Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.
-George Bernard Shaw
Discuss.
----------------------------------------
I definitely agree with the quote, but ack, this whole "brought up in the environment" thing might be rubbing off on me because if I see people slag off Britons I leap in! Not with silly emotional OMG NO U SUK but rather just trying to anger 'em back... But that may simply be my love of being devil's advocate.
In the game Europa Universalis II, I always love starting as either Poland or Austria, because when the 16th century rolls around, you subsume a generally large neighbor into your nation, thus becoming a much stronger entity.
Well, i'm a patriot in the sense that i'd take up arms and fight if any country invaded mine.
I'm also a patriot in the sense that i'd put a bullet through the heads of each and every politician who is responsible for the state this country's in.
I love my country, even though it sucks big time. This is patriotism to me
I think patriotism is lame, but I still am patriotic. Only a little though, regular Australians think I am a foreign immigrant, that usually helps curb it.
The reason its lame is that people stop using their brains on the subject.
Australia is the best!
Have you ever left it?
No, but its still the best!
Australians do that all the time.
I do enjoy people who live in Australia going on about how great their ethnic background country is, because if it was so great you wouldn't leave.
Henners91 wrote:Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.
-George Bernard Shaw
Discuss.
----------------------------------------
I definitely agree with the quote, but ack, this whole "brought up in the environment" thing might be rubbing off on me because if I see people slag off Britons I leap in! Not with silly emotional OMG NO U SUK but rather just trying to anger 'em back... But that may simply be my love of being devil's advocate.
That isn't my definition, so I can't really think of anything to discuss about it.
Ahtman wrote:"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson
"Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." - Oscar Wilde
And the always fun to quote George Patton:
“If you can't get them to salute when they should salute and wear the clothes you tell them to wear, how are you going to get them to die for their country?”
Patriotism is a good thing I suppose, and it can be a bad thing. Anyways I like my country, even for all the fecked up things our goverment dose at times. When I think of it I would not move anywhere else. So I say thank the maker or that I am Norwegian
I love the United States dearly, and fancy it to be the greatest place on Earth. Sebster, there is nothing wrong with saying that you find your home to be better. I certainly see the US as being better then Somalia. Saying that doesn't make it a vice. You are being a tad bit quick in defining such ideas. That being said, I love the UK dearly as well. I would very much like to move there and apply for dual citizenship. I am a strange mix of Thomas Jefferson and Rudyard Kipling....
"America, 10 million illegal immigrants can't be wrong." Richard Jeni
Personally I'm in a toss up with Germany and Russia due to my love of vodka and beer. Patriotism to me roots from loving a country you were either born in or intentionally relocated to and defend the land for the ideals you feel it stands for.
I can't say I'm a huge fang of pride in general, be it in one's country or anything else. That said so long as it doesn't get out of hand it it's hardly the worst thing in the world.
While I do enjoy living in the north-west of the US, I'd like to move somewhere far away where I can escape American politics despite how silly that sounds. I'm currently thinking some Scandinavian country, but there are too many myths and wild rumors in the way to make a clean decision.
Nationalism is saying your home is better than other people's.
The first of those is a virtue.
Are we confusing Nationalism with Jingoism? Or are the two not so disimilar?
Anyway, I love Australia, but I think it's gak in some areas.
Our natural beauty, or wonderful beaches, our friendly (hungry) wildlife. Then we have the Refugee Detention centres, racism, obnoxious dopeheads and poloticians. It's like being given the Statue of David and having a whack at it with spray paint and nunchucks.
I dont love or even like my or any other country en masse. The whole idea just seems ridiculous, I like certain places and towns alot though. What does that make me? A Townie? :-)
According to the HDI it's Norway, with Sweden below Canada (and the UK below the US). Of course, we all know that index is BS, and the true best country in the world to live in is:
CIA World Factbook, GDP per Capita, wrote:1 Liechtenstein 122,100 2007 est.
2 Qatar 121,700 2009 est.
3 Luxembourg 78,000 2009 est.
4 Norway 58,600 2009 est.
5 Kuwait 54,100 2009 est.
6 Singapore 50,300 2009 est.
7 Brunei 50,100 2009 est.
8 United States 46,400 2009 est.
9 Andorra 44,900 2008
10 Ireland 42,200 2009 est
Yeah I agree, you deserve way more posonous snakes and spiders than you have got. We have been overly lenient.
ing speak for yourself!
Automatically Appended Next Post: For some reason I feel strangely patriotic towards Sweden now...
Orkeosaurus wrote:According to the HDI it's Norway, with Sweden below Canada (and the UK below the US). Of course, we all know that index is BS, and the true best country in the world to live in is:
CIA World Factbook, GDP per Capita, wrote:1 Liechtenstein 122,100 2007 est.
2 Qatar 121,700 2009 est.
3 Luxembourg 78,000 2009 est.
4 Norway 58,600 2009 est.
5 Kuwait 54,100 2009 est.
6 Singapore 50,300 2009 est.
7 Brunei 50,100 2009 est.
8 United States 46,400 2009 est.
9 Andorra 44,900 2008
10 Ireland 42,200 2009 est
OH SHI-
Have I not been warning you people of mordor like menace that is Leichtenstein?
"Dude you don't with Leichtenstein. Seriously."
- Sauron.
Frazzled wrote: Have I not been warning you people of mordor like menace that is Leichtenstein? "Dude you don't with Leichtenstein. Seriously." - Sauron.
Yeah you could put the whole ing country on a ring and wear it around
Jingoism is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as "extreme patriotism in the form of aggressive foreign policy".
Patriotism is love and devotion to one's country. The word comes from the Greek patris, meaning fatherland.
Nationalism involves a strong identification of society and the state. It can also include the belief that the state is of primary importance, or the belief that one state is naturally superior to all other states.
A patriot loves his country, a nationalist believes his country is the best, a jingoist will force you to believe his country is best.
halonachos wrote:
A patriot loves his country, a nationalist believes his country is the best, a jingoist will force you to believe his country is best.
