Bigred wrote:The Night Spinner rules are out via the latest White Dwarf. Here's what the Eldar are getting:

Night Spinner

72" S:6 AP: - Large Blast, Barrage, Rending, Twin-Linked, too!
Any units hit moves as in difficult and dangerous terrain during their next turn.
BS:3
12/12/10 Fast, Skimmer, Tank
Linked Shuriken Catapult

Standard Eldar vehicle upgrades apply.
NOT a transport.
Costs the same as a Fire Prism

From the BoLS Lounge.

Any red text is an edit in by me.

The big gun is Twin-Linked too.

Aduro wrote:The big gun is Twin-Linked too.

That'll be nasty if they pop open one of my Sisters' rhinos...

Rather nasty against `Nids too.

Could even spring for AP6?

someone a week ago posted that the upcoming white dwarf would have word of the inquisition codices being posted on the GW website in downloadable form, ala the old blood angel codex. any mention of the various *fill in scum*hunters online?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Could even spring for AP6?

IS it AP6? I've not heard that.


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Warboss: Yes.

Not what I was saying.

I'm saying that it's odd they gave it AP-. I mean, AP6 ain't much, but it's something.

both =I= books? if so, they won't be updated for a while... sigh...

Well I'm going to ask a question here. According to the rule of rending Any rolls of 6 with a rending weapon automatically causes a wound, regardless of the target toughness and counts as ap2. Against vehicles, an armour penetration roll of 6 allows to a further D3 to be rolled. So if you pen a vehicle (due to a rend) does it count as AP2 or AP- when rolling for the damage result?

Grey Knights will probably be done within the next six months. We got a LOT of rumors for it, more than we did for Dark Eldar.

But this thread isn't about that.

Sisters are in PA, so they'll be OK for the most part.

Just like in 2E, all you really got to do is make your Armor Save.

Now Orks & Guard, well, it'll be messy...

Necrosis wrote:[snip]
Against vehicles, an armour penetration roll of 6 allows to a further D3 to be rolled. So if you pen a vehicle (due to a rend) does it count as AP2 or AP- when rolling for the damage result?

You answered your own question.


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JohnHwangDD wrote:Sisters are in PA, so they'll be OK for the most part.

Just like in 2E, all you really got to do is make your Armor Save.

Now Orks & Guard, well, it'll be messy...

Rending says otherwise. A Large Blast Rending is nasty, especially since it's strength 6... thus instant death to Canonesses.

It doesn't look much, and it costs the same as a fire prism? Talk about a wasted effort I don't think anyone is gonna bring one save for some kind of unique theme. I think if costed less it would be worth taking but you might as well go with the prism. Just my opinion though.

So it would count as AP - meaning they would have a -1 to the damage roll.

I believe so, yes. Unless it says that it counts as AP2 on vehicles when you get Rending.... which I don't think it does.

@Melissa: Rend is only on a 6, not automatic.

Penetrating and glancing hits inflicted by a weapon shown as 'Ap-' suffer a modifier of -1. It says shown as which confuses me, also one could argue vs vehicles you don't count as ap 2 due to the way the two sentences are worded.

Eh, I still find it rather powerful. Never said that it was OP mind you (it's tame compared to the LRBT).

I guess it will be useful vs horde armies, but I agree with Luthon1234 in that I'd spring for a fireprism first.

Man, that thing will be nasty if it penetrates one of my Dark Eldar Raiders...

And it causes instant death to my Archon too!

Ouch!

Bah, I forgot to check if you could take Squadrons of them.

looks like my boys are going to need to find some heavy cover to avoid that things direct fire

All the above is accurate, however the 'Difficult/Dangerous' thing remains until the next time the unit moves, not just the next movement phase. Which is pretty nice, no?

Making a large unit of boyz move as difficult / dangerous would be horrific...as murderous hurricane shows.

For the costs "barrage" is great, as you can hide it away and pound away, using it to ignore any intervening cover - so you have to be in terrain or KFF range. lovely. The rending just adds a nice spice to it

Mmm it made me wee a little.






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They always use the same chassis. Annoying. Every vehicle should look different darn it.

OoieGoie wrote:They always use the same chassis. Annoying. Every vehicle should look different darn it.

Yeah, just like Imperial Guard, Space Marines, and Tau, amirite?

They always use the same chassis. Annoying. Every vehicle should look different darn it.

Funny you should say that, as it IS a different chassis from the existing kits:

Nice rules combined with a nice model. Two packs pulease!

Greets
Schepp himself

P.S. The driver of the night spinner should close his hatch properly, though...

@SlaveToDorkness - how is that a different chassis?

If you mean the panel on the lower left that's an add-on to the standard falcon chassis...

I did not notice that they had redone the chassis, I bet it comes in less sprues now.

Yes, one that doesn't come with the Falcon or the Serpent. It is different.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

They always use the same chassis. Annoying. Every vehicle should look different darn it.

Funny you should say that, as it IS a different chassis from the existing kits:

<images>

They're both the same chassis - the Fire Prism just has added doodads, such as vectored & star engines.

