Working on a project just for fun, it's going to be a diorama with one Female Marine from each of GW's "Big 11" chapters, plus one from my Buddy's DIY Chapter.

Enjoy.

yeah,
Sounds awesome, can't wait to see it...
good start. I like some of the bits you've used, I can spot the dark angle, space wolf and black templar and I take it that the sally marine with be the one with the lizardmen bits?

Panic..

Edit: and the hammer dudette, is that your imperial fist?

Creativity is all well and good but I'm pretty certain there aren't any "Women of the Adeptus Astartes" just gonna throw that out there.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:Creativity is all well and good but I'm pretty certain there aren't any "Women of the Adeptus Astartes" just gonna throw that out there.

Says who?

I saw them in the original post. Photographic proof.

What's the generic model with the SB&CCW?

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:Creativity is all well and good but I'm pretty certain there aren't any "Women of the Adeptus Astartes" just gonna throw that out there.

There are now.

What's the generic model with the SB&CCW?

She'll be Raven Guard.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:Creativity is all well and good but I'm pretty certain there aren't any "Women of the Adeptus Astartes" just gonna throw that out there.

There are now.

Elf maiden in power armor isn't a SM.

What's the generic model with the SB&CCW?

She'll be Raven Guard.

RG ?
Next time Claws or jumppack

I like the models except the heads. They don't fit, some of them look like helmeted girls for wfb.

yeah,
well their pretty little heads would rattle around in a SM helmet...

PAnic...

I was hoping this would be a joke and it'd be a beautifully modeled display base without any models on it but then I saw Dr. Thunder's username and just sighed.

I can't wait for the video!

Women of the Adeptus Astartes gone wild

HFN

Sorry. Not a fan at all. Creative Liberty of an existing idea is all well and good, but I think women Space Marines just takes it too far. Not to mention, adding a non-existant female to the ranks of the founding chapters is just plain wrong and rather lame. It's one thing to create your own Chapter or whatever, but changing the entire dynamic and background of the Marines is just overboard.

Sorry. Don't like 'em.


Ghidorah

HuzzFivvNivv wrote:I can't wait for the video!

Women of the Adeptus Astartes gone wild

That would be a crime to ANYONE seeing it.

I need some brain-bleach...

These things look to be in better proportion than the regular bare headed screaming marines!

The small heads make the power armour look MASSive!

Good job!

Ghidorah wrote:adding a non-existant female to the ranks of the founding chapters is just plain wrong

You mean adding non-existent females to the ranks of non-existent marine chapters I hope.

I mean you do know this is all made up right?

Right?

Anyway keep on trucking Dr. T!

I'm surprised Doc Thunder managed to resist resculpting their breast-plates. He should be commended for that, at least.

You haters out there need to stop trying to control someone else's hobby.

I like them. My only criticisms would be to reposition the shield that looks to me like it's hanging a bit too low on Ms. White Scars crotch, and do something with the leather helmets to make them appear to fit in with the technology. I think if you can model some tiny wires and maybe get rid of the pointyness of some of them, and green stuff a little hair over them, you could turn them into something that looks like a brain-scanning harness to integrate better with the power armour.

I love the Salamanders girl.

JOHIRA wrote:You haters out there need to stop trying to control someone else's hobby.

You need to quit hating and trying to control other haters hating on other people's hobbies that they are trying to control.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:I mean you do know this is all made up right?

Right?

Wait... What? Made up?



Ghidorah

Nice idea you have there, though I'd opt for changing the heads, so they're not all the same. And I've seen you're previous stuff on the BnC, which is just simply awesome imo
I'd just be careful of Trolls in this thread. Damn flamers....

Nurglitch wrote:I'm surprised Doc Thunder managed to resist resculpting their breast-plates. He should be commended for that, at least.

Hear hear. I'm not a fan of the female space marine thing, but whatever. At least they don't look like the usual adolescent fantasy that he puts out.

He might finally be growing up.

Spacegoat wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I'm surprised Doc Thunder managed to resist resculpting their breast-plates. He should be commended for that, at least.

Hear hear. I'm not a fan of the female space marine thing, but whatever. At least they don't look like the usual adolescent fantasy that he puts out.

He might finally be growing up.

That was the worst fething praise I've heard in a long time. Nicely done.

Spacegoat wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I'm surprised Doc Thunder managed to resist resculpting their breast-plates. He should be commended for that, at least.

Hear hear. I'm not a fan of the female space marine thing, but whatever. At least they don't look like the usual adolescent fantasy that he puts out.

He might finally be growing up.

Jeebus considering this game is about screaming bald men fighting slightly spikier angry bald men atop piles of skulls I don't see how anyone can call anyone else adolescent.

Can't we all be geeks together?

I think that even though we all play a game about screaming bald men fighting slightly spikier angry bald men atop a pile of skulls, said bald men are all rolling their eyes at the guy in a corner going "tee hee boobs".

Look, almost every project this guy has put out has been centred around the same thing. Each and every valkyrie, guardswoman, black widow and whatever else I've missed, is the result of hours of planning. sculpting and converting oversized breasts. Think about that for a minute.

Ghidorah wrote:Sorry. Not a fan at all. Creative Liberty of an existing idea is all well and good, but I think women Space Marines just takes it too far. Not to mention, adding a non-existant female to the ranks of the founding chapters is just plain wrong and rather lame. It's one thing to create your own Chapter or whatever, but changing the entire dynamic and background of the Marines is just overboard.

Sorry. Don't like 'em.


Ghidorah

QQ more

Edit: And Doctor Thunder, gak looks sweet so far. Keep it up man. Doesn't matter what people say they just be hatin'.

Spacegoat wrote:
Look, almost every project this guy has put out has been centered around the same thing. Each and every valkyrie, guardswoman, black widow and whatever else I've missed, is the result of hours of planning. sculpting and converting oversized breasts. Think about that for a minute.

If you want to comment on other projects I've done, then the place to do that is in those threads.
Now, if you are going to spam every new thread I make with critique and commentary about my other projects, not only are you breaking forum rules, but you are bordering on internet stalking.

I know that you think these things you say need to be said, but they don't, and in your crusade to judge me creepy you are participating in behavior far creepier then anything you've accused me of.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Spacegoat wrote:
Look, almost every project this guy has put out has been centered around the same thing. Each and every valkyrie, guardswoman, black widow and whatever else I've missed, is the result of hours of planning. sculpting and converting oversized breasts. Think about that for a minute.

If you want to comment on other projects I've done, then the place to do that is in those threads.
Now, if you are going to spam every new thread I make with critique and commentary about my other projects, then you are participating in internet stalking

Which is creepier? Which is more adolescent?

I think it's fair to criticize your obsession in a thread titled "Women of the Adeptus Astartes Diorama" in which you create yet another set of female SM. If this thread were titled, "Check out my biker Warboss/Carnifex" and the conversion involved anything NOT related to gender transformations, then I'm certain people would give you a break.

As it stands right now, you currently have TWO "give X Imperial Army boobs" projects on the front page of this forum at once. Don't bother telling people it's not relevant.


edit: Oh, and your avatar doesn't help things, either.

Broken Loose wrote:=I think it's fair to criticize your obsession in a thread titled "Women of the Adeptus Astartes Diorama" in which you create yet another set of female SM.

You have four posts on Dakka, all four of which consist of trolling my threads. How do you think that makes you appear?

Keep up the adolescent conversions. I like em.

Lordhat wrote:Keep up the adolescent conversions. I like em.

You're right. I just need to take the high road and back off.

I'm out.

I think it's pointless trying to continue this discussion any further. The well has been thoroughly contaminated already. There's nothing as intolerant as nerds, after all.

Okay folks,

If you don't care for someone's modeling choices, feel free to tell them why in a polite way and be done with it. If you can't manage to do this without insulting them at the same time then you need to refrain from posting and consider using the 'ignore' feature on this person so you don't have to see their posts.

at first i thought this was wemon of the adeptus mechanicus, wich you know would fit the fluff...

my honest criticizim is you would need to sculpt each one of these lady's from scratch. throwing a woodelf head on aspace marine and sayin its a girls is like slapping a honda sticker over a chevy logo.

and one last thing, give credit to whoe ver you have paint them for these girls, unlike las time.

Right, back to the topic. The heads, while pretty nice sculpts, don't always depict the visual "hook" of the chapter in the best possible way, so here's some ideas that came to me for different "looks".

- Raven Guard: Goth look, maybe? Long dark hair, pale skin, etc. It could be construed as a bit comical, but it's really not any more so than their official look, which is pretty silly to begin with.

- Space Wolves: Wild berzerker hair, battle scars. Pretty much what the regular blokes have, too.

- Iron Hands: Bionic woman?

- Blood Angels: Blond hair, blue eyes, statuesque. BA has always struck me as the cloned-ubermensch chapter.

- Salamanders: I want to say "dreadlocks", but that's pretty much playing to stereotypes. Perhaps bald, for practicality's sake when working with hot metal.

Some of these you could possibly do with Hasslefree head packs, others might be trickier.

This is how I see it, which of course means this is the only reasonable way to view it:

For funsies I say go for it. It is your army, have fun. Where trouble comes a brewing is if you try to say it is canon. We all know this isn't canon. Doctor Thunder is having fun with his project and they are his (I'm guessing) models so why not enjoy it, or at least let him do so. If Doc Thunder starts coming down the mountain telling us that we have to accept female space marines as cannon then it would be ok to pull out the asbestos suits and grab some flamethrowers and have at it.

And last, but not least: boobies.

I think its a funny idea, and its your own time and money do whatever you like. Can't wait to see the finished project.

I second Agamemnon2's suggestions. It's the head that says 'Eyes up here!' so you should should spend as much effort - if not more - in customising those as you have with the rest of the models. Apart from the Ultrasmurf - for whom the slight stiffness is a boon - the posing also needs to be brought up to the standard of the rest of the model. As it stands, the ladies look neither like they're caught in the middle of an action nor enthusiastically striking a heroic pose for the photographer.

Lovin' the idea of distilling a whole Chapter's identity into a single mini.

Too many of them look the same, same poses with slightly different wargear etc, and the 3 different heads between 12 different representatives from extremely unique chapters is just dull, especially considering it's the only thing making them female at the moment and they don't really suit anyway.

I'm not a big fan of the theme, but I'm even less of a fan of the execution.

dumbuket wrote:I was hoping this would be a joke and it'd be a beautifully modeled display base without any models on it but then I saw Dr. Thunder's username and just sighed.

Genius!

My problem with this is the choice of heads.

Wood Elves are too 'girly' as opposed to adult woman. female marines should be at least moderately butch. Think Vasquez or new Starbuck as an absolute minimum.

As this IS adolescent fantasy, no excuses or apologies needed, you could be forgiven from stealing away from the overly beefy imagery, but alsom remember that the marines are in standard adeptus power armour, not sob power armour and this by default indicates that your female astartes have body types not to disimilar to the males.

A female chstpiece would not be completely inappropriate but nevertheless the marines would appear very flat from the outside. Beestings, nothing more. Yes it is best to model nothing than the DD (minimum!) cups so often seen on female conversion minis.

The real armouring change needs to come at the hip and shoulders. While too late for these models next time file a little from the shoulder and replace the arms normally. Meanwhile cut the leg section into two equal pieces and build up a slightly larger crotch gap.

While subtle the slight distortion between shoulder and hip width will immediately indicate the body shape as female. it also helps to shave a tiny amount from the bottom of the torso piece so that the marine is fractionally shorter. If you only just notice the difference, the better it will be.

I am not a fan on female astartes for orthodox mainstream chapters but that is up to you.

Drunkspleen wrote:Too many of them look the same, same poses with slightly different wargear etc, and the 3 different heads between 12 different representatives from extremely unique chapters is just dull, especially considering it's the only thing making them female at the moment and they don't really suit anyway.

I'm not a big fan of the theme, but I'm even less of a fan of the execution.

Never painted ten (10) marines in different colours for the hell of it? I'm painting a Tan (TAN) Marine right now, with no intention of fielding an army of them (yet).
The kid's trying other genders, colours, species, and if he gets the pox it's his own fault.

All you did was put WHFB elf heads on 40k kits. Forgive me for not being impressed. And I do commend you for not putting DD Breasts on these models.

I kinda agree with the above posters, hand sculpting each one of the models would be a massive undertaking, but would look rather nice in the end, giving as you could capture each chapter's essence a bit more that way.

Plus your GS skills are top, put them to use here!

I think - despite the other opinions - they NEED some sort of female augmentation other than female heads. Otherwise they just look like women's heads on male SM bodies.

Soooo, make with the boobies.

robrov21 wrote:I think - despite the other opinions - they NEED some sort of female augmentation other than female heads. Otherwise they just look like women's heads on male SM bodies.

Soooo, make with the boobies.

And we've already seen what kind of reaction THAT creates. I could taste the collective nerd rage in the Widows thread.
What people don't realize is that their chest wouldn't be that big to fit the armor. They probably wouldn't have a chest at all considering how massive their basic shape would be to fit SM armor. Testosterone woudl need to be put into them at some point, right? The chest on the armor is just a looks thing, not literal. Maybe Doc can come up with another way to make them unique.

Stormtroopers have girls, so can marines.

And we've already seen what kind of reaction THAT creates. I could taste the collective nerd rage in the Widows thread.
What people don't realize is that their chest wouldn't be that big to fit the armor. They probably wouldn't have a chest at all considering how massive their basic shape would be to fit SM armor. Testosterone woudl need to be put into them at some point, right? The chest on the armor is just a looks thing, not literal. Maybe Doc can come up with another way to make them unique.

Alright already! If you crack open the can-o-worms that is scale and proportions when dealing with SM, we will be in a lot of trouble. Logic really has very little to do with the fantasy world of WH40K.
I had thought the "Make with the boobies" comment adequately presented as sarcasm, but I suppose a more spoon-fed approach will be needed next time.

My original comment stands, more female-esque parts. Like perhaps painting them pink, or giving them camel-toe. (<------JOKE.JOKE.WARNING)

Ahh, I wasn't attacking at you or anyone ^^ Sorry if it seemed like it.

I was just suggesting maybe a slightly different way to make them more unique would be better.

Came for power armored tits, thread does not deliver.

If you were trying for just a diorama of marine chapter representatives, it wouldn't have been a bad effort. But calling them women and then slapping wood elf heads on them is doesn't look good. There's no coherent theme between the heads and the bodies, and it looks silly. The scale of the heads is wrong and the headdresses on wood elves looks completely out of place on 40k minis, or at least on marine bodies. You should either sculpt proper female "marine" heads (as fluff-crushing as that is), or just abandon the female aspect. I don't understand why every project you do has to involve vaginas.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

that's awesome.