Well, by the definition you provided, a nationalist would love his nation (eg. society) and feel that it deserved to be recognized, and protected by the creation of a state. Protection, in this instance is not necessarily related to military action, but often cultural safe-guards as well; hence we have parties like the BNP.
halonachos wrote:
A patriot loves his country, a nationalist believes his country is the best, a jingoist will force you to believe his country is best.
Well, by the definition you provided, a nationalist would love his nation (eg. society) and feel that it deserved to be recognized, and protected by the creation of a state. Protection, in this instance is not necessarily related to military action, but often cultural safe-guards as well; hence we have parties like the BNP.
I consider myself a nationalist - however this in the civic/territorial sense. Ethnicity plays no part in it for me. I feel absolutely no connection to the BNP - ethnocentric politics are for the terminally immature and the culturally illiterate.
Yeah, as with most -isms, nationalism has many possible meanings. About the only requirement is that any given definition relate to support for, and attachment to, any given nation.
halonachos wrote:
A patriot loves his country, a nationalist believes his country is the best, a jingoist will force you to believe his country is best.
Well, by the definition you provided, a nationalist would love his nation (eg. society) and feel that it deserved to be recognized, and protected by the creation of a state. Protection, in this instance is not necessarily related to military action, but often cultural safe-guards as well; hence we have parties like the BNP.
I consider myself a nationalist - however this in the civic/territorial sense. Ethnicity plays no part in it for me. I feel absolutely no connection to the BNP - ethnocentric politics are for the terminally immature and the culturally illiterate.
You really believe we live in the best country in the world?
IMO France is historically much better... but mnyah.
halonachos wrote:
A patriot loves his country, a nationalist believes his country is the best, a jingoist will force you to believe his country is best.
Well, by the definition you provided, a nationalist would love his nation (eg. society) and feel that it deserved to be recognized, and protected by the creation of a state. Protection, in this instance is not necessarily related to military action, but often cultural safe-guards as well; hence we have parties like the BNP.
I consider myself a nationalist - however this in the civic/territorial sense. Ethnicity plays no part in it for me. I feel absolutely no connection to the BNP - ethnocentric politics are for the terminally immature and the culturally illiterate.
You really believe we live in the best country in the world?
IMO France is historically much better... but mnyah.
Yeah, we get it - you're a self-hating Brit. We've just had 12 years of them in power. Turned out marvellously, didn't it...
How exactly is France 'historically much better' than England/Britain? They've spend most of their history playing second fiddle to us.
That's by-the-by. I don't believe that my country is the most powerful, the most wealthy, or the most important.
But it is the most 'mine'.
It's my feeling that if everyone in the UK took pride in their country, in their community and in themselves as British people, it would solve a lot of our societal problems.
Pride in your country Sticking to traditional British Values of hard-work, honesty and decency. This means getting off your arse and finding work so you can pay taxes for the things we need, such as education, defence and the health service. It is dishonest and indecent to expect others to subsidise your laziness if you CAN work, but choose not to.
Pride in your community Not turning a blind eye to the antisocial behaviour, petty crime and casual violence which blights our neighbourhood. Hell, how about a return to 'neighbourhood' as a concept. Sending out the signal that drunken, jobless, antisocial scum who make decent peoples lives a misery with their intimidation and loutish behaviour will not be tolerated. Keeping our streets clean because they are OURS. Helping the Police to do their jobs by being open and honest, instead of clannish and distrustful. They are OUR public servants, but they can't help us unless we help them. Showing the most vulnerable, frightened and lonely members of society that we are there for them.
Pride in yourself as a Briton Focussing on the things that bind us together, not that keep us apart. Pride in our pivotal role in history. Pride in our culture. Pride that people of all races and religions call our country their home - our flag has more than one colour, so do our people. But they all have one thing in common: They are British, and I'm proud of that.
JEB_Stuart wrote:I love the United States dearly, and fancy it to be the greatest place on Earth. Sebster, there is nothing wrong with saying that you find your home to be better. I certainly see the US as being better then Somalia. Saying that doesn't make it a vice. You are being a tad bit quick in defining such ideas. That being said, I love the UK dearly as well. I would very much like to move there and apply for dual citizenship. I am a strange mix of Thomas Jefferson and Rudyard Kipling....
Sure, there's nothing with saying your home is better than some places, such as Somalia. I should have made my definition clearer, nationalism being the belief that one's home is objectively better than all other places. And yeah, I do consider such a belief odious.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Emperors Faithful wrote:Are we confusing Nationalism with Jingoism? Or are the two not so disimilar?
Jingoism is tied to aggressive foreign policy. It comes from a British song that began circulating in the lead up to the Crimean War with Russia;
"We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do,
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too,
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true,
The Russians shall not have Constantinople."
Anyway, I love Australia, but I think it's gak in some areas.
Our natural beauty, or wonderful beaches, our friendly (hungry) wildlife. Then we have the Refugee Detention centres, racism, obnoxious dopeheads and poloticians. It's like being given the Statue of David and having a whack at it with spray paint and nunchucks.
Yeah, I agree with you on the beaches, and would add the outback. There's something very spiritual about seeing a sunrise on the Nullabor.
I'd agree on the racism, and add a strange, overt hostility to culture as a particularly ugly part of Australian culture. I actually don't have that much hostility to our politicians - the two Federal leaders we have right now are pretty crappy, but for the most part the prominent members of the two parties are pretty decent. I'll accept that being in Tasmania and having seen what I've seen of your State politicians, that might affect one's view considerably.
sebster wrote:Jingoism is tied to aggressive foreign policy. It comes from a British song that began circulating in the lead up to the Crimean War with Russia;
"We don't want to fight but by Jingo if we do,
We've got the ships, we've got the men, we've got the money too,
We've fought the Bear before, and while we're Britons true,
The Russians shall not have Constantinople."
Okay, this has always bothered me; how the hell are they pronouncing "Constantinople"?
Orkeosaurus wrote:Okay, this has always bothered me; how the hell are they pronouncing "Constantinople"?