Compared to the Fire Prism I don't see this getting much use. It has 1 point higher strength, rending, and the terrain rule. This is balanced out by not having an AP (compared to AP 4 for the Fire Prism dispersal shot), not having the option to go S9,AP2. 1 lower Ballistic Skill (but is twin linked). There are enough other anti-horde items in the army that this doesn't really fill a niche and the loss of the option to be effective vs. vehicles is significant. The one saving grace will be if the rules truely are any unit HIT gets has to deal with the difficult terrain as opposed to if it any unit that takes a wound or suffers a casualty.

Realistically if you don't like the tank's profile right now, wait until the new edition comes out. It will have been put through its paces and new rules may appear in the codex.

Just worth mentioning. Not often GW puts out rules after the books, these days. And probably one of the policies I like least.

Remember that this is a barrage weapon and if fired as such you are using the vehicles side armor for penetration. Suddenly it's not so bad. Especially against chimeras. Having rending is nice...and better than what it was. I still wish it got the bigger blast marker like it did in the FW rules for it. The loss of transport capability is a little disappointing, but meh...I can live with that.

Yeah I'm lookin hard, and the only difference I see is the little panel. (besides the turret obviously, but that doesn't count as part of the chassis)

Luthon1234 wrote:It doesn't look much, and it costs the same as a fire prism? Talk about a wasted effort I don't think anyone is gonna bring one save for some kind of unique theme. I think if costed less it would be worth taking but you might as well go with the prism. Just my opinion though.

Absolutely correct. I’m not really sure what’s going on in the GW game development studio but they just handed the Eldar community a polished turd. It’s nice that we got a new tank – and I certainly have hope that the rules in the next codex will be revised into something useful but, in the meantime, a polished turd is still a turd.

Why would I take a S6 AP – rending ordinance template when I can take a S5 AP4 ordinance template that can be switched to a S9 AP2 blast template for the same price? Factor in the fact that I can link other prisms to make the S5 AP4 template S6 AP3 or even S7 AP2 and the Night Spinner just looks silly in comparison.

GW’s at bat. Here’s the pitch. Swing and a miss!

They're both the same chassis - the Fire Prism just has added doodads, such as vectored & star engines.

This is correct. I already built the Black Box Night Spinner for one of my local GW stores. The chassis extensions and feathering in the engine nozzles are add-on parts. This new kit as one might expect comprises existing Falcon chassis sprues with a new sprue containing all the new Night Spinner and Fire Prism parts. There's also a small clear plastic sprue for the crystals and canopies.

Of course a simple look at this new kit on the GW website clearly shows this for anyone industrious enough to venture somewhere on the Internet beyond this forum.

Oh this thing is gonna rock hard. Yeah, it'll eat up hordes... But it will also completely mess with jump pack armies and bikes... It's fast and twin linked so it will be moving and shooting and rerolling scatter? I think valkyries just got the shaft as well.

This thing is just filled with possibilities...damn.

ender502

are you kidding? i'd love for my tau to have a vehicle like this that can actually slow (and hurt) people down before they get to my lines. if my hammerhead had a "whoa, doggy!" fire option like this i'd actually use the two i have.

warboss wrote:are you kidding? i'd love for my tau to have a vehicle like this that can actually slow (and hurt) people down before they get to my lines. if my hammerhead had a "whoa, doggy!" fire option like this i'd actually use the two i have.

Agreed this is cooler than pinning.

It's friggin' nasty... counts as dangerous terrain AND it's rending is just mean to footslogging troops, and any mechanized troops that get their transports popped. They get torn apart by an S6 rending attack, and then they have to deal with dangerous terrain and they move slower anyway the next turn. Great...

Acardia wrote:

warboss wrote:are you kidding? i'd love for my tau to have a vehicle like this that can actually slow (and hurt) people down before they get to my lines. if my hammerhead had a "whoa, doggy!" fire option like this i'd actually use the two i have.

Agreed this is cooler than JUST pinning.

i corrected your post.

if i'm reading it right, it doesn't lose the barrage pinning check ability. so, it is possible to force a morale check for casualties at 25%, another for pinning with one casualty, and then dangerous terrain in the target's next movement just for hitting all with one twin linked large blast weapon...

I think this is a brilliant unit, it's not going to kill lots but it will disrupt the enemy, and by slowing their mobility its increasing yours.

Against Infantry, they're hit by High S, so a lot will take wounds, and just be numbers hit they'll die, factor in they'll now move slower/have a 1 in 6 chance of failing a dangerous check thats not bad.

But against vehicles even better IMHO! firstly who doesn't like the posibility of imobilising vehicles? I've found against heavy mech like gurad if you can immobilise them theyre then funneled around them and terrain meaning theyre less mobile and have greater difficulty bringing weapons to bear. Added to this, for the first time partials will be usefull,

a partial shot will be S3, + 6 + D3 gives you max of 12, so transports are in trouble. not always but if they're bunched up it'll help.

I'll be very intrigued to try these out

I think this is a brilliant unit, it's not going to kill lots but it will disrupt the enemy, and by slowing their mobility its increasing yours.

