40k Canon seems to say that the two missing legions and primarchs are lost.

But are they?

I'm reading Mechanicum right now, and in the Emperor's Palace, Dorn and the Sigilite are discussing Horus' treachery. The Sigilite says, "You have thirteen legions to Horus' three."

Dorn muses outloud and says, "I would fee so much better with fifteen legions...."

And the Sigilite says, "Don't even dare think it. They're lost to us forever."

--------------------------------------------------------------

That makes it sound as if the other two legions COULD be recalled or used, that their fate is known, but that there is something terribly wrong with them.

I'm guessing that one of them is the Legion of the Damned. The other? No idea.

L. Wrex

Something similiar is said in The Lightning tower and I would say that quote implies the Legions cannot be recalled. "Lost forever" is pretty definitive.

The Fact of deleted info (probably done at the highest level of command - the emperor himself) and the few bits about them lost
forever and the lack of hints in the HH series would point at those legions lost pre-heresy.

I doubt they could be recalled, but who knows? Background is already titled time of ending and maybe those lost legions become
found legions to save the day?

I don't play WHFB but I read up quite a bit that the one hero of the Empire, Sigmar, is actually one of the two lost primarchs and that the planet WHFB takes place on is actually a planet in the 40k universe concealed by the eye of terror preventing interaction.

What that means for the legion that would be associated with him... no idea.

I really doubt though that they'd ever bring those two into the fluff just because they're left blank so people can make up a founding legion for themselves to play. Probably GW never even came up with any kind of background for them other than they're "lost forever" because of just that.

No, WHFB isn't based in the 40k universe, I'm pretty sure this has been confirmed.

Legion of the Damned were actually originally a chapter called Hawk Fire something or something. They were 2nd founding, I believe.

Grey Knights were 2nd founding too, so not them either.

There are alot of hints in the HH books, some suggest that the Lost Legions have been assembled and there Primarchs were actually found, like the quote Dash posted.

But when the Chaos Gods are showing Horus what happened when him and his Primarch brothers were scattered over the universe, Horus places his hand on the 11th Tank thing containing the Primarchs (It's the 11th right?) and he can see the "possible glories never won and the lost potential" something like that.

It all comes down to the fact that GW are giving people two legions to make, so you can your own Legion up without going completely anti-fluff.

The missing primarchs were found by the Emperor as it is stated that he met all 20 and Alpharius was nicknamed "The Last" because we was, well, the last to be found. Also, before the Heresy statues of all 20 primarchs were built at the Imperial palace, but by the time Horus invaded 2 and 11 and been gone for a long time.

This suggests that the missing primarchs were lost as babies, found and reunited with the Imperium but lost again for unknown reasons, although it sounds almost like they were excommunicated. So yes, I'd say they are still lost (re-lost?).

Also, I think the connection to WHFB is tenuous as all the primarchs were found at one point. Perhaps (this is pure specualtion) one of the missing primarchs is considered lost because he returned to the WHFB world?

Horus also, if I recall correctly, damages one of the tanks. (The eleventh?) Also, when he witnesses the primarchs' birthing chambers being pulled into the warp, I do believe that he hears one of them dying.

Here's the thing about the two missing legions that has always piqued my interest. All information pertaining to them has been removed.

Yet Horus is still listed.

Horus, and his allies, turned to Chaos, abandoned the great crusade, betrayed their Emperor, sought to destroy/defile mankind, and in all other ways did everything that one could conceive of to cement their reputations as bad guys. But they are still on the big list of legions.

What the hell did the other two legions do? Or, what became of them? I have heard some very interesting theories. One of my favorites is that the Legion of the Damned is in fact one of the lost legions. Their Primarch did, in fact, die. However, like all Primarchs, he conquered or rose to a position of authority in the land in which he had been lost to. (In his case, the afterlife.) Somehow, the Emperor contacted him, and decided it would be best if he were left alone.

But after the Heresy, and seeing the dark turn the Imperium had taken, this Primarch gathered together the souls of slain Marines, and took them as members of his Legion. The Legion of the Damned.

BTW, Lord-loss: Where did you read about the LoD being a lost chapter (Hawk fire, I believe you said)? That would be something I would like to check out.

As a point of clarification, although the Grey Knights are indeed second founding, I am left to understand that they are not a splinter group of one of the loyalist legions, but are in fact the remnants of the traitor legions, the ones who returned to Terra rather than join in Horus's treachery. (Those who weren't killed on Istvaan III, that is.)

But I am still hung up on whatever happened to the other two legions. Did they do something to betray mankind, something worse than Horus? Why erase all mention of them? Is it something so embarassing that the Imperium couldn't stand to have anyone know? Or so dangerous that they couldn't risk anyone finding out? Did they suffer losses which, if known, would reveal a hitherto unknown Achilles heel for the Space Marines or the Imperium itself?

Although, OP, I do agree with you. Dorn's comments make it seem as if Dorn is of the opinion that the two lost legions could be recovered. The Sigilite's response seems to indicate either A) he knows part of the story that Dorn doesn't, and recovery is in fact impossible, or B) he knows part of the story that Dorn doesn't, knows recover IS possible, but doesn't want anyone else to know that. For whatever reason...

Interesting stuff.

The Legion of the Damned is indeed the fire hawks. They were lost in the warp. Part of the 21st cursed founding. Look up 21st cursed founding: pretty much bad things happened to all of them

Wow...just read the online LoD rundown.

Words fail me.

This is atrocious.

Rick Priestley needs to be fired. And banned from writing anything.

Ever.

Jim, I see you just realized the truth of the Legion of the Damned.

You might feel let down, but now the missing legions are even more mysterious as your favored theory just got sunk. Also, the two legions were considered lost long before Horus' treachery which could explain why they are so thoroughly forgotten. It also hints that their reason for disappearing is something entirely different than rebellion (since Horus' betrayal was considered so unthinkable).

Like I said on another thread the two lost Primarchs were eaten by Space Tigers when they were babies.

Lord-Loss wrote:No, WHFB isn't based in the 40k universe, I'm pretty sure this has been confirmed.

Under the current 40k/WHFB retcon, that's correct. But back in the day, it absolutely was the case... You used to be able to buy Amazons with Bolters and Needlers. There's an old picture of the "Slann in Space" inn. There's discussion of the Old Ones changing the WHFB world to suite their needs which also explained why the WHFB world "looks" like Earth (which they also changed).

And there was a hint that Sigmar was a "lost" Primarch.

But, yeah... GW's gone away from that version of the fluff.


Valete,

JohnS

"Legion" implies that they were at one point part of the imperium, which goes against the idea of them trying to fight the emperor for his place...

IDK, I got nothing, other than that they are just there so you can make your own.

I'm not so much disappointed that the LoD isn't one of the two lost legions. I could have dealt with that.

But, the Fire Hawks? I read their background. It's very...I don't know...blah. Nothing about it stood out as impressive or unique. With them being so impressive in their description in the latest Codex, I expected their actual background to be equally impressive, and I feel as if I have been let down. I don't want to go on one of those internet tirades that you see in some forums, spouting "witty" drivel and repeating myself endlessly.

It just seems a little silly to me, that's all.

Sigh.

Oh well, back to speculating about the lost two legions...

Why? It couldn't have been a famous chapter or anything. That's their claim to fame: getting lost in the warp and becoming weird-deamon-spectre-marine guys.

Before I tell you my idea of the two lost legions, I first want to say that this is not a theory. This is simply part of a story I intend to write about the lost legions for later.

Here's my idea: The Emperor did not find Horus first. He found the two lost primarchs first upon the same planet. And the two of them, when together, shared immense psychic powers. One ability was predicting the future.

When they met the Emperor, they had a vision of what would happen to the Imperium. They never told the Emperor the entire truth, only that the Imperium would burn.

Worried, the Emperor quickly gave his two sons command of their legions. Then, he gave them their Expeditionary Fleets and their mission: go out to another galaxy and begin the Imperium anew. That way, the Emperor's goals of mankind united would remain strong.

Given their fleets, their legions, and as much resources as they needed, the two lost primarchs set out to a new galaxy to begin the building of the Imperium across the universe.

Again, this is just my idea, specifically for my future potential story

@ ShadowAngel: *raises eyebrow* should be an interesting read.
@everyone else: The worst part is that we shall never ever know because as we know, Grimdark barely continues (story-wise) :(

CrazyThang wrote:@ ShadowAngel: *rasies eyebrow* should be an interesting read.

+1

I would definatly read it.

@ShadowAngel - I like that theory for your story. Sounds very interesting and it fits into everything we do know about those legions.

And yes, we all understand that what happened to the two legions will NEVER be officially revealed. It is intended to be that way.

Hrm.

The conversation isn't picking up on what I thought was interesting.

While the Sigilite says, "They are lost to us forever," he prefaces with "Don't dare think about it."

IE, Dorn was musing about having 15 legions instead of 13. He was wondering if he should recall the 2nd and 11th legion, allying with them, or something - in that he has some definite means of gaining access to them, and the Sigilite warns him against it.

This is why I'm so interested - their records are deleted and expunged, but at least one primarch seems to know how to get access to them, although doing so is apparently unthinkable.

In A Thousand Sons there is a little blurb when Ahriman is speaking with Lemuel.

"There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial History"

Lemuel shook his head

"Thats the thing about history, he said. 'It has a habit of remembering the things you would like to forget. No one can erase that much there will always be some record"

"Dont be so sure Lemuel, The Emporers wrath is a terrible thing"



Sounds to me like Ahriman knows about it to. Pre-heresy as well.

I was agreeing with you wholeheartedly Dash. (If getting a bit off topic in my rant about the Fire Hawks.) I think Dorn's comments indicate that he absolutely thought the other two legions were in reach. It's the Sigillite's response that I find interesting.

Dashofpepper wrote:40k Canon seems to say that the two missing legions and primarchs are lost.

But are they?

I'm reading Mechanicum right now, and in the Emperor's Palace, Dorn and the Sigilite are discussing Horus' treachery. The Sigilite says, "You have thirteen legions to Horus' three."

Dorn muses outloud and says, "I would fee so much better with fifteen legions...."

And the Sigilite says, "Don't even dare think it. They're lost to us forever."

--------------------------------------------------------------

That makes it sound as if the other two legions COULD be recalled or used, that their fate is known, but that there is something terribly wrong with them.

20 legions were created. Two were lost, thus making it 18 legions. Dorn has 13 legions to Horus' 3, which equals 16. I believe the two legions Dorn is thinking about is the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves. Thousand Sons broke the Council of Nikea, and the Space Wolves were sent to snuff them out.

Yes... but neither of those two (well the wolves at least) were lost to them forever, so the Sigilte was probably already taking them into account

We know that at least one of the Primarch's didn't seem to have survived his journey through the Warp, and despite what GW says I still like thinking of Sigmar as the other missing Primarch. (Ever since GW changed Ollanius Pius to a Custodes, I have lost most of my respect for them )

We have to remember that in the 40k universe, everything that GW says is canon...BUT not everything that is canon is true. Half of what is canon could very well be Imperial propaganda or stuff that is otherwise twisted in some horrible horrible way.

Surprised noone has mentioned the Blood Ravens.

I'm no expert on their fluff, but they're always talking about the "lost primarch" or "forgotten primarch" or something. And if they had been second founding or something, one of the first founding legions would have a record. It seems likely that they may have destroyed their own records during the heresy or more likely pre-heresy, and maybe some of them turned heretical or something. I dunno. But I like to think that they make a pretty good plot-hole filler.

Ah you all miss the obvious......
Squats and Fight Club

Two things you should never talk about.

The two lost legions were conceived by GW so hobbyists could make their own backgrounds.

Originally it was thought one was loyalist and one was traitor.

As interesting as that passage in Mechanicum is it's still a fairly throw away use of GW canon.

It keeps us fans thinking.

The LoD and the blood ravens are NOT related to those 2 lost legios.
LoD got their actual place as former Fire hawks.
Blood Ravens got their place as Tsons successor.

IMO, lost doesnt equal destroyed.
Would agree its a matter of lack of access to them.

SO:

20 legions/primarchs created.
18 of them still remembered in M41.
2 of them had their records deleted.
They are lost already at the time when Dorn considers his options to unleash the Legios against the treacherous warmaster.

This leads to:

-the legios and their primarchs were created.
-only one may have the power to delete their records and ban their name.
-they were considered loyal to the emperor, because Dorn wouldn't intend to re-inforce Horus...
-they are lost

=> lost could be: lost contact, maybe an accident. Possibly lost in space or time.
=> lost could be: lost to the great crusade, maybe they refused to accept their dutys ? A primarch rejecting his legion maybe?
=> lost could be: lost to the fluff, GW had to admit they can't imagine more than 18 legios....but had already said 20 are there.

Best bet would be an accident. Using old pre age of strive tech or so. Imperium pretends they never existed to dim the shame..
-

Maybe they were blanks and when the Emperor found out he purged all records to keep everyone from learning about the C'Tan, particularly the Tech-Priests

Yes, the LoD are from the FireHawks, but there is nothing definitive that says the Blood Ravens are 1k Sons succesors, just fun speculation.

As to the OP, it is interesting that at least Dorn seems to know that there is some way to access the lost legions, making them appear as if they aren't totally lost. But Malcador insists they are lost so perhaps the highest authority (the Emprah) ordered them to be forgotten and only the primarchs were privy to why or would dare to try to recontact them.

Well maybe the 2 lost primarchs had the potential to become more powerfull then the emperor. The emperor knew it and killed/banished them and their legions then removed all information about them. So that the human population did not lose trust in their leader.

Or the emperor stationed 2 whole legions and their primarchs at 2 key locations in or out the galaxy. Places so important that recalling them from there would make the heresy look like a bar brawl. And if the public knew what they were guarding galactic uprising would ensue. Bringing the imperium down.

idget wrote:Maybe they were blanks and when the Emperor found out he purged all records to keep everyone from learning about the C'Tan, particularly the Tech-Priests

They most certainly are 'Blanks', but not necessarily in the manner you are suggesting.

