From our friends over at TTGN:

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2010/05/13/36088

NOW...

This is, I think, useful information.

We'll see how long this can stay open...

what Gw raising prices? what a suprise. Hope they start taking blood and babies.

Alpharius wrote:We'll see how long this can stay open...

fire4effekt wrote: Hope they start taking blood and babies.

not helpful at all, fire.

The prices don't look horrible, overall. Would've preferred not to have them, but it won't break the bank. Fewer items were increased compared to the Brits.

The books are getting really pricey, though.

Copy, add your name to the bottom and email to GW customer service. If we get enough people in on this, maybe something will happen...

*My whole gaming group supports this!
-Unkle Jack

To Whom it may concern:

I'm writing to let you know that I am very disappointed in Games Workshop for even considering another price increase. I've been a consumer of Games Workshop products for 10 years now and have accumulated 6 fully playable armies in that time. I've not only purchased models to create these armies, but I've purchased White Dwarf magazines, paint, every codex you've created and a number of accessories to make my battlefields more realistic. All of this adds up to thousands of dollars spent.

At this point, however, I think I am at the end of the road with regard to my relationship with Games Workshop. I was fully intending on starting a Blood Angles army (my 7th army) and when finished with that, moving on to either Inquisition or a second Chaos army- but with these price increases, I won't be buying Games Workshop products anymore. In my opinion, Games Workshop is no longer interested in making a great game for people to enjoy. Instead, GW is only interested in squeezing the fanbase for every single bit of cash GW can get. And I am simply not going to be involved with this anymore. While this letter doesn't seem very intimidating, I want you to know that I am not alone. Below are my friends with whom I've played 40k, BFG and Apocalypse for years. They are quitting too. And, unless you back down from this insane increase of your prices, others will follow.

Please consider what I have written. Because when I quite buying GW, I'll be selling my armies off and buying into Warmachine and possilby Flames of War. Not only will you lose my purchases, but you'll lose sales from the people who buy my armies- they won't need to buy anything from you as my armies are complete. Then, to add insult to injury, other companies will be getting my dollars and the dollars of my friends- which will further erode your market share.

Again, stop this price increase. Seriously.

Signed,

John Doe
Stackhouse
Hatchett
Chadwick
Big Josh
Fluffy_Loving_Teddy_Bear
Milquetoast (...List keeps growing, bitches!)
Unkle Jack*
Tom Tom*
Killahell*
Tiger Style*
LostinSpace*
Gobstopper*
Demeerz*
Gordon Aaron Gordon*
Psycho Mike*
Bourbontime*
Sixsystems

Um yeah. That "petition" is moronic, to say the least.

Email petitions rarely, if ever, work. Much less work with aliases rather than actual names.

So good luck with that, when in the same timeframe you could have printed out a form letter, then signed it yourself and distributed a dozen other letters to your friends--who distribute a dozen to their friends, etc.

Gaaah!! My fury knows no bounds! I must throw my models in the neighbors yard and take up a decent hobby like motorcross or Faberge egg smashing.
p.s. who am I kidding....like everyone else here I'd sell my kids for that sweet sweet gray plastic crack.

Good thing I bought a Monolith at half-price just yesterday.

I could see this being an issue for poorer gamers, but most of us just will throw the money away anyways.

Good thing I just bought 4 wave serpents...

Seriously, I think warhammer may be entering the realm of unaffordable for me. They are only raising the prices on a few items... but I need some of those items...

On the plus side, my stuff represents an excellent investment. At this rate in 1-2 years I'll be able to sell my stuff at 30% of retail prices and still make a profit over what I paid for it...

I'm going to post this once and then probably leave the thread, because I don't have the patience to try and convince people to actually read the data before they jump to conclusions. (Of course if someone is actually going to be reasonable about I'd be happy to debate it)

1) Last year GW had less than a 10% profit margin. They make 6 bucks off of every Land Raider they sell. This is not the mark of a 'greedy' company. (Maybe a grossly mismanaged one for not being able to handle costs better, though. Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.) It's right here on page 2: http://investor.games-workshop.com/downloads/results/results2009/gw_year_end_09.pdf

2) Let's assume for a second that they were gouging us and getting like a 50% profit margin. That doesn't make them evil either, since they're a public company. They're just a cog in an evil engine. They HAVE to do whatever they can to increase profits as much as possible, at least to the point that shareholders won't call them out on it. A minority shareholder lawsuit would potentially cripple the company, leading to its IP gettting sold to someone else. Could be good, but it could also go to Hasbro. You really want that?

3) If you can afford to play and disagree with GW's practices and simply choose to no longer to support them, that's fine. I can respect that. But if you're going to quit because this price increase means you can no longer afford to play (I don't mean in a "not worth it" kind of way, I mean a literal "I can't afford to play this because I have to buy groceries instead" level of broke), then you shouldn't have been wasting money on plastic figures to begin with.

tl;dr version: GW is stupid and run by short-sighted asshats, but they aren't evil.

You are sort of misrepresenting the situation by saying they make $6 off a land raider. their gross margin is almost 72% so for a $60 land raider they are actually making about $43. unfortunately they are then spending the difference on who knows what. Same basic point, I guess, but it sort of throws some light on exactly how incompetently they are run. doesn't gross incompetence cross over into evil at some point?

Edit: Actually they make about half their income from selling to distributors (@ a 50% discount) so if you pay the full $60 at a GW store they are making about $47 off of you. It's late... someone better check my math, I think it might actually be more than that.

Poor chaplain on a bike.. No one bought him at 15$.. no one bought him at 20$.. no one bought him at 25$.. and sure as hell no one is going to buy him at 30$

There is probably a store room somewhere of nothing but chaplains on bikes and they've been sitting there so long the face on their pewter heads has turned into a frownie

Next time you give to a charity.. instead buy a chaplain on a bike.. Make him smile again

I fail to see how a 10% to 25% orice increase (for the exact same product) is a good thing no matter WHAT industry it is.

The sad part is that they will make MORE profit per item now, so even though they might not be selling as many items they will be making more money.

I'm probably too sleepy to get this right so bear with me... I think this is interesting. I think we can actually figure out a rough estimate of how much it costs them to produce a kit from this report. 59% of their sales they get to keep the full amount and 41% are to independant sellers @ a 50% discount. so 6 kits direct for every 8 kits to independant stockists. (6*60+8*30)/14=$42.86 (average sale price) on which they make a 72% margin($30.86 margin) so actual cost to them to make a $60 kit is $12. so GW gets $48 if you buy it from them and $18 if you buy it from an independant retailer (the retailer pockets the difference)

asmith wrote:You are sort of misrepresenting the situation by saying they make $6 off a land raider. their gross margin is almost 72% so for a $60 land raider they are actually making about $43. unfortunately they are then spending the difference on who knows what. Same basic point, I guess, but it sort of throws some light on exactly how incompetently they are run. doesn't gross incompetence cross over into evil at some point?

Edit: Actually they make about half their income from selling to distributors (@ a 50% discount) so if you pay the full $60 at a GW store they are making about $47 off of you. It's late... someone better check my math, I think it might actually be more than that.

Where are you getting the 72% figure from? I can't find it in the report.

Also, I'm not doubting that at all. Nobody can really argue they spend their revenue very well. In all likelihood they COULD charge 30 bucks for a land raider AND get a higher profit margin than what they do now, but god knows what they're spending all this money on.

yeah they didn't explicitly list it in this report

gross margin = (revenue-cost of sales)/revenue

edit: *100% of course

theyre spending it on REAL land raiders.. You think their fluff is fiction? its their MASTER PLAN

Soon we'll be under the boot of genetically engineered british people who only serve you tea and death (Not necessarily in that order)

My guess is they spend most of it on stores and employees who run the stores. I think this model is killing them (in the states at least). Not sure if this would come under the heading of cost of sales or not. I don't think so but I'm no accountant.

GW's problem is that they're a dinosaur. With their business models, they should be extinct. It took them long enough to accept that the internet was more than a fad (and even then, I'm willing to bet some of them still aren't convinced). Ostrakon brings up the low profit margin, but that could probably all be avoided if they were to rework their operations from the inside out. Of course, change and Games Workshop never went together very well.

asmith wrote:yeah they didn't explicitly list it in this report

gross margin = (revenue-cost of sales)/revenue

edit: *100% of course

Oh, I didn't see their cost of sales. It's in their summary on the last few pages.

Well, that means they spent roughly 80 million on things not directly related to generating profit. Payroll and rent are probably a huge chunk of that, considering their business model. Not to mention their IP lawyers, sadly.

80 million sounds like a lot, but I dunno how many facilities they have, how many GW storefronts they have, and how much it costs to maintain them. Not to mention how much they spent on payroll.

I guess it's conceivable that it should be a lot lower, but how much of that 45 bucks per land raider (and that's just direct sales) goes to paying employees physically keeping their storefronts open? Anyone have an idea what the rent is like in a reasonably populated mall or commercial district?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

asmith wrote:My guess is they spend most of it on stores and employees who run the stores. I think this model is killing them (in the states at least). Not sure if this would come under the heading of cost of sales or not. I don't think so but I'm no accountant.

Yeah, cost of sales really only refers to the direct costs of materials, making/designing the minis, and shipping them. Money spent advertising and selling them fall under operating expenses.

I find it dryly amusing that soon it will cost about as much to pick up a forge world Guard army as a 'regular' guard army.

Increases like this happen all the time. Sometimes there's a good reason, sometimes there isn't.

I have no problem with them increasing their price. After the second price increase I experienced I quit playing and moved onto different games. GW still makes fun games, but it wasn't for me.

I think it's been posted before that GW doesn't have a huge profit margin. But that's not any of our faults.

Simply look at other companies on the market, and the cost of their items that are of the same quality or better then GW's products, yet significantly cheaper. GW might say they are hurting for money, but this is more likely due to their poor business plan then production costs.

GW prices are always going to increase, I think nobody is under the illusion that steady price increases won't happen.

There are plenty of great games out there that provide great experiences for a cheaper price point. Check some out, you might dig them. If you choose to play GW games, expect steady increases in prices. We've seen them before, and we'll see them again. If you can look past that though, you've got a good game, with tons of support.

I'll still play the games just use different companies figures or older ones off e-bay...

Next project- Vampire Counts army using Mantic figures

Mick

What i find most interesting about this time's Price Increase , is the increase for codex and
AOBR , sort of the essentials that are supposed to draw us to the hobby.

It set the mentality to customers early on for warhammer is expensive , just look at the book , $30
The new customers dont even have the time to absorb in the oohs and the ahhhs for the cool fluff and cool looking armies to be further collected.

Its a deterrent that slaps the potential new customers wide wake to what they are getting into.

Great. An already expensive hobby just got even more expensive. I hope my FLGS does payment plans...

Better than what I had expected (for my armies at least). Maneaters only going up $2.50ish makes me happy. Seeing whirlwinds cost more than preads/vindies makes me wonder though. I was thinking about grabbing some for appoc formation, but now maybe not.

Seeing the Black Reach box go up to $90 is bafflingly high though. A 1/5th increase. I understand they're going to sell at most 1 per customer but still, it's an entry item designed to hook. Now it's a rather hefty investment.

I find the Beasts of War video analysis quite convincing (even if poor Darrell is not allowed to speak a single sentence without being interrupted ):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqwnwJQrHSk
There is absolutely no reason to raise the hurdle for beginners by raising the price for the starter box. This is just dumb. Didn't work in the past, will not work now.

yeah really thats the big move I dont get.. I think GW needs to have a talk with their local drug dealers

The first hit is always free because they'll come back for the 2nd.. 3rd..4th

Ah well.. Im sure some marketing executive crunched some numbers and found that it was time for lunch... so he made something up regarding "higher starter sets lead to more profit"..

Kirasu wrote:............Soon we'll be under the boot of genetically engineered british people who only serve you tea and death (Not necessarily in that order)

Spiffing! At last a GW that I can really get on board with! Now then colonials I demand that you make prayer and offering to your new God-Empress - Liz. Gawd bless her!

All we can do is see how the price rises will affect GW when they release their financial statements next year.

I don't think that there will be a dramatic negative impact.

New gamers are still coming into the GW hobby.
Collectors will still be buying.
Veterans will also still be tempted by new minis, must have units, and new rules.

