How do you deal with a squad of say 5-7 Assault Terminators with Feel No Pain?

1) Using Shooty Army like Tau/IG.
2) Using Assault army like Orks.

In the past, I believe in overwhelming assault terminators with boyz, and make them fail their 2+ armour save. But now that they have Feel No Pain, the efficiency of this plan has reduced by half.

Any ideas?

Big guns. Lots of big guns.

Or pop the transport and have them flootslog the rest of the game. They can't shoot, so they're harmless unless they're in assault anyway.

How would the get FNP? Are you talking about Blood Angels Termies?

An easy answer is a Demolisher Cannons, Plasma Cannons...

As for Tau, a lot of suits. With Plasma.

But they still get their 3+ Invul. Which means the efficiency of your big arms (which are expensive and less abundant in the first place) is reduced by 3 times.

bolters, and ork shootas. Torrent of fire is always the way to down them. Dreads will hurt them, making them assault into cover, feeding them bait units, blocking them with rhinos.

What would I do? Run away. Failing that, I'd say a couple of units of banshees + Doom.

sexiest_hero wrote:bolters, and ork shootas. Torrent of fire is always the way to down them. Dreads will hurt them, making them assault into cover, feeding them bait units, blocking them with rhinos.

Feeding them bait units works. The rest of this list does not. I've used bolters to down terminators often enough, believe me, but when they have FNP it just isn't an option any more. If you can reliably kill them with FNP denying shots, then use those shots, if not, don't even bother, you're wasting your time shooting them and you should either shoot another target or re-position so you don't get assaulted the next turn.

Blocking them with tanks works fine. By assault termies I was thinking only of twin LC >-<. If the choice is blowing up a rhino or killing a unit, use the rhino to block.if all else fails you can run.

With orks, charge them with burnas. 15 burnas will get you 45 attacks on the charge. Hitting on 4s, wounding of 4s againts a 3+ inv save kills about 7.5 terminators before they can strike back.

Personally, my vote is for keeping them away from the action at all, either by taking out their ride or by feeding them bait/bubblewrap as others have mentioned.

However, if that's not feasible, my (purely theoretical and untested) thoughts on actually taking them down:
Snipe the Sanguinary priest. If you can do it ranged, then by all means go for it... but you can always do it to an IC in CC. If that means sacrificing a smaller mob of boyz so that the klaw-equipped nob can take out the priest, so be it. (Or whatever your codex equivalent would be.) He's only got 1 wound, has toughness 4, and can't get an invulnerable save better than 5++. After that, you have a normal squad of assault termies, which are a pain in the rear - but one you already know how to deal with.
Failing that:
Twice as many boyz as you would usually use for an assault termie squad?
Or perhaps tank shocking. Forcing a morale test and then chasing them off the table if they fail has a chance, if they're not red-thirsting.
Both of those could be prohibitively expensive and difficult to arrange, though, if you want to do it reliably. (How many rhinos do you need to sacrifice to tank shocking? 4, roughly?)

Pinning them down is unreliable (unless you're Dark Eldar), but it's absolutely hilarious.

That's why there's a chappy involved with a squad...heck throw in the libby and the mandatory S.Priest.

Slow Death Star though if you go for more bodies and slog it.

Use both your psychic tests on each sorceror to throw Gifts of Chaos into the S. Priest. Turned into a Chaos Spawn on a 5+, no saves of any kind or feel no pain allowed.

Oh and change your army to Tzeentch Chaos obviously.

Nitros14 wrote:Use both your psychic tests on each sorceror to throw Gifts of Chaos into the S. Priest. Turned into a Chaos Spawn on a 5+, no saves of any kind or feel no pain allowed.

Oh and change your army to Tzeentch Chaos obviously.

Ignoring that this is entirely bad advice, I ask you one question: how do you get close enough to use Gift of Chaos. It must be used before your movement phase, and has a range of 6".

DarkHound wrote:Ignoring that this is entirely bad advice, I ask you one question: how do you get close enough to use Gift of Chaos. It must be used before your movement phase, and has a range of 6".

I was joking obviously, but you could[ use it on them while they're engaged in a close combat with something expendable (lesser daemons are quite good at that) then shoot them up after they kill your cannon fodder.

Since Gift of Chaos says "The Psyker may be in close combat at the time as may the target".

That's a bad strategy because it requires you to start your turn within 6" of the unit.

Match cheesy tactics with cheesy tactics. Old Zogwort's curse. If the priest is within 18" you have a 50:50 shot of turning him into a squig. If it doesn't work, and you protected Zogwort, next round try it again...

Well, there is hardly a unit that can stop Assault Termies with FNP.
Only another deathstar unit would be a match up.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, there is hardly a unit that can stop Assault Termies with FNP.
Only another deathstar unit would be a match up.

Grey Knight Termies will utterly destroy thunder hammers. Lightning claws will, however, incur losses.

Grey Knights are not so often seen at the battle field.
FNP does not always work, consider plasma guns and cannons, power weapons, and strong pie plates (AP 2).

wuestenfux wrote:Grey Knights are not so often seen at the battle field.

Grey Knight Terminators never get the recognition they deserve, that's why. The rest of the codex sucks, but GKT are absolutely brilliant.

Fafnir wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Grey Knights are not so often seen at the battle field.

Grey Knight Terminators never get the recognition they deserve, that's why. The rest of the codex sucks, but GKT are absolutely brilliant.

That's one problem of the DH codex. However, the codex is not too bad. Consider Stelek's lists. He got the DH army going.

To kill a terminator:

High strength weaponry (lascannon, plasma cannon etc)

Number of hits. You get enough boyz scoring hits (30 hits!) you'll get so many wounds they're bound to go down.

Power Weapons. Power weapons ignore armour saves! So he has to use his 5+ invulnerable. And that's easier than done sometimes.

Poisoned Weapons. Automatically wound on a 2+

Warp Powers. Some of the psychic powers available ignore armour.


Personally I'd go with lots and lots of power weapons.

I haven't seen any solution here that's actually anywhere near cost effective - below are some figures assuming you're attacking as with SM stats:

1) BOLTERS
3 to hit, 4 to wound, Sv of 2 and 4 FNP = around 200 bolter shots to kill 5 Thunderhammer Terminators

2) LASCANNONS
3 to hit, 2 to wound, Invun Sv of 3 = About 25-30 Lascannons to kill 5 Thunderhammer Terminators

3) MELLEE
4s to hit, 4s to wound, Sv of 2 and 4 FNP = About 250 attacks to kill 5 Thunderhammer Terminators

4) POWER WEAPONS
4s to hit, 4s to wound, Invun Sv of 3 = About 60 power weapon attacks to kill 5 Thunderhammer Terminators

Can someone correct me if my maths are wrong on this? Because it seems the only solution is to either a) prevent them from hitting your lines, or b) tie them up with something sacrificial so they don't get the opportunity to attack the rest of your army...

Demolisher cannons come to mind. They are not THAT expensive (165 points for a Leman Russ, 115 points for a Vindicator) and when you drop two of those big templates of the unit and hit...well, you got good chances for two wounds on every model and only 3+ invuln saves apply.

And those Demolishers can also be used to crack basically everything else. However, their short range might be a problem; still, they are the best counter I can think of. Two or three of those things WILL devastate this unit if your dice don't get all crazy.


