29272
Post by: Riffzor
Right, I'm not a fan of Communism, Nazism, or any religious beliefs of one person being worth more than another, I believe in individual freedom under the supervizing of an elected goverment.
So, to the point of this topic. I love how Tau looks on the field, I love their gear, I love their characteristics and all, but I just can't get over their fluff! As someone said loud what I was thinking when reading the fluff on another thread, 'Tau are commies'. How am I to field an army which I know are fighting for something so... oposite of what I believe in, it doesn't feel right! =s
NOTE: This thread is not made for political debate, it's a bit of ... Nerdrage I guess, and hope for that someone can help me get over the fluff somehow.
I was thinking about remaking the fluff and build an army anyhow, but since the Tau haven't been around for long there's little room for me to change much. The ideas I've had so far would be the Etherals being something priest-equivelant (equilevant?), or more monk-like (priests don't fight, monks do!). I've never made any Fluff that sticks that far off of something such important to the species before though, have anyone got an own Tau Fluff that allows inter-caste-ic(?) breeding (Not 'cause it's part of the gameplay or anything but, I still believe in blind love xD), that doesn't say that the Etherals' word is law, and so on which I could get some inspiration from?
Thankies.
- Riffzor
5351
Post by: Jazz is for Losers
Riffzor wrote:
NOTE: This thread is not made for political debate, it's a bit of ... Nerdrage I guess, and hope for that someone can help me get over the fluff somehow.
Cuddles?
29272
Post by: Riffzor
I'm a Swede, I don't do cuddling. =o Then again, how could I resist the offer when it comes from someone with a sheep and an owl avatar...?
5351
Post by: Jazz is for Losers
I'll be the sheep, you can be the owl. You look happier already.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
Actually, The Tau do not fit the definition of communist. There is a common mistake people make in equating Collectivist and Communist.
If someone tries to argue that they are, just point out thier caste system which is a form of class system.
If somebody else points to the part of Tau fluff that describes all members of the empire as equals for their proof of Tau as communists, then point out that the US makes the same claim that we are all equal. The US is definitely not communist, currently. 
The Tau are probably best described as an Imperialist Theocracy.
If the differing PoV upsets you then I offer Iterwebz hugz for comfort.
If your looking for a fluff discussion I think that there maybe another forum for such.
As for a starting place for where the ethereals aren't in total control, Start with the Farsight Enclave. Maybe refugee's from the Enclave who inter bred across castes but then return to the Tau empire.
22070
Post by: Crimson Cobra
If it really bothers you, just pull a Farsight.
Ethereals are garbage on the board anyway.
Just make up some stuff about a divergent sept that doesn't follow the greater good but their own beliefs instead.
Done.
29272
Post by: Riffzor
focusedfire wrote:Actually, The Tau do not fit the definition of communist. There is a common mistake people make in equating Collectivist and Communist.
If someone tries to argue that they are, just point out thier caste system which is a form of class system.
If somebody else points to the part of Tau fluff that describes all members of the empire as equals for their proof of Tau as communists, then point out that the US makes the same claim that we are all equal. The US is definitely not communist, currently.
The Tau are probably best described as an Imperialist Theocracy.
If the differing PoV upsets you then I offer Iterwebz hugz for comfort.
If your looking for a fluff discussion I think that there maybe another forum for such.
As for a starting place for where the ethereals aren't in total control, Start with the Farsight Enclave. Maueb refugee's from the Enclave who inter brd across castes but then return to the Tau empire.
I didn't accuse them of being communists more than Nazi's really, they've got part of both's ways, as well as a caste system clearly inspired by Indian mythology (Asian indian, not American Indian).
The Caste system, creating segregation between the Tau Species, making them something of sub-races, which aren't allowed to breed with one another, sounds like Nazism to me. 'You're of one race, you're of another. Don't breed'.
The Etherals obviously believing themselves to be superior, and even if they are, they tell the others what to do and pronounce themselves leaders. They're the ones who sets the rules and laws, right? Such as saying that the Fire Caste must battle for 12 years, if they survive they may join some council, otherwise they must continue to fight until they die. Dictatureship, telling people how to live, and in this case 'fight for us, your cause, until you die'.
They go ahead spreading in the galaxy, threatning other xenos to join their cause, or be killed. This was also done by Nazi's, as well as the Roman Empire, as well as European Settlers in Africa, Asia and America, and probably by Sovjet too, I'd guess blindly (even though my knowledge of the Sovjet history is very, very bad.)
Every aspect I find within the Tau, are that of Dictatureship, Extremism and Religious Zealotry, all which I despise.
However as Cobra said, I could do something like Farsight, although I need to find out what exactly that was.
Thanks for the help guys.
29538
Post by: Chuggy G
Riffzor wrote:Right, I'm not a fan of Communism, Nazism, or any religious beliefs of one person being worth more than another, I believe in individual freedom under the supervizing of an elected goverment.
So, to the point of this topic. I love how Tau looks on the field, I love their gear, I love their characteristics and all, but I just can't get over their fluff! As someone said loud what I was thinking when reading the fluff on another thread, 'Tau are commies'. How am I to field an army which I know are fighting for something so... oposite of what I believe in, it doesn't feel right! =s
NOTE: This thread is not made for political debate, it's a bit of ... Nerdrage I guess, and hope for that someone can help me get over the fluff somehow.
I was thinking about remaking the fluff and build an army anyhow, but since the Tau haven't been around for long there's little room for me to change much. The ideas I've had so far would be the Etherals being something priest-equivelant (equilevant?), or more monk-like (priests don't fight, monks do!). I've never made any Fluff that sticks that far off of something such important to the species before though, have anyone got an own Tau Fluff that allows inter-caste-ic(?) breeding (Not 'cause it's part of the gameplay or anything but, I still believe in blind love xD), that doesn't say that the Etherals' word is law, and so on which I could get some inspiration from?
Thankies.
- Riffzor
Okay, let's be honest. The very implication that you should be believing -anything- your 40K army stands for is ridiculous. The game is one of black and black morality, do space marine players believe extermination of people who don't share your religion or race or are just different is a good thing? I certainly hope not! Do Dark Eldar players believe... well, let's not go there. Bad things. The Tau are without a doubt have the moral high ground on pretty much all the other factions, but I can't understand -why- you'd complain that they don't reflect your political beliefs. It's a bloody game!
In addition, Tau aren't Communists, they are a rigid caste system.
Riffzor wrote:Every aspect I find within the Tau, are that of Dictatureship, Extremism and Religious Zealotry, all which I despise.
Ah-hah. I just had to cherry-pick this little gem of a statement. Bad enough you're saying you hate the -fictional- army of aliens for their belief system. Worse, Dictatorship, Extremism and Religious Zealotry are staples of every single thinking faction in the entirety of Warhammer 40k.
29272
Post by: Riffzor
*folds arms* Exactly! *nods firmly* ... Wait, what?
Yeah I know it's fictional and all that, but.. There's a reason to why I prefer Khorne and Space Wolves in the CSM and Space Marines, don't tell me people don't choose armies because they enjoy their battle style and/or fluff?
If it wasn't for the boring Fluff about Space Marines, there'd probably be even more (well, if that'd be possible) Space marine players.
15115
Post by: Brother SRM
I think it's best not to look into the politics of 40k too much. Pretty much everyone has wretched ideals, and there is nowhere in the universe I would want to live. To be honest, the only folks who are happy in the 41st millennium are the Orks!
29272
Post by: Riffzor
True.
But I think the Ork technology has become a bit too much, I like it when it's simple as in Bikers, Trukks, looted tanks. No Wierdboys or tractorbeams. As far as I can remember from the old Ork codex, it said Orks come from sacks growing under mushrooms in the shade of rocks, that starts growing when another ork... Uh.. Makes the nr.2 behind it. *nod*
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
Riffzor wrote:How am I to field an army which I know are fighting for something so... oposite of what I believe in, it doesn't feel right! =s
So what does this say about people who play Tyranids, Necrons, Dark Eldar, or Chaos then?
I think you're making a big deal out of nothing.
15115
Post by: Brother SRM
Riffzor wrote:True.
But I think the Ork technology has become a bit too much, I like it when it's simple as in Bikers, Trukks, looted tanks. No Wierdboys or tractorbeams. As far as I can remember from the old Ork codex, it said Orks come from sacks growing under mushrooms in the shade of rocks, that starts growing when another ork... Uh.. Makes the nr.2 behind it. *nod*
What do you mean by Ork tech being simple, then naming complex stuff? Weirdboyz aren't techy, they're just bonkers. Orks are cunning savages, but have the innate ability to make crap work with their imaginations. And yeah, Orks reproduce by shedding their spores, which is done by skin flaking off, dying, or yes, taking a number two.
There's some Eldar quote about Orks and how theirs is the ideal society, with no strife or social angst. They're just happy to beat the crap out of everything.
29272
Post by: Riffzor
What, I don't mind Tyranids floating around eating everything, nor Necrons trying to anihilate all life, nor the Dark Eldar or Chaos whom likes to inflict pain. *shrug*
And yeah, it became big when someone poked me about it. o.O
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Riffzor wrote:How am I to field an army which I know are fighting for something so... oposite of what I believe in, it doesn't feel right! =s
Yeah, better play Space Nazis (Imperium), Devourers of all living (Tyranids, Necrons), tormenting slavers (Dark Eldar), religious fanatics ( DH, WH), or people killing for the fun of it (Orks) 
BTW, please read a bit mora about Tau and about communism, they have not much in common. And BTW I play Tau exactly because of their fluff, as I didn't want a "aaargh ... must kill everything in sight" fluff army (except Tyranids ).
10279
Post by: focusedfire
Every faction except Tyramids in 40K would fall under the definition of Fascist. This is intentional in that if you are going to wage prolonged wars you have to instill the fascist mentality into your populace or they will lose their will to continue the fight.
As to the Castes not inter-breeding. The Tau were sort of doing that at the tribal level before the Ethereals showed up. Also, the Tau are not trying to breed a master race but are practicing selective breeding to create naturally specialized individuals/tools for the Greater Good.
Now look at how breeding is handled in the Imperiums hive worlds and then think about servitors. You have a problem with a species following a natural segrgational tendency that is guided for the betterment of the whole race, but have no problems with babies being lobotomized to create memory storage units for techpriests.
As to the Fluff, Yeah, Farsight is your ticket. A string of fortress worlds run by the Fire Caste and not a single Ethereal within 50 lightyears(distance made up, but you should get the point).
12140
Post by: mal
I've always felt that the Tau are more like the 'space UN'.
In a bad way.
20895
Post by: karimabuseer
Tau are generally not that great. They get praised in the 40k threads, with people saying they'd like to be them...but they sterilise humans, and segregate each other! Neo-nazis if you ask me
28494
Post by: NoShoes
the caste system is based on the Hindu one I believe, and it's stated in one of the codices that the Tau are all mind controlled by the ethereals via pheremones (otherwise they'd be fighting each other)
I think they're based more on Space Asians.
23697
Post by: SwanCo
focusedfire wrote:Actually, The Tau do not fit the definition of communist. There is a common mistake people make in equating Collectivist and Communist.
If someone tries to argue that they are, just point out thier caste system which is a form of class system.
If somebody else points to the part of Tau fluff that describes all members of the empire as equals for their proof of Tau as communists, then point out that the US makes the same claim that we are all equal. The US is definitely not communist, currently.
The Tau are probably best described as an Imperialist Theocracy.
If the differing PoV upsets you then I offer Iterwebz hugz for comfort.
If your looking for a fluff discussion I think that there maybe another forum for such.
As for a starting place for where the ethereals aren't in total control, Start with the Farsight Enclave. Maybe refugee's from the Enclave who inter bred across castes but then return to the Tau empire.
The reason i say tau are commies is more along the lines of "everyhting is done for the greater good" ideology used by the tau. They are not communists per say but do have a very similar political view from what i've seen. Plus...its the only thing i've got to say against my brother's Tau so i have to keep it as an argument as to why i hate his army Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and the empire of man is a fascist govenrment
29272
Post by: Riffzor
SwanCo wrote:focusedfire wrote:Actually, The Tau do not fit the definition of communist. There is a common mistake people make in equating Collectivist and Communist.
If someone tries to argue that they are, just point out thier caste system which is a form of class system.
If somebody else points to the part of Tau fluff that describes all members of the empire as equals for their proof of Tau as communists, then point out that the US makes the same claim that we are all equal. The US is definitely not communist, currently.
The Tau are probably best described as an Imperialist Theocracy.
If the differing PoV upsets you then I offer Iterwebz hugz for comfort.
If your looking for a fluff discussion I think that there maybe another forum for such.
As for a starting place for where the ethereals aren't in total control, Start with the Farsight Enclave. Maybe refugee's from the Enclave who inter bred across castes but then return to the Tau empire.
The reason i say tau are commies is more along the lines of "everyhting is done for the greater good" ideology used by the tau. They are not communists per say but do have a very similar political view from what i've seen. Plus...its the only thing i've got to say against my brother's Tau so i have to keep it as an argument as to why i hate his army
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and the empire of man is a fascist govenrment
I guess I'll just field them and make up some own fluff for them, fluff doesn't matter on the table anyhow. *shrug* If I chose them, that is. >.<
23697
Post by: SwanCo
maybe you could be renegade tau who broke away?
lolol i'd say chaos tau except for the fact that they can physically not stand chaos...like it would kill them
27871
Post by: Shatter.proof
Tau can't be fascist.. They have the Space pope!
23697
Post by: SwanCo
Shatter.proof wrote:Tau can't be fascist.. They have the Space pope!
Empire of man is fascist...space pope is a lie XD
29272
Post by: Riffzor
I never understood that part, if they couldn't warp-travel long distances because of the warp being hazzardous for them as a race, or because their technology didn't 'permi' it. But there aren't any Tau psychers so..
And yeah, non-Chaos renegate tau. I think I've got a plan about that.
The Fire Caste were the hardest for the etherals to convince to join them, the commander of my Force, which either will be an Etheral or a Commander, will either as a commander hate the etherals because they aren't free to maraud as they want, or if it's an etheral it'll be one that lost faith in the 'greater good' when he saw that there were aliens such as tyranids and Orks that would never join their cause, and since they wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of wiping them both out from existance (besides there's plenty of other Xenos out there whom never would join their cause, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos, Mankind (although those aren't Xenos), Necrons, and I'm sure there are plenty of aliens not represented by armies that can be found in the novels and fluff that wouldn't care to join them. )
27871
Post by: Shatter.proof
Naw Tau got the space pope the Empire has Jesus.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
karimabuseer wrote:Tau are generally not that great. They get praised in the 40k threads, with people saying they'd like to be them...but they sterilise humans, and segregate each other! Neo-nazis if you ask me
Not truly Neo-Nazi's. The only thing the Tau share with the Neo-Nazi's is a fascist belief in thier manifest destiny. Something that all races(Except 'Nids and maybe Orks) have in 40K.
Don't get me wrong, their governmental system can in no way make them the good guys. They are just the logical ones that understand the formula of united we stand and divided we fall.
BTW, the Sterilization all humans thing seems to be a myth as to that the Tau are maintaining a Human population over a period of centuries. They may be practicing population control but are not forcing the Gue'vesa into entropy.
NoShoes wrote:the caste system is based on the Hindu one I believe, and it's stated in one of the codices that the Tau are all mind controlled by the ethereals via pheremones (otherwise they'd be fighting each other)
I think they're based more on Space Asians.
