Just got my White Dwarf, issue 366, and it says Codex Witch Hunters and Codex Deamonhunters to be released as PDFs and published on GW website. Just did a search, no sign yet, but it says in the WD they are coming soon!


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Thinking about it, that probably means the old codexes, not new ones. ho hum

Of course it's the old ones - they are hardly going to give new stuff away for free.

Oh dear...


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Are we sure it's not going to be like the blood angels then and linger as a PDF for the next 10 years?

That's a good point actually - maybe this is tacit confirmation of these armies being 'put out to pasture'?

I would be a happy camper if they did the retooling for 5th ed 40k before release.

I wonder how this'll affect all the "GK are next" rumors...

Spearhead is new and coming out as a rule set published for free. However, I accept that they are unlikely to do new codexes for free. Blood Angels codex was a free PDF for a while though so I still live in (somewhat desperate) hope..


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The PDF codex WAS **** but when the new one got done it was IMO brilliant!

The BA PDF wasn't really a 'new' codex though - it was more like an extended FAQ to try and make some sense out of an incredibly old 3rd Ed codex and eke out the life span of it.

Spearhead is purely a way to drive model sales at a low cost to GW - nothing more, nothing less.

"Everything you've been told is a lie."


¬¬

I think that publishing (the old) codexes for free means a new codex is on its way and thai is a means of maintaining some sales and interest until it is released.

If it is out in PDF then there are 3 ways for it to go:

These are the old codexes.... Why?

They are 6-9 months out from release, and these are new updated army lists. They see how they go, make adjustments and then release the full codex. Like they did for summer of chaos WHFB several years ago.

Sucked in and get ready for years of no update.

I'd pick number 2 as the reliable sources have been saying GKs after DE. Release early next year.

Or a way of quietly forgetting they ever existed.

filbert wrote:That's a good point actually - maybe this is tacit confirmation of these armies being 'put out to pasture'?

No.

To clarify : the pdfs will be of the "current" books we all know and love/hate/delete as applicable. Think print runs and sales times.

The lines are not being dropped, however some ..(much maybe even ) .. of their lines and model range will disappear as Gw remove them prior to them being replaced as/when their new books are released. Certain parts of the range are already scarce/ gone.

...which for Grey Knights should be, AFAIK, next year.

The guy in my FLGS was certain it would be a combined WH and DH codex called The Inquisition (cue old Monty Python jokes).

The PDFs for Blood Angels lasted like two years until the new codex, and Chaos Warriors a few months IIRC. But according to reds8n this is not the same, because this are not new rules nor an adaptation to 5th ed. The same codex. Well, at least I hope they will publish the PDFs in Spanish too, I'm tired of my WH in English.

im sure GK are getting a new codex and this is just to get people into GK so they might buy the new one when its released

reds8n wrote:
To clarify : the pdfs will be of the "current" books we all know and love/hate/delete as applicable. Think print runs and sales times.

This. Think about it. They've got the new codex in the works, going to be released within a year or so (we hope/think?). There's probably a minimum requirement for a print run to keep the costs where they can sell it at it's current price. That minimum requirement, which they would have to pay for up front, is probably far more than they expect to be able to sell between now and the new codex release. So they can do a print run and lose money on all the unsold books, or they can make them available in another fashion to maintain some interest and playability for the two armies. Hence the pdfs. Actaully a pretty good move on their part, IMO.

taylorton147 wrote:im sure GK are getting a new codex and this is just to get people into GK so they might buy the new one when its released

I'm pretty sure that, at 8+ dollars a model, people won't be rushing in to "try it". This is not a negative comment towards yours, it just me venting out at GW for being morons. It's the kind of stupid move that just angers the fanbase even more. I've GOT my DH codex, thank you. I've BOUGHT it 7 years ago and I've TRIED using it for 7 years. I've bought a lot of nice models and painted them with care. I'd love for them to be able to pull in a win without resorting to Land Raider spam.

GW has been lazy for too many years, not updating codices fast enough. Now, they have to try and make up for the lost time. Unfortunately, they can't do it fast enough, as far as I'm concerned. If they would only correct a few things in the PDF (like the Heavy 3 non-rending assault cannon or the storm shield), they would "help" a bit. Heck, I'd even take a PDF like the BA had if it was for a year. But putting my codex up for free doesn't give me anything but more frustrations as more and more player print it to use the Inquisitor with mystics and an unlimited rand Psychic Hood.



Phil

I wish they'd do this more often. Why not digitize old books from older editions? GW probably can't make a dime off the old ed. of a book, only second-hand sellers make a buck.

I realize that is a bit out there, but I did begin with "I wish". I just look back at 2nd ed books and find them refreshing.

Dead_Kennedy wrote:Why not digitize old books from older editions?

Because GW is only just realising what the interweb thingy can do.

Really, if they put up the old books, and I mean RT, 2nd Ed, Epic, and so on, and even if they charged a small amount for them, people would buy them.

General Mayhem wrote:The guy in my FLGS was certain it would be a combined WH and DH codex called The Inquisition (cue old Monty Python jokes).

Yeah, and he's repeating rumors from Dakka/Warseer. GW has given no official info to any FLGS about DH, WH, or Inquisitors.


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don_mondo wrote:

reds8n wrote:
To clarify : the pdfs will be of the "current" books we all know and love/hate/delete as applicable. Think print runs and sales times.

