we've had a mini discussion in another thread so i've decided to stop derailing that one and simply make a new thread/poll with the question:

do the current line of sister of battle miniatures VISUALLY look like they have a 3+ armor save? (obviously they have full power armor according to the fluff)

What it looks like is irrelevant. Sisters wear power armor. It's not supposed to be textured like leather (and indeed, I paint it as metal).

I agree it needs to be redesigned, but it's still power armor regardless-- and the fluff agrees. C:WH specifically says that it provides the same protection Astartes power armor does.



This is power armor.

this line up of different 40k imperial troopers show's my opinion. the fluff doesn't say that the SOB armor is any more advanced than a marine's mk8 armor yet is supposed to provide the same protection as the noticeably heavier and bulkier marine's armor. while i agree that the fluff says they have full 3+ power armor, the models don't in my opinion. gw chose sexy over protection in the case of SOB when they didn't have to. it's entirely possible to have believable 3+ armor and still be sexy.

[delete]

Melissia wrote:What it looks like is irrelevant. Sisters wear power armor.

half right, half wrong. yes, they do wear power armor BUT what it looks like is relevant. this is a visual medium and a large portion of the 40k player base likes to see well sculpted painted models that accurately depict the fluff.

And we have it. See the picture I posted. GW's crappy artists are kinda irrelevant, the picture you posted odes not look like the models I have.

If you don't like the pic I posted, try this, directly out of C:SoB.



That definitely looks like power armor.

Melissia wrote:And we have it. See the picture I posted. GW's crappy artists are kinda irrelevant, the picture you posted odes not look like the models I have.

If you don't like the pic I posted, try this, directly out of C:SoB.

That definitely looks like power armor.

that's your opinion and mine differs. to me, that looks like 4+. it may be powered and fully environmental/zero-g vacuum rated but doesn't offer the protection necessary to be 3+ VISUALLY. the pic you posted earlier with the metal armor with rivets might warrant it (as does the pic below) but the current model range doesn't in my opinion. power armor doesn't HAVE to be 3+; there are plenty of fluff benefits to having that type of armor over just simple plates like kasrkin have. form fitting paper thin sexy armor =/= 3+. when and IF gw gets around to updating the 2nd edition SOB models, i hope that they bulk them up. I WANT them to have 3+ armor and am not trying to start some online petition to have it changed to 4+; i simply think they don't currently have it modelled.

"...The less it covers, the higher AC you get..."

Anyway, I voted a 4+, after that side by side comparison.

... and since the models are from second edition, you should use the pictures from that codex.

For that matter, why not look at the models?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat30048&prodId=prod1080208

Notice it's all painted as metal, not leathery corset.

I think it should be modelled a little better. I don't need them to have skin tight armor. A little bulkier like the Samus picture above or the picture that picture warboss posted works for me.

You must also remember that the Marine underneath the armor in that comparison is a physical freak with massive bulging muscles.

lol, i could paint a catachan's tshirt as metal but that doesn't mean he actually deserves a 5+ either. i'm quite familiar with the SOB range of models and the armor doesn't look like 3+ to me on that fig. this thread is about opinions, not facts. the fact is that SOB have 3+ power armor; the opinion and purpose of the poll is whether or not GW did a good job showing that.

I never understood how these get a 4+ save:





When these are wearing full armor..




And how can sisters get a 3+ when crisis suits are fully enclosed and actually impact the model's statistics and only provide a 3+?
Oh I get it. It's protective enough to give increased strength and toughness and fly but not enough to give a nicer save....yeah, that makes complete sense.

broken links?

Sisters armor is also fully enclosed, as well?

Melissia wrote:Sisters armor is also fully enclosed, as well?

What? The leather masks protect them from the vacuum of space?

Seriously. How can a sister have the same protection as a crisis suit?

The answer is that rules trump looks and if they had a 4+, or worse, even fewer people would be playing SoB.

Sisters don't look like 3+ I'd have to say. But that does not mean they shouldn't be. Sisters as 4+ would essentially be zealous female Stormtroopers with bolters. However, there is also styling to consider. If you buffed up Sisters to look like 3+, they'd be Space Marines with breasts, which wouldn't be that interesting.

You've got to remember that Space marine armor is bulky because space marines themselves are bulky. Power armor used by normal humans is much smaller compared to the walking refrigerators

agnosto wrote:The leather masks

These look more like proper helmets than Space Marine helmets do.

Source, by the way, is C:WH.

Skinnattittar wrote:If you buffed up Sisters to look like 3+, they'd be Space Marines with breasts, which wouldn't be that interesting.

i dunno. the samus pic i posted is still pretty hot and the marines below aren't bad either. SOB were sculpted the way they are specifically to look sexy; GW can keep that yet give them believable armor. while i'd prefer the functional samus look, i'd be ok with the "look at me, i'm sexy!" female space marine look also to a lesser extent.

Melissia wrote:

agnosto wrote:The leather masks

These look more like proper helmets than Space Marine helmets do.

I don't see the giant sword wielding S&M freaks wearing those.

Repentia aren't Sisters.

They also do not wear power armor.

warboss wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:If you buffed up Sisters to look like 3+, they'd be Space Marines with breasts, which wouldn't be that interesting.

i dunno. the samus pic i posted is still pretty hot and the marines below aren't bad either. SOB were sculpted the way they are specifically to look sexy; GW can keep that yet give them believable armor. while i'd prefer the functional samus look, i'd be ok with the "look at me, i'm sexy!" female space marine look also to a lesser extent.

Neither of these pictures look like 3+ armor though.... they look like cosplay 5+ armor. Stormtroopers are more heavily armored looking!

warboss wrote:

Damn, if the sisters all looked like that I'd play them.

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

They also do not wear power armor.

Same codex. Besides, they get a 4+ but wear less armor than an Ork....or even a Kroot.

Besides. A crisis suit is basically a dreadnought but only has a 3+ while a sister (and even if the codex has pictures of helmets, I've never seen a model with one) has a 3+.

Like I said. Nobody would play sisters if they all had a 4+ or worse so there's no point in comparing things based completely on looks of the model.

Half the models of Sisters have helmets. Just because a player decides not to use them doesn't mean anything. Marines have fewer helmets than Sisters.

Furthermore, repentia suck, and nobody uses them. Repentia are just about the worst unit in the game, if not the defacto worst unit.

Melissia wrote:
Furthermore, repentia suck, and nobody uses them. Repentia are just about the worst unit in the game, if not the defacto worst unit.

Really? Must I remind you of this extremely high pile of steaming excrement?



I wish I could edit that photo and put, "I suck!" under the model.

agnosto wrote:

Melissia wrote:
Furthermore, repentia suck, and nobody uses them. Repentia are just about the worst unit in the game, if not the defacto worst unit.

Really? Must I remind you of this extremely high pile of steaming excement?

I wish I could edit that photo and put, "I suck!" under the model.

that made me laugh. yeah, i think the ethereal takes the cake in that discussion but let's keep on track, shall we?

No, I'm fairly certain Repentia are worse.

I think it looks like they would get a 4+ save. The armor looks just a tad lighter than marine armor plus the fact that sisters are not gene enhanced killing machines with bodies able to take as much punishment as an astartes. And while we are on the subject of armor saves whats up with IG vets. getting 4+ saves? Are they like the equivalent scouts in an SM army?

While this isn't a debate with a right or wrong answer, I have a really tough time understanding how anyone can think the SoB armor, which is very obviously much smaller than a tactical marines, confers the same bonuses. The SM look like they're slogging along in a dumpster. Now, the only thing I can think of justify this in a fluff sense is that the SM armor provides more in terms of extra goodies. Like I was reading in Thousand Sons how the armor recycles their moisture and another book had some self-repair stuff and whatnot. So I can pretend you take all that out and they are the same size, the tactical SM armor just has more optional features like cruise control and heated seats.

Oh, I guess there are a few other ideas. All that extra flair is just looks on the SM armor and the actual power armor is all the same size. Another option is they added a ton of extra metal so they get a work out while walking around so they don't get Astartes fat.

The only reason people have an issue w/ Sisters having a 3+ save is they feel it threatens their precious pansy marines in some fashion. Honestly, if you want to discuss the armor values of models then also discuss why SM models are the same height as IG despite the fluff saying they are 7-8' tall superhumans. What a useless discussion.

Rymafyr wrote:The only reason people have an issue w/ Sisters having a 3+ save is they feel it threatens their precious pansy marines in some fashion. Honestly, if you want to discuss the armor values of models then also discuss why SM models are the same height as IG despite the fluff saying they are 7-8' tall superhumans. What a useless discussion.

It's the armor that makes them lose 1-2 feet. You know, how a camera can add on 10 pounds...

Anywho, I'm in the camp with them looking like 4+ but being 3+ because there'd be no point in playing them if they were 4+.

Will GW make them 4+? Yes, they will; just as soon as I tell them they can sell more models by doing it that way for the next codex...

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:I think it looks like they would get a 4+ save. The armor looks just a tad lighter than marine armor plus the fact that sisters are not gene enhanced killing machines with bodies able to take as much punishment as an astartes. And while we are on the subject of armor saves whats up with IG vets. getting 4+ saves? Are they like the equivalent scouts in an SM army?

The Carapace armor you can upgrade vets with is the same thing that Scouts wear.

Hey my big carnifex only gets a 3 plus. I think the armor would work by deflecting hits rather than absorbing them. Or maybe they disperse energy in some way. Or maybe it's just awesome dark age tech. Or maybe they are crazy church folk that can change every rule in the book using faith

Rymafyr wrote:The only reason people have an issue w/ Sisters having a 3+ save is they feel it threatens their precious pansy marines in some fashion. Honestly, if you want to discuss the armor values of models then also discuss why SM models are the same height as IG despite the fluff saying they are 7-8' tall superhumans. What a useless discussion.

feel free to ignore the discussion instead of posting useless messages in it. also, defending one modelling inadequacy/error with another doesn't help either. i'd prefer that marines were modelled true scale also but that's not the purpose of this thread; we're discussing true armor nuns.

Rymafyr wrote:why SM models are the same height as IG despite the fluff saying they are 7-8' tall superhumans

Yeah, but that would make them bigger and the models would cost more.

When I first saw Warhammer, some decades ago, I just didn't get it. I was like, okay, this is the year 40k. They got tanks and laser guns and can blast stuff from space. Then why the hell is everyone running around with chainsaws and no helmets? It made no sense to me as a kid so I didn't play it. Then someone wise once told me, it's best not to think about the logic of Warhammer too much. Once you realize it's a whole big pile of suspend your disbelief in order to make stuff look cool, you're fine.

They're 3+ save because that's what the game designers felt the army needed.
They got flimsy-pretty armor because that's what the sculptor thought looked cool and would sell.

There suits don't seem to cover that much, but I put 4+ just because it looks hard enough.

Erm, what? They cover the entire body...

Melissia wrote:Erm, what? They cover the entire body...

It just looks imcompte to be 3+.

I think part of the problem is getting Armor confused with Toughness and Strength, which GW doesn't always make clear either. But I think the justification goes like this.

Marines are physically huge, muscley, and hard to hurt. This is reflected in their Toughness and Strength. But Armor isn't about how tough you are. If you can shrug off a bullet wound you're tough. If your armor can stop that bullet wound, you have a good armor save. At least, this is how GW describes these stats. But in the fluff, Marine's Armor also enhances their Strength and Toughness, which is why it's so big and bulky. I think it muddies the water quite a bit when you try to figure out how power armor enhances stats in the game world, though. Does their physiology get them to about T3.5 and the armor gets it over the hill to T4? I'm not a fluff expert, so I don't know.

Sisters are not genetically engineered marines, and so they don't have increased Toughness and Strength, and are regular person size. Their version of power armor doesn't seem to do much to enhance their Toughness or Strength, at least not enough to raise it from 3 to 4. Maybe if they did half-stats they'd be 3.5. Who knows. The "power" part of the "power armor" seems definitely much diminished compared to marines though. The "armor" part of the "power armor" is supposedly just as good as the marines get. So the question is assuming we accept that they CAN make armor that is just as good as marine armor but without a lot of the "power," does the Sisters' armor look like it's the same armor-wise but not S- or T-wise?

I think it does, because I assume that most of the space inside a marine's power armor is taken up by secondary systems (air, strength, etc) and the marine himself, and the armor is actually a small layer on top.

frameshift wrote:I think part of the problem is getting Armor confused with Toughness and Strength, which GW doesn't always make clear either. But I think the justification goes like this.

