Moved from another thread, so it doesn't get dragged off topic.

Melissia wrote:Don't mind me. I just tend to react poorly to Marine fanboys saying "my faction can do everything better than everyone else". No, they can't

Arbites spend their entire lives investigating and rooting out criminals and cultists, it's their job. They aren't warriors per se, though they can certain put up a damned good fight as far as humans go; rather, what they are is a combination of the FBI, CSI, and Judge Dredd. Which is probably part of the reason why I like them, as Judge Dredd is awesome (Despite the movie's attempt at ruining him).

Marines spend their entire time training for battle, or actually in battle. In the arena of battle, with their quick decapitating strikes, it can be argued that they have very few peers. Though I would argue that the Guard is much better at a stand up fight, if only because they don't care about casualties, whereas the loss of ten Marines is a pretty big loss to the chapter in comparison to the loss of a few thousand Guardsmen.

The smart authors know this and depict Marines doing what they do best, dropping in on an important location, killing everything that moves, and then leaving for the next objective before a reprisal can be launched. The gakky ones depict them doing other things which they want to claim is heroic, but doesn't really make sense, like half a squad trying to hold the line against a few thousand Orks. Which really should end up with a lot of dead Orks, this is true, but no surviving Marines. Orks are not pushovers.

Okay, sorry. Done ranting.

Grey Templar wrote:Espionage doesn't mean hiding in plain sight.


marines have senses bordering on Animalistic. if they can find a place they won't be visable then they can do it.

they can hear very well, they could eavesdrop on a conversation and be accross the street.

Not all Subtrafuge missions will be in populated areas. they will scout things out if there arn't any scout squads avaliable.


there are Humans in some portions of the Galaxy that do reach Astasrtes size. in the Ravenor omnibus there are people who are from a certain planet who reach the same height as a Space Marine, and thats just the women.

Yes, but those are a tiny minority of the Imperium's population I would reckon. Marines, after all, are supposed to be massive compared to humans, with vastly improved musculature and bone structure.

And anything Marines can do in the espionage field, Arbites can probably do better; that's what they're trained to do, every day of their lives, including artificially extended lives in the case of higher ranking and more famous Arbites. They hone their talents to preternatural levels because if they didn't the Imperium would fall apart under the weight of its own corruption from within. Investigation, interrogation, undercover work, gathering connections and informants, infiltrating cults and gangs, and so on are just what the Arbites do, and overall they do it best out of the various human factions. Including the Astartes.

If a 12 foot tall Tyranid monstrosity with six arms and feeder tendrils and massive scything talons can infiltrate human cities and military bases (done many times in the stories in Codex: Tyranids) I imagine an 8 foot tall Space Marine that at least looks humanish could manage it. Being big doesn't mean they're bad at moving quietly.

The Alpha Legion's entire premise and claim to uniqueness is that they're stealth and infiltration experts who use their many cult networks to go where a Space Marine might get noticed. Or they just pretend to be loyalists.

I mean hate the fluff if you want but it still exists, Alpha Legion marines are shown to be incredibly skilled stealth specialists in not just Black Library books but throughout the Chaos Space Marine codices.

I can't think of a Loyalist Chapter that has stealth experts though, most of them seem to think it would be dishonourable or some crap about being "Not being a subtle instrument of the Emperor".

Not saying they're better at stealth than any other stealth specialist, but there are certainly Marines in existence dedicated to it.

Yes, some fluff is idiotic and poorly written, isn't it?

Supposedly, the Raven Guard are stealth experts (or at least, that's what someone told me *shrug*). But this isn't about stealth, it's about espionage, which is more than just sneaking around.

Space marines also can live for hundreds of years- that much experience could make them more diverse than just guys with bolters.

Espionage, is a broad endeavor that doesnt always require infiltration amongst an indigenous population.

Arbites, and Inquisitors(and some henchmen) would be more suited for the infiltration and investigation side of it. Whereas a SM could be more adept at military surveillance and observation especially since they have heightened senses compared to a unaugmented human.

Melissia wrote:Yes, some fluff is idiotic and poorly written, isn't it?

Supposedly, the Raven Guard are stealth experts. But this isn't about stealth, it's about espionage, which is more than just sneaking around.

Like I say, hate the fluff if you want

I won't comment on how much sense it makes. A lot of stuff in 40k makes less than total sense.

As for specifically SPYING and mixing in with populations (if I'm getting what you mean by espionage correctly). The Imperium already has institutions much better suited for spying than Space Marines. And Chaos Marines either have cult networks or can ask their great pal Lord Tzeentch to show them a vision of what they want to know. So you have a point.

Space Marine talents are a bit misapplied on spying, but on the battlefield or when they need to infiltrate a position or assassinate someone they've been shown to be willing and capable.

Oh yes, in those very limited (and much less common) situations, they're certainly capable. But then the Inquisition has other tools that are even better than Marines at doing those, such as assassins and the Ordo Assassinorum operatives.

Melissia wrote:Oh yes, in those very limited (and much less common) situations, they're certainly capable. But then the Inquisition has other tools that are even better than Marines at doing those, such as assassins and the Ordo Assassinorum operatives.

Yeah I'll agree to that.

Honestly what I see the Alpha Legion fluff is there's not very many of them so it's not like there's a bunch of Alpha Legion SPACE MARINE operatives infiltrating a population or organization.

More like one, single, Alpha Legion Marine might run an entire cult network of spies and saboteurs on a planet made up of normal humans. From a hidden headquarters where he won't exactly be out and about going, 'Hey dudes I'm a loyalist Marine trust me'.

That's what the Alpha Legion's Hydra symbol is for. All their Marines are trained to operate without a central command structure so when one 'head' is cut off the others carry on with no loss of purpose. So they're a diffuse organization. Not so much doing the espionage themselves and getting their hands dirty but acting as spymasters and running cult networks to weaken the Imperium from within. They're very... odd for Space Marines. They don't actually do much fighting to this day.

Melissia wrote:Yes, some fluff is idiotic and poorly written, isn't it?

Supposedly, the Raven Guard are stealth experts (or at least, that's what someone told me *shrug*). But this isn't about stealth, it's about espionage, which is more than just sneaking around.

Raven Guard are insurgency experts, specializing more in stealth and hit and run than the average Astartes Chapters.

Their Scout Company consists, much like the Dark Angels and their Successors, of a larger than average amount of full Battle-Brothers who have foregone full on Tactical/Assault squads to operate as intelligence assets for the Raven Guard.

IA8 details the activity of one of their Scout teams pretty interestingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for the Alpha Legion...nobody really knows what they're up to.

Their strikes never really seem to do too much damage, and always seem to be more aimed towards weakening the populace--but giving a chance for the populace to bounce back with a more fervent belief in the Imperium of Man than before.

S.T.E.A.L.T.H B.O.M.B.E.R. Nuff Said.

(BTW the point I am making is that said aircraft is much bigger than a SM, and is used in Espionage.)

Actually, the B-2 "Spirit" isn't used in "espionage".

It's a bomber. You don't "bomb" a target with cameras.

You're thinking of this:

Kanluwen wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, for the Alpha Legion...nobody really knows what they're up to.

Their strikes never really seem to do too much damage, and always seem to be more aimed towards weakening the populace--but giving a chance for the populace to bounce back with a more fervent belief in the Imperium of Man than before.

Let me get out my old 3rd edition codex.

The Alpha Legion was the last of the founding chapters and from its inception was determined to prove its worth relative to the older Legions. Their Primarch, Alpharius, perpetuated this rivalry and encouraged self-reliance, discipline and innovative tactics in his Legion. The Alpha Legion respected strength and despised the weak.

Although they joined the Heresy the Alpha Legion stayed seperate from the other traitor legions and fought its own campaign. Since the heresy they have remained independent, setting up their multitude of cult networks and pursuing seperate objectives.

Tactically the Alpha Legion believes in attacking from several different directions at once. This requires careful planning and skillful infiltration. Extensive use of corrupt spies and informants is made to weaken the enemy's resolve before any decisive move is made. Amongst the Traitor Legions the Alpha Legion makes the most extensive use of cultist troops and traitor Guard. As they tend to operate as raiders and infiltrators deep within the Imperium they need local support to bolster their numbers. Considerable effort is made to spread propaganda to incite revolt and sabotage. Once the Alpha Legion is committed to battle things tend to move very quickly as the Alpha Legion attaches great importance to its field commanders using their own initiative to outwit the enemy as this magnifies the advantage that Space Marines have over conventional troops.

Many Alpha Legion operations are planned to encourage and support cultist activity, Cultists are trained to be skilled combatants who combined stealth and espionage with close combat. The Alpha Legion may therefore make use of the Cultist army list entry below as a Troops Selection on the force organisation chart.

The Alpha Legion cannot normally rely on Daemons remaining stable long enough to be useful due to their distance from the Eye of Terror but when they have secured the belief of Chaos cults on a world they will gladly make use of Daemonic Incursions to add to the variety of their attacks.

