I think you would find Angron, Ferrous Manus, Leman Russ and Vulcan were "stronger" than most of the other primarchs. But the cunning and skill of each primarch would make them nearly equal in battle. They just had different approaches.
Alpharius/Omegan was most likely "weaker" as they were "one soul in two bodies." But combined they had a certain advantage on the other primarchs. And Emperor knows they had fifty billion tricks up their sleeve.
Along those same lines, Horus might not be as strong as Angron or Ferrous, but his ability to adapt and his martial prowess would give him a certain advantage over simple brute strength.
Magnus, while not as physically strong as Angron, had the psychic potential to be just a devestating, maybe even more so.
Sanguinius had some psychic potential too, but I see him fighting more like Fulgrim. Flashy and lightning quick. Corax would be amongst these two as well.
Then you have Primarchs like Guilliman, Dorn, Mortarion and Perturabo. They're more likely to win a fight by weathering enemy attacks, maintaining their form and exploiting a weakness/opening.
Then you have the island of misfit primarchs. Khan, Lorgar, and Night Haunter. There's not a whole lot of material on them. Obviously the Night Lords and Whitescars love the blitzkrieg, which you have to assume is a reflection of the primarch's spirit, but as to their demeanor and personalised fighting potential, it's hard to attest. I'd even put the Lion on this list.
Before his merger with Chaos I would say Fulgrim was stronger then he is now. I know that physically this isn't possible but a deamon took over his body and I doubt the deamon gained his combat ability
But what of the two missing Primarchs (2 and 11 I believe)? Though little or nothing is known about them, they could be 'blanks'. Think Jurgen (the smelly one) from the Ciaphas Cain books, who repels all psykers and psychic creatures.
This could, theoretically allow them to beat any other Primarch in single combat, that single moment of confusion caused by the 'blank' (power maybe seeing as they are a primarch?) could give them the time they need to kill their opponent. And psykers like Magnus would be useless.
Magnus would be a tough nut to crack.
He just has to think what to do to you and it happens, then whilst you are trying to shoot/chop him he defends himself with a kine shield.
Sanguinius' rage was such that he was continuously courted by Khornate daemons hoping to turn him to their side. Win or lose, he wouldn't fly away from anyone - he's fly directly towards them while suppressing the urge to scream Blood for the Blood God.
Temujin wrote:Sanguinius' rage was such that he was continuously courted by Khornate daemons hoping to turn him to their side. Win or lose, he wouldn't fly away from anyone - he's fly directly towards them while suppressing the urge to scream Blood for the Blood God.
To Gwar.
Sanguinius didn't have a choice. Try and kill Horus or try and get away. He saw what Horus had become and decided to fight.
Although not covered in the original Bill King story from WD 161 later sources say that due to injuries sustained sanguinius was no match for the daemon feuled horus. So who knows how close a fight would have been if both were fit.
Sanguinius broke the back of a bloodthirster.
Horus seems to enjoy strutting around in fur....
Were certain primarchs stronger than others? Certainly. I would wager that the strongest primarchs were Ferrus Manus (who forged weapons with his BARE hands) or Angron (who is, well he's Angron. We all know he's huge and scary). Leman Russ and Vulcan were probably in the top strongest also.
if you were asking which primarch would prevail in martial combat amongst the others, that is a much tougher decision. The strongest ones mentioned above would be contenders, but others with more speed and guile would likely prevail, such as Horus, the Lion, Sanguinius, Guilliman etc. Remember, the Lion and Russ fought for days. Russ had his strength and rage and the Lion had whatever it took to equal Russ's power and still no clear winner emerged.
In the end though, I would vote for Russ in a large (pre-heresy) Primarch Ultimate Fighting Tournament for his combination of strength, guile and skill.
sarcasm? Horus did some gruesome thing to him..I think he ripped his head off or something. I'm sure I'm wrong.
Anyway,no, I don't think so. Their Prince forms are (by their very nature) more powerful than the primarchs themselves.
I imagine angron magnus and horus to be some of the most powerful primarchs. The loyalists (and fulgrim) seem rather wimpy compared to these guys.
Sanguinius seems like a delicate wimp,fulgrim..well,he worships slaanesh. Need I say more?
As much as I love the ultras, guilliman seems like a wimp, lorgar seems pretty tough, Mortarion is okay (the lantern is pretty awesome), Russ is freakin ownage, khan seems like a Neanderthal....Ugh,I've got totally biased opinions...
As cheesy as this sounds, Angron wins hands down. Even before his ascension, he was king of badassery, rivaled only by Leman Russ.
Even if Leman Russ was the greater fighter back then (Which I highly doubt, Angron had no restraints while even Russ had some form of restraint, if only a tiny bit), Angron is now a Daemon Primarch. Larger, stronger, he's the epitome of what a champion of the Blood God should be, ruthless, (very) violent, and, well, dead killy.
However, I'm sure Russ could have beaten him back then, but it would be VERY close...
I believe the OP intended the question to be about the Primarchs before some of them went to Chaos as the Chaos Primarchs would undoubtably be far stronger.
Angron is a force to be reckoned with as well. Even before the heresy. Yeah. I change my vote to Angron.
I find it surprising that magnus never takes advantage of his surroundings when he fights Russ. Is Lightning all you can do?Really?
You never thought....hmm, maybe I can open up a bottomless hole in the earth,fill it with fire,throw Russ inside,and close the hole? That's what I would've done. That,or disassemble his power armor with a levitating screwdriver,and then turn him into a sheep? Magnus,you're a loser. Get off your lightning, it's obviously not working. Stick with boiling blood,the BA hate that.
Ah, not so fast. Dorn's Legion got solidly beat. IIRC, Dorn and Petey never came face to face, besides, Petarabo was an obliterator primarch by then (way cooler than a deamon primarch)
sniperjolly wrote:Ah, not so fast. Dorn's Legion got solidly beat. IIRC, Dorn and Petey never came face to face, besides, Petarabo was an obliterator primarch by then (way cooler than a deamon primarch)
no he ascended to deamonhood after he sacrificed the imperial fist gene seed from that incident. and true they never did come face to face in that battle, but i believe a fight between them broke out some time during the great crusade due to dorn boasting about his fortification of the Imperial palace walls
TyraelVladinhurst wrote:
no he ascended to deamonhood after he sacrificed the imperial fist gene seed from that incident. and true they never did come face to face in that battle, but i believe a fight between them broke out some time during the great crusade due to dorn boasting about his fortification of the Imperial palace walls
That was what I knew too, and as far as I know, it's not been retconned. Still, nobody won the Iron Cage. Pert might have drawn some satisfaction from the Siege of Terra, though I'd imagine defeat kinda prevented him from thoroughly enjoying it.
Angron, probably; people keep forgetting he was a gladiator slave. Fighting was all he learned to do. No, he wouldn't have faced any primach level opponents but he would have faced plenty who used the same techniques as his brothers (possible exception of high level psykic powers) and would know how to counter them.
I've said it before, I'll say it again... The pit fighting argument in favor of Angron tends to actually make him look bad, considering he was first found surrounded by the broken bodies of an Eldar force before he was sold into slavery...
the answer in a nutshell is russ, since prospero burns its cannon.
the other legions are constantly going on about how crazy tough the wolves are (little comments appear in the first three books) and now theyre officially the emperors exectioners.
He made russ and his wolves for one purpose.... to commit brothercide.
I mean he breaks magnus for gods sake. he was chaoses first choice, not horus and russ dropped him like a steaming terd.
Even horus admits they were his noly military threat, not combat threat MILITARY suggesting russ was not only an uber close quarter killy machine but also a damn good leader.
lol this is why i laugh at calgar being known as the ultimate tactical genius.
Grimnar. 13th black crusade.... Need i say more?
and hes not half as badass or generally geekgasmic as russ.
Im a bit rambly now so ill shut up..... damn smurfrage.
the answer in a nutshell is russ, since prospero burns its cannon.
the other legions are constantly going on about how crazy tough the wolves are (little comments appear in the first three books) and now theyre officially the emperors exectioners.
He made russ and his wolves for one purpose.... to commit brothercide.
I mean he breaks magnus for gods sake. he was chaoses first choice, not horus and russ dropped him like a steaming terd.
Even horus admits they were his noly military threat, not combat threat MILITARY suggesting russ was not only an uber close quarter killy machine but also a damn good leader.
lol this is why i laugh at calgar being known as the ultimate tactical genius.
Grimnar. 13th black crusade.... Need i say more?
and hes not half as badass or generally geekgasmic as russ.
Im a bit rambly now so ill shut up..... damn smurfrage.
First, the title of ultimate tactical genius belongs to noone but CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!
Second, Angron would wreck Russ one-on-one. Angron was not just a berzerker (ruthless and unrelenting) but he was also tireless, incredibly strong (he is, physically, the strongest Primarch), and an un-paralelled master of martial combat. Being a good tactician isn't going to help when your opponent is flailing a giant chainaxe at you with such force, precision, and finesse as to out-muscle, out-perform, and overall out-class you.
Angron was a CC monster, plain and simple. All he knew was killing; he knew how to do it and he was damn good at it. Pre-daemon or post-daemon, Russ would end up a visceral mess on Angron's armor.
Sanguinus have the advantage of well FLIGHT, also breaking blood thirster on his knee, his descedants somehow kills gakload of Orks without armor or weapon, also with a Protector that can threw a khornate daemon from the Sky
Angron has.... Khornate Berserker he is also primarily a fighter first and leader second
the answer in a nutshell is russ, since prospero burns its cannon.
the other legions are constantly going on about how crazy tough the wolves are (little comments appear in the first three books) and now theyre officially the emperors exectioners.
He made russ and his wolves for one purpose.... to commit brothercide.
I mean he breaks magnus for gods sake. he was chaoses first choice, not horus and russ dropped him like a steaming terd.
Even horus admits they were his noly military threat, not combat threat MILITARY suggesting russ was not only an uber close quarter killy machine but also a damn good leader.
lol this is why i laugh at calgar being known as the ultimate tactical genius.
Grimnar. 13th black crusade.... Need i say more?
and hes not half as badass or generally geekgasmic as russ.