Blanks are a Sf/Fantacist term for an area of the plot deliberately let vacant in order to form an air of mystery. A goodf blank is sert up from the beginning and never used. Since the dawn of role playing Blansks also exist so that fans can create their own histories within the blanks without treading on th toes of the main IP. What is in a blank might be nothing or something game breakingly powerful, but it can only break your game, it cannot destroy the internal consistency is blanking is used.

The lost Primarchs are and were Blanks. Mysteries in the plot and at the same time room for 'create your own'.

"Horus realized he would have to hurry his attacks in order to secure Terra in time for him to set up the defenses sufficiently to prevent the arrival of two loyal Space Marine legions which could potentially turn the balance back in the favor of the Emperor."

Would have any help in the situation ?

To be honest I thought GW made the 2 missing ones so that you could make your own legion and it could be good or bad (9 traitors, 9 loyalist) so good add 1 to each.

That was the way I had always thought of it, that they were left in for fans to make their own legion and backstory.

Ironhide wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:40k Canon seems to say that the two missing legions and primarchs are lost.

But are they?

I'm reading Mechanicum right now, and in the Emperor's Palace, Dorn and the Sigilite are discussing Horus' treachery. The Sigilite says, "You have thirteen legions to Horus' three."

Dorn muses outloud and says, "I would fee so much better with fifteen legions...."

And the Sigilite says, "Don't even dare think it. They're lost to us forever."

--------------------------------------------------------------

That makes it sound as if the other two legions COULD be recalled or used, that their fate is known, but that there is something terribly wrong with them.

20 legions were created. Two were lost, thus making it 18 legions. Dorn has 13 legions to Horus' 3, which equals 16. I believe the two legions Dorn is thinking about is the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves. Thousand Sons broke the Council of Nikea, and the Space Wolves were sent to snuff them out.

With the force disposition (13 to 3), this is before the Isstvan Dropsite Massacres.
given the dialogue, it's almost certainly the two lost legions Dorn refers to. The two legions not in Dorn's count (13+3=16) are probably the Thousand Sons and either the Space Wolves or Dark Angels, depending on whether this conversation occurs before or after the Space Wolves are sent for Magnus

The Sons of Horus, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children were known traitors on Isstvan V
These are Horus's 3 that Dorn speaks of

The Death Guard were currently in the Warp, infected by the Destroyer Hive and swearing themselves to Nurgle. News of this had not reached the Imperium yet.
This makes one believed to be loyal

The Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard were loyalists who would be deployed to (and massacred on) Isstvan V
This makes four believed loyal

The Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Alpha Legion were the unknown traitors deployed to Isstvan V
This makes eight believed loyal

The Imperial Fists were garrisoned on Terra and other worlds
Nine loyal

The White Scars, Blood Angels, Ultramarines, were on campaign, but were near enough to arrive at Terra if they were not significantly delayed.
Twelve loyal

If the conversation occurs before Leman Russ is sent to Prospero, the thirteenth "loyal" legion is the Space Wolves, since they are near Terra (because the Emperor sends them to Prospero immediately)

If it is after the Wolves are sic'ed on Magnus, then the thirteenth is the Dark Angels, as the only reason they don't arrive on Terra in time (even though they were the farthest away) is the Night Lords intercept and delay them, inflicting heavy casualties. The Wolves are off chasing Magnus and licking their wounds from Prospero so they won't be effective reinforcements



Bit lengthy I know, but the question really got me wondering. I've got a whole list of what the Legions were doing http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/297408.page here that I compiled to figure this out

SonofTerra wrote:Yes... but neither of those two (well the wolves at least) were lost to them forever, so the Sigilte was probably already taking them into account

Unless the Sigilite didn't think the SW were coming back. If Magnus had told his legion of their impending doom, instead of accepting his fate, the battle would have gone a completely different way. Magnus himself said he would rather only one legion die, so the other may live.

My own thoughts have always been kind of wishlisty that the two legions are doing the 'unthinkable' in Imperial society - working with Xenos. One with the Eldar, the Other With the Necrons - devoted to the study and understanding of the Xenos way in fighting the greatest of enemies, chaos.

Of course, why they weren't recalled during the heresy is an interesting note to that- I've always wanted them to emerge on the eve of the final, most terrible assault of the 'end time' by chaos (and perhaps the nids as well - since being sandwiched between both has to be gakky, and pretty much spell doom) and leading makind to victory, in a Dunesque version of a 'grand vision'.

Either that, or the Emperor really did foresee everything that would happen, heresy included, and decided to pull out two legion under mysterious circumstances, hide 'em someplace safe to build up their forces for 10 or 20 thousand years and then emerge as the reconquering armies of a resurrected Emperor of Mankind, or even the progeny of the Emperor - perhaos a beig born of a union of love, and not merely the psychic potential of all of earths then present shamans and psykers has the true ability to lead mankind into galactic dominance, and utopia


or they just got lost in the warp foreverz, and that's embarrassing.

Guys, I’ve been in the GW hobby since it began in the 80’s and know quite a bit on the background and why things are. First of all, a large amount of the founders of GW were Historical Gamers, so were the players. If you looked at the CV’s of the original GW staff, I bet a lot studied History. When the time came to invent 40k, the backgrounds of most of the races were a mix of real life historical races and Warhammer Races. The inventors drew upon there own historical background and knowledge to create the rich and diverse 40k background we have today. The Space Marines are no exception.

The SM’s background, is based off the Ancient Roman Legions, to which Emperor Caesar and Mark Antony founded, and guess what? There were 20 of them. By the time Agustas came to be the Sole Ruler (30BC) there were many other Legions, to which he disbanded around 50. The Original Legions were:

1. Legio I Germanica
2. Legio II Sabina
3. Legio III Cyrenaica
4. Legio III Gallica
5. Legio IV Macedonica
6. Legio IV Scythica
7. Legio V Alaudae
8. Legio VI Ferrata
9. Legio VII Claudia
10. Legio VIII Augusta:
11. Legio IX Hispana
12. Legio X Equestris, also known as X Equestris
13. Legio X Veneria
14. Legio X Fretensis
15. Legio XI: 58–45 BC, Julius Caesar
16. Legio XII Victrix
17. Legio XII Antiqua
18. Legio XIII Gemina:
19. Legio XVIII Libyca
20. Legio XXX Classica

Now, why are there 18 SM Legions and 2 ‘unknown’ Legions? GW always stated this was so hobbyists could essentially create their own Legions. However, a little more historical references could reveal the true reason………………

At the Revolt of Batvia, the Batavians managed to destroy 2 of the above Legions down to the last man, thus completely erasing them from history! One was Legio V and I can’t remember the other one, think it may have been Legio I. In addition to the 2 destroyed Legions, at least 9 were either disbanded or reconstituted by a mix of Emperor Caesar, and Agustas (and we have 9 Traitor Legions). If you actually read up on the Legions, some had specialities which mirror some of the backgrounds of the SM Legions, E.g., Legio X Equestris was a purely mounted Legion, only fighting from horseback and only fielding cavalry from their Legion – White Scars anyone?

Now I am not saying that GW copied the Roman Legions when creating the SM’s, but given the backgrounds of the people who created the 40k universe back then, historical references to the Roman Army was certainly heavily drawn upon.

And as I own a company of Legion of the Damned, I can confirm that they are the remnants of the Fire Hawks Chapter who were lost in the Warp and contracted a disease.

TheSecretSquig wrote:Guys, I’ve been in the GW hobby since it began in the 80’s and know quite a bit on the background and why things are. First of all, a large amount of the founders of GW were Historical Gamers, so were the players. If you looked at the CV’s of the original GW staff, I bet a lot studied History. When the time came to invent 40k, the backgrounds of most of the races were a mix of real life historical races and Warhammer Races. The inventors drew upon there own historical background and knowledge to create the rich and diverse 40k background we have today. The Space Marines are no exception.

The SM’s background, is based off the Ancient Roman Legions, to which Emperor Caesar and Mark Antony founded, and guess what? There were 20 of them. By the time Agustas came to be the Sole Ruler (30BC) there were many other Legions, to which he disbanded around 50. The Original Legions were:

1. Legio I Germanica
2. Legio II Sabina
3. Legio III Cyrenaica
4. Legio III Gallica
5. Legio IV Macedonica
6. Legio IV Scythica
7. Legio V Alaudae
8. Legio VI Ferrata
9. Legio VII Claudia
10. Legio VIII Augusta:
11. Legio IX Hispana
12. Legio X Equestris, also known as X Equestris
13. Legio X Veneria
14. Legio X Fretensis
15. Legio XI: 58–45 BC, Julius Caesar
16. Legio XII Victrix
17. Legio XII Antiqua
18. Legio XIII Gemina:
19. Legio XVIII Libyca
20. Legio XXX Classica

Now, why are there 18 SM Legions and 2 ‘unknown’ Legions? GW always stated this was so hobbyists could essentially create their own Legions. However, a little more historical references could reveal the true reason………………

At the Revolt of Batvia, the Batavians managed to destroy 2 of the above Legions down to the last man, thus completely erasing them from history! One was Legio V and I can’t remember the other one, think it may have been Legio I. In addition to the 2 destroyed Legions, at least 9 were either disbanded or reconstituted by a mix of Emperor Caesar, and Agustas (and we have 9 Traitor Legions). If you actually read up on the Legions, some had specialities which mirror some of the backgrounds of the SM Legions, E.g., Legio X Equestris was a purely mounted Legion, only fighting from horseback and only fielding cavalry from their Legion – White Scars anyone?

Now I am not saying that GW copied the Roman Legions when creating the SM’s, but given the backgrounds of the people who created the 40k universe back then, historical references to the Roman Army was certainly heavily drawn upon.

And as I own a company of Legion of the Damned, I can confirm that they are the remnants of the Fire Hawks Chapter who were lost in the Warp and contracted a disease.

Just curious, but I thought it was the Roman 9th Legion that got destroyed? Generally, the tale goes that they were ambushed in Scotland, though nowadays it's accepted that they were most likely destroyed during a revolt in Judea.

Interesting. Would have been cool if the two destroyed Roman legions matched the SM lost ones.

I know the mystery of the two missing legions.

So if youre sitting comfortably i will begin.
A long time ago a small british company invented a strange game with "knights" and aliens in it, they even went on to invent numerous alien races and a potential 20 different "knight" legions and all was well in the world. that was until mr X stood up and said "what happens, if in the future we become a big multinational company with a massive fan base?" well understandably everyone was stunned, a big multinational british company in the 80's ha what a joke. so mr Y stood up and said whilst trying to stifle the giggles "i know we will strike the 2nd and 11th "knight legion of the list this will allow both us to produce more ideas when neccesary and will give all the future fanboys out there something to discuss and discuss even though there is no real answer" everyone was in agreement so warhammer 40k was born

THE END

TheSecretSquig wrote:Guys, I’ve been in the GW hobby since it began in the 80’s and know quite a bit on the background and why things are. First of all, a large amount of the founders of GW were Historical Gamers, so were the players. If you looked at the CV’s of the original GW staff, I bet a lot studied History. When the time came to invent 40k, the backgrounds of most of the races were a mix of real life historical races and Warhammer Races. The inventors drew upon there own historical background and knowledge to create the rich and diverse 40k background we have today. The Space Marines are no exception.

The SM’s background, is based off the Ancient Roman Legions, to which Emperor Caesar and Mark Antony founded, and guess what? There were 20 of them. By the time Agustas came to be the Sole Ruler (30BC) there were many other Legions, to which he disbanded around 50. The Original Legions were:

1. Legio I Germanica
2. Legio II Sabina
3. Legio III Cyrenaica
4. Legio III Gallica
5. Legio IV Macedonica
6. Legio IV Scythica
7. Legio V Alaudae
8. Legio VI Ferrata
9. Legio VII Claudia
10. Legio VIII Augusta:
11. Legio IX Hispana
12. Legio X Equestris, also known as X Equestris
13. Legio X Veneria
14. Legio X Fretensis
15. Legio XI: 58–45 BC, Julius Caesar
16. Legio XII Victrix
17. Legio XII Antiqua
18. Legio XIII Gemina:
19. Legio XVIII Libyca
20. Legio XXX Classica

Now, why are there 18 SM Legions and 2 ‘unknown’ Legions? GW always stated this was so hobbyists could essentially create their own Legions. However, a little more historical references could reveal the true reason………………

At the Revolt of Batvia, the Batavians managed to destroy 2 of the above Legions down to the last man, thus completely erasing them from history! One was Legio V and I can’t remember the other one, think it may have been Legio I. In addition to the 2 destroyed Legions, at least 9 were either disbanded or reconstituted by a mix of Emperor Caesar, and Agustas (and we have 9 Traitor Legions). If you actually read up on the Legions, some had specialities which mirror some of the backgrounds of the SM Legions, E.g., Legio X Equestris was a purely mounted Legion, only fighting from horseback and only fielding cavalry from their Legion – White Scars anyone?

Now I am not saying that GW copied the Roman Legions when creating the SM’s, but given the backgrounds of the people who created the 40k universe back then, historical references to the Roman Army was certainly heavily drawn upon.

And as I own a company of Legion of the Damned, I can confirm that they are the remnants of the Fire Hawks Chapter who were lost in the Warp and contracted a disease.

Why are there several Legios with the same unit number designation? For example, there are 3 Legio X.

chub wrote:I know the mystery of the two missing legions.

So if youre sitting comfortably i will begin.
A long time ago a small british company invented a strange game with "knights" and aliens in it, they even went on to invent numerous alien races and a potential 20 different "knight" legions and all was well in the world. that was until mr X stood up and said "what happens, if in the future we become a big multinational company with a massive fan base?" well understandably everyone was stunned, a big multinational british company in the 80's ha what a joke. so mr Y stood up and said whilst trying to stifle the giggles "i know we will strike the 2nd and 11th "knight legion of the list this will allow both us to produce more ideas when neccesary and will give all the future fanboys out there something to discuss and discuss even though there is no real answer" everyone was in agreement so warhammer 40k was born

THE END

nope, space tigers.

