Dissatisfaction with the current codex has been discussed to death. But what reasonable changes would you like to see in the next one, besides Oh ____ needs its point cost reduced by X? And we all know the Legions aren't coming back.

I have a few that I'd like to see.

0-1 Chaos Daemon Allied Units. I'd like to see the option to take one or two allied units straight from the Chaos Daemons book, summoned the same way as now.

I think the only way Mark of Tzeentch on Sorcerors justifies its points cost is to automatically pass Psychic tests, which makes sense for followers of a god of magic. Speaking of Psychic powers I'd like to see the selection expanded and Chaos Sorcerors become more interesting. Maybe teleporting around with some daemonic gateway shenanigans or mind control like the old Tzeentch Twisting Path but with more effect.

Vehicle God dedication. I'd like to see God-specific vehicle upgrades.

Cult Terminators, Berzerker Terminators, Noise Terminators, Plague Terminators, Rubric Terminators. Make it happen.

For those two let's face it, God specific units are what makes Chaos awesome. Building on that point, it'd be nice to see a small bonus for mono-God armies.

New Special characters, we've had the current cast for a while. Ideally a cast that isn't 75% suck.

Ummm did you read my mind or something cause that is what i would really enjoy seeing since they really dont seem to be doing Legions codices.
It would be really nice to see something other than our crappy LRs. Also like the idea of variant termies since termicides are one of the few effective ways for chaos termies. Making new special characters is probably a given since the recent codex updates have included them.

Man plague termis would be hard as hell to kill straight up. 2+/invuln/fnp t7? I dont think they'd be playing around. I think tzeench should do something like the eldar runes, like 3d6 or a d6 to negate perils roll.

Or maybe something like always succeeds (unless negated) and only roll to see if perils happens. However I think thats how psyker power normally works..

Maybe of tzeench, they give them the ability to never be affected by thenkgs like shadow of the warp or whatnot.some kind of gate power would be nice, or maybe a time loop/paradox power that lets you redo a shooting or combat phase for that one unit. Id like to see the non cult armies get some love. The alpha legions and night lords have been outside of the eye of terror, they should be veterans without peer.

I would love to see a fearless Chaos Lords Retinue unit/Honour guard variant. A lot of the Chaos SC seems under equipped and overpriced, so these issues need to be addressed with additional wargear/rules/stat upgrades etc.

Also the entire fast attack section of the book would need to be fixed. Either make bikers/raptors cheaper or give them an additional rules/stat upgrades to make them more useable (A2 bikers and hit and run raptors were awesome in the previous CSM book). I would also suggest the inclusion of some additional units to "bulk up" the fast attack section such as some fast attack daemons, combat bikers, land speeders etc.

Also something needs to be done about Chaos Dreads. Either remove fire frenzy or fix fire frenzy so it is not stupid. CSM players should not have to take defilers because dreads are broken

I don't play Chaos, but I like the suggestions.

Rules for Iron Warriors and Night Lords armies.


RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! *slams fist on desk*

I don't care that you said they aren't coming back, I want Legion rules. We have to use unofficial Tempus Fugitives rules for our Apoc. games so that we can differentiate play style between legions...and get our Primarchs on the table. Not gonna lie, Alpharius and Omegon beat the crap out of loyalists like nobody's business.

JEB_Stuart wrote:I don't care that you said they aren't coming back, I want Legion rules. We have to use unofficial Tempus Fugitives rules for our Apoc. games so that we can differentiate play style between legions...and get our Primarchs on the table. Not gonna lie, Alpharius and Omegon beat the crap out of loyalists like nobody's business.

I want Codex: Thousand Sons as much as anyone but you have to know with the way Games Workshop is going it probably isn't happening.

Better Possessed.

Agreed, but you asked what we wanted, and I answered. I fully know that it is unrealistic, but put simply: that is my first wish.

If they don't wanna do full blown legion rule, then make it so you can make each Lord into a Legion Lord that gives that Legion's rule to the army. Probably the best we can hope for...and make Chaos Lords a viable choice in an army.

I'd love to see more Chaos weirdness. Things like the Blight Drone imperial armour has. Things to make them less like angry emo marines with some really crappy versions of the Space Marine toys...too much of there gear is stuff they took with them or looted, and not enough is driven by a maddened Lord of Change strapped to the front.

Failing that, some Chaos only versions of the vehicles (beyond Daemonic Possesion) would be cool. Assault capable Rhinos for Berserker squads and such.

Oh, and Dreadclaws.

Id like drop pods, razor backs, and land speeders and I would be happy to be honest.
Be cool to have some god specific lesser/greater deamons.
I do not want what I saw in the space marine codex, where its ,for example, 90 pts for a 5 man tatc squad and then 16pts more per man after that. Id have to redo a very long excell spread sheet.

epil wrote:Id like drop pods, razor backs, and land speeders... I do not want what I saw in the space marine codex...

Oh irony, you bitch.

Just my opinion, but the last thing we need is more stuff copy pasted from the Space Marines.

Viable rules for all CSM Legions.

More choice - less random for possessed.
Possession for dreadnoughts - reduce BS but eliminate Crazed.
Maybe a 2 wound champion character, like loyalist chaplains.
Full rules for Dark Apostles!

I'd like my old Iron Warriors rules back, so I can field 9 Oblits, a Basilisk, and 3 Defilers.

I kid, I kid.

But, more seriously, I'd like to see cult armies with specific daemon choices come back. There's no reason Death Guard armies shouldn't take Plague Bearers. Call it one unit of specific daemons per appropriate cult squad, maybe.