I would think that any veteran who has 4 or more playable armies would be considered by GW to have 'spent up' anyway.

The fact is that whilst I may not be spending my disposable income on GW products my two kids are spending their pocket money/birthday money/christmas money at the local GW.

Kirasu wrote:Soon we'll be under the boot of genetically engineered british people who only serve you tea and death (Not necessarily in that order)

Typicall Games Workshop inefficiency. Why waste tea on dead people? The dead can't drink tea! Surely if they'd just streamline their services and just serve death they could reduce cost and not need to raise prices so much!

lol, not if my boys have their way first

I can't belve that black reach will cost nearly $100 in the states soon, that's obscene and is going to be a huge psycological barrier for any parent looking at the hobby for thier kid. $100 just to get started is not going to seen as reasonable when the hobby is percieved as playing with toys.

Completely agree with Beasts Of War's Warren, Black Reach, Skull Pass and yes Space Hulk should be sold en masse at the lowest price possible and in more shops in order to draw people in. As far as I can see GW do nothing to entice new customers relying intstead on word of mouth from the faithful, well that word of mouth is now telling people to just not bother.

asmith wrote:My guess is they spend most of it on stores and employees who run the stores. I think this model is killing them (in the states at least). Not sure if this would come under the heading of cost of sales or not. I don't think so but I'm no accountant.

They are in the process of restructuring the stores system and are going to expand the number of one person operations.

The 10% profit margin figure is, on its own, fairly meaningless.
If that is a regular annual figure then fair enough.

There are other factors which it does not take into account such as investment in new production in Nottingham and a new facility in America. Plus a resin cell in Shanghai.
These have been put in place to make production more efficient and reduce production costs.
The switch to plastic figures according to the report is to mitigate potential volatility in the metals market. While plastics are oil based they are not as prone to fluctuations as one might suspect. This is stated in GW's report.

Usually such measures at greater efficiency are implemented to make a company more competitive, which usually benefits the consumer with lower prices.
GW effectively has no competitor. Hence they can put into effect the cost saving measures whilst at the same time imposing price increases on the fanbase which is mainly loyal and has a seemingly bottomless pit of parental resources.

GW can do what they want as far as I am concerned. I won't pay £17.50 for a slim volume, half of which is pretty pics promoting product. The codices are ever increasingly becoming swanky advertising brochures as they are army code books. There is no justification for that price, as it seems very unlikely that the print runs are small, which would increase unit costs.
The same goes for the plastics, which are already costing more than limited run plastic injection moulded construction kits.

The problem partly lies with the fanbase who come into the hobby possibly with little experience of comparative products and accept the level of cost without question.

I feel for those who play the tourneys and need to by GW product to compete. I will get as little as I need from GW and continue buying 2nd hand.

Ive been in this hobby since 1994. i`m nearly 26 now god how old!!!. This price rise is just another kick in the face to there fans. There is no real justification in this at all. I can still afford it as most people can but the question is why would i want to afford it when there is so much better out there. Another thing is time. How long does it take to play a game of 40k of even fantasy now a days when you need so much models in the first place. For some games your talking an entire day while I can go play a game like Malifaux and it only takes an hour tops.

Intro prices are crazy £55 for black reach. Who`s kids parents are gonna go for that. Hell when I was a kid my top pocket money was £15 to £20 if I was lucky which back then bought you whatever you wanted. That now gets you nothing. £22.50 for a box of tactical marines? I mean come on. If I had a kid, max i`d give them would be £20 which if I was to get them into this hobby can`t even buy them the cheapest option of troops for an army.

Keep going GW. You lose out in the end as your just pushing more and more people away to other games.

The more expensive they price the models , the less amount people will buy ( this is true. Instead of buying extras, now they'll only spend on the necessities )

The less people make the purchase , the less GW will be able to make back the production cost of the new molds.

Then soon everything will suffer the gold sword syndrome.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:GW can do what they want as far as I am concerned. I won't pay £17.50 for a slim volume, half of which is pretty pics promoting product. The codices are ever increasingly becoming swanky advertising brochures as they are army code books. There is no justification for that price, as it seems very unlikely that the print runs are small, which would increase unit costs.

Well the Collector's Guides they did for most armies were £5 each, some thicker than others. They were full colour photos throughout. Wish I had bought more of them. But they were £5 at the same time the codexes were £15, the I don't think the codexes can even boast to be full colour. I suppose more creative effort goes into the codexes what with rules and writing, but ultimately the price of something rarely reflects the input. I'm suprised that the collectors guides were as little as £5 each actually, better value than White Dwarf anyway. That's why there's such a huge variation in prices on single metal miniatures, the more powerful the character the more expensive it is, nowt to do with raw materials.

Anyway, the print runs on the codexes are going to be fairly large, I highly doubt they cost more than £1 each (the paper and ink colours are of decent quality but I'm being very optimistic it's probably more like 50p) and that's assuming they are even printed in the UK. Which they probably aren't as they're likely done in Spain or China so that means they pay even less because printing inside the UK is quite expensive.

I'm not that bothered. It'll just be Maelstrom all the way for me, from now on.

The people that will be buying from Maelstrom and wayland games (this is more UK related) When the prices go up after your discount on them you wil pay what they are selling for now instore ie £20 for a box of marines say. What makes you want to pay that when its what there valued at now? Yes i knwo the price goes up but in effect you lose money on those purchases as your paying what they sel for now but still want them at discount price even though there is no (real) value

Tim the Biovore wrote:I'm not that bothered. It'll just be Maelstrom all the way for me, from now on.

Motograter wrote:The people that will be buying from Maelstrom and wayland games (this is more UK related) When the prices go up after your discount on them you wil pay what they are selling for now instore ie £20 for a box of marines say. What makes you want to pay that when its what there valued at now? Yes i knwo the price goes up but in effect you lose money on those purchases as your paying what they sel for now but still want them at discount price even though there is no (real) value

It just means they havnt reached their personal threshold .

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:GW can do what they want as far as I am concerned. I won't pay £17.50 for a slim volume, half of which is pretty pics promoting product. The codices are ever increasingly becoming swanky advertising brochures as they are army code books. There is no justification for that price, as it seems very unlikely that the print runs are small, which would increase unit costs.

Well the Collector's Guides they did for most armies were £5 each, some thicker than others. They were full colour photos throughout. Wish I had bought more of them. But they were £5 at the same time the codexes were £15, the I don't think the codexes can even boast to be full colour. I suppose more creative effort goes into the codexes what with rules and writing, but ultimately the price of something rarely reflects the input. I'm suprised that the collectors guides were as little as £5 each actually, better value than White Dwarf anyway. That's why there's such a huge variation in prices on single metal miniatures, the more powerful the character the more expensive it is, nowt to do with raw materials.

Anyway, the print runs on the codexes are going to be fairly large, I highly doubt they cost more than £1 each (the paper and ink colours are of decent quality but I'm being very optimistic it's probably more like 50p) and that's assuming they are even printed in the UK. Which they probably aren't as they're likely done in Spain or China so that means they pay even less because printing inside the UK is quite expensive.

All the Codices/Army Books are printed in China. Been this way at least since Chaos Space Marines.

More price increases, just when I'm saving to start dark eldar. I thought the $450 I set aside would be good for a decent army but I'll just have to wait and see.

I'd just like to point out the fact that price increases in any industry are inevitable in the long run. The economies of the U.S. and the U.K. are both being affected by inflation. Thus, for any amount of time a company doesn't raise prices, they are effectively discounting their merchandise as the value of the currency decreases in terms of the real goods it can purchase.
Now, if we could only get our bosses to steadily increase our pay in line with this inflation, especially for us vastly underemployed people working for just a bit more than minimum wage.

It's really hard for me to justify their book prices when the things literally disintegrate after you open them. The problem has been around since the High Elf book (maybe earlier?) so at this point it's obvious they just don't care about the issue. I have a 4th edition Orc army book that's in pretty good condition and yet my friend's Blood Angels codex fell apart the same day he got it. I don't pirate their books, but the fact that they are raising the prices on them while continuing to ship a known defective product has me considering it.

@ Druid.

I don't know about the U.K. but the U.S. Consumer Price Index (CPI) is much lower currently than in 2009... I think we're at .1 and we were at .2 in 2009.

In general, most consumer goods cost less now than they did a year before.

By raising prices, GW is taking a calculated risk that the disposable income of consumers in it's niche market will be able to bear the increase. I, personally, am sceptical as worldwide economic uncertainty abounds and unemployment remains high. Unemployed people generally don't purchase leisure items.

Time will tell how this decision will affect their bottom line as far as sales go.

Current U.S. inflation is 2.3%....

Inflation in the UK is 3.5% or there abouts, as pointed out on the linked video.

We have just come out of deflationary period so this is not a likely reason.

GW continues to find new ways to motivate me to make my own models ^_^

Oh wait, its not even new....its the same reason I havent bought anything new since 2005 when they first started to really screw us.

My pays been frozen for the last two years and now I find out I might be losing my job full stop quite soon.

There's going to be bugger all GW product in my future. :(

Well, I was going to respond, but then I realized that the post I made last year pretty much sums up my thoughts and decided to recycle it (though the Space Hulk part no longer applies):

Sadly, I'm a tool, and I will continue to spend money on GW products. In fact, in reaction to this price increase, I just purchased the Assault on Black Reach box set that I have postponed in buying for a while. And it is likely that I will continue to pick up bits and pieces here and there for my existing armies, even though I paint them as a snail's pace. Part of the collector's syndrome, I guess.

And will I continue to pick up Rules and Codeces and Black Library Novels, because I have the compulsive need to "keep up" and I generally like the fluff, especially stuff written by Dan Abnett. And I sure as hell will be picking up a Space Hulk box set when it comes out...or two...or three.

But on average, I don't spend more than $30 a month on GW (Space Hulk will be an obvious exception to this).

It has been like this for me since around 2004 when GW made me reconsider my buying habits. You see, during this period, 3rd Edition was in full swing, and I was regularly purchasing whole armies at a time, a lot of times on impulse. So it was during this particular price increase (2004) that I did what many people are doing now...I made a conscious decision to limit my spending on GW. I knew I couldn't quit...I had invested over a decade of my life into the universe, the miniatures, and the great times I've had playing GW games. And I still wanted to be able to be a part of the hobby and play the games. But instead of spending thousands a year on GW, I slowly cut back, first by increasing my secondary market acquisitions, such as through eBay and Bartertown, and then ultimately by simply buying less.

So this particular price increase (2009) won't affect me much. But that's because GW already broke the back of this camel in 2004. As for when GW will reach the next threshold and force me to consider quitting their products entirely, I'm not sure. I'm sincerely hoping that this trend does not continue, however, because it is getting to the point where I can, in all seriousness, ask myself if their products are, indeed, truly worth it. I have always acknowledged that GW's products are "expensive", but there was always an inherent "value" to their products. Now...it's getting to the point where I am not sure anymore.

I'm taking this price raise list in with me when I have my yearly salary review next week.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Usually such measures at greater efficiency are implemented to make a company more competitive, which usually benefits the consumer with lower prices.
GW effectively has no competitor. Hence they can put into effect the cost saving measures whilst at the same time imposing price increases on the fanbase which is mainly loyal and has a seemingly bottomless pit of parental resources.
The problem partly lies with the fanbase who come into the hobby possibly with little experience of comparative products and accept the level of cost without question.

I think this quote is very important (snipped and bolded by me). GW has put in a lot of effort to be the face of miniature gaming. People new to the hobby will not know of smaller companies and so will not know that there are products just as good for less money. I don't know how many people the higher price for the boxed set will turn off. New people don't have the context to know it is higher priced and GW has stated they don't give a skaven's backside about the established gamer.

On the other hand $100 isn't too far off the mark for getting a basic setup with two sides and a rulebook. Look at Warmachine; a rulebook and two battle boxes runs you $130. Granted others are cheaper, but in my experience these two are the biggest use of shelf space in any hobby store I go into.

Gargskull wrote:I can't belve that black reach will cost nearly $100 in the states soon, that's obscene and is going to be a huge psycological barrier for any parent looking at the hobby for thier kid. $100 just to get started is not going to seen as reasonable when the hobby is percieved as playing with toys.