So that it rhymes with 'true', so umm, I have no idea. If nothing else it strikes me as really terrible song. Our skill at convincing the general population to support a war half way across the planet fought for confusing geo-political reasons has gotten a lot better.
sebster wrote:Sure, there's nothing with saying your home is better than some places, such as Somalia. I should have made my definition clearer, nationalism being the belief that one's home is objectively better than all other places. And yeah, I do consider such a belief odious.
That's fine, I can understand that. Most of my family is like that. I am not. I have been accused of being anti-American for loving Britain so much. I CAN'T HELP THAT THEY HAVE A BETTER "NATIONAL" ANTHEM!!!!
dogma wrote:Its got to have something to do with evolving pronunciation, because the whole song is incredibly awkward in English as I know it.
Not gonna lie, it is really, really easy to drink to. If I didn't have to go to work in the morning I would be doing it right now.
sebster wrote:
I actually don't have that much hostility to our politicians - the two Federal leaders we have right now are pretty crappy, but for the most part the prominent members of the two parties are pretty decent. I'll accept that being in Tasmania and having seen what I've seen of your State politicians, that might affect one's view considerably.
I've always been surprised (nay alarmed!) at the real sense of hostility in US politics and the huge divide between left and right. Australia seems to have a fair amount of 'swinging' voters, and you'll never really run into any in depth conversations about one party over the other. I don't know if there's a reason for that, but a mans politics seem to be very far down on ones list of priorities. Antipathy would be a good way of describing most Australian's views on politics.
Oh, and I was about to ask that Constantinople question too, but Orkeo beat me to it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Constantinopool? Pule? Pewl?
Emperors Faithful wrote:I've always been surprised (nay alarmed!) at the real sense of hostility in US politics and the huge divide between left and right. Australia seems to have a fair amount of 'swinging' voters, and you'll never really run into any in depth conversations about one party over the other. I don't know if there's a reason for that, but a mans politics seem to be very far down on ones list of priorities. Antipathy would be a good way of describing most Australian's views on politics.
It hasn't always been that way, Australia used to have strong party distinctions between Liberal and Labor, whereas these days both parties have pushed towards the centre, more or less taking whatever position the polls support. At the same time it seems that rhetoric in US politics has intensified. I suspect this is less to do with people though, and more to do with internal political decisions within the parties themselves.
I know there's a lot of noisy internet people with strong opinions on politics, but I don't think it necessarily follows that they represent people in the US itself. Given the Americans I've met and their voting turnouts, I suspect they're about as engaged as we are.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JEB_Stuart wrote:That's fine, I can understand that. Most of my family is like that. I am not. I have been accused of being anti-American for loving Britain so much. I CAN'T HELP THAT THEY HAVE A BETTER "NATIONAL" ANTHEM!!!!
What is going, man? I think God Save the Queen is rubbish, and think the Star Spangled Banner is great.
British popular song has not always placed great emphasis on rhyming couplets. There are many British music-hall songs that don't rhyme all the way through.
halonachos wrote:
A patriot loves his country, a nationalist believes his country is the best, a jingoist will force you to believe his country is best.
Well, by the definition you provided, a nationalist would love his nation (eg. society) and feel that it deserved to be recognized, and protected by the creation of a state. Protection, in this instance is not necessarily related to military action, but often cultural safe-guards as well; hence we have parties like the BNP.
I consider myself a nationalist - however this in the civic/territorial sense. Ethnicity plays no part in it for me. I feel absolutely no connection to the BNP - ethnocentric politics are for the terminally immature and the culturally illiterate.
You really believe we live in the best country in the world?
IMO France is historically much better... but mnyah.
Yeah, we get it - you're a self-hating Brit. We've just had 12 years of them in power. Turned out marvellously, didn't it...
How exactly is France 'historically much better' than England/Britain? They've spend most of their history playing second fiddle to us.
That's by-the-by. I don't believe that my country is the most powerful, the most wealthy, or the most important.
But it is the most 'mine'.
It's my feeling that if everyone in the UK took pride in their country, in their community and in themselves as British people, it would solve a lot of our societal problems.
Pride in your country Sticking to traditional British Values of hard-work, honesty and decency. This means getting off your arse and finding work so you can pay taxes for the things we need, such as education, defence and the health service. It is dishonest and indecent to expect others to subsidise your laziness if you CAN work, but choose not to.
Pride in your community Not turning a blind eye to the antisocial behaviour, petty crime and casual violence which blights our neighbourhood. Hell, how about a return to 'neighbourhood' as a concept. Sending out the signal that drunken, jobless, antisocial scum who make decent peoples lives a misery with their intimidation and loutish behaviour will not be tolerated. Keeping our streets clean because they are OURS. Helping the Police to do their jobs by being open and honest, instead of clannish and distrustful. They are OUR public servants, but they can't help us unless we help them. Showing the most vulnerable, frightened and lonely members of society that we are there for them.
Pride in yourself as a Briton Focussing on the things that bind us together, not that keep us apart. Pride in our pivotal role in history. Pride in our culture. Pride that people of all races and religions call our country their home - our flag has more than one colour, so do our people. But they all have one thing in common: They are British, and I'm proud of that.
That's what Nationalism means to me.
It's a fabulous gimmick: I just assume that we feel that way because of our anglo-centric history, but I imagine a French student would learn about how France under the Franks built Europe's greatest medieval empire... obviously that fell but still remained the centre of Medieval politics, rose again to become the pre-eminent power, though I'll admit it seems they took a nap during the Tudor period due to internal struggles. The Napoleonic period just emphasises how powerful a nation it was. Whereas we Brits came to ignore Europe and just comb the seas France in her history has dominated the continent AND managed to build an Empire second in size to ours.