Another thing that would be good in conjunction with the previous suggestion: more exploration of the relationship of the non-aligned Legions with minor Chaos gods and the upper crust of greater daemons. I think that generic lesser daemon packs and greater daemons are a good idea that could fit a lot more into the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, etc. with some more fluff. (As an aside, I saw someone demonstrate mixing a Necron box with a Bloodletter box, and it looked completely awesome for IW daemons.)

Chaos dreads need to lose the insanity rule, or at least make it a little more friendly to movement-oriented armies, even if it comes at a points increase.

And, finally, I'd like to see a fast attack vehicle choice of some sort. I'm not sure what it would be; definitely not a land speeder, but perhaps some sort of raiding/scout buggy. Maybe it could have scout, fast, and some kind of outflanking bonus? I'm thinking a heavy weapon plus twin-linked special weapon in terms of armament (eg, plasma cannon + TL-melta).

Berserker, Noise, Plague and Rubric Terminators.
God-dedicated vehicles (specially Dreadnoughts!)
Some Iron Warriors character!

Bring back 3.5 and all will be good. .

I want my Thousand Sons to make those pansy Eldar Farseers look like IG Sanctioned Psykers.

I'd like to see fluff-based rewards around the gods. For example I have a Slaanesh 750pt force that is all in squads of 6... because I like to adhere to the story. It's made me suffer in some games because it's non-optimal, massively, so it'd be nice to be rewarded in some way.

Sanctjud wrote:Bring back 3.5 and all will be good. .

Eff that, two wound Thousand Sons were cool and all but at 25 points they were worse than they are now.

Not to mention Ahriman...

Is there a new codex announced or something or is this a what if type of thread?

@Nitros14:

Who said I wanted TS to get a boost?
Eff the Dust Buckets is more like it.

I'd like to see more and cheaper wargear options for lords, a wider range of psychic power for sorcs and DPs, more demon-engines like the defiler, some sort of psychic defense, more interesting fast attack, markable lesser/greater demons, less random possessed and dreads, chosen with 2A each (they're meant to be more veteran than SM vets for feth sake). A drop in the cost of 1Ksons.

That would sort of all of the major game play problems with the book.

...or the 3.5 dex back (outflanking everything thanks to army wide infiltrate, elite oblits, DPs strong enough to kill entire armies by themselves...hmmm I remember why they toned down this codex now...).

Unique chaos vehicle variants would definitely be nice. Things like puss cannons, noise weaponry...etc.

Since the president has been set now, a Tzeentch Dreadnought capable of using psychic powers would be great.

Also, while I think it's unlikely, I'd like to see them include a cultist unit. Give them (and the daemons) the ability to take an icon so they're not completely boring and generic.

Sanctjud wrote:@Nitros14:

Who said I wanted TS to get a boost?
Eff the Dust Buckets is more like it.

You and your bloated tubs of lard will suffer for this outrage.

Pfft, don't be angry at me.
It's GW that doesn't love you.

_________________

Bring back DoomRider.
Bring back DoomFists.

Remember the lesser psychic power Siren? Yea, bring that back and lets see the Siren/Lash combo LAWL!

What I'd want? No Daemons. If they want daemons, they can use Allies rules.

Codex: Chaos Daemons it he only reason I might be into a chaos army, as marines who are angry at their dad have even less pull than normal marines...

Chaos Dreds need a way to deep strike.

CSM Should be able to either Deep Strike Via Dreadclaws (just give them the same/similar rules for Drop pods) or enter from the warp. (Something like a webway portal)

Daemons should function EXACTALLY like Inquix allies. There is no reason why they don't currently. ("But the daemons are too important to be with petty CSM" how can you not say the same about Daemonhunters?)

Things that need Legion Specifics

Dreds, Lords, Sorcerers(non in Khorne), Havocks, Possesed, Chosen (Actually, Chosen should just be completely redone to be more like Honor Guard, IMO) Bikers.

They should get a new FA choice that would also have the choice to be legion specific (and put the unit on the various mounts of chaos)

Remove the SLDs and SGDs (from being purchasable as a base unit in CSM). Spawn can be purchased with Sorcerer/DPs as a seperate unit not taking force org but limited to X per Y (Y being the number of Sorcerers/DPs taken)

Give LRs back our Power of the machine spirit (It was called something else before, like "Enraged engine" IIRC)

MINOR legion specific LR varients (like, a Khorn/Slaanesh, not one for each)

Up the Xport capacity of LRs


Changes to the marks (to make them less boring, yet still 5th edition 'streamlined')

MoT should increase the invul save by +2 instead of +1 (making it the equive to storm shields on termis, for more points obviously). Sorcerers/DPs with MoT may take/use an additional psychic power each turn and never roll more then 2d6 for psychic tests.

MoK should be +1 Attack Melee weapons have "Master Crafted" special rule. Lords/DPs with MoK have the "Preferred Enemy" special rule

MoN should be +1 Toughness (modified) Melee attacks have the "Poisoned Weapons" special rule (in addition to their other rules). Lords/Sorcerers with MoN also have FNP.

MoS Should be +1 Initiative and the USR "Fleet". Lords/Sorcerers/DPs with the MoS also have a 12" assault range and gain an additional +1 Initiative.

Bring back doomrider, change up the Psychic spell list some and adjust the Point costs/Stat lines/ wargear to be more appropriate for 5th edition (this would be minor)

but thats just my take on it...

Something cool and guaranteed not to be stolen by the loyalists.. like traits.. that was cool, till everyone had it.

Give us some sort of cheap throw-away cultist unit, rework the spells and marks (especially liking the way Daemon Archon Ren has them), make possessed and dreads less random, legion specific rules, and make spawns useful.

Maybe make the Spawns have a rule called Mass of Flesh, where they have to be a unit with a sorceror, forces them to roll 1d6 for movement, but all wounds are allocated to the Spawn before the sorcerers.

