Since it was discussed/debated a lot in my other thread about Inquisition rumors, I'm making a thread exclusively for WH fluff, for anyone with questions or general points about the faction.

What were the sticking points of the debate?

It was mainly arguments about the Inquisition and their structure and methods, along with something I'm unfamiliar with called Convocation of Nephlim. It got pretty interesting, but hard to keep up with at times. The thread got put back on track before I got to put add input though.

I thought it was mainly between those who desperately wish the Sisters of Battle had nothing to do with the Ordo Hereticus, and those who have accepted their role as the Hereticus Chamber Militant.

And me in the sidelines pointing out how futile it is because there is no consistent canon in 40K and what is now could change next week at the whims of whatever new Codex is about to come out.

That Convocation is an agreement to do with the Sororitas being at Hereticus's beck and call since the Age of Apostasy. I think it's talked about in the WH dex.

You probably have a better sense of it than me, I had a whole school day and band concert in the time I wasn't on the forum. I mainly wanted to add the knowledge I got from Faith and Fire to show how Sisters could be more than soldiers that did everything with blind faith. Whatever their function and future in the game, I just wanna play the army. I'm fine with them being in the Inquisition as long as they have at least the amount of models they do now.


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Manchu wrote:That Convocation is an agreement to do with the Sororitas being at Hereticus's beck and call since the Age of Apostasy. I think it's talked about in the WH dex.

Oh ok, thanks. I bet I read it but just forgot.

To answer HBMC's call-out more directly, as I have pretty strong feelings on the issue, give me a pure Sisters army. If somebody playing Sororitas wants an Inquisitor, why not just have them ally like you were playing Guard? I still think DH and WH were put together in the early 2000s (along with the Inquisitor skirmish game and Abnett's books) to make the GrimDark a little more grim and dark. It was pure Sisters before and there's really no reason it couldn't be again. I'm really not even up for the usual suggested compromise, i.e. an Ecclesiarchy dex. The only freaks I want from WH are the Repentia--a.k.a., the only Sisters in that book that don't give faith points (for no good fluff reason). Keep the assassins, arco-flagellants, and tank-sized-toilet-mounted Inquisitors. All I want are girls in power armor . . . and maybe a few in less than that.

Lol. I got the original Sisters Codex for $6 on Monday and really liked it. I want it to return to that too, because pure Soritas is predominately what I'm interested in in 40k and think they deserve their own codex again, but on the other side I disagree when people are talking of selling their Sisters if they get another combined codex. My main point is that I'd never ditch my army in progress, no matter how they are in the current edition.

I personally like the Sisters alongside my GKs, and I hope they stay that way. I think fluff-wise it's pretty much decided as of the WH codex that the Sisters, while ostensibly the chamber militant of the Ecclesiarchy, are always at the disposal of the Ordo Hereticus.

Even though everyone else in the Imperium are nominally at the Inquisitor's call, the Sisters are specifically bound to the Witch Hunters and are always obliged to operate alongside an Inquisitor from that Ordo.

I can't see why they wouldn't be included as Witch Hunters, seeing as it is what they do. It only makes sense to team them up with a faction of almost identical goals.

Allies are being removed.

It's amusing to see people think the paranoid whisperings of politicians amount to fact. The Sisters have no requirement to serve the Inquisition, indeed, the Inquisition has to ASK the Sisters for assistance (from Andy Hoare in Dark Heresy: Ascension), not demand it. The Sisters serve the Emperor in the end, and noone else.

Manchu wrote:To answer HBMC's call-out more directly, as I have pretty strong feelings on the issue, give me a pure Sisters army. If somebody playing Sororitas wants an Inquisitor, why not just have them ally like you were playing Guard? I still think DH and WH were put together in the early 2000s (along with the Inquisitor skirmish game and Abnett's books) to make the GrimDark a little more grim and dark. It was pure Sisters before and there's really no reason it couldn't be again. I'm really not even up for the usual suggested compromise, i.e. an Ecclesiarchy dex. The only freaks I want from WH are the Repentia--a.k.a., the only Sisters in that book that don't give faith points (for no good fluff reason). Keep the assassins, arco-flagellants, and tank-sized-toilet-mounted Inquisitors. All I want are girls in power armor . . . and maybe a few in less than that.

Under your definition, there has never been a 'Pure Sisters' codex.

2nd Edition: Ecclesiarchy models and Frateris Militia
3rd Edition: Redemptionists (I soooo miss my Cultists of the Red Redemption, they were WRONG)
3.5 Edition: Inquisition (OH) and Sisters Mix

I was more rejecting a future Ecclesiarchy (as a compromise with those who'd be sorry to see the Inq's out) book than being nostalgic. It's similar to not wanting Ultramar Defense Auxilla or Chapter Serfs in a Vanilla Marine book. Unlike something like Tau and Kroot, Sisters would make sense model-wise, rules-wise' and fluff-wise on their own.

Manchu wrote:I was more rejecting a future Ecclesiarchy (as a compromise with those who'd be sorry to see the Inq's out) book than being nostalgic. It's similar to not wanting Ultramar Defense Auxilla or Chapter Serfs in a Vanilla Marine book. Unlike something like Tau and Kroot, Sisters would make sense model-wise, rules-wise' and fluff-wise on their own.

I'm a fan of more choice in the codex, so we're going to have to duel for the fate of the Sisters Codex.

My prob with an all Sisters codex is that it will:
a) have little variety (Cannoness, Repentia, Celest, Sisters, Dominion, Seraph, Retributors, Immo, Exorcist). 9 units for a codex not counting ded trans.
b) Be Marineslite. Above list plus 'Sternsisters' 'VanSisters' 'Lightlyarmored scout sisters' 'Heavyarmored assault sisters'

Where as with Ecclesiarchy and Inq, they can expand the base a bit to include OH and Eccles models and get us some variety that isn't just ShortRangedFemMarines.

The problem I see with continuing to keep two codices as opposed to a collected one is that you end up with two armies that are only lightly played, as they are now.

Both the DH and the WH are one-off. The DH fight daemons, so it's hard to justify why they're fighting Eldar or Necrons. WH fight heretics and psykers. So why are they fighting with the Orks?

A combined codex alleviates the problem somewhat, allowing for the impression of a collective of forces. I do like the Sisters, can't see why they would need an individual codex.

pretre wrote:I'm a fan of more choice in the codex, so we're going to have to duel for the fate of the Sisters Codex.

My prob with an all Sisters codex is that it will:
a) have little variety (Cannoness, Repentia, Celest, Sisters, Dominion, Seraph, Retributors, Immo, Exorcist). 9 units for a codex not counting ded trans.
b) Be Marineslite. Above list plus 'Sternsisters' 'VanSisters' 'Lightlyarmored scout sisters' 'Heavyarmored assault sisters'

Where as with Ecclesiarchy and Inq, they can expand the base a bit to include OH and Eccles models and get us some variety that isn't just ShortRangedFemMarines.

I agree. My army will be Sororitas dominated, but there is limited diversity: Sister with bolter, Sister with heavy bolter, sister with flamer, sister with heavy flamer, sister with bolter and a bit more gold, sister with pistol, sister with pistol flying. The inquisition retinue is a highlight for every modeller as much as the Harlequins for Eldar. I don't want to lose the female Inquisitor, I don't want to lose Karamasov on throne, I don't want to lose the assassins.

Noone hinders you to only use a fraction of the options in the Codex, why hinder others to use other existing options? The WH Codex and its model range is so small, that we shouldn't discuss how to reduce the few options even more. Just adding more ecclesiarchy units (like redemptionists and a bishop) would be great for everybody, so that some players can have their pure Sororitas army and others add some Inquisition to it.

The Dark Heresy RPG clearly shows the diversity and fascination of the Inquisition. I would hate to lose the models for this game as well.

pretre wrote:I'm a fan of more choice in the codex

So am I, which means I want the Sisters expanded in choice. I don't give a ratling's arse about the Inquisition. I never use them because I don't like them as an army (quite possibly because they aren't an army to begin with) and because their units universally suck in comparison to Sisters units.

Sisters can be expanded quite a damn lot if you put your mind to it. Don't act like a pure Sisters codex couldn't have a huge amount of choice. I can PERSONALLY prove otherwise.

Shabutie wrote:The problem I see with continuing to keep two codices as opposed to a collected one is that you end up with two armies that are only lightly played, as they are now.

Both the DH and the WH are one-off. The DH fight daemons, so it's hard to justify why they're fighting Eldar or Necrons. WH fight heretics and psykers. So why are they fighting with the Orks?

A combined codex alleviates the problem somewhat, allowing for the impression of a collective of forces. I do like the Sisters, can't see why they would need an individual codex.

Really? You have a hard time justifying why they would fight Orks? They fight Ork constantly.
Here's an example off the top of my head. The Ork invade a shrine world.

Giving them their own codex makes sense just like in 2nd edition. Give them a few more Eccleisarchy, a few new sister units and a couple new tanks and their good to go.



Here is the problem with a combined codex, they never do the sisters justice. Ever single fandex I've seen of a combined Codex always results in the sisters getting nerfed and I've seen many fandexs. On top of that it adds nothing new to a pure sister army besides a few updated rules.

I can't believe how totally I agree with Kroot.

The main reason I'd like to see a combined codex is because the Sisters aren't very diverse unit-wise. The main difference is a squad gets more special weapons or more heavy weapons. This makes the army, in my opinion, a little bland and not as characterful as certain other forces.

I also love the Inquisition units. You can easily make (or at least, could) a killer HQ choice with an Inquisitor, a few gun servitors and a spare henchman or two. They were also great to paint and convert, making them an awesome standoff piece to an otherwise uniform army.

Shabutie wrote:I can't believe how totally I agree with Kroot.

The main reason I'd like to see a combined codex is because the Sisters aren't very diverse unit-wise. The main difference is a squad gets more special weapons or more heavy weapons. This makes the army, in my opinion, a little bland and not as characterful as certain other forces.

So we shouldn't give them any new units? We should just ignore them since they don't already have much units.
Why can't we expand them? Whats wrong with giving them their own full codex with lots of new units?
I'm pretty sure GW could easily expand them and make them unique from space marines easily.

Shabutie wrote:The main reason I'd like to see a combined codex is because the Sisters aren't very diverse unit-wise.

This post makes my brain hurt. Don't you... just...god... grhlgklk.... GYARRRR! And other similarly dramatic jibberish.

That's the entire goddamned point of having a codex dedicated to the Sisters.

TO GIVE THEM MORE OPTIONS. To expand them! To give them more fluff!

It's stupid circular argument to try and say that they shouldn't get their own codex because they don't get enough options!

Necrosis wrote:

Shabutie wrote:I can't believe how totally I agree with Kroot.

The main reason I'd like to see a combined codex is because the Sisters aren't very diverse unit-wise. The main difference is a squad gets more special weapons or more heavy weapons. This makes the army, in my opinion, a little bland and not as characterful as certain other forces.

So we shouldn't give them any new units? We should just ignore them since they don't already have much units.
Why can't we expand them? Whats wrong with giving them their own full codex with lots of new units?
I'm pretty sure GW could easily expand them and make them unique from space marines easily.

See my above post on Boring Sisters vs. FemMarines.

Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy is what makes Sisters Different. Otherwise they have 10 choices or become MarineLite.

pretre wrote:

Necrosis wrote:

Shabutie wrote:I can't believe how totally I agree with Kroot.

The main reason I'd like to see a combined codex is because the Sisters aren't very diverse unit-wise. The main difference is a squad gets more special weapons or more heavy weapons. This makes the army, in my opinion, a little bland and not as characterful as certain other forces.

So we shouldn't give them any new units? We should just ignore them since they don't already have much units.
Why can't we expand them? Whats wrong with giving them their own full codex with lots of new units?
I'm pretty sure GW could easily expand them and make them unique from space marines easily.

See my above post on Boring Sisters vs. FemMarines.

Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy is what makes Sisters Different. Otherwise they have 10 choices or become MarineLite.

I disagree, acts of faith, living saints and their specalization in flame and melta weapons make them different, not the Inquisition. I have no problem with the Ecclesiarchy being part of the codex but I don't want the Inquisition in it.

pretre wrote:Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy is what makes Sisters Different. Otherwise they have 10 choices or become MarineLite.

I don't have that problem . I have an imagination and a spark of creativity.

Necrosis wrote:

pretre wrote:

Necrosis wrote:

Shabutie wrote:I can't believe how totally I agree with Kroot.

The main reason I'd like to see a combined codex is because the Sisters aren't very diverse unit-wise. The main difference is a squad gets more special weapons or more heavy weapons. This makes the army, in my opinion, a little bland and not as characterful as certain other forces.

So we shouldn't give them any new units? We should just ignore them since they don't already have much units.
Why can't we expand them? Whats wrong with giving them their own full codex with lots of new units?
I'm pretty sure GW could easily expand them and make them unique from space marines easily.

See my above post on Boring Sisters vs. FemMarines.

Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy is what makes Sisters Different. Otherwise they have 10 choices or become MarineLite.

I disagree, acts of faith, living saints and their specalization in flame and melta weapons make them different, not the Inquisition. I have no problem with the Ecclesiarchy being part of the codex but I don't want the Inquisition in it.

Okay, so how do we make a codex using just sisters without Marines Lite or only 10 entries?


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Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy is what makes Sisters Different. Otherwise they have 10 choices or become MarineLite.

I don't have that problem . I have an imagination and a spark of creativity.

So use that creativity, what direction could they go?

Also, do you have to be snarky? ;0

pretre wrote:So use that creativity, what direction could they go?

Also, do you have to be snarky? ;0

1: I've already done it.
2: Yes. I'm very passionate about this subject, and that comes out in the form of snark . I apologize ahead of time if it gets out of hand,

http://download200.mediafire.com/acd...sis%282%29.pdf
Here is a codex that makes them different and unique to marines and adds new units.

If your not creative enough to think of new units doesn't mean GW isn't.

Necrosis wrote:http://download200.mediafire.com/acd...sis%282%29.pdf
Here is a codex that makes them different and unique to marines and adds new units.

If your not creative enough to think of new units doesn't mean GW isn't.

Can't get to that site at work, so I'll assume it is something new. In which case, I would withdraw my crit.

I agree. But this is a thread based on the WH fluff where people are asking for a pure sisters dex. Personally, based on what has been said so far, I don't see a way to do that without Eccles/Inq or Boring.

Once again listen to what we are saying. We don't mind if we have Eccles units. We just don't want Inquisition.

My fandex isn't pure Sisters, which is irrelevant. The Marines codex isn't pure Marines, either (Scouts aren't yet Marines, after all), and Guard has Commissars and Primaris Psykers, neither of whom report to the Guard chain of command directly.

I don't consider that an issue, why would you? I have said, time and time again, that the Sisters are and have always been the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. And so I gave the Ecclesiarchy one HQ choice, one troops choice, and one fast attack choice, and kept an elites choice and heavy support choice from the previous codex (arco-flagellants and penitent engines).

Melissia wrote:
1: I've already done it.
2: Yes. I'm very passionate about this subject, and that comes out in the form of snark . I apologize ahead of time if it gets out of hand,

I maintain my earlier comments that Fandex is not a 'Pure Sisters' list, but a mix of Eccles and Sisters. No Inq though, so that's a plus for the anti-Inq crowd. Also has significant quantities of new types of girls, which is positive.


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Manchu wrote:I was more rejecting a future Ecclesiarchy (as a compromise with those who'd be sorry to see the Inq's out) book than being nostalgic. It's similar to not wanting Ultramar Defense Auxilla or Chapter Serfs in a Vanilla Marine book. Unlike something like Tau and Kroot, Sisters would make sense model-wise, rules-wise' and fluff-wise on their own.