Im a bit rambly now so ill shut up..... damn smurfrage.
You're getting a bit off-subject. We're not talking about the skills of their legion or about their strategic skills. We're talking about a fight between pre-heresy primarchs. Who would win if the primarchs started a "friendly" dueling competition? I would put my money on Angron or Russ. Horus would not be far behind.
Angron is obviously scary when it comes to fighting. I imagine he freaked out even his brothers. He is incredibly skilled in combat and the strongest of the 18 primarchs. Russ'strength is probably not far behind. In Propero Burns, we see Russ saying a joke and slapping the back of Valdor. He slaps Valdor's back so hard that he leaves a dent in Valdor's ceramite armor.
Vulkan and Ferrus are also said to be strong, but they seem to lack combat prowess. Other primarchs like sanguignius, corax and fulgrim seem to have the combat prowess but are not known for their strength.
Sanguinius iis better than Angron because although he has a huge rage to call on he never lets it control him, Angron can be manipulated his greatest asset could be his biggest weakness.
Also everyone writes the angel off cos Horus butchered him, what no one takes into account are Horus' deamon-loving powers and the fact that Sanguinius had been fighting a war non stop for the month or so the siege of terra was going on, including snapping Kha Banda's spine and holding the Eternity gate solo for a time against traitor marines and Daemons. AFAIK Horus sat safe on his battlebarge anbd did sweet fa although I imagine he threw alot of tantrums.
I see quite a few saying Russ or Angron. (When reading my opinions please keep in mind that I am under the assumption that all the primarchs were just about even. Each could beat the others in their own ways. Perturabo, Alpharius Omegon, and Konrad Curze maybe couldn't best the other primarchs in an out-right fight, but that was never their strong suit anyway. Each had their own style, and could best any challenger if given the right situation)
As for Russ: He was extremely strong, brutish, and very clever. The mindset of the wolves he loved so much seemed to embody how he saw battle. However, the more cunning primarchs could over-come him by using his ferocity and moodiness (for lack of a better word; I mean let's face it, the man wore his emotions on his sleeve) against him. Magnus did this a bit when stopping the Space Wolves from ransacking that library on one of the worlds they were attacking prior to there being any more than tension between the two legions. By that I mean that he was able to read Russ's reactions and intentions so well. That would be Russ's weakness.
As for Angron: Take what I said about Russ and move it to the extreme. Angron was pure fury. One emotion, one reaction. While there is no doubt he is ferocious, he is still little more than an Ogre. His style would be no more than hit you as hard as possible (yes he would have wonderful form, he is a primarch after all), but in the end if you could weather his blows it would be easy to manipulate the fight. That would be his weakness.
Both of these primarch's weaknesses could be taken advantage of in a multitude of ways according to which primarch they were fighting. In the end, I think it would depend more on the situation and the matching of the fight (as in who versus who) in that particular setting under that particular set of circumstances that would determine the outcome more than the set statistics of each primarch. That is to say, any primarch could beat any primarch. And if one were to lose in a bout the first time, I don't believe that would mean that the winner is stronger, just that he won that bout. The rematch would be just as likely to go the other way.
-Cypher- wrote:
As for Angron: Take what I said about Russ and move it to the extreme. Angron was pure fury. One emotion, one reaction. While there is no doubt he is ferocious, he is still little more than an Ogre. His style would be no more than hit you as hard as possible (yes he would have wonderful form, he is a primarch after all), but in the end if you could weather his blows it would be easy to manipulate the fight. That would be his weakness.
Angron was not just a brute, he was also a master of martial combat. He knew how to fight, he didn't just flail his weapon around as hard as possible. His wonderful form would far outclass the other Primarchs. His downfall was, as you said, the lack of being able to express an emotion other than pure fury. However, in combat he was unmatchable.
Not to mention, considering he was a berzerking, incredibly powerful, and unrelenting monster in combat, I highly doubt you could "weather his blows".
Let us not forget that it has be said that Fulgrim had fought with Ferrus Manus twice. Beat him both times. Ferrus on the first occasion melted Fulgrim's sword, to which Fulgrim replied by taking Ferrus hammer from him and beating him about the head an shoulders with it. On that note, there is something to be said about a being that can take a blow to the face from a hammer that "could level a mountain in a single blow" and only get knocked out. On the 2nd occasion Fulgrim beat him and then the daemon within forced his hand to the killing blow. Then took over his mind to mess with him for the rest of forever.
Aside from that he did pull the Soul stone out of a Wraithlord's head and then proceeded to beat the Avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands. So I think he is both physically intense and skilled in martial combat.
the answer in a nutshell is russ, since prospero burns its cannon.
.
I cannot remeber where but i remeber reading a story where the DA andd SW fell out (Pre-heresy me thinks) while both Primarchs were present, something over who was first to take a city and which method.
It basically ended with the Lion and Russ coming to blows for a whole day only at the end of it for them to dissentangle, Russ started to laugh at themselves only for the lion to KO the wolf with one punch
Darth Bob wrote:
Not to mention, considering he was a berzerking, incredibly powerful, and unrelenting monster in combat, I highly doubt you could "weather his blows".
Let us not forget though that he would be facing another primarch. If anyone was made to withstand tremendous damage in lightening-fast duels whilst remaining tactically piqued, wouldn't it be a primarch?
I'm just pointing out that once Angron fell into his fury it wouldn't be beyond possibility to maneuver him in such a way as to put him at a disadvantage by using the dueling environment. Perhaps even luring him into a trap or some-such.
Retrias wrote:Didn't Fulgrim got his power during the second fight? as he in intakes so many performance enhancing drugs then beat Ferrus?
Not that i could recall, so i looked. It says that Fulgrim just stands around and when Ferrus gets there they talk for a second then battle to the death. It does how ever mention that after Fulgrim is wounded he finds a clarity of sorts and loses his willingness to kill his brother and the daemon sort of forces him to defend himself by drawing the silver blade, after which he is re-energized and defeats Ferrus. After looking over the 2nd battle again I belive it doesn't really apply to the actual skill of either Ferrus or Fulgrim simply because they are both under extreme duress at the time of the fight.
yep Hlaine alot of people seem to completely disregard the Lion in matchups like this.
FACT: Lion and Russ were Eqaul on combat power in almost every way, Lion was a little faster, Russ a little stronger.
FICTION: Lion 1 punched Russ and knocked him out. This was after a whole day and night of fighting, im knackered after 20 mins running nevermind fighting for hours.
The combat power levels are pretty cut and dry i think, as it is stated several times Horus was the the best... at everything, so he is number 1.
The rest are in this group
1st Horus, Sanguinius
2nd Lion, Corax, Russ, Angron.
3rd: Night Haunter, Gulliman, etc.
4th: Alpharius and omegon
Am i the only one who thinks that daemonic ascension doesn't necessarily make a primarch stronger ?, I mean a few things to remember isnt there that mumbo jumbo about daemon true names like if you know there name you can either banish them instantly to the warp or weaken them greatly ?. Secondly they'd be highly susceptible to anti daemon weaponry i.e http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Psycannon, lastly there was some kind of a trade off whilst in daemon form they might be stronger and larger (Angron) or be more agile (Fulgrim and his four arms), this would immediately be countered by physical laws of transmution i.e Angrons now massive and beastly but hes also a lot slower and a much larger target, Fulgrims a lot more agile and has wings but his spindly limbs and wings are weaker and easier to tangle with each other.
Of course theyd be infused with a strength that only a warp entity could have but for a superhuman being like a primarch that also has genius level intellect and millenia of warfare experience this wouldnt be a gamebreaker, a loyalist primarch would simply capitalize on the weaknesses of there new flaws, itd still be an incredibly close fight to close for me to call but I still think that a loyalist primach could take a daemon one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah as for my personal bias on the winner of this primarch ffa itd either be Sanguinius or Curze.
Sanguinius because not only did he have crazy psychic powers, he could see the future, had strength and bloodlust enough to attract the eyes of Khorne, not to mention he could fly ! whilst in his artificed armor making him the most mobile primarch whilst in combat at least. But his greatest power in my mind would be his humanity he knew his limits both physically and emotionally, he wouldn't go into a berserker rage and get cut down or make a risky gamble he knew he likely wouldnt win.
Curze for exactly the opposite reason he was literally a nightmare made manifest, he was almost ethereal and his thoughts and combat tactics were there impossible to understand. The whole hiding in the shadows and striking from them would allow him to possibly get a lethal strike on another primarch without them even realizing, and whilst the sheer terror that exudes from him like an aura couldn't break the morale of a primarch itd at least be unsettling and uncomfortable (Like when Dorn is noticeably shaken when recalling the time Curze nearly beat him to death).
Lastly this might sound like a contradiction but in this case his inhumanity, with Curze there would be no hesitation no respite, he wouldnt waste time on non lethal injuries of crippling blows, if there was an opening hed go for the kill shot.
The best close combat fighters were surely Angron, Russ, Sanguinius (although I see him as less dangerous than the other three in closed quarters, only in open spaces he'd excell) and Night Haunter. They were beasts in many ways and fought with a strength and anger the more disciplined primarchs couldn't draw from. Tactics won't help you too much in CC.
After those, I'd say Horus, Khan, Lion, Mortarion and Fulgrim (who might be even better considering how many he hurt/killed) came.
Tactics-wise, I'm sure a few primarchs were way better than my top picks, Horus and Guilliman obviously being two of them.
From a distance I think Magnus would hand down be the deadliest. Magic and stuff...
But since the various books give us very different views and stories, I guess a true chart can't really be made.
In a Battle Royale my money would be on Night Haunter as he fights like a monster and is very cunning. Angron would surely kill the most but Curze would wait for his chance and then strike at angron. Another possible winner is Magnus cause he could easily just disappear and come back when he feels like it. Old cheater.
Mit Gas wrote:The best close combat fighters were surely Angron, Russ, Sanguinius (although I see him as less dangerous than the other three in closed quarters, only in open spaces he'd excell) and Night Haunter. They were beasts in many ways and fought with a strength and anger the more disciplined primarchs couldn't draw from. Tactics won't help you too much in CC.