Alpha Legionaires can only bear the Mark of Chaos Undivided and their Veterans are renowned across the galaxy for their infiltration skills.

good stuff there


i think that Melissa is right in that marines don't do infiltrating work, but she has a very narrow definition, not that thats bad mind you, of what Infiltrating is.


she says a Space marine isn't going to go and act as a Double agent acting in plain sight. and this is true.



a SM will however go and sit in the alley outside a window and use his superior hearing to listen in on a conversation.

or he will hid in some bushes and watch an enemy camp for a few hours gathering intellegence. this is what will happen most often.



it is mention many times in the fluff how quiet a marine can be when he wants to be. normal Humans are often unerved by the ability of something so massive to move so quickely and quietly.



if you are able to hear a pin drop on the otherside of a Courtyard then you will definitly be able to hear sounds from your own movements and can adjust them to become silent.

@Nitros:
Read "Legion" by Dan Abnett. It gives a fantastic insight into the reason why the Alpha Legion went "traitor".

I'd also say read about the Adeptus Custodes- they arnt space marines persay (in fact, they are regarded as slightly better - and that's without all the fancy equipment!) But they methods of investigation and information gathering second to none - for they guard the Immortal Emperor of Mankind himself...

One of the technologies they utilize is a 'concealment field'/'runes of concealment' to distort their size and appearance some what. Though the stories never go into how easy one of these fields might be to detect, because of the delicate nature involving the suspected activities of a leader of one of the Nations of Earth (Bound by treaty into the Emperors United Terra) who is suspected of passing information along to Horus during the heresy...

I'd suspect his own defenses against espionage would be pretty up to snuff

Grey Templar wrote:



a SM will however go and sit in the alley outside a window and use his superior hearing to listen in on a conversation.

or he will hid in some bushes and watch an enemy camp for a few hours gathering intellegence. this is what will happen most often.



it is mention many times in the fluff how quiet a marine can be when he wants to be. normal Humans are often unerved by the ability of something so massive to move so quickely and quietly.



if you are able to hear a pin drop on the otherside of a Courtyard then you will definitly be able to hear sounds from your own movements and can adjust them to become silent.

Indeed. Plus their ability to kill you, eat your brain and then absorb all your memories and knowledge of a location, passwords, numbers of troops etc etc is quite handy as well.

Power Armour. Is not. Silent. Scouts are more believable. Not an Astartes.

(BTW the point I am making is that said aircraft is much bigger than a SM, and is used in Espionage.)

*facepalm* Fail is just...Fail. It really is.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Power Armour. Is not. Silent.

Normally, it can be silent, The Ravenguard especially excel in this regard --cf "Chapter's Due".

Grey Templar wrote:good stuff there


i think that Melissa is right in that marines don't do infiltrating work, but she has a very narrow definition, not that thats bad mind you, of what Infiltrating is.


she says a Space marine isn't going to go and act as a Double agent acting in plain sight. and this is true.



a SM will however go and sit in the alley outside a window and use his superior hearing to listen in on a conversation.

or he will hid in some bushes and watch an enemy camp for a few hours gathering intellegence. this is what will happen most often.



it is mention many times in the fluff how quiet a marine can be when he wants to be. normal Humans are often unerved by the ability of something so massive to move so quickely and quietly.

EDIT: (Disclaimer: I'm far from an expert on fluff, most of what I know comes from a few a Codices and reading the DH books. So what's here are just my impressions based my admittedly limited understanding of the imperium)

if you are able to hear a pin drop on the otherside of a Courtyard then you will definitly be able to hear sounds from your own movements and can adjust them to become silent.

I'm not quite sure I buy this. The Imperium probably isn't about to throw any resources at petty criminals, much less Space Marine level resources and they strike me as the only sort who do things openly enough that simple observation would be effective.

The Imperium isn't exactly friendly or lenient place. If you're doing anything that might even close to earning the attention of the higher-ups you're careful, paranoid, skillful, intelligent and have access to tremendous resources. If not you would have wound up as IG rations long before you got deep enough into anything to draw that kind of heat. You're certainly not doing things in any fashion that having a listen by a courtyard window would reveal any meaningful information. You're deep underground (figuratively, if not literally), well protected by barriers both physical and political. If you're behind a heresy that involves ten million people only about 10 of them have ever seen you and of them you vaporized 5 on the spot, of the remaining 5 only 3 even understood the secret code you were miming in.

If you're important enough that the Space Marines would potentially be sent in to deal with you, you're buried so far down that it's really going to take several hundred operatives digging deep into the organization for years to get at you. If you're important enough that Space Marines would potentially be sent in to deal with you, and you're not... they just send in the Space Marines to deal with you the old fashion way.

Chongara is 100% right why waste ultimate weapon on petty criminals its a waste of the immortal emprahs gift!

Plus it seems that some people are arguing about two different types of surveillance which are battlefield surveillance and surveillance on the civilian population as if being able to do one means you can do the other.

This topic is giving me this humorous picture of an 8ft Super human in power armour sat on a park bench with a brief case asking passers by "Do you have the Dossier?"....

reds8n wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Power Armour. Is not. Silent.

Normally, it can be silent, The Ravenguard especially excel in this regard --cf "Chapter's Due".

There is "able to mobilise a force/battalion/squad without alerting the enemy of your actions" silent, and there is "Freaking Giant Ninja Breaking through walls with mufflers" silent. That said I haven't read the book, so do the Ravenguard actually do in Chapter's Due?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
^
what. I missed a what in that sentence.

They are shown to be quite capable of moving up to engage astartes and/or scouts unheard and even infiltrate their way into the "Black Basilica" ( chaos Capitol Imperilius more or less). When they scout ahead of Ventris and his honour guard even they lose track of them and are unable to follow or see them.

I would also point out the special modifications made to the Alpha Legion armour in "Legion" which came equipped with all manner of counter surveilance and electronic baffles so they could simply walk through sensors and alarms without triggering them.

I think generally power armour is too noisy to be very stealthy, there are however still variants or knowledge in the galaxy that enables it to be more stealthy. Even if much of this is "lost" or not really understood.

Hmm a Space marine Chapter has 1000 marines.... You really think that any chapter is going to send in a few marines to act like James Bond?
Especially since there are Arbites and Inquisitor that are actually trained for that mission?
Hmm or send a squad into a system governors palace to assassinate him for heresy when there are Assassinorum operatives specifically trained to do just that and make it look like a natural death?

Space Marines MAY be capable of some of this but they are a much more blunt instrument.
They fulfill the role of hammer to the Guards anvil.
Arbites are a knife and assassins are a scalpel.

Each tool of the Imperium has its uses and jobs. You don't use a hammer in place of a scalpel.

helgrenze wrote:Hmm a Space marine Chapter has 1000 marines.... You really think that any chapter is going to send in a few marines to act like James Bond?

If they needed to, if other options weren't available to them.
Clearly this would vary from chapter to chapter -- don't see the Fleshtearers or Black Templars doing this but if they had to.. or worked closely with the Inquisition on a regular basis like the Red Scorpions do, then it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

Big universe etc etc


There's a short story where a White Scar marine is sent to infiltrate Huron's Corsairs in ...hmm... the "Into the Maelstrom" collection IIRC

There's covert movement and there's covert movement.

I can see an SM infiltrating a Chaos Cathedral (can of black spray paint and an economy bucket of spikes would help...)

I can't see an SM infiltrating the Inokashira Line express to Shibuya during the rush hour, and snooping on civil servants' reading matter over their shoulders.

helgrenze wrote:Each tool of the Imperium has its uses and jobs. You don't use a hammer in place of a scalpel.

We don't but the Imperium will....

Whilst I find it hard to imagine SMs mixing james Bond like with members of an enemy, I can see small groups (scouts) covertly observing and moving in to gain intelligence. Just like special forces do today.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:
Whilst I find it hard to imagine SMs mixing james Bond like with members of an enemy,.

Indeed. There's a wonderful scene in the Iron Snakes book when the marines are forced to attend a welcome/honorific drinks reception. Of course they don't do "small talk" and the like so they just stand there, immobile, in their armour like immense statues.

Greenmeany wrote:Chongara is 100% right why waste ultimate weapon on petty criminals its a waste of the immortal emprahs gift!

Plus it seems that some people are arguing about two different types of surveillance which are battlefield surveillance and surveillance on the civilian population as if being able to do one means you can do the other.

This topic is giving me this humorous picture of an 8ft Super human in power armour sat on a park bench with a brief case asking passers by "Do you have the Dossier?"....

Couldn't help myself.

****In hushed whisper he spoke****

"I was never here, we did not have this conversations..."