You guys are getting all upset, but I was responding to this.

Please go back and see that yes... Some people are demanding a pure sisters codex.

Pure Sisters is, to me, the same thing as "Sisters + Ecclesiarchy". The two are inseparable, like Marines and spank.

Also note that I am pro more choice for sisters, more diversity for sisters, ecclesiarchy and Inquisition.

There's no reason all those things can't exist together.

Jsut because you don't want one part of it, doesn't mean you can't just ignore that part. I might not want TW Cav in my SW, but I can choose not to take them.

Yes I can. I do it all the time. I don't even call it C:WH except when I have to clarify; instead I say "Third edition codex Sisters of Battle".

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:So use that creativity, what direction could they go?

Also, do you have to be snarky? ;0

1: I've already done it.
2: Yes. I'm very passionate about this subject, and that comes out in the form of snark . I apologize ahead of time if it gets out of hand,

Passion is all well and good, and I imagine this hits quite close, but I think it's a little misplaced here. I understand the drive to have a separate codex for Sisters in order to give them some more flavor, but I think an easier move would be to just fold them into a combined codex. They are a neat army, but as has been pointed out, they're very much a Diet Marines choice. They have similar gear, but not quite similar abilities. Putting them in their own codex would cause them to falter as an army, because they're not-quite-MEQ. I'm not saying there shouldn't be an option to take them as a pure force, just as I would hope I could take GK as a pure force, but I don't think they'd be very well taken care of. As it is they occupy, alongside the GK, a rather niche set of forces.

I would rather hope for one really good Inquisition Codex than an updated DH codex and a forgettable Sisters codex.

If I may elaborate a bit; the basic battle sister has equipment on par with Marines, plus access to some esoteric gear options. Their stats, however, keep them from being level to Marines. In an assault, they are rather average because of this, if not quite a bit vulnerable to stronger forces. And there aren't any options to give them the strategic edge. Their heavy support can either be a tank or a squad of battle sisters with extra heavy guns. Their elites are battle sisters with better weapons skill. Their fast attack is either a unit of jump infantry that can't fare in an assault, or a unit of battle sisters with more special weapons and a transport.

Their flavorful units, generally, are very poor or are too tricky to be reliably used. Even their HQ isn't equivalent to HQs of other MEQ forces.

All very bland and doesn't offer any capable specialized units or even reliable general units. They can stomp all over other arms, if played the right way, but tend to have it tougher against other MEQs that don't require any special tactical genius to use.

If the choice is between a dedicated Sisters codex with revamped rules, units, and more choices, and a combined codex with GKs and other Inquisition troops, with just a slight rules update, I'd rather have that. I'd like to be able to attach a couple Sisters to make up for my GKs' shortcomings than wait another year for an entirely new codex that I won't play.

Shabutie wrote:I think an easier move would be to just fold them into a combined codex.

And yet, I don't care.

To explain without the snark, what's easy is not always what's best. I want what's best, not what's easiest. And to me, what's best is the Sisters getting their own fifth edition codex, not sullied by thie presence of some other faction that I don't give a damn about. I do not want to settle for less, which is exactly what you are suggesting to me.

That's fair enough, but I don't think it would be settling for less. You don't want to take Inquisition troops? Don't take 'em. I however enjoy the thematic and gaming changes such forces bring to the Sisters, and I think they are better off for it.

Shabutie wrote:That's fair enough, but I don't think it would be settling for less. You don't want to take Inquisition troops? Don't take 'em. I however enjoy the thematic and gaming changes such forces bring to the Sisters, and I think they are better off for it.

And there, you will have to agree to disagree. The only way i could be truly satisfied with the codex is if it had around thirty unit choices for the Sisters alone like any other fifth edition codex. I'm not even satisfied with my own codex, nevermind some half-assed amalgam codex which doesn't do justice to any of the three factions-- which is what I firmly believe any combined codex will be, no matter who writes it. The average fifth edition codex has 30-40 units in it including special characters and transports, and I don't think a combined codex would have more than this. Which means they would have to split the choices between Sisters, Grey Knights,a nd INquisition.

Which means the three factions would get less attention, less unit choices, less wargear choices, less fluff, and less of everything else. I don't WANT less.

This is agree to disagree land.

Two schools here:

1) Sisters and Ecclesiarchy or death!
2) Everything together is fine as long as everything is represented fairly.

Great place to leave off.

pretre wrote:This is agree to disagree land.

Two schools here:

1) Sisters and Ecclesiarchy or death!
2) Everything together is fine as long as everything is represented fairly.

Great place to leave off.

I think 2 is key here. I too would be sorely disappointed if the Sisters didn't get a fair showing in a combined codex, and I think that's the major point of contention here.

pretre wrote:everything is represented fairly.

I have no issue with the Inquisition being represented fairly, or the Grey Knights, and certainly that's what I want for the Sisters. The difference is that I just don't think it's possible to do so in a combined codex. A combined codex will represent none of the factions fairly.

Melissia wrote: The difference is that I just don't think it's possible to do so in a combined codex.

Fair enough. That sums up the difference nicely.

Right. I seriously don't see a codex containing nearly even sixty units being released. Thirty is more likely. So that means ten units per side. That's not a fair representation to me. That's not enough to expand the armies at all... Sisters already have more than that (two HQ choices, three Elites choices, one Troops choice, two Fast Attack choices, three Heavy Support choices).

Let's take a look at the chaos Codex were they decided to combine all the legions. How did that turn out? Pretty bad, yes the codex was powerful but the chaos players hated it and preferred the old codex.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:So use that creativity, what direction could they go?

Also, do you have to be snarky? ;0

1: I've already done it.
2: Yes. I'm very passionate about this subject, and that comes out in the form of snark . I apologize ahead of time if it gets out of hand,

Well, time only allows a first impression of your fan-dex. I will have a closer look some time in the future (will be travelling the next few days).

But here some first thoughts:

1.) A novice unit is a nice and obvious idea. Also the blade sisters (that even have nice models by Warmachine http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery/the-protectorate-of-menoth/units/daughters-of-the-flame , judging from the units name I assume you know them).

2.) The Codex does include non-Sororitas units, which is a good thing. Including the Zealots is essential for the Ecclesiarchy, found this only after scrolling through the rest of that thread, should be in the first post. And Zealots/Redemptionists have nice models (Necromunda).

3.) Introducing an inquisitor like HQ (Priestess of the Machine with servitors) that collaborates with the Omnissiah cult is something I can't accept for myself. Omnissiah and Emperor cult are clear adversaries. Such an obvious collaboration with the unfaithful (faith points!) enemy would be heretic and purged on sight. The original inquisitor HQ has no such background problems and a higher diversity of units, including the Sisters Hospitalis and Sisters Dialogis, which are sadly missing in your Codex but an important branch of Adepta Sororitas (with models!).

4.) To a minor degree, the Omnissiah problem applies to the Leman Russ fluff as well. This can be remedied by changing the fluff ("old template" etc) . I am not sure, if I want an ugly Leman Russ in a Sororitas army though. Can't imagine a conversion making them fit into a SoB army. A predator would fit much better (Rhino chassis) stylewise and backgroundwise. Even my current unit of a blinged up Chimera and Vostroyans (think of Russian Orthodox church) fit better stylewise.

5.) Did I miss the Seraphim? They are essential for Sororitas armies as I know them. Don't want to lose them and their models. They seem to be only in HQ retinues, but not in Fast attack and have no stats.

So much for now as a first feedback.
BTW, if you have a converted SoB army, please add a link to that as well.

What's wrong with the Witch Hunters dex including Inquisitors and EmpraFreaks?

First, there is no reason why this needs to be an Inquisition book. This is true even by fluff standards. There's no point in getting into the nitty-gritty over this (but I have before and certainly will do it again if pushed) so let me present a simple diagram.

Inquisitorial Organization <-----Death Watch-----Grey Knights-----Adepta Sororitas-----> Independent Organization

To address other points: Does the inclusion of the Inquisitor and retinue add for modeling options? Sure but that's no reason to burden the Sisters book with those units. You can quote the Convocation fluff all you want but at the end of the day it's just as easy for an Inquisitor to conscript a Guard unit as it is for an Inquisitor to conscript some Sisters. I don't hear a lot of demand for having Inquisitors take up valuable space in the Guard codex so I don't think I should hear that kind of nonsense concerning a prospective Sisters codex, either. Face facts: the only reason that C:WH is a Inquisition book is because GW was driving the Inquisition-line as hard as they could around 2003. As Melissa already astutely pointed out, the Inquisition is NOT AN ARMY.

Second, there is no reason why a Sisters book should be thought of as a Codex: Ecclesiarchy. The Ecclesiarchy is also NOT AN ARMY. The Sisters are not the army of the Ecclesiarchy, either. They are simply religious-under-arms (by a well-known quirk of literalism, only women may be such). There is a BIG, BIG difference there. A functional Sisters army will be built primarily as a Sisters army. That's not what C:WH does. It takes a cool, coherent force and waters it down with a bunch of things that do not fit the basic concept. Could/should there be Ecclesiarchy elements to a "pure" Sisters dex? Certainly! BUT they should be secondary, flavorful units and never be designed as the standard pick for any organizational choice. I don't want to get too bogged down on this point so let me try and be as clear as possible: a Sisters army should be perfectly competitive using only Sororita models.

I'm actually thinking that a better way to go rather than multiple Inquisition Ordos books would be to give Grey Knights, Sisters and (maybe) Deathwatch their own books... and then release an Imperial Agents book in a similar vein to the list of the same name in the 'Black Codex' from 2nd edition. Include Inquisitors, Assassins, Ecclesiarchy, AdMech units, Navigators... all of that fun stuff that doesn't belong to a specific army, made available to all Imperial Armies (or just all armies, if you want to add in some interesting fluff options for scenarios).

That would leave them free to develop the Sisters and GK's into full armies in their own right, while keeping in all the other stuff for those who want it.

Not surprisingly, I agree with insaniak. I would only add that Deathwatch could also go into such a Black Codex as they have no existence independent from the Inquisition.

Kroothawk:

1: Novitiates are already in, as a troops choice.

2: Faithful Citizens, Zealots, Arco-Flagellants, Penitent Engines, and the High Priest(ess) are all Ecclesiarchal units.

3: I have not read fluff that says they hate eachother THAT much. They both worship the Emperor, in different aspects-- and quite frankly the Ecclesiarchy is itself actually kinda fractured by many cults as it is, so it has no time to war with the Machine Cult. The two have a chilly relationship, yes, but not adversarial. Furthermore? The Ecclesiarchy has the money to buy stuff from the Machine Cult's manufactorums. And frankly, if hte Ecclesiarchy hated the Machine Cult so much, then techpriests wouldn't be allowed in the Guard either except in rare extremist regiments...

4: I can imagine it though! So it stays in.

5: They are in, I just forgot to copy and paste them into the fast attack section from the previous thread.

Oh and if Sisters are MarinesLite or Diet Marines or Femarines then what does that make Grey Knights? The fact that non-SM can wear power armor does not lend any support in any way whatsoever to the argument that Sisters should not have their own dex much less that they should be folded into some combined Inquisitorial dex. (The combined dex is actually one of the most rotten ideas that fans have ever dreamt up, IMO.) The reason that Sisters get such a bad rap for being Femarines is because C:WH is crap. Furthermore, C:WH is crap because it is crammed with Inquisition and EcclesiFreaks rather than more Sororita units.

Ideally, Sisters should be a middle ground between Guard and Marines. Individually, they are better fighters than your average guardsman and they're certainly better equipped although they have nowhere near the numbers to successfully wage wars of attrition like the Guard can (or should be able to do). But they're not as elite or versatile as Marines, either, much less as physically strong or tough but they do have greater numbers and a level of religious fanaticism that makes even SM look like heretics. I think they should be designed to play well as a mid-range gunline with the mech support to make that feasible. Rather than being thought of as Femarines, they should be thought of as squads of IG veteran sergeants in power armor.

I think a large part of the problem is that they are just a little too similar to Marines.

While it would invalidate an entire model range, I wouldn't mind seeing Boltguns returned to being the holy weapon of the Space Marine, and Sisters given Hellguns instead.

As opposed to making them too much like Stormtroopers?

If you're going to advocate a different weapon because they're too similar to one faction, at least advocate s weapon that wouldn't make them too similar to another one.

Besides, bolters never were holy weapons of the Space Marines.

I forgot to mention in my last post one of my key arguments against a "Codex: Ecclesiarchy" approach to the Sisters. Whether or not Sisters use Bolters or Hellguns and whether or not you can get over non-Marines in power armor, no one can say that Adepta Sororitas doesn't stand apart in at least one very major way: faith points. This little mechanic is extremely interesting. Since this is the Background board, there's no need to talk a lot about the crunch side of things. Fluff-wise, this is super interesting. Of all the GrimDark factions, only the Black Templars come close to the Sisters in their fear, suspicion, and hatred of psykers. And yet here is some kind of psychic effect at play in their very faith. I'm not saying that it is definitely a Warp phenomenon (Dark Heresy seems to suggest otherwise) but it damn well could be. (As an aside, the BT experience a similarly troubling phenomenon in their vows to say nothing of SWs' sagas.)

In any case, Sisters AND ONLY Sisters generate and use use faith points. Inquisitors don't do this. Not even the ChurchCircus sideshows can do it. It's Sisters only, except (for no good reason) Repentia. And just as much as their bodice-like power armor, faith is a major theme of the Sisters' crunch and fluff alike. For their army to work as it--in my opinion--should work, faith needs to mean a lot more to the army that it does in C:WH, where it is something of a sidenote . . . albeit the most interesting by far sidenote in that book. Some would say "just give faith points to the freaks" but that defeats the whole purpose. That doesn't sharpen and distinguish Sisters (which is what they need crunch-wise) but rather makes them more generic-seeming. So, I would say that if there have to be freaks in my Sisters dex, they should be like Vespids are to Tau Empire--kind of a neat concept, fits well with the theme, models are not bad BUT if you never took them or even considered taking them you wouldn't be missing a thing.*

*TBH I think non-Tau aliens should play a much larger role in any future Tau book for the title "Empire" to really mean anything. One of the only ideas more perniciously stupid than fielding Sisters and Grey Knights out of the same codex is giving the Kroot their own book.

Necrosis wrote:

Shabutie wrote:I can't believe how totally I agree with Kroot.

The main reason I'd like to see a combined codex is because the Sisters aren't very diverse unit-wise. The main difference is a squad gets more special weapons or more heavy weapons. This makes the army, in my opinion, a little bland and not as characterful as certain other forces.

So we shouldn't give them any new units? We should just ignore them since they don't already have much units.
Why can't we expand them? Whats wrong with giving them their own full codex with lots of new units?
I'm pretty sure GW could easily expand them and make them unique from space marines easily.

I agree. I think they'd be easy to expand, and would really like to see Repentia made playable this time around, with the Mistress being Faithful. As the codex said about pure Sisters being characterful, I agree, especially due to the faith powers and of course the whole female army thing. However, I agree about the different mix of weapons thing and don't want them to be like female space-marines. I think it's kinda cool how Dominions need transporters and count as fast attack. Anyway, does anyone have any ideas for any new Adeptus Soritas units that make them even more unique?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, I tried your link Necrosis and didn't get anything.