This. Think about it. They've got the new codex in the works, going to be released within a year or so (we hope/think?). There's probably a minimum requirement for a print run to keep the costs where they can sell it at it's current price. That minimum requirement, which they would have to pay for up front, is probably far more than they expect to be able to sell between now and the new codex release. So they can do a print run and lose money on all the unsold books, or they can make them available in another fashion to maintain some interest and playability for the two armies. Hence the pdfs. Actaully a pretty good move on their part, IMO.

QFT. It's not worth it to do a print run of the old books. They'd go through 10-20% of them by the time the new book came out, and scrap the rest. Plus be selling books only good for less than a year. Good move just putting them up as PDF's.

The problem with PDFs is that you need to be able to access the net to get an update. As internet access isn't under the control of GW you could end up with a tournament with 2 different versions of the army PDF. The same goes for GW making old editions available. They are nice for collectors but could be very confusing for a newbie. No matter how clear you make the website, someone would get caught out.

As for speed of release. It's all very well writing the book but what about the models to support them? If GW don't get the models out straight away then someone else will make models for them. This is already happening on a small scale. If GW released a codex as a PDF then people bought the current models and then GW released new versions 6 months later, players would be up in arms about being encouraged by a new codex to buy models GW knew they'd be updating.

As for the armies due for a PDF release, I doubt there would be a release of a physical codex so soon after they release a PDF. What I expect is happening is that Warhammer will get the bulk of releases for the rest of 2010, so 40K releases will be limited (Dark Eldar are my hoped for release as its been so long). GK et al aren't likely to sell in massive numbers so they can take their time winding them down and launching new models during WHFB focused months. I would expect the majority of GW sales for the second half of this year will be WHFB, so it makes sense for any 40k releases to be less popular armies that aren't as likely to cannibalise WHFB sales. It also makes sense of why there have been SW, Nids and BA codexes so close to each other, getting the big 40K armies out of the way so they dont impact on WHFB sales.

Bloodwin wrote:The problem with PDFs is that you need to be able to access the net to get an update. As internet access isn't under the control of GW you could end up with a tournament with 2 different versions of the army PDF. The same goes for GW making old editions available. They are nice for collectors but could be very confusing for a newbie. No matter how clear you make the website, someone would get caught out.

There is a difference between being a "newbie" and being someone who is easily confused over simple things.. There is no excuse for a person who plays with little soldiers to NOT know how to successfully navigate the internet in order to download something. If they bring the wrong version of their own codex to a tournament then that's their fault.. They should be a little more diligent when going to a competition. This is part of the problem with the world today, instead of setting the bar HIGHER so people achieve we set it low so that no ones feelings are "hurt" or gets confused.

If someone cant figure out how to get the right version of their rules for free on the internet.. oh well, tough luck

Meh, it's not like this matters worth a damn. These old third edition codices, let's be honest, suck.

Bloodwin wrote:The problem with PDFs is that you need to be able to access the net to get an update.

buhwaaaa!!! ROFL!! good one, bloodwin. an update, you're killing me!

i sincerely doubt these PDFs will be anything other than a scan of the print codices, mistakes and all uncorrected. GW has shown no interest in the minimal effort it takes to update older codices via PDF faq's to fix glaring mistakes/misconceptions/broken rules from 3rd ed that don't work in 5th/etc.

Indeed, you'll probably still need to print out their FAQ to play.

boreas wrote:

taylorton147 wrote:im sure GK are getting a new codex and this is just to get people into GK so they might buy the new one when its released

I'm pretty sure that, at 8+ dollars a model, people won't be rushing in to "try it". This is not a negative comment towards yours, it just me venting out at GW for being morons. It's the kind of stupid move that just angers the fanbase even more. I've GOT my DH codex, thank you. I've BOUGHT it 7 years ago and I've TRIED using it for 7 years. I've bought a lot of nice models and painted them with care. I'd love for them to be able to pull in a win without resorting to Land Raider spam.

GW has been lazy for too many years, not updating codices fast enough. Now, they have to try and make up for the lost time. Unfortunately, they can't do it fast enough, as far as I'm concerned. If they would only correct a few things in the PDF (like the Heavy 3 non-rending assault cannon or the storm shield), they would "help" a bit. Heck, I'd even take a PDF like the BA had if it was for a year. But putting my codex up for free doesn't give me anything but more frustrations as more and more player print it to use the Inquisitor with mystics and an unlimited rand Psychic Hood.



Phil

I want to feel for you, but the two sucking chest wounds created when GW ass-canned first genestealer cultists and then LATD (taking half of my soul each time) has left me dead to the world...

I currently have thousands of points of SOB in mothballs. See I wanted to play SOB not Witch Hunters...

I want a proper SOB codex not feel like my army got shoehorned into another one...

This announcement has triggered my spider sense: This will not end well, for it seems every army i pick gets put on death row, and I can sense the incoming orbital strike...

Fair warning; I am currently playing orks. I apologize in advance for when they are canceled in the near future...

CT GAMER wrote:
I want to feel for you, but the two sucking chest wounds created when GW ass-canned first genestealer cultists and then LATD (taking half of my soul each time) has left me dead to the world...

I currently have thousands of points of SOB in mothballs. See I wanted to play SOB not Witch Hunters...

I want a proper SOB codex not feel like my army got shoehorned into another one...

This announcement has triggered my spider sense: This will not end well, for it seems every army i pick gets put on death row, and I can sense the incoming orbital strike...

Fair warning; I am currently playing orks. I apologize in advance for when they are canceled in the near future...

Man, did you used to play Squats or Slann too?

