What are you talking about?......

.....

.....


yes, they are very secret. the GKs don't do the mind wiping, just the heavy lifting and when they are done an inquisitor shows up and mind wipes or burns everyone that was present.


the inquisition is known to exist, but the GKs existance(at least the fact they are dedicated to the service of the Inquisition) is kept secret.

if you see a Grey Knight they won't mind wipe you(most people will just assume its a space marine) but if there is a grey knight in your general vicinity then chances are that you are very close to a demonic infestation.


its not that the grey knights are bad for you, it what brought them there thats bad for you.

That part isn't entirely true.

Not everyone who comes into contact with the Grey Knights are mind wiped or burned. Most, in fact, aren't for one simple reason:

How would your average Guardsman know a Grey Knight from a normal Space Marine?

The people who tend to be burned were going to be burned anyways due to having been exposed to a daemonic taint for a lengthy period of time.

Alpha Legion must have an easy time. If a Grey Knight could masquerade as a Space Marine for normal people, there's no reason a Chaos Space Marine couldn't.

Alpha Legion: Hi there, we're here to save you from those nasty Orks.
Civilians: Thank, Mr. Space Marine!
Alpha Legion: We also need all of your promethium, some food supplies, and a hundred of you as sacrifices and cannon fod-I mean, travelers and companions for our journeys through the stars!
Civilians:
Alpha Legion: Don't we look like noble, trustworthy space marines?
Civilians: Oh yeah, you guys are great! Yeah, we'll give you all of that.
Alpha Legion:

But yeah, would the Grey Knights even care? Unless you were tainted by chaos or someone who is going to spread the word easily, I see no need for a mindwipe/execution.

+



=



Right?

Old fluff had everyone being killed or wiped.
New fluff not so much. For example, those who saw Angaron and the GK on Armageddon were "merely" sent to camps. People who had non-daemon-primarch-related contact with GK would probably get nothing done to them.


Also OT, but I couldn't help reading Emperor's Faithful's Shummy quote in his sig and laughing at how ignorant it is

New fluff not so much. For example, those who saw Angaron and the GK on Armageddon were "merely" sent to camps. People who had non-daemon-primarch-related contact with GK would probably get nothing done to them.

Actually, the only reason that they were forced into camps instead of killed was becuase it would have been impossible for the planet to continue to function. Attmepting to cull those who participated could possibly have led to civil war of some sorts. The work camps basically rebuilt the planet from the ground up. Without it, Armageddon would still be a wreck. Or, even more of a wreck when the Orks got to it.

Also OT, but I couldn't help reading Emperor's Faithful's Shummy quote in his sig and laughing at how ignorant it is

Wait, wha-?

Daemon Hunters, as I believe Phil Kelly put it, are the shining paragons of the Inquisition. They are (out of the inquisition) the least likey to mind wipe and kill you if you saw them.

If you saw the daemons, different thing entirely, as mentioned above, the whole population of Armageddon was forced to work in camps after the first war, both as a way of rebuilding the planet, and preventing the taint from spreading. Didn't the Space Wolf chapter master hate the inquisition for doing that?

It's the witch hunters who are the real meanies... You don't know if they've come for that psyker whose eating you're babies, or you :3

Emperors Faithful wrote:

New fluff not so much. For example, those who saw Angaron and the GK on Armageddon were "merely" sent to camps. People who had non-daemon-primarch-related contact with GK would probably get nothing done to them.

Actually, the only reason that they were forced into camps instead of killed was becuase it would have been impossible for the planet to continue to function. Attmepting to cull those who participated could possibly have led to civil war of some sorts. The work camps basically rebuilt the planet from the ground up. Without it, Armageddon would still be a wreck. Or, even more of a wreck when the Orks got to it.

Where are you getting this information? According to Lexicanum sighting 2 Armageddon games, "In order to preserve the secret of the Daemon Primarch, the entire population of Armageddon, as well as all the surviving soldiers, was rounded up, sterilized, and sentenced to work camps for the rest of their lives while a new population was brought to re-settle the planet."
Doesn't sound like they were put in camps because it was necessary for rebuilding to me. I guess the the sterilizing part helped them rebuild too?

Also OT, but I couldn't help reading Emperor's Faithful's Shummy quote in his sig and laughing at how ignorant it is

Wait, wha-?

Ignorant. Super ignorant. It's the biggest generalization I've seen in a long time. It doesn't matter what "side" the quote is on, or what point its trying to make, but making a cute metaphor about entire religions and groups of people that span the entire planet across countries, regions, cultures, and time is never correct or rational.

ph34r wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

New fluff not so much. For example, those who saw Angaron and the GK on Armageddon were "merely" sent to camps. People who had non-daemon-primarch-related contact with GK would probably get nothing done to them.

Actually, the only reason that they were forced into camps instead of killed was becuase it would have been impossible for the planet to continue to function. Attmepting to cull those who participated could possibly have led to civil war of some sorts. The work camps basically rebuilt the planet from the ground up. Without it, Armageddon would still be a wreck. Or, even more of a wreck when the Orks got to it.

Where are you getting this information? According to Lexicanum sighting 2 Armageddon games, "In order to preserve the secret of the Daemon Primarch, the entire population of Armageddon, as well as all the surviving soldiers, was rounded up, sterilized, and sentenced to work camps for the rest of their lives while a new population was brought to re-settle the planet."
Doesn't sound like they were put in camps because it was necessary for rebuilding to me. I guess the the sterilizing part helped them rebuild too?

Ah yes, I had made a mistake there. Ussually with such a deamon presence on such a scale, a planet would often suffer Exterminatus regardless of the outcome. However, since Armageddon was so vitally important in arms manufacture for the sector, so anyone with any viewing or detailed knowledge of the conflict was sterilized and put into camps, to rebuild the factories and industries for the new populants from offworld. However, the point stands that Armageddon was the exception, not the rule.

Also OT, but I couldn't help reading Emperor's Faithful's Shummy quote in his sig and laughing at how ignorant it is

Wait, wha-?

Ignorant. Super ignorant. It's the biggest generalization I've seen in a long time. It doesn't matter what "side" the quote is on, or what point its trying to make, but making a cute metaphor about entire religions and groups of people that span the entire planet across countries, regions, cultures, and time is never correct or rational.

It was a broad (very broad) sum up of an comprehensive arguement on Suma's part. I for one found his wall of text and regular posts to be refreshing after wading through an entire thread plauged with Islamaphobic posters with contributions mostly along the lines of "Dey iz bad islam terrorists and deyz deserve the bomb". If you want I can back and add one of those to my sig to compare it.

First war of armageddon was different, cause a demon-primarch and several big nasties showed up and the GK had to come in force
to drive back those warp-spawns.
Usually the Inquisition will find out soon enough to intercept and the killteams may deal with the infestation without too many
witnessess. Only a few to be missing.....

If its just a small colony, any attack could be easily blamed on xenos instead of demons.
Survivors may a) get killed to save their soul b) get mindwiped c) recruted into the Inquisitors own followship
Would say it depends of the level of the threat.

The Imperium can afford to lose thousands, maybe not afford to lose a source of material.
Members of the mechanicum could erase their memory, normal humans would get mindwiped.
Astartes and SoB may be in the know about the dangers of this galaxy already and safe from the =I= work in the aftermath
of a demonic infestation.

1hadhq wrote:

The Imperium can afford to lose hundreds of billions, and even the occasional planet or two.

Fixed.

Emperors Faithful wrote:It was a broad (very broad) sum up of an comprehensive arguement on Suma's part. I for one found his wall of text and regular posts to be refreshing after wading through an entire thread plauged with Islamaphobic posters with contributions mostly along the lines of "Dey iz bad islam terrorists and deyz deserve the bomb". If you want I can back and add one of those to my sig to compare it.

Being super against Islam for no good reason is bad, but "concluding" that Islamic people have an excuse for being as militant as they are, or even have close to an excuse, is also bad. It also attempts to state as fact that all christians are rich and all muslims are poor, which is wrong, and that christian regions have never suffered horribly, which is also wrong. It's basically a super ignorant and horribly wrong quote, and the fact that it was used to counter other potentially terrible statements doesn't make it better when compared to the world sane and reasonable things that could be said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

The Imperium can afford to lose hundreds of billions, and even the occasional planet or two.

Fixed.

But not Armageddon. Armageddon is an important place.

ph34r wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:It was a broad (very broad) sum up of an comprehensive arguement on Suma's part. I for one found his wall of text and regular posts to be refreshing after wading through an entire thread plauged with Islamaphobic posters with contributions mostly along the lines of "Dey iz bad islam terrorists and deyz deserve the bomb". If you want I can back and add one of those to my sig to compare it.

Being super against Islam for no good reason is bad, but "concluding" that Islamic people have an excuse for being as militant as they are, or even have close to an excuse, is also bad. It also attempts to state as fact that all christians are rich and all muslims are poor, which is wrong, and that christian regions have never suffered horribly, which is also wrong. It's basically a super ignorant and horribly wrong quote, and the fact that it was used to counter other potentially terrible statements doesn't make it better when compared to the world sane and reasonable things that could be said.

There was this whole thing about the Crusades and the reversal of roles, but I'm not going to get into it, not here anyway. Please feel free to continue this via PM, I'd be happy to bash religeon in all it's forms in private.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

The Imperium can afford to lose hundreds of billions, and even the occasional planet or two.

Fixed.

But not Armageddon. Armageddon is an important place.

Yes. Very important.

That's a relief you know. We may disagree on silly theological IRL matters, but when it comes to the important stuff such as a future factory world run by an oppressive government fighting green cavemen with guns being incredibly vital we see eye-to-eye.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

The Imperium can afford to lose hundreds of billions, and even the occasional planet or two.

Fixed.

Fixed?
You know, I tend to shove the losses to the opponent and keep mine as low as possible...

Its:

40k needs the Imperium as resilient as it is, to have an eternal war over dozens of millenia without running out of worlds to fight for.

The Inquisition needs demons and witches and xenos to serve a purpose, if those ever vanish the ressources will be redirected.

Emperors Faithful wrote:There was this whole thing about the Crusades and the reversal of roles, but I'm not going to get into it, not here anyway. Please feel free to continue this via PM, I'd be happy to bash religeon in all it's forms in private.

There would be nothing to discuss, really. It's not a manner of opinion vs opinion, it's just a blatantly incorrect quote trying to pass itself off as insightful, and if you enjoy its presence then you may keep it in your signature, I'm just trying to tell you that it makes you look dumb.

EDIT: and I know it's not trying to be 100% correct, it is trying to make a metaphor, but it doesn't succeed in accomplishing this without stretching the truth all over the place.

1hadhq wrote:

Fixed?
You know, I tend to shove the losses to the opponent and keep mine as low as possible...

I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Guard's strategem, son.

depends on the Inquisitor. Some Witch Hunters, for example, arrive publicly on a planet as the Emperor's Most Holy Inquisition and announce a week long grace period, wherein anyone reporting the sins of their neighbors gets off easy, or something like that.