Deep Throat wrote:
Btw, I tried your link Necrosis and didn't get anything.

http://www.mediafire.com/?mzyjz1uqymf

Manchu wrote:Oh and if Sisters are MarinesLite or Diet Marines or Femarines then what does that make Grey Knights? The fact that non-SM can wear power armor does not lend any support in any way whatsoever to the argument that Sisters should not have their own dex much less that they should be folded into some combined Inquisitorial dex. (The combined dex is actually one of the most rotten ideas that fans have ever dreamt up, IMO.) The reason that Sisters get such a bad rap for being Femarines is because C:WH is crap. Furthermore, C:WH is crap because it is crammed with Inquisition and EcclesiFreaks rather than more Sororita units.

Ideally, Sisters should be a middle ground between Guard and Marines. Individually, they are better fighters than your average guardsman and they're certainly better equipped although they have nowhere near the numbers to successfully wage wars of attrition like the Guard can (or should be able to do). But they're not as elite or versatile as Marines, either, much less as physically strong or tough but they do have greater numbers and a level of religious fanaticism that makes even SM look like heretics. I think they should be designed to play well as a mid-range gunline with the mech support to make that feasible. Rather than being thought of as Femarines, they should be thought of as squads of IG veteran sergeants in power armor.

Grey Knights are Marines heavy. They have the extra rules and special gear that makes them stand apart from other Marines, and their general force organization is separate from that of other Chapters (i.e. they lack Company/Squad markings and really lack any specialized units) as well as retaining a method of operation unlike any other Marine force in the galaxy.

Sisters come across as a failed attempt at MEQ. They have the equipment, but lack the skills and background to make them stand apart. As you mention, Faith Points are all they have that set them apart (and BTW, I figured that Repentia didn't contribute Faith because they're being punished for a perceived sin and therefore appear to be less pious than the other sisters). They really seem like a mish-mash of troops that can be separated by slightly different load outs. Additionally, at no time do they strike me as an organized army or military force as they do muscle men for the church, to be seconded at will by the Inquisition.

Shabutie wrote:
Grey Knights are Marines heavy. They have the extra rules and special gear that makes them stand apart from other Marines, and their general force organization is separate from that of other Chapters (i.e. they lack Company/Squad markings and really lack any specialized units) as well as retaining a method of operation unlike any other Marine force in the galaxy.

Sisters come across as a failed attempt at MEQ. They have the equipment, but lack the skills and background to make them stand apart. As you mention, Faith Points are all they have that set them apart (and BTW, I figured that Repentia didn't contribute Faith because they're being punished for a perceived sin and therefore appear to be less pious than the other sisters). They really seem like a mish-mash of troops that can be separated by slightly different load outs. Additionally, at no time do they strike me as an organized army or military force as they do muscle men for the church, to be seconded at will by the Inquisition.

That cause Sisters aren't MEQ. They are far less points thus allowing you to field more of them. Faith Point is the center of the army. Sisters are quite organized, it just the Ecclesiarchy makes much use of large mobs and zealots which the sisters do not control. Also the Inquisitor doesn't control those mob, Inquisitor are usually shadowy figures to stay in the background and when they need to get a job done they use specialist not mobs since mobs have a high chance of causing collateral damage on the Inquisitor objective.

Not necessarily so. The Inquisition is played up as being internally disjointed, with some Inquisitors preferring the scalpel and others the hammer. I always understood it to be that the Inquisitors available in the Codices were those Inquisitors with either a considerable amount of tactical acumen or a preference for smashing out their problems, while other Inquisitors simply took the steps to keep a battle from ever ocurring.

Think of it like this. If an Inquisitor is after a certain item (an objective), do you think he's going to trust a bunch of fanatics to capture it? Hell do you think an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor would use a bunch of fanatics to fight daemons? He would probably kill them in order to avoid corruption spreading to them.

Melissia wrote:Besides, bolters never were holy weapons of the Space Marines.

There is a lot of old codices that would argue otherwise.

Personally,I am not a fan of the Sisters on their own.
This is because of the what seems to be a common excuse/reason people seem to have for wanting such. The reasoning often comes across as a type of feminist affirmative action based game design, where people want to cram yet another Imperium MEQ army down our throats under the excuse that Sisters will be "different" simply because they are female.

I am not opposed to the idea of an all woman army but the last thing this game needs is another Imperium based MEQ faction. GW already has at least 2 armies to many on the Imperium front when looking at the overall balance between races. I don't want to see another Xenos or Chaos army get the same treatment(condensing into one book) that the Eldar and the CSM's did just to make room for another Imperium MEQ Army.

Before another Imperium army is added there is a list of 4-5 non-imperiun expansion codices that need to happen. Until these expansions happen, I think a combined Inq+GK+SoB makes sense.

It makes sense because it is almost impossible to expand the INQ, SoB, and GK base mission concept enough to explain why these armies are out fighting everyone, while at the same rime maintaining what makes them unique. In order for these armies to retain their individuality their units would need to be limited in a manner that would leave them non-competitive on their own.

focusedfire wrote:

Melissia wrote:Besides, bolters never were holy weapons of the Space Marines.

There is a lot of old codices that would argue otherwise.

Personally,I am not a fan of the Sisters on their own.
This is because of the what seems to be a common excuse/reason people seem to have for wanting such. The reasoning often comes across as a type of feminist affirmative action based game design, where people want to cram yet another Imperium MEQ army down our throats under the excuse that Sisters will be "different" simply because they are female.

I am not opposed to the idea of an all woman army but the last thing this game needs is another Imperium based MEQ faction. GW already has at least 2 armies to many on the Imperium front when looking at the overall balance between races. I don't want to see another Xenos or Chaos army get the same treatment(condensing into one book) that the Eldar and the CSM's did just to make room for another Imperium MEQ Army.

Before another Imperium army is added there is a list of 4-5 non-imperiun expansion codices that need to happen. Until these expansions happen, I think a combined Inq+GK+SoB makes sense.

It makes sense because it is almost impossible to expand the INQ, SoB, and GK base mission concept enough to explain why these armies are out fighting everyone, while at the same rime maintaining what makes them unique. In order for these armies to retain their individuality their units would need to be limited in a manner that would leave them non-competitive on their own.

First of all there not MEQ, yes they have 3+ armour save but they only have S and T 3.
Also your post contradicts itself. You want 4 or 5 more non-imperium codexs to get an update, so to do that we combine the Inquisition Codex? Wouldn't it just make more sense to push the DH and WH codex back a bit and not give them an update? Also it's not impossible to expand the armies, it can be easily done, it just takes a bit of imagination. These armies have been ignored by GW and not given the proper respect they should have gotten and you want to continue this? Just because space marines hog everything? Sounds a lot like an eye for an eye.

They actually explained it pretty well for me in the Codex, I don't really care if they're included in the same book or not. But, more options for the SoB would be nice.

Basically went like this (not bothering to read through the entire thread as I've noticed it's more or less devloved):

M36, start of The Age of Apostasy.Vandire manipulates the Ministorum through assassination and brute force. This is also mentioned in the Tau Codex as they're discovered around here and Vandire is the reason the blue guys aren't long forgotten ash on some insignificant Imperial world. He manages to become the Ecclesiarch and High Lord of the Administratum. Basically giving him the same power as the Emperor over the Imperium. He starts fights and stuff and eventually becomes paranoid.

He discovers the world San Leor, on which is the Daughters of the Emperor. He renames them the Brides of the Emperor and makes them his bodyguards.

Meanwhile on the world of Dimmamar a sect called the Confederation of Light is formed. It is led by Sebastian Thor, who claims Vandire is a traitor. Pretty soon he gets a bunch of systems to join him, they get an army and go to fight Vandire. A warp storm interferes with the fight and becomes the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath. This destroys a bunch of Vandire's forces.

The Space Marines and Adaptus Mechanicus join Thor. The Imperial Palace is eventually under attack. Then the Adaptus Custodes get Alicia Dominica and her most trusted companions and tyake them to see the Emperor. After a while the doors open and they emerge changing the name back to Daugters of the Emperor and looking for Vandire, but really really angry.

They found him and Dominica said "You have committed the ultimate heresy. Not only have you turned your back on the Emperor and stepped from his light, you have profaned his name and almost destroyed everything he has striven to build. You have perverted and twisted the path he has laid for Mankind to tread. As your own decrees have stated, there can be no mercy for such a crime, no pity for such a criminal. I renounce your lordship, you walk in the darkness and cannot be allowed to live. Your sentence has been long overdue and it is now time for you to die". She then cuts his head off.

Thor became the Ecclesiarch and split the forces by forming the Synod Ministra on Ophelia VII. Then he changed the Ministorum back to the way it was and the Decree Passive, introduced in 288 M36. Thor disbanded the armies that Vandire had formed, but kept the Daughters of the Emperor, they became the Orders Millitant of the Adaptus Sororitas. The Inquisition was formed slightly after this so as to prevent it from happening again. The Decree Passive kind of stops the SoB from having ships and stuff, so without being attached to the Ordo Hereticus they would be stuck on whatever planet they formed on. They are the main armed forces of the Ecclesiarcy, but also the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. So they have to help them if they are requested to, but are quite capable of acting as their own force.

If they want to move to another planet, they might have to request the Ordo Hereticus to request the Imperial Navy to provide them with the means of traveling to another planet though.




This of course will probably be retconned by the next codex, hopefully the SoB won't also become BFF with the Necrons like the Blood Angels


But gameplay wise, the codices were basically the same with GK/SoB thrown in to make them different from the other. I think I might actually prefer a pure SoB codex, as they would never get all the options if they had to make room for the Ordo Hereticus at the same time. If they did it would be great though.

@Necrosis-They are in power armour and use the SM armoury for the majority of their weapons. So Yeah They are MEQ, Especially when spending Faith points to up their abilities.

And the post does not contradict itself. I was dealing with the realities of GW's bias towards giving Imperium forces the lead in updates.

If GW is going to update them soon then it should be a combined codex.
If GW holds off until some balance has been restored, has expanded the other races(More than one dex per non-imperium race), and has finally kept their no new ruleset untill all codices are current then and I can see the Sisters getting their own 'dex.

Even then I feel their focus would most likely to be to narrowly focused to field an all commers list.

focusedfire wrote:There is a lot of old codices that would argue otherwise.

And Rogue Trader stuff where non-marines had it argues otherwise. But humans have always had access to bolters. Imperial Guard has them, Sisters have them, hell, even civilians have them.

Marine codices can claim whatever the hell they want, it doesn't matter when every other codex ignores it.

the last thing this game needs is another Imperium based MEQ faction.

Good thing Sisters aren't MEQ ,huh?

All your arguments for them bieng MEQ fall flat on their face when you see the statline of the common Battle Sister, which is only a single number away from being a Veteran Guardsman (that number being the 3+ save). I do believe this argument is over, thank you.

Sisters are a middle of the road army, betwen GEQ and MEQ. They aren't, and never were MEQ (maybe back in Rogue Trader, but if you want to use Rogue Trader era stuff, then technically Marines are subservient to the Sisters because the Sisters police the Marines...).

focusedfire wrote:@Necrosis-They are in power armour and use the SM armoury for the majority of their weapons. So Yeah They are MEQ, Especially when spending Faith points to up their abilities.

And the post does not contradict itself. I was dealing with the realities of GW's bias towards giving Imperium forces the lead in updates.

If GW is going to update them soon then it should be a combined codex.
If GW holds off until some balance has been restored, has expanded the other races(More than one dex per non-imperium race), and has finally kept their no new ruleset untill all codices are current then and I can see the Sisters getting their own 'dex.

Even then I feel their focus would most likely to be to narrowly focused to field an all commers list.

Your post do contradict it self more and more.
Like when you say they are MEQ cause they spend faith points.

The problem here is your penalizing sisters cause of the space marines. Which makes no sense what so ever.

They're neither MEQ or GEQ, they're a hybrid of the two. So really you could say either one if you wanted to.

Or they could just stop labeling crap and accept that the Sisters have a unique role in the 40k Tabletop, a role filled by no other army.

I never really got it as well. SoB is just as long as both of those.

Melissa-I refer you to the above post, Yes, they are MEQ.

And their are a lot of SM codices and retcanned history where the bolters are a weapon specifically designed and reserved for the SM's.

Doesn't one of the Sisters books mention something about power armour and boltguns being normally reserved for SM's but while the sisters armour is purposely designed for the sisters they were a special exception.

As to the IG, Bolters and Bolt Pistols are a status symbol and rare.

focusedfire wrote:Melissa-I refer you to the above post, Yes, they are MEQ.

And their are a lot of SM codices and retcanned history where the bolters are a weapon specifically designed and reserved for the SM's.

Doesn't one of the Sisters books mention something about power armour and boltguns being normally reserved for SM's but while the sisters armour is purposely designed for the sisters they were a special exception.

As to the IG, Bolters and Bolt Pistols are a status symbol and rare.

Saying their MEQ just cause they have bolters and power armour is wrong.
If you had a model armed with a rapid fire gun range 24 Str 4 ap 5 and an armour save of 3+ but had the T of 6 and the S of 6 and WS 6 would it be a MEQ? Hell no it wouldn't.
And no the sister codex does not mention power armour and boltguns usually being reserved for marines. Heck don't tech priest use power armour to?

Yes yes yes, but nobody cares because they're Marine codices. Marines and spank go together like fish and water.

As for bolt pistols being rare, not entirely . They're just expensive. And therefor most people won't have one-- but they're not really rare. No moreso than, say, a quality sniper rifle, a power fist, a heavy bolter, and so on. Oh, by the way, Guard armies have lots of heavy bolters. In fact, there's more bolter weaponry in the Guard than ther is in the Marines. FUN TIMES!

focusedfire wrote:Melissa-I refer you to the above post, Yes, they are MEQ.

And I quote:

Melissia wrote:All your arguments for them bieng MEQ fall flat on their face when you see the statline of the common Battle Sister, which is only a single number away from being a Veteran Guardsman (that number being the 3+ save). I do believe this argument is over, thank you.

Fun times. No matter how hard you try and argue your point, it's still wrong. Sisters are not MEQ, just as they are not GEQ. What they are is Sisters.

Don't say something stupid like "hurr durr, acts of faith!", because that's not something Marines get. Actually, referring to Acts of Faith helps prove your argument wrong, because it is something that is, both in mechanics and in gameplay style for the army, quite unique to the Sisters.

Necrosis wrote:Your post do contradict it self more and more.
Like when you say they are MEQ cause they spend faith points.

The problem here is your penalizing sisters cause of the space marines. Which makes no sense what so ever.

What is the contradiction? You claim they are not MEQ because of Physical stats and I point to where you have a mechanisme that gives you stats that are equal to or better than an SM's when you need it. I don't see a contradiction.
You can claim that they have to be rolled for but there is a wargear that lets you pass the roll automatically. Not much change of gameplay when it is an automatic shift when needed.

Your showing a martyr complex here. It is not centered on just Sisters, It is greyknights and any other power armored army that would take up space in the release schedule under the Imperium banner. The Average Armour is supposed to be Armour save 4+, Strength is supposed to be 3(Sisters can boost to 5), Toughness is supposed to be 3(Sisters have this but can grab a 2+ save when needed), Initiative 3(Sisters can jump to 5-6), WS 3 (More than half of their units have WS 4), BS 3 (Sisters are BS 4)

The point I'm making is that their are already to many Armor save 3+ armies with rediculous physical stats. There is no justification to bring out another(With the exception of if it makes GW lots of money).

focusedfire wrote:The point I'm making

The point you're FAILING to make, you mean. An army having 3+ saves in it does not make MEQ. Or else pretty much every army but Guard and Dark Eldar is MEQ, making the definition worthless. If you define "MEQ" as merely having a 3+ save, then quite frankly I have no reason to consider your argument seriously in the first place.