Games Workshop has a long history of putting out more armies than they can actually support, and then dropping the ones that aren't as popular. The only reason why the Dark Eldar still exist at all is because it would be more work to get rid of them than to simply ignore them.

Ok, that's a little harsh I think. Overall, GW tries to please the largest part of the fan base (which is playing some version of Space Marines) but it is a pattern that creates the imbalances in player base- so that every year GW alienates more people who don't want to play the most popular forces.

But that might simply be something broken about the codex system of releasing new rules (the more frequently updated forces will experience power creep and leave the less updated forces behind).

CT GAMER wrote:

I want to feel for you, but the two sucking chest wounds created when GW ass-canned first genestealer cultists and then LATD (taking half of my soul each time) has left me dead to the world...

Hehehe, yep, I also used to have GS Cult and LatD armies, still do I guess since I still have most of the models. And I've been building up my SoB, took the SoB section for our Adepticon team, they did quite well, we only lost one game I was involved in. So I'm right there with you, altho my Orks (Speed Freaks) are long gone and my primary army is IG.

What gets me is how simple it would have been to do a true update for each army when 5th came out, kinda like it's rumored is going to happen for 8th Fantasy. And the way they once did for 3rd 40K. Almost any half dozen experienced gamers could probably sit down together and rewrite almost everything that is needed in a couple of days.

don_mondo wrote:

reds8n wrote:
To clarify : the pdfs will be of the "current" books we all know and love/hate/delete as applicable. Think print runs and sales times.

This. Think about it. They've got the new codex in the works, going to be released within a year or so (we hope/think?). There's probably a minimum requirement for a print run to keep the costs where they can sell it at it's current price. That minimum requirement, which they would have to pay for up front, is probably far more than they expect to be able to sell between now and the new codex release. So they can do a print run and lose money on all the unsold books, or they can make them available in another fashion to maintain some interest and playability for the two armies. Hence the pdfs. Actaully a pretty good move on their part, IMO.

Exactly this, gj.

Kirasu wrote:There is a difference between being a "newbie" and being someone who is easily confused over simple things.. There is no excuse for a person who plays with little soldiers to NOT know how to successfully navigate the internet in order to download something. If they bring the wrong version of their own codex to a tournament then that's their fault.. They should be a little more diligent when going to a competition. This is part of the problem with the world today, instead of setting the bar HIGHER so people achieve we set it low so that no ones feelings are "hurt" or gets confused.

If someone cant figure out how to get the right version of their rules for free on the internet.. oh well, tough luck

Yes, yes, yes but my point is that I'm obviously right and you aren't so there's little point in continuing this obviously over-thought idea. I obviously meant to say that absolutely everyone will download the first PDF, immediately switch armies, buy all new figures and turn up to the next Ard Boys and weep because GW updated the codex while they were travelling to the tournament and now half their army is obsolete. Mothers and wives will weep at the money they scrimped and saved to enable their son/husband to buy their little toy soldiers because toy soldiers make them the best at winning the internet and woe will be unto the Earth...

You can tell I'm not taking this to seriously can't you?

filbert wrote:The BA PDF wasn't really a 'new' codex though - it was more like an extended FAQ to try and make some sense out of an incredibly old 3rd Ed codex and eke out the life span of it.

Spearhead is purely a way to drive model sales at a low cost to GW - nothing more, nothing less.

The BA web only PDF was a Red Paint Job for the already published DA codex. Then they saved some cash on BA books while they moved on.

Homer

CT GAMER wrote:
I want to feel for you, but the two sucking chest wounds created when GW ass-canned first genestealer cultists and then LATD (taking half of my soul each time) has left me dead to the world...

I currently have thousands of points of SOB in mothballs. See I wanted to play SOB not Witch Hunters...

I want a proper SOB codex not feel like my army got shoehorned into another one...

This announcement has triggered my spider sense: This will not end well, for it seems every army i pick gets put on death row, and I can sense the incoming orbital strike...

Fair warning; I am currently playing orks. I apologize in advance for when they are canceled in the near future...

Don't worry, I'm with you here: First 40k army: Sisters of Battle (over 3000pts, now)... Because I wanted to diversify, I naturally added Grey Knights (over 3000pts now). Then, I realized GKs suck, so I went for an army no one in my gaming circle plays: Necrons! (over 3000pts now).

Two years ago, I threw the towel and started Space Marines. Heck, I like gaming nights, I had to have at least one fully functional army. If it weren't that my best friends all play WH40k, I'd have sold those models on eBay years ago.

Phil

Homer S wrote:

filbert wrote:The BA PDF wasn't really a 'new' codex though - it was more like an extended FAQ to try and make some sense out of an incredibly old 3rd Ed codex and eke out the life span of it.

Spearhead is purely a way to drive model sales at a low cost to GW - nothing more, nothing less.

The BA web only PDF was a Red Paint Job for the already published DA codex. Then they saved some cash on BA books while they moved on.

Homer

It went 1" faster?

No, it was a copy/paste of the DA Codex but with red models in place

Didn't GW do something similar to this with the Space Wolves mini-dex around the time 5ed was released? Not a new edition, just the same ole rules to keep the rules alive for new players or interested parties until a new version is released. Nothing particularly new about that and doesn't mean the codexes are getting the BA or Chaos Warriors treatment.

*Hopes for the next codex after DE to be anything but GKs.*

I could only ask for them to at least do some updates/clarifications in the PDFs. Make everything 5th ed ready, but we all know that GW's too lazy to spend the 2 hours needed to do even that.