Ironhide wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Guys, I’ve been in the GW hobby since it began in the 80’s and know quite a bit on the background and why things are. First of all, a large amount of the founders of GW were Historical Gamers, so were the players. If you looked at the CV’s of the original GW staff, I bet a lot studied History. When the time came to invent 40k, the backgrounds of most of the races were a mix of real life historical races and Warhammer Races. The inventors drew upon there own historical background and knowledge to create the rich and diverse 40k background we have today. The Space Marines are no exception.

The SM’s background, is based off the Ancient Roman Legions, to which Emperor Caesar and Mark Antony founded, and guess what? There were 20 of them. By the time Agustas came to be the Sole Ruler (30BC) there were many other Legions, to which he disbanded around 50. The Original Legions were:

1. Legio I Germanica
2. Legio II Sabina
3. Legio III Cyrenaica
4. Legio III Gallica
5. Legio IV Macedonica
6. Legio IV Scythica
7. Legio V Alaudae
8. Legio VI Ferrata
9. Legio VII Claudia
10. Legio VIII Augusta:
11. Legio IX Hispana
12. Legio X Equestris, also known as X Equestris
13. Legio X Veneria
14. Legio X Fretensis
15. Legio XI: 58–45 BC, Julius Caesar
16. Legio XII Victrix
17. Legio XII Antiqua
18. Legio XIII Gemina:
19. Legio XVIII Libyca
20. Legio XXX Classica

Now, why are there 18 SM Legions and 2 ‘unknown’ Legions? GW always stated this was so hobbyists could essentially create their own Legions. However, a little more historical references could reveal the true reason………………

At the Revolt of Batvia, the Batavians managed to destroy 2 of the above Legions down to the last man, thus completely erasing them from history! One was Legio V and I can’t remember the other one, think it may have been Legio I. In addition to the 2 destroyed Legions, at least 9 were either disbanded or reconstituted by a mix of Emperor Caesar, and Agustas (and we have 9 Traitor Legions). If you actually read up on the Legions, some had specialities which mirror some of the backgrounds of the SM Legions, E.g., Legio X Equestris was a purely mounted Legion, only fighting from horseback and only fielding cavalry from their Legion – White Scars anyone?

Now I am not saying that GW copied the Roman Legions when creating the SM’s, but given the backgrounds of the people who created the 40k universe back then, historical references to the Roman Army was certainly heavily drawn upon.

And as I own a company of Legion of the Damned, I can confirm that they are the remnants of the Fire Hawks Chapter who were lost in the Warp and contracted a disease.

Why are there several Legios with the same unit number designation? For example, there are 3 Legio X.

Different area assignations?

Orlanth wrote:

idget wrote:Maybe they were blanks and when the Emperor found out he purged all records to keep everyone from learning about the C'Tan, particularly the Tech-Priests

They most certainly are 'Blanks', but not necessarily in the manner you are suggesting.

Blanks are a Sf/Fantacist term for an area of the plot deliberately let vacant in order to form an air of mystery. A goodf blank is sert up from the beginning and never used. Since the dawn of role playing Blansks also exist so that fans can create their own histories within the blanks without treading on th toes of the main IP. What is in a blank might be nothing or something game breakingly powerful, but it can only break your game, it cannot destroy the internal consistency is blanking is used.

The lost Primarchs are and were Blanks. Mysteries in the plot and at the same time room for 'create your own'.

When i say 'blanks' I mean blanks in the warp
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blanks

A legion of blanks is cool, but kinda creepy man. I do so hope that one day we're given some more fluff of the lost legions. Hopefully one of them will be anthropomorpic lizards.

Previously, when these discussions came up, at some point someone would always say something about back in the dwan of time one of the founding fathers of GW left, and he held the copyright to the two missing legions (IIRC, one was called the Rainbow Warriors, of all things), so GW had to remove them from the official background and chose the "all records expunged" route.

I like the Roman Legions comparison though - it does sound awfully plausible.

@ CommanderFarsight: Old fluff has the SW and DA travelling to Terra together after the SW sacking of Prospero, and the only reason they're too late is that Jonson insisted they stop en route several times to secure ket Imperial worlds that had revolted.
And "in time" is relative, anyway; old fluff also has Horus not committing to his gambit until news of the Wolves and Dark Angels' impending arrival reaches him - so they would always have been too late, as it's their arrival which triggers the sequence of events leading to Sanguinius' death and the Emperor's Ascension.

IMO, he was right to be scared ; even though after the wolves' and angels' arrival he'd still have more Legions on site than the Loyalists, he'd be caught between two fronts, and have the two most dangerous Legions (to him - Russ and Jonson were only surpassed by Horus in vistory tally during the Crusades, presumably because Horus was found earlier ) in his rear end.

Though I wouldn't be surprised if this gets retconned.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Ironhide wrote:

TheSecretSquig wrote:Guys, I’ve been in the GW hobby since it began in the 80’s and know quite a bit on the background and why things are. First of all, a large amount of the founders of GW were Historical Gamers, so were the players. If you looked at the CV’s of the original GW staff, I bet a lot studied History. When the time came to invent 40k, the backgrounds of most of the races were a mix of real life historical races and Warhammer Races. The inventors drew upon there own historical background and knowledge to create the rich and diverse 40k background we have today. The Space Marines are no exception.

The SM’s background, is based off the Ancient Roman Legions, to which Emperor Caesar and Mark Antony founded, and guess what? There were 20 of them. By the time Agustas came to be the Sole Ruler (30BC) there were many other Legions, to which he disbanded around 50. The Original Legions were:

1. Legio I Germanica
2. Legio II Sabina
3. Legio III Cyrenaica
4. Legio III Gallica
5. Legio IV Macedonica
6. Legio IV Scythica
7. Legio V Alaudae
8. Legio VI Ferrata
9. Legio VII Claudia
10. Legio VIII Augusta:
11. Legio IX Hispana
12. Legio X Equestris, also known as X Equestris
13. Legio X Veneria
14. Legio X Fretensis
15. Legio XI: 58–45 BC, Julius Caesar
16. Legio XII Victrix
17. Legio XII Antiqua
18. Legio XIII Gemina:
19. Legio XVIII Libyca
20. Legio XXX Classica

Now, why are there 18 SM Legions and 2 ‘unknown’ Legions? GW always stated this was so hobbyists could essentially create their own Legions. However, a little more historical references could reveal the true reason………………

At the Revolt of Batvia, the Batavians managed to destroy 2 of the above Legions down to the last man, thus completely erasing them from history! One was Legio V and I can’t remember the other one, think it may have been Legio I. In addition to the 2 destroyed Legions, at least 9 were either disbanded or reconstituted by a mix of Emperor Caesar, and Agustas (and we have 9 Traitor Legions). If you actually read up on the Legions, some had specialities which mirror some of the backgrounds of the SM Legions, E.g., Legio X Equestris was a purely mounted Legion, only fighting from horseback and only fielding cavalry from their Legion – White Scars anyone?

Now I am not saying that GW copied the Roman Legions when creating the SM’s, but given the backgrounds of the people who created the 40k universe back then, historical references to the Roman Army was certainly heavily drawn upon.

And as I own a company of Legion of the Damned, I can confirm that they are the remnants of the Fire Hawks Chapter who were lost in the Warp and contracted a disease.

Why are there several Legios with the same unit number designation? For example, there are 3 Legio X.

Different area assignations?

Possibly. I remember reading somewhere that the Legio numerical number would usually stay the same, but the Legion name would sometimes change depending on the commander of that legion. So I was thinking maybe they were taken from different time periods?

Many moons ago, GW studio members used to visit US Grand Tournaments and actually play games with the participants. I can’t remember the exact year (possibly the mid 90’s) but it was back when the pub quiz was an informal, after hour’s event.

Anyways, I was fortunate enough to ask Jervis this exact question. He said that he really didn’t know who the two legions were and that this was done on purpose. He called them ‘Plot Hooks’ and explained that the studio does this liberally throughout the 40k universe. The purpose is to instill a sense of mystery with some unanswered questions. So nobody really knows who they are and most likely never will. Another example he gave of a plot hook at the time was the Dark Angels guy with the special sword. It’s a cool mystery that’s left unanswered on purpose.

I believe the Dark Angels character you refer to is Cypher, who carries a broken sword which is possibly the Lion Sword (from El'Jonson).

I think everyone in this thread understands that the Legions were ommitted by GW on purpose to add an air of mystery. Or at least they should understand this, due to the intended dearth of information on them.

But alas, we specualte with the information we do have so we can delve further into the lore of 40k. The OP picked up on a neat point that the Legions aren't quite as lost as we thought. Until I reread that I had assumed the Primarchs were dead or lost to the warp or perhaps genetic failures.

I have a question about these missing primarchs.

When the Emperor of man began his crusade, he had the legions of space marines with him, right?
And eventually he found the primarchs, one by one, and placed them at the heads of their respective legion.

Well what about those missing primarchs? Were their legions already created? Did the emporer divy them up amongst the other legions when their primarchs were no where to be seen?

It seems the legions were created. But they shared the fate of their primarchs.

I don't think it was a genetic mutation which lead to him erasing the missing legions record.

I mean, one of the Primarchs is a dog, The Emperor doesn't have high standards.

So I am currently reading Mechanium, not that far in but this thread is relevant to my interests!

I wonder if these Lost to Legions are possibly going to be revealed as GW re-does their armies again, also I wonder if they may somehow connect to other armies Sisters of Battle maybe? I mean it would be a stretch but who knows?

Oh no. Not ANOTHER "What happened to the two legions"

It's simple. GW wanted players to have the ability to create their own armies who aren't descended from any known legion.

Now, as for mythology, we all have our own takes on the 2nd and 11th.

I have my own theories (see Emperor's Knights) but others are welcome to theirs.

Well one of the missing Primarchs is Sigmar, right?

Wrong Warhammer.

Sigmar is god in Warhammer Fantasy.

No-one knows the names of the missing primarchs!

except me.......hehehehe.

I know that GW made it clear that the fate of the two lost legions is a mystery to allow for some creativity, but it's still fun to hear people's theories. If sort of helps in expanding the minds of the beginners (me) and opens people up to more ideas for their own armies.

So ponder away!

Tek wrote:Well one of the missing Primarchs is Sigmar, right?

In the old Warhammer fluff, it was pretty clear this was true. It's since been changed, and iirc, the fluff now has Sigmar being born instead of falling from the sky.

All 20 primarchs were found, re-united with their Legion, and participated in the Great Crusade. This is clear in the more recent fluff.

I wonder if they'll pull a big reveal in the Horus Heresy books. They've said the existence of Omegon isn't the biggest surprise.

I think it kinda sucks that they sacked the fluff that the WHFB world was in the 40k Universe..

We had some huge fun with that back in the day.. Space-Skaven, Catachan CCW only armies... :(

Back to the matter at hand, have we decided we will never know?

thegrav wrote:... we will never know?

Yeah, pretty much. That's the way GW intended it. And I highly doubt the HH series will reveal the secret in full detail, although I'm sure they will put tantalizing clues for us to find like what OP pointed out.

BUT, that's not the point of this thread. We are here to speculate with the info we do have.

Hehe, nice, and too true!

ShadowAngel159 wrote:Before I tell you my idea of the two lost legions, I first want to say that this is not a theory. This is simply part of a story I intend to write about the lost legions for later.

Here's my idea: The Emperor did not find Horus first. He found the two lost primarchs first upon the same planet. And the two of them, when together, shared immense psychic powers. One ability was predicting the future.

When they met the Emperor, they had a vision of what would happen to the Imperium. They never told the Emperor the entire truth, only that the Imperium would burn.

Worried, the Emperor quickly gave his two sons command of their legions. Then, he gave them their Expeditionary Fleets and their mission: go out to another galaxy and begin the Imperium anew. That way, the Emperor's goals of mankind united would remain strong.

Given their fleets, their legions, and as much resources as they needed, the two lost primarchs set out to a new galaxy to begin the building of the Imperium across the universe.

Again, this is just my idea, specifically for my future potential story

so are you using issac asimov's foundation books as inspiration? this sounds very close to those books.

Ohhh good series.. I loved those books...

i have loved reading this.

It would be interesting to see if the HH series does give anymore tasty bits out. Other than the already mentioned two books are there any other BL tidbits?

Thousand Sons gives out one about Fenris, the Space Wolf homeworld. I'm looking forward to books about the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines.

A Thousand Sons also talks about the lost legions (kinda)

At Ullanor, Magnus and Mortarion get into a bit of a row, and something interesting is said:

Spoiler:

"Brother," said Maguns, ignoring Mortarion's words. "A great day is it not? Nine sons of the Emperor gathered together on one world, such a thing has not happened since..."
"I know when it was, Magnus," said Mortarion, his voice robust and resolute in contrast to his pallid features. "And the Emperor forbade us speak of it again. Do you disobey that command?"

I always took that to be a reference to the 'purging of imperial records' that went on.

Interesting...

I always had the suspicion that at least one of the two lost Legions was removed because of some massive genetic deviation in there Gene-Seed, even worse than the Wolves and Blood Angels. Something that meant the other Imperial forces wouldn't willingly fight alongside them, given the whole point of the campaign was 'kill everything vaguely non-human' and having distinctly non-human looking allies on a permanent basis wouldn't work. Instead, I figured they got stored somewhere in the event that were desperately needed and the Emperor didn't dare to re-activate them, even during Heresy, for fears that they'd turn or make one of the loyal legions turn in a 'You're telling me I must fight beside this tainted scum?' moment of pride.

Dashofpepper wrote:Hrm.

The conversation isn't picking up on what I thought was interesting.

While the Sigilite says, "They are lost to us forever," he prefaces with "Don't dare think about it."

IE, Dorn was musing about having 15 legions instead of 13. He was wondering if he should recall the 2nd and 11th legion, allying with them, or something - in that he has some definite means of gaining access to them, and the Sigilite warns him against it.

This is why I'm so interested - their records are deleted and expunged, but at least one primarch seems to know how to get access to them, although doing so is apparently unthinkable.