Anyways, I don't think it says that there are no female SMs anywhere. I guess it's just kinda implie, what with the Sisters of Battle and all.

The Thousandth Son wrote:
that's awesome.

Anyways, I don't think it says that there are no female SMs anywhere. I guess it's just kinda implie, what with the Sisters of Battle and all.

The process kills women.

Sisters of battle have 3's in most stats for a reason. They cannot use the black carapace. It's not implied, it's stated.

Noise Marines growing mammary glands DO NOT count as chicks.

HuzzFivvNivv wrote:I can't wait for the video!

Women of the Adeptus Astartes gone wild

HFN

This would be the least "worth it" video ever....hours and hours of them dimanteling their armor...for what? Enhanced mucles, super-boobs that shoot poison and plugs all over their bodies....not to mention they'd probably be pissed that someone was "ordering" them to this anyway, thats a LOT of buildup for very poor payoff.....and lets be honest...if the Girls of AAGW aren't enjoying it...should we?

Now that someone's mentioned it, I'm waiting for the thread where Doc Thunder sculpts tits on a Carnifex.

i can see how "battle brother" "brother captain" "forge father" can be confused with women.

tbh, i agree with most... this seems even more over the top than an entire female space marine army.

The Thousandth Son wrote: that's awesome.

Anyways, I don't think it says that there are no female SMs anywhere. I guess it's just kinda implie, what with the Sisters of Battle and all.

uhm... there are sisters of battle BECAUSE there are no female space marines.

the_trooper wrote:Sisters of battle have 3's in most stats for a reason. They cannot use the black carapace. It's not implied, it's stated.

what he said.

Nurglitch wrote:Now that someone's mentioned it, I'm waiting for the thread where Doc Thunder sculpts tits on a Carnifex.

or just 'junk' in general...

In the interest of true gender equality, we definitely need some Eldar 'Manshees' and 'Daemanettes'. Let's get somebody to put some boobs on a chaos dreadnought and finally explain just why they're so angry.

Ahh, I wasn't attacking at you or anyone ^^ Sorry if it seemed like it.

It's all good. No worries.

Gitzbitah wrote:In the interest of true gender equality, we definitely need some Eldar 'Manshees'

That's the kind of thinking that led to male wyches.

Something about the Black Carapace not working on females pops up in my mind. However, that does not take away the fact that you shouldn't model female Space Marines.

The only critique I have for your models is that they are simply Marines with Wood Elf heads on them, I was hoping you would "effeminate" the Power Armour a bit.

Check out these:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/159605
http://www.coolminiornot.com/169720
http://www.coolminiornot.com/169721

I always figured a Dark Eldar mid-life crisis where warriors start realizing they're getting up there in years and aren't quite so attractive to the ladies any more, so they cram their saggy man-butt into pointy speedos so they can ride around on jetbikes was what led to male wyches.

Malika2 wrote:
I was hoping you would "effeminate" the Power Armour a bit.

I did that for my Black Widows, so I thought I'd try a simpler route this time.

I'm not going to bash...much, but I expected something more here...

A head swap isn't all that difficult to pull off, especially with marines.

But then again, the Black Widows army was...bleh, so maybe minimal conversions are better...

Maybe some paint might make them a little better, give them the steampunk-esque look that I envision woman would have were they to wear Male power armour.


Ooh i got my next project...

Orks of the Adeptus Astartes! Heads swaps...er pics to follow...

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:I'm not going to bash...much, but I expected something more here...

A head swap isn't all that difficult to pull off, especially with marines.

But then again, the Black Widows army was...bleh.

Damned if I do and Damned if I don't, eh?

Then don't. Please. For children.

Doctor Thunder wrote:Damned if I do and Damned if I don't, eh?

You make it sound like there are only those two options.

People objected to the Black Widows because they were just too over-the-top.
They're objecting to these (those who aren't simply firmly against female Marines in the first place) because they're just male Marines with a headswap.

The middle ground... with power armour converted to a slightly less bulky, more female look (but without the overstated breastplates) I think would be better received.

insaniak wrote:

Doctor Thunder wrote:Damned if I do and Damned if I don't, eh?

You make it sound like there are only those two options.

People objected to the Black Widows because they were just too over-the-top.
They're objecting to these (those who aren't simply firmly against female Marines in the first place) because they're just male Marines with a headswap.

The middle ground... with power armour converted to a slightly less bulky, more female look (but without the overstated breastplates) I think would be better received.

I think GW makes those. Sisters of Battle they're called?

=][= RulesViolation_Insult =][= if the only things that are being said are basically "put boobs on them" or "the WE heads look bad, try something different" then thats nothing good to say

and, like my gramps told me, if you don't have anything good to say(ideas for different heads, something else?) don't say anything at all.

it avoids things that should not be on a family-friendly forum like flaming and general rudness.

my two cents on the whole thread.

nice models by the way, i actually like the conversions, although i would sculp female heads or convert them from something like escher ganger heads.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote: Sisters of Battle they're called?

Sisters of Battle are not Space Marines.

If you're making female Space Marines, putting them in Battle Sister armour would be wrong since it's completely different, both in style and in (fluff-wise) capabilities.

Well it wouldn't be wrong to use sisters as that is waht a female in power armour looks like.

You have no idea what a female space marine looks like style-wise because there aren't any (discounting the one horrible rogue trader chick) and as such you also can't argue the fluff as the fact that female space marines are anti-fluff as it is.

I'm not saying he can't do this project, just put some effort into it. Scuplting torpedo sized breasts on every figure is one end of the creepy spectrum, and the simple headswap is just lazy.

If you really want to do this, start modifying armour, make some greenstuff effort.

A space marine's power amrour is made for a man, 7-8 feet tall and bulky. A female een the same height would be radically different in body shape that having the same armour makes no sense.

Joyous_Oblivion wrote:Well it wouldn't be wrong to use sisters as that is waht a female in power armour looks like.

No, it's what a female in Sororitas Power Armour looks like.

Again, SoB armour is not the same as Space Marine Imperator Armour. It has a more basic construction and systems, to allow for the fact that battle sisters don't have the black carapace, and so can't interface with the complex systems that Marines use.

A female Space Marine, presumably, would have the same enhancements as her male counterparts, and would be using the same armour, simply tailored to a different body shape. Which Techmarines should certainly be able to manage, since they would have to modify and custom-fit the armour for regular Marines as well, to account for different heights and builds.


As an aside, we've had people in the past present SoB models as 'female Space Marine' proxies. They general reception to that has been that they look like SoB instead of Space Marines.

discounting the one horrible rogue trader chick)

Actually, there were two. But yes, they were horrible models.

and as such you also can't argue the fluff as the fact that female space marines are anti-fluff as it is.

The fluff is a starting point, not a strict absolute measure of all things acceptable. And is currently stalled. Anything that happens after the 'current' time period, or anything that happened in any one of the numerous 'black' periods where records were largely lost or never kept in the first place, is completely up to us.

I can come up with half a dozen explanations right off the top of my head for female Space Marines...
- mutation in the geneseed, allowing (or forcing) it to work with Female chromosones

- mutation by Chaos/planetary anomolies/blessing of the Emperor, turning the regular population of a given recruiting planet into Space Marine-like behemoths... just implant a black carapace and whamo, instant Space Marine

- specific experimental adaptation by a rogue Adeptus Mechanicus adept to increase the potential fighting pool... kind of works, but they only live a few months... Oh! The tragedy...

- the old 'Missing Legion' idea... they were possible all along with a specific geneseed created by the Emperor, but nobody knew about it as they had been missing since the Great Crusade...

- Recovery of an STC detailing advanced genetic modification procedures previously unknown to the Imperium

- There's this Chapter that appears at the battlefield, right? And they're women. And despite various enquiries by numerous Inquisitorial representitives, neither they, nor anybody else, seems to know where they come from...


That's just straight off the top of my head. And all, in my opinion, fitting in perfectly with established fluff.

A space marine's power amrour is made for a man, 7-8 feet tall and bulky. A female een the same height would be radically different in body shape that having the same armour makes no sense.

...and would be just as radically different from an un-modified Sister of Battle.

Or maybe Tzeentch decides to pull a presto-changeo on some SM stranded in the Warp, turning them from "outies" to "innies".

Exalt insaniak!

You have become my modeling spirit hero!

Malika2 wrote:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/159605

This. Get this man to get craft you some models. I don't like the heads but I think the project is awesome. I don't think I actually know of any other female heads that would work though. Maybe try looking elswhere PP has women in it's power armor (oh noes!).

Edit: Just though of something! You could get him to make you some differen't pieces then do a bunch of casts of the pieces and have a ton of awesome Space Marine Wurmenz "Hurr- em uh... heeerrr"

In all honesty, whatever the geneseed does to a human to make them a marine is probably not going to preserve much of a female's secondary sexual characteristics (read: boobs). After all, if you look at bodybuilder/weight lifters, the females don't look all that different from the males. Of course, this comes from the idea that a Space Marine is a giant musclebound maniac.

Orlanth's suggestion of suggesting feminity via alterations to the hips and legs of the model would probably be the most "realistic" way of going about things.

Otherwise, why not just sculpt slimmer, more "feminine" power armour? Headswapping won't work unless you use suitable heads, and SOB heads are probably more appropriate than WE heads...

My 2 cents.

Orlanth's suggestion of suggesting feminity via alterations to the hips and legs of the model would probably be the most "realistic" way of going about things.

Everyone suggests that, but no one notices when you do it. For my Black Widows, I widened the hips and narrowed the shoulders and even narrowed the waist, but no one ever noticed. It ends up just being a lot of wasted effort.

ZandrisIV wrote:

Otherwise, why not just sculpt slimmer, more "feminine" power armour?

Just sculpt a brand new model completely out of green stuff?

Are you kidding me?

If I could sculpt a model from scratch, don't you think I would have done that already?

Believe me, I've tried, and I've got a dozen failures in my bitz box. I think you guys are forgetting that it's easy to be idealistic when offering advice, but I have to work with the budget and skills that I have.

If I had my way, I would totally pay a sculptor to make a mini like the one Malika showed from CoolMiniorNot, but so far I have not been able to find anybody who could do it within a modest budget.

Girly marines would probably work better as a "true scale" project. Then the whole 7 foot tall thing becomes more noticable. Thats my thought

K

Pay no attention to the naysayers, brother DT - they be hatin'.

All of the fluff I've read on marines (and I've got all of the SM stuff going back to RT [just not BL, it doesn't count]) says that the implants are keyed to hormones, not to specific chromosomal expression. Even if it was, XY is just a 'broken' XX.

I'm hearing a lot of "they're your minis, do what you want - only DON'T do this or this or this, or that either.".



Some more variation with the heads/hair would help a lot with this
More nordic blonde and haughty for the Space Wolf Valkyr.
Emo fringe for the Dark Angel ("You don't understand my troubles")
Goth chick for the Raven Guard.
Bald and kinda creepy pale flesh for the Iron Hands chick (think 'borg' - 7of9 before she was deborged).

Keep it up.

I think it's an excellent idea, but you could make some huge improvements. Removing their clothing, for example.

Nice work Doctor Thunder. Good use of WFB bits on the Salamander. Looking forward to seeing these gals painted up. Will these models fit onto a scenic base?

Malika2 wrote:
Check out these:
http://www.coolminiornot.com/159605

Very Cool link Malika2 - Thanks!

I'm willing to say that if they were going to make women space marines the subjects would be altered to resemble men with a lot of their anatomy removed since they serve no use in war. That would cut down on all the time that would be wasted modifying armor.

I hate to be yet another hater. It seems like you've already got plenty of those.

Just...one thing that is seriously making my brain itch.

I'm not very...fluff-inclined, I guess you could say. But I was always under the understanding that Space Marines were at least partially cloned from the genetic material of the Emperor.

No Black Carapace and all of that aside, how in the hell do you clone a woman from a man?

Leave the lad alone.

If he want's to make female Space Marines, woopty doo. If you want to get all "Well, fluff-wise..." - you may want to click the big red X at the top right of your screen.

Keep it up, Thunder.

~sA

yea im sorry, the idea is a good one and all. i dont care if the fluff says there isnt female SM, the idea is cool. but if your going to make female SM IMO you have to make them look like women. those minis just look like SM men with slim and slender faces

Chrysaor686 wrote:
No Black Carapace and all of that aside, how in the hell do you clone a woman from a man?

I would guess the heavy hormonal and gene therapy helps. That and it all being totally made up.

I love the nerd rage even more than the 25mm bewbs.

FWIW I prefer looking at the pretty space wimminz to the bald screaming space menz. If I had my way, 40K would be all about the girl on girl action with less beefy man wrestling.

Seems a heck of alot easier to get an average gal into a game with kick ass women Buffy/Lara Croft/She-Ras then weird action figures fighting ugly things, too.

Chrysaor686 wrote:I was always under the understanding that Space Marines were at least partially cloned from the genetic material of the Emperor.

No Black Carapace and all of that aside, how in the hell do you clone a woman from a man?

If it helps, think of it this way:
The vast majority of our genetics are gender neutral. Of the 23 pairs, only the final one has any effect on gender. In the final pair women have XX and Men have XY. Since men have an X chromosome as well, which is what they pass onto their daughters, it is possible to take two X chromosomes from any man and create a female version of him.

For the love of god man! I keep checking the thread when it's got unread posts, but all I see are arguments over the merits of female marines! I DEMAND updated pictures! You hear me?!

first off girls have been in power armour since Rogue Trader. however these where not space marines.

that girl sculpt looks much to much like bubble gum crisis.

No such thing as much to much like Bubblegum Crisis.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Orlanth's suggestion of suggesting feminity via alterations to the hips and legs of the model would probably be the most "realistic" way of going about things.

Everyone suggests that, but no one notices when you do it. For my Black Widows, I widened the hips and narrowed the shoulders and even narrowed the waist, but no one ever noticed. It ends up just being a lot of wasted effort.

Hmm, we do now!

The most feminie part of the thread so far is in your above reply.

"Honey I changed my armour and you didn't notice." *Sigh* "Men!" **THWAP**

The shield over the crotch in the second pic really doesn't work for me. It looks, well, glued-on.

Just like your Black Widows - love those models, but I hate the "fluff!"

...On another note, I gotta show my buddy who plays Warhammer Fantasy High Elves this picture. Your use of High Elf helmeted heads reinforces my constant taunting of his Elves as sissy "femmes!"

For the love of god man! I keep checking the thread when it's got unread posts, but all I see are arguments over the merits of female marines! I DEMAND updated pictures! You hear me?!

Working on it. Don't expect any pics for at least a week, though.

Orlanth wrote:

The most feminie part of the thread so far is in your above reply.