As for spells, it is in my (very humble) opinion that most, if not all spells should be of support nature. Warptime should stay, and they should give us something along the lines of teleporting a unit of ours 12 inches if the power passes. Doombolt should stay, it's iconic.

What do I want for the next Chaos codex?

Sorry for blatant advertising, but this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29523383/Chaos-Codex-Eternal-Slaves-of-Chaos-Simplified

I want actual chaos attributes and mutations. Stuff that made Chaos, y'know, CHAOS. Not this lame gak that is currently the codex.

How about more options? The current 'chaos' codex has none of that. Yes it was hit in the nuts with a sledgehammer by Jervisification but come on! The new Blud Angles codex has a ton more gak than we do. I'm sorry but that's just pathetic.

Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

Vladsimpaler wrote:What do I want for the next Chaos codex?

Sorry for blatant advertising, but this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29523383/Chaos-Codex-Eternal-Slaves-of-Chaos-Simplified

I want actual chaos attributes and mutations. Stuff that made Chaos, y'know, CHAOS. Not this lame gak that is currently the codex.

How about more options? The current 'chaos' codex has none of that. Yes it was hit in the nuts with a sledgehammer by Jervisification but come on! The new Blud Angles codex has a ton more gak than we do. I'm sorry but that's just pathetic.

Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

Yeah, I just feel I have to comment on this:

WE ARE NOT ORKS! We should not have to roll for animosity, our units should not try to kill eachother, though I will agree that a IC with the MoK should not be able to join a unit with MoS.

Slarg232 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:What do I want for the next Chaos codex?

Sorry for blatant advertising, but this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29523383/Chaos-Codex-Eternal-Slaves-of-Chaos-Simplified

I want actual chaos attributes and mutations. Stuff that made Chaos, y'know, CHAOS. Not this lame gak that is currently the codex.

How about more options? The current 'chaos' codex has none of that. Yes it was hit in the nuts with a sledgehammer by Jervisification but come on! The new Blud Angles codex has a ton more gak than we do. I'm sorry but that's just pathetic.

Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

Yeah, I just feel I have to comment on this:

WE ARE NOT ORKS! We should not have to roll for animosity, our units should not try to kill eachother, though I will agree that a IC with the MoK should not be able to join a unit with MoS.

Really? You don't think that if a Champion of Khorne sees a Champion of Slaanesh, they're not going to try and duke it out? Their respective gods HATE eachother. Want to destroy them. So on, and so forth.

Slarg232 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

, though I will agree that a IC with the MoK should not be able to join a unit with MoS.

What you guys are forgetting is that we are not Chaos Daemons, but Chaos Space Marines,

Chaos Daemons have Daemonic Rivalry, which basically does just what you are proposing (with the IC thing).

Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Chaos Space Marines do not feel this, if they did, the Horus Heresy, and the Black Legion/Word Bearers/Chaos Undivided, would have never existed.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Sorry, but what the feth is the Great Game? Is this new background?

I would like to see the return of an idea or two from the 3rd ed Chaos codex - yes, 3rd ed, not 3.5!

- Taking a mark on a lord would dictate which marked troops you could take. For instance, a lord with Mark of Nurgle would let you take Plague Marines as troops, while a lord with any other mark would take them as elites.

- Cult troops would be LD10, but taking them in their sacred numbers would make them fearless.

- Dreadclaw drop pods, obviously.

- Lash of Submission is gone without a trace.

- You could still take lesser and greater daemons, but could give them marks like anything else. I like the idea of letting the actual Chaos Daemons codex giving them wacky rules, but for the sake of the Chaos Marines codex, it would be good to give them a little more flavor.

- Marks aren't taken as icons. In other words, just because a guy carrying the rotting stick gets killed, the squad doesn't forget they're dedicated to Nurgle.

- Simple rules for cultists. Just make them like conscripts in the IG codex but with close combat weapons and laspistols. Let them also take a mark, and be led by an aspiring champion as per a regular squad of Chaos Marines.

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents on the matter.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Sorry, but what the feth is the Great Game? Is this new background?

It's ye olde fluff. The Great Game of all four Chaos Gods playing against eachother vying for total domination for all eternity.

Khorne HATES Slaanesh, Tzeentch HATES Nurgle and vice versa.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:What do I want for the next Chaos codex?

Sorry for blatant advertising, but this: http://www.scribd.com/doc/29523383/Chaos-Codex-Eternal-Slaves-of-Chaos-Simplified

I want actual chaos attributes and mutations. Stuff that made Chaos, y'know, CHAOS. Not this lame gak that is currently the codex.

How about more options? The current 'chaos' codex has none of that. Yes it was hit in the nuts with a sledgehammer by Jervisification but come on! The new Blud Angles codex has a ton more gak than we do. I'm sorry but that's just pathetic.

Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

Yeah, I just feel I have to comment on this:

WE ARE NOT ORKS! We should not have to roll for animosity, our units should not try to kill eachother, though I will agree that a IC with the MoK should not be able to join a unit with MoS.

Really? You don't think that if a Champion of Khorne sees a Champion of Slaanesh, they're not going to try and duke it out? Their respective gods HATE eachother. Want to destroy them. So on, and so forth.

Oh they would, but I would hope that the rules would reflect that they are able to put their differences aside for the few seconds it takes to beat the gak out of whatever they are fighting in the first place first.

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Oh yeah, and bring back Animosity.

, though I will agree that a IC with the MoK should not be able to join a unit with MoS.

What you guys are forgetting is that we are not Chaos Daemons, but Chaos Space Marines,

Chaos Daemons have Daemonic Rivalry, which basically does just what you are proposing (with the IC thing).

Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Chaos Space Marines do not feel this, if they did, the Horus Heresy, and the Black Legion/Word Bearers/Chaos Undivided, would have never existed.

I was thinking more of the fact that it was Khorne and Slaanesh, who are absolute rivals, and then Nurgle and Tzeentch. You should still be able to have a Khorne IC with a unit of plague marines, but not that Khorne guy with a unit of Noise Marines. Though I wouldn't mind no restrictions.

Nitros14 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Sorry, but what the feth is the Great Game? Is this new background?

It's ye olde fluff. The Great Game of all four Chaos Gods playing against eachother vying for total domination for all eternity.

Khorne HATES Slaanesh, Tzeentch HATES Nurgle and vice versa.

No, I know about Khorne hating Slaanesh and Tzeentch hating Nurgle and vice versa. That's been there since the beginning.

But I've never heard of the 'Great Game'. It sounds stupid so it must be new background.

@ Slarg232- Them putting aside their differences is them passing their LD test and going on as normal. And with such high LD, they will be fine a good amount of the time.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:Is there a new codex announced or something or is this a what if type of thread?

It's a what-if thread. But, given Chaos' popularity, they're almost certain to see a codex eventually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:Is there a new codex announced or something or is this a what if type of thread?

It's a what-if thread. But, given Chaos' popularity, they're almost certain to see a codex eventually.

Animosity would be terrible..

Look at chaos dreads.. how many people use them..

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Sorry, but what the feth is the Great Game? Is this new background?

It's ye olde fluff. The Great Game of all four Chaos Gods playing against eachother vying for total domination for all eternity.

Khorne HATES Slaanesh, Tzeentch HATES Nurgle and vice versa.

No, I know about Khorne hating Slaanesh and Tzeentch hating Nurgle and vice versa. That's been there since the beginning.

But I've never heard of the 'Great Game'. It sounds stupid so it must be new background.

@ Slarg232- Them putting aside their differences is them passing their LD test and going on as normal. And with such high LD, they will be fine a good amount of the time.

The Great Game is just them trying to outmanouver (sorry) eachother, kinda like chess. Khorne is the strongest, Tzeentch plays dirty, Nurgle fluctuates, and Slaanesh is the weakest but is slowly becoming the most powerful (because he is the God of Excess, and the other gods all embody different forms of excess). To my knowledge, Khorne is the only one to ever have beaten all three of the others at the same time.

But still, We are not Orks, and as such our units should remain in our total undivided control through out the match. They could buff everything else about us, but if they make it where we start attacking our own guys, that is such a nerf (and kick in the teeth) it isn't funny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shaman wrote:Animosity would be terrible..

Look at chaos dreads.. how many people use them..

Exactly. I never take dreads, too much of a risk to kill my own units.

Night lords... thats all I want

I think the chaosiness is definitely missing from the current codex, and since it was my purchase of the original 2nd ed codex (still got it somewhere, GOD I love that book) that got me into 40K, I think there are definite elements that could be improved.

Now of course, you need a redressing of points values etc thanks to the silly stuff loyalist marines get now. And I really like the suggestion of allies from the Daemon army instead of the generic daemonic forces available in the codex.

It is very important to keep a solid difference between normal marines and chaos marines, and I think one good way to do that would be to bring out more of daily life in the eye of terror. My image of CSM has always been that they are just more hardcore, more badass than normal marines. They're 10 millenia veterans, and they should be appropriately scary as a result.

Chosen should have 2 attacks, as someone else said, but perhaps you should be able to buy Veteran squads as well. The chosen are not just vets, but aspiring champions. Vets should be available as an elites choice, or maybe as troops if your lord has the Undivided mark (similar to how marked lords used to give you Cult units as troops, like someone else noticed). Vet squads should be similar to back in 2nd ed, with up to 2 heavy or special weapons, infiltrate, and reduced numbers (3-5). Maybe even better stats? I loved my veterans back in the day

Also, the fact that the CSM's aren't extinct yet despite 10K years of fighting means they have to be getting new recruits. Perhaps a CSM equivalent of blood claws, in huge units, maybe even with only carapace armour until they've proved themselves? That would make a lot of sense.

The whole streamlined 5th ed malarky is good, perhaps another way to reflect the uberskills of CSM's would just be to allow every CSM squad to purchase certain USR's? Only 1 per squad, and only certain ones allowed for certain units, but still that'd allow a lot of fun and flexibility that is currently lacking.

Mutation-wise, I think possessed marines pretty much cover it. I've never played with them, so I don't know how rubbish they are under the current system, but I think they nicely cover a multitude of sins, so mutant marines can easily be bundled in under their rules.

Definitely mobility and durability is something currently lacking in the CSM army.

And cult terminators rocked, they should totally come back. I still get a little shiver when I see that Mark Gibbons KBT illustration in 2nd ed Codex Chaos

So have the veterans be tough and the newbies be probably less than normal marines. Like Scouts in power armor.

Slarg232 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:
Chaos Daemons are manifestations of their patron gods, and as such, feel the bitter rivalry of the Great Games.

Sorry, but what the feth is the Great Game? Is this new background?

It's ye olde fluff. The Great Game of all four Chaos Gods playing against eachother vying for total domination for all eternity.

Khorne HATES Slaanesh, Tzeentch HATES Nurgle and vice versa.

No, I know about Khorne hating Slaanesh and Tzeentch hating Nurgle and vice versa. That's been there since the beginning.

But I've never heard of the 'Great Game'. It sounds stupid so it must be new background.

The Great Game is just them trying to outmanouver (sorry) eachother, kinda like chess. Khorne is the strongest, Tzeentch plays dirty, Nurgle fluctuates, and Slaanesh is the weakest but is slowly becoming the most powerful (because he is the God of Excess, and the other gods all embody different forms of excess). To my knowledge, Khorne is the only one to ever have beaten all three of the others at the same time.