Ran some very quick "test shots" on a squad of 6 terminators (placed ~2inches apart) here on my table:

1st attempt - two Demolisher cannons [BS4] killed 2 of 6 terminators. Morale test succeeded.
2nd attempt - two Demolisher cannons [BS4] killed 2 of 6 terminators. Morale test succeeded.
3rd attempt - two Demolisher cannons [BS4] killed 4 of 6 terminators. Morale test succeeded.
4th attempt - two Demolisher cannons [BS4] killed 2 of 6 terminators. Morale test succeeded.
5th attempt - two Demolisher cannons [BS4] killed 3 of 6 terminators. Morale test succeeded.

Soo..this is very little testing for real statistics, but statistics are hard when it comes to blast templates. On average, two Demolisher cannons killed 2.6 terminators. Not great, but better than having to bring 100 Bolters, I think.

PS: Those shots were made by 2 heavy support choices costing 230 points. The FNP termis probably cost more than that.

PPS: Using a squadron of LR Demolishers might be even better, because this might result in one wound minimum per terminator squad member; this means, if there's some kind of IC present, he might be insta-killed by the S10 shell.

Kill Kannon

Railgun

Lascannon

Demolisher is quite nice.

Assault Cannon on a roll of a 6 (RENDING)

Dreadnought Close Combat Power Weapon

Captain w/ Relic Blade and Digital Weapons

Marneus Calgar in Armour of Antilochus....

Railguns seem a bit problematic to me here. It's only one shot that is still negated on a 3+. I would prefer any kind of S8+ Blast over a Railgun in this case, I think. More wounds, still no FNP, although the save might be better against AP3 only blasts.

I just stumbled upon the perfect weapon: A battery of Medusa Artillery pieces! Three of those are 405pts, which will still be cheaper than a Land Raider and 6 FNP terminators. These things are S10 AP2 ordnance, which should work well to crack or stop the LR and then mush the terminators inside to a pulp.

Corennus wrote:

Railgun

Lascannon

Demolisher is quite nice.

Assault Cannon on a roll of a 6 (RENDING)

Dreadnought Close Combat Power Weapon

Captain w/ Relic Blade and Digital Weapons

Marneus Calgar in Armour of Antilochus....

You are joking with some of those options right?

very simple

hit them with a hail of gunfire, if there is 10 guys + 1 priest in the squad, after 10 hits one has to be assigned to the priest, hope he fails his save, if you can hit them with a hail of something that is ap2, like a squad of leman russ demolishers or something, all the better.

anything that can pin (they will fail eventually)
any psy powers (jaws comes to mind, anything to reduce LD)
you can sacrifice someone cheap to go turn the priest into paste singling him out in CC and rob the termies of their fnp. If the priest isn't attached you gun him down.
Deff rolla could do the job I think, lootas maybe, ect. ect.

My best shot would be psycher battle squad reducing their LD then hit them with ordinance all day long.

Yes Sanctjud.

Captain w/Relic Blade and Digi Weapons....no i'm not.

A Devastator team with 4 lascannons and Darnarth Lysander (Bolter Drill).

Umm what else can I think of to take out a Terminator..

T-L Assault Cannon.

Vortex of Doom

KILL KANNON for orks

Captain on the charge can take out...what? 2/3 of a termy...

Devs with 4 lascannon, ok that's a joke,...with Lysander Lawl Topping.

TL Assault Cannons, only when massed.
You need 21 hits to translate into 18 wounds to result in 3 rends to kill one termy. THen the 15 regular wounds would translate into one kill.
You'd need roughly 5 Assault Cannons to kill 2 termies on average.

Vortex of doom... short range, small template, only BS 4, still get inv saves, another joke.

Kill Kannon: no comment.

I'm starting to wonder what does kill terminators........since all of everything i've come up with seems to be trash

It's not trash, it's just not economical.
As said before, it's weight of attacks. It can be low ap to high ap, it can be lots of regular attacks or power weapon attacks.

Basically you overload them with more economical choices and figures...

4 Lascannon Devs is just too funny of a suggestion.

What about 2 shock attack guns? You gotta roll double sixes some time! two of them will get there twice as fast!

5" Large Blasts with AP2 do. (Demolisher, Medusa, Orbital Bombardment , Marbo ) And Jaws of the World Wolf has a rather good chance, too. Everything else will probably be not that effective. Oh, someone pointed out 15 Burna Boyz, that's a rather good idea, I think!

For IG:

Tank shock them into a clump and then use 1-2 plascutioners.

or

Use 2 units of rough riders.

For Orks:
15 burnas and a battlewagon

Tau: Helios suits. Fusion/Plasma with a multi-tracker x3 that jump into 12" and back out to 18" - that's 6 STR6 AP2 and 3 STR8 AP1 shots per turn; those are fantastic terminator killers.

Orks: Ghazghkull Thraka is part of all my ork lists. He chews on terminators. They perish. If they don't have thunderhammers you can also throw a nob squad at them (with cybork bodies of course), and if they do have thunderhammers, throw boyz at them. a squad of trukk boyz on the charge is 11 boyz (44 attacks) hitting 22 times, wounding 11 times, causing 2 failed wounds and 1 failed FNP before the nob even chimes in. You mentioned 3++ saves, so I presume these are TH/SS - in which case I would throw burnas at them in close combat; 45 attacks, 23 hits, 12 wounds, 3 failed invulnerable saves.

Preferably, I would throw burnas AND a unit of boyz at them.

20 Rough Riders (assuming they are not shot ) would kill roughly 4-5.

200 points of Rough Riders killed 200 points of termies, not terrible, but not great...but that's what one can expect from Hamminators.

Burna Boys in battlewagon are a fun option.
Lets say you get 7 under the template, that's 7 autohit times 15 .
But the results are iffy, roudhly 4-5 go down on average.

Again, these are just random numbers...make them roll saves and they will eventually fail. You do not want to spend too much points into making them roll those saves though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Helios spam.
From one squad that's 9 shots, lets assume enough marker lights to hit on 2's, which would result in 2 dying termies on average.

Not bad, but the only issue is getting that close, even at 18" that's a dangerous range to be in.

As for mass ork boyz, the answer would be: yes.

If you get 6 Terminators under the burnawagon template, that's 90 hits. And you still kill only 0.78125 Terminators. I think you have to go with assault for the burnaz. In assault and assuming the Terminators are ALL hammernators (so strike at I1), the burnaz kill 3.75 Terminators on average. That's 4.8 times the kills they would do with shooting!

Tank shock them. Repeatedly.

Has anyone mentioned the Nightbringer yet?

He kills 2.5 termies on the charge IIRC.
But he's pretty slow himself.
Although he would need like 40 attacks from the termies to put down, and doesn't 'have' to stay in combat with them.

But a C'Tan is rarely the answer to alot of things.

Vanilla Assault Terminators with Cassius, who do the exact same thing as the BA Terminators+Priest+Chaplain, but for about 105 points cheaper?

A loaded Crusader with TH/SS Terms, Chaplain, and Sang Priest will run ~710 points. For the same cost, I'd rather have Death Company with Chaplain. Much, much more offensive capability even with just a few power weapons/fists and far more survivable against elite assault units like AssTerms.

10 wolf guard in power armor, all armed with power weapons, plus Rangar Blackmane.

40-60 attacks on the charge, S5, I5, ignore armor, ignore FnP, even with minimum of 40 attacks, running averages vs a unit of 5 TH/SS termies kills 4/5 not including Ragnars contribution of attacks (which can go entirely on the priest, lulz).

Expensive, but aside from walkers there isnt much this unit can't wipe out

I actually saw someone craftily use a combination of a Bait Meltavetsquad, a Vindicare Assassin and Demolishers to omnomnomnom a unit of them once.