After those, I'd say Horus, Khan, Lion, Mortarion and Fulgrim (who might be even better considering how many he hurt/killed) came.
Tactics-wise, I'm sure a few primarchs were way better than my top picks, Horus and Guilliman obviously being two of them.
From a distance I think Magnus would hand down be the deadliest. Magic and stuff...
But since the various books give us very different views and stories, I guess a true chart can't really be made.
In a Battle Royale my money would be on Night Haunter as he fights like a monster and is very cunning. Angron would surely kill the most but Curze would wait for his chance and then strike at angron. Another possible winner is Magnus cause he could easily just disappear and come back when he feels like it. Old cheater.
cool, cept 1 thing.
LION=RUSS on combat power, if i have to say it a million times i will lol, Any list that has Russ on it MUST have The Lion on the same level (combat wise)
Ok maybe 2 things. Strategy=Big picture, Think Epic 40k Tactics=Little picture, Think standard 40k Strategy: Gulliman, as stated in fluff, no one could pencil push as well as him. Tactics: Lion El'Johnson, as stated in fluff, he nearly conquered as many worlds as Horus, in almost half the time. Lion and Russ were nearly the best primarchs (all round) with ony Sanguinius and Horus infront.
Russ was created to kill his brothers period. The Lion wasnt equal to him he sucker punched him after russ disengaged having had his hands around emo el johnsons thrpat about to kill him. as for angron he was a moron, he was lobotomised for gods sake, hes a one string guitar who just cant adapt like his brothers. Physically i think the primarchs were very similar in terms of strength and resillience but russ was a freakin werewolf. he had everything the other rpimarchs had plus a dash of lykan plus having grown up fighting kraken and other such nasties. he nearly beats the emperor in cqc and horus fears him. if rumors are to be believed he killed one of the missing primarchs and the super psyker.
russ would win because thats what the emperor made him for there is no other outcome.
oh and demonism sucks anyway. a normal marine can become a demon prince and they aint so tough plus the gods wouldnt want to give them too much power because theyd be a threat to them like the emperor was.
in my opinion the top trumps looks like this
Russ (made to kill primarchs)
Horus (generally badass)
Magnus (second in psychic might only to the emperor)
Sanguinius ( could see the future and fly)
The Lion (kept up with primarch killer 4 days and is a genius)
Angron (tough but comparitively stupid)
and then everyone else with Gulliman the feeble and Alpha and Omega at the bottom.
BTW Gulliman had the biggest legion and still had less victories than horus, russ, the lion, and sanguinius so how is this guy a tactical genius? he was a douche who even with the biggest army still couldnt keep up with his brother, that makes him weak and stupid.
Mit Gas wrote:The best close combat fighters were surely Angron, Russ, Sanguinius (although I see him as less dangerous than the other three in closed quarters, only in open spaces he'd excell) and Night Haunter. They were beasts in many ways and fought with a strength and anger the more disciplined primarchs couldn't draw from. Tactics won't help you too much in CC.
After those, I'd say Horus, Khan, Lion, Mortarion and Fulgrim (who might be even better considering how many he hurt/killed) came.
Tactics-wise, I'm sure a few primarchs were way better than my top picks, Horus and Guilliman obviously being two of them.
From a distance I think Magnus would hand down be the deadliest. Magic and stuff...
But since the various books give us very different views and stories, I guess a true chart can't really be made.
In a Battle Royale my money would be on Night Haunter as he fights like a monster and is very cunning. Angron would surely kill the most but Curze would wait for his chance and then strike at angron. Another possible winner is Magnus cause he could easily just disappear and come back when he feels like it. Old cheater.
cool, cept 1 thing.
LION=RUSS on combat power, if i have to say it a million times i will lol, Any list that has Russ on it MUST have The Lion on the same level (combat wise)
Ok maybe 2 things.
Strategy=Big picture, Think Epic 40k Tactics=Little picture, Think standard 40k Strategy: Gulliman, as stated in fluff, no one could pencil push as well as him.
Tactics: Lion El'Johnson, as stated in fluff, he nearly conquered as many worlds as Horus, in almost half the time.
Lion and Russ were nearly the best primarchs (all round) with ony Sanguinius and Horus infront.
Yeah, the whole argument with Lion and Russ being so uber is only because of lame fanboys who need to make their Space Puppies and Emo Angels sound cool, espeiclaly Emo Angels cause it's clear that the pansy with lame name syndrome (Lion El Johnson? Oh boy, lamest primarch name ever) is nowhere near the best physical fighter. They're not so damn great but I believe Russ would still be high up the chain as he's a great fighter in many ways. I'd bet 10 bucks that Angron would easily rip those two apart though and could easily see Night Haunter ambush them and then rip them apart. Leman was maybe born to kill his brothers and has the stuff to do it but the circumstances turned Angron into a beast and I think the uber-wolf is a bit less deadly than the raging psychopath that is Angron who's constantly pissed off. And neither tactics nor strategy will help you very much in a small room with Angron in it, so the bonuses the other primarchs would have are kinda non-existant even if he was so much dumber like you all claim. Angron was surely not the smartest but there's a difference between a psychopath and a moron.
As for best primarchs regarding all aspects... impossible to say that Lion ranks up there. Not enough suggests it, only DA fanboyism. I'd say Horus and Sanguinius, although I think Blood Angels and Sang are damn lame, kinda like Horus is damn lame.
So I'll suggest the situations where each one would be the best and hope to see you spout as much hate and vitriol as me when you pick your favorites.
You in a forest or a deserted city getting ambushed - Night Haunter
You in a small room with 1 exit - Angron
You a few hundred meters away from the primarch - Magnus
You fighting a huge army with yours - Guilliman, Horus (maybe El Johnson)
Best picks in balanced battle situations - Russ, Horus, Sanguinius
Oh and you anywhere - The Emperor (one of the few loyalists that I like next to poor Dorn and even porrer Ferrus Manus)
pretty much all the primarchs are equal it just depends on circumstances and terrain even on luck they are all good at serperate things but all know each other weaknesses its = on all levels
horus only mashed up horus because he had the power of 4 chaos gods and the articfacts to back up while sanguinis only had the power and equipment of his chapter
and the whole Russ vs the lion debate is 100% true they are both equal with speed/ strength slightly different and the lion won after russ stopped and laughed at the whole 24 hours fighting thing at that point the lion 1 punched him while he let his guard down xD
i dont know why were still debating this lol prospero burns has said in explicit terms that russ is the primarch executioner and horus himself admits to fearing him and his legion.
i think post chaos horus would give russ a good kickin but where the hell is everyone getting there angron sources from?
hes just a nut job with a couple of big probably quite slow axes, mortarion would just shoot angron in the face and that would be that and mortarions laaaaaame.
pre chaos russ owns all of them simply by being made better, post chaos and say hes second to horus.
lol i dont even know why im writing this coz nobody will listen but yeh RUSS RULES And everyone who says otherwise is arguin against the same factual cannon that there trying to base their arguement on.
the rout wrote:BTW Gulliman had the biggest legion and still had less victories than horus, russ, the lion, and sanguinius so how is this guy a tactical genius? he was a douche who even with the biggest army still couldnt keep up with his brother, that makes him weak and stupid.
Hey, calm down on the Smurf-bashing. Stop saying that Guilliman was lame just because most people like him and that it makes you cool to say something different. Guilliman was definitely not the best primarch, but he was still admirable in many ways. He was not the best warrior, the engineer or the best tactician, but he was pretty much balanced in everything. He deserves some respect.
And as far as I know, I never read anywhere that Sanguignius, Russ and the Lion had conquered more worlds than the big blue guy. I always read that he was second only to Horus in terms of the number of worlds conquered. But, fair enough, he had a bigger legion.
Back on topic, since we're talking about a CC situation, I think Angron wins. Simply because he is described as being a beast in CC. Some primarchs would certainly put up a great resistance (Russ the primarch killer, Horus the badass, sanguinius the flyboy...), but as Mit Gas said, in a small room with one exit, Angron is going to smash you down with your own spine.
Emperor could take them all, and he's not as strong or martial as any of the primarchs. The only power he has is his psychic power, but that makes him more powerful than any of his sons.
Magnus was to be his successor, and was the only one who could even understand the power of the warp.
No question that Magnus would obliterate any of his brothers if he so desired. Heck, look at the end of A Thousand Sons, the author realized how powerful Magnus is in the fluff and made him nearly throw himself at Russ' feet.
If Magnus and the Thousand Sons had fought the evil space puppies with everything they had, Russ would still be floating in the warp, or a demon turd.
if magnus could have done that so easily why would the emperor send him? o die? dont be silly. and if angron had russ in a little room with one eit russ would shoot at his face, angron would block with his axes, russ would kick him out the door and use the space to make angron look as stupid as he is. plus their friggin CHAINaxes, lol dont even take invuns from em, frost blades? well thats a different story.
oh and guilliman hating isnt to be cool its because hes not, hes bland, without personality, and has the audacity to think he knows whats best for the other legions. he dies by fulgrims blade 2... i rest my case.
the rout wrote:if magnus could have done that so easily why would the emperor send him? o die? dont be silly.
Well, first of all, Horus is the one who sent Russ (of the notorious mutation-infected legion) to kill Magnus. So it is possible that the intent was to kill, delay, or further corrupt Russ. However, Horus probably didn't realize that Russ was complacent in the Emperor's betrayal of the Primarchs.
Second, read "A Thousand Sons." After opening his eye to the warp, Magnus is very aware of what transpires there (having allied himself to the same powers that the Emperor embraced and betrayed). Magnus sees the ships of Russ approaching Prospero, and could have diverted them with a thought. But because he had become emo, he let the ships come and attack his home.
Finally, eventually Magnus realized he wasn't the Emperor's slave (unlike Russ and the 'loyalists') and decided to shake off his Stockholm Syndrome and live.