Marines are physically huge, muscley, and hard to hurt. This is reflected in their Toughness and Strength. But Armor isn't about how tough you are. If you can shrug off a bullet wound you're tough. If your armor can stop that bullet wound, you have a good armor save. At least, this is how GW describes these stats. But in the fluff, Marine's Armor also enhances their Strength and Toughness, which is why it's so big and bulky. I think it muddies the water quite a bit when you try to figure out how power armor enhances stats in the game world, though. Does their physiology get them to about T3.5 and the armor gets it over the hill to T4? I'm not a fluff expert, so I don't know.

Sisters are not genetically engineered marines, and so they don't have increased Toughness and Strength, and are regular person size. Their version of power armor doesn't seem to do much to enhance their Toughness or Strength, at least not enough to raise it from 3 to 4. Maybe if they did half-stats they'd be 3.5. Who knows. The "power" part of the "power armor" seems definitely much diminished compared to marines though. The "armor" part of the "power armor" is supposedly just as good as the marines get. So the question is assuming we accept that they CAN make armor that is just as good as marine armor but without a lot of the "power," does the Sisters' armor look like it's the same armor-wise but not S- or T-wise?

I think it does, because I assume that most of the space inside a marine's power armor is taken up by secondary systems (air, strength, etc) and the marine himself, and the armor is actually a small layer on top.

This, I Always thought that marines looked bulkier because of the genetic enhancement they got make it necessary to bulk out their Armour so they could actual fit inside it. While sisters, being your ordinary or garden variety humans wouldn't need such modifications to their equipment.

Another example of this would be their bolters, marines and Sisters use different variants of the weapons, because the marines bolter has to be scale up to him so he can wield it effectively, he'd probably get his finger stuck in the sister's and the sisters wouldn't be able carry his.

It's simply the re-sizing of equipment to fit the user.

EDIT: Fixed my spelling.

On page 19 of the Witch Hunters codex, it talks about the Sister's armour. Basically while it provides the same level of protection, it lacks many of the life support systems and strength enhancing systems that are found in the marine armour. To me this explains helps the smaller figure of the sisters, besides the fact that mariners are 7 foot tall supermen.

It lacks many of the systems, but not all of them. If it lacked all of them, Sisters would hardly be able to move at all. Power armor, even light power armor (IE, civilian models) are friggin' heavy.

I'm in the camp that the majority of the SM's bulk is the Marine. Power Armor is still fully functional at much smaller scale so the SoB's should get 3+. Honestly I would support GW if they tried to make them a little more sexy, a 3+ save with an exposed mid-section? Yes please!

On this note why aren't any of the 'Space Nuns' who go around the galaxy punishing the 'Bad Boys' of the universe carrying a whip? Or even handcuffs? You would think they would arrest at least one person :p.

Why couldn't the sisters always be using a little faith too boost their save up beyond what it would normally be. Combine that with them taking a more defensive fighting stance and it all works.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:On this note why aren't any of the 'Space Nuns' who go around the galaxy punishing the 'Bad Boys' of the universe carrying a whip? :p.

ahem... *look below* first on the left...

I think the sculpts accurately convey a 3+ save... but just barely. I do hope that when (or if) Games Workshop creates new sculpts, they try to make them look a bit more imposing physically. Because, frankly, I can understand why many people feel that the appearance may not warrant a 3+ save. They need to drop the whole "sexy" angle with their female models. "Sexy" is fine in its place, but we're dealing with a game about grim, desperate battles, so overtly sexy sculpts feel oddly out of place. To be fair, the actual Battle Sisters figs aren't so bad in that regard, but the Sisters Repentia, Death Cult Assassins, and the female Inquisitors look more like they're trying to be desirable than trying to kill the enemies of the Imperium. And I find that kind of sad.

I'm sure GW is does this because the player base consists primarily of males and they think that guys want eye candy rather than formidable looking female warriors. But I'm not sure I agree. It's my understanding that Sisters of Battle never exactly set the 40k world on fire. They've always been one of those fringe armies really. If guys wanted a bunch of hotties with guns, surely the SoB army would be much more prominent. Or potentially so, at least.

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

Repentia ARE Sororitas, please check the Codex.

Repentia do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. They are outcasts. Usually having outcast themselves mind you, but outcasts nonetheless.

Their armor is unnecessarily sexualised, but it's still better than Space Marine power armor. At least the Sororitas have gothic armor that fits the Imperium's theme, Astartes armor is too smooth and cartoony.

I rate Space Marine's should get a 4+ armor save, 'cause their armor doesn't look like it couldn't withstand even a single box of Acme dynamite. Sororitas is definitely 3+, if only because it doesn't look like it could be made out of paper-mache as a primary school project.

Does this really look like a 3+ armour save?

or this?

or this?

See my point.

They have +3 because THEY HAVE FAITH IN DA EMPRAH

Norade wrote:Why couldn't the sisters always be using a little faith too boost their save up beyond what it would normally be. Combine that with them taking a more defensive fighting stance and it all works.

Because by this logic SM would all have 2+ saves. lol

Necrosis wrote:Does this really look like a 3+ armour save?

Yes?

Necrosis wrote:or this?

Yes!

Necrosis wrote:or this?

Certainly, I wouldn't even point a gun at him to begin with!

Necrosis wrote:See my point.

Not really? The first two examples are Eldar, who have superior technology to the Imperium. Their armor doesn't need to be as bulky, it's made of tougher stuff.

The third example is Straken, and his save doesn't represent that he wears lots of armor. It represents that he's made mostly of metal.

guardpiper wrote:On page 19 of the Witch Hunters codex, it talks about the Sister's armour. Basically while it provides the same level of protection, it lacks many of the life support systems and strength enhancing systems that are found in the marine armour.

Hey, that's what I said.

GW uses the terms Toughness and Armor close to interchangeably. The one word that strikes me as different is Toughness = resist and Armor = Avoid.

In other news, I think this thread will go on until Melissia convinces people that they should believe it looks 3+. Just like convincing people that blue should be their favorite color also works. So I think sisters should have no armor value at all, because it's made of cardboard. So the models should be painted cardboard-brown and include packing slips. They only gave them a 3+ save because of affirmative action.

Alright then do Honor Guard look like they should get the same save as a guy in Terminator Amour?

Those guys look like their wearing normal power armour yet have the same save as a guy in Terminator Armour/Marneus Calgar.

Necrosis wrote:Alright then do Honor Guard look like they should get the same save as a guy in Terminator Amour? Those guys look like their wearing normal power armour yet have the same save as a guy in Terminator Armour/Marneus Calgar.

they don't. they lack the 5+ invul so your example is moot. once again, using ANOTHER less than optimal modelling example doesn't excuse the first one.

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

GW Website wrote:Sisters Repentia

Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, those who fall short of the rigorous codes may find themselves banded into groups and led into battle in an attempt to earn redemption.

This set contains 3 metal Sisters Repentia.

Unit Composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sisters Repentia.

In the German Codex:

Unit Composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sororitas.
Weapons: (...) Each Sororita is armed with a ceremonical eviscerator.

The short fluff text explains that Repentia is a way to repent within the organisation in contrast to complete outcasts.

warboss wrote:

they don't. they lack the 5+ invul so your example is moot. once again, using ANOTHER less than optimal modelling example doesn't excuse the first one.

the 5+ invu save comes from the Trux Terminas on their shoulder plate. Thus my point is not mute.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

GW Website wrote:Sisters Repentia

Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, those who fall short of the rigorous codes may find themselves banded into groups and led into battle in an attempt to earn redemption.

This set contains 3 metal Sisters Repentia.

Unit Composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sisters Repentia.

In the German Codex:

Unit Composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sororitas.
Weapons: (...) Each Sororita is armed with a ceremonical eviscerator.

4+ save is suppose to represent that they don't really feel pain. Thus this 4+ save will probably be replace by feel no pain in the next codex.

Actually, I think the Crux Terminus is part of Terminator armor and as far as I can tell the honor guard are not wearing terminator armor. The only reason the get the 2+ save is because their armor is artificer armor there is no 5+ invulnerable.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Actually, I think the Crux Terminus is part of Terminator armor and as far as I can tell the honor guard are not wearing terminator armor. The only reason the get the 2+ save is because their armor is artificer armor there is no 5+ invulnerable.

Crus is on the shoulder as it says in the space marine codex.

Necrosis wrote:

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:

Actually, I think the Crux Terminus is part of Terminator armor and as far as I can tell the honor guard are not wearing terminator armor. The only reason the get the 2+ save is because their armor is artificer armor there is no 5+ invulnerable.

Crus is on the shoulder as it says in the space marine codex.

Hmmm, crazy i just looked and I didn't see it on any of the figs.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:
Hmmm, crazy i just looked and I didn't see it on any of the figs.

Well its on page 102 of the space marine codex.

Kroothawk wrote:[snip]

A bad translation in the German codex does not make for fluff. The fact remains that the Repentia do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Furthermore, here's something straight out of C:WH about the Repentia:

These sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle

Chiming in on behalf of the sisters.

was it stated that the sisters armor is smaller because it doesn't incorporate all the additional benefits that the Astrates armor does. such as the strength enhancement etc.

but I do agree, this armour they currently have is more of a Carapace with full hazardous protection. its need to look a tad bit more like armour

Necrosis wrote:the 5+ invu save comes from the Trux Terminas on their shoulder plate. Thus my point is not mute.

um, where does it say the invul save is from the crux? in 3rd edition, you could buy terminator honors (which was modelled with the same crux which is also worn by regular power armor marines according to the fluff) for your veteran sergeants and they certainly didn't get an invul save from it. in fact, in 3rd edition, terminators didn't initially even get an invul save period... they had to add that in a white dwarf article because the 40pt models died too easily. moot.

warboss wrote:
um, where does it say the invul save is from the crux? in 3rd edition, you could buy terminator honors (which was modelled with the same crux which is also worn by regular power armor marines according to the fluff) for your veteran sergeants and they certainly didn't get an invul save from it. in fact, in 3rd edition, terminators didn't initially even get an invul save period... they had to add that in a white dwarf article because the 40pt models died too easily. moot.

Please see my previous posts. The 5th edition codex makes it clear on page 102.

Yes, it's 3+ for me.

Do you want it to be realistic? Then play FoW.

If SoB would have the same armour than a marine, they should have the same profile, and they would not be the beatiful and appealing female minis that they were. I said were because 15 years later they can be done much better. If they design them now with a manly armour, they stick the new codex up in their

Necrosis wrote:

warboss wrote:
um, where does it say the invul save is from the crux? in 3rd edition, you could buy terminator honors (which was modelled with the same crux which is also worn by regular power armor marines according to the fluff) for your veteran sergeants and they certainly didn't get an invul save from it. in fact, in 3rd edition, terminators didn't initially even get an invul save period... they had to add that in a white dwarf article because the 40pt models died too easily. moot.

Please see my previous posts. The 5th edition codex makes it clear on page 102.

hmm.... i stand corrected... and disgusted. "ward saves" don't belong in 40k. that explanation is definitely a 5th edition addition to the lore of the space marine.

I think it's actually a force field but that's just my thoughts.

Their armour is smaller because they're smaller, and their armour lacks the interfaces and optimizations that SM armour has. Without the black carapace, their's no need to fit all that extra junk in the armour anyway.

I think their armour fits just fine.

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:[snip]

A bad translation in the German codex does not make for fluff. The fact remains that the Repentia do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Furthermore, here's something straight out of C:WH about the Repentia:

These sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle

Daemons in the CSM codex don't have the Daemon rule. . .or even the Daemonkin rule. Are they not daemons?

That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

Melissia wrote:That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

They are not irrelevant. You continue to bring up the fact that they do not have the Sisters Sororitas special rule, hence my post.

puma713 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

They are not irrelevant. You continue to bring up the fact that they do not have the Sisters Sororitas special rule, hence my post.

Both your points are irrelevant. The 4+ plus save is suppose to represent their ability not to feel pain. The reason they didn't give them the feel no pain rule is cause it didn't exist in that time.

Necrosis wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

They are not irrelevant. You continue to bring up the fact that they do not have the Sisters Sororitas special rule, hence my post.

Both your points are irrelevant. The 4+ plus save is suppose to represent their ability not to feel pain. The reason they didn't give them the feel no pain rule is cause it didn't exist in that time.

I don't think we were even talking about the armor save, but whether or not Sisters Repentia are a part of Sisters Sororitas. But thanks for your input

puma713 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

They are not irrelevant. You continue to bring up the fact that they do not have the Sisters Sororitas special rule, hence my post.

No, I didn't. I said they do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Which, by the way, they do not.

This rule is what defines an infantry unit as part of the Sisters of Battle in the codex, because it has units from three separate factions (Inquisition,n Ecclesiarchy, and Sisters). The Adepta Sororitas special rule represents belonging to the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas, and grants Shield of Faith and the ability to use Acts of Faith. What units have this rule?

