Hey folks! I had an issue that came up in a game - was being discussed in a battle report thread of mine and driving it downhill so I thought it better moved here:

Picture this scenario in a tournament:

Ork player has a battlewagon on the field. Dark Eldar player has a raider on the field. It is the Dark Eldar player's turn to move. The raider can move 24" per turn. DE wants to be outside of the charge range of the contents of the battlewagon, which could be up to 30" if played right.

The DE player measures 24" ahead (maximum move range), notes that the battlewagon is 19" away along that 24" move, then moves 12" backwards to end up 31" away.

Your thoughts?

Yes, it is perfectly fine to do this, though technically what you must do is this:
1) Declare you are moving the Vehicle.
2) Measure the vehicles move as far as you wish, up to it's maximum allowed move of course.
3) You now know that this is x" from the starting point.
4) As per page 11 of the Main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, which states "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all", you are now entitled to decide to move it in another direction.
5) You now place the vehicle at it's original starting point and measure in a different direction, then move the vehicle there.

tl'dr You can essentially pre-measure in the movement phase up to a units maximum move.

Fine stop whining or fine but shady? You have to vote too!

im at work so i dont have my book handy, but i was under the impression you picked a direction, declared your speed (or distance you want to move), measure that range, then move the vehicle. measuring a range before hand, then moving a completly diffrent direction....that seems wrong. i didnt vote because im unsure... but just my 2 pennies to the mix.

It's legal but to digress, how are you getting 30" charge range out of a B-wagon?

13" move (red paint), 2" disembark to the back of the base, 6" fleet move, 6" assault. 27" max to the back of the base, on a darn lucky roll. What am I missing?

DarthSpader wrote:im at work so i dont have my book handy, but i was under the impression you picked a direction, declared your speed (or distance you want to move), measure that range, then move the vehicle. measuring a range before hand, then moving a completly diffrent direction....that seems wrong. i didnt vote because im unsure... but just my 2 pennies to the mix.

Nope. The rule on page 11 very clearly states: "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all."

NuggzTheNinja wrote:It's legal but to digress, how are you getting 30" charge range out of a B-wagon?

13" move (red paint), 2" disembark to the back of the base, 6" fleet move, 6" assault. 27" max to the back of the base, on a darn lucky roll. What am I missing?

You have Ghazgul, who is on a 40mm base, so you have 13", +2 from disembarking, +2" from the base, +6 with Ghazes auto 6, Plus between 1 and 6 for Assault (he has Mega Armour) and also if he pulls the Rotate trick to gain another 2" or so, that's an easy 30".

well then it would seem to be legal just as you've quoted. somewhat cheesy....but fine. completley OT, but what im wondering is: what was in the raider that the DE player didnt want assaulted? usually DE are faster and better at CC then orks, or at least what i think are the ideal raider mounted units (whyches, incubi, etc)... even if you do charge his raider, you hit on 6's, at wich point his guys hop out (or untangle from the wreck) and assault (or rapid fire), probally wiping or at least severely beating down the orks standing around.... so what was he worried about?

Got it, thanks Gwar!.

Good, you moved the thread. I was posting in your battle report just as it was locked.

Legal? Yes. Shady? Yes. In fact, so shady that I agree that Clay had the right be a little miffed. I would have been too. Imagine this:

You have a squad that may or may not be in assault range. You also have a Devastator Squad that is some ways away. You fire your Devastator squad at the unit that the assaulting unit is about to charge and, as you lay down your tape measure, you make sure to take note of how far away your assaulting unit is away from the enemy unit. Oooh, 7" away. Won't be able to assault, might as well rapid fire.

Legal? Sure. Frowned upon? Definitely. I think it's shady. Your intent was to avoid being assaulted, not move. You weren't measuring to see if you would move that far. You were measuring to see how far you needed to be away to not get assaulted. If your intent was to move backward, then why measure 24" toward the Battlewagon? That's pre-measuring anyway you slice it. It may be legal, but I would be in the same mindset that Clay was in. It's taking a rule and turning it on its ear for your advantage, which is neither friendly nor sportsmanlike.

DarthSpader wrote:well then it would seem to be legal just as you've quoted. somewhat cheesy....but fine. completley OT, but what im wondering is: what was in the raider that the DE player didnt want assaulted? usually DE are faster and better at CC then orks, or at least what i think are the ideal raider mounted units (whyches, incubi, etc)... even if you do charge his raider, you hit on 6's, at wich point his guys hop out (or untangle from the wreck) and assault (or rapid fire), probally wiping or at least severely beating down the orks standing around.... so what was he worried about?

The contents aren't relevant to the discussion, just the idea of measuring like this. And....it was either an empty raider or a raider with 5 wyches. Why take the chance of getting hit on 6+ when you could just not get hit at all?

puma713 wrote:That's pre-measuring anyway you slice it..

Yes, but it's LEGAL pre measuring.

Would you also be "miffed" if someone took -giggles- Flash Gits, and fire them first and used their Gitfinders to legally pre measure to every enemy unit, even ones "clearly" out of range?

It's still pre measuring, but it's 110% allowed by the rules, as is "pre measuring" with other units movements.

The rules seem to specifically allow this. I would only consider this shady if you measured more than the maximum movement allowed by the vehicle.

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:That's pre-measuring anyway you slice it..

Would you also be "miffed" if someone took -snicker- Flash Gits, and fire them first and used their Gitfinders to legally pre measure to every enemy unit, even ones "clearly" out of range?

Yep. You wouldn't? That's no different than using bolters to fire at a Devastator Squad 48" away, knowing they'll miss, but wanting to get a measurement of how far everything else is away from them.

zeshin wrote:The rules seem to specifically allow this. I would only consider this shady if you measured more than the maximum movement allowed by the vehicle.

Not only would I find this shady, I would also find it highly against the rules.

I would then hit you with a Bacon and Jam sandwich, as is the punishment for cheating around these parts..

It's legal, but is (IMO) intended to allow you to see where the vehicle could move to, not to allow you to pre-measure ranges for other things.

So if you're doing it purely to see where the raider can move, that's fine. If you're doing it purely to take advantage of the measurement allowance so that you can move out of range of an attack... Nope, that's shady.

Of course, there's no way to enforce a rule based on an opponent's motivation... That's entirely up to the player themselves.

puma713 wrote:Yep. You wouldn't? That's no different than using bolters to fire at a Devastator Squad 48" away, knowing they'll miss, but wanting to get a measurement of how far everything else is away from them.

Of course I wouldn't. They are using the rules properly, so why would I get miffed? I may as well get annoyed that Bolters are S4 and my enemies Pulse Rifles are S5, or that a Flush beats a Pair when I am playing Poker.

Of course, YMMV, and I can understand why you would consider it shady.

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:Yep. You wouldn't? That's no different than using bolters to fire at a Devastator Squad 48" away, knowing they'll miss, but wanting to get a measurement of how far everything else is away from them.

Of course I wouldn't. They are using the rules properly, so why would I get miffed? I may as well get annoyed that Bolters are S4 and my enemies Pulse Rifles are S5, or that a Flush beats a Pair when I am playing Poker.

That's the difference between RAW players and RAI players. The RAW players don't care about the spirit of the game, as long as they can squeeze an extra inch out of a squad or make sure that they win. (Or choice RAW players anyway.) So, I guess you don't mind me measuring from bolters at the back of the field to your units in your deployment, so I know how far I need to move my Land Raider to assault out of it and still get you? I mean, the bolters will miss. . but I had to measure!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Dash, I know that you don't give a flip about what I think about you or the way you play your games, but I usually enjoy your batreps. I don't even play orks, but I enjoy reading your games because they are informative, easy to follow and usually pretty by-the-book. This batrep was the only one that I've ever disliked and it was all because of that move.

puma713 wrote:That's the difference between RAW players and RAI players. The RAW players don't care about the spirit of the game, as long as they can squeeze an extra inch out of a squad or make sure that they win. (Or choice RAW players anyway.) So, I guess you don't mind me measuring from bolters at the back of the field to your units in your deployment, so I know how far I need to move my Land Raider to assault out of it and still get you? I mean, the bolters will miss. . but I had to measure!

I do care about the spirit of the game. That's why I spent hundreds of hours writing my Unofficial FAQs.

However, when I play the game, if you want to play by the rules, I have no right to get annoyed or to stop you. And no, I would have no problem with you measuring your Devastators bolters from the back of the field, as you are permitted to, nay, you are REQUIRED to, measure the distance every time you fire.

Gwar! wrote:
And no, I would have no problem with you measuring your Devastators bolters from the back of the field, as you are permitted to, nay, you are REQUIRED to, measure the distance every time you fire.

Quick nitpick - I was talking about measuring my normal bolters (read Tac squad) to your Devastators. And that's in line with the "spirit of the game?" I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. By following the rules of the game, it inherently breaks another rule. I don't believe that is in the spirit of the game, just like I don't believe measuring forward (with no intention of moving that direction, solely for measuring for your advantage) for your movement and then moving backward is in the spirit of the game.

That's the difference between RAW players and RAI players. The RAW players don't care about the spirit of the game, as long as they can squeeze an extra inch out of a squad or make sure that they win. (Or choice RAW players anyway.) So, I guess you don't mind me measuring from bolters at the back of the field to your units in your deployment, so I know how far I need to move my Land Raider to assault out of it and still get you? I mean, the bolters will miss. . but I had to measure!

personally i play as RAW, and frankly if there was nothing in range for me to shoot at and/or there was a high priority target at the back of the table, then sure, i'd consider it. Though for your example, i'd only measure the max range of the weapon.

Just remember its a game of strategy.

Seriphis wrote:

That's the difference between RAW players and RAI players. The RAW players don't care about the spirit of the game, as long as they can squeeze an extra inch out of a squad or make sure that they win. (Or choice RAW players anyway.) So, I guess you don't mind me measuring from bolters at the back of the field to your units in your deployment, so I know how far I need to move my Land Raider to assault out of it and still get you? I mean, the bolters will miss. . but I had to measure!

personally i play as RAW, and frankly if there was nothing in range for me to shoot at and/or there was a high priority target at the back of the table, then sure, i'd consider it. Though for your example, i'd only measure the max range of the weapon.

Just remember its a game of strategy.

Then I trust you don't count a Doom of Malantai as a zoanthrope, a Swarmlord as a Hive Tyrant, and you abide by all the other RAW silliness in that RAW fun thread? I think there is a vast separation between these two types of players.

Anyway, I'm not going to get bogged down and derail the thread/poll. You know my stance: yes it's legal. It's about the most shady thing you could do (along with measuring a 12" weapon to see how far something could move or assault to the back of the field) and I'm not sure we'd ever be playing again. But like I said above, that's your perogative. My respect for you as a sportsman and as a general would have dropped a few pegs as well, but in the other thread, you said that you wouldn't do it again.

Edit: Yes, it's a game of strategy. It's also one of fun, for both parties (or supposed to be). And if it's one you're so hellbent on winning that you have to resort to those types of means, then you can have the win, you great General, you. I'll go play elsewhere.

puma713 wrote:
Then I trust you don't count a Doom of Malantai as a zoanthrope, a Swarmlord as a Hive Tyrant, and you abide by all the other RAW silliness in that RAW fun thread? I think there is a vast separation between these two types of players.

I'd prefer to keep this about this particular topic, and I'm watching the poll.

I'm pretty sure I wrote this above....

But this isn't a regular tactic. This was something that presented itself in a unique situation, and I thought, "Oh! Brilliant Idea!" And my opponent was like, "That's not cool...." And I was like, "Why not?" And he was like, "Its against the spirit of the rules...." and I was like, "Erm..."

My gaming habits roll with the majority. As an ork player, before the Deffrolla FAQ, instead of arguing about it with everyone, I just didn't take Deffrollas. For the Atlanta event I just attended, I called ahead to find out their ruling on Nightmare Dolls. Whatever is "the way things are" I accept and roll with.

This was just something that had never come up before with me.

I'm not for or against doing this, just curious since I did it and got a negative reaction that I wasn't expecting.

Dashofpepper wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Then I trust you don't count a Doom of Malantai as a zoanthrope, a Swarmlord as a Hive Tyrant, and you abide by all the other RAW silliness in that RAW fun thread? I think there is a vast separation between these two types of players.

I'd prefer to keep this about this particular topic, and I'm watching the poll.

I'm pretty sure I wrote this above....

And I'm pretty sure I just said that I wasn't continuing on that line because it might derail the poll/thread.

Dashofpepper wrote:But this isn't a regular tactic. This was something that presented itself in a unique situation, and I thought, "Oh! Brilliant Idea!" And my opponent was like, "That's not cool...." And I was like, "Why not?" And he was like, "Its against the spirit of the rules...." and I was like, "Erm..."

My gaming habits roll with the majority. As an ork player, before the Deffrolla FAQ, instead of arguing about it with everyone, I just didn't take Deffrollas. For the Atlanta event I just attended, I called ahead to find out their ruling on Nightmare Dolls. Whatever is "the way things are" I accept and roll with.

This was just something that had never come up before with me.

I'm not for or against doing this, just curious since I did it and got a negative reaction that I wasn't expecting.

And I'd present the same situation to you that I did to Gwar! You'd be okay with me measuring my bolters that obviously can't hit your Raiders/Ravagers, just to see what kind of range I have on the rest of my weapons and if they can or can't hit, along with how far you can move next turn, assault and everything else about the game that I can glean from measuring my army to your army? Because that's what that allows me to do and I'm fairly certain that's not in the "spirit of the rules". After all, if it was, why not just allow premeasuring all the time?

Gwar! wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:im at work so i dont have my book handy, but i was under the impression you picked a direction, declared your speed (or distance you want to move), measure that range, then move the vehicle. measuring a range before hand, then moving a completly diffrent direction....that seems wrong. i didnt vote because im unsure... but just my 2 pennies to the mix.

Nope. The rule on page 11 very clearly states: "It is perfectly fine to measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else (even the opposite way entirely!) or decide not to move it at all."

NuggzTheNinja wrote:It's legal but to digress, how are you getting 30" charge range out of a B-wagon?

13" move (red paint), 2" disembark to the back of the base, 6" fleet move, 6" assault. 27" max to the back of the base, on a darn lucky roll. What am I missing?

You have Ghazgul, who is on a 40mm base, so you have 13", +2 from disembarking, +2" from the base, +6 with Ghazes auto 6, Plus between 1 and 6 for Assault (he has Mega Armour) and also if he pulls the Rotate trick to gain another 2" or so, that's an easy 30".

Bolded part is what I want to talk about here Gwar. I agree 100% with what you posted above. Too bad that Dash wasn't doing that at all. He had no intention of moving forward, said as much, then used the measurement to move out of charge range. The rule you quoted specifically mentions changing your mind. Now, of course most times you can't tell if someone is really changing their mind or not, but in this case, its perfectly clear what his intent was, and what he used the rule for. Neither of those things are mentioned as legal in your rules quote.



Clay

Primarch wrote:Bolded part is what I want to talk about here Gwar. I agree 100% with what you posted above. Too bad that Dash wasn't doing that at all. He had no intention of moving forward, said as much, then used the measurement to move out of charge range. The rule you quoted specifically mentions changing your mind. Now, of course most times you can't tell if someone is really changing their mind or not, but in this case, its perfectly clear what his intent was, and what he used the rule for. Neither of those things are mentioned as legal in your rules quote.

Well, all he has to say is "I did change my mind", and it is legal.

Ahh, so we are talking about a hypothetical, not the actual event in question?


Right, then I agree, hypothetically a person is legally allowed to measure HIS movement, then change his mind.


Realistically for the event in question, it was not legal, no question about it. So the instances need to be examined when they occur, not just a blanket "all movement pre-measuring is perfectly legal" stance.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is my main problem with this.


The rule on pre-measuring that Gwar quotes only mentions measuring YOUR movement. Not your opponents. There is also a rule about not being allowed to pre-measure things. If you put that together you get to this;


If you use the tape measure for ANYTHING other than measuring your own move, then you are breaking said rules. Note, this point is to the relevant discussion, not shooting etc. So if you put the tape measure down, and you "measure" my assault range under the guise of seeing how far you can move, then you are cheating, period. The rules do not allow for this type of measuring.



Clay

Dont get why so much is said on this. The answer is yes.

You declare your moving in a direction (to be safe if they want to rule laywer - technically you can measure the total distance it can move in a complete 360 degree arc ),measure the 24" in the direction and move anywhere in that range.
Although mark if it is above 6,12 or 18inchs (for later use in firing and that.)

Totally legal thing to do.

As soon as you start getting bogged down by what others think is lame or shady you are opening a huge can of worms.
Play by the RAW whenever possible and both players will adjust after a few games. You do not want to gimp yourself to appease some people, only to travel and have others do it to you. You will whine because "that's not how we play it back in ______" and it just gets on everyones nerves.

I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Viper217 wrote:You do not want to gimp yourself to appease some people, only to travel and have others do it to you. You will whine because "that's not how we play it back in ______" and it just gets on everyones nerves.

Over measuring for what some would call an unfair advantage is "gimping" yourself? I know plenty of people who don't play this way and still take home top prizes. And I'll agree, it does open a can of worms when you add in RAI - but it should. The game isn't a cold, unfeeling game. It's supposed to be a match between two gentleman-like sportsmen. Feth your opponent - do what it takes to win - that's the mentality that pervades the tournament scene.

The thing is, a can of worms is opened either way. If you play that way, then I can technically measure anything I want. As I've said before, I can measure for bolter fire to the back of your deployment (or wherever your farthest unit is away) and start taking notes of how far I need to Deep Strike next turn to not go off the table/hit an opponent's unit. I can measure exactly how far it will take you to get to me and vice versa. I can measure for other weapons. I can measure for just about anything (aka pre-measure) with a simple bolter fire that wouldn't hit anyway - so it doesn't cost me anything.

Or, you can -not- play this way and avoid all these potential problems. What I'm getting at is playing this way (and trying to defend it as the "spirit of the game") opens more problems than it solves.

Now that I think about it, no one around here does this - the movement thing or the shooting thing. If it was such a non-issue, why doesn't everyone do it? Because it's frowned upon.

Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Because it is.

Viper217 wrote:You will whine because "that's not how we play it back in ______" and it just gets on everyones nerves.

And how is that any different than going somewhere where this is completely unheard of - cheating in some eyes - and they say, well that rule isn't welcome here. Then what? You still whine and say "That's where we play it back in ___" and you're still changing the way you play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Because it is.

It's legal to measure "charge range" and not "movement" in your movement phase? Awesome, I'm gonna start measuring charge range in every movement phase before I go into my shooting phase.

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Because it is.

Can you point me to the relevant rules quote that says I can pre-measure my opponents moves/charges? If so that would be helpful.



Clay

It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

In Short, there is a lot of vitriol in this thread for people who follow the rules, simply because one or two people don't agree about the "spirit" of the rules (whatever that is).

All I can say is, the rules are clear.

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Because it is.

Can you point me to the relevant rules quote that says I can pre-measure my opponents moves/charges? If so that would be helpful.



Clay

What it says is that you can measure your own movement. If you just happen to measure in a direction that an enemy is in, and you just happen to know their charge range then son, you will know their charge range.

It is completely legal to measure in a 360 arc when moving, unlike when firing you must designate a squad first but then you measure and if you are out then hell you know but guessing how much closer you need to be. But then so does your opponent.

Also the spirit about the game is having fun. If I choose to have fun by winning using all the legal tricks then who are you (direction: People complaining about spirit of the game) to complain?