Against Infantry, they're hit by High S, so a lot will take wounds, and just be numbers hit they'll die, factor in they'll now move slower/have a 1 in 6 chance of failing a dangerous check thats not bad.

But against vehicles even better IMHO! firstly who doesn't like the posibility of imobilising vehicles? I've found against heavy mech like gurad if you can immobilise them theyre then funneled around them and terrain meaning theyre less mobile and have greater difficulty bringing weapons to bear. Added to this, for the first time partials will be usefull,

a partial shot will be S3, + 6 + D3 gives you max of 12, so transports are in trouble. not always but if they're bunched up it'll help.

I'll be very intrigued to try these out

In a fully mech'd list I think you will see lots of dual prism + night spinner combo's instead of 3 prisms.

Looks very snazzy. Shame you can't use in tournaments though :(

You should be able to, it's released for Codex: Eldar, by GW. If tourney organizers won't let ya use it, they're crappy tourney organizers IMO.

Archonate wrote:Yeah I'm lookin hard, and the only difference I see is the little panel. (besides the turret obviously, but that doesn't count as part of the chassis)

Look at the engines - new bitz there, too!

Kurgash wrote:Looks very snazzy. Shame you can't use in tournaments though :(

It actually says "official rules" on the article.

I know that it's official but one of the rule lawyer tourny organizers said that if it isn't in the codex it can't be used. That might just mean for our store so hopefully the rest of you are spared the indecency.

Kurgash wrote:I know that it's official but one of the rule lawyer tourny organizers said that if it isn't in the codex it can't be used. That might just mean for our store so hopefully the rest of you are spared the indecency.

And you play there because?

Sounds like a douche...

So you can't use your legal, official GW rules?

I agree, that is kinda douchey.




[edit: for some reason my edits aren't going through in this thread...]

Great group of people, one turd in the pool though.

Any word on if they can be bought in squadrons? If so, the 115 point cost isn't so bad compared to being able to field say 3 spinners in addition to 2 prisms. Sure that's over a 1/3 of your points in a 1500 game, but not too shabby for the 2k games frequently played in my area...

Speaking from the perspective of a Guard player, I'd say it's better to purchase in squadrons of two rather than three... you get the benefits of a squadron while minimizing the risk (IE only the first immobilize destroys, not the first two).

As an aside, weren't Kroot Mercenaries "Official Rules" Chapter Approved?

ugh, 3 kits here I come.

By the way...

I think this will be nastier than I thought against mech armies... after all the way it's worded, it also effects Vehicles-- makes them take dangerous/difficult terrain checks...

Agreed!

It IS officially, as stated by GW!

Some people...

Next version of spearhead...Brass Skorpions. C'mon Skorpionsssss!

Dare to dream?

Live in hope, die in vain?

Er, yes?

Kurgash wrote:Next version of spearhead...Brass Skorpions. C'mon Skorpionsssss!

If GW/FW pull another Trygon/Piranha/Skyray on me, I'll be pissed.

So - if a mob of 30 boys gets hit by the nighspinner - next turn they move - do all 30 take dangerous or just the ones who didnt fail to be wounded?....

imagine hitting 3 squads of boyz clumped together. Eww.


I think i may buy a ton of these just to make Turrets for my wave serpents. Sell the Bits on Ebay that i dont use to make up the cost.

It says any "unit", which is the entire squad.

Melissia wrote:Speaking from the perspective of a Guard player, I'd say it's better to purchase in squadrons of two rather than three... you get the benefits of a squadron while minimizing the risk (IE only the first immobilize destroys, not the first two).

If the two immobilise results are the result of one unit shooting at you, then as all damage is resolved simultaneously you WOULD have both models destroyed.

It's an excellent disruption unit, and it might give some indication into how GW will change the Eldar in the future. Instead of adding more movement enchancing rules, they'll give Eldar additional abilities for distrupting enemy movement instead.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Speaking from the perspective of a Guard player, I'd say it's better to purchase in squadrons of two rather than three... you get the benefits of a squadron while minimizing the risk (IE only the first immobilize destroys, not the first two).

If the two immobilise results are the result of one unit shooting at you, then as all damage is resolved simultaneously you WOULD have both models destroyed.

Only if each immobilize occurred in the same phase. If it occurs in different phases, then no.

I agree, i hope this is the way they are going to change the Eldar. It would be great to stop Tanks in their tracks, slow assaulty units, stun units while other eldar clean up house.

I don't get people saying this thing sucks...


... it has good strength, it's large blast, it's not ordnance (IE the vehicle can move and fire), it pins (from barrage, IIRC), it's rending, it's twin-linked, it does damage in the enemy turn AFTER the shot is fired if the enemy wants or has to move, and its special ability works on vehicles as well as infantry. It always hits side armor, and cover is determined from the middle of the blast... it's a friggin' nightmare of a unit.

I agree with melissia, it is going to be nightmarish.

Any word of these can be taken in squads yet?

No, these are vehicle only. There is a spinner type weapon you can have as a Heavy Support artillery unit, but not like this.

