Same old discussion that we have on Dakka every time a new codex is released.

Wow, this nerdrage is getting intense. Jus tthought I would leave that here.

All LRs are squadrons and its not limited.
-~600 points for 3 tanks, as a squadron Immobilized = Destroyed

True, but armies that don't specialize in anti armor will have an incredibly hard time bringing down 6 or more FA14 tanks with immense firepower. I know my army is going to be toothless against a LR mech force.

The plasmaruss exists.
-again points

210 isn't that much considering it's capable of killing a full terminator squad on average rolls and a half squad on bad ones. Or really anything else it turns its attention too in one round of shooting. 210 isn't that much when you consider that it can easily eliminate an entire marine squad every turn and those are also 200 points.

Penal troops have gaunt statlines and rending for less points.
-they have a random roll like possessed, no one will use them

Except unlike the possessed they are ludicrously cheap and their two possibilities don't seem to go against army comp or deployment in any way. They aren't going to roll fleet or wings after being placed in a rhino.

Heavy sentinals are apparenltly as hardy as dreadnauts with the same gun options.
-AV12/10/10 no scout, 1x BS3 weapon Dreads are 12/12/10 with 2x BS4 weapons

I'll take two MM or plasma sentinals over one dread with a las/plas and a gloriously effective missile launcher.

-1 unit per turn gets twin linked heavy weapons is not ridiculous, units going to ground (not shooting) and getting a bonus to the cover save is not extreme

It's pretty extreme when you get to have those options on any unit when its conveniant. Even then though its not that extreme, just when its coupled with a substantial near army wide points decrease and increase in armament does it start to sound like a bit much. It's like how the orks got cheaper then got furious charge. And then they all got frag grenades..

-which still has as many KP as other armies and all run away/sweeping advance at once and have to shoot at one target. Really? You think IG with KP is a guard advantage?

Depending on how the army is constructed having 15+ scoring units in game with objectives and a single kill point in KP missions is a pretty nice option. I can see russ hordes running along side the two ameoba squads in any KP game. Keep in mind, three russes in a squadron is also only one KP, and its not hard to imagine 9 russes, an amoeba squad and an HQ choice being a 5 KP army.

If they follow the current trend, Marbo will be around 300 points and the gaunts will be around 10 each.

What are you talking about? Everything except the russ in the codex is getting cheaper.

ShumaGorath wrote:
True, but armies that don't specialize in anti armor will have an incredibly hard time bringing down 6 or more FA14 tanks with immense firepower. I know my army is going to be toothless against a LR mech force.

Get in there with a powerfist if you lack ranged anti-tank, it will work wonders. static heavy weapons like Lascannons have been the least effective heavy tank killers since 5E came out.

210 isn't that much considering it's capable of killing a full terminator squad on average rolls and a half squad on bad ones. Or really anything else it turns its attention too in one round of shooting. 210 isn't that much when you consider that it can easily eliminate an entire marine squad every turn and those are also 200 points.

I think it just means don't DS them where an Executioner is going to burn them, or have them Run after DSing. If spread out over the 2" coherency, it's much much harder to kill termi's. Same deal as if you were in range and LoS of a demolisher (2 PC's+LC or Demo cannon) or a Vindi.

Yes it sounds disgusting, yes it may be the IG cheese unit, but we don't have points out yet for it. If it's 200 or so, expect to see it in almost every IG army. If it's 275-300, nobody will ever field it.

Except unlike the possessed they are ludicrously cheap and their two possibilities don't seem to go against army comp or deployment in any way. They aren't going to roll fleet or wings after being placed in a rhino.

We don't know what else this unit has or is disadvantaged with. It certainly seems very cool right now, and my end up being so, but it's also a T3 S3 I3 unit that's going to die very easily.

I'll take two MM or plasma sentinals over one dread with a las/plas and a gloriously effective missile launcher.

I'd take a Dread with lascannon and a DCCW over two MM sentinels any day of the week. The dread can wade into a unit of Orks or Space Marines and crush faces, the Sentinels cannot.