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

Gwar, you weren't there, so you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. NONE. You have no idea what Dash was doing, I do, he does. You are now doing nothing more than trolling, because you aren't adding to the rules debate, but blindly defending your friend Dash.

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.



Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

Gwar, you weren't there, so you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. NONE. You have no idea what Dash was doing, I do, he does. You are now doing nothing more than trolling, because you aren't adding to the rules debate, but blindly defending your friend Dash.

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.

I was unaware of your amazing telepathic abilities and the power to know exactly what Dash was thinking! Yes that is sarcasm.

I am not trolling. All I am saying is that what Dash was doing is 100% supported in the rules. Is it a "dick move" or "Shady"? Some say it is. I personally do not think it is.

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

Because it is.

Can you point me to the relevant rules quote that says I can pre-measure my opponents moves/charges? If so that would be helpful.



Clay

What it says is that you can measure your own movement. If you just happen to measure in a direction that an enemy is in, and you just happen to know their charge range then son, you will know their charge range.

It is completely legal to measure in a 360 arc when moving, unlike when firing you must designate a squad first but then you measure and if you are out then hell you know but guessing how much closer you need to be. But then so does your opponent.

Also the spirit about the game is having fun. If I choose to have fun by winning using all the legal tricks then who are you (direction: People complaining about spirit of the game) to complain?

The rule states you can measure your distance, not the other guy's movement. That's clear. Holding your tape measure out till you do the math on my movement is against the rules, not even the "spirit" any more, just basically against the rules.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

Gwar, you weren't there, so you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. NONE. You have no idea what Dash was doing, I do, he does. You are now doing nothing more than trolling, because you aren't adding to the rules debate, but blindly defending your friend Dash.

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.



Clay

You can't blame Gwar for being lied to he is explaining the rules on the situation as he reads it.
And if he still used the measurement from his unit to yours, aslong as it was equal to or under his units total movement then it is completely legal.

syanticraven wrote:

Also the spirit about the game is having fun. If I choose to have fun by winning using all the legal tricks then who are you (direction: People complaining about spirit of the game) to complain?

When your fun starts bearing on the fun of others. It's fun for me to smash your models on the ground! Who are you to complain? It's a game between two people. So many tournament-goers seem to have forgotten that.

Edit: For clarification. I'm not disagreeing that it's legal, so you can stop bringing that up. I know it's legal. I am someone who thinks that the game extends beyond RAW to incorporate a lot of other elements.

Hold up, Dash didn't tell me squat. I have no idea what happened, nor do I actually give two gaks. All I am doing is pointing out that Dash could do what is being described.

Perhaps the actual procedure was a little off, I admit that, but the actual practice of using a vehicles movement to pre-measure is 100% legal and irrefutable, no matter how "shady" you may think it is.

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

Gwar, you weren't there, so you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. NONE. You have no idea what Dash was doing, I do, he does. You are now doing nothing more than trolling, because you aren't adding to the rules debate, but blindly defending your friend Dash.

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.

I was unaware of your amazing telepathic abilities and the power to know exactly what Dash was thinking! Yes that is sarcasm.

I am not trolling. All I am saying is that what Dash was doing is 100% supported in the rules. Is it a "dick move" or "Shady"? Some say it is. I personally do not think it is.

Here you go again, clueless to the ACTUAL situation. I didn't have to read his mind Gwar, he told me what he was doing, as he was actually doing it on the table top. Again, get the facts of the situation straight, or stop defending your boy blindly, I tried to be rational about this, but it's going downhill fast dealing with you now. You don't even care what the situation was, only that you need to be on Dash's side to protect him or something. Newsflash, either you haven't asked him, or he has lied to you about what happened. That's about the only thing I can think of that has you defending the right to pre-measure your opponents moves, which was all Dash was doing.

To another point of yours;

I am not directing anything bad at anyone for disagreeing with me, but by saying that cheating is ok, well that's a different story. You are defending cheating, per the rules that YOU quoted, those are the times you can pre-measure, that did not apply to the situation.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

If you don't like it, don't play the game.

Or make a "house rule", but don't try and claim it's the rules, because it isn't.

Gwar, you weren't there, so you have no idea whatsoever what you are talking about. NONE. You have no idea what Dash was doing, I do, he does. You are now doing nothing more than trolling, because you aren't adding to the rules debate, but blindly defending your friend Dash.

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.

I was unaware of your amazing telepathic abilities and the power to know exactly what Dash was thinking! Yes that is sarcasm.

I am not trolling. All I am saying is that what Dash was doing is 100% supported in the rules. Is it a "dick move" or "Shady"? Some say it is. I personally do not think it is.

Here you go again, clueless to the ACTUAL situation. I didn't have to read his mind Gwar, he told me what he was doing, as he was actually doing it on the table top. Again, get the facts of the situation straight, or stop defending your boy blindly, I tried to be rational about this, but it's going downhill fast dealing with you now. You don't even care what the situation was, only that you need to be on Dash's side to protect him or something. Newsflash, either you haven't asked him, or he has lied to you about what happened. That's about the only thing I can think of that has you defending the right to pre-measure your opponents moves, which was all Dash was doing.

To another point of yours;

I am not directing anything bad at anyone for disagreeing with me, but by saying that cheating is ok, well that's a different story. You are defending cheating, per the rules that YOU quoted, those are the times you can pre-measure, that did not apply to the situation.


Clay

I think Gwar! is saying that measuring your opponent's move and charge range, masked as your own movement, is completely legal and in no way shady. And that's what the other agreeing pollsters are saying as well. I, like you Clay, am sort of blindsided by the WAAC thinking and am just glad that no one around here does it (although I live pretty close to Atlanta and I've played at Giga-Bites before. . .)

Gwar! wrote:Hold up, Dash didn't tell me squat. I have no idea what happened, nor do I actually give two gaks. All I am doing is pointing out that Dash could do what is being described.

Perhaps the actual procedure was a little off, I admit that, but the actual practice of using a vehicles movement to pre-measure is 100% legal and irrefutable, no matter how "shady" you may think it is.

I think reading comprehension is the problem here for you.


Please actually read this post.


I think pre-measuring your own movement is perfectly legal, and in line with the 40k rules as written. I also think using that rule to measure my units movement instead of your own is against the rules, and is indeed what happened here. If he had just been pre-measuring his own movement then I wouldn't have had a problem, but when he did this;


Pulls out tape measure to 24 inches. Place it right next to my Battlewagon, it extends about 4 or so inches past front edge of my wagon. Then he says aloud. Ok, right now I am 19 inches from your wagon, and I know your charge range is 27 inches, then I need to back up around 10-12 inches to make sure you can't charge me.

You tell me where the 40k rules allow you to pre-measure my move/charge range, and I will gladly agree with you.


Your rules quote does not say, you may pre-measure your movement range, and in the process if any enemy is in range, you may also use this time to pre-measure his move/charge range. If it did, then there would be no discussion on this.

By the way, I assumed he talked to you, since you posted above that you know what he did, and it was 100% legal. You then claimed that he "changed" his mind, again, not true. You then said I must be a mind reader to have figured out his intent. Again, not true, he told me.



Clay

Primarch wrote:Ahh, so we are talking about a hypothetical, not the actual event in question?


Right, then I agree, hypothetically a person is legally allowed to measure HIS movement, then change his mind.


Realistically for the event in question, it was not legal, no question about it. So the instances need to be examined when they occur, not just a blanket "all movement pre-measuring is perfectly legal" stance.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is my main problem with this.


The rule on pre-measuring that Gwar quotes only mentions measuring YOUR movement. Not your opponents. There is also a rule about not being allowed to pre-measure things. If you put that together you get to this;


If you use the tape measure for ANYTHING other than measuring your own move, then you are breaking said rules. Note, this point is to the relevant discussion, not shooting etc. So if you put the tape measure down, and you "measure" my assault range under the guise of seeing how far you can move, then you are cheating, period. The rules do not allow for this type of measuring.



Clay

I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Also the spirit about the game is having fun. If I choose to have fun by winning using all the legal tricks then who are you (direction: People complaining about spirit of the game) to complain?

When your fun starts bearing on the fun of others. It's fun for me to smash your models on the ground! Who are you to complain? It's a game between two people. So many tournament-goers seem to have forgotten that.

Edit: For clarification. I'm not disagreeing that it's legal, so you can stop bringing that up. I know it's legal. I am someone who thinks that the game extends beyond RAW to incorporate a lot of other elements.

That's outwidth the game and illegal to do so, as it is a crime. Id happily return the pleasure.
You have to understand that it's your problem if you don't like your opponents play style, sure everyone can get that dick of a guy that sits their smelling, telling you nothing other then how hes going to stomp all over you ect and sure I find them annoying too. But that's my problem, this guy came here to win and if he is a good player then he might just do that. He will never get a friendly off anyone but in a tournament you will always get they kind of people. Heck, its a tournament not everyone can be your best buddy.

Che-Vito wrote:
I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

Did you even read the batrep? He had a problem with it before it even affected him or the game. It's not like he is coming back and complaining about it now. He had a serious issue with it as soon as Dash laid down his tape measure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

syanticraven wrote:

You have to understand that it's your problem if you don't like your opponents play style, sure everyone can get that dick of a guy that sits their smelling, telling you nothing other then how hes going to stop all over you ect and sure I find them annoying too.

Smelling?

syanticraven wrote:
But that's my problem, this guy came here to win and if he is a good player then he might just do that. He will never get a friendly off anyone but in a tournament you will always get they kind of people.

True, and that's the problem with the tournament scene. Why do you think there are soft scores now? For fun?

syanticraven wrote:
Heck, its a tournament not everyone can be your best buddy.

I'm not your buddy. I'm not your acquaintance at all, actually. I'm your complete stranger.

puma713 wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

Did you even read the batrep? He had a problem with it before it even affected him or the game. It's not like he is coming back and complainig about it now. He had a serious issue with it as soon as Dash laid down his tape measure.

Also, I never started a thread talking about this. Dash has started 2 threads where HE brought this up. Please stop trolling and pay attention to the thread or stop wasting our time with your posts. If the question is asked, certainly I can come here and defend my position, yes?



Clay

Everyone breathe. Let's keep it civil, folks.

Gwar! wrote:It's not legal to directly measure them, but what Dash was doing, where he measures out the movement for one unit, and then changes his mind, is perfectly legal.

Except that the scenario outlined in the first post of this thread is not 'Measure the vehicle's movement, and then change your mind and move it elsewhere.'

What he is describing is measuring the vehicle's potential movement for the sole purpose of figuring out how far the other vehicle can follow him when he moves in the opposite direction.

And that's not on. Yes, technically legal if you dress it up as checking how far the vehicle can move... but he's freely admitted that the sole purpose for doing it is to pre-measure the other vehicle's movement. Not because he was actually considering moving in that direction.

Ok, so from what I am starting to glean, you are annoyed at the way he did it, rather than him doing it, or is it both?

Had Dash had done it properly, by measuring 24" from his Raider, and then extrapolating the distance from that, then changing his mind and moving it backwards (as he is perfectly entitled to do so), would you be annoyed?

After reading through this heated debate i want to chime in with my two cents regarding attitudes towards people who 'abuse the rules to win' (not literally quoted but seems to be the flavor of this thread)

Many wargamers have played, or at least heard of, Magic: The Gathering. This card game is governed by a myraid of criss-crossing complicated rules with timing involved, turn phases, priority, and then thousands of modifications on the rules based on specific card wordings. In THAT game, when someone succeeds by finding a great combo or just playing the rules well to their advantage every turn, they win, people shake hands, and walk away.

Now we segue to the table-top and WH40K. All of a sudden, because OUR game uses hand-painted miniature models we are expected to be 'hobbyists' instead of 'gamers'. We are expected to play with a loosened sense of things, because after all it's toy soldiers. I do not feel that way. I feel the game is as competitive as it is engrossing. I have spent many, many hours of my past year since i started 40k assembling, painting, and moving miniatures, and I love playing the game. I also love playing by the rules, as they are written, in the BRB. I have some issues with certain codex rules *cough DoM w/ no INV cough* but i can discuss issues like that pre-game with my opponent.

So, back on OT -- The fact that Dash had the mental capacity to calculate a simple subtraction problem when measuring his movement radius (REGARDLESS of his intent to move forward, back, or sideways) does not make him a cheater or shady player. He was being TACTICAL and trying to win, using the RULES to his advantage. I suggest all other players do the same, since the game's framework is the rules themselves. Dark Eldar do not win games by allowing themselves to be assaulted by a mob of boyz, nobz, gaunts, BAs, or anything. They are a darting-flitty-shoot and move sort of army and he was playing them to their strengths. Orks on the other hand need to charge across the board and block off avenues of escape before swarming their opponents and clubbing them through sheer numbers. Do not be surprised that a DE player is doing all he can to avoid CC, do not whine about but rather use your strengths and chase him down for another turn until there is nowhere to run.

I can understand being upset at being out-played, but why (edit) contribute to an (end edit) entire thread to try to get people on your side about it (when clearly looking at the poll they are not)?

/end rant-nerdrage-etc

insaniak wrote:And that's not on. Yes, technically legal if you dress it up as checking how far the vehicle can move... but he's freely admitted that the sole purpose for doing it is to pre-measure the other vehicle's movement. Not because he was actually considering moving in that direction.

Ok, I think I get it now.

So, if Dash had not stated his intent out loud, it would be a-ok? (From a "Shady/not shady" point of view. From a technical view you can state whatever you want, the rules still allow you to change your mind).

You can, but if someone used there movement measuring to figure out my charge distance, I'd have no problem with that since its technically legal. Of course I wouldn't know exactly how it went for you, but if its like that, it seems ok.

puma713 wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

Did you even read the batrep? He had a problem with it before it even affected him or the game. It's not like he is coming back and complaining about it now. He had a serious issue with it as soon as Dash laid down his tape measure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

syanticraven wrote:

You have to understand that it's your problem if you don't like your opponents play style, sure everyone can get that dick of a guy that sits their smelling, telling you nothing other then how hes going to stop all over you ect and sure I find them annoying too.

Smelling?

syanticraven wrote:
But that's my problem, this guy came here to win and if he is a good player then he might just do that. He will never get a friendly off anyone but in a tournament you will always get they kind of people.

True, and that's the problem with the tournament scene. Why do you think there are soft scores now? For fun?

syanticraven wrote:
Heck, its a tournament not everyone can be your best buddy.

I'm not your buddy. I'm not your acquaintance at all, actually. I'm your complete stranger.

Yeah smelling, have you never came across someone who actually had bad hygiene, or where you thinking I meant smiling? Because people are allowed to smile.
Yes for fun, that is exactly why they where created. If It wasn't fun no one would care.
I never said you where my buddy. I said not everyone at a tournament can be. And I didn't mean it in a literal sense either.

tetrisphreak wrote:After reading through this heated debate i want to chime in with my two cents regarding attitudes towards people who 'abuse the rules to win' (not literally quoted but seems to be the flavor of this thread)

Many wargamers have played, or at least heard of, Magic: The Gathering. This card game is governed by a myraid of criss-crossing complicated rules with timing involved, turn phases, priority, and then thousands of modifications on the rules based on specific card wordings. In THAT game, when someone succeeds by finding a great combo or just playing the rules well to their advantage every turn, they win, people shake hands, and walk away.

Now we segue to the table-top and WH40K. All of a sudden, because OUR game uses hand-painted miniature models we are expected to be 'hobbyists' instead of 'gamers'. We are expected to play with a loosened sense of things, because after all it's toy soldiers. I do not feel that way. I feel the game is as competitive as it is engrossing. I have spent many, many hours of my past year since i started 40k assembling, painting, and moving miniatures, and I love playing the game. I also love playing by the rules, as they are written, in the BRB. I have some issues with certain codex rules *cough DoM w/ no INV cough* but i can discuss issues like that pre-game with my opponent.

So, back on OT -- The fact that Dash had the mental capacity to calculate a simple subtraction problem when measuring his movement radius (REGARDLESS of his intent to move forward, back, or sideways) does not make him a cheater or shady player. He was being TACTICAL and trying to win, using the RULES to his advantage. I suggest all other players do the same, since the game's framework is the rules themselves. Dark Eldar do not win games by allowing themselves to be assaulted by a mob of boyz, nobz, gaunts, BAs, or anything. They are a darting-flitty-shoot and move sort of army and he was playing them to their strengths. Orks on the other hand need to charge across the board and block off avenues of escape before swarming their opponents and clubbing them through sheer numbers. Do not be surprised that a DE player is doing all he can to avoid CC, do not whine about but rather use your strengths and chase him down for another turn until there is nowhere to run.

I can understand being upset at being out-played, but why (edit) contribute to an (end edit) entire thread to try to get people on your side about it (when clearly looking at the poll they are not)?

/end rant-nerdrage-etc

Hmm, interesting point of view. Again, don't accuse me of coming here and being a whiny bitch, Dash started this thread, not I. I told him not to even because I knew it would blow up. However, when the facts are not listed properly and I was the only other guy there, shouldn't I say something?

Secondly, I still havent seen any rules that specifically allow you to pre-measure my stuff. I have seen rules that dis-allow this however. Can you provide a page number, if so, then I will gladly admit I am wrong and move on.


Clay

tetrisphreak wrote:

I can understand being upset at being out-played, but why (edit) contribute to an (end edit) entire thread to try to get people on your side about it (when clearly looking at the poll they are not)?

/end rant-nerdrage-etc

Again, Primarch didn't start the thread, Dash did. Secondly, as we've pointed out ad nauseum, by applying one rule, he broke another. So that's okay? That is what I was getting at with the shooting rules, even though the thread doesn't apply to shooting. I can use one rule to measure my bolters to your devastators to make sure that my Land Raider has enough range to get my guys into assault with another unit entirely, but then I've broken a rule by measuring my charge range in the movement phase.

@Gwar!: I know your situation wasn't directed at me, but yes, I'd have a much easier time swallowing it if he was using his own mental capacity to extrapolate the movement rather than brazenly placing the tape measure at the base of the battlewagon and saying, "Let's see, I know you can't move this far, so where do I have to be so you can't assault me?"

tetrisphreak wrote:Now we segue to the table-top and WH40K. All of a sudden, because OUR game uses hand-painted miniature models we are expected to be 'hobbyists' instead of 'gamers'. We are expected to play with a loosened sense of things, because after all it's toy soldiers.

That's not actually quite accurate. The reason for the difference in play style between Magic and 40K is nothing to do with the miniatures... it's to do with the fact that Magic is a game designed specifically for competitive play, while 40K is designed as a game of toy soldiers for a bit of light-hearted fun. The 40K ruleset has never been intended to be used for tournament play.

@ Primarch

Model A is on the table an unknown distance from model B. I own model A, you own Model B.

I measure model A's movement range (NO further) in a 360 degree arc, noting where the tape measure may or may not contact your model (model B) I note the distance in my head.

I then Move, as allowed by the rules, a certain distance exactly perpendicular to model B's location. No fouls, simply gameplay tactics. In the 40,000'th century, i'm sure vehicles have rangefinders. We have them now, on golf courses!

I will submit this: Had he placed the tape measure and measured from model B (yours) towards model A (mine) that is indeed illegal, because he is measuring FROM the incorrect unit. Was his tape measure starting from his model or yours?

I will retract and delete my rant if i was wrong.

Edit; @ insaniak -- there is nothing at all wrong with that. Not at all. I just have a competitive heart and prefer to play that way in all my hobbies/games i participate in. You should see me play tetris, haha. *end edit*

syanticraven wrote:
Yes for fun, that is exactly why they where created. If It wasn't fun no one would care.