If you don't know what the Great Game is, I would consider reading Codex: Chaos Daemons, Liber Chaotica, and a TON of other Chaos fluff...

To put it in a definition, Lexicanum states

The Great Game is the constant struggle for dominance between the Chaos Gods. The Warp is not only home to the Gods, but it is also their battlefield. No god can ever win the Great Game, for if all other Warp Powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist. So it is an Eternal Conflict. The Full attention of the God is concentrated on the Great Game, a fraction of their attention will very rarely be fixed on the mortal realm but only for an instant as the Great game is more important. The Chaos Gods will also unite rarely roughly every few thousand years, if there is need to do so (to thwart a threat or to take advantage of an occurrence). The rise of the Emperor was such a time, the Warp Gods engineered the wars of the Horus Heresy to bring about his downfall, distracting them for an instant from the Great game. The Great Conflict which is played out amongst the gods is also mirrored by their followers and worshippers in the material realm. This is what the Daemon-Primarchs and other Great Chaos Champions are occupied with, fighting for the supremacy of their god, with untold power at their fingertips.

there are other books on Chaos besides Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3rd edition 2nd Print) IIRC the Great Game is mentioned in the Realm of Chaos (1988, 1990) sourcebooks, so I don't think that would be considered New...

The reason you don't hear about it much in CSM books is because CSM DON'T PLAY A (significant) PART IN THE GREAT GAME (other then Daemon-Primarchs). The rivalry portion (aka Khorne hates slaanesh etc) was only part of the 2nd Print of the 3rd Edition dex to justify all those Daemons you could take with you, since the daemons walked out, so did any reason to mention the rivalry... A Black Crusade Tzeentch Sorcerer and a Black Crusade Nurgle Lord share as much animosity as a Space Wolf Rune Priest and a Salamander Devestator, aka NONE.

Melissia wrote:So have the veterans be tough and the newbies be probably less than normal marines. Like Scouts in power armor.

I'd be down with this, honestly. Drop the SM statline completely, and have the troops split between scouts/blood claws and veterans, who I guess would have improved initiative/ws/bs or something to show how balls to the wall badass they are.

I don't want a new CSM codex, per se. I want three books covering Chaos. If I'm in charge of the studio...

1) Codex Chaos: Smaller numbers of *elite* badboy CSMs (which may be marked, but not full-on cult) leading Traitor IG and vehicles and various gribblies. Generic daemons only (although maybe with marks allowed). Mix-and-matchy, patchwork old school chaos.

2) Codex Ruinous Powers: Covering armies devoted to one of the big 4. Cult marines, cultists, power-specific wargear and equipment, aligned daemons (although maybe only the basic infantry for each power -- Bletters, Pbearers, etc.). Aligned armies like in CSM v3.5, but with some nods to more flexibility.

3) Codex Daemonworlds: Full daemonic armies, but with added options for mutants (daemonworlds are supposed to be teeming with them) and more daemonic engines. An appendix with optional rules for fighting on daemonworlds tops it off.

Pure renegades, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers are well-served by #1. Iron Warriors probably aren't a bad fit in #1 either since they'd have some access to selected IG siege vehicles, etc. WE, DG, EC and TS as well as other devoted homebrews are covered in #2. Daemons get covered in #3, but gain more unit and playstyle options.

Night Lords aren't an obvious fit, although they might work in #1 depending on the details there. Black Legion likely presents the biggest problem. Letting them mix-and-match within #2 would be the most obvious solution, but opening that door probably just creates a zillion balance issues. Bit of a stumbling block, but there's probably a decent answer.

This would break some eggs, but I think it'd be a whole lot more interesting.

At least it would give them SOMETHING other than being simply "angry at my dad" marines.

They'd still be that mind you, but it'd be nice if they had MORE different.


edit: Also, I will never, EVER support Marines getting YET ANOTHER codex. I don't even support loyalist Marines getting six codices, nevermind CSMs...

To be fair, only one of those is really a CSM codex. CC would treat them effectively like Stormtroopers in C:WH.

gorgon wrote:I don't want a new CSM codex, per se. I want three books covering Chaos. If I'm in charge of the studio...

1) Codex Chaos: Smaller numbers of *elite* badboy CSMs (which may be marked, but not full-on cult) leading Traitor IG and vehicles and various gribblies. Generic daemons only (although maybe with marks allowed). Mix-and-matchy, patchwork old school chaos.

2) Codex Ruinous Powers: Covering armies devoted to one of the big 4. Cult marines, cultists, power-specific wargear and equipment, aligned daemons (although maybe only the basic infantry for each power -- Bletters, Pbearers, etc.). Aligned armies like in CSM v3.5, but with some nods to more flexibility.

3) Codex Daemonworlds: Full daemonic armies, but with added options for mutants (daemonworlds are supposed to be teeming with them) and more daemonic engines. An appendix with optional rules for fighting on daemonworlds tops it off.

Pure renegades, Alpha Legion and Word Bearers are well-served by #1. Iron Warriors probably aren't a bad fit in #1 either since they'd have some access to selected IG siege vehicles, etc. WE, DG, EC and TS as well as other devoted homebrews are covered in #2. Daemons get covered in #3, but gain more unit and playstyle options.

Night Lords aren't an obvious fit, although they might work in #1 depending on the details there. Black Legion likely presents the biggest problem. Letting them mix-and-match within #2 would be the most obvious solution, but opening that door probably just creates a zillion balance issues. Bit of a stumbling block, but there's probably a decent answer.

This would break some eggs, but I think it'd be a whole lot more interesting.