***and then he departed, as he had arrived, down the alleyway***

KLUNK-HISS, KLUNK-HISS, KLUNK-HISS *trashcan overturning and being stomped flat noise* KLUNK-HISS

Whilst you wouldn't use an axe to do the work of a scalpel it is pretty easy to be convinced that the axe is harmless.

People will believe what they are told and they will WANT to believe that there is no threat.

Without armour an Astartes would be able to walk around in plain sight. Bulk regardless a marine could be a mutant or a gene bulked servant or worker some kind of abhuman. (In old fluff catachans are slightly abhuman hence the distorted, muscular, arms - if these freaks can wonder around the galaxy I bet an over sized human could too).

The Astartes are not the tools to be used for espionage but don't get sidetracked into thinking that they are too abnormal be hidden in plain view (without blessed power armour and holy boltguns obviously)

You're assuming Catachans can wander around the Galaxy unmolested.

It is more likely that on different worlds the appearance of different bodyforms will be more or less accepted depending on local social norms.

Some worlds may well be so paranoid about mutation that even Catachans would be arrested. Other worlds -- particularly on the frontiers -- would be much more blase about unusual looking people.

Mr. Burning wrote:Whilst you wouldn't use an axe to do the work of a scalpel it is pretty easy to be convinced that the axe is harmless.

People will believe what they are told and they will WANT to believe that there is no threat.

Without armour an Astartes would be able to walk around in plain sight. Bulk regardless a marine could be a mutant or a gene bulked servant or worker some kind of abhuman. (In old fluff catachans are slightly abhuman hence the distorted, muscular, arms - if these freaks can wonder around the galaxy I bet an over sized human could too).

The Astartes are not the tools to be used for espionage but don't get sidetracked into thinking that they are too abnormal be hidden in plain view (without blessed power armour and holy boltguns obviously)

A simple servant or worker is going to have access to anything relevant in relation problem of the scale needed to bring in Asartes-level resources. You're looking for the (person behind the person, behind the person)*10^437 before you even get to the ignorant fool who was the assistant, to the assistant, to the assistant to the guy who drives the truck that delivers the needles to the place that sews the outfits for the guys who sew the outfits for the rank and file members of the cult. Never mind access to information or people that could do damage to the threat.

Anything smaller isn't worth Astartes-level resources (regardless of if those resources are actual Astartes or not). Anything that got to that threat level isn't going to just gloss over a well known variety of human killing machine in their ranks. Even if the Marine could "Pass" it's going to take years if not decades and a lot of luck for any agent to work their way to a meaningful level of access. Marines don't have that kind of time to sit around not killing the enemies of the emperor.

Marines are tools designed to kill, and they do their job very well. Certainly they're good enough at stealth and have great senses for when they need those things to get to killing properly. Battlefield Recon, sneaking behind enemy lines, etc... these are all things that make sense for marines to be doing since it directly relates to their purpose of killing things until they're dead, and then killing them again 4-5 times for good measure.

They aren't well suited to getting information from deep within any sort of organization and even if they were they just have tasks that require their more immediate attention. Those tasks likely including something like destroying the well-fortified, underground cultist stronghold somebody else spent years finding.

Could it be the main problem, that many people mix up "Espionage" and "Recon"?

Some Sm certainly will excell at RECON.. here everything said about animalistic instints, skill etc. etc. is true and sound.
But I too doubt that all but maybe some very rare and odd SM would suck at ESPIONAGE, because:

a) They indeed ARE frenking cyborg mutants, regardless how you word it and they will ALWAYS stand out from any normal crowd. Even if not for bulk or implants or missing social skills, then for being so damn awsome (according to the authors that REALLY are into the Sms).
And standing out is a big No GO for any spy. Thats why James Bond is bs (and would die within 5 minutes of being spotted by a totally unremarkable looking spook of the KGB) and thats why A SM Spy would be bs.

b) Espionage takes huge amounts of time. Creating connections, false identities, going under cover for months and years while getting closer to your target etc. etc.
I doubt that any SM chapter would assign one of their precious Battle Brothers in this way as long as there are any other viable options.
Plus I doubt that any but a few Sms would be subtle or patient enough for this (in THIS environment. They could sit on a sniper position for days and weeks without moving or holding a Pass for weeks, no problem. But faking to be a Administratum Clerk for two years? seriously - no way!)

c) Lack of frigging social skills. Being brought up to be killing machines amon other inhuman super-soldiers, often coming from feral world stock... what kind of social skills do SM have to allow them to blend into the mainstream society? None at all. Even the nice ones are arrogant, aloof and utterly unceoncered with the ways the civvies live.

d) No reason to - there are so many people that are better suited to do the tedious, long lasting and mostly boring work of a spy. Even a SM chapter has easily access to any number of normal humans they could train to be their spies and who probably would be grateful and loyal too, if they are taken from along their serfs. There is simpl no reason at all to use Battlebrothers that might be missed elsewhere to be spies...

Unless of course you were conducting espionage against, for example, other Astartes.

... which is ludicrously unlikely given the fact that the only thing rarer than Astartes is Blanks

reds8n wrote: Unless of course you were conducting espionage against, for example, other Astartes.

Even in such a situation, A member of one chapter would likely know or at least recognise many of his fellow members. Serfs, servants, and functionaries tend to be more faceless than a SM would be to his battle brothers.

The key to effective espionage is hiding in plain sight. Its not about Tuxes and Cavier.... Its the guy that blends in and no-one notices that makes the best spy. Take Julius Rosenberg for example... Not exactly a leading man type.


His Brother-in-law was the main source of the information he passed on, an enlisted engineer.

Melissia wrote:... which is ludicrously unlikely

..in the 40K setting. Hmm.. okay.

I'll refer you back to my previous post about a short story about this very thing happening.

Or the way the Alpha Legion destroyed a loyalist chapter.

Yes, and a few scant instances during 10,000 years, over uncounted millions of planets, and uncounted trillions of sentient lives-- that is the very definition of rare.

Here's a modern scenario..... Assume you are working for the British Admiralty..... You need information about activities in Hong Kong.

Do you send MI:6 or the SAS?

helgrenze wrote:Here's a modern scenario..... Assume you are working for the British Admiralty..... You need information about activities in Hong Kong.

Do you send MI:6 or the SAS?

The way things work today? They would probably send a couple of lawyers. And tose would bribed and milked for info by the chinese, or simply forget their laptop with top secret data in a cab.

But your point is well put of course.

helgrenze wrote:Here's a modern scenario

and therefore irrelevant to the 40K setting. But to answer it : I'd send whoever was or had the best fit. Or, importantly, who or what was the best available to me at the time.

Yes, and a few scant instances

...that we know of. If it has happened, then it's quite quite plausible it could and will happen again. Marines are supposed to number less than 1 per planet of the Imperium, but you wouldn't think that by the amount we "see" and are told about them.

Off the top of my head I believe there are Espionage squads depicted in the HH artbook series as well.

And from the forthcoming Deathwatch RPG

If your group has a predilection for political intrigue, the Deathwatch may dispatch your Kill-team to deal with a delicate situation involving the high Lord-Militants of the Crusade, complete with plenty of backstabbing, favour-grubbing, and jockeying for position and privilege.

The machinations of the Crusade in the Jericho Reach provide an excellent background for political maneuvers involving the Deathwatch. There are many places where the efforts of a single Kill-team could spell the difference between victory and defeat, and there are many more officials of the Crusade who are well aware of this fact! During our in-house Deathwatch campaign, the Kill-team encountered a Lord General who had clearly gone insane and needed to be replaced, lest his madness cost the Crusade invaluable territory and progress. This particular challenge required more than bolter fire to solve...

Add in all the politics between rival chapters and theri frequent unwillingness to co operate at times and the lengths they go to conceal things there's no way you can deny it happens.

"The US defines espionage towards itself as "The act of obtaining, delivering, transmitting, communicating, or receiving information"

"Case officers are stationed in foreign countries to recruit and supervise intelligence agents, who in turn spy on targets in their countries where they are assigned."

In The Book Legion, the Alpha Legion do in fact demonstrate through infiltration and indoctrination the act of espionage as described above.

To say that Space Marines can not conduct espionage in view of the fluff and in the games rules (past and present) is wrong.

As to suggest in real world terms if this is actually practical is another matter but this is Sci-fi and real world terms don't matter. (Thank you Star Trek)

Though to be honest Espionage is a waste of time for a Space Marine as the argument still stands that the IoM have people and groups far better suited to the job.

So is it a question of who is better or who is better qualified?

Natural abilities, honed primarily for use on a battle field, are the Astartes proponants main point.

Trained skills, honed over years specifically for the act of espionage, are the proponants of Arbites main point.

And of course there is also the Frankenstein vs the invisible man arguement.

