Where has it gone? Forget las its all about the bullets.
Questions:
Good or bad?
who still uses it?
why and when was it scrapped?

1: Bad. Solid ammunition takes up more space, weight, and resources to produce than energy for lasbolts.
2: Low-tech worlds, Space Marines.
3: See 1.

Solid ammunition in the Imperium is used a lot more on lower tech worlds and more by civilians, criminal elements. Las-weapons being more the reserve tech of the military. Since energy packs are more efficient than making bullets/shells. With exceptions of course. Also the imperial navy on boarding actions use shotguns that fire monofilament shells so as not to blow holes in windows/walls and cause depressurization. Also bolt-guns by todays standards are more like miniature magazine fed grenade launchers than firearms of our time.

Some regements of IG use autoguns which fire solid rounds. The downsides mentioned I think are as follows;

More wieght
More space taken
Supply issues
They jam alot more oftern than lasguns (do they even jam!?!)

On the upside, the solid amuntion cause bleeding and thus you can cause an enemy to die by bleeding or infection, where lasbolts caturise the wound sealing it so it heals quicker, dosn't shed blood and isn't at risk of infection.

Its also a question of size. The IG fields alot of artillery pieces and heavy weapons throwing shells at the target.
Smaller arms are usually lasguns, but its possible to use autoguns with the stats of the lasgun too.
So personal wargear of the masses has to be standardized and the lasguns and energypacks are standardised by the adeptus munitorum. Thus you get those weapons everywhere. Different weapons would be local variants. Maybe houseguards or PDF use them.

The "Munitorum Manual" is a nice source of available ammo and the correct form to order it.

The majority of civilians likely use "stub" weaponry-- IE, non-caseless solid round weapons, basically like modern firearms. Autoguns are caseless and aren't as common as, say, stub automatics.

Do bolters count as solid ammo?

Take a look at Dark Heresy the RPG game's equipment lists. Solid ammo guns everywhere.

The autogun, once everywhere in 40k, is a solid ammo assault rifle.

The Heavy Stubber is a heavy support machine gun.

The Autocannon is a giant solid ammo gun.

Yep. Bolter shells are quite solid. But bolters are hardly efficient weapons for a standing army of untold billions.

Well, it is easy to produce... and it still kills.

Bolter shells are actually more like tiny self propelled missiles or rockets:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter_Ammunition

I remember the days where the Orks had Bolters too, instead of shootas or whatever you call it :_)

@Melissia: well, efficient or not they are quite used in the game for Imperial forces.

IronChaos wrote:Well, it is easy to produce...

No, it is not. Bolter shells are EXPENSIVE.

Let's check Dark Heresy, which is about the only thing that discusses actual prices.

A standard stubber/autogun round would cost about 1 throne (standard Imperial coinage, probably equivalent to one pound) for twenty bullets. . A standard CIVILIAN boltgun round would cost roughly 16 thrones for a single bullet. Civilian boltgun rounds aren't as effective as military ones, and certainly not as much as Astartes grade ones.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Bolter shells are actually more like tiny self propelled missiles or rockets:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter_Ammunition

That's why I asked if this mini-rockets count as solid ammo. A normal rocket wouldn't, would it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

IronChaos wrote:Well, it is easy to produce...

No, it is not. Bolter shells are EXPENSIVE.

A standard stubber/autogun round would cost about 1 throne (standard Imperial coinage, probably equivalent to one pound) for twenty bullets. A standard CIVILIAN boltgun round would cost roughly 16 thrones for a single bullet. Civilian boltgun rounds aren't as effective as military ones, and certainly not as much as Astartes grade ones.

I think he is talking about solid ammo in general. Like stub guns from Necromunda and the like.

Erasoketa wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Bolter shells are actually more like tiny self propelled missiles or rockets:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Bolter_Ammunition

That's why I asked if this mini-rockets count as solid ammo. A normal rocket wouldn't, would it?

No, I agree, I wouldn't class bolter ammo as solid ammo in the same way. Bolter tech is essentially missile launching.

A lasgun power pack costs 15 thrones, but can be recharged a limitless number of times (as long as you don't throw it in a fire), and depending on the source, it has anywhere from sixty shots per pack to several hundred. And lasguns + power packs are designed specifically to be easy and cheap to produce. The only reason anyone uses autoguns is because lasguns aren't available for whatever reason, or personal preference (They like the kick it gives, like Orks do, or like the rounds ripping flesh, like khornate cultists do).

some solid shot weapons used currently.


Autocannons. 120mm rounds fired at a reletivly high rate of fire.

Assault cannon. a multi-barreled autocannon using slightly smaller caliber rounds, but has a greatly increased rate of fire.


Stubbers. these i imagine are throwbacks to the .50 cals of the 21st millenium.


Civilians use Autoguns and Autopistols. same effectivness as Lasguns in game terms, but ammo is bulkier and can't be replenished in the field.

Grey Templar wrote:some solid shot weapons used currently.


Autocannons. 120mm rounds fired at a reletivly high rate of fire.

Assault cannon. a multi-barreled autocannon using slightly smaller caliber rounds, but has a greatly increased rate of fire.


Stubbers. these i imagine are throwbacks to the .50 cals of the 21st millenium.


Civilians use Autoguns and Autopistols. same effectivness as Lasguns in game terms, but ammo is bulkier and can't be replenished in the field.

120mm! their shells certainly do not look that calibre

OP: if fluff follows GW reasoning then the Imperium did away with most solid round weapons to save on paper work. Autoguns=lasguns Auto pistols=las pistols.

Grey Templar wrote:some solid shot weapons used currently.


Autocannons. 120mm rounds fired at a reletivly high rate of fire.

Assault cannon. a multi-barreled autocannon using slightly smaller caliber rounds, but has a greatly increased rate of fire.


Stubbers. these i imagine are throwbacks to the .50 cals of the 21st millenium.


Civilians use Autoguns and Autopistols. same effectivness as Lasguns in game terms, but ammo is bulkier and can't be replenished in the field.

Nope, Civilians typically use stubbersa nd stub pistols (either stub semi-automatics or stub revolvers). They are like autoguns, but they're more prone to jamming as they aren't caseless.

Melissia wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:some solid shot weapons used currently.


Autocannons. 120mm rounds fired at a reletivly high rate of fire.

Assault cannon. a multi-barreled autocannon using slightly smaller caliber rounds, but has a greatly increased rate of fire.


Stubbers. these i imagine are throwbacks to the .50 cals of the 21st millenium.


Civilians use Autoguns and Autopistols. same effectivness as Lasguns in game terms, but ammo is bulkier and can't be replenished in the field.

Nope, Civilians typically use stubbersa nd stub pistols (either stub semi-automatics or stub revolvers). They are like autoguns, but they're more prone to jamming as they aren't caseless.

Nope they use Auto AND Stub weapons.

Civilians use whatever is appropriate to the world they come from...

Yes, but stub weapons are cheaper. If you want to go by what is used, technically there are civilian boltguns, too. And lasguns.

But stub weapons are cheaper and easier to make, and there's a wider variety of them.


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Melissia wrote:


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Unless it was a feudal world ruled over by a technologically superior governing caste.

You can't really condense the planets in the 40k imperium into such rigid pigeonholes. The basis of the Imperium in all the fluff since the times of Rogue Trader, is that it's so bloody big that virtually any civilisation of humans on a planet you could come up with exist within it as long as they tow the line and heed the orders of Terra.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Unless it was a feudal world ruled over by a technologically superior governing caste.

You can't really condense the planets in the 40k imperium into such rigid pigeonholes. The basis of the Imperium in all the fluff since the times of Rogue Trader, is that it's so bloody big that virtually any civilisation of humans on a planet you could come up with exist within it as long as they tow the line and heed the orders of Terra.

Definitely stompa. Its likely why I still play.

Well Pros: packsmore of a punch Cons: goes by fast.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Unless it was a feudal world ruled over by a technologically superior governing caste.

You can't really condense the planets in the 40k imperium into such rigid pigeonholes. The basis of the Imperium in all the fluff since the times of Rogue Trader, is that it's so bloody big that virtually any civilisation of humans on a planet you could come up with exist within it as long as they tow the line and heed the orders of Terra.

+1 to this. People seem to get so caught up in how to say NO to things that they seem to forget that the whole point of 40K is that you can come up with a reason to say YES to almost any idea. That's why its my favorite fictional universe. Almost anything you can think of exists somewhere in the galaxy.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Unless it was a feudal world ruled over by a technologically superior governing caste.

You can't really condense the planets in the 40k imperium into such rigid pigeonholes. The basis of the Imperium in all the fluff since the times of Rogue Trader, is that it's so bloody big that virtually any civilisation of humans on a planet you could come up with exist within it as long as they tow the line and heed the orders of Terra.

+1 to this. People seem to get so caught up in how to say NO to things that they seem to forget that the whole point of 40K is that you can come up with a reason to say YES to almost any idea. That's why its my favorite fictional universe. Almost anything you can think of exists somewhere in the galaxy.

Greenery and birds have become all the rage amongst the nobility of the Salwal sector, in response the entire 20 billion population of the planet Buwal as been turned over to the production of Pink Lawn Flamingos and AstroTurf in order to meet the demand. Life there is actually somewhat easier there than on other industrial worlds, as the production of these products puts out relatively low pollution. There is one major threat they must deal with, however. The entire southern continent of the planet is undeveloped due to being overrun with an aggressive species of giant fire-breathing ducks. The planet has a slightly wobbly axis and for 3 months every 5 years the climate shifts slightly and the birds migrate. At that time great terror spreads through the cities as feathered bodies blot out the sun, deafening quacking fills the air and huge gouts of flame burn millions alive.

Chongara wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Unless it was a feudal world ruled over by a technologically superior governing caste.

You can't really condense the planets in the 40k imperium into such rigid pigeonholes. The basis of the Imperium in all the fluff since the times of Rogue Trader, is that it's so bloody big that virtually any civilisation of humans on a planet you could come up with exist within it as long as they tow the line and heed the orders of Terra.