I don't think that would work, for the fact that it does indeed break a few eggs. They need to keep all the Marines together, so that players who have 500 some marines aren't forced to buy 3 codices or are forced to not use half of their models.

As to the three codices, I think they will go C:CSM, Caemons, and C:Lost and the Damned. Hopefully we get to see an evil version of the Sisters, too.

If they are cutting Daemons from the CSM, that (essentially) opens up one troop choice and one HQ choice that they could add in. Assuming they didn't want to get all wiled and wooly with completely revamping the armies units.

My hopes:
Cultists. Little ground pounders that infiltrate and are more assault oriented. Maybe make them like DoW2's Cultists, where they can blow themselves up in combat. Might get some flak for that, what with all the terrorists running around today, but it would be cool

and a Dark Mechanist: Basically just a techpriest that didn't become and obliterator (Or even, an obliterator that can repair things). I always thought that it was stupid that the Imperium armies are the only ones that can repair things during the game.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Melissia wrote:So have the veterans be tough and the newbies be probably less than normal marines. Like Scouts in power armor.

I'd be down with this, honestly. Drop the SM statline completely, and have the troops split between scouts/blood claws and veterans, who I guess would have improved initiative/ws/bs or something to show how balls to the wall badass they are.

I like the idea of CSM vets with WS/BS/I 5. But that's because I started out in 2nd ed or maybe just infiltrate, stealth and counter attack? that would make em pretty handy.

on the great game topic, it dates back to the realm of chaos books back in the eighties, and was also detailed in the aforementioned codex chaos. Daemon World armies originally existed only to fight the troops of the other gods, for their amusement. The gods would gamble planets on particular champions etc.

@ slarg:
maybe instead of a Dark Mechanist, wretches like in DoW?

Captain Roderick wrote:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

Melissia wrote:So have the veterans be tough and the newbies be probably less than normal marines. Like Scouts in power armor.

I'd be down with this, honestly. Drop the SM statline completely, and have the troops split between scouts/blood claws and veterans, who I guess would have improved initiative/ws/bs or something to show how balls to the wall badass they are.

I like the idea of CSM vets with WS/BS/I 5. But that's because I started out in 2nd ed or maybe just infiltrate, stealth and counter attack? that would make em pretty handy.

on the great game topic, it dates back to the realm of chaos books back in the eighties, and was also detailed in the aforementioned codex chaos. Daemon World armies originally existed only to fight the troops of the other gods, for their amusement. The gods would gamble planets on particular champions etc.

@ slarg:
maybe instead of a Dark Mechanist, wretches like in DoW?

The Wretch would be an awesome model, yeah.

As for the vets, does Stealth give the +1 Cover save? Don't have my rulebook handy.

I forgot to mention I think the focus in the HQ department should be chaos lords.. They should be powerful and expensive. They should get something for selling their souls to Evil gods.. And this stuff should be comparable if not better then the loyalist assualty marine chapters(SW, BA, BT) equivalent.

Chaos Lords should be the deadliest man-sized model in the game tbqh.

IE, "I want everything they have, but better!"

I don't think that'll go over well.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:Chaos Lords should be the deadliest man-sized model in the game tbqh.

I wont say no to that notion.

Melissia wrote:IE, "I want everything they have, but better!"

I don't think that'll go over well.

Depends.

If we let them have the Dark Angels codex's statlines, there's no real problem...

I would. I'd say Grey Knights Grandmasters should be better, and should be the deadliest man-sized model


Although technically speaking no Marine is man-sized.

Silly, nobody actually plays GKs.

Tzeentchling9 wrote:I want my Thousand Sons to make those pansy Eldar Farseers look like IG Sanctioned Psykers.

Yeah pretty much. We're tapping directly into the font of Magic and Psychic Might at its source and we have 10,000+ years of experience.

And the Mark of Tzeentch already costs triple the points of Slaanesh and does less...

You do realize some of the Eldar Seers have far more practical experience and not to mention talent than that measly 10,000 years(most of which has been spent cowering in the Warp or as something that has to worry when the Dustbuster comes around) right?

Yeah but when Njal is the best psyker.. there is a problem.

Yeah, Codex Creep.

Not really controllable, backgroundwise.

Also, people really underestimate sanctioned psykers... but that's an issue for another thread.

I repeat what I said before: I want Psychic powers to take a more support form. Doombolt should remain, it's Iconic, as should Warptime. The Eldar Codex is what I think all psychic powers should be like. Support, not another weapon. And if they are "another weapon" They should Annihalate things. Take Doombolt for example. 18" S4 AP3 Assault 3. Thats all well and good, but they should make it a Barrage weapon, so it just completly annihilates whatever it hits. Make sorcerers something dangerous, that the enemy almost NEEDS to kill fast. Do this with every psyker. Psykers in general (IMHO) need to be buffed.

Leave Warptime as it is. Maybe buff Gift of Chaos somehow, but thats only a Maybe.

Wind of Chaos: The Eldar have a move that allows their units to reroll failed armor saves, so change WoC to the opposite; Enemies have to reroll passed armor saves.

Teleport: Range 12" The sorcerer can open up a warp portal near a unit and on another point on the battlefield. The affected unit may move up to 18 inches, ignoring all modifiers. They may not teleport into close combat, nor can they end their teleportation inside of a unit or Impassible Terrain. They must end this move within 12 inches of the Sorcerer.

Teleport would be game changing, as would Wind of Chaos.

There is so much that GW could do with Psykers that they don't seem to want to, it makes me a sad panda.

Slarg232 wrote:Psykers in general (IMHO) need to be buffed.

On THIS, I agree. Sanctioned Psykers in Dark Heresy are far more powerful than they ever were in tabletop..

