Look man, the whole, can't be taken as anything more than 'propaganda' angle is a cover for doing armies like this. It is GW saying have fun with your 'models', and have fun with 'your models background'. Whenever the line is crossed into famous things, like the Chapters of Legend and First Foundings, there is a precedent and specific set of information, not written from a ground level perspective, but an all knowing one. So if the all knowing author didn't include it, that means it is open for 'your interpretation' but 'your interpretation' isn't necessarily what is true or actually happened.

It has been said before in interviews and articles, no I don't have them, my WD's are not with me, certain things are what actually happened. The Astral Claws lost the Badab War, Horus betrayed the Emperor, and Sanguinius died. It has been stated there can be no female marines, but if you want to do them go for it. This doesn't make them exist anywhere but in your model collection. It is like steampunk and clockwork models. They arn't real in 40K. You can't make new technology.

I am not being calculating, or barb-ing my comments, and I am really not even that concerned with your interpretation in question. Posters who arn't responding like you are, and are really only doing it for reasons known only to them, arn't doing anything but throwing fuel on the fire.

For Christ's Sake, you wrote an article on why female marines exist, do you honestly think I expect your opinion to change? My posts are designed to put a stop to the shenanigans that arn't as though out as your Black Widows, or are only here to incite those like myself who don't believe female marines cane exist.

...unless, of course, they're Dark Angels who have painted their armour silver for some reason... In the same way that the Deathwing painted their original Terminator armour white to retake their homeworld, or the rest of the Dark Angels Chapter painted their armour green before assaulting their brethren on Calliban.

And if we're going by older background (which is where the 'male only' thing comes from, after all) the Chapters all had multiple colour schemes, depending on where they were fighting at the time.

So not the best example, hey?

So you are honestly suggesting that a random player, can change the history of the oldest space marine chapter, just because he was uncomfortable highlighting green or whatever reason made him choose silver? The article I continue to reference doesn't have another analogue, it has an adaptation in three separate marine codexes, but no true re-write. I will agree if they ever re-do the Rites of Initiation article in an official form specifically on the subject of the rites themselves, instead of as a quick overview in the codex of the marine army in question, and the line about the zygotes is missing, I will rescind all of my statements.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:I will agree if they ever re-do the Rites of Initiation article in an official form specifically on the subject of the rites themselves, instead of as a quick overview in the codex of the marine army in question, and the line about the zygotes is missing, I will rescind all of my statements.

Achem... to quote the GW webpage:

"Rites of Initiation
The boast that a Space Marine is superhuman is not idle, for they exceed the frail biology of mere mortals in every way. Fully eighteen specific biological enhancements are made to the bodies of aspirants - a harsh routine of organ implantation and genetic manipulation that goes hand-in-hand with the already exhausting regimen of hypno-learning, physical testing and spiritual initiation into the Chapter traditions. Many aspirants prove unworthy in their training, more still find their bodies unable to cope with the intense regime of organ replacement, but those that do survive, whose robust physiognomy meets the exacting standards of the Chapter can be considered the finest, most impressive weapons in the Imperium."


No mention of testicals being a requirement, though it does imply that chapters are free to set thier own standards, so it is possible that some chapters might admit women. I know you're going to argue that it isn't long enough, that it's not real because it's too short, however, anyone want to argue that GW's fluff isn't canon?

Behold the power of retcon. You have been Infinite Crisised.


BTW: I wonder which one got ditched? It used to be 19 organs.

Pics are on page 7

I love 'em!! Great modelling and painting

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:So you are honestly suggesting that a random player, can change the history of the oldest space marine chapter, just because he was uncomfortable highlighting green or whatever reason made him choose silver?

No, I'm saying that a random player can add whatever background he likes to his personal army.