Here's a theory...

The legions existed before the Emperor was reunited with the primarchs. Each legion gained it's primarch as the Crusade progressed, some changing their name (from the Dusk Raiders to Death Guard for example). HH books already detail the moments when the Legionnaires of the 1st Legion (soon to be Dark Angels) and War Hounds (soon to be World Eaters) meet their primarchs for the first time.

For whatever reason, the emperor FOUND the two missing primarchs, but they are not part of the Imperium and had their records deleted. Maybe they were killed on their planets, maybe they didn't want to join the Imperium, maybe they killed themselves, maybe they waged war on the Emperor like so many other human civilisations in the Great Crusade.

But what happened to their Legions? Presumably they were part of the Crusade, but what happened when their primarch refused to join the Imperium, for example? Maybe they were disbanded, retired from service? Is this what Dorn is talking about, two extra legions of marines who fought in the crusade but are considered 'unusable' because they have no primarch??

And I'll add my voice to the chorus of....

- LotD were the Fire Hawks, cursed founding, lost in the warp
- Blood Ravens follow 'the lost primarch', but that's just their way of saying they don't know who it is. We all know it's Magnus - there are hints in A Thousand Sons too...
- Grey Knights have no primarch, they were created from the Emperors genetic material in the 2nd Founding. The Emperor is their primarch.

I hope we never find out.

When RT was written they deliberately left it blank to add some mystery to the background.

It is like getting someone to lay out their 20 favorite items, but they leave the 2nd and 11th item off the table.

MYSTERY!

I think GW will pull a reveal. Whatever it is, it'll never compare to what people have developed on their own.

Jimsolo wrote:Horus also, if I recall correctly, damages one of the tanks. (The eleventh?) Also, when he witnesses the primarchs' birthing chambers being pulled into the warp, I do believe that he hears one of them dying.

Here's the thing about the two missing legions that has always piqued my interest. All information pertaining to them has been removed.

Yet Horus is still listed.

Horus, and his allies, turned to Chaos, abandoned the great crusade, betrayed their Emperor, sought to destroy/defile mankind, and in all other ways did everything that one could conceive of to cement their reputations as bad guys. But they are still on the big list of legions.

What the hell did the other two legions do? Or, what became of them? I have heard some very interesting theories. One of my favorites is that the Legion of the Damned is in fact one of the lost legions. Their Primarch did, in fact, die. However, like all Primarchs, he conquered or rose to a position of authority in the land in which he had been lost to. (In his case, the afterlife.) Somehow, the Emperor contacted him, and decided it would be best if he were left alone.

But after the Heresy, and seeing the dark turn the Imperium had taken, this Primarch gathered together the souls of slain Marines, and took them as members of his Legion. The Legion of the Damned.

BTW, Lord-loss: Where did you read about the LoD being a lost chapter (Hawk fire, I believe you said)? That would be something I would like to check out.

As a point of clarification, although the Grey Knights are indeed second founding, I am left to understand that they are not a splinter group of one of the loyalist legions, but are in fact the remnants of the traitor legions, the ones who returned to Terra rather than join in Horus's treachery. (Those who weren't killed on Istvaan III, that is.)

But I am still hung up on whatever happened to the other two legions. Did they do something to betray mankind, something worse than Horus? Why erase all mention of them? Is it something so embarassing that the Imperium couldn't stand to have anyone know? Or so dangerous that they couldn't risk anyone finding out? Did they suffer losses which, if known, would reveal a hitherto unknown Achilles heel for the Space Marines or the Imperium itself?

Although, OP, I do agree with you. Dorn's comments make it seem as if Dorn is of the opinion that the two lost legions could be recovered. The Sigilite's response seems to indicate either A) he knows part of the story that Dorn doesn't, and recovery is in fact impossible, or B) he knows part of the story that Dorn doesn't, knows recover IS possible, but doesn't want anyone else to know that. For whatever reason...

Interesting stuff.

The Legion of The Damned are *definitely* not one of the missing legions, as Lord Loss said, theyre a second founding Chapter that has a curse on them. I can't remember where I read this, & it was definitely in some old fluff (either 3rd edition or pre 3rd edition), so perhaps its been retconned now, but I seem to remember them having some deathly curse on them, & no one really knows if theyre real or just a legend, but they turn up out of nowhere & turn the tide of battles.

Fire Hawks is ringing a bell, but it could have been something else. In fact, now I think about it, I think it was in a really old article in a really old white dwarf (I couldn't even begin to guess at the issue number, sorry)

Wonder if the legions are fill with like
1: a lot of hobos
2: guys with ham sandwicthes
3: Hippes!!!!
4: old poeple
so far so good .

Here's two possible reasons that the two missing Legions were expunged, and that the Traitor Legions were not.
1) They did something worse that Horus
2) Only the Emperor could give authorization to expunge records. Since the Emperor was incapacitated, no one could remove the Traitor Legion records.

There's lots of others. They're in the webway, they're in another galaxy, they're time traveling, they got lost on the way to Terra.

Of course, it could be like the Jedi Archives.. Someone high up in the Inquisition may have hid or destroyed the records for some Ruinous reasons.... just putting that out there.. Maybe they were/are deployed somewhere holding of some great threat, and someone later deleted it all and made them look like traitors/deserters.

dietrich wrote:I think GW will pull a reveal. Whatever it is, it'll never compare to what people have developed on their own.

The studio higher ups (Jervis, Nigel etc) have repeatedly said that they will not do this as no legions were ever thought up to fill the spots.
It was deliberately left blank.
If they don't know, we have no hope of finding out.

And a reveal would just leave a bad tast in our mouths. I'd accept whispers of rumours and innuendo in the HH books, which just inflates the mystery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I cannot believe so many people acctuallty thought LOTD were one of the lost legions... wow.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

dietrich wrote:I think GW will pull a reveal. Whatever it is, it'll never compare to what people have developed on their own.

The studio higher ups (Jervis, Nigel etc) have repeatedly said that they will not do this as no legions were ever thought up to fill the spots.
It was deliberately left blank.
If they don't know, we have no hope of finding out.

And a reveal would just leave a bad tast in our mouths. I'd accept whispers of rumours and innuendo in the HH books, which just inflates the mystery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I cannot believe so many people acctuallty thought LOTD were one of the lost legions... wow.

And gives us juice new army ideas!!!

That is one of the side benefits.

Its like they never do a full listing of all 1000 current SM chapters. They WANT us to use our imagination.
For example... SMs with ork DNA contaminating their geneseed!



If your chapter is one of the lost legions in your fluff, great- other will not accept it but you get to have a great time working on it.

LOL! Love em!

Maybe GW should make a game out of the two lost legions. And since the identities of the legions are unknown, then that leaves the player to construct and create a legion and/or primarch of their own.

Bloodbowl?

Corennus wrote:Wrong Warhammer.

Sigmar is god in Warhammer Fantasy.

No-one knows the names of the missing primarchs!

except me.......hehehehe.

Yeah, sorry to come back in so late - but way back when WHFB was a planet in 40k, it was pretty much a given that Sigmar was a primarch. That was freaking. awesome.
I'm sad that GW retconned that little bit of fluff. Slann, Power Weapons, Daemons, Primarchs, it all fit so snugly, it made me feel warm inside.

I'm hoping that it stays a mystery for a long time - unless GW do something completly outside 40k with them, like a CCG or a board game or something - that would rule.

Jimsolo wrote:
What the hell did the other two legions do? Or, what became of them? I have heard some very interesting theories. One of my favorites is that the Legion of the Damned is in fact one of the lost legions. Their Primarch did, in fact, die. However, like all Primarchs, he conquered or rose to a position of authority in the land in which he had been lost to. (In his case, the afterlife.) Somehow, the Emperor contacted him, and decided it would be best if he were left alone.

But after the Heresy, and seeing the dark turn the Imperium had taken, this Primarch gathered together the souls of slain Marines, and took them as members of his Legion. The Legion of the Damned.

BTW, Lord-loss: Where did you read about the LoD being a lost chapter (Hawk fire, I believe you said)? That would be something I would like to check out.

The Legion of the Damned are believed to be the tattered remnant of the Fire Hawks Chapter. They arent the souls of dead marines, they are all afflicted with a disease that will eventually kill them, but drives them into an incerdible rage first. However, they still remain loyal to the Emperor, and occasionally appear to aid Imperial forces on the brink of defeat, then disappear without a trace.
Check the Lexicanum for this sort of thing.
Link for the LotD: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Legion_of_the_Damned


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:Hrm.

The conversation isn't picking up on what I thought was interesting.

While the Sigilite says, "They are lost to us forever," he prefaces with "Don't dare think about it."

IE, Dorn was musing about having 15 legions instead of 13. He was wondering if he should recall the 2nd and 11th legion, allying with them, or something - in that he has some definite means of gaining access to them, and the Sigilite warns him against it.

This is why I'm so interested - their records are deleted and expunged, but at least one primarch seems to know how to get access to them, although doing so is apparently unthinkable.

Or perhaps he is telling Dorn not to think about it because there is no way to bring them back, and it doesnt bare thinking about it. It can be interpreted in 2 ways.
Either:
Dorn knows of a way to bring back the 2 lost legions and Sigilite warns him against it becuase there is something terribly wrong with them
OR
Dorn wishes the two lost legions were available, but knows they are truly gone, and Sigilite says it is not worth thinking about it, its impossible.

This is all moot though, as we know the reason there are two lost legions is to leave a blank space for a Loyalist and a Heretic legion to be created by people as custom legions.

The known founding legions:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/First_Founding

Just incase anyone forgot.
I've heard of a SM chapter often reffered to as one of the first legions, the Rainbow Warriors. But with a name like that I wouldn't be surprised if they were "beyond saving"

It's not Grey Knights. They are believed to be.....


And the legion of the damned are the remnants of the fire hawks who's fleet was decimated in a warp-storm, with only 200 surviving marines who picked up a disease which slowly kills them. Why they seem to appear out of nowhere, with no trace of any fleet nearby may be something to do with the disease or warp related stuff

felixthecat345 wrote:The known founding legions:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/First_Founding

Just incase anyone forgot.
I've heard of a SM chapter often reffered to as one of the first legions, the Rainbow Warriors. But with a name like that I wouldn't be surprised if they were "beyond saving"

It's not Grey Knights. They are believed to be.....

Spoiler:

the 70 marines who escaped the drop sight massacre

Hang on, are you saying the Grey Knights are the 70 marines who escaped the drop site massacre? Because thats just not right. Or have I simply misinterpreted what you wrote, and you mean the 70 marines are the Rainbow Warriors?

Wyvern wrote:

felixthecat345 wrote:The known founding legions:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/First_Founding

Just incase anyone forgot.
I've heard of a SM chapter often reffered to as one of the first legions, the Rainbow Warriors. But with a name like that I wouldn't be surprised if they were "beyond saving"

It's not Grey Knights. They are believed to be.....

Spoiler:

the 70 marines who escaped the drop sight massacre

Hang on, are you saying the Grey Knights are the 70 marines who escaped the drop site massacre? Because thats just not right. Or have I simply misinterpreted what you wrote, and you mean the 70 marines are the Rainbow Warriors?

About the drop-site massacre, I got it wrong, it was the loyalists who escaped Istvaan 3 on the Eisenstein, not Istvaan 5.
Now that I checked 40k wiki it says that rainbow warriors were called one of the first legions because they appeared as a relatively major chapter in rogue trader. And wiki does clearly say that the escaped marines were either:

Executed for treachery (probably not, there was overwhelming evidence plus getting executed just isn't a fitting end)

Founded the inquisition and used there gene seed to create the grey knights

Carried on living normal SM lives (not that exciting=not likely)

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic:

I think a cool sounding explanation would be 1 of the 2 lost legions made a warp jump that went disastrously wrong. They scattered into the Halo stars and were attacked by an unknown assailant, at the time of the HH they were alive but there current fate is unknown. Dunno bout the other.

Sigh....

From the Lexicanum

Just before the Second Founding, the Imperium was still reeling in shock from the recent galactic civil war, and very vulnerable. The Emperor ordered the creation of a 'secret chapter' of the Space Marines: chapter six-hundred-and-sixty-six. The gene-seed for this chapter is strongly suspected to have been taken from the Emperor directly. After their creation, the chapter was assigned to the Ordo Malleus as their Chamber Militant. The name of this chapter has become legend, and is feared throughout the galaxy by those it opposes, and is whispered in reverence by all those it protects: the Grey Knights.

Why you'd use non psykers to found a psyker based chapter is beyond me.
The second founding wasn't until after the dust had settled from the heresy.
The survivors on the Eisenstein aren't the founders of the grey knights.
The rainbow warriors aren't the lost legion.

This thread leaves me lost at how so many people have such bizzare ideas about 40k background, 99% of which can be easily cleared up with a trip to the lexicanum...

And what is the citation for that particular blurb in Lexicanum?

Lexicanum itself is not a source.

Indeed. I also believe that the Grey Knights are Garro's escapees. Which mean the Grey knights are Death Guard......which is awesome. Go Death Guard Loyalists!

Your supposition that the Grey Knights are descended from the Death Guard is tenuous at best. There isn't anything that actually points at this and as mentioned, how could an all psyker chapter descend from a chapter that explicitly lacks psykers?

Nathaniel Garro and the other loyalists with him may not have started the Grey Knights, but it appears that they were the first leaders of the Inquisition.

What? Were are you getting that inquisition stuff from?

Future interations of the Grey Knights would seek out psykers. Regardless of origin they would have to do this. The main tenet of the Grey Knights is that not one of them has ever fallen to Chaos. The Death Gaurd were actually the first ever to combat corrupted space marines (plague marines to be exact). Seeing the horror of what could become of Astartes I believe they made absolutely sure it would never happen to any of them again. I admit, all speculation but when the DG touched down on Titan and were quaratined it just all comes together.

Garro (a loyalist DG), Qruze (a loyalist Luna Wolf) and a sister of silence are recruited for a new organization after the events that occurred when the Eisenstein returned to Terra (the moon actually). I will admit, it is not called the Inquisition or the like, but it is heavily implied. All this occurs in the HH book Flight of the Eisenstein.