Though to be be fair the guy was using LC Termies. xD

A Vindicare Assassin is indeed a smart way of getting rid of the priest. Then you can go back to "normal" tactics of getting rid of Terminators...ah, I like the Vindicare, but he's rather expensive and hard to get outside of Daemonhunter armies.

it is true that normal TH/SS terminators die to sustained bolter fire, BUT and its a big BUT, we are discussing FNP TH/SS terminators.


it normally takes 24 bolter shots to kill a terminator. 24 shots, 12 hit, 6 wound, 1 failed save.

FNP doubles this number, DOUBLES.

48 bolter shots, 24 hit, 12 wound, 2 unsaved wounds, 1 failed FNP roll.

so a basic 5 man TH/SS squad with FNP will take 240 bolter shots to kill.



now you may say they lose the FNP advantage against certain weapons. powerweapons, Lascannons, battlecannon, and demolisher cannons.

well the problem is they are nearly invulnerable to these weapons as it stands with the 3+ invulns.


it takes 3 Lascannon and Demolisher cannon wounds to kill a TH/SS terminator. battle cannons are AP3 so the terminator gets his armor save.


you will need alot of lascannons to get the required wounds to reliably get the wounds. Pieplates can hit anywhere from 0-7 models. 4 prehaps if the opponent spreads ot to max coherenency and you get a direct hit.

thats 1 dead terminator if a Demo cannon and .6 dead terminators if a battlecannon.


powerweapons can't be taken in great enough numbers to worry the terminators Invuln save and a powerweapon armed unit will be expensive and CC is what the terminators want to be in.



FNP terminators are nasty.

Grey Templar:

Regarding Bolters, they are almost exclusively wielded by BS4 models, so 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 1 failed save is the going rate for ordinary Terminators. That would mean that 36 shots would be required for Terminators with Feel No Pain. Therefore, it would be reasonable to expect ~180 Bolter shots to kill a unit of Terminators with Feel No Pain.

That's two Tactical Squads shooting at the unit for five turns at <12" range.

2 squads of sonic blaster chaos space marines mass up 60 shots at 24" standing still...only takes 3 rounds .

Sanctjud wrote:2 squads of sonic blaster chaos space marines mass up 60 shots at 24" standing still...only takes 3 rounds .

But they'll only get two rounds

I try to kite them around best I can. In all three of my armies it's pretty much game over if they get into combat with them.

The Swarmlord With help, and Paroxyism can do it, but it's very risky.

"But they'll only get two rounds" then the doom siren and power sword finish them.

Deamons, with Flamers. As they don't get an armor save, would they still get FNP. regardless that can be a lot of hits in.


I had them in a game a few weeks ago, I popped the LR with broadsides and had to footslog it. They walked through a gap that I had inflitrated 2 units of kroot x10 into woods, and they were in double tap range and killed 6 over the course of two turns.

Acardia wrote:Deamons, with Flamers. As they don't get an armor save, would they still get FNP. regardless that can be a lot of hits in.


I had them in a game a few weeks ago, I popped the LR with broadsides and had to footslog it. They walked through a gap that I had inflitrated 2 units of kroot x10 into woods, and they were in double tap range and killed 6 over the course of two turns.

No, any attack that ignores armour also ignores FNP.

9 Howling Banshees with Exarch with an Executioner + Doom could hurt them.

Then again, you could also just Mind War the Priest and hopefully take care of the problem the old fashioned way.

Or use Orks and just Burna them to death like you always do.

Feel No Pain is no use against Da Kan Open'rs!

Conversion beamer goodness. Str 10 Ap 1 = death. No FNP, no regular save.

@nivondu:
That is a not a serious post.
It's a small blast template, requires hiding in a corner (which leaves him vulnerable to Outflankers/longer range weapons that can instant kill him)

What would you do? You'd hit 1 at most 2 dudes, then they get a 3++ save.

@Gwar!:
Yup, even regular boyz are fine to lock them down as their number of attacks are not much if mostly Hamminators.

@Monster Rain:
Banshees are sadly not a great solo counter.
With doom they kill 2-3.
Lets say 3 go down in a squad of 7 with 2 non-TDA ICs after you pop their ride....ignoring IC attacks the remaining Hamminators kill 3.
With the IC's it's most likely you are losing combat...

Clean up? Yes, Banshees with doom and other army elements breaking them down will work...the only question how much support...

Hmm. Librarian with Nullzone accompanying a squad of Sternguard with Combi-Plasma Guns?

i actually wiped out 5 AT:s with FNP with 8 thousand sons and bolt of change...awesomeness

@Nurglitch:
Yes.

@goggari:
Yes, any shooting helps when you make them roll saves, but being really luck is not a useful suggestion, nor was it a funny joke.

If taken literally, BoC is overpriced and suffers from needing to roll so many dice to get off.
Lets assume BoC kills one.
That would mean the Bolters rapid fired or not would need to cause a minimum of 4 with him failing 4 two up saves.... and if you are talking about FNP termies, then 4 failed FNPs...

1-2 is roughly what to expect and you should be really happy with it.

5 is just really poor/great rolling. ;D

Khorne bloodletters or blood crushers are pretty efficient because of the mass S5 PWs...

The important thing about CC is that you can quickly single out the priest and kill him because of his IC status, effectively removing the FnP.
This could be done with a sacrificial squad, since they only need to kill the priest. In the next turn the rest of the terminators could be taken out with mass fire from the rest of the army.

Bonde wrote:The important thing about CC is that you can quickly single out the priest and kill him because of his IC status, effectively removing the FnP.
This could be done with a sacrificial squad, since they only need to kill the priest. In the next turn the rest of the terminators could be taken out with mass fire from the rest of the army.

Of course if the BA player is in any way smart, he will space his terminators just enough so that the Priest is unable to fit through their bases if they are assaulted, thus keeping him safe for at least two turns of Combat

Then again, how about an equal number of Assault Terminators? Preferably with VulkanHammers?

@dereksatkinson:
That's one idea, but note, they are all infantry pace...

@Bonde:
True, but it's not that easy with a little planning on the BA players' part. (IE Light Bulb Formation).

An issue, what if they get a 2 round combat, though it's not too likely. What about kill points, feeding units is not a great plan in general as you give them extra movement range if you are not careful with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Monster Rain:
Well, everything would really depends who gets the charge, aka "who commits first and loses the initiative."

If you were playing vanilla marines, you could use Sgt. Tellion to snipe the priest from a distance and then take the termies down like you are used to. That would be a cost effective solution, although only possible with one army. You would probably just need to pop the Land Raider first...

You can focus fire, but Telion doesn't mean auto-wound. Rending is both a blessing and a curse....curse being you need that 6 on that exact sequence.

Here's the thing, the sequence you need to get to 'normal terminator' removal.

Prob. Smoked LR, then snipe the FNP dude, then apply normal weaponry on 2+/3++.
It's not to say it's undoable, but it's just too specific... just assume the FNP is still there and if he dies early, then great.

Nurglitch wrote:Hmm. Librarian with Nullzone accompanying a squad of Sternguard with Combi-Plasma Guns?

That is a direct counter to FNP assault termies. No armor, No FNP, RR-Invulns. AWESOME.

The second best option seems to be using transports to block, when you can't kite them anymore.

I also wouldn't expect to see a squad of nothing but TH/Shield termies running around, as the claws are ridiculously awesome on the charge. (Ini5, S5 = gnarly).