Other Witch Hunters prefer not to drive their prey away by revealing their presence... I call these the SMART Inquisitors.

Sgt.Sunshine wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Fixed?
You know, I tend to shove the losses to the opponent and keep mine as low as possible...

I think you need to familiarize yourself with the Guard's strategem, son.

Son?

Strategem: blast them to hell from a distance FTW.

BoT:
It wouldn't keep the presence of the inquisition a secret if they order an artillery strike.
Begs the question if the Inquisiton can silently mobilize the IG at all.

Armed forces on the move could ruin the secrecy.

The Inquisition can silently order the IG much easier than they can Astartes or Sisters, that's for certain. Power armor is NOT subtle.

Necroman wrote:Alpha Legion must have an easy time. If a Grey Knight could masquerade as a Space Marine for normal people, there's no reason a Chaos Space Marine couldn't.

Alpha Legion: Hi there, we're here to save you from those nasty Orks.
Civilians: Thank, Mr. Space Marine!
Alpha Legion: We also need all of your promethium, some food supplies, and a hundred of you as sacrifices and cannon fod-I mean, travelers and companions for our journeys through the stars!
Civilians:
Alpha Legion: Don't we look like noble, trustworthy space marines?
Civilians: Oh yeah, you guys are great! Yeah, we'll give you all of that.
Alpha Legion:

But yeah, would the Grey Knights even care? Unless you were tainted by chaos or someone who is going to spread the word easily, I see no need for a mindwipe/execution.

Chaos Space marines actually do this sort of thing all the time.

the average impierial citizen knows very little about space marines in general besides the basic appearance of the armor.

the average impierial citizen knows absolutly nothing about the traitor legions. the HH is a big taboo subject.


a Renagade marine is even more likely to do this, but any Spiky marine could do this.

Also the average Imperial citizen will never, EVER see a Marine. By average, I mean ninety nine percent of the population. Marines are an unimportant aspect of their lives.

Melissia wrote:AMarines are an unimportant aspect of their lives.

That's a bit of fudging the truth there, and says more about your Space Marine hatred than it does of the 'importance' of Space Marines in the lives of citizens of the Imperium.

Alpharius wrote:

Melissia wrote:AMarines are an unimportant aspect of their lives.

That's a bit of fudging the truth there, and says more about your Space Marine hatred than it does of the 'importance' of Space Marines in the lives of citizens of the Imperium.

No, it does not.

The average human will never, EVER see a Marine . Ever. Except in statuary MAYBE, but even then the only Marine that is often put to statues as a saint is Sanguinius, the only primarch declared a Saint. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised that many of them barely even believed Marines existed.

There are three reasons for this.

1: Marines are RARE. There is fewer than one Marine per Imperial world, and likely fewer than one marine per five or ten worlds depending on which author you ask.

2: Marines are always fighting. This means that the average citizen, whom lives a short and unpleasant life working in a factory in a polluted hive city and will never see a battlefield, will never really have a chance to see them.

3: Even on battlefields, most battles are not fought by Marines. They're fought by the PDF and Guard. That's the entire PURPOSE of the PDF and Guard. The Marines are too rare to even fight the majority of the Imperium's battles, nevermind to actually defend the Imperium as a whole as vast as it is. The uncounted trillions of the Imperial Guard ARE the army of the Imperium, not the Marines whom can't even be ordered around by Imperial authorities anyway.


So that means outside of recruiting worlds, which are a TINY percentage of the Imperium, very few worlds are graced with Marine presence over the course of each generation of humans. And even recruiting worlds oftentimes have almost no contact with Marines.

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition can silently order the IG much easier than they can Astartes or Sisters, that's for certain. Power armor is NOT subtle.

The IG is part of the chain of command, the space marines are not.
Try to contact someone without blowing your cover if your opposition may have some hidden supporters.
May happen with IG, as they mesh with the local populace.
And it could be impossible to explain the mobilization of IG units.

Plus, some chapters are really good at secret ops.

But maybe they are to careful to be used as tools ...

1hadhq wrote:[snip]

1: Yes, but the Inquisition doesn't have to explain their actions, they can make people hush up on pain of death without saying what the group is doing.

2: IG meshing with the population makes them BETTER covert operatives than Marines, not worse. Marines make a huge impact wherever they go, they are NOT good at secret ops no matter how much GW wants to spank them.. You cannot hide or infiltrate an eight foot tall monstrosity in power armor, and a Marine outside of power armor is even MORE conspicuous.

3: So mobilize a SMALLER unit. For example, Amberley Vail very secretly mobilized a fire team, plus Cain and Jurgen to scout out tunnels. And Stormtrooper units are specifically trained in this kind of thing.

Melissia wrote:

1hadhq wrote:[snip]

1: Yes, but the Inquisition doesn't have to explain their actions, they can make people hush up on pain of death without saying what the group is doing.

2: IG meshing with the population makes them BETTER covert operatives than Marines, not worse. Marines make a huge impact wherever they go, they are NOT good at secret ops no matter how much GW wants to spank them.. You cannot hide or infiltrate an eight foot tall monstrosity in power armor, and a Marine outside of power armor is even MORE conspicuous.

3: So mobilize a SMALLER unit. For example, Amberley Vail very secretly mobilized a fire team, plus Cain and Jurgen to scout out tunnels. And Stormtrooper units are specifically trained in this kind of thing.

1) Guard operates on orders. Orders have to be given, thus could be intercepted. Dont underestimate the enemy.

2) Its possible to infiltrate marines, like it or not. Worlds used to ogryns and other high-grav dwellers wouldn't mind marines.
Some personal guards arent that small too.

3) inquisitors may recrut whatever they deem useful. Secrecy means no witnesses.
Space marines aren't known to leave too many alive....

4) Morale is part of the secret war. Dishing out the emperors vengeance fast and deadly often explains the benefits of loyality in seconds. Usually assassins and killteams of stormtroopers may be enough, sometimes your inquisitor may not have those tools.
So forfeit duty? Or try to arrange an accident?

1: So do the Marines. The Inquisition, however, can make things far more secret than you seem to be willing to believe.

2: It's also possible to infiltrate vehicles. But that doesn't make them actually stealthy in the fluff. Marines stick out like a sore thumb which is also on fire when trying to infiltrate a chaos cult. THEY ARE fething EIGHT FEET TALL.. There is no way to get around this, no matter how much you want to claim Marines can infiltrate. Marines do NOT fit in with the population . When trying to investigate a potential chaos cult, you do not want to involve Marines. The only thing Marines are good at is killing the enemies of the Emperor.

3: And here, you contradict your first "point". So do they, or do they not leave witnesses?


4: ... you're rather wavering between two points here, aren't you?

4a: Guard morale is not as bad as it seems to be, especially with veterans who know they're going to be rewarded if they do a good job.

4b: If assassins or stormtroopers aren't available, then they're in a pretty damned backwater planet. Assassins-- even if they aren't part of the officio assassinorum-- are pretty damn common in the Imperium. And the top one percent of all stormtroopers are specifically forwarded to the Inquisition for their use. And hell, if you want to talk about difficult to obtain armies, Marines are even HARDER to obtain. Marines are rare as hell and have no obligation to obey an Inquisitor's orders.

I think you got the rarity a bit mixed.

-assasins are really rare. Until you throw in every mercenary.
-ISt are rare too.
-marines are uncommon.
-guard is common.

So no, assassins are least likely to be available in numbers or all the time they want one.
IST are the Inquisition's own forces, if they could do the job always and without involving others, the =I= would not use other forces of the Imperium as IST would provide the best control over training and loyality.
Space marines are swift and may differ, throwing them all into a "noisy and leave a mess" category just shows lack of knowledge.
Still, not always available but nice to have if you want something really dead. Plus GK are space marines.
The IG is everywhere. But varies in quality. =I=Badge of office grants easy access to them.


Now, its funny how hard you try to tell me I can't infiltrate a space marine. Do you claim the space marines lack any recon?
Ever heard about scouts? Read a codex? I don't need to prove things written in codices....

So lets infiltrate a chaos cult, led by alpha legionaires. Oh wait, thats choas space marines. Totally different.
They stick out and are therefore easy to spot.
Maybe " applying the appropriate " personal to a mission could hint on something.

I am under the impression the both of you are arguing a different interpretation of "infiltrating".

Sending a Marine to some world to pose as a cultist or member of the populace, and having him live and do his daily stuff among them as if he were one of them = not happening. They stand out too much, especially physically. In theory a Marine could attempt it without his armour and gear, but I have never heard of such a thing. The Imperium uses other agents for these operations.

Sending a covert Marine or Marine team, aka a kill team usually, with the intention of moving into a place using stealth and going undetected to accomplish certain objectives = done very often.

A lot of background material and Black Library novels feature this. For example the Dark Angles attempt it in story 2 of the second Space Wolves omnibus and the Crimson Fists attempt it at the beginning of "Rynn's World" when they scout the Ork forces. Both of these attempts fail miserably btw. The Fists almost-destruction as a chapter is even caused, indirectly, by one (incredibly stupid) action by one member of their scout team during this mission.

Most of the Imperial citizens indeed never see a Space Marine (usually if they do there is trouble around), and for that reason it can be said they don't play a big role in the every day life of those citizens, but that does by no means mean that they are not aware they exist, and that they are regarded as Godly beings. Whenever Marines set foot on a world they usually encounter masses of idolizing citizens who view them as the closest they will ever get to their God the Emperor. Most of the time this is a huge nuisance and the local planetary defence forces are tasked with keeping the populace away from the Marines.

BTW I believe you are wrong bout infiltrating Marines there Melissa. If you read tales of heresy they actually have created cloaks that change your appearance. To the point one Custodia or w/e they call them spent months as a labourer in one of the games they do. He was dressed as a normal man then. Then at one point I believe an Ogryn.

But to anwser the OPs first question yes and no maybe. Really all depends on the Situation and the forces GKs have and are known to turn on IG forces the second a battle is over to save there souls and to keep the daemons a secret.

TBD wrote:Most of the Imperial citizens indeed never see a Space Marine (usually if they do there is trouble around), and for that reason it can be said they don't play a big role in the every day life of those citizens...

My reply isn't aimed at you TBD, just at the general point that you've raised.

Space Marines are hugely important to the vast majority of Humanity. They are the God-Emperor's Angels of Death and His divine blood flows through their veins.

Saying that Space Marines are unimportant to ordinary humans because they will never see one is an entirely specious argument. There are over a billion Christians who believe pationately in Jesus Christ, and nearly a billion Muslims who feel the same way about Mohammad, peace be upon him. None of these people have ever seen these two men but you would not say that they are unimportant because of this.

To an Imperial Citizen the Space Marines occupy a very similar place in their cultural psyche, more akin to the Apostles than Jesus Christ Himself; the Primarchs would occupy that position. Indeed, the Cult of Sanguinius is the largest Cult within the Imperium after that of the God-Emperor. Ordinary humans might not ever see a Space Marine, they may not even fully believe they exist, but they certainly believe in them as the God-Emperor's Angels of Death and all that that entails.