I'd like them to apply Imperial Armour to my Sisters so I don't have to pay 50 points for a damn Rhino (not that I do anyway, as I use IA rules, but many FNGs are pissy and don't let you use them)

Melissia wrote:I'd like them to apply Imperial Armour to my Sisters so I don't have to pay 50 points for a damn Rhino (not that I do anyway, as I use IA rules, but many FNGs are pissy and don't let you use them)

I rather field 50 repressors.

That would be a lot of repressors.

I meant 50 point repressors.

That would be 55 points for a repressor, cant have one without extra armor! But having one baseline would be good, so no one here would cry when I field them.

WhiteRussian wrote:That would be 55 points for a repressor, cant have one without extra armor! But having one baseline would be good, so no one here would cry when I field them.

Extra armour is an extra 15 points.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/IA2update28AUG.pdf

don_mondo wrote:
What gets me is how simple it would have been to do a true update for each army when 5th came out, kinda like it's rumored is going to happen for 8th Fantasy. And the way they once did for 3rd 40K. Almost any half dozen experienced gamers could probably sit down together and rewrite almost everything that is needed in a couple of days.

Maybe they'll do that again someday.

I don't know how good an idea it would be, though. I mean, a lot of my friends dropped 40k when the 3rd ed came out (mostly because the rules were nothing like the 2nd ed, the whole forces were turned upside down, and a lot of your minis were either no longer viable or actually against the rules... like power swords or fists on your assault marines).

GW bounced back from that by being the only strong miniatures game out at the time. This was before the second biggest miniatures game was something not made by GW. Now there's Warmachine.

They need to not drive gamers away when there is a place for them to go.

Of course if they did a full update in the way that Warmachine does it, it probably wouldn't be as much of a problem.

I started to weep when I realized when the new GK codex comes out I'm just going to end up buying more GK termies again...

ah, there we go for all the german grey knights


http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2290041_Codex__Daemonenjaeger.pdf

and the witch hunters

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2290040_Codex__Hexenjaeger.pdf

No such luck on the points updates for Sisters :(

Das Rhino ist 50 Punkte.

It also still has only 1 feuerluken.

"They killed Kenny!" You Bast...." Errr, they "killed off" Torquemada Coteaz & Stern but Lord Karamazov & Celestine are still around.

IF you mean in the fluff, then no... Celestine died when a stockpile of nuclear weapons exploded under her feet.

I suspect Acts of Faith are in for a similar fate once the Sisters get an update...

You mean just like Orders? Wait no, they were ADDED in.


I suspect Acts of Faith will become more like Orders.

Dare to dream!

Actually, now that you mention it, you're probably right!

Still, kind of dilutes them, whitewashes them...

Jervis-izes them.

I guess that way is better than not at all though!

Melissia wrote:IF you mean in the fluff, then no... Celestine died when a stockpile of nuclear weapons exploded under her feet.

No, he means all DH special characters and their rules are not included in the pdf, which is weird.

Well, Coteaz sucked, but Stern could be useful if you wanted a second GM NFW.

Wait, wasn't he a WH?

Yeah, I meant they were left out of the DH PDF, at least in the German version. I always think of Captain Stern's first name as being Lincoln.

Why would they remove them?

I mean, we're currently living through the Era of Jervis, also known as the Era of Special Characters, so why remove two of them?

Wasn't the PDF intended to be an update to the Codex, and not a standalone?

If so, it's possible they're just unchanged.

Although it makes you wonder why they didn't just reprint them with the stats the same.

My ability to read German is a tad rusty but I did compare the numbers, looks like nothing is changed that was easy to spot other than the missing SCs. Their exclusion may have been accidental if whoever make the scan was not very familiar with the DH book. Pages are only the ones with stats, rules and/or points, nothing else. Fluff parts are only there if they are a pertinent page.

Just did a page by page comparison with my WH codex (the book)
All as it was originally printed, including Acts of Faith, Allies, Armoury, Henchmen, Upgrades and specials.
Basically all of pages 14 to 47 minus MOST artwork pages, but not page 19 (Adepta Sororitas Battlegear)
Amongst other issues this leaves the WH transport choices vastly over costed:
Chimera 70/55 points for IG
Rhino 50/35 points for SM
Landraider same cost but capacity 10/12 for SM (no machine spirit or assault vehicle rules?)
Stormtroopers seem like a bargain at 10/16 points for IG but no hotshots or special ops.
So why include the Battle sister image from page 19? I'm hoping it means some awesome new plastics...
I think I'll do a similar comparison with my DH book.



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All DH pages from 12 to 32 unchanged from printed codex, still have all DH special rules but as mentioned earlier no special characters.
So it looks like a stop gap Codex like the BA PDF with the prospect of a new shiny 5th Ed update to come.
Could have been worse..

Kanluwen wrote:Wasn't the PDF intended to be an update to the Codex, and not a standalone?

No, that was just unrealistic wishful thinking. Was never meant to be something like the BA Codex in 4th edition.
The German pdf was online several years ago, when the German DH and WH Codices went OOP, was taken from the website with its international relaunch.

Hi guys !

It seems that german pdf looks like the french ones. Here we were short of printed codexes since three years. So downloadable and shortened versions of both codexes appeared. I'm pretty surprised that the english printed version stock lasted so long, that GW decided to make the english pdf available only now in 2010.