Adepta Sororitas Heroine
Celestian Squad
Battle Sisters Squad
Seraphim Squad
Dominion Squad
Retributor Squad

Not, however, Repentia. As they do not have this rule, and are described as OUTCASTS in the fluff blurb, they are quite clearly not part of the Sisters of Battle; they were, but upon joining the Repentia are no more.

Erasoketa wrote:
If SoB would have the same armour than a marine, they should have the same profile, and they would not be the beatiful and appealing female minis that they were. I said were because 15 years later they can be done much better. If they design them now with a manly armour, they stick the new codex up in their

I'm not advocating making them look like men. But why do they have to be beautiful and appealing in order for you to like them? I don't get that at all. Not all of the male miniatures look like Playgirl poster-boys. Why should all the females be beautiful?

Besides, quite a few of the miniatures aren't attractive anyway. They have... man-jaw syndrome... at least it's hard to paint them not to have it.

Melissia wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Melissia wrote:That is irrelevant given the quote I gave-- part of the Repentia fluff blurb, pulled directly out of Codex :Witch Hunters.

The two of them combined make it quite clear, and the fact that they're both in the same codex even moreso.

They are not irrelevant. You continue to bring up the fact that they do not have the Sisters Sororitas special rule, hence my post.

No, I didn't. I said they do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Which, by the way, they do not.

Did we not just say the same thing? Edit: Nevermind, I see the distinction. I obviously meant Adepta Sororitas.

Melissia wrote:This rule is what defines an infantry unit as part of the Sisters of Battle in the codex, because it has units from three separate factions (Inquisition,n Ecclesiarchy, and Sisters). The Adepta Sororitas special rule represents belonging to the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas, and grants Shield of Faith and the ability to use Acts of Faith. What units have this rule?

And this is my point. You're saying that because something does (or in this case, doesn't) have a rule, it must be (or can't be) something else. Hence, the daemons (or daemonkin, at least) example. Maybe Mephiston isn't a named character after all, since he doesn't have the Independent Character rule and is not an upgrade character, and those are the only two types of character, per the BGB.

Melissia wrote:Not, however, Repentia. As they do not have this rule, and are described as OUTCASTS in the fluff blurb, they are quite clearly not part of the Sisters of Battle; they were, but upon joining the Repentia are no more.

I'm not disagreeing with this, actually. All I'm really disagreeing with is using rules to describe fluff or vice versa. Which, by the way, is where this whole conversation started - the rules being defined by "fluff" or "modelling". While not in the strict sense a "Sister of Battle", since they are at the peak of reverence by their fellow sisters, I would say that they had ascended to a plane which the other sisters of battle aspire to, hence making them a sister of battle, of sorts. By giving themselves entirely to the Emperor, they remove themselves (sometimes willingly), but being in a state of grace and being a model for the rest of the Sisters, I'd say that they have more weight as a Sister than not as one, outcasts or not.

Eldar Pathfinders are outcasts, but they're still Eldar. Sisters Repentia may be outcasts, but they're still Sisters. Otherwise, just call them Repentia.

And, in a sense, I am actually agreeing with you here. I think Sisters should have a 3+ save. Why? Because the codex talks about how alike their armor is to a marines? Because it's big and bulky and should have a 3+ save? No, because the rules say that they do.

I voted 4+, simply because it just doesn't look as bulky to me as Marine Armor does, though the lack of support systems fully explains that and at least they are fully covered, unlike most war games.

I would imagine that the only way to explain the massive size of the SM's shoulder and leg pieces would be to contain mechanical strength augmentators, and various coolants and batteries.

Same for the massive hunched backs of terminator armour.

To all who have posted and fought about this:

40k and it's races and technology do not actually exist.

It's ALL fluff, and it's ALL made to look cool/sell. So look has ZERO to do with stat line. If it says 3+, it's 3+, there is no such thing as "looking 3+"

That's pretty much where the argument ends.

Nightsbane wrote:To all who have posted and fought about this:

40k and it's races and technology do not actually exist.

It's ALL fluff, and it's ALL made to look cool/sell. So look has ZERO to do with stat line. If it says 3+, it's 3+, there is no such thing as "looking 3+"

That's pretty much where the argument ends.

Damn, it's not letting me put up the Heresy symbol. One is seriously needed here.

puma713 wrote:And this is my point.

If that is your point, your point is logically fallacious because that was not my entire argument.

The fact that Sisters Repentia are specifically discluded from having the Adepta Sororitas special rule, while still being in the same codex as all other units that have it, combined with the fluff blurb that says they're outcasts, makes it quite clear that they are not part of the Sisters of Battle .It is not any single one of these facts but all of them put together. None of them would actually prove it on their own, technically speaking-- but combined, they make a very good argument.

And THAT is why your comparison to daemons is just inane at best.

Nightsbane wrote:To all who have posted and fought about this:

40k and it's races and technology do not actually exist.

It's ALL fluff, and it's ALL made to look cool/sell. So look has ZERO to do with stat line. If it says 3+, it's 3+, there is no such thing as "looking 3+"

That's pretty much where the argument ends.

You know, for someone with such a smart avatar, you fail to see the point of this thread.

Melissia wrote:

puma713 wrote:And this is my point.

If that is your point, your point is logically fallacious because that was not my entire argument.

The fact that Sisters Repentia are specifically discluded from having the Adepta Sororitas special rule, while still being in the same codex as all other units that have it, combined with the fluff blurb that says they're outcasts, makes it quite clear that they are not part of the Sisters of Battle .It is not any single one of these facts but all of them put together. None of them would actually prove it on their own, technically speaking-- but combined, they make a very good argument.

And THAT is why your comparison to daemons is just inane at best.

I did read your posts. And your argument began with the Adepta Sororitas rule. It was the first thing in your reply to Kroothawk. You didn't actually quote the fluff until later. You mentioned the fact that they are outcasts, but that was it. Then you went into the fluff part of it. Then, once again, you used the "Adepta Sororitas rule" defense against Kroothawk, calling his "translation" (don't you mean GW's translation?) a "bad one" because it didn't match yours. In fact, he had a good point, even about the fluff:

Kroothawk wrote:The short fluff text explains that Repentia is a way to repent within the organisation in contrast to complete outcasts.

You see, fluff can mean something different to you, to Kroothawk, to me and to anyone else that reads it. That's what fluff does - it is fiction that you bring a part of yourself to, just like a novel, or a movie or a play.

But hey, I suppose you're not reading my posts either. Maybe I should "damn" more in them and it wouldn't filter out. I said that I don't agree with the using of rules to verify fluff and vice versa. However, since you're focusing on your own argument and not what I was even getting at, I suppose I'll save my typing for other topics.

Melissia wrote:Half the models of Sisters have helmets. Just because a player decides not to use them doesn't mean anything. Marines have fewer helmets than Sisters.

Furthermore, repentia suck, and nobody uses them. Repentia are just about the worst unit in the game, if not the defacto worst unit.

99.9% of the time I'm on your side with your thoughts on Sisters, but it's not that Repentia suck it's that they are hard to use right. My good buddy picked up some and HATES them till after much prodding he tried them VS an Ultramarine player. They cover hopped and killed.....2 Rhinos, a Vindy, a TW-lascannon/Missile Dread, and Iron Clad and a Land Raider and for the game tie..killed the 3 of 5 Scouts on the OBJ to steal the Win from the Ultras. He rolled butt loads of 6's for his Rage and Diff Terrain tests it was a fluke......but it Ultra player had to pick his jaw,mini's and ego off the table. I was even thinking....crap....what would I do if I had to deal with that unit. 15 with a Mistress and a Priest. The armor other then the walkers didn't move so autohits but that means the priests didn't really need to be there. It's the synergy of the right unit in the right place at the right time (and a crap ton of 6's don't hurt). I hated Kroot some people love them.....does that make them crap or killer? It's just options. Just my thoughts on a unit that has some use if used right. If your Land Raider get's killed on your turn 2 to a lucky shot and all it got to do it move up with no targets to shoot at....does it mean they suck? Almost every unit has a use, some are more easy to see then others.

warboss wrote:this line up of different 40k imperial troopers show's my opinion. the fluff doesn't say that the SOB armor is any more advanced than a marine's mk8 armor yet is supposed to provide the same protection as the noticeably heavier and bulkier marine's armor. while i agree that the fluff says they have full 3+ power armor, the models don't in my opinion. gw chose sexy over protection in the case of SOB when they didn't have to. it's entirely possible to have believable 3+ armor and still be sexy.

The image from this post is a good indicator of scale for the marine, but isn't quite true to what the power armor should look like for the Sister unless she's like 5 feet tall without the armor.

Irrelevant of what the appearance is, it's been mentioned before in this thread that the Space Marine looks bulkier because he is bulkier, naturally. Without his armor he's close to 7-8 feet tall, and probably around 300 pounds of solid muscle and bone, along with a variety of implants. The sister is just a human wearing power armor.

And despite it's appearance, or what it may be crafted to resemble, she IS wearing power armor, and irregardless of her size it grants her the same protection as it would a space marine; he just has other things going in his favor to help keep him alive. The models show a clearer image of what the sisters' armor looks like and resembles, and has a good heft and bulk to it that the drawing simply does not show.

OT: nice pic of Samus btw.

Anarchyman99 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Half the models of Sisters have helmets. Just because a player decides not to use them doesn't mean anything. Marines have fewer helmets than Sisters.

Furthermore, repentia suck, and nobody uses them. Repentia are just about the worst unit in the game, if not the defacto worst unit.

99.9% of the time I'm on your side with your thoughts on Sisters, but it's not that Repentia suck it's that they are hard to use right. My good buddy picked up some and HATES them till after much prodding he tried them VS an Ultramarine player. They cover hopped and killed.....2 Rhinos, a Vindy, a TW-lascannon/Missile Dread, and Iron Clad and a Land Raider and for the game tie..killed the 3 of 5 Scouts on the OBJ to steal the Win from the Ultras. He rolled butt loads of 6's for his Rage and Diff Terrain tests it was a fluke......but it Ultra player had to pick his jaw,mini's and ego off the table. I was even thinking....crap....what would I do if I had to deal with that unit. 15 with a Mistress and a Priest. The armor other then the walkers didn't move so autohits but that means the priests didn't really need to be there. It's the synergy of the right unit in the right place at the right time (and a crap ton of 6's don't hurt). I hated Kroot some people love them.....does that make them crap or killer? It's just options. Just my thoughts on a unit that has some use if used right. If your Land Raider get's killed on your turn 2 to a lucky shot and all it got to do it move up with no targets to shoot at....does it mean they suck? Almost every unit has a use, some are more easy to see then others.

That's the danger of the interwebs. You'll have 10 people telling you your unit sucks while 10 other people telling you its great. The best way, imo, to gauge what a unit will do is see if they fit into your list (and as you pointed out, your playstyle) and then use them. Use them for a game or two. See how people react and see if you can work that into a game. 40K is about mistakes. Whoever makes the least of them wins. A surprise unit can do just that - cause mistakes. If people aren't used to seeing things like Repentia, they may not know what to do against them. It's all in how you field your army and how you play. No two generals are the same and no two lists are the same.

You like a unit? Field it. If it doesn't work, take it out. But don't pass on it simply because someone else tells you it sucks. You be the judge.

puma713 wrote:You like a unit? Field it. If it doesn't work, take it out. But don't pass on it simply because someone else tells you it sucks. You be the judge.

Spot on....I used Biovore in both the 3rd and 4th Ed Tyranid books and still do.....I used it for fun and the love of the unit.

Quite coincidentally I do not recommend googling the phrase "Slaanesh Marine".

Fafnir wrote:

Nightsbane wrote:To all who have posted and fought about this:

40k and it's races and technology do not actually exist.

It's ALL fluff, and it's ALL made to look cool/sell. So look has ZERO to do with stat line. If it says 3+, it's 3+, there is no such thing as "looking 3+"

That's pretty much where the argument ends.

You know, for someone with such a smart avatar, you fail to see the point of this thread.

Anyone who gets anything from my avatar should realize how stupid this conversation is. Should we next talk about if the carnifex shell REALLY looks like it fits it's saves? Let's continue to argue the validity of imaginary creatures and factions. Not a single thought went into what these things SHOULD look like, but would they COULD look like and sell. The end.

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

GW Website wrote:Sisters Repentia

Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, those who fall short of the rigorous codes may find themselves banded into groups and led into battle in an attempt to earn redemption.

This set contains 3 metal Sisters Repentia.

Unit Composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sisters Repentia.

