Going with what I have. I hate transports so don't say "get transports". Some of the squads will die. but having playtested the list it does work, especially against hoardes.

HQ:

Chapter Master

125

ELITES:

Dreadnought
Assault Cannon
T-L Autocannon

125

Dreadnought
Lascannon
Missile Launcher

145

Venerable Dreadnought
Assault Cannon
T-L Autocannon

185

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Power Sword
Bolt Pistol
Plasma Gun
Heavy Bolter

195

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword
Bolter
Flamer
Heavy Bolter

170

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Chainsword
Flamer
Plasma Cannon

185

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword
Bolt Pistol
Melta Gun
Multi-Melta

175

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Chainsword
Plasma Gun
Plasma Cannon

195


HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastator Squad (8 man)
Sergeant: Bolter
Signum
x 2 Lascannon
X 2Missile Launchers

238

Devastator Squad (8 man)
Sergeant: Bolter
Signum
x 2 Lascannon
x 2 Missile Launchers

238

Total: 1976


I think there's quite a lot of firepower here......

why on earth are you taking chainswords instead of pistols on your sarges??

Heavy bolter is a horrible choice for tacticals.

Assault cannon and Auto Cannon has very little synergy. you want to stay at range with the auto cannon, an assault cannon is not far away from CC when it gets to shoot...

The Capter master will miss his orbital bombarment and then do absolutly nothing...yay 4 str 4 attacks for 125pts...

Assault Cannon fires up to 36"

I'm inevitably going to get assaulted sometime and would rather have chainswords on my sergeants to deal with enemies in armour.

Auto Cannon is because i only have one missile launcher in my kits.

Chapter master's Orbital Bombardment.....well I could change him to a Libby I guess...... but i've never taken a Chapter Master before, and he's bound to hit SOMETHING with his OB.

Heavy Bolters. What's the hate for them? I'm taking them cause of weight of fire. Plasma Cannons are my fave, but they're also 5 points extra. Wow. 5 points. Well when I can take a ML or HB free?

Assault cannons are 24", 30" with a 6" movement.

you should take the Devestator lascannons in your tac squads and swap the Devestators for Typhoons with heavy bolters. this will give you extra points to play with.


i would reccomend a MOTF as you are going the dreadnought way. he can fix the Dreadnoughts and add some plasma fire to the list.

read my article under SM tactics on units for a gunline.

you're really fixed on the typhoons aren't you?

I'd consider changing the Heavy Bolters for Lascannons in my Tac Squads....

How would a MotF fix my Dreads? all he can do is have them go as Heavy Support.

His conversion beamer is nice......but I think i'll stick with changing to a Librarian.

Oh and this list is largely based on models I have already, so can't jsut put in "6 landspeeders" just like that.

I would swap out the heavy bolters for plasma cannons.

Looks fun to me, I also hate Rhinos!

I am going to have to support the MotF here as well. Three shooty dreads definitely benefit from someone fixing weapon destroyed results. Plus he's a cheap HQ, plus he goes with the dreads and adds some powerfist attacks.

Also, more combi-weapons in the tactical squads, other than that looks good!

Corennus wrote:you're really fixed on the typhoons aren't you?

I'd consider changing the Heavy Bolters for Lascannons in my Tac Squads....

How would a MotF fix my Dreads? all he can do is have them go as Heavy Support.

His conversion beamer is nice......but I think i'll stick with changing to a Librarian.

Oh and this list is largely based on models I have already, so can't jsut put in "6 landspeeders" just like that.

he is a techmarine.

he has a basic 50% chance of fixing a damage result(33% if you take a conversion beamer) if you give him 3 or more servitors it becomes an automatic repair.

or you can drop servitors and give him a Bike for really fast acting repairs or a Relentless conversion beamer.

Librarians are good HQ choices too.

A few things... I can understand your aversion to Rhinos. They do things other than move squads around though. They give cover to the squad and limit fields of fire from your opponent as well as prevent avenues of attack.

Id drop the MM and HB from the squads and distribute the LC's from the Devs to these squads. Hopefully you can find ML replacements for the Dev Squads.

For the Dreads..... Id keep one of their long range weapons, whichever you like best and get the Dreadnaught CCW and Heavy flamer in there. Then park them in terrain near your squads.

Finally, a Librarian with Nullzone and Gate of Infinity.

I dislike rhinos as well(still use one or two). So if you want a lot of troops use drop pods and put yourself right into the enemy. Be careful with dropping dreads. I've had many times where they drop in and get melta-ed.

Dev sergeants never get a chance to use boltguns, give em pistols/chain so if the squad is assaulted, you can try to fight back.

I fought a list similar to yours just this last weekend. Without transports, I sat back and picked the army apart.

thrawn wrote:I dislike rhinos as well(still use one or two). So if you want a lot of troops use drop pods and put yourself right into the enemy. Be careful with dropping dreads. I've had many times where they drop in and get melta-ed.

Dev sergeants never get a chance to use boltguns, give em pistols/chain so if the squad is assaulted, you can try to fight back.

I fought a list similar to yours just this last weekend. Without transports, I sat back and picked the army apart.

Did you miss gunline in the name? Or are you just daft?

Ok rethought a bit....

Librarian
Machine Curse
Null Zone
Terminator Armour

130

ELITES:

Dreadnought
T-L Autocannon
T-L Autocannon

125

Dreadnought
Lascannon
Missile Launcher

145

Venerable Dreadnought
Assault Cannon
Heavy Flamer

185

TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Power Sword
Bolt Pistol
Plasma Gun
Lascannon

205

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword
Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Lascannon

180

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Chainsword
Flamer
Lascannon

190

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword
Bolt Pistol
Melta Gun
Lascannon

185

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Chainsword
Plasma Gun
Lascannon

200

HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastator Squad (8 man)
Sergeant: Bolter
Signum
x Plasma Cannon
X 2Missile Launchers

218

Devastator Squad (8 man)
Sergeant: Bolter
Signum
x 2 Plasma Cannon
x 2 Missile Launchers

218

Total: 1981

I think I prefer this list cause the Dev Squad can lay down some serious anti=infantry fire while the tac squads deal with armour early on. then the tac squads can fire at the infantry..

I'm pretty sure I can outshoot this list with 1500 pts of vanilla marines, no tanks.

Librarian
2x landspeeders with missile launcher and hb
3 tacs with ml and flamer
1 10 man sniper squad
5 termies with cyclone
3 drop pods
2 dread

How does that outshoot 5 tac sqauds, 3 dreads and 2 dev squads?

be fun to find out.

but drop pods aren't a gunline....

Well, all those lascannons are terrible against my list, I've got 9 missiles per turn, plus 10 sniper shots all at 48 inches of range. In gunline mode the dreads and. Squadded tacs and pods are los denial/ cover saves for all the missiles.

really? one lascannon hit against your landspeeder is bye bye landspeeder. Even glancing hit can still immobilise.....and that's bye bye landspeeder.

Snipers can be a pain....but that's what plasma cannon was invented for. no cover saves, and since it's a template I can fire the cannon without having to worry if I can see you or not.

Terminators......I don't like terminators (at least fighting them), but Null Zone will strip them of their inv saves, and Lascannon and plasma cannon will drop them...

elbigsam wrote:Well, all those lascannons are terrible against my list, I've got 9 missiles per turn, plus 10 sniper shots all at 48 inches of range. In gunline mode the dreads and. Squadded tacs and pods are los denial/ cover saves for all the missiles.