It's pretty extreme when you get to have those options on any unit when its conveniant. Even then though its not that extreme, just when its coupled with a substantial near army wide points decrease and increase in armament does it start to sound like a bit much. It's like how the orks got cheaper then got furious charge.

Given how overcosted IG heavy weapons and basic troopers are now, without reducing them to ludicrous points values I think it's a decent compromise. Would you rather have faced 300 guardsmen packing 65 heavy weapons and 70 specials?

And then they all got frag grenades..

Because we all know how effective those are on Guardsmen Most IG players would rather not have them and have cheaper dudes.

Depending on how the army is constructed having 15+ scoring units in game with objectives and a single kill point in KP missions is a pretty nice option. I can see russ hordes running along side the two ameoba squads in any KP game. Keep in mind, three russes in a squadron is also only one KP, and its not hard to imagine 9 russes, two amoeba squads and an HQ choice being a 6 KP army.

This is the result of an awkward solution to a poor game mechanic, and there exist significant vulnerabilities in amalgamating such units. One CSM squad charging a 55man platoon is probably going to run it down. One Daemon Prince into an LR squadron stands a very good chance of killing off all 3.

What are you talking about? Everything except the russ in the codex is getting cheaper.

And Stormtroopers, 60% cost increase. Say hello to IG's Vanguard Vets.

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah, and there can be nine of them.

I was kidding... but I suspect you knew that. And Vanq's are horrible as written in the new Guard Codex. You'd need to take 9 of them in order for them to be effective.

ShumaGorath wrote:All LRs are squadrons and its not limited.

Which is good, because arbitrarily limiting some would make no sense. Furthermore if they are true Squadrons, as in 'Immobilisation = Death', then it's really not so bad.

ShumaGorath wrote:The plasmaruss exists.

With so many cover saves in 5th I really don't see the issue with big AP3 and AP2 beasties. Plus it's going to cost as much as a Land Raider yet not have the armour or the transport capacity, so you're not exactly going to be bringing nine of them to a standard battle.

ShumaGorath wrote:The deathstrike exists.

And is a waste of time.

ShumaGorath wrote:Penal troops have gaunt statlines and rending for less points.

And roll randomly for abilities, like Possessed, and everyone takes those.

ShumaGorath wrote:Heavy sentinals are apparenltly as hardy as dreadnauts with the same gun options.

TL-Lascannons and DCCWs? No. They've got Plasma Cannons and Missile Launchers added, and the front is AV12. Side is still AV10 according to the summary sheet.

ShumaGorath wrote:Every unit can have rediculous anti tank orders or the ability to become pathfinders/lictors whenever someone shouts at them.

They get a re-roll. Oooooh!

ShumaGorath wrote:Oh, and they all get to turn into one giant kill point.

Yes 'cause the current KP situation with Guard is so much better. Look, I'll level with you, the amorphus blob Platoon idea is idiotic, but they had to do something about KPs.

ShumaGorath wrote:None of this sounds a bit extreme to you?

No more than free Drop Troops and free Initiative 4 for all Guardsmen through CoD. It sounds better than the current Guard list, I'll give you that, but extreme? No. And you might be the only person who thinks the new Storm Troopers sound even remotley useful.

ShumaGorath wrote:I was happy to switch to my nice happy medium tier marine codex from the tyranid abomination. But I think that was the low point on the GW power rollercoaster.

The Tyranids are an abomination not because of power, but because of focus - they shifted the army away from hordes towards TMCs - and for that it fails, even if it happened to be 100% balanced (which it isn't, but that's not the point).

BYE

We don't know what else this unit has or is disadvantaged with. It certainly seems very cool right now, and my end up being so, but it's also a T3 S3 I3 unit that's going to die very easily.

But it will hit the opponant hard before it does, and even then it likely is going to be a fraction of the army. The only big issue being the KP it occupies, can these amoeba too?

Get in there with a powerfist if you lack ranged anti-tank, it will work wonders. static heavy weapons like Lascannons have been the least effective heavy tank killers since 5E came out.