What does the battlewagon's def rolla tank shock give in terms of armor penetration? I assume it's -- since it doesn't say. But if you tank shock the unit, everyone takes D6 Str 10 hits. If they accept the charge they 2D6. They'd still get normal saves, but it's a way to target the priest even bubble wrapped and you could even have your load of burna boyz in there.

Ragnar Blackmane and some wolfguard with frostblades. Hit on 3s, wound on 2s, no FNP.

DukeRustfield wrote:What does the battlewagon's def rolla tank shock give in terms of armor penetration? I assume it's -- since it doesn't say. But if you tank shock the unit, everyone takes D6 Str 10 hits. If they accept the charge they 2D6. They'd still get normal saves, but it's a way to target the priest even bubble wrapped and you could even have your load of burna boyz in there.

Hmm... it makes absolutely no sense that a S10 weapon would be AP--... but it appears that you could be correct.

Interesting, does anyone have RAW that confirms any AP value? Not having it spelled out doesn't automatically make me assume it is considered AP--.

this is funny though entire armies worth of fire to bring down a 250 pt squad...I might have to take a unit like this in competitive games.

lol swarm lord comes to mind...Strike First, 3's to hit, 2's to kill. It'd still take a couple turns though. Avg. is like 2.8 or 2.9 kills per phase not counting guard. Plus the terms would have a hard time killing him back. And you wouldn't have to waste a turn on the priest since he does no good against such a monstrosity.

Wouldn't do something like that in a friendly game I don't think. Well...unless I didn't like the "friend" at least.



Edit:

Forgot that it's reroll inv. saves so I guess it'd be like 2.25. Still 2 assault phases with guard or a brood of genestealers (especially with the help of Swarm Leader)

Oh, I know! Blud Tarronz on a Blud Angles Spess Marhine Dreadnoot!

But yeah, in a cruel twist, I am guessing the Blood Tallon Furioso is the best way to deal with Blood Angel Termies. xD

Dashofpepper wrote:Tau: Helios suits. Fusion/Plasma with a multi-tracker x3 that jump into 12" and back out to 18" - that's 6 STR6 AP2 and 3 STR8 AP1 shots per turn; those are fantastic terminator killers.

Yes, I think this is one of the COST EFFICIENT choice. I ll try that.

Dashofpepper wrote:Orks: Ghazghkull Thraka is part of all my ork lists. He chews on terminators. They perish. If they don't have thunderhammers you can also throw a nob squad at them (with cybork bodies of course), and if they do have thunderhammers, throw boyz at them. a squad of trukk boyz on the charge is 11 boyz (44 attacks) hitting 22 times, wounding 11 times, causing 2 failed wounds and 1 failed FNP before the nob even chimes in. You mentioned 3++ saves, so I presume these are TH/SS - in which case I would throw burnas at them in close combat; 45 attacks, 23 hits, 12 wounds, 3 failed invulnerable saves.

Preferably, I would throw burnas AND a unit of boyz at them.

Not a good choice. Most termi squad consist of a combination of TH/SS and LC. They will wipe out a few burnas before they get to strike. And if ultimately your burnas + boys did manage to cause 3-5 wounds, chances are you would still have lost the combat and be forced to take Ld test on the burnas, and fearless wounds on the boys. Didnt send Ghaz in because I knew he couldnt have killled the termi within 1 game turn.

Mass flamer is hardly the solution because most often you will cover about 4 (unless the opponent isnt very good, which then will be an easy fight anyway), 60 hits, 30 wounds, 5 failed armour save, 2.5 dead termi per TRY.

If he's going to cover his priest they have to be "somewhat" close together. And the flamers can be used to kill the priest and he loses a lot of defensive power.

I take 3 vindicators in my lists, so that is no problem for me.

Anyway, what army do you play, that is really where it matters.

Just reading around I realized Eldar have a number of options.

-A Farseer with Mindwar within 18". Farseer rolls D6 + 10, Priest D6 + 9. The difference is the wounds taken by the Priest (if he loses). No armor save.
-DCannon. 24" blast. Wound on 2+ AP2 (so only invuln save), but instant kill on a 6.
-Wraithcannons. Same as above but 12" and no Blast, but you can have 10 of em (damn expensive though).

Uhm how about Null Zone? And a lot of AP2 blast weapons.

Assuming TH/SS, say one takes a plasma wound, with null zone your chances of success went from 33% to 55%.

Still not great, but against TH/SS termies, I'll take it.

Also Corennus, I doubt a Captain suited out like that would make much difference. You'll do about 2 S6 power weapons wounds a turn and with their 3+ invul its not likely to work.

And iirc Bolter Drill only works with, oddly enough, bolters.

TL-AC is not exactly threatning to a termie... assuming they all hit, only 1/6 of your to roll wounds would cause rending. Not reliable enough, though rolling for 6's is always fun!

I got another suggestion. How about an Ironclad dreadnought? AV 13 is utterly annoying to get past even with Thunder Hammers. Though that just may be my horrible dice luck when assaulting.

Hmmmm how about Devastator squad with 4 plasma cannons? Assuming they don't scatter you could take out a squad with repeated plasma blasts.

The new Eldar Nightspinner might not be a bad choice... Might get some lucky rending hits in, might get a pin, and then puts the unit in Dangerous and Difficult terrain slowing them down and killing the odd model with a Dangerous terrain check.

If nothing else, it'd give Eldar players some time/space to redeploy to deal with them.

Valete,

JohnS

Um.....Shadowsword?

Baneblade?

TITAN

If you can put enough weight of fire on the unit you can start forcing wounds onto the priest. Even if it'll take ~200 bolter shots to kill 5 termies, you should be able to kill off the FNP giver long before that and then watch them crumble.

the problem is all of these solutions require 3+ turns of shooting.

this assumes several things.


either the termies are footsloggin(who in their right mind would do that?)

you popped their LR on the first turn(this also assumes you went first and were actually able to immobilize it)

and/or the terminators aren't Deep Striking



if the terminators are footsloggin you can ignore them. you will probably have more dangerous things in your face on turn 2 that will be very distracting. Furioso librarian, Furioso with Bloodtalons, Deathcompany and Assault marines(who will have FnP and FC)





my logic on assault terminators.

if they can't get to me by turn3 then they won't get there at all.


if assault terminators get even 1 movement phase inside a Landraider to move up the board then they get dangerous, but if they are hoofing it then they aren't dangerous.

Grey Templar wrote:
and/or the terminators aren't Deep Striking

This is really the best case scenario for me.

They won't be a problem until at least turn 3, and the turn they come in they are vulnerable to shooting or I can move around them.

if they are deep striking that is 2-3 turns you aren't shooting at them.

and once down they will only have to weather a turn or so of fire before they get into something juicy

But that's when you shoot them with the entire army, then charge. Just hope you've managed to soften up everything else that's been rolling towards you before they came down.

the key word in your post is hope.




if he has assault squads using Descent of Angels alongside the terminators then you are in trouble.

Several Points to make.

Assault Termies can not keep up with Jump Pack Spam or fast vehicles. The rest of the BA army is too fast for termies to keep up with them. It's far to easy for a BA player to make the mistake of engaging with fast units first before slow units can come up to reinforce the fast elements of his army. It's easy to out run the assault termies, and then turn around to engage the fast elements of the BA army that's chasing yours.

No Priest No FNP. Kill the priest. Charge the assault termies with an expendable squad such as truk boys that have a nob or a combat squaded tactical squad that has a pfist sergeant. The Priest is an IC that has no invo in power armor, and a 5+ at best if he's in terminator armor. Put the Pfist/PKlaw in base to base contact with the priest and FNP goes away. Should work just about every time unless half the squad is lightning claws and they wipe out the entire assaulting squad before pfists go off, which is why I don't believe in going 100% Thammer with BA termies.