Completely agree with Beasts Of War's Warren, Black Reach, Skull Pass and yes Space Hulk should be sold en masse at the lowest price possible and in more shops in order to draw people in. As far as I can see GW do nothing to entice new customers relying intstead on word of mouth from the faithful, well that word of mouth is now telling people to just not bother.

This is what got me. The AoBR increase. I remember a few weeks ago I was playing a tournament in a FLGS and a father and son came in while we were playing. The two were looking around at all sorts of wargames and the rep came over to talk to them about the various options they had. They discussed the differences in Flames of War, Warmachine, even Heroquest-esque board games that are great introductory tools to the market. Once the father and son looked at WFB and 40K, they asked, "What's that about?" "Its the game that all these guys are playing. Expensive, though."

The father put the boxes down and moved on. That's all it took. And that was AoBR (if I'm not mistaken) at $75. Now, at $90, it's not going to suddenly draw more people to it. The AoBR increase sounds more like a deterrent of people buying that kit to get all the models inside than it is to get more players. But how do you refresh your fanbase if you keep increasing the price of the starter kit to a level that most kids can't afford and most parents won't go for? What are you counting on, GW? White Dwarf to lure people in?

To me, it seems like you may be bringing in a little more money for some kits, but you're going to be losing an increase in new players, the speed at which people buy and the patience of some gamers altogether. I'd be lying if I said that I hadn't glanced over at Warmachine a time or two in the past few days.

vitki wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Usually such measures at greater efficiency are implemented to make a company more competitive, which usually benefits the consumer with lower prices.
GW effectively has no competitor. Hence they can put into effect the cost saving measures whilst at the same time imposing price increases on the fanbase which is mainly loyal and has a seemingly bottomless pit of parental resources.
The problem partly lies with the fanbase who come into the hobby possibly with little experience of comparative products and accept the level of cost without question.

I think this quote is very important (snipped and bolded by me). GW has put in a lot of effort to be the face of miniature gaming. People new to the hobby will not know of smaller companies and so will not know that there are products just as good for less money. I don't know how many people the higher price for the boxed set will turn off. New people don't have the context to know it is higher priced and GW has stated they don't give a skaven's backside about the established gamer.

Not true. Just because they're "smaller" companies does not equal products "just as good for less money". Most of the companies you're referring to are producing absolute ass products or limited to just single-pose plastics, resin models, metal models, or prepaints.
As for cost?
You spend just as much on a Warmachine force with infantry+warjacks+all the possible warcasters you need as a 40k army.
You can spend just as much on an AT-43 force, Secrets of the Third Reich, etc.
There is no property that really matches Games Workshop's in terms of player base and the specific games themselves. For all the holes in the rules or gaps in the model lines, you're not paying just for the models or the rules.
You're paying for what is, at the moment, the most dominant of all the tabletop game companies. The one you're most likely to be able to find something in the line-up that interests you, whether you're wanting a force similar to the Covenant from Halo or an Elf army themed around the Dalish from Dragon Age: Origins. The one where you can almost be guaranteed to find a gaming group to play regularly, tournaments to play in, and be assured that your investment in an army will actually be able to make something of a return in terms of you getting to play with the army.

On the other hand $100 isn't too far off the mark for getting a basic setup with two sides and a rulebook. Look at Warmachine; a rulebook and two battle boxes runs you $130. Granted others are cheaper, but in my experience these two are the biggest use of shelf space in any hobby store I go into.

Privateer's not done well in my region. Secrets of the Third Reich and Flames of War both take up the space that in most areas would be Warmachine.

And good riddance to Privateer, in my opinion.
Hail to West Wind and Grindhouse!

It's technically $120 to start an army, if you use the AoBR as a starting place and then buy a codex for one of them. It's still saving over rulebook + codex + models, but barely (What, $30, $40 being saved?).

That's the thing I think is silly about this. Oh, and 10 Skeletons being about $5 less than 20 of them from the last kit, but that's not as bad as people don't use Skeletons much anyways. Anyways, back to the point, $120 to actually start the hobby is a bit much. When I started, I think it was something like that to get the 3rd Edition box set... but it came with a full rulebook, as well as being slightly cheaper (if less models) after including Codexes and having models that weren't two / three pieces.

I just don't see the starter set becoming appealing when up to $90. Given the choice between a known like (2+ games) and a risky reach (Wargaming system), they're likely going to go for the sure thing. Which is bad, because a lot of the profit I see GW make is not from people who stick with the hobby but those who stop in once, buy the starter, go "WTF was I thinking?" and move on (the frequency of a customer hooked in Balt and staying hooked is low compared to just enough interest to buy a starter).

vitki wrote:I think this quote is very important (snipped and bolded by me). GW has put in a lot of effort to be the face of miniature gaming. People new to the hobby will not know of smaller companies and so will not know that there are products just as good for less money. I don't know how many people the higher price for the boxed set will turn off. New people don't have the context to know it is higher priced and GW has stated they don't give a skaven's backside about the established gamer.

I agree that new gamers tend not to be educated consumers.

The other thing is that GW has managed to push a mindset of "only official GW products for GW gaming" onto its customers, mainly through enforcing that rule at its stores and at its tournaments. There's no such mindset in most other areas of wargaming.

So with the US tourney scene going more independent, and GW stores going to more one-person operations with less gaming space...will makers of alternative minis for GW gaming finally start to gain some real traction? Possibly not, but it was an interesting thought.

One point of disagreement though is about GW and vets. I think they definitely care about vets, given the ever-rising price of the hobby. Yes, children have big allowances these days, but they can't spend like I can spend. I think they view Apoc for instance as a nod to veterans and a way to get more veteran spending. I'd wager there's some kind of tiered customer strategy going on.

I don't really understand why people take price increases like this personally. They are a business and want to make money in the short term. There is nothing we can do but vote with our dollar really.

From what I've been reading, it seems like GW is on the very edge of not being able to cut any more stuff to skinny up (or down)

Ever remember playing tower defense for the first time and never upgrading your towers? Sure they work for awhile but you get overwhelmed a lot faster than if you upgraded your towers. Basically, GW is doing it wrong.

P.S. Why the hell would you ever invest in a miniatures company? I wouldn't.

I don't get where people think kids have such huge allowances or giving parents. I don't know any kids that can walk into a store with mom or dad and plunk down $100 on a toy/game. I know if I were a parent, I'd tell the kid to pick a cheaper hobby or spend a bit more for a console system that I would play too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ivangterrace wrote:P.S. Why the hell would you ever invest in a miniatures company? I wouldn't.

I shorted GW and made a profit. I'd never go long with them though.

Can we just copy last year's thread and call it done?

Seriously people, it's called disposable income for a reason. It's what is left to spend after bills, taxes, and other responsibilities are met. Complaining about the price of luxury items is somewhat insulting to the number of people in the world who live below the poverty line, and have trouble putting food on their tables and heat in their homes.

If you no longer want to spend your disposable income on toy soldiers, then don't. If you still want to enjoy this luxury activity, then continue to do so at a level that you're comfortable with. But protesting the price increase? Really? Have you seen the cost of non-luxury items lately? Make your protest count for something real at least.

Wow. $90 for the starter box? Over $60 for LR and battlewagons? Some of the pricing doesnt seem reality based.

carmachu wrote:Wow. $90 for the starter box? Over $60 for LR and battlewagons? Some of the pricing doesnt seem reality based.

I think they believe we are all members of Parliament, Congress or the Senate. We'll just print more money or get someone else to pay for it...

Redbeard wrote:Can we just copy last year's thread and call it done?

Seriously people, it's called disposable income for a reason. It's what is left to spend after bills, taxes, and other responsibilities are met. Complaining about the price of luxury items is somewhat insulting to the number of people in the world who live below the poverty line, and have trouble putting food on their tables and heat in their homes.

If you no longer want to spend your disposable income on toy soldiers, then don't. If you still want to enjoy this luxury activity, then continue to do so at a level that you're comfortable with. But protesting the price increase? Really? Have you seen the cost of non-luxury items lately? Make your protest count for something real at least.

So, no matter what you spend your disposable income on, you should be neutral about the price going up? What if they upped your cable bill by 20%? You'd be fine with that? "Eh, I don't "have" to have it, so I shouldn't complain." BS. That's a cop out - a way to tell others that their opinion doesn't count. You wouldn't be happy. You might stick with the cable company, you might not. The point is that you -are- happy with the cable company, but this makes you unhappy with their practices. The same thing goes for this. I -do- enjoy getting more models, more armies, more options. Now, I'm asked to pay more for it than I was yesterday. But I'm expected to either quit or get over it? Nah, I don't just lie down or let someone walk over me. I make a decision. Voicing my opinion/decision is a part of that. If you don't like it, you can quit Dakka or get over it, right?

You're spending your money on something that you want. The price of the thing you want increases. You aren't happy because you don't want to spend any -more- money to get the same product, especially without being given any reason. This is abnormal? Give me a break. And about the people below the poverty line - I hope you're giving all of your disposable income to them. I hope you're happy about rising gas prices (you could just carpool, right?). I hope you're recycling everything. I hope you're giving all your leftover food at the end of the day/week/month to a shelter to feed the homeless. You're doing these things right? Because if you're not, you have no ground to talk about insulting those below the poverty line. I guess we should all just give up all of our hobbies and donate all of our money right? Probably should, but it's not going to happen.

You said, "If you still want to enjoy this luxury activity, then continue to do so at a level that you're comfortable with." That's why people are protesting. Because the level that they're comfortable with enjoying something that they've enjoyed for years just got uncomfortable. But, we're just supposed to "get over it" - in essence, "grow up" - whatever, Dad.

Kirasu wrote:theyre spending it on REAL land raiders.. You think their fluff is fiction? its their MASTER PLAN

Soon we'll be under the boot of genetically engineered british people who only serve you tea and death (Not necessarily in that order)

my deepest fears finally realized...Hooray!!

Can we just copy last year's thread and call it done?

no
Some of us weren't around for that one.
If we dig that up we get trashed for necrophilia of old threads

so for you dakka vets just sit back and enjoy what must be the annual price hike fest.
Ah like christmas it must seem to come around quicker every year!

Redbeard wrote:Can we just copy last year's thread and call it done?

Seriously people, it's called disposable income for a reason. It's what is left to spend after bills, taxes, and other responsibilities are met. Complaining about the price of luxury items is somewhat insulting to the number of people in the world who live below the poverty line, and have trouble putting food on their tables and heat in their homes.

If you no longer want to spend your disposable income on toy soldiers, then don't. If you still want to enjoy this luxury activity, then continue to do so at a level that you're comfortable with. But protesting the price increase? Really? Have you seen the cost of non-luxury items lately? Make your protest count for something real at least.

Not to be harsh, but how you can even compare luxury items with plastic toy soldiers. As for complaining about the price of "Luxury" items, I, we can talk/complain about what ever we like, this is a forum after all. It is disposable income...MY disposable income and I can spend it how I choose. Whos the insulting one? one who complains about this, or the people who put up with it and pay even more while there are people who don't have food on their table. Why don't you get off your soapbox...

puma713 wrote:
So, no matter what you spend your disposable income on, you should be neutral about the price going up?

I didn't say you should be neutral about it. If it offends you, stop paying it.

What if they upped your cable bill by 20%? You'd be fine with that?

I don't spend my disposable income on cable - I don't see that luxury as being worth the money it costs.

Now, I'm asked to pay more for it than I was yesterday. But I'm expected to either quit or get over it? Nah, I don't just lie down or let someone walk over me. I make a decision. Voicing my opinion/decision is a part of that. If you don't like it, you can quit Dakka or get over it, right?

Voicing your opinion on dakka is tantamount to lying down and taking it. If you whine like a bitch, but you still pay for it - what does that make you? An addict? If it offends you, stop giving them your money. Hit them where it hurts - in their pocket. Don't cry about how they're mistreating you while still rewarding them. If the cost/benefit ratio has swung to the cost side for you, be smart about it and walk away.

Why do they keep raising prices? Because people whine and cry online and think that matters. It doesn't. What matters is if they lose customers. The only question is does this matter enough to you to make you quit? If it does, then quit. If it doesn't, regardless of how much you cry, you're still buying into the system.

Rikashi wrote:
Not to be harsh, but how you can even compare luxury items with plastic toy soldiers.

Economically speaking, anything that is not a necessity is a luxury. An ork boy is not a Ferrari, but it doesn't cost the same as a Ferrari either (yet?)