In what world are lascannons terrible against dreads and speeders? And when they are done with them they can pop your tactical termies. Your list would definetly not win against his list.

It just seems to me that if both gunlines start at their table edge, I'm going to be putting 9 templates and 10 sniper shots every turn against his dudes. If I drop empty pods in front of his dev squads on turn 1 he has no line of sight, reducing him to his laz cannons from tac squads. Popping dreads or tac terminators doesn't matter in a gun fight until the dude with the missile launcher goes down.

I guess I can't outshoot his list, but it seems to me that if neither of us have tanks, he has a lot of wasted anti tank. If he's not within range, his plasma cannons can't hit, he's got to move those devs. maybe if my dreads had auto cannons it would make sense to shoot them. Dunno.

I was simply basing my thoughts on volume of fire at 48" of range.

ah 48"...

Hmmmm

What can I fire at 48" range

Dakka Pred (t-l) autocannons

Dreadnought (Missile Launcher & T-L Lascannon)

Lascannons x 5 (Tac Squads)

x 4 Missile Launchers (Dev Squads).



So.... that's

2 Str 7 AP 4 shots (Autocannon)

7 Str 9 AP 2 shots (Lascannons)

3 Str 4 AP 6 shots (Missile Launchers Frag)

2 Str 8 AP 3 shots (Missile Launcher Krak)



If I was 48" away sniper rifles couldn't reach me while Missile Launchers could take them out.

Lascannons would target Terminators (get rid of that Cyclone) and Dreads.

Krak missiles target Landspeeder. If I get lucky maybe one gets immobilised. bye landspeeder.

And we haven't even started moving.

But anyway, I think it would be an enjoyable game! Just a pity you can't play long distance W40 k

In my codex, Sniper Rifles only shoot 36". Not fair!!
SM Codex V5, P144, right side, about halfway down.

As for Gunline stuff, as you say, somewhat limited by the Figs you have. Here's mine, as food for thought.

Tac squad,10Xmarines 170
1 x Meltagun 5
1 x LasCann 10
1 x Razorbak 40
=225 x 6 1350 points. Squads deploy as 2 x 5man, searge with RB and Meltagun.

Dev Squad,10XMarines 170
4 x MLaunch 60
=230 x 2 460 points.

190 points to spend on your Commander. I recommend K'sorro Khan, and give your 6 RB's the ability to outflank. with the ponts left , you give some of the Seargents in the RB's Melta Grenades.
So in summary...
81 Marines in Power Armour.
6 x Las Cannon
8 x MLauncher
6 x Melta Guns
6 x Melta Grenades
6 x RazorBacks.(6 x TL Heavy Bolters)

I out zerg 'Nids and Orks, and have plenty of Anti Tank fire. 12 Scoring units on table. Outflank.

Yours is nice, but I have never been a fan of paying points in excess of 100 on something that can go 'pop' froma bloody Necron infantryman...

That's nice. but like I said I HATE transports and haven't got the time or money to buy 6 razorbacks!

Corennus wrote:Snipers can be a pain....but that's what plasma cannon was invented for. no cover saves, and since it's a template I can fire the cannon without having to worry if I can see you or not.

Neither of those things is true. Plasma Cannons aren't barrage weapons, nor do they ignore cover saves.

Plasma Cannon is a Heavy Weapon with Blast.

What I meant was if a team is in cover like a crater it will not protect them so much as the crater forces the models to bunch together, meaning the template will cover the whole (or most) of the squad.
And cover saves of 4+ (which is most cover) won't save most of the unit.

Still need line of sight to fire it, though.

quibble quibble quibble quibble quibble quibble quibble quibble quibble.

lol

My Ultramarine gunline looks like this:

Captain with twin Lightning Claws OR Librarian
MM Dreadnaught with Heavy Flamer, DCCW
MM Dreadnaught with Heavy Flamer, DCCW
3 MM Attack Bikes
3 MM Land Speeders with Heavy Bolters
3 Dakka Predators
3 10 man squads with Missile launcher, Flamer, SGT with PF and Combi-flamer, TL HB Razorback with Storm bolter
1 10 man squad with Missile launcher, Meltagun, SGT with PF and Combi-melta, TL HB Razorback with Storm bolter

30 Heavy weapons, 40 marines for OBJ grabbing, 4 Power Fists and a set of Claws.

Don't have razorbacks or Rhinos. but I like your list.

problem is your landspeeders will have to get in and get out pretty quick to avoid being shot down. MM Dreadnought has to walk quite a ways to engage enemy armour (against probably quite a lot of anti-armour).
Dakka predators.....i'm assuming no HB sponsons?

I like the tac squads...

Attack Bikes......never tried. but ok.

Captain with Lightning claws goes with.......what? He can''t shoot. He can't lend his WS to a squad. He can pass leadership tests for them. But unless you're using your tac squads as close combat units (not advised) he seems to be in the wrong army.

Librarian is perfectly fine choice


There. Rant over. Still like your list.

The rhino is really an awesome addition to the Tactical Squads options.

I gave the speeders HB’s for some standoff distance shooting. They have MM’s for when I just need to stop a Land Raider. I dont expect them to get out once Ive committed them to engage a target with their MM's. Likewise though, I dont expect the target to be there anymore (even though it may have created another target, like angry terminators).

The dreadnaughts supplement the speeders in their anti-land raider role. The Dreadnaughts primary mission though is to support the gun line and be a deterrent. They serve as a counter-charge unit. I really have them in the list for their close-combat weapons and want to keep them cheap.

The Dakka Predators have HB sponsons. These provide cover saves to the dreads and tactical squads with heavy weapons.

The Attack Bikes provide lots to the list – their speed mainly and additional anti armor support. Theyre insurance to go along with the Speeders, helpful in Mech matchups.

The Captain hops in one of the Razorbacks – typically with the meltagun squad – they serve as my counter assault unit. They usually die gloriously. Sometimes I switch him over to Cassius. Sometimes Ill field him with a Relic Blade and Plasma Pistol. Either way, I feel compelled to field an HQ that will die swinging in close combat.

I combat squad the Tactical squads when not playing a KP mission. The heavy weapon 5man section stays back and provides cover for the 5man section with the SGT and special weapon. The Razorback-riding unit doesn’t engage in decisive close combat. Rather, they mop up or serve as a sacrificial pawn while the rest of the army relocates.

Stick Captain in Terminator armour. give him a squad of CC Termies. Deep Strike them in from reserve when you need them.

Thats not a simple addition though not untenable. Id have to cough up 240 points to do it.

I could drop both Dreadnaughts for 5 regular termies one with a cyclone missile launcher.

Which gives you 5 more storm bolters, and a cyclone missile launcher and Inv Save. One lascannon hit no longer means you're looking at a Wrecked result

On second thought - adding Captain Sicarius to a marine gunline just makes too much sense:

Captain Sicarius
2x TL Autocannon Dreadnaught
2x TL Autocannon Dreadnaught
3 MM Attack Bikes
3 MM Land Speeders with Heavy Bolters
3 Dakka Predators
5 Terminators, one with Cyclone Missile launcher and a Chain Fist
1 10 man squad with Missile launcher, Flamer, SGT with PF and Combi-flamer, TL HB Razorback
1 10 man squad with Missile launcher, Meltagun, SGT with PF and Combi-melta, TL HB Razorback
1 10 man squad with Lascannon and plasmagun, SGT has a teleport homer

I give the lascannon squad tankhunter or I infiltrate them and use the homer to bring down the Terminators to support them . I can also outflank the Meltagun gun Tactical squad and use them like Space Wolf Scouts

List has 28 heavy weapons

I say add another TL autocannon to each dread. Then transports will be sure to pop exposing troops to your many heavy bolters, which won't do anything if people are hiding in tanks...