+1 to this. People seem to get so caught up in how to say NO to things that they seem to forget that the whole point of 40K is that you can come up with a reason to say YES to almost any idea. That's why its my favorite fictional universe. Almost anything you can think of exists somewhere in the galaxy.

Greenery and birds have become all the rage amongst the nobility of the Salwal sector, in response the entire 20 billion population of the planet Buwal as been turned over to the production of Pink Lawn Flamingos and AstroTurf in order to meet the demand. Life there is actually somewhat easier there than on other industrial worlds, as the production of these products puts out relatively low pollution. There is one major threat they must deal with, however. The entire southern continent of the planet is undeveloped due to being overrun with an aggressive species of giant fire-breathing ducks. The planet has a slightly wobbly axis and for 3 months every 5 years the climate shifts slightly and the birds migrate. At that time great terror spreads through the cities as feathered bodies blot out the sun, deafening quacking fills the air and huge gouts of flame burn millions alive.

And that is only marginally less ridiculous than this...



So, sure, have your fire breathing giant ducks on the plastic flamingo forgeworld and I'll have the space vikings with wolverine claws riding giant obese cats.

Chongara wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Unless it was a feudal world ruled over by a technologically superior governing caste.

You can't really condense the planets in the 40k imperium into such rigid pigeonholes. The basis of the Imperium in all the fluff since the times of Rogue Trader, is that it's so bloody big that virtually any civilisation of humans on a planet you could come up with exist within it as long as they tow the line and heed the orders of Terra.

+1 to this. People seem to get so caught up in how to say NO to things that they seem to forget that the whole point of 40K is that you can come up with a reason to say YES to almost any idea. That's why its my favorite fictional universe. Almost anything you can think of exists somewhere in the galaxy.

Greenery and birds have become all the rage amongst the nobility of the Salwal sector, in response the entire 20 billion population of the planet Buwal as been turned over to the production of Pink Lawn Flamingos and AstroTurf in order to meet the demand. Life there is actually somewhat easier there than on other industrial worlds, as the production of these products puts out relatively low pollution. There is one major threat they must deal with, however. The entire southern continent of the planet is undeveloped due to being overrun with an aggressive species of giant fire-breathing ducks. The planet has a slightly wobbly axis and for 3 months every 5 years the climate shifts slightly and the birds migrate. At that time great terror spreads through the cities as feathered bodies blot out the sun, deafening quacking fills the air and huge gouts of flame burn millions alive.

Well, some Forge World has to make the Plastic Pink Flamingos!

Solid rounds:Bad to be hit by as there is more chance of bleeding to death
Non-Solid rounds:Good for siege situations ammo easy to store and re-supply also reletively non-volitile

Chongara wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Unless it was a feudal world ruled over by a technologically superior governing caste.

You can't really condense the planets in the 40k imperium into such rigid pigeonholes. The basis of the Imperium in all the fluff since the times of Rogue Trader, is that it's so bloody big that virtually any civilisation of humans on a planet you could come up with exist within it as long as they tow the line and heed the orders of Terra.

+1 to this. People seem to get so caught up in how to say NO to things that they seem to forget that the whole point of 40K is that you can come up with a reason to say YES to almost any idea. That's why its my favorite fictional universe. Almost anything you can think of exists somewhere in the galaxy.

Greenery and birds have become all the rage amongst the nobility of the Salwal sector, in response the entire 20 billion population of the planet Buwal as been turned over to the production of Pink Lawn Flamingos and AstroTurf in order to meet the demand. Life there is actually somewhat easier there than on other industrial worlds, as the production of these products puts out relatively low pollution. There is one major threat they must deal with, however. The entire southern continent of the planet is undeveloped due to being overrun with an aggressive species of giant fire-breathing ducks. The planet has a slightly wobbly axis and for 3 months every 5 years the climate shifts slightly and the birds migrate. At that time great terror spreads through the cities as feathered bodies blot out the sun, deafening quacking fills the air and huge gouts of flame burn millions alive.

This world is officially stolen for use in my next Dark Heresy campaign.

FeistierErmine wrote:

Chongara wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Melissia wrote:


Naturally, feudal worlds would be relegated to black powder weapons at most.

Unless it was a feudal world ruled over by a technologically superior governing caste.

You can't really condense the planets in the 40k imperium into such rigid pigeonholes. The basis of the Imperium in all the fluff since the times of Rogue Trader, is that it's so bloody big that virtually any civilisation of humans on a planet you could come up with exist within it as long as they tow the line and heed the orders of Terra.

+1 to this. People seem to get so caught up in how to say NO to things that they seem to forget that the whole point of 40K is that you can come up with a reason to say YES to almost any idea. That's why its my favorite fictional universe. Almost anything you can think of exists somewhere in the galaxy.

Greenery and birds have become all the rage amongst the nobility of the Salwal sector, in response the entire 20 billion population of the planet Buwal as been turned over to the production of Pink Lawn Flamingos and AstroTurf in order to meet the demand. Life there is actually somewhat easier there than on other industrial worlds, as the production of these products puts out relatively low pollution. There is one major threat they must deal with, however. The entire southern continent of the planet is undeveloped due to being overrun with an aggressive species of giant fire-breathing ducks. The planet has a slightly wobbly axis and for 3 months every 5 years the climate shifts slightly and the birds migrate. At that time great terror spreads through the cities as feathered bodies blot out the sun, deafening quacking fills the air and huge gouts of flame burn millions alive.

This world is officially stolen for use in my next Dark Heresy campaign.

I know, best 40K planet ever.

First Aid 101 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn (WARNING: Graphic) we're looking at the one listed as fourth degree (Full-Thickness) minimum. So, no you don't get your nice clean cautorised wound I don't care what the Black Library thinks about las weapons.

Let's compare them side by side now shall we?:

Maintenance\Life time: Solid round ammo requires cleaning even after use in ideal conditions so that the moving parts are clear of debris including that which is left by the burnt excelerant of the rounds it fires and the shearing of the mechanical parts. Also periodic replacement of any moving part due to wear is to be expected. Las weapons have no moving parts so the cleaning required is minimal. Replacement of parts due to wear is unlikley to be an issue given proper design considerations.

Ammo: Even for caseless rounds, production of ammunition for 'hard ammo' requires an enormous ammount of metal and propellant and must be done either slowley by hand or in an intact factory. Giving a soldier more ammo also results in them carrying more weight. Las weapons can be recharged in a fire if need be otherwise any power souce could be adapted to recharge the unit freeing the Guardsmen for other duties. A fully charged magazine would weigh the same as an empty one.

Double stacked sickle style magazine for hard rounds hold about 30 shots. I believe in the Inquisitor Rulebook the Las weapons held power for 60 shots.

Hard Rounds require an atmosphere to burn propellent. Las rounds are not bound by such a constraint.

Accuracy: Hard Rounds are affected by wind, manufactoring defects of the round as well as the barrel, Internal+Transitional+External and Terminal ballistics and range\travel time. The 'kickback' or muzzle climb after each shot is likley to throw off alignment with the target. Las weapons although still suseptible to any manufactoring defects do not have a physical round to be affected by any of the other conditions mentioned above, and would not have a kickback. The projectile also travels at the speed of light.

Damage: Physical rounds rely mostly on hydro-shock for killing power, that is the round must penetrate through the target (Which wastes a lot of its energy) to be effective. Adding more power to the round to increase damage increases the weight of each bullet, the size, the amount of propellent needed and the kickback of each shot. Doing so also requires retooling of the barrel and must be done at the time of manufactoring of the round. Las rounds transfer their energy into heat on contact with the target losing only what energy is needed to satisfy entropy. Adding power to each shot does not increase the weight of the round or the kickback to the user in any way. Adding power is done by adjusting the reostat on the weapon.

Solid round weapons are also suseptible to jamming or slamfire due to their moving parts. Las weapons are free from this problem.

I swear I wrote this better on the Black Library Forum about a year ago but they took it down and I don't think I saved it :,(

Also note that Lasguns have variable power. For example, Korpsmen of the Death Korps have their guns set to fire at maximum power, but only get 25 shots per power pack (and they carry 2-4 powerpacks per man). At full power, they could blow the arm straight off an ork.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:First Aid 101 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn (WARNING: Graphic) we're looking at the one listed as fourth degree (Full-Thickness) minimum. So, no you don't get your nice clean cautorised wound I don't care what the Black Library thinks about las weapons.

Agreed. Pain would be as great if not even greater then that from a slug. But I think the systemic shock by a bullet would be still higher, especially by high velocity modern firearms like they are used by the military.

Let's compare them side by side now shall we?:

Maintenance\Life time: Solid round ammo requires cleaning even after use in ideal conditions so that the moving parts are clear of debris including that which is left by the burnt excelerant of the rounds it fires and the shearing of the mechanical parts. Also periodic replacement of any moving part due to wear is to be expected. Las weapons have no moving parts so the cleaning required is minimal. Replacement of parts due to wear is unlikley to be an issue given proper design considerations.

Agreed again. Although I would think that the fucusing mechanism of a las weapon would be quite prone to misalign itself under battlefield conditions, so there would be a fair amount of maintance still be required.

Ammo: Even for caseless rounds, production of ammunition for 'hard ammo' requires an enormous ammount of metal and propellant and must be done either slowley by hand or in an intact factory. Giving a soldier more ammo also results in them carrying more weight. Las weapons can be recharged in a fire if need be otherwise any power souce could be adapted to recharge the unit freeing the Guardsmen for other duties. A fully charged magazine would weigh the same as an empty one.

Double stacked sickle style magazine for hard rounds hold about 30 shots. I believe in the Inquisitor Rulebook the Las weapons held power for 60 shots.

True, but an ammo manufracture line is not too complicated to build and run. And charging an ammo pack in a fire would yield a limited load and render it unusable afterwards, according to the fluff.