... In all honesty, it's why I'm dropping 40k and moving back to BFG. I was going to build my 3rd 2K point IG army. Now the finished minis for that are being sent to my RT game for it, and my only planned purchase is a despoiler. I can build a decent fleet so much cheaper.

That said: there's no reason for the price hike. I could understand if costs increased, or they were releasing anew versions of the figures in question and needed to recoup the development costs, but...

Redbeard wrote:

puma713 wrote:
So, no matter what you spend your disposable income on, you should be neutral about the price going up?

I didn't say you should be neutral about it. If it offends you, stop paying it.

The issue is actually not about me as much as it is about bringing new gamers in and watching the gaming pool shrink. The prices that are going up don't affect me that much. I am more offended about what they're doing to the newer players. If these prices had been in place when I first started 40K, I doubt I would have started it. It does offend me, but I'm not going to stop paying either. Why? Because that is another means to the same end. You think they'll lower prices again? They'll either raise prices and lose business or raise prices and shut down. No one flocks to an item because its price was increased (except maybe designer items and their excluisivity).

Redbeard wrote:

puma713 wrote:
What if they upped your cable bill by 20%? You'd be fine with that?

I don't spend my disposable income on cable - I don't see that luxury as being worth the money it costs.

It was a hypothetical situation.

Redbeard wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Now, I'm asked to pay more for it than I was yesterday. But I'm expected to either quit or get over it? Nah, I don't just lie down or let someone walk over me. I make a decision. Voicing my opinion/decision is a part of that. If you don't like it, you can quit Dakka or get over it, right?

Voicing your opinion on dakka is tantamount to lying down and taking it. If you whine like a bitch, but you still pay for it - what does that make you? An addict? If it offends you, stop giving them your money. Hit them where it hurts - in their pocket. Don't cry about how they're mistreating you while still rewarding them. If the cost/benefit ratio has swung to the cost side for you, be smart about it and walk away.


Why do they keep raising prices? Because people whine and cry online and think that matters. It doesn't. What matters is if they lose customers. The only question is does this matter enough to you to make you quit? If it does, then quit. If it doesn't, regardless of how much you cry, you're still buying into the system.

That's all well and good. It may even be true. However, I've never said I won't "vote with my wallet". Just because I'm here talking about my distaste of the change doesn't mean I'm not also out there, not spending money. You're saying that no one should voice their opinion. Either vote with your wallet and be silent or quit and be silent. Don't voice your opinion here, whatever you do! Why? Because you're much too busy to read it? If no one voiced their opinion, you'd have nothing to reply to and be snide about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTUAkqn_A7E

Mantic announce price rise?

Voicing your opinion on dakka is tantamount to lying down and taking it. If you whine like a bitch, but you still pay for it - what does that make you? An addict? If it offends you, stop giving them your money. Hit them where it hurts - in their pocket. Don't cry about how they're mistreating you while still rewarding them. If the cost/benefit ratio has swung to the cost side for you, be smart about it and walk away.

Why do they keep raising prices? Because people whine and cry online and think that matters. It doesn't. What matters is if they lose customers. The only question is does this matter enough to you to make you quit? If it does, then quit. If it doesn't, regardless of how much you cry, you're still buying into the system.

For a supposed "MOD" You are incredibly rude. Maybe you should mod yourself.

This is not a personal attack but a observation.

Havoc13 wrote:

Voicing your opinion on dakka is tantamount to lying down and taking it. If you whine like a bitch, but you still pay for it - what does that make you? An addict? If it offends you, stop giving them your money. Hit them where it hurts - in their pocket. Don't cry about how they're mistreating you while still rewarding them. If the cost/benefit ratio has swung to the cost side for you, be smart about it and walk away.

Why do they keep raising prices? Because people whine and cry online and think that matters. It doesn't. What matters is if they lose customers. The only question is does this matter enough to you to make you quit? If it does, then quit. If it doesn't, regardless of how much you cry, you're still buying into the system.

For a supposed "MOD" You are incredibly rude. Maybe you should mod yourself.

This is not a personal attack but a observation.

^
QFT

Havoc13 wrote:

Voicing your opinion on dakka is tantamount to lying down and taking it. If you whine like a bitch, but you still pay for it - what does that make you? An addict? If it offends you, stop giving them your money. Hit them where it hurts - in their pocket. Don't cry about how they're mistreating you while still rewarding them. If the cost/benefit ratio has swung to the cost side for you, be smart about it and walk away.

Why do they keep raising prices? Because people whine and cry online and think that matters. It doesn't. What matters is if they lose customers. The only question is does this matter enough to you to make you quit? If it does, then quit. If it doesn't, regardless of how much you cry, you're still buying into the system.

For a supposed "MOD" You are incredibly rude. Maybe you should mod yourself.

This is not a personal attack but a observation.

Um, actually that -is- a personal attack bud.

Mods are posters too. They can express themselves however they please, but once the big red text comes out? That's when they're acting "officially" and should be as polite and professional(as professional as volunteers who get paid nothing and get no real special perks can be ) as possible.

Just to be clear, I'm not a forum mod, I'm just a poster here. I help out with the article system.

And. . . back to the topic before this one gets locked down too.

GW raises prices and all is right with the world. This is likely brought on by "elevated oil prices" at least that's what GW will say.

I think Redbeard is right and people are being whiny. I stopped buying GW in any significant quantity, just the very rare occasional kit. For that I don't have much right to complain but even if I wanted to complain this isn't the venue. Dakka is not the venue for voicing anger at GW raising prices. Speak with your dollar.

Supply and demand dictate that if demand declines they will have to reduce prices or fail.

People can, and should, be able to discuss this in such a way as to avoid unnecessary rudeness and thread-lock.

People should feel free to voice their opinions on this here AND with their wallets.

Topics DO get a certain exposure with the powers that be here on Dakka.

But this carries little to no weight when it comes to actual decision making.

The almighty dollar (or local currency of your choice) is what matters in the end.

aka_mythos wrote:GW raises prices and all is right with the world. This is likely brought on by "elevated oil prices" at least that's what GW will say.

I think Redbeard is right and people are being whiny. I stopped buying GW in any significant quantity, just the very rare occasional kit. For that I don't have much right to complain but even if I wanted to complain this isn't the venue. Dakka is not the venue for voicing anger at GW raising prices. Speak with your dollar.

Supply and demand dictate that if demand declines they will have to reduce prices or fail.

increases, decreases in cost,

what wargames manufacturers produce,

and what we, the gamer have to say about them are ALL relevant on a forum that is dedicated to wargames and wargamers.
A forum is just an alternative venue to talk about such things.

to me the ones that will be really hurt by the price increase are the addicts and people that gotta start a new army every year or need to buy every new kit just because it's a new kit. IMO the "average player" just has 1 or 2 armies and only buys things occasionally. Just using my club as an example, I've been with em going on 10 years and most of the guys have been playing the same couple armies for that long. they're perfectly happy playing their army once a month and adding a box of something to it every 4 or 5 months.

I don't like having to pay more but to be honest I'll continue to pay whatever the price is for as long as I feel I'm getting my money's worth out of what I'm buying.. and the time spent & enjoyment building and painting and playing with a $35 box of army men or a $99 baneblade is a heluva lot more than I'd get out of a $70 PS3 game that I'd play for a week then shelf forever

Mistress of minis wrote:GW continues to find new ways to motivate me to make my own models ^_^

Oh wait, its not even new....its the same reason I havent bought anything new since 2005 when they first started to really screw us.

Wouldnt that be about 2001/2002 when they removed internet cart shopping?

As a new player (just the past 3 months) to Warhammer 40k I already thought the cost points were pretty high. Like the majority of people I am not happy about the increases. Will I continue to play and buy new models books? Yes, but it will be at a much slower pace and due to that I will spend less over all then I would have. If it is a choice between food or rent and Warhammer then there is no choice to make. It's a personal choice on how I spend my extra income and how many hours of gaming goodness I feel I'm getting for my hard earned dollar. I guess for me it's still worth it, but only barely.

As for the price increase on ABR I'm with BeastsofWar and a lot of others. ABR should be dropped in price or kept the same. If you can't draw people into the game then in 5, 10, 15 years who will be there to funnel money into the GW machine?

Additionally, I was thinking about getting into WHFB when the new manual is released. Now I will have to seriously evaluate my decision before making that sort of an investment into another GW game.

Ah price increases, oh yay, my scalding sarcasim can even come accross for this lol. Seriously, bottom line is this, GW uped their prices X amount for a number of items, I hear 15-20 % is the average. Why they did this, we don't know, we have many theorys but it is not like GW is going to tell us any time soon. So our options are this.
1) Stick with the hobby and find alternative plastics, and never play in tournys.

2) Stay with the hobby, accept the price hike as it is and continue to buy GW products.

3) Quit GW wargames all together and go to the less well known but still much fun alternatives, Warmachine, or Flames of War for example.

I do agree though that they should change starter sets, and army boxes should come with your HQ/General, and 2+ core/troop choices. And even the points out. You should be able to buy an army box and have everything you need to play another guy with his army box, just mho though.

Mr. Burning wrote:All we can do is see how the price rises will affect GW when they release their financial statements next year.
I don't think that there will be a dramatic negative impact.

Or we could just look at all the previous years where they raised the prices by 15%. Sales revenue stagnated or decreased almost all the recent years inspite the price hikes. So they sold 15% less each year. Year after year. Guess what next financial report will reveal!

DruidODurham wrote:I'd just like to point out the fact that price increases in any industry are inevitable in the long run.

In most industries, there is a competition for lowering prices. Example: Would you pay double the price today for a car released 5 years ago? GW does that with Cadians and other products.

ivangterrace wrote:I don't really understand why people take price increases like this personally. They are a business and want to make money in the short term.

Problem is they don't. They lose money, they decrease sales, they lose customers. For years. And they go on with the same strategy.

vitki wrote:New people don't have the context to know it is higher priced and GW has stated they don't give a skaven's backside about the established gamer.

You don't need a good education to see that 100$ is a lot of money for starting such a hobby.

Gargskull wrote:As far as I can see GW do nothing to entice new customers relying intstead on word of mouth from the faithful, well that word of mouth is now telling people to just not bother.

puma713 wrote:The issue is actually not about me as much as it is about bringing new gamers in and watching the gaming pool shrink. The prices that are going up don't affect me that much. I am more offended about what they're doing to the newer players. If these prices had been in place when I first started 40K, I doubt I would have started it.

It is quite obvious that raising prices 15% each year is not a substitute for marketing your product. It is economical suicide, and the financial report shows it clearly. Now it hits beginners the hardest. The "no advertising" policy is bad enough for getting new customers into the hobby, making Space Hulk limited was dumb beyond words, now raising the hurdle for entering the hobby by 15% each year is just

If there's anything I learned in my economics class, it's that businesses exist to make money. GW may not actually make any money (in any length of time) by raising the prices, but at least they think they will.

The only thing I really worry about with the price increase is our FLGS. In my area, our GW closed down long ago because of issues with cost of rent, and there isn't one anywhere near my state. Our FLGS's is the only place to play aside from kitchen tables and basements (and less face it, if we had to pick the store or your house, were would you play). Our FLGS that actually sells a large range of GW product and has enough space to have more than 2 tables has already been scrounging around to make ends meet, even going as far to ask for money for 'Ard Boyz to help keep the store afloat. As much as the price increase affects the consumer and hobbyist, it affects the distributers also.

In an economy as uncertain as it is now, I would argue that a price increase by GW is ill timed and may mean the end of some of our favorite places to play. Truly a sad situation.

Kroothawk brings up a valid point - GW might need to consider advertising, finally, to increase their customer base!

Imagine that!

Alpharius wrote:Kroothawk brings up a valid point - GW might need to consider advertising, finally, to increase their customer base!

Imagine that!

Maybe they're counting on the Ultramarine movie to do that for them:

Moviegoer: Well that was pretty cool. I'll have to look into Warhammer when I get home.

Moviegoer calls around to see if anyone knows much about it

Store Owner: Hello?

Moviegoer: Hey there, I just saw Ultramarine and I was curious about what Warhammer is all about.

Store Owner: Well, you could come check out the starter box. It's a wargame between various armies.

Moviegoer: Oh yeah? What's it cost to get started?