As to the point of infiltration, this is something the Astartes can certainly do, just as TBD points out. They do not pose as ordinary humans, although many approach Marine proportions so their size is of little importance in those instances; Ibram Gaunt is said to be around or just over two metres tall for example.

Marines can use stealth tactics to infiltrate enemy positions and Chaos Marine Veterans were notable for this thanks to the massive amount of combat experience they have; The Battle for Purgatory story in Codex Chaos had Night Lords veterans infiltrating an Imperial Guard position completely unseen.

1hadhq wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Inquisition can silently order the IG much easier than they can Astartes or Sisters, that's for certain. Power armor is NOT subtle.

The IG is part of the chain of command, the space marines are not.
Try to contact someone without blowing your cover if your opposition may have some hidden supporters.
May happen with IG, as they mesh with the local populace.
And it could be impossible to explain the mobilization of IG units.

Plus, some chapters are really good at secret ops.

Spoiler:

Raven Guard

But maybe they are to careful to be used as tools ...

the imperium feeds propaganda to its civillians all the time for all they know the imperium is still winning. Its possible to find an excuse for mobilizing hundreds of IG troops

inquisitoredd142 wrote:

the imperium feeds propaganda to its civillians all the time for all they know the imperium is still winning. Its possible to find an excuse for mobilizing hundreds of IG troops

Depends on the targets.
High ranking 'heretics' may find out what this mobilization is good for.
Lowly cults may not get the access to needed info so they may believe the excuses.

With power comes paranoia. Some of the worst threats to the Imperium were cautious and didn't trust official sources,
so the propaganda won't work. You could stir them up with guardsmen swarming in their backyard so maybe an inactive IG
an a decisive strike with a killteam keeps them in their hideout and you don't have to deal with 'innocent' citizens.

Melissia wrote: snip

You entirely missed my point.

Which is that Marines are VERY important in the lives of Imperial citizens, whether or not they've seen one.

I'm fairly certain that all good Imperial citizens know this too, as they're taught it from an early age.

Alpharius wrote:You entirely missed my point.

Not really, you failed to make the point. I don't buy your argument for an instant.

Melissia wrote:

Alpharius wrote:You entirely missed my point.

Not really, you failed to make the point. I don't buy your argument for an instant.

Aren't you just a bag of sweets?

You may not believe it, but that doesn't make it any less true!

Nor does your believing it make it any less false. I have see ZERO fluff showing that Marines are preached about by the Ecclesiarchy. Saints, yes, but there's only one Astartes saint that I know of (Which I mentioned before). Astartes themselves? No.

Cite your sources if you really want to press the issue. While the common citizen would certainly be in awe of the Marine, that doesn't mean they're terribly important to Imperial culture.

Melissia wrote:Nor does your believing it make it any less false. I have see ZERO fluff showing that Marines are preached about by the Ecclesiarchy. Saints, yes, but there's only one Astartes saint that I know of (Which I mentioned before). Astartes themselves? No.

Your zealotry to the Sisters is certainly impressive. I guess.

It also blinds you to the reality that you live in.

So to speak, of course.

Alpharius wrote:Your zealotry to the Sisters is certainly impressive. I guess.

It also blinds you to the reality that you live in.

So to speak, of course.

Don't whine to me about "zealotry" and being "blind", when I'm still waiting for you to cite a source for your supposed insight. Personally, I used simple numerical comparisons and logic for my arguments. You can look back and read it if you want. You may not like my arguments, but my argument actually HAS something to back it up. You have yet to present any such backing to your own. Furthermore, I can cite sources where Saints are worshipped along with the Emperor, and venerated (Dark Heresy is the easiest source of course, but there are others), yet I have not seen any evidence to support your claim. As I said, Marines may be held in awe, but to claim that makes them IMPORTANT to the lives of the common citizen is ludicrous.

So are you going to cite your sources to back up your claim or not?

Um, do you think you might be taking this a bit too seriously?

As for sources, just about EVERY important battle in the history of the Imperium has had Space Marines play a crucial role in it.

The citizens of Armageddon, Cadia and Ultramar, to name a few, would probably agree.

Alpharius wrote:The citizens of Armageddon, Cadia and Ultramar, to name a few, would probably agree.

It should be noted that Armageddon and Cadia are two of the most famous battlegrounds, so the citizens there would certainly have a greater knowledge of the Space Marines. Ultramar is a system controlled by Space Marines, so that's another exception to the rule.

They're probably not the best example of an average planet.

As for how well the Imperial citizens know of the Space Marines... No idea. Considering the Imperium's policy towards the Space Marines (Make a great visual and visceral impact), making propaganda for them would only make sense.

In almost every BL novel I've read, when Space Marines show up and are seen by civies, they're treated with equal parts awe / terror / worship. They are not ignored as unimportant, or disbelieved completely as imaginary. They are usually referenced in context of the Emperor, so I do believe the Ecclesiarchy preaches about them in that way. Off the top of my head, in Nightbringer when the Ultramarines arrived on Pavonis, Brothers of the Snake the first short story, when the feudal world humans summoned the Marines, Rynn's World and Helsreach describes civilian reactions to Crimson Fists and Black Templars respectively, Lord of the Night has hive dwellers mistaking a Night Lord for an Astartes and spontaneously worship him, etc etc. I'm sure there are more but can't remember right now.

by "important" i think he meant as a part of semi-daily life.


marines are important like distant events are important.

do they ever effect me, yes.

do they have a day to day impact, rarely and when they do it is major.

Keep in mind that even the Black Crusades were often basically just rumor-fodder and occasionally just plain rumors once you got more than a sector away from the Eye of Terror. Oftentimes civilians wouldn't even hear of it until it's already over (source for this, by the way, is Cain's Last Stand, amongst other books). The Imperium is massive, almost spanning the entire galaxy.

Are Marines important on worlds they're fighting? Yes. But then that's a misleading question. THe MArines are so damn rare that on most worlds entire generations have gone by without them ever having passed through the system, nevermind setting foot on the world itself. The majority of humans are too busy just trying to make ends meet to really give anything more than bare lip service to such far-away things. They pray to the Emperor and his Saints, and hope that the paltry few thrones they're making on their jobs will be enough to support themselves and possibly their families.

As I already pointed out, your argument that Marines are unimportant because they are rare is completely specious.

"They are the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death, the Saviours of Mankind." Sounds pretty important.

Every army book says platitudes like that. They, however, ARE unimportant in comparison to, for example, the Guard. Without the Space Marines, the Imperium might wither away. Without the Guard, the Imperium would simply cease to exist. I never said they were completely unimportant, however.

Regardless of THAT, however, the claim was made that Space Marines are somehow very important to the lives of the average citizen, which there is no proof of; indeed, there is no real reason to believe this is so.

Melissia wrote:Without the Space Marines, the Imperium would simply cease to exist. Without the Guard, the Imperium might wither away.

Fixed.

Anyhoo, they're important to the lives of the average citizen in a way, without the space marines, they would not be there. They may not have saved their lives, though they have saved the lives of their ancestors for sure.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:Fixed.

That is so hilariously wrong that I'll assume you're being sarcastic.

If any imperial citizen from a non-combat planet is able to recognise a space marine and know roughly what they are (the whole 'Emperor's angel of death' thing) then I would class them as important culturally. Even if it is in terms of mythology, they are known.

We don't know exactly how they are known, whether they are preached about as part of the Imperial Cult, whether it is more from a military side (people also know a lot about the IG, probably due to recruitment, so might be that way) or some other source. Maybe information comes from various sources. But they are clearly talked about if only rarely.

Pretty much everyone in this thread thinks Melissia is wrong in some perspective... why are you still trying to persuade someone when A)you can't cite your sources, and B) Melissia probably wouldn't change his/her mind anyways...

Effectively, STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!

What makes you say that spiky marines in camo make dark angels? hmm... *calls ravenwing and deathwing*
yes, stay there just for being so smart I ordered you a pizza.



I've never had a fond look on the inquisition, but I'd hope they aren't as trigger happy as they seem. People are resources after all, surely they understand this. Pardoning full on daemonic possession or cooperating with xeno's I think they'd be mind wiped and sent on their merry way.

@Rashim: Troll calling troll?

Melissia is making many good points here. I for one agree with him/her. The Ecclesiarchy has a bone or two to pick the the SM, as they have thier own seperate creed concerning the Emperor. Why would the Ecclesiarchy put much effort into blowing the SM trumpet? Melissia is correct in arguing that SM are more of a legend or myth. Gogsnik's point that 'Jesus is important and we don't see him!' doesn't hold up here. Imperial Citizens don't beatify Space Marines, they get second hand rumours and word spreads, but they don't worship them like they do the saints, which is a better comparison to Gogsniks point.

And Mr.Inquisitor, I really hope you were joking there. The IG and PDF are just so...fundamental that the Imperium would literally dissapear overnight without them, while I can imagine the Imperium soldiering on without the SM for a while at least. (The sheer amount of resources dedicated to founding and maintaining a chapter are monumental)

SM are not a subtle weapon. Even in Kill teams, they're not going in for subtlety or scouting. They mean business, 'blowing stuff/people up' type business. I find it impossible that anyone thinks the SM could achieve anything covert. The best they could possibly manage is the activities of scouts and stakeouts behind enemy lines, which more often than not involve heavy fighting.

@1hadhq: Assassins come in many forms, Death Cult assasins are cheaper than chips, and Melissa stated that he did not necessarily mean Oficio Assasinorium operatives.

@ph34r: As I said, I would be happy to continue this conversation via PM, but the last thing I want is to bring religeon into this and get a lock. Please do send a PM. (En Garde!)

There's like, literally Trillions of Imperial Guardsmen and less than one million Space Marines right?

The only Space Marine force dedicated to stealth is a Chaos Legion, the Alpha Legion. They're pretty goddamn good at it too.

Emperors Faithful wrote: Melissia is correct in arguing that SM are more of a legend or myth.

I think Mel was arguing more that Space Marines are unimportant to the point of irrelevance to the average imperial citizen, who is more concerned with meeting his manufactorum quota, bumming a lho stick, fixing up his hab unit etc. In other words daily life. This I can agree with.

But I do think the civies are AWARE of the Space Marines and hold them in high reverence and esteem. Hell they're featured in propaganda holovids so how can't they be. They certainly do not think they are imaginary / myths. I can't think of any instance when a hive dweller saw a marine and said, wow! what's that thing?!

rabidaskal wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote: Melissia is correct in arguing that SM are more of a legend or myth.

I think Mel was arguing more that Space Marines are unimportant to the point of irrelevance to the average imperial citizen, who is more concerned with meeting his manufactorum quota, bumming a lho stick, fixing up his hab unit etc. In other words daily life. This I can agree with.

King Arthur is a legend. Does your knowledge of him dominate your livelihood? No. We're actually arguing the same point here.