Melissia wrote:A bad translation in the German codex does not make for fluff. The fact remains that the Repentia do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Furthermore, here's something straight out of C:WH about the Repentia:

These sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle

Sisters Repentia don't have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Correct.
Sisters Repentia aren't sisters. Wrong (proof: UK GW website http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1300165&prodId=prod1080202).

As Melissia can't admit being wrong once and continues to unfairly exploit the fact that the English WH pdf isn't released yet, can I ask someone else to give the English quotes from rule ("Unit composition: Mistress and 4-19 Sororitas") and fluff texts (esp the part "...find themselves outcast of the Order OR in groups supplied with ceremonical eviscerators ..."?).

BTW Sisters Dialogous and Sisters Hospitaller from the Inquisitor retinue are also members of the Adepta Sororitas (page 11: Civil Orders) without having the special rule. So much for mixing up rules with fluff.

Power armour is an advanced compostie ceramic and metal in the fluff - that, not necessarily the thickness of the armour, is what grants the save. Hence it is a 3+, as they ARE wearing power armour -they have the plasma reactor on the back to prove it! It just only has some of the fibre bundle muscles, presumably doesnt integrate into the marine as much due to a lack of the black carapace, etc.

However with their power armour a marine can run at speed for days at a time - something a sister could not do. Which is fine, as all we're discussing is armour save in a 7 turn (so minutes) long battle.

THe other issue is: its a D6 system. If you had D100 like, oooh, Dark Heresy, you could more accurately represent the differences. So a marine may have an armour bonus of 8 to their toughness, while "light" power armour may only give an armour bonus of 7 - while artificer armour may be 10.

"Crux Terminatus" btw - supposed to contain a holy relic or item. This faith is what gives an invulnerable save - although it containing a small forcefield generator, like the marine 4+ save items, is likely

Terminators bulk is also secondary to the armour save, as tehy can survive longer periods in vacuum and is meant to be more resilient to repeated strikes in the same place, hence the thickness. Remember: terminator armour was designed for breaching ships and corridor fighting. Pushing forwards into a confined space is far more wearing on armour than being able to freely run and dodge, so to accomplish the same task requires more and more.

I agree. The D6 system does not provide enough variation to reflect the different types of armours theoretically presented.

However, Toughness is used as a supplement, so SMs are less likely to be killed than SoBs even though their armour is in theory the same stuff and grants a 3+ save in both cases.

CynthiaCM wrote:

Erasoketa wrote:
If SoB would have the same armour than a marine, they should have the same profile, and they would not be the beatiful and appealing female minis that they were. I said were because 15 years later they can be done much better. If they design them now with a manly armour, they stick the new codex up in their

I'm not advocating making them look like men. But why do they have to be beautiful and appealing in order for you to like them? I don't get that at all. Not all of the male miniatures look like Playgirl poster-boys. Why should all the females be beautiful?

To be visually appealing for the gamers. I don't say they need to show skin like many Reaper minis, just be some more femenine for the sake of variety. Most popular army is SM. If I were looking for a secondary army and the old metal minis were like SM, I wouldn't have started SoB. I would have tryed any other chapter with newer rules, or any other race. Yeah, I guess not all the male minis are "hot jocks". But many of them are cool minis. Gui le Gross (an old Bretonian character honoring Fray Tuck from Robin Hood) was ace. The canoness and Saint Celestine minis are anything but beatifull for me. But both of them have tons of character, and I own 2 of each. I want to use one of the Saint Celestines to make a small conversion of Saint Sabbat.

Melissia wrote:Besides, quite a few of the miniatures aren't attractive anyway. They have... man-jaw syndrome... at least it's hard to paint them not to have it.

Well, when they were made they were cuter than Orks and bald screaming SMs. It's true that their faces and their static poses haven't aged very good. But there are uglier sisters than the battle sisters. That one with a ponytail and a bolt pistol that was made for Inquisitor. Fugly face. As I said in my previous post, they can be done much better now.


On the armours topic. Flak armour are just a couple of plates in chest and shoulders. Caparace armour is the same kind of armour extended full body. Power armour is a much heavier armour wich needs servos and a power source to be used. Flak and caparace could be represented by a light metal or something similar to kevlar. And I think the minis really look like that. Powerarmours could be represented by a much heavier metal. And I think they are! Both space marines and sisters of battle. And the DH Inquisitors. Maybe the limbs of the SoB are thinner than the Kasrkin or Stormtroopers's limbs. But SoB armour seems thiker metal wich cover the full limbs, while Kasrkin and Stormtroopers look like kevlar or a thinner metal covering the front parts of the limbs.

Cadians, Valhallans and Catachans don't have the same amount of armour in their minis, but have the same save roll. So what? Who cares? They are generic Imperial Guard troopers.

Exactly - the combination of stats is what allows the complexity that a D6 alone lacks.

So Weapon Skill combines with iniative to show both your defensive skills and offensive abilities. Toughness and Armour save combine to show how difficult it is to hurt you - which is what Dark Heresy directly shows with the toughness bonus reduction on wounds taken, which stacks with your armour.

So light power armour gives a 3+ save, but the sister is easier to wound in the first place - indicating that the shot, even if stopped by the armour, may have still caused internal damage, ala broken ribs from kevlar stopping a bullet from going inside your body. Still hurt you, just not as badly - which is what 40k is representing, however abstractly, with the T/W/Save system.

agnosto wrote:I never understood how these get a 4+ save:

I met Graham McNeil at a Games Day a few years back and asked him about this... The reason Repentia completely suck is because they were initially envisioned as a sort of Sister's terminator, complete with 2+ save. When they saw the models, they knew they couldn't justify a 2+ save, and knocked it down to 4+, figuring it was their faith in the Emperor that afforded them that much. Of course, with a 2+ save, they might just make it across the battlefield and survive some enemy hits to be able to use those chainswords...

I would just like to point out the leather armor used by many native tribes versus the bamboo armor of the Samurai. While the leather armors were actually thicker, and more dense, they are in no way comparible to samurai slat bamboo armor, which is powerful based off the structural strength and slopping curves/angles. Bulky, thicker, more armor, does not neccessarily confer a better strength armor. Perhaps the power armor they wear can follow slightly better deflection curves due to the fact they aren't muscles with legs. I truly have no opinion on the matter. I can come up with as many reasons they do and don't look like they have a 3+.

OT

Samurai armour is made of steel plates.

It's possible some may have been made of bamboo as a light parade armour. I've never heard of it being regular issue.

The outer shell was made of steel, the inside was compressed bamboo. All the steel did was slow down penetration and add to deflection, over 90% of the armor was bamboo, compressed via a steaming, flattening then shaping procedure. This is how the earliest Samurai armor was made, before the samurai died off, they did eventually get to a nearly full steel armor, but that was much later then the period I am describing/referencing.

On samurai:
While Helmet and chest armour were often made of metal, most other parts of the armour were not:



On Repentia:
In my Codex they are always referred to as Sisters or Sororitas (Latin for sisters). And I don't believe Melissia that all this is a translation error and that the English Codex uses something different, esp. as the UK website doesn't. And they stay part of the same Ordo Militant they originate from according to the small fluff text.
Why don't they have the Adepta Sororitas special rule? Repenting Sisters are in no position to ask the God Emperor for a small wonder (Acts of Faith) to stay alive. Simple as that.

On Graham McNeil:
They could have given them a 2+ ward save due to divine protection.

I do. Because I have the goddamned codex in front of me. They are referred to as Sisters Repentia, NEVER as Sororitas or Adepta Sororitas, and are considered outcasts.

Kroothawk wrote:On Repentia:
In my Codex they are always referred to as Sisters or Sororitas (Latin for sisters). And I don't believe Melissia that all this is a translation error and that the English Codex uses something different, esp. as the UK website doesn't. And they stay part of the same Ordo Militant they originate from according to the small fluff text.
Why don't they have the Adepta Sororitas special rule? Repenting Sisters are in no position to ask the God Emperor for a small wonder (Acts of Faith) to stay alive. Simple as that.

On Graham McNeil:
They could have given them a 2+ ward save due to divine protection.

If they are not in position to ask Acts of Faith then they shouldn't be in position to ask for divine protection

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:I would just like to point out the leather armor used by many native tribes versus the bamboo armor of the Samurai. While the leather armors were actually thicker, and more dense, they are in no way comparible to samurai slat bamboo armor, which is powerful based off the structural strength and slopping curves/angles. .

I'll go OT here:
I'm sorry but you're wrong about the samurai armor. The tanko and keiko (4th - 6th century) were a completely metal cuirass that opened like a clam shell. Later, the style of armor changed to something like what you're thinking about called o-yoroi, which used 4 sets of kozane which were metal plates. It looks like cloth, leather and bamboo because it's covered with an apron called a tsurubashiri which they used to keep bowstrings from being caught up in the armor plates.

For D&D nerds, the best armor would be equivalent to a breastplate while the worst would be scale mail.

Yeah, I loves me some Japanese history...

Back on topic:
Is it possible to get the same protection in a smaller package? Not really. Even if you're talking about the same material; armor, even modern day, is designed to be used in layers not as one complete package. I'd compare SoB and C:SM armor as follows..
C:SM armor:


Layers and layers of armor with chainmail under it all. The reason being that a genetically modified man is strong enough to carry around this equipment and the layers of protection necessary to provide an equivalent 3+ (in game terms) protection.

SoB on the other hand would be more like this:


They are covered in armor but are physically incapable of wearing the layers of protection. If SM armor was so light that SoB could wear an equivalent, then everyone in the 40K universe should be 3+.

Rules trump fluff. The fluff means nothing, they have make the rules so that people would actually want to buy the pretty models they make. Fluff is just there for added spice and has no bearing on actual rules in the game.

They are covered in armor but are physically incapable of wearing the layers of protection.

That's why they use powered armor. Duh.

Sisters of Battle wear power armor, which provides the same amount of protection as Astartes armor, but without having the same level of strength-enhancement and life support that it has. It obviously still has SOME strength enhancement, however, because Sisters are able to move around in their heavy suits of armor carrying heavy bolters and firing them as accurately as Marines do. It also has some features Marine armor doesn't have, such as, and I quote, "psycho-occular buffering", which effects the human mind allowing it to stay focused even in a combat situation. Sororitas helmets improve their combat effectiveness quite a bit. Along with "full-spectrum filtering" amongst other things. Technobabble is lovely.

Found an English Codex.

They are indeed referred to as Sisters (with capital "S") in both rule and fluff texts as I claimed. The relevant fluff text goes like this:

Codex Witch Hunters wrote:Confession and penance are part of a Sister's everyday existence, and those who fall short of the Sisterhood's rigorous codes may, in the most extreme of cases, find themselves exiled from their Order or banded into groups armed with the mighty ceremonial eviscerators and led into battle by the harsh mistresses. Indeed, through a deep seated desire to seek the Emperor's grace, some may willingly exile themselves, finding fault in the smallest imagined transgression. These Sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle, yet at the same time are revered by their Sisters, who see them as pilgrims seeking that what can only be found in death - absolution.(emphasis by me)

So wrongdoers are either exiled from the Order or (not exiled from the Order and) put into Sister Repentia squads. They are always refered to as Sisters (and seen as such by the other Sisters) which qualifies them as members of the Sisterhood.

So common sense, GW website, Lexicanum ( http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sisters_Repentia ) AND the English Codex all agree, that Sisters Repentia are Sisters.

They are referred to as Sisters Repentia, and OUTCASTS (apparently you didn't see fit to emphasize that part). Not Sisters of Battle

Rather then straighten you out on Samurais armor and further derail this thread, read this. your Japanese history is lacking, stay away from wikipedia please.

http://www.quanonline.com/military/military_reference/japanese/samurai_armor.html

Melissia wrote: Duh.

How mature.

Melissia wrote:
Sisters of Battle wear power armor, which provides the same amount of protection as Astartes armor, but without having the same level of strength-enhancement and life support that it has. It obviously still has SOME strength enhancement, however, because Sisters are able to move around in their heavy suits of armor carrying heavy bolters and firing them as accurately as Marines do. It also has some features Marine armor doesn't have, such as, and I quote, "psycho-occular buffering", which effects the human mind allowing it to stay focused even in a combat situation. Sororitas helmets improve their combat effectiveness quite a bit. Along with "full-spectrum filtering" amongst other things. Technobabble is lovely.

Why aren't they strength 4 if they can wear heavy armor AND carry a heavy bolter? The argument is that the armor produces enough strength enhancement to allow them to wear it; it's now that they can wear this heavy armor and carry a heavy weapon?