Really? Just so the guy that gets his teeth kicked in can say he had fun because he got a 24 in Sportsmanship and a 21 in Painting? Or maybe it was to level the playing field for those that don't choose to be WAAC players. I'm not saying that I agree with soft scores. I actually prefer a tournament without them, but they weren't created so TO's could have something else to judge.

insaniak wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:Now we segue to the table-top and WH40K. All of a sudden, because OUR game uses hand-painted miniature models we are expected to be 'hobbyists' instead of 'gamers'. We are expected to play with a loosened sense of things, because after all it's toy soldiers.

That's not actually quite accurate. The reason for the difference in play style between Magic and 40K is nothing to do with the miniatures... it's to do with the fact that Magic is a game designed specifically for competitive play, while 40K is designed as a game of toy soldiers for a bit of light-hearted fun. The 40K ruleset has never been intended to be used for tournament play.

Have you seen the early sets? Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Revised etc. If that was designed for competitive play then I'm the Queen of Iceland. Though to be fair, Magic HAS morphed into a more competitive game over the years, and the tighter rules reflect that. Frankly I think 40k would do well to go down the same route, but that's for another time and place.

Gwar! wrote:So, if Dash had not stated his intent out loud, it would be a-ok?

Whether or not he stated his intentions out loud has no bearing on what those intentions were.

Here is where you RAW guys really need to think about things.


The rule allows you to pre-measure your own movement. Not my movement, not my charge range. So, doing the math in your head, or out loud, is still you using your tape measure to measure my movement/charge range during your turn. By straight RAW, how is this legal? Note, I don't think you can stop this sort of thing, but when you do it blatantly, you certainly aren't following the RAW.



Clay

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, if Dash had not stated his intent out loud, it would be a-ok?

Whether or not he stated his intentions out loud has no bearing on what those intentions were.

But how are we to determine what someone intentions are? Once we go down that route, the game just doesn't work anymore.

Magic shifted to competitive play when they released Mirrodin Block. All hell broke loose and I actually stopped playing after that (because i could not win, i admit it). I came back during Ravnica, the competition is still there but i stick to Sealed environments where I have a better chance of an even playing field. Then the game comes down to skill and foresight rather than net-decking

or, to relate to 40k and keep on-topic (partially) net-listing. (looking at you, Leafblower)

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, if Dash had not stated his intent out loud, it would be a-ok?

Whether or not he stated his intentions out loud has no bearing on what those intentions were.

Damnit, I always knew I'd be guilty of thoughtcrime one day...

Gwar! wrote:But how are we to determine what someone intentions are?

We can't. As I pointed out in my first response in this thread.

Gwar! wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, if Dash had not stated his intent out loud, it would be a-ok?

Whether or not he stated his intentions out loud has no bearing on what those intentions were.

But how are we to determine what someone intentions are? Once we go down that route, the game just doesn't work anymore.

Ahh, and here is the heart of the matter. Is it only cheating if we both know the intent? Or is it enough that you are using the measurement to measure my stuff and you know good and well thats what you are using it for? I would say the latter. If i am using my tape measure to measure your movement/charge range and that is my intent the whole time, then I am cheating. It doesn't matter if my opponent knows what my intent is, I would know.


No, you can't control that stuff, doesn't mean its not cheating though, pretty simple stuff.



Clay

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But how are we to determine what someone intentions are?

We can't. As I pointed out in my first response in this thread.

Exactly. Therefore we look to the rules. The Rules say you can measure then change your mind. Therefore, it is legal to measure 24" in one direction, then change your mind.

We don't know if he had any intention of moving 24" in that direction or not. All we do know is that the rules say you can do this.

@Primarch/Clay

The act of mentally figuring out what you can do on your turn is part of the game. Some people can guess ranges down to 0.001" without using a tape measure (rare but i've seen it happen). Using all tools available to maneuver (or out-maneuver) is just part of the game, whether you like it or not. I myself make mental notes during deployment of which terrain features are at my 12" line, and if i see my opponent stretch his deployment and press the 12" i make notes of terrain pieces there too. Estimating charge ranges, movement ranges, etc, is just part of trying to be a good general. Also, things like difficult terrain tests and run rolls are still random, so not every general will have his plan work the way he wants every time. DE just have an easier time b/c skimmers are hella fast and ignore terrain that they don't land in.

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:
Yes for fun, that is exactly why they where created. If It wasn't fun no one would care.

Really? Just so the guy that gets his teeth kicked in can say he had fun because he got a 24 in Sportsmanship and a 21 in Painting? Or maybe it was to level the playing field for those that don't choose to be WAAC players. I'm not saying that I agree with soft scores. I actually prefer a tournament without them, but they weren't created so TO's could have something else to judge.

Either way it was still created for 'fun' people enjoy the art of painting their models and get rewarded for it, and it ads an extra edge to the competition.
The whole reason tournaments exist are for fun. Be it enjoying winning/ the painting/ the people, what ever your preference in a tournament. People go to these events for fun. If they where no fun no one would appear.

tetrisphreak wrote:@Primarch/Clay

The act of mentally figuring out what you can do on your turn is part of the game. Some people can guess ranges down to 0.001" without using a tape measure (rare but i've seen it happen). Using all tools available to maneuver (or out-maneuver) is just part of the game, whether you like it or not. I myself make mental notes during deployment of which terrain features are at my 12" line, and if i see my opponent stretch his deployment and press the 12" i make notes of terrain pieces there too. Estimating charge ranges, movement ranges, etc, is just part of trying to be a good general. Also, things like difficult terrain tests and run rolls are still random, so not every general will have his plan work the way he wants every time. DE just have an easier time b/c skimmers are hella fast and ignore terrain that they don't land in.

Im not sure you are actually reading/comprehending anything i've said here. I don't know how to answer you any more. The things you mention above, you are correct about. What does that have to do with this thread?


Clay

Gwar! wrote:Exactly. Therefore we look to the rules. The Rules say you can measure then change your mind. Therefore, it is legal to measure 24" in one direction, then change your mind.

Of course it is. But that's not what he was doing.

Go back and read the first post again. Nowhere in there is a mention of him intending to move the vehicle in one direction, followed by him changing his mind. He specifically made the measurement to determine how far away the enemy vehicle was.

Whether or not his opponent knew his reasons for doing it, or knew that it was what he was doing, that's against the rules.

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

So complete pre-measuring of everything in the game is the rule that is followed where you play? Where I play, my rule book says that is illegal, and is not a "tool", but instead an illegal move. Using that to win a game is called cheating, and is very frowned upon. I apologize that we don't seem to share the same rulebook, or play the same game. It is Warhammer 40k you are talking about right?


Clay

tetrisphreak wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

Measuring your opponent's charge range to your unit so that you can avoid the charge is against the rules. It's not strong gameplay or generalship. It's cheating.

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

So complete pre-measuring of everything in the game is the rule that is followed where you play? Where I play, my rule book says that is illegal, and is not a "tool", but instead an illegal move. Using that to win a game is called cheating, and is very frowned upon. I apologize that we don't seem to share the same rulebook, or play the same game. It is Warhammer 40k you are talking about right?


Clay

Clay I am sorry but the rulebook CLEARLY states that the move is legal.
He measured his move range and it just happened your unit was within that. Making it legal

*ahem*

Measuring my movement the full allowable range (6" for infantry 12" for bikes 24" for fast skimmers ETC) is what i was referring to.

Do not try to twist my words to make me appear to be a cheater simply because I like to use every possible rule i can to get an advantage. I recommend you do the same, and perhaps you'll win more games. This is not an attack against you personally, so don't turn it into one against me.

I want to win, You want to win. Once everybody accepts that we can just get down to brass tacks and play.

@ Puma - By your logic, simply KNOWING your charge range for your combinations of units is cheating. Measuring is part of the game, so is calculating in your mind the numbers required for you (or your opponent) to get the charge off. It's an integral mechanic to the game!

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

So complete pre-measuring of everything in the game is the rule that is followed where you play? Where I play, my rule book says that is illegal, and is not a "tool", but instead an illegal move. Using that to win a game is called cheating, and is very frowned upon. I apologize that we don't seem to share the same rulebook, or play the same game. It is Warhammer 40k you are talking about right?


Clay

Clay I am sorry but the rulebook CLEARLY states that the move is legal.

Using your tape measure to measure my move/charge range is clearly not legal. Not in the 5th edition rulebook that I have. Is yours in a different language? Maybe the translation is the problem here?


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:*ahem*

Measuring my movement the full allowable range (6" for infantry 12" for bikes 24" for fast skimmers ETC) is what i was referring to.

Do not try to twist my words to make me appear to be a cheater simply because I like to use every possible rule i can to get an advantage. I recommend you do the same, and perhaps you'll win more games. This is not an attack against you personally, so don't turn it into one against me.

I want to win, You want to win. Once everybody accepts that we can just get down to brass tacks and play.

Please re-read my post. I said that doing what you reference above is legal, and acceptable. Using your tape measure to measure my move/charge is not legal, and is cheating.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Primarch wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:*double post*

Yes, as long as you don't use that to measure where my models can end up their move/charge, then I would be ok with that. But, if you do it in your head, or out loud, then you are breaking the rules. Not sure what else there is that can be said to make it more clear.



Clay

I'm sorry but i simply disagree with that statement. I feel as though measuring everything i possibly can to give me an edge is strong gameplay and generalship. I would expect my opponent to use all his tools available to do the same. I do apologize that we don't share the same opinion on wargaming.

So complete pre-measuring of everything in the game is the rule that is followed where you play? Where I play, my rule book says that is illegal, and is not a "tool", but instead an illegal move. Using that to win a game is called cheating, and is very frowned upon. I apologize that we don't seem to share the same rulebook, or play the same game. It is Warhammer 40k you are talking about right?


Clay

Clay I am sorry but the rulebook CLEARLY states that the move is legal.

Using your tape measure to measure my move/charge range is clearly not legal. Not in the 5th edition rulebook that I have. Is yours in a different language? Maybe the translation is the problem here?


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:*ahem*

Measuring my movement the full allowable range (6" for infantry 12" for bikes 24" for fast skimmers ETC) is what i was referring to.

Do not try to twist my words to make me appear to be a cheater simply because I like to use every possible rule i can to get an advantage. I recommend you do the same, and perhaps you'll win more games. This is not an attack against you personally, so don't turn it into one against me.

I want to win, You want to win. Once everybody accepts that we can just get down to brass tacks and play.

Please re-read my post. I said that doing what you reference above is legal, and acceptable. Using your tape measure to measure my move/charge is not legal, and is cheating.


Clay

No measuring MY movement range is legal and any extra information I get from that is mines to use without disqualification or bad sportsmanship.
If you happen to be within my movement range and I know you can charge 30" then I cannot be penalized for knowing my opponents army.
That would be silly.

If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

+1 @ syanticraven

Knowledge is power, especially in 40K

I think I have made my point, but if you come up with anything else feel free to PM me.

puma713 wrote:

The thing is, a can of worms is opened either way. If you play that way, then I can technically measure anything I want. As I've said before, I can measure for bolter fire to the back of your deployment (or wherever your farthest unit is away) and start taking notes of how far I need to Deep Strike next turn to not go off the table/hit an opponent's unit. I can measure exactly how far it will take you to get to me and vice versa. I can measure for other weapons. I can measure for just about anything (aka pre-measure) with a simple bolter fire that wouldn't hit anyway - so it doesn't cost me anything.

Not sure why you did this, but you took the situation at hand and morphed into something completely different, which is cheating. If you have a 12" gun, you declare a target and measure 12" to that specific target. That can't in any way be tied into moving....in which you extend your measuring tape out to your possible range and weigh your options.

If your tank can move 12" and you're measuring 13+" around....yep. Cheating.

If your tank can move 12" and you measure 12" in different directions to weigh your options....not cheating.

If your skimmer can move 24" and you measure out 24" to see what your various options are....not cheating. Unsportsmanlike? I don't know. That's what this thread is for.

Primarch wrote:If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

Because they don't see it for what it is. Using one rule to break another. So it's okay since it's a rule, even though using the rule breaks another rule.

What's that that Gwar! always says? How many rules does playing it your way break? 1. How many rules does playing it my way break? 0.

Primarch wrote:If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

Say it is a mirror match, my raider can move 12" and your raider can move 12" , I declare I am moving, measure 12" towards you.
What then? I am disqualified because I now know that If I stay still you are 12" away from me or if I move back 12" you are now 24" away?
No that is not how this game works.

Now change that to I can move 24" and you can move 30", they same rules still apply. I an not going to be penalized for knowing my opponents army, especially as that is part of the game.

Dashofpepper wrote:

puma713 wrote:

The thing is, a can of worms is opened either way. If you play that way, then I can technically measure anything I want. As I've said before, I can measure for bolter fire to the back of your deployment (or wherever your farthest unit is away) and start taking notes of how far I need to Deep Strike next turn to not go off the table/hit an opponent's unit. I can measure exactly how far it will take you to get to me and vice versa. I can measure for other weapons. I can measure for just about anything (aka pre-measure) with a simple bolter fire that wouldn't hit anyway - so it doesn't cost me anything.

Not sure why you did this, but you took the situation at hand and morphed into something completely different, which is cheating. If you have a 12" gun, you declare a target and measure 12" to that specific target. That can't in any way be tied into moving....in which you extend your measuring tape out to your possible range and weigh your options.

If your tank can move 12" and you're measuring 13+" around....yep. Cheating.

If your tank can move 12" and you measure 12" in different directions to weigh your options....not cheating.

If your skimmer can move 24" and you measure out 24" to see what your various options are....not cheating. Unsportsmanlike? I don't know. That's what this thread is for.

Wrong Dash. If your skimmer can move 24 inches and you measure 24 inches out to see what your various movement options are, not cheating. If you do that to pre-measure MY movement, then you are cheating. Pretty clear in the rule book.


Clay

I figured it would be a 2:3:1 ratio, in that order. I was wrong. Anyhoo, I believe while being perfectly legal, you are abusing a rule, only thing I would do is deduct one from sportsmanship!

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

Say it is a mirror match, my raider can move 12" and your raider can move 12" , I declare I am moving, measure 12" towards you.
What then? I am disqualified because I now know that If I stay still you are 12" away from me or if I move back 12" you are now 24" away?
No that is not how this game works.

Now change that to I can move 24" and you can move 30", they same rules still apply. I an not going to be penalized for knowing my opponents army, especially as that is part of the game.

Clearly you aren't following the thread. Explicitly measuring to my vehicle to gain knowledge of my movement/charge range is against the rules. The intention of the rule is to pre-measure your own movement, not your opponents.


Clay

Dashofpepper wrote:

puma713 wrote:

The thing is, a can of worms is opened either way. If you play that way, then I can technically measure anything I want. As I've said before, I can measure for bolter fire to the back of your deployment (or wherever your farthest unit is away) and start taking notes of how far I need to Deep Strike next turn to not go off the table/hit an opponent's unit. I can measure exactly how far it will take you to get to me and vice versa. I can measure for other weapons. I can measure for just about anything (aka pre-measure) with a simple bolter fire that wouldn't hit anyway - so it doesn't cost me anything.

Not sure why you did this, but you took the situation at hand and morphed into something completely different, which is cheating. If you have a 12" gun, you declare a target and measure 12" to that specific target. That can't in any way be tied into moving....in which you extend your measuring tape out to your possible range and weigh your options.

Wrong. Pg. 17:

Check Range. When you're checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit. Any model that is found to be out of range of all the models he can see in the target unit misses automatically - his shots simply do not reach.

There is never a caveat saying that if I can only shoot 12", I can't measure across the board. In fact, it simply says "choose your target before measuring range" and then the next passage follows. There's nothing about it extending beyond the maximum range. If you couldn't measure beyond something's maximum range, then how would you ever shoot a lascannon 49" away and miss? You just can't measure that because it's beyond the weapon's range? Wrong.

I know for a fact that a 12" bolt pistol can't hit a unit 48" away. But, I pick the target, and I measure range. How convenient, my Land Raider is in that arc of fire and I can tell that I'm 15" away from your unit. Sweet.

Gwar!'s admission, if you need someone else's opinion:

Gwar! wrote:
However, when I play the game, if you want to play by the rules, I have no right to get annoyed or to stop you. And no, I would have no problem with you measuring your Devastators bolters from the back of the field, as you are permitted to, nay, you are REQUIRED to, measure the distance every time you fire.

Gwar! wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Gwar! wrote:But how are we to determine what someone intentions are?

We can't. As I pointed out in my first response in this thread.

Exactly. Therefore we look to the rules. The Rules say you can measure then change your mind. Therefore, it is legal to measure 24" in one direction, then change your mind.

We don't know if he had any intention of moving 24" in that direction or not. All we do know is that the rules say you can do this.

Except we do know, because Dash said so, so by his own admission, he was not following the rule to measure his "intended" movement, because he clearly didn't intend to do so. So in that case, it was an illegal action.

Now, if he had said nothing of the sort, then it would have probably been very difficult to tell what Dash was doing, and Clay may have let it slide.

And, the rules say you can do this pre-measurement, but only that pre-measurement, so by RAW, if you do anything that allows you to even see another model next to that tape measure (like a battlewagon at the 19" mark, for example) then you have broken the rule, by RAW.

So in my mind, that means that unless you pre-measure with your eyes closed in most cases, you probably won't be able to pre-measure your distance without getting some type of inkling as to where other things are on the board, and therefore are in violation of the rules, and should not be pre-measuring. That's RAW baby.

Primarch wrote:

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.

Clay

Hold your horses there bud.....

I clearly explained what I was doing. Everyone seems to have gotten the drift except you. I've THREE TIMES over two threads explained that I measured 24" out to your battlewagon to find out that you were 19" away, which told me to move at least 11" away from you to stay out of a possible 29" charge range.

I explained what I did, I explained why I did it, I explained why I didn't think it was an issue, I explained your reaction and my thoughts on your reaction, as well as me backing off during the game to step down the rules lawyering.

There's no mystery that what I did was advantageous and I haven't tried hiding it. In the other thread, people supporting your viewpoint even credited me for being open with it, demonstrating that it wasn't done maliciously. Back of the lying accusations.

And don't think that Gwar is in my camp; we don't see eye to eye on many rule debates. I'm glad to have him be Johnny on the spot for rules quotes like "What's the rule for multi-assaulting" or "Can a unit do blah" but for grey areas, we virtually never see eye to eye.

Primarch wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

Say it is a mirror match, my raider can move 12" and your raider can move 12" , I declare I am moving, measure 12" towards you.
What then? I am disqualified because I now know that If I stay still you are 12" away from me or if I move back 12" you are now 24" away?
No that is not how this game works.

Now change that to I can move 24" and you can move 30", they same rules still apply. I an not going to be penalized for knowing my opponents army, especially as that is part of the game.

Clearly you aren't following the thread. Explicitly measuring to my vehicle to gain knowledge of my movement/charge range is against the rules. The intention of the rule is to pre-measure your own movement, not your opponents.


Clay

If he is using information gained from his units movement arc then it is legal.

If he specifically takes the measuring tape and measures FROM (Read: the big plastic bit of the tape starts here) your vehicle TO (read: the small metal bit of the tape ends here)
his, then that is in fact an Illegal.