Hard Rounds require an atmosphere to burn propellent. Las rounds are not bound by such a constraint.

Yes, but adding oxygen (or rather oxidated compounds) to the propellant mix is not hard and already is done for some specialised rounds in real life.

Accuracy: Hard Rounds are affected by wind, manufactoring defects of the round as well as the barrel, Internal+Transitional+External and Terminal ballistics and range\travel time. The 'kickback' or muzzle climb after each shot is likley to throw off alignment with the target. Las weapons although still suseptible to any manufactoring defects do not have a physical round to be affected by any of the other conditions mentioned above, and would not have a kickback. The projectile also travels at the speed of light.

True. Also training with a Las or any other non-ballistic weapon would be easier - no need to compensate on long ranges etc. But for some reason fluff tells us that Imperial Las rifles do have a kickback (how that is possible, beats me. Even the pressure of ionized air shouldn't be detectable, but hey even physics are grimdark in the 41st Millenium :-))

Damage: Physical rounds rely mostly on hydro-shock for killing power, that is the round must penetrate through the target (Which wastes a lot of its energy) to be effective. Adding more power to the round to increase damage increases the weight of each bullet, the size, the amount of propellent needed and the kickback of each shot. Doing so also requires retooling of the barrel and must be done at the time of manufactoring of the round. Las rounds transfer their energy into heat on contact with the target losing only what energy is needed to satisfy entropy. Adding power to each shot does not increase the weight of the round or the kickback to the user in any way. Adding power is done by adjusting the reostat on the weapon.

Still, a Las Bolt that is not immediatly lethal will never have the same stopping power like a bullet has. Especially the systemic shock alone is known to have felled people that just got glancing or flesh wounds. See the abyssimal M-16 and its poor performance for what a lack of stopping power means. Add bleeding, possibly fragmentation etc. to create more work for enemy medics. So this point goes to solid slugs imo.

Solid round weapons are also suseptible to jamming or slamfire due to their moving parts. Las weapons are free from this problem.

True, although one would assume that they probably will have problems of their own (corrosion of contacts comes to mind, focus-misalignment etc.) Tech is never flawless, especially not in 40K :-D

I swear I wrote this better on the Black Library Forum about a year ago but they took it down and I don't think I saved it :,(

They where jelous and afraid of your scathing critique! Kidding aside: This was a very good post anyway, mate :-)

ComputerGeek01 wrote:

Hard Rounds require an atmosphere to burn propellent.

No they don't. The oxidiser is in the propellant.

Plus, bullets can go through mirrors.

When considering solid ammunition (5.56mm,7.62mm,.50 cal etc) in my experience,the worst injuries are the ones you can't see...

5.56mm was designed to incapacitate, to increase stresses on the enemy's resources i.e a severly wounded soldier would take two others to carry, then he would require medical treatment etc. Multiply this 15 fold and you have alot of troops taken out of the equasion.

7.62mm is good at it's job which is to kill, as proven during the Falklands war when the SLR was the basic weapn of choice for us Brits. Also the GPMG is still used as fire-support despite being nearly 40 years old.

The 5.56mm travels at around 3000m/s, but is unstable during flight. More often than not, it tumbles and will almost always hit the casualty facing backwards, meaning a larger surface area is hitting the target. This means more damage is caused as the energy is dispersed into the target:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/gel2.jpg

As you can see the large bulge to the right of the gel block is the largest, as the energy is released. Imagine this is the human body, the large cavity caused in a vascular area such as the abdomen mean horrific damage to tissues and organs. The sudden increase in volume causes a vacuum, sucking in any debris that was following in the rounds wake. This vacuum then closes in on itself, trapping said debris etc inside the tissues. Not only does necrosis start almost immediately, but the infection caused is almost instantaneous. That doesn't even take into account blood loss and bone damage.

The thing with 5.56mm is that the exit wound may not be on the opposite side of the entry wound. I have had a casualty where he had taken a round to the right leg,the round travelled up the femur, up the torso and exited out the top of the right shoulder.

So is solid ammunition good. Yes. It does it's job perfectly. Obviously the bigger the round, the more damage caused. .50 cal only has to pass within 1/2 of an inch to remove your arm from your body.It doesn't need to actually hit you.

@ Bash: Good summary

OT: Shouldn't that be "BashtheBoche"? Being a Fritz myself, I just noticed ;-) (puts monocle back)

Cheers, Mate

Hastus_Drake wrote:@ Bash: Good summary

OT: Shouldn't that be "BashtheBoche"? Being a Fritz myself, I just noticed ;-) (puts monocle back)

Cheers, Mate

I didn't want to offend any box-heads. So I spelt it as I heard it. Ded klever me

Thanks mate.

The marines use solid bolter shells

bolter rounds arn't solid, they explode.

by solid the thread means a single lump of metal that does damage by the transfer of Kinetic energy to the target upon impact. Resulting in blunt force trauma, tearing of affected flesh, and Hydrostatic shock.

Chongara wrote:
Greenery and birds have become all the rage amongst the nobility of the Salwal sector, in response the entire 20 billion population of the planet Buwal as been turned over to the production of Pink Lawn Flamingos and AstroTurf in order to meet the demand. Life there is actually somewhat easier there than on other industrial worlds, as the production of these products puts out relatively low pollution. There is one major threat they must deal with, however. The entire southern continent of the planet is undeveloped due to being overrun with an aggressive species of giant fire-breathing ducks. The planet has a slightly wobbly axis and for 3 months every 5 years the climate shifts slightly and the birds migrate. At that time great terror spreads through the cities as feathered bodies blot out the sun, deafening quacking fills the air and huge gouts of flame burn millions alive.

You sir, have made my day. Siggied if you don't mind.

I've just built some IG, and given them forgeworld autoguns, so I clicked on this topic.

I prefer 'autoguns' for two reasons: one, assault rifles are cool, matter of fact anything that fires bullets is cool. (someone was saying autoguns use caseless ammo; I don't think this is the case, since the rifles I've got have normal ejection ports)

Two, lasguns don't make any sense. They're supposed to be lasers, but all the background treats them more or less like modern rifles. people are described stripping and cleaning them, they have recoil, incoming rounds make a different sound to outgoing, the rounds don't go at the speed of light - in fact, wouldn't a laser be a beam, rather than a travelling projectile. Anyway, I'm not a physicist, but lasguns make no sense, they're basically made up science-as-magic.

if and when Laser based weapons begin to be used they will rely even more on regular cleaning as any dirt on the lense or inside the chamber will result in complete failure to form a laser(or at least a significant delay and/or lower power)

and Las weapons are actually plasma weapons. a lascannon/rifle/pistol fires a small plasma pulse down a magnetic envelope that upon contact with solid matter burns its way through. this is why there is recoil and they don't travel at the speed of light.

Basicly, projectile rounds=better anti-organism, more powerful, doesn't have to touch you to kill. Used in autocannons, heavy stubbers, stub guns, autoguns, shotguns and carnifxes. Used on poor, low-tech world guard regis, by citizens, by vets (shotguns), by HS gunners, HWS, IN, Apothecaries and some PDFs.
Las=Extremely reliable, more ammo, better anti-armour, quieter. Used in lasguns, laspistols, multi-las, turbo-lasers and lascannons. Used by guard.

Kilkrazy wrote:

ComputerGeek01 wrote:

Hard Rounds require an atmosphere to burn propellent.

No they don't. The oxidiser is in the propellant.

Plus, bullets can go through mirrors.

LOL, mirrors are the bane of laser guns! If you want to rebel against the Imperium you should just make your armour out of mirrors.

ooo, does that mean Shiny marines are immune to Las fire?

would be awsome if so.

Yes, I think we've discovered the secret of the Grey Knights power.

Grey Templar wrote:
and Las weapons are actually plasma weapons. a lascannon/rifle/pistol fires a small plasma pulse down a magnetic envelope that upon contact with solid matter burns its way through. this is why there is recoil and they don't travel at the speed of light.

I'm not that much of a science guy (and I'm not having a go at you or anything) so is this real science, or made-up fiction science? Did you read this in a warhammer book, or is any of that legitimate physics?

iI realise theres a lot of other stuff in the game I suspend disbelief for, but for some reason I dislike the laser as a personal weapon idea.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
and Las weapons are actually plasma weapons. a lascannon/rifle/pistol fires a small plasma pulse down a magnetic envelope that upon contact with solid matter burns its way through. this is why there is recoil and they don't travel at the speed of light.

I'm not that much of a science guy (and I'm not having a go at you or anything) so is this real science, or made-up fiction science? Did you read this in a warhammer book, or is any of that legitimate physics?

iI realise theres a lot of other stuff in the game I suspend disbelief for, but for some reason I dislike the laser as a personal weapon idea.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly - I understand where you are coming from, with the idea of laser weapons. If you take modern laser cutting tools, they require enormous amounts of constant power, and a un-interrupted beam. Trying to transfer that across to a rugged, soldier proof weapon that is supposedly simple as an AK47 to maintain and manufacture is beyond anything we have here present that is believable.

But OTOH, is'nt that why we play toy soldiers, so that we CAN have laser weapons that anyone can use,from feral savages to planetary aristocracy?

That's absolutely true.

It is why threads like this are a bit pointless.

The fluff is just for fun, and not much of it is justified by real science.

Bash the Bosh wrote:

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
and Las weapons are actually plasma weapons. a lascannon/rifle/pistol fires a small plasma pulse down a magnetic envelope that upon contact with solid matter burns its way through. this is why there is recoil and they don't travel at the speed of light.

I'm not that much of a science guy (and I'm not having a go at you or anything) so is this real science, or made-up fiction science? Did you read this in a warhammer book, or is any of that legitimate physics?

iI realise theres a lot of other stuff in the game I suspend disbelief for, but for some reason I dislike the laser as a personal weapon idea.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly - I understand where you are coming from, with the idea of laser weapons. If you take modern laser cutting tools, they require enormous amounts of constant power, and a un-interrupted beam. Trying to transfer that across to a rugged, soldier proof weapon that is supposedly simple as an AK47 to maintain and manufacture is beyond anything we have here present that is believable.