That's not what they asked

Oh, did he mean squadrons? Took me a minute to figure out what you meant, M.

Yeah, that's what he meant. Were they single vehicles, or in squadrons?

Well that's a different question. I don't have WD, so I can't answer that. I'd guess no.

edit:erk! 2 more to 1000

Sorry! I did mean Squadrons! I must have just cut that last bit off!

Melissia wrote:I don't get people saying this thing sucks...


... it has good strength, it's large blast, it's not ordnance (IE the vehicle can move and fire), it pins (from barrage, IIRC), it's rending, it's twin-linked, it does damage in the enemy turn AFTER the shot is fired if the enemy wants or has to move, and its special ability works on vehicles as well as infantry. It always hits side armor, and cover is determined from the middle of the blast... it's a friggin' nightmare of a unit.

ordnance in 5th can move and fire just like other weapons... you just can't fire another weapon on the same vehicle if you fire ordnance barring a special rule like the leman russ gets.

Ordnance Barrage must be fired while stationary (I think anyway... I don't have my book with me...). But the Night Spinner is Heavy Barrage.

I don't have to deal with either rule on a regular basis, so eh... I defer to you.

Fun Tank for fluff and casual play but in competetive play it goes up against a Prism for the same points. When compared with a Prism there really is no comparison and because it's a heavy choice it really won't see much use over Falcons and Prisms.

Lemartes wrote:Fun Tank for fluff and casual play but in competetive play it goes up against a Prism for the same points. When compared with a Prism there really is no comparison and because it's a heavy choice it really won't see much use over Falcons and Prisms.

You state this without justification. Allow me to reiterate my argument from before:

... it has good strength, it's large blast, it moves 12" and fires, it pins (from barrage, IIRC), it's rending, it's twin-linked, it does damage in the enemy turn AFTER the shot is fired if the enemy wants or has to move, and its special ability works on vehicles as well as infantry. It always hits side armor, and cover is determined from the middle of the blast... it's a friggin' nightmare of a unit.

This is going to be a royal pain in the ass to deal with.

This guy is gonna be a great big middle finger to the stubborn commissar blob, and might be an annoyance to jump troops, but I don't see a dangerous terrain test being more effective than a S9 BS4 blast on a vehicle. Even on a landraider the focused beam from a prism is going to have twice the chance of affecting the tank than the test would.

That being said, this tank still has the same weakness the fire prism possesses. One or two cheapo las cannons shut the dang thing up for a turn, if not for the rest of the game.

@Melissia - Ordnance barrage weapons can be fired on the move (subject to normal restrictions) but the unit may not fire any other weapon on the turn it fires its ordnance (whether it moves or not). The Doomweaver is a normal barrage weapon anyway and this does not apply, but as you asked

@Everyone who asked... - This is a single vehicle, not available in squadrons.

FWIW there is an aquila stamp in the top corner of the page with 'Official' written on it. Make of that what you will...

Oh, and I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet but the range is 12"-72" so don't let the enemy get close

Chimera_Calvin wrote:@Melissia - Ordnance barrage weapons can be fired on the move (subject to normal restrictions) but the unit may not fire any other weapon on the turn it fires its ordnance (whether it moves or not). The Doomweaver is a normal barrage weapon anyway and this does not apply, but as you asked

@Everyone who asked... - This is a single vehicle, not available in squadrons.

FWIW there is an aquila stamp in the top corner of the page with 'Official' written on it. Make of that what you will...

Oh, and I don't know if anyone mentioned this yet but the range is 12"-72" so don't let the enemy get close

It clearly tells you on PG.58 that Ordnance Barrage weapons may only fire if the vehicle was stationary, the gun crew must concentrate on getting the co-ordinates right before firing. However, you are probably thinking of firing the gun directly, where it is treated as a regular ordnance weapon.

Anyhoo, the nightspinner is a Barrage/ Large blast, not Ordnance barrage, so it can be fired on the move.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:@Melissia - Ordnance barrage weapons can be fired on the move...

No, a vehicle must remain stationary to fire an Ordinance Barrage indirectly. BRB pg 58.

Regular Barrage weapons are fair game though.

Sorry, mixing up my Ordnance and Ordnace Barrage rules there, that's what you get for posting half distracted on a thursday morning...

Melissia wrote:

Lemartes wrote:Fun Tank for fluff and casual play but in competetive play it goes up against a Prism for the same points. When compared with a Prism there really is no comparison and because it's a heavy choice it really won't see much use over Falcons and Prisms.

You state this without justification. Allow me to reiterate my argument from before:

... it has good strength, it's large blast, it moves 12" and fires, it pins (from barrage, IIRC), it's rending, it's twin-linked, it does damage in the enemy turn AFTER the shot is fired if the enemy wants or has to move, and its special ability works on vehicles as well as infantry. It always hits side armor, and cover is determined from the middle of the blast... it's a friggin' nightmare of a unit.

This is going to be a royal pain in the ass to deal with.

Lemates is correct, it’s not that good and after a couple games, I think most Eldar players will relegate it to the shelf in favor of other options.