I don't think it's going to be that easy to get a powerfist through the killzone of ap3 ordinance, lascanons, and heavy bolters. Especially not with a rending penal legion covering the front and sides of six tanks at the same time. It's only easy to assault unprotected squadrons, and the IG hardly seem like an army that can't field a speed bump unit.

I'd take a Dread with lascannon and a DCCW over two MM sentinels any day of the week. The dread can wade into a unit of Orks or Space Marines and crush faces, the Sentinels cannot.

Given the immense amount of ap3 or better pie and blasts coming out of these rumors I doubt that the sentinals are going to really need to wade into the marines. As for orks, lootas nobs and PKs in squads tend to end that threat quicker then they should. Also the two sentinals are still AV 12 and you need two lucky kills to take them out of the game rather then one. They are a better tarpit against hordes.

This is the result of an awkward solution to a poor game mechanic, and there exist significant vulnerabilities in amalgamating such units. One CSM squad charging a 55man platoon is probably going to run it down. One Daemon Prince into an LR squadron stands a very good chance of killing off all 3.

I doubt the daemon prince is going to get through the manwall in front of the tanks that easily. Also given lumbering the tanks will probably be rolling away when and if they get hit. Statistically it's got good odds of killing one and maybe damaging a second. In response it'll almost certainly die in a horrible way.

As for the 55 man team running off the board, it'll probably have a commisar in there. I doub't it'l happen to a single chaos marine squad. LD 8 with seargeants rerollable with stubborn isn't that bad (the seargans make them 8 and commis reroll and stubborn right?) Hell, 10 on 55 is pretty good odds for the guardsman depending on whats in that amoeba.

I just lost a big reasoned response to HMBC because "the link was broken". Screw it. My synopsis was "seperate these rumors are all fine and good. Together they are worrying me."

The army sounds like a whole which is far greater then the sum of its parts. And its parts are all getting cheaper and more effective.

ShumaGorath wrote:The army sounds like a whole which is far greater then the sum of its parts. And its parts are all getting cheaper and more effective.

Given the new 50 point base squad, combined with 15 point PGs and probably mandatory vox casters I don't think my army will go down in points much. It has been rumored that tanks will increase in price. So far we know that chimeras decrease in price, and IG decrease slightly but have some more expensive significant options. Storm troopers are going up in price hugely and seem pretty bad. Tank squadrons seem bad, especially if tanks increase in cost too.
To me it seems like the army as a whole will be better, but not very much. Orders will be significant, but most things will stay very "meh".

ShumaGorath wrote:Guard armies are going to function differently then what we're used too but these rumors terrify me. They are sounding like orcs with the taus guns and all of the eldars stupid special rules.

They even get a lictor. And rending gaunts. Superdevastators in cheap high armor tanks. Oh and space marines. They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.

Tier one is getting a new friend in a month and a half.

While calling new IG "orcs with the taus guns and all of the eldars stupid special rules" is pure hyperbole, I think the comparison with the Ork Codex is somewhat appropriate. Orks were an army list that dated back to 3rd Ed, and their new codex contained some new and powerful specialist units combined with a significant decrease in the point cost of their "bread and butter" units. It is therefore not all that "terrifying" or unprecedented to see a Codex receive a bump of this magnitude. And it's worth noting that the loss of doctrines is going to help balance some of these new goodies.

I'll ignore the rest of your post, save to point out that calling Storm Troopers "better space marines" is crazy enough to make me think that you're just trolling this thread.

@ Shuma: did you just say that the orks probably won't make it through the pie? Did you really just say that? Really? The power-Klaw delivery system known as boys can currently eat pie all day long and the nob will still get there 9/10 times. The ability to squeeze in 3-4 more tanks into an 1850 list probably won't stop them... cover, KFF and all.

You are making making massive assumptions. Assuming a tank squadron is unreachable by a daemon prince (who would have wings) because of the penal legion (who has rending even though you need to roll a 6) around it? And if you dont have any ranged anti-tank, and your Powerfists are walking across the board, it doesnt matter what army you go against now does it? I have no idea how Sentinels are better than SM dreads. This is getting silly.