The books and stories referenced in this thread read a lot like Fanfic. The Marine characters come off as more James Bond played by Chuck Norris than the Stainless Steel Rat played by Toby Maguire. (Don't know that reference.... Look it up. Actors included for illustrative purposes only.)

helgrenze wrote: The Marine characters come off as more James Bond played by Chuck Norris than the Stainless Steel Rat played by Toby Maguire. (Don't know that reference.... Look it up. Actors included for illustrative purposes only.)

OT: Stainless Steel Rat is the  roxxorz!

Back on topic: Yes, of course any gathering of secret or priviledged info against the consent of the holder of that info can be defined as espionage, but lets not split hairs too much or we will have to open the whole can of SIGINT, IMINT, OSINT etc. in here and there we are treading esoteric terrain. For the sake of this particular thread lets keep it to the "classical, cloak and dagger" - or rather HUMINT for the so inclined - espionage, that I think was originally on the OPs mind (unless I'm wrong in that assumption).

To be frank the whole issue is kind of mute.

Espionage is a rare thing in 40K though they like to have a go of it in the fluff. Each faction in the Univers can and will do it in some form or another to fit their needs. An eldar will induct a human, Space marines more or less the same, Inquisition a case of DIY, The Tau... well are Tau and so on and so forth. As to who is better opinion is rife.

helgrenze wrote:

The books and stories referenced in this thread read a lot like Fanfic.

I disagree entirely.

And from the first post :

And anything Marines can do in the espionage field, Arbites can probably do better

Can Arbiters eat the brain of a person and absorb their memories and knowledge ?

reds8n wrote:

helgrenze wrote:

The books and stories referenced in this thread read a lot like Fanfic.

I disagree entirely.

And from the first post :

And anything Marines can do in the espionage field, Arbites can probably do better

Can Arbiters eat the brain of a person and absorb their memories and knowledge ?

Nope, but they can torture the heck out of almost anyone and get to the knowledge they want, without risking Mad Cow disease... (Prions anyone?) Also this is beyond the scope of this topic I think. Eating Brains is not espionage, otherwise Zombies would all wear Tuxedos

But seriously, I think this discussion is stalled here. The Astartes Fans (including those among the fluff-authors) will never accept that there is anything that a SM cannot do better then anyone else, so we always will find another piece of fluff or line of reasoning that will prove even the most outrageous claims, regardless if they are sensible, needed or beneficial or not.

Don't get me wrong, this is no flame: thats ok in a fictional universe - but it makes discussing such stuff rather pointless.

In a climate of conspiracy that is a lot of brains to eat. Plus it would take time to sort through those memories to find the ones that are relevant.

ok lets say that SM Sgt B'daas is sent to uncover a xeno conspiracy..... He looks around finds a likely candidate, kills that person and eats his brain. After assimilating the new knowledge, he goes and find some-one that the first victim felt knew more about things... Rinse, repeat...
by the time he makes any headway, people may start to notice folks disappearing. Very inefficient way to conduct an investigation.

Arbiter Smoake is sent to invistigate a similar plot. He inserts himself into the local scene, watches the comings and goings, learns who is acting slightly out of the norm. Then through either stealth or subterfuge gains access to the outer circle of conspirators. Further acts eventually gain him access to the inner circle. Once he has a list of suspects and evidence to back those suspicions, Either a force is sent in to make arrests, or assassins to eliminate the threat.

IF the threat is larger than can be dealt with, then the Guard and or Marines are sent for.

Eating Brains is not espionage,

it is if it gathers you operational information. For example in "Courage and Honour" some Ultramarines are well behind enemy lines and need to get back ASAP with vital info. To this end they stalk kill and then eat some Piranha pilots and absorb their knowledge of how to use their vehicles and the location of their HQ.

I'm not claiming that they're aren't better choices for espionage -- the shape changing assassin is a clear winner , generally. But I think it stupid to claim that marines never use espionage or such tactics or are incapable of it.

Shrike led a squad behind ork enemy lines for two years conducting raids, providing intell and wreaking all manner of havoc.

He inserts himself into the local scene, watches the comings and goings, learns who is acting slightly out of the norm. Then through either stealth or subterfuge gains access to the outer circle of conspirators

All of which a marine is just as capable of doing as well.

Slightly off-topic:

If you were an Alpha Legion-inducted agent, spying on and possibly acting against those you were living amongst, wouldn't you rather your Legion masters hadn't PHYSICALLY BRANDED YOU as one of their own?

Or is that just me?

Necroagogo wrote:Slightly off-topic:

If you were an Alpha Legion-inducted agent, spying on and possibly acting against those you were living amongst, wouldn't you rather your Legion masters hadn't PHYSICALLY BRANDED YOU as one of their own?

Or is that just me?

It is a bit silly

reds8n wrote:
All of which a marine is just as capable of doing as well.

Ok, so then there is no NEED for the Arbites and the Inquistion. The Astartes can do all their work and fight the thousands of battles they normally do.

Its not a question of IF they can do the same job. Obviously, both groups are capable at a base level. But then we come back to the Frankenstiens monster vs the Invisible man side.
Citing something like Shrike in what is obviously a battle field setting is different from gathering intelligence at a costume ball. Or the local market.

You don't send Swat to do a Detectives job. Both are capable of conducting an investigation, but one is better trained to do so.

And you don't need to gather intelligence at a costume ball when you have Psykers who can rip the information out of a suspect's skull.

There are no rights in the 41st Millenium. No Mirandizing suspects, no right to counsel(unless you're filthy stinkin' rich).

Imperial Justice is a bolt to the back of the head, if you're lucky, or being lobotomized and turned into a servitor/flagellant if you're not.

reds8n wrote: Unless of course you were conducting espionage against, for example, other Astartes.

Dun, dun, dunnnnnnnn!!!


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Kanluwen wrote:And you don't need to gather intelligence at a costume ball when you have Psykers who can rip the information out of a suspect's skull.

There are no rights in the 41st Millenium. No Mirandizing suspects, no right to counsel(unless you're filthy stinkin' rich).

Imperial Justice is a bolt to the back of the head, if you're lucky, or being lobotomized and turned into a servitor/flagellant if you're not.

A lot of espionage is not ripping info out of people's head using telepathy, reconnaissance, and other such things.

It is gathering and collating numerous bits of facts which when collated make up a coherent whole.

Since most of the Imperium's enemies are various kinds of aliens and Chaos, there can't be many opportunities for espionage in the normal sense.

I think the only thing even remotely close to "espionage" we'll hear about is, quite simply, on the part of the various Cults infiltrating Imperial society.

Exactly.

Like in East Germany the Stasi spent a lot more time watching their own citizens for signs of deviation than they did trying to bring about the fall of the West.

True enough.

The Imperial "Intelligence" service we've heard about a few times in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels seem to be more of the "Stealth Operations" vein of intelligence gathering, with a few prisoner snatches here and there. It also seems to heavily rely upon Rogue Traders and their crew.

helgrenze wrote:


Its not a question of IF they can do the same job.

Actually that's very much one of the points of contention in the thread.

reds8n wrote:

helgrenze wrote:


Its not a question of IF they can do the same job.

Actually that's very much one of the points of contention in the thread.

Like I said in the same post, You don't send SWAT to do a Detective's job. Both are able to conduct an investigation but one is bettert trained to do that job.

Honestly, anyone, you, me, Melissia, COULD act like a spy. We could infiltrate a place or group, gather information, collect ntelligence and evidence. Heck, we might even get away with it.
BUT that would not make any of us a true espionage agent. At best we would be considered "talented amateurs".

Would Astartes make better spys than the general populace? ... Probably.
Better than the Arbites? ... More than likely not. regardless of the fanfic and anecdotal evidence provided. Its a matter of training and, especially for higher level agents, experience that the space marines would probably lack.

So you're saying that Astartes Scouts from a Chapter like the Raven Guard, who actively infiltrate Ork infested planets for two year durations of surveillance are less talented at espionage than some Arbites Judge who infiltrates a random cult?

Calling BS on it.

In the Tales of Heresy short story Blood Games by Dan Abnett, an Adeptus Custodes manages to infiltrate many different levels of Terran society before smuggling himself into the Imperial Palace as a servant.

Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that Astartes Scouts from a Chapter like the Raven Guard, who actively infiltrate Ork infested planets for two year durations of surveillance are less talented at espionage than some Arbites Judge who infiltrates a random cult?

Calling BS on it.

No. Less Trained.

Why would the Raven Guard be on an Ork infested planet? What kind of information are they gathering? Military strength, troop types and movements, minor sabotage, Identifying primary targets... things a military commander would need to know.

The Judge would be looking for less obvious things. What kind of cult, who is in it, who are the leaders/followers, how bad is the contamination... things they would need to prove the need for further action.

Finding the Big Boss on an ork held world isnt that difficult. Finding the demon influenced planetary Official would be considerably harder.... The Orks are not trying to hide.

I've never heard of an Arbitrator going under cover. (Although I have not yet read the Shira Calpurnia novels.) It just doesn't seem to fit their idiom.