Store Owner: Well. . . . .

Maybe so, maybe no. From an advertising perspective, the Dawn of War series must have reached out to a fair few people who otherwise would not have known about the hobby but I don't think there has been a massive influx of new customers.

filbert wrote:Maybe so, maybe no. From an advertising perspective, the Dawn of War series must have reached out to a fair few people who otherwise would not have known about the hobby but I don't think there has been a massive influx of new customers.

Exactly. To those that play the game, they love it for what it once was and what it has the potential to be. For those that aren't that interested in spending all that money, they get a similar effect from Dawn of War at a mere pittance in comparison. Why go buy the army and do the same thing that you're doing on the computer?

the 40k movie would be a great way to introduce people to the hobby that might have never heard of it, but since it's going straight to video the only people that will watch it are GW fanboys like us.

GW raises prices and all is right with the world. This is likely brought on by "elevated oil prices" at least that's what GW will say.

The Annual Report mentions the switch from metals with a volatile market, to plastics, which despite of oil prices fluctauting is far more stable.

And as we demonstrated this year, we have mitigated the risk of metal cost price increases by the continued development of our plastic ranges, where we are better able to manage commodity price fluctuations.

p7 GAMES WORKSHOP GROUP PLC Annual report 2009

It would seem unlikely that this would be used as a reason for the price hikes.
AFAIK despite some recent petrol price increases here in the UK the cost of oil has not shifted as dramatically as it had a couple of years back.
Also if the price increase was due to oil prices there surely would have been a more consistent rise in prices across the entire range to offset higher production costs.

GW have been selective of the products with a varied rate of price increase.

If GW wants to fix their "financial woes" they should look around at other miniature producing companies. There's one thing that GW does, the others don't.

Operate their own stores.

Maybe if they stopped being tools to retailers/distributors and embraced the internet better, they wouldn't need to have GW stores. The amount of overhead they could cut is insane.

I can't speak for countries outside the U.S., but there are FLGS in just about every town in some form. Coupled with the fact that GW stores only sell their product, they have become a niche store in a niche market. Most FLGS sell a mixed bag to cater to all, and most squeak by with those offerings. It doesn't help that most FLGS, online or not, are willing to give discounts that GW will not compete with.

They should close their stores and go back to the Rogue Trader program. Pay people to be area/traveling gamers/promoters. Back in the day, I would hit the store everytime I knew the RT dude was coming in. Games, prizes, demos, sneak peaks, etc... It also meant that would by something almost everytime.

Hard to resist when someone is shaking the new hotness coming down the pipe right in front of you.

Anyone remembers the time, when GW said they wanted to do more plastic kits to make the hobby cheaper?
Now old Steel Legion is cheaper than old plastic Cadians and Catachans!

BTW many veterans got into the hobby by Heroquest and Space Crusade (and in Germany into LOTR by a "magazine with GW sprue" combo, the reason why LOTR is still popular in Germany and no other country). Why? Because those non-GW companies distributing these made professional advertising. Talking to someone who already IS in your store is not enough, forcing someone to pay 8$ to see your shiny pictures in a magazine (WD) is not advertising. Esp. when your pricing policy and your main target customer, teens, don't match.

Kroothawk wrote:Anyone remembers the time, when GW said they wanted to do more plastic kits to make the hobby cheaper?
Now old Steel Legion is cheaper than old plastic Cadians and Catachans!

I do. I still have the white dwarf where they said they are planing on having the majority of their core/common/whatever troops done in plastic by...the far off future of the year 2000!

Of course, plastic boxed sets of 20 skellies/ 10 space marines/ 16 chaos warriors/ etc. were $18 then.

So we all hoped to have an army be possible for less than $200 considering what core/troops were going for then. And most times it was very possible.

Then those very same plastic boxes went from $18 to $20. A lot of people whined then (locally and not much on the internet since this was circa 1997) because they couldnt pick up 5 boxed sets for $100 and then have enough for a couple blisters too.

At least now you ALMOST have enough to buy two boxes of space marines and a blister. Almost.

I just dont understand what everybody is so cranky about *ducks*.


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Kroothawk wrote:Anyone remembers the time, when GW said they wanted to do more plastic kits to make the hobby cheaper?
Now old Steel Legion is cheaper than old plastic Cadians and Catachans!

I do. I still have the white dwarf where they said they are planing on having the majority of their core/common/whatever troops done in plastic by...the far off future of the year 2000!

Of course, plastic boxed sets of 20 skellies/ 10 space marines/ 16 chaos warriors/ etc. were $18 then.

So we all hoped to have an army be possible for less than $200 considering what core/troops were going for then. And most times it was very possible.

Then those very same plastic boxes went from $18 to $20. A lot of people whined then (locally and not much on the internet since this was circa 1997) because they couldnt pick up 5 boxed sets for $100 and then have enough for a couple blisters too.

At least now you ALMOST have enough to buy two boxes of space marines and a blister. Almost.

I just dont understand what everybody is so cranky about *ducks*.

Hilarious. I wonder how many black reach boxes they'll move at that price.
Black Reach was worth it to split with a friend and each take half. Now, new players should just buy a battleforce. No reason to spend that much to get crappy models.
Codexes were overpriced at $20, 29 is really too much.

Let's take a look at newcomers Mantic Games:
One year of their magazine: $15 (White Dwarf: $75)
Box of 20 Skeletons: $25 (VC skeletons are $22 for 10)

The only downside to Mantic so far is that they've only released two armies, and it hasn't gained enough popularity yet to have opponents. Once these guys take off, that's another nail in the GW coffin.
Either way, I'll be subscribing to their magazine to see what's going on with them.

¬¬ Sixk of this like th 3rd of 4th price rise within 8 years gawk. Gunna start spending online. Worse part is they think peopel will buy loads before price rise .

Hellfury wrote:
I just dont understand what everybody is so cranky about *ducks*.

I'm cranky because my wife has been out of town for a week - you do the math.

More relevant to this thread, I'm cranky because it's the same thread as last year and the year before and the year before. No one is learning anything.

Fact: None of us like prices going up.
Fact: Only a few of us have stopped buying miniatures because of increased prices.
Theory: Maybe GW, the publicly traded company with a professional corporate finance department actually do understand that their customer base is largely price insensitive. Perhaps they have a better grasp of their financial picture than a handful of internet posters who don't even have access to their sales figures.

I mean, all this doom and gloom, end of the company stuff. Prices have gone up every year for the last six years, and each time it's the end of the company. And yet, here we all are, saying the same crap over again.

And, as much as I don't like GWs prices going up, I prefer that to my gas bill going up. The cost of food is more relevant to my daily life than the cost of toy soldiers. And at my job we get cost-of-living increases. Costs go up, but so do paychecks. So, no, I don't like it. But, it's a fact of life. Prices go up, on everything, from cars to gas to utilities to food, and yes, to toy soldiers.

If you think it's an unfair price increase, change the equation. If sales (not profits, buying from Neal doesn't help here, they're still moving goods) drop off, they'll be forced to re-evaluate their position. But if they don't - they're right. They're charging what the market bears, and that's the definition of a fair price.

Mad Rabbit wrote:Hilarious. I wonder how many black reach boxes they'll move at that price.
Black Reach was worth it to split with a friend and each take half. Now, new players should just buy a battleforce. No reason to spend that much to get crappy models.
Codexes were overpriced at $20, 29 is really too much.

Let's take a look at newcomers Mantic Games:
One year of their magazine: $15 (White Dwarf: $75)
Box of 20 Skeletons: $25 (VC skeletons are $22 for 10)

The only downside to Mantic so far is that they've only released two armies, and it hasn't gained enough popularity yet to have opponents. Once these guys take off, that's another nail in the GW coffin.
Either way, I'll be subscribing to their magazine to see what's going on with them.

You're comparing a company that 99% of people who play GW games has ever or will ever have heard about with only two armies, in one style (fantasy), and no existing fluff library that people find interesting and care about to GW?

Dude, I love those skeletons too, but be reasonable. Mantic, while cool, is never going to make a dent in GW. Unless maybe they get a hold of the WH IP.


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Redbeard wrote:

Hellfury wrote:
I just dont understand what everybody is so cranky about *ducks*.

I'm cranky because my wife has been out of town for a week - you do the math.

More relevant to this thread, I'm cranky because it's the same thread as last year and the year before and the year before. No one is learning anything.

Fact: None of us like prices going up.
Fact: Only a few of us have stopped buying miniatures because of increased prices.
Theory: Maybe GW, the publicly traded company with a professional corporate finance department actually do understand that their customer base is largely price insensitive. Perhaps they have a better grasp of their financial picture than a handful of internet posters who don't even have access to their sales figures.

I mean, all this doom and gloom, end of the company stuff. Prices have gone up every year for the last six years, and each time it's the end of the company. And yet, here we all are, saying the same crap over again.

And, as much as I don't like GWs prices going up, I prefer that to my gas bill going up. The cost of food is more relevant to my daily life than the cost of toy soldiers. And at my job we get cost-of-living increases. Costs go up, but so do paychecks. So, no, I don't like it. But, it's a fact of life. Prices go up, on everything, from cars to gas to utilities to food, and yes, to toy soldiers.

If you think it's an unfair price increase, change the equation. If sales (not profits, buying from Neal doesn't help here, they're still moving goods) drop off, they'll be forced to re-evaluate their position. But if they don't - they're right. They're charging what the market bears, and that's the definition of a fair price.

Actually, we DO have access to those figures, and a not insignificant number of posters HAVE reached the same conclusion as you have.

The problem here is that Sturgeon's Law can be applied to people. 90% of people on the internet are not thinking logically, substituting how they feel about a given situation for any actual data.

Ostrakon wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:
Let's take a look at newcomers Mantic Games... etc...
One year of their magazine: $15 (White Dwarf: $75)

You're comparing a company that 99% of people who play GW games has ever or will ever have heard about with only two armies, in one style (fantasy), and no existing fluff library that people find interesting and care about to GW?

Dude, I love those skeletons too, but be reasonable. Mantic, while cool, is never going to make a dent in GW. Unless maybe they get a hold of the WH IP.

Point 1: Mantic is in it's infancy, and it won't be the last fantasy plastic producer.
Point 2: GW would love to own things like 'Elf' or 'Orc' but it doesn't. There are plenty out there who already make metal minis better than GWs, take another look at gamezone miniatures. Once the plastic moulding tech is more widely available, GW will find it's self entrenched and at war in Fantasy mini market.

Ah, but the real money is in 40k!...

Point 3: Granted the Space Marine armour is an image that GW can call it's own, Post Apocalyptic Orks, Biomechanical Xenomorphs, Space Elves or Near Future WW3 trenchcoat wearing humans isn't. Others will push the boundaries to their limits as the plastics technology becomes more readily available. And someone producing 'Space knights' in powered armour that look as good as, but different enough to, space marines, isn't out of the question either...

Ostrakon wrote:
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Redbeard wrote:
More relevant to this thread, I'm cranky because it's the same thread as last year and the year before and the year before. No one is learning anything.

Fact: None of us like prices going up.
Fact: Only a few of us have stopped buying miniatures because of increased prices.
Theory: Maybe GW, the publicly traded company with a professional corporate finance department actually do understand that their customer base is largely price insensitive. Perhaps they have a better grasp of their financial picture than a handful of internet posters who don't even have access to their sales figures.

I mean, all this doom and gloom, end of the company stuff. Prices have gone up every year for the last six years, and each time it's the end of the company. And yet, here we all are, saying the same crap over again.
And, as much as I don't like GWs prices going up, I prefer that to my gas bill going up. The cost of food is more relevant to my daily life than the cost of toy soldiers. And at my job we get cost-of-living increases. Costs go up, but so do paychecks. So, no, I don't like it. But, it's a fact of life. Prices go up, on everything, from cars to gas to utilities to food, and yes, to toy soldiers.
If you think it's an unfair price increase, change the equation. If sales (not profits, buying from Neal doesn't help here, they're still moving goods) drop off, they'll be forced to re-evaluate their position. But if they don't - they're right. They're charging what the market bears, and that's the definition of a fair price.

Actually, we DO have access to those figures, and a not insignificant number of posters HAVE reached the same conclusion as you have.
The problem here is that Sturgeon's Law can be applied to people. 90% of people on the internet are not thinking logically, substituting how they feel about a given situation for any actual data.