The biggest reason it suffers is because of the current mechanized meta game. The vehicle lacks reliable AV cracking capability and that’s its main issue.

But, here’s a simple analysis compared to the Fire Prism in its intended roll – infantry killer.

Let say the Night Spinner hits, on average, 7 models with its twin linked pie plate compared to 5 for the Fire Prism which isn’t twin linked when firing unlinked.

Vs. MEQ:
NS = 7 hits = 1.166 rending wounds + 4.666 normal wounds = 1.166 + 1.555 failed saves = 2.721 dead MEQ’s (42.263 points per kill) + they have to make a pin test and move through dangerous terrain next turn.
FP = 5 hits = 3.333 wounds = 1.111 failed saves = 1.111 dead MEQ’s (103.51 points per kill)

Clearly the Nightspinner is more efficient but, in all honesty 3 dead MEQ’s compared to 1… not REALLY that significant a tabletop impact.

Now, let’s double the number of NS on the table and the number of Fire Prisms on the table because that’s an extremely important consideration given the prisims linking capacity. The shots become twin linked for the prism so we’ll up the hits to 7 but one NS gets 7 hits and the other gets 6 because of removed casualties.

NS = 13 hits = 2.166 rending wounds + 8.666 normal wounds = 2.166 + 2.888 failed saves = 5.054 dead MEQ’s (45.508 points per kill) + the good stuff
FP = 7 hits = 5.833 wounds = 5.833 failed saves = 5.833 dead MEQ’s (39.43 points per kill)

From a purely killing perspective 1 NS outperforms the Fire Prism against MEQ but 2 fireprisms outperform 2 NS – add to that the ability of the fire prisms to small blast MC’s and vehicles and the prism starts to look a lot more worthwhile.

Now – let’s look at things from the eyes of some tightly packed Boyz
Let’s give the pie plates 10 hits – which is a bit much but lets say we’re facing green tide and there’s no choice but to pack things tight.

NS = 10 hits = 1.666 rending wounds + 6.666 wounds = 1.666 + 5.555 failed saves = 7.221 dead boyz + the good stuff
FP = 10 hits = 6.666 wounds = 6.666 failed saves = 6.666 dead boyz
NS > FP by a narrow margin and, at 6 points per Boy, the margin is very narrow indeed… but the 23 remaining boys WILL be moving through dangerous terrain so that may buy a bunch more wounds.
Things would stay pretty much the same if you added a second fire prism.

So, the Night Spinner is a more efficient infantry killer than the Fire Prism. {sarcasm}I know, as an Eldar player, between Bladestorming Dire Avengers, Dual flamer Guardians + Destructor Warlocks, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders, and Scatter Laser War Walkers I struggle furiously with the ability to kill infantry so, give the options available to me, this JUST might be the solution I’ve been desperate for all this time.{/sarcasm}

@incarna - You've mentioned the economy of scale with multiple Fire Prisms giving you the capability of twin linking and increasing firepower or splitting fire, but the Night Spinner also has an economy of scale - just a more subtle one.

By being able to put multiple enemy units into difficult/dangerous terrain you will not only cause more casualties but also slow down multiple units. This can be used to great advantage to cause bottlenecks in an enemy advance. As an eldar player your greatest advantage is the fact that you will be more mobile than your opponent.

The Night Spinner's job is not to kill things (although it does kill infantry and light vehicles very well) but to act as a force multiplier for your superior mobility by reducing your opponents.

Against infantry heavy armies like Orks and especially Tyranids (maybe even Blood Angels), the Night Spinner is a superior choice. As with all things the final decision will depend on your local meta, but I don't think the choice is as cut-and-dry as it first appears.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:@incarna - You've mentioned the economy of scale with multiple Fire Prisms giving you the capability of twin linking and increasing firepower or splitting fire, but the Night Spinner also has an economy of scale - just a more subtle one.

By being able to put multiple enemy units into difficult/dangerous terrain you will not only cause more casualties but also slow down multiple units. This can be used to great advantage to cause bottlenecks in an enemy advance. As an eldar player your greatest advantage is the fact that you will be more mobile than your opponent.

The Night Spinner's job is not to kill things (although it does kill infantry and light vehicles very well) but to act as a force multiplier for your superior mobility by reducing your opponents.

Against infantry heavy armies like Orks and especially Tyranids (maybe even Blood Angels), the Night Spinner is a superior choice. As with all things the final decision will depend on your local meta, but I don't think the choice is as cut-and-dry as it first appears.

Don’t get me wrong – I’ll be taking the spinner for a test drive and magnetizing my fire prisms so they can swap weapons (who knows what future incarnations of the Eldar codex will mean) but, as an Eldar player, I don’t have a problem with unmounted infantry – ever. When I shake my codex infantry solutions sprinkle out like snowflakes and I’m left shoveling my sidewalk while I figure out which ones to incorporate into my army… I wasn’t exactly preying on the GW altar for one more.

incarna wrote:
Let say the Night Spinner hits, on average, 7 models with its twin linked pie plate compared to 5 for the Fire Prism which isn’t twin linked when firing unlinked.