MEQ is more than just the armor save. Battle Sisters have more in common with Guardsmen than they do with Marines.

Your argument may not be centered on Sisters, but you're making in a thread about Sisters. Deal with it.

Yes there is a wargear (expensive one) that allows you to automatically pass ONE and only ONE act of faith.

Also what do you mean sisters can get a +2 save? Only the HQ can. Also when you boost their S their I drops to 1, funny how you forget that. Yes their elites may have WS 4 but the basic and a large portion of them have ws 3. Also Veterans Guardsmen and Storm Troopers are BS 4.

On top of that you also have a limited amount of faith points. Also Sisters are probably the most neglected army out there. They were not given an battle missions, they did not have any formations for Apoc until Apoc 2 from Forge world came out (recently). They did not get any planet strike stargems (until the white dwarf article). On top of that all their units are metal, I mean even Dark Eldar has some plastic troop choices. Dark Eldar has gotten more love then sisters. That's saying something.

Maybe they are being neglected in these publications because 5th Ed is going with the Forces of the Imperium section that is in the BRB.

That after giving one big hint GW isn't going to give away the whole book by posting rules for a new army in these other books.

Or maybe they're neglected because GW has its collective nose so far up Marneus Calgar's arse that they can smell his breath.

Melissia wrote:

focusedfire wrote:The point I'm making

The point you're FAILING to make, you mean. An army having 3+ saves in it does not make MEQ. Or else pretty much every army but Guard and Dark Eldar is MEQ, making the definition worthless. If you define "MEQ" as merely having a 3+ save, then quite frankly I have no reason to consider your argument seriously in the first place.

MEQ is more than just the armor save. Battle Sisters have more in common with Guardsmen than they do with Marines.

Your argument may not be centered on Sisters, but you're making in a thread about Sisters. Deal with it.

You failed to recognize that it is not Just Guard and Dark Eldar but also Orks, Tyranids, and Eldar also. Note I left out Tau. That is because, while the Fire Warriors are not MEQ, The Battlesuits are considered to be roughly Marine Equivolent.
The Tau are the opposite number of the SoB in that they are a middle army. Both are armies designed to fall in the middle of a circle that is comprised of SM, IG, and Eldar. Both Armies have force multiplying mechanisms that work in unique ways. But if Tau can be calle MEQ due to the Battlesuits then the Sisters with an entire army of 3+ saves and the ability to boost their physical stats should be too.

The comment about sharing more with Guardsmen than Space Marines while amusing does nothing but discredit you and what you say.

Know that your irrational hostility and innability to remember which armies are not MEQ gives me doubts as to the balance of any rules you might write for a fan-dex

Just teasing with the last line.

Edit spelling

Err, what? No, I'm fairly certain that several Eldar and Tyranid units have models with 3+ saves. Actually, Striking Scorpions have more in common with Marines than any Sisters model does. Give them T4 and they could be mistaken for an Assault Marine without jump packs. And Orks have a terminator rip-off, and are far, far closer to Marines in statline than Sisters ever were.

If you want to argue that Tau are the middle of the road, then that means Tau are similar to Sisters. In fact, Tau and Sisters actually are quite similar in design... with the exception of non-Sisters units, the Sisters tend to have mediocre assault elements. Just like the Tau. And the main anti-tank for both is a single heavy support unit. And both typically rely heavily on shooting, too. Naturally, they diverge rather differently in how they accomplish their goals, but then, they are separate armies. But even with these dramatic differences, there's still more similarities between Tau and Sisters than there are between Sisters and Marines.

And the fact that Sisters are closer to GEQ than MEQ is PRECISELY what proves that you're wrong. If the Sisters have more in common with GEQ than MEQ, then calling them MEQ is stupid.



Congratulations, kiddo, your post is wrong in almost every conceivable fashion

@Melissa-First of all, Don't call somebody who could be your dad, kiddo.

Second, Amusing how you attempted to co-opt my point about the similarity between the SoB and the Tau as your own,

Third, Even funnier is how a large portion of my post talking about the similarities between the two armies and after echoing what I said you then say that my post was wrong. If my post is wrong and you copied what I said then you would be wrong and the last line in your post would then mean I was right at which point the last line in your post would mean I was wrong but then that would mean that the last line in your post would mean that I was right,ect,ect,ect

Fourth, Do Sisters have:
A)Base leadership 7
B)Base armor Save 5+
C)Only one squad that has initiative 4
D)Extremely limited access to power weapons
E)Starting BS3
F)average WS 3

The answer is no. Sisters only share 2 qualities with Guard and one of those is able to be easily bumped to the SM level. So your statement of them being a "Butch" Guard is ludicous.

I don't see much point in continuing in this conversation if your not going to be rational or deal in reality.

Melissia wrote:As opposed to making them too much like Stormtroopers?

If you're going to advocate a different weapon because they're too similar to one faction, at least advocate s weapon that wouldn't make them too similar to another one.

You missed the point, somewhat.

People look at sisters and see female marines because they're in power armour and carry bolters. Giving them hellguns instead gives them a readily apparent difference from marines, while the better armour keeps them distinct from Stormtroopers.

Besides, bolters never were holy weapons of the Space Marines.

Bolters have been the holy weapon of the Space Marine since at least 2nd edition. That's not to say that nobody else uses them... just that Marines think they're something special.

But they're also (supposedly) expensive, tricky to maintain, and comparitively rare. Which means that while they make some sense as a weapon for Marines due to the reverence held for them, they're perhaps not so much of a sensible option for anyone else.

Aren't Sisters of Battle the military arm of the Ecclesiarchy? I assumed they worked for the Ordo Hereticus under some kind of treatise?

The Sisters of Battle hve been the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy-- the richest organization in the Imperium-- since second edition. The Convocation of Nephilim is an agreement between the Sisters and Ordo Hereticus to assist eachother when asked.

focusedfire wrote:A)Base leadership 7
B)Base armor Save 5+
C)Only one squad that has initiative 4
D)Extremely limited access to power weapons
E)Starting BS3
F)average WS 3

Not including HQ units, which are typically better by default...

1: Base leadership 8. Guard also have an effective base Ld8 because all of their sergeants have Ld8 (and you use the highest Ld value)
--- As a side note, Sisters can have Ld9 using the same reasoning, but they have to purchase it with points. Most lists do, of course, but they still pay for it. This is, of course, quite justified in the fluff-- Sisters are far more motivated than most Guard regiments.

2: Base save 3+ in most units (which doesn't by itself make MEQ)
--- Of the non-Sororitas units, Priests actually have no save whatsoever; they have to purchase their armor. Repentia have a 4+, Arco-Flagellants have a 4++.

3: Base initiative 3. Only two squads have initiative 4, both of whom are elite close combat veterans.
-- Arco-Flagellants have I4, but then they're also only a few points shy of Terminator level cost (five points less per model to be exact). They're also not Sororitas units, but Ecclesiarchal ones.

4: What? Guard have lots of power weapons. Actually Guard have access to power fists, where Sisters don't. Guard can have more power weapons in its lists, BY FAR, than Sisters can.
--- Sisters pay the same for power weapons as Guard does, while having roughly the same effect except on Celestians and Seraphim. Eviscerators are very expensive fo rhwat you get.

5: Starting BS4. Same as veterans.

6: Base WS3. Two Sororitas squads have WS4.
--- Repentia, Penitent Engines, Arco-flagellants are WS4 as well, of the Ecclesiarchal units.

Compare this to MEQ, from C:SM:

1: Strength 4
--- No Sisters units have it.
2: Weapon Skill 4
--- Most Sisters units don't have it.
3: Toughness 4
--- No Sisters units have it.
4: Initiative 4
--- Most Sisters units don't have it.
5: 3+ saves
--- Most Sisters do have it.

Calling Sisters MEQ is a ridiculous, biased, and unrealistic simplification and I am disappointed to see otherwise intelligent posters indulging in it.

@Henner: The Sisters are a religious order within the Ecclesiarchy, similar to how the Dominicans are an order within the Catholic Church. Because of the literal wording of the Decree Passive, only women religious have been allowed to remain under arms since the Age of Apostasy. So the Sisters are not the Ecclesiarchy's army in the sense that the Guard is the Administratum's army. Rather, the Sisters are the only group within the Ecclesiarchy that can legally organize militarily.

Except only ground based military, which sounds kind of dumb at first, but they probably had it that way because of how Thor was spitting up their military power so as to not allow another event similar to the Age of Apostasy to happen.

Right, there are non-militant Sisters orders out there. The Orders of the Sisters Hospitalier are the most famous, and generally loved by the Imperial population for their focus on healing and medicine.

Actually, we don't know what the Sisters have outside of ground combat. For all we know, Soulstorm could have been right and they do have fighters. And they definitely have a means of going from planet to planet, and from orbit to ground, or they wouldn't be able to propogate the Wars of Faith.

Then there's Famulous (diplomats and such) and Dialogous (scholars and such).

In Faith & Fire, Swallow has them hitching rides on the Navy's ships just like the Guard. Personally, I doubt that there are any fighter-piloting Sisters--by which I mean I disagree that there should be any. I think they make the most sense as a sort of mechanized heavy infantry. Transports that could carry more than ten girls are what they really need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One way to expand the Sisters line would be to include some of the non-Militant Sisters a la IG's Astropath, Artillery Officer, and Naval Officer. I don't mean to suggest that Sisters should move away from IC to Command Squad HQs but just that these groups could be put to better use than as members of an Inquisitor's retinue.

Yeh then use those to represent the stuff that the Decree Passive stops them from doing. Deep Striking and Orbital Bombardments come to mind.


I'd like to see them get something like the Storm Raven, decorated up SoB style to have lots of ornatestuff, but in a good way. Maybe carry two squads of 10 in it, or just 15 as they won't have the Dreadnought for it anyway.

Good to see that hitching a ride from the Imperial Navy is alright, means I don't have to add in some random Inquisitor to the background story for my army when I get around to it

Manchu wrote:In Faith & Fire, Swallow has them hitching rides on the Navy's ships just like the Guard. Personally, I doubt that there are any fighter-piloting Sisters--by which I mean I disagree that there should be any. I think they make the most sense as a sort of mechanized heavy infantry. Transports that could carry more than ten girls are what they really need.

My own ideas were to give them a dropship similar to the Arvus Lighter or Aquila Lander, only more heavily armored and it counts as a skimmer once it successfully deep strikes.

Melissia wrote:
1: Base leadership 8. Guard also have an effective base Ld8 because all of their sergeants have Ld8 (and you use the highest Ld value)
--- As a side note, Sisters can have Ld9 using the same reasoning, but they have to purchase it with points. Most lists do, of course, but they still pay for it. This is, of course, quite justified in the fluff-- Sisters are far more motivated than most Guard regiments.

You contradict yourself and then attempt to "rationalize" it into how you see it rather than the truth yyou have just written.
Sister have superior leadership to Guard, you said it yourself

Melissia wrote:2: Base save 3+ in most units (which doesn't by itself make MEQ)
--- Of the non-Sororitas units, Priests actually have no save whatsoever; they have to purchase their armor. Repentia have a 4+, Arco-Flagellants have a 4++.

Yes, but we are not arguing if the Inquisition and its forces are closer to being IG, but rather if the Sisrets in a standalone codex would be.

As it stands there is only one out nine Sisters units that doesn't have Armour save 3+. The SM's have a single unit without Save 3+.

Melissia wrote:3: Base initiative 3. Only two squads have initiative 4, both of whom are elite close combat veterans.
-- Arco-Flagellants have I4, but then they're also only a few points shy of Terminator level cost (five points less per model to be exact). They're also not Sororitas units, but Ecclesiarchal ones.

Good to see that you recognize that they are not Sisters. Maybe we can leave them out of the discussion from this point.

As to Initiative 4, only three enties that do not have I 4 in an all Sisters list of 9 entries they are the Repentias, Battle Sisters, and the Sister Superior. Remember, we are discussing a Sisters only book so stop bringing up units that you excluded in the first place.

Melissia wrote:4: What? Guard have lots of power weapons. Actually Guard have access to power fists, where Sisters don't. Guard can have more power weapons in its lists, BY FAR, than Sisters can.
--- Sisters pay the same for power weapons as Guard does, while having roughly the same effect except on Celestians and Seraphim. Eviscerators are very expensive fo rhwat you get.

True about the power Fists. Yet, the Sisters do have the ability to take eviscerators and can power up their own strength so the eviscerators are much better than a powerfist. Then add that they can give an entire unit a form of rending and the Sisters are nothing like Guard in HtH.

Melissia wrote:5: Starting BS4. Same as veterans.

Entire army of Sisters with BS 4 versus one Guard unit, a couple of command units and one Storm Trooper unit. BTW, what is the BS of the Sister Vehicles and who uses mostly the same vehicles chasis's?

Melissia wrote:6: Base WS3. Two Sororitas squads have WS4.
--- Repentia, Penitent Engines, Arco-flagellants are WS4 as well, of the Ecclesiarchal units.

Ah, your wrong here. Only two Sister units don't have WS 4. The Battle Sisters and the Sister Superior, All other sisters units have WS 4.

Melissia wrote:Compare this to MEQ, from C:SM:

1: Strength 4
--- No Sisters units have it.

But all sister can have S 5 when need.

Melissia wrote:2: Weapon Skill 4
--- Most Sisters units don't have it.

False, as proved above

Melissia wrote:3: Toughness 4
--- No Sisters units have it.

True, the Only stat that distinguishes sisters from SM's

Melissia wrote:4: Initiative 4
--- Most Sisters units don't have it.

False, Again Proved above

Melissia wrote:5: 3+ saves
--- Most Sisters do have it.

False, For a third time, as proved above.


Congratulations, you have done a great job of showcasing how little the Sisters have in common with the IG and How much they are like SM's.

As a matter of fact, When you look at Holy rage and their anti Psyker abilities, the Sisters are very much a Female version of the Black Templars.

1: Being able to purchase a leadership upgrade is not the same as having something base. Thank you, you fail.
2: I didn't mention the Inquisition or its units; congratulations, you fail.
3a: No, we can't. Ecclesiarchal forces are as necessary to the Sororitas as spank is to Marines.
3b: Repentia, Battle Sisters (and their Sister Superiors), Dominians (and their Sister Superiors), and Retributors (and their Sister Superiors). You fail hard.
4: No matter how hard you scream otherwise, Acts of Faith do not make Sisters more like Marines. Marines don't have Acts of Faith, and none of the stats resulting in using an Act of Faith are associated with Marines. Another failure argument, you're 0-4 now.
5: And? Having BS4 just makes Sisters elite human units. Congratulations, your argument stil fails.
6: Battle Sisters (and their Sister Superiors), Dominians (and their Sister Superiors), and Retributors (and their Sister Superiors). Once again, you prove that you know jack all about the Sisters. Onto your next failure.
7: S5 I1. Marines don't have to lose their initiative to attack at higher than human strength. You still fail.
8: You failed to prove anything, but then I suppose you're used to failure.
9: Only to the ignorant and slowed. Which are you?
10: You failed to prove anything, but then I suppose you're used to failure.
11: You failed to prove anything, but then I suppose you're used to failure, considering you're 0 and 11 now.


Way to FAIL, kid. Don't argue about a faction you know jack gak about. You don't see me arguing about Necrons and Tyranids, I don't know how to play those armies, and I don't even know half the units in them anyway. And you don't know anything about Sisters, as proven by your ignorance of the existance of fully HALF of the infantry units in the codex. If you don't even have the damn codex in front of you to look up statlines and units, then just drop it and stop wasting everyone's time.