Magnus is head and shoulders (literally as well as figuratively) above his brother Primarchs.
the emperor sent them you fool, horus tricked russ into wanting to kill magnus instead of capturing him but the order to be there was the emperors. horus has no authority over the custodes or the sisters, they belong to the emperor.
plus as you say he could have diverted them, not destroy divert. Prospero Burning was inevitable, Magnus couldnt stop it because head already given up, not to mention russ is damn near psyker proof so even chaos horus would have to fight him cc and thats where russ owns.
oh and the space wolf "mutation" was deliberate, the cup of the wulfen was brought from terra because only aspirants who drank from it could be given a geneseed and obviously there was a legion before the emperor found russ.
lol please read the fluff before posting, otherwise you just look silly.
I got to say the last two would be Sanguinius and Angron, with Angron winning. However it is said all the primarch have some measure of the emperor's abilities such as invisibility (?), speed, tactical genius and brute strength (correct me if i'm wrong please), so I thinking what abilities could the primarch's have had that would give them an advantage over another? Angron definitely having pure strength and killy powers.
Magnus weakness was his compassion, kinda like the Emperor's.I think they were closer in character than most think. Magnus lost so badly because he didn't fight really back. In no way do I believe that he could've easily won or beat Russ, especially not in close combat, but from a distance things might've looked completely different. And Magnus had that distance. But it shows what a damn slow Russ is to happily follow such an order, even if Horus was trustworthy. He could've checked back.
IMO this is what makes the sons so interesting. They are tragic, predetermined to be obliterated and driven to the one true master of the galaxy, Tzeentch. I love Tzeentch despite screwing my two other favourite characters, Magnus and the Emperor, over.
Well, I tried to understand your post Mr. Rout, but lacking any reasonable attempt at grammar, spelling, or punctuation, I am going to assume you meant to say "SPAHSE MAREENZ".
The fluff is intentionally written from an Imperialist perspective, with the purpose of making the Imperium and Emperor look infallible, while making the enemies of the Imperium look like bumbling idiots. The Horus Heresy books make it clear that the Primarchs that turned to Chaos would have had no problem overthrowing the Imperium if they weren't infected with a terminal case of stupid emo drak.
But Magnus (again) is shown to be as far above his brothers as they are above the Astartes. Only the Emperor is stronger than Magnus, and that is a near thing.
Also,
the rout wrote:lol please read the fluff before posting, otherwise you just look silly.
I have read the fluff. And I understand how to read between the lines. The fluff is written as Imperial propaganda, you cannot take (most of) it at face value.
karimabuseer wrote:Ferrus Manus who was cut down by that loser Fulgrim?! Horus would beat them imo. But then again...gotta stick with my Black Legion routes
'Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy in his grasp..and he let it slip away'.
Samus_aran115 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:What about Sanguinius vs Horus?
sarcasm? Horus did some gruesome thing to him..I think he ripped his head off or something. I'm sure I'm wrong.
Anyway,no, I don't think so. Their Prince forms are (by their very nature) more powerful than the primarchs themselves.
I imagine angron magnus and horus to be some of the most powerful primarchs. The loyalists (and fulgrim) seem rather wimpy compared to these guys.
Sanguinius seems like a delicate wimp,fulgrim..well,he worships slaanesh. Need I say more?
As much as I love the ultras, guilliman seems like a wimp, lorgar seems pretty tough, Mortarion is okay (the lantern is pretty awesome), Russ is freakin ownage, khan seems like a Neanderthal....Ugh,I've got totally biased opinions...
Yes you do need to say more. I dont see were all the Fulgrim hate is coming from. He took 3 (!) loyalist primarchs out of the game. How many other primarchs can say that? Yes fulgrim as an efeminate pretty boy... but that doesnt mean that he wasnt in the top 5 most powerful primarch in my book, just base on cannon fluff alone.
This thread reeks of so much fanboyism that I think I can hear the space furrie fanbase fapping from way out here in japan. Everyone is just spitting biase drivel (even me ^ !). Now using what I know from past fluff and the HH series here is my take on the primarchs "overall" power levels:
Top 5: Horus, Russ, Magus, Fulgrim, Saguinius
Next: Angron, The lion, Logor, Cruz, Vulkan
the rest just fall in line behind them in my eyes.
karimabuseer wrote:Ferrus Manus who was cut down by that loser Fulgrim?! Horus would beat them imo. But then again...gotta stick with my Black Legion routes
'Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy in his grasp..and he let it slip away'.
Samus_aran115 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:What about Sanguinius vs Horus?
sarcasm? Horus did some gruesome thing to him..I think he ripped his head off or something. I'm sure I'm wrong.
Anyway,no, I don't think so. Their Prince forms are (by their very nature) more powerful than the primarchs themselves.
I imagine angron magnus and horus to be some of the most powerful primarchs. The loyalists (and fulgrim) seem rather wimpy compared to these guys.
Sanguinius seems like a delicate wimp,fulgrim..well,he worships slaanesh. Need I say more?
As much as I love the ultras, guilliman seems like a wimp, lorgar seems pretty tough, Mortarion is okay (the lantern is pretty awesome), Russ is freakin ownage, khan seems like a Neanderthal....Ugh,I've got totally biased opinions...
Yes you do need to say more. I dont see were all the Fulgrim hate is coming from. He took 3 (!) loyalist primarchs out of the game. How many other primarchs can say that? Yes fulgrim as an efeminate pretty boy... but that doesnt mean that he wasnt in the top 5 most powerful primarch in my book, just base on cannon fluff alone.
This thread reeks of so much fanboyism that I think I can hear the space furrie fanbase fapping from way out here in japan. Everyone is just spitting biase drivel (even me ^ !). Now using what I know from past fluff and the HH series here is my take on the primarchs "overall" power levels:
Top 5: Horus, Russ, Magus, Fulgrim, Saguinius
Next: Angron, The lion, Logor, Cruz, Vulkan
the rest just fall in line behind them in my eyes.
Yeah, Fulgrim rules - A tragic character once more and one of my favourites as well. And he owned so many, so in no way is he at the bottom of the barrel. he just gets a bad rep for being a prettyboy.
karimabuseer wrote:Ferrus Manus who was cut down by that loser Fulgrim?! Horus would beat them imo. But then again...gotta stick with my Black Legion routes
'Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy in his grasp..and he let it slip away'.
Samus_aran115 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:What about Sanguinius vs Horus?
sarcasm? Horus did some gruesome thing to him..I think he ripped his head off or something. I'm sure I'm wrong.
Anyway,no, I don't think so. Their Prince forms are (by their very nature) more powerful than the primarchs themselves.
I imagine angron magnus and horus to be some of the most powerful primarchs. The loyalists (and fulgrim) seem rather wimpy compared to these guys.
Sanguinius seems like a delicate wimp,fulgrim..well,he worships slaanesh. Need I say more?
As much as I love the ultras, guilliman seems like a wimp, lorgar seems pretty tough, Mortarion is okay (the lantern is pretty awesome), Russ is freakin ownage, khan seems like a Neanderthal....Ugh,I've got totally biased opinions...
Yes you do need to say more. I dont see were all the Fulgrim hate is coming from. He took 3 (!) loyalist primarchs out of the game. How many other primarchs can say that? Yes fulgrim as an efeminate pretty boy... but that doesnt mean that he wasnt in the top 5 most powerful primarch in my book, just base on cannon fluff alone.
This thread reeks of so much fanboyism that I think I can hear the space furrie fanbase fapping from way out here in japan. Everyone is just spitting biase drivel (even me ^ !). Now using what I know from past fluff and the HH series here is my take on the primarchs "overall" power levels:
Top 5: Horus, Russ, Magus, Fulgrim, Saguinius
Next: Angron, The lion, Logor, Cruz, Vulkan
the rest just fall in line behind them in my eyes.
Yeah, Fulgrim rules - A tragic character once more and one of my favourites as well. And he owned so many, so in no way is he at the bottom of the barrel. he just gets a bad rep for being a prettyboy.
QFT let go of the insecurities people, yes hey was a prettyboy... a prettyboy possessed by a daemon and kills gods for fun.
laughing god is bang on the money with his list I think except with relavance to lorgar, lorgar cant fight worth a crap. and i agree with angron because the guys a fool. i mean hes supposed to a "gladiator" when he was in the arena what did he fight? humans, eldar and other stuff even a marine could take?
I think Russ could have taken pre heresy horus but im not so biased i think he could have afterwards but hed damn sure do more than a dent lol.
And the HH is not propaganda its from both sides and if anything the imperium is the one who looks stupid.
The only reason I put logor were he did was his in the book "thousand sons" he jumps between Magus and Russ and both are hesitant to come to blows just because of his presence. That little blurb gave me the impression that he must be pretty beastly fighter or have some kind of influence over his brothers in his own right. But I could be wrong. thats the only reason I put him were I did. There is nothing to say that alot of the primarchs (vulkan, khan, dorn) were "bad" fighters or "weaker" than there brothers but GW just doesnt really give us much to go off of so Im just working with what I know.
Horus baiscally killed the emperor efso facto: most powerful
Russ was made to be the emperors ultimate guard dog incase the other primarchs stepped out of line: top 5
Magus second only to the emperor in psychic might: top 5
Fulgrim killed other primarchs (ferrus, gulliman) and made it look easy: top 5
Saguinius Killed bloodthirsters, then broke the lord of all bloodthirsters backs, THEN still had the balls to charge Horus! damaging his armor so the emperor could deal his death blow: Top5
Anyone care to dissagree? The lion gets honorable mention for KOing russ and everyone respects him, and Angron because everyone is terrified of him. Everyone else is just another primarch...Though I did hear Konrad Curze punched out dorn... haha emo brother beats up the jock... hillarious
Laughing God wrote:The only reason I put logor were he did was his in the book "thousand sons" he jumps between Magus and Russ and both are hesitant to come to blows just because of his presence. That little blurb gave me the impression that he must be pretty beastly fighter or have some kind of influence over his brothers in his own right. But I could be wrong. thats the only reason I put him were I did. There is nothing to say that alot of the primarchs (vulkan, khan, dorn) were "bad" fighters or "weaker" than there brothers but GW just doesnt really give us much to go off of so Im just working with what I know.