And yes measuring your vehicles range is illegal unless it comes from the knowledge gained from another legal measure of his. i.e movement.
Or say firing. Lets say I declare I'm firing at your tank with my flamer, for no other reason then measuring your distance. Sure it wont do feth all to your tank but it allows me to legally check if you are within 9 inchs.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Primarch wrote:

He never measured out movement and changed his mind. He used the rule that allowed him to measure HIS movement, and instead measured MY movement. Please catch up, or have Dash tell you the truth instead of apparently lieing to you about the situation.

Clay

Hold your horses there bud.....

I clearly explained what I was doing. Everyone seems to have gotten the drift except you. I've THREE TIMES over two threads explained that I measured 24" out to your battlewagon to find out that you were 19" away, which told me to move at least 11" away from you to stay out of a possible 29" charge range.

I explained what I did, I explained why I did it, I explained why I didn't think it was an issue, I explained your reaction and my thoughts on your reaction, as well as me backing off during the game to step down the rules lawyering.

There's no mystery that what I did was advantageous and I haven't tried hiding it. In the other thread, people supporting your viewpoint even credited me for being open with it, demonstrating that it wasn't done maliciously. Back of the lying accusations.

And don't think that Gwar is in my camp; we don't see eye to eye on many rule debates. I'm glad to have him be Johnny on the spot for rules quotes like "What's the rule for multi-assaulting" or "Can a unit do blah" but for grey areas, we virtually never see eye to eye.

Instead of quoting my post, how about add in the context. The part where GWAR assumes a bunch of things about the situation, and since you and he talk, sure i also assumed you had either talked to him, or he hadn't read the actual thread. One of which was true. Also, you backed it down? After every point had been conceded to you? Sure you did, there wasn't anything else to argue about that would matter.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:

syanticraven wrote:

Primarch wrote:If you use your tape measure to measure my movement, then you are breaking the rules of the game. It doesn't matter what "trick" you think you are using for this. The rules are clear, you are only ALLOWED to measure your movement.

I just don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.


Clay

Say it is a mirror match, my raider can move 12" and your raider can move 12" , I declare I am moving, measure 12" towards you.
What then? I am disqualified because I now know that If I stay still you are 12" away from me or if I move back 12" you are now 24" away?
No that is not how this game works.

Now change that to I can move 24" and you can move 30", they same rules still apply. I an not going to be penalized for knowing my opponents army, especially as that is part of the game.

Clearly you aren't following the thread. Explicitly measuring to my vehicle to gain knowledge of my movement/charge range is against the rules. The intention of the rule is to pre-measure your own movement, not your opponents.


Clay

If he is using information gained from his units movement arc then it is legal.

If he specifically takes the measuring tape and measures FROM (Read: the big plastic bit of the tape starts here) your vehicle TO (read: the small metal bit of the tape ends here)
his, then that is in fact an Illegal.

And yes measuring your vehicles range is illegal unless it comes from the knowledge gained from another legal measure of his. i.e movement.

This is where we mainly disagree. My rule book says he can't measure my stuff. That's all it says. It doesn't add in the caveat that you keep mentioning. Can you point me to that page please? Maybe my book has a page missing.


Clay

Personally, I say thats totally legal. Its the maximum move distance on the tape measure, on your movement phase. I dont see how that would be cheating at all. All your doing is making sure you dont move to close to keep the opponent from getting an undesired charge on you.

Now if you pulled that anytime other then mentioned, then yea thats totally cheating, like measuring shooting distance before declaring the shot. I had someone try and pull that a week or so ago. After a short "me being mean" they realized their error and desided to not fire said squad

Voted perfectly legal - it's kind of hard to argue that measuring and moving in a different direction is against the spirit of the rules when you're explicitly allowed to right in the text.

Your rulebook says he cant measure your stuff.

Yes he cant literally take out his measuring tape and check distances. He also cant do it himself unless declaring.

But it isnt illegal if he comes across the information in his measuring of his own units.

For example. I can fire 30", I declare firing at your unit, it is within 30", this must be illegal as I then have measured the proximity of YOUR unit?

Son I do not mean to be rude but please smack yourself in the face if you answer yes to the above.

KingCracker wrote:Personally, I say thats totally legal. Its the maximum move distance on the tape measure, on your movement phase. I dont see how that would be cheating at all. All your doing is making sure you dont move to close to keep the opponent from getting an undesired charge on you.

Now if you pulled that anytime other then mentioned, then yea thats totally cheating, like measuring shooting distance before declaring the shot. I had someone try and pull that a week or so ago. After a short "me being mean" they realized their error and desided to not fire said squad

That's issue in question KingCracker. He wasn't measuring movement. He was measuring potential charge range masked as movement. He was completely admitting about it. There were no questions. It wasn't like. . "oh. . .I may move over here. Oop! You're pretty close!"

It was:

"Let's see how far it'll take you to charge me. Now let's move away from that."

This may be legal RaW but it's a serious dick move. Do it if you want, but you better be prepared to let a marine player tell you his character in terminator armor can sweeping advance because he's not a terminator, or a necron player gain shots on his monolith from weapon destroyed results, or anyone tell you that your boarding planks can't be used after a vehicle moves more than 12" total for the whole game.

Is it legal? sure.

Is it intended? Definitely not.

RaW is a slippery slope.

syanticraven wrote:Your rulebook says he cant measure your stuff.

Yes he cant literally take out his measuring tape and check distances. He also cant do it himself unless declaring.

But it isnt illegal if he comes across the information in his measuring of his own units.

For example. I can fire 30", I declare firing at your unit, it is within 30", this must be illegal as I then have measured the proximity of YOUR unit?

Son I do not mean to be rude but please smack yourself in the face if you answer yes to the above.

I don't get how that's even pertinent. The rulebook explicitly allows you - in fact, makes you - measure range for shooting. It does not do the same for your opponent's movement/charge range in your movement phase.

syanticraven wrote:Your rulebook says he cant measure your stuff.

Yes he cant literally take out his measuring tape and check distances. He also cant do it himself unless declaring.

But it isnt illegal if he comes across the information in his measuring of his own units.

For example. I can fire 30", I declare firing at your unit, it is within 30" this must be illegal as I then have measured the proximity of YOUR unit?

Son I do not mean to be rude but please smack yourself in the face if you answer yes to the above.

Not sure you are even bothering to read my post since you just keep saying the same thing over, without adressing my point.



If.......you......use.......your......tape......measure......to.......specifically........measure.......my.......movement/charge.......then.......you........are.......cheating........



Thats pretty much my point. If you are shooting and measure to my unit to check range, sure you will know the range, but thats not WHY you are doing the measuring. If you measure your movement so you can in turn measure my movement/charge range, then you are cheating. That's pretty clearly the rules of the game. Your intent is exactly the point. If your intent is to use your tape measure in any way to pre-measure my movement/charge range, then you are not playing by the rules.

If your intent is not to do so, but you gain some knowledge of the information anyway, then that's just a byproduct of having to measure things. Again, it is solely your intent that matters. If you intend to cheat, then it's cheating.


By your logic, if my opponent doesn't see me, or know that I am cheating, then I am not? Great attitude.


Clay

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Your rulebook says he cant measure your stuff.

Yes he cant literally take out his measuring tape and check distances. He also cant do it himself unless declaring.

But it isnt illegal if he comes across the information in his measuring of his own units.

For example. I can fire 30", I declare firing at your unit, it is within 30", this must be illegal as I then have measured the proximity of YOUR unit?

Son I do not mean to be rude but please smack yourself in the face if you answer yes to the above.

I don't get how that's even pertinent. The rulebook explicitly allows you - in fact, makes you - measure range for shooting. It does not do the same for your opponent's movement/charge range in your movement phase.

Did you take a blind eye to this or do you not like to see the truth?

He wanted to move a direction so measured. He changed his mind. He then measured again to see that you where within his movement range = legal

So then any unit of person A that can move into contact with Person Bs unit is then effectively measured their opponents range (by measuring their own range and seeing they are in range) and is therefore making an illegal move. According to the opposite side of this argument.

Edit: At clay, no it really isnt the rules of the game, seriously I am reading your post, it is you who been giving the verdict is arguing your point. He made a legal move within his movement phase measuring from his unit with the legal measuring distance of his unit. Please Either be reasonable or just leave thinking you are right.

Would it be cheating to you if I measured my 48" range gun to shoot at a unit 26" away so I could use that range to help figure out if a third unit should run or shoot?

syanticraven wrote:

Did you take a blind eye to this or do you not like to see the truth?

He wanted to move a direction so measured. He changed his mind. He then measured again to see that you where within his movement range = legal

Holy crap. You really haven't been reading, have you? I mean, I've seen Primarch ask you if you have, but you really haven't? Dash didn't WANT TO MOVE AND CHANGE HIS MIND. HE WANTED TO MEASURE HIS OPPONENT'S MOVEMENT AND CHARGE RANGE SO HE COULD MOVE OUTSIDE OF IT.

God, my only regret is that I can't write this in crayon for you.

So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

syanticraven wrote:

puma713 wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Your rulebook says he cant measure your stuff.

Yes he cant literally take out his measuring tape and check distances. He also cant do it himself unless declaring.

But it isnt illegal if he comes across the information in his measuring of his own units.

For example. I can fire 30", I declare firing at your unit, it is within 30", this must be illegal as I then have measured the proximity of YOUR unit?

Son I do not mean to be rude but please smack yourself in the face if you answer yes to the above.

I don't get how that's even pertinent. The rulebook explicitly allows you - in fact, makes you - measure range for shooting. It does not do the same for your opponent's movement/charge range in your movement phase.

Did you take a blind eye to this or do you not like to see the truth?

He wanted to move a direction so measured. He changed his mind. He then measured again to see that you where within his movement range = legal

So then any unit of person A that can move into contact with Person Bs unit is then effectively measured their opponents range (by measuring their own range and seeing they are in range) and is therefore making an illegal move. According to the opposite side of this argument.

Ahh, so now it's pretty proven that you haven't read this thread at all.

He did nothing that you describe here. That was not at all what happened. Read the thread again to see that he even told me he was measuring to my unit to use that info to determine my move/charge range.

Sheesh, I thought we were at least discussing the same thread, turns you, you weren't the whole time. Please, re-read, so we can at least be making points about THIS particular post.



Clay

Primarch wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

Did you even read the batrep? He had a problem with it before it even affected him or the game. It's not like he is coming back and complainig about it now. He had a serious issue with it as soon as Dash laid down his tape measure.

Also, I never started a thread talking about this. Dash has started 2 threads where HE brought this up. Please stop trolling and pay attention to the thread or stop wasting our time with your posts. If the question is asked, certainly I can come here and defend my position, yes?



Clay

Sure, he may have felt the need to have been justified by the community...talk more about it...put you down....any of the above?

But complaining about something legal at the game...that happened, is over, is a bit pointless. If you have an issue and want to fix it, then contact the TO and get something done. Talk on Dakka is cheap.

I read the batrep, and all I am seeing now is one person wanting to feel justified and beating a dead horse, while the other complaining about a legal move that he disagrees with.

And yes, as a note: calling someone a Troll, TFG, etc. *does* violate Dakka rules.

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

No, I am annoyed that he measured my move/charge range, and that is clearly illegal.



Clay

Clay, I'm sorry, but the rules are clear cut here. If your unit is within the model's movement range there's no reason why he shouldn't use that information to his advantage. I'd expect it.

Che-Vito wrote:

Primarch wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:
I smell someone who is complaining about something perfectly legal, that hurt them in a game.
I agree with Gwar!

Did you even read the batrep? He had a problem with it before it even affected him or the game. It's not like he is coming back and complainig about it now. He had a serious issue with it as soon as Dash laid down his tape measure.

Also, I never started a thread talking about this. Dash has started 2 threads where HE brought this up. Please stop trolling and pay attention to the thread or stop wasting our time with your posts. If the question is asked, certainly I can come here and defend my position, yes?



Clay

Sure, he may have felt the need to have been justified by the community...talk more about it...put you down....any of the above?

But complaining about something legal at the game...that happened, is over, is a bit pointless. If you have an issue and want to fix it, then contact the TO and get something done. Talk on Dakka is cheap.

I read the batrep, and all I am seeing now is one person wanting to feel justified and beating a dead horse, while the other complaining about a legal move that he disagrees with.

And yes, as a note: calling someone a Troll, TFG, etc. *does* violate Dakka rules.

Great to know, and good thing I didn't call you a Troll I guess. Again, read your rulebook, the move is not legal, sigh. I think I need to start a new thread, its apparent that most are just reading the title of this thread, nothing else, voting, then responding to the last page or so without any real thought into the issue.



Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:Clay, I'm sorry, but the rules are clear cut here. If your unit is within the model's movement range there's no reason why he shouldn't use that information to his advantage. I'd expect it.

So basically if I have a 24 inch range movement, then I can pre-measure any of my opponents moves within that bubble? You'd be ok with that of course?


Makes Nob bikers and Seer councils a whole lot tougher I think.


Clay

Sorry I must be a fething joke.

Using his movement phase he measured the distance between his unit and urs, up to a max of 24" in turn allowing him to see how close you where to him.

That is what he done.

So when I said that he measured, changed his mind then measured to check his distance between the units. Now he didnt do that? he done something completely different?

I'm sorry but as this story is changing and I have tried to lay this out in a number of examples I'm leaving it.

Jurisdiction: Legal, information was gained during legal measurement.

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

My issue is that it breaks a rule. I pointed it out before and I'll do it again (and please keep in mind here, Gwar! that you and I agree on very little a lot of times, but I am using one of your own examples):

1. Is measuring 24" to your opponent legal? Yes.

2. Is measuring the movement of your opponent's model legal? No.

3. Is using your legal movement measurement to measure the movement of your opponent's model legal? Maybe, maybe not. Some say yes, some say no.

Very simply:

How many rules does your way break? 1 - you are not allowed to measure from my models to glean how far away you need to be to avoid them.

How many rules does my way break? 0.

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

No, I am annoyed that he measured my move/charge range, and that is clearly illegal.



Clay

Wrong, while I will agree that it is very unsportsman like, it is within the rules, and he had every right to do it. So it is *not* clearly illegal.

***I have read all four pages, and the battle report, voted, then given my opinion.***

syanticraven wrote:Sorry I must be a fething joke.

Using his movement phase he measured the distance between his unit and urs, up to a max of 24" in turn allowing him to see how close you where to him.

That is what he done.

So when I said that he measured, changed his mind then measured to check his distance between the units. Now he didnt do that? he done something completely different?

I'm sorry but as this story is changing and I have tried to lay this out in a number of example I'm leaving it.

Jurisdiction: Legal, information was gained during legal measurement.

Nothing has changed, the story is the same. You just never bothered to read it. Glad to be rid of you if this is the best input you can give.



Clay

He measured to your unit, which is in his movement range, and then moved away from your unit, which put him out of charge range. What isn't there to get?

You're getting a little hot under the collar - go take a break from the internet for a while. There's no reason to get so frustrated about a game where little screaming men get moved around on plastic discs.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

No, I am annoyed that he measured my move/charge range, and that is clearly illegal.



Clay

Wrong, while I will agree that it is very unsportsman like, it is within the rules, and he had every right to do it. So it is *not* clearly illegal.

***I have read all four pages, and the battle report, voted, then given my opinion.***

I have asked for the page so I can read this myself, and will again. What page is it that allows me to pre-measure my opponents move/charge range while in my movement phase? Please provide a page number. Page 11 references your ability to measure your movement, not mine.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

No, I am annoyed that he measured my move/charge range, and that is clearly illegal.

Again, I ask you, Are you getting annoyed because he did it the wrong way?

Had he done it correctly, would you still be miffed? If so, why?

Primarch wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, all you are getting annoyed about is the fact Dash didn't do it in the right way then?

No, I am annoyed that he measured my move/charge range, and that is clearly illegal.



Clay

Wrong, while I will agree that it is very unsportsman like, it is within the rules, and he had every right to do it. So it is *not* clearly illegal.

***I have read all four pages, and the battle report, voted, then given my opinion.***

I have asked for the page so I can read this myself, and will again. What page is it that allows me to pre-measure my opponents move/charge range while in my movement phase? Please provide a page number. Page 11 references your ability to measure your movement, not mine.


Clay

He was, however, measuring HIS movement NOT yours, so I see no problem here. I understand what you are saying, so there is no need to explain, though in the end, what he did was completely within the rules.

He did measure his movement, which happens to contain your move/charge range.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:He measured to your unit, which is in his movement range, and then moved away from your unit, which put him out of charge range. What isn't there to get?

You're getting a little hot under the collar - go take a break from the internet for a while. There's no reason to get so frustrated about a game where little screaming men get moved around on plastic discs.

Yeah, I am a bit irritated. What I think most of you are really missing for whatever reason, is that pre-measuring my stuff is not legal. He did not do what page 11 allows you to do. He specifically used his tape measure to measure my move/charge range, something not allowed by the rules.



So, to try another example.


If I have a Trukk that can move 19 inches with Red Paint. I decide to move in a straight line right through Impassible terrain, is that legal?

I mean, the rule that I can't move through impassible terrain doesnt apply because there is another rule saying I can move 19 inches, right? Right? Can we then say that its ok to ignore the rule about not being allowed to pre-measure my movement, simply because there is a rule that allows him to pre-measure his own stuff?


Shrug.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:He did measure his movement, which happens to contain your move/charge range.

No, he did not, he used the tape measure to plot my movement. There was no other reason that he stuck it out next to my battle wagon. His intent was to measure my movment, he said as much.



@Gwar- You have asked and I have answered, I will do so again.

If you use your tape measure to pre-measure my move, and that is the sole intent of your measurement, then you are cheating by the rules of 40k. That is what he did, and I am annoyed because he broke the rules. Clear enough?



Clay

it is legal to pre measure a units maximum movement from its base in any direction and decide to move how ever he wishes - if he uses that information obtained to protect himself it is completely legal (information is power in battle)

He was not pre-measuring though, he was measuring, and it encompassed your threat range. If at any other point during the turn he had done that, it would have been illegal. Look at the battle report, at first I was on your side, then after some deliberating, I came to this conclusion.

Not to be the voice of reason here, but if someone uses a perfectly legal rule (please quote me where the rulebook says you can't take advantage of a rule for your benefit) in a way that gives them an arguably unfair advantage try using that to your advantage instead of lamenting the situation. If someone uses the movement measuring rules to figure out how far you are from charging them then you now know exactly how far away from them you are. This information can only help you.

Measuring will give data that is usable for more than one situation.

That is intentional, unavoidable, and in the rules.

Catachan_Devil wrote:it is legal to pre measure a units maximum movement from its base in any direction and decide to move how ever he wishes - if he uses that information obtained to protect himself it is completely legal (information is power in battle)

So the rules that say it's not legal to pre-measure my movement are to be ignored? Are they going to put this in the INAT? I wonder how many rules I can break because there is another rule in the book?

That's what you are all asking to happen here.


Rule 1- You are allowed to pre-measure your own stuff.
Rule 2- You are NOT allowed to pre-measure your opponents stuff.


Oh, disregard rule number 2, because rule number 1 exists? Really?


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Instead of quoting my post, how about add in the context. The part where GWAR assumes a bunch of things about the situation, and since you and he talk, sure i also assumed you had either talked to him, or he hadn't read the actual thread. One of which was true. Also, you backed it down? After every point had been conceded to you? Sure you did, there wasn't anything else to argue about that would matter.


Clay

If my posts seem outdated in relation to the thread it is because I haven't been following it. I made my original post, and have not been on Dakka following its progression. So as I spent the last 30 minutes reading through 4 pages of it, I've been responding as I read, although issues that I'm responding to may have been pages ago.