Back on topic, have we got a confirmation on squad costs yet? 40, 50, 55, slight difference there. Did they explain the chimera lasguns in a way that I wont have to play it different at every store?

Dave47 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Guard armies are sounding like orcs with the taus guns and all of the eldars stupid special rules.

Tier one is getting a new friend in a month and a half.

I'll ignore the rest of your post, save to point out that calling Storm Troopers "better space marines" is crazy enough to make me think that you're just trolling this thread.

Shuma "trolling"? Say it ain't so!

All I can do is think back to the SM Codex: Cheaper Marines with free gear sounded great. Sternguard sounded awesome. Vanguard sounded more awesome. Thunderfire sounded incredible. Then we saw the costs and tried to build armies... Not so awesome.

Guard seems to be heading down the same path.

Honestly 50 points for a Guard Squad isn't bad if the Ld8 Sergeant comes as standard.

BYE

My hope is that squads will be 50 points, come with frags, Ld8 Sgt and flamer/GL and HB/mortar. +5pts to upgrade to meltagun/Autocannon/Missile, +10points to upgrade Lascannon/Plasmagun.

But if it is just 50 points + guns, then i'll still be happy that i'm saving 10 points per squad.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It sounds better than the current Guard list, I'll give you that, but extreme? No.

I'd argue against this. The new codex is looking weaker and weaker every passing day. Sure, we got a nice splash of optimism to start with, but when the chips are down, I believe it will be found that many people, me included, will yearn back to the underpowered crap armylist we currently have.

All I can say is wow. You guys went from yay guard to oh my god i'm gonna sell my army in less than 24 hours. Can we hold the doomsday rants until the book is actually out please

I'm excited about the new codex. Just lowering basic troop price in any way and dropping the chimera 30pts each is enough for me to be excited. But I guess I'm easy to please

To be fair, I was already skeptical last Friday, and have only become more and more so.

Rumors have gone from X-TREME and wishy to cold and underwhelming with the new information. It's not THAT bad but many things that we once thought would be awesome are turning out to have flaws that make them not so awesome.

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

Agamemnon2 wrote:To be fair, I was already skeptical last Friday, and have only become more and more so.

Whoah there. The loss of drop troopers is a big deal, but let's not be hasty. On balance, I'm still anticipating a stronger Codex. As far as I can tell, this is the state of affairs with regards to verified information about the new Codex:

The Good
-Orders.
-Cheaper infantry with free Frag Grenades.
-Cheaper Chimeras that may have more fire ports and can (presumably) transport any squad, and not just the squad that bought them.
-Tanks have more side armor and are shootier.

The Bad
-No more doctrines.
-Tanks are slower and more expensive.

The Ugly
-16 point Storm Troopers. (You can't really call them "nerfed" since they haven't been worth taking for a decade, but it's sad that GW still can't figure out how to fix them.)

@ Vik,Ph34r,JHDD,HBMC,Aggy,Vak, and Kungfu_

(Sinister sibilant voice whispering) Yes, Yes, give into your fear and anger. Feel the power of the Dark Side within you. Let it control you through your fear so that you may tap into its power.

Yes, yes now that you are empowered by the fear of the unknown you can free yourself from the shackles of GW. THROW OFF THE OPPRESSIVE YOKE! and sell me your IG armies at one-tenth their value before the new codex comes out and enslaves you again.(Evil Laughter)

Dave47 wrote:The Bad
-No more doctrines.

I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. I'm sad to see the concept of Doctrines vanish into the shadows of 'Old 40K' (a mythical land of options and flavour where LatD Mutants and Kroot Mercs frollic in the sun with Iron Warriors and Non-Generic Daemons), but I'm not sad to see the actual Doctrine System we have go away. Like a lot of things GW does (and the Traits System fits right under this banner as well), the Doctrine System was a fantastic concept executed in a horrbily typical hamfisted manner. 80% of the Doctrines were useless, 15% of them were half-way decent, and the remaining 5% were damn-near mandatory.