Expect sisters are shooting army while Black Templar are a close combat army. Big difference in playing style. Sisters use acts of faith which they need to test and run out of while Black Templar take a vow which stays in effect as long as you have the Emperor Champion. Sisters also gain additional faith points as other sisters die which makes them unique has no other army has a similar concept. Also a Guard army can be made out of veterans. Also Domions and retributors only have ws 3, please do your research you seem to be getting lots of your facts wrong. Also for Strenght 5 remeber you go down to Initiative 1 and your better off using that faith point else where. Also most sisters squads have ws 3 (Battle sister, Dominion, retributor squads) vs (Celestian and Seraphims (Repentias do not count since they techincally aren't sisters nor can they use acts of faith and are in no way MEQ). When it comes to close combat marines will do far better then sisters. Also in shooting it much easier to wound a sister then it is a marine. Also stop focusing on the sisters "elite" units and look at the basic battle sister instead when making comparisons.

@ Melissa-

An overly emotional reply full of falsehoods and innaccuracies=Epic Fail

But please, go on. You might convince your self of the complete and utter Gak you are spewing in order to indulge in your Matyrdom.


PS-What did I say about talking to your daddy like that.


@All posters- My apologies for the slightly off topic de-rail, but it is important to first determine what niche the Sisters as a stand alone army would fill.

I like their backstory but if made into an army while remaining unchanged their Holy Crusade would be to close to the Black Templar's design and purpose. It woud be two codices for the same thing.

I am not sure of what their backstory could be changed to to make them unique enough to warrant a seperate codex. I am sure that those changes would not be liked by those whom are currently playing Sisters.

Think about it, Are you comfortable with the Sisters entire Back story and mission being changed.

Now if they changed the Black Templars into being the Ordos Xenos, Then there would be a spot available for the Sisters in their current role.

Please to remember that this is all IMO so feel free to ignore what I've posted if it bothers you or you don't agree.



@Necrosis- The Templars are not locked into being only HtH. Their ability to put PoMS on all of their vehicels can make for very shooty builds

focusedfire wrote:An overly emotional reply full of falsehoods and innaccuracies

Don't be so hard on yourself.

Also? Your opinion is worth nothing to me, so I couldn't care less about your "IMO" rant. The Sisters existed before the Black Templars became what they are today.


As the saying goes, opinions are like donkey-caves, but yours smell worse than mine seeing as you don't know jack about the factions involved.

FocusedFire did that last post accomplish anything? It was just a big fat "Your Wrong" post. Also see my above post why sisters are not like Black Templar.

@Melissa- Your ignorance is astounding. The Templars while witten currently as a second founding chapter were one of the firs SM armies made by GW.

But again, feel free to show what little you know


Posted this above as an edit but will post again as my counter point to the BT are HtH only argument
@Necrosis- The Templars are not locked into being only HtH. Their ability to put PoMS on all of their vehicels can make for very shooty builds.

Edit to add last two lines

BlackTemplars do excel in close combat and that's what they are meant for. Yes you can make a shooty list but they are meant for close combat. You also ignored all my other points and you seem to keep ignoring them time and time again.

Necrosis wrote:BlackTemplars do excel in close combat and that's what they are meant for. Yes you can make a shooty list but they are meant for close combat. You also ignored all my other points and you seem to keep ignoring them time and time again.

You are correct about the dominions. I forgot about them as they are not listed on the Sisters quick reference sheet. They still don't tip the balance towards Guard.

The point is that both armies can be geared for bth HtH and ranged combat to a level that makes them redundant as holy crusader armies.

focusedfire wrote:

Necrosis wrote:BlackTemplars do excel in close combat and that's what they are meant for. Yes you can make a shooty list but they are meant for close combat. You also ignored all my other points and you seem to keep ignoring them time and time again.

You are correct about the dominions. I forgot about them as they are not listed on the Sisters quick reference sheet. They still don't tip the balance towards Guard.

The point is that both armies can be geared for bth HtH and ranged combat to a level that makes them redundant as holy crusader armies.

Your saying sisters can do well in close to close combat. Please just stop there. Sisters suck in close combat. S3, T3, I3 and WS 3 is bad for close combat. Just stop.

Celestians are Sisters with I 4, The army may give engaged unit a 2 point bump to become initiative 5-6.

I have a friend who plays sisters masterfully and have watched his Celestian Squad rip an SM command squad a new one in HtH.

focusedfire wrote:Celestians are Sisters with I 4, The army may give engaged unit a 2 point bump to become initiative 5-6.

I have a friend who plays sisters masterfully and have watched his Celestian Squad rip an SM command squad a new one in HtH.

Were talking about basic Battle Sisters not the elite Celestians. Yes Celestians can rip apart a space marine command squad if you give them right upgrades and burn faith on them and I bet their was a Canoness in the Squad to. Also if you boost their I it means they are S3, which means you wound a marine on a 5+.

focusedfire wrote:@All posters- My apologies for the slightly off topic de-rail, but it is important to first determine what niche the Sisters as a stand alone army would fill.

It's a good de-rail, I think. As to what purpose Sisters serve: As I've said twice now, I think crunch-wise they should be the top dogs for a somewhat mobile mid-range gunline. Fluff-wise, they are traitor killers. Going back to RT, they were Marine hunters.

@Necosis-I am not saying that the Sisters and BT's are Identical, Just that there mission and abilities mirror each others enough to the point that as long as one has a codex it precludes any real reason for the other to have an independent book of their own.

Now, if you changed one of these armies fluff substantially then it might be feasible if it weren't for the release schedule already being over crowded. And because I like both armies base concept and would find abandoning these concepts a shame.

Personally, I'd rather GW combined some codices to where all armies are receiving fair treatment until they can expand to properly handle their workload.

If combining with the Inquisition is abhorent, then how about creating a fluff reason for the Sisters and Templars to be combined into a Crusaders Codex.

Before you go off, let me explain the fluff of how this would come to be.

The Sisters have a very interesting orders that are being neglected by GW. Mainly the Hospitalars.

The BT have no homeworld while the Sisters have an extensive string of Convents and Hostels.

The Sisters fluff ingores how they move their forces about while the Templars are always moving.

Both armies are charged with prosecuting a crusade against the enemies of the Emperor.


Taking these established traits of both armies, it is not a far stretch to see a pooling of their limited resources.

The Sisters would remain as they are(Excluding all Inq units) and would add Hospitalar units. They would keep the Adeptus Soritus for the protection of these Holy refuges.

While the Templars protect the Pilgrims that travel between these Hostels and use the Fortress Convents as staging/resupply areas. Both are able to act independently in their tasked duties but are able to call upon the other for support and aid.

Sisters are a mid point between GEQ and MEQ, and tend to focus on shorter ranged shooting as opposed to assault (like Marines) or long-ranged shooting (like Guard). They also have unique gameplay mechanics in Acts of Faith, which no matter how hard one screams, is still unique to the Sisters and not comparable to anything Marines have.


By the way, the Orders of the Sisters Hospitalier, Famulous, and Dialogous are expanded upon in Dark Heresy.

@Melissa: I'm still on the fence about how to treat Dark Heresy material. I think it's pretty well-established that BL fluff can flip at any moment. I can't imagine that FFG will garner more respect than BL.

(It is the finest tabletop RPG on the market currently, IMO.)

@FocusedFire: Combining BT and Sisters is not a good idea as they are not really so much alike fluff0wise and they are certainly totally different when it comes to play style. TBH it just sounds like your real goal is shrinking the number of Imperium books out there. If anything, you ought to save your vitriol for all of the SM books. I'd think that GK would be what really pissed you off.

focusedfire wrote:Melissa-I refer you to the above post, Yes, they are MEQ.

And their are a lot of SM codices and retcanned history where the bolters are a weapon specifically designed and reserved for the SM's.

Doesn't one of the Sisters books mention something about power armour and boltguns being normally reserved for SM's but while the sisters armour is purposely designed for the sisters they were a special exception.

As to the IG, Bolters and Bolt Pistols are a status symbol and rare.

I was always under the impression that the Space Marines considered the Bolters to be holy weapons, and the expensive and time-consuming means of production limited the Bolters so that they're widest use was in Space Marine hands. And that Sisters' power armor just got rid of the means by which it would interface with the Black Carapace and other augmentations that the Sisters lack.

Manchu- was working from the point that these two armies compliment each other nicely. Much of the fluff that would create issues between them is Inquisition based. If your wanting to shift them to be Echlesiarcy many of the incompatibilities fall away.

As for the GK's, I have no hatred for them as they are the only SM's that live up to the fluff of Knights in Space in their look and abilities.

I have no real hatred for the various chapters. I just dislike the Pro Football Player in Space look and don't feel that they are truly distinctive enough to merit so many codices.
Would love to see SW's, BA's, and DA's combined into a "monsters"codex of werewolves, vampires, and Frankensteins castle. This would free up room for the LatD and other such armies that would give a real rival army for the Inq to go after.

I think that my primary issue is that there is currently to many cowboys and not enough indians. Do you follow?

Yes, but they're Black Templars; IE, Marines. Therefor I don't care for them, and they can go screw themselves and stay the hell away from my Sisters codex.

Manchu wrote:@Melissa: I'm still on the fence about how to treat Dark Heresy material.

I treat it with more respect than Black Library. It's far more consistent.

On bolters and power armor: Marines can believe whatever they want, it's irrelevant. Civilian model bolters aren't actually all that rare, as I said before. They're expensive, but pretty much anyone in a position of authority can probably have and afford one if they want. Even underhive gang leaders fi they're successful enough. Also, there are civilian model power armors available-- again, very expensive to use and maintain (And nowhere near the battery life of a military grade model), but they exist. Notably, the Power Armor is much, much rarer and more expensive than bolters, for obvious reasons...

Dark Angels aren't Frankensteins, you heathen!

I can't really think of a good analogue for them in literature, other than maybe the Fallen Angels of the Bible:
Obsessed with righting a wrong that they themselves caused.


As for the role that Sisters should play?
Simple:
Mobile, short ranged combat with lots of flame based weaponry. None of this "mid range" crap.
Why?
Because honestly, midrange strikes me as more the realm of the Astartes Tactical Squads/Guard Stormtroopers.
Both are (background wise at least) supposed to be the go-to forces who're intended to be dropped(literally in the case of the Tactical Squads courtesy of Drop Pods) behind enemy lines, shred the foe apart while causing as much possible terror and chaos as they can before regrouping or heading onto other objectives.

Melissia wrote:Yes, but they're Black Templars; IE, Marines. Therefor I don't care for them, and they can go screw themselves and stay the hell away from my Sisters codex.

If you feel that way then why did you copy so much of the BT's unique stuff for your Fan-dex. Your novitates are a direct pilfer from the BT's as is the re-rollable hits on three's in close combat.

Your Fan-dex illustrates the point I was making. That when expanded into their own seperate army the Sisters inevitably become MEQ. People can't resist in their fan-dex's and GW won't be able ro resist if it means selling more high profit margin units with just a different emblem.

Yeah, I gave your Fan-dex a quick read. Its....interesting. An army that gets to out Inquisition the Inquisition, Out HtH any SM chapter, Fields as many models as hoarde IG(If you go with the citezen mob units) all in the same build.

focusedfire wrote:If you feel that way then why did you copy so much of the BT's unique stuff for your Fan-dex.

I didn't. I have never looked at C:BT (therefor I couldn't have copied from it), and your conclusions about the units are stupid.

1: Novitiates are what Sororitas graduates from the Schola Progenium are called. It's canon fluff, and furthermore, "novitiate" is a real word. Generally speaking, Novitiate means "someone who has entered a religious order but has not taken final vows", IE, a novice initiate of the faith. Your conclusion that they were ripped from C:BT is thus false.

2: Always hitting on a 3+ in close combat is the way that Celestians have been for the majority of the time they've existed. For a short while, it was instead changed to Preferred Enemy: Everyone, but then GW changed it back for some reason. Your conclusion that this was ripped from C:BT is thus false.

3: Re-rolling to hit is not unique to Black Templars, and your attempts to suggest such are laughable at best. But then, the fact that you mention this only further prove to underline the fact that you didn't really read, and barely even glanced over the thread-- the only time to-hit re-rolls are even mentioned are in proposed rules that are actually looking to be scrapped (IE chapter nine; "units and rules under discussion", IE incomplete). Your conclusion that this was ripped from C:BT is thus hilariously false.

You may have had a quick glance, but you apparently didn't actually read it. Congratulations, I don't care what you think until you do. If you think the units in my fandex can out-fight SMs in close combat you're deluding yourself (which given this thread is about normal for you), for example.

If you wish to discuss my codex further, go actually read it first. And then post in this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/295692.page

Talking about the specifics of the fandex belongs in that thread, I merely used that as an example of how they might be expanded, and no, they are not MEQ, thank you for being a failure at every argument you've ever made in this thread.

@Focused Fire: I dont think BT are truly Emperor-worshipers although they may be closer than other Chapters. From a very shallow point of view, they seem similar. But read a little deeper and you'll find that they are really not too much alike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Kanluwen: You may want to think that through once more. If anything Marines should be short-range specialists and Sisters should rule mid-field, especially given that they will never have the H2H ability of Marines. But of course Marines will do anything pretty well in the final analysis.

@Melissa-The only source of delusion in this thread is your thinking that you have an accurate or balanced view of your favorite army.

You are right about the various things you've added already existing. It's called BT's

BTW, nice way to prove that you haven't done your research for your fan-dex. Someone who is interested in building a balanced and unique army would study all of the other armies in order to insure that they weren't tresspassing on another armies turf.

By admitting that you've never read the BT codex you have just proved that you are not a person interested in maintaining such balance.

I'll take my quick glance and a resulting build against anything you can come up with.
Your Faith points are through the roof with no balancing mechanism
The balancing Mechanisms have been removed wholesale.
You are proposing a 50 man units for 215 Points
Almost all sisters are I4 and WS 4.
Your Biker Sisters could be kitted to be mini-nob bikers between wargear and acts of faith.

BTW, Proposed and scrapped are two different things. The fact that you haven't out right dismissed the 50 man wound blob is clear enough indication that you are to in love with this army to write a balanced 'dex

I've read your 'Dex and have posted my observations. You will continue in your stubborn mule-like denial, constantly braying "not so" when rational minds give you a relatively polite critique.

Have fun watching the green and purple clouds, Later

@ Manchu
Notice: I specified "Astartes Tactical Squads", along with Guard Stormtroopers.

Marines, overall are hard to pin down with one style of combat. If you were to make me pin it down--they are the "jack of all trades".

They, as a whole, don't "specialize" in any one style of combat--but if you were to force me to say what specifically they excel at, across all the Codex(VERY important to note that specifically here) Chapters it would be the mid ranged firefights from Drop Pods or mobile fireteams mounted in Rhinos or Razorbacks.

The epitome of the Astartes is a power armoured Tactical Marine Squad drop podding into a target and then wading through hails of incoming fire while laying down their own return fire with bolters to reach their objective.

And "hand to hand" doesn't necessarily mean short-range. Flamethrowers and meltaguns are "short-ranged", but they're not hand to hand weapons now are they?

Hey look, focusedfire continues to act like his repeatedly saying something makes it true. Well, ignoring that troll who hasn't even read C:SoB or C:WH and yet somehow thinks he's able to argue about the faction, let's talk about something constructive instead.

Kanluwen wrote:[snip]

IE, their role in the Imperium would be a heavily armored fast attack/response force... They can deploy quickly to almost any location, put out a devastating barrage of firepower, and then leave for the next mission. But this is hard to reflect well in tabletop...

