size of a rhino, a Leman, a predator, a land raider... That adds ambiguity and encourages people to no longer think WYSIWYG since all the models are different sizes with the same stats.
There are also several different variations of 'trukks'. The old ones from 3rd ed. speed freaks are about half the size as the newer ones, so small in fact that you could probably fit 3 boyz in there... but it is a legitimate GW model just older one. Deffrolla length, Battlewagons... all suffer from this ambiguity.
What is an 'official' Battlewagon? Long ago they didn't make them at all so every one you saw was a kit-bash of all sorts of random stuff, and all shapes and sizes. I think game pieces in a game that highly emphasizes ranges and LOS should at least have defined dimensions for the game pieces.
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Post by: insaniak
Redbeard wrote:I think that you'll find that the stuff that is default to a unit or model isn't confusing to begin with. No one is going to stare at your marines for 5 minutes trying to figure out if they've got their frag grenades - they're assumed to have them because they all do and there's no option to not have them.
Which is fine... if everyone can remember what every single unit in every single army is carrying by default.
To return to the situation in question just before, do you remember which vehicles from which codexes come with smoke launchers or storm bolters by default? I have absolutely no idea, in no small part because it keeps changing every edition and so after a while keeping it straight in your head is practically impossible. So if I see a vehicle that doesn't have these things, I'm going to assume that it's not equipped with them.
Basic weaponry on squads has a certain amount of leeway... and yeah, most people ignore grenades... but it's just common courtesy (or it should be) to try to make your models as clear as possible for your opponent.
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Post by: Spellbound
insaniak wrote:Redbeard wrote:
Which is fine... if everyone can remember what every single unit in every single army is carrying by default.
No need. Your opponent should have brought their codex with them, and a quick scan through it will tell you what their basic equipment is. Doesn't take long if you know what you're looking for - if you're concerned if they have smoke launchers as standard on their vehicles, just look at the vehicles.
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Post by: Guitardian
What's your guys thought on old school classic harlequins? A lot of those guys are modelled with weapons that don't exist any more or are not possible buys for their list. It's still a harlequin. I like to just tell my opponent they all have kisses as standard, even if the model has a power axe and a plasma pistol, or a laspistol, etc. Stuff you can't even take any more... I prefer that kind of leeway on something old and made of lead and that has been loved for so long and so obviously a harlequin by its paintjob... that the alternative of choping old classic models up just because a codex got outdated. Thoughts?
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
No one would care about that.
99
Post by: insaniak
Spellbound wrote:No need. Your opponent should have brought their codex with them, and a quick scan through it will tell you what their basic equipment is. Doesn't take long if you know what you're looking for - if you're concerned if they have smoke launchers as standard on their vehicles, just look at the vehicles.
There's also no need if your opponent's army is WYSIWYG... which also removes the need to read his codex before the game to find out what everything is supposed to be equipped with.
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Post by: Space_Potato
nkelsch wrote:You have no valid excuse to call AoBR 'ard boyz. It is a PROXY' and proxies are not allowed at events as it breaks WYSIWYG. Your models would either get a 6+ save or be removed from play for breaking the rules if you called AoBR 'ard boyz.
Could it be argued however, that if one was to field a unit of AoBR ork boys, claiming them to be 'Ard boyz (consistently, not just 'oh by the way these guys are 4+'), they would be legal if there was not a similar unit? (As in only one mob of boys in troops, which is the 'Ard boys mob; the rest of the troops being filled by nobz, grotz, dreddz, etc.)
This isn't me being a git, by the way, I am genuinely curious about this.
S_P
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Post by: olympia
Space_Potato wrote:nkelsch wrote:You have no valid excuse to call AoBR 'ard boyz. It is a PROXY' and proxies are not allowed at events as it breaks WYSIWYG. Your models would either get a 6+ save or be removed from play for breaking the rules if you called AoBR 'ard boyz.
Could it be argued however, that if one was to field a unit of AoBR ork boys, claiming them to be 'Ard boyz (consistently, not just 'oh by the way these guys are 4+'), they would be legal if there was not a similar unit? (As in only one mob of boys in troops, which is the 'Ard boys mob; the rest of the troops being filled by nobz, grotz, dreddz, etc.)
This isn't me being a git, by the way, I am genuinely curious about this.
S_P
Absolutely space potato. That would be fine. AoBR Big shootas are routinely used as lootas in tournaments as long as there no other big shootas in the army.
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Post by: ImperialTard
I am amazed you people have both time and money to buy many multiples of every model in your collection and proceed to equip each one with a specific set of gear to remain so absolutely "WYSIWYG." If someone points to a guy holding a rifle and tells me "but I upgraded that one with an automatic rifle" I don't flip out.
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Post by: nkelsch
olympia wrote:Space_Potato wrote:nkelsch wrote:You have no valid excuse to call AoBR 'ard boyz. It is a PROXY' and proxies are not allowed at events as it breaks WYSIWYG. Your models would either get a 6+ save or be removed from play for breaking the rules if you called AoBR 'ard boyz.
Could it be argued however, that if one was to field a unit of AoBR ork boys, claiming them to be 'Ard boyz (consistently, not just 'oh by the way these guys are 4+'), they would be legal if there was not a similar unit? (As in only one mob of boys in troops, which is the 'Ard boys mob; the rest of the troops being filled by nobz, grotz, dreddz, etc.)
This isn't me being a git, by the way, I am genuinely curious about this.
S_P
Absolutely space potato. That would be fine. AoBR Big shootas are routinely used as lootas in tournaments as long as there no other big shootas in the army.