Melissia wrote:And what is the citation for that particular blurb in Lexicanum?

Lexicanum itself is not a source.

It is a source. It has info. Just like the ramblings of 12 years olds is a source. Wether they are correct or not, now thats the important part.

Lexicanum is the best collection of directly quoted canon available on the net.
They do their best to remove home based fluff and focus on direct GW text.

Lets do a direct quote from index astartes II (The GW source book)

Legend has it that the Grey Knights were founded on the order of the Emperor himself, at some point between the start of the Horus Heresy and the events of the Second Founding. Though the Chapter's origins are uncertain about the details (see below about origins), it is thought that the Emperor ordered the creation of a force designed to fight Chaos[1]. It was the Horus Heresy that demonstrated that a powerful military force specializing in fighting Chaos was necessary.

Originally they were thought not to be descended from any of the original twenty Space Marine Legions, having been created from a unique gene-seed, rumoured to come from the Emperor of Mankind himself[1].

WOW!
No death guard
Not a lost legion!

I can't believe I'm still arguing the point....

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Melissia wrote:And what is the citation for that particular blurb in Lexicanum?

Lexicanum itself is not a source.

It is a source. It has info. Just like the ramblings of 12 years olds is a source. Wether they are correct or not, now thats the important part.

Lexicanum is the best collection of directly quoted canon available on the net.
They do their best to remove home based fluff and focus on direct GW text.

Lets do a direct quote from index astartes II (The GW source book)

Legend has it that the Grey Knights were founded on the order of the Emperor himself, at some point between the start of the Horus Heresy and the events of the Second Founding. Though the Chapter's origins are uncertain about the details (see below about origins), it is thought that the Emperor ordered the creation of a force designed to fight Chaos[1]. It was the Horus Heresy that demonstrated that a powerful military force specializing in fighting Chaos was necessary.

Originally they were thought not to be descended from any of the original twenty Space Marine Legions, having been created from a unique gene-seed, rumoured to come from the Emperor of Mankind himself[1].

WOW!
No death guard
Not a lost legion!

I can't believe I'm still arguing the point....

It's also exceptionally vague. They specifically do not say where the original gene seed came from, only rumoring that it came from the Emperor himself. Really, if the original gene seed for the Grey Knights came from Eisenstein survivor stock, do you really think that would be advertised? Imagine how well the following line would go over with the Puritan sects: "Hey, we want you Inquisitors to know. Grey Knight Gene Seed is actually from the same stock that brought us the 9 Chaos Legions!"

In all honesty, I'd be surprised if it's not addressed in the Garro HH book that's coming out in December.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Lexicanum is the best collection of directly quoted canon available on the net.

And a good collection of sourceless supposition and unsourced ramblings, too. Rather than citing Lexicanum, look at what Lexicanum cites for their quotes.

Your quote does not provide a definitive answer.

Neither does yours Melissa.

Only mine comes direct from GW source material.

And nobody, I would find it unlikely to be covered but if they do explain what happened I hope the dispel all this pointless conjecture.

I know that the LoD are the lost Fire Hawks as per the reams of info on them now, I always held hope they were going to be the survivors from the surface of Isstvan III, you never find out what happens to all of them.

Thinking of the 'lost' legions, Horus clearly see's one of the Primarchs die in a damaged incubation chamber before they are scattered to the warp. So, the Primarch is lost, but what about the leaderless Legion left in his wake?

Also, thinking about the knowledge of the warp and chaos in particular around the time of the heresy was limited to only a select group. The Emperor truely knew, as did Magnus. The others had a vague knowledge of the chaos gods but not much, that was probably why the Word Bearers found it so easy to convert half of the legions. What if when one of the lost was found, he rejected the father in preference to the chaos gods he already worshipped. The fear of one of the primarchs turning from the light would most definately lead to the records being expunged. If one could turn, so too could others.

The Emperor made the ultimate mistake in cotton wool wrapping his primarchs, blinding them to the true nature of chaos to prevent what happened to the lost happening to the others.

This whole thread could be turned into a drinking game. Read through it and take a drink every time someone says the LOTD is a lost chapter. Take a drink each time someone says Sigmar is a lost Primarch.

Bash_bates- he was trying to do that to the empire as a whole as he knew how dangerous the warp could be.

The second point you raised (and to be honest I have no Idea) is that there was a legion already there when the primarchs were 'lost'.

Now bear with me as this is deduction from canon rather than making up fluff.

That they were still in their incubators would indicate that they were still 'relatively' young (they all seemed to be toddlers when they were found on their respective planets).
This would by surmation mean that the process (if started at all) of starting up the legions would be only at very first stages at best, as the primarch DNA is still 'fresh' so to speak.
All the legions formed used primarch DNA, that DNA must have been removed pre the primarchs being lost in the warp.
But the emperor always intended to have each legion led by its genetic father (primarch).
If a primarch is known to be dead, why develop the legion?
In A thousand sons we are told that Magnus had direct telepathic contact with the emperor from when he was a few cells all the way through to being found, so the emperor knew that of those lost at least one was alive.

I don't recall the time span between the scattering of the primarchs and the lauch of the crusade. But it was close to 200 years into the crusade before Alpharius was found and in Legion they keep refering to him being the last one found, (and thus completing the search) indicating that several people at least are aware of there being 2 lost primarchs.
1 we know is dead. the other, who knows....

So in summation.
If the legions were created (at least beyond initial steps) after the primarchs were lost with the intent to have an army that will ultimately be led by their primarch, why create a legion that you know will never get a primarch, because he is dead?



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And a reason for why there is no record is that the legions never existed, and the primarchs never survived/gave their DNA/were known to have a problem pre being scattered..

The legions are listed by the number on the incubator for the primarch. Not the order they were found in (horus was 1st found)
So that 2 are there indicates that at some stage there was a primarch but does not indicate there was a legion.

DarthDiggler wrote:This whole thread could be turned into a drinking game. Read through it and take a drink every time someone says the LOTD is a lost chapter. Take a drink each time someone says Sigmar is a lost Primarch.

HAHAHA i like this! this made my day

LotD IS a lost chapter.

What they are not, however, is a lost legion.

Actually I got my info from lexi....or maybe it was wh40k wikia, I dunno. But the 70 survivors were definitely something to do with the founding of the inquisition

Maybe one scattered out of the warp into the halo stars or summat? That would explain why there is no record of their legion, and maybe why there's something so spooky there.
Also, it would be cool if GW decided to progress the timeline a bit and say they find that primarch, create a new legion and finally replace UM.

I always liked the idea of the two lost legions actually going rogue from the Imperium without falling to chaos. Seeing how easily corrupted normal mankind can be. And knowing the emperor as not a god. But a man. A powerful man. Maybe they disagreed with him enough to leave and found their own dominion in a far flung section of the galaxy. Or another one in the pursuit of what they deemed a perfect society? After committing some sort of betrayal so grave in the eyes of the Emperor that their history was expunged from record. Mean whilst somewhere out there is a society of genetically engineered super-humans seeking perfection in mankind. Body and soul.

The theory of the two lost legions going rouge sound pretty cool but if they turned rouge the Emperor would surely have had them wiped out. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't appreciate his sons turning their backs on him and then trying to carve out a niche in his domain. So I would say the odds are pretty good either they are destroyed or are currently in a place that nobody can get to (due to warpstorms or whatnot) and may be waiting for the right time to reveal themselves when most desperately needed.

*rogue.

bash_bates wrote:

Thinking of the 'lost' legions, Horus clearly see's one of the Primarchs die in a damaged incubation chamber before they are scattered to

That Primarch doesn't die.

In "The Lightning Tower" there is a scene with Dorn walking through the Imperial Palace prior to the siege. It quite clearly states -- agreeing with the other known fluff -- that there were only 20 beings equal to Dorn's nature, ie Primarchs.

Also they had statues in the Imperial Palace -- as did all the Primarchs ( well.. Alpharius only had 1 I guess, but it wasn't common knowledge about him being twins )

The 2nd and 11th plinths had been vacant for a long time. No one ever spoke of those two absent brothers.Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded ?

In "A Thousand Sons" Magnus also hints at some knowledge of the fate of the missing legions, there's a line about it being quite possible for the Emperor to order and oversee the complete deletion of every mention of a person or persons.

nobody wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Melissia wrote:And what is the citation for that particular blurb in Lexicanum?

Lexicanum itself is not a source.

It is a source. It has info. Just like the ramblings of 12 years olds is a source. Wether they are correct or not, now thats the important part.

Lexicanum is the best collection of directly quoted canon available on the net.
They do their best to remove home based fluff and focus on direct GW text.

Lets do a direct quote from index astartes II (The GW source book)

Legend has it that the Grey Knights were founded on the order of the Emperor himself, at some point between the start of the Horus Heresy and the events of the Second Founding. Though the Chapter's origins are uncertain about the details (see below about origins), it is thought that the Emperor ordered the creation of a force designed to fight Chaos[1]. It was the Horus Heresy that demonstrated that a powerful military force specializing in fighting Chaos was necessary.

Originally they were thought not to be descended from any of the original twenty Space Marine Legions, having been created from a unique gene-seed, rumoured to come from the Emperor of Mankind himself[1].

WOW!
No death guard
Not a lost legion!

I can't believe I'm still arguing the point....

It's also exceptionally vague. They specifically do not say where the original gene seed came from, only rumoring that it came from the Emperor himself. Really, if the original gene seed for the Grey Knights came from Eisenstein survivor stock, do you really think that would be advertised? Imagine how well the following line would go over with the Puritan sects: "Hey, we want you Inquisitors to know. Grey Knight Gene Seed is actually from the same stock that brought us the 9 Chaos Legions!"

In all honesty, I'd be surprised if it's not addressed in the Garro HH book that's coming out in December.

Exactly, they Inquistion is not going to tell people the Grey Knights are DG and Luna Wolves. Nobody would trust them, but ironically they are the most Chaos resistant chapter ever. Born out of actual exposure in the warp. Can't wait for that new Garro book! I'd bet money it going to be the founding of the GKs.

Melissia wrote:LotD IS a lost chapter.

What they are not, however, is a lost legion.

But they arent technically lost. They have been seen a few times, by Imperial forces on the brink of defeat.

They could be the legion of the damned

Wolf Priest Ranek wrote:They could be the legion of the damned

FACEPALM just doesn't cover it.

They're not. Referance: this thread...

(sorry if that came off rude)

Arrrrrgggghh...

OK the second and eleventh legion are unknown ok?

The Legion of the Damned are remnants of the Fire Hawks Chapter, as well as some other chapters maybe.

The Grey Knights are NOT Death Guard. They are a creation of the Emperor himself using his geneseed (created after his internment in the Golden Throne)

Garro is possibly the first member of the INQUISITION. not the Grey Knights. the ordo malleus is the oldest ordo of the inquisition, but the grey knights are relatively new to it.


it's unknown if the two legions took part in the Great Crusade at all. but they were gone by the time Horus became Warmaster..

Corennus wrote:Arrrrrgggghh...
The Grey Knights are NOT Death Guard. They are a creation of the Emperor himself using his geneseed (created after his internment in the Golden Throne)

Garro is possibly the first member of the INQUISITION. not the Grey Knights. the ordo malleus is the oldest ordo of the inquisition, but the grey knights are relatively new to it.

Please go back and re-read my response to Waaaagh-Gonads on his post. It is only rumored that the Grey Knight gene seed came from the Emperor. If you are going to argue that the gene seed definitely came from the Emperor, you will need to provide a source.

We are expecting that if there is an answer to this, it'll be found in Garro's book due out either later this year or early next year.

Really guys? really? Legion of the Damned lost legion? They are the firehawks everyone knows that they are a founding chapter.

FACE PALM


We know that only hints remain. But I believe that the Pretty or Impaient Marines are one of the lost Legions.

And not only that but still it remians that no one actually knows only the Hierarchy of the Games Workshop know.

And not only that but it could be the Squats that could be a Legion.
*GW death squad enters front door.*
"NOOOOOOOOOOOO."

I have always held a view of one missing legion unpopular with most people that love the GW background. It has to do with Sisters of Battle. Before the groans and face palms begin saying that this is not the case I would like to ask "Why not?".

The main reason most people argue against this idea is that SoB or women can't be Space Marines. SoB are not Marines and never will be. Last time I checked the "Primarchs" were not Space Marines either. They were superhumans that were infants when they dissapeared. They were the Sons of the Emperor and led the Legions that were created in their name/DNA. The PRIMARCHS were not Space Marines per se.

The Primarchs were also made 'from' the Emperors DNA right? So basically it could be supposed that each Primarch got a trademark persona from the Emperor such as emotions (pride, rage, lust, etc) and/or abilties (tactics, persuasion, scrying, etc.). Depending on the if you think the Emperor is human or not a male determines the sex of their offspring so carries both the X & Y chromosome.

Most info talks about the Primarch being the Sons of the Emperor. If the records were expunged then we do not know what the other two Primarch are/were so by all 'known' records all the Primarchs WERE male. With nothing to go on the missing two could have had 6 heads, one arm and 4 legs.

When the SoB Codex came out they were origionally called the Daughters of the Emperor. They were a little known 'sect' that had access to 'some' weaponry that they should not have had access to. They allowed themselves to be fooled and had their name changed. There was a big throwdown on Terra and the fighting only stopped when a Custodes got the two sides to stop fighting. The SoB leadership (what was left of it) was led before the Golden Throne and the Emperor, but nothing was said of the meeting. After they left and one beheading later they changed their name back to the Daughters of the Emperor. I wouldn't think just any 'rebel' group would be allowed to see the Emperor just to stop the fighting. Any other group would have been wiped out normally.

Touching back on the SoB are not Space Marines. Right. The whole premise of making SM is the Black Carapace - or used to be. Only males could use it to become Space Marines and thats why women can't be Marines. That would also be a reason a legion couldn't be made for a female Primarch - hence "lost to us".