Melissia wrote:Way to FAIL, kid. Don't argue about a faction you know jack gak about. You don't see me arguing about Necrons and Tyranids, I don't know how to play those armies, and I don't even know half the units in them anyway. And you don't know anything about Sisters, as proven by your ignorance of the existance of fully HALF of the infantry units in the codex. If you don't even have the damn codex in front of you to look up statlines and units, then just drop it and stop wasting everyone's time.

Breathe.

You're talking about a fictional army in a science fantasy game of toy soldiers. If you can't talk about that in a civil fashion without getting so worked up, you need to take a step away from the computer for a while.

People will have conflicting opinions to your own. That's how the world works.



For everyone involved: The thread is getting a little silly. Any more personal digs, or snipes about other posters' ignorance, and it will be locked and the person responsible sent for a holiday.

Manchu wrote:@Focused Fire: I dont think BT are truly Emperor-worshipers although they may be closer than other Chapters. From a very shallow point of view, they seem similar. But read a little deeper and you'll find that they are really not too much alike.

What I was proposing was a slight change to the BT's background that gives them more direction and would set them apart from the other chapters in a truly substantial manner. But If you don't see merit in the idea then we are back to dealing with the overcrowded release schedule and the quality rules that are produced in the rush(BA, Descent of Angels & DoM, Spirit Leech just to name a couple)

How would you resolve this issue without cramming another Codex into the line-up?





Edited out of respect for insaniak and all of the mods at Dakka

Melissia wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:[snip]

IE, their role in the Imperium would be a heavily armored fast attack/response force... They can deploy quickly to almost any location, put out a devastating barrage of firepower, and then leave for the next mission. But this is hard to reflect well in tabletop...

Ehhhhh, not really.

They're more like the Adeptus Arbites--supporting Planetary Defense Forces/Interior Guard or Inquisitors who are rooting out cults. They're fantastic for the areas where Cults operate--generally, the built up Hive Cities and their close quarters where their Powered Armour and short range fire discipline/flamethrower based weaponry come into play.

Err, no, I was talking about the role of the Astartes.

The role of Sisters would be more complex...

No, Melissia, the role of Sisters isn't "that complex":

Their role is exactly what I put it. They're intended to be a force raised and put to field when the Ecclesiarchy has an interest that they want to protect.

The Sororitas really seem to have no aims or goals other than the Ecclesiarchy's, barring a few Orders that seemingly "go rogue" and start up shenanigans under the auspices of a weird cult of the Emperor.

However, this is where things get weird:
Witchhunters, aka the Ordos Hereticus, seem to be the one Inquisitorial Ordos that seems to have really close ties(as a whole) with an outside entity(in this case--the Ecclesiarchy). This leads to an Inquisitiorial Ordos and Ecclesiarchy collaborating in ventures where you'd normally never see it.

On the battlefield, the Sisters would perform three key roles, as they are right now (assuming the branches of the Imperium work together as efficiently as possible, IE, the best case scenario):

1: Spearheading a major offensive.
Sisters can do this better than Guardsmen because of their superior training, firepower, and armor. Sisters can do this better than Marines because they can absorb casualties better-- each Astartes lost is a huge loss in firepower and experience, but Sororitas have higher numbers and therefor can absorb losses better.

2: Urban warfare
Sisters do this better than any other faction in 40k. They have the numbers, the short-ranged firepower, and the skill to dominate in an urban environment. As I've learned from playing Cities of Death!

3: Morale boosting
Sisters are stated to do this whenever they appear, bolstering the resolve and faith of Guard and Frateris units that they fight alongside. Each Sister is practically a priestess unto herself, after all.

@ Melissia
1: No. The Guard have Stormtroopers and tanks for spearheading offensives. Astartes won't be "frontlining" a spearhead, but either Drop Podding/Thunderhawking(or hell--in the case of Terminator Squads teleporting) their squads to destroy enemy command/logistics and demoralize the foe while the Guard are actually performing the real breakthroughs and offensives.

I can see Sisters maybe operating as part of that breakthrough, but not much else since there have been instances in the background where the Sisters flatout refuse to aid a Guard offensive because they decide to do their own offensive to recapture a shrine or devotional place.

2: Again, debatable. Are we talking total warfare or purges? If purges--then yeah, they're pretty good at it when the Imperium wants to keep the city and its infrastructure intact.
Otherwise, long drawn-out campaign by Guard armour, Naval bombers/orbital bombardments work far better than having to convince the Ecclesiarchy to intervene.

3: Not really. The mere sight of Astartes Drop Pods makes Guard armies fight harder, much less seeing the Astartes themselves leading the charge or intervening alongside the Guard.

And there's FAR more instances of Marines not cooperating with Guard, or even actively opposing them and working against the goals of the Guard, than the same of the Sisters. More importantly, read what I wrote:

On the battlefield, the Sisters would perform three key roles, as they are right now (assuming the branches of the Imperium work together as efficiently as possible, IE, the best case scenario):

Which nullifies most of your complaints. It's far easier to get the support of the Ecclesiarchy than it is to arrange for timely Marine intervention or assistance. Marines are RARE, to say the least... there's around a million loyalist Astartes in total, less than one Marine per planet in the Imperium. Sisters have no real upper limit, they could have tens if not hundreds of millions using C:WH's vague numbers, allowing them to be far more prevalent than Astartes, and thus more commonly assist the Guard. And that's just Battle Sisters. Sisters Hospitalier work as battlefield medics all the time.

Just to repeat my point from page 2:

The WH Codex includes Ordo Hospitalis and Ordo Dialogus (not Dialogous , as retinue of the inquisitor). An Ecclesiarchy or Sororitas Codex/army list would not be complete without them, esp. as they have nice official models.

BTW I see no problem in using the Sororitas looking female Inquisitor miniature as some kind of Sororitas member. So all those nice retinue models (including crusaders, Sister Hospitalis and Dialogus) can be included in your army. And there is a nice nun assassin in Helldorado.

The machine cult may grudgingly accept the Emperor as the Omnissiah, but the machine cult is still another religion (and much older). Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Moslems may pray to the same God, but you will never see a protestant or Muslim be allowed to lead a catholic monastery or be elected pope. So exchanging Inquisition with AdMech creates more problems than it solves.

In the end everyone would be satisfied with a separate Grey Knight Codex, Ecclesiarchy/Sororitas Codex and a small Inquisition add-on booklet similar to the 2nd edition assassin booklet. Always good to have more options than before.

Where are some instances of Marines not cooperating with the Guard or "actively opposing them"?

The most I can think of is when Marine Commanders assume command of a battlefield when it's clear the Guard Commander in charge is a moron and sending subjects of the Imperium to needless deaths.

Unless you're counting Azrael's hissy fit during the 13th Black Crusade, where he left and withdrew the rest of the Unforgiven after not being given overall command of the Astartes forces involved.

Kroothawk wrote:The WH Codex includes Ordo Hospitalis and Ordo Dialogus (not Dialogous

No, it's Dialogous. And it's Hospitalier. And it's Order, not Ordo. Don't try and correct my spelling if you aren't able to spell it either

The proper way to refer to the divisions of the Sisters are:

The Orders Dialogous of the Adepta Sororitas
The Orders Famulous of the Adepta Sororitas
The Orders Hospitalier of the Adepta Sororitas
The Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas

You might notice "the Orders", IE, it just indicates that it is a group of Orders that fall under roughly the same category. Each Order is different from the next in some fashion, though they all typically fall into one of these categories. Not all Orders do, however.

Okay, then it is GW's epic fail in Latin, not yours

They have done worse, see this German Codex cover:



I will check this spelling, when I am back home.
Until then Ordo Dialogus and Ordo Hospitalis (or plural Ordines Dialogi and Ordines Hospitales) would be the correct Latin version of the name ("ordo" Latin for order).
Among the fighting orders, all wear different colours. BTW 2nd edition Codex gives an estimate of the total number of Sororitas IIRC.

Still, consider to add them to your army list.

Duh, of course they fail. Astartes isn't even a real Latin word, for example (at least IIRC).

Besides, High Gothic is not Latin, so much as it is somewhat represented by Latin.

Melissia wrote:My own ideas were to give them a dropship similar to the Arvus Lighter or Aquila Lander, only more heavily armored and it counts as a skimmer once it successfully deep strikes.

Aesthetics-wise, I think a look like the Aquilla Lander makes more sense. I mean, a lot of the Sister's stuff (Exorcist, for example) is very ornate and focused on making a visual as well as a practical impact. Plus, what better way to convince heretics of the Emperor's wrath than dropships shaped like the Imperial symbol coming out of the skies?

Melissia wrote: And it's Hospitalier.

It's actually Hospitaller...

Kroothawk wrote:Okay, then it is GW's epic fail in Latin, not yours

It's not meant to be correct Latin, as Imperial Gothic isn't Latin. It's meant to be something vaguely like Latin, to convey the ritualistic nature of a language which in 'actual' use is probably as little like Latin as the everyday speech in the fiction is like English. It's just for colour.

^Sort of like the Wiley Coyote and Roadrunner names a the beginning of each cartoon.

@Kanluwen: I dont quite get your point regarding the Sisters' role and motive. Could you explain in greater depth?

Necroman wrote:Aesthetics-wise, I think a look like the Aquilla Lander makes more sense. I mean, a lot of the Sister's stuff (Exorcist, for example) is very ornate and focused on making a visual as well as a practical impact. Plus, what better way to convince heretics of the Emperor's wrath than dropships shaped like the Imperial symbol coming out of the skies?

I agree, but the problem is the Aquila LAnder can only hold six models IIRC. It'd have to be significantly changed to make a proper orbital lander craft fo the Sisters.

Melissia wrote:

Necroman wrote:Aesthetics-wise, I think a look like the Aquilla Lander makes more sense. I mean, a lot of the Sister's stuff (Exorcist, for example) is very ornate and focused on making a visual as well as a practical impact. Plus, what better way to convince heretics of the Emperor's wrath than dropships shaped like the Imperial symbol coming out of the skies?

I agree, but the problem is the Aquila LAnder can only hold six models IIRC. It'd have to be significantly changed to make a proper orbital lander craft fo the Sisters.

I really think the last thing Sisters need is a flying unit. One of the first things they need is a more accommodating APT.

I disagree. I find that I need SOME way for Sisters to get from orbit to the ground, especially if they need to deploy rapidly in a combat zone. Currently that is a HUGE fluff hole for the Sisters-- how they get from planet to planet can be explained easily, but how they manage to deploy into a combat zone from orbit? Not so easily.

Do we really need a unit to explain this? I mean, we don't worry about it with the Guard either. (Sandy Mitchell has them coming down a regiment at a time in some instances--aboard one damn ship!) As cool as the mythical plastic Thunderhawk might sound, I'm not eager to see Imperial Aeronaticus incorporated into 40k.


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Also, rapid deployment may be something Sisters are not good at. My vision for them involves a moderately paced advance throwing out tons and tons of firepower with every step--and, of course, the ability to quickly maneuver that line via mobile "hard points" (a.k.a., infantry supporting APTs). Drop pods or Valkyries--or really any kind of deepstriking--doesn't fit in my imagination. Not that my imagination is definitive of anyone else's perspective, of course. The best I can offer here is Faith & Fire.

Manchu wrote:@Kanluwen: I don't quite get your point regarding the Sisters' role and motive. Could you explain in greater depth?

Putting it simply:
The Sororitas have no goals or aims outside of the Ecclesiarchy's goals. The Sororitas are intended to be the way that the Ecclesiarchy enforce their will and their aims.

It's why the Sisters aren't really a "spearhead" unit or anything you see on the frontline fighting against the Tyranids or the Tau or Eldar.
The Ecclesiarchy has them defending the Shrineworlds or the Ecclesiarchy's VIPs, who are afforded at times an entire Order as bodyguards.

Melissia wrote:

Necroman wrote:Aesthetics-wise, I think a look like the Aquilla Lander makes more sense. I mean, a lot of the Sister's stuff (Exorcist, for example) is very ornate and focused on making a visual as well as a practical impact. Plus, what better way to convince heretics of the Emperor's wrath than dropships shaped like the Imperial symbol coming out of the skies?

I agree, but the problem is the Aquila Lander can only hold six models IIRC. It'd have to be significantly changed to make a proper orbital lander craft for the Sisters.

Seven, actually. One character and a retinue of "up to six".
But digressing, because it's not a combat landing craft but a diplomatic vehicle.

Manchu wrote:I really think the last thing Sisters need is a flying unit. One of the first things they need is a more accommodating APT.

Agreed. Just because Imperial Guard have Valkyries or Blood Angels have Stormravens(which was an asinine addition, period) doesn't mean every single army list needs one flier being castrated to become a skimmer with ridiculous rules.

Melissia wrote:I disagree. I find that I need SOME way for Sisters to get from orbit to the ground, especially if they need to deploy rapidly in a combat zone. Currently that is a HUGE fluff hole for the Sisters-- how they get from planet to planet can be explained easily, but how they manage to deploy into a combat zone from orbit? Not so easily.

Uh, actually it's been stated that they use things very similar to Aquila Landers actually.

But they don't y'know, fly them right to the combat zone like Marines do with Thunderhawks or Stormravens for surgical assaults on specific targets--they gather their strength, and then strike in overwhelming force once they've located a target or been fed the information on where their targets are.

Manchu wrote:Do we really need a unit to explain this? I mean, we don't worry about it with the Guard either. (Sandy Mitchell has them coming down a regiment at a time in some instances--aboard one damn ship!) As cool as the mythical plastic Thunderhawk might sound, I'm not eager to see Imperial Aeronaticus incorporated into 40k.

Well, the unit's actually been named for Guard at least =P The "mass conveyers" are what can haul whole regiments, including Armoured Companies even.
Then there's pinnaces and lighters which can ferry squads or equipment, etc.

But yes, you're right. It's unnecessary and seems to be wanted as a "But someone else has it why can't I!"

Manchu wrote:Also, rapid deployment may be something Sisters are not good at. My vision for them involves a moderately paced advance throwing out tons and tons of firepower with every step--and, of course, the ability to quickly maneuver that line via mobile "hard points" (a.k.a., infantry supporting APTs). Drop pods or Valkyries--or really any kind of deepstriking--doesn't fit in my imagination. Not that my imagination is definitive of anyone else's perspective, of course. The best I can offer here is Faith & Fire.

Fits about with how I've envisioned them, to be honest. At least if "APT" is an acronym for "Armored Personnel Transport". The Repressors, Immolators and the like all point very much towards how they behave in combat:
A slow, methodical advance, scorching the ground before them and leaving nothing but cinders and ash behind.

Half question half answer.

Marines have their own ships and such, which explains the standard thunderhawk and drop pod ness.

Guard on the other hand use countless varieties of landing and insertion craft.

Now the Sisters are Ecclesiarchy so they may all be standardized like the Marines, but I don't recall them having standard ships and such since the apostasy. Is that accurate? If so then this whole gap is really moot. They use whatever Imperial Navy drop ships are available.

As this is a Witch Hunters, and thereby also lumping SoB with the inquisition, another angle would be inquisitorial dedicated ships and their mode of transport. This I do not know myself...

You could also say that they can use rapid deployment not just when it might be tactically prudent to the Sister in charge, but also when their is someone other than a sister at the helm, which is a much more often occurrence than say a non marine commanding marines.

Consider this thread on its final warning.

I have just removed a slew of posts from various people which, while not outright flaming, were wandering off into posting about the poster instead of the topic.

Keep it on topic. Address the topic, not the poster.

Rule Number #1 is be polite.