-----------

Something I do want to note though is that you keep mentioning that you made every concession to me. Lets talk about that for a minute.

During every 40k game, we define terrain, and I basically pointed around the board asking if flat stuff is flat. I remember reading that flat hilltops don't count as difficult terrain to move on top of unless you go down the side or something, meaning you can fly onto them without any issue. So I pointed to flat building tops and said, "Is that flat?" You telling me "Yes" isn't a concession. I didn't care one way or the other, I just needed to know what was on the board where to plan my movements and warrior deployment. I landed my raiders on the stuff that wasn't flat and took dangerous terrain tests all the same - that raider attempting to block your battlewagons wasn't on a flat surface just like your battlewagon wasn't 3 stories above the battlefield.

The 24" thing we're discussing here.....I've said it several times now; it was a new idea and a new discussion. I hadn't previously considered the ramifications of doing so, whether it might be considered against the spirit of the rules or not. I didn't measure YOUR charge range, or YOUR movement; by definition that would be putting my tape measure to your model and measuring 13" to see where YOU can get. I measured my movement, and in doing so garnered the information I was looking for - how far away from me you were. I did so openly because I didn't see any problem with it.

When you told me you thought it was nigh cheating....we talked about it, you told me you thought it violated the spirit of the rules....I turned to the spectators looking for an answer, no one wanted to engage, I apologized and didn't do it again. Like I said; I go with the flow.

I wouldn't do it again in a game against you because you don't like it. Its obviously legal, although enough people think it breaks the spirit of the rules that I wouldn't do it again because I don't want to be TFG; I work too hard to have fun during my games....which is why I expressed my alarm that you were like, "Alright, its going to be WAAC RAW, I can dig it" and I was like, "Wait wait wait....chill man....."

There is no rule saying you cannot measure range to a unit that is in your movement radius. A better example would be this:

My Hrud are fighting your Chaos Tyranids. I have a unit called a Stranglewraith who can move 12". He is armed with a Shadowhip, which has a minimum range of 6". My model is near your Khornegaunts. I measure my 12" movement towards the Khornegaunts, and find that they are currently exactly 4" away, so I switch gears and move the Stranglewraith 3" back, allowing me to utilize my Shadowhip. Is this legal?

Also, the word is "measuring". "Pre-measuring" would entail measuring before it should be allowed, as opposed to measuring something you do not agree with.

He measured from his vehicle, and thus was measuring his own movement. It is legal for him to measure from his vehicle in any direction he likes for whatever reason he likes at that point in time. If he can use information gained by measuring from his vehicle, so much the better for him.

Besides all this, it sets a really terrible precedent to declare that intent is what matters in whether or not a rule is broken, because intent is often unmeasurable.

Primarch wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:it is legal to pre measure a units maximum movement from its base in any direction and decide to move how ever he wishes - if he uses that information obtained to protect himself it is completely legal (information is power in battle)

So the rules that say it's not legal to pre-measure my movement are to be ignored? Are they going to put this in the INAT? I wonder how many rules I can break because there is another rule in the book?

That's what you are all asking to happen here.


Rule 1- You are allowed to pre-measure your own stuff.
Rule 2- You are NOT allowed to pre-measure your opponents stuff.


Oh, disregard rule number 2, because rule number 1 exists? Really?


Clay

if he measured from the hull of his vehicle it is fine

he measured from his vehicle how far your unit was and then used that information to determine how far/fast and which direction to travel in to gain a tactical advantage

if measured from your unit/vehicle - it is a different matter

Our general rule in my local gaming group is that for anything requiring measuring, you may measure up to the maximum range of whatever it is that you are measuring. In other words, if its a fast skimmer, you can (in essence) measure a 24" bubble around the skimmer and then decide where to go.

For shooting, same deal. You can't use a bolter to measure 48" range since its obviously out of range and we're not usually TFG. On the other hand, if I'm unsure whether one squad of Heavy Weapons is in 48" range, we are fine with firing another 48" (or similar range) weapon to "rangefind" for the other squad. That, to us, is just tactics.

Honestly, its not really TFG to measure further than you intend to move (within the vehicle's max range, obviously). There's a lot worse stuff out there I think. But I guess there's people who don't like the tactic... whatver floats your boat I suppose.

Xca|iber wrote:You can't use a bolter to measure 48" range since its obviously out of range and we're not usually TFG.

I don't have my rulebook handy, but I thought that this was RAW?

edit: that is, that you can only measure to the range of the weapons being fired when measuring range.

Legal, but shady. I don't like it.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Besides all this, it sets a really terrible precedent to declare that intent is what matters in whether or not a rule is broken, because intent is often unmeasurable.

Intent is what differentiates between cheating or an honest mistake. It's not setting a terrible precedent to ask players to police their own behaviour... quite the opposite in fact.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Instead of quoting my post, how about add in the context. The part where GWAR assumes a bunch of things about the situation, and since you and he talk, sure i also assumed you had either talked to him, or he hadn't read the actual thread. One of which was true. Also, you backed it down? After every point had been conceded to you? Sure you did, there wasn't anything else to argue about that would matter.


Clay

If my posts seem outdated in relation to the thread it is because I haven't been following it. I made my original post, and have not been on Dakka following its progression. So as I spent the last 30 minutes reading through 4 pages of it, I've been responding as I read, although issues that I'm responding to may have been pages ago.

-----------

Something I do want to note though is that you keep mentioning that you made every concession to me. Lets talk about that for a minute.

During every 40k game, we define terrain, and I basically pointed around the board asking if flat stuff is flat. I remember reading that flat hilltops don't count as difficult terrain to move on top of unless you go down the side or something, meaning you can fly onto them without any issue. So I pointed to flat building tops and said, "Is that flat?" You telling me "Yes" isn't a concession. I didn't care one way or the other, I just needed to know what was on the board where to plan my movements and warrior deployment. I landed my raiders on the stuff that wasn't flat and took dangerous terrain tests all the same - that raider attempting to block your battlewagons wasn't on a flat surface just like your battlewagon wasn't 3 stories above the battlefield.

The 24" thing we're discussing here.....I've said it several times now; it was a new idea and a new discussion. I hadn't previously considered the ramifications of doing so, whether it might be considered against the spirit of the rules or not. I didn't measure YOUR charge range, or YOUR movement; by definition that would be putting my tape measure to your model and measuring 13" to see where YOU can get. I measured my movement, and in doing so garnered the information I was looking for - how far away from me you were. I did so openly because I didn't see any problem with it.

When you told me you thought it was nigh cheating....we talked about it, you told me you thought it violated the spirit of the rules....I turned to the spectators looking for an answer, no one wanted to engage, I apologized and didn't do it again. Like I said; I go with the flow.

I wouldn't do it again in a game against you because you don't like it. Its obviously legal, although enough people think it breaks the spirit of the rules that I wouldn't do it again because I don't want to be TFG; I work too hard to have fun during my games....which is why I expressed my alarm that you were like, "Alright, its going to be WAAC RAW, I can dig it" and I was like, "Wait wait wait....chill man....."

Sigh, I am beginning to see the point of a few others when it comes to you, and I really didn't want to. I don't mind discussing rules until we come to a conclusion. What I mind, is you making it sound like you were the innocent victim at times here. I don't think I am blameless though to be honest. I wasn't comforatable letting you pick all those flat spots in all those ruins and declare them flat, but in the friendly nature of the game, I said yes and accepted it. My decision, something I came to later regret. Especially when you did the measurement thing(by the way, not legal, or at least not fully explored as legal), and then again when you wouldn't allow me to place a model on the ledge of a building, something clearly defined as legal in the rules. Again, I accepted your compromise.

At the time, I thought the measuring was against the spirit, now I think it is cheating. Clearly I agree that if it was the first time you tried it, then you wouldn't know that probably. I concede that you werent doing what I am now calling "cheating" on purpose if it does turn out to be so. In hindsight, I should have said no on the flat "ruins", I should have argued about the ledge till we looked it up and I was proven right, and quite possibly, I should have deducted a point or 2 of sportsmanship for the measurement thing(debatable, and I didnt feel right doing that, so I didnt ding you at all.) Would any of that have changed the game? Not in the slightest. You had a better army suited to that mission, you won the roll to go first, and you beat me. Ive been beat before, it certainly won't be the last time.

I am not complaining because I lost, in fact I was far over it, and would never have brought any of it up until you did. You should have let it all go if you wanted to maintain the status quo between us, clearly you did not. So noted.


Either way, grats on winning, and when next we play, be prepared to RAW it all the way out, since that is apparently the style you like to play.



Clay

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:You can't use a bolter to measure 48" range since its obviously out of range and we're not usually TFG.

I don't have my rulebook handy, but I thought that this was RAW?

edit: that is, that you can only measure to the range of the weapons being fired when measuring range.

This is not the case.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:You can't use a bolter to measure 48" range since its obviously out of range and we're not usually TFG.

I don't have my rulebook handy, but I thought that this was RAW?

edit: that is, that you can only measure to the range of the weapons being fired when measuring range.

That's not true. You measure the range from the closest model in your unit to the closest model in the target unit and then look to see if you're in range. If you're not, you miss. It has nothing to do with the range of the weapon when measuring.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:You can't use a bolter to measure 48" range since its obviously out of range and we're not usually TFG.

I don't have my rulebook handy, but I thought that this was RAW?

edit: that is, that you can only measure to the range of the weapons being fired when measuring range.

Meh, yeah, though you are supposed to measure straight to the unit you declare to shoot at I believe. (unlike movement)

***Ninja'd, twice, this thread is popular***

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:I don't have my rulebook handy, but I thought that this was RAW?

edit: that is, that you can only measure to the range of the weapons being fired when measuring range.

Nope. The rules just tell us to measure from the firer to the target. They don't say to stop when you get to the weapon's max range... although from my experience a lot of players do it that way.

Fine but shady.

Measuring movement is one thing, measuring for exact distances between your units and your opponents' units is stretching the rules.

Meanwhile, how about we stick to the actual topic, and leave the soap opera out of it?

Hmm. Would everyone cry foul at my using this to "pre-measure" for frag missiles with a squad of Grey Hunters?

insaniak wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Besides all this, it sets a really terrible precedent to declare that intent is what matters in whether or not a rule is broken, because intent is often unmeasurable.

Intent is what differentiates between cheating or an honest mistake. It's not setting a terrible precedent to ask players to police their own behaviour... quite the opposite in fact.

That doesn't quite address what I wrote. If you get a judge involved in a situation like this, where no rule has been broken by actions, as Dash was allowed to measure from his unit, where the judge cannot judge intent quite so clearly as here, what to do?

insaniak wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:I don't have my rulebook handy, but I thought that this was RAW?

edit: that is, that you can only measure to the range of the weapons being fired when measuring range.

Nope. The rules just tell us to measure from the firer to the target. They don't say to stop when you get to the weapon's max range... although from my experience a lot of players do it that way.

Which is what makes it legal to measure from your bolters in the back of the field to your opponent's devastators 52" away and use it to pre-measure everything else in the game.

Legal? Yep. Shady? Yep.

"Soldier! Fire on those Devastators!"

"I only have a boltgun, Sarge! There's no way I can hit them!"

"It's okay! I want to see how far I need to order those Land Raiders forward!"

". . huh?"

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Hmm. Would everyone cry foul at my using this to "pre-measure" for frag missiles with a squad of Grey Hunters?

What do you mean?

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:That doesn't quite address what I wrote. If you get a judge involved in a situation like this, where no rule has been broken by actions, as Dash was allowed to measure from his unit, where the judge cannot judge intent quite so clearly as here, what to do?

I would expect the judge to make a judgement call based on both player's explanation of the situation. But that's not the point. Intent isn't something that can be policed by anyone other than the player himself... but that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. Not cheating is more than just not letting your opponent know that you're cheating.

Primarch wrote:I must be missing something.


Are 22 people voting that it is perfectly legal to pre-measure your opponents charge range, during your own movement phase? That's what the poll looks like.....




Clay

People are much more biased with something like this.

I honestly thought while the majority would vote for it being legal, that a few more would vote towards it being illegal.

insaniak wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:That doesn't quite address what I wrote. If you get a judge involved in a situation like this, where no rule has been broken by actions, as Dash was allowed to measure from his unit, where the judge cannot judge intent quite so clearly as here, what to do?

I would expect the judge to make a judgement call based on both player's explanation of the situation. But that's not the point. Intent isn't something that can be policed by anyone other than the player himself... but that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. Not cheating is more than just not letting your opponent know that you're cheating.

And in this case specifically, the intent was to measure from the opponent's unit, not to measure movement and happen to stumble upon this extra information.

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Hmm. Would everyone cry foul at my using this to "pre-measure" for frag missiles with a squad of Grey Hunters?

What do you mean?

If I know how far it is between my long fangs and my grey hunters, and I know how far it is between my grey hunters and an enemy unit, I then don't have to guess when firing my long fangs in frag mode at that enemy unit.

Wait, are frag missiles not treated as guess range weapons this edition? feth, I really need to get some gaming in.

If they're not guess range, substitute some other guess range weapon for them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:That doesn't quite address what I wrote. If you get a judge involved in a situation like this, where no rule has been broken by actions, as Dash was allowed to measure from his unit, where the judge cannot judge intent quite so clearly as here, what to do?

I would expect the judge to make a judgement call based on both player's explanation of the situation. But that's not the point. Intent isn't something that can be policed by anyone other than the player himself... but that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. Not cheating is more than just not letting your opponent know that you're cheating.

However, if we're declaring something illegal, then it has to be something that can be judged by an outsider. To do otherwise is completely pointless.

Guess range weapons don't exist anymore. They're even disappearing from Fantasy. Good riddance I say.

Ah.

Well then: would you cry foul at my "pre-measuring" charge distance across the board with that unit of grey hunters in the shooting phase?

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

MasterSlowPoke wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Hmm. Would everyone cry foul at my using this to "pre-measure" for frag missiles with a squad of Grey Hunters?

What do you mean?

If I know how far it is between my long fangs and my grey hunters, and I know how far it is between my grey hunters and an enemy unit, I then don't have to guess when firing my long fangs in frag mode at that enemy unit.

Wait, are frag missiles not treated as guess range weapons this edition? feth, I really need to get some gaming in.

If they're not guess range, substitute some other guess range weapon for them.

Legally, yes you can do what you're trying to say. Is it frowned upon? I can't speak for everyone, but I know some folks around here would have some major problems with it.

You have a Infantry Platoon right next to your Leman Russ Executioner. Your opponent's unit looks a bit out of range for the Executioner, but there are other choice targets. Well, let's see if that Executioner is out of range. I fire my Infantry Platoon's lasguns at your enemy unit (knowing full well that it is well beyond 12" away). I extend my tape measure and find that your unit is 34" away from my unit. Perfect. I line up my Executioner because I know that I am in range now, whereas I didn't before.

puma713 wrote:Legally, yes you can do what you're trying to say. Is it frowned upon? I can't speak for everyone, but I know some folks around here would have some major problems with it.

You have a Infantry Platoon right next to your Leman Russ Executioner. Your opponent's unit looks a bit out of range for the Executioner, but there are other choice targets. Well, let's see if that Executioner is out of range. I fire my Infantry Platoon's lasguns at your enemy unit (knowing full well that it is well beyond 12" away). I extend my tape measure and find that your unit is 34" away from my unit. Perfect. I line up my Executioner because I know that I am in range now, whereas I didn't before.

And I guess my point is that if this is fine and dandy, if shady, then what is the difference between the two situations? Why does one violate the spirit of the rules and the other does not, when this one is far, far more abusable than the first?

This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

According to your logic, measuring from anything to anything is illegal because when you calculate the distance between point A and point B, you also magically discover the distance between point B and point A. And that must be illegal, because you don't control point B!

Here's another situation: I have a tactical squad and a Land Raider right next to eachother. In front of these two units is a unit of Berserkers. In my shooting phase I decide to shoot a single lascannon at the Berserkers, and I note that during measurement that the Berserkers are 11" away. I then decide to Run my tactical squad away from the Berserkers so they are no longer within assault range.

According to your logic, what has just transpired above is illegal; because in measuring the distance between the Lascannon Sponson and the Berserkers I also somehow "discovered" their charge range and took action accordingly.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

puma713 wrote:Legally, yes you can do what you're trying to say. Is it frowned upon? I can't speak for everyone, but I know some folks around here would have some major problems with it.

You have a Infantry Platoon right next to your Leman Russ Executioner. Your opponent's unit looks a bit out of range for the Executioner, but there are other choice targets. Well, let's see if that Executioner is out of range. I fire my Infantry Platoon's lasguns at your enemy unit (knowing full well that it is well beyond 12" away). I extend my tape measure and find that your unit is 34" away from my unit. Perfect. I line up my Executioner because I know that I am in range now, whereas I didn't before.

And I guess my point is that if this is fine and dandy, if shady, then what is the difference between the two situations? Why does one violate the spirit of the rules and the other does not, when this one is far, far more abusable than the first?

I wasn't saying that it was. I think they're equally as shady. If you need to do that to win, then I'm sorry. I know lots and lots of great players who don't do it and still take top places.

I dont like the idea of measuring something w/ say.. 24'' range and measuring 40'' aways, to me PERSONALLY (not raw) is wrong. Now if you put the tape at 24'' and measure to a target, and happen to now be able to tell exactly how far forward another of your units is and roughly how short you were to the target you were shooting at.. you can fire a forward target and know you have that additional range is fine..

movement, put the tape to max range, measure a bubble around your unit moving.. take note of what ever you want in that bubble, shady? no. Legal? yes. If someone tried to ding me or deny me this id think they were just being a cry baby. What im supposed to magically close my eyes when i pass near your unit? thats just dumb.

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

According to your logic, measuring from anything to anything is illegal because when you calculate the distance between point A and point B, you also magically discover the distance between point B and point A. And that must be illegal, because you don't control point B!

Here's another situation: I have a tactical squad and a Land Raider right next to eachother. In front of these two units is a unit of Berserkers. In my shooting phase I decide to shoot a single lascannon at the Berserkers, and I note that during measurement that the Berserkers are 11" away. I then decide to Run my tactical squad away from the Berserkers so they are no longer within assault range.

According to your logic, what has just transpired above is illegal; because in measuring the distance between the Lascannon Sponson and the Berserkers I also somehow "discovered" their charge range and took action accordingly.

The difference, as its been pointed out in this thread, is intent. You didn't intend to find out that information, you simply gleaned it from your shooting. What happened with Dash and Primarch was the opposite. Dash measured with the intent to find out how far his opponent could move and charge. He even told his opponent this.

Legal: Yes. Disguised as measuring your movement.

Against the spirit of the rules: Maybe. That's what the poll is for.

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

That's not what people are saying.

It's perfectly acceptable to glean whatever information comes along with legal measurement.

What people are saying in this thread is that measuring something that the rules don't allow you to measure and dressing up that action as doing something completely different in order to get around that restriction is not acceptable.

I thought of another situation where this is applicable.

I have a line of raiders with multiple targets available at different ranges. One of those targets is most important to me, but potentially out of range of several vehicles. My choices:

1. Declare a target with one of my lances in range of a secondary target, and hope that I'm in range of the primary.

2. Pick a unit in the rear that is out of range of everything, but in the line of the raiders I want to be able to shoot....measuring range tells me how far it is from the raider up front to the primary target.

Is the next step to outlaw geometric reasoning as a form of pre-measuring? After all, if you know the distance to enough landmarks on the table and can do the math fast enough, you can figure out the distances without needing to get out a tape measure.