Actually we have no figures for how many leave 'the hobby' or convert to other wargaming directly influenced by the increase in price. It is highly probable that a number of those who remain purchase less, so you have some leaving and some buying less. There is no increase in the new recruits in the way we saw during the 'Red Age' or the LotR movie age, the posted sales figures demonstrate a profit greatly influenced by IP sales.

What the market will bear is not equal to a fair price where no suitable competition exists. That's what I call a monopoly.

As I've said previously, GW needs more competition to remain healthy. I like their IP, history and games/minis for the most part, it would be a shame to revisit this in a few years and be pondering what the Mattel prepainted marines were going to be going up by for the year.

What the market will bear is not equal to a fair price where no suitable competition exists. That's what I call a monopoly.

Bang on the money
well, if not wholly correct to say that GW is a monopoly, it is as near as damn it.

GW knows that the demand is elastic. ie it doesn't conform to normal supply and demand, whereby demand will fall off if price increases. The lack of an effective competition further stretches the elasticity.

If this discussion has re occured annually for the last 6 years, it suggests that many continue buying, and there is plenty of fresh blood to be sucked dry despite the increased prices.

LEEQAEX wrote:Worse part is they think peopel will buy loads before price rise .

Actually this is the worse part. Because people actually will do this. No offence to anyone but who ever is suckered into doing this is just doing what GW want you to do so at least there ickle bit of report can show some increases.

Redbeard wrote:
Fact: Only a few of us have stopped buying miniatures because of increased prices.
Theory: Maybe GW, the publicly traded company with a professional corporate finance department actually do understand that their customer base is largely price insensitive. Perhaps they have a better grasp of their financial picture than a handful of internet posters who don't even have access to their sales figures.

The problem with this is two fold: One, this isn't the only time this has happened, and each time, a percentage of the existing base is lost that is not being made up as quickly by new players coming in, due to increased costs. GW is aware that new players are their prime source of income,however: they do not seem to realize that increased prices reduce the likelihood that someone will buy their products. GW has, in the past, made it clear that once you've already bought their products, you're dirt that is not welcome in their stores again until the next product line comes out, at which point you may be allowed to purchase their products again with your filthy money.

The second problem is: GW depends, probably more then it realizes, on word of mouth to sell it's products. If they come across as jerks to people, then they won't buy from them, and will end up getting into another game. As an example of this, see Pathfinder's sales against D&D 4e. Pathfinder is making inroads into what was, traditionally, a license to bilk nerds. Why? Because WotC (Hasbro) is perceived in a negative manner by a significant body of the fanbase who are traditionally resistant to change. Pathfinder is largely based off the 3.5 rule-set, and Paizo is seen as a victim of Hasbro's heavy handed destruction of Dragon Magazine. There are other reasons for this as well, but those are the ones that spring to mind.

Does this mean that GW is doomed? No. It means that they aren't making as much money as they could be, however. Higher volume at lower costs is the same profit, and will engender more repeat customers, which creates a higher long term profit.

I'm convinced that it is price fixing, pure and simple and good luck to anyone who want's to convince me otherwise.

This is a pretty clear example of why I believe this;

ORK BOYZ £12.00 £15.00
ORK LOOTAS AND BURNAS £13.50 £15.00

There you have two sets of the same plastic volume with the same size packaging and thus the same transport and storage costs.
One has gone up by £1.50 and the other £3, that isn't inflation and it isn't materials or overheads, it isn't even remotely consistent.
This is them stating that they think all plastic Ork troops (Nobz and stormboyz are also 15 each) should be the same price no matter their value in the game or how many sets you need, which flies in the face of previous pricing MO's.

I'm actually fine with them selling stuff based on how many/what size sprues it contains but only if they bring killa kanz and warbikes down to £15 too!

Ostrakon wrote:

The problem here is that Sturgeon's Law can be applied to people. 90% of people on the internet are not thinking logically, substituting how they feel about a given situation for any actual data.

Your self included of course.

You need to look up Elasticity of Goods, and the equillibrium point.
I don't Think GW or their professional corporate finance department has either.

I stopped buying years ago, I voted. I also hate seeing this thread year after year. But mainly because some fanboi comes out to defend them, and does it poorly.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

What the market will bear is not equal to a fair price where no suitable competition exists. That's what I call a monopoly.

Bang on the money
well, if not wholly correct to say that GW is a monopoly, it is as near as damn it.

They're only a monopoly because many gamers allow it. GW tell people only to buy and use their miniatures and they do! I don't know why, but some people take the "no non-GW" with them home and think it applies outside the shop in private games. Turn up in some places with a non-GW army and people act like there's something wrong with it. But in general gamers allow GW to call the shots instead of the other way around. How many people actually field warhammer armies that are not entirely GW even though they rarely go to the shop or attend an official event? Surely the manufacturer of the models is an irrelevance as long as it's clear what they are, skeletons and elves are all much alike. GW don't really have a monopoly, they just pretend they do. Is buying only GW really worth it simply to have an army that satisfies their artificial corporate rules? Gamers should take back the hobby, tell GW that they'll buy their rules and make armies up however they want, they'll buy some GW, and they'll buy a bit of everything else. And it won't even raise an eyebrow when you unpack your army at an event. GW are a big fish but they need not be treated as the only one in the pond. There's loads of competition for GW out there. Buying alternate rulesets can be tricky when finding like minded players, but there's no reason not to buy models from other retailers.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Point 2: GW would love to own things like 'Elf' or 'Orc' but it doesn't. There are plenty out there who already make metal minis better than GWs, take another look at gamezone miniatures. Once the plastic moulding tech is more widely available, GW will find it's self entrenched and at war in Fantasy mini market.

Ah, but the real money is in 40k!...

Point 3: Granted the Space Marine armour is an image that GW can call it's own, Post Apocalyptic Orks, Biomechanical Xenomorphs, Space Elves or Near Future WW3 trenchcoat wearing humans isn't. Others will push the boundaries to their limits as the plastics technology becomes more readily available. And someone producing 'Space knights' in powered armour that look as good as, but different enough to, space marines, isn't out of the question either...

Well quite. In fact I've recently wondered why they keep Fantasy afloat. It's probably that they are too indecisive about it, a bit like the way they've let Specialist Games drag on for years neither supporting nor killing it. Being brutal there's very little unique about Fantasy, most races are in the public domain so there's a lot of alternative fantasy suppliers out there. As plastic moulding becomes cheaper there's going to be more and more manufacturers offering exactly what GW do for a lot less. I also get the impression that it's 40K that pulls in the most money, especially Space Marines, but much of the 40K is unique to them. The stores don't take that much money, most of their profits are coming from licensing which hides their poor sales. They're virtually at the point where the IP of the company seems to be keeping them going. It would probably be best to wind up Fantasy and go full time into 40K as they own most of the imagery in that or sell the IP off in one go.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
What the market will bear is not equal to a fair price where no suitable competition exists. That's what I call a monopoly.

This is an idiotic statement. You need look no further than Warmachine to see that there is competition. Mantic is competition. Further out, you have historical wargames like FoW, you have other games that aren't wargames (like MtG or D&D). The only thing GW has a monopoly on is GW games.

Gargskull wrote:I'm convinced that it is price fixing, pure and simple and good luck to anyone who want's to convince me otherwise.

This is a pretty clear example of why I believe this;

ORK BOYZ £12.00 £15.00
ORK LOOTAS AND BURNAS £13.50 £15.00

There you have two sets of the same plastic volume with the same size packaging and thus the same transport and storage costs.

This shows a lack of understanding of pricing. As you've pointed out, they take the same material and packaging. So, clearly the variable costs are the same.

And, realistically, the fixed costs are the same. The same sculptors work on them, the same industrial mold-making cost, etc.

But here's the difference. The fixed costs are a large factor. If you consider that paying a sculptor a living wage means that he's probably making $50k/year, then the time he spends working on getting those models right is not an insignificant cost. If you further consider that the cost to produce the mold is in the hundreds of thousands of dollar range, well, that's not insignificant either. The fixed costs to produce a box of boyz, or lootas, is going to be the same, but it's going to be high, probably a couple hundred thousand all said.

The difference is in how many they expect to sell. If you play orks, you're going to buy at least 60 boyz, probably more. How many lootas will you buy? That means that the margins on the boy can be lower, because the fixed costs are being spread over a much larger number of sales. The lootas have to cost more in order to recoup your initial investment, because less of them will be sold overall.

This isn't price fixing, it's price setting, and it's a basic concept in any 1st year business class.

... if 'cost' has changed all that much, why do BFG battleships still cost the same? Most of them have ten minis worth of metal in them.

But that was my question last year with the 'the cost of metal is increasing' excuse. I wonder what it will be this year?

Gargskull wrote:I'm convinced that it is price fixing, pure and simple and good luck to anyone who want's to convince me otherwise.

This is a pretty clear example of why I believe this;

ORK BOYZ £12.00 £15.00
ORK LOOTAS AND BURNAS £13.50 £15.00

There you have two sets of the same plastic volume with the same size packaging and thus the same transport and storage costs.
One has gone up by £1.50 and the other £3, that isn't inflation and it isn't materials or overheads, it isn't even remotely consistent.
This is them stating that they think all plastic Ork troops (Nobz and stormboyz are also 15 each) should be the same price no matter their value in the game or how many sets you need, which flies in the face of previous pricing MO's.

I'm actually fine with them selling stuff based on how many/what size sprues it contains but only if they bring killa kanz and warbikes down to £15 too!

The Loota/Burna box is metal, is it not? You get 5, iirc.

Edit: Nvm, I'm wrong. It's 5 plastics.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

They're only a monopoly because many gamers allow it. [SNIP] Gamers should take back the hobby, tell GW that they'll buy their rules and make armies up however they want, they'll buy some GW, and they'll buy a bit of everything else. And it won't even raise an eyebrow when you unpack your army at an event. GW are a big fish but they need not be treated as the only one in the pond. There's loads of competition for GW out there. Buying alternate rulesets can be tricky when finding like minded players, but there's no reason not to buy models from other retailers.

That´s what I did. I´m building an IG army that uses alternative models for the rank and file with modified Tamiya WWII kits (that look much better than the LRBT) with some GW stuff that I like HWT, Command Squad. Not that I have played much lately but as I keep saying, I play the most popular rule set not the miniatures.

Well quite. In fact I've recently wondered why they keep Fantasy afloat. [SNIP]

In Continental Europe, at least until I left for Japan, WHFB was more popular than 40K. Back when I was in Uni everybody in the hobby had a fantasy army, perhaps because other miniatures were available or because it ties more closely to DnD, while only the more "wargamery" of the lot played 40K. Now I´m cut from the pipeline so I can´t say if this continues to be so but that´s the reason GW still carries WHFB IMO.

M.

Ostrakon wrote: GW is stupid and run by short-sighted asshats, but they aren't evil.

I must thoroughly agree with that, because I legitimately believe that far too many people make up the company for it to be evil. At the same time GW has a long and gory history of poor management decisions (anyone who bought one of the old paint pots that wouldn't seal after using it two or three times, or when they tried to sell 9 paints for $25 when individually they were $2.50 knows what I mean). To that end I think it's safe to say that, like any monopolisticly competitive firm, they should charge less to plan for the long run rather than the short term. Plus let's face it, $25 for two sprues that make a Piranha is getting pretty silly

I'm seriously considering becoming my own distributor of miniatures. I have a brick and mortar store for another line of business and I may just piggy back it into one of the larger distributor companies for the 43% discount..

Sad isn't it? The lengths one will go through to feed a plastic addiction.

In that case, I guess the internet is the only way to purchase anything without killing what's left in my wallet.

And GW isn't evil. I've met a red-shirt (Or black, take your pic) that's been an actually decent fellow.

I haven't been to my local GW in a while, so I can't say about that, but the manager at The Block at Orange is pretty solid.

This is an idiotic statement. You need look no further than Warmachine to see that there is competition. Mantic is competition. Further out, you have historical wargames like FoW, you have other games that aren't wargames (like MtG or D&D). The only thing GW has a monopoly on is GW games.

This is why I made the comment that GW is not an actual monopoly.
However, it is not entirely accurate to compare GW to other gaming systems in this context on the basis that they are games. You could extend that arguement to include video games.