Space Potato: First of all, 'it can never be argued' for WYSIWYG. It 'can be argued' for trying to get opponents consent for Proxying models... It is still a proxy.
And I would be curious to see the ork list that has 1 unit of AoBR 'ard boyz and no other regular 6+ ork boyz anywhere in the list. The whole problem with 'ard boyz is usually there are multiple other ork units so the 'all my 6+ are 4+' doesn't at all work. And even if you did take a list like that... It isn't WYSIWYG, it isn't counts as... it is still a Proxy. And if Proxies are not allowed at an event, it is breaking the rules.
You showing up with AoBR as 'ard boyz is as if I showed up with scouts and said, 'I am not using scouts in my list today, they are all terminators.' The rule of 'I am not using them so all X is Y' is Proxying.
Olympia: Really? What event allows BS to Proxy lootas? It is close to impossible to take an ork army without having a legitimate BS somewhere on some unit. *AND* Lootas can legitimately take BS as a weapon option which makes it an evern worse Proxy. Burna boyz as lootas make more sense as burnas can legitimately be not taken in an army and you could say 'all burnas are deffguns'.
But guess what, neither are WYSIWYG, both are proxies and would not be allowed at event that required WYSIWYG. If I paid money to go to an event where WYSIWYG was required, I would complain if someone tried to call stock BS = Lootas. Especially when lootas are easy and inexpensive to make as every imperial vehicle comes with 5 weapon options now and can all become loota conversions.
ImperialTard: It isn't as expensive as you make it out to be. And GW and indy events have been requiring this for 20 years... only in the past 2-3 years have I seen new people enter the hobby and expect to be accepted without paint or WYSIWYG. Some people act like they have never traded bitz with someone before to get WYSIWYG parts in order to do so without buying 12 boxes. Swap meets and ebay can be your friend if you are incapable of having any real ones to trade with. And in this thread, 'ard boyz can be made out of a McDonnalds straw by cutting it up and applying it as armor and jawplates to an Ork. Literally for free and the cost of glue you can dig through the garbage and make 'ard boyz.
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Post by: olympia
nkelsch wrote:
Olympia: Really? What event allows BS to Proxy lootas?
All but the ones you organize evidently. Automatically Appended Next Post: nkelsch wrote:
It is close to impossible to take an ork army without having a legitimate BS somewhere on some unit.
You are unfamiliar with competitive ork builds. You'll only find a big shoota on a battlewagon and they've got turrets.
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Post by: mikhaila
olympia wrote:nkelsch wrote:
Olympia: Really? What event allows BS to Proxy lootas?
All but the ones you organize evidently.
I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.
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Post by: nkelsch
olympia wrote:
All but the ones you organize evidently.
Official shenanigans. This is 100% not true. I have seen some impressive conversions of AoBR shoota boyz into Lootas, but after they convert, they are clearly deffgunz and can never be BS.
I have not seen events allow stock BS being Deffgunz. Shenanigans.
You are unfamiliar with competitive ork builds. You'll only find a big shoota on a battlewagon and they've got turrets.
So now there is an exception to the 'All X are Y' rule you are making up? If you use BS as BS on a tank, then it needs to be a BS everywhere in your army. BS are clearly identifiable and standardized. And not all BW BS are turrets. The stock model comes with guys on foot with BS. But wait? aren't those Deffguns? What about someone using a BW as a bunker for lootas? Now I have BS gunners and BS-holding lootas embarked as deffgunz? Where does the selfishness and breaking of these made-up exceptions to WYSIWYG end?
And Anyone who uses footslogging shootas frequently takes BS upgrades... Shootas are our best unit and are fantastic on foot in 5th, so I seriously don't see how there is only one competitive build and somehow it doesn't include BS. Orks have tons of ways to play competitively, and BS are used.
It is really easy to turn a BS ork into a Deffgun. It requires effort, conversions and when you are done, that model cannot ever be a BS, it is always going to be a Deffgun.
All of these 'rules' people make up to not follow WYSIWYG and when you ask them to follow THOSE rules they want even more accommodations for them. If they can't even follow their own rules, how clear to their opponent do you think their non- WYSIWYG army is?
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Post by: olympia
mikhaila wrote:
I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.
If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?
AoBR big shootas 'counts as' lootas more than satisfies the WYSIWYG guidelines on p. 47 if you have no other like models in your army.
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Post by: Guitardian
The first time I ever played against Necrons I had to ask "what does that gun do" several times and Art told me "that's like a bolter" or "that's like a heavy bolter" and so on. I actually had no idea if he was telling the truth about any of them because I had never seen a Necron codex before. The way people model their figures has to be, to an extent, an act of faith in the opponent's honesty. Look at that gallery of USSR IG figures for instance. The guy was going for a theme. They technically aren't lasguns they are AK-74 or AKR but everyone knows what they represent.
I have problems with basing. The DKOK guardsmen for instance have a missile launcher team mounted on a narrow cavalry base, rather than big round one. I don't think that kind of indescrepancy is fair at all. Because you have Cadians you have to glue two guys to one big base, but if you got some ForgeWorld, you have a smaller base size, thus less chargeable unit? "No" in my book.
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Post by: nkelsch
olympia wrote:mikhaila wrote:
I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.
If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?
AoBR big shootas 'counts as' lootas more than satisfies the WYSIWYG guidelines on p. 47 if you have no other like models in your army.
Wrong. It does not Satisfy WYSIWYG on page 47 and you clearly do not know the difference between Proxies and 'counts as'.
When you use a model or weapon or wargear that has clear and valid rules as something totally different, that is a Proxy.
When you use a model or weapon or wargear that does not have a clear and valid rule as something, that is counts as.