Anyway thats my reasoning behind one of the missing Primarchs. I also think the other was a blank as stated in previous pages. This all may be way off, but thats what 'I' like to believe.

Maybe some one should start a fething "LotD are NOT a Lost fething Chapter" thread so we don't have to deal with this.

Concerning the Death Guard/Grey Knights. I think that the point is that there a suspicion that the GK geneseed is from the Emperor while there is nothing to even hint the the DG are involved. Just theory. Wacky theory. I do like the DG actually, especially Garro. I do hope the next book dispels this theory.

Speculation into what happened to the lost chapters is fun but remember they are SUPPOSED to be lost according to GW. AFAIK they won't actually reveal their identities, just vague hints to keep us fools guessing.


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FYI, a Y chromosome denotes a male. Two Xs are a female.

I thought I was messing that up. Its been several years since the whole X - Y gene schooling.

I personally REALLY like ShadowAngel's concept, I wish you the best of luck writing on that theory. I'd LOVE to read it when your finished.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I personally REALLY like ShadowAngel's concept, I wish you the best of luck writing on that theory. I'd LOVE to read it when your finished.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh,but I ALSO kinda like the idea that someone said about having the two legions in hiding building up on strength and tech so that they can "purge" the whole galaxy. Perhaps the two theories could mix.......

I personally REALLY like ShadowAngel's concept, I wish you the best of luck writing on that theory. I'd LOVE to read it when your finished.

Archaeo wrote:I have always held a view of one missing legion unpopular with most people that love the GW background. It has to do with Sisters of Battle. Before the groans and face palms begin saying that this is not the case I would like to ask "Why not?".

The main reason most people argue against this idea is that SoB or women can't be Space Marines. SoB are not Marines and never will be. Last time I checked the "Primarchs" were not Space Marines either. They were superhumans that were infants when they dissapeared. They were the Sons of the Emperor and led the Legions that were created in their name/DNA. The PRIMARCHS were not Space Marines per se.

The Primarchs were also made 'from' the Emperors DNA right? So basically it could be supposed that each Primarch got a trademark persona from the Emperor such as emotions (pride, rage, lust, etc) and/or abilties (tactics, persuasion, scrying, etc.). Depending on the if you think the Emperor is human or not a male determines the sex of their offspring so carries both the X & Y chromosome.

Most info talks about the Primarch being the Sons of the Emperor. If the records were expunged then we do not know what the other two Primarch are/were so by all 'known' records all the Primarchs WERE male. With nothing to go on the missing two could have had 6 heads, one arm and 4 legs.

When the SoB Codex came out they were origionally called the Daughters of the Emperor. They were a little known 'sect' that had access to 'some' weaponry that they should not have had access to. They allowed themselves to be fooled and had their name changed. There was a big throwdown on Terra and the fighting only stopped when a Custodes got the two sides to stop fighting. The SoB leadership (what was left of it) was led before the Golden Throne and the Emperor, but nothing was said of the meeting. After they left and one beheading later they changed their name back to the Daughters of the Emperor. I wouldn't think just any 'rebel' group would be allowed to see the Emperor just to stop the fighting. Any other group would have been wiped out normally.

Touching back on the SoB are not Space Marines. Right. The whole premise of making SM is the Black Carapace - or used to be. Only males could use it to become Space Marines and thats why women can't be Marines. That would also be a reason a legion couldn't be made for a female Primarch - hence "lost to us".

Anyway thats my reasoning behind one of the missing Primarchs. I also think the other was a blank as stated in previous pages. This all may be way off, but thats what 'I' like to believe.

Well you're wrong. SoB are normal people!!! Can't stress this enough. Do you know what gene-seed is?

Archaeo wrote:I have always held a view of one missing legion unpopular with most people that love the GW background. It has to do with Sisters of Battle. Before the groans and face palms begin saying that this is not the case I would like to ask "Why not?".

The main reason most people argue against this idea is that SoB or women can't be Space Marines. SoB are not Marines and never will be. Last time I checked the "Primarchs" were not Space Marines either. They were superhumans that were infants when they dissapeared. They were the Sons of the Emperor and led the Legions that were created in their name/DNA. The PRIMARCHS were not Space Marines per se.

The Primarchs were also made 'from' the Emperors DNA right? So basically it could be supposed that each Primarch got a trademark persona from the Emperor such as emotions (pride, rage, lust, etc) and/or abilties (tactics, persuasion, scrying, etc.). Depending on the if you think the Emperor is human or not a male determines the sex of their offspring so carries both the X & Y chromosome.

Most info talks about the Primarch being the Sons of the Emperor. If the records were expunged then we do not know what the other two Primarch are/were so by all 'known' records all the Primarchs WERE male. With nothing to go on the missing two could have had 6 heads, one arm and 4 legs.

When the SoB Codex came out they were origionally called the Daughters of the Emperor. They were a little known 'sect' that had access to 'some' weaponry that they should not have had access to. They allowed themselves to be fooled and had their name changed. There was a big throwdown on Terra and the fighting only stopped when a Custodes got the two sides to stop fighting. The SoB leadership (what was left of it) was led before the Golden Throne and the Emperor, but nothing was said of the meeting. After they left and one beheading later they changed their name back to the Daughters of the Emperor. I wouldn't think just any 'rebel' group would be allowed to see the Emperor just to stop the fighting. Any other group would have been wiped out normally.

Touching back on the SoB are not Space Marines. Right. The whole premise of making SM is the Black Carapace - or used to be. Only males could use it to become Space Marines and thats why women can't be Marines. That would also be a reason a legion couldn't be made for a female Primarch - hence "lost to us".

Anyway thats my reasoning behind one of the missing Primarchs. I also think the other was a blank as stated in previous pages. This all may be way off, but thats what 'I' like to believe.

I agree with your theory. I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting this or not but it could be possible that one of the primarchs was female. Usually in the english language, SONS, can mean literally sons, but sometimes sons can mean descendants, and obviously to have more descendants you need females. And also touching on the point where you said SoB are not space marines, i'm not sure if this is true, but spacemarines are genetically altered, and i don't believe SoB are. They may have the same weapons and armour, they don't have a geneseed or any of the enhancements a regular marine might have.

And i also really like the idea of the two primarchs coming back to purge the galaxy

I honestly do not think that the S.O.B are one of the "lost legions". Not at all, they aren't in any way shape or form genetically enhanced or super-human like at all. Aside from the fact that they got some natural skill.

Sisters of Battle came to be after the Age of Apostasy when the Eclessiarchy was stripped of the right to have MEN AT ARMS. Under Goge Vandire the Templars (forget their real name) had been his own personal army. No not the |Black Templars!
The Daughters of the Emperor had been a sect Vandire corrupted into being his bodyguard. It was only after the Custodes managed to persuade the leader of the Daughters that Vandire was actually corrupt that the tyrant was destroyed.

After that the Eclessiarchy, under Sebastian Thor, renamed the Daughters of the Emperor as the Sisters of Battle. Making them into originally 3 different orders.

Ever since they have been the elite strike force the Ecclesiarchy uses for its own missions.
The women are born and bred for battle, indoctrinated in the lore of the Ecclesiarchy and made to venerate the Emperor above all else. They do receive bionic implants, but nowhere near the complete geneseed restructuring of the body a space marine undergoes.
In the end they have slightly greater strength than a normal guardsman, but their bodies cannot take the punishment a space marine can.


Plus Sisters of Battle use scaled down versions of the bolters and other weapons wielded by the space marines. Their power armour is less able to deflect impacts, and they do not have access to the more powerful Space Marine armour like Predators, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts. Instead they use imperial guard vehicles and walkers.

So.........does that answer the question of "Are Sisters of Battle one of the Lost Legions?"

Hope so.


Cause if the two legions do return (in my mind the Emperor's Knights and Shadow Legion. You're welcome to use your own names for the II and XI legions) they'd kick the SOB into the dust.

He was theorising that one of the lost primarchs was female, and that a female legion could not be created, hence why it was "lost" - not that the SoB were a lost legion.

Hmmm Somehow I don't think the Emperor created 19 male primarchs and one female. After all there are no women in the military in 40k apart from the Sisters of Battle.

There are quite a lot of female guardsmen, pilots, navy crew, etc. So long as you can fight and die, you can serve. Not to mention all the female assassins etc...

And it is possible that the Emp could have made a female Primarch, though I thought he already did that with Sanguinius?

There is no real timeline for the Daughters of the Emperor though. Vandire did change their name but after Vandire had been beheaded they changed their name back. Thor used them to create the SoB. Their battle on Terra leaves another set of plot hooks open also.

Why did the Custodes intervene? Did they think that the Emperor was 'that' threatened with the fighting?
Doesn't say much for the defenses around the Emperor then.

After the fighting ended why were the women not all lined up and declared traitor and killed for their 'crimes'? After all several SM chapters were fighting them. Groups and populations get wiped out all the time in 40K.

Darkvoidof40k is right in what I was trying to get across though. There is no reason a female Primarch could not have been made (not likely, but possible). The Emperor makes his 'children' and say one is a female. They are scattered to the stars by the Chaos gods or whatever. While making his crusading army of Space Marines with the missing Primarchs DNA they find out that due to the Black Carapace and Gene Seed needed this will not work on female DNA. Thus no legion to make.

That does not mean that the female Primarch would not have followers however. The Daughters could have been formed in her name and she could have taught them how to channel their Faith in the Emperor to so 'superhuman' acts.

"And it is possible that the Emp could have made a female Primarch, though I thought he already did that with Sanguinius?"

Nah, Space Vampires go both ways. Though what does that make the Lion's bunch? They wear the man dresses.

Their Battle Robes.....not man dresses silly. ^^ lol

Archaeo wrote: There is no reason a female Primarch could not have been made (not likely, but possible). The Emperor makes his 'children' and say one is a female. They are scattered to the stars by the Chaos gods or whatever. While making his crusading army of Space Marines with the missing Primarchs DNA they find out that due to the Black Carapace and Gene Seed needed this will not work on female DNA. Thus no legion to make.

Do you not think it odd that the Primarchs, on the few occasions they have referred to the missing two, have always referred to them in the male tense ?

Both the Missing primacrhs were found, from comments made they were all male.

Perhaps one of them is Malal? But I'm just speculating.

This is a really interesting topic, I don't know fluff very well but this is really involved. I googled the topic and came up with this site.
http://www.ironhands.com/chapters.htm

the missing legions are mentioned

LEGIONS WIPED OUT?
"The Index Astartes articles name these legions, nullifying my original assumption that two of the three Legions destroyed at Isstvan V are the ones Deleted from Records (Number 2 and 11). In the Iron Hands IA article (WD 261), it is clearly stated that Ferrus Manus and his veterans spearheaded the attack on Horus' forces along with 2 other Legions (and later refers to the Salamanders and Raven Guard legions). This information is confirmed in the Raven Guard IA (WD 275, p.99).
Since only a small force of Iron Hands could get to Isstvan V in time, the rest of the Legion survived the massacre, carrying on to this day and yielding successor chapters even though Ferrus Manus was killed in the conflict. The Salamanders continue on (though they have no known successor chapters!)- Vulkan survived the heresy according to the background in Codex: Armageddon (under the Black Templars of all places), so it was possible for the Salamanders to be built back up from almost nothing if need be. The Raven Guard Legion was shattered, but Corax survived, and resorted to accelerated Zygote development only to create monsters which were never spoken of. The Raven Guard operated in small squads behind enemy lines until they could finally build up their forces again, nearly a century after the end of the Horus Heresy. They also welcomed the Index Astartes principle of breaking up the legions, forming 3 successor chapters".

Corennus wrote:Sisters of Battle came to be after the Age of Apostasy when the Eclessiarchy was stripped of the right to have MEN AT ARMS. Under Goge Vandire the Templars (forget their real name) had been his own personal army. No not the |Black Templars!
The Daughters of the Emperor had been a sect Vandire corrupted into being his bodyguard. It was only after the Custodes managed to persuade the leader of the Daughters that Vandire was actually corrupt that the tyrant was destroyed.

After that the Eclessiarchy, under Sebastian Thor, renamed the Daughters of the Emperor as the Sisters of Battle. Making them into originally 3 different orders.

Ever since they have been the elite strike force the Ecclesiarchy uses for its own missions.
The women are born and bred for battle, indoctrinated in the lore of the Ecclesiarchy and made to venerate the Emperor above all else. They do receive bionic implants, but nowhere near the complete geneseed restructuring of the body a space marine undergoes.
In the end they have slightly greater strength than a normal guardsman, but their bodies cannot take the punishment a space marine can.


Plus Sisters of Battle use scaled down versions of the bolters and other weapons wielded by the space marines. Their power armour is less able to deflect impacts, and they do not have access to the more powerful Space Marine armour like Predators, Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts. Instead they use imperial guard vehicles and walkers.

So.........does that answer the question of "Are Sisters of Battle one of the Lost Legions?"

Hope so.


Cause if the two legions do return (in my mind the Emperor's Knights and Shadow Legion. You're welcome to use your own names for the II and XI legions) they'd kick the SOB into the dust.

Nope, the complete and well documented history of the soriatus is not good enough! They're wearing power armour so they must be SPACE MARINES! j/k. Maybe they're the Legion of the Damned! no j/k again.

Yeah, that's all pretty much very well established and indeed built upon by many of the recent Horus Heresy series books and CDs.

The 2 Legions were removed from Imperial records prior to Horus' fall, in separate incidents.

Malal, AFAIK, never really made it into the 40K setting, closest we got really was a nod of the head in the previous Chaos Codex with the daemon weapon that ignored invulnerable saves and the Sons of Malice paint job, they it seems from recent tales worship a minor chaos power/being called "malice" .He's not really part of the WFB setting either anymore either really, although some of the authors like to throw references to him and similar "lost" fluff in some of the books

On another note - someone on the Black Library fan fiction area had been writing a story entitled Rise of the Tau (its been a while but I think thats the name).

Not going into particulars, but the writers two missing Primarchs were called Gog and Magog.