Horus baiscally killed the emperor efso facto: most powerful
Russ was made to be the emperors ultimate guard dog incase the other primarchs stepped out of line: top 5
Magus second only to the emperor in psychic might: top 5
Fulgrim killed other primarchs (ferrus, gulliman) and made it look easy: top 5
Saguinius Killed bloodthirsters, then broke the lord of all bloodthirsters backs, THEN still had the balls to charge Horus! damaging his armor so the emperor could deal his death blow: Top5
Anyone care to dissagree? The lion gets honorable mention for KOing russ and everyone respects him, and Angron because everyone is terrified of him. Everyone else is just another primarch...Though I did hear Konrad Curze punched out dorn... haha emo brother beats up the jock... hillarious
I think Angron and Curze deserve to be in the list as well when it comes to close combat but in overall strength (judged on the whole I mean), this is pretty much my view as well. Now there are master tacticians (Alpharius or Guilliman or The Lion) or exceptionally strong and crafty ones (like Ferrus Manus) but I don't think they'd stand a chance against some of the names you or I mentioned. But I'll still stand by my statement that Angron (or Curze) would rip the other primarchs into shreds in a small room.
And I don't get the hate for Fulgrim and Angron. At least they're not posterboys like Russ or Sanguinius. Sure, Fulgrim might come off as weak in his strife for perfection - perfectionism is a good and disastrious trait all at once, I call it my best and worst quality and is eats at your core and make you restless but yet pushes you as an artist further and further- and Angron is one-sided but I just see an angry version of Kefka there (complete with the make-up and insanity) and Kefka is my favourite videogame character! Uwahahahaha!
My main problem is that I'm Tzeentch to the core but I actually like the other sides as well...
I think Night Haunter should definitely be in the top 3, he beat Dorn half to death while he was in the middle of one of his "afflictions", he also kicked Corax into the dirt during Istvaan and I think its clear he could easily have made good on his threat to kill Lorgar.
Fulgrim killed 3 primarchs, and as Guilliman killed Alpharius that would seemingly put him above 4 of his brothers.
Finally Russ, he killed Magnus and possibly played executioner for the lost primarchs.
The weakest was Lorgar by a big margin. He was genetically built to be stronger than a normal man or Astartes however as he didnt view himself as a true warrior, he couldnt possibly match up to one of his brothers, as they had the natural ability combined with the mindset needed to win.
Fulgrim beating Gulliman isnt much of a braggin right but ferrus manus is impressive its just he never really fought one of the big bad boys. I completely agree with Laughing gods list, it makes the most sense and seems to be the least biased.
Lorgar was impressive as a leader but fighting wise he was nothing to in comparison.
And Curze? seriously? he was a whiney little emo and only took dorn because dorn didnt fight back, hes never killed another primarch nor technically bested one since Corax was already engaged.
biccat wrote: I have read the fluff. And I understand how to read between the lines. The fluff is written as Imperial propaganda, you cannot take (most of) it at face value.
Lol. Imperial propaganda. Hey, you're taking it a bit seriously there, we're talking about a sci-fi novel written about a plastic soldiers game! Don't start using the "big words". It is just a novel written to highlight the qualities of a certain W40K faction. In this case, to have an objective point of view on the Russ-Magnus fight, you need to read the two novels depicting both points of view. Because face it, "Thousand sons" is as much Chaotic rubbish as Prospero Burns is obvious Imperial Propaganda. From what I got from these two novels was that Russ won the fight. Magnus lacked a bit of motivation at the start but this ended when the wolves starting ravaging his world without any justification. So, the fight between Russ and Magnus during the sacking of Prospero was a fair one. Magnus had his magic, Russ had his combat prowess. Russ won and almost killed magnus. There is nothing else to say. This is not "fanboyism", just a fair observation of what happened.
KorPhaeron77 wrote:I think Night Haunter should definitely be in the top 3, he beat Dorn half to death while he was in the middle of one of his "afflictions", he also kicked Corax into the dirt during Istvaan and I think its clear he could easily have made good on his threat to kill Lorgar.
Fulgrim killed 3 primarchs, and as Guilliman killed Alpharius that would seemingly put him above 4 of his brothers.
Finally Russ, he killed Magnus and possibly played executioner for the lost primarchs.
The weakest was Lorgar by a big margin. He was genetically built to be stronger than a normal man or Astartes however as he didnt view himself as a true warrior, he couldnt possibly match up to one of his brothers, as they had the natural ability combined with the mindset needed to win.
Who didn't fight back (and wasn't killed, his back was broken). Russ might be hardcore but the example doesn't help to undermine his status.
He did technically kill Magnus in the physical sense, Magnus was forced to become a daemon just to survive, to sell out willingly and completly to chaos despite previously thinking himself his master. Magnus did fight back, he didn't want to but wheb he saw Russ slaughtering his sons he felt he had to intervene.
How was Curze whiney? And emo? If anything Curze's greatest flaw was his inability to feel and emotion, he had no empathy or love for makind like Lorgar or Magnus. He felt all mankind was flawed and wretched and the only way to keep them in line was through fear. Corax wasn't exactly in the fight for his life, he was about to finish off a defeated and broken Lorgar and as soon as Curze intervened he tried to flee because he knew he would lose. It was only luck that allowed Corax to escape. Dorn may have been physically strong but at the time of the heresy he lacked the resolve to go through with killing his brothers which would have been his downfall in any straight fight, so yes Kuze could have killed him.
KorPhaeron77 wrote:He did technically kill Magnus in the physical sense, Magnus was forced to become a daemon just to survive, to sell out willingly and completly to chaos despite previously thinking himself his master. Magnus did fight back, he didn't want to but wheb he saw Russ slaughtering his sons he felt he had to intervene.
How was Curze whiney? And emo? If anything Curze's greatest flaw was his inability to feel and emotion, he had no empathy or love for makind like Lorgar or Magnus. He felt all mankind was flawed and wretched and the only way to keep them in line was through fear. Corax wasn't exactly in the fight for his life, he was about to finish off a defeated and broken Lorgar and as soon as Curze intervened he tried to flee because he knew he would lose. It was only luck that allowed Corax to escape. Dorn may have been physically strong but at the time of the heresy he lacked the resolve to go through with killing his brothers which would have been his downfall in any straight fight, so yes Kuze could have killed him.
Well, you can survive full well with a broken back. You're just bound to a chair. But sure, he needed the demonic status to actually be of more use than the Emperor on the golden throne.
Curze rocked. A little misanthropy only hurt a few minorities.
Horus cant sanction something like that dude it was the emperor
horus just twist russes perception of the emperors orders. and the emperor made ALL of his sons considerably weaker than him and slightly weaker than russ. t never says horus give the order in any book because he didnt and couldnt command the custodes or the sisters.
warmaster just means master of all marines not all military might. the IG was a se,erate command structure to.
if it werent for chaos horus would never have stood a chance against the emperor where as russ nearly beat him.
magnus was at the end of the day just a powerful psyker and have we all forgoten russes psychic reflective armour?
There is actually a piece of background (in C:V) I believe where all the Primarchs and Valdor duel Horus and only Russ and Sanguinius manage to beat him... Angron is a psycho and would be easy to manipulate and outwit in a fight, his rage would be his down fall.
the rout wrote: warmaster just means master of all marines not all military might. the IG was a se,erate command structure to.
Not at all. Warmaster meant, during the HH, master of ALL the armed forces of the IoM:
lexicanum wrote: ...raising him to the rank of Warmaster, the highest official beneath the Emperor himself, and granting him command over any and all Imperial forces.
Some imperial expeditionary fleets did have human commanders and the Imperial Army had a command structure different from the Astartes Legions, but Horus effectively controlled all the the IoM's military might.
More aptly explained, the title of "Warmaster" meant you were the Emperor's proxy. That granted every right the Emperor had when dealing with the armed forces of the Imperium.
the rout wrote:if it werent for chaos horus would never have stood a chance against the emperor where as russ nearly beat him.
Are you implying here that Russ nearly beat the Emperor? I will say that I haven't read all the fluff ever written, but I never read that nor have I ever heard mention of a fight between Russ and the Emperor that could be used as an actual example (or even one that couldn't for that matter).
the rout wrote:the emperor made ALL of his sons considerably weaker than him and slightly weaker than russ.
Never was this the Emperor's intention. The primarchs each embody one facet of the Emperor's skill/personality. This is why they are weaker; it is not because the Emperor put in safe-guards. If the Emperor's reaction to the news of Horus's betrayal is any measure (which it is) then it is more than safe to assume He never imagined them turning from Him. Therefore, he would have no reason what-so-ever to engineer them with "sub-standard" potential.
the rout wrote:Lorgar was impressive as a leader but fighting wise he was nothing to in comparison.
Are you kidding? Think back to the crusades. Thousands died fighting over lands they presumed were religiously theirs (that was the public reason anyway). Men in their droves did things they never would have done to men they had no reason to hate, all for religion. Lorgar is nothing if not a zealot. If he weren't the one to possess an inhuman rage and drive to kill then who? Angron assuredly, but Angron killed to kill. Lorgar would have smote the enemies of the Emperor with bound and pure purpose. To extinguish the lives of those whose lights did not burn for the Emperor.
Do not underestimate Lorgar. Mangus and Russ did not, and you would be a fool to assume you knew their brother better than they.
I stand by my earlier statement that Angron's blind fury would be his exploitable weakness.
Russ was a wolf given a primarch's form. He was intelligent, cunning, calculating and ruthless. But when they had to be surely every other primarch was as well. The only difference was it was Russ's very nature, and that was what made his intelligence, cunning, calculations, and ruthlessness all the more dangerous.
Magnus was closest to the Emperor. Only he truly shared the Emperor's lust for knowledge and power. It is stated in "A Thousand Sons" that they used to soar through the immaterium together for hours probing the depths of the universe in bodies of light and power. If the Emperor showed this much favor to Magnus because of his shared gift it would also be foolish to count it as less than lethal in ANY situation.
The winner of a one-on-one Primarch Battle Royal would be chosen as much by luck, environment, and circumstance as any skill the primarch's possessed. Debate all you will, but I think given the right circumstances any primarch could beat any other primarch. They were primarchs after all.