Why are we saying that? Your entire maths is based off that initial assumption. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm not really familiar with the probabilities of scattering, but I am curious to know if that was just a loose assumption you proceeded to do precise maths with, or if it is based off probability.

I think the Melissa is right, the Nightspinner seems pretty good. Not everyone plays guard. This metagame people go on about may very well exist in strength in some gaming circles, but I know for a fact that it isn't the case everywhere.

farseerphil wrote:So - if a mob of 30 boys gets hit by the night spinner - next turn they move - do all 30 take dangerous or just the ones who didnt fail to be wounded?....

imagine hitting 3 squads of boyz clumped together. Eww.


I think i may buy a ton of these just to make Turrets for my wave serpents. Sell the Bits on Ebay that I dont use to make up the cost.

Melissia wrote:It says any "unit", which is the entire squad.

What is extra nice about this is you only need to hit a squad to have that effect, the weapon need not wound anyone. Dump the template clipping several units (by targeting a small target between them), twin linking away most of your scatter and you can force dangerous terrain tests on a LOT of opponents.
It's situational, but potentially horribly lethal.

Both my local eldar players love running 3 wraithlord lists, and playing Tau, I find them pretty easy to take out. Rangers in cover are a pita though.

I like this Nightspinner, I hope it encourages some diversity in the local meta.

While on the subject of the NS/FP, i am currently assembling my flgs' Preview copy of the kit. Standard Falcon chassis, the skirt/hull extensions are actually listed in the instruction manny as Vectored Engines: they are 4 pieces, fit overthe post thingies next to the actual engines, and can be left to move a bit if you so choose. The engine bits are listed as Star Engines which is nice. with a little modification and magnets, you could make these tremovable.
The tank itself is a beaut: the weapon bits could also be magnetized if you wanted. the only problem i have had with the kit is that when assembled, the whole tank is heavy towords the rear: when you put it on the flying base, it will lean back. WAY back. a minute of work with your pin vice, and right as rain.

What month's issue is this in btw? Is the Eldar Artillery rules changed in there?

NeoMaul wrote:

incarna wrote:
Let say the Night Spinner hits, on average, 7 models with its twin linked pie plate compared to 5 for the Fire Prism which isn’t twin linked when firing unlinked.

Why are we saying that? Your entire maths is based off that initial assumption. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm not really familiar with the probabilities of scattering, but I am curious to know if that was just a loose assumption you proceeded to do precise maths with, or if it is based off probability.

The number of actual models hit is irrelevant. The number 7 was an arbitrary number I picked to illustrate my point. The point/kill ratio is equally scalable across both units - sometimes the template will hit more, sometimes it'll hit less. I actually have a pretty complex equation for calculating models hit by a weapon that scatters if you’d like to see it but, like I said, it’s irrelevant.

You should figure the Twin-linked advantage in, when calculating 1 v 1.

I also agree with Orlanth that the possibility of clipping multiple infantry units with a single shot is a brutal one.

As Incarna noted, Eldar aren't typically short of anti-intantry guns, but I think this thing has potential.

My biggest worry is how tournaments will handle it. Right now, they normally list codices which are legal for use, and WD isn't a codex. The biggest concern as an organizer is everyone having access to the rules; and in a few months that'll be a problem, unless GW puts it on the website as a PDF.

This thing is supposed to beat out Fire Prisms and/or Falcons for my Heavy slots? Fire Prisms can already drop pie plates AND kill tanks. No, thanks.

Thanks for the mathhammer incarna, but completely omitting the special rule you actually buy the night spinner for is, let's say, somewhat biased.

Honestly, I have more problems with hordes of geqs closing into my squishy damage dealers. With the help of the spinner, I can reliably backing up and shoot the bastards down.

Greets
Schepp himself

You are fighting a losing battle Schepp. the Internet says it's not any good.

Schepp himself wrote:Thanks for the mathhammer incarna, but completely omitting the special rule you actually buy the night spinner for is, let's say, somewhat biased.

Honestly, I have more problems with hordes of geqs closing into my squishy damage dealers. With the help of the spinner, I can reliably backing up and shoot the bastards down.

Greets
Schepp himself

I don’t consider the Night Spinner’s special rule to be superior to the Fire Prism’s ability to threaten vehicles and link.

Your opponent counts as moving in difficult terrain which means, on average, you’re shaving ~2” off his 6” movement – not overly significant in my opinion. Yes – they ALSO count as moving through dangerous terrain so you have a 5.5% chance of killing a MEQ, 13.8% chance of killing an ork boy or gaunt, an 11.11% chance of killing a guardsmen, and an 8.33% chance of killing a Fire Warrior.

What’s more, in objective missions, I don’t need to slow the enemy down – I need to wipe scoring units off the board. In kill point missions, I don’t need to slow the enemy down – I need to wipe them off the board. There are far too many outflanking/deepstriking units out there for me to be concerned with slowing them down – being dead is better and a solution for every unit from the lowly Grot to the mighty Monolith whether it deepstrikes, outflanks, scouts, infiltrates, moves fast, or turbo boosts.