Any system that gives you a bonus by forcing you to 'give up' something you weren't even going to take in the first place (eg. Priests for Guard, allies in a 'We Stand Alone' Marine force, etc.) is doomed to failure.

focusedfire, I just shat roflcakes

H.B.M.C. wrote:I wouldn't say that's a bad thing. I'm sad to see the concept of Doctrines vanish into the shadows of 'Old 40K' (a mythical land of options and flavour where LatD Mutants and Kroot Mercs frollic in the sun with Iron Warriors and Non-Generic Daemons), but I'm not sad to see the actual Doctrine System we have go away. Like a lot of things GW does (and the Traits System fits right under this banner as well), the Doctrine System was a fantastic concept executed in a horrbily typical hamfisted manner. 80% of the Doctrines were useless, 15% of them were half-way decent, and the remaining 5% were damn-near mandatory.

Oh, I agree with all of that. The general implementation of Doctrines was a disaster, what with most Doctrines only being "useful" in the sense that they could be used to quickly identify novice IG players. But there's no denying the incredible game-changing usefulness of things like Iron Discipline (pre 5th Ed.) or Drop Troopers (in all editions). And 5th Ed. combat rules meant you should almost always get +1 initiative from Close Order Drill, which can help you take down an extra Marine before your squad is annihilated.

Thus, the removal of these doctrines is something of a nerf, which helps to balance the new benefits IG players will be receiving.

focusedfire

(Sinister sibilant voice whispering) Yes, Yes, give into your fear and anger. Feel the power of the Dark Side within you. Let it control you through your fear so that you may tap into its power.

Yes, yes now that you are empowered by the fear of the unknown you can free yourself from the shackles of GW. THROW OFF THE OPPRESSIVE YOKE! and sell me your IG armies at one-tenth their value before the new codex comes out and enslaves you again.(Evil Laughter)

Colonel "Lady Death" Trevaline, CO 12001st Valusian: "Yes. Yes; I believe you are right...There is no hope anymore for my beloved Regiment. The future will be in the hands of those arrogant tankers. I should put in a request for transfer.. BLAM! The Regimental Comissar steps forward and addresses the troops with a cold voice. "There will be no transfers! There will be no steps backwards or anymore talk about Tank Squadrons in this regiment!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Honestly 50 points for a Guard Squad isn't bad if the Ld8 Sergeant comes as standard.

BYE

10 men including serg indeed.

Same old discussion that we have on Dakka every time a new codex is released

QFT.

Same old fething dakka. No wonder this site has such a bad rep.

You should all listen to Mr. Shep more, he seems to know what he is talking about.
Or, you know, wait until you actually see the book, as opposed to getting worried about half arsed recollections of some degenerate burnout who.... errr..... hang on...!

Everytime you get out reds8n, we PULL YOU BACK IN!

Not just Dakka, every place has this amount of piss and whining. Less piss and whining, more fething piss and vinegar you gaks!

Give it a few months and people will rear their ugly gobs at the next codex or army book, again crying and waving their hammy excuses for arms around crying "how could you!" and GW will look down on them and whisper "because.."

They are just jerks like that... Jerky jerk faces with their jerk plastic, oh how I love the jerk plastic....

We knew that doctrines would go away as far back as last September. They're now being replaced with orders, all of which sound useful.

ShumaGorath wrote:armies that don't specialize in anti armor

Stop. Stop it, right there. This is rubbish. Armies that didn't prepare are going to suffer, yes. That's WAD anyway you look at it.

210 isn't that much considering it's capable of killing a full terminator squad

Other things can do that. There's always a paper to your rock. Everything can die. What exactly is the problem?

Except unlike the possessed they are ludicrously cheap

They're also ludicrously fragile. They're nothing but a nice niche unit. How come everyone pictures them as the ultimate deathstar unit?!? Surely not because of the random chance they might get a rending wound in once in a blue moon?

It's pretty extreme when you get to have those options on any unit when its conveniant. Even then though its not that extreme, just when its coupled with a substantial near army wide points decrease and increase in armament does it start to sound like a bit much. It's like how the orks got cheaper then got furious charge. And then they all got frag grenades..