Necromunda Heavys carry heavy weapons without using power armours.

agnosto wrote:

Melissia wrote:
Sisters of Battle wear power armor, which provides the same amount of protection as Astartes armor, but without having the same level of strength-enhancement and life support that it has. It obviously still has SOME strength enhancement, however, because Sisters are able to move around in their heavy suits of armor carrying heavy bolters and firing them as accurately as Marines do. It also has some features Marine armor doesn't have, such as, and I quote, "psycho-occular buffering", which effects the human mind allowing it to stay focused even in a combat situation. Sororitas helmets improve their combat effectiveness quite a bit. Along with "full-spectrum filtering" amongst other things. Technobabble is lovely.

Why aren't they strength 4 if they can wear heavy armor AND carry a heavy bolter? The argument is that the armor produces enough strength enhancement to allow them to wear it; it's now that they can wear this heavy armor and carry a heavy weapon?

Erasoketa wrote:Necromunda Heavys carry heavy weapons without using power armours.

That and RL soldiers can carry rocket launchers by themselves. Not to mention the amount of firepower man carried guns have.

OH NOES! REALISM IN GAMES! (Beat you to it )

Melissia wrote:Repentia aren't Sisters.

Sisters Repentia are Sisters. Simple as that.

Those "banded into groups armed with the mighty ceremonial eviscerators and led into battle by the harsh mistresses" (i.e. Sisters Repentia) are not exiled from the Order so still members of the Order, as this is the alternative to exile. Whether those outcasts later in the text are Sisters Repentia or not (the text leaves it open), they are still called Sisters and seen as Sisters by their fellow Sisters, so are Sisters.

Lexicanum: "A Sisters Repentia Squad is an unit of the Adepta Sororitas and part of a Witch Hunters army."
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sisters_Repentia

But in the end, I must accept that not everyone is informed about and interested in the official Adepta Sororitas background, so I leave it at that, so not to further derail this thread with off-topic discussion. Personally I would be glad to get new insights to the background of my favorite armies, but obviously others fight new insights with every fibre of their body.

Slarg232 wrote:

OH NOES! REALISM IN GAMES! (Beat you to it )

Realism? I beg to differ. In WW2 machine guns were carried in teams because there's no way 1 man could carry a heavy weapon and the ammunition.

According to US Army Field Manual 3-21.8 (Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad) a typical United States Army fireteam consists of four soldiers:
Team Leader: Equipped with the M16 rifle or M4 carbine.
Rifleman: They are equipped with the M16 rifle or M4 carbine. The rifleman is usually assigned with the grenadier to help balance the firepower capabilities of the automatic rifleman.
Grenadier: Equipped with an M4/M16 with the M203 grenade launcher (or newer M320 grenade launcher) slung under the barrel.
Automatic Rifleman: provides suppressive fire; equipped with M249 Squad Automatic Weapon.

They'll share the ammo load because a loaded SAW weighs about 22lbs and ammo isn't light. We're talking 200 round belts in a weapon that has a minimal 750 rpm rof.... not to mention STANAGs for when the damn thing jams... A heavy bolter, something that fires explosive shells basically, would weigh much much more as would the ammo.

If you want realism in 40k, limit the amount of ammunition models can fire because there's no way even a space marine can hump enough HB ammo for an entire battle at the rate of fire a HB uses it up; I don't care if he has a backpack of it.

agnosto wrote:Why aren't they strength 4 if they can wear heavy armor AND carry a heavy bolter? The argument is that the armor produces enough strength enhancement to allow them to wear it; it's now that they can wear this heavy armor and carry a heavy weapon?

Why are scouts strength four outside of power armor?

Sisters aren't strength four because they are humans, not Marines. By the way, necromunda gangers use civilian-model heavy bolters, IE, smaller ones of lower caliber than those used by the Imperial Guard, Sisters, and Astartes.

SoB were designed with heavy weapons in their hips just because Necromunda heavies like the Orlocks were a success. Sister were popular too. And after that two good critiques, GW changed the SM from shoulder weapons to hip weapons.

Trying to justify everything in a fictional universe that has grown and changed by sells numbers is a nosense.

Rule of cool.

Melissia wrote:Sisters aren't strength four because they are humans, not Marines. By the way, necromunda gangers use civilian-model heavy bolters, IE, smaller ones of lower caliber than those used by the Imperial Guard, Sisters, and Astartes.

Right but you also said that they get a bit of strength from the power armor so that they can carry it around. Pick up a piece of ceramic pottery and put a couple of pounds of steel inside, now imagine that on your entire body. Now carry a 40 pound weapon and 100+ pounds of ammo.

Like I've said from the beginning. You can try to reason with fluff all you want but it's not fluff that makes the rules. They're 140 pound women carrying 200+ pounds of weapons and gear; it doesn't matter how much fluff you throw at it, it doesn't make sense. Even a complete, powered exo-skeleton would only reduce that to like 60pounds (I'm guessing here). Let's just admit that they made the rules so the unit would be functional and call it a day.

agnosto wrote:

Melissia wrote:Sisters aren't strength four because they are humans, not Marines. By the way, necromunda gangers use civilian-model heavy bolters, IE, smaller ones of lower caliber than those used by the Imperial Guard, Sisters, and Astartes.

Right but you also said that they get a bit of strength from the power armor so that they can carry it around. Pick up a piece of ceramic pottery and put a couple of pounds of steel inside, now imagine that on your entire body. Now carry a 40 pound weapon and 100+ pounds of ammo.

Yes, and if Sisters can do this with S3, and yet Marines OUTSIDE of their armor are S4... it rather clearly shows just how much stronger Marines are than humans, right?

"Strength 3" is a very wide variance of strength levels. Untrained conscripts are strength three-- basically what amounts to an average civilian. So are Orks, and Eldar, and Tyranid Gaunts, and Tau, and...

warboss wrote:

Melissia wrote:What it looks like is irrelevant. Sisters wear power armor.

half right, half wrong. yes, they do wear power armor BUT what it looks like is relevant. this is a visual medium and a SMALL portion of the 40k player base likes to see well sculpted painted models that accurately depict the fluff.

Fixed that for you.

Every thread I have ever seen on Dakka Dakka about females and their armor has quickly devolved into "I HEART BOOBS111"

Of course SoB look like they have a 3+

Power armour - 3+ - full suit of rigid armour panels
Carapace - 4+ - soft suit with partial rigid panels
flak armour - 5+ - minimal armour (torso, shoulder pads, helmet)

This has been maintained consistently through the range.

Now, if you want a real debate, how the hell do catachans get any save at all, let alone a 5+?

CT GAMER wrote:Every thread I have ever seen on Dakka Dakka about females and their armor has quickly devolved into "I HEART BOOBS111"

That doesn't say much about the quality of posters here... regardless, this thread doesn't seem to go along very well with that, as most of the posters in it have been mature.

Sisters wear power armour. It's not the super strength-enhancing suit that marines wear, thus they s3 t3. But protection-wise, it's just as good.

well the way I thought about it is that the armour save just dosnt account for what kind of armour they are wearing but other factors. the sisters of battle armour looks lighter but that would also mean they are more agile, and are faster then space marines, might not be able to run as far but still an example of this would be the assassins inv save because they are fast they get one

Melissia wrote:
"Strength 3" is a very wide variance of strength levels. Untrained conscripts are strength three-- basically what amounts to an average civilian. So are Orks, and Eldar, and Tyranid Gaunts, and Tau, and...

Yeah, but in real world terms, I doubt you could find a power-lifter that could carry 200+ pounds of equipment all day AND fight...and they'd still be strength 3 in 40K.

Again, I don't have a problem with SoB having a 3+; Ijust don't think people should try and justify it with fluff/reason. It's a game.

If we went by fluff, Tau would be Strength 2 because they are stated to be smaller and weaker than average humans (even though the figs are comparable).

Well yeah, they're power lifters, not endurance lifters. There's a huge difference between strength and endurance.

Melissia wrote:Well yeah, they're power lifters, not endurance lifters. There's a huge difference between strength and endurance.

Now, now there's no reason to be obtuse; you know what I was getting at.

Wait, me not be obtuse and tangential? Perish the thought!

Marine armour is bulky because it has all sorts of extra bits and systems stuck into it.


Sister armour is the protective plates and maybe small servo moters for added mobility. that backpack has oxygen supplies and the helmet is connected to that.


a suit of armour can be astoundingly heavy and the wearer will still be able to move quickely. this is because the weight is spreadout over the entire body, add in Servo moters and the armours weight becomes a non-issue.

Melissia wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Every thread I have ever seen on Dakka Dakka about females and their armor has quickly devolved into "I HEART BOOBS111"

regardless, this thread doesn't seem to go along very well with that, as most of the posters in it have been mature.

Give them time, blood in the water and all...

CT GAMER wrote:

Melissia wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Every thread I have ever seen on Dakka Dakka about females and their armor has quickly devolved into "I HEART BOOBS111"

regardless, this thread doesn't seem to go along very well with that, as most of the posters in it have been mature.

Give them time, blood in the water and all...

Well lets face it, who DOESN'T heart boobies?

Gay males?

Melissia wrote:Gay males?

Point taken, but still.

Melissia wrote:Gay males?

Or non-gay females.

Did I really read a few posts where people said battle sisters were sculpted to be sexy? Really? Those pissboy haircuts and marbles stuck on the chest for breasts are what you guys are calling sexy?

Eldar Banshees - yes
Old style damonettes - very much so
Vect's slave girls - yummy

Battlesisters - hell no. The only reason they look like that is so that you would know they are female. The sisters repentia have more sex appeal in a leather/bondage fetish sort of way than your basic battle sister.

Anyway, I feel that they do have the 3+ save going for them because there is no obvious fabric (aside from loincloths and capes). It all clearly looks like form fitted prefabricated material. As such its full suit armor, thus able to have a 3+ save. The petite size of it doesn't matter. That representation is handled by the S3 and T3.

agnosto wrote:

Melissia wrote:Gay males?

Or non-gay females.

Most of my friends are females, and they always comment about how other girls boobs look. They might not heart them, but definitely envy them

lol wow This post just changed subjects alot.

The main factor in the save is what its made out of. SoB power armour is still Ceramite and Adamantium. The best stuff the Imperium has to offer.

xxmatt85 wrote:There suits don't seem to cover that much, but I put 4+ just because it looks hard enough.

It just looks imcompte to be 3+.

Doesn't cover much? The armor covers the entire body, from foot to chin (and the head, if the sister is wearing a helmet). What part looks incomplete? It's also incredibly bulky. The sister model is about the same size as most non-character marine models, and bulkier than most other troop models. Aside from marines, the standard sister model looks like the most heavily armored basic troop in the game. Yes, the marine models do look like they are armored a little better, but I can easily accept that both Sisters and Marine armor fall in the same general range.

That anyone could say that Sisters armor looks incomplete or that it doesn't cover much is just... trolling, I guess. Looks like I fell for it.

but I do agree, this armour they currently have is more of a Carapace with full hazardous protection. its need to look a tad bit more like armour

A tad more like armor? Really? Again, big, bulky armor that covers the model from feet to head? Look at the model!

overtly sexy sculpts feel oddly out of place.

I guess this is a matter of opinion, but I really don't feel like the models are overly sexy. They are designed to be much more gothic and ornate looking than other imperial forces (they are the forces of the space church, an organization known for that kind of thing), and the fact of their gender is played up in their design. But I don't feel like this makes the models overly sexy. I would call them very moderately sexy (and that may be splitting hairs), but I imagine most people wouldn't see the models as very sexy at all. There is a lot of sexy SoB illustrations, although most of it doesn't come from 40k, but related products. The Sisters have (in my opinion) never been portrayed as sexy in their own codex.

If it says 3+, it's 3+, there is no such thing as "looking 3+"

Truth. I think a lot of the arguments on this thread are coming from the assumption that Space Marine power armor = 3+ save is the standard for 3+ saves. This just isn't true. Probably power armor, along with the Carnifex carapace and Tau Crisis Suits (they have 3+, right?) are at the high end of the 3+ range, with other power armor, Aspect Warrior armor, Incubus armor and other stuff coming in at the low range. the important thing to remember is that it is a range.

Bloodfrenzy187 wrote:Actually, I think the Crux Terminus is part of Terminator armor and as far as I can tell the honor guard are not wearing terminator armor. The only reason the get the 2+ save is because their armor is artificer armor there is no 5+ invulnerable.

^this. The Crux is just a symbol. It doesn't give any bonus. The fluff indicates it's "just" a fragment of the Emperor's armor. They get an invuln save because they are wearing Tactical DREADNOUGHT Armor. It was either that or give them vehicle stats.

No.

the Fragment actually projects a force field.

Uh, pretty sure it doesn't.