"Honey I changed my armour and you didn't notice." *Sigh* "Men!" **THWAP**

LOL

I never noticed that, but you're right.

they look good to me. they are far from fluff cannon, but then again, who cares..

doing something outside the box is just as much fun as following fluff dogma..

well done.

Oh noes! ... His little toys arn't brainwashed by fictional imperial dogma!

Even if you don't agree with the fluff(which is fairly resonable anyway. I mean come on ... the fluff can't even figure out how many breasts it wants demonettes to have: 2 coverd, 2 -6 uncovered, no wait only one and its covered) step back and remember this is only a game. In a creative hobby I consider everythign tht is not the same as what the other 4,000 people are doing to be a plus.

I have been impressed by all of Doc Thunders armies so far, and have had the pleasure to play him and see them in person, and fluff or no fluff it's fun to see someone put down models you have never seen before. And spend 15 minutes, going oh.. those must be your veterans, wow, that plasma conversion looks sweet, what did you use for the torsos, I don't recognize that part, Where did you get those heads from, etc.

Keep it up Doc, looking forward to seeing further progres on these and I really am looking foreard to seeing the vehicles you showed us at Mind Games a few weeks ago when they get painted up. Those were some pretty sweet conversions!

Meph

Its not that I don't like the Idea of female Marines, its that all he did was put WHFB heads on PRE-EXISTING 40k kits. Its not impressive, and alot of people didn't like the widows chapter (myself included) because over-seized breasts do not make a male sculpted model (broad-shoulders, non- shaped hips) into a female model, it just makes them look silly.

However i must add that i really did like some of the female guardsmen models he made and DT should do more threads on those because i've always wanted a rag-tag female Hardened Vet unit for my guard.

Black Widows are the only places I can see breasts. There should be more boobie power armor.

I mean come on ... the fluff can't even figure out how many breasts it wants demonettes to have: 2 coverd, 2 -6 uncovered, no wait only one and its covered)

You do realize that there is no fluff on what the Chaos gods randomly decide to put on their creations...


I know it is fictional fluff, but you can't compare a random thing like chaos daemonettes number of breasts to Imperial Doctrine.

Space Marines with boobs makes perfect sense for most teenagers, so who am I to say no?

My main issue with the Black Widows was their implants being genetic.
Fabulous Bile isn't that great. That's gotta be a huge alteration to the Space Marine process.

For these marines, I agree that the one with the shields (white scars?) looks weird with the shield glued to her thighs. The salamander looks cool though.

Red_Lives wrote:

However i must add that i really did like some of the female guardsmen models he made and DT should do more threads on those because i've always wanted a rag-tag female Hardened Vet unit for my guard.

You will. I've got plans for a kick-ass female cadian army, I've just been holding off for the new IG codex to come out.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:I was always under the understanding that Space Marines were at least partially cloned from the genetic material of the Emperor.

No Black Carapace and all of that aside, how in the hell do you clone a woman from a man?

If it helps, think of it this way:
The vast majority of our genetics are gender neutral. Of the 23 pairs, only the final one has any effect on gender. In the final pair women have XX and Men have XY. Since men have an X chromosome as well, which is what they pass onto their daughters, it is possible to take two X chromosomes from any man and create a female version of him.

That might be some bad fluff, it's impossible due to genetic imprinting, uniparental disomys are always bad news. If they receive 2 copies of the same chromosome from the same parent, you'll be lucky if they can spell their names with a purple crayon, never mind use a bolter.

RoosterCogburn wrote:

That might be some bad fluff, it's impossible due to genetic imprinting, uniparental disomys are always bad news. If they receive 2 copies of the same chromosome from the same parent, you'll be lucky if they can spell their names with a purple crayon, never mind use a bolter.

You registered on Dakka just to post that?

If you don't like something big woop, don't look at it. An army is to be enjoyed by the person making it, and as long as you can tell what it is and what it counts as there shouldn't be too many problems.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

RoosterCogburn wrote:

That might be some bad fluff, it's impossible due to genetic imprinting, uniparental disomys are always bad news. If they receive 2 copies of the same chromosome from the same parent, you'll be lucky if they can spell their names with a purple crayon, never mind use a bolter.

You registered on Dakka just to post that?

everyone needs to start somewhere.

Doctor T

I hope you don't take my post as negative, and I'llmention right here that you idea for a Female Cadian force is very very necessary!

I think, what you're trying to do, is to fill a void in t he fluff that deals with women in the WH40K universe. Its one of my biggest bug-bears, and its what makes other Sci Fi games, in my opinion, better!

However....I feel its a great waste of your time and effort to try to distort, what is essentially, someone elses ideas to suit, what perhaps, you and I feel is an oversight on their part.

Space Marines are male...GW says so....so lets leave that point where it is. However, like your Cadian idea, why not do like some of us are doing / plan to do, and simply create your own "race" that can be used with WH40K.....that way you can set the rules, creativity, etc on your own terms.

GW Space Marines were perhaps created in a more...less enlightened time, and GW has never done anything to set this right for the more "modern" age...I guess, if it sells, then go right on selling it.

So in short, my advice would be, innovate...don't waste your time and effort correcting the short-sightedness of GW.

Delephont wrote:Doctor T

I hope you don't take my post as negative, and I'llmention right here that you idea for a Female Cadian force is very very necessary!

I think, what you're trying to do, is to fill a void in t he fluff that deals with women in the WH40K universe. Its one of my biggest bug-bears, and its what makes other Sci Fi games, in my opinion, better!

However....I feel its a great waste of your time and effort to try to distort, what is essentially, someone elses ideas to suit, what perhaps, you and I feel is an oversight on their part.

Space Marines are male...GW says so....so lets leave that point where it is. However, like your Cadian idea, why not do like some of us are doing / plan to do, and simply create your own "race" that can be used with WH40K.....that way you can set the rules, creativity, etc on your own terms.

GW Space Marines were perhaps created in a more...less enlightened time, and GW has never done anything to set this right for the more "modern" age...I guess, if it sells, then go right on selling it.

So in short, my advice would be, innovate...don't waste your time and effort correcting the short-sightedness of GW.

Actually, I don't think it has to do with short sightedness or bigotry on GW's part. I think they just decided that since their sculptors can't sculpt decent looking women, and they won't hire Werner Klocke, they just decided that all Space Marines (and most aliens) will be male.

@ Whitedragon

With respect.....thats rubbish. GW is a big company....a seriously big company, with a worldwide presents. If they wanted to sculpt women, which I don't believe they do, they'd find the capable personnel to do it.

You've only got to look at some of the independant miniature makers out there, and other companies like Corvus Bellie (Infinity range) to see how well the female fomr can be interpreted into miniature format.....

whitedragon wrote:

Actually, I don't think it has to do with short sightedness or bigotry on GW's part. I think they just decided that since their sculptors can't sculpt decent looking women, and they won't hire Werner Klocke, they just decided that all Space Marines (and most aliens) will be male.

And let's face it. While Werner Klocke is a veritable sculpting copy machine, his faces all look the same and his models are really starting to lose that "hey that's cool look" since he hasn't done anything to change the faces.. (they all look alien and squished.. )

i also understand that most of the people that play warhammer games are infact men. Im sure the demand for them to make all females in pretty low. BUT I agree that its kindda lame that they dont make more females in this game. as for Dr thunders fluff i think its fine, i too think anyone that wants to do something different from GW is pretty alright in my book. im all for creativity. just for the current minis, they still dont look like females, and ive seen the others that Dr thunder has done, so i KNOW it can happen

Delephont wrote:why not do like some of us are doing / plan to do, and simply create your own "race" that can be used with WH40K.....that way you can set the rules, creativity, etc on your own terms.

That is a really good idea, Delephont. I thank you for it.

I don't think Games Workshop is sexist in the least. There are plenty of strong women in Games Workshop fiction, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts, and Ciaphas Cain all come to mind. I think the main thing is women usually aren't inclined to war and violence. The ratio of men to women in the US army is 4 to 1, last I heard. It's not an issue of sexism it's just most women aren't into the whole killing people thing.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:It's not an issue of sexism it's just most women aren't into the whole killing people thing.

Besides, what's wrong with being sexy?

/Nigel

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:I don't think Games Workshop is sexist in the least. There are plenty of strong women in Games Workshop fiction, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts, and Ciaphas Cain all come to mind. I think the main thing is women usually aren't inclined to war and violence. The ratio of men to women in the US army is 4 to 1, last I heard. It's not an issue of sexism it's just most women aren't into the whole killing people thing.

Yeah, but we're not talking about the fluff so much....its the miniature range thats under scrutiny. From a fluff perspective, the Imperium of the WH40K setting is nothing like current day military ideals....in the Grim future, everyone who can bleed is fair game for the military machine of the Imperial guard.....

I mean, you're talking about current parallels, but where can you find an organisation like the Adpetus Sororitas? Where the Sisters of Battle are as inclinded towards war and violence as their Brother Astartes.....

Because they are holy warriors of the Emperor who answered the call. You're either raised as a sister or join, it's not like the beat you on the head and throw you into the monastery. Not all Sororitas are warriors either. Some are just medics and spiritual guides. The Imperial Guard probably don't recruit as many women because, you know that's where babies come from and they don't want to send their baby machines to war (not my actual views on women).

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:The Imperial Guard probably don't recruit as many women because, you know that's where babies come from and they don't want to send their baby machines to war (not my actual views on women).

That's not what the fluff says, though. The fluff says that half of all Cadian troopers are female, yet the cadian range doesn't contain a single female model. That is very irritating to people who want to make their armies fluffy.
Catachans are also a mixed force, yet GW only made one female model (of very limited usefulness), and no longer sells it.
The ranks of commissars is also mixed, yet the range is entirely male (they did make one female sculpt, but, again, no longer sell it)

I would agree with you if GW simply made fewer female IG models then male models, but the fact is they effectively make none at all. In the current IG line, I count 312 different sculpts, which includes the collectors line that are still available for purchase, with the tanith, mordian, tallern, and steel logion. Of those sculpts, 2 are female. Just two, and both of them are effectively useless, as one is the warrior women sculpt from the last chancers, who wears a weird costume and so won't fit into any army she's placed in, and one tanith girl, who suffers from the same problem. Further componding the problem is that neither are available individually.

If GW made 20 percent of their IG line female, or even 10 percent, no one would complain. The problem is, they make less then a tenth of a percent.

I think its been fairly obvious that I am not a fan of Doc. T's stuff. His skill is proven. He is an accomplished sculptor and a pretty good painter, too. The rocket boobs were over the top, but the work was top-notch.

My issues are not the execution of his ideas, but the ideas themselves. There are no female imaginary (for you, Kyoto) Space Marines. None. Why just change the entire established background? Just to satiate some adolescent hormonal desire to sculpt boobies? It's not that he made women. It's that he made women imaginary (for you again, Kyoto) SPACE MARINES. Had he done a "women of the imaginary (yes... Kyoto) Imperial Guard", I would have loved it. If he had done imaginary (guess who?) Imperial Guard women in a Guard army, I would have likely given nothing but praise. As I said, his execution is great, his idea is bad.

Delephont wrote:GW is a big company....a seriously big company, with a worldwide presents.

Hi GW. I'll take 6 Fire Prisms and a Windrider Host, please. I'm in America. Thanks.



Ghidorah

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Orlanth's suggestion of suggesting feminity via alterations to the hips and legs of the model would probably be the most "realistic" way of going about things.

Everyone suggests that, but no one notices when you do it. For my Black Widows, I widened the hips and narrowed the shoulders and even narrowed the waist, but no one ever noticed. It ends up just being a lot of wasted effort.

If you have to make female marines, that approach would actually be better. Subtle differences are always better than going over the top, which the Black Widows certainly are. Besides, bareheads aside, I don't think you would actually be able to tell...

Doc, you ever thought of using the RT era plastics as a basis for female SM? Compared to the current builds, their proportions look about right.

Ghidorah wrote:Had he done a "women of the imaginary Imperial Guard", I would have loved it. If he had done imaginary Imperial Guard women in a Guard army, I would have likely given nothing but praise.

You haven't seen these?

Ghidorah wrote: There are no female imaginary (for you, Kyoto) Space Marines. None.

There are also no imaginary 'Coruscating Death Skulls of Doom Chapter' Space Marines in the official background. Does that mean that players can't actually design their own Chapter of Space Marines?


Once again, the fluff is a starting point, not a catalogue of everything that exists within the Warhammer 40K background. It's a big galaxy.

insaniak wrote:
There are also no imaginary 'Coruscating Death Skulls of Doom Chapter' Space Marines in the official background. Does that mean that players can't actually design their own Chapter of Space Marines?

Yes, but if it was stated in the fluff that The High Lords of Terra said no one could name their (imaginary) chapter using "death," "skulls," and "doom" together in it's name, then either you would be sorely out of luck if you wanted that name, or you would have to come up with some sort of (imaginary) justification for that name (such as "They're totally rebellious and they don't care about the rules. Now they're on the run for a crime they didn't commit!).

Of course, you wouldn't have to do that if you were just modeling what a Coruscating Death Skulls of Doom Chapter (imaginary) Marine would look like. I don't think Dr. Thunder is trying to say that the Space Wolves and Ultramarines are actually hiding (imaginary) female members in their ranks.

Doctor Thunder wrote:You haven't seen these?

Oh hell. Those were yours? Why did I not associate the name? Again, the great execution, great work, AND they fit in perfectly with the Guard.

insaniak wrote:There are also no imaginary 'Coruscating Death Skulls of Doom Chapter' Space Marines in the official background. Does that mean that players can't actually design their own Chapter of Space Marines?.

Absolutely not. In fact, GW has left that option purposefully and blatantly open for us. In many background-driven images, listings, and informative text containing lists of Chapters (founding, secondary, etc.) they have left some entries as "Unknown". This allows us to make up our own. Now, if somebody were to come here and go all Pan'Fo on us like, "Lookee! Here's my army, the 'Coruscating Death Skulls of Doom Chapter'. These guys are the biggest secret of the Imperium. They are actually the REAL first chapter ever. They had co-Primarchs. They were Lion El' Jonson and Fulgrim. When the Emperor said he needed them to decide who would be the leader, they thumb-wrestled and the loser had to join a different chapter..." he would get laughed and reamed right off of the forums.

insaniak wrote:It's a big galaxy.

With a SMALL (relative) elite fighting force of imaginary (just for you Kyoto) Space Marines. With no wimmin'.



Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:they have left some entries as "Unknown".

Unknown.

Meaning, like, nothing is known about them...

Seeing the problem with this argument yet?


It would appear, in fact, that it is impossible to say that there are no female Space Marines... since there are all these chapters out there about which nothing is known...