And it turned out to be a beautiful codex, frags notwithstanding. Really, in my current list I save about 180-190 points net, considering all the effects, and then I don't have the points for any of the new toys. No Ogryns, no third (! not fourth or ninth!) MBT, no Valk.

I dunno about you guys, but even with ultra-redundant and unnecessary tanks and 16 Point Epic Fail Troopers, I'm still looking forward to this Codex. I mean despite there being parts that I utterly despise, like mandatory special characters, Wargear that does one thing in one Codex and another thing in a different Codex, and the way Tac Squads are written, I really like the current Marine Codex. And besides, they'd have to do some sort of gargantuan feth up to make any Codex as bad as the 'Chaos' Codex, so really everything since that half-assed excuse for a Codex has been moving on up IMO. It literally can't get any worse, so why worry?

Gonna write me up a big review like my Chaos one. See we if we can't beat Dakka's record for longest thread...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Finally some actual confirmations. No dates, but 'May' is good enough really, here is the first wave:

Codex: Imperial Guard
Cadian Command Squad [Box]
Cadian Shock Troops [Box]
Catachan Command Squad [Box]
Catachan Jungle Fighters [Box]
Imperial Guard Valkyrie [Box]
Imperial Guard Sentinel [Box]
Imperial Guard Ratlings [Unknown]
Imperial Guard Primaris Psyker [Blister]
Imperial Guard Regimental Advisors [Blister]
Imperial Guard Lord Commissar [Blister]
Imperial Guard Cadian Battleforce [Box]
Imperial Guard Catachan Battleforce [Box]

So the material that listed 4 boxes and 4 blisters was wrong. There are 8 boxes and 3 blisters, one of them Direct Only, and we don't know what the Ratlings will be in (hopefully a tiny box ala Grimaldus/Gretchin Mobz and not 3-per blister).

BYE

The information from the Design Studio Open Day was "4 plastic boxes 4 blisters and 2 battleforces (Cadian & Catachan)".

And the four boxes and blisters are:

Boxes
Cadian Command Squad (plastic)
Catachan Command Squad (plastic)
Imperial Guard Valkyrie (plastic)
Imperial Guard Sentinel (plastic)

Blisters
Imperial Guard Ratlings (metal)
Imperial Guard Primaris Psyker (metal)
Imperial Guard Regimental Advisors (metal)
Imperial Guard Lord Commissar (metal)

The two troops boxes don't count as they are not new releases, being straight re-packages of the same sprues... albeit less models for more $ per model. GW never count such re-releases as new products in their promo lovefests.

And a slight further clarification on the release dates, from April's White Dwarf:

May 2nd:
Codex Imperial Guard
Cadian Command Squad
Cadian Shock Troops
Catachan Command Squad
Catachan Jungle Fighters
Imperial Guard Valkyrie
Imperial Guard Sentinel
Imperial Guard Ratlings
Imperial Guard Primaris Psyker

May 16th:
Imperial Guard Regimental Advisors
Imperial Guard Lord Commissar
Imperial Guard Cadian Battleforce
Imperial Guard Catachan Battleforce

The 2 things I'd like to know are:

1. What units can use Valkyrie's as transports? I have heard only Storm Troopers and I have heard any unit which can use a chimera?

2. How do vets work in the new dex? Are they a single unit per army, are they an upgradable platoon? Is there a special character that allows them as troops? I have a bunch of 5 man squads from the last codex wondering what their fate is...

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:The 2 things I'd like to know are:

1. What units can use Valkyrie's as transports? I have heard only Storm Troopers and I have heard any unit which can use a chimera?

2. How do vets work in the new dex? Are they a single unit per army, are they an upgradable platoon? Is there a special character that allows them as troops? I have a bunch of 5 man squads from the last codex wondering what their fate is...

Thanks,
Chappy P!

1. Valk's are probably going to be just a choice as to what type of transport you can take, I'm not sure if there are limitations.

2. Vets are going to be an upgrade to a platoon, IIRC.

..ignore..

Vaktathi wrote:Carapace for platoons is apparently gone, but Stormtroopers can still supposedly be taken as Troops.