This is dead on.
SwanCo wrote:The reason i say tau are commies is more along the lines of "everyhting is done for the greater good" ideology used by the tau. They are not communists per say but do have a very similar political view from what i've seen. Plus...its the only thing i've got to say against my brother's Tau so i have to keep it as an argument as to why i hate his army
Seeing as they are the Space Asians, maybe you could just tease him that the Tau are the Hapu of the Imperium. That the Tau's position in the galaxy is as the Proprietors of open all millenia conveniance stores and to whom the Adeptus Mechanicus outsources their jobs. Thank you very much, Please come again.
Riffzor wrote:I never understood that part, if they couldn't warp-travel long distances because of the warp being hazzardous for them as a race, or because their technology didn't 'permi' it. But there aren't any Tau psychers so..
Current fluff has the Tau making use of another races Psyker abilities to navigate deeper into the Warp. Personally dont care for this bit of Fluff. Would much rather that they came up with fluff where the Tau stole the Tech from Necrons or developed some other alternate means such as Hyperspace.
14070
Post by: SagesStone
Their race is based on Confucianism
29117
Post by: Snowman90
Riffzor wrote:Right, I'm not a fan of Communism, Nazism, or any religious beliefs of one person being worth more than another, I believe in individual freedom under the supervizing of an elected goverment.
So, to the point of this topic. I love how Tau looks on the field, I love their gear, I love their characteristics and all, but I just can't get over their fluff! As someone said loud what I was thinking when reading the fluff on another thread, 'Tau are commies'. How am I to field an army which I know are fighting for something so... oposite of what I believe in, it doesn't feel right! =s
NOTE: This thread is not made for political debate, it's a bit of ... Nerdrage I guess, and hope for that someone can help me get over the fluff somehow.
I was thinking about remaking the fluff and build an army anyhow, but since the Tau haven't been around for long there's little room for me to change much. The ideas I've had so far would be the Etherals being something priest-equivelant (equilevant?), or more monk-like (priests don't fight, monks do!). I've never made any Fluff that sticks that far off of something such important to the species before though, have anyone got an own Tau Fluff that allows inter-caste-ic(?) breeding (Not 'cause it's part of the gameplay or anything but, I still believe in blind love xD), that doesn't say that the Etherals' word is law, and so on which I could get some inspiration from?
Thankies.
- Riffzor
It's just that, fluff. Don't let a story ruin your gaming fun. I mean yeah, it's awesome to be able to talk gak. And say "Oh my primarch did (insert comment") but even if you don't like the fluff, you can still say "Oh you remember that time my 2k tau stomped your 2k (insert army here).
29272
Post by: Riffzor
I agree, their race is based on confusion. 
25139
Post by: micahaphone
Here's how it works, in my mind. Make up your own fluff if the current stuff doesn't fit you. Say there was a conspiracy exposed about the etherals, which is why you have none. Heck, you can even say that this is the reason you can fight other Tau forces!
23697
Post by: SwanCo
micahaphone wrote:Here's how it works, in my mind. Make up your own fluff if the current stuff doesn't fit you. Say there was a conspiracy exposed about the etherals, which is why you have none. Heck, you can even say that this is the reason you can fight other Tau forces!
^ i like that.
But your not going to want an etherial HQ. they suck. your going to want a crisis suit commander or whatever. they fething own and have tons of upgrades. plus the FW one looks pretty shnazzy
29272
Post by: Riffzor
FW one?
btw, may the HQ deepstrike? (If there's just one of 'em) or do I have to field 1 hq and 2 troops, and all apart from that may deepstrike/summon/be reserves otherwise?
23697
Post by: SwanCo
ah now your talking ninja tau i think you can have everyone in reserve and deepstrike... only take battle suits and drones (drones are better then people put them out to be) deepstrike evertything, and scare the hell out of your opponent when you start with an empty battlefield Automatically Appended Next Post: Riffzor wrote:FW one?
this guy  http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tau/TAU-BATTLESUITS-AND-DRONES/TAU-BATTLESUIT-COMMANDER-SHAS-O-RALAI-WITH-DRONES.html
26794
Post by: zeshin
Yeah, as was said don't worry about the fluff. Persoanlly I play a Tau supremecicst army who won't use Kroot or Vespids. I personally don't like the look of either, and kroot are so anti everything I like about Tau, so I made up fluff about a farsight-like enclave that won't deal with any alien races, even ones who serve the greater good.
29272
Post by: Riffzor
Yeah I'm going Tau. Now to make an army list...
27277
Post by: starhawks1
or you know you could just realize that it's a game with made up stories and plastic soldiers...that always works for me, I'm not a devil worshipper I'm Catholic but I like chaos marines, they go against everything my religion stands for but who cares? it's science fiction
26607
Post by: Gorgarak
I used to have the same issue with many armies when deciding to play 40K. Gotta find an army fluff wise that speaks to you, if thats your sort of thing. For me I prefer Eldar, Dark eldar, Orks, Tau and Necrons. Eldar races are great because they can pretty much be whatever you want them to be....even 'good' eldar forces still are crazy agressive space elves who want to blow you to peices. On the other hand, they'll sit down and chat to you about things if it suits their purpose. Dark Eldar not so much....but still good backrounds.
Personally I find Tau hilarious. Their society makes complete sense to me. It's like an ant colony really. They have warriors, workers, air ships, etc. They all have defined tasks which they excel at and exist to do those things to contribute towards others well beings. Everyone works together to make up for everyone elses short comings, thus creating harmony. All sounds great right? I think it gets funny when they try to apply their beleifs to everyone else, simply because they can't see how anyone else would even consider not agreeing with them. They're no worse than the imperium really, although at least they ask questions first and shoot later, rather than the reverse. In all honesty, it's a practical approach in the 40K universe. Every race wants to kill each other for simply for existing....May as well pretend you have some morals while doing it!
29117
Post by: Snowman90
Riffzor wrote:Yeah I'm going Tau. Now to make an army list...
Plus, the fluff for the Tau, doesn't have to be the fluff for your army. You can change it(to a believeable degree(well believeable to 40k)). I don't know much about tau, I haven't started that army yet, but if i wanted to i could make my nids as a army from a hive fleet i made up. Or whatever. You can add your own ideas into the Tau fluff.
29272
Post by: Riffzor
Gorgarak wrote:It's like an ant colony really. They have warriors, workers, air ships, etc. They all have defined tasks which they excel at and exist to do those things to contribute towards others well beings. Everyone works together to make up for everyone elses short comings, thus creating harmony.
.. Yeah I actually just watched a picture of some T'au Firewarriors and thought 'Hey, they remind me of my LotR Easterling army, they look like ants!'
And whilst I understand that behaviour from ants, whose lives are relatively short and easy, I wouldn't find it acceptable for a humanoid species with intelligence and technology to match (or in this case be even better than) us.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
I'd like to suggest the N'Dras Sept for your Army.
Current fluff has it that the Tau abandoned this world for some unknown reason and that other Tau Septs view the Tau from this world with suspicion.
Sounds like just the right fluff basis for your army that doesn't cripple you with Farsights gimped army list.
29272
Post by: Riffzor
*flips open the codex* ... Hey, perfect! Short tempered and viewed with suspicion! .. Now let's hope N'Dras was a snow world 'cause I want white uniforms and tanks!
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
It is always hilarious to read threads about Tau background, always end with something like "Tau are communist space nazi catholic Hindu fishmen ants of Japan", followed by the "and they genocide everyone".
BTW do you know where this last statement comes from? There is a non- GW PC game "Dawn of War-Dark Crusade" with a typical campaign world where as on Medusa V ALL races are present. In the campaign you have scenarios for each race with a winning and losing ending. In an ending that doesn't happen in the official 40k background, Tau win, put the male and female human prisoners in separate camps. An Imperial narrator now speculates, why the human population decreases. Can it be because men and women are in separate camps? Possible The narrator goes on speculating and gets to a third theory, that Tau might have sterilized the human population. So this idiotic third likeliest speculation by a biased narrator, taking place in a parallel world to 40k in a non- GW PC game became the "and Tau sterilize all their enemies". Sad but true.
There are many other similar things happening in Tau background threads. Too many people post in Tau threads out of hate, not bothering to read official background.
21196
Post by: agnosto
Kroothawk wrote:It is always hilarious to read threads about Tau background, always end with something like "Tau are communist space nazi catholic Hindu fishmen ants of Japan", followed by the "and they genocide everyone".
BTW do you know where this last statement comes from? There is a non- GW PC game "Dawn of War-Dark Crusade" with a typical campaign world where as on Medusa V ALL races are present. In the campaign you have scenarios for each race with a winning and losing ending. In an ending that doesn't happen in the official 40k background, Tau win, put the male and female human prisoners in separate camps. An Imperial narrator now speculates, why the human population decreases. Can it be because men and women are in separate camps? Possible The narrator goes on speculating and gets to a third theory, that Tau might have sterilized the human population. So this idiotic third likeliest speculation by a biased narrator, taking place in a parallel world to 40k in a non- GW PC game became the "and Tau sterilize all their enemies". Sad but true.
There are many other similar things happening in Tau background threads. Too many people post in Tau threads out of hate, not bothering to read official background.
QFT!!
28235
Post by: Necroman
Kroothawk wrote:It is always hilarious to read threads about Tau background, always end with something like "Tau are communist space nazi catholic Hindu fishmen ants of Japan",
Personally, I think they remind me of Fuedal Europe (That might just be the Space Pope thing, I guess). We all have our own views; even the Imperium, with some obviously Roman influences, reminds me of Pre-Imperialist Japan with its fanaticism, technological stagnation, distrust of outsiders, and idealistic view of combat with armored men wielding swords.
karimabuseer wrote:Tau are generally not that great. They get praised in the 40k threads, with people saying they'd like to be them...but they sterilise humans, and segregate each other! Neo-nazis if you ask me
Problem is, the Imperium will do the exact same thing to you. Remember the First War of Armageddon?
The only ones who do not actively try to assimilate or destroy humans in their primary agenda would be the Eldar, and they still have no problem leading a bunch of Orks to Armageddon if it saves one of their own.
26880
Post by: pops101
tau rule socialism FTW
722
Post by: Kanluwen
The Nazis did everything "for the Greater Good".
So did the Bolsheviks, Castro's regime, the Baath party, Vlad the Impaler, and any number of completely bloody rulers and their followers...
Just sayin'. The Tau sure as hell aren't Communists or Socialists, not with a caste system with no upward mobility(Air Caste can't become Fire Caste, etc) in place.
13559
Post by: NuclearMessiah
Riffzor wrote:*flips open the codex* ... Hey, perfect! Short tempered and viewed with suspicion! .. Now let's hope N'Dras was a snow world 'cause I want white uniforms and tanks!
Well great thing about Tau is that they color their uniforms and armor based on the environment they are fighting on not their sept world.
28494
Post by: NoShoes
Kanluwen wrote:The Nazis did everything "for the Greater Good".
So did the Bolsheviks, Castro's regime, the Baath party, Vlad the Impaler, and any number of completely bloody rulers and their followers...
Just sayin'. The Tau sure as hell aren't Communists or Socialists, not with a caste system with no upward mobility(Air Caste can't become Fire Caste, etc) in place.
Au contraire, the Tau have high society just like everyone else, you have the bottom feeders (suffix 'la) such as Gue'la (lowest being), Shas'la (lowest fire warrior) etc. then you go up the ranks as you progress (so next highest is 'ui, then 'vre, then ' el and finally 'o).
Some interesting tidbits, the term "Gue'la" mentioned in the codex sounds awfully similar to the cantonese "Guilo" as slang for a person from western europe. IIRC, the Fire Warriors are also based on ancient chinese foot infantry, while the battlesuits are obviously based on japanese mecha.
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Post by: focusedfire
NoShoes wrote:Some interesting tidbits, the term "Gue'la" mentioned in the codex sounds awfully similar to the cantonese "Guilo" as slang for a person from western europe. IIRC, the Fire Warriors are also based on ancient chinese foot infantry, while the battlesuits are obviously based on japanese mecha.
You are over thinking it. The term gue'la is the continuation of the in-house joke starteted with the Eldars name for the humans, the Mon-kiegh'
Do you get it? Gue'la and Mon-kiegh=gorilla and monkey
This little linguistic connection has been used with another story of a crashed Eldar ship to speculate that the Eldar are the creators of the Tau. This theory can be filed with the others of Tau origin as a bit of 40K ominous to which the answer will never be revealed. As to the other theories, I'll list all of the credible possibilities:
1)That the Eldar Created the Tau and sheltered them with the Warp Storms
2)That the Old ones created and sheltered this race of psychic nulls to help restore balance to the Galaxy and by extention the Warp.
3)That Chaos dreamed the Tau up in a nightmare the same way Slanesh and the Chaos Gods were created and twisted in the Warp.
4)That the Ad Mech invented the Tau and shielded them with false signals of a Warp Storm.(The Tau accelerated their evolution after the Ad Mech Suevey Team)
5)None of the above, The synthetic protiens found in the Taus DNA were either made up or were put there by the Tau themselves as an effort to develope more quickly.
Have fun with these theories, they make for interest in debates as to the long term effects of the Tau Empire
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
I don't think there's any fluff on the economic system of the Tau. They're just plain old "for the good of the nation" Fascists.
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Post by: Riffzor
Kanluwen wrote:The Nazis did everything "for the Greater Good".
So did the Bolsheviks, Castro's regime, the Baath party, Vlad the Impaler, and any number of completely bloody rulers and their followers...
Just sayin'. The Tau sure as hell aren't Communists or Socialists, not with a caste system with no upward mobility(Air Caste can't become Fire Caste, etc) in place.
*is a Vlad fan, so doesn't really notice what the post is about*
Anyhow, let's just go with that the Tau are over-sized, blue ants with high technology. They have workers, warriors, queens and... stuffs, and have not invented a way to switch between the five 'genders'. One ant hill ain't enough, so they go out to build more, and don't like it when the others come ruffling their stuffs about, so they bite back. *nod*
Also, my specific ants will be snow-ants! *cackles madly*
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Post by: Ashtaroth
How am I to field an army which I know are fighting for something so... oposite of what I believe in, it doesn't feel right! =s
i know exactly what you mean. i only play tyranid because, in my everday life, i wander from town to town devouring every living thing i come into contact with, control other tyranid players via synaptic link, and spawn new tyranid players using the resultant biomass.
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Post by: agnosto
MasterSlowPoke wrote:I don't think there's any fluff on the economic system of the Tau. They're just plain old "for the good of the nation" Fascists.
Not when they have an entire caste that's involved in trade. The imperium cracked down on some fringe worlds because they noticed heretical tech being employed in the form of advanced farming machinery. It's in the most recent codex.
I wouldn't say their fascist, more like spacefaring jehova's witnesses. "Excuse me sir, have your heard of the Greater Good? Here, why don't you sample this technology while I tell you about what the collective can do for you."
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Post by: Snowman90
agnosto wrote:MasterSlowPoke wrote:I don't think there's any fluff on the economic system of the Tau. They're just plain old "for the good of the nation" Fascists.
Not when they have an entire caste that's involved in trade. The imperium cracked down on some fringe worlds because they noticed heretical tech being employed in the form of advanced farming machinery. It's in the most recent codex.