You seem to be under the impression that people are suggesting that how they model their army in some way affects official background material... I have no idea why.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:It has been said before in interviews and articles, no I don't have them, my WD's are not with me, certain things are what actually happened. The Astral Claws lost the Badab War, Horus betrayed the Emperor, and Sanguinius died. It has been stated there can be no female marines

Still no evidence. Either look it up and quote it or concede the point. Simply retyping your opinion over and over again is a waste of our time.

but if you want to do them go for it. This doesn't make them exist anywhere but in your model collection.

Um, neither do your armies. NONE of this exists except as plastic and pewter models on the tabletop. It's pretend.

You seem to be using your own version of words like "real" and "exists" that you should probably explain a little better.

It is like steampunk and clockwork models. They aren't real in 40K.

Oh, never mind. I understand now. It's just another elitism barb.

Strange, you don't bring any new evidence or arguments with each new post. The one thing you do change up and vary with each new post is the way you type your barb.

My posts are designed to put a stop to the shenanigans

Allow me to clue you into something. You are not a guardian of 40K. Games Workshop doesn't need you to protect the purity of their fluff. In fact, if the design staff saw the way you try to crush the fun of anyone who deviates from your norm, they'd probably ask you to leave the hobby. Every person you drive off is lost money from their pocket, and brings the hobby one step closer to collapse.

You are doing the hobby a disservice.

or are only here to incite those like myself who don't believe female marines can't exist.

Really? You get mad by the way other people play with their toys?

Why would you care? I mean, I don't care what you do with your toys, so why would you care what I do with mine?

Are you honestly implying that you cannot have fun unless you first purge the hobby of players you deem unfit?

Allow me to give you some advice, Marshal. The great thing about the internet is that you never have to click on a thread if you don't want to. No one is going to trick you with female space marine pop-up windows.

Don't like female marines? Then don't click on the threads.

I will agree if they ever re-do the Rites of Initiation article in an official form specifically on the subject of the rites themselves, instead of as a quick overview in the codex of the marine army in question, and the line about the zygotes is missing, I will rescind all of my statements.

That's a really weak argument and you know it.

Do you have a quote from GW stating that the fluff in the Space Marine Codex is a quick and incomplete overview? No, you don't. You DECIDED that it is a quick and incomplete overview.

Just like when when you were presented with evidence from the Black Library, you DECIDED that it didn't count, or when you were presented with evidence from the design team, you DECIDED that it must not count either.

Face it, you are doing exactly what you are accusing me of doing.

You are altering, rewriting, justifying, and stretching any part of the game you don't like to arrive at the point you wish to arrive at.

What's more, you are attacking people for doing the same thing that you yourself do.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:

...unless, of course, they're Dark Angels who have painted their armour silver for some reason... In the same way that the Deathwing painted their original Terminator armour white to retake their homeworld, or the rest of the Dark Angels Chapter painted their armour green before assaulting their brethren on Calliban.

And if we're going by older background (which is where the 'male only' thing comes from, after all) the Chapters all had multiple colour schemes, depending on where they were fighting at the time.

So not the best example, hey?

So you are honestly suggesting that a random player, can change the history of the oldest space marine chapter, just because he was uncomfortable highlighting green or whatever reason made him choose silver?

Both the Dark Angels and Deathwing have had permanent color changes because GW own artists screwed up by not looking at and/or reading the source materials. GW just wrote new fluff to handwave it away later, err, sorry, I forgot, the latest term is retcon.

Woo so many different colors.

How did you paint the eyes and lips Doc T?

Sidstyler wrote:

However, if his players were to wear a dinosaur on their jersies, they would not be thrown out of the game. They may not be taken seriously, but they would not be penalized for breaking the rules.

Hehehe. Nice find there Sidstyler. Now just think of how much joy the world would have missed out if they listened to all the nay-sayers who said there shouldn't be prehistoric animals in the NBA?

LunaHound wrote:Woo so many different colors.

How did you paint the eyes and lips Doc T?