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helgrenze wrote:Finding the demon influenced planetary Official would be considerably harder...

This would be the business of Ordos Hereticus and/or Maellus. It's a good bet that most Arbitrators do not even know that daemons exist.

.
Better than the Arbites? ... More than likely not. regardless of the fanfic and anecdotal evidence provided. Its a matter of training and, especially for higher level agents, experience that the space marines would probably lack.

But this is where you're argument keeps collapsing as you're providing no actual proof, oddly enough outside of fanfic wankery and delusions, of the Arbiters actually managing this. Mainly, I suspect, as there appears to be a somewhat odd understanding of what the Arbiters generally do -- most don't investigate and go undercover, mostly they simply oversee the local law enforcement authorities and then stamp down on any outright signs of subversion or heresy.

What we do have a lot of examples of is the Arbiters calling in the Inquisition to follow up and investigate, mainly due to their inability to do so.

And I'm still waiting for counters to things like the aforementioned Raven Guard actions. That is espionage and one most Arbiters couldn't do at all.

I agree that cetain chapters and marines would fail utterly at this -- no chance of Grimaldus pretending to being anything other than what he is and I don't see the Death Company as being especially subtle. Even if they wore hats and or fake moustaches.

And I agree that some.. many even.. chapters would see this as totally beneath them or indeed don't have the time or inclination to investigate what are, to them, mundane concerns.

But members of the Wolf Guard stationed on Terra have been shown as being quite capable of conducting investigations and acting with a surprising deftness of touch. And this is from a chapter whose primarch had a tank named after him as they were both loud, destructive and often fuelled by alcohol.

You think the dark Angels and their successor chapters don't have some form of intelligence network with regards to the Fallen ? To the extent that they know when marines from another chapter have encountered and/or captured one of said foe ?

helgrenze wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:So you're saying that Astartes Scouts from a Chapter like the Raven Guard, who actively infiltrate Ork infested planets for two year durations of surveillance are less talented at espionage than some Arbites Judge who infiltrates a random cult?

Calling BS on it.

No. Less Trained.

Why would the Raven Guard be on an Ork infested planet? What kind of information are they gathering? Military strength, troop types and movements, minor sabotage, Identifying primary targets... things a military commander would need to know.

Or things like y'know...
Manufacturing capabilities, who's supplying the Warboss with his technology, where his material is coming from, etc.

The Judge would be looking for less obvious things. What kind of cult, who is in it, who are the leaders/followers, how bad is the contamination... things they would need to prove the need for further action.

And they won't be involved in that, unless an Inquisitor has sponsored them to get involved.

Finding the Big Boss on an ork held world isnt that difficult. Finding the demon influenced planetary Official would be considerably harder.... The Orks are not trying to hide.

Finding the Warboss on an Ork held world isn't difficult, but finding the Big Mek supplying him with his warmachines is.

And daemonically influenced planetary officials aren't going to be found by an Arbites Judge. The Adeptus Telepathica isn't blind to when there's something daemonic going on.

reds8n wrote:

mostly they simply oversee the local law enforcement authorities and then stamp down on any outright signs of subversion or heresy.

So basically they are like a facist form of FBI.
And how would they detect such subversion and heresy in order to call in the Inquistion? What would qualify as Outright signs of either subversion or heresy?

And I'm still waiting for counters to things like the aforementioned Raven Guard actions. That is espionage and one most Arbiters couldn't do at all.

Countered above. Raven Guard on an Ork world will find what they need rather easily. The trick would be not being found, which is a different skill set. Orks do not hide under layers of subterfuge and misdirection. As for the Big Boss.. just locate the biggest ork on the planet.

helgrenze wrote:So basically they are like a facist form of FBI

That's exactly it.

Perhaps you've heard of what they're based on:

So basically they are like a facist form of FBI.

hmm.. ish. I think the Gestapo would perhaps be a better analogy. They're perfectly justified -- and have done so - in executing a planets Govenor or leaders, they have powers of arrest and final sanction over everyone and everything.
They're not subtle, they're much more "heard reports of bad things in sector X, lets burn down sector x and shoot anyone we find." their investigations largely consist of rounding up people and... applying pressure... until they find what they are looking for.

Again though they are and will be exceptions to this, that's part of the beauty of the setting.

And how would they detect such subversion and heresy in order to call in the Inquistion? What would qualify as Outright signs of either subversion or heresy?

Large increases in psykers, obvious signs of chaos cultist activity... pretty much whatever the plot required I guess.

Countered above. Raven Guard on an Ork world will find what they need rather easily. The trick would be not being found, which is a different skill set

Again I disagree on both points here.

Arbites do undercover. They are cops.

The Arbites do have detectives whose main duty is to track down hackers; cyber criminals operating within the computer matrix of the Adminstratum.

The main purpose of the Adeptus Arbites is to present a public face to the Imperial presence on a world, they are obvious, they are unsubtle and they only enforce the Lex Imperialis, concentrating on treasonous planetary officials, not pretending to be old Mr Granger who seems harmless enough but whose apartment is full of cameras and recording equipment becasue he's an undercover Arbites agent.

Cult activity within the Imperium, which might need the sort of surveillance mentioned above is toutinely done by local law enforvement which has nothing to do with the Arbites. That isn't to say that Officer Bob is looking for Chaos activity, he's almost certainly never heard of Chaos but he will be investigating suspicious activity according to planetary law, he might well stumble upon somethign that's way over his head and that's when the Arbites are contacted.

The Arbites are a paramilitary organisation, with their own fleets and troops, better trained, better armed and better armoured than almost anything the Imperial Guard has to offer. When contacted by planetary law enforcement their first response will be to send in heavily armed death squads which will either neutralise any possible threat or reveal something too big for them to handle in which case the Guard, the Astartes and maybe the Inquisition too if it's deemed necessary will be called in.

Covert surveillance of Chaos or Xenophile Cults done with full knowldge of what these Cults truly are is done by the Inquisition and its agents, especially Chaos Cults. An Inquisitor may well call upon the Arbites if he finds he/she and their henchmen can't deal with the threat themselves but the actual udnercover work is not done by the Arbites.

As to whether or not the Adeptus Arbites, as an organisation is better than the Adeptus Astartes in its entirety at espionage then the answer is almost certainly no. Both the Arbites and the Astartes, in their entireties, probably have proportional amounts of specialists to carry out that role.

Are the Arbites/Astartes better than local police forces at espionage against ordinary folks? No.

Are the Arbites/Astartes better than the Inquisiton at espionage targetted against Chaos or Xenophile Cults? No.

Are the Arbites better at putting whole worlds and their governments under constant surveillance than local law enforcment or the Inquisition or the Astartes? Yes.

Are the Astartes better at military espionage than the Arbites, Inquisition or the Officio Sabatorum? Yes. (it should be noted that the Officio Sabatorum is pretty good too though but more specialised in just exactly what they do unlike the Astartes who are have more general specilists and hence can do more).

I don't think arbites have their own fleets do they?

@ KamikazeCanuck: That depends on what your definition of ownership is I guess. Go ahead, you tell the Imperial Arbites Death Squad "No! You can't have my Yacht!".

Espionage is a lot more complex then this thread is making it out to be. There is a difference between Offensive Espionage, Counter-Espionage, Inciting Revolution, Infiltration and Reconascence that most people here don't seem to grasp, or are ignoring for the sake of their argument.

Also no civilization can survive if they ignore the problems they are facing, for example. If I'm an Arbitas, I know that there is a Chaos Cult in this town but the Inquisitor wont be here for a few months, I'm not going to sit on my hands and say "Meh that's the other guys problem".

Pretty sure Arbites just take Imperial Navy vessels. Much like real cops they don't have battleships.

Astartes, can do all those things but they usually wouldn't. The exception being Alpha Legion which has done and continues to do all those things. When it comes to espionage and counter-espionage they don't do it directly though but with agents they've managed to conscript to their cause.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:@ KamikazeCanuck: That depends on what your definition of ownership is I guess. Go ahead, you tell the Imperial Arbites Death Squad "No! You can't have my Yacht!".

Espionage is a lot more complex then this thread is making it out to be. There is a difference between Offensive Espionage, Counter-Espionage, Inciting Revolution, Infiltration and Reconascence that most people here don't seem to grasp, or are ignoring for the sake of their argument.

Also no civilization can survive if they ignore the problems they are facing, for example. If I'm an Arbitas, I know that there is a Chaos Cult in this town but the Inquisitor wont be here for a few months, I'm not going to sit on my hands and say "Meh that's the other guys problem".

Amen, I think the idea of espionage was checked at the door here.

Probably because espionage, period, is going to be something that's not really big in 40k.

Deep Strike, Hidden Deployment, Snipers, Night Fighting, Objective Missions... Do I really need to go on. Sure as players there is no Espionage, you see the entire board at all times, nothing is really "hidden". However all those rules are meant to simulate parts of Espionage. Also it is Grimdark, if you don't think people sneak around, back-stab, blackmail, extort, murder, assassinate, steal... you have a very small world view.