This is just my analysis. You’re free to use the unit and, as I said, I will be using the unit in hopes of utilizing it in a meaningful way, but I don’t expect any new revolutionary tactics to manifest with the Night Spinner as the linchpin.

I’m happy Eldar got a little love but I’m not going to praise GW for their LACK of comprehension of what is actually needed within the Eldar army list. I hope it sees improvement when it will undoubtedly be included in the next Eldar codex but currently, it’s simply not in the context of what the Eldar army could benefit from.

I like it. I think the range of the gun makes it better than most Eldar anti-infantry weapons. I also like the barrage capabilities which allow the tank to remain hissen/obscured while it fires. Unlike with the Fire Prism, the Spinner won't be denied shots by an enemy which is hidden.

In so many games the Eldar just need to slow the enemy down to wipe them off an objective or kill an entire unit. To many times the Warp Spiders or Dire Avengers just needed one more turn of shooting or they warp jumped just a few inches to short to be out of charge range of the enemy. To many of those Eldar units are great in the shooting pahse and their weakness is in assault.

I understand the numbers, but I don't live my life by them. Enemy units might have their movement reduced by 2" on average, but all it takes is one failed charge because of reduced movement to turn the tide of a game and gain victory. Without the CHANCE of it happening, it will never happen and that's all you can ask for in a good take all comers list, just a chance to win the game.

Incarna-

You make some very valid points... but you miss one VERY important one...Unlike just about every other army, Eldar units are not mean to work alone.

The ability to slow down enemy units...which makes them bait for multiple charges is phenomenal.

Even elite eldar hth units suffer against T4. A spinner that takes out 2 marines faithfully is insanely powerful in the context of softening it up for a charge.

Further, the only way the prisms get good is with multiple units... so a truely effective prism blast is coming from twice the points value of a normal prism.

If you would...please compare the effectiveness of 1,2 & 3 prism blasts vs. 1, 2 & 3 spinner blasts. There comes a point where the prism is vastly superior. But that point is some where between 2 & 3 prisms. And please recall that 1 prism is a waste of points..while 1 spinner is endlessly useful.

ender502

I'm sorry but I think anything that helps eldar direct and slow the enemy more would be helpfull. For an army based on its placement and skill I would think you guys would welcome a chance to slow down and disrupt your enemys plans.

All it takes is one unit at the front to slow an entire army. Oh your guys didnt roll high enough, guess your tanks are trapped at the back.

Plus that one squad no longer within assault or objective range will be a game winner a lot of times. Not to mention picking and choosing what Tyranids to make I1 in their next Assault.

Will it be legal for Ard Boyz?

It releases the weekend before the semi-final, and I'd love to have me one if possible.

I definately think the Night Spinner has it's uses, Versus Horde armies on a terrain filled board or vs jump/jet/bike/jetbike armies it would probably do very well solely on the special rule. I'd prob take 2 prisms and a spinner but getting me to fork out for one when I already have 3 prisms is another story ;D


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UsdiThunder wrote:Will it be legal for Ard Boyz?

It releases the weekend before the semi-final, and I'd love to have me one if possible.

Who knows on that one unless they specifically state it is.

Generally codexes aren't legal for tournaments until they have been out for a month, not sure about "chapter approved" style units.

incarna wrote:I don’t consider the Night Spinner’s special rule to be superior to the Fire Prism’s ability to threaten vehicles and link.

Your opponent counts as moving in difficult terrain which means, on average, you’re shaving ~2” off his 6” movement – not overly significant in my opinion. Yes – they ALSO count as moving through dangerous terrain so you have a 5.5% chance of killing a MEQ, 13.8% chance of killing an ork boy or gaunt, an 11.11% chance of killing a guardsmen, and an 8.33% chance of killing a Fire Warrior.

In addition to the other comments (such as how others have rightly pointed out that slowing a unit or two CAN often win you the game), you’re missing that Dangerous Terrain ignores armor saves. So that’s 1/6 of the models in the unit dead (excepting Invulnerables or multi-wound models) the next time they move. A not-insignificant bonus, especially when you consider the ability to clip multiple units with it.

I agree that you need to make sure your tankbusting is covered; particularly in the current vehicle-heavy environment. But one (maybe two, depending on your local meta) of these things will probably be well worthwhile.

gardeth wrote:Generally codexes aren't legal for tournaments until they have been out for a month, not sure about "chapter approved" style units.

Translation: "Oh God I hope it won't be out there killing all my little mean-space-elves and making them slow to boot!!"

This will be important in lots of Eldar armies, a very good choicto complement the 2 units of warwalkers you see in many lists.

Mannahnin wrote: you’re missing that Dangerous Terrain ignores armor saves.

Erm, does it?

Indeed

Dangerous terrain only allows invul saves and another big perk is if your opponent is stupid enough to use it's jump or jet packs they take 2 tests ;D

Jetbikes are f'ed. Forced to take 2 dangerous terrain tests no matter what they do unless they stay still the rest of the game.

incarna wrote:

NeoMaul wrote:

incarna wrote:
Let say the Night Spinner hits, on average, 7 models with its twin linked pie plate compared to 5 for the Fire Prism which isn’t twin linked when firing unlinked.