But OTOH, is'nt that why we play toy soldiers, so that we CAN have laser weapons that anyone can use,from feral savages to planetary aristocracy?

True enough. I suppose the point is you can arm your little soldiers with whatever you want, so long as you still think they're cool. None of the mechanics, physics or logistics of the background make sense anyway, and after all, a 1" resin rifle isn't any more effective on the battlefield than a 1" plastic laser!

Exactly. As long as YOU like the way YOUR little plastic men look, who honestly gives a monkey's chuff whether the plastic guns they carry go 'pew-pew' or 'brrrrp'.
As KillKrazy said, it's there for fun. It's not real, well for 38'000 years its not

The point of this was to see your opinion on how good my little mans gun is whether it does go 'Pew-pew' or 'Brrrpp' or 'Swooshhhhhhh-BANG' and not based on real life

They go "snap-crack"!

KamikazeCanuck wrote:They go "snap-crack"!

Probably more like "snap-crackle" then immediately followed up by a "pop"

okay, well apart from the science fiction, I was under the impression that there was a clear logistical distinction between las and solid slug weaponry. Las weapons are expensive to produce but very, very cheap to maintain, while solid slug weapons are very cheap to make, but are very expensive to maintain. A shotgun is basically a steel tube, but you have to pay for ammunition in perpetuity, while lasguns are really expensive, but once you ship one off, you don't need to worry about supplying it at all for the whole life of the weapon.

As such, the imperial guard gets lasguns because supplying the army in such far-flung places is incredibly challenging, making the usefulness of a no-maintenance weapon clearly worth the boost to downpayment. Space marines, on the other hand, are always well-supplied, which means that they can walk around with their $40,000-per-second assault cannons and never worry about running out of ammo.

The only other class of people are those who would like to have weapons with no maintenance, but simply cannot affort the up-front cost of las weapons, such as most civilians and more primitive worlds.

actually Las weaponry is the cheapest to produce and arm billions of guardsmen with(Old Guard codex)

Autoguns are only given to regiments that come from worlds that don't have the ability to produce Lasguns.

Autoguns are also avoided because they require shipments of Ammunition, shipments that could be carrying Food, Basilisk shells, Lemun Russ fuel, more guardsmen......

the only supply directly associated with the operation of lasguns would be gun oil, replacement weapons, and power packs(they try to keep these to a minimum.



If the Impierium could afford to give every guardsmen a Bolter they would likely do so.

MenOfTanith wrote:....and not based on real life

Thats my point about this thread. People are trying to justify how a las-gun works using modern physics, talk of optic lenses, power-sources, the connection to modern weaponry etc.

Grey Templar had just said that Las-guns are cheap to produce: How much would it cost for the US Army's weapons division,using today's technology, to design,trial and produce Las-guns? Trillions?

The only fact is that Las-guns are not real. Therefore we pretend using stories that the lovely people from under the great umbrella of Games-Workshop have written for us.

This not an attempt to de-rail or upset. Just fighting the corner for Solid ammunition,as the OP stated

Orks do. And i wonder? do shuriken weapons count as solid?

garret wrote:do shuriken weapons count as solid?

Well from what I've read in Codex Eldar:Shuriken weapons fire thin discs at sub-sonic speed. So in my opinion, yes shurikens count as solid ammunition.

Bash the Bosh wrote:

MenOfTanith wrote:....and not based on real life

Thats my point about this thread. People are trying to justify how a las-gun works using modern physics, talk of optic lenses, power-sources, the connection to modern weaponry etc.

Grey Templar had just said that Las-guns are cheap to produce: How much would it cost for the US Army's weapons division,using today's technology, to design,trial and produce Las-guns? Trillions?

The only fact is that Las-guns are not real. Therefore we pretend using stories that the lovely people from under the great umbrella of Games-Workshop have written for us.

This not an attempt to de-rail or upset. Just fighting the corner for Solid ammunition,as the OP stated

the thing is,

since 40k is really the real world in the far future.

we can use real world physics to describe things. in fact any Science fiction can be described using real world physics. otherwise the "Science" part of the name would be irrelevent.


now saying that it would cost the U.S. weapons division trillions to produce lasguns is true, BUT it has no bearing because we don't have the technology.

Lasguns are cheap in the 41st millenium because the design is easy to mass produce and they already have the design schematics.

the U.S. army doesn't have the schematics. it's actually RnD that costs billions of dollars. actual production is really the cost of the matierials + Labor + shipping so its not anymore then it would cost a civilian company(as opposed to a military contractor) to produce the same item for public use(assuming said item would ever be legal for civilian ownership)


When we are talking about how cheap said weapons are to make we are talking in terms of the 41st millenium not the 21st.

Sorry, being anal here, but it's currently the 2nd Millenium (AD of course) atm.

That sort of thing bugs me.
I also spell-check hatemail

S_P

Grey Templar wrote:

Bash the Bosh wrote:

MenOfTanith wrote:....and not based on real life

Thats my point about this thread. People are trying to justify how a las-gun works using modern physics, talk of optic lenses, power-sources, the connection to modern weaponry etc.

Grey Templar had just said that Las-guns are cheap to produce: How much would it cost for the US Army's weapons division,using today's technology, to design,trial and produce Las-guns? Trillions?

The only fact is that Las-guns are not real. Therefore we pretend using stories that the lovely people from under the great umbrella of Games-Workshop have written for us.

This not an attempt to de-rail or upset. Just fighting the corner for Solid ammunition,as the OP stated

the thing is,

since 40k is really the real world in the far future.

we can use real world physics to describe things. in fact any Science fiction can be described using real world physics. otherwise the "Science" part of the name would be irrelevent.


now saying that it would cost the U.S. weapons division trillions to produce lasguns is true, BUT it has no bearing because we don't have the technology.

Lasguns are cheap in the 41st millenium because the design is easy to mass produce and they already have the design schematics.

the U.S. army doesn't have the schematics. it's actually RnD that costs billions of dollars. actual production is really the cost of the matierials + Labor + shipping so its not anymore then it would cost a civilian company(as opposed to a military contractor) to produce the same item for public use(assuming said item would ever be legal for civilian ownership)


When we are talking about how cheap said weapons are to make we are talking in terms of the 41st millenium not the 21st.

Ok you got me on the Science fiction. Reading back over my post I didn't clarify what I was trying to say. I'm talking about the difference between Science Fiction and Science Fact.

We don't have laser weaponry in todays contempory armed forces. With that I mean standard issue small arms. We only have solid ammunition as the basis for the arguement 'Solid ammuntion: Good or bad' as anything arguing in favour for Energy Ammunition is purely hypothesis. Thats what I'm trying to get at. Posters on here are saying "Solid Ammunition BAD. Heavy,cumbersome etc". A bandolier of 240 5.56mm rounds weighs approx 2.4kg. A battery for a Bowman radio weighs in at 6.5kg (one of the most advanced batteries designed to be man-portable).

Judging from what we have here in todays modern times, with a pinch of background from 40k, in my opinion Solid ammunition is good. Its cheap to produce (9pence per 5.56mm round) easy to carry and easy to come across.

As for Las-guns being cheap to manufacture, how cheap? What value does the Departmento Munitorium place on a Las-gun? Does a Las-gun actually cost anything due to planetary tithes/Slave labour/Mass-production?

An L85A2 (the remodelled SA80) costs approx £690 without a weapon sight and ancilliaries. Thats considered cheap for a weapon proven to be the most accurate standard issued rifle given to a trained Soldier.

As for Las-guns being cheap to manufacture, how cheap? What value does the Departmento Munitorium place on a Las-gun? Does a Las-gun actually cost anything due to planetary tithes/Slave labour/Mass-production?

A standard mars-pattern Lasgun (Basically the most generic you can get) would cost a civilian 75 thrones to obtain. THe standard mars-pattern Autogun (again, the most generic you can get) would cost a civilian 100 thrones to obtain. Including a single full clip / full battery of ammunition, this increases to 90 / 101.5 thrones, respectively. The full clip of an Autogun would give you thirty shots. A fully charged battery for a Lasgun would give, depending on which author you ask, anywhere from sixty shots (bare minimum) to six hundred.

A single lasgun battery is, given what Dark Heresy tells us, roughly 0.4 kg, while 300 rounds of caseless Autogun ammunition (10 clips, including the weight of the clip itself) would roughly equate to 3.5 kg.

A lasgun battery pack is 15 thrones, while twenty bullets would cost a single throne, thus depending on which source you use, the ammunition costs roughly the same, except the lasgun battery takes up less space, weighs less, and can be recharged daily without diluting its effectiveness, or recharged quickly while reducing its effectiveness.

Thanks for some solid background Melissia. So we can establish then that in the 40k universe, Las-gun power packs are more cost-effective and are lighter on the old back

But what about effective stopping power? Earlier in the thread I talked about basic ballistics and behaviour of high-velocity rounds when hitting a man-sized target. Any hard evidence for damage caused by las-guns?

And what about range? The L85A2 being fired at section level (8 troops) has an effective accurate range of 600m. Copule this with a Light Machine Gun with an effective range of 800m (Section support weapon) and two Underslung Grenade Launchers and you have a very effective base of fire.

Discounting fluff concerning Las-cannons (Which require a large power-source) and other ranged energy weapons such as plasma/melta guns etc.

I'm talking about mass-produced,general issue small arms that are easy to train men and women to use.

The lasgun and autogun are generally considered equally effective. In Dark Heresy, the damage of an autogun depends on what pattern, but most of them have equivalent damage (1d10+3 energy damage for lasguns, versus 1d10+3 impact damage for standard autoguns-- both have zero penetration). So they're roughly equivalent, though the kind of damage isn't the same.