A priest attached to termies means it's not attached to a fast element of the BA army. Kill the priest that's attached to the fast element of the BA army and most of his army will be without a priest unless they sacrifice their speed to remain close to the termies. The only thing that should really worry people with BA termies is a land raider crusader, so just Kamakazi a melta gun unit to destroy the land raider. No land raider no speed. Blood Angles need speed to win.

Chaos shouldn't be complaining. Just Lash the termies away from your army and you just happen to lash the priest along with them. Units without a priest but inside the priests bubble can lose FNP because lash moved the priest. 3+ invos only go so far when assault termies get lashed together and eat a triple plasma cannon burst from 3 oblits, and the best part is if you force as many wounds on the unit as they have models the attached priest has to take a wound, and guess who is not allowed to take a storm shield

IG should not be complaining. If IG can't pop a single land raider the player is doing something very wrong. If the squad size is 8 or less the IG player only needs to kill 2 terminators. After the 2nd one is dead the psychic battle squad can drop their leadership to 2, and units within 6" can make them fall off the board or at the very least 2D6 + another 2D6 on the BA player's turn. If the IG player has multiple Valks they should be able to move a unit within 6" of the termies every turn until they fall off the board.

Regwon wrote:With orks, charge them with burnas. 15 burnas will get you 45 attacks on the charge. Hitting on 4s, wounding of 4s againts a 3+ inv save kills about 7.5 terminators before they can strike back.

Your math is wrong.

The Burnas get 45 attacks ~ 22.5 hits ~ 11.25 Wounds ~ 3.71 failed saves with a 3+ Inv.

As an ork player, power klaws and Ghazghkull work just fine. Or hit 'em with the battlewagon burna trick: 15 burnas x 6 hits on terminators = 90 hits, 45 wounds. Even after failed saves and FNP, that will kill most of 'em.

Tactically, if you can kill the sanguinary priest first, makes your job easier.

Skarboy wrote:As an ork player, power klaws and Ghazghkull work just fine. Or hit 'em with the battlewagon burna trick: 15 burnas x 6 hits on terminators = 90 hits, 45 wounds. Even after failed saves and FNP, that will kill most of 'em.

Tactically, if you can kill the sanguinary priest first, makes your job easier.

The magic number is 12. It takes an average of 12 wounds to kill 1 FNP termie.

48 wounds=4 dead termies so I would not make plans based on burnas killing more than 4 of them.

Now I wonder. How about Corbulo with the termies? He gets 2+ FNP and any AP2 wounds and such one could put on the TH/SS guys.

This is the only time I can say this: NECRON PARIAHS.

I played against them with the TH/SS FNP squad and got them torn apart. Managed to get a draw, but it sure was embarrasing to lose a huge squad like I did.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:I take 3 vindicators in my lists, so that is no problem for me.

Anyway, what army do you play, that is really where it matters.

How many termies do you think you will kill with each blast?

He'd probably hit three (if it doesn't scatter) and kill one with the first, then hit two with the second, maybe killing one, and hit two again with the third if he's lucky. That's still only about 2-3 dead termies.
This is actually a case where it would have an advantage to squadron vehicles like demolishers, because casualty removal during the shooting phase can feth up the coherency of the terminator squad, making even pie plates much less effective.

If you're guard you can counter with a roughly points equivalent unit. This math assumes a 10 man squad DSing in a spot where your guard blob can shoot with rapid fire weapons.

Enemy Unit: 10 TH/SS Termies + Sanguinary Guard w/ Termie Armor and Claw - 50pts.

Guard Blob: 40 guardsmen, Sergeants with P. Sword, Commissar with P. Sword 1x Vox, Lord Commisar with Fist, CCS - 565pts.

Long story short the guard blob can kill a termie shooting, and then kill the S. Priest and a termie the next turn. After that they kill about 2.5 a turn while losing about 10 sacrifices a turn back. The guard win with about 10 meat shields and all upgrade characters.

Null Zone and some AP2 or power weaons should do the trick. Hit them early with Lightning Claws to take advantage of their low Int. Vanilla Marines still have a use!

Would Machine Curse have any effect on Terminators?

radiohazard wrote:This is the only time I can say this: NECRON PARIAHS.

I played against them with the TH/SS FNP squad and got them torn apart. Managed to get a draw, but it sure was embarrasing to lose a huge squad like I did.

Pariahs are the counter to pretty much ANYTHING, the only problem is it's close to impossible to get them where they need to be. If they were able to be VoDarknessed, then they would kick ass. As it is, they suck! :(

Pariahs couldt still work, but it takes some doing. A C'tan could hurt them pretty badly as well, striking first with a S10 or S8 whipsmack that ignores every kind of save...

Melta Guns. Lots of Melta Guns.

Have Librarian cast Null Zone, then have 2 tac squads with combi-melta, melta gun and multi-melta open up on the Terminators.

Would a Hammerhead up on a floor of a ruin with just enough space for it's base and nothing else be able to kill them?

I've managed to do that with EML wave serpents from time to time. I didn't set up the terrain and it's just there so why not

Although my opponents now are careful of what buildings they use as last time a Trygon jumped up and found it could only shoot the tank not assault it.

A squad of 3 Punisher tanks coupled with a Psyker battle squad that uses Weaken Resolve and yet another unit that will always stay within 6" of the Termie Squad so that it can't rally.

@hamsterwheel,

And you'll kill... 2 terminators?

More importantly, termies without a chappy...

n0t_u wrote:Would a Hammerhead up on a floor of a ruin with just enough space for it's base and nothing else be able to kill them?

I've managed to do that with EML wave serpents from time to time. I didn't set up the terrain and it's just there so why not

Although my opponents now are careful of what buildings they use as last time a Trygon jumped up and found it could only shoot the tank not assault it.

Read the rules for assaulting in ruins. They can still assault you from the story below.

True about the Chappy.

I'll have to go with the suggestion that someone else previously gave, 1 Daemon with Pavane, 12 Flamers using Breath of Chaos.

Most folks are just thinking WAY too hard here. All you need is a weapon that puts a high number of wounds on the squad in one volley, and youc an pick out the Snaguinary Priest by pure weight of fire and wound allocation.

Hellfire rounds rapid fired by sternguard, pie plates of S 6 or more (regardless of AP, though AP3 would be best), heavy bolter Devvies or attack bike squadrons, etc etc.

The problem is, with a 3+/4++ the Priest Just will not die to non AP2 weaponry. Hell, if they take Corbulo, thats a 3+/2++ they have to bypass.

Vortex grenade!....gets em every time!

Or a SAG with Loaded Dice

A brother Cordulo 10 man hammer+shield squad costs 560 and gets 20 hammer attacks + the brother's chainsword.

Chaos Terminators beat them for cost. A 10 man Champion squad with Mark of Khorne has 50 power weapon attacks a turn without charge at 430 points for the squad. They also strike at normal initiative instead of 1 if using hammer. Or you could give up an attack and use Mark of Tzeenth and get a closer invuln save (4 vs their 3 with shield). Or leave as is and add something like a Sorc or CL, and you can do tons of stuff with them, though the point cost is a lot closer then. For 50 points you can arm them all with combo meltas and get off ten 8,1 attacks before you close with them. Blood for the blood god.