For those who are more confortable in reading french compared to german, below are the french downloadable codexes.
I would say, dont expect the english pdf to be different from these. It will only be a temporary fix to book shortage before the real new releases.

french Ordo Malleus codex

french Ordo Hereticus codex

To those in countries where these have been pdf only for a while now, what affect, if any, do you think this has had on the lists popularity ?

I appreciate this will only be anecdotal.

I doubt that the pdf availability made them more popular. It's not a big deal to have a free codex, when every figurine in your army is a pricey one of Pewter alloy.

But it have helped to avoid these armies to not be fogotten. I can't draw a before / after pdf scheme, but these armies remain quite popular despite of their age. Especially among senior modelists.

In tournaments, Demon Hunters are considered as a low tier army, while sisters appear somewhat more competitive. A lot of tournaments here use some kind of compo bonus system to help less competitive codexes, or fun & fluffy builds. So this factor boosts them too. Anyway, in France 2010 Throne of Skulls played at 1750 pts, we had 3 SoB armies (11/17/18 th) and 1 DH army (38 th), among the 42 players gone through qualifiers tournaments. This is not bad (no compo bonus in ToS of course).

Are these really generated from scans?

You know, they really shouldn't need t scan their own books to make PDFs. It's not like they don't have the original files around.

They dropped their printing press and it smashed :(

Balance wrote:Are these really generated from scans?

You know, they really shouldn't need t scan their own books to make PDFs. It's not like they don't have the original files around.

Technically, these pdf's are clean of scan artifacts. So no, they were not made from scanning, but from the original file. However, about army list, the contents are nearly identical to what printed version have been. IIRC they included the errata at the time of pdf release (2007) but no more. These are shortened versions, as I said, because fluff and painting sections are not included, only army list part.
Let's bet it will be the same for english version.
Otherwise GW have become generous.

They haven't uploaded the codexes in the Spanish website. I wonder if they will do it.

Ravajaxe wrote:

Balance wrote:Are these really generated from scans?

You know, they really shouldn't need t scan their own books to make PDFs. It's not like they don't have the original files around.

Technically, these pdf's are clean of scan artifacts. So no, they were not made from scanning, but from the original file. However, about army list, the contents are nearly identical to what printed version have been. IIRC they included the errata at the time of pdf release (2007) but no more. These are shortened versions, as I said, because fluff and painting sections are not included, only army list part.
Let's bet it will be the same for english version.
Otherwise GW have become generous.

OK, that's understandable, if lazy.

"Petit gabarit d’explosion." Yeah, some foods do that to me.

General Mayhem wrote:The guy in my FLGS was certain it would be a combined WH and DH codex called The Inquisition (cue old Monty Python jokes).

Who do you believe? Guy at FLGS? Or Jervis? (Hint: Jervis). Jervis has told us they will not be combined. WHY WON'T THAT STUPID RUMOR DIE!?

Ixe wrote:

General Mayhem wrote:The guy in my FLGS was certain it would be a combined WH and DH codex called The Inquisition (cue old Monty Python jokes).

Who do you believe? Guy at FLGS? Or Jervis? (Hint: Jervis). Jervis has told us they will not be combined. WHY WON'T THAT STUPID RUMOR DIE!?

Because we have hope for a giant a** codex of imperial goodness, thats why.

Ixe wrote:

General Mayhem wrote:The guy in my FLGS was certain it would be a combined WH and DH codex called The Inquisition (cue old Monty Python jokes).

Who do you believe? Guy at FLGS? Or Jervis? (Hint: Jervis). Jervis has told us they will not be combined. WHY WON'T THAT STUPID RUMOR DIE!?

He also said the big black box wasn't Space Hulk.

Happygrunt wrote:

Ixe wrote:

General Mayhem wrote:The guy in my FLGS was certain it would be a combined WH and DH codex called The Inquisition (cue old Monty Python jokes).

Who do you believe? Guy at FLGS? Or Jervis? (Hint: Jervis). Jervis has told us they will not be combined. WHY WON'T THAT STUPID RUMOR DIE!?

Because we have hope for a giant a** codex of imperial goodness, thats why.

You really think a combined codex wouldn't be made out of nerf? I don't have your faith. I want my Codex: Sisters of Battle, and I'm not convinced the SoB would get adequate treatment without their own special book.

Furthermore, we KNOW the rumor is wrong. Your hope is false hope. We actually have solid rules rumors for codex: Grey Knights, including rules and new units we're gonna see... So you can stop holding your breath over the rumor made from whole cloth by an anonymous guy at an anonymous FLGS.

The German PDFs are just the old ones that were up before the store change, both of them combined could hardly be called "massive" as the PDFs are referred to in the latest WD. Also, in Jervis' mind, if they call the future "combined" book Forces of the Imperium, it does not count as a combined Inq codex, so he would not have lied (the title of the section says, "Forces of the Imperium rejoice!").

I agree that combining DH and WH would be undesirable and also highly unfluffy (ie DH are psykers, psykers are heretics, WH purge heretics). Just saying what I heard, not that it is "written in stone". : )

General Mayhem wrote:I agree that combining DH and WH would be undesirable and also highly unfluffy (ie DH are psykers, psykers are heretics, WH purge heretics).

Wrong on both counts.

The three Ordos tend to work together a fair bit.

DH are not psykers. Many Inquisitors from all three main Ordos are psykers, and the factionalism within the Inquisition determines your position towards psykers (ie. casting all Ordo Hereticus Inquisitors as total anti-psyker witch hunters is quite one dimensional).