In comparison, a bolter is 1d10+5 explosive damage, and you roll twice on the 1d10 and pick the highest. This combined with 4 penetration allows it to pretty much kill or disable a single solder every shot-- a standard Guardsmen would probably have 11-15 wounds, unless they're particularly veteran (in which case they're probably wearing carapace armor anyway!).



The ranges given in Dark Heresy aren't very realistic. A heavy stubber's range (36" on the tabletop) is listed as 120 meters, or roughly 393.7 feet. "Extreme" range is three times this much, 360 meters or roughly 1181.1 feet. You literally cannot hit and damage a target beyond this with the weapon. A hunting rifle (effectively a low grade sniper rifle) or Long Las both have 150 meters range, up to 450 for extreme range (or roughly 1500 feet). In comparison, the Barret M98 has an effective range of 1200 meters. An M16 has an effective range of 550 meters.

The issue I have with this kind of argument is that lasers don't work with current technology due to factors such as power supply and their difficulty in penetrating mirrors and smoke.

Of course, these can be got around in an SF story by assuming some advance in technology to solve the problem.

If you do that, why wouldn't technology also improve bullet guns?

For example, if super-dense power supplies are invented, you could get rid of the propellant part of bullets and fire them by a gauss accelerator or rail gun instead.

If we are going to seriously look at this issue, we should be considering the possible characteristics of future bullets compared with future lasers.

For example, bullets could be filled with a variety of fillings such as gas or explosives. They could be guided in flight.

Lasers have the advantage of not creating a recoil and having zero flight time at battlefield ranges.

Well, the way to damage something is to transfer energy from once place to another. i put Kinetic energy into my club, club transfers energy to your skull, your skull gains kenetic energy and goes flying.


Energy weapons skip the club part and go right from energy source to energy destination.


the deal here is we are comparing 40k and modern solid slug weapons with 40k energy weapons. the best solid projectile weapon that exists in the 40k universe is the exact same thing our modern millitary is currently testing right now.

Also Railguns don't have recoil either and Lasguns are actually small scale Plasma weapons.

In real life i would imagine we will be carrying Railrifles around on our shoulders long before we have man portable laser weapons. especially considering railguns exist now, at least in tank and battle ship sized versions, and don't require as much power as lasers made using modern technology(although it is still prohibitive to a man portable power supply)

Kilkrazy wrote:The issue I have with this kind of argument is that lasers don't work with current technology due to factors such as power supply and their difficulty in penetrating mirrors and smoke.

Lasguns don't technically fire lasers, they fire "lasbolts". What, exactly, lasbolts are noone from GW has decided to tell us.

they are a very tiny amount of plasma.

Source?

There is nothing wrong with solid ammunition, some of you are looking at the issue fairly narrow minded. Think about this, if you have a solider wearing armor that can stop bullets there are really two ways you can design a round to defeat that armor. The first is what most people will think about, where you design a round that will penetrate the armor and then enter the body. But you can also defeat the armor by transfering enough force into the armor to cause massive damage to the person wearing it.

I don't think anyone is arguing there is anything wrong with solid ammunition from a damage perspective. But energy-based ammunition is more efficient from an economic perspective in the 40k universe.

Bolters are rediculously inefficient from an economic standpoint. They're used for their raw effectiveness in elite forces, but when we're talking about supplying uncounted billions of Guardsmen with the equipment needed to maintain a succession of long campaigns? That's where lasguns come in play.

Catyrpelius wrote:There is nothing wrong with solid ammunition, some of you are looking at the issue fairly narrow minded.

I mean no offense, but have you read the whole thread?

We've been talking about the usefulness of solid ammuntion in todays modern age. What we are now discussing is the fact that laser technology is far more effective on a military logistical scale due to the face that there is no wastage. I mean after we (16 Air Assault Brigade) returned from Op Herrick VIII, we got through 750'000 5.56mm rounds alone. Thats means that 750'000 shell casings litter the afghan desert. That compared to, theoretically speaking, Las-guns, there are NO spent shell casings. Therefore no wastage.

My arguement is that there are flaws to laser technolagy that we know now, such as KillKrazy correctly pointed out with mirrors and smoke.

To be honest, there is no real discussion to be had when it comes to comparing todays solid ammunition to the 41st millenium's energy weapons. But thats all we have for now.

Believe me, I have seen the effects that high velocity rounds have on the human body,and on modern body armour. It is devastating and cruelly effective.

Actually, special ammunition is one of the main reasons that the Inquisitorial forces use auto and stub weaponry. You can't exactly bless a lasgun's power pack in the same way you can bless an autogun's caseless rounds.

Sorry about that last post, I only got so far in typeing up what I wanted to say before someone needed my opinon for something very important...well it wasnt important at all but that didnt stop him from wasteing my already wasted time.

Anyway, about todays modern ammunition and wastage;

All i can say is "major" militaries are now in the process of testing and converting over to caseless small caliber ammuntion. Unless it is kicked down, which is not vary likely at this point, those countries will only field caseless small caliber ammuntion within the next 10 years. This lets us design a smaller round with the same velocity and stoping power as a conventional round with a roughly 30% reduction in weight.

When you compare the inefficancies of one system to another neither is better when you really think about it. I once had a general tell me, "Son if you could give me everything I wanted, you'd design me a round that weighed nothing, was made from dirt and could stop an elephant, unfortunatly I'll have to settle." Thats stuck with me thriugh my entire short carrer. There are tradeoffs with everything. From a pure cost standpoint you have to look at the entierty of a weapon system. While it may be true that once you build an energy cell for a las weapon your shots are free, you have to look at what goes into makeing that cell. It could contain rare materials or complex parts which drive up the cost of the weapon through its entire life cycle. Currently I can buy .223 ammunition manuactured at a private plant for the US Army at 10 cents a round. With future manufacturing technology and more advancded materials I can only see a price like this going down. You'd have to be able to make an energy cell pretty damn cheap in order to compete.

From a reliablity standpoint, wether the Imperial Guard would like to admit it or not the lasgun is a fairly complex peice of equipment all things related. While it may not jam in the conventional sense it would most certainly be prone to failures due to its componenants. It really does not get much simpler then a gas operated projectile weapon.

Just thought I'd add my two cents to the fire. This is actually a discussion I've had before it just didnt deal with the 40k universe, it delt with what people thought our current laser technology should be ablt to do. Sorry if my last post turned out badly, I was planning on it also includeing what I typed here. With the added benefit of it being edited to not make me sound like an ass.

While it may not jam in the conventional sense it would most certainly be prone to failures due to its componenants.

Except it doesn't. The lasgun is, simply put, the single most reliable and durable piece of technology the Imperium has at its disposal.

It really does not get much simpler then a gas operated projectile weapon

That is very true. The fundamental design for any automatic weapon is the gas feed back system, using the gases from the expelled round to re-cock the weapon. That to me sounds far simpler than complex optics and light cells that react to form a solid ball of light.

But this is science fiction we are talking about. Maybe in the 41st millenium, Las-guns will be as cheap and easy to produce as AK47s and M16s.

It doesnt in the fluff, but there has never been nor will there ever be something that doesnt break, and the more complicated the device the higher its chances of failure.

Or it could be that the Imperium has created the first ever perfect machine.

Homwever I would argue that the game and the fluff of 40k are not based around weapon failures from the Imperial side of things atleast, except for plasma weaponry. I cant remember one spot in any of the codex's or books that I have read where someones weapon breaks or jams. But then gain I have a bad memory.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bash the Bosh wrote:

It really does not get much simpler then a gas operated projectile weapon

That is very true. The fundamental design for any automatic weapon is the gas feed back system, using the gases from the expelled round to re-cock the weapon. That to me sounds far simpler than complex optics and light cells that react to form a solid ball of light.

But this is science fiction we are talking about. Maybe in the 41st millenium, Las-guns will be as cheap and easy to produce as AK47s and M16s.

Gahh that would be scary, then we'd have every street thug and third world dictator armed with freakin lasers

Catyrpelius wrote:It doesnt in the fluff, but there has never been nor will there ever be something that doesnt break, and the more complicated the device the higher its chances of failure.

So it's apparently not very complicated, yes?

Dark Heresy, which has to deal with weapon failures for almost every shooting weapon, has Lasguns of at least mediocre quality always be remarkably reliable. And even poor quality lasguns are just as reliable as an autogun or stubber rifle.

I wonder what happens if you accidently bung up the barrel of a lasgun with dirt.

Theres only one way to find out...







Drunken Pizza Party!

Kilkrazy wrote:I wonder what happens if you accidently bung up the barrel of a lasgun with dirt.

Supposedly it can still fire. You can leave a lasgun leaning against a tree, barrel down against the dirt, for an entire year, and then come back and pick it up and it'll still work just fine.

I should have thought the lasbolt would vapourise the dirt, causing an explosion in the barrel.

Don't ask me, I'm not the one that write's GW's fluff. Just look at how silly the vehicle armor comparisons are in Imperial Armour 1.

Grey Templar wrote:Also Railguns don't have recoil either

Um, no - of course railguns have recoil.

There is no force pushing backwards in a Railgun. its magnetic acceleration. No gas compression = no recoil.

there is a sonic boom from the speed of the projectile, but no actual recoil.

the round goes from 0 to mach5 instantly. there is nothing that would cause a recoil.

Kilkrazy wrote:I should have thought the lasbolt would vapourise the dirt, causing an explosion in the barrel.

I would have thought that the first shot would have superheated the dirt, turing it to glass, the second shot then exploding the glass.

So it either shreds the guardsman, the guy in front, or shoots pretty sparkles =3

S_P

Kilkrazy wrote:I should have thought the lasbolt would vapourise the dirt, causing an explosion in the barrel.

I think trying far too hard to look for some kind of consistent logic to 40k. None of the mechanics behind the 40k universe make a whole ton of sense when examined closely. Some, such as space marine creation are just down right hilariously absurd.

I find with these sorts of things it's best not to just ask questions and just accept them as they are. The physics of 40k are held together by Duct Tape, Rule of Cool and the light reflected off bald heads. It's actually part of why I like it. It's not concerned with realistic or reasonable in any way, it just lets fly with whatever and that makes it awesome.