DukeRustfield wrote:
^this. The Crux is just a symbol. It doesn't give any bonus. The fluff indicates it's "just" a fragment of the Emperor's armor. They get an invuln save because they are wearing Tactical DREADNOUGHT Armor. It was either that or give them vehicle stats.

Dude read the Codex. I don't know how many times I have to say it. They guy who you quoted already admitted he was wrong. Just read page 102 of the space marine Codex.

So melissia, I ask you this. Are blood angels and space wolves space marines?

Ok, seriously nightsbane, don't. Don't start with that.

Luke_Prowler wrote:You've got to remember that Space marine armor is bulky because space marines themselves are bulky. Power armor used by normal humans is much smaller compared to the walking refrigerators

Gasp! Logic! Burn the Witch!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jake wrote:
Truth. I think a lot of the arguments on this thread are coming from the assumption that Space Marine power armor = 3+ save is the standard for 3+ saves. This just isn't true. Probably power armor, along with the Carnifex carapace and Tau Crisis Suits (they have 3+, right?) are at the high end of the 3+ range, with other power armor, Aspect Warrior armor, Incubus armor and other stuff coming in at the low range. the important thing to remember is that it is a range.

Gasp! More logic still! Heresy is rampant in this thread. *submits papers for Exterminatus*

What is this nonsense about an armor save representing "a range" of armors? That's like implying that game stats are some sort of abstraction of the fluff, rather than a hard and concrete representation of it. But I know no one is crazy to actually suggest that. I mean, come on, the fluff clearly states the average Guardsman is 75% as strong as a Space Marine, and 50% as strong as a dreadnought, and thus the game stats reflect this.

Lol, we can't have logic on dakka-dakka.

What is this logic thing of which you speak? Is it contagious? Get it away from me!

On the topic of sisters only being s3 and wearing heavy armor with a heavy weapon... what the hell do you think the "powered" part of the armor is helping them to do? They still don't have the raw strength of a marine, but it allows them to wield weapons with one sister that would normally require a heavy weapons team for the IG.

Ok, so SoB have 3+ Sv. And that's a fact, no point in discussing that.

Now does their armour look like it grants 3+ Sv?
Honestly, not really.

marine armour grants 3+ saves because of the thick plating and the shape of the armour which is designed to deflect projectiles not just to stop them.

If you look at SoB armour, we see that the plating isn't clearly as thick, but this could be easily explained by the use of lighter alloys and the such.
But, when looking at the shape of the armour, well my friends that's when hits the fan, the armour design isn't really useful for deflecting projectiles (sure some pieces do have the required shape, I'll give you that) but overall the design fails to do so and this is why it looks more like gear giving 4+ Sv rather than 3+ Sv.

The GW's logic is good, Marines are the best the Empire has to offer, so give them +3 Sv, guard is the "meatshield" and easily replaceable so we need to gear them with materials that we can mass produce 5+ Sv. if you're willing to pay the price you can get 4+ Sv.
But then they had sisters, which are better than Guard but are not as battle hardened as space marines, if they are better than guard, they must have better armour, and the best guard has is 4+ so lets give them a 3+ Sv, but hey, marines are the Elite, and sisters aren't as good as Marines, cut them on S and T and we're done.
This just shows a lack of effort by GW on the models.

P.S - In no way am I criticising the fact that SoB have 3+ Sv, just saying that sisters models should be redone to better represent their stats.

How did the marines armour look back in 2nd edition?

Necrosis wrote:How did the marines armour look back in 2nd edition?

More or less like this:



which still looks more effective than SoB armour.

And which further validates my point, like marines were redone, so should sisters

For human power armor, their models look perfectly fine. Some stylistic (read, not ultra-realistic like actually considering deflection angles... look at the vehicles for Emperor's sake) free-reign is a given in 40K. And in my opinion, the models are gorgeous as they are (Jes Goodwin's work will not be slandered in any way in my presence!). As we just covered not half a dozen posts ago, a good reason why Space Marine power armor is so bulky and lumpy is because they have mutated gorillas inside them.

And they have power armor because of the fluff. The Ecclessiarchy is FILTHY FILTHY FILTHY rich, with resources many times over that of several chapters combined (hell, probably all of them). They can afford to equip their troops with the best of the best, which is why their soldiers have power armor and carry boltguns just like Space Marines.

Krauser wrote:

Necrosis wrote:How did the marines armour look back in 2nd edition?

More or less like this:

which still looks more effective than SoB armour.

And which further validates my point, like marines were redone, so should sisters

technically, those are 1st edition rogue trader marines but the amount of armor hasn't changed much since then (they're a bit bulkier with 2nd ed and on).

Sister power armour has corsets and titty cups in it. It clearly doesn't look like it would give a 3+ save.

warboss wrote:

Krauser wrote:

Necrosis wrote:How did the marines armour look back in 2nd edition?

More or less like this:

which still looks more effective than SoB armour.

And which further validates my point, like marines were redone, so should sisters

technically, those are 1st edition rogue trader marines but the amount of armor hasn't changed much since then (they're a bit bulkier with 2nd ed and on).

Yeah, I know, but I couldn't be bothered to keep looking, so I just picked one of the first pics that I found.
Those are indeed RT era marines, but like you've said, the difference is not that much.

STYLE OVER REALISM! ABSTRACTION! WELCOME TO SWORD AND GUN FANTASY IN SPACE!

even the Dakka boards agree, as they double post even though I only clicked once.

While the Sisters look beautiful, the armour does not match the fluff. It roughly looks equivalent to Banshee or Fire Warrior armor. Due to this I voted 4+.

I like some of the slightly beefier concept art that is in this thread. I think the transition to plastics will probably beef them up to where they look right. Just hope GW puts some real love into the sculpts.

Melissia wrote:Lol, we can't have logic on dakka-dakka.

Go right ahead and dodge that question I asked you, probably a good idea since it destroys your entire argument thus far.

This is similar to Orks vs IG vs Tau in terms of strength. I think of it this way, SoB is low 3+, Marines mid 3+ and Crisis Suits high 3+.

It also says that it lacks the life support and strength enhancing functions of the marine's power armour. That would slim it down a bit in my opinion.

Actually no. Sisters get the same amount of protection as Astartes . It says so specifically in C:WH.

Yes, but goes on to mention that they have to forego the life support and strenght enhancing as they don't have the black carapace in the same paragraph.

I'm on your side in this

No, you said Sisters have "low 3+", which is false... if Marines are "high 3+", then so are Sisters, as their armor provides the same amount of protection. Life support would be T, and strength-enhancing would be S.

And what the Sisters armor lacks are the more ADVANCED life support and strength-enhancing systems... not all of them, as some people try and suggest (not you).

focusedfire wrote:While the Sisters look beautiful, the armour does not match the fluff. It roughly looks equivalent to Banshee or Fire Warrior armor. Due to this I voted 4+.

What something is made of is more important then it's look. Adamantine and Ceramite are what justify the 3+ save...

Also, I don't think the Sisters models are beautiful.

They certainly are on the low end of Jes Goodwin's work...

Why are we using Marine armor as the standard for 3+? Lets use a crisis suit instead. It's obviously bigger and bulkier, so must represent the top of the 3+ range. Hell, next to a crisis suit, space marine armor maybe looks like it grants a 4+. Maybe.

I've edited some comments to illustrate my point:

"While the Space Marines look beautiful, the armour does not match the fluff. It roughly looks equivalent to Banshee or Fire Warrior armor. Due to this I voted 4+."

"I think it looks like they would get a 4+ save. The armor looks just a tad lighter than a Crisis Suit, plus the fact that marines are not wearing mechanized battle suits that are able to take as much punishment as Crisis Suit."

"I have a really tough time understanding how anyone can think the Marine armor, which is very obviously much smaller than a Crisis suit, confers the same bonuses. The tau look like they're slogging along in a dumpster."

"Anywho, I'm in the camp with them looking like 4+ but being 3+ because there'd be no point in playing them if they were 4+. "

"4+: it's noticeably lighter and less protection than a Crisis suit"

"I voted 4+, simply because it just doesn't look as bulky to me as a Crisis Suit does"

"They are covered in armor but are physically incapable of wearing the layers of protection. If Crisis Suit armor was so light that marines could wear an equivalent, then everyone in the 40K universe should be 3+. "

"Now does their armour look like it grants 3+ Sv? Honestly, not really. Crisis suits grants3+ saves because of the thick plating and the shape of the armour which is designed to deflect projectiles not just to stop them. If you look at Marine armour, we see that the plating isn't clearly as thick"


Hmm...

/thread?

I think /thread

n0t_u wrote:Yes, but goes on to mention that they have to forego the life support and strength enhancing as they don't have the black carapace in the same paragraph.

I'm on your side in this

(emphasis mine)


Wait, so the argument that they're able to tote around 200+ pounds of equipment because of the strength enhancement the armor provides is disproved by their own fluff?

Meh.

Oh! A Barbed Hierodule also has a 3+ save. Well gak, I guess that completely invalidates everyone else's 3+, right? Because if that's what a 3+ save looks like, Space marines, crisis suits, Scorps and Sisters aren't coming anywhere close.

Or a carnifex....3 tons of chiton...

It's all arbitrary to make the game playable (minimally as it turns out).

agnosto wrote:Wait, so the argument that they're able to tote around 200+ pounds of equipment because of the strength enhancement the armor provides is disproved by their own fluff?

Melissia wrote:And what the Sisters armor lacks are the more ADVANCED life support and strength-enhancing systems... not all of them, as some people try and suggest.

Thank you, no.

Melissia wrote:

agnosto wrote:Wait, so the argument that they're able to tote around 200+ pounds of equipment because of the strength enhancement the armor provides is disproved by their own fluff?

Melissia wrote:And what the Sisters armor lacks are the more ADVANCED life support and strength-enhancing systems... not all of them, as some people try and suggest.

Thank you, no.

Last thing I'll say about this because, a) I don't really care because it's just a game and b) It doesn't need to make sense because it's just a game.

The setence you're drawing that from, page 19 of the codex, "It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced life support and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines.."

There are two ways to interpret this sentance. 1) That they have some rudimentary form of life support and strength enhancement. or 2) The life support and strength enhancement systems, in and of themselves, are advanced functions that are provided by access to armor systems provided by the black carapace. You obviously support interpretation 1 and I, interpretation 2. We'll just have to disagree. (not that it matters because, like I've said several times, it doesn't have to make sense, it's just a game)

Well I got a real life example of armours looking diffrent but still offering the same protection. the army has 2 types of armour # 1 IBA it heavy its bulky ok # 2 its the IOTV and this one is lighter then the IBA but offers the same amount of protection the IBA offers. I dont know if this will help its just an example.

Black_Templars97 wrote:Well I got a real life example of armours looking diffrent but still offering the same protection. the army has 2 types of armour # 1 IBA it heavy its bulky ok # 2 its the IOTV and this one is lighter then the IBA but offers the same amount of protection the IBA offers. I dont know if this will help its just an example.

Not true, the fully kitted IOTV weighs 30-35 lbs and the fully kitted IBA weighs 33 lbs. So weight is a non-comparison. I'll give you the bulky factor and the fact that the IOTV is much easier to don/shed.

I voted 3+.

Thing is, the armour doesn't have to be the same size for it to give the same protection. Therefore you could easily say that SoB power armour is just a scaled-down version of SM power armour, and offers the same protection due to the materials it's made of.

Besides, Marines are themselves insanely bulky...

You sure cuz I wore that IBA all the way through premobe and as soon as I got the IOTV it was so much lighter, the side plate are built in to the IOTV and so is the neck and yoke guard.

He said the LARGEST Improved Outer Tactical Vest was heavier. That is, basically the heaviest variant of the IOTV.

The medium IOTV weighs 3.6 pounds less than the medium OTV.

Ok got it, mybad I wear a medium vest I didnt even think about the larger ones

Black_Templars97 wrote:Ok got it, mybad I wear a medium vest I didnt even think about the larger ones

No prob. I'm 6'4", 260lbs so the opposite applies when I'm thinking about sizes of stuff.

OT and on a side note, the IOTV seems to be better balanced so the weight doesn't feel as bad.

Yea well shoot I tried to make an example and failed, but for what its worth I do play sisters with my black templars and when they are fighting togeather they dont seem to diffrent they just look like a bunch of angry monks and nuns in power armour

Black_Templars97 wrote:Yea well shoot I tried to make an example and failed, but for what its worth I do play sisters with my black templars and when they are fighting togeather they dont seem to diffrent they just look like a bunch of angry monks and nuns in power armour

Well, celibacy will do that to you.

Indeed good sir.... hey you dont think that celibacy between the 2, makes them fight harder do you lmao gives them the ability to get the Black Rage

I thought they were maed of the same material.