I do fear some GW fans brains would melt should GW ever throw a curve ball and came out that one of the two missing chapters was the Emperors daughter.

I know its not going to happen, but where as I would laugh and say cool. I fear for the interwebs as the strain of thousands of frothing fanbois lunging to vent on their GW forums could collapse the network.

As to the figs themselves, love the way you captured the chapters in the figs, nice work.

Fetterkey wrote:

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Orlanth's suggestion of suggesting feminity via alterations to the hips and legs of the model would probably be the most "realistic" way of going about things.

Everyone suggests that, but no one notices when you do it. For my Black Widows, I widened the hips and narrowed the shoulders and even narrowed the waist, but no one ever noticed. It ends up just being a lot of wasted effort.

If you have to make female marines, that approach would actually be better. Subtle differences are always better than going over the top, which the Black Widows certainly are. Besides, bareheads aside, I don't think you would actually be able to tell...

On that note subtle always makes better sense if you have a male marine model to compare them to. On their own you might not notice so much. The armour isnt distionctly femme just cut slightly. Frankly you shouldnt notice except by comparison.

Its a bit like the transition from 16bit to 32bit graphics. 32bit graphics gives so many colours the human eye cannot register them all. 16bit is good enough with twice the efficiency. You tend not to notice the difference at all, until two images are side by side. Then you notice a lot.

you know what.... awesome models... Yak face said what I was gonna say...but then again I wouldnt have done much...Back on topic. I love them, and I think the more people who see these the more they might be interested and not blowing it off as being sexist...I spell that right?

it looks like the belt is squeezing her hips down.

if you really did sculpt these, pick up a book on proportions.

art has rules, you have to know them to break them and still look good. seeing as you rather enjoy these threads i'd say two things.

Comments have been removed by Moderator Kilkrazy as they were insulting.

Mmm... the hate is strong with this one

Congratulations wash-away, you are the first to go as far as to make me consider actually pressing the Ignore button.

wash-away wrote:art has rules, you have to know them to break them and still look good. seeing as you rather enjoy these threads i'd say two things.

Comments have been removed by Moderator Kilkrazy as they were insulting.

You had to go there, didn't you? I'm sorry, but calling the OP a *** is really over the bend. Consider your ass reported to the mods.

Ghidorah wrote:...and a pretty good painter, too.

Phiasco goes LOL

Doctor Thunder wrote:Everyone suggests that, but no one notices when you do it. For my Black Widows, I widened the hips and narrowed the shoulders and even narrowed the waist, but no one ever noticed. It ends up just being a lot of wasted effort.

wasted effort? with that statement i am pretty sure you just agreed with everyone who said this was a dumb idea.


maybe that's just me.

this thread makes me giggle.

Here is a nice female trooper kind of figure from Hasslefree.

http://www.hasslefreeminiatures.co.uk/pack.php?pack=1246

Take a look at the Infinity miniatures too, lots of very nice female figures there

http://www.nomadarachne.com/infinity_ENG/index.php?option=com_expose&Itemid=191

Doc, you've gotta be loving the amount of controversy you've sparked over these chicks.

I dislike the Raven Guard model, but I can't specifically say why. I think maybe her weapons choice? Still, if you paint her up nicely, it'll probably be fine.

Other than that, this is great! Fun idea, good execution. And have I mentioned I like the avatar, too? Anyway, I'd love to see that female regiment get some attention.

Keep up the good work!

phiasco wrote:

Doctor Thunder wrote:Everyone suggests that, but no one notices when you do it. For my Black Widows, I widened the hips and narrowed the shoulders and even narrowed the waist, but no one ever noticed. It ends up just being a lot of wasted effort.

wasted effort? with that statement i am pretty sure you just agreed with everyone who said this was a dumb idea.


maybe that's just me.

It's just you. No one noticing that you re-work the model to have more feminine proportions other than just "OMFG BOOBS!" is far from being the same as "These is dums cuz theirs no Spaze Marien wimmins!"

Agamemnon2 wrote:

wash-away wrote:art has rules, you have to know them to break them and still look good. seeing as you rather enjoy these threads i'd say two things.

Comments have been removed by Moderator Kilkrazy as they were insulting.

You had to go there, didn't you? I'm sorry, but calling the OP a *** is really over the bend. Consider your ass reported to the mods.

If he hadn't 'come on to me' in another thread, and if i didn't know this user in real life i would with hold my judgment.

however since i do know this user, i beleive it is called for.

DoctorThunder wrote:Mammory glands noted to be unusually large for frame (89th percentile for standard human female).

The subject’s brain’s pleasure center is approximately 38% larger then in found in standard human females

that is his fluff, he does a huge wall of fluff that reads like hentai. if this is the first time i wouldn't have said anything.

however if you accidently get shot (offended) by someone, and they rub your nose in it. even after you try to give constructive criticism they are a complete a** to you what are you suppose to do? I do not like the OP, he's perverted, and he has given me flak many times over model criticism.

i beleive i am perfectly in my rights defending myself, i am offended by his posts, by his models, and i get the f***ing warning. good work dakka.

wash-away wrote:

If he hadn't 'come on to me' in another thread.

Dude, I was being sarcastic. There's always room on Dakka for a little playful banter.

however since i do know this user, i beleive it is called for.

Are you sure? I looked at your photo on your Deviant Art page, and I don't recall meeting you. Maybe I'm just getting old.

he has given me flak many times over model criticism.

If you want to be taken seriously you need to learn how to give criticism in the right way. Perhaps you were trying to be helpful, I don't really know, but your posts have always come across to me as trolling, which I'm naturally not going to take seriously.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

wash-away wrote:

If he hadn't 'come on to me' in another thread.

Dude, I was being sarcastic. There's always room on Dakka for a little playful banter.

however since i do know this user, i beleive it is called for.

Are you sure? I looked at your photo on your Deviant Art page, and I don't recall meeting you. Maybe I'm just getting old.

he has given me flak many times over model criticism.

If you want to be taken seriously you need to learn how to give criticism in the right way. Perhaps you were trying to be helpful, I don't really know, but your posts have always come across to me as trolling, which I'm naturally not going to take seriously.

that was me without my glasses, when you got to mind games the pictures from the ardboyz with guy 'drinking' out of the trophy cup. i'm in the group pic with a blue button up shirt in the second row

my biggest advice was to credit the painter. i was told when one of the guys at mindgames saw your models said that you didn't paint them.

i'll be 19 in january, and with the internet i have an even harder time realizing sarcasim.

though i still do not agree with what you did with your widow marines, they contradict the fluff, or rather don't line up with it enough. female guard are an extreamly good conversion idea but my biggest gripe is continuing with gw's style. they look to much like an anime show like apple seed or other kind of military shows.

though i gave you the most flak because of what i heard, i was reassured by your black widows post.

i have a gripe with players at mind games. if your not in with the click, hell if you don't agree with them on every level on all levels of life they discredit you and you get flak every time you show up. edwin owes me bits so does guy, however i've cut my loses because the old friendly gamers down there stopped showing up and I'm not driving that far to get groud into the pavement.

don't take this as an apology, however i was assumptuos with this but its always been safer for me to assume something is bad untill proven otherwise. I'm not the most adapt at socialising and i do apologize for that.

No hard feelings, mate.

Just because we disagree about what should and should not be done in the hobby doesn't mean we can't hang out and enjoy the hobby together.

I totally understand where you are coming from, Wash. You have a very clear and distinct image of what 40K should be, and I respect that.

I show that respect by giving you the freedom to enjoy your toy soldiers in your own way. They are yours, and whatever conversions and painting you do with them I'll applaud so long as you are having fun. I will never walk in and tell you that you should conform to what I think you should be doing with your toy soldiers.

All I ask is that you show me the same courtesy.

the better something gets the more criticism we give to it for the flaws it has.

though i'd rather play against a painted army no matter the scheme or style then the gray horde that has consumed so man ya store.

wash-away wrote:though i'd rather play against a painted army no matter the scheme or style then the gray horde that has consumed so man ya store.

I totally agree with this point, it seems that so many people just don't bother to paint their stuff these days and its depressing.

I think they're very cool!
The lost Second Legion!
And so many bad ass chicks to name them after.
Emperors Erinyes
Fathers Furies
Mothers in Law
That Chicks Crazy

I am not a fan of the concept or the figures. Since females being SM is not cannon. (Yet, it seems some people are really pushing/hoping for it)

Now, if you wanted to make your own female chapter, I could get by that. (And you did.) But mixing in females with old chapters like that is just a no no.

Now, to the Models. They are show no resemblance to females. At all. Even the heads just look like mannish chicks. If the thread title wasn't what it is, I would have looked at them and went "Wow, those are some girly dudes." I am not telling you to sculpt boobs on them. But use more than 3 different heads and use heads that are not as mannish. Maybe find some head models that resemble females, then paint them/green stuff them to look like they are battle hardened. Dirt and grit and maybe a scar or two.

Right now, they just look bad. (That has nothing to do with me not liking the concept)

are we ever gonna see pics of the models themselves?

Edward089 wrote:are we ever gonna see pics of the models themselves?

Ummm.. first post in the thread????

-Porkuslime

I don't like to necro threads, but by the Emperor, I have a too powerful urge to jump in with my two cents on this one!

Back in the old Rogue Trader days, there WERE female space marines and female space marine models.

So reflect on that before dissing a fairly cool mod.

Doctor Thunder is my friggn hero fighting the power and shaking up the hobby with a bang! It makes me laugh how many people took offense to a female SM. I mean seriously it gets so boring only seeing the same male model after male model and random alien which is most likely male. Let the creative have their fun and the female gamers have more than just one army.

Keep on fighting that good fight Doctor Thunder!

BaronIveagh wrote:Back in the old Rogue Trader days, there WERE female space marines and female space marine models.

I'm gonna guess that you didn't actually play Rogue Trader. There were NO female Space Marines. There were female Imperial Guard, but no Marines. Sorry. There may have even been some female Adventurers or Pirates...

However, feel free to prove me wrong. Show me a picture of a female Space Marine from Rogue Trader. I've never seen one.



Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Back in the old Rogue Trader days, there WERE female space marines and female space marine models.

I'm gonna guess that you didn't actually play Rogue Trader. There were NO female Space Marines. There were female Imperial Guard, but no Marines. Sorry. There may have even been some female Adventurers or Pirates...

However, feel free to prove me wrong. Show me a picture of a female Space Marine from Rogue Trader. I've never seen one.



Ghidorah

Achem, allow me to apologize...


"All hands on Deck, this is Meridius! Some female 'adventurers' have slipped aboard and implanted themselves with the black carapace in order to wear several sets of Mark IV Maximus powered armor! They are armed and dangerous, having seized bolters and power swords from the armory! We believe they intend to escape from the Gamus Workshopus in space marine blisters, a few may even have Space Marine stamped on their slotta bases! Do not be fooled! Female Space Marines cannot exist! You can tell them from your Sargents by their hair and their non-Ultramarines chapter badges, which are displayed in accordance with the Codex Astartes! Be on Alert! That is all."





For some reason I keep thinking it walks like a Smurf and Quacks like a Smurf...

All hands on Deck, this is Meridius! Some female 'adventurers' have slipped aboard and implanted themselves with the black carapace in order to wear several sets of Mark IV Maximus powered armor!

Ghidorah said in his post they may have been "adventurers" (no idea what that means, didn't play in RT days) but not Marines. The paragraph you quoted refers to them as "adventurers" in the very second sentence and then goes on to say "Female Space Marines cannot exist!"

How is this arguing for female Space Marines again? Because it "looks" like one? I take it a Tau fire warrior could put on an Ultramarine helmet and it'd be a Space Marine, too? Not to mention the whole thing sounded like a joke release anyway and I doubt GW was ever serious about making female Marines canon.

How do you go about implanting yourself with the black carapace, anyway? Don't know much about Space Marine creation but can you even do that?

Sidstyler wrote:

All hands on Deck, this is Meridius! Some female 'adventurers' have slipped aboard and implanted themselves with the black carapace in order to wear several sets of Mark IV Maximus powered armor!

Ghidorah said in his post they may have been "adventurers" (no idea what that means, didn't play in RT days) but not Marines. The paragraph you quoted refers to them as "adventurers" in the very second sentence and then goes on to say "Female Space Marines cannot exist!"

How is this arguing for female Space Marines again? Because it "looks" like one? I take it a Tau fire warrior could put on an Ultramarine helmet and it'd be a Space Marine, too? Not to mention the whole thing sounded like a joke release anyway and I doubt GW was ever serious about making female Marines canon.

How do you go about implanting yourself with the black carapace, anyway? Don't know much about Space Marine creation but can you even do that?

My point was that you can't. We have here one of two minis that were part of the 'Adventurers' line for RT (along with Astropaths and quite a few other 40k models) that appear to depict female space marines in Mark 4 powered armor with chapter badges, carrying power swords and bolters (and very different from the BoS, who were depeicted somewhat similar to the way they are now in the game art). In fact, they're so space marine that they messed up and released quite a few of them as Space Marines (IE in space marine packs, etc).

The only way to control Space Marine powered armor is by being implanted with the Black Carapace, which is one of the implants space marines receive.

The point was that either the fluff about Space Marine armor is wrong, or these would have to be space marines. Since this is an unmodded sculpt released for RT.

Of course: this chapter may have been consumed by the Tyranids along with the squats they were released with...

@ Sidstyler

You tool, he was being sarcastic.......what he was trying to say for those without the "humour chip"...here is a minature from back in the day, whilst badly sculpted, yet true to GW "quality", is what appears to be a Female Space Marine, see the little boobies, and the slimmed down thighs.....he then suggests that the metal tab on the bottom even says Space Marine....

@ All

GW change their "Cannon" as and when they please. SO it may have been that GW did agree with female Space Marines, probably until they realised they don't have any sculptors on the team that can actually sculpt a female form.....then they dropped it.

@ Sidstyler

Try to find the sarcastic remark in my paragraph above

Remember, folks, according to the Canon, squats never existed either. After all, GW says so, and has been diligently removing all references to them from reprints! And anyone saying differently has been purged for your protection!


BTW: For Space Marine Chapters from one of the cursed foundings, turning into women would actually be one of the LESS bizarre things that happen to them...

The reason behind there not being anny female or should i say female looking marine is genetical and lay
in the difference of grothe hormons. As the female horome estrogen dosent promote muscle growth and makes it harder to
even grow muscles as it brakes down the testosterone

You need testosterone in your body to grow muscles and strenght. (yes women have that to but the average being approximately nine
times less than the male body, and males have estrogen but not in the same quantity) And what testosterone does in short is to help the body grow and enlarge many organs (not just your litle snake friend)
as well as to give you facial hair

And as marines are made when they are very young, even if you took a female to become a marine you hade to lower the
estrogen levels and increas the testosterone levels in their body which would make them look and sound as a man but
without the snake in ther pants. It would probably even lower the success rate in creating a marine as it would be
more complicated.