But I do think the civies are AWARE of the Space Marines and hold them in high reverence and esteem. Hell they're featured in propaganda holovids so how can't they be. They certainly do not think they are imaginary / myths. I can't think of any instance when a hive dweller saw a marine and said, wow! what's that thing?!

Yes, but if you had been hearing the stories and seeing the pictures your entire life it's completely different from actually meeting one in real life. Say that there had been rumours of a regiment of ninja monkeys being designed to counter the actions of Somali pirates. It's one thing to have heard the sotries as a kid, hear about it from official sources and even see the pictures; it's another to see them in the flesh and in action, hence the shock and awe when ordinary citizens see them.








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Nitros14 wrote:There's like, literally Trillions of Imperial Guardsmen and less than one million Space Marines right?

The only Space Marine force dedicated to stealth is a Chaos Legion, the Alpha Legion. They're pretty goddamn good at it too.

That's mainly due to three things.

1) They often operate alone or in small groups, not as a cohesive military force as portrayed in Dawn of War

2) They utilise the populace and cultists to do the most of the fighting and avoid making themselves known to be the leaders of any movements, operating through figureheads under thier influence.

3) They are able to do so precisely becuase of the incredible ignorance of most Imperial Citizens regarding Space Marines and the Horus Heresy. If they are even tuaght about it all, they view Chaos Marines as silly stories to frighten the young uns into bed. Alpha Legion operatives realise this and find it all to easy to masquerade as the more well known Space Marines.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

King Arthur is a legend. Does your knowledge of him dominate your livelihood? No. We're actually arguing the same point here.

Hmmm yes I think we ARE saying the same thing darn these interwebs haha

Rashim wrote:Pretty much everyone in this thread thinks Melissia is wrong in some perspective... why are you still trying to persuade someone when A)you can't cite your sources, and B) Melissia probably wouldn't change his/her mind anyways...

I could change my mind if they could actually cite a damn source proving that Marines are somehow worshiped alongside the saints as people seem to want to believe. Naturally, noone can provide a source, I assume it's because they're wrong, but I can keep an open mind for anyone who can prove their point.

I could see it happening on a Marine recruiting world-- especially since Marines tend to recruit from Feral/Feudal worlds to begin with . They're basically gods of metal on those worlds anyway. But those aren't the average Imperial worlds...

"Cadian Blood", "The Sabbat Worlds Crusade" sourcebook, and the second book in the "Space Wolf" series.

Not worshiped as such, but venerated due to the fact that they take place on worlds where Marines were pivotal in some moment of their history.

Thank you. So we have evidence that worlds which have been majorly impacted by Marines venerate them (or at least that chapter at any rate).

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Melissia is making many good points here.

No.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
@1hadhq: Assassins come in many forms, Death Cult assasins are cheaper than chips, and Melissa stated that he did not necessarily mean Oficio Assasinorium operatives.

It doesnt matter how many types of assassins are included in these false claims.
Still those assassins are either rare and not dirt cheap or they sucessfully escape the =I= and so they don't have access to enough of them. In both cases, Assassins are not always available.

Most of the Black Library novels I have read draw a clear picture for us that:

To the citizens of the Imperium the Emperor is God, the Primarchs are/were his archangels, and the Marines are the angels.

Almost all of these saints we keep hearing about are a local John, Harry or Betsy who supposedly did some fantastic trick long ago, the power to do so bestowed upon them by (faith in) the Emperor, and have been promoted to sainthood for the sake of connecting the far away God-Emperor to something local the populace can grasp and relate to. They are nothing more than tools in the process of propaganda, brainwashing and keeping the populace in check.

At the end of the day the one and only important subject of worship is the Emperor. Ultimately he is the one being worshipped, whether it be indirectly through a saint or directly. Logically, the Imperial church is putting emphasis on worshipping the God and not his angels, since the Marine chapters are still an active force in the galaxy. Obviously you can't have people running around worshipping military factions in a religious way. This can never lead to anything good. Saints on the other hand can be safely worshipped in a religious way (in the capacity of being loyal servants themselves, of course). They are long dead and pose no potential threat whatsoever. The pecking order has to be perfectly clear.

So, both Marines and saints are the Emperor's faithful servants. They both intentionally have a different purpose in relations with the populace, but neither can ever be called unimportant to the common folk.

Everywhere you look on Imperial worlds there are buildings and places, like dignitary builings or simple city squares, where tapestries show the Primarchs and their Marines in historic (battle) scenes, or statues of Marines "standing guard, watching over the people". Remember that it was the Marines who conquered most worlds of the Imperium. Not saint Harry. The people of a world are being made very aware of this. And above all else they are made aware that the Marines did it for the beloved God-Emperor.

Also, throughout the Imperium most of the systems are within a sphere of protection of a Marine chapter homeworld. For example the Space Wolves actively patrol several systems which are within their assigned area around Fenris, and whenever there is trouble they are being made aware immediately. If the local planetary defence forces and/or local Guard regiments require assistance they send forces in. The inhabitants of these systems/worlds know damn well which Marine chapter serves as their protector, even if they don't actually walk among them on a daily base.

It is said that for many Imperial citizens seeing a Marine with their own eyes is considered the highlight of their life because it is like looking upon part of the Emperor himself. They don't worship them religiously, but they do idolize them as their divine protectors. The latter is not necessarily more or less important than the former, and vice versa, just different. They operate side by side instead of one having to be > the other.

Source: a buttload of Black Library books.

1hadhq wrote:It doesnt matter how many types of assassins are included in these false claims.

An assassin, plain and simple, is "a murderer (especially one who kills a prominent political figure) who kills by a surprise attack and often is hired to do the deed". Assassination is considered a normal and perfectly legitimate tool amongst the nobility of most Imperial worlds. Underworld bosses hire assassins to deal with particularly troublesome people, as well.

Source for this is Dark Heresy, amongst other books (I believe such an assassin was suggested in the first Cain book as well).

Well, of course you have assassins and you have assassins.

If you need somebody really important assassinated you'll usually need a really good assassin, because the more important the individual the better protected he or she usually is. Inquisition trained/made assassins are of course viewed as the best around, but some of the other very influential factions have their own secret top of the bill assassins too. Through backstage politics an Inquisition assassin can very well end up doing a job for someone outside of the Inquisition.

I am not sure what you people are arguing about here though

I'm not entirely sure either anymore. I was mostly opposing the idea that somehow Marines are OMGWTFBBQ important to every citizen in the Imperium...

They don't call Space Marines the Angels of Death for nothing. They really are the Imperium's equivalent of mythical angels. There are (approxiamatley) 1 million worlds in the Imperium and (appoximatley) 1 million Sapce Marines. Every world may have 1 mystical super being looking out for it: a Guardian Angel.

We as readers observing from the outside know different. Cadia has 20 chapters assigned to it (or something). And they are entire sectors the imperium wouldn't lift a finger to save because of its strategic insignificance.

It true 99.99% of humans have never and will never see an Astartes. But should they, they react the same way we would upon seeing a winged angel with flaming sword: in awe, but also pretty freaked out.

Melissia wrote:An assassin, plain and simple, is "a murderer (especially one who kills a prominent political figure) who kills by a surprise attack and often is hired to do the deed". Assassination is considered a normal and perfectly legitimate tool amongst the nobility of most Imperial worlds. Underworld bosses hire assassins to deal with particularly troublesome people, as well.

Source for this is Dark Heresy, amongst other books (I believe such an assassin was suggested in the first Cain book as well).

More variants to choose from change what?
I know what an assassins is, where the name stems from and the questionable ideas of imperial nobility arent completly new to me.
And still, any source i know of had rather the Inquisitor going him/herself for the kill than trust an assassin.

TBD wrote:
I am not sure what you people are arguing about here though

Me too.

1hadhq wrote:I know what an assassins is, where the name stems from and the questionable ideas of imperial nobility arent completly new to me.
And still, any source i know of had rather the Inquisitor going him/herself for the kill than trust an assassin.

Some Inquisitors are very hands-on, while some prefer to be in the shadows pulling strings. Just the same as some Inquisitors prefer to burst out into the open and inspire fear into the populace, while others never leave a trace of their presence.

Effectively, each Inquisitor is unique. Some of them come from the ranks of the Imperial Guard; others from the Adepta Sororitas; others from the nobility; others from the common people. Still others from the vast ranks of the adepts of the Adeptus Terra and the Administratum, and still others from lower places such as the scum of an underhive gang society. Pretty much the only groups that Inquisitors DON'T come from are the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Ordo Assassinorum temples.

But it would be awesome if there was an Adeptus Mechanicus Inquisitor!

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Rashim: Troll calling troll?

Melissia is making many good points here. I for one agree with him/her. The Ecclesiarchy has a bone or two to pick the the SM, as they have thier own seperate creed concerning the Emperor. Why would the Ecclesiarchy put much effort into blowing the SM trumpet? Melissia is correct in arguing that SM are more of a legend or myth. Gogsnik's point that 'Jesus is important and we don't see him!' doesn't hold up here. Imperial Citizens don't beatify Space Marines, they get second hand rumours and word spreads, but they don't worship them like they do the saints, which is a better comparison to Gogsniks point.

I only troll GWAR!, and that is because it is hilarious. Most of the time I am a contributing member of this community =P.

On Topic for the off topic (lol), I completely disagree with Melissia's opinion on importance. Fluff wise, the Space Marines are known by just about everyone, whether it be mythology or actually seeing one in person. The fact that they are known of in some form across the whole Imperium says something. If Melissia wants citing from books, I have the whole BL on my shelf. AFAIK, the Eisenhorn/Ravenor series have quite a few civilians making statements of awe at actually seeing that Marines are real, and Gaunts Ghost's series have a few examples of someone seeing a myth in person.

This debate overall is not really going to show one side being more important than the other. The best metaphor for Gaurds vs SPHESS MEHRINES is the IG are the hand, while the SM's are the scalpel.

As far as the concept of worshiping goes, Melissia and Emperor have it down, and while this part of the conversation is important to their argument, I see it as just another factor in whom is more important than whom. The Imperium is like a (badly) greased machine, all the parts are moving together in (horrible) unison.

Either way, I'm sure I missed some points, or screwed up, because I'm @ work and had to scroll through some of the long Walls of texts. In the end, I'm glad to see some form of intellectual debating coming from Emperors Faithful and Melissia. Don't see that to often in 40k Background X.D!

Actually I think it would. The comment about the Imperium slowly dying off without Space Marines is true-- but so is the Imperium simply ceasing to exist without IG/PDF. Space Marines cannot defend the Imperium as a whole (there's not enough of them), but the Guard can, and does, and goes on the offensive besides-- they have far more than enough units for that.

That was my entire point with that comment.

Melissia wrote:Actually I think it would. The comment about the Imperium slowly dying off without Space Marines is true-- but so is the Imperium simply ceasing to exist without IG/PDF. Space Marines cannot defend the Imperium as a whole (there's not enough of them), but the Guard can, and does, and goes on the offensive besides-- they have far more than enough units for that.

That was my entire point with that comment.