Sounds like you are a Radical. Some of us are Puritans, burn heretic!

Bloodwin wrote:The problem with PDFs is that you need to be able to access the net to get an update. As internet access isn't under the control of GW you could end up with a tournament with 2 different versions of the army PDF. The same goes for GW making old editions available. They are nice for collectors but could be very confusing for a newbie. No matter how clear you make the website, someone would get caught out.

This is the same excuse GW use for not issuing errata unless it's a massive error.

Other game systems have living rules and don't have this problem - the rules constantly improve and tournaments simply state which version of the rules will be in force.

General Mayhem wrote:I agree that combining DH and WH would be undesirable and also highly unfluffy (ie DH are psykers, psykers are heretics, WH purge heretics).

Uhh... You're being sarcastic right? You can't really believe that WHs indiscriminately hunt EVERY SINGLE PSYKER in the game, including DHs... Such a belief would imply that their greatest enemy of all is the Emperor, and would make them a very non-imperial army, considering the number of psykers the imperium utilizes.

As I understand it, WHs kill psykers which have not been imperially sanctioned, because those psykers might not have a handle on their powers and thus, are very vulnerable to the influence of Chaos, (Potential heretics.) and could serve as a gateway though which demons cross into the materium. Sanctioned psykers, Librarians, DHs, etc. Have obviously been declared relatively safe, and are not in danger of being tracked down by the Ordo Hereticus.

I could be totally wrong, I suppose. I've never played an imperial army and don't care much about their fluff.

Archonate wrote:

General Mayhem wrote:I agree that combining DH and WH would be undesirable and also highly unfluffy (ie DH are psykers, psykers are heretics, WH purge heretics).

Uhh... You're being sarcastic right? You can't really believe that WHs indiscriminately hunt EVERY SINGLE PSYKER in the game, including DHs... Such a belief would imply that their greatest enemy of all is the Emperor, and would make them a very non-imperial army, considering the number of psykers the imperium utilizes.

As I understand it, WHs kill psykers which have not been imperially sanctioned, because those psykers might not have a handle on their powers and thus, are very vulnerable to the influence of Chaos, (Potential heretics.) and could serve as a gateway though which demons cross into the materium. Sanctioned psykers, Librarians, DHs, etc. Have obviously been declared relatively safe, and are not in danger of being tracked down by the Ordo Hereticus.

I could be totally wrong, I suppose. I've never played an imperial army and don't care much about their fluff.

It is general imperial dogma.

There are many different sects within the Inquisition, some abhor the use of psykers and warp tainted artefacts whilst radicals pursue daemonic artefacts to use them against the enemies of mankind. There are conflicts of interest between these sects and wars are fought due to these beliefs. Witch Hunters will gladly hunt down Daemon Hunters.

Even Astartes mistrust Psykers, including their own Librarians.

General Mayhem wrote:I agree that combining DH and WH would be undesirable and also highly unfluffy (ie DH are psykers, psykers are heretics, WH purge heretics). Just saying what I heard, not that it is "written in stone". : )

OK, but here's the thing. We KNOW for SURE that Codex: Grey Knights is coming out, and it is not going to have any Sisters of Battle in it. Screw the fluff of ordos working together, it does not matter. THERE WILL BE NO COMBINED CODEX. It's not an unknown quantity. It's a known fact that this dumb rumor will NOT come true. You can stop "just saying what I heard," because now you know that what you heard is utter B.S.

Ixe wrote:

General Mayhem wrote:I agree that combining DH and WH would be undesirable and also highly unfluffy (ie DH are psykers, psykers are heretics, WH purge heretics). Just saying what I heard, not that it is "written in stone". : )

You can stop "just saying what I heard," because now you know that what you heard is utter B.S.

So I just believe everything I read instead? This is the NEWS and RUMOURS forum? If it's out there its a fact, that is NEWS. If it isn't out there (officially released by GW) then Im afraid that as far as I'm concerned it's still just a RUMOUR. When posters post OPINIONS I accept them as just that, opinions. The irony of WH hunting down psykers when without them the emperor would die and the imperium would collapse is acknowledged in the WH codex, as is the fact that different Inquisitors will have a different attitude to the "problem" Bit like real life really.

Um, I wasn't even talking about the fluff. Fluff is not relevant to the discussion of whether the books will be combined, because they won't. That's from the mouth of a GW game designer. Jervis flat out called the combined inquisition dex "pure fanwank." Why would you trust "guy at FLGS" over "head game designer?" What kind of crazy world would that make sense in?

Let's just agree that some people like Jervis, Harry, DPA and others are certain that we will see a Grey Knight Codex without Sororitas in the near future, and that there is a guy in a FLGS who thinks otherwise.

BTW, there are sanctioned and unsanctioned psykers in the Imperium. New unsanctioned psykers are born every day. Guess what happens to them , when Sororitas find them? Ever heard of the Black Ships? http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Ships

Correct, but then that's what's supposed to happen when ANYONE finds unsanctioned psykers though.

feth the inquisition, GIVE ME SISTERS! Or... I won't give you my money.


What, money talks, grandstanding doesn't


Automatically Appended Next Post:

General Mayhem wrote:The guy in my FLGS was certain it would be a combined WH and DH codex called The Inquisition (cue old Monty Python jokes).

My left asscheek said to my right one that Orks will be combined with Tyranids and the Tyranork army will be out alongside Dark Eldar come this October. I'd say my left asscheek is just as reliable.