I don't understand how you can understand this part:

Grey Templar wrote:Well, the way to damage something is to transfer energy from once place to another. i put Kinetic energy into my club, club transfers energy to your skull, your skull gains kenetic energy and goes flying.

And then totally miss the ball with this part

Grey Templar wrote:Also Railguns don't have recoil either...

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Using electricity and/or magnetism to accelerate a round is no different than using an explosive charge like gun powder as seen from the firer's perspective. As long as your gun obey the laws of physics it means whatever amount of energy your delivering on target the gun is also delivering back into firer plus some.

Melissia wrote:The standard mars-pattern Autogun (again, the most generic you can get) would cost a civilian 100 thrones to obtain. Including a single full clip / full battery of ammunition, this increases to 90 / 101.5 thrones, respectively.

Lets put all that aside and place ourselves directly in the boots of some far flung imaginary quartermaster general. We are arming and outfitting an entire army going off to some war that will take years for your supplies and troops to get to. You have a limited number of ships, and a limited amount of room, into which you need to stuff the maximum amount of "kill-ability" as you feasibly can. Even IF traditional ammunition was cheaper to make and more powerful in use, its taking up a room in your transport and it represents only 1 shot. If a box of lasgun battery packs represents multiple orders of magnitude more shots and takes up the same volume as a box of slug rounds in your transport, AND the lasgun doesn't need resupply (excepting breakage, etc), could you afford NOT to arm them with lasguns?

You have a choice of sending:
50 ships of soldiers and slug guns w/ ammo that you also have to resupply; or
1 ship of the same number of soldiers and the same number of weapons with 100 times more ammo and no resupply commitment (both necessitate food, water, clothes, replacement parts, etc so we are ignoring that bit).

It's pretty obvious what the right choice is...

You claim railguns have recoil.

the "equal and opposite reaction" part of a railgun is the opposite magnetic force that the slug exherts upon the 2 rails. the opposite reaction is reversed and propels the slug even faster. the slug is actually never in contact with the barrel as it is levitating in the chamber.

however, that exhertion will not translate into a force from the gun to whatever it is mounted on or being carried by.

also the rails exhert such an intense force on each other that the gun must be tightly bound together(this will reduce, if there is any, recoil by a massive factor)


any actual recoil will be so small that it will not translate into a force that would effect its wielder.



Railguns not having a kick doesn't defy the laws of physics, it puts them to use in new and interesting ways.

Railgun does have recoil. They did experiments with a railgun mounted on an M551 Sheridan, and found that on light tanks, firing high caliber rail-based weapons caused far too much recoil.

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA387401

Grey Templar wrote:the "equal and opposite reaction" part of a railgun is the opposite magnetic force that the slug exherts upon the 2 rails. the opposite reaction is reversed and propels the slug even faster. the slug is actually never in contact with the barrel as it is levitating in the chamber. however, that exhertion will not translate into a force from the gun to whatever it is mounted on or being carried by.

Nope. Think of it like this, if I push on you we both get pushed, but in opposite directions. If we are holding magnets and I push on you, the exact same thing happens regardless of if I ever actually physically touch you or not.

Grey Templar wrote:also the rails exhert such an intense force on each other that the gun must be tightly bound together (this will reduce, if there is any, recoil by a massive factor) any actual recoil will be so small that it will not translate into a force that would effect its wielder.

"The barrel blowing up is bad" OK sure, makes sense. "A barrel that doesn't blow up reduces recoil" Ummm... Huh?

Grey Templar wrote:Railguns not having a kick doesn't defy the laws of physics, it puts them to use in new and interesting ways.

I'll admit it's a novel way to push a round down range, but keep in mind that's all it is, pushing a bullet down range. If you were in space holding a railgun and you shot a bullet with the same mass as the gun and yourself together, you and the bullet would travel in opposite directions from each other with the same velocity. Force isn't one directional. Objects either pull each other together, or push each other apart, the only difference is mass determines which moves more. If a bullet is delivering some amount of force down range to your target, regardless of how you sent it there, it has already delivered that same amount of force back into the firer + the loses of air resistance over the flight of the bullet.

I think I might know whats probably confusing you though, in a Gauss or Coil gun the magnetic coils are always in front of the round pulling it forward. It seems like this would if anything pull the gun forward canceling out recoil. What really happens though, and you can see this for yourself in a swimming pool with a friend, is pulling an object away from you exerts the same bi-direction force as pushing an object does. The place your exerting the force at has perspectively rotated 180 degrees, but so has the direction in which your exerting the force.

Grey Templar wrote:There is no force pushing backwards in a Railgun. its magnetic acceleration.

So, magnetic force only works one way? If I use a magnet to lift a big weight it pulls the weight up but does not pull the magnet down?

Incorrect.

Recoil for a railgun is exactly the same as any other kinetic weapon.

It's worth noting, that for the purposes of fighting against armoured opponents, ballistic weaponry is probably better. Las weapons that don't penetrate completely will do no damage, while ballistic weapons at least have some stopping power that armour can't always protect against (ie, you could be wearing a bulletproof vest, but if you get shot, you're probably going to fall down, and maybe even bruise, even if the bullet doesn't actually penetrate, where as a lasgun that gets stopped by armour would do no damage to any layers underneath).

This is an excellent point and something that is either not adressed or abstracted away in most wargames and RP systems.

I do recall a system that had two damage value for weapons - one that was reduced by your armour and a second that you took either way. So, a saber bouncing off your helmet does almost no damage, a big two-handed axe hurts like hell even if the helmet does stop it. Even with the best powered armour in the game a 30mm multi-barrel cannon killed you stone dead with one burst even though it couldn't pierce your armour.

A laser hit would cause a localised explosion which would create a shockwave possibly capable of travelling through the armour and creating damage on the inside by pressure or spalling.

Or maybe not. I have no idea if a bullet or a laser joule for joule would be better at doing this.

I expect if laser weapons became practical armour would be developed to guard against them. For example, an ablative layer over a reflective layer backed by a superconductor layer to carry the heat away.

Chongara wrote:The physics of 40k are held together by Duct Tape, Rule of Cool and the light reflected off bald heads.

I almost died from laughter when reading this.

S_P

From what I can gather from the fluff (mostly from Necromunda) Only SM's can use and maintain Bolt weapons to a high standard.

Soild Ammo good in terms of being stronger and getting past armour is generally agreed through out the 40K fluff.

That being said Dark Heresy and Necromunda do not represent the entire Imperium of Man.

Different worlds, Different wars, Different weapons.

Karvick wrote:From what I can gather from the fluff (mostly from Necromunda) Only SM's can use and maintain Bolt weapons to a high standard.

Marines, Sororitas, and the Inquisition. The latter two have more resources at their disposal than the Marines do, actually, due to the power and money of the Ecclesiarchy and the authority of the Inquisition.

Kilkrazy wrote:I expect if laser weapons became practical armour would be developed to guard against them. For example, an ablative layer over a reflective layer backed by a superconductor layer to carry the heat away.

You would get passable cheap protection by having a copper layer somewhere in the sandwich (to conduct and hence dissapate the absorbed heat)

Though I don't like repeating myself verbatim, lasguns don't fire lasers, they fire lasbolts. What exactly these are I don't know, but someone suggested they're basically like really weak versions of tau plasma (I don't know where they got that information).

Lasbolt probably is just what the ignorant, superstitious IG soldiers call it.

Anyway, if it's a plasma pulse it still relies on electrical energy to create the pulse and light and heat absorption to create damage in the target, so we can still make a comparison with bullets.

Besides, remember, flak armor is actually designed for both solid and energy weapons.

Aren't there mentions of cleaning the lenses in the fluff?

The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer does not mention cleansing the lenses. It mentions cleansing the "ignition rings".

This is supposed to be a literal translation of the Primer issued to Guardsman, so this is some pretty solid fluff.

It's also listed as having a full auto mode capable of delivering 220 shots per minute (3.67 shots per second).

Melissia wrote:The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer does not mention cleansing the lenses. It mentions cleansing the "ignition rings".

Spot the homoerotic subtext.

Melissia wrote:
This is supposed to be a literal translation of the Primer issued to Guardsman, so this is some pretty solid fluff.

It's also listed as having a full auto mode capable of delivering 220 shots per minute (3.67 shots per second).

That's quite a low cyclic rate of fire. Modern guns have an RoF ranging from about 400 up to 1,200 depending on design. (Electrically driven guns can go up to 10,000 rpm but they are not man-portable.)

Yes, but keep in mind that this is probably limited in order to prevent damage to the barrel due to overheating.

Ordinary rifles aren't intended to be fired that much, however heavy machine guns are equipped with changeable barrels and water jackets to enable them to fire sustainably.

There is a case of a British machine-gun company in WW1 which fired its 10 Vickers guns in indirect fire mode continuously for 12 hours. They shot a million rounds, changed 100 barrels and did not suffer a single breakdown.

Grey Templar wrote:There is no force pushing backwards in a Railgun. its magnetic acceleration. No gas compression = no recoil.

there is a sonic boom from the speed of the projectile, but no actual recoil.

the round goes from 0 to mach5 instantly. there is nothing that would cause a recoil.

You do understand basic Newtonian principles(not to mention basic physics), right?

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction....

Railguns do have recoil- in current terms its negligible because the HUGE units are fixed and firing rather small projectiles- so the mass comparison of the projectile vs the launcher is like a BB trying to move a brick.

Recoil is caused by the mass and speed(which = energy) of the projectile being launched- not the mechanics of how its launched. Thats why a 12 ga shotgun has more felt recoil, its firing a very heavy shot, vs a 5.56 NATO that fires a smaller round much faster.

So, a rail gun that weighs the same as a conventional firearm, would have very similar recoil(conventional designs can vary in recoil due to the mechanical aspects of certain design features) if the projectiles mass and velocity were the same.