Yes. Yes space marines could. Either way, the imperium would slowly wither away. You just have to pick between IG or SM dying.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Melissia wrote:Without the Space Marines, the Imperium would simply cease to exist. Without the Guard, the Imperium might wither away.

Fixed.

Anyhoo, they're important to the lives of the average citizen in a way, without the space marines, they would not be there. They may not have saved their lives, though they have saved the lives of their ancestors for sure.

Although I disagree with Melissa (I think without Space Marines, the Imperium would have collapsed; for example, remember Hive Fleet Behemoth?), there is no question of the Guard being important. Without the Guard, the Imperium would have completely imploded. There is no way for an Imperium with less Astartes than there are planets to survive without the Guard.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually I think it would. The comment about the Imperium slowly dying off without Space Marines is true-- but so is the Imperium simply ceasing to exist without IG/PDF. Space Marines cannot defend the Imperium as a whole (there's not enough of them), but the Guard can, and does, and goes on the offensive besides-- they have far more than enough units for that.

That was my entire point with that comment.

Yes. Yes space marines could. Either way, the imperium would slowly wither away. You just have to pick between IG or SM dying.

Eye of Terror. Defended by Cadia. What do you think happens if the Guard disappears overnight?

Bad things.

There are not enough Space Marines to even assign 10 to every planet. That's the problem: Space Marines precise and deadly, but they cannot cover the Imperium in the same way hundreds of billions of Guardsmen can.

Melissia wrote:Actually I think it would. The comment about the Imperium slowly dying off without Space Marines is true-- but so is the Imperium simply ceasing to exist without IG/PDF. Space Marines cannot defend the Imperium as a whole (there's not enough of them), but the Guard can, and does, and goes on the offensive besides-- they have far more than enough units for that.

That was my entire point with that comment.

I see that when I re-read your original posts. It is the people responding to it that throw me off. I feel silly now.

I still feel that without either one, the Imperium is a lost cause. Argument is silly @ this point. Peoples responses to you posts are hurting my head.

MY original post about trolling was directed at the people who were directing their posts towards you and not really doing anything with their posts. I agree with the need for citation when talking about fluff, and just in general. When you say something, you need to default back to SOMETHING to make your statements valid. That is what upset me, was the fact that you asked for citation and you were given none each time you asked =P.

Uff...that took a long time to read.

Why not just say, lets agree on disagreeing.

The current facts are pretty simple:

- Are SM known to the Imperial populace? YES
- Are they worshipped as saints? NO (with some exceptions already mentioned) sure there are statues of SM all over the place, but in most cases they are honouring a hero, not a saint.
- It is true that the vast majority of the common populace will never see a space marine? YES, but still they know they exist.
- Do they play a major part on the populace daily life? not really. People only seem give due importance to SM when the IG/PDF are getting their butts turned inside out by some xenos or heretical force.

Obviously this is just the general sum up of the fluff as one cannot predict how each person will reach upon seeing a space marine in front of him.

The most common reactions are as follows:
- Relief (because they are here to save them from the bad guys);
- Hope (that they will be saved by the SM);
- Fear (Because they are huge, and their armour is stronger that their cars/houses);
- Hysteria (because if SM are on their planet something nasty is comming);
- Courage (SM are here, the finest warriors of the Big E, with them here nothing can happen to us, CHARGE! *smell of burnt flesh and the sound of an ork burnaboy giggling**SM facepalms and keeps shooting*);
- Faith (The emperor's finest are here, "The Emperor has not forsaken us!";
- their pants (I just had to add this, I was getting too serious)

As for quotations read pretty much any BL book regarding SM (I suggest "Sons of Dorn" and "Rynn's World")

I'm actually of the opinion that the Imperium could like work better with fewer Space Marine chapters, and certainly a mountainload of restrictions placed upon them.

The bare resources and manpower just to equip a single SM chapter with wargear, defences and a fleet(!) is monumental. You could likely muster segmentum fleet with those resources alone. Their independance is a problem as well, many CSM are not still the same fighters from the Horus Heresy. Swathes of them are small warbands or even entire chapters of SM that have gone rouge. In essence, the Imperium is providing the only major source of new CSM recruits.

I know this post is going to result in heavy SM lover outrage, but IMHO, the resources dedicated to the founding of many new SM chapters would be better spent on the strengthening of more coventional Imperial Guard and Navy forces.


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@Rashim: Mellissia has often quoted or sourced from the Ciaphas Cain books amongst others.


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Oh yeah, the Dark Heresy books. Haven't read those, so I can't confirm.

well, you do make a fair point. It takes a lot of resources to maintain chapters, but there again they are needed.

But anyway how could the IG be further improved with marine resources?

They have more tanks with better weapons, overall they have a larger fleet already.

The only way I can see IG improving is by:
1) giving them weapons instead of flashlights;
2) Replace the origami armours with proper armour
3) Use genetic manipulation to grow a pair of balls on the guardsmen so the commissars don't have to keep shooting them to keep the moral up

And if you do this, guess what, you'll pretty much end up with space marines. lol

As for your marines turning to chaos point, you seem to be neglecting the fact that IG also turns chaos (they just tend to die very fast, so you don't hear that much about their brave, heretical deeds).

Finally one question remains, if the empire was to cut on the number of SM chapters what would they do with the extra marines?
Send them to unemployment and have them live off the Imperial citizens taxes?

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Rashim: Mellissia has often quoted or sourced from the Ciaphas Cain books amongst others.

I'm not arguing his citation. I'm saying that I was irked by him asking for citation from other people, and them just blowing him off or /ignoring him.

@Rashim: Oh sorry, I thought you were saying that he wasn't giving any citations.

@Krauser: Firstly, you could almost double the size of the Imperial Navy by rediriecting the construction of SM ships into the Navy. Instead of better Guardsmen, I'd be arguing for MOAR!!! The reason that heretical guardsmen die off quickly is explained in the IG codex. If an IG regiment goes rouge, they're stuck on planet, they're only an Infnatry/Artillery/Armoured regiment. They're only one facet and can be defeated easily enough by a combined force. Likewise, an Imperial ship that rebels can't resupply or secure resources as they have no form of actually aquiring or securing the materials needed planetside.

With SM, they are entirely independant forces, so when a few with thier own ship go loose, they are a mobile force that can't be easily hunted down, making getting to a 'friendlier' CSM area or going off on thier own mission easier. And if it's a whole chapter, it's going to take a while to muster the forces you'd need to have a hope of stopping them while they run willy-nilly.

Rashim wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Rashim: Mellissia has often quoted or sourced from the Ciaphas Cain books amongst others.

I'm not arguing his citation. I'm saying that I was irked by him asking for citation from other people, and them just blowing him off or /ignoring him.

I was asking for SPECIFIC citations. Saying "I cite the fluff in general" isn't helpful in any way whatsoever, and therefor I ignore it.

I used the Ciaphas Cain books because they actually show some interaction with the populace, whereas most Marine books do not. And Dark Heresy is, of course, a very good reference for anything civilian related and the operation of the Inquisition in general at the lower levels (And yes, it is canon, it was worked on by Dan Abnett and Andy Hoare amongst others).

Also, SHE.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
@Krauser: Firstly, you could almost double the size of the Imperial Navy by rediriecting the construction of SM ships into the Navy. Instead of better Guardsmen, I'd be arguing for MOAR!!! The reason that heretical guardsmen die off quickly is explained in the IG codex. If an IG regiment goes rouge, they're stuck on planet, they're only an Infnatry/Artillery/Armoured regiment. They're only one facet and can be defeated easily enough by a combined force. Likewise, an Imperial ship that rebels can't resupply or secure resources as they have no form of actually aquiring or securing the materials needed planetside.

With SM, they are entirely independant forces, so when a few with thier own ship go loose, they are a mobile force that can't be easily hunted down, making getting to a 'friendlier' CSM area or going off on thier own mission easier. And if it's a whole chapter, it's going to take a while to muster the forces you'd need to have a hope of stopping them while they run willy-nilly.

Those are all assumptions.
You'd simply be destroying the elite, which in a way helps with morale as fluff wise IG tend to hold the line better when marines are fighting by their side.

What would the point be in diverting resources from the astartes to Imperial navy? They can both do the same function and astartes tend to do it better with boarding actions and such. If I remember correctly High Marshal Helbrecht was the one in charge of the Imperial fleet fighting over Armageddon, just an example.

So why not send the resources and effort put into Imperial Navy and IG to the astartes to have even more chapters? Because it would be stupid, that's why, same as doing the opposite.
The Imperium needs both astartes and IG.

And truth be told currently the Imperium has more than enough resources to keep these numbers up.
Plus I thon't really think that IG numbers are stagnant, they increase everyday, and if they increase its because there's enough spare equipment for such hence your point becomes obsolete.

The Astartes do BOARDING ACTIONS better, but then arguably any power armored troops could do the same... IE Sisters, whom are seemingly designed for such close-ranged combat as boarding and urban warfare, unlike Marines whom are adapted to all kinds of warfare.

As for the rest of naval warfare, the Imperial Navy does everything else better than the Astartes.

Emperors Faithful wrote:I'm actually of the opinion that the Imperium could like work better with fewer Space Marine chapters, and certainly a mountainload of restrictions placed upon them.

The bare resources and manpower just to equip a single SM chapter with wargear, defences and a fleet(!) is monumental. You could likely muster segmentum fleet with those resources alone. Their independance is a problem as well, many CSM are not still the same fighters from the Horus Heresy. Swathes of them are small warbands or even entire chapters of SM that have gone rouge. In essence, the Imperium is providing the only major source of new CSM recruits.

I know this post is going to result in heavy SM lover outrage, but IMHO, the resources dedicated to the founding of many new SM chapters would be better spent on the strengthening of more coventional Imperial Guard and Navy forces.


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@Rashim: Mellissia has often quoted or sourced from the Ciaphas Cain books amongst others.


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Oh yeah, the Dark Heresy books. Haven't read those, so I can't confirm.

Space marine outfit themselves.

all the Impierium does is provide a Starter pack of Geneseed and a few ships. another chapter supplies a few Dozen veterans and some equipment.

after that the marines pick a new homeworld as a recruitment center and a nearby Forge world to get supplies from.

power armour may be, relatively, difficult to produce, but its production probably doesn't compare to outfitting billions of guardsmen.


my reference is the SM codex and lexicanum for those who want to know.

Melissia wrote:The Astartes do BOARDING ACTIONS better, but then arguably any power armored troops could do the same... IE Sisters, whom are seemingly designed for such close-ranged combat as boarding and urban warfare, unlike Marines whom are adapted to all kinds of warfare.

As for the rest of naval warfare, the Imperial Navy does everything else better than the Astartes.

Right, the factions in cause were astartes and IG, so no point in bringing sisters into the argument.

As for the rest of naval warfare, Imperial Navy does NOT do everything better than Astartes, their vessels are equivalent, the only navy advantage is firepower in numbers.