Why are we saying that? Your entire maths is based off that initial assumption. I'm not saying your wrong. I'm not really familiar with the probabilities of scattering, but I am curious to know if that was just a loose assumption you proceeded to do precise maths with, or if it is based off probability.

The number of actual models hit is irrelevant. The number 7 was an arbitrary number I picked to illustrate my point. The point/kill ratio is equally scalable across both units - sometimes the template will hit more, sometimes it'll hit less. I actually have a pretty complex equation for calculating models hit by a weapon that scatters if you’d like to see it but, like I said, it’s irrelevant.

I was referring to your assumption that the NS would hit 7 while the prism would hit 5. What are the probabilities for twin linked blast vs non twin linked?

BlueDagger wrote:Dangerous terrain only allows invul saves and another big perk is if your opponent is stupid enough to use it's jump or jet packs they take 2 tests ;D

Jetbikes are f'ed. Forced to take 2 dangerous terrain tests no matter what they do unless they stay still the rest of the game.

You can only ever take one Dangerous terrain test per model, per turn. (Somewhere in the rulebook)

BlueDagger wrote:Dangerous terrain only allows invul saves and another big perk is if your opponent is stupid enough to use it's jump or jet packs they take 2 tests ;D

Jetbikes are f'ed. Forced to take 2 dangerous terrain tests no matter what they do unless they stay still the rest of the game.

The dangerous terrain effect expires at the end of the turn. So a unit can avoid the 1:6 kills by forfeiting movement. Of course this is tradeoff and the Night Spinner can perpetuate the problem by retargeting the same unit.

Incorrect, the originally quoted rule is incorrect. The wording states that you place a token next to any unit hit and the unit suffers the effects the next time it moves for any reason. It doesn't wear off until the unit moves.

Defiler if you could find that one for me let me know. The wording in the BRB purely just states that you takes a dangerous terrain test if you start or land in difficult terrain.

conversely, the special rule never states that the tokens accumulate.

BlueDagger wrote:Incorrect, the originally quoted rule is incorrect. The wording states that you place a token next to any unit hit and the unit suffers the effects the next time it moves for any reason. It doesn't wear off until the unit moves.

Defiler if you could find that one for me let me know. The wording in the BRB purely just states that you takes a dangerous terrain test if you start or land in difficult terrain.

you absolutely can take more than one a turn but only one per phase. if you move and run and charge , you'll take one each time if you're in dangerous terrain. the only things i know for sure that don't for sure are consolidation moves and fall in moves.

Are you sure on this, and if so a page # for reference? As far as I see a jump infantry using their packs with the web on them would take a dangerous terrain test for beginning their movement in difficult/danger terrain then another for landing in difficult/dangerous terrain. At that point the token wears off so anything else is besides the point.

It wouldn't matter if the web effect stacks since it states the token goes away after the enemy completes a move.

farseerphil wrote:So - if a mob of 30 boys gets hit by the nighspinner - next turn they move - do all 30 take dangerous or just the ones who didnt fail to be wounded?....

imagine hitting 3 squads of boyz clumped together. Eww.


I think i may buy a ton of these just to make Turrets for my wave serpents. Sell the Bits on Ebay that i dont use to make up the cost.

Melissia wrote:It says any "unit", which is the entire squad.

And this is another thing I love about it. It simply says "any unit hit". That means, I can target one of the boyz in the leftmost squad of 20 or 30, still clip the rightmost squad of boyz of 20 or 30 and not only take out a few in each squad, but put them in dangerous and difficult terrain. That's 40-60 boyz moving through difficult terrain, losing one for each 1 rolled. Yeah, gonna be nasty.

BlueDagger wrote:Are you sure on this, and if so a page # for reference? As far as I see a jump infantry using their packs with the web on them would take a dangerous terrain test for beginning their movement in difficult/danger terrain then another for landing in difficult/dangerous terrain. At that point the token wears off so anything else is besides the point.

It wouldn't matter if the web effect stacks since it states the token goes away after the enemy completes a move.

i don't know about the token specifics on the nightspinner as i don't have the white dwarf; my comments are just about regular dangerous terrain. the page is 14 and says you take one test for entering, leaving, or moving through one or more areas of dangerous terrain. it doesn't say you do it for each part separately. as for the charging and running parts, they're listed under their appropriate chapters and subheadings.

This might be a stupid question, but does the difficult terrain test apply only to infantry/jump infantry/bikes/jetbikes? Or would it affect vehicles as well? Clipping a land raider and having an instant 1/6 chance to immobilise it sounds pretty good.

No, whatever is hit counts as being in difficult and dangerous terrain. It doesn't specify that it only works on certain units, ergo it works on all units!

Dangerous terrain - BRB p14 "Roll a d6 for every model that has entered, left or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during its move" (emphasis mine)

Hence you only test once and multiple tokens from different NS hits will not stack.

Thnx a bunch Chimera, I was only looking at the unit type specific dangerous terrain stuff.

and yes, vs mass horde footslog this thing would be rather devastating.