I wouldn't say their fascist, more like spacefaring jehova's witnesses. "Excuse me sir, have your heard of the Greater Good? Here, why don't you sample this technology while I tell you about what the collective can do for you."
That's pretty much right. I didn't think of it that way, but now that it's out there, can I use it? When i make my tau army they are going to be called something like "SJHW" or "The Space Jehovah's Witnesses"
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
agnosto wrote:MasterSlowPoke wrote:I don't think there's any fluff on the economic system of the Tau. They're just plain old "for the good of the nation" Fascists.
Not when they have an entire caste that's involved in trade. The imperium cracked down on some fringe worlds because they noticed heretical tech being employed in the form of advanced farming machinery. It's in the most recent codex.
I wouldn't say their fascist, more like spacefaring jehova's witnesses. "Excuse me sir, have your heard of the Greater Good? Here, why don't you sample this technology while I tell you about what the collective can do for you."
Yeah, the Water caste slipped my mind, but there really isn't all that much fluff on them. I don't have the 3rd Edition Tau book but I'm going to assume it doesn't go any more in depth than the 4th Edition one. There is a merchant class, but they act in the interests of the state, not their own welfare.
The Tau are pretty clearly fascist - if you're not familar with what fascism actually is beyond it's portrayal in popular culture, the Wikipedia (ugh, I know) actually has a pretty good explanation in those introductory paragraphs. Basically everything is done to improve the state - personal goals are not encouraged. If an action does not result in a benefit for the state, it's not worth doing. This conflicts with socialism or communism, which seek the benefit of the nation's citizens foremost, each in their own ways.
I'll end this with a quote. I hate to pull out the Hitler quotes but I guess it's appropriate in this discussion as he's basically Mr. Facsist. This quote wouldn't look out of place in the Tau codex:
It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize
that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence
of the nation, that the position of the individual is conditioned solely
by the interests of the nation as a whole.
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Post by: Riffzor
M'yeah, if you'd change the 'nation as a whole' at the end into the 'greater good' it fits perfectly.
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Post by: Henners91
Riffzor wrote:Right, I'm not a fan of Communism, Nazism, or any religious beliefs of one person being worth more than another, I believe in individual freedom under the supervizing of an elected goverment.
So, to the point of this topic. I love how Tau looks on the field, I love their gear, I love their characteristics and all, but I just can't get over their fluff! As someone said loud what I was thinking when reading the fluff on another thread, 'Tau are commies'. How am I to field an army which I know are fighting for something so... oposite of what I believe in, it doesn't feel right! =s
NOTE: This thread is not made for political debate, it's a bit of ... Nerdrage I guess, and hope for that someone can help me get over the fluff somehow.
I was thinking about remaking the fluff and build an army anyhow, but since the Tau haven't been around for long there's little room for me to change much. The ideas I've had so far would be the Etherals being something priest-equivelant (equilevant?), or more monk-like (priests don't fight, monks do!). I've never made any Fluff that sticks that far off of something such important to the species before though, have anyone got an own Tau Fluff that allows inter-caste-ic(?) breeding (Not 'cause it's part of the gameplay or anything but, I still believe in blind love xD), that doesn't say that the Etherals' word is law, and so on which I could get some inspiration from?
Thankies.
- Riffzor
Only a fool would think the Tau are commies... I've written this argument about a billion times before but they're based on Confucian philosophy of a harmonious society.
COMMUNISM DOES NOT ADVOCATE A CASTE SYSTEM.
Tau wish to subjugate everyone to the "greater good", their harmonious way of living... they can't abide by disorder within their own society and it's stated that they've covered up evidence of how fragile it is in order to keep an atmosphere of calm.
"Commie" is just a word used by Yankees to describe "Asian" it seems
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It may also be prudent to remind you that this is GRIMDARK and there's no ideal bourgeoisie democracy for you to play as 
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Post by: Witzkatz
While the Tau are probably fascists and the Imperium of Man is probably a fascist organization, there's a reason why the latter appeals more to me...the Tau Etherals are using some kind of pheromone shenanigan to control the T'au castes. The Imperium of Man uses good, old propaganda and brute force. The point is, a self-aware, intelligent individual might have the possibility to look through the propaganda and see it as what it is and react accordingly, either opposing it or accepting the altruistic way of fighting for mankind. With the Ethereal pheromone stuff, that possiblity isn't there, those guys influence the T'au on a so basic level that the normal caste people are basically enslaved to be semi-mindless drones. That's just unfair in my subjective point of view. 
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Post by: agnosto
Snowman90 wrote:agnosto wrote:MasterSlowPoke wrote:I don't think there's any fluff on the economic system of the Tau. They're just plain old "for the good of the nation" Fascists.
Not when they have an entire caste that's involved in trade. The imperium cracked down on some fringe worlds because they noticed heretical tech being employed in the form of advanced farming machinery. It's in the most recent codex.
I wouldn't say their fascist, more like spacefaring jehova's witnesses. "Excuse me sir, have your heard of the Greater Good? Here, why don't you sample this technology while I tell you about what the collective can do for you."
That's pretty much right. I didn't think of it that way, but now that it's out there, can I use it? When i make my tau army they are going to be called something like "SJHW" or "The Space Jehovah's Witnesses"
Go ahead.  Automatically Appended Next Post: MasterSlowPoke wrote:The Tau are pretty clearly fascist - if you're not familar with what fascism actually is beyond it's portrayal in popular culture, the Wikipedia (ugh, I know) actually has a pretty good explanation in those introductory paragraphs. Basically everything is done to improve the state - personal goals are not encouraged. If an action does not result in a benefit for the state, it's not worth doing. This conflicts with socialism or communism, which seek the benefit of the nation's citizens foremost, each in their own ways.
Again, I disagree with the Fascism analogy. Someone could very easily identify some aspects of fascism in Tau society; the reason for this is that they are a collective society. In the modern world there've only really been two types of collective governments, Communism and Fascism. It's for this reason that the Tau are commonly lumped into one of these two categories. What you are actually seeing with the Tau is a different form of collectivism than we have seen in real life. I'll explain how the Tau differ from both and then I'll conjecture as to what they actually are (politically speaking).
Fascism.
The Tau aren't really fascist. The Merriam-Webster definition of fascism is:
"A political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."
The Tau collective does not exalt their race over others, they trade freely with all cultures that they meet and try to express the benefits of their greater good. A fascist culture would simply dominate or destroy all those they meet. The Imperium more rightly fits this category. The Tau have no dictatorial leader; they have a ruling caste that basically operates a shadow government while letting the other castes do all the work. Again there is no severe economic suppression; however, social regimentation is easily evident.
So, you see, the Tau only fit a bare margin of what is considered Fascism.
Communism.
"A totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production. A final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably."
Tau more closely fit with Communism than with Fascism as there is an authoritarian "part" (caste); however, they don't necessarily control the means of production as it would be extremely easy for the water caste to make their own deals, the earth caste to create their own products and the fire caste to wage their own wars. There is also no evidence that goods are distributed equitably within the society and it is known that the Tau are willing to trade freely with other races.
I think why people attempt to match the Tau with either Fascism or Communism is simply that these two definitions are easy to grasp and most people don't want to take the time to actually think about. Kneejerk labeling of things is human nature; "this thing belongs in this box and this other thing belongs in this other box."
If I had to put a label on what form of government I think the Tau operate within; I would have to say it is a hybrid form of Oligarchical-Collectivism. The society ruled by a small group for the benefit of the whole.
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Post by: Riffzor
Well, as I said in the very first post, I'm no fan of either Communism or Fascism.
And as you say, it's easy to connect the Tau to both on first glance, whilst I of course see the huge differences there are.
So when a party comes up with something like 'tau-ism' I'm going to dislike them about as much as the other two, as I believe strongly in the individual responsibility and Democracy under an elected goverment on a local level.
(For example, in Sweden most politicians sits in Stockholm making laws about hunting and stuff, which have caused some raging debats about shooting wolves to protect one's cattle, or why the lapis are to have something like 40% of the country's land for their raindeers, forcing normal swedes to move from those areas and so on.)
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
How in the world do you think that the Tau government has "withered away". Is there any reason to think to think that any members of Tau society have any degree of autonomy?
The Tau do exalt their race above others. They engage in trade with other states hoping to make their eventual takeover peaceful - if the other state resists they will be either forcibly assimilated or eliminated. They're headed by a caste of dictators, the Ethereals, headed by Aun'va. Is there any evidence of economic freedom within Tau society? I can't see anyone being permitted to do work that didn't benefit the state (i.e. greater good).
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Post by: agnosto
MasterSlowPoke wrote:How in the world do you think that the Tau government has "withered away". Is there any reason to think to think that any members of Tau society have any degree of autonomy?
The Tau do exalt their race above others. They engage in trade with other states hoping to make their eventual takeover peaceful - if the other state resists they will be either forcibly assimilated or eliminated. They're headed by a caste of dictators, the Ethereals, headed by Aun'va. Is there any evidence of economic freedom within Tau society? I can't see anyone being permitted to do work that didn't benefit the state (i.e. greater good).
1st point: Before the rise of the ethereal caste; each caste, or tribe, had their own form of government and warred with each other indiscriminately. So, I guess you could say that once the controlling Oligarchs came to power, the original Tau governmental structures did "wither away".
2nd point:
Race: Page 2 of the codex; "Unlike most alien races which Humanity has encountered, the Tau are not overly hostile..."
further evidence on page 6 where it talks about the expansion of the empire and incorporation of many alien races being primarily willing. Case in point, the Kroot. Instead of conquering them, they are a willing member of the Tau empire and are even held in high esteem by the fire caste (page 6). The biggest hole in your argument is the entire first paragraph on page 7 of the codex which talks about the benefits of alien races being members of the empire and how they are granted roles of responsibility. I don't know about you but I've never seen racists honoring other races and granting them any sort of beaurocratic authority...
Dictators: The ethereal caste are pseudo-religous oligarchs. Again, a dictatorship has a supremely rigid, centralized authority. The ethereals are the true power; however, they do not make every decision that happens inside of the empire, it's simply too large and encompasses too many worlds/systems. They delegate authority to trusted beaurocrats (water caste, page 9) and even allow member species to rule themselves (otherwise the kroot would not get away with being mercenaries). The council is the ethereal caste; however, they are advised by members of the most powerful families from each caste (etheral caste, page 9). This is hardly dictatorial.
Economics: One of the primary roles of the water caste is trade. Why would you have an entire population devoted to trade and diplomacy if there wasn't an open trade system? Of course everyone is directed to serve the greater good (collectivism); however, there is mention of culture and art. Compare tau architecture with human and tell me that there aren't artists. The Dal'yth sept is completely devoted to merchantilism. Fal'shla is famed for it's art. and so on. Hardly restrictive.
I'm not saying Tau are "good"; I merely don't believe they are communist or fascist.
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Post by: Riffzor
Well, no the Tau don't follow every part of either the Communist of Fascist ideologies, but they resemble to both in several matters. Calling them either communists or fascists are a bit over... exagurating? (Can't spell the word).
But look at Nazi Germany, Hitler didn't make every descision about everything in each town and village, a structure of the excisting beurocrats (although often supervised pretty strictly) had the responsibilities simular to that of the Water Caste in the Tau. Of course, if Hitler said 'I want you to build a bunker in this town', they would, and I'm quite sure that the case would be the same if an Etheral requested a simular task of a Tau colony.
And like Kroot, other Axis nations that weren't under direct controll of Hitler had somewhat different ideologies, such as Italy.
Atleast that's how I've understood it from my old, dusty history teacher. *shrug*
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Post by: agnosto
I just don't feel any of the traditional labels absolutely fits. You can definitely see aspects of Fascism and Communism in the collective sense with strong elements of Confucianism with a core Oligarchical government. Too bad they're not real, they'd be an interesting case study.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Original GW designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
"No subjugation of other races? Only enticing them with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology? That's ... that's (wiping foam from the mouth) .... genocide! What an evil communist-nazi scum!" 
Please read at least one official background text on Tau and at least one text on political concepts before posting thinks like "Tau are nazi-communists". It is hard to argue with people who have no idea of what they are talking about and think that hate is a good enough substitute for logic and competence, always hoping that noone asks for any evidence for their statements.
For Tau please read the two Codices, the designer notes, the Battlefleet Gothic background texts on Tau and the novel "For the Emperor".
I live in a country, that suffered a lot from nazis and communists, so I am a bit touchy when I hear crap like this.
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Post by: SwanCo
Kroothawk wrote:Original GW designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)
"No subjugation of other races? Only enticing them with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology? That's ... that's (wiping foam from the mouth) .... genocide! What an evil communist-nazi scum!"
Please read at least one official background text on Tau and at least one text on political concepts before posting thinks like "Tau are nazi-communists". It is hard to argue with people who have no idea of what they are talking about and think that hate is a good enough substitute for logic and competence, always hoping that noone asks for any evidence for their statements.
For Tau please read the two Codices, the designer notes, the Battlefleet Gothic background texts on Tau and the novel "For the Emperor".
I live in a country, that suffered a lot from nazis and communists, so I am a bit touchy when I hear crap like this.
I have read many things and actually extensively studied communism (to prove why it was flawed, im not a communist) and once again will say that communist is a term i use do to lack of a better word and because it makes my brother mad.
They do show hints of fascism and communism but in reality they are what many people would call a "Utopia" of sorts where while there are castes, the different races live in relative peace and work together for the so called "greater good". Due to the use of a caste system however i can not necissarily call it a Utopian society and therefore choose instead to anger my brother with cries of communism.
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Post by: Vasarto
I always thought of the Tau like imperialists or like how the governments of Old England was. Its not a dictatorship or communism its a government and
society based off of what you are Born to do! If you are born into a family of Air Caste then that is what you will become! Each caste is forbiddon to mate with
another caste. Like a Nobel is forbidden to mate with a commoner! Each caste is physically different then each other and mentally different and especially is the
Ethereal caste. Who is the Nobel hierarchy that rules them all like how a king does!
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Post by: focusedfire
agnosto wrote:
2nd point:
Race: Page 2 of the codex; "Unlike most alien races which Humanity has encountered, the Tau are not overly hostile..."
further evidence on page 6 where it talks about the expansion of the empire and incorporation of many alien races being primarily willing. Case in point, the Kroot. Instead of conquering them, they are a willing member of the Tau empire and are even held in high esteem by the fire caste (page 6). The biggest hole in your argument is the entire first paragraph on page 7 of the codex which talks about the benefits of alien races being members of the empire and how they are granted roles of responsibility. I don't know about you but I've never seen racists honoring other races and granting them any sort of beaurocratic authority...
Nazi Germany had non-aryans that were included as a part of the nation as a whole and these individuals participated of there own free will, while knowing the long term goal was to breed out their "mongrel traits". These Non-Aryans were often honored for their contributions to the Fatherland.
agnosto wrote:Dictators: The ethereal caste are pseudo-religous oligarchs. Again, a dictatorship has a supremely rigid, centralized authority. The ethereals are the true power; however, they do not make every decision that happens inside of the empire, it's simply too large and encompasses too many worlds/systems. They delegate authority to trusted beaurocrats (water caste, page 9) and even allow member species to rule themselves (otherwise the kroot would not get away with being mercenaries). The council is the ethereal caste; however, they are advised by members of the most powerful families from each caste (etheral caste, page 9). This is hardly dictatorial.