And to be honest you seem so obsessed with SoB that you neglect that there the existance of fleet based chapters, of Navy commanders handing over fleet command to Astartes commanders and other likewise events.

Krauser wrote:As for the rest of naval warfare, Imperial Navy does NOT do everything better than Astartes, their vessels are equivalent, the only navy advantage is firepower in numbers.

Exactly as I said: "everything else".

You're so blinded by my supposed fanaticism that you can't see you're agreeing with me

Melissia wrote:

Krauser wrote:As for the rest of naval warfare, Imperial Navy does NOT do everything better than Astartes, their vessels are equivalent, the only navy advantage is firepower in numbers.

Exactly as I said: "everything else".

You're so blinded by my supposed fanaticism that you can't see you're agreeing with me

Can't believe you're trying to use such a vague argument as "everything else", honestely from some of your post I've read I've though arguing with you would be more challenging
As far as I know naval warfare englobes both boarding actions and vessel firefights.
the imperial navy can muster more vessels than a REGULAR chapter hence getting more overall firepower. Absolutely true.

But if you want to talk about fanaticism, well, as one fanatic to another I can tell you that any fleet based chapter (BT for example) they can muster pretty much the same amount of firepower as Imperial Navy.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The bare resources and manpower just to equip a single SM chapter with wargear, defences and a fleet(!) is monumental. You could likely muster segmentum fleet with those resources alone.

Pure speculation, you have no evidence either way to say if a fledling chapter requires more or less resources than a Navy Fleet.

Their independance is a problem as well, many CSM are not still the same fighters from the Horus Heresy. Swathes of them are small warbands or even entire chapters of SM that have gone rogue. In essence, the Imperium is providing the only major source of new CSM recruits.

There are many, many more non-Astartes who turn to the worship of Chaos, the Imperium provides most of them too so your logic here is redundant.

Melissia wrote:The Astartes do BOARDING ACTIONS better, but then arguably any power armored troops could do the same... IE Sisters, whom are seemingly designed for such close-ranged combat as boarding and urban warfare, unlike Marines whom are adapted to all kinds of warfare.

As for the rest of naval warfare, the Imperial Navy does everything else better than the Astartes.

Except that the Sororitas have no real fleet assets to speak of, number only a few thousand across the whole Imperium and are not concerned with these kinds of actions anyway being as they are a form of religious police and not a true military force.

As for the Navy, they are supposed to be better than the Astartes, that was Guilliman's intention afterall.

Grey Templar wrote:...another chapter supplies a few Dozen veterans and some equipment.

That's just fan speculation.

after that the marines pick a new homeworld as a recruitment center and a nearby Forge world to get supplies from.

Unless they're a fleet based chapter of course.


All of these arguments are based on Materialistic and Rationalist points of view when the Imperium and its various bodies function based on faith and convention and in military terms the tenets of the Codex Astartes.

Also Space Marines foundings take place only when necessary, ie when conventional Naval or Guard battlegroups are incapable or not as useful. Chapters are not created at the expense of the Navy or Guard but when the High Lords determine they are needed.

Emperors Faithful wrote: Firstly, you could almost double the size of the Imperial Navy by rediriecting the construction of SM ships into the Navy.

Has the imperial navy to few ships?
Or just unable captains so they suffer unneccessary losses.
Also, how about a source of the amount of new space marine ships. IIRC the space marine vessels were old in every single piece of fluff. There must be new to replace losses. But arguing unknown numbers would allow to redirect enough ressources to double the
size of the Imperial navy?

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Instead of better Guardsmen, I'd be arguing for MOAR!!!

More?
Did Tactica Imperialis change to a RTS-source book?
The Imperium does have enough Guardsmen. Rulebook,5th ed, page 138. Nice map of the IG's strongholds/recrutement.
Count the numbers and then we may speak again.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
an Imperial ship that rebels can't resupply or secure resources as they have no form of actually aquiring or securing the materials needed planetside.

On the contrary, planetary officials have to support the long range patrols of the imperial navy.
Ships generally pick up new crews and supplys on their course. They are not restricted to the naval bases.
I suggest "Relentless" a book about an imperial cruiser and his officers rebelling against their new captain.

Gogsnik wrote:Except that the Sororitas have no real fleet assets to speak of, number only a few thousand across the whole Imperium and are not concerned with these kinds of actions anyway being as they are a form of religious police and not a true military force.

1: That is apparently not an issue, seeing as Sororitas travel and deploy throughout the galaxy in many wars of faith and Imperial crusades. That we do not know how they do so is irrelevant to the fact that they do. Examples being 1000 Sisters taking over 100 worlds in C:WH in a single crusade. This would have taken a lot of space travel.

2: You're taking the bare minimum interpretation of the numbers. However, no such exact numbers are given. I personally believe there are tens of millions of Sisters in the galaxy, if not more. After all, the Sisters are the army of the Ecclesiarchy, and wherever the Imperium is, so, too are the agents of the Ecclesiarchy. And as there is no upper limit to the number of Sisters, I estimate that in order to truly enforce the Ecclesiarchy's will across the galaxy, there would need to be this many at a bare minimum... even a minor shrine in the Calixis subsector had twenty Battle Sisters not including novitiates, and it wasn't even a base for the Militant Orders (it was a training facility for the Sisters Famulous). A few thousand Sisters makes no sense, and while you can choose to interpret it that way, it's very illogical given the purpose of the Sisters-- to protect the faithful and propogate the Imperial Church's Wars of Faith (including the various Imperial crusades such as the Sabbat Worlds crusade, and defense of worlds such as Cadia).

3: Then you are ignorant of their fluff. Wherever there are heretics, Sisters can be there killing them. Wherever there are xenos threatening the lives and spiritual purity of the Imperium's citizens, the Sisters can be there killing them. Wherever the warp's minions show their vile presence, the Sisters can be there killing them. Whether or not these heretics are in space, or on the ground, it does not matter. Indeed, the Sisters are actually equipped specifically for fighting in the void, it even says so in C:WH (in describing their helmets).

On the importance/notability of Space Marines:

I think there is evidence that at least the big figures of the Space Marines are pretty well known amongst the normal populace. I can't speak for other figures specifically by at the very least the Space Wolves Codex has this to say about Logan Grimnar

To say that Logan is popular is to say the stars in the night sky are plentiful. He is warrior king of the space wolves, a wise and cunning leader of men whose adulation borders upon worship on many Imperial Worlds.

This seems to hint at the fact that Imperial Worlds are not only aware of the Space Marines, but certain particular notable individuals attain somewhat celebrity status. I suppose it's possible that Logan and the Wolves are the one great exception to the rule but seeing as how they're a chapter that's on the fringe of Imperial acceptably it seems to me a mainstream chapter would have an even greater following.

Actually Wolves have always been pretty popular IIRC, because they tended to be nicer and less arrogant than many Marine chapters or something like that. Something about them working well with Guard (even if they don't work well with the Inquisition, most Marine chapters tend not to anyway).

Melissia wrote:Actually Wolves have always been pretty popular IIRC, because they tended to be nicer and less arrogant than many Marine chapters or something like that. Something about them working well with Guard (even if they don't work well with the Inquisition, most Marine chapters tend not to anyway).

True, there was this inferno comic where a group of SW helped the remains of a Valhalla force escaping from tyranids, even tough they lost some marines they were committed to save the guardsmen.

It's part of the reason I actually kinda like the Wolves.

some chapters are more involved with the people they protect then others.


the Wolves are sworn allies of a Navigator house and they protect all of the worlds in their sector with regular patrols(SW omnibus)

the Ultramarines rule an entire subsector by themselves.(Codex)

Dark angels maintain small Garrisons on each recruiting world.(Angels of Darkness)

most Planet based marines probably rule the actual planet in a similer fashion. the codex says planets under marine rule or protection are exempt from Impierial tithes.


other chapters are less involved.

Mortificators probably don't care much.

Black templars are always on the move although they ocassionally show up at a long abandoned Stronghold to get something(Heroes of the Space Marines)

Mind you, I've seen stories of Black Templars slaughtering anyone taht was in their stronghold, loyalist or otherwise, when they returned.

Melissia wrote:Actually Wolves have always been pretty popular IIRC, because they tended to be nicer and less arrogant than many Marine chapters or something like that. Something about them working well with Guard (even if they don't work well with the Inquisition, most Marine chapters tend not to anyway).

Amen to that. If I may put forth my own opinion, I think the popularity of the SMs depends heavily on the chapter.
For example, the Space Wolves and Imperial Fists are, I think, very well known and loved by the populace, due to (respectively) the legends of the Wolves' garrulousness when fighting alongside Guard and the Fists' reputation for being courageous in the extreme. Other chapters, such as the Flesh Tearers, have spread an element of mistrust amongst the worlds of the Imperium due to their questionable tactics and the collateral damage they cause.

As to the Guard vs. Marine argument, I think perhaps it's a little irrelevant, as they are designed to do different jobs. If I may use the British Army as an example, the Guard are like the standard regiments of troopers, who will ultimately do most of the fighting, whereas the SMs are the equivalent of the SAS, only deployed for specialist or particularly important missions that a normal regiment could not do. I may be wrong there, but that's how I've always seen it.

Grey Templar wrote:some chapters are more involved with the people they protect then others.


the Wolves are sworn allies of a Navigator house and they protect all of the worlds in their sector with regular patrols(SW omnibus)

the Ultramarines rule an entire subsector by themselves.(Codex)

Dark angels maintain small Garrisons on each recruiting world.(Angels of Darkness)

most Planet based marines probably rule the actual planet in a similer fashion. the codex says planets under marine rule or protection are exempt from Impierial tithes.


other chapters are less involved.

Mortificators probably don't care much.

Black templars are always on the move although they ocassionally show up at a long abandoned Stronghold to get something(Heroes of the Space Marines)

True, also Crimson Fists in Rynn's World. Even though in some passages you can see an ambivalence in marine attitude towards the population, really well done.

Melissia wrote:Mind you, I've seen stories of Black Templars slaughtering anyone taht was in their stronghold, loyalist or otherwise, when they returned.

I did read pieces of fluff where BT slaughtered an ork warband which settled an abandoned BT keep.

As for BT killing loyalist on their chapter keep I never heard about that and I find it very unlikely for the following reasons:

1) Common populace would never be able to penetrate a marine stronghold defence system;
2) Marines would not occupy a fellow astartes stronghold unless invited or under dire circumstances, even so they'd have to follow protocol and send the servs in the keeps the required codes and so on to gain access;
3) Chapter Keeps are used to either muster crusades or gather neophytes, so other chapters, IG and population have no business there;
4) Chapter Keeps are always manned even if only by serfs so, how in the world would Imperial forces have access to the Keep unless invited, allowed or by force?

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
As to the Guard vs. Marine argument, I think perhaps it's a little irrelevant, as they are designed to do different jobs. If I may use the British Army as an example, the Guard are like the standard regiments of troopers, who will ultimately do most of the fighting, whereas the SMs are the equivalent of the SAS, only deployed for specialist or particularly important missions that a normal regiment could not do. I may be wrong there, but that's how I've always seen it.