No, Lorgar really was the weakest, he said it himself. Don't get me wrong, I love the guy but I think you are confusing Primarch for legion. Lorgar was the only primarch who saw himself as a visionary not a warrior. He wanted to teach humanity about the God Emperor, not purge them. The deaths of those that died in his religious wars pained him beyond belief, which is why he broke down when the Emperor chastised him, calling him a failure. Lorgar's lack of stomach for war basically allowed Kor Phaeron and Erebus to rule the legion as they liked, when he lost faith in the Emperor they gained that extra bit of influence and manipulated him towards their own goals. Corax and Night Haunter both seem to think Lorgar is a pathetic excuse for a warrior from their dialogue with him at istvaan. So yeah in summary, body and mind Lorgar was the weakest, proven both by his own admission, and his actions. He had other qualities but compared to his brothers he didn't match up.
The winner of a one-on-one Primarch Battle Royal would be chosen as much by luck, environment, and circumstance as any skill the primarch's possessed. Debate all you will, but I think given the right circumstances any primarch could beat any other primarch. They were primarchs after all.
Wise words. While I think that certain situations heavily favor some (small room - Angron, distance - Magnus), it's pretty much impossible to say. The only thing I find truly pathetic is how the dim-witted followers of Russ and his primitive kin pimp their Primarch!
Without doubt Angron was the toughest and most brutal warrior the Imperium has ever put forward in the battle field. Even Space Marines have cowered in front of him.
Angrons past is not dissimilar to what he is now - a psychopathic killer and a trapped animal. Horus while a fine warrior was the brains behind any mission, while Angron was the fearless muscle. Hell guys, Angron even ignored and protests by the God-Emperor himself. No one could control Angron and now he is a Daemon Prince causing havok against the empire. He should have been nuked of Isstvan III
The winner of a one-on-one Primarch Battle Royal would be chosen as much by luck, environment, and circumstance as any skill the primarch's possessed. Debate all you will, but I think given the right circumstances any primarch could beat any other primarch. They were primarchs after all.
Wise words. While I think that certain situations heavily favor some (small room - Angron, distance - Magnus), it's pretty much impossible to say. The only thing I find truly pathetic is how the dim-witted followers of Russ and his primitive kin pimp their Primarch!
This is not SW fanboyism. This is just reading the fluff properly. Russ was created as a primarch killer. An executioner. He was probably some kind of uneducated barbarian compared to the other primarch, but we cannot deny his combat prowess. This is why he deserves to be in the top 5.
Remember, he was one of the few loyalists to kick the ass of a traitor primarch during the HH.
Angron has no business in the top five he was a broken minded fool who in all likelihood was lacking in the defense department as his chief concern was killing not living.
fulgrim killed ferrus manus and nearly killed gulliman but gulliman as weak as he is and with his throat all hanging out still put pretty boy down.
magnus wasnt tough even russ (supposedly the barbarian thou PB tells us otherwise) devised a way to make magnuses psyker power useless by making armour that reflected psyker energy.
curze didnt kill anyone or do anythin of merit during the HH shy of lettin an assasin kill him, he was a pointless emo bitchin about humanities flaws all the time and generally belly aching.
id much rather see dorn in the top 5 than angron and curze and thats saying something.
oh and the emperor and russ did duke it out when the emperor was recruiting russ. russ nearly took him two because the emperor wasnt a physical fighter.
and FYI horus wasnt the best in every way at all, he wasnt the smartest that was the lion, or the strongest that was angron or the best fighter that was russ. the thing he embodied about the emperor was his ambition, only horus was self assured in his own correctness to lead the crusade for as long as it took, he was simply unrelenting and above all shared the emperors vision of the IoM
and there were stronger and weaker primarchs of course there were and the custodes ONLY answered to the emperor, the question that no one seems to be asking is was the HH purposefully orchestrated by the emperor to facilitate his ascension to godhood?
i apologise for the spelling and grammar but i am using my phone as i dont have the internet.
the rout wrote:
Fulgrim killed ferrus manus and nearly killed gulliman but gulliman as weak as he is and with his throat all hanging out still put pretty boy down.
This is incorrect, Fulgrim was not defeated by Guilliman after he fatally wounded him
the lexicanum wrote:Fulgrim was now a serpentine creature of immense stature, and multi-limbed. Each limb carried a poisoned sword, and in the clash he stabbed Guilliman in the neck; Guilliman was interred in the Stasis field by the Apothecaries, and remains frozen in the instant of death, while Fulgrim escaped back to the Eye of Terror.
the rout wrote:
id much rather see dorn in the top 5 than angron and curze and thats saying something.
This doesn't say anything other than you don't like Angron and Curze... which is no reason to deny their combat prowess.
the rout wrote:
oh and the emperor and russ did duke it out when the emperor was recruiting russ. russ nearly took him two because the emperor wasnt a physical fighter.
The second "sentence" is one of the most ludicrous statements i've ever read... and THAT'S saying something
the rout wrote:the question that no one seems to be asking is was the HH purposefully orchestrated by the emperor to facilitate his ascension to godhood?
Indeed, no one is asking that question.
We get it, you like Leman Russ, too bad he failed to kill the one Primarch he was sent to kill...some executioner. Sure he broke his back and would have killed him if he hadn't ascended to Demon-Princedom... shoulda-woulda-coulda ...he didn't. Magnus is still a scourge to the galaxy.
Don't get me wrong, I love the space wolves and Leman Russ, but he is not the ultimate engine of destruction you'ld like him to be. The Space Wolves (as a whole) were designed to be the emperor's executioners... not necessarily Russ himself.
NagothDaCleaver wrote: We get it, you like Leman Russ, too bad he failed to kill the one Primarch he was sent to kill...some executioner. Sure he broke his back and would have killed him if he hadn't ascended to Demon-Princedom... shoulda-woulda-coulda ...he didn't. Magnus is still a scourge to the galaxy.
Good point, but since we are talking about a primarch fight, we can still consider the fact that Russ bested magnus in combat. I believe this achievement give him the right to be in the top 5.
NagothDaCleaver wrote: We get it, you like Leman Russ, too bad he failed to kill the one Primarch he was sent to kill...some executioner. Sure he broke his back and would have killed him if he hadn't ascended to Demon-Princedom... shoulda-woulda-coulda ...he didn't. Magnus is still a scourge to the galaxy.
Good point, but since we are talking about a primarch fight, we can still consider the fact that Russ bested magnus in combat. I believe this achievement give him the right to be in the top 5.
Who didn't really defend himself. If he did, Russ wouldn't have made it even to Prospero. So much for Russ being the ultimate Primarch. Fluff suggests, if anything, that Horus was the best primarch, closely followed by Sang, not Russ.
Good point, but since we are talking about a primarch fight, we can still consider the fact that Russ bested magnus in combat. I believe this achievement give him the right to be in the top 5.
While I'm not doubting his place in any top 5, people keep using his victory over Magnus the red as an example of how bad ass he is.
If this is your example of superior battle prowess than either you haven't read "A Thousand Sons" or you forget how that fight went.
Spoiler:
The fight between Magnus and Russ was a complete beat down on both sides, and wasn't decided until Russ blindly swung in reaction to getting hurt and luckily stabbed Magnus' eye.
A Thousand Sons wrote: A Flare of black light erupted and Russ cried out in agony. His blade lashed out blindly and struck a fateful blow against his foe's most dreaded weapon: his eye.
Ahriman cried out as he saw Magnus reel back from the Wolf King, one hand clutched to his eye as his shattered arm crackled with regenerative energies. As broken and bloodied as Leman Russ was, he was brawler enough to seize his opportunity.
At which point Russ breaks Magnus's back.
So I don't know where all of this "Russ is so amazing because of how he owned Magnus!" got going, but clearly if "A Thousand Sons" is cannon, than Magnus had Russ on the ropes just as badly and Russ got the lucky shot that let him win.
Magnus DID defend himself. He started fighting with all he had when he saw the wolves sacking his homeworld.
As for the fight between him and russ, I definitely agree it was a narrow victory and that the fight could have gone either way. But it is pretty much the same thing for other primarch duels and fights. Think about fulgrim against Ferrus. It was also a terrible fight, but we all agree that Fulgrim deserves respect for finally beheading Ferrus Manus. It is the same thing for Russ vs Magnus. The fight was terribly violent and disputed, but Russ won.
Laodamia wrote:Magnus DID defend himself. He started fighting with all he had when he saw the wolves sacking his homeworld.
As for the fight between him and russ, I definitely agree it was a narrow victory and that the fight could have gone either way. But it is pretty much the same thing for other primarch duels and fights. Think about fulgrim against Ferrus. It was also a terrible fight, but we all agree that Fulgrim deserves respect for finally beheading Ferrus Manus. It is the same thing for Russ vs Magnus. The fight was terribly violent and disputed, but Russ won.
Yes, he defended himself when he already gave up his biggest advantage more or less. If he struck while Russ was still in space, the outcome could've been very different.
Laodamia wrote:Magnus DID defend himself. He started fighting with all he had when he saw the wolves sacking his homeworld.
As for the fight between him and russ, I definitely agree it was a narrow victory and that the fight could have gone either way. But it is pretty much the same thing for other primarch duels and fights. Think about fulgrim against Ferrus. It was also a terrible fight, but we all agree that Fulgrim deserves respect for finally beheading Ferrus Manus. It is the same thing for Russ vs Magnus. The fight was terribly violent and disputed, but Russ won.
Yes, he defended himself when he already gave up his biggest advantage more or less. If he struck while Russ was still in space, the outcome could've been very different.
They probably would have still lost but the SW would have taken more casualties...
Laodamia wrote:Magnus DID defend himself. He started fighting with all he had when he saw the wolves sacking his homeworld.
As for the fight between him and russ, I definitely agree it was a narrow victory and that the fight could have gone either way. But it is pretty much the same thing for other primarch duels and fights. Think about fulgrim against Ferrus. It was also a terrible fight, but we all agree that Fulgrim deserves respect for finally beheading Ferrus Manus. It is the same thing for Russ vs Magnus. The fight was terribly violent and disputed, but Russ won.