One termie will more than pay for that upgrade. I just think stopping the enemies advance is too important with a gunline

Actually - just dropping the heavy flamers from dreads for the second auto cannons. I just like the Dreadnaught CCW too much. Dropping that 6th terminator would pay for 3 multi-meltas on those speeders though. Plus I could add a meltagun on one of the tact squads and a combi melta gun for the SGT.

thats the way.

Tac squads provide protection and short ranged anti-tank for the Lascannon squads and other vehicles which are blasting at the enemy.


i would drop a heavy bolter on the LSs and find points for Typhoon missile launchers. 6 more Krak or Frag missiles will add alot of mobile Firepower to the list.

I think you are going to compromise on the dreads and they won't be effective one way or another. Of course they will need CC support without the DCCW, but twice as many TL shots early in the game will really make a difference I think. The DCCW in a gunline may just be too little too late, unless you are playing against the burrowing mawloc...


But I am clearly biased...

Templar - I like the Typhoon on paper and I understand your affinity for them.

Its a 90 point upgrade for the speeders to become Typhoons. It may be worth it because Sicarius is in the list - increasing the chance of an alpha strike...

To do that Id have to drop a Predator. Heavy weapon count drops to 25. It feels like putting too much in one basket....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Road Rage - I just dremmeled my twin-linked autocannons from the Bastion set - I can outfit 2 dreads like those. Yours are dead sexy.

I edited the list above to reflect feedback.

Where on earth does one get Autocannons for Dreadnought?

I'm tempted to take Termies instead of Dreadnoughts now........
Especially with the Librarian being in Terminator Armour.

OK List revised:

Librarian
Vortex Of Doom
Null Zone
Terminator Armour w/ Storm Shield

140

ELITES:

Dreadnought
T-L Autocannon
T-L Autocannon

125

Dreadnought
Missile Launcher
T-L Lascannon

145

Dreadnought
T-L Autocannon
T-L Autocannon

125


TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword
Bolt Pistol
Plasma Gun
Plasma Cannon

185

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword
Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Plasma Cannon

175

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Chainsword
Flamer
Plasma Cannon

185

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword
Bolt Pistol
Plasma Gun
Plasma Cannon

185

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Chainsword
Plasma Gun
Plasma Cannon

195

HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastator Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Bolter
Signum
x 2 Lascannon
X 2Missile Launchers

270

Devastator Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Bolter
Signum
x 2 Lascannon
x 2 Missile Launchers

270

Total: 2000

10 man Dev squads means I can combat squad them and position lascannons throughout the army. Plasma Cannons are way to go with Gunline. And Terminators are not.

Looks a lot better right now.

I will just drop Wortex of Doom on the Libby, I'll like The Avenger instead.

Pay attention on all this "Gets Hot" heavy weapons, not only you'll cannot use them all the times because you'll certainly need to move vs objectives but you'll risk to see your sq. reduced by your self.

You have 3 Tactical sq. that must stay immobile and only 2 that will have to move on objectives, considering also the Devs I will invert the proportions.

You will seriously need to hit your adversary in the firsts 2 turns, vs mostly all armyes.

Pay attention at full Deep Striking army, you'll be blocked in CC loosing almost all your potential.

Expect do draw a lot of games.

You can use them every shooting phase Toban. If you combine the roll for Gets Hot with the Roll to Hit.
And the amount of 1s I roll is very rare (uh oh Dice Gods heard that).

Avenger on Libby.......umm nope. Rather take the Str 10 AP 1 for use on high AV stuff thanks.


Against Deep Striking Army......they have to endure a turn of being shot to hell by an awful lot of template blasts......

Plasma Cannon is HEAVY, you must stay stationary and if you need to go on objectives you will have to move, don't you think?

It's true that the Vortex of Doom/Terminator armor is a good combo but it will mean (in case of failure) one 5+ invulnerable save.
Give him SS to be very very sure.

So ARE Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter, Multi Melta.....

Librarian has Storm Shield


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And besides, that's what combat squadding is for

Snipers can be a pain....but that's what plasma cannon was invented for. no cover saves, and since it's a template I can fire the cannon without having to worry if I can see you or not.

Sorry late comer but noticed this and thought I'd help out with rules understanding.

It appears you think that plasma cannons fire templates they don't. They fire blast markers which do not ignore cover.

Plasma cannons are also not barrage weapons so you will still need LoS to fire them. Plasma cannons are a pretty awful choice for taking out camocloaked scouts. they are designed for taking out terminators not scouts...

AS to the lastest encarnation of the list. Looks an ok gunline. Personally I don't think SMs do static gunlines very well nor does anyone really in 5th Ed. Your list will struggle against alphastrike lists heavily as you've no option but to sit there and take it whilst you don't have much of an alphastrike yourself.

On the tactical squads why have the sarge's with combis got chainswords rather than bolt pistols? All you're doing is removing the option to fire a BP shot before assaulting for no benefit. Just seems odd. As for the BP/CS Sargeants since you're going gunline why not bolters? Will 1 S4 attack when you are charged make any difference? When you are giving up a shot every turn your unit is firing?

In capture and control you'll NEVER reach his objective so you're hoping purely for a draw. Whilst in seize ground you can either send just 15 marines against his entire army to hope to hold the objectives or give up lots of your shooting to put your guys in harms way. Whilst in annihilation against a mobile opponent or an alphastrike you'll be just too easy to deal with.

Unless your opponent walks slowly into your guns you'll lose pretty much every time with this army.

You need some elements of mobility in your army even it's just to contest objectives. Likewise if you want to do gunline without transports I'd suggest trying to get more long range fire power as your fire power is still at its best in rapidfire range a range your army has no way of ever getting into...

True..bolt pistols and chainsword is what i've modelled him with.

Plasma Cannon need LoS. Ok.

Well I would consider Heavy Bolters but EVERYONE keeps saying "oh no not HB they're crap!"

Cut off one or two Tactical sq to take 2 10x Assault Marines sq. instead. They will can cover differents roles givin' you the possibility to at least contesting some adversary objective.

How about this?

I consolidated/focused the weaponry in the squads a bit more, dropped a Dreadnaught and added another Terminator Librarian with Storm Shield.

This should give you some late game mobility to contest OBJs by using Gate of Infinity to move Squads around.