Using a Big Shoota as a Deffgun is a 'PROXY' because there are clear and valid rules for Big shootas and you can even take BS inside loota units which makes that example even more invalid.
Using an Auto cannon or a plasmacannon as a Deffgun is a 'counts as' because there are not clear and valid rules for autocannons or plasmacannons in the ork army.
Deffguns need to be converted. It isn't hard to convert a Deffgun from a BS, but it needs to be done if the event requires WYSIWYG.
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Post by: mikhaila
olympia wrote:mikhaila wrote:
I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.
If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?
Having trouble remembering what the discussion about? Or running out of things to say and you want to confuse the issue?
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
olympia wrote:mikhaila wrote:
I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.
If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?
AoBR big shootas 'counts as' lootas more than satisfies the WYSIWYG guidelines on p. 47 if you have no other like models in your army.
Obviously it will help your comp score if you have the right models. It verges on libel to imply you need to buy them from the organiser.
Good luck arguing with the tournament organiser about his own tournament rules in his own venue.
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Post by: olympia
Kilkrazy wrote:olympia wrote:mikhaila wrote:
I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.
If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?
AoBR big shootas 'counts as' lootas more than satisfies the WYSIWYG guidelines on p. 47 if you have no other like models in your army.
Obviously it will help your comp score if you have the right models. It verges on libel to imply you need to buy them from the organiser.
Good luck arguing with the tournament organiser about his own tournament rules in his own venue.
Obviously i would not attend any event if the organizer failed to observe GWs own standards in this regard.
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Post by: nkelsch
olympia wrote:
Obviously i would not attend any event if the organizer failed to observe GWs own standards in this regard.
The only one who is failing to observe GWs standards is you.
You would have hated playing 3rd edition orks when your lootas had to be the actual imperial weapon you intended to 'loot'. Deffguns of today are much more forgiving than before... but Big shootas are still not valid models for Deffguns and would not be WYSIWYG no matter how you try to warp your personal selfish interpretation of page 47.
16525
Post by: mrwittwer
olympia wrote:
Obviously i would not attend any event if the organizer failed to observe GWs own standards in this regard.
In all honesty, i would prefer if you didnt join any events i was at. WYSIWYG is clearly defined in the BRB. Its that plain and simple. Everything must be modeled with the upgrades, weapons, armor, wargear, etc it has. If it isnt modeled it doesnt have it. Most tournaments require WYSIWYG, abide by the rules or dont play. People put time and effort into making their armies 100% WYSIWYG and for you to come in with proxies, then argue that everyone else is wrong and you should be allowed to do this, is just offensive and a waste of legitimate players time. If you enjoy playing more than you do modeling and painting, play friendly games until you can abide by WYSIWYG. I play with a group of my friends at my house, my house rules state that WYSIWYG is not required. This way we experiment and see what we like, what works and what doesnt. When we all go down to the FLGS we all play WYSIWYG. It makes the game easier and really isnt difficult to do. I recently just played in my first tournament, i went to painstaking efforts to make entirely sure my army was 100% WYSIWYG. In all honesty it was satisfying to know i would have no issues at this tournament and that me and my opponents could have a good match. In short, if you dont wanna play by all of the rules thats fine. Just dont play with me.
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Post by: Leo_the_Rat
Since you seem to be demanding 100% WYSIWYG, would you allow someone whose model obviously has a chainsword to say that it was a power weapon? Or would you demand that the organizer remove/disqualify the figure until either the player filed down his piece or changed his army sheet to show the character has a chainsword?
Yes, I realize that in a tournament that if you lose then your life is forfeit but aren't you being a little too much. You're acting like the fate of the world depends on everything being exactly as written (maybe things are hidden from view by how the character is portrayed). It just seems that the personal attacks are over the top. If you don't agree with Olympia that's fine. If you actually meet him at a tournament then ask for a ruling from the TO. But, it seems to me, that the most important rule at any type of tournament is to have fun. They give prizes for the best painted armies. They give prizes to the best Sportsman. As far as I've heard the only prize whiners and complainers get is directions to the door.
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Post by: Guitardian
You can make a deffgun out of toothpicks and sprue bits if you wanted, it's just a rename for the old Kustom Kombi, which essentially was only required to look like a jumble of mishmashed weapons. You can base it on anything so far as I know.
23697
Post by: SwanCo
so what about if i play my unfinished squad of 1k sons (just to soak up some points i was lacking in and they were all i had handy on time) where 4 models havent had arms attached yet and the LFGS doesnt have an area to glue on parts? its relatively obvious that the 1k sons will only have bolters. would you WYSIWYG there and say that they have to kick people in melee and do nothing else?
99
Post by: insaniak
SwanCo wrote:... where 4 models havent had arms attached yet and the LFGS doesnt have an area to glue on parts?
Do you really need a dedicated 'Parts Attachment Area' in order to put arms on 4 Marines? 
I've lost count of the number of times over the years I've wound up standing at a table gluing bits on (most frequently because something's come adrift) as I deploy...
4042
Post by: Da Boss
If my models had gotten broken in transit would you force me to repair them before playing? Say a few arms are off here and there through a squad?
(Not directed specifically at insaniak.)
99
Post by: insaniak
Da Boss wrote:If my models had gotten broken in transit would you force me to repair them before playing?
Force you to? No.
Be a little puzzled if you didn't want to? Absolutely.
In a friendly game, I have no problem with someone using half-assembled models if it's what they have... although I prefer to play with assembled and painted armies. But in a tournament it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect people to have armies that are actually ready to play. If something gets broken on the way, you take a couple of minutes to fix it before your first game... that way, you're not playing with a broken miniature for the entire day.