Pretty much my opinion. Different tools for different tasks.

Krauser wrote:As for BT killing loyalist on their chapter keep I never heard about that and I find it very unlikely for the following reasons:

There was a note in either one of the White Dwarf articles or somewhere in Dark Heresy's various fluff tidbits about a group of monks who had used a BT stronghold as a monastery, and were putting themselves in danger in case the BTs ever came back to use that stronghold again.

Melissia wrote:

Krauser wrote:As for BT killing loyalist on their chapter keep I never heard about that and I find it very unlikely for the following reasons:

There was a note in either one of the White Dwarf articles or somewhere in Dark Heresy's various fluff tidbits about a group of monks who had used a BT stronghold as a monastery, and were putting themselves in danger in case the BTs ever came back to use that stronghold again.

Never read that, thanks for bringing it to my attention.
I'm going to have a look through my WD stash see if I find anything about it

Mind you, I'm no expert on Black Templars. The fact that the BTs apparently fought the Daughters of the Emperor inside of the Emperor's palace at the end of the Age of Apostasy was news to me when I learned of it a couple months ago-- it was never mentioned anywhere in Sisters fluff, despite being a rather important point in their founding...

Well, BT were my first army, been playing for 11 or so years, I got most of the works about BT, WD, codices, comics and so on and I never found that piece you mentioned.

Given the templar zealous nature it would be possible for something like that to happen, but there again it would be odd for them to attack someone spreading the Imperial creed. But this is GW, so we never know how they'll twist the fluff.


Compared to GW tzeench is nothing but a toddler, GW is the real changer. xD

Melissia wrote:Mind you, I'm no expert on Black Templars. The fact that the BTs apparently fought the Daughters of the Emperor inside of the Emperor's palace at the end of the Age of Apostasy was news to me when I learned of it a couple months ago-- it was never mentioned anywhere in Sisters fluff, despite being a rather important point in their founding...

They had to enlighten them.
But it was part of codex BT that Black Templars fougth at terra at the end of the apostasy.

1hadhq wrote:

Melissia wrote:Mind you, I'm no expert on Black Templars. The fact that the BTs apparently fought the Daughters of the Emperor inside of the Emperor's palace at the end of the Age of Apostasy was news to me when I learned of it a couple months ago-- it was never mentioned anywhere in Sisters fluff, despite being a rather important point in their founding...

They had to enlighten them.
But it was part of codex BT that Black Templars fougth at terra at the end of the apostasy.

That piece of fluff is actually older than the BT codex. It became widely know with the release of the codex.

And yet, the Daughters of the Emperor fended the BTs off for months before Alicia Dominica was led before the throne, and then ended the Age of Apostasy

Melissia wrote:And yet, the Daughters of the Emperor fended the BTs off for months before Alicia Dominica was led before the throne, and then ended the Age of Apostasy

Well, they were barricaded in a fortified position which would probably have some of the best defences in the Empire. The BT only had one crusade there and still managed to breach the defences.

My guess is if the Custodes hadn't intervened we wouldn't have SoB now

Or we might not have Black Templars now

Like I've said, there was only 1 crusade there while the sister forces were amassed there.

They weren't Sisters when that happened. They were trained and skilled yes, but there was no evidence that the Daughters of the Emperor had any actual war experience at the time. And yet, they still held the BTs off.

I am aware of that, SoB were formed after the leading sister was taken to the golden throne and had the visions and stuff. Still if they had all died there would be no SoB now.

But there's no point in arguing about what could have happened. Each will have its views with little or no fluff to back it up.

The inquisitor is really the factor which decides whether or not the war is 'secret'. An example is in the Eisenhorn omnibus, where they (Inquisitors) go on a parade with some Marines (white scars iirc). However in the book Grey Knights (by Ben counter) it says that Inquisitors are very rarely known about, so the war is quite secret Also, in the Daemonhunters codex, marines get peeved with Inquisitors for their wholesale destruction of Imperial Citizens who are far away from Daemonic Incursions.

And while I'm here, I might as well point out -
-The imperium would be destroyed if either the astartes or the guard left
-Most marine ships are pre-heresy
-Marines are better scouts/infiltraters compared to guardsmen (there's a bit in Chapter's due where a squad of Chaos marines are on the lookout on a castles wall. They're being watched by a ultrasmurf sniper scout. Then bam! They all disappear, and are like wtf? They have an auspex but they dont get it. Raven Guard ftw )
-Whoever said the imperium supplies chaos marines, they supply the mortal followers to.
-And while i'm at it....lots of soritas fall to chaos (GK omnibus by Ben Counter).

Edit: In the same omnibus, it says that whilst marines are a regular feature in stories, and like, everyone is like OMG MARINES! There are naught but a few rumours about the shady inquisitors . And Black Templars are cool. They proved that at Montisgard (my respect for the sisters also went up there too )

Krauser wrote:

Melissia wrote:Actually Wolves have always been pretty popular IIRC, because they tended to be nicer and less arrogant than many Marine chapters or something like that. Something about them working well with Guard (even if they don't work well with the Inquisition, most Marine chapters tend not to anyway).

True, there was this inferno comic where a group of SW helped the remains of a Valhalla force escaping from tyranids, even tough they lost some marines they were committed to save the guardsmen.

Actually, those guys were Solvakians from the future!

Interrogator Savaul is pretty open about his kapowness in And They Shall Know No Fear

Meanwhile Inquisitor Vail was very secretive about her own position in the Cain series.

Melissia wrote:
1: That is apparently not an issue, seeing as Sororitas travel and deploy throughout the galaxy in many wars of faith and Imperial crusades. That we do not know how they do so is irrelevant to the fact that they do. Examples being 1000 Sisters taking over 100 worlds in C:WH in a single crusade. This would have taken a lot of space travel.

Rubbish.

Wars of Faith, as you must know, are declared by the Ecclesiarchy and the Sororitas fight on its behalf, spearheading assaults. We know that the Ecclesiarchy relies upon the Imperial Navy for transport (in Faith and Fire this reliance is clearly shown) and Frateris Militia get themselves around and/or are raised as necessary closer to the actual world or worlds under attack. We also know that the Sororitas protect pilgrims who travel on civilian space craft. With all that in mind it is logical to conclude that the Ecclesiarchy and hence the Sororitas are able to command/persuade or rely on the Imperial Navy or other Imperial vessels in order to travel throughout the Imperium.

Also, your example does not support your argument. You say that it was a Crusade when it was in fact a War of Faith and I don't believe I need to point out the major differences between the two to you. You also say that they 'took over' 100 worlds when they in fact liberated 100 worlds and so we cannot know just how much assistance was rendered by those worlds to ensure their liberation. The example itself is placed firmly within the context of actions taken by the Sororitas at the behest of the Ordo Hereticus meaning that such actions are never even written about in Imperial histories so who can truly attest to just what the Sororitas did or did not actually achieve.

2: You're taking the bare minimum interpretation of the numbers. However, no such exact numbers are given.

No I'm not and even if I were you contradict yourself in your next point by saying no such exact numbers are given so how exactly might I take the bare minimum if there are none?

In any case you are wrong, there are some exact numbers and I quote, 'On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred... ...at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now numbers between 3,000 and 4,000...' Such figures would mean twenty thousand plus Sororitas currently with the number increasing at times.

I personally believe there are tens of millions of Sisters in the galaxy, if not more.

Your personal beliefs are irrelevant, ignore the background and are ridiculous.

...even a minor shrine in the Calixis subsector had twenty Battle Sisters not including novitiates, and it wasn't even a base for the Militant Orders (it was a training facility for the Sisters Famulous).

Yeah, Sisters Famulous whose duties are to arrange marriages and make sure the nobility don't get up to any hanky panky and you interpret twenty of them to indicate, contrary to the background, that there are millions of Sisters Militant; you are after all arguing this point based on your perception of how many Sororitas are needed to prosecute the Ecclesiarchy's wars which the Sisters Famulous do not do.

A few thousand Sisters makes no sense...

It makes perfect sense. The Sororitas flaunt the spirit of the Decree Passive but in shadowy and secret negotiation with the newly formed Ordo Hereticus secured their position as the militant wing of the Ecclesiarchy in return for being at the beck and call of the Ordo Hereticus as their Chamber Militant. Also, since the Sororitas are founded from a fanatical warrior cult that seeks purity through battle prowess who only accept the very best candidates it makes sense that they would be as large or as small as their ability to acquire such perfect specimens dictates which currently is less.

...and while you can choose to interpret it that way...

It is not interpretation; it is statement of fact as provided in the background.

3: Then you are ignorant of their fluff.

I am not ignorant of the background at all, quite the contrary, and whilst you are also not ignorant of the background you have been obtuse in your presentation of it to suit your own preferences.

Indeed, the Sisters are actually equipped specifically for fighting in the void.

The Sabbat pattern helm has only been in use since M38. so for at least as long as the Sororitas have used that particular helmet they did not use it and since its integral rebreather is specifically mentions it follows that earlier Sororitas helms were without such a device. Naturally though they would need to be so equipped since they accompany pilgrims as they travel throughout the Imperium, specifically to defend them from alien or piratical attack and they provide a guard for the Black Ships, perhaps prior to the Sabbat helm they were equipped with separate rebreathers although they would have been much less useful in total vacuum.

However, it is not a function given specifically for combat in the void, the description only tells us it is of limited use in total vacuum and so it cannot be logically concluded, given the mountain of evidence against it, that the inclusion of a rebreather means that the Sororitas are specifically intended for space combat above all other concerns as you assert. Compared to the Astartes who not only have superior functionality in their own armour but can survive total vacuum thanks to their modifications (the name Space Marine is adduceable isn't it) are often specifically tasked with patrolling the space lanes with their own fleet which may or may not also be the location of their fortress monastery making them clearly superior warriors in terms of space combat.

Gogsnik wrote:[snip]

1: Nope, not rubbish. That we do not know the Sororitas' mode of transportation between worlds and from space to ground does not mean that they have none. That they use the Imperial Navy is not even necessarily proven, it's an assumption on your part, unless of course you have a citation which I don't know about. If so, please, present it. I'm interested.

2: I didn't contradict myself at any point. If you really think this, then re-read my post, as it is quite clear that I said "bare minimum interpretation. C:WH gives (to paraphrase) the number of Sisters as "many thousands" for major Orders which could be anywhere from say five thousand to a hundreds of thousands, and a couple dozen to many hundreds for minor Orders. There is no actual limit, however, on the number of minor Orders that are in the galaxy, therefor there is technically no upper limit to the number of Sisters in the galaxy. Even if there are but a thousand minor orders scattered throughout shrines and battlefields across the galaxy, each having on average one hundred Sisters, that would put the number at one hundred thousand. That's a LIGHT amount to say the least, because of the huge numbers of shrines and battlefields on the galaxy, nevermind the other purposes for which Sisters are created. I believe, rather, in a much more numerous interpretation of the most recent fluff, which gives the Sisters the proper amount of numbers needed to carry out their duties to the Ecclesiarchy and their occasional service to the Inquisition.