Apparently an unknown ammount of Stormtroopers as troops are an upgrade for the army commander, Christ that'll be an effective army against orks @ 16 points each. At least the option is there I suppose.

No carapace would be a big setback for me, a do not pass go proceed directly to Ebay type setback.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:The 2 things I'd like to know are:

1. What units can use Valkyrie's as transports? I have heard only Storm Troopers and I have heard any unit which can use a chimera?

2. How do vets work in the new dex? Are they a single unit per army, are they an upgradable platoon? Is there a special character that allows them as troops? I have a bunch of 5 man squads from the last codex wondering what their fate is...

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:..ignore..

<we now resume our regular broadcast> Sorry about that.

Latest info from those who have had sneeky peaks at earlybird copies of the Codex:

1. Valkyries don't appear to be a transport option. They are a Fast Attack choice and 1-3 in a squadron.

2. Veteran squads are a seperate Troops choice and are much like they are now.

Any word on how radical the changes are to the new Sentinel kit? I know that all weapon options and some upgrades (enclosed crew compartment) are all present in plastic thankfully, but beyond that anything new? I keep hearing that the legs will offer more flexibility in posing, is this true?

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:
Latest info from those who have had sneeky peaks at earlybird copies of the Codex:

1. Valkyries don't appear to be a transport option. They are a Fast Attack choice and 1-3 in a squadron.

2. Veteran squads are a seperate Troops choice and are much like they are now.

There are two type of Valks rumored.

This is directly from Warseer

Transports:

Fast Skimmer. Apparently 90-100pts. Troops may disembark at any point in its movement, but more than 12" and they take a dangerous terrain check. Was rumoured to allow embarked troops to deploy after deep striking. Another rumour says they will be able to DS more accurately like Drop Pods. It was originally rumoured to only be a transport for Stormtroopers, but more recently it has been said it will be available to all units that have access to Chimeras. This may be tied to a Special Character.

Fast Attack:

Valkyrie Vendetta
The “up-gunned” version of the Valkyrie. 1-3 as a single Fast Attack choice

If you have seen the Codex, can you confirm/deny this?

Valks, are a fast attack chocie, 1-3 available.

They can DS and have scout.

UNits can grav chute out of them even if they move flat out, but if they scatter then they must take dangerous terrain tests. Stormtroopers can, of course, reroll the dice when deep striking.

Gunship is another entry indeed.

Veterans are another entry as well.

Sentinel legs are indeed more "bendy".

Damn...got suckered back in again didn't I.

BrookM wrote:Any word on how radical the changes are to the new Sentinel kit? I know that all weapon options and some upgrades (enclosed crew compartment) are all present in plastic thankfully, but beyond that anything new? I keep hearing that the legs will offer more flexibility in posing, is this true?

Well, I've seen the box for the Sentinel, which definitely *appears* to have the legs in a radically different pose than the current sentinel, but it was at a head on angle so hard to tell.

The open-topped image showed a new, small search light attached to side, apparently to the 'roll-cage'. Speaking of, the bars appeared a little more sleek than they are currently. The crew compartment did appear to be 'fully enclosed', ala the Armaggedon pattern, without the open top of the Cadian pattern.

Overall it looks alot more sharp, but not drastically different.

Sorry I don't remember what the pilot or weapons looked like.


EDIT: Also, I heard some wild rumor (possibly from a redshirt) that Sentinels can DS out of a Valk, ala Elysians.. Possibly even 2 Sents at a time. What's the reliability of such a rumor, O Ye Resident Expert?

You're our lifeline Red, <3.

So is the valk only fast attack? Or fast attack AND transport selection?

The chimera is the only vehicle listed in the "dedicated transport" section.

It's possible that certain units or indeed characters might have access to one as a transport, but nothing sprang out to say that.

But, the devil is often in the detail right ?

<oh well, I see reds8n has pretty much answered this, but...>

I haven't personally seen the new Codex, but can confirm the Vendetta exists... not much beyond that though. What I said in my earlier post applies to the Valkyrie, I don't know if it also applies to the Vendetta. I assuming it does, but that's just me.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:The 2 things I'd like to know are:

1. What units can use Valkyrie's as transports? I have heard only Storm Troopers and I have heard any unit which can use a chimera?