Every government beyond the immediate local level has a beaurocracy. the vischy french were allowed a fair amount of autonomy, and Nazi germany still danced with the aristocracy.
agnosto wrote:Economics: One of the primary roles of the water caste is trade. Why would you have an entire population devoted to trade and diplomacy if there wasn't an open trade system? Of course everyone is directed to serve the greater good (collectivism); however, there is mention of culture and art. Compare tau architecture with human and tell me that there aren't artists. The Dal'yth sept is completely devoted to merchantilism. Fal'shla is famed for it's art. and so on. Hardly restrictive.
Art dedicated to the greater good. What if the art is considered to be against the empires interests?
Now, I agree that the Tau, as are most of the other races in 40K, would have a system of government that goes beyond our current labels. I'd like to clarify that my earlier statement was referring to the necessity of engendering the Fascist type of thought process. I wasn't saying that the Tau were 100% Fascist, just that almost every major race in 40 (excluding 'nids&orks) shows fascist traits.
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Post by: Retribution
The Tau aren't space Commies or space Nazi's, please go look into what those ideologies actually stand for
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Post by: focusedfire
Retribution wrote:The Tau aren't space Commies or space Nazi's, please go look into what those ideologies actually stand for
I have, I even looked into them before the current revisionist histories and definitions diluted and obscured their meanings.
(This is the older 1921 version)
Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
(The newer version)
Fascism:A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Do you note the subtle shift of emphasis from attempting to scientifically define the characteristics to a judgemental statement. The first definition allows or the individual to recognize Fascist traits without an inexorable connection to dictatorship, while the second emphatically states that this systems primary trait is a dictatorial leader.
(The older one from aroun 1840)
communism : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed.
(The newer revised version)
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
This one the revisions are much easier to see but what is funny is that the initial concept of a classless scociety is missing from both.
I didn't post the Leninist defintions because they focus on only one type of communism rather than on the base concept.
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Post by: DA's Forever
This thread has been deemed heretical by the Emperors Holy Inquisition =][=
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Post by: Baconfat
The Tau are neither communist, socialist, nazi, nor followers of confucianism.
They are Utilitarists. Actually a more militant Utilitarianism. The "greater good" is one of the Utilarianism catch phrases.
Baconfat
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Post by: SwanCo
Baconfat wrote:The Tau are neither communist, socialist, nazi, nor followers of confucianism.
They are Utilitarists. Actually a more militant Utilitarianism. The "greater good" is one of the Utilarianism catch phrases.
Baconfat
not quite true. in utilitarianism people are used how they would work best, the caste system in the tau government essentially removes the chances for a utilitarian government simply by keeping a vespid from doing the job of a fire warrior even if its better at it, or a kroot doing the job of an atherial even if he's better suit for the job.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
This whole thread is a silly argument.
The amount of fluff on the Tau is so tiny that no-one can do anything but guess at how their society is organised.
There is literally more fluff about Tyranid Special Characters in the 5e codex than there is about the whole Tau Empire in all GW publications.
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Post by: focusedfire
^Your right, but it is fun to speculate.
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Post by: SwanCo
focusedfire wrote:^Your right, but it is fun to speculate.
QFT
its a fun way to discuss politics in a non-political environment. I find it this to be a fun thread to shoot back to whenever i feel the need for a good argument
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Post by: Erasoketa
Whatever their fluff says, it doesn't say anything about you.
Are you a nazi for playing with Wehrmacht (or whatever it's spelt) in Day of Defeat or any other online game? Are you a nazi for playing FoW with a german army?
That would be stupid.
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Post by: agnosto
Kilkrazy wrote:This whole thread is a silly argument.
The amount of fluff on the Tau is so tiny that no-one can do anything but guess at how their society is organised.
There is literally more fluff about Tyranid Special Characters in the 5e codex than there is about the whole Tau Empire in all GW publications.
You're right of course; however, it's fun to have polite discourse on a subject. I like this thread and the fact that even though we all have differing ideas/thoughts, no one has thrown a tantrum; just a mature discussion.
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Post by: Riffzor
Well, I most often play Nazi's in WW2 games as of their weapons and vehicles.
Nothin' like popin' a few StG44 shots into others!
But yeah back to the topic. Whilst there may be little Tau fluff, the little there is at least says that everyone must fight for the greater good in whatever means they can within their Caste. The Fire Caste must fight for 12 years or so and do a rite after each 4th year, if they do that they may leave the 'army' and become some kinduva councilor. If not, they'll just have to keep on fighting until they're dead.
As earlier mentioned, the Tau doesn't fit into any ideology perfectly, but they have traces of several different extremist-ideologies. And yes, the Imperium of man is a fascistic empire that as far as I've understood it is pretty zealotry in their beliefs (*points at the Necron codex at the fluff where a ship is crashing and the techpriest or whatever he is, is trying to repair the ship* Just one of many examples.) Such as Omnisiah and the Emperor.. And once again my knowledge of the Imperial Fluff is limited.
Chaos do not have to rightify their deeds, they are supposed to be evil traitors, just look at the Night Lords. Criminals, rapists, murderers, turned into Space Marines under the most wicked guy their homeworld had to offer. One doesn't have to agree to their cause to play them, because it's amusing to be a little evul now and then.
Unlike Chaos, however, the Tau aren't 'evil' they're just... Ant-like.
I've already said what I think about ant-like humanoids though.
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Post by: agnosto
My own opinion is that the Tau aren't as constrained as most people think. If they were strictly controlled, then someone like farsight would never have had a chance to develop.
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Post by: Riffzor
Develop? Farsight is from the Fire Caste, born on that planet famous for its aggressive Fire Warriors. Furthermore, the more the leaders try to controll their subjects, the more their subjects will rebell.
Just look at me, my parents have tried to controll me my entire life, them both being pretty fond of their part of the scosiety. I ended up as a Skinhead. *shrug*
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Post by: agnosto
Riffzor wrote:Develop? Farsight is from the Fire Caste, born on that planet famous for its aggressive Fire Warriors. Furthermore, the more the leaders try to controll their subjects, the more their subjects will rebell.
Just look at me, my parents have tried to controll me my entire life, them both being pretty fond of their part of the scosiety. I ended up as a Skinhead. *shrug*
I was just thinking along the lines of the ant-man approach and the imperial supposition that Ethereals control the other Tau through pheromones. You can't fight against chemical control as easily as just authoritarian rule...
And if they're so aggressive, why do they have such a low leadership? Bullies?
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Post by: Gearhead
agnosto wrote:
I was just thinking along the lines of the ant-man approach and the imperial supposition that Ethereals control the other Tau through pheromones. You can't fight against chemical control as easily as just authoritarian rule...
Once you became aware of the problem you could start working on countermeasures.
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Post by: agnosto
Gearhead wrote:agnosto wrote:
I was just thinking along the lines of the ant-man approach and the imperial supposition that Ethereals control the other Tau through pheromones. You can't fight against chemical control as easily as just authoritarian rule...
Once you became aware of the problem you could start working on countermeasures.
That's a good point and it also makes me wonder how Farsight was able to break the pheromone control (assuming it exists since it was only mentioned once in the codex and was written by an imperial observer, IIRC).
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Post by: Melissia
*wanders in, looking to see if people are going to try and claim Tau are the good guys, becuase as we all know, the good guys serilize their opponents' populations so that future generations don't outnumber the Tau*
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Post by: Karon
Tau are pretty much Nazi's, but so is the Imperium (to a lesser extent)
The Ethereals are the Nazi Socialist party, the Aryans if you will. Each one of them is basically a vision of hitler.
They really do follow the belief of "We are better, we know better, and your not as good as us, join us, or die"
But really, stressing over the contradicting web that is 40k fluff, is the equivalent of yelling at a brick wall to stop being so hard.
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Post by: agnosto
Meh. It passes the time and I'm not serious about it at all. For me it's a game first and the fluff changes whenever GW wants to sell more of something so I couldn't care less.
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Post by: focusedfire
Melissia wrote:*wanders in, looking to see if people are going to try and claim Tau are the good guys, becuase as we all know, the good guys serilize their opponents' populations so that future generations don't outnumber the Tau*
The Tau know of the Imperiums propaganda campaign falsley claiming the Tau Sterilize the human survivors, but this new serilize campain is a mystery to them.
Now for the logical argument to an illogical claim.
1)The Tau are a small Empire with limited resources and sterilizing the vast numbers of captured humans would be a vast commitment of resources with nothing to be gained.
2)If the humans were kept as prisoners or forced labour as the Imperium also claims, the Tau would not have the resources to defend there space because every avaiable FW would be on Gaurd duty.
3)If the Tau were to be engaging in the practices that the Imperium claims then there would be no humans left in their empire 300 years later, but there are. The human populations are thriving across many worlds within the Tau's Empire
4)If the Tau wanted the Humans gone, they would do as the Imperium does and slaughter every man, woman, and child. 
There is no logic to support the Imperiums wild accusations.
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Post by: Retribution
focusedfire wrote:Retribution wrote:The Tau aren't space Commies or space Nazi's, please go look into what those ideologies actually stand for
I have, I even looked into them before the current revisionist histories and definitions diluted and obscured their meanings.
(This is the older 1921 version)
Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
(The newer version)
Fascism:A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
Do you note the subtle shift of emphasis from attempting to scientifically define the characteristics to a judgemental statement. The first definition allows or the individual to recognize Fascist traits without an inexorable connection to dictatorship, while the second emphatically states that this systems primary trait is a dictatorial leader.
(The older one from aroun 1840)
communism : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed.
(The newer revised version)
A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.
Communism
This one the revisions are much easier to see but what is funny is that the initial concept of a classless scociety is missing from both.
I didn't post the Leninist defintions because they focus on only one type of communism rather than on the base concept.
Hmm, I've read the communist manifesto (Marx is a horrible writer) and I found the elimination of classes to be one of the pillars of communism, and now it's not even recognized 
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Post by: 4M2A
I really think this sterilisation issue has been covered to death. Why do people keep bringing it up when it isn't official, and doesn't really make sense either as Focusedfire pointed out. Hypothetically if they did sterilise they would still be much better than the imperium who just shoot you. The Tau are very much based on logic. They are unlikely to do something like this without a very good reason.
I think the control that ethereals have is a lot more subtle than it sometimes suggests. It does say they can give an order and other Tau have to follow it but I doubt thats used very often. I see it as more likely the pheremones are used to improve cooperation between Tau. Otherwise all the Tau would be very similar ( the opposite of the idea of adpating that is a key to there philosophy ) and Farsight would never have broken off.
Also where are you getting the idea that Tau view themselves as superior. It specifically says (in the codex I believe) that Tau commanders Value Vespidss very highly as they complement the Tau style.
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Post by: Retribution
Isn't Dawn of War the only place where sterilization has been mentioned?
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Post by: agnosto
Retribution wrote:Isn't Dawn of War the only place where sterilization has been mentioned?
Yeah. Some people can't separate a licensed, non- GW video game from official fluff.
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Post by: 1hadhq
agnosto wrote:Retribution wrote:Isn't Dawn of War the only place where sterilization has been mentioned?
Yeah. Some people can't separate a licensed, non- GW video game from official fluff.
But "licensed" beats "fanmade"...
Lots of 40k copyrighted stuff in those "licensed" things...
soo Non- GW, really?
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Post by: Retribution
I love DoW, but there's no way i would consider it canon :]
And i believe he means "not made by"-GW
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Post by: agnosto
1hadhq wrote:agnosto wrote:Retribution wrote:Isn't Dawn of War the only place where sterilization has been mentioned?
Yeah. Some people can't separate a licensed, non- GW video game from official fluff.
But "licensed" beats "fanmade"...
Lots of 40k copyrighted stuff in those "licensed" things...
soo Non- GW, really?
Unless they made a video game division recently that I didn't hear about...
When you license a product, depending upon the agreement, the licensee has a great deal of latitude in usage. You're buying rights to using the name and general concept of the IP, there's no requirement to follow the designer's product strictly. Take a look at movies made from video games or books as examples.
The only difference between licensed and fan-made is the supposed quality of the product. I've read some fan fiction in the past that matches or exceeds a professional writer's...
In any event, the sterilization comment that people try to pass off as canon is taken out of context. As someone previously stated in this thread, the narrator is assumably human and casts a dark light on all the races end-game scenarios except for the imperial ones. Imperial propoganda doesn't make it true either and such a statement doesn't match with the designer's notes (also previously posted).
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Post by: Wyvern
There is nothing inherently evil or wrong with the communist ideals. A whole society working together as equals for the advancement of the whole rather than the individual? Its a very good idea. In theory.
The problem arises in the execution of these ideals, and the mediation of the collective. Stalin's communist Russia was run by a collection of corrupt men, looking to exploit the lower classes, and using 'communism' as a way to keep them blind to what was really going on.
Its also troublesome to get people to accept that some people have to be the low down workers, even if everyone is treated the same, some people have to do the grunt work, while others live in luxury.
In the fluff, the Tau dont have this problem. This ideaology is so deeply ingrained in their psyche that they accept their place, and strive to perfect their work in whatever caste they are born (placed?) into.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Retribution wrote:I love DoW, but there's no way i would consider it canon :]
And i believe he means "not made by"-GW
All of their publications are printed anywhere else ( mostly china ), so do we consider them too as non- GW?
IMO, canon could be : the codices, rulebooks, expansions and (personal choice incoming..) subcompanys work ( FW, BL ).
To Completley ignore the obviously licensed computergames,
( as GW shouldn't just start their own company when experienced teams are available )
even when those games added a weapon to a tabletop army whose name begins with "T"...?
I believe the software is a possible source, maybe not as solid as others, but IIRC GW's fluff-controller was working with the
software-company so this product may present a possible outcome.
Eldar farseers treat possible futures with care, but won't ignore what they dislike.
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Post by: Riffzor
Wyvern that's a matter of opinion.
If some people think that 'Fine, the State is all that matters, my individual wealth is nothing compared to the wealth of my people', then that's up to them.
I, however, am one of those that in first hand cares about myself, my family and my friends. Secondly about my scosiety on a local level, my town/county. Thirdly about the nation as a whole, to contribute with whatever there is left for me to do.
That is my opinion, and I find any kinds of Dictatureships, political or religious, to be 'evil' and 'wrong'.
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Post by: Retribution
1hadhq wrote:Retribution wrote:I love DoW, but there's no way i would consider it canon :]
And i believe he means "not made by"-GW
All of their publications are printed anywhere else ( mostly china ), so do we consider them too as non- GW?
IMO, canon could be : the codices, rulebooks, expansions and (personal choice incoming..) subcompanys work ( FW, BL ).
To Completley ignore the obviously licensed computergames,
( as GW shouldn't just start their own company when experienced teams are available )
even when those games added a weapon to a tabletop army whose name begins with "T"...?
I believe the software is a possible source, maybe not as solid as others, but IIRC GW's fluff-controller was working with the
software-company so this product may present a possible outcome.
Eldar farseers treat possible futures with care, but won't ignore what they dislike.
Dawn of War is as fluffy as anything made by Goto
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Post by: agnosto
Wyvern wrote:There is nothing inherently evil or wrong with the communist ideals. A whole society working together as equals for the advancement of the whole rather than the individual? Its a very good idea. In theory.
The problem arises in the execution of these ideals, and the mediation of the collective. Stalin's communist Russia was run by a collection of corrupt men, looking to exploit the lower classes, and using 'communism' as a way to keep them blind to what was really going on.