Automatically Appended Next Post:


Thing is, the armour doesn't have to be the same size for it to give the same protection. Therefore you could easily say that SoB power armour is just a scaled-down version of SM power armour, and offers the same protection due to the materials it's made of.

The Sororitas don't have vows of celibacy, which probably drives the Black Templar that more frothing mad.

That depends on the Order in specific. Some are bound to be far more stringent.

Reproduction is not a sin in the Imperium, however. Nor is homosexuality, either (most people just look the other way when relationships like that happens).

Remember, equal opportunity oppressor.

Well, considering even the "liberal" Orders are usually too full of righteous indignation and furious anger (i.e. piss and vinegar) to bother with that sort of thing, I doubt it comes up that often.

That depends. I can imagine a Canoness preaching humble service to the Emperor-- in fact, I think that's what they should be preaching in their best times. Pride comes before a fall, and all of that. The Sisters need to be humble, so that they might watch the Ecclesiarchy and find the corruption within.

So would we all agree that sisters do indeed get thier 3+ save.

Of course they GET their 3+ save... this thread is about the looks.

You can't really tell what material SOB power armor appears to be made of or how it varies when compared to Marine power armor. From a look stand point marine armor is bulky because marines are bulky. So that bulkiness can't be the sole basis. There can also be a number of other explanations for bulkiness such as marine armor being 100% pressurized while SOB armor only provides full pressurization and resporation to the head with the remainder of armor relatively unsealed.

In Inquisitor (54mm) there were a number of ways different power armor was differentiated. Marine armor had different additional layers of abblative armor added to protect against different specialized weapons, while more basic armor worn by inquisitors didn't. This I imagine is much the same with SOB armor. They have more basic power armor.

There are also three components to what makes power armor a suit of "power armor" in the 40k universe. First it is a suit of heavy plates, second is an exoskeletol suit that supplements the wearers strength and supports the plates, third is a low level energy field that is channeled through the ceri-metal plates.

The protection of the armor relies on the first and last and could likely vary weight and protection based on the dependence of the two. The support frame of the armor can also vary the size and load, if the frame is designed only to support the suit as opposed to surpassing the average users strength to supplement it, that would impact bulk.

The next reason why there is a difference is scale. With heroic scale different proportions are accentuated differently for male and female models. The artwork is largely guided by the miniatures such that if a true scale were used SOB could veyr well appear bulkier.

The final reason I see that there can be such a large difference in how "power armor" is represented is the numerical scale 40K uses. The armor scale from 2 to 5. In Inquisitor (54mm), the more detailed rules which generally run by percentile (1-100), place almost a 20 point gap between the most basic power armor and marine power armor. So in 40k a very broad deffinition is being used to apply the armor save.

aka_mythos wrote:In Inquisitor (54mm) there were a number of ways different power armor was differentiated. Marine armor had different additional layers of abblative armor added to protect against different specialized weapons, while more basic armor worn by inquisitors didn't. This I imagine is much the same with SOB armor. They have more basic power armor.

Nope, that's quite wrong. It's canon that Sisters armor provides the same protection as Astartes armor.

Whether that makes sense or not, it is canon.

what does the rpg say about the armor since i'm guessing they have a bit more variation than the 5 classes in 40k? and melissia, the inquisitor game is just as canon as 40k and the officially licensed rpg. there is no one source of "canon".

warboss: C:WH specifically says "[Sororitas Power Armor] provides the same degree of protection as Astartes power armor" on page 19 of the codex in fact. That is a very clear-cut and unambiguous statement. Inquisitor may be canon, but even as much as a I respect Inquisitor and Dark Heresy as fluff sources (I even appreciate DoW2 as a canon source in a sense, noting that it varies from standard deployments for the sake of gameplay), I'll still take information in a codex as generally a bit more accurate because they were released directly by GW rather than licensed.

Its true it does say it in the WH bible

jake wrote:Why are we using Marine armor as the standard for 3+? Lets use a crisis suit instead. It's obviously bigger and bulkier, so must represent the top of the 3+ range. Hell, next to a crisis suit, space marine armor maybe looks like it grants a 4+. Maybe.

I've edited some comments to illustrate my point:

"While the Space Marines look beautiful, the armour does not match the fluff. It roughly looks equivalent to Banshee or Fire Warrior armor. Due to this I voted 4+."

"I think it looks like they would get a 4+ save. The armor looks just a tad lighter than a Crisis Suit, plus the fact that marines are not wearing mechanized battle suits that are able to take as much punishment as Crisis Suit."

"I have a really tough time understanding how anyone can think the Marine armor, which is very obviously much smaller than a Crisis suit, confers the same bonuses. The tau look like they're slogging along in a dumpster."

"Anywho, I'm in the camp with them looking like 4+ but being 3+ because there'd be no point in playing them if they were 4+. "

"4+: it's noticeably lighter and less protection than a Crisis suit"

"I voted 4+, simply because it just doesn't look as bulky to me as a Crisis Suit does"

"They are covered in armor but are physically incapable of wearing the layers of protection. If Crisis Suit armor was so light that marines could wear an equivalent, then everyone in the 40K universe should be 3+. "

"Now does their armour look like it grants 3+ Sv? Honestly, not really. Crisis suits grants3+ saves because of the thick plating and the shape of the armour which is designed to deflect projectiles not just to stop them. If you look at Marine armour, we see that the plating isn't clearly as thick"


Hmm...

i will tell you why they all have the same save in fluff terms.


Crisis suit armor is made out of composite alloys and reactive armor plates and is incredibily thick. the suits pilot is in a fetal position inside the torso protected by at least 8 inches of the armor. it is not anywhere close to the hardness of Ceramite and Adamantium, but the thickness of the armor makes it roughely equal.


Sister and marine armor has roughly the same amount of Ceramite and adamantium. therefore a 3+ save. Marine armor is bulkier because marines are bulkier AND the suits have extra life support systems.

It is not whether they are made of the same material. It is the visual aesthetics and fluff not matching.

I can have a kevelar vest that is 3" thick or one that is 1" thick. If all other things are equal the thinner vest will not afford the same level of protection as the thicker one.

Sisters Power armor is obviously lighter and thinner than SM Power armour yet the game doesn't reflect this.

No one is trying to take away the Sisters 3+ save. We are asking that GW puts some love and thought into the next sculpts and model designs.

My work puts me around Full Plate Armour constantly. Experience tells me that, while the sister models are pretty, the armour itself would either be cloth or the sisters would all have to be anorexic elves in order to fit the scale of the current models.

Heh, I just had the mental flash of GW being sued for promoting unrealistic body images to girls.

focusedfire wrote:Sisters Power armor is obviously lighter and thinner than SM Power armour yet the game doesn't reflect this.

No, it quite simply is not. No matter how much I generally dislike C:WH, it's still canon, and it still says that Sororitas Power Armor provides the same protection as Astartes power armor.

Therefor it does. It might not look like it, but it still does. It may make no logical sense, but it still does.


Also, the reason Sisters armor would weigh less is because Sisters themselves are smaller and not as muscle-bound as Astartes to begin with. What with lacking three feet in height compared to Astartes and all that.


I agree that it needs to be re-worked to look better, but I will still point out that anyone who wants to argue that Sisters armor doesn't protect as well is wrong, and I love to be contrary and also right.

Well I did say somthing in this post awhile back that says maybe the armour save just dosnt account for the armour but other factors. like mobility and camo or other things because if every one thinks the sisters are not looking right then the vindicare assassin should look like a kasrkin with all the armour plates and stuff.

Luke_Prowler wrote:You've got to remember that Space marine armor is bulky because space marines themselves are bulky. Power armor used by normal humans is much smaller compared to the walking refrigerators

Space Marines aren't bulkier in their shoulders and knees and shins to fill out that armor. Unless they are absurdly malformed Chaos-weirdos. You can look at the shoulder plates and see how thick the armor is.

focusedfire wrote:

No one is trying to take away the Sisters 3+ save. We are asking that GW puts some love and thought into the next sculpts and model designsD

I rather like the sisters models. and I think they are some of GW's coolest models, and have aged rather well.

That being said I think if GW follows the trend it has been on of adding copious amounts of "bling", iconography, wings, halos, ornamentation and sundry other OTT detailing that new SOB models could be the coolest and most detailed GW models to date.

Notice I said "could" be. That assumes GW ever commits to giving the SOB the attention (and codex) their cool concept deserves.

If I was a betting man I'd wager that the SOB will NOT get new models as a whole, and a plastic multi-pose kit is but a pipe dream.

In fact a safer bet would be that they will be "squatted".

I hope I'm wrong...

And Sisters shoulderplates are oversized, too, just in a different manner.

assemble a marine model, but leave the pauldrons off.

he will have fairly normal proportions.

Melissia wrote:Nope, that's quite wrong. It's canon that Sisters armor provides the same protection as Astartes armor. Whether that makes sense or not, it is canon.

In 40k there is no real canon every edition has changed fluff that preceeded it. I have most books since Rogue Trader and the number of stories that have changed over the years can't be counted.

Inquisitor the 54mm game was made by GW. Dark Heresy the RPG was made by GW as well. They just let another company publish it rather than let it die. Both say there are differences in power armor and that is reasonable. I'd say if anything those two fluff driven books intended for older audience would be more reasonably realistic and cannon than a single sentence in a codex for a game that is much less detail oriented.

Melissia wrote:warboss: C:WH specifically says "[Sororitas Power Armor] provides the same degree of protection as Astartes power armor" on page 19 of the codex in fact. That is a very clear-cut and unambiguous statement. Inquisitor may be canon, but even as much as a I respect Inquisitor and Dark Heresy as fluff sources (I even appreciate DoW2 as a canon source in a sense, noting that it varies from standard deployments for the sake of gameplay), I'll still take information in a codex as generally a bit more accurate because they were released directly by GW rather than licensed.

It may say that "it provides the same degree of protection" but that isn't clear cut. You are reading into it what you want. There is no context and the degree to which the statement is correct is broad. For example an armored humvee door may provide the same level of protection as the best bullet proof vest against rifles, but in the context of fragmentary grenades its not necessarily the case. In Inquisitor the way power armor was dealt with was Marine power armor offered the same level of protection as SoB armor, but that the head, shoulders, and torso had an ablative plate that boosted that protection for the first hit, after which that portion of the body was only protected by the basic power amor. The difference between marine armor SoB armor is the equivalent of stacking some sand bags on a tank, nothing so significant as to say SoB isn't generally as protected as a Marine.

There are other possibilities that keeps the SoB codex statement true and are just as valid. For example some area of SoB armor might be reinforced while other are reduced in weight and protection. Overall they'd both be equally protective but in the details of it different.

It is 100% clear there are differences between SoB and Marine power armor. I gave many reasons for why they could reasonably be different. Only one of them this is fuzzy. But each can stand on its own as justification enough. All of which agree with the notion that SoB armor is "power armor" and warrants 3+ saves.

CT GAMER wrote:I rather like the sisters models. and I think they are some of GW's coolest models, and have aged rather well.

I do, too-- except for the chest/abdomen region, which does not fit with the rest of the armor and is ugly to boot.

CT GAMER wrote:In fact a safer bet would be that they will be "squatted".

No, that is not really a safe bet. Jervis Johnson has repeatedly gone on record saying that Sisters will be getting their own codex, focusing on them . It might have some Inquisitorial bits in it, but it will focus on the Sisters first and foremost. Just like the Grey Knights codex.

You are reading into it what you want.

And somehow you aren't? You don't want the armor to provide the same amount of protection, and therefor that is what you read into the sentence apparently? Because I can apply this logic to your own post if you really want to insist on using it.

Well maybe if we cut the heads of the sister models and put them on space marines then they would have the armour save of 3.... they would also have enough armour to cover up any womanly parts, so no more I heart boobie post will show up any more, then every one will have to agree on that they will look like they have armour save of 3...... right?

Melissia wrote:
No, that is not really a safe bet. Jervis Johnson has repeatedly gone on record saying that Sisters will be getting their own codex, focusing on them . It might have some Inquisitorial bits in it, but it will focus on the Sisters first and foremost. Just like the Grey Knights codex.

And GW would never lie to save their bottom line, would they?

I have 4 words for you, "It's not Space Hulk."

focusedfire wrote:It is not whether they are made of the same material. It is the visual aesthetics and fluff not matching.

I can have a kevelar vest that is 3" thick or one that is 1" thick. If all other things are equal the thinner vest will not afford the same level of protection as the thicker one.

Sisters Power armor is obviously lighter and thinner than SM Power armour yet the game doesn't reflect this.

No one is trying to take away the Sisters 3+ save. We are asking that GW puts some love and thought into the next sculpts and model designs.