Yes, he defended himself when he already gave up his biggest advantage more or less. If he struck while Russ was still in space, the outcome could've been very different.
They probably would have still lost but the SW would have taken more casualties...
Maybe or maybe they would've lost even worse or they would've obliterated the space wolves because they are lame. We'll never know!
Temujin wrote:Sanguinius' rage was such that he was continuously courted by Khornate daemons hoping to turn him to their side. Win or lose, he wouldn't fly away from anyone - he's fly directly towards them while suppressing the urge to scream Blood for the Blood God.
To Gwar.
Sanguinius didn't have a choice. Try and kill Horus or try and get away. He saw what Horus had become and decided to fight.
Although not covered in the original Bill King story from WD 161 later sources say that due to injuries sustained sanguinius was no match for the daemon feuled horus. So who knows how close a fight would have been if both were fit.
Sanguinius broke the back of a bloodthirster.
Horus seems to enjoy strutting around in fur....
Don't forget that this was AFTER he had broken the back of a bloodthirster on his previously broken legs/knees and during the battle for terra, which he had never stopped participating in. If he wasn't weakened after that, then there is nothing in the galaxy that can.
This discussion would probably benefit from a set of ground rules upon which to base these hypothetical combats. Different Primarchs were good at different things after all. The majority of people seem to be looking at this as one on one single combat to the death so that is the angle I will approach this from. For what it is worth I am going to disqualify Magnus right now because his potential destruction of Russ's fleet while it was is the warp, impressive as it would have been, never actually happened. When he actually had to face Russ in single combat he wasn't able to beat him. Maybe Russ was lucky to win, or maybe Magnus was lucky to last as long as he did before getting beaten. We just don't know. That said, here are my picks for top 5 Primarchs in no particular order. Please remember that the assumption here is one on one combat to the death.
Top 5
Sanguinius- He beat up the baddest of all Bloodthirsters and told Angron to shove his surrender terms where the sun doesn't shine, sure he got stomped by Horus but even the Emperor had some trouble with him.
Fulgrim- Killed Ferrus Manus in single combat, killed Guilliman in single combat, and beat an Avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands. He may be a pretty boy but, whether you like it or not, he has the most impressive record of anyone in Primarch v. Primarch combat.
Russ- He beat Magnus in combat and the other Primarch's seem to be a little intimidated by him which has to count for something.
Angron- A specialist in one on one combat and a stone cold killer. Also, please don't fool yourselves about this kind of single combat. Being bigger and stronger than the other guy counts for a lot. Why do you think boxing, MMA, and other combat sports have weight classes?
The Lion- I'm not totally sold on this one, I'll admit it up front. He doesn't seem to have any real qualifications to be on this list. On the other hand, he did go toe to toe with Russ for a whole day which earns him some respect.
If I had to pick a number one I would have to go with Fulgrim purely because of his established record of victories.
One more thing that needs addressing. This nonsense of Russ "almost" beating the Emperor is total gak in every way. When they first met Russ challenged, and beat, the Emperor in a drinking contest and an eating contest. The Emperor got annoyed at the silly contests and called Russ a drunk and a glutton. Russ got upset, stepped up to the Emperor like a man, and got hit so hard that he didn't wake up for a week. It wasn't even close. The Emperor made Russ look like a pre-pubescent. In an effort to facilitate an intelligent discussion, as intelligent as a hypothetical conversation about fictional characters can be anyway, could we please try to leave the fan boy hyperbole at the door?
andain841 wrote:Fulgrim- Killed Ferrus Manus in single combat, killed Guilliman in single combat, and beat an Avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands. He may be a pretty boy but, whether you like it or not, he has the most impressive record of anyone in Primarch v. Primarch combat.
All this he did while possessed. IMO it doesn't count.
The only fluff I know that describes one on one combat between two primarchs, that does not involve an outside influence, is the one between Russ and the Lion. And the only reason that ended with a winner, is that Russ gave up. Even Logar held his own against Corex intill Cruze intervened. IMO the only way a primarch can kill another primarch is with a thrid party. The fluff supports that.
Why is thinking the emperor purposefully planned the HH so far fetched?
he was a very powerful psyker and could see the future and the world very different than even the primarchs.
Lots of things suggest it was on purpose such as lots of the events that caused the HH happening when the traitors travelled back in time. the emperor even sees traitor horus in the past.
the emperor is now a full on god in 40k and i for one honestly believe he planned the HH to make himself a god so he could have a better chance of saving humanity.
the rout wrote:Why is thinking the emperor purposefully planned the HH so far fetched?
he was a very powerful psyker and could see the future and the world very different than even the primarchs.
Lots of things suggest it was on purpose such as lots of the events that caused the HH happening when the traitors travelled back in time. the emperor even sees traitor horus in the past.
the emperor is now a full on god in 40k and i for one honestly believe he planned the HH to make himself a god so he could have a better chance of saving humanity.
No one is talking about this, because this is a thread about Primarch Vs Primarch
NagothDaCleaver wrote: We get it, you like Leman Russ, too bad he failed to kill the one Primarch he was sent to kill...some executioner. Sure he broke his back and would have killed him if he hadn't ascended to Demon-Princedom... shoulda-woulda-coulda ...he didn't. Magnus is still a scourge to the galaxy.
Good point, but since we are talking about a primarch fight, we can still consider the fact that Russ bested magnus in combat. I believe this achievement give him the right to be in the top 5.
but remember Magnus the Red felt he deserved what the wolves were doing to his legion, methinks he didn't try against russ
NagothDaCleaver wrote: We get it, you like Leman Russ, too bad he failed to kill the one Primarch he was sent to kill...some executioner. Sure he broke his back and would have killed him if he hadn't ascended to Demon-Princedom... shoulda-woulda-coulda ...he didn't. Magnus is still a scourge to the galaxy.
Good point, but since we are talking about a primarch fight, we can still consider the fact that Russ bested magnus in combat. I believe this achievement give him the right to be in the top 5.
but remember Magnus the Red felt he deserved what the wolves were doing to his legion, methinks he didn't try against russ
Maybe, I'm still not sure about his point.
The fluff tends to say that magnus did fight his brother with all he had, since the description of the duel in Thousand Sons is pretty violent. But it is true that at first, he felt he deserved what happened to his homeworld. Therefore, saying that he still lacked a bit of motivation during the fight is possible. There's probably no answer to this question...
i am a big fan of russ it is true and it wasnt hyperbole reffering to his challenge to the emperor i read he "he nearly defeted the emperor when he challenged him" somewhere. russ though at the end of the day is still a primarch killer. fulgrim did kill primarchs but only the ones who werent and arent considered the big fighters.
sanguinius is impressive but he does get completely and totally owned. he doesnt even draw any oh so tasty blood which says alot about his prowsess regardless of him being tired, other primarchs could have found the energy from somewhere, russ fights his way across all of tizca and still finds the energy to fight a well rested magnus.
angron never does any primarch fighting and his being a gladiator fighting lesser oponents isnt impressive whatsoever, the lion fought the beasts of caliban for crying out loud.
and im so glad the curze lovers have hushed he makes less sense than angron and fulgrim IMO.
and the SW are not lame, has anybody read legion more than once btw? lol hard work.
I think the rout was not referring to the actual achievements of russ, but rather at his reputation, or what he was created for. According to the fluff, he was supposed to fell down renegade primarchs, which is why some of us refer to him as primarch killer. However, it is true that he did not really prove anything during the HH.
Well, I don't think anyone would have any better footing than another to point out 'just one' Primarch. However, I think you could make a top 4/5 and say 'One of these guys, depending on the author/book'. I think we also have to quantify 'Before they turned to Chaos" as a Chaos infused Primarch, such as Fulgrim, is obviously a bit better than his formal self. So...
Sang: He killed the Lord of BloodThirsters after fighting in the Siege of Terra. Other Primarchs noted his nobility/martial ability and even Horus state he was most like their father (My personal favorite). Precognition also tends to help in a fight....
Angron: Corax noted in a BL novel that Angron would likely kill him. He stated only Sang. or Russ would be able to stand up to him.
Russ: Can psychic scream, armor deflects psychic energy and already has been proven to kill one Primarch. Noted as 'being born for the assassin' role.
My pick is Sang.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NagothDaCleaver wrote:
M'Shen is even a Primarch killer
To be fair, Night Haunter let her kill him. A normal Night Lord (Well, kind of normal) was able to kill her.
the rout wrote:
sanguinius is impressive but he does get completely and totally owned. he doesnt even draw any oh so tasty blood which says alot about his prowsess regardless of him being tired, other primarchs could have found the energy from somewhere, russ fights his way across all of tizca and still finds the energy to fight a well rested magnus.
actually, Sanguinius tore out Horus's throat while impaled on his lightning claw
the rout wrote:
sanguinius is impressive but he does get completely and totally owned. he doesnt even draw any oh so tasty blood which says alot about his prowsess regardless of him being tired, other primarchs could have found the energy from somewhere, russ fights his way across all of tizca and still finds the energy to fight a well rested magnus.
actually, Sanguinius tore out Horus's throat while impaled on his lightning claw
I read that Sanguinius was only able to take a tiny chunk out Horus' armor but that tiny hole was enough for the Emperor to exploit. Else, the Emperor's psychic blast might've not reached Horus. So yeah, Sanguinius made sure that mankind prevailed. There's a reason why they have a celebration day in his name and not because he was a wuss.
purplefood wrote:What the hell was Horus's armour made of?
Good question. I don't think it was ever addressed in the fluff. In the few artworks showing Horus, he seems to be encased in a heavily ornate termy suit. Maybe this suit was a gift of the Ruinous Powers and that it was made of a daemonic metal? For instance, the fists of Ultramar were once Chaos artifacts and in 10 000 years, the ultra's artificers have not even been able to analyse their composition because they can't even cut a tiny fragment out of the gloves. I guess Horus' armor is similar.
the rout wrote:
sanguinius is impressive but he does get completely and totally owned. he doesnt even draw any oh so tasty blood which says alot about his prowsess regardless of him being tired, other primarchs could have found the energy from somewhere, russ fights his way across all of tizca and still finds the energy to fight a well rested magnus.
actually, Sanguinius tore out Horus's throat while impaled on his lightning claw
Ah the old fluff version
The Death of Sanguinus
As he flew he spotted a damaged link of armour on the Warmaster's neck, and
Sanguinius stabbed out with all his remaining strength. His blade lodged at once in the Warmaster's armour.