The video discussion had it correct imho when they differentiated between the dedicated GW gamer and the Wargammer, who has different systems.
For the former, if they want to play WHFB or 40K they are effectively stuck with GW. For the latter it is easier to say stuff GW for a game of soldiers, am off to play FOW. But some of that group will also wish to continue with GW games.
As mentioned elsewhere if you wish to compete at GW tournies then you really are dependent on GW products.

Effectively, GW do operate as a monopoly.

Perhaps it really is time to quit the hand wringing and say enough is enough.
Personally don't give a flying poo how cruddy the old DE codex is. I will continue to use it rather than pay nearly 20 quid for a glossy brochure that is likely to fall apart.
Will buy 2nd hand and scratchbuild and not hand over the readies until GW start behaving like good girls and boys.

I am in the fortunate position to be able to do this. I genuinely feel sorry for the poor saps that are gonna get clobbered to play their chosen hobby.
The price increase will be followed by some major releases, including the 8th Edition WHFB. That could prove quite painful for some if the points system changes as per the rumours.

By your definition, Warmachine/Hordes are also a monopoly.

PRIVATEER PRESS IS EVIL SOULLESS CORPORATION!

See how that line of reasoning works?

Rikashi wrote:I stopped buying years ago, I voted.

This.

I stopped buying years ago, but come around once in a while to check up on the game. I actually went and checked the prices on the GW website and my jaw literally dropped. I have no idea how people can pay such ludicrous amounts for 4 flimsy pieces of plastic. Tactical Squads were overpriced when they were $20 in 3rd Edition. they have experienced a 75% increase in price in 12 years since then. Codexes have gotten over a 100% increase in price. I'm...stunned that people still buy this stuff. I think crack is cheaper, and less addictive too.

Hell, I still play BFG, and its prices are the same as when I started. Someone care to justify why the fringe game costs the same but the more popular, mass produced game has gone up dramatically in price?

Mad Rabbit wrote:

Let's take a look at newcomers Mantic Games:
One year of their magazine: $15 (White Dwarf: $75)
Box of 20 Skeletons: $25 (VC skeletons are $22 for 10)

The only downside to Mantic so far is that they've only released two armies, and it hasn't gained enough popularity yet to have opponents. Once these guys take off, that's another nail in the GW coffin.
Either way, I'll be subscribing to their magazine to see what's going on with them.

QFT. I'll give you that yes, the company and their range are both small, but the value that they offer is nothing i've ever seen from Games Workshop in about 10 years. I'll be gettin their mag as well.

I've been considering revisiting my Vampire Counts army that I started so many years ago (the first army I collected). Originally just bought whatever I thought looked great, never really played the game much at the time. Now I've been looking at the Helikaeth's Legion set from Mantic to get myself started again, possibly buying a few other figs from em too for the fun. Now, I've just looked at the site again, and they're offering a free bag with orders over £50 until the 31st of May. Never seen that from GW. Oh wait, buy a years subscription to WD and get 1 limited edition figure...lame. Onto the actual boxed sets however, with Mantic you get 2 free models with it (although for the amount you get I wouldn't care dropping another fiver here, as well as what appears to be 3 cases for the figures. Now this costs £65 for 108 figures and 2 catapults, cases, poster.

Before the price rise, £65 to GW will net you 50 figures and 1 corpse cart and the codex/army book.

I know who's gettin my money. Hell, Mantic's own game might even be better than WHFB, although I haven't heard much about it tbh.

Kanluwen wrote:By your definition, Warmachine/Hordes are also a monopoly.

PRIVATEER PRESS IS EVIL SOULLESS CORPORATION!

See how that line of reasoning works?

Not really

and

REALLY?

unless Privateer Press insist that only their products are used, in which case possibly.

Also I said that GW effectively operates as a monopoly, and have twice stated that they are not technically a monopoly.
There is a subtle distinction.

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:By your definition, Warmachine/Hordes are also a monopoly.

PRIVATEER PRESS IS EVIL SOULLESS CORPORATION!

See how that line of reasoning works?

Not really

and

REALLY?

unless Privateer Press insist that only their products are used, in which case possibly.

Also I said that GW effectively operates as a monopoly, and have twice stated that they are not technically a monopoly.
There is a subtle distinction.

Does anyone else or any third party make Warjacks?
No.
Does anyone make add-ons for Warjack kits or warcasters?
Nope.

Hey guess what, that's a monopoly on production!

I might point out that I've never had a rep from Privateer press tell me I can't play their game because 1 in 20 minis I bought off them I had changed the heads to something they hadn't produced, either.

GW has done that.

Then you had a rep that took their "majority must be GW parts, excluding scratchbuilds" rule far far beyond what it's meant to be.


But hey, it's their tournaments. Their rules.

I'm still waiting to see examples of anything that's not a scratchbuild or an official Privateer kit from their tournaments.

Since you don't have to spend $800 to fit out a decent army, why would you?

It's like Battlefleet Gothic. Since it doesn't COST huge amounts, unless you want something like an Endeavor that's OOP, why would you take the time? the only reason I kitbash BFG is to get the odd ships out of BFGM that never had kits, like the Long Serpent, or to make a showpiece mini with a Voss prow.

I don't HAVE to do that to cut costs like a I do with 40k. While I like to think that my skills are improving with greens because of GW's price tyranny, it's getting absurd. Every time I save up enough spare dough to start looking at buying something new rather then resurrecting broken ebay minis, they jack the price up higher. And I'm getting fed up with it.

Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

I'm just going to post to say I'm surprised obliterators didn't go up in price.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

Now that's a bit harsh, lol....

However, PP has, and will again, not allowed players to use non-PP items in tourneys. So has Battlefront for FoW. The point is you can't call a company a monopoly based off of their rules that you use their stuff at tournaments that they sponsor or support to gain access to whatever follow on tourney it leads too.

I don't agree with the GW business model they are using and most likely it will bite them in the ass some day down the road. How far is up to them and their players. Since I'm in their "old geezer" catagory, I don't count. I rarely buy anything new since I have 1.5 billion points of everything under the sun. I do feel that raising the entry price to their world is a big mistake.

Just look at the entry price for the average game size in any system, and you will see that GW is by far the most costly.

BaronIveagh wrote:Since you don't have to spend $800 to fit out a decent army, why would you?

Sorry, what does cost of armies have to do with anything? People complain about "oh, this sculpt isn't what I want" or "bleh, Cadians are so overdone", etc. Never does price come up.

It's like Battlefleet Gothic. Since it doesn't COST huge amounts, unless you want something like an Endeavor that's OOP, why would you take the time? the only reason I kitbash BFG is to get the odd ships out of BFGM that never had kits, like the Long Serpent, or to make a showpiece mini with a Voss prow.

Point. However, Battlefleet Gothic was also released at the same time as a lot of 40k/Fantasy units not having existing models either so the same logic there applied.

I don't HAVE to do that to cut costs like I do with 40k. While I like to think that my skills are improving with greens because of GW's price tyranny, it's getting absurd. Every time I save up enough spare dough to start looking at buying something new rather then resurrecting broken ebay minis, they jack the price up higher. And I'm getting fed up with it.

Then stop pussyfooting around, and quit the game system altogether. Put your current stuff in storage or sell it, and just quit until you feel the company and hobby have changed enough that it's time to come back rather than being one of those who are constantly whining about it.

Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

Originally I wasn't going to reply to this part, but since your argument hinges upon how I "sound" here goes:
This is one of those idiotic statements that make me want to smack people.
I have no problems paying GW prices. I have no problems with the way they run their business. I put aside a set amount every paycheck that goes towards entertainment.
Does it go to GW all the time? No. Do I look into other companies to check out what they offer? Of course, who doesn't? Do I think that, as a company, they can feth up royally like any other corporate entity? Sure. I point you to the Sega Saturn, Betamax, and any number of stupid ideas done by successful companies.
At the end of the day, that's all GW is. A corporation that has gone from where companies like MinMax, Mantic, Chapterhouse, etc are(small, garage based outfits that are looking to get whatever crumbs they can from the table of something bigger) to being effectively -the- biggest brand and most recognizable corporate face of tabletop wargaming.

Oh, and just as an afterthought:
When you go around stating things like "Jervis(who, by the by, doesn't have anything to do with the prices and actual health of the company) could rape me and I'd say it was my fault" makes your argument effectively equivalent to a moron tossing around a blinking light and claiming it's the sun. It's ludicrous and makes you sound like a blithering fool.

Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

In before whiny nerds complain that toy tanks are too expensive for their minimum wage lifesty...

Damn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Please consider what I have written. Because when I quite buying GW, I'll be selling my armies off and buying into Warmachine and possilby Flames of War. Not only will you lose my purchases, but you'll lose sales from the people who buy my armies- they won't need to buy anything from you as my armies are complete. Then, to add insult to injury, other companies will be getting my dollars and the dollars of my friends- which will further erode your market share.

For reference, when you're submitting open letters with ludicrously short lists of participants who all use anonymous internet names try to spell it correctly.

TalonZahn wrote:Now that's a bit harsh, lol....

Not really. Every time I see him in one of these threads he's up there screaming about how GW can do no wrong and is the greatest thing since particles fused together into atoms. And if you try and pin him down, he turns to the worst sort of circular logic. I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the people who announced their 'resignation' from Dark Reign's forums because people were too 'hard' on GW's interference with FFG's attempts to make good RPGs.

Of course, I was also standing at the door throwing flowers as they left, which resulted in my gaining the title 'scathing cynic' on that forum...

Only posts I've seen from you over on FFG was whining about Female Marines being "necessary".

Was adorable.

Actually, at no point did I ever state they were necessary, so you might want to learn to read. Though I did post in a thread where the op suggested that having no possibility of female characters for approximately 20-30% of the target demographic was going to cripple DW as a salable item. Which I agreed was not a good marketing strategy and suggested possible alternate explanations for GMs wishing to have such a thing, such as Doc Thunders idea.


Ah, I see Shuma has arrived too.

And, by the way, I was one of the winners of the ship component building competition on the RT forum there, so you REALLY don't read very well, do you?

Ah, I see Shuma has arrived too.

When nerds cry on the internet instead of voting with their wallets I'll always be there.

Shuma, I already voted with my wallet, so move along.

BaronIveagh wrote:Since you don't have to spend $800 to fit out a decent army, why would you?

It's like Battlefleet Gothic. Since it doesn't COST huge amounts, unless you want something like an Endeavor that's OOP, why would you take the time? the only reason I kitbash BFG is to get the odd ships out of BFGM that never had kits, like the Long Serpent, or to make a showpiece mini with a Voss prow.

I don't HAVE to do that to cut costs like a I do with 40k. While I like to think that my skills are improving with greens because of GW's price tyranny, it's getting absurd. Every time I save up enough spare dough to start looking at buying something new rather then resurrecting broken ebay minis, they jack the price up higher. And I'm getting fed up with it.

Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

So defending GW is equivalent to asking to get raped by Jervis?

I guess I really don't get the bitching. Compared to a lot of things out there 40k/Fantasy is cheap. As far as tournaments goes not very many corporate sponsored tournaments allow the use of another corporations products. You think drivers of Porsche's bitch when Ferrari holds a rally and ONLY Ferrari's are allowed to enter? You think some guy with a Nascar racing car throws temper tantrums because he can't race that car in a Formula One race?

Price tyranny? Wow, perhaps someone should get out in the world and do something other than play 40K. Bitch to me about price tyranny after you play paintball for a few years (and I mean hardcore tournament paintball, not "get together with 4 guys in the woods" paintball). Get a golf club membership. For what it costs for 18 holes of golf I can buy a couple of Battleforces and at least the minis in the Battleforce will last until the next codex for that army (or in the case of marines probably until I decide to quit playing) whereas 18 holes can be played in about 3 hours.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frankly, Kanluwen, you sound like the kind of person that Jervis could bend over and rape out of the blue in the middle of the street and you'd claim to the police that it was *your* fault for being too attractive.

In before whiny nerds complain that toy tanks are too expensive for their minimum wage lifesty...

Damn.

You missed it by like two pages, Shuma.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Please consider what I have written. Because when I quite buying GW, I'll be selling my armies off and buying into Warmachine and possilby Flames of War. Not only will you lose my purchases, but you'll lose sales from the people who buy my armies- they won't need to buy anything from you as my armies are complete. Then, to add insult to injury, other companies will be getting my dollars and the dollars of my friends- which will further erode your market share.