You're allowed to measure the vehicles movement, and explicitly allowed by the rules to measure in one direction and then move in a completely different direction. Maybe, this is to allow someone to avoid going in one direction, ending up horribly short of an objective and getting stuck in a terrible position by letting that unit go somewhere else. Given that it would be perfectly allowable to measure to a spot two or three inches to the right of the vehicle, go "Oh, that would be a bad spot", and then measure in the complete opposite direction, I don't see any reasonable grounds to make the distinction.

Then again, reading through the first six pages of this thread, I'm half expecting to see an error message when I hit submit.

insaniak wrote:

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

That's not what people are saying.

It's perfectly acceptable to glean whatever information comes along with legal measurement.

What people are saying in this thread is that measuring something that the rules don't allow you to measure and dressing up that action as doing something completely different in order to get around that restriction is not acceptable.

But those are one and the same thing. Measuring 24" out from a raider is a legal measurement. Gleaning that a battlewagon is 19" away along that 24" path is gleaned from the legal measurement. Intending to find out in the first place how far away the battlewagon is can be gleaned through the use of a legal measurement.

So...how old are all of the people involved in this?

If you tell me that you are all 18+ years of age, I may just have to give up on humanity.
Tourny play is just something that isn't terribly interesting to me for reasons such as this.

Legal but... pushing the rules. I dunno. It was made under a perfectly legal measurement, but it's definitely taking advantage of RAW. If I was playing, I wouldn't let my opponent do it, but if I don't catch it, it's not like he cheated. I wouldn't do it. I just gauge about how wide my hips/forearms/hands are, walk around the table and use that to judge from a noncheaty distance. Legal, and less shady.

Personally, unless you are actually intending on making such a move, I wouldn't do it. RAI is rules as INTENDED for a reason. Know what they mean, not what they say, amiright?

Keep up the Batreps though Dash. THey're good stuff. And Primarch? It was kinda lame, but that's no reason to cool a friendship. Warhammer is a board game after all... hopefully the pair of you can fix this.

Che-Vito wrote:So...how old are all of the people involved in this?

If you tell me that you are all 18+ years of age, I may just have to give up on humanity.
Tourny play is just something that isn't terribly interesting to me for reasons such as this.

Tell me, do you denigrate professional sports for this same reason?

The olympics?

Chess?

Anything else which has rules and is played in a competitive setting?

Dashofpepper wrote:I thought of another situation where this is applicable.

I have a line of raiders with multiple targets available at different ranges. One of those targets is most important to me, but potentially out of range of several vehicles. My choices:

1. Declare a target with one of my lances in range of a secondary target, and hope that I'm in range of the primary.

2. Pick a unit in the rear that is out of range of everything, but in the line of the raiders I want to be able to shoot....measuring range tells me how far it is from the raider up front to the primary target.

And just as shady.

Using something that is obviously well out of range to determine something that may be in range is more shady than the actual topic, imo. It's no different than using laspistols to measure the range of an earthshaker cannon. Let's see. . .I wanna fire my laspistols at that unit that seems a bit far away. Oooh, 119". Just out of range. But my basilisk can reach!

"Corporal! Fire on that daemon prince!"

"But, sir, he's so far away. . .I can't even see him!"

"It's okay. Fire anyway. I want to see if my basilisks can reach him!"

o.O

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:So...how old are all of the people involved in this?

If you tell me that you are all 18+ years of age, I may just have to give up on humanity.
Tourny play is just something that isn't terribly interesting to me for reasons such as this.

Tell me, do you denigrate professional sports for this same reason?

The olympics?

Chess?

Anything else which has rules and is played in a competitive setting?

When was the last time that the Olympics consistently had unclear rules, in a variety of situations?
Not in our lifetime.

Che-Vito wrote:When was the last time that the Olympics consistently had unclear rules, in a variety of situations?
Not in our lifetime.

I dunno, for my money soccer has rules that can be interpreted a number of different ways depending on where you're standing, and it's included.

@primarch

While i'll agree that it's not something I'd do it's something that's completely legit. You are saying that the intent behind a measurement (when the measurement itself is legal) can make the measurement cheating. It's not cheating. He can move anywhere within 24" and so can measure it. I wouldn't have thought a thing of it to be honest since I would think he might be planting his vehicle in front of my BW to keep it from moving on a 3+. Now I realize he told you what he was doing and why. But to be honest I still don't see a problem with it.

Like Gwar has pointed out your upset about the method it seems. And are mistaking the method for cheating. Dash is a very rules oriented person and he and I have had some "discussions" about rule interpretations before which have been just shy of arguements if only because we didn't start yelling . And RAW vs. RAI.

And sadly the more I read this the more I'm coming down on the perfectly legit side. To be honest I know i've declared shooting with some of my units to see about how far out of range I am. Granted I only measure to the range of the gun but because my intent is to see if I should move 12" next turn or just 6" and shoot according to you I'd be cheating.

Basically I didn't even think of this as an issue and probably wouldn't if someone didn't explain to me what they were doing and why. then I'd probably get mildly pissy (I'm human and just got played ) but I'd accept that it's legal. In fact I don't think a lot of people even think about it to be honest.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:When was the last time that the Olympics consistently had unclear rules, in a variety of situations?
Not in our lifetime.

I dunno, for my money soccer has rules that can be interpreted a number of different ways depending on where you're standing, and it's included.

Part of why I love Curling. It's a sport that has rules, and penalties. Breaking the rules offers absolutely no gain to those breaking it. (thinking of particular basketball strategies that revolve around fouling on purpose.)

On-topic: My Inquisitorial Stormtroopers can pre-measure before deciding to shoot. In fact, the Targetter is designed so that you can see if your unit is with 24". Odd, no?

Primarch wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:it is legal to pre measure a units maximum movement from its base in any direction and decide to move how ever he wishes - if he uses that information obtained to protect himself it is completely legal (information is power in battle)

So the rules that say it's not legal to pre-measure my movement are to be ignored? Are they going to put this in the INAT? I wonder how many rules I can break because there is another rule in the book?

That's what you are all asking to happen here.


Rule 1- You are allowed to pre-measure your own stuff.
Rule 2- You are NOT allowed to pre-measure your opponents stuff.


Oh, disregard rule number 2, because rule number 1 exists? Really?


Clay

The rules say that in his movement faze he may measure 24" around his model, though it is stated that this is to determine where his model can go once this information has been obtained he may do with it what he will. That includes estimating how close your are, or if you're within 24" of him measuring exactly how close you are. So long as he measured from his own model and his tape measure was extended to 24" or under he was legal no matter what he said or thought. As he did not measure from your model to obtain this information and obtained it as a by product of measuring for the purposes of his own movement it is 100% legal no matter how you may screech otherwise.

In short, you're assuming, perhaps correctly, that this entirely legal move was done to obtain information on what your model may or may not be able to do. While his words may have stated this fact, the rules make it legal as they way he obtained his information is well within the rules. To whine about how unfair it is shows you as a poor sport and a weak player. Next time come to the table better prepared and use the rules to the fullest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

According to your logic, measuring from anything to anything is illegal because when you calculate the distance between point A and point B, you also magically discover the distance between point B and point A. And that must be illegal, because you don't control point B!

Here's another situation: I have a tactical squad and a Land Raider right next to eachother. In front of these two units is a unit of Berserkers. In my shooting phase I decide to shoot a single lascannon at the Berserkers, and I note that during measurement that the Berserkers are 11" away. I then decide to Run my tactical squad away from the Berserkers so they are no longer within assault range.

According to your logic, what has just transpired above is illegal; because in measuring the distance between the Lascannon Sponson and the Berserkers I also somehow "discovered" their charge range and took action accordingly.

The difference, as its been pointed out in this thread, is intent. You didn't intend to find out that information, you simply gleaned it from your shooting. What happened with Dash and Primarch was the opposite. Dash measured with the intent to find out how far his opponent could move and charge. He even told his opponent this.

Legal: Yes. Disguised as measuring your movement.

Against the spirit of the rules: Maybe. That's what the poll is for.

Intent can never make something cheating unless the rules specifically cover intent and how to determine it. Thus nothing Dash said or thought could have made what he did illegal and I would play him a game and use and allow such a thing to be used without issue. That some are immature enough to whine when somebody plays by the rules shows how emotionally invested they are in a game of plastic men. They are hurt and take it as a personal attack, the other person was simply playing by the rules of the game with intent to win, after all few play games and enter tournaments with the intent to lose.

The only illegal thing Dash did was be open about his motives.

What's more a couple of people keep telling us that they 'know' how the 'top players' of an area never do this.
One) Reading minds is a really nice trick can you teach me?
Two) Seriously, Pythagorean theorem anyone? (as has been mentioned many times) second One knows the distances between a set of three points on the board One know most of the measurements elsewhere too, many peoples 'Bionic Eye' very in accuracy but I think it's rare to be out by more than 2' in the worst of cases for most people.... Dammit I was sure there was a poll about eyes before.

Dashofpepper wrote:I thought of another situation where this is applicable.

I have a line of raiders with multiple targets available at different ranges. One of those targets is most important to me, but potentially out of range of several vehicles. My choices:

1. Declare a target with one of my lances in range of a secondary target, and hope that I'm in range of the primary.

2. Pick a unit in the rear that is out of range of everything, but in the line of the raiders I want to be able to shoot....measuring range tells me how far it is from the raider up front to the primary target.

Legal, and less shady. Like... range-finding with artillery.

Che-Vito wrote:So...how old are all of the people involved in this?

If you tell me that you are all 18+ years of age, I may just have to give up on humanity.
Tourny play is just something that isn't terribly interesting to me for reasons such as this.

Quit trolling!

Norade wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:it is legal to pre measure a units maximum movement from its base in any direction and decide to move how ever he wishes - if he uses that information obtained to protect himself it is completely legal (information is power in battle)

So the rules that say it's not legal to pre-measure my movement are to be ignored? Are they going to put this in the INAT? I wonder how many rules I can break because there is another rule in the book?

That's what you are all asking to happen here.


Rule 1- You are allowed to pre-measure your own stuff.
Rule 2- You are NOT allowed to pre-measure your opponents stuff.


Oh, disregard rule number 2, because rule number 1 exists? Really?


Clay

The rules say that in his movement faze he may measure 24" around his model, though it is stated that this is to determine where his model can go once this information has been obtained he may do with it what he will. That includes estimating how close your are, or if you're within 24" of him measuring exactly how close you are. So long as he measured from his own model and his tape measure was extended to 24" or under he was legal no matter what he said or thought. As he did not measure from your model to obtain this information and obtained it as a by product of measuring for the purposes of his own movement it is 100% legal no matter how you may screech otherwise.

In short, you're assuming, perhaps correctly, that this entirely legal move was done to obtain information on what your model may or may not be able to do. While his words may have stated this fact, the rules make it legal as they way he obtained his information is well within the rules. To whine about how unfair it is shows you as a poor sport and a weak player. Next time come to the table better prepared and use the rules to the fullest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

According to your logic, measuring from anything to anything is illegal because when you calculate the distance between point A and point B, you also magically discover the distance between point B and point A. And that must be illegal, because you don't control point B!

Here's another situation: I have a tactical squad and a Land Raider right next to eachother. In front of these two units is a unit of Berserkers. In my shooting phase I decide to shoot a single lascannon at the Berserkers, and I note that during measurement that the Berserkers are 11" away. I then decide to Run my tactical squad away from the Berserkers so they are no longer within assault range.

According to your logic, what has just transpired above is illegal; because in measuring the distance between the Lascannon Sponson and the Berserkers I also somehow "discovered" their charge range and took action accordingly.

The difference, as its been pointed out in this thread, is intent. You didn't intend to find out that information, you simply gleaned it from your shooting. What happened with Dash and Primarch was the opposite. Dash measured with the intent to find out how far his opponent could move and charge. He even told his opponent this.

Legal: Yes. Disguised as measuring your movement.

Against the spirit of the rules: Maybe. That's what the poll is for.

Intent can never make something cheating unless the rules specifically cover intent and how to determine it. Thus nothing Dash said or thought could have made what he did illegal and I would play him a game and use and allow such a thing to be used without issue. That some are immature enough to whine when somebody plays by the rules shows how emotionally invested they are in a game of plastic men. They are hurt and take it as a personal attack, the other person was simply playing by the rules of the game with intent to win, after all few play games and enter tournaments with the intent to lose.

Apparently reading comprehension for most of you is just too hard.

The rules also say you cannot pre-measure the other guy's movement/charge. If you put a tape measure on the table and use it explicitly to measure my movement, which is what happened here, then you are breaking that rule.

As to your commentary on being a weak/whiny player. Learn to read. I never brought any of this up, I am responding to Dash's post. Learn to not be weak at reading comprehension, and next time come to the forums better prepared to argue an actual point.


Clay


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Clearly quite a few of you either can't read, or choose not to. The facts are that you are not allowed by rule to pre-measure your opponents move/charge range. No amount of "sneaky, tactical" or whatever you want to call it BS, changes that fact.

The only rule that allows you to pre-measure tells you exactly what the conditions are, and makes NO mention of pre-measuring your opponent being allowed. I think the wording is pretty clear.

If you are measuring only your possible movement with the intent of possibly moving your vehicle in x direction, then fine. If you put the tape measure down with absolutely no intention of moving, but instead you are using that measurement SOLELY for checking your opponents move/charge range, then BY RAW, you are cheating.

I love how the RAW people are only RAW people when it suits them.


Clay

Primarch wrote:

Norade wrote:

Primarch wrote:

Catachan_Devil wrote:it is legal to pre measure a units maximum movement from its base in any direction and decide to move how ever he wishes - if he uses that information obtained to protect himself it is completely legal (information is power in battle)

So the rules that say it's not legal to pre-measure my movement are to be ignored? Are they going to put this in the INAT? I wonder how many rules I can break because there is another rule in the book?

That's what you are all asking to happen here.


Rule 1- You are allowed to pre-measure your own stuff.
Rule 2- You are NOT allowed to pre-measure your opponents stuff.


Oh, disregard rule number 2, because rule number 1 exists? Really?


Clay

The rules say that in his movement faze he may measure 24" around his model, though it is stated that this is to determine where his model can go once this information has been obtained he may do with it what he will. That includes estimating how close your are, or if you're within 24" of him measuring exactly how close you are. So long as he measured from his own model and his tape measure was extended to 24" or under he was legal no matter what he said or thought. As he did not measure from your model to obtain this information and obtained it as a by product of measuring for the purposes of his own movement it is 100% legal no matter how you may screech otherwise.

In short, you're assuming, perhaps correctly, that this entirely legal move was done to obtain information on what your model may or may not be able to do. While his words may have stated this fact, the rules make it legal as they way he obtained his information is well within the rules. To whine about how unfair it is shows you as a poor sport and a weak player. Next time come to the table better prepared and use the rules to the fullest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:

unbeliever87 wrote:This thread is silly. According to RAW it's completely legal to pre-measure movement, and everyone here accepts that, but suddenly it's illegal to glean information out of that measurement?

According to your logic, measuring from anything to anything is illegal because when you calculate the distance between point A and point B, you also magically discover the distance between point B and point A. And that must be illegal, because you don't control point B!

Here's another situation: I have a tactical squad and a Land Raider right next to eachother. In front of these two units is a unit of Berserkers. In my shooting phase I decide to shoot a single lascannon at the Berserkers, and I note that during measurement that the Berserkers are 11" away. I then decide to Run my tactical squad away from the Berserkers so they are no longer within assault range.

According to your logic, what has just transpired above is illegal; because in measuring the distance between the Lascannon Sponson and the Berserkers I also somehow "discovered" their charge range and took action accordingly.

The difference, as its been pointed out in this thread, is intent. You didn't intend to find out that information, you simply gleaned it from your shooting. What happened with Dash and Primarch was the opposite. Dash measured with the intent to find out how far his opponent could move and charge. He even told his opponent this.

Legal: Yes. Disguised as measuring your movement.

Against the spirit of the rules: Maybe. That's what the poll is for.

Intent can never make something cheating unless the rules specifically cover intent and how to determine it. Thus nothing Dash said or thought could have made what he did illegal and I would play him a game and use and allow such a thing to be used without issue. That some are immature enough to whine when somebody plays by the rules shows how emotionally invested they are in a game of plastic men. They are hurt and take it as a personal attack, the other person was simply playing by the rules of the game with intent to win, after all few play games and enter tournaments with the intent to lose.

Apparently reading comprehension for most of you is just too hard.

The rules also say you cannot pre-measure the other guy's movement/charge. If you put a tape measure on the table and use it explicitly to measure my movement, which is what happened here, then you are breaking that rule.

As to your commentary on being a weak/whiny player. Learn to read. I never brought any of this up, I am responding to Dash's post. Learn to not be weak at reading comprehension, and next time come to the forums better prepared to argue an actual point.


Clay

How do you propose he measure to or from anything that passes over your vehicle then smart guy? Any measuring he does that passes that close will show how far from him you are, he already knows how far you can move, so he isn't measuring your movement. After all how can he measure something you haven't done yet? After all for all he knows you could move sideways or go backwards, this applies to everybody who isn't a mind reader like you must be to magically know everybody's intent all the time.

On reading comprehension you are the one who fails. Rules pertaining to what he can measure that happen to overlap rules about what he can't measure over ride those rules. Thus no matter what his stated intention is he was allowed to measure 24" from his raider as he could use to to measure movement if he so chose. If he happens to find out how far away your vehicle is and uses that info to his advantage that is a bonus. Unless you can show some way that he can still measure from his model out to 24" and all points in between without also learning how far away your model is you have no point.

Lastly, you come off as whiny because of how you repeat the same wrong things over and over again and attack Dash for playing by the rules. You could have said one thing and left instead of crying over how Dash butthurt you and beat you at a tourney using perfectly legal means. He tried to be the bigger man, you admitted you're a pushover and gave him everything and now this must be your petty revenge.

Primarch wrote:Clearly quite a few of you either can't read, or choose not to. The facts are that you are not allowed by rule to pre-measure your opponents move/charge range. No amount of "sneaky, tactical" or whatever you want to call it BS, changes that fact.

The only rule that allows you to pre-measure tells you exactly what the conditions are, and makes NO mention of pre-measuring your opponent being allowed. I think the wording is pretty clear.

If you are measuring only your possible movement with the intent of possibly moving your vehicle in x direction, then fine. If you put the tape measure down with absolutely no intention of moving, but instead you are using that measurement SOLELY for checking your opponents move/charge range, then BY RAW, you are cheating.

I love how the RAW people are only RAW people when it suits them.


Clay

It isn't pre-measuring you fool, he is measuring potential places he can move, while he might also happen to learn where you can move that is entirely secondary. As far as intent = cheating, please show where the rule say that you have to 100% intend to move there before you measure where your vehicle can potentially go. Afterall that measurement certainly had an effect on where he moved to thus by RAW he was measuring to determine where he was going to go, he didn't measure from anything not his own model, or extend the tape beyond 24" thus he was in the clear. Is there any clearer way I can say this?

This thread is closed while it is reviewed to see if suspensions are warranted.

EDIT. This thread is now being re-opened. Multiple warnings and suspensions have been given out. Flaming posts after this public warning to all will be assumed to be direct requests for 3 day suspensions from the poster to this moderator. If you post such and then see this warning you have the option of editing the post yourself or reporting and request that a mod delete the post.

Dear Clay,

In summary, you are seem upset because he said, "I am premeasuring your charge range", while legally measuring range for a legal reason. Had he kept his mouth shut about it, it probably wouldn't have even come up.