Horus screamed more with anger than with pain, and reached out to strike the winged Primarch. Steel talons
dripping with plasmic energy closed upon the winged Angel of Baal.
According to some versions of the tale it was this wound that Sanguinius struck which opened a chink
through the armour of Horus, enabling the Emperor to slay his enemy.
2nd edition Wargear
I guess it's not be updated so is still the current version of what happened.
It was the audio book Raven's Flight, definitely worth a listen....Gav writes pretty good audio.
The only thing that kept Russ from finishing Magnus was his deal with Tzeentch. Magnus was finished though (Which he knew would happen...it was meant to show his last heroic sacrifice for his sons).
You can't list M'Shen in the same breath as Russ or the others...because they actually fought Primarch v. Primarch with each bent on destroying the other. Night Haunter didn't fight, it was suicide for vindication essentially (He even states as much).
As for everything else, i was only speaking in facts, not intentions. Primarchs Russ killed = 0, Primarchs M'Shen Killed = 1
But I digress... I'll give up on any further attempts to state this fact, that's not entirely what this thread is about.
My Top 5 would be
1. Angron
2. Leman Russ
3. Magnus the Red
4. Sangunius
5. Fulgrim
Honerable Mention are Lion EL' Johnson, Corax, Night Haunter, and Vulkan
This is not in ANY way my list of favorites, because Leman Russ would be number one, this my list of top five badasses in a one on one fight.
While Magnus is no physical badass, he would psychically burn to cinders most Primarchs who stepped to him.
While Magnus is no physical badass, he would psychically burn to cinders most Primarchs who stepped to him.
I'm not sure that I agree with this statement. We don't really have any evidence that Magnus' psychic abilities were that useful in a Primarch v. Primarch situation. It's possible, though by no means certain, that he could have destroyed Russ' fleet while it was in the warp. However, when it came down to a straight up fight he wasn't able to simply burn Russ to ash (awesome though that would have been). Of course you could argue that Russ had some sort of anti-psychic armor but it seems reasonable to me that if Russ has anti-psychic wards than so might other Primarchs.
Has anyone considered the Khan as a potential heavyweight in this hypothetical competition? I left him out of my top five but I've been thinking about it and it seems like he has some potential. I'm still pulling for Fulgrim as #1 overall but I can accept the argument put forward that a possessed Primarch doesn't count. I will say that I'm not certain that Fulgrim's possession made him any more powerful though, at least not at first. When he ascended to deamonhood then sure but before that I don't know.
NagothDaCleaver wrote:Audio Book?!?!
Gav Thorpe!?!?!
2 strikes against it... But I'll give it a shot
As for everything else, i was only speaking in facts, not intentions. Primarchs Russ killed = 0, Primarchs M'Shen Killed = 1
But I digress... I'll give up on any further attempts to state this fact, that's not entirely what this thread is about.
My Top 5 would be
1. Angron
2. Leman Russ Lion El'Jonson
3. Magnus the Red
4. Sangunius
5. Fulgrim
Honerable Mention are Corax, Night Haunter, and Vulkan
This is not in ANY way my list of favorites, because Leman Russ would be number one, this my list of top five badasses in a one on one fight.
While Magnus is no physical badass, he would psychically burn to cinders most Primarchs who stepped to him.
Fixed that for you
It is emphatically stated in the fluff, Lion El'jonson IS Russ's Eqaul, you dont have to like it, call it fanboyism all you like, still a fact
andain841 wrote: Of course you could argue that Russ had some sort of anti-psychic armor but it seems reasonable to me that if Russ has anti-psychic wards than so might other Primarchs.
Yes, Russ did have anti psychic armor. And I've never read about any other Primarch that did.
Of course it could have been in something i've never read.
While Magnus is no physical badass, he would psychically burn to cinders most Primarchs who stepped to him.
I'm not sure that I agree with this statement. We don't really have any evidence that Magnus' psychic abilities were that useful in a Primarch v. Primarch situation. It's possible, though by no means certain, that he could have destroyed Russ' fleet while it was in the warp. However, when it came down to a straight up fight he wasn't able to simply burn Russ to ash (awesome though that would have been). Of course you could argue that Russ had some sort of anti-psychic armor but it seems reasonable to me that if Russ has anti-psychic wards than so might other Primarchs.
Has anyone considered the Khan as a potential heavyweight in this hypothetical competition? I left him out of my top five but I've been thinking about it and it seems like he has some potential. I'm still pulling for Fulgrim as #1 overall but I can accept the argument put forward that a possessed Primarch doesn't count. I will say that I'm not certain that Fulgrim's possession made him any more powerful though, at least not at first. When he ascended to deamonhood then sure but before that I don't know.
He killed Ferrus Manus while he was still a primarch and not completely possessed.
If I recall correctly, Fulgrim was not actually possessed until after Ferrus was slain. He was only influenced. Afterward, his grief consumed him to the point that he freely accepted oblivion. Of course, afterward, he realizes how big of a mistake it was to give himself up to Chaos.
That's what I thought but its been a while since I read "Fulgrim" so I thought I was misremembering. In that case I stick by my previous assertion that Fulgrim should get the top spot based on his demonstrated victories. Besides, how much of a boost in power did his possession really give him anyway? Are we certain that it made him significantly more powerful? It obviously did when he became a demon, but what about before that?
I would theorize that Russ had his anti psyker armor/talisman whathaveyou because he was the one tasked with taking down the two lost primarchs, at least one of which was seemingly delving into the sorcerous arts. While not fully explored in canon yet, it seems likely that he did kill at least one of the lost primarchs otherwise I doubt he and his wolves would be widely known as the Emperor's executioners.
You can tell that Magnus isn't a great physical fighter even after his ascension because one of the SW Chapter Masters beat him up pretty badly before Magnus turned him to stone and left his soul wondering about... though Magnus probably doesn't care and believes that anyone specialising in hand-to-hand is an idiot so go figure.
Just an assist on Magnus and his possible physical strength
From Index Astartes: Space Wolves
Magnus the Red was a giant of a man, standing far taller than even his brother Primarchs, his hair and complexion a livid red. Most remarkable of all was the enormous cyclopean eye set deep into the Primarch's forehead; where normal men have two eyes, Magnus had one. His strength was lauded as rivalling that of Russ, but he preferred to expend his energies learning and pursuing ancient arcana than the art of battle.
I'm searching for stuff on The Lion and Russ at Dulan but finding it a difficult search. What I have so far
The Space Wolves found their flank unprotected, and many warriors were slain when the enemy counter-attacked. More galling to the prideful Leman Russ was the fact that the Dark Angels swept all before them and easily won the battle. After the conflict, hot-tempered and fearless, Russ stormed after El'Johnson and launched into the Dark Angels Primarch, fists flying and curses upon his lips. - Space Wolves Codex 4th Edition Page 91
The two titanic warriors battled for a day and a night, each unable to overcome the other." - Space Wolves Codex 4th Edition Page 91
At last the pair broke apart, and Russ, seeing the humour in the situation, began to laugh- quietly at first, but soon with a fulsome roar of mirth. The Dark Angels Primarch looked upon Russ with disgust. He saw the Fenrisian King's blow as treacherous, so he raised his fist and dealt the laughing Russ with such a blow that he was rendered unconscious. Considering his honour to be satisfied, El'Johnson left the fortress and set off into space. - Space Wolves Codex 4th Edition Page 91
There is also the other old piece of fluff wherein the Lion blames Russ for their late arrival to Terra and the Emperor's crippling.
Russ, heartbroken, bears his chest and invites the Lion to strike him down. El'Jonson obliges him, but turns the blow at the last moment, realizing what he's doing. He remains by his bedside until he heals, and then reaffirms their vows of friendship and brotherhood. But I can't find this part - I guess this doesn't count though as Russ invited The Lion to slay him
B&C actually has a good run down - The Wolf and The Lion have battled a number of times
Sorry about posting late but after reading afew books and learning more about our Beloved primarch I felt I needed to put a comment here, sorry for any disruption.
To be honest if we look at this properly ther are a few contenders for this one.
If we are talking about Brute Strength then the title would go to either Ferrus Mannus or Vulcan this is purely down to where they were found and theyre bringing up and lifestyle before the emperor found them. Nocturne it'self having a massive effect on Strength and speed due to gravity.
I belive in one of the short stories from 'Age of Darkness'. It says that the title of the strongest primarch would be closely contested between Ferrus Mannus or Vulcan, but as Ferrus Mannus head lay in the snow there was no doubt as to outcome of that dispute now.
If we are talking about 'Martial Prowess' then that is a different kettle of fish and is down to opinions, but in my own opinion and trying not to be biased (I am a Space Wolves Fan), I belive that the Primarch's with most Physical Combat Ability (NOT PSYKER ABILITIES, cos thats cheating remember) are:
Please bear in mind this is only an opinion based on Physical Combat Ability (If You had to put one in the Ring against the other with no
Psyker abilities) If you had to include Psyker abilities then my opinion would change aswell as the above list.
I don't see why Magnus is in spot 14 there. Without psychic powers, he wouldn't be as strong, but he still got his hand around Russ's heart in their fight, and that was while battling wolves and Space Wolves as well.
It's results that count, so the winner is Fulgrim, with two kills to Horus' and Guilliman's one apiece, and nil for the rest of them.
Edit: it's arguable that Guilliman's kill only counts as a half. Also, if - as is unconfirmed but commonly supposed - Leman Russ really did kill off 'the Forgotten and the Purged' then he ties with Fulgrim for the top spot.
Old cheater.
Don't start using the "big words". 
It is just a novel written to highlight the qualities of a certain W40K faction. 