Cannon or not thats why there will never ever ever be any female looking marines out there, and that means no boobies on the "female" marines
as you need estrogen to have them to.

Its al simple human biologi.. nuff said..

/Biology lesson over

well i congratulate you on your modling skills

but arnt the female space marines well the sisters of battle?

Bubbalicious wrote:The reason behind there not being anny female or should i say female looking marine is genetical and lay
in the difference of grothe hormons. As the female horome estrogen dosent promote muscle growth and makes it harder to
even grow muscles as it brakes down the testosterone

You need testosterone in your body to grow muscles and strenght. (yes women have that to but the average being approximately nine
times less than the male body, and males have estrogen but not in the same quantity) And what testosterone does in short is to help the body grow and enlarge many organs (not just your litle snake friend)
as well as to give you facial hair

And as marines are made when they are very young, even if you took a female to become a marine you hade to lower the
estrogen levels and increas the testosterone levels in their body which would make them look and sound as a man but
without the snake in ther pants. It would probably even lower the success rate in creating a marine as it would be
more complicated.

Cannon or not thats why there will never ever ever be any female looking marines out there, and that means no boobies on the "female" marines
as you need estrogen to have them to.

Its al simple human biologi.. nuff said..

/Biology lesson over

I'll counter that with women (in general) being able to carry heavy loads further more easily due to their physiology, having a higher pain threshold, and most are able to develop similar levels of strength to men without the muscle mass. Further: a space marine's strength is augmented by their power armor.

Urban Guard wrote:well i congratulate you on your modling skills

but arnt the female space marines well the sisters of battle?

Thank Doc and the guys over at CMON. And no. Battle Sisters are not the same as space marines. They are unaugmented humans in power armor who function as a chamber militant to the Ecclesiarchy, as they are forbidden to have 'men under arms'. Space Marines are bio-enhanced supersoldiers who pretty much answer to no one but their own officers and the Emperor... and the Inquisition.... sometimes.

i ment the female equivilent

Eh.... the main reason is that generally the rules as written for SoB make them marginally inferior to Space Marines. Consider the idea that people might ask why is a man in a powered armor suit better then a woman in a powered armor suit (assuming they know nothing of the fluff). Further the reasons that GW gives for it not working don't hold up to scrutiny (ahh, the dangers of making a product for Nerds. Sometimes they know more about a given subject then the game designers.) and usually devolve into 'Because we say so!" (see Squats for a glaring example of this.)

Second to most men female figures are more attractive. It's hardwired into us, so the fact that someone might want to play with an army of female space marines because Space Marines kick ass. Thusly a male gamer gets to follow his natural impulse (look at hot girls, kick ass.)

Pure awesome sauce.

Some nice models here hopefully some slight changes to the head to modify them to the chapters more but the base looks good.

I LOVE the models for 2 reasons.

1. They are VERY Creative. There was a LOT of work and consideration put into converting each marine model with a female head. That consideration takes a great deal of research and prior knowledge to accomplish. Acquiring the female heads and affixing them to the models just adds that much more to the piece.

2. IT empowers women. A lot of the misogynistic comments made here are ridiculous and archaic. People, we live in the new millennium. We have a black president and had a strong female president in the running. More women are holding positions of power and even women in the military are being put in combat situations. So if we as a society can accept women in the ranks of men in the real world, why can't we do so in the fantasy world?

My theory is because it would interfere with some individual's macho escape from a world where the wife wears the pants in the family and their boss gets real cranky every 28 days.

As for women in the military, in the space marines, why not? Look at the real world again. Israel conscripts women as regular combat soldiers and beyond a doubt the Israeli army is one of the toughest ass-kickers on the planet! Women can be just as effective as soldiers as men.

I love the women of the Asters and want to see more, sculpted boobs or no. Why? Because while Warhammer is a predominantly male game there is still room to allow the other gender into our ranks.

Wow, all this and he's only posted TWO pictures...

Eh.... the main reason is that generally the rules as written for SoB make them marginally inferior to Space Marines. Consider the idea that people might ask why is a man in a powered armor suit better then a woman in a powered armor suit (assuming they know nothing of the fluff). Further the reasons that GW gives for it not working don't hold up to scrutiny (ahh, the dangers of making a product for Nerds. Sometimes they know more about a given subject then the game designers.) and usually devolve into 'Because we say so!" (see Squats for a glaring example of this.)

Second to most men female figures are more attractive. It's hardwired into us, so the fact that someone might want to play with an army of female space marines because Space Marines kick ass. Thusly a male gamer gets to follow his natural impulse (look at hot girls, kick ass.)


double triple doughnut what?

ladies this isn't the place to discus fluf legitemacy of the project. tkae it to the fluff forum

BaronIveagh wrote:Remember, folks, according to the Canon, squats never existed either. After all, GW says so, and has been diligently removing all references to them from reprints!

Not actually true.

There's still a Squat character in the Inquisition War trilogy. I'm not sure what other 'reprints' you would be referring to, since there's nothing else still in print that would have included a mention of Squats in the first place. They're certainly not about to reprint the 2nd edition rulebooks...

Nor has GW ever really denied the existence of Squats. There were a few 'There are no Squats' comments made at Games Days as a response to the tired old 'When are Squats coming back?' questions from the peanut gallery, but officially GW have never tried to claim that they don't exist, and have had no problem showing Squat armies or models from GTs and Golden Demons...

Bubbalicious wrote:The reason behind there not being anny female or should i say female looking marine is genetical and lay
in the difference of grothe hormons. As the female horome estrogen dosent promote muscle growth and makes it harder to
even grow muscles as it brakes down the testosterone

You need testosterone in your body to grow muscles and strenght. (yes women have that to but the average being approximately nine
times less than the male body, and males have estrogen but not in the same quantity) And what testosterone does in short is to help the body grow and enlarge many organs (not just your litle snake friend)
as well as to give you facial hair

And as marines are made when they are very young, even if you took a female to become a marine you hade to lower the
estrogen levels and increas the testosterone levels in their body which would make them look and sound as a man but
without the snake in ther pants. It would probably even lower the success rate in creating a marine as it would be
more complicated.

Cannon or not thats why there will never ever ever be any female looking marines out there, and that means no boobies on the "female" marines
as you need estrogen to have them to.

Its al simple human biologi.. nuff said..

/Biology lesson over

Ha ha.....well, thanks for the biology lesson. It makes a very compelling argument. However, theres one small problem......you're basing your argument on "real world" science in a fantasy setting.

You do realise that the whole "genetics" behind the Space Marines is impossible, maybe not in a million years from now, but certainly in the realm where your real world science is currently at play.......my long winded point? If GW wanted to create a Female Space Marine....they could.

The real issue here is not the science of it, its more to do with GWs obvious fear of women. I imagine their head-office to be a place of sweating armpits on the one side and slightly sexually confused males on the other. Why GW avoids the female element in anything but its crudiest form is anyone guess.

I do think that the Doc Thunder projects are fun, but I would say put your imagination and creativity into something that deserves it, WH40K has alot of cracks that its creator is either not capable or interested in closing, its a questionable pastime trying to close those cracks yourself.....True-scale Marines anyone?

Delephont wrote:True-scale Marines anyone?

Why do I vaguely recall that project someplace?

40k and real life science don't really mix. The only thing I've seen that comes near to it are Philip Sibbering's concepts and some stuff from the Anargo Sector Project.

Space Marines (even male ones) are impossible. Fully enclosed ribcages? Good luck breathing pall!

Malika2 wrote:40k and real life science don't really mix. The only thing I've seen that comes near to it are Philip Sibbering's concepts and some stuff from the Anargo Sector Project.

Space Marines (even male ones) are impossible. Fully enclosed ribcages? Good luck breathing pall!

I dunno... they might fit together like lorca segmenta. They could breathe but it would be fully enclosed because the plates overlap.

Delephont wrote:
Ha ha.....well, thanks for the biology lesson. It makes a very compelling argument. However, theres one small problem......you're basing your argument on "real world" science in a fantasy setting.

You do realise that the whole "genetics" behind the Space Marines is impossible, maybe not in a million years from now, but certainly in the realm where your real world science is currently at play.......my long winded point? If GW wanted to create a Female Space Marine....they could.

The real issue here is not the science of it, its more to do with GWs obvious fear of women. I imagine their head-office to be a place of sweating armpits on the one side and slightly sexually confused males on the other. Why GW avoids the female element in anything but its crudiest form is anyone guess.

I do think that the Doc Thunder projects are fun, but I would say put your imagination and creativity into something that deserves it, WH40K has alot of cracks that its creator is either not capable or interested in closing, its a questionable pastime trying to close those cracks yourself.....True-scale Marines anyone?

Well we cant have one of these threads whitout some fakts and real serious arguments, it just wouldn't feel right...

But its a good argument for not modeling them any different other than changing the heads.
And i do like the models, they look nice. What i would like to se is one of them painted upp to get a clearer picture of what they will look like.

Sorry to say this but putting female heads on male space marines is silly.

On top of it they all have the same face.

If you can fix the armour to reflect that they are women then great. If you put a womens head on a male body then it looks rather silly.

I do however believe there are female space marines and they are called Sisters of Battle. They are seperated from the Males for a reason.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:Sorry to say this but putting female heads on male space marines is silly.

On top of it they all have the same face.

If you can fix the armour to reflect that they are women then great. If you put a womens head on a male body then it looks rather silly.

I do however believe there are female space marines and they are called Sisters of Battle. They are seperated from the Males for a reason.

Um... how many people are going to insist that SoB are Space Marines when they are very clearly not? It seems like this thread moves in circles, Someone claims that GW never made Female Space Marines, then it gets disproven. A few posts later someone will say that SoB are female Space marines, and that gets disproven, and then a few posts later someone will insist that GW has never made Female Space Marines...

Does no one ever read the previous page???

On the plus side I agree that the armor should have been modded a bit, but on the whole it's not a bad concept.

For those who love fluff I found this after a quick search.

http://www.geocities.com/Dasleahnomicron/FluffPages/iafemalespacemarines.html

neiltj1 wrote:For those who love fluff I found this after a quick search.

http://www.geocities.com/Dasleahnomicron/FluffPages/iafemalespacemarines.html

ROFL! That's great! It ain't cannon... but... It's damn good... LOL

SoB is the closest you are going to get to a Space Marine.

Female - Check
Power Armour - Check
Same Stats but Strenght - Check (they are women that are weaker then men)

So they are basically Space Marines.

No Terminators (Iconic Space Marine gear)

No LandRaiders (Iconic Space Marine Vehicle)

Same Stats NOT Check. Read back of 5e rulebook. SoB do not have the same stats.

WS STR and T are lower. (Ironically, women are by and large tougher then men, by virtue of higher endurance and pain threshold, so claiming it's because they're girls doesn't hold water.)

get over it i agree with yacface

Dr. T, I love your threads. so much debate, over such a little matter

Im just about finished converting up my own female marine in your honor, to join my chosen squad (with your permission, I'll be using the black widows colors).

by the way... how are those jetbikes coming?

BaronIveagh wrote:Someone claims that GW never made Female Space Marines, then it gets disproven.

Don't get too smug. "Disproven" is a stretch at best. Granted, you did show a pic of a GW female model in power armor. I must concede that point (I totally forgot about that mini, too). However, that mini is not a "Space Marine", let alone, a female Space Marine. That model is a novelty casting much like the Space Santa, Space Skeleton, and the infamous Marine on the toilet. Hence the silly text that accompanied the release of that mini. They specifically said that she was NOT a Space Marine and that they (female SM) cannot exist.

So, yeah, you found a female model in power armor from GW. Fair enough. But it isn't a "female Space Marine" and it doesn't exactly disprove.

There are no literal female Space Marines. Or ghosts. Or good My Chemical Romance songs. Or yummy tofu dishes for that matter.




Ghidorah

Man, I was hoping to actually see a pretty kick ass diaorama progression with 6 pages in the thread.

But its just six pages of ranting from fluff nazis.

Good times Dakka, good times.

Yea, this looks pretty cool. I wanna see the pics when the done.

This is a pretty awesome project.

Ghidorah wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Someone claims that GW never made Female Space Marines, then it gets disproven.

Don't get too smug. "Disproven" is a stretch at best. Granted, you did show a pic of a GW female model in power armor. I must concede that point (I totally forgot about that mini, too). However, that mini is not a "Space Marine", let alone, a female Space Marine. That model is a novelty casting much like the Space Santa, Space Skeleton, and the infamous Marine on the toilet. Hence the silly text that accompanied the release of that mini. They specifically said that she was NOT a Space Marine and that they (female SM) cannot exist.

So, yeah, you found a female model in power armor from GW. Fair enough. But it isn't a "female Space Marine" and it doesn't exactly disprove.

There are no literal female Space Marines. Or ghosts. Or good My Chemical Romance songs. Or yummy tofu dishes for that matter.

Quoted for truth.
This "Women of the Adeptus Astartes Diorama" is funny, but no more fluffy than Chaos Necrons would be.

Ghidorah wrote:
Sorry. Don't like 'em.


Ghidorah

Shocking...

... What's that supposed to mean? Are you insinuating that I dislike SOOO many things that it has become the norm?

*sheesh*

Everyone's a Godzilla fan.



Ghidorah
who needs a 300' tall hug.

Ghidorah wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Someone claims that GW never made Female Space Marines, then it gets disproven.

Don't get too smug. "Disproven" is a stretch at best. Granted, you did show a pic of a GW female model in power armor. I must concede that point (I totally forgot about that mini, too). However, that mini is not a "Space Marine", let alone, a female Space Marine. That model is a novelty casting much like the Space Santa, Space Skeleton, and the infamous Marine on the toilet. Hence the silly text that accompanied the release of that mini. They specifically said that she was NOT a Space Marine and that they (female SM) cannot exist.

So, yeah, you found a female model in power armor from GW. Fair enough. But it isn't a "female Space Marine" and it doesn't exactly disprove.

There are no literal female Space Marines. Or ghosts. Or good My Chemical Romance songs. Or yummy tofu dishes for that matter.




Ghidorah

First it's 'There never was one single one!" Now, we've determined that yes there was. In fact, there was more then one.




Now this (as far as I know) never went further. (Thank god, the sculpts were horrible back then) but... I'm given to understand that quite a few of the 'Adventurers" line were sculpts that had been done with an eye toward other projects and when they did not go through were reused. So I'd say that at some point early on, they probably did look into making a full on female space marine line, but for some reason decided not to. Looking at the sculpts, I think I can hazard a guess why...