4042
Post by: Da Boss
Hmmm. I guess because I run an ork horde, I usually want to get down to playing ASAP. To me that's the important thing- getting the turns done. It's usual for one or two boyz to get broken on the way to a tournament (I usually have to travel by bus, see) and gluing them takes time I could be using to deploy my assloads of boyz. So generally, I don't bother. It's never occured to me that it could bug someone at all.
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Post by: insaniak
To be fair, if one of your slugga boys is missing a pistol arm, nobody's going to care.
But if it's something that is going to make a difference, then it's a courtesy to your opponent's to reattach it, and it's easier on you than having to explain to your opponent what each of the models with missing arms is supposed to be equipped with before every single game.
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Post by: mikhaila
SwanCo wrote:so what about if i play my unfinished squad of 1k sons (just to soak up some points i was lacking in and they were all i had handy on time) where 4 models havent had arms attached yet and the LFGS doesnt have an area to glue on parts? its relatively obvious that the 1k sons will only have bolters. would you WYSIWYG there and say that they have to kick people in melee and do nothing else?
The assumption in this discussion is for a tournament that has a WYSIWYG requirement, not a pick up game at your FLGS. You obviously wouldn't be bringing unfinished models missing pieces to a tournament. Automatically Appended Next Post: Da Boss wrote:Hmmm. I guess because I run an ork horde, I usually want to get down to playing ASAP. To me that's the important thing- getting the turns done. It's usual for one or two boyz to get broken on the way to a tournament (I usually have to travel by bus, see) and gluing them takes time I could be using to deploy my assloads of boyz. So generally, I don't bother. It's never occured to me that it could bug someone at all.
I'd agree that making sure you get your turns in so your opponent doesn't only get part of a game in round 1 is important. But your suggesting that you run from the bus right into the tournament and begin unpacking? If so, maybe you need to take an earlier bus.)
Not really trying to make fun of you, but the discussion has swerved to where people are making up scenarios that don't have much to do with WYSIWYG.
Broken models? fix them.
Unfinished models? Put them together the night before.
Broken right as you start a game, theres been a horrible glue shortage for weeks and theres absolutely no way to fix the model during the tournament? OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!!!.....
or maybe. "Sure, no ones going to care".
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Post by: Inquisitor_Syphonious
I faced an opponent with "surprisepowerfistsyndrome" once, at a tournament. It was alright, because in all fairness, he probably told me beforehand, I had just forgotten. As long as the size of the model doesn't change, and any models being proxied aren't also something else in their list, I am fine with it.
443
Post by: skyth
I played the manager at a GW store once who swore up and down that everything was WYSIWYG whenever I asked him what equipment a model had (We wouldn't actually tell me what the equipment was).
I get into combat with his commander that is modeled with a chainsword and all of a sudden, he's armed with a power weapon...Go figure.
99
Post by: insaniak
skyth wrote:I get into combat with his commander that is modeled with a chainsword and all of a sudden, he's armed with a power weapon...Go figure.
I have had it argued (by someone who was completely serious) in the past that, because a power weapon is a type of close combat weapon, any sort of close combat weapon is sufficient to represent it...
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
If it's the only chainswords in the army (probably only Catachan armies apply here)? Sure. I'm not sure how you could really be confused by what a HQ IC has, though - there's not exactly a surplus of them and they're right at the top of the roster.
23697
Post by: SwanCo
mikhaila wrote:SwanCo wrote:so what about if i play my unfinished squad of 1k sons (just to soak up some points i was lacking in and they were all i had handy on time) where 4 models havent had arms attached yet and the LFGS doesnt have an area to glue on parts? its relatively obvious that the 1k sons will only have bolters. would you WYSIWYG there and say that they have to kick people in melee and do nothing else?
The assumption in this discussion is for a tournament that has a WYSIWYG requirement, not a pick up game at your FLGS. You obviously wouldn't be bringing unfinished models missing pieces to a tournament.
true, it was just a friendly game but still.
And i ran outta glue that morning fixing a defiler that was broken when knocked off a table in a previous game
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Post by: Krazykroot
I think it should be the players responsibility to build a decent and presentable force for a tournament: If you wanna go, be ready for it. I've experienced friends turning melta's into storm bolters, which, coupled with a sea of tactical marines made for a somewhat unpleasant game.
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Post by: skyth
MasterSlowPoke wrote:If it's the only chainswords in the army (probably only Catachan armies apply here)? Sure. I'm not sure how you could really be confused by what a HQ IC has, though - there's not exactly a surplus of them and they're right at the top of the roster.
It was a Blood Angel army and I didn't see the roster...I just asked what things had and it kept on getting repeated that everything was WYSIWYG
299
Post by: Kilkrazy
olympia wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:olympia wrote:mikhaila wrote:
I've never allowed BS to be proxied as looters in my tournaments. If you want looters, go buy looters, or take some time converting the big shooters into deffguns.
If I buy them from you will it help my comp score?
AoBR big shootas 'counts as' lootas more than satisfies the WYSIWYG guidelines on p. 47 if you have no other like models in your army.
Obviously it will help your comp score if you have the right models. It verges on libel to imply you need to buy them from the organiser.
Good luck arguing with the tournament organiser about his own tournament rules in his own venue.
Obviously i would not attend any event if the organizer failed to observe GWs own standards in this regard.
Then you have the solution so there is no need to complain.