Just follow this guide, best I've ever found:
http://www.jenova.dk/Faces.htm

I am not attacking anyone. You are seeing attacks where there are none.

What quotes do you want? How can you sit there and not think that for a game with historical refights and a section on famous battles in the codexes, that there isn't some form of truth to the universe. You are taking my two separate arguments and mixing them. I am saying some things are propaganda like you suggest, some things are lies (the Uplifting Primer), but whenever it comes to things like how stuff is made and famous battles (the Horus Heresy), there is some kind of definitive answer.

Accusing me of elitism hurts. Who am I threatening to exclude? Do you think I am trying to be condescending and mean to you? I am not. I click on your threads because of the painting. You are a very good painter, your styles fits in my realm of achievable style, it doesn't take me thousands of coats to replicate this style on my models. I like the way you do the black, it makes it much softer than the hard lining codex gray that I am no good at. The red is bright enough that it works on my Sword Brethren's shoulder pad without being glossy. I just like the way you paint. Notice, I don't post in your other threads that don't have fluff debates in them, because I am just there for the models.

We are just having a fluff debate, but you are including real world arguments and quotes in what should just be about the fluff and what we have in books. It should be fun to spar, not painful. If Jervis Johnson says, 'hey guys if you want, the squats actually won the 13th Black Crusade' and never printed any material on it, other than that line in standard bearer, then what did it change?

Doctor Thunder wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Woo so many different colors.

How did you paint the eyes and lips Doc T?

Just follow this guide, best I've ever found:
http://www.jenova.dk/Faces.htm

Ah thank you, thats how i did mine too but , i was wondering how you did yours ( doesnt look the same )
and the ultramarine one , was she painted in black primer or white primer? or maybe the steps? ( the eagle is very vibrant while blue armor is
rich in shadows )

@Marshal2Crusaders

while i understand you are just asking what you are curious about (fluff discussion i guess?) i know its sort of on topic (related to how the conversion look /justified )
but most people dont look at it the same way. Ppl just dont like something they like been questioned . If anything , start a new topic discussion on ( are there none Sisters of Battle space marines
in space marine armor ) or something like that ? Or you simply have to realize its way easier to do head swap then re sculpt the WHOLE miniature from scratch ( because they would end up looking more
slender compared to male counter parts )

This thread is such a monumental internet tragedy, I just have to be part of it...

What's got me the most curious, is the debate around who painted these models. People are saying that they were sent out to a commissioned painter. I realize it doesn't matter, but now I'm curious. Can we not just get an answer? Who painted these models? Dr.T or somebody else?

Dr.T, for the sake of total clarity, I'm asking you directly: Who painted these models?

The level of failed communication going on here is just unreal. People yelling nonsense at each other, posturing smugly, etc. etc.

Sad.

Look, it's not at all hard...

There is no precedent for female Space Marines in any official GW material. Instead, there is, by the presence and fluff of the Sisters of Battle, an implication that Space Marines are always male.

And yet, GW is a very easygoing, inclusion minded company. Clearly they would not want to stifle their players' enjoyment. If you were to say "can there be female Space Marines" they will respond "sure, please feel free to buy not just Space Marine kits, but also elf kits, we sell BOTH!"

It's pretty simple. The guy made an army of female Space Marines. Some people think it's sweet, some people hate it, GW doesn't care, so long as they sell models.

Now, to the haters, as Bill Clinton once said, "I feel your pain." I think doing simple head swaps just to insert bewbs into a situation is pretty lame. And doing it repatedly is really lame. But the great irony here is that while I do feel your pain, Bill Clinton would totally appreciate having bewbs inserted into any and every context. It's a paradox of our times.

But I still feel your pain. I think people are reacting in defense of their hobby. We're all comfortable being nerds playing pretend war, but when somebody wants to turn it into pretend war AND pretend sex, that's a bit more nerd than we're cool with. People are trying to use the fluff, or biology, or whatever else to add strength to their basic point, which is that they don't like people getting so much nerd smegma on their hobby. I feel your pain, but I urge you to not worry about it.