HQ:

Librarian with Terminator Armor w/ Storm Shield, Gate of Infinity, Null Zone
Librarian with Terminator Armor w/ Storm Shield, Gate of Infinity, Vortex of Doom

ELITES:

Dreadnought
T-L Autocannon
T-L Autocannon
125

Dreadnought
T-L Autocannon
T-L Autocannon
125


TROOPS

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Bolter, Bolt Pistol
Plasma Gun
Plasma Cannon
185

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword
Bolt Pistol , Meltabombs
Flamer
Lascannon
190

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-melta
powerfist
Meltagun
Lascannon
220

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Bolter, Bolt Pistol
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
190

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Plasma
Powerfist
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
225

HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastator Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Bolter
Signum
X 4Missile Launchers

230

Devastator Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Bolter
Signum
x 4 Missile Launchers

230

Total: 2000

I like it. The Missile Launchers can frag the hell of out incoming infantry while the tac squads get rid of armour early in the game.
Librarians go with Tactical Squads to Gate themselves on to objectives.
I prefer to play annihilation anyway so they'd just stay throwing out Null Zone and Vortex hehe

HBs aren't lame for Tac squads. i take them all the time.

however Lasannons or missile launchers are better for a gunline as your anti-infantry should be on your Dreadnoughts and landspeeders.



the place to get TL-autocannons for dreadnoughts is the Aegis Defense line. the Quad-autocannon splits in 2 right down the middle. a magnet or some glue and your done.


if you give a Squad a Plasma gun you should give the Sergeant a Combi-plasma too. increases the threat level. a Lightining claw is a good choice as well as it will discourage MEQs from assaulting. and if you forgo firing you can charge something.

same thing goes for flamer squads, combi-flamer is another template and combined with a LC will make whatever you charged cry.





if you have the models those 2 devestator squads should be replaced with 2 squadrons of 2 Typhoon landspeeders with heavy bolters. the speeders are cheaper, have more guns and won't die to small arms fire.

I only have one landspeeder at mo.

BTW is it legal to have a landspeeder in a game with Typhoon Missile Launcher AND Assault Cannon?

No

BTW is it legal to have a landspeeder in a game with Typhoon Missile Launcher AND Assault Cannon?

No only a HB, Heavy flamer or Multimelta. Even if it was possible do you think that it would be a good idea? Given the Assault Cannon costs 40 points so your AV10 all round vehicle weighs in at 130 points...

Well i've modelled mine to have both so i'll say "counts" as either.

This looks familiar. Much of what I'm going to say now mirrors what I said in your previous thread. No mobility, no way to damage AV14. In fact, it looks like you've taken a step backwards by not including the Land Speeder or the Rhino, the only two units I thought were good!

Here's a little scenario for you. My 2000 point Space Marine list has 2 Land Raiders full of Assault Terminators. Please tell me, with your current list, how you would intend on damaging these Land Raiders before my Terminators eat up your static tactical squads? In an objective match, what would stop me from parking those Land Raiders on your objectives and simply denying them from you?

You're limited by what models you have available, and that's fine. But without being able to suggest other units (such as Rhinos, more Land Speeders, etc) I don't see how else we can help you. There's only so many variations you can effectively make out of Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads and a few Dreadnoughts.

For what it's worth, if I were to try to make a 2000 pt gunline SM list, and using as many of your models as I reasonably could, here's what I would take.

HQ
Pedro Kantor - 175
Master of the Forge - Conversion Beamer, Bike - 155

Troops
Tactical Squad - Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 210
Tactical Squad - Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 210
Tactical Squad - Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 210
Tactical Squad - Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Rhino - 210

Elites
Sternguard Veterans - 2 x Plasma Cannon - 145
Sternguard Veterans - 2 x Plasma Cannon - 145

Fast Attack
2 x Land Speeder - Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer - 140
2 x Land Speeder - Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer - 140

Heavy Support
Dreadnought - 2 x TL-Autocannon - 125
Dreadnought - 2 x TL-Autocannon - 125

Pedro would make those Sternguard scoring, and would be placed in bolstered terrain to survive longer. The Tactical Squads become so much more powerful and flexible with transports, and they now contain something that can threaten heavy armour. The Master of the Forge gives you a long range Large Blast to help against horde, and with the bike and standard servo-harness can be used as a quick counter-assault unit if needed. It's not perfect by any means, but it's a start. In order for this to work you would need to pick up, or proxy, a few Rhinos and a few Land Speeders - I don't see this as an entirely unreasonable suggestion.

Non Transport Gun Line lots of Dakka

Librarian [Gate, Vortex] 100

3 Land Speeder [Heavy Bolter x2] 180
3 Land Speeder [Heavy Bolter x2] 180
3 Land Speeder [Heavy Bolter x2] 180

10 Marine Tac [Melta Bomb, Flamer/Lascannon] 185
10 Marine Tac [Flamer/Lascannon] 180
10 Marine Tac [Flamer/Lascannon] 180
10 Marine Tac [Flamer/Lascannon] 180
10 Marine Tac [Flamer/Lascannon] 180
9 Scouts w/SGT Telion [Missle, Sniper] 200

Predator [AutoCannon, Hb Sponsons] 85
Predator [AutoCannon, Hb Sponsons] 85
Predator [AutoCannon, Hb Sponsons] 85

now thats a pretty good list.

Redundancy is good, some call it spam, but it is good for a gunline.


having an army full of identical units messes with an opponents target priority as he can't simply negate a piece of firepower as you just have another one.

61 marines and 12 vehicles is a daunting number to face.


my only problem is that the Librarian is fragile with no invuln and his powers don't do much to support the Gunline, but he can be a nice distraction/annoyance unit.

Dave - now thats a Dakka list! I like the inclusion of the scouts for their infiltration. Id prefer a beefed up HQ - my preference being Sicarius and Id prefer at least a melta or 2 and some power fists. I get what youre doing though - maxing Dakka in sake of everything else.

I like it.

OK Rethought list for 2000 points:

(rembember I only have one Landspeeder and no armour)

HQ:

Librarian
Null Zone
Vortex Of Doom

100

Librarian
Null Zone
Machine Curse

100


TROOPS:

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Plasma Gun
Lascannon

190

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Plasma Gun
Lascannon

190

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Plasma Gun
Lascannon

190

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Melta Gun
Plasma Cannon

180

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Melta Gun
Plasma Cannon

180

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Melta Gun
Plasma Cannon

180

FAST ATTACK / ASSAULT

Landspeeder
Tornado Missile Launcher

90

HEAVY SUPPORT

Devastator Squad (10 man)
x 4 Missile Launchers

230

Devastator Squad (10 man)
x 4 Missile Launchers

230

Devastator Squad (10 man)

230


TOTAL: 2000


That takes out armour at range and up close......and puts down an awful lot of firepower with the librarians taking turns to cast Null Zone or Machine Curse or using VoD.

Mate are you trying to do a space marine gunline? If so you want master of the forge and 6 dreadnoughts with assortment of double autocannons and lascannons and missiles. Then throw in land speeder typhoons and fill the rest with troops.

So:

Master of the Forge - conversion beamer

Dreadnought - 2 x autocannons

Dreadnought - 2 x autocannons

Dreadnought - 2 x autocannons

Tactical Marines - plasma gun & missile launcher

Tactical Marines - plasma gun & missile launcher

Tactical Marines - plasma gun & missile launcher

Dreadnought - lascannon & missile launcher

Dreadnought - lascannon & missile launcher

Devastators - 4 x missile launchers

I've put devs in because I know you like them, if you wanted some help you should have PMed me mate

I would like to know what the 10 man Devestator squad with no heavy weapons is for?

might as well make it a Tactical squad.

since they are costed the same Id wager that they do infact have MLs

Mercer please. I'm using what I have available NOQ.

I don't have 4 dreadnoughts, or a MOTF, or tonnes of landspeeders

I'm gonna cut the librarians to one, and give him terminator armour and storm shield.