Its also troublesome to get people to accept that some people have to be the low down workers, even if everyone is treated the same, some people have to do the grunt work, while others live in luxury.
In the fluff, the Tau dont have this problem. This ideaology is so deeply ingrained in their psyche that they accept their place, and strive to perfect their work in whatever caste they are born (placed?) into.
An interesting take on the discussion; thanks for contributing.
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Post by: Melissia
Personally, I consider Dark Heresy (from Fantasy Flight Games) to be far more canon than most BL books. Andy Hoare and Dan Abnett are attributed as writers in it anyway...
Regardless, Tau are not good guys, if only because there ARE no good guys in 40k. Just some that are slightly less evil.
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Post by: Retribution
I don't think anyone tries to make them out to be the good guys, but, at least in my opinion, they're by far the least evil in 40k
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Post by: Riffzor
How does one meassure evil?
I wouldn't call Orks or 'Nids 'evil', they follow their instinct.
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Post by: 1hadhq
agnosto wrote:
When you license a product, depending upon the agreement, the licensee has a great deal of latitude in usage. You're buying rights to using the name and general concept of the IP, there's no requirement to follow the designer's product strictly. Take a look at movies made from video games or books as examples.
I'M pretty sure a lot of authors placed strict requirements into any license they gave.
agnosto wrote:
In any event, the sterilization comment that people try to pass off as canon is taken out of context. As someone previously stated in this thread, the narrator is assumably human and casts a dark light on all the races end-game scenarios except for the imperial ones. Imperial propoganda doesn't make it true either and such a statement doesn't match with the designer's notes (also previously posted).
90% of the background claimed as wrong in one stroke.
A human POV is the standard of 40k and almost everyone uses a Human POV in his work read by Humans.
Maybe a end-game scenario where the narrator's faction lost isn't meant to paint the victors in bright colors?
If chaos wins and sacrifice the whole population its ok but if Tau win and deplete the population "peacefully" this is imperial propaganda?
What is the obsession with these "designers notes", because nobody except Tau uses such in their respective fluff threads?
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Same as Tau.
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Post by: eNvY
Melissia wrote:*wanders in, looking to see if people are going to try and claim Tau are the good guys, becuase as we all know, the good guys serilize their opponents' populations so that future generations don't outnumber the Tau*
You do realize that was something merely speculated at by an Imperial Citizen following a Tau victory over right? A completely biased, xenos hating imperial citizen speculated this. In a video game, not created by GW. In a game with multiple alternate endings, meaning none of them actually happened.
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Post by: Retribution
Even if we're taking Dawn of War as canon, the Tau ending isn't considered canonical in the series, meaning the whole sterilization thing never happened anyway
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Post by: focusedfire
Melissia wrote:Regardless, Tau are not good guys, if only because there ARE no good guys in 40k. Just some that are slightly less evil.
This echos exactly what I was saying earlier and is probably the first thing you and I have agreed upon.
Retribution wrote:Hmm, I've read the communist manifesto (Marx is a horrible writer) and I found the elimination of classes to be one of the pillars of communism, and now it's not even recognized
You will find that it is because of how language has been editied on the definitional level by various special interest groups that pressure the publishers. This is why you will find me pushing the original meanings of words during debates on politics.
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Post by: agnosto
1hadhq wrote:
I'M pretty sure a lot of authors placed strict requirements into any license they gave.
There's no telling; it depends upon the licensing agreement they draft. Licenses run the full gambit from total control to complete laxity depending on what the agreement is.
1hadhq wrote:
90% of the background claimed as wrong in one stroke.
A human POV is the standard of 40k and almost everyone uses a Human POV in his work read by Humans.
Maybe a end-game scenario where the narrator's faction lost isn't meant to paint the victors in bright colors?
If chaos wins and sacrifice the whole population its ok but if Tau win and deplete the population "peacefully" this is imperial propaganda?
That was kinda my point. The Tau codex has communications within the human empire about the Tau so it just stands to reason the prejudice would carry over to anything else.
1hadhq wrote:What is the obsession with these "designers notes", because nobody except Tau uses such in their respective fluff threads?
How else are you going to understand the reasoning behind their creation? You ask the person/people that made it. Like the Dark Eldar, there's very little fluff so that's what we have to go by. A better question would be, why wouldn't you listen to the people that designed it?
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Post by: Gearhead
Wyvern wrote:There is nothing inherently evil or wrong with the communist ideals. A whole society working together as equals for the advancement of the whole rather than the individual? Its a very good idea. In theory.
The problem arises in the execution of these ideals, and the mediation of the collective. Stalin's communist Russia was run by a collection of corrupt men, looking to exploit the lower classes, and using 'communism' as a way to keep them blind to what was really going on.
Its also troublesome to get people to accept that some people have to be the low down workers, even if everyone is treated the same, some people have to do the grunt work, while others live in luxury.
In the fluff, the Tau dont have this problem. This ideaology is so deeply ingrained in their psyche that they accept their place, and strive to perfect their work in whatever caste they are born (placed?) into.
Well said. I've always thought that communism is a nice fairyland ideal, but is completely impossible in real life. Sure, it'd be nice if everyone thought more about each other and all, but once you added in the human element, it all goes straight to hell. Communism is completely at odds with human nature, but apparently the Greater Good is a bit more in line with Tau nature- even though it's a relatively recent development, something about them helps make it work.
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Post by: Melissia
Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
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Post by: agnosto
Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
You know you want to join the greater good; here, smell my armpit.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
People throw around term like communist and fascist to vilify things they don't like without knowing what they really mean. The Tau are the complete opposite of communists. Not having a caste system is the core tenet of communism.
Tau are an Aristocracy.
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Post by: Retribution
Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
As opposed to being slaves of the god emperor
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Post by: agnosto
Retribution wrote:Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
As opposed to being slaves of the god emperor
How many psykers are sacrificed to the emperor each day?
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Post by: focusedfire
Retribution wrote:Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
As opposed to being slaves of the Rotting Cyborg Zombie God
Fixed it for you
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Post by: agnosto
focusedfire wrote:Retribution wrote:Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
As opposed to being slaves of the Rotting Cyborg Zombie God
Fixed it for you
Here he is!
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Post by: 4M2A
I don't know if it's because people relate to humans but compared to the imperium Tau are saints. How can you see tham as equally evil to a group that want to exterminate everything else.
Also Tau aren't communist but they do share some similarites however as mentioned earlier this isn't a bad thing. So far in our history communism has failed. For the Tau it has worked perfectly. There are no wars, evryone has a good standard of life, and they are constantly advancing.
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Post by: Retribution
focusedfire wrote:Retribution wrote:Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
As opposed to being slaves of the Rotting Cyborg Zombie God
Fixed it for you
Haha, much better
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Post by: Retribution
focusedfire wrote:Retribution wrote:Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
As opposed to being slaves of the Rotting Cyborg Zombie God
Fixed it for you
Haha, much better
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Post by: 1hadhq
agnosto wrote:
1hadhq wrote:What is the obsession with these "designers notes", because nobody except Tau uses such in their respective fluff threads?
How else are you going to understand the reasoning behind their creation? You ask the person/people that made it. Like the Dark Eldar, there's very little fluff so that's what we have to go by. A better question would be, why wouldn't you listen to the people that designed it?
Why wouldn't I read the published codex instead of some scribblings written and maybe dismissed?
Why should I accept a WD interview as canon?
I know you're running dry on fluff.
Did any other faction of 40k ever use "designers notes" in a background thread?
IIRC = NO
Why should others not use their "intended" design as argument ?
Aren't they creative enough to dig out some "designers notes" ?
Maybe design could change if the author of the codex changes?
You know we got wolves on wolves now.....
Guard with skimmers ....
As "intended" could be fine if there was just 1 codex ever.
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Post by: focusedfire
@1hadhq- your forgetting about the Necrons, Not a lot of solid fluff but of the fluff thats out there a lot of it is contridictory. People bring up their original design concepts when trying to figure out where they are going next.
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Post by: 1hadhq
focusedfire wrote:@1hadhq- your forgetting about the Necrons, Not a lot of solid fluff but of the fluff thats out there a lot of it is contridictory. People bring up their original design concepts when trying to figure out where they are going next.
 Contradictonary?
Necrons got a fine codex if youre interested in fluff. I doubt they will keep it.
Necrons will rise and counter the incoming tyranids.
Maybe cut down some sept worlds on their way, just accidentally , too. If the IG or SM doesn't stop them.
Necrons also do not contradict fluff of other codices, but Tau do.
Would call necron fluff rather solid.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
The Necron codex is by far the best Fluff-wise.
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Post by: focusedfire
Two to three different origin stories of how the Necrons came to be would argue other-wise. How was their war started against the old ones? When did it end? What part did the Eldar play in this war? Was the webway closed off to keep the Necrons out or Slanesh? Do they have free will or not?
Different(contradictory) answers to these depending upon the book your reading.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
focusedfire wrote:Two to three different origin stories of how the Necrons came to be would argue other-wise. How was their war started against the old ones? When did it end? What part did the Eldar play in this war? Was the webway closed off to keep the Necrons out or Slanesh? Do they have free will or not?
Different(contradictory) answers to these depending upon the book your reading.
The Necrontyr were conscripted/tricked into starting a war with the Old Ones by the Star gods. It ended when they won. The Eldar were created by the Old Ones just like Orks, Humans and Jokiree (sp?) and possibly others. The webway is simply a transportation tech. They do not have free will. Necron lords may have had free will but it has since rotted away into madness. How much sentience your necron lord has is up to you the player. Anything else?
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Post by: 1hadhq
focusedfire wrote:Two to three different origin stories of how the Necrons came to be would argue other-wise. How was their war started against the old ones? When did it end? What part did the Eldar play in this war? Was the webway closed off to keep the Necrons out or Slanesh? Do they have free will or not?
Different(contradictory) answers to these depending upon the book your reading.
Different, no. 1 codex, one story.
Any fluff released after codex necrons agrees with codex necrons.
Fluff in C'tan-free codices agrees also with codex necrons.
If you got questions, why not read this codex for yourself?
Would offer mine, but maybe you're better off if its written in english.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Most Codexes have a lot of unanswered questions to get your imagination going. Codex Necrons straight up tells you the history of the 40k Universe over the last 60 milion years. My favorite codex. Pretty much answered all my questions.
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Post by: Gearhead
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Necrontyr were conscripted/tricked into starting a war with the Old Ones by the Star gods.
Actually it was the other way 'round. The Necrontyr discovered the C'Tan only after the Old Ones whooped their bums 6 ways 'til Sunday and relegated them to a tiny corner of the galaxy to sulk. Then after someone thought it'd be a brilliant idea to attract the attention of the Nightbringer, they managed to get him to stop slaughtering them for a minute and help them with an old grudge or two.
Gotta agree with you on Codex: Necrons. That's a really fun read!
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Post by: focusedfire
@1hadhq- I have copies of all codice and there are fluff blurbs that contradict.
It is like Kamicanuk's statement about how the war started. One of the books that I have says that they started the war prior to discovery of the star vampires/gods. That was because they were created where solar radiation killed them.
differing stories from differing codices
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Post by: Melissia
Retribution wrote:Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
As opposed to being slaves of the god emperor
Most humans are not "slaves" in the strictest definition of the term. There are some worlds where the population pretty much IS enslaved, but those are not the norm. Most humans are poor, living in poor conditions with gakky jobs, and turn to religion to uplift their spirits, and/or crime to fill their pockets. But that's not too much different from the real world, now is it?
Mind you, I don't claim the Imperium is necessarily good, either... they're just the ones I sympathize most with.
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Post by: Wyvern
KamikazeCanuck wrote:People throw around term like communist and fascist to vilify things they don't like without knowing what they really mean. The Tau are the complete opposite of communists. Not having a caste system is the core tenet of communism.
Tau are an Aristocracy.
You have a point that the Tau arent quite the definition of a Communist culture, but what do you expect from an alien race?
However, since one caste is not viewed as superior to another (at least not by the Tau) they are not an Aristocracy either. If anything they are more akin to a hippie commune! Only with guns. And giant armoured suits. And bird-man friends.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Gearhead wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:
The Necrontyr were conscripted/tricked into starting a war with the Old Ones by the Star gods.
Actually it was the other way 'round. The Necrontyr discovered the C'Tan only after the Old Ones whooped their bums 6 ways 'til Sunday and relegated them to a tiny corner of the galaxy to sulk. Then after someone thought it'd be a brilliant idea to attract the attention of the Nightbringer, they managed to get him to stop slaughtering them for a minute and help them with an old grudge or two.
Gotta agree with you on Codex: Necrons. That's a really fun read!
focusedfire wrote:@1hadhq- I have copies of all codice and there are fluff blurbs that contradict.
It is like Kamicanuk's statement about how the war started. One of the books that I have says that they started the war prior to discovery of the star vampires/gods. That iw was because they were created where solar radiation killed them.
differing stories from differing codices
I misremembered. Gearhead is right. The Necrontyr fought the Old Ones and it didn't go so well, so they asked the Star Gods for help. The Star gods did trick the Necrontyr into becoming the Necrons though. They lived short miserable lives and the Star gods said they could give them immortality. They forgot to mention it was as mindless automotons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wyvern wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:People throw around term like communist and fascist to vilify things they don't like without knowing what they really mean. The Tau are the complete opposite of communists. Not having a caste system is the core tenet of communism.
Tau are an Aristocracy.
You have a point that the Tau arent quite the definition of a Communist culture, but what do you expect from an alien race?
However, since one caste is not viewed as superior to another (at least not by the Tau) they are not an Aristocracy either. If anything they are more akin to a hippie commune! Only with guns. And giant armoured suits. And bird-man friends.
The Celestial Caste is definately superior to the others.
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Post by: Wyvern
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyvern wrote:KamikazeCanuck wrote:People throw around term like communist and fascist to vilify things they don't like without knowing what they really mean. The Tau are the complete opposite of communists. Not having a caste system is the core tenet of communism.
Tau are an Aristocracy.
You have a point that the Tau arent quite the definition of a Communist culture, but what do you expect from an alien race?
However, since one caste is not viewed as superior to another (at least not by the Tau) they are not an Aristocracy either. If anything they are more akin to a hippie commune! Only with guns. And giant armoured suits. And bird-man friends.
The Celestial Caste is definately superior to the others.
Again, good point. But the 4 main casts are seen as equal, I believe.
Basically, they are going to have entirely different psychological and cultural makeup to us, so whatever we try to extrapolate about their culture wont necessarily make perfect sense from a human perspective.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Melissia wrote:Retribution wrote:Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
As opposed to being slaves of the god emperor
Most humans are not "slaves" in the strictest definition of the term. There are some worlds where the population pretty much IS enslaved, but those are not the norm. Most humans are poor, living in poor conditions with gakky jobs, and turn to religion to uplift their spirits, and/or crime to fill their pockets. But that's not too much different from the real world, now is it?
Mind you, I don't claim the Imperium is necessarily good, either... they're just the ones I sympathize most with.
Yes, every world has a different goverment. Some are brutal Fascist states. Some are Communist Utopias. Some are Democracies, Oligarcies, Theocracies. Any type of 'cracy you can think of. As long as you pay your taxes (tithes) the Imperium cares little of what happens on your world.
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Post by: Melissia
Wyvern wrote:Again, good point. But the 4 main casts are seen as equal, I believe.
Yes they are all equal.