3: Limited use in the void is still plenty enough enough for a firefight in a boarding action, and better than Imperial Guard gets to be sure. An hour of breathing is plenty of time to finish a firefight one way or the other, and then manage to get into a pressurized area to replenish supplies of breathable air.

Melissia wrote:1: Nope, not rubbish. That we do not know the Sororitas' mode of transportation between worlds and from space to ground does not mean that they have none. That they use the Imperial Navy is not even necessarily proven, it's an assumption on your part, unless of course you have a citation which I don't know about. If so, please, present it. I'm interested.

It's called the Decree Passive. The fleets raised by Vandire and any other member of the Ministorum were disbanded and seperated and the all naval assets were stripped from the Ministorum.

Thor didn't want the Ministorum to have no teeth at all which is why he established the Adepta Sororitas, to get around the Decree Passive. The Minstorum does have dedicated elite infantry but nothing else; well they aren't supposed to have anything else and offically they don't but sometimes a rogue Cardinal gets a few ships together but that is rare.

2: I didn't contradict myself at any point. If you really think this, then re-read my post, as it is quite clear that I said "bare minimum interpretation. C:WH gives (to paraphrase) the number of Sisters as "many thousands" for major Orders which could be anywhere from say five thousand to a hundreds of thousands, and a couple dozen to many hundreds for minor Orders. There is no actual limit, however, on the number of minor Orders that are in the galaxy, therefor there is technically no upper limit to the number of Sisters in the galaxy. Even if there are but a thousand minor orders scattered throughout shrines and battlefields across the galaxy, each having on average one hundred Sisters, that would put the number at one hundred thousand. That's a LIGHT amount to say the least, because of the huge numbers of shrines and battlefields on the galaxy, nevermind the other purposes for which Sisters are created. I believe, rather, in a much more numerous interpretation of the most recent fluff, which gives the Sisters the proper amount of numbers needed to carry out their duties to the Ecclesiarchy and their occasional service to the Inquisition.

Come off it, the Major Orders only ever manage to raise several thousand warriors, specific figures presented to you, but the Minor Orders are limitless? Bah! And to quote Codex Witch Hunters, 'The original six orders are by far the most numerous.'

Again I will point out that this is not interpretation but the presentation of the facts as given in the background if you choose to ingore the numbers that's up to you.



And some more quotes that might help to illuminate on the earlier discussions.

Melissia wrote:Mind you, I've seen stories of Black Templars slaughtering anyone taht was in their stronghold, loyalist or otherwise, when they returned.

Codex Black Templars page eight, 'However, such lonely ruins are never forgotten, and it is not unknown for the Black Templars to return to these keeps, much to the dismay of anything foolish enough to have taken up residence to their absence.'

Melissia wrote:...it was never mentioned anywhere in Sisters fluff...

Codex Sisters of Battle page thirteen.

Melissia wrote:And yet, the Daughters of the Emperor fended the BTs off for months before Alicia Dominica was led before the throne, and then ended the Age of Apostasy

At the time it was the Brides of the Emperor not the Daughters of the Emperor.

After Vandire tricked the Daughters into becoming his bodyguard/enforcers/assassins/executioners/entertainment he had them retrained by the best 'teachers' of the Imperial Guard and re-equpped with the most modern weaponry. It seems unlikely that they were equipped with powered armour at this time although it is not mentioned either way but certainly they were as well equipped as the Guard and probably more so given their elite status.

The Daughters of the Emperor came to Vandire's attention early in the Reign of Blood and it was seventy years before news of Thor reached Vandire so presumably the Brides of the Emperor were combat veterans of many decades, some perhaps of six decades plus. At any rate they were well used to commiting murder upon Vandire's command.

When the assault on Terra came it was lead by regiments of the Martian Tech Guard by the order of the Fabricator-General Gestaph Hedriatix who were joined by an indeterminate number of Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers and Black Templars (although the Black Templar Codex uses the word chapters so quite a few perhaps).

These forces first had to get past Vandire's fleets and armies and then they had to breach the central complex of the 'almost impregnable' Ecclesiarchal palace defended by ten thousand Brides of the Emperor and roughly six thousand of these were killed. The corridors of the palace were said to be littered with the dead so the hundreds of thousands of warriors that Vandire commanded presumably got butchered to a man but there eventual fate isn't described.

Melissia wrote: Limited use in the void is still plenty enough enough for a firefight in a boarding action, and better than Imperial Guard gets to be sure. An hour of breathing is plenty of time to finish a firefight one way or the other, and then manage to get into a pressurized area to replenish supplies of breathable air.

Yes, but you are missing the point a bit, I think. The point he was making is that Astartes would be better in this role as ship's troops, as it is one of the roles they are designed for. Heck, in the fluff, Terminator armour is said to have been designed for boarding actions and other close-quarter firefights. The sisterhood, as I have always understood it, was there to provide both a defensive force for the Shrine worlds as well as footsoldiers for the Inquisition, which is why they have such elite equipment, and thus would not be specifically dedicated to a ship-to-ship fighting role.

Yes... IF you can get any, and IF you can convince them to do so.

Melissia wrote:

Rashim wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Rashim: Mellissia has often quoted or sourced from the Ciaphas Cain books amongst others.

I'm not arguing his citation. I'm saying that I was irked by him asking for citation from other people, and them just blowing him off or /ignoring him.

I was asking for SPECIFIC citations. Saying "I cite the fluff in general" isn't helpful in any way whatsoever, and therefor I ignore it.

I used the Ciaphas Cain books because they actually show some interaction with the populace, whereas most Marine books do not. And Dark Heresy is, of course, a very good reference for anything civilian related and the operation of the Inquisition in general at the lower levels (And yes, it is canon, it was worked on by Dan Abnett and Andy Hoare amongst others).

Also, SHE.

My bad, my bad. Melissia could be a guys name too

I also agree with you. Almost all of my posts have been "Hey, Melissia is right, citation pl0x." I was in debate from Junior High - Highschool, and even if my current knowledge of 40k fluff disagrees with something you say, I still agree with you that citation is needed. I'm personally hoping that I will learn something from this giant cluster feth of walls o'texts.

I don't see why you and emperor's faithful keep seeing my posts as me targeting ya'll. I'm trying to do the opposite, but apparently I'm doing it wrong 0.o

Also, if it matters to you two, I've come to see your side of the debate, and have been swayed. My previous metaphor of hand and scalpel no long holds complete in my mind. While the SM's are important, the IG is the buffer that lets them be important, ergo IG > SM. Being a hardcore DA fan, this is hard to admit, but it is true.


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Also, the DA's being their for the populace on their recruitment worlds is laughable. While they are their, they really aren't helping much less caring all that much. Most recruitment stations only have a squad of space marines there. *Need to look for the Citation in Angels of Darkness*

Also, the Argument made for the Space Marines ships being equivalent to Imperial Navy ships is false. When Rowboat Girlyman was about making the Codex Astartes, the High Lords specifically stripped the Marines of their abilities to have large scale navy support. Space Marine Battle Barges would get NUKED by just about any major Ship Class in the Imperial Navy. *Citation needed from both Codex Astartes, Battlefleet Gothic, and HH Novels(To show that they used to have the ability to field them)*

While the Imperial Navy is effectively at a Space Marine Commanders beck and call in active war zones (LOL, pissed off Navy Commanders in BL canon make me laugh), they aren't the Space Marines own Naval Support.

The only two chapters AFAIK that don't obey this are the Dark Angels (We DAngels are pompus donkey-caves ) and the Black Templar, the only 2 Major fleet based chapters. This is probably because they have no home world they call their own (Complete speculation).

Grey Templar wrote:
Space marine outfit themselves.

all the Impierium does is provide a Starter pack of Geneseed and a few ships. another chapter supplies a few Dozen veterans and some equipment.

True for some sucessor chapters. Many aren't as lucky to have a SM Chapter do charity for them.

after that the marines pick a new homeworld as a recruitment center and a nearby Forge world to get supplies from.

You make this sound ridiculously easy.

power armour may be, relatively, difficult to produce, but its production probably doesn't compare to outfitting billions of guardsmen.

1000+ Power armour, Fortress, Vehichles, Fleet, Wargear, Special facilities for geneseed < Outfitting 1 billion guardsmen.

my reference is the SM codex and lexicanum for those who want to know.

Good lad.

Gogsnik wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:The bare resources and manpower just to equip a single SM chapter with wargear, defences and a fleet(!) is monumental. You could likely muster segmentum fleet with those resources alone.

Pure speculation, you have no evidence either way to say if a fledling chapter requires more or less resources than a Navy Fleet.

True dat. Shameless hyperbole on my part.

Their independance is a problem as well, many CSM are not still the same fighters from the Horus Heresy. Swathes of them are small warbands or even entire chapters of SM that have gone rogue. In essence, the Imperium is providing the only major source of new CSM recruits.

There are many, many more non-Astartes who turn to the worship of Chaos, the Imperium provides most of them too so your logic here is redundant.

These are nowhere near as much a threat, and not just becuase of thier equipment/training/lack-of-superpowers. See IG codex.

Melissia wrote:The Astartes do BOARDING ACTIONS better, but then arguably any power armored troops could do the same... IE Sisters, whom are seemingly designed for such close-ranged combat as boarding and urban warfare, unlike Marines whom are adapted to all kinds of warfare.

As for the rest of naval warfare, the Imperial Navy does everything else better than the Astartes.

IMO, regularily putting SoB on Navy ships is dangerous and goes straight in the face of the Decree Passive.

Also Space Marines foundings take place only when necessary, ie when conventional Naval or Guard battlegroups are incapable or not as useful. Chapters are not created at the expense of the Navy or Guard but when the High Lords determine they are needed.

I thought they were done in large swathes over periods of time? (3rd, 4th founding) Or is it now done singularily?

1hadhq wrote:IIRC the space marine vessels were old in every single piece of fluff. There must be new to replace losses.

For fluff reasons most ships will be described as (and often are) incredibly ancient. Most chapters ships will be as old as the chapter itself. Very few ships are made, the technology for most makes is slowly being lost over time. Instead, losses are scavenged and rebuilt, which is what makes hulks so valuable.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Instead of better Guardsmen, I'd be arguing for MOAR!!!

More?
Did Tactica Imperialis change to a RTS-source book?
The Imperium does have enough Guardsmen. Rulebook,5th ed, page 138. Nice map of the IG's strongholds/recrutement.
Count the numbers and then we may speak again.

That's cute, actually thinking that there are ever enough guardsmen.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
an Imperial ship that rebels can't resupply or secure resources as they have no form of actually aquiring or securing the materials needed planetside.

On the contrary, planetary officials have to support the long range patrols of the imperial navy.
Ships generally pick up new crews and supplys on their course. They are not restricted to the naval bases.
I suggest "Relentless" a book about an imperial cruiser and his officers rebelling against their new captain.