So i'd cut the landspeeder and the second Librarian and go with:

Librarian with Storm Shield, Term Armour and Force Sword
Epistolary
180

Tactical Squads (6)

3 with plasma gun, lascannon

570

3 with plasma gun, plasma cannon

555

Heavy Support

Dev Squads (3)
x 4 missiles

690

1995 points. Yes i've lost the landspeeder. but three dev squads of ML can make up for that. Especially if they're combat squadded as then have 6 small squads able to cover whole battlefield and too many targets to make it worth the enemy spending all his energy destroying.

There's no point at all in the librarian mate, just adds psychic defence and if goes gating around then not a gunline.

That's why I kept the devs in and tactical squads because I know that's what you've got. But to make a decent list what you want sometimes you've got to dig in those pockets I'm afriad. I've actually got a MOTF conversion if you're interested for a few quid? And dreads you can get cheap AOBR ones and then the autocannon bits.

I don't see why this isn't a decent list. well at least I can change the librarian for a captain, or chapter master.

The problem with the last list is if you come up against IG you basically have to give up and go home as you have a total of 3 weapons that can hurt his leman russes from the front and no way of shooting at them from any other angle...

Likewise LR spam will just laugh at all those missile launchers. Against certain armies you'll do really well but your lack of melta and mobility will make you too easy to deal with for too many armies.

The libby is 180 points of nothing too he doesn't seem to have any place in your list. You have no counter charge unit and loads of plasma that will be wasted against hordes. Killer kan wall army will laugh at you and munch you.

You've got a lot of bodies but with so little mobility and some many games requiring you to make it across the board you'll really struggle to actually complete mission objectives. No gating the libby with a tac squad late game won't cover for this.

Chapter Master might be a better fit. Give him a storm bolter but otherwise keep him vanilla, his orbital bombardment would fit better with your army than anything the libby would bring.

yeah, on Marine gunlines i reccomend having all the Tactical squads have a Melta gun as their Special weapon. save Plasma for command squads and Sternguard. Lascannons as the Tac heavy weapons and missiles on your tanks.

Tanks shoot the infantry, infantry shoot the tanks.

My problem with melta guns (even multi meltas) is you have to get so frikking close!

24" (bolter range) to take out a tank with infantry??

sounds like a suicide squad.

Admittedly I could stick a tank hunting squad (melta gun, multi melta and powerfist) in a rhino and have them chase after tanks. but that means most of the enemy will blow the rhino up after one turn of moving....

Was just totalling up the amount of plasma a command squad can put out if pushed to rapid fire range actually:

4 veterans armed with plasma guns can punch out 16 Str 7 AP 3 shots in one shooting turn!

If that isn't a Terminator killer I don't know what is.....

Corennus wrote:I don't see why this isn't a decent list. well at least I can change the librarian for a captain, or chapter master.

I'm confused. On p2 you had a list up with several dreadnoughts, I make a list with 5 dreads and you say you don't have the models. You have some at least don't you? Also meltaguns aren't gunline; they're short ranged. If you move out with them then you don't have a gunline and I don't remember seeing transports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, on Marine gunlines i reccomend having all the Tactical squads have a Melta gun as their Special weapon. save Plasma for command squads and Sternguard. Lascannons as the Tac heavy weapons and missiles on your tanks.

Tanks shoot the infantry, infantry shoot the tanks.

Keh!? Meltaguns are short ranged so how do they make a gunline? No one is going to come close to get melta in the face. Why plasma on the command squads? Only benefit is the amount of plasma, still no reason to not put them on tact squads. Missiles on the tanks? Tanks have hunter killers which are anti vehicle, not anti infantry.

I have three dreadnoughts now mercer. Two normal ones and one Vet I can say "counts as normal".

And I agree about melta. Even Multi-Melta means you have to get in return fire range.

Ok so you're only two short then, AOBR are very cheap if you're worried about money.

Aye that about melta. Best thing you do can is spam missile launchers or lascannons; seems your devs have missiles I'd spam those.

So my list isn't far off what you've got then

I'm not getting the whole AOBR just for one dreadnought!!

And I have 2 squads of ML Devs modelled and painted....

You doofus! lol. Get a AOBR dreadnought from e-bay or trade on here, don't buy 2 x AOBR for a single dreadnought you mad man lol

Yeah, stick with your devs or take a full squad and combat squad them - how many missiles you got, 8?

Yeah I got 8 missiles

And if I want Dreadnoughts i'll just buy them from local store.

Right ok. Well where ever you buy them from you only need 2 more to do a much better gunline, actually you only need 1 more dreadnought to give you 4 in total and then use the other two heavy slots for your devs - cracking then.

So:

Master of the Forge

Dreadnought - your choice

Dreadnought - your choice

Dreadnought - lascannon & missile launcher

Tacticals - missile launcher & plasma gun

Tactical - missile launcher & plasma gun

Tactical - lascannon & plasma gun

Dreadnought - lascannon & missile launcher

Devs - 4 missile launchers

Devs - 4 missile launchers

That's a pretty decent gun line packing a a fair few launchers and lascannons. Maybe drop in some plasma cannons instead for tougher troops? You could give the MOTF a conversion beamer for long range blasting but that's about all he can do really.

I'm liking that list a lot.....

But wouldn't it be simpler and easier to take a landspeeder Typhoon as a long range missile launcher?

I HAVE a landspeeder already

mercer wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, on Marine gunlines i reccomend having all the Tactical squads have a Melta gun as their Special weapon. save Plasma for command squads and Sternguard. Lascannons as the Tac heavy weapons and missiles on your tanks.

Tanks shoot the infantry, infantry shoot the tanks.

Keh!? Meltaguns are short ranged so how do they make a gunline? No one is going to come close to get melta in the face. Why plasma on the command squads? Only benefit is the amount of plasma, still no reason to not put them on tact squads. Missiles on the tanks? Tanks have hunter killers which are anti vehicle, not anti infantry.

well, i always have Rhinos. and i use Melta gun combat squads to intercept big scary tanks headed for my gunline before they get too close.

i put Plasma on command squad because they can take 4 guns in the squad and are protected by FNP from Gets Hot(normally i run plasma in tac squads, but i only have 4 plasma gunners and when i run a command squad thats where they go)

sorry i was confusing you by saying Missiles on tanks for anti-infantry. I should have said Dreadnoughts and Typhoons which can take missile launchers. Lascannons go on Tac squads because they are the cheapest lascannons in the army.

my idea is that Tanks take alot of anti-infantry weapons while infantry take anti-tank weapons. Generally a Tank that is anti-infantry is cheaper then an anti-tank version(case in point: Predators) also Infantry are generally not the best anti-infantry platforms(a Heavy bolter won't kill as many infantry if its on a Tac squad as opposed to a Predator, But a Lascannon on that tac squad should pop a few tanks)

Corennus wrote:Plasma Cannon is a Heavy Weapon with Blast.

What I meant was if a team is in cover like a crater it will not protect them so much as the crater forces the models to bunch together, meaning the template will cover the whole (or most) of the squad.
And cover saves of 4+ (which is most cover) won't save most of the unit.

Yes, if they don't know how to play. My personal experience FACING gun line is 3 riflemen dreads and 3 sniper dreads. Riflemen (2 AC's) Sniper (T-Lascannon, missile launcher). I've always seen that and one scout squad with Telion, MotF and rank and file tactical marines with typhoons to follow. And, 7 razorbacks. Just kidding.

static gunline is not an option. Or...its an option if you're ok with condeding against BW orks, IG with a few Russes and SM variants with one or two LRs. Any "gunline" must have some mobile melta as well. Otherwise the LR will deliver the termies and then you are dead...