They are all slaves to the Ethereal Caste
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Melissia wrote:Wyvern wrote:Again, good point. But the 4 main casts are seen as equal, I believe.
Yes they are all equal.
They are all slaves to the Ethereal Caste
Equal slaves that kill for the greater good. Doesn't the greter good remind you of something? The Imperial truth perhaps? That's the point of the Tau: they're young and hopeful. Give 'em a million worlds and 40,000 years and they'll have all the same problems as the Imperium. Running a galaxy ain't easy; just ask the Eldar.
29408
Post by: Melissia
It's a pity the Imperial Truth isn't believed in anymore isn't it?
28848
Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Melissia wrote:It's a pity the Imperial Truth isn't believed in anymore isn't it?
Don't worry: religon fixes everything!
29272
Post by: Riffzor
I've always liked the Necrons' Codex due to its aboundance of pre-everything fluff, imo it forms the 'foundation' on which the Universe then evolved, with the Old Ones gone and the Eldar becomming the 'masters' until... well I don't know for sure what happened to them. Something about Slaanesh and something about a ton of them just dropping dead suddenly. *shrug*
The only reason I don't want to continue on my Necron army is because of the lack of vehicles, Monolith in all glory but I want APC's and such.
As for the four Tau Castes, I believe the Etherals see them all as important bitz for their schemes, but the Fire Caste seems to me to think themselves to be better than the others due to their size and power, which has been there since the Tau evulotion began more or less.
I've atleast decided that I'll write my own Fluff for my own army, based on the Tau fluff there is in the codex. To me there's no doubt about the Tau's great technology, I find the Devilfishes to be the nr. 1 most awsome APC's there are, and their weapons really make it easier to kill MEQ's compared to the IG's lasguns and other such weapons.
So basicly, I don't care for what the Etherals are uptoes with those following them, I'll pull a Farsight and abandon the Greater Good on my own crusade to slay all that gets in my way!
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
focusedfire wrote:Nazi Germany had non-aryans that were included as a part of the nation as a whole and these individuals participated of there own free will, while knowing the long term goal was to breed out their "mongrel traits". These Non-Aryans were often honored for their contributions to the Fatherland.
Are you talking about the 100.000s of prisoners of war, that were forced to slave labour in Germany?
Are you talking about the jews in the concentration camps that were forced to dig the graves for their fellow prisoners?
Are you deliberately being offensive or are you just uninformed?
focusedfire wrote:I have, I even looked into them before the current revisionist histories and definitions diluted and obscured their meanings.
Have you ever thought about the fact that there were no communist states in 1840?
Have you ever thought that there were no fascist states in 1921?
Have you ever thought that the existence of states run by that ideology might be a good reason to update these definitions?
focusedfire wrote:^Your right, but it is fun to speculate.
To me (and all victims of said regimes) this form of false historical statements is offensive and no fun.
Melissia wrote:*wanders in, looking to see if people are going to try and claim Tau are the good guys, becuase as we all know, the good guys serilize their opponents' populations so that future generations don't outnumber the Tau*
*wanders in and sees another one who doesn't check statements already proven false (or spreads false statements just for the fun of flaming)*
Karon wrote:Tau are pretty much Nazi's, but so is the Imperium (to a lesser extent)
The Ethereals are the Nazi Socialist party, the Aryans if you will. Each one of them is basically a vision of hitler.
They really do follow the belief of "We are better, we know better, and your not as good as us, join us, or die"
These three lines are so full of errors, that I don't know where to start. Deserves a doublefacepalm.
Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
Before the ethereals arrived, the Tau races were busy in a free and happy bloodshed among themselves. The ethereals stopped this constitutional right to mass murder your fellow citizens and brought peace. How utterly cruel! How Hitleresque! How oppressive! Who will free the Tau races to have a happy massacre again?
1hadhq wrote:Why wouldn't I read the published codex instead of some scribblings written and maybe dismissed?
Why should I accept a WD interview as canon?
Yes, please read the two Codices, please read the BFG background texts on Tau, please read the novel "For the Emperor". Then it is easy for you to see that most statements in this thread have absolutely no basis in official fluff and are actually the exact opposite of it. The designer notes just bring this to the point.
4M2A wrote:How can you see tham as equally evil to a group that want to exterminate everything else.
Also Tau aren't communist but they do share some similarites however as mentioned earlier this isn't a bad thing. So far in our history communism has failed. For the Tau it has worked perfectly. There are no wars, evryone has a good standard of life, and they are constantly advancing.
Did you notice that noone claiming those Nazi/communist/sterilization things is interested in providing evidence for their claims? Or even comment on obvious counter examples and counter arguments? It is not meant as a rational statement on the Tau background, it is just an emotional response of hate to the Tau not being another "aaargh ... must kill everything in sight" army with a grimdark design full of skulls. People hate them for being different, and everything hated is called Nazis or communists, depending on where you come from.
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Post by: TheBlackVanguard
Brother SRM wrote:I think it's best not to look into the politics of 40k too much. Pretty much everyone has wretched ideals, and there is nowhere in the universe I would want to live. To be honest, the only folks who are happy in the 41st millennium are the Orks!
Not true bloodletters are happy when they're bloodletting and then Khorne is happy when they're bloodletting. So there's two people happy.
Nurgle is happy when people are sick.
Slaanesh lives on being happy.....kind of.
and Tzeentch.....well nevermind 3/4 isn't bad is it?
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Riffzor wrote:I've always liked the Necrons' Codex due to its aboundance of pre-everything fluff, imo it forms the 'foundation' on which the Universe then evolved, with the Old Ones gone and the Eldar becomming the 'masters' until... well I don't know for sure what happened to them. Something about Slaanesh and something about a ton of them just dropping dead suddenly. *shrug*
quote]
Took me a while to figure it out but the eldar of The Fall are actually: Dark Eldar! Yes, the super-evil more evil than evil race. People often forget the craftworld eldar are actually just long-haul truckers. Yes, that's right they're hicks. The most beautiful, elegant hicks ever but still just a bunch o truckers.
People think of the Dark kin as some weird off-shoot that went crazy. in fact they are the true eldar!! If you've read their codex you can see how an entire galaxy of people practising their brand of super-evil (which is so evil that the other three chaos gods at the time were like "man those guys are evil"!) mixed with their very warp attuned souls created a new god and actually swallowed a part of the Galaxy (The eye of terror). Craftworld Eldar are the offshoot.
In fact I believe Commorragh to be the capital of the Ancient Eldar Empire.
Well Commorragh is in the webway apparently so maybe not. But you get the point.
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Post by: Riffzor
Kroothawk I cannot immagine what it would be like to be a citizen of a Communist/Nazist state, I can only read in the history books and see what either of those are. Sweden may not be communistic yet, but we're well on our way thanks to lies and deciet from our politicians and that makes me feel severe hatred towards anything leaning towards communism.
You have to agree that the Tau with their Etherals in several aspects have some resemblance to the ideologies, and in lack of a better word I understand very well why people would call them Commies or Nazi's (although I'd say they're more like commies.)
And look at the world history, we too fought one another for land and wealth, we still do at times. Karl Marx, Adolf Hitler, Stalin and Lenin were just Etheral failures that instead of creating peace and wealth, created war and poverty.
Sure, Communism could work if everyone would agree to it. So would Anarchy, if everyone had the individual morale for it. And National Scosialism could have worked in one aspect, although only for those selected few that would be accepted by the state, the others would be no more.
I'm sorry if I'm being blunt, but as some have stated earlier, this is not a political discussion, this is about the Tau and there aren't any words for it, so we draw examples from simular ideologies. Take what you read with a pinch of salt, this is in no way intended to start a flaming discussion to insult anyone. Automatically Appended Next Post: KamikazeCanuck wrote:Riffzor wrote:I've always liked the Necrons' Codex due to its aboundance of pre-everything fluff, imo it forms the 'foundation' on which the Universe then evolved, with the Old Ones gone and the Eldar becomming the 'masters' until... well I don't know for sure what happened to them. Something about Slaanesh and something about a ton of them just dropping dead suddenly. *shrug*
Took me a while to figure it out but the eldar of The Fall are actually: Dark Eldar! Yes, the super-evil more evil than evil race. People often forget the craftworld eldar are actually just long-haul truckers. Yes, that's right they're hicks. The most beautiful, elegant hicks ever but still just a bunch o truckers.
People think of the Dark kin as some weird off-shoot that went crazy. in fact they are the true eldar!! If you've read their codex you can see how an entire galaxy of people practising their brand of super-evil (which is so evil that the other three chaos gods at the time were like "man those guys are evil"!) mixed with their very warp attuned souls created a new god and actually swallowed a part of the Galaxy (The eye of terror). Craftworld Eldar are the offshoot.
In fact I believe Commorragh to be the capital of the Ancient Eldar Empire.
Well Commorragh is in the webway apparently so maybe not. But you get the point.
I guess I'll have to read the Eldar and Dark Eldar codices' fluff then. =P
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Post by: Kroothawk
Riffzor wrote:Kroothawk I cannot immagine what it would be like to be a citizen of a Communist/Nazist state, I can only read in the history books and see what either of those are. Sweden may not be communistic yet, but we're well on our way thanks to lies and deciet from our politicians and that makes me feel severe hatred towards anything leaning towards communism.
You have to agree that the Tau with their Etherals in several aspects have some resemblance to the ideologies, and in lack of a better word I understand very well why people would call them Commies or Nazi's (although I'd say they're more like commies.)
Actually I don't agree, as I know the background of the Tau too well (and the history of fascist and communist states). I was drawn back to 40k BECAUSE the Tau are a rational, peace loving, life valueing and non-subjugating race inspired by several Asian societies.
And you probably have no idea how lucky Sweden is to have a deep social democratic tradition since the 1930s that lead to one of the best social infrastructures in the world.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Kroothawk wrote:Riffzor wrote:Kroothawk I cannot immagine what it would be like to be a citizen of a Communist/Nazist state, I can only read in the history books and see what either of those are. Sweden may not be communistic yet, but we're well on our way thanks to lies and deciet from our politicians and that makes me feel severe hatred towards anything leaning towards communism.
You have to agree that the Tau with their Etherals in several aspects have some resemblance to the ideologies, and in lack of a better word I understand very well why people would call them Commies or Nazi's (although I'd say they're more like commies.)
Actually I don't agree, as I know the background of the Tau too well (and the history of fascist and communist states). I was drawn back to 40k BECAUSE the Tau are a rational, peace loving, life valueing and non-subjugating race inspired by several Asian societies.
And you probably have no idea how lucky Sweden is to have a deep social democratic tradition since the 1930s that lead to one of the best social infrastructures in the world.
Agreed. Scandinavia is envied all around the world for its social polices and quality of life. But it's like Canada. All the people who have the worst things to say about Canada are Canadian. Don't forget Riffzor, the grass is always greener on the other side.
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Post by: Riffzor
Well now you're stepping into a subject in which I'm certain that I know more of than you.
Sweden may look very good from the outside, and yes I know that those who live in Stockholm, Gothenburg, Malmer and other large cities have it pretty well compared to many other European and even American cities, but that's just fragments of our population.
Our socialistic state have been throwing rocks on just about all those living north of Dalarna, puting in ethnic laws in favor of the Lapis immigrants blindly, forcing swedes to move and sell their land to the goverment to then be given freely to others. Sure, we didn't get sent to death camps, but we had to leave our family properties behind to see another ethnic group get them, just like the jews in Germany.
And now you see how easy it is to accidently insult someone when discussing politics, so let's stop doing that and get back to the topic.
Edit: Oh, and don't forget. Nothing is free. We actually pay sky-high taxes to keep what we have.
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Post by: Kroothawk
I guess with Lapis you mean "Samerna", the indigenous population of Sweden, that got some land back that was taken from them, which is not comparable to the Holocaust IMHO. And I once had a summer language course near Östersund and later applied for a job in Jokkmokk (a small village with an impressive infrastructure and its own official website), so I am not totally ignrorant of Northern Sweden. And BTW the high taxes led to one of the least differences between rich and poor in the world.
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Post by: Riffzor
Alright... Let's see if I can do this without swearing and flaming...
The Swedes have populated the entire area of Sweden since the bloody viking age, we've got settlements up there that are from the 11th century. The Lapis (Yes in swedish they're called 'Samer' but I won't use that word for the same reason I don't call eskimoes for inuites) came to Sweden much, much later, and yes some parts in the uttermost north weren't populated simply because the conditions were too harsh at the time. Jokkmokk is up there, but the Lapis' territory streatches down to Dalälven, they've got 30-40% of the Swedish land for themselves by law, and they are an immigrant minority, and a very whiny such.
Now I do not want to listen to some german 'I-know-it-all-I've-been-abused' trying to make an argument about a subject in which he clearly has no ****ing knowledge of whatsoever, get back on the bloody topic!
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Post by: Necroman
Discussion about Sweden is off-topic and probably is not going to end up good. My own personal experience is much different from Riffzor's; In our USA, we can barely stand tax increases in anything, as any tax increases are "On the road to Communism". In my home state of Colorado, our schools are barely funded, simply because no one is willing to pay taxes for something that doesn't benefit them immediately (And even then, I keep spotting potholes). But does that mean our system doesn't have advantages? No. It's an issue with more than one side, and one suited to a topic where both sides can be explained fully.
Melissia wrote:Probably has something to do the fact that they're enslaved to their leaders by a chemical and biological means.
Kinda like a milder version of the Eversor Assassins, except without the ridiculously awesome skull heads.
4M2A wrote:I don't know if it's because people relate to humans but compared to the imperium Tau are saints. How can you see tham as equally evil to a group that want to exterminate everything else.
Just like the Tau, the Imperium is not a standardized thing. Look at "For the Emperor;" Ciaphas Cain, Kirsten, and Inquisitor Veil were all willing to fraternize with xenos if it meant a better result for everyone. The Tau showed characteristics just like the humans; they were intolerant, overreacted, blamed everything on the other side, etc. Hell, at one point, they turned an internal issue involving an insurgency into a fullscale war.
The Tau are not saintly, they are not demonic. They're just... Different, I guess. Their system has both benefits and problems, just like the Imperium's (Exterminatus, religious fanaticism, the sacrifice of bajillions of guardsmen, etc.). in the case of the Tau, the problems are a lack of power, a general ignorance about the warp's dangers, species based caste systems, and mind control.
Melissia wrote:Wyvern wrote:Again, good point. But the 4 main casts are seen as equal, I believe.
Yes they are all equal.
They are all slaves to the Ethereal Caste
Not so much slaves to the Ehtereal Caste as to doctrine with a bit of egging on by phermones. You've read "For the Emperor," yes? The Tau in that book are devoted even when there is no mention of an Ethereal, and the humans (Who have problably never even met an Ethereal) share similar fanaticism.
Also, for comparison: If you are a human and not a member of the Imperium, you join them or die. If you are a human and not a member of the Tau? You join them or die.
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Post by: Melissia
Kroothawk wrote:Before the ethereals arrived, the Tau races were busy in a free and happy bloodshed among themselves. The ethereals stopped this constitutional right to mass murder your fellow citizens and brought peace. How utterly cruel! How Hitleresque! How oppressive! Who will free the Tau races to have a happy massacre again?
That's incredibly douchey of you.
If you're trying to say Tau are bloodthirsty bastards content with killing themselves and everyone else, unless they are being mind-controlled by pheremones, that doesn't exactly shed a good light on them. Mind you, I Think they still are, they just kill or enslave other people now instead, so eh.