For reference, when you're submitting open letters with ludicrously short lists of participants who all use anonymous internet names try to spell it correctly.

But how else will they know you're superserial?

You guys are funny.

How long have you been married?

Kanluwen wrote:Sorry, what does cost of armies have to do with anything?

I think this is pretty much the crux of the entire explosion. Entry price is way above anything else out there, for a new person to field an army at common points levels. New players are freaking out because of the % of the hike. Older players most likely don't give a crap since they own everything. Although they don't help the situation with all the "Back in my day 30 marines was $25!" Which they were, I still have the box from 20 years ago.

So, what exactly is GW trying to gain from this? We know they want more money, but where do they think it will come from? The constant hikes will just continue to push people away. The more they hike, the more people leave. So they hike it again, rinse/repeat.

Someone already said it. Maybe they will either die or be reborn.

Either way, it should be a positive for the TT community in the end.

BaronIveagh wrote:Shuma, I already voted with my wallet, so move along.

But you are still crying about it.

If you are done buying GW than you have no room to bitch about the price as it no longer affects you once you've stopped buying. Cry about it WHILE buying, don't cry about it after you stop.

I quit playing paintball 5 years ago. I don't hang out in the WDP forums and bitch about the increasing price of Angel paintball guns or accessories as their product no longer affects my life.

New players are freaking out because of the % of the hike.

No. Lets be real here, new players for the most part won't even know this happened. They don't follow early price announcements gleaned from the internet.

Older players most likely don't give a crap since they own everything.

Funny how older players are the ones with the loudest voices in these threads.

Although they don't help the situation with all the "Back in my day 30 marines was $25!" Which they were, I still have the box from 20 years ago.

The models were also terrible and gave you lead poisoning 20 years ago.

So, what exactly is GW trying to gain from this? We know they want more money, but where do they think it will come from? The constant hikes will just continue to push people away. The more they hike, the more people leave. So they hike it again, rinse/repeat.

I haven't seen a convincing line of statistics noting a player loss due to price increase yet in threads of this nature. Nor have I seen it in quarterlies. They vented money on the lord of the rings debaucle, but they don't appear to have hit a price ceiling significant enough to cause a loss of business yet. Keep in mind the quality of the service they provide has risen significantly in the last decade.

TalonZahn wrote:You guys are funny.

How long have you been married?

Kanluwen wrote:Sorry, what does cost of armies have to do with anything?

I think this is pretty much the crux of the entire explosion. Entry price is way above anything else out there, for a new person to field an army at common points levels. New players are freaking out because of the % of the hike. Older players most likely don't give a crap since they own everything. Although they don't help the situation with all the "Back in my day 30 marines was $25!" Which they were, I still have the box from 20 years ago.

So, what exactly is GW trying to gain from this? We know they want more money, but where do they think it will come from? The constant hikes will just continue to push people away. The more they hike, the more people leave. So they hike it again, rinse/repeat.

Someone already said it. Maybe they will either die or be reborn.

Either way, it should be a positive for the TT community in the end.

How are new players freaking? If they are new they don't know the new price vs old price (unless they happen to start during a price hike). We also don't know how many people are being pushed away by the price hike. I bet Dakkaites THINK it's a much larger number than it really is. Reality is they probably lose 2% of the vets but gain 10% more newbs. See, I can pull numbers out my ass too.

That's the problem with price hike threads (or any anti-GW thread). 5% of Dakka thinks they represent 99.9% of the world player base. I always /facedesk when I see someone say gak like "the vast majority of CSM players hate the 4th ed. codex" or "Tyranid players hate the new tyranid codex and so GW must be losing sales on Tyranids."

Epic fail Dakka.

TalonZahn wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Sorry, what does cost of armies have to do with anything?

I think this is pretty much the crux of the entire explosion. Entry price is way above anything else out there, for a new person to field an army at common points levels. New players are freaking out because of the % of the hike. Older players most likely don't give a crap since they own everything. Although they don't help the situation with all the "Back in my day 30 marines was $25!" Which they were, I still have the box from 20 years ago.

The vast majority of the people complaining here aren't new players. They're people who you might put under the "older players who own everything" label or who also might be put under a label of "must buy since it's new!".

Of course, that same group also wouldn't care since they order online from discount retailers for the most part, or hit up FeeBay.

So, what exactly is GW trying to gain from this? We know they want more money, but where do they think it will come from? The constant hikes will just continue to push people away. The more they hike, the more people leave. So they hike it again, rinse/repeat.

Someone already said it. Maybe they will either die or be reborn.

Fateweaver wrote:
So defending GW is equivalent to asking to get raped by Jervis?

I guess I really don't get the bitching. Compared to a lot of things out there 40k/Fantasy is cheap. As far as tournaments goes not very many corporate sponsored tournaments allow the use of another corporations products. You think drivers of Porsche's bitch when Ferrari holds a rally and ONLY Ferrari's are allowed to enter? You think some guy with a Nascar racing car throws temper tantrums because he can't race that car in a Formula One race?

Price tyranny? Wow, perhaps someone should get out in the world and do something other than play 40K. Bitch to me about price tyranny after you play paintball for a few years (and I mean hardcore tournament paintball, not "get together with 4 guys in the woods" paintball). Get a golf club membership. For what it costs for 18 holes of golf I can buy a couple of Battleforces and at least the minis in the Battleforce will last until the next codex for that army (or in the case of marines probably until I decide to quit playing) whereas 18 holes can be played in about 3 hours.

*sigh* first of all, try being a reenactor with the artillery. Those guys should switch to cocaine, it'd be cheaper.

That said: Every time I see Kanluwen on this forum, if someone says something negative about GW, right or wrong, he's up there, even when it's an entirely indefensible act, trying to make it sound like they're so perfect they crap frozen strawberry yogurt. And he'll 'forget' facts between threads. Even one's he's posting on simultaneously. When confronted with facts, he tries to discredit them, and if he can't, he'll claim that the information is from an unreliable source. Like GW is lying to it's investors or something. It's like having a GW spin doctor wandering around the forums.

However, I'm a stubborn individual, and am not going to back down. "We'll, they're a corporation, they're in it for the money!" No gak! So are war profiteers and arms merchants, but I don't hear people singing their praises.

I'm sure Kan has his beefs with GW. Perhaps he's listed them and you didn't read properly or he just doesn't bitch for 10 pages about GW.

Trust me, I have issues with GW (well, in the past I did) and price is not one of them. If I think it's too high I'll stop buying and then disassociate myself altogether from buying GW and I'll STOP BITCHING ABOUT PRICES.

It's totally unnecessary to bitch about GW product prices AFTER you have stopped buying them.

Some "facts" posted by GW haters ARE made up. I hear terms tossed around like "majority" or "a large percentage". Those terms are fallacious in their use. You can't prove the "majority" are pissed about the price hikes, you can't prove the "majority" hate the CSM codex. You can't prove that GW lost money on the CSM army because the codex is apparently awful.

Unless the GW haters have gone door to door to every household on the globe and conducted a survey most of the "facts" bandied about by people like HBMC and you and MGS cannot be proven nor will they ever be proven. You 3 do not the 40k player base make so quit acting like you speak for everyone.

Sweet, 3 people at once on me.

OK, here goes:

New players that got in 6 months ago have some small vested interest. They have a long hill to climb and bitch because what was $25 3 months ago is now $30 with no improvements made to that product. Older players bitch because of the price increase vs. units required/made core/seen essential to win/play I.E. Cadian basic troops. My primary point here is entry price to the game will lead to people not coming into the game. See my point about common point levels played vs. cost when compared to other games. A 2000 point 40K army is far more expensive than a 2000 point FoW, for example. Just to save you the time, every low count army you toss out for one system, another system can do the same thing for less money. Even starter box to starter box.

The minis I refer to for 30@$25 were plastics. If you die from lead poisioning from a mini, you were bound to remove yourself from the gene pool sooner than later anyway.

I doubt there will ever be statistics as I imagine GW would be the only ones with accurate info, and you know they would never release them.

I never claimed numbers, not sure where you got that. Also, anyone on the internet knows that the majority lurk and the minority rage. It's like that in the real world too. It's also why I have @60 posts and you have almost 3k.

My original post was directed at Kan's #2 item. I believe that is their biggest hole in the entire business plan. No other miniature company does that.

I'm glad I could get you all to focus on me and the topic and not about Jervis raping people for lunch money.

Just remember what I stated in the last thread that got locked:

A complaining gamer is a happy gamer.

TalonZahn wrote:I'm glad I could get you all to focus on me and the topic and not about Jervis raping people for lunch money.

It is quite a vivid image, isn't it?

I might point out that I had been reasonable in this thread, a page ago when I first posted here, to have Kan inform me that GW has a god given right to treat me like dirt because it's 'their game, their rules'.

I might add that 'their rules' also apparently included the employee having the right to remove the offending heads from said minis when I refereed to him the exact wording of the rule on how much GW bits are required per mini. A loss of a grand total of about 45 hours of work. I was told by GW corporate that such matters were 'entirely at the discretion of individual store managers'.

BaronIveagh wrote:

TalonZahn wrote:I'm glad I could get you all to focus on me and the topic and not about Jervis raping people for lunch money.

It is quite a vivid image, isn't it?

I might point out that I had been reasonable in this thread, a page ago when I first posted here, to have Kan inform me that GW has a god given right to treat me like dirt because it's 'their game, their rules'.

I might add that 'their rules' also apparently included the employee having the right to remove the offending heads from said minis when I refereed to him the exact wording of the rule on how much GW bits are required per mini. A loss of a grand total of about 45 hours of work. I was told by GW corporate that such matters were 'entirely at the discretion of individual store managers'.

If that is true (I'm sorry I don't believe that GW are that pat in sanctioning wilful destruction of property) then that is for another thread entirely.

GW have a right (possibly the wrong word) to do what they wish with their pricing structure. It always comes over as harsh when someone mentions this, nonetheless, its true.

As a consumer I do not have to accept GW's pricing and am free to look elsewhere.

As for new players, they do not have any real price exceptions except that, upon entering the hobby, they should know how much they can afford to spend and will be able to judge how much enjoyment they are getting per $ or £ spent. If starter boxes are too much then fine, they should be looking elsewhere for their entertainment.

If the ratio of new players to players exiting the hobby drops then GW will probably have to look at alternative strategies (depending on how happy their investors are, of course).

BaronIveagh wrote:I might add that 'their rules' also apparently included the employee having the right to remove the offending heads from said minis when I refereed to him the exact wording of the rule on how much GW bits are required per mini. A loss of a grand total of about 45 hours of work. I was told by GW corporate that such matters were 'entirely at the discretion of individual store managers'.

Wait, hold on, the guy didn't actually physically go and break the heads off your models did he?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I might add that 'their rules' also apparently included the employee having the right to remove the offending heads from said minis when I refereed to him the exact wording of the rule on how much GW bits are required per mini. A loss of a grand total of about 45 hours of work. I was told by GW corporate that such matters were 'entirely at the discretion of individual store managers'.

Wait, hold on, the guy didn't actually physically go and break the heads off your models did he?

Its what it sounds like. I would have called the cops and then sued for destruction of my property.

Of course that wont hold up if I allow them to do that in order to play with my dollies in their stupid stores (thank goodness for the freedom of independent FLGS's).

Redbeard wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
What the market will bear is not equal to a fair price where no suitable competition exists. That's what I call a monopoly.

This is an idiotic statement. You need look no further than Warmachine to see that there is competition. Mantic is competition. Further out, you have historical wargames like FoW, you have other games that aren't wargames (like MtG or D&D). The only thing GW has a monopoly on is GW games.

Don't wheel out that trite bs at me.

There is no competition in multipart 'standard fare' fantasy figures, GW have a monopoly by point of saturation of the market.

It has no serious rivals atm, Privateer are making inroads, however their own prices have risen over the years and their aesthetic is a fixed one. Mantic are only starting out on their way to being a rival but they only have 2 incomplete ranges so far.

Your comparison would also include going to the pub, talking to your wife, working overtime and contemplating if you're the only real person and everyone else is robots... So who's making idiotic statements again?

7 alerts. Well played gents!