I have no word to sum up the idea that Espionage is absent form 40k: UNDERHIVES.

thegrav wrote:Deep Strike, Hidden Deployment, Snipers, Night Fighting, Objective Missions.

I don't think any of these things are espionage in the spirit OP meant.


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I can't speak for Kanluwen, but in the sense that I read his post he did not mean "no spies in the 40k setting" so much as "no spies in the 40k game."

Spies are useless as a whole in terms of the 40k background, to be honest.

The Imperium uses Psykers and Rogue Traders to gather intelligence, with the Astartes using their Scout squads and Chapter Serfs in addition to the standard Imperial intelligence services.

The Tau use their Water Caste and Pathfinders as intelligence gathering services, Eldar use the Rangers/Pathfinders and their Farseers to do the same, Tyranids eat your brains, etc.

Would you not agree that Inquisitors sometimes function as spies within Imperial society? And there are of course other spies working for the various interests of Governors and criminals, heretics--and, of course, xenos. If you're talking about spies as a part of the military organization of any force, well that's just not how spies work.


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To get back to OP, I don't think that "espionage" is a tool employed by Adeptus Arbites Judges so whether or not they are better at it than Space Marines, who also don't seem to go out for it, is kind of a moot point.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Pretty sure Arbites just take Imperial Navy vessels.

The fighting forces of the Adeptus Arbites are the Arbitrators, warriors of justice, the militant arm of the Judges. These warriors are many and well armed, capable of fighting a limited war if need be, and of transporting themselves through space in their own ships. For the Judges trust no-one they may be called upon to judge, and can find themselves fighting rebellious Warmasters of the Imperial Guard, or chasing treacherous Admirals of the Fleet. More often it is traitors amongst the planetary lords who are the Arbitrators' foes.

Codex Imperialis page 34

The Arbites are not a police force per se, they are not 'cops'. The Adeptus Arbites enforces the Lex Imperialis, Imperial Law, and have almost as much authoity as an Inquisitor; you could argue that the authority of the Arbites is superior even, as whilst an Inquisitor has absolute authority technically, an Inquisitor can often be just one person, totally alone with only a 'Because I said so' to get them what they want, when they choose to reveal their presence. The Arbites however have the military and fleet assets to enforce their authority instantly with no need to ask other Imperial organisations or individuals to submit to their authority and help them out, pweety pwease.

The militant arm of the Arbites are the Arbitrators who do not administer Imperial Law but enforce it according to a Judge. If we follow the Judge Dread analogy it follows that Arbitrators are like Judge Dread, each one able to serve Instant Justice, but that is not the case only the Judges are like Judge Dread, funnily enough, the Arbitrators are grunts; the Judges determine the guilty and the Arbitrators execute them

ComputerGeek01 wrote:If I'm an Arbitas, I know that there is a Chaos Cult in this town but the Inquisitor wont be here for a few months, I'm not going to sit on my hands and say "Meh that's the other guys problem".

No-one's saying they would, or at least I'm not saying they would, but there is no common knowledge of Chaos and so it is down to a few, mainly the Ordo Malleus, to actually, purposefully go to a world and search for any possible taint of Chaos in whatever form it happens to be.

With that as the case a Chaos Cult would likely draw the attention of local law enforcement first due its activites. If in tackling the Cult as a nefarious organisation (like I say, most ordinary Imperial Citizens don't know about Chaos but they would obviously see the abberant nature of Chaos Cultists and pursue them for what they do, not for what they are) and it was revleaed that the extent of the Cult was of sufficent size or threat to destabilise the planet then the Arbites will be onto pretty quick, and storm in guns blazing as is their want. If that reveals that the Cult is too much of a threa for the local Arbites to deal with then other Imperial organisations will be contacted; the true nature of the Cult might not be known until an Inquisitor turns up with ordinary people assuming it to be a group of 'ordinary' heretics and/or traitors, afterall you can commit heresy without being a devotee of Chaos. The Arbites only get involved when a threat becomes great enough to affect the planet and/or its contributions to the Imperium per the Lex Imperialis.

The point I'm trying to make is that all of these bodies do use or are capable of espionage it is the reasons for the use of espionage and the targets it is used against which determines in what way Imperial organisation X is or is not good at espionage.

Melissia's assertion is that firstly the Arbites are best placed to do what the Arbites do and hence they are better than the Astartes. It is a straw man argument and completely redundant. Secondly that the Arbites are simply better at 'espionage' that the Astartes, 'anything Marines can do in the espionage field, Arbites can probably do better'.

As people have pointed out there are many forms of espionage and as I have tried to demonstrate the various Imperial organisations are better at some forms than the others or realistically are only concerned with and are therefore only good at certain forms of espionage. To say that an Astartes is not going to be able to live on a normal street with normal people and not get noticed is silly, what Astartes would ever want or need to do that? There are only two examples of Astartes doing that (all other examples, Raven Guard included are using stealth as a military tactic, not the same thing at all) and those examples are the Alpha Legion who usually use normal humans anyway, and some Fallen Angels who cast off their armour and lived ordinary lives, amongst ordianry people trying to atone for their past mistakes; and since those Fallen wanted to live ordinary lives, not spy on people, it makes sense that they would have chosen planets or areas where people would look at them and not even blink.

Gogsnik wrote: and have almost as much authoity as an Inquisitor; you could argue that the authority of the Arbites is superior even

Incorrect. All Imperial resources are at the disposal of the Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition by law. That includes the resources of Adeptus Arbites and, as a matter of upholding the law, Arbitrators would be bound more clearly than just about any other Imperial force to cooperate--i.e., submit to Inquisitorial authority. Yet, as Dark Heresy makes clear, Arbitrators do not think this makes the Inquisition above the law. This makes for some interesting calls, of course, as Inquisitors often occupy a grey space in the Imperial hierarchy--at least when Inquisitors begin turning on one another. When it comes to who is at the Inquisition's beck and call, however, there is no doubt: everyone who is not a heretic.

Manchu wrote:Incorrect.

You've missed my point which was that, undeniably Inquisitors have ultimate authority yes but not always the means to enforce it right there and then, something which leads to a nasty end for either the Inquisitor or those defying their authority.

Mistress of minis wrote:Space marines also can live for hundreds of years- that much experience could make them more diverse than just guys with bolters.

Espionage, is a broad endeavor that doesnt always require infiltration amongst an indigenous population.

Arbites, and Inquisitors(and some henchmen) would be more suited for the infiltration and investigation side of it. Whereas a SM could be more adept at military surveillance and observation especially since they have heightened senses compared to a unaugmented human.

Or thousands of years....cough,ahriman

Manchu wrote:

thegrav wrote:Deep Strike, Hidden Deployment, Snipers, Night Fighting, Objective Missions.

I don't think any of these things are espionage in the spirit OP meant.


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I can't speak for Kanluwen, but in the sense that I read his post he did not mean "no spies in the 40k setting" so much as "no spies in the 40k game."

Hence the statement: The true meaning of espionage was checked at the door. You guys are picking a choosing the very popularized and fictional versions of espionage (James Bond gak) and using it as your baseline, and throwing out what espionage, and stealth combat are in general. Also the second bit of my post was a bit more along the lines of your espionage. If the OP was "SPACE MARINES CANNOT SNEAK AROUND IN FULL ARMOR" title it that.


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@Machu: You realize at a certain level you are arguing that State Police are better equipped and better trained to deal with Insurrectionist force in Iraq. I mean the argument is the same. Chaos Cults, at a certain level become the problem of the Military arm of the Empire, not the police arm. Sure 15 cultists in a back room, makes sense. 200,000 Cultists backed by the Iron Warriors... you have a lot of dead cops..

@Gogsnik: No, I caught your point. I think you missed mine: every single battleship, titan, tank, everything right down to the very last lasgun in the Imperium consitute the resources of the Inquisition. You weren't talking about a particular Arbitor--who sometimes act alone just as Inquisitors do. Rather, you were talking about the Adeptus Arbites as a whole. Similarly, I was talking about the Inquisition as a whole.

@thegrav: Espionage is not the same thing as reconnaissance. I daresay you're throwing out James Bond in favor of Solid Snake here.


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thegrav wrote:@Machu: You realize at a certain level you are arguing that State Police are better equipped and better trained to deal with Insurrectionist force in Iraq. I mean the argument is the same. Chaos Cults, at a certain level become the problem of the Military arm of the Empire, not the police arm. Sure 15 cultists in a back room, makes sense. 200,000 Cultists backed by the Iron Warriors... you have a lot of dead cops..

You seem to be assuming that I think the Adeptus Arbites are the equivalent of the Imperial Guard or Space Marines but I've not made that argument at all. That would be Gogsnik.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I don't think arbites have their own fleets do they?