Marbo would be a good suicide option. He can run in, toss the demo charge and hopefully take out a couple and then go after the priest in hand to hand. He will then be smashed into jelly by thunder hammers but he has a good shot at blowing up or knifing the priest.

DukeRustfield wrote:A brother Cordulo 10 man hammer+shield squad costs 560 and gets 20 hammer attacks + the brother's chainsword.

Chaos Terminators beat them for cost. A 10 man Champion squad with Mark of Khorne has 50 power weapon attacks a turn without charge at 430 points for the squad. They also strike at normal initiative instead of 1 if using hammer. Or you could give up an attack and use Mark of Tzeenth and get a closer invuln save (4 vs their 3 with shield). Or leave as is and add something like a Sorc or CL, and you can do tons of stuff with them, though the point cost is a lot closer then. For 50 points you can arm them all with combo meltas and get off ten 8,1 attacks before you close with them. Blood for the blood god.

Chaos Terminators champions have 3 base attacks, then they get one each for the icon. So you're looking at 40 attacks, or 50 if they get the charge. Lets be nice to them and say that they do indeed get the charge, then they hit 25 times, wound 12 times, and 4 of those wounds are failed saves.

The BA assault terminators then strike back, with 16 attacks, 8 hits, 7ish wounds, and 5 chaos terminators die. It's all downhill from there folks. If the BA terminators get the assault the chaos terminators are just boned. Granted, you're fighting the BA terminators with a unit that is one of the only ways to kill them, isn't it better not to cripple your own army in order to be able to kill one unit?

Sorry to sound like a fish out of water, I just started playing again, how are the termies getting 3+invuln and fell no pain?

Thanks.

In Codex: Blood Angels the Assault Terminator unit has the option of upgrading their pairs of Lightening Claws to a Thunder Hammer and a Storm Shields. Storm Shields confer an Iv3+.

In the same book you can get up to three Sanguinary Priests per Elite slot, and each Sanguinary Priest grants Feel No Pain and Furious Charge to units within 6". Sanguinary Priests are also Independent Characters, so they can join a unit of Assault Terminators.

tedurur wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:I take 3 vindicators in my lists, so that is no problem for me.

Anyway, what army do you play, that is really where it matters.

How many termies do you think you will kill with each blast?

1-2

Also, null zone should tack on another 1-2.

Meng wrote:Sorry to sound like a fish out of water, I just started playing again, how are the termies getting 3+invuln and fell no pain?

Thanks.

Terminators get a 3+ invulnerable from the storm shield.

They get FnP from the (blood angels) sanguinary priest.

Thanks! Good stuff.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the obvious.

(I hate to say this)
SW Rune priest with JOWW. You take down 1/3 of the squad per casting.

You just need to tankshock them with something to get them into line first.


Suddenly the power doesn't seem too out of place when you realize that units of 10 FNP/TH/SS termies can exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:
IG should not be complaining. If IG can't pop a single land raider the player is doing something very wrong. If the squad size is 8 or less the IG player only needs to kill 2 terminators. After the 2nd one is dead the psychic battle squad can drop their leadership to 2, and units within 6" can make them fall off the board or at the very least 2D6 + another 2D6 on the BA player's turn. If the IG player has multiple Valks they should be able to move a unit within 6" of the termies every turn until they fall off the board.

IG doesn't have to kill any of them. Use the PBS to make them LD2 then tankshock them with anything. You must pass your LD check before you can declare DOG or anything else.

My first advice, is to not bring assault terminators.

My ard boyz list had 9 normal termies(2 assault cannons) with a san priest all on foot. they were ackward to move sometimes with so many larger bases and cover being what it was. But the worst situation i found myself in was being charged by two trukks of orks crashed into them, i didnt lose a single termy and got to follow up with 16 power fist attacks and 4 power sword attacks. and smote face.

having the guns on the termies works great for me because i run two drop pod assault squads that land first turn and the termies easily cleared out several heavy weapons and on one occasion a landraider with shear lead.

@infamousxiii

Ok, though assault terminators can be much better against certain lists, such as mine, that has 3 vindicators, 6 plasma cannons, and null zone!

In all seriousness, most builds have something that the TH/SS terminators help against.

Look, FNP Terminators die the same way as non FNP assault terminators to what you usually use against Terminators. The only folks who have trouble with this unit are those who are killing Terminators via volume of saves. Those people need to switch to AP 2/power weapons, or use twice as much firepower.

That's about the size of it. If you are currently killing Terminators by charging them with Bloodcrushers, you won't even notice the FNP. If you are killing them by charging them with gaunts, then double down or break out the combat shrikes.

40kenthusiast wrote:Look, FNP Terminators die the same way as non FNP assault terminators to what you usually use against Terminators. The only folks who have trouble with this unit are those who are killing Terminators via volume of saves. Those people need to switch to AP 2/power weapons, or use twice as much firepower.

That's about the size of it. If you are currently killing Terminators by charging them with Bloodcrushers, you won't even notice the FNP. If you are killing them by charging them with gaunts, then double down or break out the combat shrikes.

Win thread.

Something worth mentioning about doubling the number of shots/attacks that you throw in the direction of Assault Terminators is that Terminators cannot engage in Sweeping Advance. If you throw a unit of 20 Hormagaunts backstopped by a Synapse unit 3" behind the closest Hormagaunt, then they can be expected to do the following:

20 Hormagaunts should net 60 attacks, 35 hits, 12 wounds, and 1 casualty. Supposing a unit of 6 Terminators with a Sanguinary Priest and Chaplain, then the Chaplain and Sanguinary Priest get 4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 Hormagaunt casualties, and assuming they're all armed with Thunder Hammers, the remaining five Terminators should get 10 attacks, 7 hits, and 6 more Hormagaunt casualties. The Hormagaunts therefore can be expected to lose by 6, requiring snake-eyes to pass their Morale check.

You don't want them to pass their Morale check though, because you want them to Fall Back, with no risk of Sweeping Advance, automatically Rally because they're Fallen Back into Synapse, and be ready to play catcher to the incoming Terminators. Sure, you've lost 48pts of Hormagaunts to 45pts of Terminators, but you did it by throwing 120pts of Hormagaunts into 485pts of Terminators.

Suppose we crank up those Hormagaunts so that they had Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs, and cost 200pts. Then we could expect to see 60 attacks, 35 hits, 26 wounds, and 2 casualties. That would mean that in addition to the 2 casualties expected from the Chaplain and Sanguinary Priest, four Terminators would have 8 attacks, 5 hits, and 4 Hormagaunt casualties, and the Hormagaunts still run on snake-eyes. Except this time it's 90pts worth of Terminators to 60pts worth of Hormagaunts.

If we really want to even the score, we could suppose that 300pts of 30 Hormagaunts attack powered by Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs. That would mean 90 attacks, 52 hits, 39 wounds, 6 Terminator casualties. The Chaplain and the Sanguinary Priest cause their expected 4 Hormagaunt casualties, and then thanks to the presence of the Chaplain automatically suffer 2 No Retreat saves for no real difference, and face 26 angry Hormagaunts in the next combat phase.

I run 5 hammernators with FNP and nothing has downed them as effectively as a Necron war scythe, as it allows no saves...

It ate right thru em, he had one on the lord and warped right by me with a few pariahs, did not stand a chance...

Don't know how many people run Necrons tho

pariahs can't use the veil of Darkness as they arn't Necrons.

you got Cheated.