My post was nothing but polite insaniak, detailing exactly what my POV is in a calm explanatory manner. It was not insulting. It was not rude.

Deleting it was a mistake and I take offence to it. It is over-moderating, something you should not do, yet is something you (and KK and reds8n) continue to do. Actually, no, that's inaccurate. Had KK found this thread before you did, he'd've just locked it instantly.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Rule Number #1 is be polite.

My post was nothing but polite insaniak, detailing exactly what my POV is in a calm explanatory manner. It was not insulting. It was not rude.

Whether or not it was intended that way, it was the sort of comment that can be taken as a personal snipe, it was off-topic, and it added nothing to the thread. So it was removed.

If you have something to contribute to the thread that is actually on topic, feel free. If you have an issue with Dakka's moderation, take it up with Yakface. If you have an issue with another user, put them on your ignore list and move on.

Kanluwen wrote:The Sororitas have no goals or aims outside of the Ecclesiarchy's goals. The Sororitas are intended to be the way that the Ecclesiarchy enforce their will and their aims.

I will have to concede this point with one major caveat, which itself throws something of a bone to the Inquisition fans: Adpeta Sororitas is not merely the de jure Ecclesiarchy army. Rather, it seems to fill that position pretty regularly on a de facto basis because it is the only major religious order allowed to organize under arms. That said, they are not rote servants of the Cardinals (although the Ecclesiarch himself certainly has some sort of jurisdiction over them) so much as they respond to Cardinals as the legitimate religious authority in their shared faith. As soon as the Cardinal oversteps his bounds or shows any signs of heterodoxy, they revert to what their purpose has been (according to C:WH at least) ever since the overthrow of Vandire--i.e., traitor killers. This shade of fluff is what allowed GW to fold them into the Ordo Hereticus book in the first place. I'd say the primary function of Sisters is to discourage heterodoxy and, in the extreme cases, put down heretics like the dogs they are. And, as I already mentioned, this includes Marines. No wonder they agreed to the Convocation of Nephilim!

Kanluwen wrote:The Repressors, Immolators and the like all point very much towards how they behave in combat: A slow, methodical advance, scorching the ground before them and leaving nothing but cinders and ash behind.

This is exactly what I had in mind, put very vividly as a matter of fact. I think James Swallow also imagined it this way when he was writing Faith & Fire.

See Manchu, but therein lies the caveat that really bothers me:
Do the Sororitas actively question the Cardinals?

Because Vraks drove that point home pretty hard, wherein the Sisters assigned to Mamon and the other Ecclesiarchs that led the heresy there did absolutely nothing--and even ended up as prisoners/sacrifices in the later stages of the Vraksian campaign when the Traitor Legions were opening Daemonic gates.

I never did like how that part in Vraks was written. I think Forge World got that part wrong which isn't to hard to believe since their isn't much info on sisters.

Sorry, they write the fluff--not you.

You don't get to fill in the blanks with what you think is best

If were going to go that way then I move that the codex not be combined due to all the Inquisition infighting.

Despite Inquisitorial infighting, it is still "Inquisition".

The methods may differ, but the goals are generally the same(except for those damn renegades).

Hector Rex a Puritan Inquisitor was willing to work with the Dark Angels but not the sisters of battle. He went out of his way to make sure the sisters didn't interfere and then he executed a bunch of them despite other Inquisitors arguing with him. It was up to the point were other Inquisitors were killing his troops.

@Kanluwen: The problem is that Sisters do not have the authority to excommunicate the faithful. So:

Hoare & McNeill wrote:The regiment is under the sway of a Cardinal declared Excommunicate Traitoris, and will be dealt with as severely as its master. (C:WH p.43 under "Witch Hunters would fight Imperial Guard because:")

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Necrosis wrote:Hector Rex a Puritan Inquisitor was willing to work with the Dark Angels but not the sisters of battle. He went out of his way to make sure the sisters didn't interfere and then he executed a bunch of them despite other Inquisitors arguing with him. It was up to the point were other Inquisitors were killing his troops.

What is this from? Context?

Seige of Vraks part 3.

And Rex did that because of the fact that it was a renegade Deacon and Cardinal, who was chosen for the position by some higher ups in the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus. Would you trust anyone sent by the people who fethed up in the first place? Hell no. They're in it to cover their ass, and they'll work just hard enough to avoid drawing attention to themselves--nothing more.

Oh, and that execution of the Sisters you mentioned? Those were Sisters who had been in the process of being prepared to be used as Daemonic vessels and then used to defile the reliquary of a Saint planetside.

They'd have been killed anyways, but the Ordo Hereticus was being a pain in the Ordo Malleus' ass because of the fact that the Ecclesiarchy/Ordo Hereticus' original plan(let the Krieg Siege Division deal with the problem since razing the fortress and reliquary of a recognized Imperial Saint wasn't in the cards) failed miserably and it looked like the Ordo Malleus was going to pull it off.

It's also worth noting that the Dark Angels made it very clear they were there to spite the Ordo Hereticus, which was hollering that if any of the Traitor Legions were taken alive, then they were purview to the Ordo Hereticus' justice not the Dark Angels'.

Piss off the Astartes with political shenanigans at your own risk, them backing an Inquisitorial Lord is enough for the Council of Terra to sit up and take notice it seems.

The Dark Angels were their to take all the Alpha legion marines which annoyed Hector Rex. Their Condition was "Will help you but we get all the Alpha marine prisoners." They were doing that to cover their own asses and yet he still accepted their help instead of the sisters. Hector Rex had a tough time with this decision cause he knew they wouldn't share any information about it. He wanted to capture the Alpha Legion marines so he could learn of their agents in the Imperium and cleanse them but this never happened thanks to the dark angels. Also at that point he could have said no to and their was nothing the dark angels could have really done.

In the end Rex refused to accept any help for the Ordo Hereticus. Besides he's not going to bunch everyone in one group, you see one space marine chapter fall to chaos, you suddenly refuse to use any space marines to fight them? Hell no.

The Dark Angels wanted one prisoner, and one prisoner only.

Arkos the Faithless. Anyone else was open season for the Inquisition.

Well one thing is for sure: FW writes those DA donkey-caves pretty accurately.

And technically, it wasn't the Dark Angels.

It was the Angels of Absolution, acting under Azrael's orders and an agreement that Azrael had made with the acting Siege General before the outset of a massive Ork Waagh! necessitated the Dark Angels' withdrawal from the field after taking and destroying the Vraksian spaceport, preventing Traitor Astartes from intervening too heavily against the Krieg Siege Division, at the beginning of the campaign to retake Vraks.

So refer to it as "The Unforgiven", not "The Dark Angels". For accuracy's sake, mind

They took 15 prisoners including Arkos the Faithless.

Except they only wanted Arkos, and turned the rest over after interrogating them first.

No, page 76, they requested that they take all alpha legion prisoners they were mainly Interested in Arkos but they still demanded all Alpha Legion prisoners.

You state that, but then you also leave out part of Rex's decision process:
"Would Azrael make good use of any information he acquired? Would his Chapter use it purely for their own ends, or for the good of the wider Imperium?"

Same page as your statement about "all Alpha Legion prisoners".

Oh, and pages 87-88. "The six martyrs of Vraks" were the Sisters you were referring to.

Six of them, considered to be too dangerously tained and exposed to too much daemonic activity.
Considering the Ordo Malleus is the only branch "empowered to deal with their corruption", the Ordo Hereticus was raising a stink to raise one over the Unforgiven snatching a prize target like Arkos out from under them and the fact that Rex was chosen to lead the campaign, not the Hereticus Inquisitor that was put forward to originally lead it.

Hector Rex knew that they probably wouldn't tell him, he knew that it would be best if the Ordo Mallues took the prisoners. He knew that the angels would probably use it for their own ends and not share the information to the Inquisition.

Also the parts of the sisters was terrible written, it was all summed in one paragraph in the first siege of Vraks. There here and now their gone and defeated. Also what was up with the Prioress deciding to meet up with the Cardinal. That made no sense. She doesn't need his permission to do anything. It was terrible written and I refuse to see that as fluff.

You refusing to see it as fluff doesn't make it any less fluff.

Hell, the Sisters could've been wearing pink tutus and firing waterguns filled with pina coladas at daemons--and guess what?

It'd have been fluff.

About the only real "excuse" for ignoring background is if the material predates the Eye of Terror campaign. A lot of general background material was discreetly altered since then, and it marked the first(and last) real "timeline" effort by GW then.

Forge World is not techincally GW which techincally makes it not fluff. It was also badly and quickly written. Also GW will probably forget about it and never use it when determining how to do the sisters in the next codex. Also my point on Hector Rex still stands.

Uh no.
Forge World is GW.
Black Library is GW(excluding C.S. Goto, as they're quietly getting rid of all his crap and have already stopped hiring him to do anything. The last thing I can think of is a story he submitted years ago that's being published in an anthology now).

Forge World's background is sure as heck more "valid" than some random stories written by the fans.

Kanluwen wrote:Uh no.
Forge World is GW.
Black Library is GW(excluding C.S. Goto, as they're quietly getting rid of all his crap and have already stopped hiring him to do anything. The last thing I can think of is a story he submitted years ago that's being published in an anthology now).

Forge World's background is sure as heck more "valid" than some random stories written by the fans.

Black Library is not Cannon. If it is then you have to accept C.S. Goto work as cannon to. Forge World is techincally not GW, it is another company which is owned by GW but is not GW. They make GW products but are not GW thus their material is not Cannon or else so is C.S. Goto. Also my other points still stand. The sisters also did fight against the Cardinal but even after that Hector Rex still refused to allow them to fight.

If it's published by GW, FW, or BL it is definitely canonical until one of those same sources prints an explicit and direct contradiction. (I'm not sure about FFG, however.)

Again, no.

Forge World, just like the Black Library and the Codex authors, has to have their background material cleared by Lindsey Priestley, aka the wife of Rick Priestly.

Y'know, the guy who basically created Warhammer 40,000?

Lindsey is the woman who's been in charge of ensuring that any background material has some basis in the general background of 40k since the wankery that was C.S. Goto started in with things like Falcon surfing or Landrazorbackraiders.


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Manchu wrote:If it's published by GW, FW, or BL it is definitely canonical until one of those same sources prints an explicit and direct contradiction. (I'm not sure about FFG, however.)

FFG is considered just as canonical, according to Andy Hoare and Lindsey Priestly.

Also: sorry if you don't like Goto (I sympathize, I really do) but they still let him write. Not liking him--or rather him just not being good--is not enough to knock his stuff out of canon.

Kanluwen wrote:Again, no.

Forge World, just like the Black Library and the Codex authors, has to have their background material cleared by Lindsey Priestley, aka the wife of Rick Priestly.

Y'know, the guy who basically created Warhammer 40,000?

Lindsey is the woman who's been in charge of ensuring that any background material has some basis in the general background of 40k since the wankery that was C.S. Goto started in with things like Falcon surfing or Landrazorbackraiders.


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Manchu wrote:If it's published by GW, FW, or BL it is definitely canonical until one of those same sources prints an explicit and direct contradiction. (I'm not sure about FFG, however.)

FFG is considered just as canonical, according to Andy Hoare and Lindsey Priestly.

I believe you are lying. I wish for you to provide me some proof of this statement that all fluff is read and cleared by them.
Also Rumor has it C.S. Goto is writing the Necron Codex fluff.

Manchu wrote:Also: sorry if you don't like Goto (I sympathize, I really do) but they still let him write. Not liking him--or rather him just not being good--is not enough to knock his stuff out of canon.

No, they don't. Any author currently employed by Black Library has a blurb on the website.

He does not

I didn't know Lindsey Priestly filled that role. What does Alan Merrett do then?

He is still on the website: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Authors/C-S-Goto.html

Necrosis wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Again, no.

Forge World, just like the Black Library and the Codex authors, has to have their background material cleared by Lindsey Priestley, aka the wife of Rick Priestly.

Y'know, the guy who basically created Warhammer 40,000?

Lindsey is the woman who's been in charge of ensuring that any background material has some basis in the general background of 40k since the wankery that was C.S. Goto started in with things like Falcon surfing or Landrazorbackraiders.


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Manchu wrote:If it's published by GW, FW, or BL it is definitely canonical until one of those same sources prints an explicit and direct contradiction. (I'm not sure about FFG, however.)

FFG is considered just as canonical, according to Andy Hoare and Lindsey Priestly.

I believe you are lying. I wish for you to provide me some proof of this statement that all fluff is read and cleared by them.
Also Rumor has it C.S. Goto is writing the Necron Codex fluff.

Rumor has it I'm selling the Brooklyn Bridge down in Tampa Bay. Interested?

Go read any of the Black Library authors' blogs or comments about the "Horus Heresy meetings". Particularly Aaron Dembski-Bowden's.

Lindsey Priestly is the Background Commissar. You feth up any of the background badly, she makes you go back and start from scratch.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:Also: sorry if you don't like Goto (I sympathize, I really do) but they still let him write. Not liking him--or rather him just not being good--is not enough to knock his stuff out of canon.

No, they don't. Any author currently employed by Black Library has a blurb on the website.

He does not

Oops! Usually you're on the ball with this stuff, Kanluwen. Please see "Trial of the Mantis Warriors" by C. S. Goto in Legends of the Space Marines released last month.

Once again provide some evidence. Either that or we must agree to disagree.

Necrosis wrote:He is still on the website: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Authors/C-S-Goto.html

Tip: When they tell you to "visit his website", and don't have him listed under:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Authors

?
Guess what, not employed.


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Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:Also: sorry if you don't like Goto (I sympathize, I really do) but they still let him write. Not liking him--or rather him just not being good--is not enough to knock his stuff out of canon.

No, they don't. Any author currently employed by Black Library has a blurb on the website.

He does not

Oops! Usually you're on the ball with this stuff, Kanluwen. Please see "Trial of the Mantis Warriors" by C. S. Goto in Legends of the Space Marines released last month.

And please reread my statement that is on this very same page:

(excluding C.S. Goto, as they're quietly getting rid of all his crap and have already stopped hiring him to do anything. The last thing I can think of is a story he submitted years ago that's being published in an anthology now).

"Trial of the Mantis Warriors" was done quite awhile ago.

Double post.

You know who else you'll see upon clicking "View All"?

Karl Kopinski.

Hey, what's he written?

Oh...nothing, because he's an artist not an author.
You know who else is listed on there?
Adrian Smith!
What's he written again?

They keep the names of anyone who's written anything "readily accessible" if still selling their works, even if the work was written under license to GW/Black Library.

GW is very careful about avoiding potential lawsuits against themselves over IP.

When did he submit "Trial of the Mantis Warriors"? What are these rumors about the Necron fluff? Where do you people get all of this information?

Ian Watson is also on their list and he's written nothing since Inquisition War (right? any story submissions not published in anthologies yet?) so I don't know if it's really a good indication of employment either way. Trouble is, whether Goto is currently getting checks from BL or not his work is still canonical until someone else undoes it.

Manchu wrote:I didn't know Lindsey Priestly filled that role. What does Alan Merrett do then?

Lindsey is, theoretically, in overall charge of the background.

According to the authors I've spoken with, she's been handing it over more and more to Merrett while focusing on the Horus Heresy's background herself.

With the amount of authors involved with the Heresy series now? It'd be stupid not to have two people(at least) collaborating in that regard.

You still can't prove that he is currently not employed. You failed to provide such evidence.


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Manchu wrote:When did he submit "Trial of the Mantis Warriors"? What are these rumors about the Necron fluff? Where do you people get all of this information?

I said rumor, I never said it was a fact. Take all rumors with a grain of salt.