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Post by: olympia
'What You See Is What You Get
The rule requirement is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing...While some tournaments may be more strict about this kind of thing, most opponents are happy to accommodate a small degree of one thing counting as another, so long as you explain exactly who has what at the start of the game.
p.47
As a reference point, here is the rulespack for the 2009 Throne of Skulls
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m160017a_Throne_of_Skulls_-_Warhammer_40,000_Pack.pdf
Under both a big shoota could be used as loota as long as it was distinguishable from any other model (perhaps by free painting 'deffgun' on it).
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I can see how you might think that rule was applicable generally, however each tournament has its own rules so you should always check with the TO about such things.
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Post by: Scott-S6
Blackmoor wrote:Is it ok to use a power weapon for a powerfist?
Tournament organizers normally don’t care, and most of the time neither will your opponent.
But always try to be WYSWIG at all times as far as weapon options goes. I played against a land raider Redeemer last year at the 'Ard Boyz and it was a LR Crusader model. It was an unpleasant surprise to get flamed by that thing. Also you do not want to have your opponent keep track of what weapon options are on what unit.
I'm confused - are you saying wysiwyg is required or not?
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Post by: helgrenze
I find this discussion ...interesting. Why? Because I have 3000 points worth of Space Marines that is nothing but, as one poster insists, Proxies.
(The list can be seen here... http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/296098.page )
According to some this would be illegal in Tournament Play, though I have tried to make everything wysiwyg. Many of the weapons do not look "standard' but are standardised within the list.
Which begs the question.... If it is standardised within the list, (using orks for examples here.) say all red guns are shootas and all yellow guns are Lootas, would that cause an issue?
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Post by: Scott-S6
Technically that would not be allowed. However if you are absolutely 100% consistent thenyou will usually get away with it.
For counts-as armies like your squats that's the way to go.
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Post by: Zulander
Do you guys think it's messed up if sometimes I proxy my champions plasma pistol as a bolt pistol if I don't wanna upgrade?
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Post by: mikhaila
Zulander wrote:Do you guys think it's messed up if sometimes I proxy my champions plasma pistol as a bolt pistol if I don't wanna upgrade?
In a friendly game, I'd say you're fine, if you tell your opponent. In a tournament, it's up to the TO as to how strict he would be on WYSIWYG. Automatically Appended Next Post: olympia wrote:
'What You See Is What You Get
The rule requirement is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing...While some tournaments may be more strict about this kind of thing, most opponents are happy to accommodate a small degree of one thing counting as another, so long as you explain exactly who has what at the start of the game.
p.47
As a reference point, here is the rulespack for the 2009 Throne of Skulls
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m160017a_Throne_of_Skulls_-_Warhammer_40,000_Pack.pdf
Under both a big shoota could be used as loota as long as it was distinguishable from any other model (perhaps by free painting 'deffgun' on it).
So then you're actually not argueing at all, good. I'm sure you were able to read your own post where it says While some tournaments may be more strict. So while MOST opponents will let you slide, SOME won't, and SOME TOURNAMENTS will be more strict.
Which brings us back to the oft mentioned bit of wisdom "Check with the TO".
Throne of Skulls only matter if you want to go play in Throne of Skulls. Independent tournaments are just that, Independent. Reading the rules for a tournement and checking with the TO is always a good thing.
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Post by: Guitardian
This really is kind of a much ado about nothing. If you just want to play a game you'll use whatever you got. I don't think my linoleum floor kitchen really cares if all my Guardians are actually pawns from a chess set.
If I go to a setting where obvious care has been taken to include the aesthetic side of the hobby, rather than just the competative side, then you would expect to show up appropriately, out of respect for everyone else who put forth the effort expicting the same. We don't show up in court in cutoff shorts and a tshirt that reeks of beer and expect the judge to look highly upon us, we show up in a suit and tie even though it obviously isn't our normal dress.
There's a place for proxies and unpainted stuff in my world, and its called the kitchen floor. 'pro' tournaments have a higher expectation than my kitchen floor, and if I will not meet it, I will not go, I will stay on my kitchen floor with milk cartons and friends who dont care and stacks of random cardboard and just have fun.
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Post by: nkelsch
olympia wrote: 'What You See Is What You Get
The rule requirement is that such equipment must be visually represented on the model so your opponents can clearly see what they are facing...While some tournaments may be more strict about this kind of thing, most opponents are happy to accommodate a small degree of one thing counting as another, so long as you explain exactly who has what at the start of the game.
p.47 As a reference point, here is the rulespack for the 2009 Throne of Skulls http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m160017a_Throne_of_Skulls_-_Warhammer_40,000_Pack.pdf Under both a big shoota could be used as loota as long as it was distinguishable from any other model (perhaps by free painting 'deffgun' on it).
Nope. Page 47 and the PDF for Throne of Skulls do not support what you are saying in any way. Your 'All X is Y' rule is not supported by any rules... The real rule is 'as long as opponent consents, you can play however both players agree.' Your problem is your opponent is playing by the rules, the event set rules and youa re making up reasons why you do not have to follow them. Here is something that is probably lost on you. Since you are unable to follow rules and want to make excuses, this was written just for you it seems. "This is a grown up hobby played by grown up people who are sensible enough to know both what "fully painted" and "acceptable" means. Let's look at the very PDF your reference for standards... Oh it said check the Warhammer world site to illustrate the standards 'they' expect. http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m240024a_Warhammer_World_-_Rules_of_Engagement.pdf
WYSIWYG
An important principle of our events is "what your see is what you get" or WYSIWYG for short. All this means is unless you are using the 'CountsAs' Rule then the miniatures used are assumed to have their equipment actually shown on the model.
It would be grossly unfair to show the model being equipped with one thing, but claiming it to be armed with another; wars have been started for less.