One thing that I have been mulling over: Can someone tell me where in the fluff, as opposed to chaos necrons, it says that Female Space Marines are impossible? I've been trying to find it and so far have drawn a big blank.

"Can someone tell me where in the fluff, as opposed to chaos necrons, it says that Female Space Marines are impossible? I've been trying to find it and so far have drawn a big blank. "

That's because there really isn't any fluff that says female marines are possible.

Its an infinite universe, go for it!

BaronIveagh wrote:
One thing that I have been mulling over: Can someone tell me where in the fluff, as opposed to chaos necrons, it says that Female Space Marines are impossible? I've been trying to find it and so far have drawn a big blank.

Right here:

Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes a neophyte. After the organ implantation process he becomes an initiate.

Taken from http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#Requirements but it was orginally on the GW website and in Index Astartes volume 1.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Space Marines are bio-enhanced supersoldiers who pretty much answer to no one but their own officers and the Emperor... and the Inquisition.... sometimes.

More than sometimes. The inqusition hosts their own chapter of the space marines that serve and fight for the Inqusition itself.

You could always use the excuse of "the warp/chaos did it".

BaronIveagh wrote:First it's 'There never was one single one!" Now, we've determined that yes there was. In fact, there was more then one.

Again with the smarmy, smug tone. Feel pretty full of yourself because you found two pictures of novelty miniatures? Feeling a bit "I told you so, nyahh- nyahh" now? GG.

Grimtuff wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
One thing that I have been mulling over: Can someone tell me where in the fluff, as opposed to chaos necrons, it says that Female Space Marines are impossible? I've been trying to find it and so far have drawn a big blank.

Right here:

Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types.Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes a neophyte. After the organ implantation process he becomes an initiate.

Taken from http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Creation_of_a_Space_Marine#Requirements but it was orginally on the GW website and in Index Astartes volume 1.

And there you go. Grimtuff says it all. End of story, as far as I am concerned.


So, I am going to walk away from your smugnessocityism and the rest of this derailed conversation before I get reported for saying not-so-nice stuff... again...




Ghidorah
who hates taking the high road, although the view is usually nicer...

GEEK FIGHT!!!! PLACE YOUR BETS LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!!


Sorry...I just had to say that!

Lexarcanum, the Wikipedia of 40k, is not what anyone should consider a reliable source since members can edit it.

The article in Lexarcanum was altered from what it says in Index Astartes, which at NO POINT says that a subject must be male (you hae to be tough, mutation free, and oh, survive the process), to include that the subject must be male by a user called acidface sometime in the last year if you look up the alteration history. GW also says NOTHING about being male as a requirement.


Sorry, guys, someone has punked you with fanon.

This on of the reasons that books > the internets...

Oh, God. Let me find the quote.

Here it is:

THey must be male because zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types, hence the need for tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening.

Index Astartes Vol. I: Rites of Initiation.

So as you can see, no female marines exist in canon. Any female marine model is in fact a novelty model, and female marine armies are novelty armies. Yes they may be excellently converted and painted, like Dr. Thunder, but so are some of the other themed armies out there.

Is it just me or did this thread turn into another one of those "There are no female Astartes"-threads... I'm asking because I wonder where the diorama went


OP: Nice looking conversions, I also stand by the "no female marines"-argument, but as you said, you did this for fun. I will in no way take part in the useless and evidently endless discussion of Females as astartes.

Loking forward to seeing the actual diorama

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:So as you can see, no female marines exist in canon.

Not at all. All that quote proves is that no female marines can be created using the normal process.

It falls a long way short of saying that female marines can never, ever exist.

Ah, I've found where it says that, under the picture of the guy with what looks like a cross between a plasmagun and a flamer. It's not up in the beginning where they discuss the biological requirements, but back under the section on recruitment. No page numbers were sited so it took a while to find that statement.

Ok: I cede the point, it does say that. It also says all 20 primarchs were found, with each one leading their respective legions and a few paragraphs before the male thing that if you cannot be hypnotized, you cannot be a space marine. Wouldn't that mean that anyone with the willpower or sense of self to be a good space marine would be unable to become a space marine???

I could tear the whole thing apart, since none of the organs would be effected by differing levels of testosterone or estrogen. Also, last I heard, genetic material is not generated as a function of memory, but rather by eons of evolution in an enviroment, nor would anything be able to sequence DNA to extract useful information in an environment such as the stomach. The sheer volume of environmental contamination would make this feat near impossible. Any information the Marines was able to derive from this would be useless as they would have to alter their own DNA, which would be mutation and therefor bad.

Oh, and your skin darkens in response to ultraviolet radiation on it's own. From what I can tell this organ exists solely so that all marines in a particular chapter have the same skin tone.

And before anyone says Biscopea: this organ would work by releasing Myostatin inhibitors, as that particular hormone is what limits muscle growth in humans. Chemically it would have very little to do with testosterone.


And yes, this discussion is starting to devolve into the sort of thing that goes on over at the Marvel or DC message boards, particularly RE Infinite Crisis or House of M.


On day I will amuse myself by buying GW and issuing a line of Female Space Marines and Commisars on Jetbikes. I will then sit back and watch the fireworks of people's heads exploding.

insaniak wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:So as you can see, no female marines exist in canon.

Not at all. All that quote proves is that no female marines can be created using the normal process.

It falls a long way short of saying that female marines can never, ever exist.

Nope, it means that they wont be Astartes (Space Marines) if they don't use that process. Big beefy women with the same skills? Whatever, its your money. Space Marines? No.

BaronIveagh wrote:Ah, I've found where it says that, under the picture of the guy with what looks like a cross between a plasmagun and a flamer. It's not up in the beginning where they discuss the biological requirements, but back under the section on recruitment. No page numbers were sited so it took a while to find that statement.

Ok: I cede the point, it does say that. It also says all 20 primarchs were found, with each one leading their respective legions and a few paragraphs before the male thing that if you cannot be hypnotized, you cannot be a space marine. Wouldn't that mean that anyone with the willpower or sense of self to be a good space marine would be unable to become a space marine???

I could tear the whole thing apart, since none of the organs would be effected by differing levels of testosterone or estrogen. Also, last I heard, genetic material is not generated as a function of memory, but rather by eons of evolution in an enviroment, nor would anything be able to sequence DNA to extract useful information in an environment such as the stomach. The sheer volume of environmental contamination would make this feat near impossible. Any information the Marines was able to derive from this would be useless as they would have to alter their own DNA, which would be mutation and therefor bad.

Oh, and your skin darkens in response to ultraviolet radiation on it's own. From what I can tell this organ exists solely so that all marines in a particular chapter have the same skin tone.

And before anyone says Biscopea: this organ would work by releasing Myostatin inhibitors, as that particular hormone is what limits muscle growth in humans. Chemically it would have very little to do with testosterone.


And yes, this discussion is starting to devolve into the sort of thing that goes on over at the Marvel or DC message boards, particularly RE Infinite Crisis or House of M.


On day I will amuse myself by buying GW and issuing a line of Female Space Marines and Commisars on Jetbikes. I will then sit back and watch the fireworks of people's heads exploding.

You can rip apart anything GW if you want. That isn't a challenge. Saying you can point out GW's fluff and logical inconstancies is like saying you can win a race against a shackled opponent. With a head start.

What if that opponent was Chuck Norris?

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:

Nope, it means that they wont be Astartes (Space Marines) if they don't use that process. Big beefy women with the same skills? Whatever, its your money. Space Marines? No.

You can rip apart anything GW if you want. That isn't a challenge. Saying you can point out GW's fluff and logical inconstancies is like saying you can win a race against a shackled opponent. With a head start.

Walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. I think GW deliberately makes inconsistencies to watch the fans duke it out over trivial gak.

Of course, this argument is just a warm up, I'm waiting for one of two things to happen. SWTOR comes out and people start making Light Side Sith, which will lead to fanboy spontaneous combustion, or Joe Queseda leaves Marvel and everything done while he was there gets retconned by his replacement to appease fans, leading to fanmageddon as Pre-House of M fans do battle with Post House of M fans.

Let Mortal Kombat begin!

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, only in this case, it can't be a duck on a biological level. According to canon.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Nope, it means that they wont be Astartes (Space Marines) if they don't use that process.

So... if I make a plate out of baked clay, and then make another plate out of cast aluminium... which one is really a plate, and which one is something else?

Hmm, in the risk of turning it into an ethical debate...this could probably best be compared to the transsexual discussion. A man who underwent a sex-change in order to become a woman. Is that person a woman, or a man? Or maybe both? The looks, voice, character, etc etc are all of a woman, the gender (social construct) of this person is a woman. The sex (biological part) however isn't fully like that of a woman because the person lacks a womb and several of the other female reproductive organs.

With the female Space Marines the same could be said, it has the functions and the skills of the Space Marine, but she does not have the same biology as a Space Marine, thus...

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, only in this case, it can't be a duck on a biological level. According to canon.

I am not getting into the debate on Female Space Marines, I only want to point out that the term Canon is only to be used when misspelling Cannon with regards to GW, because they do not support the idea that one should maintain Canon/Continuity/etc.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
According to canon.

Except that GW says there is no such thing as canon, so that flushes itself.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
So as you can see, no female marines exist

Ummm, male marines don't exist either. It's pretend

I love the way they all look especially the black temparet. i give them two thumbs up. you should do one in chaos. like have one for Iron warriors, Night lords, World eaters, Thousand sons........ETC now that would be cool.

Spiffy Paint! Now I like em while before I was just "Meh..."

Holy Ghostriders! I love the tech marine!

I love the work, great job! I just noticed one discrepency. The black templars symbol is always black, I know there's creative licence when painting models and all that stuff, but if you're looking for something that accurately depicts the chapter, the symbol should be black.

Other than that, keep up the good work!

THIS THREAD GOT HIJACKED.

It is a pity too. I think the fluff is mainly to keep people in the "imperium" frame of mind.

LONG LIVE THE BOOBS

Kreedos wrote:I love the work, great job! I just noticed one discrepency. The black templars symbol is always black, I know there's creative licence when painting models and all that stuff, but if you're looking for something that accurately depicts the chapter, the symbol should be black.

Other than that, keep up the good work!

actually she could be a assult marine or sword brethran. there symbol is red. but if she were a normal Black Templar then it would be black. so you are wrong kreedos.

Actually she could be a assult marine or sword brethran. there symbol is red. but if she were a normal Black Templar then it would be black. so you are wrong kreedos.

Even in this case isn't the symbol black with a red outline and not just red? She would have to be wearing a jump pack as well to be an assault marine right? Seeing as all of the other chapter women are force commanders and such, I figured this one wouldn't be any different. This doesn't mean I'm wrong in any respect it just means it's open to interpretation, most of the Black Templar wear a black symbol with white shoulder pads.

nice work dont see what all the hate was about tho nicely painted and modled, 8/10 keep up the good work

jamessearle0 wrote:nice work dont see what all the hate was about tho nicely painted and modled, 8/10 keep up the good work

Gracias

those are properly awsome

Fantastic work, and kudos for not letting small minds bring you down. I'm always happy to see people have fun with their projects, rather than letting someone they've never met dictate what is and isn't acceptable. The heads work really well, and the vast gap between the legs always worked better for the female physiology than the male.

I'm now going to add a female marine or two to my chapter. Just for spite.

i dont see what all the whining was about at the end of the day they'r great models. nice work!

The issues are the following if you forgot. Small minds. LOL.

One small mind would be that there are no female space marines. Yep I guess fluff has nothing to do with anything.

Heads are all the same. No difference in them what so ever. Didn't even try to take green stuff and make different hair styles.

Armour was not changed to reflect that they are women. Major problem if you ask me and you did.

They are not even painted yet. So what is the nice work? Any monkey can glue heads to a space marine body. The only difference is that this guy got to say "done!".

So you are saying awesome because he took female heads and put them on male bodies. Well break out the bubbly because somebody can glue.

I really don't care that someone wanted to make female space marines. I do care that someone just glued heads to a model and said look at me I'm an artest. Of course some of you jump on the wagon and say, "man that is rad!". Well I'm not buying it.

So here is what this guy can do. Fix his models so that they reflect a woman. (a different women for each of them) I freaking eye patch on one at least. Then he can paint and base them. Post the FINISHED project on here.

Then and only then should ANYONE say AWESOME if they are truely AWESOME.

People don't like it when they're cherished notions of reality are challenged. Doubly so in nerd heavy environments where they define their identity a lot based on their knowledge of a particular field. The idea that, in the case of fictional worlds, something might be retconned or altered distresses them to no end.



Incidentally the painted versions are shown a few posts back to show that they're finished and look pretty good, actually.

Looked at the painted pics and stand by my post.

Head look the same. No difference in them.

When did the humans allow pointed ears into the ranks?

So now you want me to believe that we have elf woman in the space marine ranks!

It is a crying shame that all that work in PAINTING was wasted. Woman have boobs or thats what the woman I have dated have. My wife has nice boobs and I can tell you she would not fit into that top portion of the armour.

So read my post above. Try again. This one did not go well. Make them ALL have different faces. Make them look like woman and not a man. Man body + woman head does not equal awesome. It equals transgender.

I don't know what you're whining about.
It's actually not a bad idea.
Why is it that women are'nt allowed in the Astartes?

Dr Thunder, you have a done a pretty good job at going down adventerous avenues. Keep it up!

great work. I was wondering why you decided to paint them all dffrent chapters. Is it the SM ass kicking beauty pageant.

Q. What has been the most significant accomplishment in your life? Why?

A. When i riped that slimmy orks head off.

Q. At what point does a girl become a woman?

A. AT the point when she first gets her perfectly manicured hands on a stormbolter.

Q. Do you consider yourself to be a giver or a taker? Why?

A. Both. i give them pain and take their lives.

I vote the Tech marine Kick Ass beauty of 2009 or equivelent 40k star date(or whatever)

And they above post proves that you like woman that look like men.

lol Quite posible nothing wrong with a tom boy.

But you never know. what is considerd beauty changes with the changes in culture. so by 40k that could be what is beautifull.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:Looked at the painted pics and stand by my post.

Head look the same. No difference in them.

When did the humans allow pointed ears into the ranks?

So now you want me to believe that we have elf woman in the space marine ranks!

It is a crying shame that all that work in PAINTING was wasted. Woman have boobs or thats what the woman I have dated have. My wife has nice boobs and I can tell you she would not fit into that top portion of the armour.

So read my post above. Try again. This one did not go well. Make them ALL have different faces. Make them look like woman and not a man. Man body + woman head does not equal awesome. It equals transgender.