I don't think anybody here is REALLY trying to stop Dr.T from pursuing his passion of putting bewbs on Space Marines. It's more a case of telling him in a combative fashion, that we really wish he wouldn't. There is, after all, nothing at all in his tone to imply he'd listen to counter-arguments in a receptive fashion.

On the contrary, my read is that Dr.T is an internet troll who has gotten a lot of bites off of his SPESS MAHREEN + BEWB strategy, and he's enjoying every second of this thread, which is feeding his freedom-of-expression-victim pathology, and giving him lots of chances to tell people how close minded they are.

The fact is, we're all free to express ourselves. We're as free to say something is bad as we are to say something is good, or to bolt bewbs onto our possessions and then have dreams that said possessions come to life at night and let us touch their genetically enhanced battle bewbs.

I think it's all a little silly, but then again, I'm married, and I have kids, one of whom is 2 months old, so in my house we have a lot of very large, very angry bewbs, so the novelty has really worn off.

i think we all need to have a hug. a like an ogryn hug

seeing as everyone is jumpg in on it i may aswell.

i do remember the adeptus astartes article in WD about the process and i seem to recall the whole male thing. but my WD''s are in my dads shed and im at home and its late.

HOWEVER as other people have said, nothing is ever set in stone. im sure if it sold more models the emperor would be turn out to be female!
At the end of the day-this isnt real, but people should just be glad that not everyone is a beardy moronic geek whos only thing in life is the joy of correcting people!
Fluff is a massive part of the game-otherwise stuff like the liber chaotica wouldnt sell.
i blame GW for selling out so often

Mastiff wrote:Hehehe. Nice find there Sidstyler. Now just think of how much joy the world would have missed out if they listened to all the nay-sayers who said there shouldn't be prehistoric animals in the NBA?

The Toronto Raptors, if anyone's wondering. Twas in response to the person who said wearing a dinosaur on your jersey would make it hard to take you seriously.

Then again maybe some people don't take the Raptors seriously, I dunno. I always just used to think it was cool that there was a basketball team with a velociraptor for a mascot.

Sidstyler wrote:

Mastiff wrote:Hehehe. Nice find there Sidstyler. Now just think of how much joy the world would have missed out if they listened to all the nay-sayers who said there shouldn't be prehistoric animals in the NBA?

The Toronto Raptors, if anyone's wondering. Twas in response to the person who said wearing a dinosaur on your jersey would make it hard to take you seriously.

Then again maybe some people don't take the Raptors seriously, I dunno. I always just used to think it was cool that there was a basketball team with a velociraptor for a mascot.

Yep, I was the one who brought them up in the first place, and I'm glad you know who I was referring to. Jurassic Park was still popular when they named them, although it's actually further east in Alberta (Drumheller to be exact) that Raptors have any relative importance in Canada. It just seemed very off-the-wall when they picked the raptor as their symbol. But it was fun while it lasted. And it beat the hell outta the "Toronto Maple Syrups".

And that's still a damn fine picture you found there.

"Does this power armor make me look fat?"

"Well, um, er....."

*bolter fire*

^_^

Well done though, nice seeing armor thats not a 'power bikini'. Those things ride up too much to be practical

Phryxis, your post was quite amusing.


(Also, I think I had a Toronto Raptors pen once. It's certainly better than another fething "Wildcats".)

well after reading through the entire 7 pages, I have realized that some of my space marine models look more like women who have had kemo than I would like to admit.

SPACE MARINES CANNOT BE WOMEN is said by some; I say that when they come out with a female space marine one of two things will happen:

1) the war for never ending space will get worse
2) space marines will have other things to do.

I commend you for your efforts to bring peace to a never ending, ficticious, warlike universe... or at least bring about its destruction.