Nurglitch wrote:If we really want to even the score, we could suppose that 300pts of 30 Hormagaunts attack powered by Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs. That would mean 90 attacks, 52 hits, 39 wounds, 6 Terminator casualties. The Chaplain and the Sanguinary Priest cause their expected 4 Hormagaunt casualties, and then thanks to the presence of the Chaplain automatically suffer 2 No Retreat saves for no real difference, and face 26 angry Hormagaunts in the next combat phase.

Is it possible for all 30 models to get into attack range? Hmm...

Well, it seems very difficult to actually accomplish; assuming that you are working with one termaguant squad. 2 squads of 20 would be better suited to the job, and could definitely wipe a 5-man + Character termie squad. It is a more significant investment, but the flexibility you get out of it, will be well worth the points.

20 minutes in Vassal and you'll find much the same results. You can clump up and just try to avoid templates, but that seems incredibly risky, as it basically benefits the SM more than a Tyranid. Clumping can be one of the best ways to lose a game, when you are playing with a swarm army.

Hey, speaking of brute force, you know what would be almost equivalent to that unit of Terminators? A brood of three Carnifexen.

If the Carnifex got the charge, then we'd see something more like 4 attacks from the Sanguinary Priest and the Chaplain, 3 hits, and 0.5 wounds on a Carnifex.

Then the Carnifexen would attack because they had the charge and therefore I3.

If they were all 15 attacks on the Assault Terminators, then it would be 11 hits, 9 wounds, and 3 Terminator casualties. Call this A.

If they were 10 attacks on the Assault Terminator and 5 on the Sanguinary Priest, then 8 hits on the Terminators and 3 on the Sanguinary Priest. There should be 2 Terminator casualties, and the Sanguinary Priest should take 1-2 wounds (or 1.67). Call this B.

In situation A the three remaining Terminators would have 6 attacks, 4 hits, 3 wounds, no Tyranid casualties. The combat should tie, and there's three Carnifexen vs three Assault Terminators, a Sanguinary Priest, and a Chaplain.

In situation B the four remaining Terminators would have 8 attacks, 5 hits, 4 wounds, 1 Carnifex casualty. The Space Marines should win by one, leaving a No Retreat wound the Fearless Carnifex will likely save, and there's two Carnifexen vs four Assault Terminators, and a Chaplain left for round 2.

Round 2: Fight!

In situation A the Sanguinary Priest and the Chaplain likely do nothing with their Power Weapons, and there's 12 Carnifex attacks traded with 6 Thunder Hammer attacks. The Carnifexen have 9 hits, 7 wounds, 2 more Terminator casualties. The Thunder Hammers get 4 hits, 3 wounds, for 1 Carnifex Casualty. The Terminators win by one, and next round two Carnifexen will face an Assault Terminator with a Chaplain and a Sanguinary Priest.

In situation B the Chaplain likely does nothing, and 8 Carnifex attacks trade with 8 Thunder Hammer attacks. The Carnifexen have 6 hits, 5 wounds, 1 Terminator casualty. The Terminators have 5 hits, 4 wounds, and another Carnifex is beaten into paste. The Carnifex loses 3:1 or by 2. Next round will be one Carnifex vs three Assault Terminators and a Chaplain.

While the B situation ends up with the Carnifexen getting mulched, they do score a victory point in the form of the Sanguinary Priest and deprive the Blood Angels nearby of his Chalice effects. However, the A situation shows the utility of going after the dangerous part of the unit and then mopping up the useless parts at leisure.

Something interested to point out is that since Carnifexen are I1 anyways, the I1 effect of being hit by a Thunder Hammer is irrelevant.

Even better would be to give them Adrenals, that way they get to strike at the same time as any pesky Claw Termies!

Grey Templar wrote:pariahs can't use the veil of Darkness as they arn't Necrons.

you got Cheated.

Can pariahs use the monolith's teleport?

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:pariahs can't use the veil of Darkness as they arn't Necrons.

you got Cheated.

Can pariahs use the monolith's teleport?

No they cannot. They don't have the "Necron" special rule.

Gwar!:

No, the Adrenal Glands wouldn't lend the Carnifex an advantage. Take the brood and throw it into combat with the same squad of Assault Terminators but armed with Lightening Claws.

Besides the attacks by the Sanguinary Priest and the Chaplain, you'd see 15 attacks by the Terminators, which should result in 10 hits, and 3 wounds. Then the Carnifex get their 15 attacks, 11 hits, 9 wounds, and therefore reasonably 6 Terminator casualties. The Carnifex win by 3 and there's unlikely no wounds from the automatic No Retreat (thanks, Chaplain!).

That extra 15pts spent on Adrenal Glands might add a little extra certainty (which is why I have them on my brood), but in this case it would mean that the Carnifexen outweigh the Terminators and company by 40pts, or another Terminator.

So a better comparison would be three Carnifexen vs seven Assault Terminator and one Sanguinary Priest and one Chaplain; the Carnifexen have Adrenal Glands, the Assault Terminators have Lightening Claws. That would mean the six expected casualties on the Terminators, but 18 attacks from the Terminators, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 1 Carnifex casualty.

Aha, that is a shame!........



























..........Why would anyone use pariahs?

Can carnifexen use the monolith teleport?

How about 255 points of Genestealers with Toxin Sacs - its 15 of them.

45 attacks on the charge striking first, hitting on 3's = 30 hit.
15 wound with 2 of these rending. Toxin sacs rerolls fails to wound for 7 more wounds with another rending.

One Termie dies due to rending.
One-two Termies die due to regular wounds.


For a fully tricked out unit of 5 Termies + Priest +Chaplain = this units probably breaks 400 points.

A maxed out unit of 20 Genestealers with a Broodlord, all with toxins sacks comes in at 388 points (I gave the Lord scything talons).

62 attacks on the charge hitting on 3's = 42 hit

21 wound, 3 of which rend
10 more wounds from re-rolling, including another rending wound
this leaves 27 regular wounds for 2 unsaved wounds plus one dead from the rending wounds

The Broodlord then Hypnotizes the lowest LD model left standing preventing their attacks and when the Termie unit attacks back absorbs one of the non-thunderhammer wounds, saving a model from being removed.

Nurglitch wrote:Lots of stuff about hormagaunts

That's a great idea in a vacuum, but you're forgetting something.

He has an ARMY, and if he lets you just keep doing that then you never had anything to fear from those terminators in the first place. A thunderfire cannon, a couple tac squads with bolters and that hormagaunt unit gets thinned out really quickly. Then of course he just charges them in his turn with the terminators to finish them off and gain ground.

Nice idea in a vacuum, but not in reality.

hmmm for those Space Marine players who can stomach taking a Chapter Master:

Orbital Bombardment, if it's on target it should take out some of the Terminators with its AP of 1.
Then a Vindicator barrage with Str 10, AP 1.

And if THAT doesn't take out a 5 man team of Terminators and a priest I'm out of SM ideas

Vindicators are AP2

Why are the Assault Terminators bunching up for Orbital Bombardments and Vindis?

Corennus wrote:hmmm for those Space Marine players who can stomach taking a Chapter Master:

Orbital Bombardment, if it's on target it should take out some of the Terminators with its AP of 1.
Then a Vindicator barrage with Str 10, AP 1.

And if THAT doesn't take out a 5 man team of Terminators and a priest I'm out of SM ideas

Even against non-TH terminators that are perfectly bunched up, if you get a direct hit, statistically 1/3 of them are still going to make invulnerable saves. In a more realistic situation where they are using coherency, and you have a good chance to scatter, it's not going to do that much damage.

Yeah I guess. I was just trying to think of some things that would hurt a Term squad without having to get close to them with power armour..

bikes would tear them up... a biker squad with 2x plasma guns and a multimelta, plus a librarian will null zone attached on a bike.