Not saying anything about these two names being for the missing Primarchs we are talking about, but has anyone else heard of these two names before. I swear I have heard of them before but for the life of me I can't place where.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_and_Magog

They're names used in all manner of mythology and similar.

..you might have seen the names used in DC comics perhaps ?

Archaeo wrote:On another note - someone on the Black Library fan fiction area had been writing a story entitled Rise of the Tau (its been a while but I think thats the name).

Not going into particulars, but the writers two missing Primarchs were called Gog and Magog.

Not saying anything about these two names being for the missing Primarchs we are talking about, but has anyone else heard of these two names before. I swear I have heard of them before but for the life of me I can't place where.

Both names are used in some DC comics storylines.

Malal, AFAIK, never really made it into the 40K setting, closest we got really was a nod of the head in the previous Chaos Codex with the daemon weapon that ignored invulnerable saves and the Sons of Malice paint job, they it seems from recent tales worship a minor chaos power/being called "malice" .He's not really part of the WFB setting either anymore either really, although some of the authors like to throw references to him and similar "lost" fluff in some of the books

I'm pretty sure Malal is specifically referred to in one of the short stories in the Heroes of the Space Marines compilation. The story, IIRC, is about the Sons of Malice renegade chapter and how several of the marines compete in this race through a shattered warship that's half into the warp.

The losers either die or become mutants.

reds8n wrote:

They're names used in all manner of mythology and similar.

..you might have seen the names used in DC comics perhaps ?

Probably from both then.

..err... yeah, the story I mentioned right ? The being they worship is called "Malice".. hence the name I guess, he shares some of the old attributes of Malal but...



and that's how they refer to him earlier as well.

reds8n wrote:He's not really part of the WFB setting either anymore either really, although some of the authors like to throw references to him and similar "lost" fluff in some of the books

Sure he is, just not by his original name. And he's not a god anymore, either.

Seriously, reading the Belakor fluff in Storm of Chaos points to them doing everything they can to put a toned down Malal back in.

Hmm, again I take that more as borrowing some of the elements and improving them.

..you realise now that in a few months INTERNET will now be convinced that Belakor is, 100% Malal !

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE !

I could swear that they actually referred to him as Malal in the short story. I'll see if I can find the book when I get home tonight.

Archaeo wrote:

reds8n wrote:

They're names used in all manner of mythology and similar.

..you might have seen the names used in DC comics perhaps ?

Probably from both then.

Kingdom Come.

nobody wrote:I could swear that they actually referred to him as Malal in the short story. I'll see if I can find the book when I get home tonight.

Found the story, and I was incorrect. They do refer to him only as Malice all throughout.

Granted, it's 11 sacrifices to bring him around (which IIRC was his sacred number), and he hates both the chaos gods and Imperium so it's pretty much a nod for the followers of the older fluff.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'm guessing that one of them is the Legion of the Damned. The other? No idea.

L. Wrex

legion of the damned aren't a legion, they are the survivors of the firehawks, who where traped in the warp.

The Fire Hawks, thats what the Legion of the damned were.

This might be a little out there, but is it possible Orks could possibly be mutated Marines? Maybe the legions were lost in the warp and twisted into Orks. Both share similar physical attributes and a similar stubborness/bravery. It appears somewhat rational to me, what do yall think?

mcg3e wrote:This might be a little out there, but is it possible Orks could possibly be mutated Marines? Maybe the legions were lost in the warp and twisted into Orks. Both share similar physical attributes and a similar stubborness/bravery. It appears somewhat rational to me, what do yall think?

I think that the Ork Codex, Kroot background, and Old Ones fluff about the Krork make that an extremely under-educated theory.

In other words, the fact that Orks as a species and their ancestors are older than mankind(and thus the Imperium) means that's not only is it silly, it's also impossible.

Platuan4th wrote:

mcg3e wrote:This might be a little out there, but is it possible Orks could possibly be mutated Marines? Maybe the legions were lost in the warp and twisted into Orks. Both share similar physical attributes and a similar stubborness/bravery. It appears somewhat rational to me, what do yall think?

I think that the Ork Codex, Kroot background, and Old Ones fluff about the Krork make that an extremely under-educated theory.

In other words, the fact that Orks as a species and their ancestors are older than mankind(and thus the Imperium) means that's not only is it silly, it's also impossible.

They are a fungus my good friends =D! Created by "Da Brain Boyz" to stop the necrons =D!

Rashim wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

mcg3e wrote:This might be a little out there, but is it possible Orks could possibly be mutated Marines? Maybe the legions were lost in the warp and twisted into Orks. Both share similar physical attributes and a similar stubborness/bravery. It appears somewhat rational to me, what do yall think?

I think that the Ork Codex, Kroot background, and Old Ones fluff about the Krork make that an extremely under-educated theory.

In other words, the fact that Orks as a species and their ancestors are older than mankind(and thus the Imperium) means that's not only is it silly, it's also impossible.

They are a fungus my good friends =D! Created by "Da Brain Boyz" to stop the necrons =D!

Oh, I really to brush up on my fluff, I've been out of the hobby for too long.

I agree with an accident, or something involving the warp.
The Emperor's Children legion was almost lost due to a defect in the geneseed, so this could a reason towards the other 2 legions not being around.
or being lost in the warp. Remember all the primarchs have 2 "fathers" the Emperor and the warp because the emperor took a portion of the power of the warp and infused it into them. The greater powers in the warp dont like it and so casting the 2nd and 11th primarch to the warp as punishment and the two primarchs were nvr seen again.

SUPPOSEDLY never seen again......

I've seen them... Found them behind the sofa with Jesus.

mcg3e wrote:This might be a little out there, but is it possible Orks could possibly be mutated Marines?

No.

The orks are the debased and OOC Krork, made by the Old Ones.

Marines fought orks prior to and during the HH. One nearly killed the Emperor.

and the two primarchs were nvr seen again.

Except, as has been mentioned in this very thread, they WERE seen again.

Please take the time to read a thread if you wish to comment.

It might be Legion of the Damned!
Just kiddin
I thing that is partially possible, but I don´t relly think, is
that Emp/One of the lost primarchs saw into the future, that the tyranids would come, and was send out to fend ´em of. They did however misjudge the might of the ´nids and died trying to stop them.
To not cause massive panic nobody would be allowed to speek about them anymore.

Ok, that´s a wery weak story, but you could make fanfic of it.

^ Interesting.. but a bit "meh" if y'know what I mean.

Yeah, but I was only toying with the idea

Not a bad idea, I almost completely forgot about the tyranids.

I just found this in Codex Imperialis
"The names and histories of chapters 2 and 11 were deleted from Imperial records following the Horus Heresy"

One of em got caught diddling an underage Scout and was 'reassigned' by the Emperor, the other one stepped out to go buy a pack of smokes, hasnt been heard from since.

chub wrote:I just found this in Codex Imperialis
"The names and histories of chapters 2 and 11 were deleted from Imperial records following the Horus Heresy"

so this means that any current loyalist chapter or chaos warband without a confirmed primogenitor could be the remnants of the 2nd or 11th legion?

the plot thickens...

@SilverMK2

I've seen them... Found them behind the sofa with Jesus.

If that's the case, I think you should give the Christians a call... I hear they've been waiting for him for a while now.

@chub

I just found this in Codex Imperialis
"The names and histories of chapters 2 and 11 were deleted from Imperial records following the Horus Heresy"

I haven't seen that written anywhere before, but if true, it sure throws one massively ork-sized spanner in the works! (or throws a grot in the cogs... However you prefer )

I agree with the people that have said they are blanks... Not in a fluff sense, but a story telling one. But that just adds to the fun of all this speculation!

I'm personally a fan of a Malal... A Chaos god of self-destruction?! Hell YES!! Sacred number 11 (or is it 5... I might be confusing my fluff... I hope it's 11!)... 11th primarch dead/dieing when they were scattered by/into the warp... No mention/records of missing legions or missing Chaos god... It's fun to stich together scraps of information!

My story goes along the lines...

All the primarchs have/had their flaws... The 11th primarch was the self destructive type.

Jimsolo (pg. 1 of this thread)
Also, when he [Horus] witnesses the primarchs' birthing chambers being pulled into the warp, I do believe that he hears one of them dying.

Mangus, in The Thousand Sons HH novel, said all the primarchs were conscious of their birth/creation... So (in my story here) the 11th was all ready being sucked dry by Malal, while he was growing in his test tube (or Malice, which ever you prefer... A god by any other name, right?). After they were sucked into the warp, and spat out in random directions (or not so random... Looking at you Tzeentch!) Malal snatched up his prize!

The legion created from his geneseed suffered from the same self-destructive tendencies. Rampart infighting, brutal live fire/chainsword training, suicidal and even self-defeating battle tactics were their trade marks, putting them out of favour with basically everyone! Once the 11th primarch matured/was released from/thought it was the right time to come out of his growing chamber, with the help of Malal, called out to his legion... They dove head first into The Eye of Terror, being self-destructive and all, and were guided to the deamon world where their primarch resided.

This is when the true infighting began! Apon landing, what little self control they had, dissolved away... The resulting war was unlike any the Imperium of Man had ever witnessed. There was no army, no good, no bad, no lines to draw in the sand. The Sons of Malice, as they are now known, consumed each other, body and soul... Every man fought as an individual against all others one moment, turned to help a fellow brother the next, only to turn on those he was helping a moment later. It was anarchy. It was chaos. It was self consuming. It was... Malal!

My time line might be a little off... But I've convinced myself to start a Sons of Malice kill team army... I'm thinking 11 models in it sounds about right

Great thread, keep it up!

Mabie they just got lost in general? And no one knows where to find them...

interjecting some logic:

so, all the primarchs were lost in the warp for some time.

two of them never got out? Ergo, lost forever?

No, they all were found.

They all met their Legions and the Emperor.

The missing 2 even had statues in the palace prior to the Heresy.

The stuf in the Codex Imperialis is oyt of date, much of the fluff from then has been revised.

Their statues were said to be missing/ rubble weren't they? I'm sure in the HH books as Dorn is walking through the Imperial Palace he notices the gaps.

There's been so many subtle comments by all the 'known' primarchs about not angering daddy emperor, seeing His wrath unleashed before etc. (Can't remember which one said that) The Primarchs know who were the missing two, they just don't talk that much about them.

I agree, in a fashion, with Overlord. When the incubation chambers were scattered to the warp, who says that two didn't get out? After being corrupted so much by the Chaos Gods, the Emperor finds them, they attack or something similar, Daddy lays the smack down?

Be interesting to see a HH book on the matter though.

The statues had been removed, the Imperial Fist guy who later founds the BT's wanted to tear down the ones of the renegades as well, they are covered up at the time.

There's been so many subtle comments by all the 'known' primarchs about not angering daddy emperor, seeing His wrath unleashed before etc. (Can't remember which one said that) The Primarchs know who were the missing two, they just don't talk that much about them.

Indeed.
..of course I guess people could just ask Bjorn what happened to them..

Bjorn? Enlighten me please...

They could've even been a bargain to the warp when they were being created? Surely the Emperor couldn't take all 4 CG at the same time, if that is they managed to stick together for long enough to do that?

Bjorn the fell handed.

He was there at the HH, he knew Russ, he was in his wolfguard.

If there's anyone left in the 41M who might knbow what happened to them...it's him.

Cheers for that, had a little brain fart. There's also most likely some of the CSM's who would know, Night Lords or Thousand Sons especially.

Problem with Bjorn though, is most dreds tend to seem a bit senile eventually, too much time in a tin box or something.

I suspect this thread is similar to how the careers of the two lost primarchs went. Start off promising, thought cliche (theres 18 other primarchs/million of these threads) Then foolish and ignorant ideas take hold(bolter boomerang, I'm telling you its genius!/LotD are a lost legion Sigmar!!!). They are rebuffed by the emperor (knowledgeable posters), but they cannot stop, they are so sure these ideas they have are good! Naturally one pirate grew up on a pirate world and the other on a ninja world. They hate each other intensely. Finally its clear that this problem is one without a solution. The emperor banishes them to beyond the southern fringe, they are no longer part of his empire. "Son..." he says "I am disappoint". And lo the 2nd and Eleventh primrachs were erased from history.

reds8n wrote:The statues had been removed, the Imperial Fist guy who later founds the BT's wanted to tear down the ones of the renegades as well, they are covered up at the time.

There's been so many subtle comments by all the 'known' primarchs about not angering daddy emperor, seeing His wrath unleashed before etc. (Can't remember which one said that) The Primarchs know who were the missing two, they just don't talk that much about them.

Indeed.
..of course I guess people could just ask Bjorn what happened to them..

I like that idea.


and bjorn is said to very lucid is he not?

I suspect that i know who one of the missing primarchs is.


NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-

Doomrider!

NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-


He likes cocane, and I am pretty sure the Imperium has a say no to drugs policy.

What about Ahriman? Couldn't he know something, and isn't there a book on him or something?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about Angor is it? He's a "daemonicefied primach of the world eaters legion, If he's a primach he should know, and since he's still alive we can ask him!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh wait..

Custodes/Bjorn are the ones to ask. Wouldn't get you anywhere unless you were really special.

My mother tells me I'm special...

I think the biggest clue as to the nature of 2 and 11 is probably the fact that they were deleted at all. They must have done something pretty shocking to warrant that...

Disclaimer: I do not believe there is a real answer to the lost legions, but if there were this is how I might try to reason it out... What follows is not logic.

For example: Horus sold his soul to chaos, invaded Earth, killed the God Emperor - Saviour of Humanity, and tried to destroy the galaxy... Yet he manages to not get himself deleted from imperial records. Similarly the other traitor legions were not deleted from the records.

If we were to (perhaps foolishly) assume that the imperium is consistent in who it does and does not delete records of... it might be safe to say that joining Horus and turning to chaos does not get you deleted.

I think it is also unlikely that 2 and 11 simply became a secret branch within the impirium and just had their records deleted to hide their origins. That also seems inconsistent. Why would the imperium go to such pains to hide their existence and origin and not do the same for other sensitive departments like the inquisition, grey knights, custodes, assassins etc...