Jesus H. FREAKING CHRIST you have to be joking man. You... Buddy you are a douche so touche yourself into the fantasy realms PLEASE.

For your next project can you make something even more crazy and mind-bendingly inventive to piss these guys off more...seriously though. I doubt it will be hard... I've got it Momma Ork!!! Ooooh yeah right to the heart of it eh? "But they are fungus and BLaBLaBlAlABLAJjkjAoofkjkjii". If it is just over your head call it a very confused Ork, in fact I would consider this type of "crossdressing" among Orks to be common to as they say "Trick Da Oomans!"

If you want to really twist some stomachs make a squad of "crossdressing" Ork boyz and call them... you geussed it... DA GIRLZ.

I say that whatever the eight foot tall woman with the thunder hammer says is beautiful is beautiful.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:
I really don't care that someone wanted to make female space marines. I do care that someone just glued heads to a model and said look at me I'm an artest. Of course some of you jump on the wagon and say, "man that is rad!". Well I'm not buying it.

So here is what this guy can do. Fix his models so that they reflect a woman. (a different women for each of them) I freaking eye patch on one at least. Then he can paint and base them. Post the FINISHED project on here.

Then and only then should ANYONE say AWESOME if they are truely AWESOME.

Have you complained to GW that every wood elf head looks exactly the same, and that you are confused by the lack of variety? I see helmets, half helmets, a pony tail. No eye patch though. Kudos for nailing the fatal flaw in Thunder's project. You have an amazing eye for detail.






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AWESOME.

Doc Thunder,

I've always been a huge admirer of your work. Feminine Space Marines? They said it couldn't be done. But you have done it with style, and shown everyone what a little creativity and talent can do. Scratch that, a little creativity and a LOT of talent!

Kudos,
Solorg

This thread's hijack, in a nutshell: "My toy soldiers are more correct than your toy soldiers."

Doc. T, very nice, clean paintjob.

Ello ello chaps and chapettes. Trygon here. Long time browser, first time poster. Anyways, from information gathered from Bolter and Chainsword I can safely say that Doctor Thunder likely did not paint these marines. Not one. During my time on Bolter and Chainsword I have run into a few of his commissioned artists and sculptors. Some of them confirmed for me that most of his armies were painted by commissioned painters. The Doc was also caught out with his Black Widows on Warseer when one of the posters said he knew the commissioned painter that painted the army. So whilst MauleedlovesYakeface's comments were not that well put, he is technically right. The Doc likely did just glue female heads on male bodies and then just sent them off for a paintjob.

Anyways, just letting you folks know. I for one do not care about what gender a marine is, but what I do care about is giving credit where it is due.

terribletrygon wrote:Ello ello chaps and chapettes. Trygon here. Long time browser, first time poster. Anyways, from information gathered from Bolter and Chainsword I can safely say that Doctor Thunder likely did not paint these marines. Not one. During my time on Bolter and Chainsword I have run into a few of his commissioned artists and sculptors. Some of them confirmed for me that most of his armies were painted by commissioned painters. The Doc was also caught out with his Black Widows on Warseer when one of the posters said he knew the commissioned painter that painted the army. So whilst MauleedlovesYakeface's comments were not that well put, he is technically right. The Doc likely did just glue female heads on male bodies and then just sent them off for a paintjob.

Anyways, just letting you folks know. I for one do not care about what gender a marine is, but what I do care about is giving credit where it is due.

The reason I'm not answering you is because you are trolling my threads and I believe the best policy is to ignore and report trolls rather than to feed them. Please do not assume that my ignoring you is an answer to your questions.

That is quite a claim Terribletrygon, nonetheless whoever did paint these he did quite a good job imo. As a designer I would be "happy" ( ) to get paid if I knowingly would not get credit for my work. Lots of professions do this, usually called "Ghost" writing/painting/sculpting. It is more common than you would think, and while I don't entirely agree with it, bills need to be paid and a name can be made on others accomplishments with no harm or foul to most.

I actually thought the heads were tastefully done when painted. Lacking a bit of detail but well positioned and chosen for each model. I can't say I see two people doing this project.

With that said... Actually I need to clarify that I am not accusing anyone of anything, it is really none of my business. I will stay out of this argument from this point on because I am not a part of the professional painting community.

i really would like to point out how "mauleedlovesyakeface" is completely wrong but its SO much more satisfiying simply to say thats he's being an ass

Let's not forget that everybody is wrong on the internet

insaniak wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:Nope, it means that they wont be Astartes (Space Marines) if they don't use that process.

So... if I make a plate out of baked clay, and then make another plate out of cast aluminium... which one is really a plate, and which one is something else?

Are you seriously saying the difference between men and women is the same as the difference between clay and aluminum?

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
According to canon.

Except that GW says there is no such thing as canon, so that flushes itself.

No, there is such a thing as canon. It is, on this issue, clear and defined. If we were discussing the dates of the Damocles Gulf Crusade or the Exorcist founding status, then maybe, but not this one.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
So as you can see, no female marines exist

Ummm, male marines don't exist either. It's pretend

Wow, ok, so your going to cop out of the discussion with that then? How dare you. Don't talk down to us just because we enjoy talking about this fictional made up universe. Its too bad your such a damn good modeler and painter.

Mastiff wrote:





Have you complained to GW that every wood elf head looks exactly the same, and that you are confused by the lack of variety? I see helmets, half helmets, a pony tail. No eye patch though. Kudos for nailing the fatal flaw in Thunder's project. You have an amazing eye for detail.






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AWESOME.

OMG! Yes!...Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!!!!
I must agree. That IS awsome.
Just one little thing, the slamander chick looks kind of fat.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
No, there is such a thing as canon.

Not according to Games Workshop, as I'll quote in a moment.


40K is very different then almost any other sci-fi you are likely to encounter. And I don’t mean that it’s gothic and vast. I mean that it is written without the 3rd person objective voice ever being used.
In most sci-fi, we are accustomed to the “voice” of the narration being omniscient, knowing exactly what has happened and what is happening. Even if the characters involved in the story may never know the whole truth, the narrator does, and so, generally, the reader does as well. Publishers hate the idea that the readers may get confused and frustrated with loose ends, and normally demand full and correct disclosure to the readers at some point. Even though there may have been half-truths and misunderstandings along the way, by the end of the series, the readers are given a full and truthful picture of the world they have been reading about.
40K, however, never does this.



Here to explain it better then I can, we have a very important quote from Marc Gascoigne - Publisher, The Black Library and Black Flame

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumor that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumors, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note the answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it.

Notice that even when he is talking about things that some players consider fairly indisputable, like the Black Templars lacking the belchers gland, his response is still "’sometimes’ or ‘it varies’ or ‘depends.’"

And another from the design team in White Dwarf 302:

The back story presents questions, enigmas, problems, and conflicts. Gamers explore and solve these issues by playing games and developing armies. In short, the background provides the beginning, but the players provide the end.
What is Cypher up to? Well, he's up to whatever you need him to be up to for your games and campaigns. What does the cult mechanicus have to do with the dragon? Whatever you want that relationship to be.
The background should be like Schrodinger's Cat-Nothing is defined until the players look into the box by playing games and determining the outcome for themselves. Backgrounds should be full of possibilities to be exploited and expanded by players, not answers that limit the potential of the game and its setting.

So, what do we learn from these very important quotes?

1) That the idea of "canon" is incompatible with the way 40K is written. There is no such thing as canon in 40K. No matter how much we may wish it were to be so, there is no full and truthful picture, only scraps of information of questionable validity. Everything we read about in 40K books is either "exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumor that may or may not have any truth behind it."

2) That the idea of a "shared universe" is a fan construct only. 40K is a multiverse, where each player is intended to and asked to create their own version. In one player’s universe, Cypher is working to kill The Emperor, in another player’s universe, he is working to restore The Emperor. Again, we may want the 40K universe to be a consistent and defined singular place like other sci-fi brands, but no matter how much we may wish it to be, it is not.

3) That GW does not intend their universe to be anything more then a setting, and any attempt or desire to place borders and limitations on something that is not designed to have borders and limitations goes against the express intent of the background.

I think we all love the 40K background, but I think that love leads some players to wish it was more concrete then it really is, or more consistent then it really is. Our love of 40K background must never lead us to change it into it is something it is not.

Sure, it may not be as exciting to talk about rumors as it is to talk about actual events. It may not be as emotionally satisfying to tell someone that they are allowed to interpret something as they see fit instead of telling them that they are just plain wrong, but when we treat 40K as a closed and defined universe we are perverting what it is into something that it is not.

So there's a paradox...

The only canon is that there is no canon.

Thank you, games workshop! I eagerly await your next game where we'll play all powerful genies trying to create rocks so big even an all powerful genie cannot move them, before trying to solve the archers paradox.

Really cool, great work.

Nice work D.

But, that comes from the BL guy, who doesn't work for the studio. The Dark Angels Primarch is Lion El' Jonson, their are no loyalist traitor marines still around, and their are no female space marines. These are unchangeable facts of 40K.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:But, that comes from the BL guy, who doesn't work for the studio.

Actually he does, but nice try. Plus, you can't ignore the fact that the other quote is from the Design Team in a White Dwarf article. There is nothing more official then that and you know it.

The Dark Angels Primarch is Lion El' Jonson, their are no loyalist traitor marines still around, and their are no female space marines. These are unchangeable facts of 40K.

I think your heart is in the right place, which is why I'm going to help you out. If you want to make a legitimate argument, you're going to need to bring some evidence to support your claims. As it stands right now, I have presented quotes from GW staff and published White Dwarf articles. This begs the obvious question, "If some anonymous guy online says there are unchangeable facts, while Games Workshop says there are only rumors, legends, and half-truths, why would anyone listen to the amonymous online guy?"

I can tell you enjoy being knowledgeable about the background and adhering to it canonically. There is nothing wrong with that desire. The problem is that you have chosen a game that fundamentally doesn't support it. Rather than face this fact, you try and treat the background as if it was written canonically anyway. You are welcome to do this, incidentally, as GW encourages each player to create their own corner in the 40K multiverse. The problem is that you are treating your own corner as if it were the only corner, and scorning anyone who does not fall in line with your approach.

Remember the quote from the Design Team Published in White Dwarf. What is Cypher up to? Whatever we need him to be up to. So, in my multiverse, Cypher is working to kill the Emperor. Perhaps in your multiverse, he is trying to restore The Emperor. So long as we both respect each other's freedom to work within our own multiverse, that is fine, but if I start telling you that you are wrong and only my multiverse is correct, then I have crossed the line.

If it helps you swallow it, try to look at it this way. In your multiverse, female space marines are an impossibility. In my multiverse, they exist and are central characters. We are each doing what GW has asked up to do, which is create our own 40K multiverse. So long as we don't start telling each other that only our multiverse is correct, we are both enjoying the hobby as intended.

So, to summarize:
You like canonical fluff - that's good.
You picked a game without canonical fluff - that's bad.
You treat the fluff as if it were canonical anyway - that's good.
You insist that everyone else do so as well - that's bad.


The beautiful thing about 40K message boards, Marshal, is that we occasionally get GW staff members to come on and comment on subjects like these. Here's a quote from a GW staffer from the B+C forums:

As far as I've heard or read, it has yet to be tried. That DOESN'T mean that it cannot be done. "Could" is a LOT different than "can" or "can't". So go ahead and make some female Space Marines! Make your own fluff! DO WHAT YOU LIKE. That's what the hobby is all about. It IS a fictional universe after all.

And if anyone wants to convert an all-female Space Marine army, PLEASE send me good photos. i think they'd be cool!

If GW staff don't mind, then why should we?

Oh and woman have boobs is an unchangeable fact and the fact that the guy who made them didn't even freaking paint them is great.

So you glued heads on male bodies and then sent them off to get painted. Then you posted on here to have people say you rock is really sad.

Next time please try to model them right and then paint them yourself.

MauleedlovesYakeface:

Your posts in this thread have been hostile, inflammatory and unacceptable by Dakka standards. You have insulted Doctor Thunder personally, which is strictly forbidden by Dakka Rule #1 (click on the link in my sig to see all the Dakka rules). I don't know why you feel the need to attack him simply because you don't like his work and other people do. Regardless of the reason, this behavior is strictly forbidden.

If you persist in this kind of post, you will receive a temporary suspension from Dakka.

Thank you.

Iorek wrote:MauleedlovesYakeface:

Your posts in this thread have been hostile, inflammatory and unacceptable by Dakka standards. You have insulted Doctor Thunder personally, which is strictly forbidden by Dakka Rule #1 (click on the link in my sig to see all the Dakka rules). I don't know why you feel the need to attack him simply because you don't like his work and other people do. Regardless of the reason, this behavior is strictly forbidden.

If you persist in this kind of post, you will receive a temporary suspension from Dakka.

Thank you.

Bow before the will of the almighty MOD EMPEROR, you Heretic scum! achem... sorry... couldn't resist.

Doc has some very good points in that last post, btw. I like the one were the GW design guys give a big thumbs up on female space marines. Maybe we'll get a line of them yet... heh heh heh...

BaronIveagh wrote:

Doc has some very good points in that last post, btw. I like the one were the GW guys give a big thumbs up on female space marines. Maybe we'll get a line of them yet... heh heh heh...

Oh, I seriously doubt it. But it does give us a really good insight into the tone and attitude that the GW guys have towards the hobby. They believe that there is room at the table for everyone, and so do I.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Doc has some very good points in that last post, btw. I like the one were the GW guys give a big thumbs up on female space marines. Maybe we'll get a line of them yet... heh heh heh...

Oh, I seriously doubt it. But it does give us a really good insight into the tone and attitude that the GW guys have towards the hobby.

Eh, maybe not, but we might get some better modeled SoB though...

I really Like them especially after they have been painted. I find that the "normal" armor is far more realistic from an armoring perspective. Molding breasts on to armor would create a trap for projectiles. Historically, body and Tank armor, much of the benefit gained from armor was gained by making impacts glance from armor. Hello sloped armor. Plus I have always found that marine heads are always out of scale. The elf heads really make the armor look hulking. So while I do not have a desire to make my own female marines. I have no issues with them regarding Fluff, and I really like his models. Keep up the good work DR T.

Neil

P.S. @ the individuals who seem to have great issue at the conversions being a "mere" head swap, I say... Sometimes simplicity is a far more elegant solution.

neiltj1 wrote:I really Like them especially after they have been painted. I find that the "normal" armor is far more realistic from an armoring perspective.

I've tried it both ways. With the Black Widows, I tried resculpting their armor, and with these conversions, I just did a simple head swap.

Truth be told, I'm not completely pleased with either approach.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

neiltj1 wrote:I really Like them especially after they have been painted. I find that the "normal" armor is far more realistic from an armoring perspective.