There you go... Throne of Skulls, warhammer world, GW... ALL SAY YOU ARE WRONG AND ARE BREAKING THE RULES> Let's see this 'counts as' rule...
The 'Counts as' rule allows you to apply the rules for existing units to older scratch built models that do not have rules of thier own. This is to allow you to make full use of your collection or the army choses within our rulebooks; it's not an excuse to change your army as a way of fine tuning your force
Now you know GW's definition since you seem to be using it wrong. Using a 3rd edition Lootas with a plasmacannona as deffgun is 'COUNTS AS'. Using a 3rd edition stikkbomma as a Kommando is 'counts as'. Using a Squig katapult as a Lobba is 'counts as'. Using a 3rd Edition Skarboy as a slugga boy is 'counts as'. Using 2nd edition orks with imperial bolters as Shootas is 'counts as'. Using an Ork with a Plasmagun as a KMB is 'counts as'. *NONE* of the examples here in this thread is acceptable. 6+ AoBR as 4+ 'ard boyz is unacceptable. Shootas as Sluggas is unacceptable. BS as Deffguns is UNACCEPTABLE. They ahve explicitly called out this behavior in thier little PDF. You are 100% wrong. GW says you are wrong in every capacity. Every link you post also says you are wrong. Friendly play takes opponents consent. Official events that require WYSIWYG require WYSIWYG. You are in no way WYSIWYG or COUNTS AS if you call a stock BS model a Loota with a Deffgun.
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Post by: olympia
nklesh, your indignant post is not compelling. The "Counts As" section of that rule .pdf tells you to contact the Referee and further states that the referee may or may not allow the "counts as." Having played in many of these events, and knowing some of these referees, I can assure you that the basis of the decision would be whether or not the model is obviously distinguishable and/or identifiable. This is why I have always seen big shootas 'counts as' lootas allowed at events in the UK as long as there are no other big shootas in the army. And the party of about being played by grown-ups is apropos. It means to me, and most people I know, don't be a blowhard.
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Post by: nkelsch
olympia wrote:nklesh, your indignant post is not compelling. The "Counts As" section of that rule .pdf tells you to contact the Referee and further states that the referee may or may not allow the "counts as." Having played in many of these events, and knowing some of these referees, I can assure you that the basis of the decision would be whether or not the model is obviously distinguishable and/or identifiable. This is why I have always seen big shootas 'counts as' lootas allowed at events in the UK as long as there are no other big shootas in the army. And the party of about being played by grown-ups is apropos. It means to me, and most people I know, don't be a blowhard.
Let's see.
You claimed using Big shootas a s Lootas meets WYSIWYG. It has been proven it does not. You ignore it and expect special treatment.
You then claimed using Big Shootas as Lootas meets Counts as. It has been proven it does not. You ignore the raw definition set forth for counts as, your model does not fit it in any way and you expect special treatment.
You then claimed to "have played in many of these events and knowing the referees" that your exception to the rules would be allowed. (as if your "I dun saw it allowed so it must be true" is any more valid than anyone else's experiences.) Then many people who have also played in these events and many TOs for some of these events who have acted as judges have weighed in and said it neither meets WYSIWYG or Counts as. And yet... you expect special treatment.
I still do not see this language of 'If it is identifiable, all X may be Y' ANYWHERE. You are making it up. That is not the standard allowed. It was never the standard allowed at the US GTs. It is not the standard allowed at many if not all the events today and was not the standard allowed at 'ard boyz less than a month ago.
Anywhere it *WAS* allowed was breaking the rules and the judges were being lazy... It isn't because that is the way the rule works. TOs may set thier own expectation to what is allowed, but your examples are not universal or acceptable if you follow GW's standards or many other event's standards.
I would like to see an Ork list with no big shootas. If you are taking pretty much any ork transport I bet you will have a BIG SHOOTA as a BIG SHOOTA which means your lootas are breaking your made-up 'All x are y' rule.
You are wrong in every way. The only way your proxies are accepted is if the event does not require WYSIWYG or is lazy in enforcing thier rules. You are not following the rules in any way. Stock Big Shootas are never WYSIWYG or COUNTS AS for Deffguns and they never will be. They are always and will always be Proxies. If the event does not allow proxies, you and your proxies should not be welcome and people who paid money for a Painted WYSIWYG event have the right to complain about you and your breaking of the event rules.
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Post by: Guitardian
I think the 'counts as' differentiation has to do with creative modelling, not the same as proxies. If I don't like my farseer figure for instance. and trick him out a lot with adornments and different bits he could be a 'counts as' Eldrad for instance, but still the figure is very obviously standing out as unique. a proxy Eldrad would just be taking my farseer figure and saying 'that's Eldrad' without any attempt to differentiate him from his origional role the figure was made as. Likewise, my old Squat figures with long barrelled lasguns could be 'counts as' ratlings and I doubt if anyone could complain since they approximately the same size and are obviously not regular full size guardsmen.
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Post by: insaniak
Guitardian wrote: I think the 'counts as' differentiation has to do with creative modelling, not the same as proxies.
That's it exactly. The 'counts as' allowance is intended to allow for creative modeling, or for players to use models that no longer fit into the current rules. Proxying is just a way of using whatever you have on hand as something that you don't have. It's a fine distinction, but there is a difference.
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Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
I really don't care about the whole WYSIWYG, because its not about the model but about the game play. if you can't beat someone with non-WYSIWYG army can then complain to a TO. Then who the spoil sport? I say just play the game and that all. Remember the difference between a 10 year ago and adult, one the adult has more money and two the child depends on his parents to support his or her interest.