Melissia wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:Psykers in general (IMHO) need to be buffed.

On THIS, I agree. Sanctioned Psykers in Dark Heresy are far more powerful than they ever were in tabletop..

.... your just agreeing because your the witch hunters.


I'm on to you. Don't think I'm not, cuz I am.

Yeah the whole taking the risk of Perils of the Warp for abilities that aren't even better than your average gun thing bothered me.

"You can pay 25 points for a Multi-Melta that doesn't roll 2D6 to pen and can blow up in your face yeah!"

Nitros14 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:@Nitros14:

Who said I wanted TS to get a boost?
Eff the Dust Buckets is more like it.

You and your bloated tubs of lard will suffer for this outrage.

Since when was Sanctjud friends with Jervis Johnson?

Anyway on topic: In terms of support Psychic powers for chaos, I miss the Mass mutation power from the previous book. That spell was fun. Basically it was role a d6, and a roll of 2-6 provided a single turn buff (such as +1 str) to the unit the spell was targeting.

Nitros14 wrote:Yeah the whole taking the risk of Perils of the Warp for abilities that aren't even better than your average gun thing bothered me.

"You can pay 25 points for a Multi-Melta that doesn't roll 2D6 to pen and can blow up in your face yeah!"

I know. Warptime is really the only power I use in the entire codex, though I have been looking at Lash and Gift of Chaos, but still, there needs to be something more than just more weapons.

Gift is useful verse blood angels cause you single out the priest which makes them lose FNP and FC.

But yes psychic powers need to make more powerful. I want to field a null rod and not feel like its a waste of points.

candy.man wrote:

Nitros14 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:@Nitros14:

Who said I wanted TS to get a boost?
Eff the Dust Buckets is more like it.

You and your bloated tubs of lard will suffer for this outrage.

Since when was Sanctjud friends with Jervis Johnson?

Anyway on topic: In terms of support Psychic powers for chaos, I miss the Mass mutation power from the previous book. That spell was fun. Basically it was role a d6, and a roll of 2-6 provided a single turn buff (such as +1 str) to the unit the spell was targeting.

Maybe, but still, I think that such a spell would be better for Space Marines instead of CSM. Space Marines should Buff, CSM should Debuff, IMHO. Just would help reinforce more evil. Same with Dark Eldar and Eldar, Light should buff, Dark should debuff.

I have no idea what Nids would do, nor Orks, to tell the truth.

Dark Eldar don't use Psykers, they see Psykers as play things.

Mass Mutation wasn't complete fun and games though. On a roll of 1, the unit incurred wounds. If you rolled a higher number as well (like 4, 5, 6), the unit wound get more mutation type stuff like rending, poisoned attacks and fleet IIRC.

Necrosis wrote:Dark Eldar don't use Psykers, they see Psykers as play things.

Fair enough then. Never used the DE, my mistake.

candy.man wrote:Mass Mutation wasn't complete fun and games though. On a roll of 1, the unit incurred wounds. If you rolled a higher number as well (like 4, 5, 6), the unit wound get more mutation type stuff like rending, poisoned attacks and fleet IIRC.

Oh I know. I am not saying they shouldn't add a spell like this back, but the main focus of the CSM (IMHO) should be killing/debuffing, and with Teleport, repositioning.

In all honesty, just make a little addon booklet for legions. So that you could field a world eater or whatever army.

And leave the normal dex for new players or Black Legion/Renegade chapters.

@Slarg232
I agree.

I think the important factor should be synergy. At the moment, all the spells chaos have are shooty yet offer little synergy or benefit to the army. Paying 10 points for Doombolt is not as beneficial as paying 10 points for another meltagun. The spells should help the HQ "lead by example" by providing beneficial buffs/debuffs or enemy wounds.

Defiler upped to 5 in a squad and only cost 20 pts.

15 Defilers at 300 pts woooooooooooot

I think anything more legion specific would be great. The chaos gods are cool and all. and it's easy to see where those units are, and shine greatly.

But more legion specific things, something that maybe mirrors the Codex: Space Marines a little would be great. Multiple Chaos Lord Uniques. I think it would be great to see cultists in there somewhere.. Considering they exist and fight in nearly every space marine/csm novel.

It'd be neat to see awesome new characters with retinues of some sort (perhaps heretics) working in an awesome demonic parody of the IG with Commisars


On that note, is there ever going to be a "renegade guard codex" ? I mean wheres the love for the Daemon Worshippers without power armor?

Daemons back, not necessarily the ones from Caemons but at the very least marked!

Ditto Greater Daemons

Ditto fast attack daemons, at the very least furies. The current fast attack section for chaos is pathetic.

More daemon engines, bring in some forgeworld stuff like the blight drone

cult termies back

god specific vehicle upgrades (sonic weapons, plague launchers, magic towers, threshing blades)

more god specific wargear

more than one generic daemon weapon

Vets have the ability to buy vet skills (i.e. USRs)

Possessed buy their powers or at the very least every random power needs to be equally useful (or at the very, very least roll before deployment)

Marks not icons, icons are for summoning/deepstriking marks are what give the powers

Cults get a free champion if fielded in their sacred number

A special character for each legion or/ an ability to buy a power for your lord that designates which legion he leads, opening up the force org in some way or giving special powers (i.e. a night lords character who gives every chaos marine the option to buy infiltrate)

Chaos cultists as a 0-1 choice with stuff like melta bombs/ demo charges to represent a sabotage theme

The return of purchasable daemon gifts/mutations for lords - pointed appropriately high but to give the option of letting your lord/prince become really nasty

More and more varied psychic powers but lash toned down considerably i.e. make it pavane.

fix the mark of tzeentch, auto-cast powers and/or multi-cast powers (maybe the first one is auto cast, the 2nd is cast, the 3rd is cast on 3 dice or some variant of that)

fix t-sons so they're good at something

pts increase for plague marines

I don't really want to see Legion rules returning. They're too gimmicky and limiting. I liked the marks that the 3.5ed codex had, as they allowed you to build both fluffy Legion armies and custom CSM warbands, unlike the Legion army rules.