This will eat terminators for lunch... especially since you can fire 3 low ap shots per turn from range, and once you get the terminators down to 2-3 bodies left in the squad, you can charge in to 6", and rapid fire those plasma guns.

its still not enough forced Invulns to make 3++ worried.

with null zone it should do fine. I'm thinking about a 5 man squad + priest.

if its a 10 man squad, then fine, throw a second bike squad at the problem. still should be fine.

the biker command squad actually would be a good counter as well, if you load it up with plasma death.

kaiservonhugal wrote:How about 255 points of Genestealers with Toxin Sacs - its 15 of them.

45 attacks on the charge striking first, hitting on 3's = 30 hit.
15 wound with 2 of these rending. Toxin sacs rerolls fails to wound for 7 more wounds with another rending.

One Termie dies due to rending.
One-two Termies die due to regular wounds.


For a fully tricked out unit of 5 Termies + Priest +Chaplain = this units probably breaks 400 points.

A maxed out unit of 20 Genestealers with a Broodlord, all with toxins sacks comes in at 388 points (I gave the Lord scything talons).

62 attacks on the charge hitting on 3's = 42 hit

21 wound, 3 of which rend
10 more wounds from re-rolling, including another rending wound
this leaves 27 regular wounds for 2 unsaved wounds plus one dead from the rending wounds

The Broodlord then Hypnotizes the lowest LD model left standing preventing their attacks and when the Termie unit attacks back absorbs one of the non-thunderhammer wounds, saving a model from being removed.

The Termie squad with Chaplin and Priest both in Termie Armour is 425 compaired to 388, Not too much of a point difference to say a cheaper unit beats expensive unit.

As with most things it requires the Steelers to get there and have taken no losses. It is easier for the Termies to walk accross the board and take no loses compared to the steelers.

3++ forced to re-roll would be worried, but would come out on top against the bikes.

Meh, I either hit more than three with a vindicator, or they are strung out, and make alot of difficult terrain tests, so I get another turn or two to shoot. If they roll poorly. Null zone makes all the difference.

well, yes. if you add nullzone they crumple real fast.

Null Zone and Demolisher Cannon large blast.

I think we all totally forgot about Null Zone. However, a 3++ save, when re-rolled, may still pass. The answer I like the best is to snipe that priest somehow, then you can deal with the terminators like you would any other TH/SS terms.

One vindicare assassin, and one full PAGK squad with incinerators. done deal.

They still get armour saves against the incinerators....

True, but at range you can get min of three hits, more at the right angle

Spellbound:

Attrition is the reason that the original example cited 20 Hormagaunts, although with an 18" charge radius they may not have to take much in the way of casualties prior to the charge.

After all, the important thing is that the Assault Terminators with a Sanguinary Priest and a Chaplain define their accompanying army in several ways.

Firstly they use up all the Elite slots and mean that there's only two other Sanguinary Priest wandering around. Secondly they take up nearly 600pts. Charging them with 200pts worth of Hormagaunts does factor in attrition and how much of the Tyranid army will be engaging the Blood Angel army. In a 2000pt game, for example, 9/10s of the Tyranids would be engaging 7/10s of the Blood Angels while the Hormagaunts winnow the Terminators. Thirdly, they're going to be in a Land Raider which will suck up another 200+ points from the army.

Sanguinary priests may be purchased up to 3 per elite slot. You can have 9 in a BA army if you so choose.

willydstyle wrote:Sanguinary priests may be purchased up to 3 per elite slot. You can have 9 in a BA army if you so choose.

True, but I believe Nuglitch's point was that termies and chaplains are also elites. If you want a termie squad with a chaplain you can have at most 3 sang priests.

DaveL wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Sanguinary priests may be purchased up to 3 per elite slot. You can have 9 in a BA army if you so choose.

True, but I believe Nuglitch's point was that termies and chaplains are also elites. If you want a termie squad with a chaplain you can have at most 3 sang priests.

That's why no-one ever takes a chaplain, you take the Rechlusiarch.

Gwar! wrote:

DaveL wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Sanguinary priests may be purchased up to 3 per elite slot. You can have 9 in a BA army if you so choose.

True, but I believe Nuglitch's point was that termies and chaplains are also elites. If you want a termie squad with a chaplain you can have at most 3 sang priests.

That's why no-one ever takes a chaplain, you take the Rechlusiarch.

QFT.

+1 BS, +1 A, +1 wound is nice.

Though only thing I don't like is the added expense... though that's the nature of the death star....

30 points is hardly an added expense!

In response to the OP:

I recently obliterated an Blood Angel assault terminator squad of 7 models (their priest stayed in the Land Raider, giving his 6" buff) using my assault orientated Nob Squad of 10 models.

I got the charge - his lightning claws inflicted a few wounds (some were saved by my 5+ inv save from cybork) which were dealt with by wound allocation. My big choppas killed a terminator, then all the thunder hammers and claws were resolved. His TH killed one ork, my 5 claws (20 attacks) killed 5 terminators - the remaining 1 ran away.

One thing people need to remember is that FNP is not going to have any effect against lots of power weapons - then you only have to deal with the termies inv save, and this can be overcome by sheer weight of power weapons.

Personally I feel my Nobs are more powerful in CC than even assault terminators - and to date this has been the case.

shokk'n'ork wrote:In response to the OP:

I recently obliterated an Blood Angel assault terminator squad of 7 models (their priest stayed in the Land Raider, giving his 6" buff) using my assault orientated Nob Squad of 10 models.

I got the charge - his lightning claws inflicted a few wounds (some were saved by my 5+ inv save from cybork) which were dealt with by wound allocation. My big choppas killed a terminator, then all the thunder hammers and claws were resolved. His TH killed one ork, my 5 claws (20 attacks) killed 5 terminators - the remaining 1 ran away.

One thing people need to remember is that FNP is not going to have any effect against lots of power weapons - then you only have to deal with the termies inv save, and this can be overcome by sheer weight of power weapons.

Personally I feel my Nobs are more powerful in CC than even assault terminators - and to date this has been the case.

His squad of 7 + priest is worth say 300+ points. Your squad of 10 with cybork + 5 pks + a couple of big choppas already cost almost 400 points.

His thunderhammers killed only 1 Nob at 5+ invul save - you were lucky.
20 Power Klaws should statstically hit 50% of the time, and cause about 8 wounds. He should save about 5-6 wounds. You killed 5 - You were lucky.

How is that worth relying on?

Nobs are not great way to combat BA termies. They are WS5 with a WB, but have no access to low strength, cost effective power weapons. Big choppas are a great compromise, but they will absolutely suck against BA termies... flatly, they won't do anything of significance.

You are dealing with a 2+/3++, with a 4+ FNP to boot. The quickest point from A to B, is going to involve cheap, low strength power weapons, which you cannot get with Nobs. Burnas are an interesting choice, but for Orks overall, I would recommend ignoring and/or tarpitting the BA termies with cheap units; NOT Ork deathstar squads.

Null zone is as direct a counter possible, to a 3++ save. All units benefit from it, and BA termies are not going to be the ones doing the shooting.

Chaplain with Terminator Squad armed with LC.

Rerolled failed rolls to hit and rerolled failed rolls to wound.

When in doubt agaisnt Terminators, send Terminators!

Helps also if you have a second HQ choice (Librarian) casting Null Zone

Throw fits and cry about it until your opponent shakes his head and decides not to use them anymore due to your incessant crying/tantrum.

....thats what I do.