I'd also argue that their state today is much more modern and liberally democratic than our own (despite the progresses we claim to have invented, we're still following this ridiculous Westminster system)... Really, I think the reason that we place so much emphasis on Britain as Yankees and Brits is because we've made the world anglo-centric, or at least, as far as I am aware it can be described as thus (naturally I lack what I think would be an illuminating experience: A point of view on world history from a foreign perspective, I mean, I wonder how relatively "minor" nations view it). There are countries out there that can easily contend with our experience: If we're going to get nationalistic it should be as Europeans, not silly factions that at the end of the day aren't relatively easily to differ from one another if considered from another vantage. I'll admit I picked France as an example to deliberately grind the gears of other Britons, but I would stand by everything I've said about it. "Playing fiddle to us": I'd say they occasionally felt the need to come after us when their position on the continent was secure, whereas through our history we've been: Aspirants to the FRENCH throne, pirates, colonists, traders, Imperialists. It's not as impressive a resume if you ask me.
Though, I'm glad you've clarified that our country isn't the best... Makes me wonder if me typing out all that was necessary but what-the-hey!
I wonder who you target with your first principle "Pride in your Country": is it that massive host of young, athletic, well-built individuals who are all apparently sponging off the state? It's a nice illusion to believe in I guess, that people *choose* not to work and that the government never took step to remove them from that position... It's almost as good as blaming the Jews.
Pride in your Community: Labour wanted middle class votes, if you possessed the perfect implementation plan to build that utopia of yours, you should have gone to Westminster! They'd have received you with open arms! No? It's easy to criticise from the sidelines. But don't worry, I'm sure the Tories will "put more police on the beat" (despite the fact we've never had so many policemen) and at least beat the problem away from your eyes.
I can't disagree with your final point though
I'll add that I voted for the first time last election and I was forced to tactical vote... Literally going to bed with Nick Clegg and waking up with... that thing.
Henners proves me right again, ive always claimed that all of these pathetic "politically correct" hand wringing, self loathing cringing socialists made up the "meat" of the labour party, and what does he do?
Tactical Voting.
Ahh democracy.
Labour have screwed the country, but you tactically voted to try and keep them in?
Explain a good reason why, and no "mum and dad raised me to do that" doesnt count as a good answer.
Ugh.. "tactical voting".. even the words make me want to rip my own head off in frustration.
Henners91 wrote:It's a fabulous gimmick: I just assume that we feel that way because of our anglo-centric history, but I imagine a French student would learn about how France under the Franks built Europe's greatest medieval empire... obviously that fell but still remained the centre of Medieval politics, rose again to become the pre-eminent power, though I'll admit it seems they took a nap during the Tudor period due to internal struggles. The Napoleonic period just emphasises how powerful a nation it was. Whereas we Brits came to ignore Europe and just comb the seas France in her history has dominated the continent AND managed to build an Empire second in size to ours.
Well, Napoleon tried to dominate Europe and was defeated by a coalition of European powers with Britain as the leader. Hardly ignoring Europe, is it? I love the part about 'just combing the seas' - is that how you would describe an Empire of unprecedented wealth and power? You really are laughable in your efforts to downplay the history of your own country. There is a reason modern history is anglo-centric - we made it so. English is the de facto language of commerce, and most of the world's wealth is based upon the British Empire's legacy of global trade. I assume you'll probably reply with some facile, childish rubbish such as 'yeah, but is that a good thing?
Enjoy your computer, shoes, TV, food, banking...ad nauseum
I'd also argue that their state today is much more modern and liberally democratic than our own
Potential burkha ban.
If we're going to get nationalistic it should be as Europeans, not silly factions that at the end of the day aren't relatively easily to differ from one another if considered from another vantage.
Europe isn't a nation - even so, you can hardly describe Britain's historic position as that of a 'silly faction'. I think that applies to mainland Europe more than it does to us. What possible reason would you have to be nationalistic as a European? The Euro? Centuries of internecine squabbling, war and genocide? You seriously need to revisit which side your baguette is buttered. The EU is an experiment, one that is on the verge of failure.
Aspirants to the FRENCH throne, pirates, colonists, traders, Imperialists. It's not as impressive a resume if you ask me.
The French did all those things, they just didn't do them as successfully as us - that's why I said they've played second fiddle to us.
The exception of course being the French throne - they got rid of that. The Great Terror anyone?
I wonder who you target with your first principle "Pride in your Country": is it that massive host of young, athletic, well-built individuals who are all apparently sponging off the state? It's a nice illusion to believe in I guess, that people *choose* not to work and that the government never took step to remove them from that position... It's almost as good as blaming the Jews.
Oh behave! It's absolutely nothing like that - what an insult to a group of people who were victimised and ultimately exterminated. You have some serious growing up to do.
Whilst we're talking about illusions - do you honestly believe that everyone who claims Jobseeker's Allowance is incapable of finding work? Seriously? What planet are you living on? Youth unemployment is at record levels, as are the number of people of working age who have NEVER worked. Nah, but they're all sick and infirm, or it's the tory party's fault, or there are no jobs, or they're being victimised....
Do you ACTUALLY believe this stuff or are you just trotting out the party line?
Pride in your Community: Labour wanted middle class votes, if you possessed the perfect implementation plan to build that utopia of yours, you should have gone to Westminster! They'd have received you with open arms! No? It's easy to criticise from the sidelines. But don't worry, I'm sure the Tories will "put more police on the beat" (despite the fact we've never had so many policemen) and at least beat the problem away from your eyes.
Who said anything about putting 'more police on the beat'? I'm talking about a community coming together to show that thuggish behaviour won't be tolerated. Taking responsibility. I'm not even going to talk about how much Labour increased bureaucracy in the Police Force. It's not my job to educate you. But fine, ignore the social problems we are facing, ignore the urban decay - ASBOs haven't fixed the country, they have arguably made it worse.
You're a self-hating British europhile - looks like the Labour party got it's hooks into you good and early.
Sebster wrote:What is going, man? I think God Save the Queen is rubbish, and think the Star Spangled Banner is great.
You, Dogma and I need to sit down and have a nice chat.
I don't like God Save the Queen either, but dear god the Star Spangled Banner is crap.
Though that may have something to do with having to hear it as every single sporting event that I've either attended, or played in, throughout the entirety of my life.
The Star Spangled Banner is awesome because it's long lasting. God Save the Queen has to be changed if a king comes along while "Bombs Bursting in Air" reflects even today's world events.