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Post by: Necroman
Melissia wrote:That's incredibly douchey of you.
If you're trying to say Tau are bloodthirsty bastards content with killing themselves and everyone else, unless they are being mind-controlled by pheremones, that doesn't exactly shed a good light on them. Mind you, I Think they still are, they just kill or enslave other people now instead, so eh.
Er, have you read Tau fluff? They typically try to use diplomacy and economic connections first before going to full out war, as such things are easier. That's why they have the Water caste. That's not saying that the Tau won't kill or enslave, but they certainly don't do it anymore to outsiders than the Imperium of Man does.
Hell, the Imperium of Man has used sterilization on a planet-wide scale and exterminatus is not exactly unheard of. That doesn't mean the Imperium of Man is inherently worse than the Tau.
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Post by: Melissia
.. which was sort of my point, yes? That they do slaughter and kill en masse. Everyone in 40k does.
For that matter, with your argument... the Tau tend to be more subversive than the Imperium, which from many standpoints is actually WORSE. After all, they're not looking to destroy your lives, but your culture, your identity, and so on... certainly that's the Imperial viewpoint on such tactics, and not one unheard of in even the modern world (read any anti-globalization rant).
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Post by: Necroman
Melissia wrote:.. which was sort of my point, yes?
The Tau tend to be more subversive than the Imperium, which from many standpoints is actually WORSE. After all, they're not looking to destroy your lives, but your culture, your identity, and so on...
So they're like the industrialized world of today? EDIT: Whoops, typed this before you edited your post. Yeah, you could say the Tau are the ultimate globalizing force in the 40k universe. Odd how aliens are more human in that way than us humans are.
And yeah, Tau are more subversive than the Imperium, but they also have a far lower body count for their size. Apples and oranges. Well, rotten apples and oranges.
27871
Post by: Shatter.proof
Man I stop reading after someone said the Tau were neo nazis. Isn't that a rule of the internet, if you compare anything to Nazis or Hitler you auto lose?
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Necroman wrote:Er, have you read Tau fluff? They typically try to use diplomacy and economic connections first before going to full out war, as such things are easier. That's why they have the Water caste. That's not saying that the Tau won't kill or enslave, but they certainly don't do it anymore to outsiders than the Imperium of Man does.
Well, she doesn't know what the Mont'au was.
BTW, please give me at least one example of Tau enslaving others and sterializing others in official background texts.
I only know that the designers say that they don't. But that doesn't seem to count.
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Post by: Necroman
Kroothawk wrote:BTW, please give me at least one example of Tau enslaving others and sterializing others in official background texts.
I only know that the designers say that they don't. But that doesn't seem to count.
Enslavement: They gave the Vespid the helms that are probably mind control devices of a sort; that's mental enslavement. The Ethereals have some sort of mind control through phermones, although it is dubious that the phermones are the main cause of Tau devotion; instead, it seems to be an almost religious doctrine.
Sterilization: I got nothin'.
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Post by: focusedfire
Kroothawk wrote:Are you talking about the 100.000s of prisoners of war, that were forced to slave labour in Germany?
Are you talking about the jews in the concentration camps that were forced to dig the graves for their fellow prisoners?
Are you deliberately being offensive or are you just uninformed?
1)Maybe I was talking about the Black Germans and other germans of non-aryan(Dark Hair & Dark Eyes) ancestry that happily contributed to an empire whose end goal was to breed out their genetic traits. Maybe I was Talking about the Vichy french who cooperated with a conqueror far more than what was expected or proper. The Vichy weren't Slaves.
2)No, you seem to be doing enough talking about them for the whole thread. We were having an adult conversation about touchy concepts set in the abstract as a means to increase understandting, without flaming the thread or drawing political trolls. Good work Geppetto, nice way to bring emotion in.
3)Are you deliberately trying to be offended and self-superior? Emotion clouds the issue and prevents understanding. The current PC knee jerk over-reaction over anything to do with the Nazi's and Hitler along with revisionist rewriting history is preventing people from being taught the leqitimate warning signs of when this type of system is gaining support. Why aren't you offended by that?
Kroothawk wrote:Have you ever thought about the fact that there were no communist states in 1840?
Have you ever thought that there were no fascist states in 1921?
Have you ever thought that the existence of states run by that ideology might be a good reason to update these definitions?
1)Have you taken time to think that we were discussing the base philosophies and how they are different from current preceptions? No, you were to busy finding a way to be offended. Marx had proposed his concept by 1840. Also, are you aware that to date there have been no communists states, only socialist ones masquerading as communist states in transition.
2)Did you know that Mussolinni, the founder of Fascism, was elected to prime minister in 1922 and that his concept of Fascism already existed? If we weny by your thought process, Nazi-ism would not have existed untill Hitler was elected Chancellor. Really, think about it.
3)Did you ever think that there is a difference between upating to include new information and rewriting the base definition. By the Current definition and what you propose, there could be a group that upholds every ideal of fascism, but because there was no clear leader they would not be able to be classified as fascists. This should cause you and everyone else whom does not wish to see such arise again grave concern.
Kroothawk wrote:To me (and all victims of said regimes) this form of false historical statements is offensive and no fun.
To me and all of the kids and grandkids of survivors of these regimes that have gotten over it, your assumed indignation gives us a headache. We didn't elect you to speak for us and on our behalf and we wish you would stop trying.
Also, if this discussion is so offensive then why are you partiicipating? Instead, if it is such a problem, hit the mod button and try to get the thread locked, if you are frightened for people to see how many governments show evidence of this type of corruption.
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Post by: Shatter.proof
@Focusedfire QFT.
29272
Post by: Riffzor
Indeed, Focusedfire.
Now I admit I may have been rough and blunt at the start of the thread, more or less directly comparing the Tau with communists/fascists, but those were the ideologies which I found them to resemble the most.
And because I bring the Tau up doesn't mean I'm unaware of the human Empire, I found that to be too obvious to make a statement about.
I'm an aryan through and through, no Nazi's have ever bothered me or my family. Worldwide people tend to believe that we swedes have been out of trouble all along, and generally the swedes don't even know what our goverment in fact have done/are doing to some of us.
It was 20 years ago the wall of Berlin fell, I have no pity for what happened that long ago to you. And when you bring up the Nazi's and make it sound as if they would have opressed you I just sigh at you, I very much doubt you're that old.. But if you are 65 years or older I'll apologize for that.
Racial/Political/Religious insults are thrown at one another all the time, sometimes in terms of words, sometimes in terms of stones. I get insulted/taunted weekly for either of those three reasons, so stop thinking you're anything special.
And it pretty much seems as if focusedfire brought down your every argument, showing that it's in fact you who would have to read up on the history if you are to engage in such discussions. However, this thread was not created for such discussion, it was to discuss the Tau and their system.
Now I suggest we stick on the topic, because atleast I have enjoyed the discussion about the fluff so far, although it's anoying when people keep poping in to whine.
23697
Post by: SwanCo
Karon wrote:Tau are pretty much Nazi's, but so is the Imperium (to a lesser extent)
The Ethereals are the Nazi Socialist party, the Aryans if you will. Each one of them is basically a vision of hitler.
They really do follow the belief of "We are better, we know better, and your not as good as us, join us, or die"
Somewhat (to a relatively small number of similarities) fascist yes, Nazis, no. The Nazis were a fascist political party, Nazi-ism (so to speak) is not an actual government type per say
Karon wrote:
But really, stressing over the contradicting web that is 40k fluff, is the equivalent of yelling at a brick wall to stop being so hard.
And once again its just a fun way to ezpress beliefs. what we think wont change it, its just kinda fun
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Post by: Riffzor
*grins at SwanCo* Exactly.. Nice to see that atleast someone got the meaning of the entire thread, we now have 6 pages in which most is off-topic. xD
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Post by: focusedfire
@Riffzor-Did you know that the GW name for Tau is not about the asian concept of balance but instead is the Greek Word/Letter for Life.
This might give a good starting place to examine their Culture. The Tau come closest to being a religious government or theocracy. Think about what greece was like at the Dawn of Rational thought.
A nation ruled by a priest class but with rational thinkers and story tellers that threatened the established system. You could pattern one of your Special Characters off of Plato or Socrates.
If that goes to far back then how about the Holy Roman Empire at the beginning of the renaissance. Maybe getting into a Maccheavelli type individual for the Tau'Aun to condemn for his attempt to pervert the concept of the Greater Good.
What gets this character into trouble is that he theorizes that following the precepts of the greater good it would be ok to kill an Aun who was endangering the people with innacurate guidance.
What do ya think? People have been pushing for me to finish writing my Fan-dex so I will Start on my Aun'shi book.
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Post by: Retribution
If anything the Tau resemble an ideal version of Plato's Republic far more than a communist or nazi state.
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Post by: Riffzor
Woah, I'm affraid I'm no good at old philosophers..
Although I like the idea, but perhaps not going as far as to killing Aun'va, but perhaps forcing him into giving a public announcement to admit that his guidance were not for their own good, nor a greater good, but for his own and his Celestial Caste's good.
I'm gonna use that as a starting point in my army's fluff, that actually fits for what I had in mind earlier.
Thank you. =)
23697
Post by: SwanCo
please please please make a toga fire warrior squad
29272
Post by: Riffzor
Hehe, nah..
1: Tau look terribly wierd, so I want to keep their armour on.
2: I'm really bad at working with Green Stuff, so the Toga's would look really strange.
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Post by: Witzkatz
Since "For the Emperor" of the Ciaphas Cain series was mentioned so often as official fluff, I think one should always look into the Last Chancers series of books. The second book deals with human-tau-relationship and shows a rather dark picture of some aspects of the Tau. However, the author of the series states in his preamble that that was exactly what he was trying to do...
...what I'm trying to say, is that even from GW and Black Library side, there is no real universal consistent information saying "Tau are good", "Tau are bad" or anything inbetween, because even the different writers have different opinions about them.
Basically, the same thing can be said about the Imperium of Man, too. Look at how nice Gaunt is to his Tanith 1st and Only...and then look at Commander Chenkov. Both are parts of the great Imperium of Man, though those examples show veeery different ways of using manpower and leadership. While the Tau Empire is smaller and therefore less diverse, I think this can apply to them, too. Some Ethereals might be egoistic bastards, some might really be in for the Greater Good. I don't think there's a definite need for all Tau or Ethereals to really have one homogenous way of thinking...they are still individuals, even if they live in rigorous, altruistic caste-systems.
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Post by: focusedfire
Riffzor wrote:Although I like the idea, but perhaps not going as far as to killing Aun'va, but perhaps forcing him into giving a public announcement to admit that his guidance were not for their own good, nor a greater good, but for his own and his Celestial Caste's good.
I'm gonna use that as a starting point in my army's fluff, that actually fits for what I had in mind earlier.
Thank you. =)
No prob, and you are welcome. Just a BTW, I didn't say Kill Aun'va(May have thought it,but didn't say it).I said to kill an Aun. This could be any Aun and as such would be using the concept of the greater good to threaten the etherals hold on the society.
SwanCo wrote:please please please make a toga fire warrior squad
LOL, Think of the movie 300 and then a Fire Warrior Shouting, "This is SA'CEAAAAA!!!!"
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Post by: Riffzor
Ah.. Good idea. Then I may actually let them kill an Etheral rather than just trying to make him admit his mistakes and false guidance. >=D
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Basically the Ethereals rule by the power of Old Spice.
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Post by: agnosto
Kilkrazy wrote:Basically the Ethereals rule by the power of Old Spice.
Aun Va is actually Patrick Harris in disguise!
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Post by: HighProphetOfDestruction
Make an army of only kroot. >.<
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Post by: Melissia
If only that was possible. I don't think the Kroot Mercs army is legal anymore.
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Post by: Riffzor
I don't like the kroot, they look like frog-men wih beaks and tendrils. =P
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Post by: Witzkatz
I just had another idea concerning the pheromone mind control that the ethereals have...
...it might just be a bit like with the Jedi! They are benevolent individuals who CAN - if they wish - make someone jump off a cliff, but usually they choose not to and work with "normal" people without subjugating them. The possibility of pheromone control might not be used on a constant basis by ethereals. It could just be that, if some stubborn Firecaste members don't see what has to be done for the greater good, the ethereals emit a short burst of pheromones that convines the firecaste guys to do what is necessary without the need for bloodshed or other, more brutal ways of getting one's way.
This is, of course, a very "nice" look on ethereals. It could be very different, but I thought I'd try and add a nice perspective on the nazi communist dictator fishheads.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Shatter.proof wrote:Man I stop reading after someone said the Tau were neo nazis. Isn't that a rule of the internet, if you compare anything to Nazis or Hitler you auto lose?
Godwin's Law!
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Post by: focusedfire
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Godwin's Law!
Godwin's Law is just an internet meme, but if you want to let it dectate your participation in conversations then thats your business but you might want to read what Mike Godwin has to say about his creation in the history section of this Wiki(I know, will provide other sources if needed) link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I am not picking on you but on the irony of how this meme is used
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Post by: Melissia
I don't buy for an instant that Ethereals are any more benevolent than the Inquisition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Right, sometimes the comparisons are actually valid.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Riffzor wrote:I don't like the kroot, they look like frog-men wih beaks and tendrils. =P
Thanks
Melissia wrote:If only that was possible. I don't think the Kroot Mercs army is legal anymore.
There is a very good fanmade 5th edition "Kodex Kroot":
http://trobarts.customer.netspace.net.au/5th_ed_kroot_mercenaries_army_list_by_kompletely_kroot_V5.85.pdf
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I don't see why you shouldn't make an entire army of Kroot in modified Tau battledress with Tau weapons and vehicles, using all the normal Tau codex points values.
Just call it a Tau experiment in a modernised Kroot mechanised force.
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Post by: Witzkatz
I think such an army would feel a bit strange, because Firewarriors are WS2 and even basic Kroot are WS4. Fluff-wise it's hard to argue why Kroot suddendly fight like toddlers when put in some light body armour.
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Post by: Melissia
Kilkrazy wrote:I don't see why you shouldn't make an entire army of Kroot in modified Tau battledress with Tau weapons and vehicles, using all the normal Tau codex points values.
Kroot have better statlines.
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Post by: agnosto
Melissia wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:I don't see why you shouldn't make an entire army of Kroot in modified Tau battledress with Tau weapons and vehicles, using all the normal Tau codex points values.
Kroot have better statlines.
QFT. Plus the Kroot codex is interesting and has some depth.
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Post by: focusedfire
Kilkrazy wrote:I don't see why you shouldn't make an entire army of Kroot in modified Tau battledress with Tau weapons and vehicles, using all the normal Tau codex points values.
Just call it a Tau experiment in a modernised Kroot mechanised force.
There is a significant part of the kroot back story that applies to any attempt to modernize the Kroot. It is where the kroot had used their ability for mimickery to copy tech from other races and had moved out of the jungle and into sprawling cities (Metropolises?). The kroot felt that it was this move and the reliance upon technology that left them to weak to defend themselves against the ork invasion into the kroot controlled systems.
After the war, the Kroot forswore the use of tech in their daily lives and moved back into the jungle to prevent an over dependence upon technology. This translated into a philosophy that allows for guns and other equipment so long as it doesn't improve basic physical characteristics.