Yes they do, one of them is even featured in one of the novels... a McNeill one maybe ? Can't recall right now and it'll bug all day now. Thanks !

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Pretty sure Arbites just take Imperial Navy vessels. Much like real cops they don't have battleships.

Astartes, can do all those things but they usually wouldn't. The exception being Alpha Legion which has done and continues to do all those things. When it comes to espionage and counter-espionage they don't do it directly though but with agents they've managed to conscript to their cause.

Yes they have :-D

http://blackstone.outpost10f.com/ships/punisher.html

Execution hour ! Of course.

Manchu wrote:

Gogsnik wrote: and have almost as much authoity as an Inquisitor; you could argue that the authority of the Arbites is superior even

Incorrect. All Imperial resources are at the disposal of the Holy Orders of the Emperor's Inquisition by law. That includes the resources of Adeptus Arbites and, as a matter of upholding the law, Arbitrators would be bound more clearly than just about any other Imperial force to cooperate--i.e., submit to Inquisitorial authority. Yet, as Dark Heresy makes clear, Arbitrators do not think this makes the Inquisition above the law. This makes for some interesting calls, of course, as Inquisitors often occupy a grey space in the Imperial hierarchy--at least when Inquisitors begin turning on one another. When it comes to who is at the Inquisition's beck and call, however, there is no doubt: everyone who is not a heretic.

Thats correct, but I think what he meant is that while - in theory - everyone would have to submit to an Inquisitors wishes immediatly, some might not be inclined to do so, especially when they are powerful/well connected, the Inquisitor is there only with a small entourage, and/or even under cover and they basically think they could get away with it; while the Arbites would probably have at least a Precinct House or even a Puninisher Cruiser in Orbit, so that the rebellious scum would not have a chance to shut them up without at least word getting out. In the end its all politics and the real power of either an Inquisitor or Arbitres Marshal is measured by his backing and how powerful the parties are he wants to either coerce or move against.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:@ KamikazeCanuck: That depends on what your definition of ownership is I guess. Go ahead, you tell the Imperial Arbites Death Squad "No! You can't have my Yacht!".

Espionage is a lot more complex then this thread is making it out to be. There is a difference between Offensive Espionage, Counter-Espionage, Inciting Revolution, Infiltration and Reconascence that most people here don't seem to grasp, or are ignoring for the sake of their argument.

Also no civilization can survive if they ignore the problems they are facing, for example. If I'm an Arbitas, I know that there is a Chaos Cult in this town but the Inquisitor wont be here for a few months, I'm not going to sit on my hands and say "Meh that's the other guys problem".

You might if you thought that when the Inquisitor arrived he would shoot you for meddling in his affairs.

Manchu wrote:@Gogsnik: No, I caught your point. I think you missed mine: every single battleship, titan, tank, everything right down to the very last lasgun in the Imperium consitute the resources of the Inquisition.

Yes, I know that, I don't dispute that and never have; except the part about Titans and the Adeptus Mechanicus in general which the Inquisition does not have ultimate authority over.

Rather, you were talking about the Adeptus Arbites as a whole.

Exactly and that is why you have cotinued to miss my point which is this - If a Judge tells someone to do something, anyone, Joe Bloggs of Governor Big Chees whomever, and they refuse or tell him to get lost then right at his back the Judge has an army of fanatical, highly trained andwell equipped Arbitrators and maybe some ships in orbit who can enfore the Judges will instantly.


An Inquisitor does not start out with an army or fleet at his beck and call. Some may, over the course of their career gain enough influence so that after several centuries they may have what is literally a private army but those Inquisitor are few and far between.

Since the Inquisition has no formalised hierarchy most Inquisitors are on their own, they may not be part of one of the Ordos and hence do not get the support of a Chamber Militant and even if they were there use of such troops is checked by other Inquisitors.

The vast majority of Inquisitors operate alone, with a few trusted henchmen, maybe.

My point with regards to an Inquisitor not getting his way is that when an Inquisitor operates alone he may not be able to order every single person aroudn him to do whatever he wants, it could very well jeopardise years of investigation.

The Arbites as an organisation, most of the time, do not have lone individuals operating by themselves in the manner of an Inquisitor and hence it is unlikely that they will ever find themselves in a position where someone can just say no to them.

You seem to be assuming that I think the Adeptus Arbites are the equivalent of the Imperial Guard or Space Marines but I've not made that argument at all. That would be Gogsnik.

I don't know what your point here is. I've never said the Adeptus Arbites are like the Imperial Guard or the Adeptus Astartes either.

I wish you all luck in this continued argument.

@gogsnik: Didn't realize you had either.

@everyone: Carry on!

Actually, an Inquisitor does start out with an army or fleet at his beck and call.

From the time they're elevated to full Inquisitor status, they're able to 'request' the secondment of Imperial Naval+Guard forces right off.

Sorry...I posted this in the wrong thread by total accident...disregard this.

Jimsolo wrote:Sorry...I posted this in the wrong thread by total accident...disregard this.

So!

You've accidentally revealed yourself, Infiltrator!!

Don't think you can get away with it now...

Your argument boils down to having an Arbites sticker on one ship and not having an Inquisition sticker on another ship. First of all, it's simply not true: the Inquisition does maintain its own ships (they're black) and troops (aside from the Chambers Militant). Not all Inquisitors go around by themselves like Eisenhorn and Ravenor. Second, it's immaterial: the chances that a Governor will disobey a Judge are much higher than him disobeying an Inquisitor--local precincts don't much factor into this kind of comparison, considering that Inquisitors can (all by themselves even) destroy a planet with a single astropathic message.

Gogsnik wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Pretty sure Arbites just take Imperial Navy vessels.

The fighting forces of the Adeptus Arbites are the Arbitrators, warriors of justice, the militant arm of the Judges. These warriors are many and well armed, capable of fighting a limited war if need be, and of transporting themselves through space in their own ships. For the Judges trust no-one they may be called upon to judge, and can find themselves fighting rebellious Warmasters of the Imperial Guard, or chasing treacherous Admirals of the Fleet. More often it is traitors amongst the planetary lords who are the Arbitrators' foes.

Codex Imperialis page 34

I stand corrected. I have a lot more respect for the arbites now (who I always thought were badass). What is codex imperialis?
Is "Execution Hour" about The Arbites? Has anyone read it? Is it good?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Gogsnik wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Pretty sure Arbites just take Imperial Navy vessels.

The fighting forces of the Adeptus Arbites are the Arbitrators, warriors of justice, the militant arm of the Judges. These warriors are many and well armed, capable of fighting a limited war if need be, and of transporting themselves through space in their own ships. For the Judges trust no-one they may be called upon to judge, and can find themselves fighting rebellious Warmasters of the Imperial Guard, or chasing treacherous Admirals of the Fleet. More often it is traitors amongst the planetary lords who are the Arbitrators' foes.

Codex Imperialis page 34

I stand corrected. I have a lot more respect for the arbites now (who I always thought were badass). What is codex imperialis?
Is "Execution Hour" about The Arbites? Has anyone read it? Is it good?

No its actually about the Navy first and foremost. But still quite a good read - I can safely recommend it to anyone even slightly intererested in Space Battles


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:Your argument boils down to having an Arbites sticker on one ship and not having an Inquisition sticker on another ship. First of all, it's simply not true: the Inquisition does maintain its own ships (they're black) and troops (aside from the Chambers Militant). Not all Inquisitors go around by themselves like Eisenhorn and Ravenor. Second, it's immaterial: the chances that a Governor will disobey a Judge are much higher than him disobeying an Inquisitor--local precincts don't much factor into this kind of comparison, considering that Inquisitors can (all by themselves even) destroy a planet with a single astropathic message.

As long as he gets that Message out. Been there already in Dark Heresy, the fethlings just took out our Inquisitor after blowing up the Astropathic Choir of the planet...Bastiches! ;-) Ah well I think we wandered off topic so far already I can't even see the shore anymore :-)

Codex Imperialis is a long out-of-date rulebook, one of the first to deal in any detail with the 40k background. It's not too reliable a source anymore although it should be pretty good for the Adeptus Arbites as no one has done much with them (Shira Calpurnia novels aside) in all these years. The most up-to-date info about Arbitrators would be found in the Dark Heresy books published by FFG but this will likely have been strongly influenced by Codex Imperialis anyhow.

Manchu wrote:Your argument boils down to having an Arbites sticker on one ship and not having an Inquisition sticker on another ship.

No it doesn't but if you're going to get silly then I'm not going to discuss the issue further with you.

Inquisitors can (all by themselves even) destroy a planet with a single astropathic message.

lol, you make it so sound so simple (also, if they have to get an Astropath to send the message and then wait for someone else to turn up to carry out the Exterminatus it isn't exactly all by themselves is it).