I think you're confusing magnetic acceleration with antigravity theory. Some sci fi has mixed anti grav into rail guns to offset recoil. But- otherwise- you're very wrong- to quote Scotty on this one "Ye cannot deny the laws of physics "

@Melissa & KillKrazy: You guys seem to be equating effectivness to rate of fire but that doesn't change that the lasgun and autogun are equal.

We are told that the effectivness of the Lasgun at its given rate of fire is about equal to that of an autogun over the same period of time, so we can assume that shot for shot the lasgun is stronger.


Damage Over Time (DOT) = Rate of Fire (RoF) * Base Damage per shot (BD) <--- Here it is psudo-mathmatically


class weapon
{
int RoF;
int BD;
public:
int DOT(int, int);
} pewpew;

int weapon :: DOT(int a, int b)
{int Dmg;
RoF = a;
BD = b;
Dmg=BD*RoF;
return Dmg;} // <-- Here it is in C++, I'm a bored nerd and this passes for humor to me

From here think of it as algebra (gasp! the A-word!) if the DOT is about equal between the two, but the autogun has a higher RoF then the BD of the Lasgun must be higher to make up for it. Overheating, jamming, replacing parts are only factors as to why they are equal.

I'm not, I'm just pointing out that the lasgun seems strangely short of RoF considering its advantage is supposed to be having more ammo on board.

More shots thrown down range usually increases the potential of hits.

RoF is also an advantage for armour piercing. The GAU-8 cannon gains its power partly from saturating the target with a volley of rounds that smash up the armour -- this effect is represented in 40K by the REnding rule for assault cannons.

Possibly it is to prevent overheating.

Either that, or GW didn't take the time to work out how many rounds per second it would be.

S_P

I really can't imagine that GW would just make some gak up rather than do a calculation about it.

Kilkrazy wrote:I really can't imagine that GW would just make some gak up rather than do a calculation about it.

FWIW: a guardsmen carries 6 power packs and these allow him to fire a minimum of 2,000 shots(Depending on power settings)

so a single power pack has approximatly 333.33 shots in it.

this is from the Munitorim manual.


Vs a Autogun magazine that has, maybe, 20-30 rounds.

Grey Templar wrote:FWIW: a guardsmen carries 6 power packs and these allow him to fire a minimum of 2,000 shots(Depending on power settings)

so a single power pack has approximatly 333.33 shots in it.

I think I see where your going with this...
If a guardsman had 2 lasguns firing off the hip in a Rambo-esque fashion, he would get in a total of 666 shots right before he ripped a hole in the universe and time ate itself. Pretty nasty stuff.

Why is why there is a specific setting on a lasgun that say "Do NOT set to this location"

Besides the guardmen stupid enough to shoot from the him Rambo style will probably get shot by the commisar.

Rate of fire doesnt meen anything if you can defeat the armor of the target your firing it it at.

While a lasgun over a period of time may be able to do the same amount of "damage" to a target as an autocannon, it meens nothing if the damage is completly negated by armor.

For example a lasgun will never be able to destroy and vehicle with an AV in 40k. Same things true in real life. I could have an infinate amount of 5.56 or 7.62 mm ammunition and a gun that could fire continously forever and I would never relistically be able to destroy a modern tank with the gun.

Yes, but a lascannon certainly could. Which is also an energy weapon, not a solid weapon-- and it's better than an autocannon against heavy armor.

Energy weapons can also be upscaled, too.

I wasnt saying that one was better then the other, I was just pointing out that Rate of Fire meens nothing if it is ineffective.

But we've already established that lasguns are not ineffective. Sure, they can't destroy vehicles,but then only Tau and Necrons can do that with their main guns. Both of which are energy weapons...

here's an interesting thought: What if you coult give a Lasgun armed unit TANK HUNTERS. then they would be Str4 against vehicles Lasgun pops DE Raider. DE captures Guardsmen for questiong.



O, and good news everybody. our long desired Orkmoticon is here:

Solid projectile weapons typically mean any weapon that fires a physical projectile from it. In that case, a bolter is certainly a solid projectile weapon.

While railguns have been mentioned in the thread, they have not been mentioned in their game incarnation of the Tau Railgun, which is the most powerful gun in non-apocalyptic 40k.

So we have Boltgun > Lasgun
Heavy Bolter > Burst Cannon
Auto Cannon > Multi-Laser
Railgun > Lascannon

Which seems to indicate that Solid Projectile weapons are more powerful in 40k, if not neccesarily more cost effective.

Try comparing actual equivalent weapons, instead of random ones.

1: This is an invalid comparison. An autogun is equivalent to a lasgun; If you were to compare hellguns to boltguns, it would be a slightly better one, but even then the two weapons systems have quite different strengths and weaknesses so it's hard to say which one is better without indicating a specific situation for it.

2: That is Tau technology, and therefor irrelevant. The heavy bolter is comparable to the Multilaser-- the ML has better strength, but worse armor penetration, while the HB has better penetration but lower strength. They're still roughly equivalent however.

3: This is an invalid comparison. The multilaser is comparable to the heavy bolter, not the autocannon. The autocannon is more comparable to the lascannon.

4: That is Tau technology, and therefor irrelevant. But if you really want to compare the Railgun to Imperial technology, try comparing it to the Laser Destroyer, which is quite similar to the Railgun as far as statline goes, with some slight differences.


From these (far more accurate and relevant) comparisons, you can see that Solid munitions ≈ energy weapons.

I don't see why Tau technology is irrelevant.

We are examining the issue of lasers versus bullets, not the issue of Imperial lasers vs Imperial bullets.

It only needs the IoM to rediscover the lost template for the Gauss rifle and we would see some changes.

In 40K (and most sci-fi) energy always trumps matter. Power Weapons work by disentigrating matter on a molecular level. They can cut through anything even adamantium.

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't see why Tau technology is irrelevant.

We are examining the issue of lasers versus bullets, not the issue of Imperial lasers vs Imperial bullets.

It only needs the IoM to rediscover the lost template for the Gauss rifle and we would see some changes.

Even if you consider the Tau technology, his comparisons are invalid anyway because he's comparing, for example, a tank cannon to a heavy machinegun. Of course the tank cannon's gonna hit harder. Try comparing an HMG to an HMG-- the Heavy Bolter and Multi-Laser.

I'm doing a straight strength scale. IG heavy weapon teams can take an Autocannon or a Lascannon, clearly these are not tank only mounted guns. A Tau Burst Cannon is far more simular to an energy HMG than a Multilaser

It isn't invalid to compare a tank cannon with a heavy machine gun.

We only need compare the energy transmitted to the target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It would be more useful to research the absorption of photo energy of a certain wavelength by body tissue.

Visible light energy is effectively 100% absorbed but is 99.9% reflected by mirrors.

X Ray energy mostly goes through mirrors but is only weakly absorbed by body tissue.

We need to find the cross-over point between armour being ignored and effective absorption by the body.

Kroot Loops wrote:A Tau Burst Cannon is far more simular to an energy HMG than a Multilaser

No, it is not, as the multilaser IS an energy HMG, just as the heavy stubber and heavy bolter are solid ammunition HMGs despite having differing stats.

The autocannon is a tank cannon, as that is exactly how it's used on the Predator-- its main gun. The Predator is a light tank, and the Autocannon is a light tank cannon to be sure, but still a tank cannon. The Battle Cannon is only strength eight, and the lascannon is strength nine, if you want to compare a heavier tank cannon. And if you want to compare extremely high strength weapons, both the laser destroyer and rail gun are strength ten, the highest strength in standard games.

I'm sticking with the 40K rule book on this one and saying Solid is better.

After consulting the rule book and looking back over much of the fluff, Soild ammo seems to be much more effective as it has better AP.

This is Sci-fi so no Race can be discounted.

A Railgun beats Lascannon. Both can be used by tanks and infantry. So get over it!

Boltgun is beter than a lasgun, both can be used by IG and Lasguns have no AP unless it's a hellgun or a hotshot which has crap range. Solids can have a wider variety of munition types (See sternguard and shotgun rounds from Necromunda)

The Fluff and the rules support solid ammo. Yes Plasma and Las weapons have some good stuff but I'd Still go for the Solid Ammo type thats used by a bloody TITAN!

Energy weapons have way better AP. A Space Marine can take an autocannon shot in the chest and get back up. Not so much with a Lascannon or even a handheld plasmagun.

Or a railgun.

Kilkrazy wrote:Or a railgun.

... which is comparable to a laser destroyer. Neither of which can be used by infantry (Broadsides are effectively small walkers).

You people are still comparing weapons that are entirely different grades.

Plus a railgun is ultimate pinnacle of solid shot weapons. It pretty special and complicated. Whereas there are many hendheld energy weapons. Yes 1 man can weild a railrifle but remind me what the AP is on that again? Not to mention its huge. Plasmapistol fits in your pocket.

It's not that special. They have them today in experimental format.

Yes. But then the lasgun would be ludicrously advanced, to us.

Not if it can only do 3/-.

I would hope for a lot more from 38,000 years of development.

We ought to be up to meson guns.

Kilkrazy wrote:Not if it can only do 3/-.

I would hope for a lot more from 38,000 years of development.

We ought to be up to meson guns.

The Autogun is effectively better than any modern assault rifle, and it has the exact same stats.

But we have yet to produce an effective and efficient man-portable energy weapon. Nevermind one whose power packs recharge by exposing them to light and/or heat, or just by plugging them into a wall somewhere.

And it goes both ways most armour that can't be pierced (invulnerble save) is? You guessed it made of energy! They often fit discretely on your belt or head or whatever. If you want an invulnerble save made of matter? your going to need 40 tons of adamantium! (terminators)

What enemies are solid rounds most effective against?

those that are vulnerable to Hydrostatic shock.