@Necrosis: I didn't mean to imply that you were talking about a fact (hence why I used the word "rumor") but I would still like to know the source of that rumor--does it mean that he's working on a novel or a dex or what?

And to get somewhat back on track, the Siege of Vraks Trilogy is absolutely canonical. What that means for the Sisters is . . . what exactly?

Manchu wrote:When did he submit "Trial of the Mantis Warriors"? What are these rumors about the Necron fluff? Where do you people get all of this information?

I speak with authors at events Screw talking to the studio, Abnett's far more amusing when you get him in a chatty mood!

And from what I recall, "Trial of the Mantis Warriors" was submitted for publication in 2007-2008ish. Because of the length of it and the lack of other appropriate short stories, it was shelved.

That happens with short stories, wherein they hold them to either publish as event "exclusives" or save them for anthologies as filler.

Anyways, no Black Library author has written background for the codexes(notable exception being Gav Thorpe, who was working in the rules section before trying his hand at writing background pieces and Andy Hoare, who works on rules every so often now--but both possess a large degree of seniority in the GW Studio Staff now). So that flatout debunks that either way.

There is a Necron related book coming out in December, however, so that may be where the confusion is coming from. Written by Steve Lyons though.

Death Korps of Krieg v. Necrons.

Too little sleep=me confusing Steve Parker with Steve Lyons. Blargh. Sorry Steves.

Wasn't the new Deathwatch game also written by C.S. Goto?

Necrosis wrote:You still can't prove that he is currently not employed. You failed to provide such evidence.

And you've not provided any evidence of him being employed, outside of a short story that was slated to be published in a PDF form before it was shelved.

It's a two way street.


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Necrosis wrote:Wasn't the new Deathwatch game also written by C.S. Goto?

Fantasy Flight Games has no open employment records that I can view, but considering there's no C.S. Goto on their official forums blabbering incoherently about surfing on a Falcon--I'm going to say no.

Well then we have to agree to disagree.

Manchu wrote:And to get somewhat back on track, the Siege of Vraks Trilogy is absolutely canonical. What that means for the Sisters is . . . what exactly?

Manchu wrote:And to get somewhat back on track, the Siege of Vraks Trilogy is absolutely canonical. What that means for the Sisters is . . . what exactly?

The sister made a stupid mistake, which cost them their lives. That's all it is.

Oh no, that implies there's no evidence in any of the situations I've pointed out.

The fact that his website is bare of any material relating to his recent short story being published, any interviews, event appearances, and the fact that the Dawn of War II novelization he at one point bragged about getting to do never happened(although there is going to be a follow-up novel, picking up where events left off--NOT written by him though!) seem to be pretty conclusive evidence that he no longer has anything to do with 40k.


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Manchu wrote:

Manchu wrote:And to get somewhat back on track, the Siege of Vraks Trilogy is absolutely canonical. What that means for the Sisters is . . . what exactly?

They got massacred for being stupid.

Simple

Which set an example for other sisters. Thus such a thing will not happen again(or at least very rarely).

It also shows the Ordo Mallues and Ordo Hereticus fight among each other during a war.

The "problem" seems to be part and parcel of their character: as staunchly loyal "nuns" they have an obligation to both serve the legitimately appointed authorities and to root out the faithless--all without having any authority to excommunicate. Similarly, an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor can excommunicate and so can an Ecclesiarchy Cardinal. What happens when they excommunicate one another?

It would result in both their armies fighting each other. Yet if they both send a signal to Terra, then the Inquisitor will probably win.

@ Necrosis:

Hereticus started the infighting by forcing the Ecclesiarchy to try to claim that it was a "War of Faith", thus under the Ecclesiarchy's purview--alongside of forcing early on, the Krieg Regiments that volunteered for the campaign on Vraks, a requirement of X numbers of Guardsmen on the planet being offset by Y numbers being sent to a warzone where the Ecclesiarchy's "War of Faith" was bogged down because of their own stupidity in placing a priesthood in command, rather than allowing the Guard commanders to prosecute a war.

Once the Daemonic threat was confirmed, Hereticus tried to block the intervention of Malleus by claiming that the purview of dealing with a Traitor Archdeacon was the exclusive rights of the Ecclesiarchy, who immediately would have said that the Ordo Hereticus and their poster child would have had to be involved.

It all boils down to:
The Ecclesiarchy fethed up, royally, and tried to make a profit from it by getting a huge contingent of Death Korpsmen for a war they were royally screwing up in another sector, and in doing so they allowed a major Munitorium armsworld to fall to Heresy, and a major Daemonic incursion to happen.

Then, on top of that, the Ordo Hereticus tried to block the Ordo Malleus(who are the Ordo exclusively deemed fit to combat Daemons) from becoming involved with a halfassed argument about the Shrine on the surface being too valuable to lose to cleansing the planet from orbit(as standard procedure would've had it).

Kanluwen wrote:@ Necrosis:

Hereticus started the infighting by forcing the Ecclesiarchy to try to claim that it was a "War of Faith", thus under the Ecclesiarchy's purview--alongside of forcing early on, the Krieg Regiments that volunteered for the campaign on Vraks, a requirement of X numbers of Guardsmen on the planet being offset by Y numbers being sent to a warzone where the Ecclesiarchy's "War of Faith" was bogged down because of their own stupidity in placing a priesthood in command, rather than allowing the Guard commanders to prosecute a war.

Once the Daemonic threat was confirmed, Hereticus tried to block the intervention of Malleus by claiming that the purview of dealing with a Traitor Archdeacon was the exclusive rights of the Ecclesiarchy, who immediately would have said that the Ordo Hereticus and their poster child would have had to be involved.

It all boils down to:
The Ecclesiarchy fethed up, royally, and tried to make a profit from it by getting a huge contingent of Death Korpsmen for a war they were royally screwing up in another sector, and in doing so they allowed a major Munitorium armsworld to fall to Heresy, and a major Daemonic incursion to happen.

Then, on top of that, the Ordo Hereticus tried to block the Ordo Malleus(who are the Ordo exclusively deemed fit to combat Daemons) from becoming involved with a halfassed argument about the Shrine on the surface being too valuable to lose to cleansing the planet from orbit(as standard procedure would've had it).

It was the Cardinal who attempted to say it was a war of faith not the Hereticus. They attempted to kill the Cardinal long before the siege even began. The Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy are two different organizations, they don't get to choose each other members or force each other to do things (unless an Inquisitor tells you do help him do something). The Ordo Hereticus was also trying to kill the traitors which is what they are responsible for. The thing is, in the end this shows that the two factions (daemon hunters and witch hunters) do not get along.

You've got the timeline mixed up.

After the Cardinal sent away the people there to collect taxes, the Ordo Hereticus sent in the Vindicare assassin.
One of the people who even took a bullet for the Cardinal was a member of the Cardinal's Order of the Argent Shroud contingent.

The Ecclesiarchy was already involved in a "War of Faith". Which is where the part about the Korps assigned by the Munitorium being split up or the Ecclesiarchy would work to block the deployment and feth up the campaign comes into play. The Ordo Hereticus, which maintains very close ties with the Ecclesiarchy due to the sharing of the Adeptas Sororitas and the general zealous nature of the Witchhunters(almost like they got the name for a reason...), pushed for the Ecclesiarchy to maintain control and purge everything to be replaced with a population transplanted from elsewhere.

The Ordo Hereticus does not control the Ecclesiarchy, they do use sisters but they do not control the Ecclesiarchy. Also where does it say one of the memeber who took the bullet was a member of the Argent Shroud. Yet my main point is that they two faction (daemon hunters and witch hunter) do fight among themselves and do get along well.

The Ordo Hereticus does not have to "control" the Ecclesiarchy--but each has their hands in the others inner workings. It's, again, a case of where the two overlap to the point of being one entity when they should be completely separate. It's as if the Catholic Church were dictating the policy of US armed forces operating in the Middle East, because a few members of the higher-ups in the armed forces are Catholic.

I'm not sure how this is that difficult to comprehend.

I think that if the Sisters were to be in the position of either siding with a Cardinal excommunicating an Inquisitor or an Inquisitor excommunicating a Cardinal, they would--all other things being equal--fall into line with the Inquisitor and go after the Cardinal. This should point out that Adpeta Sororitas is not merely the running dog of the Ecclesiarchy. Although their interests may coincide with the local Ministorum's most of the time, they aren't just a sword wielded by the sector's Cardinal. Nor are they just a sword wielded by Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors (well, no more so than a Guard regiment, a Space Marine Chapter, or whoever else an Inquisitor calls upon). Moreover, if an Inquisitor was decreed excommunicate traitoris by his/her sector Conclave (just using the DH organization here for simplicity's sake), the Sisters would be obliged to turn their fury upon him/her.

Unlike Adeptus Astartes chapters, Adepta Soroitas does not have the luxury of picking its own enemies. And unlike IG regiments, the potential enemies of Adepta Sororitas are not always obvious. That's a pretty unique situation that I think effectively kills previous arguments about Sisters having no reason to deploy against anything besides a traitor Guard army (and therefore there ought to be LotD book before a Sisters book).

The thing is that it was the Cardinal who declared the war of faith. It was the Ordo Hereticus who tried to kill him and stood in his way during his rise to power. They made that very clear in the siege of vrak book.

Well, that's not entirely true Manchu.

Imperial Guard regiments have been led astray by corrupted priesthood and officers, then deployed against loyalist forces without ever knowing that they're not really doing The Emperor's work.

It all depends on how the Guard regiment's society worked. Was the officer corps nobility who were to be unquestioned? Things like that factor in when a Guard regiment goes traitor.

Kanluwen wrote:It's as if the Catholic Church were dictating the policy of US armed forces operating in the Middle East, because a few members of the higher-ups in the armed forces are Catholic.

I think that's a pretty poor example. In what sense does the US have it's hands in the Church here? What this metaphor actually illustrates is a more accurate concept of the relationship between the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus. Namely, Ordo Hereticus may have great albeit indirect influence over the Ministorum but the clergy right up to the Ecclesiarch himself has no direct and probably very little to no indirect influence over Ordo Hereticus.

Necrosis wrote:The thing is that it was the Cardinal who declared the war of faith. It was the Ordo Hereticus who tried to kill him and stood in his way during his rise to power. They made that very clear in the siege of vrak book.

Again:
Previously ongoing War of Faith.

Had nothing to do with Vraks or the Cardinal.

It was part of the requirement for the Ecclesiarchy to vote in favor of deploying the Krieg regiments to Vraks.
Once it came down to the Hereticus prospect or Rex, the Ecclesiarchy pulled their support from the Hereticus Inquisitor because Rex played the politics and gave over a tithe of the Krieg regiments that were being earmarked for the campaign on Vraks--to the Ecclesiarchy in another warzone, wherein the Ecclesiarchy was already active in a War of Faith.

That had nothing to do with the Cardinal, Vraks, Rex, or anything of that nature. We never really find out what it's about, other than it's going on.




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Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It's as if the Catholic Church were dictating the policy of US armed forces operating in the Middle East, because a few members of the higher-ups in the armed forces are Catholic.

I think that's a pretty poor example. In what sense does the US have it's hands in the Church here? What this metaphor actually illustrates is a more accurate concept of the relationship between the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus. Namely, Ordo Hereticus may have great albeit indirect influence over the Ministorum but the clergy right up to the Ecclesiarch himself has no direct and probably very little to no indirect influence over Ordo Hereticus.

That was the point, it was a theoretical example. Not meant to be a serious real world example.

Can you give me a page reference Kanluwen, I think we might be mis-communicating.

It's smattered throughout all three IAs, not going to be bothered to dig 100% through all right now.

Kanluwen, I'm guessing you're referring to my comment that the IG's enemies are obvious. I meant that in the sense that, unlike the Sisters, the Guardsmen themselves have no religious commitment to combating the theological error of their enemies. The Guard fights enemy soldiers while the Sisters fight enemy ideas.

Well, again, that's not entirely true. Some Guard regiments second themselves to the Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy exclusively, despite the Conclave of Nephilim's pronouncement. There are also shrineworlds that raise Guard regiments for nothing but crusades in the name of those Saints they're devoted to.

Kanluwen wrote:That was the point, it was a theoretical example. Not meant to be a serious real world example.

Obviously it was not a real world example. I wasn't criticizing it as unrealistic. My criticism is that it doesn't show that the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus are inter-penetrative but rather only that Ordo Hereticus influences the Ecclesiarchy.


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Kanluwen wrote:Some Guard regiments second themselves to the Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy exclusively, despite the Conclave of Nephilim's pronouncement. There are also shrineworlds that raise Guard regiments for nothing but crusades in the name of those Saints they're devoted to.

In either situation, the regiment would still fall under the jurisdiction of the Administratum. The Inquisition never maintains its own armies. In the second situation, don't forget that any such crusade would not take precedence over Administratum priorities--elsewise this would amount to a flagrant violation of the Decree Passive.

In the beginning of the first one, the Cardinal before Seige begins declares a war of faith (as advised by several of his adviser). The Ordo Hereticus then tries to kill him with an assassin. This plot fails and allows the Cardinal to gain control of the planet. The Imperium then starts discussing on how to take the planet back. Yet the Ordo Hereticus point tried to claim that they should gain control not cause of a war of faith but because the Cardinal was a traitor and he had attack the sisters of battle. Thus he should face the punishment of the Ordo Hereticu (siege of vraks part III page 6).

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:That was the point, it was a theoretical example. Not meant to be a serious real world example.

Obviously it was not a real world example. I wasn't criticizing it as unrealistic. My criticism is that it doesn't show that the Ecclesiarchy and Ordo Hereticus are inter-penetrative but rather only that Ordo Hereticus influences the Ecclesiarchy.

And the Ecclesiarchy also affects the Ordo Hereticus.
Who do you think the Witchfinder in the second Eisenhorn book worked for?

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Kanluwen wrote:Some Guard regiments second themselves to the Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy exclusively, despite the Conclave of Nephilim's pronouncement. There are also shrineworlds that raise Guard regiments for nothing but crusades in the name of those Saints they're devoted to.

In either situation, the regiment would still fall under the jurisdiction of the Administratum. The Inquisition never maintains its own armies. In the second situation, don't forget that any such crusade would not take precedence over Administratum priorities--elsewise this would amount to a flagrant violation of the Decree Passive.

Kanluwen wrote:And the Ecclesiarchy also affects the Ordo Hereticus.

Don't think Tantalid is a good example of this but I may just not be remembering the character very clearly. My point, to use a very blunt example, is that while Ordo Hereticus can indirectly control the Ecclesiarchical hierarchy--by excommunicating and executing anyone they do not like--the Ecclesiarchy has no such power over the Inquisition, including Ordo Hereticus. When it comes right down to it, a Ministorum priest can say whatever he likes about an Inquisitors faith and it won't make a whit of difference. But should an Inquisitor say that priest is a heretic . . . well, so much for that priest.

Kanluwen wrote:Inquisitors do actually maintain their own armies, depending on the Inquisitor's interpretation of an Inquisitor's role.

I can only remember them using independent Imperial forces--other than their immediate retinues, of course. I suppose that an individual Inquisitor could command a retinue of army-like proportions but that's hardly the same thing as having one's own personal IG regiment or SM chapter.

Kanluwen wrote:See Manchu, but therein lies the caveat that really bothers me:
Do the Sororitas actively question the Cardinals?

Yes. Undeniably, unequivocally, yes.

Indeed, one of the main reasons why the Sisters are allowed to exist is because just as they are the army of the Ecclesiarchy, so to do they police the Ecclesiarchy. The Sisters are loyal to one being, and one being only in the end. And He does not favor the corrupt.