JEB_Stuart wrote:That's fine, I can understand that. Most of my family is like that. I am not. I have been accused of being anti-American for loving Britain so much. I CAN'T HELP THAT THEY HAVE A BETTER "NATIONAL" ANTHEM!!!!
What is going, man? I think God Save the Queen is rubbish, and think the Star Spangled Banner is great.
Hate to say it, but I think La Marseillaise beats all.
Of course america is the best they created the hot air balloon, the English language and singlehandedly won both world wars.. I mean why is this even a discussion.
Sebster wrote:What is going, man? I think God Save the Queen is rubbish, and think the Star Spangled Banner is great.
You, Dogma and I need to sit down and have a nice chat.
I don't like God Save the Queen either, but dear god the Star Spangled Banner is crap.
Though that may have something to do with having to hear it as every single sporting event that I've either attended, or played in, throughout the entirety of my life.
Star spangled banner is as good as any other national anthem. Overexposure kills that kind of thing, I don't understand why it's played at sporting events.
Star spangled banner is as good as any other national anthem. Overexposure kills that kind of thing, I don't understand why it's played at sporting events.
ShumaGorath wrote:The best country is clearly the moon.
Pfft. Titan kicks the Moon's ass. TITAN, TITAN, TITAN!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gorgon wrote:
sebster wrote:
JEB_Stuart wrote:That's fine, I can understand that. Most of my family is like that. I am not. I have been accused of being anti-American for loving Britain so much. I CAN'T HELP THAT THEY HAVE A BETTER "NATIONAL" ANTHEM!!!!
What is going, man? I think God Save the Queen is rubbish, and think the Star Spangled Banner is great.
Hate to say it, but I think La Marseillaise beats all.
Yeah, La Marseillaise is good.
It has to be said, many more countries have anthems which sound more interesting than both the UK and USAs.
For example, the Paraguayan anthem is a charming ditty by the name of 'Paraguayans, the Republic or Death!', or how about Bhutan's - 'The Thunder Dragon Kingdom'? That's pretty METAL!-sounding.
There is also Sao Tome and Principe's 'Total Independence', which sounds like a Steven Seagal film.
I intentionally didn't think about it. You did put the thought of watching Titan A.E. into my head. Now I have to track it down and buy it. Such an entertaining movie.
mattyrm wrote:"waa waa the French are so much better.."
Henners proves me right again, ive always claimed that all of these pathetic "politically correct" hand wringing, self loathing cringing socialists made up the "meat" of the labour party, and what does he do?
Tactical Voting.
Ahh democracy.
Labour have screwed the country, but you tactically voted to try and keep them in?
Explain a good reason why, and no "mum and dad raised me to do that" doesnt count as a good answer.
Ugh.. "tactical voting".. even the words make me want to rip my own head off in frustration.
I'll pretend not to be insulted
I voted on ideological grounds, appealing to my own sense of morality rather than throwing my lot in (at least, party membership-wise) with the Liberals who I consider to simply be conscientious Free Marketeers (and a waste of a vote, as my Tactical Vote in Wokingham certainly was). I'll admit that as more information about the deficit comes out I've been disheartened, at points even considering burying my head in the sand... That anger should be directed towards Brown and his Third Way proponents, not my beliefs as a Socialist: Therefore I am afraid that the party will always maintain my loyalty so long as it is the only remotely leftist party that remains electable.
As for "screwing up the country": You call me self-loathing? Do you read the Sun every morning and have a little raaage about all the damn immigants, da bankas and da Empeez expenzez? Maybe it would be prudent to cast your mind back to 1997 and think of everything we've gained, Major hardly left the nation in the best condition. If you're going to whine about "Broken Britain" then 1. I'd ask you if it's really altogether that bad, funny enough you can actually walk the streets and 2. If you can honestly tell me that the "disgusting, dirty underclasses" are kept as benefit claimers by Labour, who've introduced pretty nasty legislation that requires you to actively find work within 6 months? A friend of mine is going through that now and they literally watch his every move.
It's so fashionable to fling blame for every problem at the incumbent government, especially when the majority of the press is opposed to it. Thirteen years is a long time, a long time for people to get bored and attribute mistakes to the state and, of course, for random events to pop to the surface such as Civil Servants leaving laptops on the train... How did you feel in 1997? What would you say attracted your attention elsewhere? A media equivalent of a fluttering butterfly? Like it or not, Labour was democratically elected three times.
As for my parents, they, as far as I know, only voted for Labour the first time this election, having been LibDem voters beforehand with my dad even voting Tory many years ago. If you want to attribute some kind of stereotype to me, go for "Middle Class kid all independent for the first time! Whaaay politics! Whaaay Unions!"
We're in a financial crisis which people can't expect a free ride through: If you have the ability to pay then you must, taxes should be raised and people forced to bear the brunt for their fellow man, Brits love to conjure up this phantom of "The Blitz Spirit" and yet when faced with the prospect of actually having to endure losses to assist others they shirk away. I recently had the pleasure of listening to Eddie Izzard for the second time thanks to my party and he flat out said to one question that he is happy to pay higher taxes temporarily.
What's wrong with Tactical Voting? I shan't do it again since I went to bed with Clegg and woke up with Cameron, but are you going to tell me that I should have voted Labour in Wokingham? Look up the damn figures, man! I figured the only constructive course of action was to attempt to deny Cameron a seat, which of course failed.. what with it being Wokingham... but I had to vote out of principle, as I believe that anyone who doesn't vote has no right to whine about anything remotely political. Ever.
My upping the French, as I explained, was a deliberate choice to simply grind the tits of me fellow Englishmen Honestly I don't see how we can say we're better than them... Maybe a non-power, but certainly not our historical rivals...
Also, please offer clarification: Is *not* believing our country is the best in Europe "self-hating"?
Henners91 wrote:As for "screwing up the country": You call me self-loathing? Do you read the Sun every morning and have a little raaage about all the damn immigants, da bankas and da Empeez expenzez? Maybe it would be prudent to cast your mind back to 1997 and think of everything we've gained, Major hardly left the nation in the best condition. If you're going to whine about "Broken Britain" then 1. I'd ask you if it's really altogether that bad, funny enough you can actually walk the streets and 2. If you can honestly tell me that the "disgusting, dirty underclasses" are kept as benefit claimers by Labour, who've introduced pretty nasty legislation that requires you to actively find work within 6 months? A friend of mine is going through that now and they literally watch his every move.