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Post by: insaniak
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I really don't care about the whole WYSIWYG, because its not about the model but about the game play.
Better and easier game play is exactly why WYSIWYG is important. It's not just a way to force you to spend more time modeling. It's supposed to make for a more fun game, by reducing the effort needed to figure out what is what on the table.
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Post by: mrblacksunshine_1978
insaniak wrote:mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I really don't care about the whole WYSIWYG, because its not about the model but about the game play.
Better and easier game play is exactly why WYSIWYG is important. It's not just a way to force you to spend more time modeling. It's supposed to make for a more fun game, by reducing the effort needed to figure out what is what on the table.
It's not going to spend more time????yeah it will and even worst you going to spend a hell alot of more money, trust me I should know. I have 15 ThuderCavalry are which WYSIWYG to the max, each model cost me about 80.00 per guy, yeah talking about spending time on ebay looking for the correct parts and modeling. The truth about WYSIWYG is the same about who can run for Congress, its about how big is your bank account and far will you go.
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Post by: Guitardian
Don't forget your suit and tie...
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Post by: insaniak
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:It's not going to spend more time????
I didn't say that. I said it's not just about spending more time modeling.
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Post by: mrwittwer
mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:insaniak wrote:mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I really don't care about the whole WYSIWYG, because its not about the model but about the game play.
Better and easier game play is exactly why WYSIWYG is important. It's not just a way to force you to spend more time modeling. It's supposed to make for a more fun game, by reducing the effort needed to figure out what is what on the table.
It's not going to spend more time????yeah it will and even worst you going to spend a hell alot of more money, trust me I should know. I have 15 ThuderCavalry are which WYSIWYG to the max, each model cost me about 80.00 per guy, yeah talking about spending time on ebay looking for the correct parts and modeling. The truth about WYSIWYG is the same about who can run for Congress, its about how big is your bank account and far will you go.
Even 'ard boyz which doesnt require painted models and entire purpose is to focus on gameplay still requires WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG makes things so much easier for both you and your opponent. Examples, if you happen to forget what all your models are upgraded with, just look at the table. Your opponent doesnt have to spend time looking at your army list every turn. There are no surprises that lead to disputes which take up game time. Also if you read what insaniak wrote, he didnt say it wouldnt take time. He just stated that the purpose isnt to just make you spend more time. *Ninjaed* And maybe its just me, but warhammer isnt my job, its a hobby. I want to put time into my models to make them look proper and be usable in game. I enjoy playing all the crazy rules and being creative with modeling. IMO, WYSIWYG is one of the best rules GW has ever enforced.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
Guitardian wrote:This really is kind of a much ado about nothing. If you just want to play a game you'll use whatever you got. I don't think my linoleum floor kitchen really cares if all my Guardians are actually pawns from a chess set.
If I go to a setting where obvious care has been taken to include the aesthetic side of the hobby, rather than just the competative side, then you would expect to show up appropriately, out of respect for everyone else who put forth the effort expicting the same. We don't show up in court in cutoff shorts and a tshirt that reeks of beer and expect the judge to look highly upon us, we show up in a suit and tie even though it obviously isn't our normal dress.
There's a place for proxies and unpainted stuff in my world, and its called the kitchen floor. 'pro' tournaments have a higher expectation than my kitchen floor, and if I will not meet it, I will not go, I will stay on my kitchen floor with milk cartons and friends who dont care and stacks of random cardboard and just have fun.
My sentiments exactly. If I want to use IG cadians as hormagaunts,who's gonna stop me? I don't play tournaments and never will, so why bother buying so many models,except for aesthetic reasons?
I really find it surprising so many people care about this sort of thing. How hard is it to mentally map out what models your opponent is using? Seriously,just pay more attention.
I will say though,that it's entirely up to the proxy-er to inform you of his models. If they don't explain well enough the first time, then don't bother playing,because obviously,they aren't taking it as seriously as they should.
Anyway, I play Black Legion. Would anyone mind if I used ultramarines,in addition to my Black Leggionaires as "proxies"? They're completely WYSIWYG, obviously. I like the aesthetic mix of colors, usually to signal a different unit format. No one I've played with has a problem with this.
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Post by: insaniak
Samus_aran115 wrote:I really find it surprising so many people care about this sort of thing.
Really? In a miniatures game that relies so heavily on the visual and physical aspects of the miniatures, with a rich background and flavour behind those miniatures, you find it surprising that people would want the miniatures to actually reflect what they are supposed to be?
How hard is it to mentally map out what models your opponent is using?
It might not be hard at all for some. But that's not the point. It's easier to not have to do so... which is ultimately all that WYSIWYG is all about.
You'll find that, in practice, most players will accept (some with more grace than others, admittedly) far more than they will say they prefer in a discussion like this.
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Post by: mikhaila
Samus_aran115 wrote:My sentiments exactly. If I want to use IG cadians as hormagaunts,who's gonna stop me? I don't play tournaments and never will, so why bother buying so many models,except for aesthetic reasons?
No one here disagrees with you.
Mainly because the topic was WYSIWYG at Tounaments.
Since , as you say, you don't play tournaments, no one really cares what you do.
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Post by: acreedon
So, there are a lot of pages and maybe someone already asked, but i have a question.
If i went to a tournament, and played nids. Would it be ok to clearly state that all the tgaunts have fleshbore gun. I don't want to pull of all the arms of spinefists/devs. I am in the process of buying more. But.... do you think that would be ok at a tournament?? I feel like it should be because all the gaunts are treated the same with the same weapon.
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Post by: insaniak
acreedon wrote:If i went to a tournament, and played nids. Would it be ok to clearly state that all the tgaunts have fleshbore gun.