So I would like to see chaos marks back for every unit, with unique options opened up if you take them. Legion Terminators or Chosen missing marks that the regular cultist troopers possess is a complete travesty. Why are the fething CHOSEN lacking powers that the regular cultists have!?

I think the theme of the CSM is chaotic power. Becoming a chaos devotee should make them more powerful than a loyalist (otherwise what exactly were they tempted to chaos for?), but at the cost of chaotic randomness. Daemon weapons or Bile's enhanced warriors in the current codex are a good example of that. Chaos Dreadnoughts are not (they've got the randomness, but not the power it should bring!).

Fixed daemonic steeds ftw

And you would do this... how?

Just saying "fix X unit" is useless... at least give some idea on how you'd do it.

Rules for Legions and some Daemon allies allowance.

Slarg232 wrote:I don't think that would work, for the fact that it does indeed break a few eggs. They need to keep all the Marines together, so that players who have 500 some marines aren't forced to buy 3 codices or are forced to not use half of their models.

Thing is, I realistically don't see the Legions getting more than a fluff treatment in a single unified CSM book. And IMO the Legions and missing LatD elements are things that could give Chaos a pretty quick injection of cool.

But this is a wish thread, so I guess realism is kinda irrelevant.

1) Cultists.
Everything from the Black Library books to the Dawn of War PC games emphasize that Chaos uses cheap disposable troops (both with and against their will). Note that this is different from Traitor IG. It also makes the Lost and the Damned viable again.

2) Chaos Dreadnoughts that are worth taking.
I would like something that I don't have to field far away from the rest of my army. Allowing them to deep-strike would be nice. A new updated model would also be nice (though Forgeworld is becoming more attractive).

3) Um...Legion specific rules (I know, I know).
Without these, Chaos Space Marines simply lose a lot of their flavor. Also, while I don't care for Obliterator spam, my Iron Warriors would like their Basilisk back.

4) A Demon Prince model that's less demonic and more Space Marine-ish.
I don't field Demons or Defilers, and I'd like to think that some Chaos Space Marine champions can be elevated to immortality without becoming all mutated and such.

More choices, their codex is so incredibly boring and bland, the only vaguely interesting part about it is the troops choice. Make the Marks have more of an effect, Icons are stupid. Make raptors more interesting than just CSM with Jump packs. Make possessed not suck. Give Chosen artificer armor or something.

I also hate that CSM has been stuck with the same bland boring vehicles for forever. I get that they don't get what C:SM gets because they've been out of that loop a long time, but their are demon forge worlds. I want to see a Land Raider with a freaking hellcannon on it. All they get are gimped Imperial vehicles, which are lame.

I like to see this:
Codex:CSM
Codex:Thousand Sons
Codex: Death Guard
Codex:Emperor's Children
Codex:World Eaters

Plague marines with poisoned weapons for crying out loud!!

And if the Heralds are going to be that expensive they need Eternal Warrior.

Blarglord wrote:I like to see this:
Codex:CSM
Codex:Thousand Sons
Codex: Death Guard
Codex:Emperor's Children
Codex:World Eaters

I hope not. Marines need FEWER codices, not more. If this happens, I'd like to see one Sisters codex per major Order. Codex: Ebon Chalice sounds sweet

Codex:Sisters of Slaanesh...

Screw all the other legions, Codex: Death Guard is at the top of the list for me.

Melissia wrote:

Blarglord wrote:I like to see this:
Codex:CSM
Codex:Thousand Sons
Codex: Death Guard
Codex:Emperor's Children
Codex:World Eaters

I hope not. Marines need FEWER codices, not more. If this happens, I'd like to see one Sisters codex per major Order. Codex: Ebon Chalice sounds sweet

If "Codex: Craftworld Eldar" can exist, and goddamn "Codex: Catachans" can exist, I don't see why "Codex: Ebon Chalice" can't.

Lord knows Codex: Chaos Space Marines is so devoid of effort it must have taken 3 days to slap together, surely they can spend a day and throw together a 20 page order/legion specific thing for us to hurl our money at.


...anyway back to reality :(

Thousand sons shooting to ignore cover and gift of chaos used during the shooting or assault phase .

They don't exist. They're no longer functional as of fifth edition.

And yet we still have seven Marine codices. So meh.

Melissia wrote:They don't exist. They're no longer functional as of fifth edition.

And yet we still have seven Marine codices. So meh.

Existing and functioning are different words I think

But that's why I say back to reality, where GW is never doing anything like that again.

Sure they are. That's what Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Black Templars, Codex: Space Wolves are.


SM, GK (as part of DH), and CSM should be the only three Marine codices... but that's not likely to happen either.

Melissia wrote:Sure they are. That's what Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Dark Angels, Codex: Black Templars, Codex: Space Wolves are.


SM, GK (as part of DH), and CSM should be the only three Marine codices... but that's not likely to happen either.

agreed, there will always be at least 4 space marine army lists...more if you count the Chapter specific characters.

Thats what I'd like in CSM, special character lords that turn the CSM into specific legions.

Of course, I think splitting daemons and CSM was sad, because like a lot of you, I now have two armies that both need more models....wait...GW wins...doh!

I'd rather DOW not write the codicies, but if DOW is the main inspirations...I'd like to see cultists, dark chaplains, and beserkers that are worth taking.