Can someone point me to some fluff that shows the Ordos working together. Cause Siege of Vraks clearly contradicts this.

They fight only when their interests contradict. The Cain series, for example, shows that Inquisitors often call on those of the other Holy Ordos if the situation isn't their area of expertise (such as calling the Ordo Xenos to help root out a genestealer cult).

Melissia wrote:
My left asscheek said to my right one that Orks will be combined with Tyranids and the Tyranork army will be out alongside Dark Eldar come this October. I'd say my left asscheek is just as reliable.

Tyranorks would be cool, fingers crossed!......................

So when exactly can we expect this? One to two months?

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:So when exactly can we expect this? One to two months?

Spearhead? It's in this months White Dwarf

No, the inquisition PDFs

was that a serious answer?

As you can see from this thread, the German and French versions are already uploaded, the English version expexcted any day now.

Oh wait, its just the same old crap in print. I must have misread somewhere, because I was expecting a brand new codex, like blood angels 4th edition.

Le Sigh. Can someone confirm that the DH codex still contains the "transports may only transport the units they were purchased for" line over the transport description? Thats a bigger screw than having them over costed, IMHO.

Yes that's what it (the DC) says. It begins with "Transports are always taken as an upgrade..."

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Oh wait, its just the same old crap in print. I must have misread somewhere, because I was expecting a brand new codex, like blood angels 4th edition.

Yes, in this thread we are talking about the same old crap.
Current rumours point to a new GK Codex maybe January, maybe earlier or later. Maybe with or without Inquisition. But that will be the topic of another thread, once we know more.

Which is why very few people are excited about it.

C:WH (I won't speak for the DH codex) is a very, very poor codex-- internally unbalanced, externally unbalanced, crappy painting section, crappy fluff section, etc etc etc. The only reason I even bother to use it is because it's the only way I can legally use my Sisters, the army whose background I prefer the most...

At least sisters are a very good army on the table top. Grey knights are just bad. And all army books had the detail of the sisters codex when it came out.

Melissia wrote:C:WH (I won't speak for the DH codex) is a very, very poor codex-- internally unbalanced, externally unbalanced, crappy painting section, crappy fluff section, etc etc etc. The only reason I even bother to use it is because it's the only way I can legally use my Sisters, the army whose background I prefer the most...

And the same in style and structure to every Codex at the time.

Things only started changing when 4th Ed Marines/BTs/Tau/Tyranids came along.

Yes, it was a pretty poorly done edition wasn't it?

Even the paint section was done poorly, there were just as many Marine variants shown in the group shots as there were Sisters variants. There should have been no goddamned place for Ultramarines in the codex, but somehow they stuffed those ugly fethers in.

What I think is the funniest thing about the paint section is that they have a picture with the caption "The Sisters of Battle join forces with the Black Templars..." even though it says explicitly in the book that Sisters can not join armies with Marines and vice versa.

http://www.modelling-mayhem.co.uk/ourshop/cat_276090-Witch-Hunters.html

Melissia and everyone else, I think you might find this link interesting.

MadCowCrazy wrote:http://www.modelling-mayhem.co.uk/ourshop/cat_276090-Witch-Hunters.html

Melissia and everyone else, I think you might find this link interesting.

That makes me excited, but SALT!

Modelling Mayhem wrote:Games Workshop has released information stating that the next new army and codex is for Witch Hunters. So Modelling-Mayhem will list these items when the new stock is released. Keep checking back for updates!

Modelling Mayhem wrote:Games Workshop has released information stating that the next new army and codex is for Daemonhunters. So Modelling-Mayhem will list these items when the new stock is released. Keep checking back for updates!

I am pretty certain that they got something wrong here.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:What I think is the funniest thing about the paint section is that they have a picture with the caption "The Sisters of Battle join forces with the Black Templars..." even though it says explicitly in the book that Sisters can not join armies with Marines and vice versa.

Marines cannot be taken as allies in a Witch Hunters army that includes Sisters of Battle; however, Sisters can be included as allies in a Space Marine army.

Don't ask me, I don't entirely understand WHY they make such a distinction.

Melissia wrote:Marines cannot be taken as allies in a Witch Hunters army that includes Sisters of Battle; however, Sisters can be included as allies in a Space Marine army.

Don't ask me, I don't entirely understand WHY they make such a distinction.

Meant as a dominance thing, I guess. The Sisters can't/won't ask for Space Marine assistance, but I guess when an Inquisitor joins the Space Marines the Inquisitor can bring whatever troops he or she wants.

You don't have to take an Inquisitor to bring Sisters allies to a Marine army. And even if you take an Inquisitor, you cannot bring Marines into a C:WH army that has Sisters. So that tosses that theory right out the window...

So basically, you can have an army of just Sisters and Marines with no Inquisition in it, but it HAS to use the SM codex as base, not the Sisters codex.

Here's how I like to think of it.

Sisters will never need the help of space marines.

Yet Space marines will need the help of sisters sometimes.

Melissia wrote:You don't have to take an Inquisitor to bring Sisters allies to a Marine army. And even if you take an Inquisitor, you cannot bring Marines into a C:WH army that has Sisters. So that tosses that theory right out the window...

So basically, you can have an army of just Sisters and Marines with no Inquisition in it, but it HAS to use the SM codex as base, not the Sisters codex.

You might assume that whenever Sisters join with Marines, it's because an Inquisitor is calling on them to assist the Astartes. He doesn't have to be in the list to be pulling the strings, though.