How old were you in 1997? Is the '91' in your username a reflection of your DOB? How do you know what we have and haven't gained in real terms? It isn't 'nasty' to expect someone to find work in half a year.
It's so fashionable to fling blame for every problem at the incumbent government, especially when the majority of the press is opposed to it. Thirteen years is a long time, a long time for people to get bored and attribute mistakes to the state and, of course, for random events to pop to the surface such as Civil Servants leaving laptops on the train...
Yeah, because it has nothing to do with two foreign wars, massive overspending, increased bureaucracy, forcing the Lisbon treaty down our necks, immigration the highest it's ever been and the worst financial crisis since WWII.
But hey, I'm just fashionable.
We're in a financial crisis which people can't expect a free ride through: If you have the ability to pay then you must, taxes should be raised and people forced to bear the brunt for their fellow man, Brits love to conjure up this phantom of "The Blitz Spirit" and yet when faced with the prospect of actually having to endure losses to assist others they shirk away. I recently had the pleasure of listening to Eddie Izzard for the second time thanks to my party and he flat out said to one question that he is happy to pay higher taxes temporarily.
Let me get this straight - Labour taxes us up the arse, wastes all the money, and your answer is 'put taxes up'? Erm, hello? The Civil Service is bloated beyond all sensible proportions and we spend BILLIONS on benefits - in some parts of the UK the Public Sector makes up 70% of the economy! If that wasn't bad enough, it's not even working! All those people the Labour Party promised to lift out of poverty... the gap between the richest and the poorest is higher than when Labour took over, and there are more people officially living in poverty now.
mattyrm wrote:"waa waa the French are so much better.."
Henners proves me right again, ive always claimed that all of these pathetic "politically correct" hand wringing, self loathing cringing socialists made up the "meat" of the labour party, and what does he do?
Tactical Voting.
Ahh democracy.
Labour have screwed the country, but you tactically voted to try and keep them in?
Explain a good reason why, and no "mum and dad raised me to do that" doesnt count as a good answer.
Ugh.. "tactical voting".. even the words make me want to rip my own head off in frustration.
I'll pretend not to be insulted
I voted on ideological grounds, appealing to my own sense of morality rather than throwing my lot in (at least, party membership-wise) with the Liberals who I consider to simply be conscientious Free Marketeers (and a waste of a vote, as my Tactical Vote in Wokingham certainly was). I'll admit that as more information about the deficit comes out I've been disheartened, at points even considering burying my head in the sand... That anger should be directed towards Brown and his Third Way proponents, not my beliefs as a Socialist: Therefore I am afraid that the party will always maintain my loyalty so long as it is the only remotely leftist party that remains electable.
As for "screwing up the country": You call me self-loathing? Do you read the Sun every morning and have a little raaage about all the damn immigants, da bankas and da Empeez expenzez? Maybe it would be prudent to cast your mind back to 1997 and think of everything we've gained, Major hardly left the nation in the best condition. If you're going to whine about "Broken Britain" then 1. I'd ask you if it's really altogether that bad, funny enough you can actually walk the streets and 2. If you can honestly tell me that the "disgusting, dirty underclasses" are kept as benefit claimers by Labour, who've introduced pretty nasty legislation that requires you to actively find work within 6 months? A friend of mine is going through that now and they literally watch his every move.
It's so fashionable to fling blame for every problem at the incumbent government, especially when the majority of the press is opposed to it. Thirteen years is a long time, a long time for people to get bored and attribute mistakes to the state and, of course, for random events to pop to the surface such as Civil Servants leaving laptops on the train... How did you feel in 1997? What would you say attracted your attention elsewhere? A media equivalent of a fluttering butterfly? Like it or not, Labour was democratically elected three times.
As for my parents, they, as far as I know, only voted for Labour the first time this election, having been LibDem voters beforehand with my dad even voting Tory many years ago. If you want to attribute some kind of stereotype to me, go for "Middle Class kid all independent for the first time! Whaaay politics! Whaaay Unions!"
We're in a financial crisis which people can't expect a free ride through: If you have the ability to pay then you must, taxes should be raised and people forced to bear the brunt for their fellow man, Brits love to conjure up this phantom of "The Blitz Spirit" and yet when faced with the prospect of actually having to endure losses to assist others they shirk away. I recently had the pleasure of listening to Eddie Izzard for the second time thanks to my party and he flat out said to one question that he is happy to pay higher taxes temporarily.
What's wrong with Tactical Voting? I shan't do it again since I went to bed with Clegg and woke up with Cameron, but are you going to tell me that I should have voted Labour in Wokingham? Look up the damn figures, man! I figured the only constructive course of action was to attempt to deny Cameron a seat, which of course failed.. what with it being Wokingham... but I had to vote out of principle, as I believe that anyone who doesn't vote has no right to whine about anything remotely political. Ever.
My upping the French, as I explained, was a deliberate choice to simply grind the tits of me fellow Englishmen Honestly I don't see how we can say we're better than them... Maybe a non-power, but certainly not our historical rivals...
Also, please offer clarification: Is *not* believing our country is the best in Europe "self-hating"?
Henners, did you actually say that Britain isnt that bad because we could WALK THE STREETS?
What the hell do you think we used to do in 1997?! Get escorted to work by the green berets?
I like Ireland in some ways. I think it is potentially a great country. Unfortunately it has many, many flaws that I do sort of find unacceptable. The acceptance of corruption, disregard for the landscape and environment, anti-intellectual streak and dyed in the wool voting patterns really get to me. Sadly, I'm pretty certain that things will be roughly the same (maybe slightly better) wherever I go. I do have a particularly deep dislike for the people who kept Fianna Fáil in power for so long with their destructive policies, and especially those who voted Progressive Democrat. I really do sincerely hope that things have gone badly for them. Which is not a very nice thing to hope, at all.