That would be entirely up to the tournament organiser. You won't get an answer here that actually means anything unless whoever generally runs the tournaments you play in happens to be posting here.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
mikhaila wrote:Samus_aran115 wrote:My sentiments exactly. If I want to use IG cadians as hormagaunts,who's gonna stop me? I don't play tournaments and never will, so why bother buying so many models,except for aesthetic reasons?
No one here disagrees with you.
Mainly because the topic was WYSIWYG at Tounaments.
Since , as you say, you don't play tournaments, no one really cares what you do.
\
Ah,I see. No need to be rude.
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Post by: acreedon
thanks
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Post by: Scott-S6
Samus_aran115 wrote:I really find it surprising so many people care about this sort of thing. How hard is it to mentally map out what models your opponent is using? Seriously,just pay more attention.
This is where the difference between counts-as and proxies comes in. If you're using old arbites models or something as sergeants and you tell me "mauls are actually power weapons", that's easy to remember. Plus, since they're obviously not correct models I'm not going to think that they're WYSIWYG. On the other hand, if you're using power weapon models and you tell me "these three are power weapons but these other three are fists", everytime I look at them I'm going to see power weapons. You're adding to the stuff I need to stay on top of because you couldn't just stick with what the models have. That's the bit I don't get - why is it so hard to just use the model as what it is? Do you need that weapon option so badly? Especially for casual play.
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Post by: Hacksaaw
im also rather amused that people assume you can always visually identifiy models even if they are done perfectly WYSIWYG.
ultimatly the real arbiter is what your opponent says they are armed with, you can assume that such and such a thing is this or that. and for you to be able to easilly identify which unit is which.
There are enough various models, enough assumptions of what looks like eavy armor for example ( and something that isnt set in stone like that is always grounds for dispute from a twit) that you have to ultimatly fall back upon what your opponent says.
and frankly using Ork boyz for ard boyz, or conscripts for carapaced armored vets is al subjective.
and isnt the same thing at all as using terminators for witches.
It is very possible for some people to think they have achieved wysiwyg and others to get all up in arms because they havent met their expectations of how they view the equipment.
much of this just isnt set in stone. My looters are a motley mix of looted weapons and modified shootas with scopes and extended barrels. would that satisfy you?
ultimatly i dont want to see proxies, but im happy with a lenient and logical counts as interpretation.
but in the end we come up against the worst part of Ard boyz, not the wysiwig or lack there of , but the lack of painted army requirements. kits bought that day to round out an army, no primer and parts rapidly glued together.
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Post by: mikhaila
Samus_aran115 wrote:mikhaila wrote:Samus_aran115 wrote:My sentiments exactly. If I want to use IG cadians as hormagaunts,who's gonna stop me? I don't play tournaments and never will, so why bother buying so many models,except for aesthetic reasons?
No one here disagrees with you.
Mainly because the topic was WYSIWYG at Tounaments.
Since , as you say, you don't play tournaments, no one really cares what you do.
\
Ah,I see. No need to be rude.
Sorry, wasn't trying to be, but that did come out badly. I'm taking breaks from a marathon night of fill-in-monthly-orderforms.( I hate monthlies. Typeing quick and not proofreading.
That should have been more like "At home, or with friends. no one should hassle you about how you play, or what you play with".
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Post by: Scott-S6
Hacksaaw wrote:much of this just isnt set in stone. My looters are a motley mix of looted weapons and modified shootas with scopes and extended barrels. would that satisfy you?
When you have what is clearly not a normal model that's a good start. I'm not going to look at that unit and think it's a mob of regular boyz, not giving it a second glance.
Where as, a unit of boyz used as ard boyz is a problem - they look like a perfectly normal mob of boyz, why would I question that and even consider that they might be ard boyz?
Using non-standard models is ok - using a normal model as something else is not. Doubly so when it's something the unit could have (like a big shooter counts-as deffgun)
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Post by: helgrenze
I prefer to play with at least assembled models on the table. WYSIWYG can be an issue, especially with rules changes.
Point in case, My Squats. I had modified several heavy bolters with longer barrels and muzzle brakes/flash suppressors to use as autocannons. 5th ed came out and suddenly SM Scouts cannot field autocannons. However they still look like modded heavy bolters so that is what I am using them as.
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Post by: Ed_Bodger
This 'discussion' (argument) has now gone on for 9 pages I would have thought the answer was fairly simple.
In a tournament where the rules clearly stipulate no proxies and WYSIWYG then you can only use upgrades that are shown on the model, basic equipment (such as frag grenades for marines) for the unit is stated in each Codex and if there is no option to not take it then it does not need to be modelled.
If a unit is not produced by GW such as TWC then you may not be able to take it at a tournament but if you are then it is essential that to the best of your ability it is WYSIWYG.
In answer to the IG vets carapace armour question then use the same logic as used with conscripts - Cadian conscripts have a white stripe on the helmet, let Vets have a red stripe or whatetever colour you want to represent Vets as long as it is consistant no TO or opponent is going to have a problem with it.
Orks 'Ard Boyz there is an upgrade kit made by GW unfortunately this means that most people will insist you use is. It is exactly the same as the difference between Terminator Armour and Power Armour.
Extra Armour on vehicles is an upgrade that can be modeled but ultimately that is why you have an army list.
In friendly games WYSIWYG does not matter the only people that need to be happy are you and your opponent if he is fine with proxies etc then he will play you if he/she isn't then they won't.
Simples
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Post by: Samus_aran115
Yeah,that sounds like a thread closer to me. ^>^
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