Chongara wrote:
Greenery and birds have become all the rage amongst the nobility of the Salwal sector, in response the entire 20 billion population of the planet Buwal as been turned over to the production of Pink Lawn Flamingos and AstroTurf in order to meet the demand. Life there is actually somewhat easier there than on other industrial worlds, as the production of these products puts out relatively low pollution. There is one major threat they must deal with, however. The entire southern continent of the planet is undeveloped due to being overrun with an aggressive species of giant fire-breathing ducks. The planet has a slightly wobbly axis and for 3 months every 5 years the climate shifts slightly and the birds migrate. At that time great terror spreads through the cities as feathered bodies blot out the sun, deafening quacking fills the air and huge gouts of flame burn millions alive.

I take my hat off to you, sir.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:And it goes both ways most armour that can't be pierced (invulnerble save) is? You guessed it made of energy! They often fit discretely on your belt or head or whatever. If you want an invulnerble save made of matter? your going to need 40 tons of adamantium! (terminators)

Until a psycannon comes along with its solid shells going right through your force fields... yeah...

The main issue is whether you want the stopping power and damage over time of ballistic weaponry, or the instantaneous hard-hitting power of energy weapons. They both have different uses. Realistically, ballistic weaponry makes for better assault weaponry than energy weapons, because of the stopping power. There's a reason why the imperium still ballistic shotguns.

Also, on the larger scale, ballistic weaponry can be used for indirect ordinance fire.

Kilkrazy wrote:I'm not, I'm just pointing out that the lasgun seems strangely short of RoF considering its advantage is supposed to be having more ammo on board.

More shots thrown down range usually increases the potential of hits.

Is this still true in a weapon with no (or virtually no) recoil? If you fire a burst they're all going to the same spot. Possibly, the RoF is deliberately de-tuned in order to prevent excessive wasted shots.

That could be so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LThD0FMvTFU

A real laser at work. Obviously the size of this thing will be reduced significantly in years to come, but this gives you a much better idea of how lasers actually work.

It's not a bolt, like a blaster in Star Wars. It's literally a ray of light. First of all, the power is reduced significantly with range. Second, you need to maintain contact between the laser and target long enough to actually cause damage. This laser is huge and very powerful, and yet it still takes several seconds to sufficiently heat the incoming mortar round.

Assuming an X Ray tube ran at 24MeV, how much power would be needed to pump out 2,000 Joules of laser energy in 1/100th of a second?

Fafnir wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:And it goes both ways most armour that can't be pierced (invulnerble save) is? You guessed it made of energy! They often fit discretely on your belt or head or whatever. If you want an invulnerble save made of matter? your going to need 40 tons of adamantium! (terminators)

Until a psycannon comes along with its solid shells going right through your force fields... yeah...

The main issue is whether you want the stopping power and damage over time of ballistic weaponry, or the instantaneous hard-hitting power of energy weapons. They both have different uses. Realistically, ballistic weaponry makes for better assault weaponry than energy weapons, because of the stopping power. There's a reason why the imperium still ballistic shotguns.

Also, on the larger scale, ballistic weaponry can be used for indirect ordinance fire.

Psycannon uses psychic energy. Emphasis on energy.

Bonesword and warp lance also use psychic energy but are stopped by invulnerable saves.

Kilkrazy wrote:Bonesword and warp lance also use psychic energy but are stopped by invulnerable saves.

Cause its not the Emepror's blessed, holy psychic, energy heretic.

Still psychic energy though.

it is cause Psy bolts are laid about on a microscopic level with Hexigrammic patterns that absorb psychic as well as normal energy, allowing the shell to go through unobstructed.

Hence why they go through Invulns of all types and other psychic weaponry doesn't.



Psychic vs normal energy is a moot point however as they are technically the same thing. Psychic energy is simply energy that certain individuals can manipulate with their minds.

the Warp is the realm of Energy. the physical world is the realm of Matter. matter and energy exist in both dimensions, our universe is based on Matter, the Warp is based on Energy.

However, the beings from the energy realm seem to fare better in our than ours in there's.

that is only true where the walls of reality are thin.


where they are not, Deamons that arn't of massive strength and power tend to dissolve quite rapidly.


they are using vast reserves of their power just to maintain their corperal forms.

this was represented by the Instability tests Deamons used to have to take when certain things happened, but they removed them because it was a balance issue.

when you damage a deamons form it will instantly heal(hence why the immunity to ID) but it takes energy to enact this maintanence of the form. if you drain a deamon of energy then it will be forced back into the warp where it may take millennia to regain the lost energy.

the more powerful the demon the longer it takes to recharge.



Now, you might say that time is irrelevent in the warp, but that isn't true. the warp has its own time stream seperate from the pysical universe, BUT they don't flow at the same rate in relation to each other. this is why, when the 2 realms combine, the timestream is misplaced. Time doesn't flow correctly when the Warp spills into the physical universe, BUT neither does time flow correctly in the warp when the physical universe comes in.

so a greater Deamon may get drained and reappear a few centuries later, but to him it has been 10,000, years in the warp. he will certaintly be pissed.

Yes, that's what I mean. He'll be pissed but no permanent damage. Whereas a human exposed to the raw warp for even a moment may be irrevocably damaged or changed.

If hexagrams absorb energy why don't people put them on all weapons, thus rendering invulnerable saves meaningless.

Kilkrazy wrote:If hexagrams absorb energy why don't people put them on all weapons, thus rendering invulnerable saves meaningless.

Would you want to sit there and put thousands of microscopic hexagrammic wards on every lasgun power pack, boltgun shell, shotgun shell, etc. in the Imperium?

If so, then be my guest; but there has yet to be a member of the Munistorum that has the time to do it.

S_P

Especially when most people don't have invulnerble saves.

Space_Potato wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If hexagrams absorb energy why don't people put them on all weapons, thus rendering invulnerable saves meaningless.

Would you want to sit there and put thousands of microscopic hexagrammic wards on every lasgun power pack, boltgun shell, shotgun shell, etc. in the Imperium?

If so, then be my guest; but there has yet to be a member of the Munistorum that has the time to do it.

S_P

Just micro-etch them by laser. If the Imperium can't do it, I bet the Tau and Eldar have the technology.

Ahhh, but it must be blessed and hand crafted by a man of great faith. mass production isn't an option.

Ya and Tau are Heathens and the Eldar heretics.

Psycannon bolts are charged with psychic energy, not composed of it. The bolt is still required to do any actual damage. In fact, there are no weapons that bypass invulnerable saves that use energy as their offensive payload. See, C'tan phase weaponry, which is composed of living metal.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Space_Potato wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If hexagrams absorb energy why don't people put them on all weapons, thus rendering invulnerable saves meaningless.

Would you want to sit there and put thousands of microscopic hexagrammic wards on every lasgun power pack, boltgun shell, shotgun shell, etc. in the Imperium?

If so, then be my guest; but there has yet to be a member of the Munistorum that has the time to do it.

S_P

Just micro-etch them by laser. If the Imperium can't do it, I bet the Tau and Eldar have the technology.

It's not a question of production capacity you see, in order to contact the Administratum to request permission to manufactor such devices you need to first fill out form XYZ-11458126 Section-A to request permission to contact them. Then when your grandchildren recieve the reply from the proper offices (assuming you filled the paperwork out correctly, incorrectly filled paperwork will be rejected without notice to the petitioner) you can then expect a detailed background on the citizens of your planet (yes we mean all of them, do you think the Administratum cuts corners?) before you can start negotiation of terms. Then if your planet passes the check you may then submit form XYZ-11458126 Section-C to request permission to contact the Administratum to request permission to contact the Priests of Mars regarding elevated level technology who will then do their own backround check on the citizens of your planet. <Approximetly seven paragraphs missing due to data corruption> Upon completion of the security requirements you may fill out the apropriate form requesting terms of manufactor and transport and adjustments of subsidies toward planetary tithes. Upon completion of this form your request will be submitted for review by the appointed authorities, queries about the progress of such submissions will be ignored. Upon their review the new terms shall be submitted to you for review before they are sumitted back to the authorities for final approval. Remeber the bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the ever expanding bureaucracy.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Space_Potato wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If hexagrams absorb energy why don't people put them on all weapons, thus rendering invulnerable saves meaningless.

Would you want to sit there and put thousands of microscopic hexagrammic wards on every lasgun power pack, boltgun shell, shotgun shell, etc. in the Imperium?

If so, then be my guest; but there has yet to be a member of the Munistorum that has the time to do it.

S_P

Just micro-etch them by laser. If the Imperium can't do it, I bet the Tau and Eldar have the technology.

It's not a question of production capacity you see, in order to contact the Administratum to request permission to manufactor such devices you need to first fill out form XYZ-11458126 Section-A to request permission to contact them. Then when your grandchildren recieve the reply from the proper offices (assuming you filled the paperwork out correctly, incorrectly filled paperwork will be rejected without notice to the petitioner) you can then expect a detailed background on the citizens of your planet (yes we mean all of them, do you think the Administratum cuts corners?) before you can start negotiation of terms. Then if your planet passes the check you may then submit form XYZ-11458126 Section-C to request permission to contact the Administratum to request permission to contact the Priests of Mars regarding elevated level technology who will then do their own backround check on the citizens of your planet. <Approximetly seven paragraphs missing due to data corruption> Upon completion of the security requirements you may fill out the apropriate form requesting terms of manufactor and transport and adjustments of subsidies toward planetary tithes. Upon completion of this form your request will be submitted for review by the appointed authorities, queries about the progress of such submissions will be ignored. Upon their review the new terms shall be submitted to you for review before they are sumitted back to the authorities for final approval. Remeber the bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the ever expanding bureaucracy.

Yes well done. There's been a few forums asking about the Imperium's static tech level. Lets say you invent a lasgun with AP6. You gotta go through the same process. Then the munitorium realizes its not compatible with their standard issue power cell. You think they're going to throw out 900,000,000,000,000 power clips because you invented something that works better!? Hell no, you're getting a Str 3 Ap- gun and your going to like it!
To answer some other common forum questions like "what's the greatest threat to humanity?". The answer is bureaucracy: same in year 40,000 and 2000.