My work puts me around Full Plate Armour constantly. Experience tells me that, while the sister models are pretty, the armour itself would either be cloth or the sisters would all have to be anorexic elves in order to fit the scale of the current models.

Heh, I just had the mental flash of GW being sued for promoting unrealistic body images to girls.

Finally someone that is sticking to the point of this thread.
We're are meant to be discussing if the LOOK of sisters in fact reflect their 3+ Sv.
So far most of the discussion seems to revolve around the assumption that SoB should lose their +3 Sv, which is not what the OP intended.

Also, SM armour is not only bulkier than SoB armour because the SM themselves are physically bulkier, but also because marine armour has extra components to increase the protection of the user.
SM have had millennia to perfect their armour, while SoB had much less time.
There's plenty of information on this explaining how the PA have evolved. From simply adding extra plating to protect cables to the insertion of re-breathers and gyrostabilisers. Also the design has suffered minor alterations so its shape deflects projectiles rather than stop them (that's why marine armour is so curved) and as it was said by melissia on another thread SoB armour fails in doing this because of the cups, which instead of deflecting bullets away from the sister they funnel the bullets into the chest putting much more strain into the chest plate to stop the bullet.

Again, I feel that this discussion has been going the wrong way the problem isn't SoB having 3+ Sv. but how that protection is represented on the models.

As a sidenote, one should never compare PA with tau armour, the technology is completely different. Saying that Tau should have better saves than marines because their crisis suits cover their whole body is the same as saying that a medieval knight in full plate armour has better save than a guardsmen when any weapon in the 40k universe would pierce plate like it would a piece of paper.

agnosto wrote:And GW would never lie to save their bottom line, would they?

Sure they could lie, but there's far less reason to believe they would. One of the main reasons that Sisters haven't sold well in recent years (in fact, the primary reasons why people say they don't buy Sisters despite being interested) is their price and their all-metal range, which are rather linked. GW could make more profit from making a Sisters codex with plastics than from getting rid of it.

Grey Templar wrote:assemble a marine model, but leave the pauldrons off.

he will have fairly normal proportions.

No he won't. All modern GW figures have grossly distorted proportions. (I'm not including Sisters here because I am not familiar with them.)

Marines are even more grossly distorted by the shape of their armour.

Compare a GW figure with a Tamiya 1/35 scale figure to get an idea of just how distorted the GW figures are.

Melissia wrote:

agnosto wrote:And GW would never lie to save their bottom line, would they?

Sure they could lie, but there's far less reason to believe they would. One of the main reasons that Sisters haven't sold well in recent years (in fact, the primary reasons why people say they don't buy Sisters despite being interested) is their price and their all-metal range, which are rather linked. GW could make more profit from making a Sisters codex with plastics than from getting rid of it.

Indeed, I play Chaos Space Marines, and I would buy some sisters to convert and incorperate into my army. Probably buy only one or two boxes of them, and scatter them throught the units.

Edit: if they were plastic, I mean.

Melissia wrote:

You are reading into it what you want.

And somehow you aren't? You don't want the armor to provide the same amount of protection, and therefor that is what you read into the sentence apparently? Because I can apply this logic to your own post if you really want to insist on using it.

You don't understand what my statement even means. I'm making a statement based on a quantitative difference, yours is based on a qualitative quotation. Reading into numbers is empirical, reading into broad statements is subjective.

In logic terms, I am saying: 1+3=4 and 2+2=4. Or A+C=D and B+B=D.

What your absolutist quote is insisting upon is that if A+C=D and B+B=D then A=B and C=B.

Since there is more written that they are differences and since there are visible differences, its is clear not all terms are always equal.

I am saying that something can effectively be equivalent without being identically equivalent. It is a fact that Marine armor and SoB armor are different. That those differences are only significant in a more detailed system, but that those differences are otherwise insignificant.

You have to ignore a lot more to assume they're 100% identical than to simply accept that they're effectively equivalent.

With an understanding that they are only effectively equivalent you can open to the possibility, that like real life, there are different ways of accomplishing similar results. That those different methodologies manifest themselves through technology in different ways, altering appearance, but accomplishing a goal. For example a good number of countries build tanks to similar specification, yet their sizes, weight, and armor thickness vary.

What is described about power armor is that it derives its resistance to damage through two means: the inherent material properties of the armor plates and a low level energy field through the plates. Whether that low level energy field is like a force field or 40k technology taking advantage of the real world properties of certain ceramic metal alloy of becoming harder when an electric charge is applied to them, the total level of protection afforded by power armor could be approached in different ways.

If we were to assume that there is no difference of any kind between SoB armor and Marine armor, we are forced to assume that SoB are using superior technology that allows them to produce and use lighter thinner armor. So for the sake of consistency within the 40k universe you have to assume some difference in approaches used to manufacture each. For example, maybe SoB relies more on the energy field, while SM armor relies more on the bulk of the armor; where SoB want something lighter and SM want something that supplements strength and thus cannot devote as much power to the energy field.

I will say this one more time...

They are all designed to look cool.

The armor is not real.

They are made to look cool to sell.

The armor is not real.

You cannot debate whether a fictional item would provide different types of fictional protection.

The armor is not real.

But the 4+ is...

*scratches head* This is still going?

Guys, let's just break it down into simple terms here, because we're all going to go nuts otherwise.

The game only allows for a small variation in armor saves, yet covers a huge range of various styles, types, and methods of granting that save. Therefore, GW needs to make certain allowances:

A 3+ save is usually handed out to troops that have superior armor than the norm: again, generalizations abound as this save covers a wide variety of armors: Crisis suits, necrons, tyranid MCs, and power armor of all kinds. This is what is determined by the game designers, and has become a cornerstone for much of the development. You will notice that effectively all who have this are considered "elite" troops to some extent, which the Sisters definitely fit under.

I think we're also looking at this the wrong way. Yes, a sister looks far less armored than a marine. She also looks more armored and bulky than a stormtrooper, and is certainly lugging around larger weapons. Again, this is simply because they have a very, very limited range on which to give armor saves, and while it's clear that Sister's power armor might not be up to the same level as Marine armor, it is vastly superior than anything given out to the Imperial Guard.

Inquisitor and Dark Heresy both show this difference far better, with Marine armor being almost ridiculous in the protection it offers compared to normal power armor, which is nearly invulnerable to most small arms fire... something carapace armor can come close to but not quite achieve. However both systems allow for a far more detailed equipment system with a larger variety of statistics.

So this simply breaks down to a case of the Sister's armor looking (and being) stronger than the carapace of the IG, rather than not measuring up to the armor of the Space Marines (which is another discussion entirely). To complain that the normal sized, human woman's armor looks lighter than the 7 foot tall, 300 pound genetically enhanced super-soldier's is bordering on inane. He could be wearing an aluminum pot over his body and you could make the same argument, but that doesn't mean that the pot is going to be effective, it's just big.

It IS clear, to me, that they provide identical protection. Mind you, I believe that C:WH overrides Inquisitor, when they say they provide the same protection-- aka_mythos' argument (though quite well worded, far more eloquently than my own I should note) effectively amounts to, to me, the logical equivalent of saying that X ≠ X (or X != X for those of you that prefer it in coding). When an armor is stated to provide the same protection, then it does, and one can interpret those words to argue otherwise, but I don't buy it...

Nightsbane wrote:I will say this one more time...

They are all designed to look cool.

The armor is not real.

They are made to look cool to sell.

The armor is not real.

You cannot debate whether a fictional item would provide different types of fictional protection.

The armor is not real.

I know.

I covered the "aesthetic" interpretation in my earlier post. I'm not trying to debate different degrees of protection. Previous to the above, I layout a multi-faceted explanation to address look for those concerned with aesthetic, the broad application of saves to those concerned with rules, the explanation based on descriptions of power armor to address those concerned with fluff, and an engineering based explanation based on fluff for those concerned with reality.

I don't hold any one to a higher esteem, I'm just painting a picture that shows all sides of the interpretation to better allow a person to buy into a suspension of disbelief to enjoy the fantasy. Different people stand on different pillars to attain that, so showing reasonable degree of consistency across those pillars covers more bases and provide reasonable explanation to as many different people possible.

By the way, I commend you on your arguing. I'm just too stubborn on certain issues

Melissia wrote:It IS clear, to me, that they provide identical protection. Mind you, I believe that C:WH overrides Inquisitor, when they say they provide the same protection-- aka_mythos' argument (though quite well worded, far more eloquently than my own I should note) effectively amounts to, to me, the logical equivalent of saying that X ≠ X (or X != X for those of you that prefer it in coding). When an armor is stated to provide the same protection, then it does, and one can interpret those words to argue otherwise, but I don't buy it...

Identical in quantity and identical in quality are different sides of the same idea but are not mutually exclusive. My point has been that the extent of protection is the same, justifiable as 3+ in all cases (X=X), but that the methodology of accomplishing that level of protection can still vary while keeping your quotation true. "X" can be accomplished in a variety of ways; the "same level of protection" is not to the exclusion of the way that level of protection is achieved. Its just like cooking recipes that give you different ways of making the "same" thing.

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:[snip]

A bad translation in the German codex does not make for fluff. The fact remains that the Repentia do not have the Adepta Sororitas special rule. Furthermore, here's something straight out of C:WH about the Repentia:

These sisters become outcasts seeking death in the heat of battle

Hold on, if your argument is that repentia aren't sisters then you just contradicted yourself with the very first two words of your example.

And people say no one cares about Sisters Of Battle.....


P.S. - I do in fact love boobies, be they on mini's or in real life.

I think Sisters of Battle just need to have decent chest and abdomen armour and they'd look the part better.

However, I also think that all Sisters of Battle should be covered in tons of parchment, purity seals, books and candles as standard, and they should all be ripped and look pissed off, no exceptions. Then again, I think that Sisters should look as psychotic and genocidal as act. And after that's done, they can resculpt all the Slaanesh models and thus there would be a range of psycho woman and a range of sexy woman and the balance would be set right once and for all.

Melissia wrote:By the way, I commend you on your arguing. I'm just too stubborn on certain issues

The quotation is "same degree" of protection - not the "same" but "same degree"

In the context of the WH:Codex, same degree means "on a scale of 2+ to 6+" - so the same degree of protection IS a 3+ - there is no 3.1+ that can be represented.

Inquisitor, a more detailed system, shows that the same degree on a 6 point scale is not the same on a 100 point scale. AS you would expect - the statement is not "it provides exactly the same protection in every way", after all.


Thus, the two sources of canon ARE identical, once you include the context.

aka_mythos wrote:

Melissia wrote:It IS clear, to me, that they provide identical protection. Mind you, I believe that C:WH overrides Inquisitor, when they say they provide the same protection-- aka_mythos' argument (though quite well worded, far more eloquently than my own I should note) effectively amounts to, to me, the logical equivalent of saying that X ≠ X (or X != X for those of you that prefer it in coding). When an armor is stated to provide the same protection, then it does, and one can interpret those words to argue otherwise, but I don't buy it...

Identical in quantity and identical in quality are different sides of the same idea but are not mutually exclusive. My point has been that the extent of protection is the same, justifiable as 3+ in all cases (X=X), but that the methodology of accomplishing that level of protection can still vary while keeping your quotation true. "X" can be accomplished in a variety of ways; the "same level of protection" is not to the exclusion of the way that level of protection is achieved. Its just like cooking recipes that give you different ways of making the "same" thing.

True enough, for example, if we are talking about Alpha Radiation, why wearing all those suits provide just as much armor as does a toilet paper wrapped kid dressed as a mummy for halloween...or a piece of paper...or a few inches of air... seeing as how alpha radiation can be stopped by pretty much ANYTHING between it and its target, hard to quantify "as much protection" without whats needing to be protected from. I for one, have no problem walking up to some Alpha radiation holding a large flattened cardboard box in front of me though I doubt it would stop a bullet or a crazy hopped up heretics blade from severing my spinal cord, unless half way through his swing I remind him I have a 3+ armor save because my cardboard acts like space marine armor against alpha radiation.. but then again, i don't think he'd care much

SoB armour looks like a 4+ but plays as a 3+ so, no problems.

compared to Astartes armour then it stars looking flimsy until you realise that the guys inside of are genetically adapted freaks, 7ft + giants who you would expect to have suitable armour which protects them and enhances their movement and already exaggerated strength.

Sisters are not superhumans and according to the imperium have no need of the bulky neuro fibres and muscle sheaves to augment sisters movements nor do they require extra medical support in the form of drugs and food supplies which Astartes require.

SoB suits are built, most likely using the same ceramite as Astartes armour, to protect the wearer not to provide long term accomodation in the field.