That said, he didn't violate any rules by measuring his own range, and saying he was checking yours. He didn't use his tape measure in a way unallowed by the rules, nor move illegally.

If you feel that he violated the spirit of the rules, speak to him and the TO, and just ignore the flame war. That said, you have gotten involved, and have given a strong impression of someone that is simply upset that they lost. If you don't want to give that impression, than take the high road.

-Che

I would like to add this entire scenario occurred at a tournament, not in a pick-up game.

While the venue might not have changed either player's tactics, I would wager that it would definitely have changed the overall mood of the game, as well as lessened the blow of losing (or the stress of trying to win so desperately).

I do remain in the camp that measuring the entire movement 'bubble' of your own unit is legal, and that using that information to process exactly where you need to place said unit for certain events to occur (or not occur, as in this case) is also legal and a sign of foresight and planning.

*edit* also since enemy vehicles and models count as impassible, the 'bubble' would effectively change shape to avoid these models and thus you would have your model-to-model distances legally measured as well. The mental math required for 'charge range' is just from knowing an opponent's list well. *end edit*

Clay actually had some good points... They just weren't presented in a very constructive manner.

His basic idea that the rules specifically say that pre-measuring range for shooting and assaults are right there in the rules is true. Using your movement measurement to find a way to do this in a "legal" way is a pretty shady thing to do.

He was also right to say that any amount of rationalization doesn't make it an okay thing to do.

Monster Rain wrote:Clay actually had some good points... They just weren't presented in a very constructive manner.

His basic idea that the rules specifically say that pre-measuring range for shooting and assaults are right there in the rules is true. Using your movement measurement to find a way to do this in a "legal" way is a pretty shady thing to do.

He was also right to say that any amount of rationalization doesn't make it an okay thing to do.

Agreed. By using one rule, you break another. Why break one rule when you could avoid it altogether and break none? Estimate your opponent's move and charge range and do your best to get outside of it. Err on the side of caution instead of measuring your opponent's movement and charge range to allow no room for error.

For those that are against the manner or intent of the measurement allowed by the rules, then how do you purpose that such measurements are done so that they aren't "cheating"?

Don't measure from your unit to your opponent's unit.

Pretty simple, really.

Monster Rain wrote:Don't measure from your unit to your opponent's unit.

Pretty simple, really.

So if I have a fast skimmer that can move 24" and my opponent has a vehicle of theirs say 12" away from my skimmer, I cannot move anywhere past their vehicle because I cannot measure to said space because to do so would allow me to measure to said opponent's vehicle? That's denying quite a bit of space where I could potentially move, but now cannot because to do so would require some form of measurement involving my skimmer, the space I want to possibly move to and my opponent's vehicle which is in the direct line I may want to move. That doesn't seem right to me.

I think i understand Puma, Primarch, and Monster_Rain a little better after giving this some more thought:

Part of 40k is supposed to be a guessing game (as in, you can't measure assault ranges until after you declare. If you were wrong, oops, sucks to be you)

They and many other players wish to play hard and capitalize on their opponents' mistakes (we all make them). This tactic of movement-measurement to prevent any mistakes on 'how far should i move to avoid this' statement removes one of the guesswork facets of 40k.

While i understand this mindset, I have to say in this particular instance it is still legal to do what Dash did. It sucks that the ork player did not get to jump on an error caused by a miscalculation in guesswork, but i feel he still could have won regardless.

Has anybody mentioned that now knowing the DE vehicle was exactly 31" away there would be no reason for the MANz to disembark, there wouldn't be charge range, thus the information could have equally aided BOTH players? Just a thought.

Wow, what a thread.

This whole situation is why I will never be interested in tournaments, the attitudes of the competative players are polar opposite to me. BUT I respect the tournament scene, and understand that you can have differences in how you play.

To the question in hand, having read both sides fully, I do think it was shadey. But I can see it is also legal. I believe Dash used a rule to his advantage, but I do not believe he was wrong to do so. I also believe he did not anticipate the problem it caused, and if he did would not have done it.

If you're moving past it you're not measuring farther than you intend to move, are you?

Again, it's not about measuring your movement, it's about intentionally measuring in such as way as to note the exact distance between models.

Monster Rain wrote:If you're moving past it you're not measuring farther than you intend to move, are you?

Again, it's not about measuring your movement, it's about intentionally measuring in such as way as to note the exact distance between models.

Which is perfectly fine and permitted by the rules.

All of this has me thinking a few things:

Would the two people playing a game of 40k like for a 3rd party that isn't playing to make all the measurements for the players while they go out and smoke or something so that no information can be gleaned in such a manner?

Are there any blind people that play 40k? I would be quite impressed if there are any and would be in awe of them. I wonder what their take on this would be.

Gwar! wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:If you're moving past it you're not measuring farther than you intend to move, are you?

Again, it's not about measuring your movement, it's about intentionally measuring in such as way as to note the exact distance between models.

Which is perfectly fine and permitted by the rules.

Not really. But I'm not wasting any more time on a circular argument. See the above posts for my position on the subject.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:All of this has me thinking a few things:

Would the two people playing a game of 40k like for a 3rd party that isn't playing to make all the measurements for the players while they go out and smoke or something so that no information can be gleaned in such a manner?

No.

Frazzled wrote:

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:All of this has me thinking a few things:

Would the two people playing a game of 40k like for a 3rd party that isn't playing to make all the measurements for the players while they go out and smoke or something so that no information can be gleaned in such a manner?

No.

I agree with Frazzled.

For clarity. I am not mad because I lost, not in the slightest. It wasn't the first time he beat me in a tournament. I don't think you can go back through his batt reps and find the other report to have caused so much of a problem.

I questioned the move when it happened, and was happy to let it go afterward. He brought it up for rules debate and I joined in. I really don't know how that makes me any of the names Ive been called.

Back on topic.

I don't think the rules allow you to measure your opponents movement. Can anyone refute this point with a rules quote?

I don't think you can really police this as a group or TO. Does anyone even want to refute this?

With regards to the actual measuring rules, I don't see that this issue is quite as clear as some make it out to be. Thoughts?



Clay

Came back, without stating any more points since my argument in this is done an over.
Look at the poll.

95% = legal
5% = illegal

(Currently)

Primarch wrote:For clarity. I am not mad because I lost, not in the slightest. It wasn't the first time he beat me in a tournament. I don't think you can go back through his batt reps and find the other report to have caused so much of a problem.

I questioned the move when it happened, and was happy to let it go afterward. He brought it up for rules debate and I joined in. I really don't know how that makes me any of the names Ive been called.

Back on topic.

I don't think the rules allow you to measure your opponents movement. Can anyone refute this point with a rules quote?

Not with a rules quote, however he is measuring his movement, and, good for him, finding out the distance between you and him.

I don't think you can really police this as a group or TO. Does anyone even want to refute this?

No

With regards to the actual measuring rules, I don't see that this issue is quite as clear as some make it out to be. Thoughts?

I agree with you 100% about this.



Clay

In actual play, precise measurement for movement and/or range typically only comes up when at the hard limit (i.e., is that unit 6" away, or 6-1/16" away? Is that rhino 47" away from my ML, or 49" away?). What I see the vast majority of the time is this:

1) Player extends tape measure to the limit of the unit's move or weapon range.
2a) If moving, player either moves the unit to the end of the tape or places a finger at the end of the tape before moving the unit to that spot.
2b) If shooting, player extends the tape towards the target unit. If the end of the tape reaches the unit, dice hit the table.

As outlined above, the moving/shooting player doesn't typically determine the range to an exact degree (other than the hard limit of the end of the tape measure). As an example, when shooting an assault cannon at a land speeder, I don't take the time to find out that it is 21-3/8" away; I just make a quick check to see if it's as close or closer to me than the end of the tape.

As I mentioned in the actual batrep thread, the correct/legal way for dash to do what he did would be:

1) Extend the tape 24", rotate it around the raider to determine it's movement range
2) Estimate that the enemy unit was about 19" away.
3) Deduce the amount of his own movement needed to avoid an assault

Part 2 is the whole key to the issue, as far as I'm concerned. By taking the time to determine the exact distance between the raider and the BW, Dash took a measurement that was unrelated to his own movement. Obviously, there are any number of situations where making one measurement will also give you some information about another measurement. To a degree, this is unavoidable. So long as you restrict yourself to estimation and deduction--you are in the clear. On the other hand, if you take unnecessarily precise measurements for reasons unrelated to what you are ostensibly measuring, then you are breaking the rules.

This, I believe, is RAW. The rules say you are allowed to premeasure X. INTENTIONALLY measuring X+Y, regardless of the manner in which you do it, is not in keeping with the rules.

Primarch wrote:
Back on topic.

I don't think the rules allow you to measure your opponents movement. Can anyone refute this point with a rules quote?

I don't think you can really police this as a group or TO. Does anyone even want to refute this?

With regards to the actual measuring rules, I don't see that this issue is quite as clear as some make it out to be. Thoughts?



Clay

I agree with your first point, but I think that at the very least you and I have a different way of interpreting what that means. I take it to mean that in my movement phase it would be illegal for me to take a tape measure to your unit/vehicle/whatever and measure out from that unit its maximum movement bubble. That would be me measuring my opponent's movement. I do take it as it allows me to measure from my own unit the maximum distance that my unit is allowed to move. If other units, yours, mine, terrain are in that bubble of my own unit's movement and I happen to see that while measuring, then so be it.

As to your second point, I also agree, this is something that needs to be addressed with the players before you start a game, as it seems there can be different interpretations of the measuring rules.

Edit:

3rd part got cut off for some reason, but yes I agree it is not as clear cut as I think anyone thought it was.

Primarch wrote:
I don't think the rules allow you to measure your opponents movement. Can anyone refute this point with a rules quote?

I don't think you can really police this as a group or TO. Does anyone even want to refute this?

With regards to the actual measuring rules, I don't see that this issue is quite as clear as some make it out to be. Thoughts?


Clay

(1) The rules allow you to measure distances for your own movement (which he did), which can also give you how far away your opponent is (which is legal). The fact that he said it may have caused confusion (which it did.), so next time he can just not say it and avoid the issue (which I suggest.)

(2) Why refute it? It is legal.

(3) If I know that by measuring my shooting/movement to you, it is 24", then I also know that it is 24" from your unit to mine. I have thus gleaned obvious information, in a legal manner. He is legally allowed to measure his movement (which he did.) It is *very* clear.

syanticraven wrote:Came back, without stating any more points since my argument in this is done an over.
Look at the poll.

95% = legal
5% = illegal

(Currently)

True, but almost half of the "legal" crowd also thinks it breaks the spirit of the rules. Relevant? Not sure, but it's telling.



Clay

Primarch wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Came back, without stating any more points since my argument in this is done an over.
Look at the poll.

95% = legal
5% = illegal

(Currently)

True, but almost half of the "legal" crowd also thinks it breaks the spirit of the rules. Relevant? Not sure, but it's telling.



Clay

I don't think most of the arguments are about whether or not it's legal. They seem to be more about whether or not it's a lame thing to do.

Che-Vito wrote:(3) If I know that by measuring my shooting/movement to you, it is 24", then I also know that it is 24" from your unit to mine. I have thus gleaned obvious information, in a legal manner.

That depends on the manner in which you measure.

Say you are shooting an assault cannon. You extend the tape 24", put the spool of the tape at the end of the weapon, and see if the target is as close or closer than the end of the tape.

Perfectly legal, and whether the target is in range or not can be determined in... oh... a tenth of a second.

On the other hand, if you lay the tape between target and firer and then take a second or two to determine that the exact range between the two is 11-7/8"--which, 'coincidentally' tells you whether or not the target is within melta range for your 2nd, adjacent firing unit--I would argue that you are clearly taking a measurement which you are not entitled to take.

Monster Rain wrote:

Primarch wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Came back, without stating any more points since my argument in this is done an over.
Look at the poll.

95% = legal
5% = illegal

(Currently)

True, but almost half of the "legal" crowd also thinks it breaks the spirit of the rules. Relevant? Not sure, but it's telling.



Clay

I don't think most of the arguments are about whether or not it's legal. They seem to be more about whether or not it's a lame thing to do.

Your lame may be my first place at a tournament and using the rules will not cheapen it one bit as we all stand on a level playing field in the regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CatPeeler wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:(3) If I know that by measuring my shooting/movement to you, it is 24", then I also know that it is 24" from your unit to mine. I have thus gleaned obvious information, in a legal manner.

That depends on the manner in which you measure.

Say you are shooting an assault cannon. You extend the tape 24", put the spool of the tape at the end of the weapon, and see if the target is as close or closer than the end of the tape.

Perfectly legal, and whether the target is in range or not can be determined in... oh... a tenth of a second.

On the other hand, if you lay the tape between target and firer and then take a second or two to determine that the exact range between the two is 11-7/8"--which, 'coincidentally' tells you whether or not the target is within melta range for your 2nd, adjacent firing unit--I would argue that you are clearly taking a measurement which you are not entitled to take.

Please explain how it is illegal to measure more precisely in some cases than in others. Sometimes the extra numbers matter, and other times you skip gathering that info. They are both equally legal.

Monster Rain wrote:Please explain how it is illegal to measure more precisely in some cases than in others. Sometimes the extra numbers matter, and other times you skip gathering that info. They are both equally legal.

If the rules allow you to measure X, and you intentionally measure X + Y, you are doing more than what the rules allow you to do.

CatPeeler wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:(3) If I know that by measuring my shooting/movement to you, it is 24", then I also know that it is 24" from your unit to mine. I have thus gleaned obvious information, in a legal manner.

That depends on the manner in which you measure.

Say you are shooting an assault cannon. You extend the tape 24", put the spool of the tape at the end of the weapon, and see if the target is as close or closer than the end of the tape.

Perfectly legal, and whether the target is in range or not can be determined in... oh... a tenth of a second.

On the other hand, if you lay the tape between target and firer and then take a second or two to determine that the exact range between the two is 11-7/8"--which, 'coincidentally' tells you whether or not the target is within melta range for your 2nd, adjacent firing unit--I would argue that you are clearly taking a measurement which you are not entitled to take.

There is no time limit on how long I can hold my tape measure/rod/reel to measure. None.

Che-Vito wrote:There is no time limit on how long I can hold my tape measure/rod/reel to measure. None.

Sure. There is, however, a limit on what you are allowed to measure.

Ultimately, you have to answer to yourself. I can certainly limit the information gleaned from my tape to what the rules allow me to measure. I can also certainly measure more than that without making it obvious.

In the second case, though, *I* would know that I had broken the rules.

Primarch wrote:

syanticraven wrote:Came back, without stating any more points since my argument in this is done an over.
Look at the poll.

95% = legal
5% = illegal

(Currently)

True, but almost half of the "legal" crowd also thinks it breaks the spirit of the rules. Relevant? Not sure, but it's telling.



Clay

Which is why I made this thread. Its quite clearly legal, but the fact that a significant portion of people find it unsporting means this is something I wouldn't add to my regular repetoire of tactical advantages.

Clay, that was my point - not to argue whether you or I was right - but to acknowledge that you made a claim that I hadn't considered before, and I wanted to get a wide reaction to that claim. Lots of folks agree with your viewpoint (not of its illegality, but that it isn't the spirit of the rules), so I find your views valid and acceptable.

I'm not the WAAC player you think I am.

CatPeeler wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:(3) If I know that by measuring my shooting/movement to you, it is 24", then I also know that it is 24" from your unit to mine. I have thus gleaned obvious information, in a legal manner.

That depends on the manner in which you measure.

Say you are shooting an assault cannon. You extend the tape 24", put the spool of the tape at the end of the weapon, and see if the target is as close or closer than the end of the tape.

Perfectly legal, and whether the target is in range or not can be determined in... oh... a tenth of a second.

On the other hand, if you lay the tape between target and firer and then take a second or two to determine that the exact range between the two is 11-7/8"--which, 'coincidentally' tells you whether or not the target is within melta range for your 2nd, adjacent firing unit--I would argue that you are clearly taking a measurement which you are not entitled to take.

Actually, the shooting rules tell you to measure the distance between the firing model and the target model, not simply check that the distance is less than the maximum range.

And honestly, the argument verges on the absurd for two reasons:
1) Rules interpretations that rely on thoughtcrime render the game immediately unplayable, as you'll never be able to be sure that the other guy isn't intending to cheat. Why did he deploy that unit in that spot? Is it because it provides him a known baseline distance to perform basic geometry and deduce ranges? What about objective placement - he knows that those objectives are 12" apart, and 12" off the board edge, which can be used for all kinds of devious non-measurements.

2) Most of the time, accuracy to within 1" is adequate for "pre-measuring" purposes, and that's information that is gleaned almost instantly even when measuring as you propose.

Technically legal but so against the spirit of the rules as to name it illegal.

Seriously, if you want a chess match-esque wargame go play MechWarrior where they let (and openly encourage) you to waste time measuring all over creation. If you want a more narrative driven, chancy, and skill based game play 40k by the spirit of the thing.

@Janthkin: Again, it's a matter of self-policing. Obviously, there are times when one measurement will unavoidably tell you more than you need. There are also times when how you measure may tell you a lot more than what you need. Ultimately, it's on you.

While I think an obvious abuser of... let's call it "multi-measurement"... would be fairly easy to spot (inordinately long measurement times for distances that clearly aren't relevant, etc), it would, admittedly, be problematic to enforce at a tournament. You can certainly raise the issue with your opponent, however, and/or bring it to the attention of the judge. If nothing else, it would put them under some scrutiny.

My suggestions regarding the manner of measurement were offered as a way to measure distances while also avoiding the appearance of any impropriety. It goes right along with picking up failed dice rather than successes, or declaring everything you are rolling for before doing so. Avoiding behavior that would arouse suspicion--whether warranted or not--is a good practice in general.

Janthkin wrote:And honestly, the argument verges on the absurd for two reasons:
1) Rules interpretations that rely on thoughtcrime render the game immediately unplayable, as you'll never be able to be sure that the other guy isn't intending to cheat.

Sorry, but this is still completely missing the point of the intent argument... which was simply that intending to cheat is what makes it cheating, whether or not your opponent knows that you're cheating. Nobody is trying to claim that rules should be enforced based on player intention.


I should point out that before going further that I'm not accusing Dash of being a cheat. He (IMO) broke the rules of the game... but he appears to have done so because of the way he expected the rules to work, not through an intention to break those rules.

Here's how this issue breaks down for me:

40K has a ruleset that disallows measurement in all situations except where the rules specifically tell you that you can measure.

Where movement is concerned, the rules allow you to measure where you want a unit to move, and then change your mind and go in a different direction instead. Note that this is not quite the same as simply being able to measure a 6" circle around the miniature... the process that is (admittedly not well) described in the movement section is to measure where you want to go, not to measure everywhere the miniature could possibly go. A small distinction, and one that is admittedly at least in part an extrapolation... I'm sure that some will disagree that it's RAW, but I'm trying to explain how the rules are seen by some, rather than how the strict RAW works, in an effort to make clear why some people feel this is shady.

SO, measurement is explicitly allowed when moving, in order to determine how far the miniature can go. Obviously, then, if you are considering moving your unit up alongside an enemy unit, you need to measure the distance to where you want to go.

But the 'where you want to go' is the key here. Remember, you're given permission to measure to where you want to move the unit, not to any point on the board where the unit could conceivably move to.

Now, with that explanation in mind and before reading any further, go back and read the first post again.