Grey Knight Luke wrote:well after reading through the entire 7 pages, I have realized that some of my space marine models look more like women who have had kemo than I would like to admit.

SPACE MARINES CANNOT BE WOMEN is said by some; I say that when they come out with a female space marine one of two things will happen:

1) the war for never ending space will get worse
2) space marines will have other things to do.

I commend you for your efforts to bring peace to a never ending, ficticious, warlike universe... or at least bring about its destruction.

"We're lost..."

"We're Not Lost!"

"Yes we are, do you even know were we're going?"

"See, here's the sign, "Chaos Invasion This Way 40,000 km..."

"Next time I'M driving the landraider..."

"Oh no you don't. The tech marines will flip if you go 'off raoding' in it again...."

Bottom line here. If someone wants female space marines they are going to have them weather or not you like it. Im sorry it breaks your fantasy of thousands of bald men being the superior to everyone.

Again nice work on the models and keep up the work, all great change has been opposed by some group or another

I also think there could be more T&A an 40K, Doc T has done a good job. So here's to more T&A with some wip pics, probably more captive than marine in this case:

lol She'd have to have the strength of a Space marine to carry those around...

Christ. Thank god you refrained from sculpting any godawful torpedo titties this time round Thunder, but all you did was swap a few heads. Anyone can do that, and a head swap does not a woman make. File down the shoulders, widen the hips slightly or something but all i see are dudes at this point. Paint job ain't bad at least, but work on your modeling if you want to convey a believable sense of feminism.

Mistress of minis wrote:lol She'd have to have the strength of a Space marine to carry those around...

#looks at your avatar#

I think you're might be a bit jealous m8!

indeed hope you sculpting a suitably strong cast iron bikini for that mini

xceptionzero wrote:indeed hope you sculpting a suitably strong cast iron bikini for that mini

What?? and cover up her coat hooks??? I dont think so!
I am currently sculting her head and face, although I don't really suppose it matters what her face looks like!! LOL

Uri Lee wrote:

#looks at your avatar#

I think you're might be a bit jealous m8!

lol Right, who wouldnt want a pair that huge. A girl could win every tournament in the land- every time she bent over to roll the dice hyponitism would induced. And two jumbo-normous titan sized ordanance templates would wipe out her opponents figs when they flopped onto the table

Okay, I'm a noob here but I thought I'd jump in on the subject of female Marines. Fluffwise, they are not possible.
Here's a quote from Rick Priestley in 'Rites of Initiation', in the book Index Astartes, first published in WD247. (Yes, I need to get a life.)
'They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.'
So officially there are no female Marines. So Marshal2Crusaders is right!

But Jervis Johnson says the hobby is what we make it, it's about having fun, and doing what you want, without worrying what others think. So Doc Thunder is right!

Everyone's right, and the world is a happy place full of Space Marines and Orks and Tau and...

NONE of this exists except as plastic and pewter models on the tabletop. It's pretend.

... and my world has just collapsed! Thank God I've got Santa's yearly visit to look forward to, or I'd go mad...

Lovejoy wrote:in the book Index Astartes, first published in WD247. (Yes, I need to get a life.)
'They must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.'
So officially there are no female Marines. So Marshal2Crusaders is right!

Male hormones? thats called testosterone- and its present in all people regardless of gender Guys just have more, and women in menopause have more too- so only grumpy old ladies with hot flashes can take a zygote? Or the 'tissues'.....do we need to go there? I mean, that would limit where the zygote can be placed to ....a place most guys dont want anything implanted...


Lets face it, the GW guys really arent equipped to talk about the technical aspects of genetic engineering to the point it would sound viable to all of the nerd community. And if they ever get cornered on it- they'll change the fluff to suit whatever they want to say.