I've tried it both ways. With the Black Widows, I tried resculpting their armor, and with these conversions, I just did a simple head swap.

Truth be told, I'm not completely pleased with either approach.

Did you try a slight alteration on the hip/torso ratio and a head swap? Might work.

Mastiff wrote:Fantastic work, and kudos for not letting small minds bring you down. I'm always happy to see people have fun with their projects, rather than letting someone they've never met dictate what is and isn't acceptable. The heads work really well, and the vast gap between the legs always worked better for the female physiology than the male.

I'm now going to add a female marine or two to my chapter. Just for spite.

Okay, so now everyone that doesn't like them is just "small-minded"?

bs. Whatever happened to the days when you could disagree with someone without being put down for it? Most people posting have had pretty good reasons for disliking the conversions*, in my opinion. Doesn't mean he can't make the models or that he has to change them at all, just means we aren't all sheep bleating the same damn thing at each other.

If all you want to hear is praise and don't want people to give you their honest opinions then don't post your work on a public forum.



*Except for whatshisname's argument, "OMG put b00bs on them or they aren't girLS!!1"...I'm wiling to buy that a woman in hulking Space Marine armor wouldn't have to have breasts fashioned onto her breastplate. If you've ever seen a woman in modern day military garb, body armor and all, it's not always that easy to tell they're girls. It makes perfect sense that the armor would be big enough to hide everything.

Sidstyler wrote:

Mastiff wrote:Fantastic work, and kudos for not letting small minds bring you down. I'm always happy to see people have fun with their projects, rather than letting someone they've never met dictate what is and isn't acceptable. The heads work really well, and the vast gap between the legs always worked better for the female physiology than the male.

I'm now going to add a female marine or two to my chapter. Just for spite.

Okay, so now everyone that doesn't like them is just "small-minded"?

bs. Whatever happened to the days when you could disagree with someone without being put down for it? Most people posting have had pretty good reasons for disliking the conversions, in my opinion. Doesn't mean he can't make the models or that he has to change them at all, just means we aren't all sheep bleating the same damn thing at each other.

If all you want to hear is praise and don't want people to give you their honest opinions then don't post your work on a public forum.

The point I think why they were called small minded was that the majority of the complaints were in the vein of "OMG MAREENZ CANNOT BE CHIXORSZ!!!!!!1111oneoneone" rather then "I'm not happy with the alteration to 2nd marine from left, you should try adjusting the neck with GS."

For the record and for those who don't understand English. I never once said anything to the guy that has put the post on here. Never once mentioned him or her by name. Now I did say something about people that like transgendered people. Which I take full responsibility for.

HOWEVER.

Someone glueing elf heads to a male space marine body should not be looked at as some revolutionary thinker. This is my point which has been lost.

If the said person didn't paint these models then there is something wrong. Him or her has not said anything about the issue so that leads to the conclussion that he/she did not.

As posted above this is a public forum and people are asking for opinions. Mine is not any more important then anyone elses. But I'm going to speak my mind when someone is praised for no good reason.

MauleedlovesYakeface wrote:But I'm going to speak my mind when someone is praised for no good reason.

Yes, how DARE someone be praised for anything less then Golden Demon worthy work!

Look, yakee, that you don't like his work, that's cool. Not everyone has the same taste. But instead of running around to all sorts of forums dissing Docs stuff like an asshat, make constructive criticisms of the work so that the next batch are improvements. Saying something sucks and explaining how to fix what sucks about it is a critique. You don't like the elf heads, cool, what would you suggest be used then?

Saying it sucks just because you don't like that they got praise for it is just being a dick.

well painted and modeled.


but .... i don't like them. if they hadda been more unique,to your models, instead of SM's with womens heads it would have been a lot more interesting

But i do like the paintjobs.

Spacegoat wrote:I think that even though we all play a game about screaming bald men fighting slightly spikier angry bald men atop a pile of skulls, said bald men are all rolling their eyes at the guy in a corner going "tee hee boobs".

Look, almost every project this guy has put out has been centred around the same thing. Each and every valkyrie, guardswoman, black widow and whatever else I've missed, is the result of hours of planning. sculpting and converting oversized breasts. Think about that for a minute.

I have thought about it long and hard. Not enough oversized breasts in my 40k. I for one was rather disappointed not to see more of em in this offering by the awesome Dr T.

Keep it up bro. Some people are just too stuck up their own donkey-caves to be able to let a man have his foibles.

Not a fan of female space marines at all, but your paint jobs are very well executed.

Egads man! You post all of your threads, EVERYWHERE.
All my regular 40k modelling forums have a copy of each of your threads, don't you think that's a little too much?

Specially the projects that boil the water a little, if you know what I mean.
Causing nerd rage on multiple forums can't be good for the internet community.

Lordhat wrote:

Spacegoat wrote:I think that even though we all play a game about screaming bald men fighting slightly spikier angry bald men atop a pile of skulls, said bald men are all rolling their eyes at the guy in a corner going "tee hee boobs".

Look, almost every project this guy has put out has been centred around the same thing. Each and every valkyrie, guardswoman, black widow and whatever else I've missed, is the result of hours of planning. sculpting and converting oversized breasts. Think about that for a minute.

I have thought about it long and hard. Not enough oversized breasts in my 40k. I for one was rather disappointed not to see more of em in this offering by the awesome Dr T.

Keep it up bro. Some people are just too stuck up their own donkey-caves to be able to let a man have his foibles.

No one is grabbing pitchforks and going to his house to burn the models...

We are just saying their a novelty and should be treated as such.

Group:

Try to keep the discussion on topic.

This thread is starting to get a lot of reports, and this is the P&M Forum, not the Detective Forum, the Who Painted What Forum, etc.

These threads are pretty much to discuss the models at hand as the OP wishes to discuss them.

RedSarge wrote:Egads man! You post all of your threads, EVERYWHERE.
All my regular 40k modelling forums have a copy of each of your threads, don't you think that's a little too much?

Specially the projects that boil the water a little, if you know what I mean.
Causing nerd rage on multiple forums can't be good for the internet community.

(Looks at his work table) If Docs stuff causes Nerd Rage... I should dub this project Gamma-Irradiated Nerd PCP...

The Blood God will be pleased, I think...

BaronIveagh wrote:I say that whatever the eight foot tall woman with the thunder hammer says is beautiful is beautiful.

LOL
Yeah, (wipe away tear from laughing), I guess it would be wouldn't it?

Thunder Woman: That orks Douche is a piece of art!
Guard: Yes maam! It certainly is!

Emperors Faithful wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I say that whatever the eight foot tall woman with the thunder hammer says is beautiful is beautiful.

LOL
Yeah, (wipe away tear from laughing), I guess it would be wouldn't it?

Thunder Woman: That orks Douche is a piece of art!
Guard: Yes maam! It certainly is!

Given that the other project that I'm working on is a bunch of TPC's female IG... that statement takes on a whole new and even more bizarre context...

BaronIveagh wrote:
Given that the other project that I'm working on is a bunch of TPC's female IG... that statement takes on a whole new and even more bizarre context...

TPC's? Whats that?
And how are female IG related to ork douches? (And do I want to know?)

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:

insaniak wrote:So... if I make a plate out of baked clay, and then make another plate out of cast aluminium... which one is really a plate, and which one is something else?

Are you seriously saying the difference between men and women is the same as the difference between clay and aluminum?

No, I'm saying that it's possible for there to be more than one way to produce different things that serve the same purpose.

The fact that the majority of the known (ie: established in canon) Space Marine Chapters are produced through a given process that only works on males does not mean that every Chapter uses the same process, or that other processes couldn't produce a female equivalent that isn't significantly different, abilities-wise, to a normal marine.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
Given that the other project that I'm working on is a bunch of TPC's female IG... that statement takes on a whole new and even more bizarre context...

TPC's? Whats that?
And how are female IG related to ork douches? (And do I want to know?)

The Phoenix Club. They did a bunch of resin Ican'tBeliveIt'sNotCadian IG parts to make female IG.

Just reading that brought to mind the idea of a female Commissar and a Female Space Marine standing on a wall saying that.

I still don't see the ork douche connection...

Emperors Faithful wrote:I still don't see the ork douche connection...

Think on two possible versions of that: the scared male IG agreeing, and the much creepier female commissar actually just agreeing...

huh?
You have actually lost me...

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
We are just saying their a novelty and should be treated as such.

The problem with terms like "novelty army" is that it implies that there is some sort of imaginary scale whereby some armies are more official or more valid then others.

Not only is this concept completely against the stated purpose of Games Workshop's Multiverse, but it sets up needless nerd elitism and posturing. It's basically a way of saying, "The way I make-believe is better then the way you make-believe," which is NOT what this hobby is supposed to be about.

Every army that any player has ever made has the exact same level of validity, official-ness, and fluffy-ness, which is zero. Whether you made hello kitty marines or you copied a GW paint scheme, your army is still just an army some player made, nothing more and nothing less.

The ONLY criteria that matters is this: Did the person have fun making it? If the answer is yes, then the army fulfilled the purpose of the hobby. We all enjoy the hobby in different ways and all ways are welcome, except one. If you go out of your way to crush the fun of someone else, then you have crossed the line, and are no longer welcome at the table.

oh and what happened to the black widows?

I always imagined Female space marines to be more in lines with Sisters of battle. I mean they are women in Power Armor.

Just sisters of battle that are bigger, perhaps some with clean shaven scalps, and in general an amazon appearance to them.

That said, I like what you have done. On some level the fact they are females of first and second founding chapters bugs me, but it's only a game, one in which creativity is a major aspect.

My only question being why a Crimson Fist female instead of an Imperial Fist? Unless I missed it you got both the Dorn second foundings, without doing he 1st. Just curious.

I had been toying with the idea of doing Female Chaos Space Marines, but just as a Squad of Possessed. Something along the lines of having them be deamonhosts to Deamonettes or something like that.

Keep up the creative work, it gives everyone something to debate over.

big mek boomsnikk wrote:oh and what happened to the black widows?

They're done. They won 3rd place last year at the Los Angeles Games Day. Got a big ol' trophy and everything.

cool...do you play with them in games? and will you ever make more? i like the B&C threads you made.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:
We are just saying their a novelty and should be treated as such.

The problem with terms like "novelty army" is that it implies that there is some sort of imaginary scale whereby some armies are more official or more valid then others.

Not only is this concept completely against the stated purpose of Games Workshop's Multiverse, but it sets up needless nerd elitism and posturing. It's basically a way of saying, "The way I make-believe is better then the way you make-believe," which is NOT what this hobby is supposed to be about.

Every army that any player has ever made has the exact same level of validity, official-ness, and fluffy-ness, which is zero. Whether you made hello kitty marines or you copied a GW paint scheme, your army is still just an army some player made, nothing more and nothing less.

The ONLY criteria that matters is this: Did the person have fun making it? If the answer is yes, then the army fulfilled the purpose of the hobby. We all enjoy the hobby in different ways and all ways are welcome, except one. If you go out of your way to crush the fun of someone else, then you have crossed the line, and are no longer welcome at the table.

Unless, say, you build an Ulthwe Strike Force. Or one of the armies in the back of the Imperial Armor series, or a Pre-Heresy Force. These things have defined outlines and a specific way to represent them. Dark Angels are Green, Black, or Bone, if I paint my Dark Angels Silver, then they are not Dark Angels. If I paint my Orks flesh-toned, they are not Orks. There is no, sometimes, it depends, and maybes, in these scenarios. Marc the BL guy doesn't get to set the policy on canon.

What you are doing is stopping the definition of the hobby at the army being built and on the table. The game has moved beyond that, its now a universe as much as it is a game. It is a 'setting' and it does have defined rules and situations. You can't just say the purpose of the hobby is to make you happy, that is unrealistic, maybe if you played in one small area. By joining the online community players agree to share their hobby with the world, and be influenced in return. It is an agreement to cooperate to help expand the universe and expand the hobby (in a adding more people kind of way). If I got on an internet forum and posted my Tau-aligned Emperor worshiping Space Marines with Striking Scorpion honor guard and Rangers with a Carifew Guard Pet, no one would take it seriously, because it couldn't happen, just like female space marines.

Marshal2Crusaders wrote:

If I got on an internet forum and posted my Tau-aligned Emperor worshiping Space Marines with Striking Scorpion honor guard and Rangers with a Carifew Guard Pet, no one would take it seriously, because it couldn't happen, just like female space marines.

I see you've decided to ignore my advice. That's a problem, because you still have not brought forth any evidence at all. At this point, you are just stating your opinion over and over again, and "nuh-uh" is hardly a convincing argument.

Official quotes from official sources trump anonymous internet guy every day of the week. Produce an official quote from an official source that back up your position of canon, or concede the point, those are your options.

Marc the BL guy doesn't get to set the policy on canon.

Actually he does. That is what it means when you work for GW and oversee what will and will not be included in official GW novels with the official GW logo on them, and work closely with the design team in regards to what will and will not make it into print.

Furthermore, you again are ignoring the 2nd quote from the design team published in White Dwarf. Are you claiming that the design team has no authority?

What you are doing is stopping the definition of the hobby at the army being built and on the table. The game has moved beyond that, its now a universe as much as it is a game.

Again, you claim a single shared universe, while Games Workshop declares a multiverse. Why should I listen to you instead of GW?

It is a 'setting' and it does have defined rules and situations.

Defined by who?
1) Games Workshop? If you claim that Games Workshop defines the rules of the universe, then you have defeated your own argument, because GW says we can do whatever we want, and that they WANT us to do whatever we want.

2) You? If you claim you define the rules of the universe, then you have defeated your own argument, because there is no reason we should listen to you over GW.

3) The online community? If you claim the online community defines the rules, then you have defeated your own argument, because you and I are both part o the online community, and we disagree.

So, which self-defeating argument are you referring to?

You can't just say the purpose of the hobby is to make you happy, that is unrealistic

Please tell me you are joking. This is a diversion from real life, a child's play-thing that we do in our spare time. It is a beer and pretzels game. We're playing make-believe with toy soldiers. Real life is serious and dire. If the escape from serious and dire has also become dire and serious, then what purpose does it serve?

By joining the online community players agree to share their hobby with the world, and be influenced in return. It is an agreement to cooperate to help expand the universe and expand the hobby.

So, where in that agreement is the clause that players have to conform to your personal multiverse or be written off as a novelty army? Cause I don't remember that being in the contract.

What I do remember being in the contract is an obligation to be respectful and tolerant to the way other people approach the hobby, and not go out of your way to attempt to crush their fun. It's in the forum rules. Any chance I can convince you to live up to that one from now on?