Corennus wrote:4 veterans armed with plasma guns can punch out 16 Str 7 AP 3 shots in one shooting turn!

If that isn't a Terminator killer I don't know what is.....

Please explain to me where you found this stat. Plasma is ap2 and 4 x2 is 8. Sorry to be a bit of a jerk but just trying to help. At least my above post was helpful. Seriously though, gun line just doesn't work in 5th edition. 2/3 of the missions are objective based. In capture and control you will never win. I can almost guarantee it. You have no mobility and foot slogging means you break your gun line element and you are going to get butchered from range. In seize ground, you once again have to move out meaning that your gun line element will once again be broken and you will be piecemeal in arrival to the objectives. In all honesty, 5 man combat squads do little to nothing in assault and even simple squads your opponent throws at them will take them on, let alone assault terminators. The mechanics of gun line and 5th edition AND the meta game of 40k right now strictly clash, and with two beyond your control before the game even starts, your almost already doomed. Just my thoughts.

which is why you should have a couple of combat squads with a Meltagun and combi-melta in a rhino so they can zip up and pop that LR full of terminators before they get to you.

sorry forgot it's a five man squad not a four man.

and anyways the whole point of this game is to have FUN. not obsess over every single point you spend making your army so specialised or hardcore others dont have a chance.

I already have the beard, don't want to go down the road of becoming smelly cantankerous too lol.

But honestly guys THANK YOU for all your suggestions.
I may be a 30 year old newbie with a serious case of "Idontlistenacitus", but this is fun.

Corennus wrote:sorry forgot it's a five man squad not a four man.

and anyways the whole point of this game is to have FUN. not obsess over every single point you spend making your army so specialised or hardcore others dont have a chance.

I already have the beard, don't want to go down the road of becoming smelly cantankerous too lol.

But honestly guys THANK YOU for all your suggestions.
I may be a 30 year old newbie with a serious case of "Idontlistenacitus", but this is fun.

Yea sure, I get it. I play Doublewing, Deathwing and a 10th company scout army. I'm obviously not an optimized player but my past 10 games (2 leaf blowers, 2 suit spam, 3 razor spam, 6 predator BA, and 2 vulkan marine) I haven't lost. I simply play lists I like and play them a lot until I know how to play them better then most anyone. I win with them because I have fun (so don't just throw in the towel and such) and again, know exactly what they do well and don't. You can do it with gun line as well. My friend and I each tabled the same green tide player in a 1850 tournament. I used pure deathwing and he used gunline marines nearly the same as yours albeit more flamers. Only because he knew exactly what to do. Simply stated, learn the inside out tactics of your army and know the strengths/weaknesses etc. Its not the army, its the player.

People saying gunlines don't work are incorrect.

Gunlines can work in 5th, but not for every army.


you can't play 100% gunline, you must have a transport or 2 to take move out and contest/take points near the endgame.

Doesn't the Imperial fist special char have a decent shooting ability. No codex here but I remember thinking I would use him if I ever made a gunline army.

Doesn't the Imperial fist special char have a decent shooting ability. No codex here but I remember thinking I would use him if I ever made a gunline army.

He's 200 point of CC god that you want to use to get some re-rolls on bolters?

Lysander works well up close him and Pedro in sternguard spam can be great.

If you want gunline Marines you need Vulkan.

Even then though you don't want a static gunline. No army does that well these days. In 5th Ed where every one can assault you in turn 1 or come on from every angle to assault you,relying on a static gunline is tantamount to conceeding the game.

I never could understand that. Lysander is a terminator armoured, master crafted thunder hammer wielding stubborn relentless CC monster......who if you put with a tactical squad will make them reroll failed rolls to hit......

WHY!!!! WHY THIS STUPID RULE!!

Vulkan......you lose combat tactics (so no combat squadding so razorbacks are out) all flamers melta guns and multi-meltas twin-linked. Multi-meltas are alreaady twin-linked so ???

Problem with Vulkan is if you're doing gunline you don't want to be taking lots of melta, flamer or multi-melta. You want more long ranged stuff!

Pedro if you're taking Sternguard is a no brainer and very good for gunline with them, as they'll gain Hold The Line! and Inspiring Presence.

I'm actually (please don't shoot me) liking Sicarius as a choice for gunline.
You can give one tac squad Counter Attack, or Tank Hunters or Infiltrate.
YOu can use Rites of Battle to pass all leadership or morale tests using his stats.
You can re-roll dice to seize initiative at start of game. which means techically you can get another round of shooting in before he starts to move.

Vulkan......you lose combat tactics (so no combat squadding so razorbacks are out) all flamers melta guns and multi-meltas twin-linked. Multi-meltas are alreaady twin-linked so ???

You lose combat tactics not combat squading you can still combat squad. What twin-linked melta do you have? Multi-meltas are certainly not already twinlinked in any option I'm seeing in the codex.

Sicarius is never a good choice. Very expensive for not a lot of anything really. Counter attack will mean that tac squad pumps out as many attacks as my 5 man scout squad... (if they are charged) Hardly going to make or break your battle plan.

Tankhunters is great but in most instances again with a tac squad it is only 1 weapon that will be able to utilise it so again you'll rarely get much if any benefit. Whilst infiltrate with a tact squad in a gunline just gives your opponent a nice slingshot he can assault into and consolidate out of...

Corennus wrote:I'm liking that list a lot.....

But wouldn't it be simpler and easier to take a landspeeder Typhoon as a long range missile launcher?

I HAVE a landspeeder already

You can if you like but what's the golden rule? Take them in doubles. I haven't added that list up, what does it come too?

Oh, stuck on special characters? Read this: http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2009/12/space-marine-special-character-tactica.html

Hope that helps buddy

ok.....having read your piece on HQ i've decided on a 1500 point Salamander style tryout army from the models i've already got:

HQ:

Vulkan He'stan

190

Command Squad w/ Rhino
Sergeant: Combi-Melta / Powerfist
Company Champion
Standard Bearer w/ Combi-Melta
Apothecary
Veteran w/ Thunder Hammer / Storm Shield

255

ELITES

Dreadnought
Heavy Flamer

115

Dreadnought
Heavy Flamer

115

Dreadnought
T-L Lascannon
Missile Launcher

145

TROOPS
Tactical |Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword / Combi-Melta
Flamer
Multi- Melta

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Chainsword / Combi-Melta
Flamer
Multi-Melta

FAST ATTACK

Landspeeder
Typhoon Missiles

90

Devastator Squad (10 man)
x 4 Missile Launchers

TOTAL 2000



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beauty of this list:

All flamers and meltas are twin-linked.

Command Squad's Thunder Hammer is master crafted, so a little less terrible if he misses with the first roll to hit (rerolls!!! REROLLS!!!)

Dreadnoughts don't have much ranged firepower (although I measured 24" other day and it's further than you think!) apart from Lascannon / ML guy

Tac squads.....not sure if to combat squad or not. I guess could form a flamer line......

Typhoon acts as sniper...also protecting Dev squad from infantry attack.

Devs......I could take 2 lascannons instead I guess, but i'm not going to

Change that power fist on the command squad so a thunder hammer so you're getting more from vulcan.

The dreas with multi meltas could do with drop pods; but drop pods suck. HOwever consider you start at least 12" into the board and the move 6" and then 24" range which gives a big 42" from melta, you could run the dread first turn and pop smoke too.