Didn't think it was silly. I just don't think you have made a convincing point. And there's nothing especially hard for an Inquisitor about finding an Astropath. You seem to assume that an Inquisitor would have a huge amount of trouble accessing any kind of resource. Maybe you're the one being silly?

I find your obtuseness to be silly, especially since earlier you said you knew what I had meant (that I was talking about the Adeptus Arbites as an organisation that is known to go around mob handed compared to a lone Inquisitor) but instead of arguing the point I raised decided to attack a point I had not made about the Inquisition as an organisation which had nothing to do with what I was or have subsequently been talking about.

You are misconstruing what I am saying, deliberately or otherwise. and to explain, again, what I said was, is that a single Inquisitor, can, at times, be on his own, unsupported and alone and despite their theoretical power they are, at the end of the day, just one person and in the depths of a hive, surrounded by half mad, highly dangerous underhive scum bristling with weapons, who wouldn't know an Inquisitor from asump rat, have all the authoirty in the universe ain't gonna be much good when you can just be shot and dumped in the wastes.

On the other hand, the Adeptus Arbites (feared even in the underhive to continue my example above), who have a remit that can extend all the way up to the High Lords, as with an Inquisitor, and hence my original point that they have almost as much authority as an Inquisitor because they can investigate and prosecute anybody and everybody, go around in force with the manpower and firepower to enforce their authority there and then and sometimes an Inquisitor just can't do that.

You have also put words in my mouth, saying I have said things which I have not in a deliberately provocative manner and that too I find to be silly.

Adieu.

Oh man. The thing is that I've already clarified this for you. But I can do some review for you, as wll: Comparing the entire Arbites organization against a lone Inquistor is NOT what I was doing. I have been talking about the Inquisition as an organization. In fact, a point I have made more than once is that not all Inquisitors even operate Eisenhorn-style. Sorry that this has been so frustrating for you but I don't see why you'd expect that I would just automatically agree with your dismissal of my post when you still haven't seemed to grasp it.

Eisenhorn's approach is relatively unique (or at least very uncommon), and would be considered radical by most by the book Inquisitors. The majority prefer the kick-down-the-door-while-singing-"move bitch, move out the way, move out the way bitch, move out the way" approach.

Melissia wrote:
And anything Marines can do in the espionage field, Arbites can probably do better; that's what they're trained to do, every day of their lives, including artificially extended lives in the case of higher ranking and more famous Arbites. They hone their talents to preternatural levels because if they didn't the Imperium would fall apart under the weight of its own corruption from within. Investigation, interrogation, undercover work, gathering connections and informants, infiltrating cults and gangs, and so on are just what the Arbites do, and overall they do it best out of the various human factions. Including the Astartes.

Exception: Alpha Legion. The only Space Marines with a brain.

And I don't think an 8' tall dude would cause THAT much consternation in the populace. After all, without their power armor, most people wouldn't think they are looking at a Space Marine (they are mythical warriors of legend for the average citizen), and there are plenty of mutants or biologically/cybernetically-enhanced hive gangers and the like that could probably (almost) match them in stature.

Omegus wrote:Eisenhorn's approach is relatively unique (or at least very uncommon), and would be considered radical by most by the book Inquisitors. The majority prefer the kick-down-the-door-while-singing-"move bitch, move out the way, move out the way bitch, move out the way" approach.

First of all, I see little to no evidence suggesting that Eisenhorns approach was extremely out of the ordinary. A 'shadowy' inquisitor such as himself is just as common as the 'in yor face' inquisitor that organizes witch hunts on a planet wide scale. There really is no evidence to suggest which approach is more prevalent, as only the 'in yor face' inquisitors would stand out, and there is no data on exactly how many inquisitors are operational at any given time in the 40k universe. At least I can't recall any suggestion of such data.

Secondly, a radical is defined by his beliefs and methods, but not in the way you're thinking. Even if the gutter approach was uncommon, it wouldn't be viewed as radical. Radical is closer to utilising deamonhosts or xenos technology to further the Imperial cause, and by doing so creeping ever closer to the edge of the abyss bordering on heretical.

Thirdly, "Move heretic, move out the way, move out the way heretic, move out the way".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:And I don't think an 8' tall dude would cause THAT much consternation in the populace. After all, without their power armor, most people wouldn't think they are looking at a Space Marine (they are mythical warriors of legend for the average citizen), and there are plenty of mutants or biologically/cybernetically-enhanced hive gangers and the like that could probably (almost) match them in stature.

I think there was a case of this, where an exiled Imperial Fist (or some sort) ended up as a henchman for an Inquisitor, minus his armour. I think the book may have been called 'Inquisition Wars'? Regardless, although he wasn't recognised widely as a space marine by the populace he intereacted with, he was very much viewed as a freak and definitely wasn't suitable for many or most forms of infiltration/espionage/ect.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

First of all, I see little to no evidence suggesting that Eisenhorns approach was extremely out of the ordinary.

How about the book itself, where he encounters that puritan Inquisitor (whose name escapes me at the moment) who viewed Eisenhorn's methods with disdain, and indeed suspected Eisenhorn's methods as indication of radical leanings, and Eisenhorn's inner monologue confirmed that the majority of the Inquisition would agree with that Inquisitor (whose name still escapes me, dammit). And the fact that all the sneaking around and subterfuge also got a hardcore Witch Hunter on Eisenhorn's ass, and he was constantly being accused by various high-ranking members of the Inquisition of radicalism, and Eisenhorn's reclusive nature made those charges easier to stick.

And Eisenhorn's methods eventually DID lead to him being very much a radical, by any definition you may wish to apply. Not to judge the man, of course, since I agree with Ravenor's statement in the last book of the trilogy that radicalism is inevitable.

THe Puritan Inquistor was a Witch Hunter I believe, and they are far more attracted towards the notion of 'purging' entire cities than Ordo Xenos or Deamon Hunters which often seek out very small cults dealing in these very dastardly practices, whereas a Witch Hunters work is often of a more widespread nature and easier to combat through the use of force rather than guile. Furthermore, Eiserhorn was reflecting on his mission to rescue the Psyker children and, being a psyker himself, many puritan forces were very much against him. He said his methods meant he was rarely around to defend himself or his actions from his accusers, not that his approach was extremely rare.

That said, the idea of classing the 'typical' Inquisitor is ridiculous. Due to their very nature they are vastly independant as are thier methods. The only thing every inquisitor will agree on is that heresy is bad. And even then, some inquisitors will say "Yes of course, but what kind of heresy are we talking about here?"

Voke was Ordo Xenos, same as Eisenhorn.

And the Witch Hunter wasn't even an Inquisitor.

Witch Finder* Tantalid.

He was an Ecclesiarchal operative, not Inquisitorial.

Kanluwen wrote:Voke was Ordo Xenos, same as Eisenhorn.

THANK YOU, that was his name.

Kanluwen wrote:Witch Finder* Tantalid.

He was an Ecclesiarchal operative, not Inquisitorial.

Ah, my mistake.

Then I really don't recall the conversation you are talking about.

Voke put down Eisenhorn's methods in "Xenos", while they were on Gudrun. Eisenhorn jumped Heldane when he and Voke tried to break into their room.

Witchfinder Tantalid was in I want to say "Malleus" before they went to Cadia.

Raven Guard are said in the Codex to be great at infiltration and general sneakiness... but I take that to be within a combat sense, say, observing the enemy from a ridge or flanking them to execute a sudden strike.

I can't really imagine anyone other than the Alpha Legion being capable of living amongst the enemy...

Henners91 wrote:Raven Guard are said in the Codex to be great at infiltration and general sneakiness... but I take that to be within a combat sense, say, observing the enemy from a ridge or flanking them to execute a sudden strike.

I can't really imagine anyone other than the Alpha Legion being capable of living amongst the enemy...

Nothing special about the Alpha Legion. Not like their shorter or something. They just choose that approach.

And they act alone. It's definitely not a James Bond style infiltration such as sneaking into a building, winning at cards and getting the girl. They just build a swathe of followers and act through them.

If its ok we can get Dark Lord Sean to write down fluff for the Adeptus Arbites. That way he can answer our questions.

I'm going to assume you were joking there, Asherian.

EDIT: What I mean is, while DLS is a very gifted writer and his work is very entertaining he is most definitely NOT some sort of judge or creator of fluff. He writes fanfic. Good fanfic yes, but it's still fanfic, not fluff that can be analysed and brought in as evidence.

Emperors Faithful wrote:And they act alone. It's definitely not a James Bond style infiltration such as sneaking into a building, winning at cards and getting the girl. They just build a swathe of followers and act through them.

They kinda do. I could see an Alpha Legionaire drinking a martini.

Legion. Alpha legion.
So I'm guessing the femme fatalle would be a radical inquisitor or SoB of some sort?

*and thus began the foundations of a truly epic piece of fluff that would dwarf any previous BL publications...*