Henners91 wrote:As for "screwing up the country": You call me self-loathing? Do you read the Sun every morning and have a little raaage about all the damn immigants, da bankas and da Empeez expenzez? Maybe it would be prudent to cast your mind back to 1997 and think of everything we've gained, Major hardly left the nation in the best condition. If you're going to whine about "Broken Britain" then 1. I'd ask you if it's really altogether that bad, funny enough you can actually walk the streets and 2. If you can honestly tell me that the "disgusting, dirty underclasses" are kept as benefit claimers by Labour, who've introduced pretty nasty legislation that requires you to actively find work within 6 months? A friend of mine is going through that now and they literally watch his every move.
How old were you in 1997? Is the '91' in your username a reflection of your DOB? How do you know what we have and haven't gained in real terms? It isn't 'nasty' to expect someone to find work in half a year.
It's so fashionable to fling blame for every problem at the incumbent government, especially when the majority of the press is opposed to it. Thirteen years is a long time, a long time for people to get bored and attribute mistakes to the state and, of course, for random events to pop to the surface such as Civil Servants leaving laptops on the train...
Yeah, because it has nothing to do with two foreign wars, massive overspending, increased bureaucracy, forcing the Lisbon treaty down our necks, immigration the highest it's ever been and the worst financial crisis since WWII.
But hey, I'm just fashionable.
We're in a financial crisis which people can't expect a free ride through: If you have the ability to pay then you must, taxes should be raised and people forced to bear the brunt for their fellow man, Brits love to conjure up this phantom of "The Blitz Spirit" and yet when faced with the prospect of actually having to endure losses to assist others they shirk away. I recently had the pleasure of listening to Eddie Izzard for the second time thanks to my party and he flat out said to one question that he is happy to pay higher taxes temporarily.
Let me get this straight - Labour taxes us up the arse, wastes all the money, and your answer is 'put taxes up'? Erm, hello? The Civil Service is bloated beyond all sensible proportions and we spend BILLIONS on benefits - in some parts of the UK the Public Sector makes up 70% of the economy! If that wasn't bad enough, it's not even working! All those people the Labour Party promised to lift out of poverty... the gap between the richest and the poorest is higher than when Labour took over, and there are more people officially living in poverty now.
Yep that's my date of birth, however I'd like to think that by age 19 I've learned to read about the past...
The Iraq war I was against, but that's not going to make me fling my ideology out of the window and decide that the Tories (who *also backed the war*) would be better for the country, nor would I choose the LibDems for my aforementioned reasons. As for Europe, I think my opinions would probably leave you assuming I'm pro-EU, so to be honest I'm not exactly that big on the idea of a referendum , as for immigration: Since the idea that you can arrive and start claiming benefits is yet another right wing fantasy, I'm going to assume that in order to survive immigrants (supposing they do not turn to crime) actually have to get a job... how horrid. Not to say that I deny there are associated problems with lack of availability of work or money leaving the country, but the points system Labour proposed was supported by a House of Lords Commission under Lord Wakeham... I don't see why it's such a contentious issue, anyone (especially members of the EU) should have the right to settle where they wish provided they meet the country's criteria.
"Civil Service is bloated": Clearly you're a proponent of the fallacy that we can somehow eliminate the deficit by cutting down on "waste": What party wouldn't? Since when have parties run on the platform "Waste is a good thing!"? We hear horror stories about recreation rooms and such but ultimately that's not what's costing the money, even several million is just a drop in the water. Taxation and cuts are how we're cutting the deficit, don't kid yourself. Second, I'd attribute the wage gap to our wonderful capitalistic system (but that's a rant nobody can take seriously, so...), a gap doesn't betray numerical figures, does it? Tell me, how many people have risen through the classes whereas minorities forming polar opposites moved apart? Even if there was a severe problem, would I vote for a party that doesn't even pursue Labour's rhetorical agenda?
Immigration is not the highest it's ever been; it's gone down over the past two years
But let's move this to PMs, this is OT.
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mattyrm wrote:Henners, did you actually say that Britain isnt that bad because we could WALK THE STREETS?
What the hell do you think we used to do in 1997?! Get escorted to work by the green berets?
Nope, I'm simply addressing the ludicrousness of the notion that this country has become broken under Labour... chavs, we have to admit, are a rare sight in our cosy neighbourhoods... But hey, I'm middle class.
Henners91 wrote:Nope, I'm simply addressing the ludicrousness of the notion that this country has become broken under Labour... chavs, we have to admit, are a rare sight in our cosy neighbourhoods... But hey, I'm middle class.
This is why there's no point taking this to PM, or even any further. You've only READ about the real world. The rest of us have to put up with OBEYING THE FORUM POSTING RULES !
Move out of your parent's house and get some life, kidda. Move to Salford and tell me there's nothing to worry about.
Henners91 wrote:...but that's not going to make me fling my ideology out of the window ...
Ideology is considered a pejorative description of any given position within the context of serious debate. If you admit to having an ideology, you admit to being blind to alternatives.
Henners91 wrote:Nope, I'm simply addressing the ludicrousness of the notion that this country has become broken under Labour... chavs, we have to admit, are a rare sight in our cosy neighbourhoods... But hey, I'm middle class.
Move out of your parent's house and get some life, kidda. Move to Salford and tell me there's nothing to worry about.
I wonder if your view's a majority 'un... y'know, since Hazel Blears got reelected 'n' all...
How low did you have to rummage through your vocabulary sack to find that vulgarity? I shan't deny my class... I never have, never will.
dogma wrote:Here's another reason.
Henners91 wrote:...but that's not going to make me fling my ideology out of the window ...
Ideology is considered a pejorative description of any given position within the context of serious debate. If you admit to having an ideology, you admit to being blind to alternatives.