Taking from this decision and a few other kroot excerpts it can be extrapolated that characteristics like strength, toughness, weapon skill, ballistic skill, wounds, and speed(initiative) are to be improved through their more natural process of adaptation. Their attitude towards armour is questionable but if they took any it would be very light in order to allow for their physical abilities to shine. Weapons that use natural leverage/momentum to increase strength(such as an honor blade) may be ok, but powerfists and the like are strictly not used by kroot.
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Post by: agnosto
Andy Hoare's Kroot Codex was a great read; even if it was small. Amazingly, it provided more info. on the kroot than the Tau codex does on the the Tae as a whole.
Just google, "Kroot Mercenary Codex" and you'll still find it.
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Post by: Riffzor
Aren't there any army lists for Vespids only armies? =P
Immagine that..
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Post by: agnosto
Riffzor wrote:Aren't there any army lists for Vespids only armies? =P
Immagine that..
I'd say there should be a Demiurg list but there's already a Squat fandex out there...
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Do Demiurg actually have planets though?
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Post by: agnosto
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Do Demiurg actually have planets though?
I don't think so but then there's little to no fluff. The Wiki seems to indicate that they are almost entirely ship-based.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
I think they are space based. If they're related to Squats then Tyranids ate all their planets.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Kilkrazy wrote:I don't see why you shouldn't make an entire army of Kroot in modified Tau battledress with Tau weapons and vehicles, using all the normal Tau codex points values.
Just call it a Tau experiment in a modernised Kroot mechanised force.
Would the US army lend their Abrams tanks and stealth bombers to traditional Yanomami warriors in Brazil? Even if, would it increase or decrease the chances of a victory?
Remember, Tau are much smaller than Kroot and barely fit into a Crisis Suit. The Suit uses Tau ergonomics (Tau eyes!, Kroot sensory head quills!) and language. And Kroot don't even have a written language (unless they have eaten an English teacher lately )
And even then it would be funny, when the Kroot leave their suit after each kill to eat the opponent.
agnosto wrote:Andy Hoare's Kroot Codex was a great read; even if it was small. Amazingly, it provided more info. on the kroot than the Tau codex does on the the Tae as a whole.
Just google, "Kroot Mercenary Codex" and you'll still find it.
Or look 6 posts above yours
The WD background article by McNeill ("Index Xenos: The Kroot") is included in this fan-made extension of Hoare's mercenary list.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Your making them sound like complete savages. The Kroot Sphere is one of the most advanced space vessels out there.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Melissia wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:I don't see why you shouldn't make an entire army of Kroot in modified Tau battledress with Tau weapons and vehicles, using all the normal Tau codex points values.
Kroot have better statlines.
So make the statline the same as Tau.
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Post by: Kroothawk
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Your making them sound like complete savages. The Kroot Sphere is one of the most advanced space vessels out there.
Yeah, but they didn't invent it, they ate a BigMek whose warp drive knowledge was inscribed in his genes (don't ask, this is GW science )
Apart from that, they have only feral tech up to rifles.
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Post by: focusedfire
I think there is another story concerning the kroot sphere and kroot Tech in the first Tau codex. Something about a an orc hulk crashing on Pech and the kroot copying it in their own way. The story isn't very detailed if I remember correctly.
I remember thinkig it ironic that the kroots move up the tech ladder and subsequent return to a primitive life was due to the Orcs. I could be wrong though, don't have the book in front of me right now.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Ya, I was always under the impression that they did invent it. It is more advanced than any Ork vessel anyway. Kroot are quite technological but if they acted like humans who sit around on the couch all day they would eventually all turn into Krootcows and Krootchickens. They actually strive pretty hard to be primitive.
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Post by: Kroothawk
focusedfire wrote:I think there is another story concerning the kroot sphere and kroot Tech in the first Tau codex. Something about a an orc hulk crashing on Pech and the kroot copying it in their own way. The story isn't very detailed if I remember correctly.
It is the same story, a longer version can be found in the above mentioned Kodex Kroot (check if you don't believe someone with "Kroot" in his name ).
Orks crashed on the Kroot's home planet Pech, started fighting. A huge year long war followed, with Tau siding with Kroot. In the course, Kroot ate one BigMech ...
BTW if Kroot ate fast food every day, they would moo after a year
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Post by: Kilkrazy
The Kroot Shapers have the ability to discern what they should let their tribe eat to guide its evolution.
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Post by: Riffzor
... ... Oh, wait what? Kroot gain the abilities of their food? =o
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Post by: Melissia
Kilkrazy wrote:So make the statline the same as Tau.
Then they aren't Kroot. They're Tau. Automatically Appended Next Post: KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ya, I was always under the impression that they did invent it. It is more advanced than any Ork vessel anyway.
Actually, Ork technology can be pretty advanced. The thing is, Orks do not care for ANYTHING other than warfare. So the advances they make tend to go towards that. Kroot DO have cares other htan war.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Melissia wrote:Kilkrazy wrote:So make the statline the same as Tau.
Then they aren't Kroot. They're Tau.
But they would look like high-tech Kroot.
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Post by: agnosto
Riffzor wrote:... ... Oh, wait what? Kroot gain the abilities of their food? =o
Yep. One of the cool things about Kroot is their ability to acquire preferred traits from their prey. There are limits of course because some beings are prohibited as prey and any Kroot breaking this law will be outcast.
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Post by: Riffzor
Hm, I wonder what would happen if a Kroot ate a Nurgling...
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Post by: agnosto
Riffzor wrote:Hm, I wonder what would happen if a Kroot ate a Nurgling...
It'd be small and stinky.
If you read the Kroot codex, you'll see the special rules for the different DNA adaptations. Ork Kroot, Tyranid Kroot, Vespid Kroot, etc.
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Post by: focusedfire
Riffzor wrote:Hm, I wonder what would happen if a Kroot ate a Nurgling...
The kroot consider chaotic mutation an abomination. They check have learned to not eat chaos creatures because the taint forces them to destroy their own in a manner where the genetic information is not returned to the kindred, which is about the worst thing that can happen in kroot society.
I'm sure Kroothawk can give you the specifics.
@Kroothawk- There is a wierd part of the kroot fluff that I was addressing. Was not questioning your posted version but an appaerent contridiction in the GW fluff. There would have had to have been two crashes many years apart. This is because of the kroot supposedly having advanced to living in cities and already being spread across several worlds in their system before the Orks invaded their system.
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Post by: Melissia
Kilkrazy wrote:But they would look like high-tech Kroot.
Yes, and? They'd not be kroot. Kroot don't suck in close combat like Tau do. In fact, close combat is a core aspect of Kroot culture...
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Then just stick the Kroot into the Tau equipment, ignore the equipment and keep the Kroot with their own points costs and statline.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Also, Space Marines can the instictual survival knowledge of the food they eat too!
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Post by: Kilkrazy
That's kind of contradictory because if they are eating it as food it didn't survive.
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Post by: Riffzor
Now I'm confused. =P
Anyhow, I think I've seen a pic of the Kroot ship thingy, looked a bit like an.. uh.. something dark green shaped like two.. round pointy thingies? Is that it?
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Post by: Melissia
The problem is you can't have an army of entirely kroot.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Kilkrazy wrote:
Holy hell. That's a Kroot Sphere? Always thought it would be more....spherical.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
GW invented the name.
I won't say anything more.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Some quotes from an old WD article reprinted in Kodex Kroot:
On genetic evolution:
By far the most odious habit of the Kroot is their practice of eating the flesh of the dead. In battle, this leads them to ritually devour the corpses of those they have killed, and almost nothing is beyond their tastes. The Kroot digestive system is extremely efficient, capable of breaking down almost any organic material into an energy form that can be stored in specialised organs scattered throughout their bodies called nymunes. Should anything inorganic and indigestible be consumed, the Kroot must regurgitate it, with considerable discomfort. However the strangest quirk of Kroot digestion is their ability to extract potentially useful strands of their food's DNA. Adeptus Mechanicus Genetors have long been aware that much of the double helix structure of DNA is in fact blank. Used to separate those areas that do contain genetic information. The Kroot have somehow inherited the ability to incorporate useful DNA codes into their own genetic make up. Larger Kroot, called Shapers, who have an instinctive understanding of this process, can direct their kindred to consume certain prey in order that in successive generations, they may take on elements of those genes.
BTW there is a small brain located around the stomach coordinating DNA extraction. To avoid evolutionary stillstand, the Kroot have to find new genes, so mercenaries are essential for the survival of the race. To keep the racial integrity, Kroot have to avoid chaotic mutations by Chaos and the incompatible genestealing DNA by Tyranids. Shapers are responsible to watch the food of the kindred. They smell Chaos corruption and Tyranid's incompatibility. So absolutely no Tyranid or Chaos Kroot.
On technology:
Thousands of years ago, when an Ork asteroid fortress, known as a Rok, crash landed on Pech, the survivors found themselves in the unenviable position of being outnumbered by a warrior race with a taste for flesh. The Orks were quickly destroyed and their bodies consumed by the Kroot. The Kroot laired in the Rok and, several generations later, they manifested the ability to mimic certain aspects of technology learned from the DNA of the dead Ork Meks. Around the remains of the shattered Ork Rok, the first Kroot city began to take shape as the inherited knowledge of technology became more commonplace.
Within the space of a few thousand years, Pech's prime continent was home to five Kroot hives, and factory farming and mining were commonplace. This became known as the Kroot expansionist phase and saw the Kroot construct warp-capable warspheres to take them to the stars.
Here, the Kroot met the Orks once more, but this lime the balance of power had changed. Untested leaders and untried ways of war failed the Kroot in the face of Ork brutality and they were pushed back on every front by the more aggressive Greenskins. However, each world the Orks took remained a thorn in their side as Kroot guerrillas continued to fight the invaders. Eventually, the Kroot were forced to take service as mercenaries with various alien races in order to survive. After twenty years of war, the Kroot (with Tau assistance) were able to reclaim their worlds with minimal resistance as the Orks had simply engaged in looting and destruction on a massive scale before moving on.
The Kroot now looked to rebuild their worlds as they had been before the Ork incursion, but those Kroot who had remained behind to fight the Orks had other ideas. They were not about to rebuild a society that had led them into war and then failed to defend them. Led by a visionary leader named Anghkor Prok, they advocated a return to the old ways, to the time before the coming of the Ork Rok. There would be no rebuilding and the Kroot would revert to the traditional ways that had served them perfectly well for thousands of years. A compromise was reached where each kindred would spend time as mercenaries and fight for other races, returning to their home world periodically to pass on any useful genetic material they had acquired following their victories. A number of warspheres remained on Pech to guard against further invasions and the mercenary Kroot departed to ply their trade amongst the stars.
Today Pech is a wild and untamed world; the forests still cover most of the prime continent and the hives that were once home to millions of Kroot are now overgrown and provide shelter to many Kroot kindred. There are no cities on Pech, though there are places sacred to the Kroot, such as the enormous carved Jagga tree on the slopes of Mount Kaikown that marks the final resting place of Anghkor Prok, the Oathstone on the Plain of Bones, where he first swore loyalty to the Tau empire, and the Grove of Ancestors in the Kamyon Mountains. There are also places that the Kroot avoid, cursed and haunted regions like the Y’gothlac Forest wherein dwell terrifying monsters evolved from the Kroot genus thousands of years ago. Such places are shunned and are places of twisted, black trees and polluted ground, as though the land itself understands that what lives within is evil and a corruption against nature. Some Kindreds use these dark woods as proving grounds for their warriors to display their courage and manhood, but such practices are few and far between, as only a fraction of those who venture within are ever heard from again.
Small addendum: Kroothawks are small falcons on the Kroot homeworld Pech, that are revered as the evolutionary origin of all Kroot-like lifeforms (Krootox, Kroot Hound, Knarloc).
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Kroot are weird. They seem based on Native Americans but have Cambodian names.
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Post by: Riffzor
I didn't know native americans were cannibals-mercenaries? =P
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Post by: focusedfire
Don't think just north american, but instead think south american and then globally.
The kroot are patterned off of a conglomeration of primitive peoples. Their head quills may give a strong mid-west north-american native look, but they are designed to be representative of the many different primitive cultures that have successfully engaged guerilla warfare against a more industialized or high-tech enemy.
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Post by: Riffzor
Oh yeah, I keep forgetting about South America's existance.. =o I always think of 'America' as North America.
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Post by: TBD
Kroothawk wrote:To keep the racial integrity, Kroot have to avoid chaotic mutations by Chaos and the incompatible genestealing DNA by Tyranids. Shapers are responsible to watch the food of the kindred. They smell Chaos corruption and Tyranid's incompatibility. So absolutely no Tyranid or Chaos Kroot.
And what if there is no Shaper around?
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Post by: Riffzor
Then they'll turn into chaoticly mutated Kroot? =P
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Post by: Melissia
If there's no shaper, they wouldn't be using that DNA for reproduction to begin with... that's the shaper's job.
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Post by: Kroothawk
The kindred is always led by a shaper. So if a single Kroot makes the mistake of eating Chaos corrupted flesh and his stomach brain makes the mistake to extract this corrupted DNA, he would be expelled from the kindred on return and in this case most probably killed and burned, so that he can't endanger the future of the Kroot race.
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Post by: Riffzor
Cool. 'Oi, you ate the wrong food. Get outa here, and if we ever see you again - You die!' =P
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Post by: Melissia
Or just "die" depending on how bad it is. It's not just about eating the food either, it's also about extracting the DNA from the food they eat.
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Post by: Riffzor
So.. It's basicly like a human eating a chocolate bar, and extracts the sugar, and gets executed for it?
.. Although we don't choose what to extract and not.. *sighs* If only..
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Post by: Kroothawk
It's a matter of live or death for the Kroot race, as their gene pool is fundamentally dynamic. Humans have strict incest rules to avoid genetic degeneration, Kroot must enforce even stricter rules so the gene pool doesn't degenerate or collapse. As a warning example, some degenerated Kroot-like life forms exist in the jungles on their home planet Pech, and Krootok/Kroot hound are evolutionary dead ends as well. And as said, as genetic evolution is so important, Kroot have to spread in the universe and assimilate new genes, and the Tau have understood that need and silently tolerate the mercenaries.
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Post by: Riffzor
Oh, the Kroot Hounds are like an evulotionary branch from whatever the Kroot were before? I thought they just were called Kroot Hounds because they were used like.. well, how we use dogs, as pets and as... well, weapons-ish. Something like the Tusken Raiders' 'dogs' in Star Wars.
I should go have a look at the Kroot fluff somewhere..
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Post by: Melissia
Nope, Kroot Hounds are, literally, Kroot who have become like hounds.
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Post by: Riffzor
Cool. Do they have the same kind of intelligence as 'normal' kroot or are they completely beast-like? And do the Kroot see them as their brethren or as war-beasts/pets?
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Post by: Melissia
THOSE questions would be something someone else could answer...
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Post by: 4M2A
No kroot hounds aren't intelligent like kroot they are just animals. Thats why kroot need to be careful, otherwise they will all end up stuck and in a bad form and unable to change.
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Post by: KamikazeCanuck
Riffzor wrote:Cool. Do they have the same kind of intelligence as 'normal' kroot or are they completely beast-like? And do the Kroot see them as their brethren or as war-beasts/pets?
Basically, there's Kroot-Version of every animal. The original kroot is the Kroothawk. The standard infantry Kroot Humans are used to are basically KrootOrks.
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Post by: Kroothawk
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The original kroot is the Kroothawk.
Thanks
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