My guess is that the Legion records were deleted because they contained something about that era, which contradicts current imperial dogma. The timing of the records being deleted would also suggest that said dogma was 'inserted' into imperial history or became politically important after some 'change in ideas' following the Horus heresy.

This might also then suggest that the stuff we are told about that era is partly untrue. If 2 and 11 did play a part in the HH... Then I find it a bit too convenient that the legion records could be deleted cleanly, without leaving holes in the rest of the story.

There is some quite detailed fluff on the Istavan drop site massacres, and the battle for Earth which all adds up nicely without the lost legions being present. Which would mean either they were off somewhere else and didn't get involved (then presumably had their records deleted for not being interesting enough). Or the stories were edited to fill the gaps. I would argue that the lost legions did play a role during the Horus Heresy, otherwise there would be little reason to delete their records immediately after.

In conclusion I would reason that the records of the lost legions reveled something less than perfect about the Emperor. Perhaps that he did something evil, or foolish which must never be widely known.

I have always had the inkling that whatever happened to legions 2 and 11 it was probably related to their gene seed. Perhaps it became corrupt, overly mutated, or perhaps it was (from day 1) an experiment into 'something' that the imperium then decided it couldn't live with (especially after the Horus Heresy), or just a failed experiment.

In any case the legions were either left to their doom or unceremoniously exterminated... Then the records were deleted to hide the evidence of the Emperors mistake.

I like to believe 'in this case' that the legions were loyal, but became a victim of the imperium's paranoia and intolerance in spite of that.

I think it makes sense that both legions would have been completely and thoroughly destroyed, just as their records seem to have been completely and thoroughly destroyed. But the lack of certainty leaves room for imagination... which I guess is the whole idea.

This entire 'argument' as it were points me towards my local 'CDG' or 'comic-book discussion group.' very similar, I'm afraid.

THANKS FOR THE ENTERTAINMENT.

However, at least you don't goo everytime someone mentions the word kryptonite.

Or, we could just blame Guilliman as we do for everything. Maybe one of the two legions was active in the heresy, maybe even did some usefull stuff, but then refused to break down into chapters. Didn't even consider it a good idea and told Guilliman to his face.

Little boy blue goes off on one and has all the records deleted on that particular legion so he can claim everyone liked his special book and make himself feel special. As a result all the history of the legion disappears and to this day no-one know what happened.

Stupid Ultramarines

we all know the emperor has made the odd dubious decision through the times, perhaps this was one mistake that did reveal a vunerability or something along those lines...

I just finished reading Legion and one line popped out to me that i think reflects upon what the missing legion(s) did to fall out of favor.

*Spoilerish* (seeing how it doesnt really give anything away in the book itself)


Now, seeing how the book takes place prior to the heresy....who else could that be referring to?

I think that reference is pointing towards Magnus and the Thousand Sons

I agree with bash.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'm guessing that one of them is the Legion of the Damned. The other? No idea.

L. Wrex

I was thinking this, and the red scorpions. Yet I have absolutely no knowledge of them, soo....Maybe it's just a "blank" so people can make their own.

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'm guessing that one of them is the Legion of the Damned. The other? No idea.

L. Wrex

I was thinking this, and the red scorpions. Yet I have absolutely no knowledge of them, soo....Maybe it's just a "blank" so people can make their own.

The Legion of the Damned is the remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter that was lost in the warp.
The red scorpions are a standard (though fairly secretive) chapter of unknown geneseed origin, created at least 5000 years before present day 40k.

LotD again, eh?

This thread has officially gone full circle.

I don't know if this has been brought up, but could it be possible that the Lost Legions could be fighting an extra galactic threat like the main Hive Fleets? We know that Tyranids produce a large imprint in the warp, and if the Emperor knew what was coming he could have sent two full legions out to try and stop them.

That's just my two cents.

I think almost all possibilities, including the LotD on about 50 occasions in this thread alone, have been covered..

Maybe they exist in the warp, or the webway.....Or maybe the emprah absorbed them to become moar powerful....I have no idea.

And sorry for stirring up LoTD talk. I jut read the lexi page. Their pretty cool, I guess. I want the models now.

I was reading the SM codex last night and happened to see on the map that the planet "Prism" was "record deleted" - a pointed jab at the Rainbow Warriors.

Of course the two lost legions will remain unknown for fluff reasons, but I like to think the RW were one of them.

I think that Dorn's consideration of contacting the lost legions points directly to the fact that they are operating within the reach of the Imperium and not in a far-flung new human empire, but that the cost (whatever that may be) of contacting them would outweigh the benefit. I like the idea of an expeditionary force being sent away by the emprah as a preventative measure against the coming civil war, but 40k's grimdark isn't amenable to a ray of light, just false hope. :(

Go along with the blank theory the idea of the Primarchs (perhaps only one of them) had the Pariah-Gene? If so had they gone rogue? Or disappeared/exiled as the legion(s) had possessed the pariah-gene? Perhaps if they had allied with the C'tan/Necrons it would have been to dangerous to call upon their aid?

OR

They were assigned to protecting the Void Dragon from anyone getting in, or it getting out from within the Noctis Labyrinth. With the risk of calling on the (very close to Terra) Legions a risk of awakening the Void Dragon or even causing transgression towards the Adeptus Mechanicus (who may or may not know about the garrison) Which in itself could cause them to side with Horus? Both risks to the Imperium would outweigh the benefits of the two legions. (I like this one the most)

The Emperor sent them through space and time into the future to

A. stop a great catastrophe

or sent them into the past to prevent a great plot to destroy the Emperor, John Connor style.

Karmakaze?

Yeah thats my name...

Why may I ask?

Karmakaze wrote:Yeah thats my name...

Why may I ask?

Seems to imply you suicide-kill people with your cosmic balance.....

LOL.

Also, does anyone have a half decent looking "profile" for the rainbow marines?

Samus_aran115 wrote:LOL.

Also, does anyone have a half decent looking "profile" for the rainbow marines?

Define "profile". And I do believe it is the Rainbow Warriors, not the rainbow marines.

They were women but in the grim dark misandrist future . . .

Gavin Thorne wrote:I think that Dorn's consideration of contacting the lost legions

Dorn considered contacting the lost legions?
What is this from?

ph34r wrote:

Gavin Thorne wrote:I think that Dorn's consideration of contacting the lost legions

Dorn considered contacting the lost legions?
What is this from?

In the HH series. Dorn talks to the Sigillite about contacting the other legions, but he is rebuked. I forget which novel though, one of the mid ones...

He doesn't say anything about contacting them, mearly that he wishes he had more legions?

Just because I say I want to kill someone doesn't mean I'm going to hire someone to do it?

If you really wanted to grasp at straws i always consitered the lost legions to have been lost in the unification wars and not in the great crusade. Primarchs aside unification wars just had the emperor in command so if they did anything he could make them dissapear without dealing with primarch knowledge.

Unification was pre-Primarch creation. The legions lost happened after Unification but apparently before the Great Crusade.

It is quite possible that it was determined the Primarchs were destroyed in the Primarch-napping incident, and the Emperor chose not to create a Legion without a Primarch.

Well, this his been established already in the thread, but...

All 20 Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor and their legion. Their were 20 statues of the Primarchs at one point on Terra.

So the lost dudes WERE around at some point in the Great Crusade, but are gone for good now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the discussion with Dorn and the Sigillite are in Mechanicum. Its the OPs post...

I think that the lost legions probably came across the eldar or some race that was not a threat, but a potential allie.

refusing orders to destory them would make them enemies BUT if they kept moving forward trying to pull planets into the imperial fold (some with aliens/mutiants on them)

witch would make them not join horus but still be traitors before the HH. so the emporer would order shot on sight and delete all information about them.

or they had some soet of geen-seed/pyskic mutation that would make them seem like a failure to the astarties project and ofends the emporer.

BUT most likely when GW were creating the history of 40k they thought "wouldnt it be cool to leave a few out to creat intrest. A better story/fluff to get people hooked in the misteries that are spacemarines"

The Primarch project was started after the end of the Age of Strife when the Emperor emerged victiorious as the last surviving warlord on Terra.
When the Primarchs were taken by the Chaos Gods the Emperor found it necessary to start building his legions from the remaining geneseed of the Primarchs he had left in his laboratory.

All 20 legions were created and went out to fight the Great Crusade. and all 20 Primarchs were found, but the fate of 2 is uncertain.

I dont know If I got the question rite but if Im rite the two primarchs propoblly died when the Emperor created them beacuse there bodys werent strong inof. Or then when the storm hit Terra they maybe were sent to a burning star or a black hole. Or then they are perfectly fine but are far far away from the Imperium.

I just read the Tales of Heresy and Flight of the Einstien books and I beliieve that the 2 lost Legoins are the Thousand Sons and Death Guard as it makes a comment on that very subject in the books.

If they are the "lost" legions, then who are the eleventh and second, Wynne?
I haven't read the book, but perhaps he was refering to them being "lost" to chaos?

@bob the heretic - No, all the primarchs WERE found and reunited with their legions, but they were gone by the time of the heresy.

Seriously, how many times do we have to answer the same questions on this thread?

Darkvoidof40k wrote:If they are the "lost" legions, then who are the eleventh and second, Wynne?
I haven't read the book, but perhaps he was refering to them being "lost" to chaos?

@bob the heretic - No, all the primarchs WERE found and reunited with their legions, but they were gone by the time of the heresy.

Seriously, how many times do we have to answer the same questions on this thread?

No look there were supposed to be 20 primarcs but 18 were found! If you want to see my explanations about the two primarchs read my last comment.

I think that it's just bad writing by multiple authors who have conflicting ideas, and a gimmicky idea by GW that ended up just adding a whole new level of stupid to GW's already inconsistant and incoherent fluff.

It's a pretty far out theory, but it might just be true.

bob the heretic wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:If they are the "lost" legions, then who are the eleventh and second, Wynne?
I haven't read the book, but perhaps he was refering to them being "lost" to chaos?

@bob the heretic - No, all the primarchs WERE found and reunited with their legions, but they were gone by the time of the heresy.

Seriously, how many times do we have to answer the same questions on this thread?

No look there were supposed to be 20 primarcs but 18 were found! If you want to see my explanations about the two primarchs read my last comment.

No. All primarchs were found. Two were merely deleted from all records, before the heresy, for something possibly worse than the heresy. Try reading the rest of this thread mate.

Short of walking in on the emperor beating off, I'm not quite sure you could do much worse than the Heresy... other then... y'know... doing it right...

Fafnir wrote:Short of walking in on the emperor beating off, I'm not quite sure you could do much worse than the Heresy... other then... y'know... doing it right...

But that means..


Edit: oh yeah btw, sigged.

bob the heretic wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:If they are the "lost" legions, then who are the eleventh and second, Wynne?
I haven't read the book, but perhaps he was refering to them being "lost" to chaos?

@bob the heretic - No, all the primarchs WERE found and reunited with their legions, but they were gone by the time of the heresy.

Seriously, how many times do we have to answer the same questions on this thread?

No look there were supposed to be 20 primarcs but 18 were found! If you want to see my explanations about the two primarchs read my last comment.

And if you read further up the page ( and several times throughout the thread) It states how 20 were made AND found. And that at one point there were 20 statues dedicated to them on terra at one point. But prior to the heresy something happened to two of them. Something bad enough/embarrassing enough to the emperor for all substantial details of them to be deleted from record.

Maybe they turned out to be emo's (even worse than the Lion) or something else and the Emperor was so sad, he disowned them.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

bob the heretic wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:If they are the "lost" legions, then who are the eleventh and second, Wynne?
I haven't read the book, but perhaps he was refering to them being "lost" to chaos?

@bob the heretic - No, all the primarchs WERE found and reunited with their legions, but they were gone by the time of the heresy.

Seriously, how many times do we have to answer the same questions on this thread?

No look there were supposed to be 20 primarcs but 18 were found! If you want to see my explanations about the two primarchs read my last comment.

No. All primarchs were found. Two were merely deleted from all records, before the heresy, for something possibly worse than the heresy. Try reading the rest of this thread mate.

Yea I know, they mite have died while the process of making them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lexx wrote:

bob the heretic wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:If they are the "lost" legions, then who are the eleventh and second, Wynne?
I haven't read the book, but perhaps he was refering to them being "lost" to chaos?

@bob the heretic - No, all the primarchs WERE found and reunited with their legions, but they were gone by the time of the heresy.

Seriously, how many times do we have to answer the same questions on this thread?

No look there were supposed to be 20 primarcs but 18 were found! If you want to see my explanations about the two primarchs read my last comment.

And if you read further up the page ( and several times throughout the thread) It states how 20 were made AND found. And that at one point there were 20 statues dedicated to them on terra at one point. But prior to the heresy something happened to two of them. Something bad enough/embarrassing enough to the emperor for all substantial details of them to be deleted from record.

Yea the Emperor failed some how making the two primarchs perhaps there bodie couldnt except the change and got paralised and died. Maybe even mutated.

Seriously bob, what part are you not understanding? How could they have died in the process of being made if they participated in the Great Crusade? They couldn't have possibly done that unless the lost two primarchs happen to be zombie primarchs.

Actually zombie marines sounds pretty interesting...

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Seriously bob, what part are you not understanding? How could they have died in the process of being made if they participated in the Great Crusade? They couldn't have possibly done that unless the lost two primarchs happen to be zombie primarchs.

Actually zombie marines sounds pretty interesting...

-cue Nurgle-

Karmakaze wrote:The Emperor sent them through space and time into the future to

A. stop a great catastrophe

or sent them into the past to prevent a great plot to destroy the Emperor, John Connor style.

How about... The Emperor sent them through time to save themselves, then was like "oops" and had to delete all the records to prevent a paradox destroying the universe

I would imagine it was something as simple as were lost in the warp and died or were lost or had mutations which meant they and there legion and died or became uncontrollable. If this was the case it would damage morale and would explain the records being expunged.

Dude this thread is stupidly old. Last post before yours was 3 months ago! Don't be a threadnomancer.