Surely the same could be said of party membership? An ideology is chosen by an individual because they believe that their ideas roughly fit well together with an established group of like-minded individuals, just like in a party... And yet people still defect, how could they if they were "blind to ideas"? I've argued in my fair share of debates, read what I've read and experienced whatever limited amounts (and I *know* how much y'all like to stress *how* limited, since you're veterans of the world 'n' all) and arrived at my conclusion: I'm sure that when my wages come in I'll start voting Tory, or the next time I'm mugged I'll decide not to think about the social/economic motivations (and I did) and rather blame it on the underclass of THE DAMN YOBBOS.
Henners91 wrote:...but that's not going to make me fling my ideology out of the window ...
Ideology is considered a pejorative description of any given position within the context of serious debate. If you admit to having an ideology, you admit to being blind to alternatives.
Considered by who? He is just stating that he won't haphazardly throw out his way of thinking. He never stated he wouldn't listen to anything. BTW Henners I don't think I've ever defended somebody I disagree with on so many topics. Kudos on that one.
Henners91 wrote:
Surely the same could be said of party membership?
No, not necessarily. In certain instances you may find that a given party is sufficiently narrow in focus so as to encompass only a single ideological position, but that is extremely rare, and may even be impossible. Even a group as narrowly focused as the American Greens will feature many different ideological positions.
Henners91 wrote:
An ideology is chosen by an individual because they believe that their ideas roughly fit well together with an established group of like-minded individuals, just like in a party...
Yes, and the people that 'choose' ideologies in a manner akin to choosing a breakfast cereal are blind to alternatives. They only see monolithic bodies which they must wholly embrace, or wholly ignore.
Henners91 wrote:
And yet people still defect, how could they if they were "blind to ideas"?
The people who 'defect' are not necessarily ideologues, unless they actually consider themselves to be defectors. You're confusing the issue by looking at this in terms of partisanship.
Henners91 wrote:
I've argued in my fair share of debates, read what I've read and experienced whatever limited amounts (and I *know* how much y'all like to stress *how* limited, since you're veterans of the world 'n' all) and arrived at my conclusion: I'm sure that when my wages come in I'll start voting Tory, or the next time I'm mugged I'll decide not to think about the social/economic motivations (and I did) and rather blame it on the underclass of THE DAMN YOBBOS.
You're arguing against a strawman, well, several strawmen. This is what makes ideology a pejorative in academic circles. When all you see are contiguous bodies of thought the only possible method of processing differences arises from stereotypes.
At the same time, attacking a poster because of their percieved youth and inexperience is pretty poor. Not that you were doing that Dogma, that's more for Albatross.
Attacks like that make it too easy for people to get distracted from the meat of the debate, which is actually pretty interesting stuff.
Academics, analysts, researchers, etc. No one admits to possessing an ideology if they wish to be taken seriously. Its an external definition for reference, not an internal definition for advocacy.
rocklord2004 wrote:
He is just stating that he won't haphazardly throw out his way of thinking. He never stated he wouldn't listen to anything.
I never said that he did. All I did was explain what the word means. If Henners didn't intend to express that sentiment, then he could clarify his position. However, based on his reply, I would say that he chose the correct word.
In any case, ideology, as Henners used the term, is not a 'way of thinking' but a set of immutable political values. A way of thinking deals necessarily in intellectual methodology, which is not something that ideology incorporates.
Ah. We have another case of me and you using different definitions of the same word. Carry on then since I really don't want to get into yet another pointless debate with you over who is attempting to use what variation of a word. Best of luck to ya Henners in dealing with the arbitrary dictionary.
Henners91 wrote:Nope, I'm simply addressing the ludicrousness of the notion that this country has become broken under Labour... chavs, we have to admit, are a rare sight in our cosy neighbourhoods... But hey, I'm middle class.
This is why there's no point taking this to PM, or even any further. You've only READ about the real world. The rest of us have to put up with patronising midle-class c**ts like you telling us that what we are actually seeing take place in our neighbourhoods is really all in our imagination.
Move out of your parent's house and get some life, kidda. Move to Salford and tell me there's nothing to worry about.
I wonder if your view's a majority 'un... y'know, since Hazel Blears got reelected 'n' all...
Which tells you all you need to know - that morons will vote for anyone, no matter how corrupt and incompetent, as long as there's a reasonable chance they'll protect their benefits. I don't live in Salford by the way. But it's a dump, as are many northern Labour 'strongholds'. That's what happens when you can claim alcoholism as sufficient reason to be on Incapacity Benefit. That's what happens when people feel 'entitled' to claim as much as they can. This isn't a few 'bad apples', as I'm sure the spiffing chaps down at your local university's Nelson Mandela Bar would have you believe - it's generational. Large numbers of kids are claiming benefits as soon as they are able. How do I know this? Because I grew up in that culture. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE, I grew up with did the same thing - to us it was free money. None of us worked, and it isn't an isolated problem specific to Middlesbrough. Why is it that there are so many council estates? And why are they overflowing? Why do we (apparently) need to build MORE of them?
If you have detected a note of irritation in my posts it's because you have the temerity to post patronising and sarcastic statements about subjects you clearly know nothing about. 'Cast your mind back to 1997'? Are you fething serious? You would have been 6, 7 years old at most! It's easy to champion the 'little guy' when you don't live next door to him - something 'sensitive' middle-class students seem to have a habit of doing. You can act all sarky about people like me villifying chavs, but kids from the neighbourhood I grew up in aren't sitting around reading Gramsci complaining about how the 'system' is unfairly stacked against them - they're nicking the dinner money from kids like you. Don't feel too sorry for them.
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Da Boss wrote:At the same time, attacking a poster because of their percieved youth and inexperience is pretty poor. Not that you were doing that Dogma, that's more for Albatross.
Attacks like that make it too easy for people to get distracted from the meat of the debate, which is actually pretty interesting stuff.
I'm not 'attacking' him for his youth, so much as his hubris. I wouldn't presume to tell people about events they lived THROUGH, in areas they lived IN, if I had only read about it.
Hang on... aren't you in Sheffield? Isn't that Clegg's seat?
No. Sheffield isn't a constituency, just like Manchester isn't. 'Sheffield Hallam' is Clegg's constituency, I don't live there. None of the seats in the Sheffield area changed hands during the recent election.
ing speak for yourself!