TBH, I don't think they forbade SoB from inducting Space Marines for any fluff reason though. They did it, IMO, to keep Sisters from becoming Girly Marines and/or too powerful. SoB would become very powerful with cheap and versatile firepower support options like landspeeders and dreadnoughts. They would also look like just another version of Space Marines. I know that Andy H. was probably very concerned about both possibilities.

Ixe wrote:

TBH, I don't think they forbade SoB from inducting Space Marines for any fluff reason though. They did it, IMO, to keep Sisters from becoming Girly Marines and/or too powerful. SoB would become very powerful with cheap and versatile firepower support options like landspeeders and dreadnoughts. They would also look like just another version of Space Marines. I know that Andy H. was probably very concerned about both possibilities.

Sisters already have quite a few amazing fire support options. The amount of melta and flamer coupled with exorcists is something amazing. I think they didnt want them to get the versatile shooty/assault units marines get. Like terminators in land raiders. The sisters dont generally have any really hard hitting combat units, which is their weakness. Allowing them to induct marines would change that.

I think they did it because their brains weren't wired right when they wrote C:WH.

Witchhunters and dark eldar are the only 2 books from third edition that have survived well into 5th as good, versatile armies, and the only ones from third that could still perform in todays environment. The inquisition books were much higher quality than a lot of the other books back then, DH and WH having more to them than say eldar or marines

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Witchhunters and dark eldar are the only 2 books from third edition that have survived well into 5th as good, versatile armies, and the only ones from third that could still perform in todays environment. The inquisition books were much higher quality than a lot of the other books back then, DH and WH having more to them than say eldar or marines

Most of which was underpowered even back then. Having a slightly better number of units, but most of them suck, is not a good situation..

Especially when a good deal of those units were actually just copy-pasted from a previous codex.

Melissia wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Witchhunters and dark eldar are the only 2 books from third edition that have survived well into 5th as good, versatile armies, and the only ones from third that could still perform in todays environment. The inquisition books were much higher quality than a lot of the other books back then, DH and WH having more to them than say eldar or marines

Most of which was underpowered even back then. Having a slightly better number of units, but most of them suck, is not a good situation..

Especially when a good deal of those units were actually just copy-pasted from a previous codex.

What codex is underpowered? Witch hunters? demonhunters? dark eldar?

Im failing to see the problem with sisters not having a separate codex. You can run a better version of the old sisters list with or without inquisition allies. It still does very well standing on its own.

No, I was referring to half the units in Codex Witch Hunters. Pretty much anything that isn't an Adepta Sororitas unit or an Exorcist is at least somewhat UP, if not dramatically so.

Yes, but this was third edition. Game balance and power came second to cool models and fluff. The fact that sisters are still a good army on the table shows that they are by no means a bad book, just have some bad selections. Which all books have, even current ones. Harpy, carnifex, venomthropes for instance.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Yes, but this was third edition. Game balance and power came second to cool models and fluff. The fact that sisters are still a good army on the table shows that they are by no means a bad book, just have some bad selections. Which all books have, even current ones. Harpy, carnifex, venomthropes for instance.

Those are all from the Tyranid codex. How about some Space Wolves examples.

Which means that third edition books in general were bad, it doesn't mean this one isn't. And most people seem to rank Sisters armies as mid-tier at best and usually lower (though I disagree personally, that's been the general consensus of pretty much every poll I've ever seen).

This thread is getting quite a bit Off Topic now.

Unless it can be dragged back, or there's anything new to report, it might be time to close up shop here...

Alpharius wrote:Unless it can be dragged back, or there's anything new to report, it might be time to close up shop here...

Are there English versions of the PDFs out that I've missed?

No English PDFs yet, but it looks like they should be on GW website by the end of the month and will be cut down versions of the current codexes.
Switch the lights off now?

Alpharius wrote:This thread is getting quite a bit Off Topic now.

Unless it can be dragged back, or there's anything new to report, it might be time to close up shop here...

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Unless it can be dragged back, or there's anything new to report, it might be time to close up shop here...

Are there English versions of the PDFs out that I've missed?

That was kind of the point I was going for...

General Mayhem wrote:No English PDFs yet, but it looks like they should be on GW website by the end of the month and will be cut down versions of the current codexes.
Switch the lights off now?

And THAT would be the 'news' we're waiting for...

General Mayhem wrote:No English PDFs yet, but it looks like they should be on GW website by the end of the month and will be cut down versions of the current codexes.
Switch the lights off now?

I would hope that GW does not consider a 26 page or a 24 page PDF as being "massive", which they said in WD both would be. The cut down German ones are the old pre-site rebuild versions. Supposedly GW is putting up some downloads on Thursday, whether the Inq PDFs will be among them or not has not been said.

temprus wrote:

General Mayhem wrote:No English PDFs yet, but it looks like they should be on GW website by the end of the month and will be cut down versions of the current codexes.
Switch the lights off now?

I would hope that GW does not consider a 26 page or a 24 page PDF as being "massive", which they said in WD both would be. The cut down German ones are the old pre-site rebuild versions. Supposedly GW is putting up some downloads on Thursday, whether the Inq PDFs will be among them or not has not been said.

I didn't exactly look very hard at the white dwarf (it's hard to care about WD these days), where are you getting the "massive" quote, IE, what context are you getting it from?

Close this up already!

then someone can open a new thread when they're actually posted.

I was HOPING that we'd get the English PDF link already but yes, I think you're right.

I'm sure someone will post a link when they show up...