What Dash was trying to do was not measure the distance to somewhere he wanted his unit to move. He dressed it up as a part of the movement process, in that the distance he was measuring was within the unit's movement distance... but there was no intention of moving to that point. He was not 'measuring a unit's move in one direction, then changing his mind and deciding to move it somewhere else' ... He was measuring to the enemy unit for the sole purpose of determining how far away it was, so that he could move far enough in the other direction to be out of charge range.

So what he was doing was using a perceived allowance to measure a specific distance, to measure something that he was not supposed to be measuring at that point. Yes, that's often unavoidable... measuring a shooting range, for example, tells both players how far apart two units are for anything else that affects those two units. But that's a situation where the rules explicitly tell you to measure the distance between those units. Where you're told to measure a distance that only involves one single unit, that measurement should not, wherever possible, have anything to do with any other unit.

And measuring something completely unrelated to that specifically allowed measurement, in a game that only allows measurement under specifically allowed circumstances, should be right out.

After reading 7 pages of this I have come to the conclusion that this is something that I will continue to not do but I would find it hard to make a hard argument to stop my opponent from doing the same. Honestly if an opponent of mine did it I would probably do it for that game as well.

Just one of those rules with alot of people on both sides of the fence. I feel one way but can't quit make a solid enough argument to pull people over the fence to my side.

Like you orky bastages and your magical deathrollas...grumble..grumble...

insaniak wrote:

Janthkin wrote:And honestly, the argument verges on the absurd for two reasons:
1) Rules interpretations that rely on thoughtcrime render the game immediately unplayable, as you'll never be able to be sure that the other guy isn't intending to cheat.

Sorry, but this is still completely missing the point of the intent argument... which was simply that intending to cheat is what makes it cheating, whether or not your opponent knows that you're cheating. Nobody is trying to claim that rules should be enforced based on player intention.


I should point out that before going further that I'm not accusing Dash of being a cheat. He (IMO) broke the rules of the game... but he appears to have done so because of the way he expected the rules to work, not through an intention to break those rules.

Here's how this issue breaks down for me:

40K has a ruleset that disallows measurement in all situations except where the rules specifically tell you that you can measure.

Where movement is concerned, the rules allow you to measure where you want a unit to move, and then change your mind and go in a different direction instead. Note that this is not quite the same as simply being able to measure a 6" circle around the miniature... the process that is (admittedly not well) described in the movement section is to measure where you want to go, not to measure everywhere the miniature could possibly go. A small distinction, and one that is admittedly at least in part an extrapolation... I'm sure that some will disagree that it's RAW, but I'm trying to explain how the rules are seen by some, rather than how the strict RAW works, in an effort to make clear why some people feel this is shady.

SO, measurement is explicitly allowed when moving, in order to determine how far the miniature can go. Obviously, then, if you are considering moving your unit up alongside an enemy unit, you need to measure the distance to where you want to go.

But the 'where you want to go' is the key here. Remember, you're given permission to measure to where you want to move the unit, not to any point on the board where the unit could conceivably move to.

Now, with that explanation in mind and before reading any further, go back and read the first post again.


What Dash was trying to do was not measure the distance to somewhere he wanted his unit to move. He dressed it up as a part of the movement process, in that the distance he was measuring was within the unit's movement distance... but there was no intention of moving to that point. He was not 'measuring a unit's move in one direction, then changing his mind and deciding to move it somewhere else' ... He was measuring to the enemy unit for the sole purpose of determining how far away it was, so that he could move far enough in the other direction to be out of charge range.

So what he was doing was using a perceived allowance to measure a specific distance, to measure something that he was not supposed to be measuring at that point. Yes, that's often unavoidable... measuring a shooting range, for example, tells both players how far apart two units are for anything else that affects those two units. But that's a situation where the rules explicitly tell you to measure the distance between those units. Where you're told to measure a distance that only involves one single unit, that measurement should not, wherever possible, have anything to do with any other unit.

And measuring something completely unrelated to that specifically allowed measurement, in a game that only allows measurement under specifically allowed circumstances, should be right out.

Well said. Probably the best summation of this argument yet.

Agreed.

Agreed, and what I have been trying to say. Sadly for me, he says it a LOT better than me.




Clay

So basically you are saying Thoughtcrime is illegal under 40k rules.

Lovely.

This is only an issue because Dash had declared his intention. Had he not, he could have done this perfectly fine, and he could have honestly wanted to move the unit that way, then changed his mind, AS WELL AS extrapolating distances, and it is perfectly within the rules.

I voted technically legal but going against the spirit of the rules.

The reason for measuring wasn't movement... it was to avoid a charge.

Well said Insaniak. I personally don't have any problem with it after reading all of this and thinking it thru more. I did vote that I felt it broke the spirit and still feel that way but at the same time I don't think I'd even be mildly upset about it anymore. I'd just play the same way.

Gwar! wrote:So basically you are saying Thoughtcrime is illegal under 40k rules.

No, Gwar, I'm not. Nor is anyone else. So you can stop repeating it now.

So if I take my Land Speeder, move it 24", extrapolate that my Long Fangs are oor of your tank from it, then decide to change my mind and move it in a different direction, is that breaking the rules, despite me never stating my "intent" and for all you know I honestly did change my mind for a completely unrelated matter?

Seriously, Gwar, if you're still not getting the point, that's fine. Play it however you see fit.

insaniak wrote:

Janthkin wrote:And honestly, the argument verges on the absurd for two reasons:
1) Rules interpretations that rely on thoughtcrime render the game immediately unplayable, as you'll never be able to be sure that the other guy isn't intending to cheat.

Sorry, but this is still completely missing the point of the intent argument... which was simply that intending to cheat is what makes it cheating, whether or not your opponent knows that you're cheating. Nobody is trying to claim that rules should be enforced based on player intention.

I'm not missing the point of the intent argument - I'm simply raising a concern about trying to apply such an argument. In MY opinion, if a rule interpretation cannot be objectively applied, but instead requires subjective knowledge of a player's intent, it's not a valid interpretation. Any other rule violation can be objectively proved - misremembered weapon skill, misread dice, forgotten special rules, etc. But here, determining whether a rule has been violated requires knowledge of what's going on in the other guy's head, which you ain't going to have (most of the time).

Here's how this issue breaks down for me:
40K has a ruleset that disallows measurement in all situations except where the rules specifically tell you that you can measure.

Granted.

Where movement is concerned, the rules allow you to measure where you want a unit to move, and then change your mind and go in a different direction instead. Note that this is not quite the same as simply being able to measure a 6" circle around the miniature... the process that is (admittedly not well) described in the movement section is to measure where you want to go, not to measure everywhere the miniature could possibly go. A small distinction, and one that is admittedly at least in part an extrapolation... I'm sure that some will disagree that it's RAW, but I'm trying to explain how the rules are seen by some, rather than how the strict RAW works, in an effort to make clear why some people feel this is shady.

SO, measurement is explicitly allowed when moving, in order to determine how far the miniature can go. Obviously, then, if you are considering moving your unit up alongside an enemy unit, you need to measure the distance to where you want to go.

But the 'where you want to go' is the key here. Remember, you're given permission to measure to where you want to move the unit, not to any point on the board where the unit could conceivably move to.

You've constructed a strawman here. The rules permit you to "measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else." There is no "where you want to go" requirement.

So why can't you change your mind about where you want your unit to be, and decide to move far enough to be out of assault range?

Here's my problem with the "subjective intent" argument, reduced to example format. Which of the following scenarios should be "right out"?

Baseline assumption: Player A's Raider is 19" from Player B's Battlewagon.
1) During the preceding shooting phase, Player B's Big Shoota (18" range) was about an inch out of range of the Raider. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.
2) Player A knows exactly how far onto the board his Raider is, as well as the distance to a second Raider/objective/piece of terrain with a known position. He does the mental math required to determine that the Battlewagon is about 19" away. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.
3) Player A knows that the Battlewagon deployed at the front of Player B's 12" deployment zone (or that it drove on during Dawn of War), how far it moved last turn, and where his Raider deployed & moved. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.
4) Player A considers moving his Raider up to block the Battlewagon's movement, and measures accordingly around the battlewagon, to determine his options for landing spots. Then he decides to change plans. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.
5) Player A is indecisive about his options, and swings his 24" measurement out around his Raider, to get a look at his options. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.
6) Player A legitimately considers moving his Raider to every point within it's range, and measures 24" in every direction, changing his mind each time his tape measure moves. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.
7) Player A is an IG player of the Old School, and estimates ranges to 1/4" accuracy. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.
8) Player A measures towards the Battlewagon, and sees that it is 19" away. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.

If Player A "cheating" in any of 1-7? How can an objective observer tell item #8 from 2-6?

While I can understand the desire to "punish" a player for some sort of malign intent, I cannot condone it here. The rules permit a player to measure his model's movement options. At times, those movement options WILL intersect with an opponent's movement options. Knowledge of the distances between units is gained thereby; there is no way to prevent that. Assuming knowledge of the available movement rates available to the opponent, then the potential threat radius of opposing units becomes obvious; there is no way to prevent that, either.

Janthkin wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Janthkin wrote:And honestly, the argument verges on the absurd for two reasons:
1) Rules interpretations that rely on thoughtcrime render the game immediately unplayable, as you'll never be able to be sure that the other guy isn't intending to cheat.

Sorry, but this is still completely missing the point of the intent argument... which was simply that intending to cheat is what makes it cheating, whether or not your opponent knows that you're cheating. Nobody is trying to claim that rules should be enforced based on player intention.

I'm not missing the point of the intent argument - I'm simply raising a concern about trying to apply such an argument. In MY opinion, if a rule interpretation cannot be objectively applied, but instead requires subjective knowledge of a player's intent, it's not a valid interpretation. Any other rule violation can be objectively proved - misremembered weapon skill, misread dice, forgotten special rules, etc. But here, determining whether a rule has been violated requires knowledge of what's going on in the other guy's head, which you ain't going to have (most of the time).

How can you say that something like a "misremembered weapon skill" or "forgotten special rules" can be measured objectively, especially if the special rule is to the player's detriment? "Oops, sorry. I really did forget that a Tervigon's death kills gaunts within 6" range. Honest." You're sure that can be objectively measured?

Janthkin wrote:

Where movement is concerned, the rules allow you to measure where you want a unit to move, and then change your mind and go in a different direction instead. Note that this is not quite the same as simply being able to measure a 6" circle around the miniature... the process that is (admittedly not well) described in the movement section is to measure where you want to go, not to measure everywhere the miniature could possibly go. A small distinction, and one that is admittedly at least in part an extrapolation... I'm sure that some will disagree that it's RAW, but I'm trying to explain how the rules are seen by some, rather than how the strict RAW works, in an effort to make clear why some people feel this is shady.

SO, measurement is explicitly allowed when moving, in order to determine how far the miniature can go. Obviously, then, if you are considering moving your unit up alongside an enemy unit, you need to measure the distance to where you want to go.

But the 'where you want to go' is the key here. Remember, you're given permission to measure to where you want to move the unit, not to any point on the board where the unit could conceivably move to.

You've constructed a strawman here. The rules permit you to "measure a unit's move in one direction, and then change your mind and decide to move it somewhere else." There is no "where you want to go" requirement.

So why can't you change your mind about where you want your unit to be, and decide to move far enough to be out of assault range?

Here's my problem with the "subjective intent" argument, reduced to example format. Which of the following scenarios should be "right out"?

Baseline assumption: Player A's Raider is 19" from Player B's Battlewagon.
1) During the preceding shooting phase, Player B's Big Shoota (18" range) was about an inch out of range of the Raider. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.

This is a guessed measurement. You said that the Big Shoota was "about" an inch out of range of the Raider. Dash wasn't concerned with "abouts". He measured the exact movement from the battlewagon to his unit and made his movement accordingly.

Janthkin wrote:2) Player A knows exactly how far onto the board his Raider is, as well as the distance to a second Raider/objective/piece of terrain with a known position. He does the mental math required to determine that the Battlewagon is about 19" away. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.

You keep using "abouts" as if there was anything arbitrary in Dash's example. There wasn't. There was no guesswork. It was a blatant measuring of his opponent's movement and charge range.

Janthkin wrote:[3) Player A knows that the Battlewagon deployed at the front of Player B's 12" deployment zone (or that it drove on during Dawn of War), how far it moved last turn, and where his Raider deployed & moved. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.
4) Player A considers moving his Raider up to block the Battlewagon's movement, and measures accordingly around the battlewagon, to determine his options for landing spots. Then he decides to change plans. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.

Fine.

Janthkin wrote:5) Player A is indecisive about his options, and swings his 24" measurement out around his Raider, to get a look at his options. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.

As Insaniak pointed out, this isn't really what you're supposed to be doing. You're supposed to measuring where you're thinking of moving and if you change your mind, re-measure accordingly. You're not supposed to be measuring everything that you can touch and then deciding to move there. But then we're getting into intent again, and you don't want to go there.

Janthkin wrote:6) Player A legitimately considers moving his Raider to every point within it's range, and measures 24" in every direction, changing his mind each time his tape measure moves. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.

This is a hypothetical to counter the above argument. No one does this. It would take all day.

Janthkin wrote:7) Player A is an IG player of the Old School, and estimates ranges to 1/4" accuracy. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.

That is great. That's what almost all players do - gauge something by eyesight and not placing your tape down and measuring it first, then saying, "Oh great, you're out of range."

Janthkin wrote:8) Player A measures towards the Battlewagon, and sees that it is 19" away. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.

Not if his intent was to move forward 19". It wasn't. He was measuring from the Battlewagon to measure opponent's movement and charge range and did so under the guise of movement, which has been pointed out ad nauseum.

Janthkin wrote:If Player A "cheating" in any of 1-7? How can an objective observer tell item #8 from 2-6?

See above comments.

Janthkin wrote:While I can understand the desire to "punish" a player for some sort of malign intent, I cannot condone it here. The rules permit a player to measure his model's movement options. At times, those movement options WILL intersect with an opponent's movement options. Knowledge of the distances between units is gained thereby; there is no way to prevent that. Assuming knowledge of the available movement rates available to the opponent, then the potential threat radius of opposing units becomes obvious; there is no way to prevent that, either.

Insaniak covered this quite well in his post above.

I always thought measuring in 40k was defined as measuring *from* a unit *to* a unit.

So if you measure *from* your unit *to* another unit, you have *not* measured, as far as 40k is concerned, the distance from the enemy to yourself - you can obviously deduce this, but that isnt the point - from those saying there is a rules argument against allowing it.

Edit: its late and im 400 miles from my rulebook, please dont shoot me if I'm wrong!

I just read all 8 pages.. can i get a t-shirt?

It's a shady as hell tactic that is not expressly forbidden by the rules but is clearly not the intent of the rule or its wording. It is at worst cheating and at best incredibly unsportsmanlike. I never like to use the "c" word.

Janthkin wrote:If Player A "cheating" in any of 1-7? How can an objective observer tell item #8 from 2-6?

And this, I think, is the crux of the disagreement going on here over intent.

The point is, it shouldn't be up to an objective observer to force a player to play by the rules. If your intent affects whether or not a given action is legal or breaking the rules, then that's up to you to police your own behaviour.

If you break the rules, the rules are broken... regardless of whether or not your opponent is aware you are doing it.

insaniak wrote:If you break the rules, the rules are broken... regardless of whether or not your opponent is aware you are doing it.

Exactly.

Enforcement, possible or no, is an entirely different conversation.

insaniak wrote:

Janthkin wrote:If Player A "cheating" in any of 1-7? How can an objective observer tell item #8 from 2-6?

And this, I think, is the crux of the disagreement going on here over intent.

The point is, it shouldn't be up to an objective observer to force a player to play by the rules. If your intent affects whether or not a given action is legal or breaking the rules, then that's up to you to police your own behaviour.

If you break the rules, the rules are broken... regardless of whether or not your opponent is aware you are doing it.

We'll have to disagree, then. Your interpretation allows the same action to both follow the rules AND break the rules, depending solely on what's going on in your opponent's head. I have a fundamental disagreement with that, in something as controlled as a game.

puma713 wrote:How can you say that something like a "misremembered weapon skill" or "forgotten special rules" can be measured objectively, especially if the special rule is to the player's detriment? "Oops, sorry. I really did forget that a Tervigon's death kills gaunts within 6" range. Honest." You're sure that can be objectively measured?

Simple - in my example, it doesn't MATTER whether it was "honestly" or "conveniently" forgotten. That it was not applied results in breaking the rules.

Here, under your interpretation, the exact same action can either be completely legal or completely illegal, based solely on the thoughts in your opponent's head.

This is why 40k rules don't hold up to intense scrutiny that the RAW camp dictates.

You can pre-measure your movement and change your mind, but you can't measure anything else. If you start dropping your measuring tape all over the board in a radius from your model trying to decide where to move, and then you also note distances to and from other things, then you are clearly breaking the rules.

The question is, can you satisfy one rule (pre-measuring your movement) without breaking the other (not measuring anything else), and it's hard to say.

It has nothing to do with "intent" or "what the other person is thinking" more so than it has to do with it being impossible to follow both rules and break neither.

puma713 wrote:

Janthkin wrote:8) Player A measures towards the Battlewagon, and sees that it is 19" away. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.

Not if his intent was to move forward 19". It wasn't. He was measuring from the Battlewagon to measure opponent's movement and charge range and did so under the guise of movement, which has been pointed out ad nauseum.

Puma, despite being pointed out ad naseum, you're still missing what was pointed out ad naseum.

I didn't measure 19" out to the battlewagon from my raider. Although legally I could do so just fine, but no longer tank shock. Which I couldn't do with a raider anyway. I measured FROM my raider 24" out, past the battlewagon, several inches to the side precisely. I laid the tape measure down on the table, counted backwards, and noted out loud that the battlewagon was 19" away from me along that 24" line.

Then I moved 12" backwards.

Measuring the battlewagon's movement or charge range would mean putting the tape measure on the battlewagon and measuring out TO the raider or from the battlewagon to other points. That's not what happened.

Dashofpepper wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Janthkin wrote:8) Player A measures towards the Battlewagon, and sees that it is 19" away. Player A moves his Raider 13" backwards.

Not if his intent was to move forward 19". It wasn't. He was measuring from the Battlewagon to measure opponent's movement and charge range and did so under the guise of movement, which has been pointed out ad nauseum.

Puma, despite being pointed out ad naseum, you're still missing what was pointed out ad naseum.

I didn't measure 19" out to the battlewagon from my raider. Although legally I could do so just fine, but no longer tank shock. Which I couldn't do with a raider anyway. I measured FROM my raider 24" out, past the battlewagon, several inches to the side precisely. I laid the tape measure down on the table, counted backwards, and noted out loud that the battlewagon was 19" away from me along that 24" line.

Then I moved 12" backwards.

Measuring the battlewagon's movement or charge range would mean putting the tape measure on the battlewagon and measuring out TO the raider or from the battlewagon to other points. That's not what happened.

I think you are arguing semantics here. Your intent when you laid the tape measure down, was to measure how far away from your Raider my Battlewagon was. No matter how you dress that up, you were in fact measuring my move/charge range to your vehicle.


Clay

Dash you measured your opponent's assault range and moved to avoid being charged. However you rationalize it to yourself, it's what you did.

How is Puma incorrect?

Monster Rain wrote:Dash you measured your opponent's assault range and moved to avoid being charged. However you rationalize it to yourself, it's what you did.

How is Puma incorrect?

Because he didn't. He measured his Raiders movement, extrapolated that he was 19" away, and then legally changed his mind as to where to move.