Tacticals are ok but do need rhinos or else the flamers won't get into range.

Typhoon isn't bad can hang around the devs.

Rest is ok mate, just get two rhinos and change that fist to a thunder hammer and you're cracking.

I would either change the Combi-melta's on the sergeants into flamers OR change the squads Flamer into a Melta.

Melta and flamers shouldn't ever be in the same squad. flamers usually only ever get 1 shot off per game because the squad inevitably gets charged and omnomnd by something and then the combi-melta got wasted when if it was a flamer it could have done something.

Yes, I missed that. Make sure the combi weapon matches the special weapon so you can deal double pain when really needed

hmmmm well I'm planning on running this list very soon (like thursday if I can) so I don't have time to get 2 extra rhinos up and running.

Should I change the flamers for plasma guns to get some range? Or go with lascannons for the tac squads so they can punch from range?

Thunderhammer and combi-melta for sergeant......ok. I can do that. I'll just take the illegal mod of the combi-melta off my apothecary and give him a bolt pistol.

If you don't have rhinos then flamers are pretty useless as you won't get into range. Switching them to plasmas is probably the best thing.

That's what I thought. it's a pity, but I got the flamers on the dreads at least.

I'm still reeling at the thought of what I could do with three sternguard squads.

150 attacks at 15" range!!!! with pedro kantor

If you have sternguard in combat then they're not shooting those awesome bolters.

Rethought Vulkan list for a 1000 point army instead:

HQ:

Vulkan 190

Elites:

x 2 Dreadnought w/ MM & HF 230

x 1 Dreadnought w/ T-L LC & ML 145

TROOPS

Tac Squad (10 man)
Power Sword / Bolt Pistol
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Rhino

220

Tac Squad (10 man)
Chainsword & Combi- Melta
Flamer
Missile Launcher
Rhino 215


Dreadnoughts provide Melta and flamer spam while tac squads have t-l Flamers to hold objectives....

After all, gun lines with lots of Marines are stupid.
The enemy like Orks or Nids will come at you no matter what and they your Marines are stuck in cc.
An army needs not only fire power or numbers, but also mobility.

Well let's see...

Firepower:

x 3 Dreads
two tac squads with long range and cc ability.

check


Mobility

Dreads can run
Rhinos.

check

numbers:

meh. Space marines against orks.......nice fight.

Well, what I found useful are two Rhinos filled with Tactical squads.
If the enemy comes close, then move the Rhinos at full speed, 12'', disembark, and rapid fire.

Thank you wuestenfux

Corennus wrote:Thank you wuestenfux

You're welcome.

In a gun line army you need counter-strike units.
Dreads are quite good for this if they keep one cc arm.

If you're going vulkan you need to pack in meltas etc or else you're not getting the most from that special character.

I'm packing meltas on my dreadnoughts mercer. The problem with meltas on tac squads is they're not good as anti infantry. with missile launcher I get nearly same anti armour as Melta (at 48") AND some anti infantry power.

You misunderstand me mate. You should put meltas, flamers and thunder hammers on as many units as possible. You have a single melta and a combi melta! You have 3 x flamers. That's not packed in at all. You should do this:

Dreadnought w/ multi melta & heavy flamer

Dreadnought w/ multi melta & heavy flamer

Tacticals w/ Rhino - multi melta & meltagun - sgt w/ combi melta

Any squads with flamers should be combat squad down with missile launchers, but take a combi flamer on the sgt and rhino too. Any remaining rhinos try and squeeze hunter killer missiles on, but you need to take them in multiples.

ok........
I was gonna take multi=meltas on the tac squads so let's think......you want me to lose the long range dread to pack more melta and flamer in??
it's becoming a very short range army.

so

x 3 Dreadnoughts w/ HF & MM 345

Tac squad w/ rhino
Sergeant: Combi-Flamer & Chainsword
Flamer
Multi-Melta

215

Tac Squad w/ rhino
Sergeant: Combi-Flamer & Chainsword
Melta Bomb
Flamer
Multi Melta

220


leaves 30 points...

extra armour for dreadnoughts , can't afford to have them stall and get immobilised.





and

Melta is all about short ranged I'm afriad, that's the bad news about it. You get get around this by using drop pods on your dreadnoughts but I wouldn't, just run them and pop smoke on the first turn and use terrain to hide. Make sure your tact squads with multi meltas have rhinos however.

Your list wise your dreads are fine as long as you use them like I said above

Your tacticals however are messed up because a flamer and multi melta have different roles. Take multi melta and meltagun or flamer and missile launcher but combat squad the flamer and launcher squad.

OK. doesn't make any diff pointswise thankfully

So one dedicated tankhunter with sergeant wielding combi-melta.
Melta Gun
Multi=Melta

One anti infantry with sergeant having combi-flamer,
flamer
missile launcher

sounds good.

No mate just weapon juggling, though the meltas are 5 points over flamers

Units are a lot better mate. Just make sure you combat squad that flamer unit as the missile launcher has the range.

MERCER YOU SILLY SILLY SILLY (not silly actually WH40k god but bare with me) SILLY GUY

VULKAN GIVES YOU TWIN-LINKED AND MASTER CRAFTED BUT YOU LOSE COMBAT TACTICS

Dude, combat tactics and combat squads are different rules. You lost combat tactics with vulkan which means you cannot auto fail a test. You can still split into combat squad

ahhhhhh ohhhhhhhh eeeeeee ummmmmmmmmm oooooooooooo

thank you

lol, no worries

OK report on how last night went:

I lost.

Against Black Templars

My Vulkan army (with 400 points of terminators and a typhoon to bring it to 1500 points) against:

Landraider Crusader.
Tri-Las Predator
Dreadnought w/ lascannon & ML
x 2 Rhinos
Emperor's Champion
x 2 Crusader squads
10 terminators (CC)


At first I thought whoopee! all my twin-linked melta dreads will be able to get close up and pop the rhinos and dreadnought and predator. Then the store manager plonked a massive manufactorum building in the middle of the table and a forest that counted as difficult terrain to one side.

Bugger.

He had everything on the table (terminators in the crusader. although I'm going to have to think about how you get 10 terminators in a crusader even if you're a Black Templar!)

I had my terminator squad (10 man) in reserve. my two tac squads in the rhinos (with Vulkan) and my dreadnoughts close to the massive building. I'd deployed my typhoon on the left hand side of the building, hoping to shoot round and score some missile hits on first turn.
I combat squadded the second tac squad (flamer and ML) with the ML guys staying out of the rhino and the rest travelling inside. The melta squad weren't combat squadded.

TURN 1

I rolled for initiative and went first. I moved my typhoon around the building to the left so it could see his Rhinos.
I moved my ML combat squad to the base of the massive building, ready to climb next turn.

My dreadnoughts (all 3) moved around the right hand side of the building, to face the opposing force of the dreadnought and tri-lascannon pred on other side of the table. Between them was the wood (counting as obscuring, and a ruined fortified wall (counted as 3+ cover save).

My other rhino moved closer to the building, making sure it was totally concealed.

Shooting......my Typhoon fired both missiles at the rhino it could see, going against its side armour.
Result: BIG FAT NOTHING.
Nothing else could shoot, so I ran my dreadnoughts out to the wall (forgetting to pop smoke)

My opponent decided to shield his rhinos with his LR (WTF!!! VERY Un Black Templar) meaning my ML would be ineffective next turn from the Typhoon. He decided not to move his dread or pred, so it was on to his shooting stage.