Ya Im biased, I'd like to see some cool chick marines in actual power armor that doesnt look like its based on a fetish outfit. But, the demographics might not make that a viable financial choice for GW. So, we're limited to people that take the time to convert them and argue with people that try to preach some sci fi fluff as if it were religious doctrine of some sort

Steelmage99 wrote:

Thanks to steelmage99, now we have finally a diorama in this thread.

Uri Lee wrote:

Mistress of minis wrote:lol She'd have to have the strength of a Space marine to carry those around...

#looks at your avatar#

I think you're might be a bit jealous m8!

cool very similar to the slaves/captives from the DE raider guy-Asdribal Vect??

Guys just have more, and women in menopause have more too- so only grumpy old ladies with hot flashes can take a zygote?

Why do you think the Sisters all have white hair?

Granted they aren't Marines, but still, I thought it'd be funny...

Steelmage99 wrote:

In b4 "that's a waveserpent".

Steelmage99 wrote:

Wargear:
Cleavage Field- Causes confusion and often overlooked details from opponent. On a roll of 1-6 on a D6 can also cause opponent to look away from the table during measuring and casualty removal.

OMG PHOTOSHOPPP!!!!1!!!ONE!

-_-

Sweet! I'm finally HARDOCORE!

My friends are going to be so jealous!

Sigh... sorry, folks, I'm not hardcore. Tits > Eldar.

Now, if it was a Baneblade and some IG I might have noticed them first.

Mistress of minis wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Wargear:
Cleavage Field- Causes confusion and often overlooked details from opponent. On a roll of 1-6 on a D6 can also cause opponent to look away from the table during measuring and casualty removal.

huh you say something.... lol

I like that pic.

It has not slipped past me that someone hasn't posted who painted those models. The silence pretty much says that he/she did not paint them.

Again just put elf heads on space marine bodies!

This thread is a cesspit of misguided idealism and a lame nerd slap-fight, to boot. I'm curious as to why it matters who painted said models. What possible significance does this have? Are collectors suddenly forbidden from using commission painters? Does it make me "less of a man", if I were to hire someone to paint my Baneblade?

For the love of Glod, it's a fething game! With little plastic soldiers! What the hell does it matter if someone creatively re-interprets the backround reading? You're all treating it as some kind of holy writ, for crying out loud.

I'm often ashamed of Dakka, but seldom more so than at this moment. You people are pitiful.

Here is the reason for my complaining on here.

1. No effort was made to put the models together.

2. The person that put them together didn't even paint them.

3. The said person only put 2 hours at the max putting the models together.

4. I'm asked what I think of them.

So no thought was put into building them. It took no time to put them together and then sent off to get painted. I'm to praise this person for what exactly? Being lazy? Doing a half hearted attempt at making female marines?

What is pitiful is people thinking this guy is some kind of gifted sculpture! If he/she had put ANY effort into making them more female they might have been good. If he/she had painted them then at least that part could be praised. But no, no effort was used and no talent expended in anything.

The end all of this whole thread is a guy glued on elf heads to marines and didn't even paint them.

You are right. It is pitiful.

You keep laying into him for the headswap thing, but it's much better than sculpting giant planets on their fething chests if you ask me.

Agamemnon2 wrote:This thread is a cesspit of misguided idealism and a lame nerd slap-fight, to boot. I'm curious as to why it matters who painted said models. What possible significance does this have? Are collectors suddenly forbidden from using commission painters? Does it make me "less of a man", if I were to hire someone to paint my Baneblade?

For the love of Glod, it's a fething game! With little plastic soldiers! What the hell does it matter if someone creatively re-interprets the backround reading? You're all treating it as some kind of holy writ, for crying out loud.

I'm often ashamed of Dakka, but seldom more so than at this moment. You people are pitiful.

Alright, Elitism I am fine with, but calling me pitiful is mean and inexcusable, no one has attempted to insult you in anyway, so you need to return the favor.

This thread has been reported. After a quick check all I can say is, what the feth is this gak?


Closed pending more review on merits of keeping thread open once I can figure out what the feth it is about