First off the dread. He fire ML first. Missed my lead dreadnought. Then the T-L Lascannon. He scored a penetrating hit. I FAILED MY COVER SAVE! ARRGH. Result: EXPLODES. but didn't cause any other damage cause it was a 1" explosion.
I'm now regretting taking Vulkan big time if he can just sit back and blast away with lascannon...
The then TriLas Pred opens up. Miss on everything! hooray!
LR can't see the dreads so that's turn 1 over.

Turn 2.
I've lost my dread! GRRRR.
First off I move my Typhoon back behind the building, no point shooting against AV14! I move my ML combat squad up on to the first floor of the building, looking to get some missile shots in later!
My other dreads take position behind the wall, and that's the movement done.
Shooting.....my ML can't shoot. nothing else is in range.....that's the turn over.

He proceeds to move his land raider forward, along with his rhinos, and moves his dread closer (not by much). His tri-las pred also moves a little, to the right hand edge of the board.
I don't like my dreads much right now.
Shooting stage: He fires his dread again. The lascannon misses! but the damned missile launcher causes my lead dread to be shaken.
The tri-las pred targets the same dread......and blows the melta gun off! NOOOOOOOOOOOO. Does cover mean nothing??

Oh well nothing can attack so it's my turn again.

Turn 3. I shoot my Typhoon out to go beside my Dreads, ready for some Missile payback.
My ML squad is now in perfect place for getting more missiles on to that dread!
And suddenly we remember I have to roll for my reserves. The Terminators are coming!
And since my tac squad had a handy teleport homer they landed right next to my Rhino. Which is just where I didn't want them.

Shooting stage: The Landraider and Rhinos were still out of melta range, and I didn't want to get beyond that 3+ cover save. so my dreads didn't do anything.
The Typhoon fired its missiles at the dread.......and missed. grrrr
My missile Launcher guy fired at the dread. NOthing.
Are they firing blanks??

OK quick roundup from then on (there was no turn limit cause we wanted to see it through)

I moved my melta team (along with Vulkan) up to support the ML team, hoping to get close enough to the Land Raider and Rhinos to pop them with meltas!
I lost another dreadnought to the multi melta on the Land Raider (wrecked) before I could do anyhing.
My last dreadnought succeeded in flaming a few of his guys after they climbed up on the building and attacked my ML guys.
The Emperor's Champion and his squad climbed up the building and engaged the melta squad. Seeing off Vulkan in ONE turn of assaults. 3 attacks from the Champion and me failing all 3 Inv Saves!
From then on he proceeded to keep me in combat every turn and the champion destroyed the whole unit single handedly (YES I KNOW NOW I SHOULD HAVE WITHDRAWN BUT I FORGOT ONCE VULKAN IS DEAD CHAPTER TACTICS REVERT TO NORMAL).
The Terminators made short work of the other squad (helped by the remaining combat squad with flamers) and then he got his own terminators out of the land raider.
All of my terminators had storm shields and thunder hammers, so struck last. and with him assaulting (with lightning claws) he struck up a massive 17 attacks! with 12 wounds.
I saved 7 of them (by now my 10 man squad was down to 5 men after finally seeing off the Emperor's champion)

My terminators were dead. The Black Templars had triumphed. And I vowed two things:

Never take Melta in anything but a *******G LAND RAIDER and tool up on Lascannon and plasma cannon.

You cannot fit 10 terminators in a crusader as terminators count for two models so that's 20. So little bit of rules knowledge missing there.

Bad luck on the typhoon not doing damage on the first turn, the dreadnoughts you should have kept where they was using the 3+ cover save and no need to pop smoke.

Don't regret taking vulkan for your lascannon dread, you've given it the wrong wargear! That's not vulkans fault.

If you didn't want the terminators by the teleport homer then why deep strike them in by it? Deep strike some where else and risk the scatter.

You know the typhoon, you was firing twice with it as it can fire 2 missile per turn - you must have had terrible luck if you kept missing.

I think you had some bad luck tbh mate, some of your tactics was sound but sometimes not so much. Also meltas on raiders are just bonus, not a must so don't worry about it.

Also do you know anything about black templars? Knowing your enemy is half the battle and if you've walked in blind then you've got a up hill struggle straight away.

I had some very bad luck. Worst of all really being that the Emperor's Champion demolished my melta squad in CC.
I didn't get to fire ONE melta shot in the entire game.
Thankfully my flamers worked.

I've got most of the White Dwarf mags covering Black Templars. I know about Righteous Zeal, and also Preferred Enemy (can reroll failed rolls to wound?) and also that they can pop smoke EVERY SINGLE FRICKING TURN.


Things i'd change:
Yes i'd change where I brought the terminators in. I'd have landed them right against the Land Raider or the Dreadnought.
I'd change the Melta Dreads for more tac squads with flamers tbh. or Devastator Squads with MM spammed to the max (if i'd gotten them on to second floor they'd have been REALLY nasty).

But mostly I'd change my HQ. I'm not comfortable with Vulkan. I'd much rather take a Captain or Chaplain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh btw i've finally bitten the bullet and bought a Predator. Admittedly it's a Baal Predator, but I can always use it as "counts as tri-las or anti-infantry"

Preferred enemy allows re-roll to hit and popping smoke you can do only once per game; pretty sure you cannot pop more than once, but I'm not sure on the BT codex. The rules for smoke launchers is in the main rulebook so I guess it's from there which is once per game.

You should have used terrain to get cover for dreads or run them forward and pop smoke, then multi melta the land raider and charge in - of course your luck didn't work on the cover saves.

The lascannon dread and tri=las pred threw me I admit.
I just wasn't so sure of running forward as soon as he popped my first dread after a cover save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
1500 point Vulkan Army (MY WAY)

HQ:
Vulkan Hestan
190

Librarian (Epistolary)
Null Zone
The Avenger
Terminator Armour w/ Storm Shield

190

ELITES:

Venerable Dreadnought
Multi-Melta
Heavy Flamer
Extra Armour

190

Terminator Assault Squad (5 man)
x 5 TH/SS

200

Dreadnought
Multi-Melta
Heavy Flamer

115

Troops
Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Flamer
Flamer
Plasma Cannon
Rhino

220

Tactical Squad (10 man)
Sergeant: Combi-Flamer
Flamer
Plasma Cannon
Rhino
220

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Predator
T-L Lascannon
Lascannon sponsons
HK Missile

175


Voila.
Tac squads have flamer spam. Dreadnoughts STILL run, but this time i'd use them more cautiously later on to ruin enemy armour.
PREDATOR (Yes I now have one) takes out armour at range, allowing dreadnoughts to advance. And with a Venerable rolling in there he should be able to survive a bit longer.

Oh yes, Librarian deep striking with Terminators.......nasty. and no more "Emperor's Champion rules cause he passes so many bloody inv saves" heheh

Switch venerable to normal dread

And do what with the extra 60 points??

Venerable at least means I could change the result from "EXPLODES" or "WRECKED" to immobilised or Weapon Destroyed.

You can but it costs a damn lot more.

Though just noted no land raider for the assault terminators!

They deep strike in. Lose the extra armour on the ven and give teleport homer to one of the tac squads.

lol do you think any one is going to let those terminators then get into assault? If you're taking terminators by deep striking take the normal ones and throw teleporter homers on your sgts so they do not scatter. A assault cannon would be groovy too.