2. How do vets work in the new dex? Are they a single unit per army, are they an upgradable platoon? Is there a special character that allows them as troops? I have a bunch of 5 man squads from the last codex wondering what their fate is...

Thanks,
Chappy P!

I'm quite new to the game, just started my army 6 months ago. It's looks like I did choose a bad time to start, new codex coming out, worlds economy in crisis... bah... Dammed Easter Europian luck!

BTW, I like the tons of tanks, guess I'm a treadhead. I just started to make a punisher conversation, for fun.

Did we determine how many men are in a Heavy Weapon Squad? 6 or 10?

I know it was mentioned before but I dont know if it was answered, did we confirm platoon squads can take a 2nd special weapon in place of a heavy?

Any word on changes to options for Vets and points costs on Ogryns?

Called it: Stormtroopers are just vespids. They would have been overrated at 10 points, and are more obviously so at 16. Marine players will whine until they actually have to face them a couple times and they notice they actually aren't that great even against the enemy they're designed to beat.

Is there any news about the artillery? In particular, any specifics about siege shells? I'm happy to see the Griffon coming back.

Raxmei wrote:Called it: Stormtroopers are just vespids. They would have been overrated at 10 points, and are more obviously so at 16. Marine players will whine until they actually have to face them a couple times and they notice they actually aren't that great even against the enemy they're designed to beat.

Is there any news about the artillery? In particular, any specifics about siege shells? I'm happy to see the Griffon coming back.

I like the idea of them, but 16 pts? Too pricy.

We don't know the actual entry as of yet, this includes their orders and what those might mean for the unit.

reds8n wrote: The chimera is the only vehicle listed in the "dedicated transport" section.

It's possible that certain units or indeed characters might have access to one as a transport, but nothing sprang out to say that.

But, the devil is often in the detail right ?

Ugh... If no one gets the Valk as a DT, then I'm passing on starting a guard army. My Entire plan has been to do an Imperial Navy army :/ At least I'll be able to get Valks for Apoc games..

Cyporiean wrote:Ugh... If no one gets the Valk as a DT, then I'm passing on starting a guard army. My Entire plan has been to do an Imperial Navy army :/ At least I'll be able to get Valks for Apoc games..

then do it. what difference does it make if you take them as 3 for 1 in a FA slot? they still get to transport who ever you like. maybe i'm reading the rules wrong but i thought independent vehicles can pick up/drop off/deploy with whoever they want. the only thing you're sacrificing is a FA slot.

Isn't it a 0-1 FA slot for 3 of them?

GW has been removing most arbitrary 0-1 slots and no rumors have mentioned anything other then Valks can be bought as squadrons 1-3. So having 9 pretty likely. It is a tad annoying though, as getting in and out of a squadron of transports is gonna be fiddly if they have to stay within 4".

Any word on whether Ogryn can ride in Valks?

No word that they can't!

If it is a full 9, thats not too horrible.. I'll just buy an old GI Joe USS FLAG and put it in my deployment zone.

Thanks for the updates guys!

Am I reading corrctly that our heavy weapons are now plasma gun insta-killable? That's good news.

On an Apoclypse note, is anyone else confused about how useful the banesword will be since it can never move and fire it's main gun?

OK, griping over. I'm still excited.

Thanks everyone for answering my questions, however I have just one question:

1. What are the veteran's point cost? Hopefully well below 16pts?? If they are troop choices and not limited in anyway, that may very well be the route I go with IG...screw Overpriced Storm Troopers =D

Thanks again for answering my other questions.
Chappy P!

Glaive Company CO wrote:

On an Apoclypse note, is anyone else confused about how useful the banesword will be since it can never move and fire it's main gun?

.

Personally, I'm trying to figure out why you'd bother moving it anyways!

US release sheet:

May 1st
42-06 IMPERIAL GUARD CATACHAN JUNGLE FIGHTERS 10 Fig Box $22.00 New - Repackaged
42-10 IMPERIAL GUARD CATACHAN COMMAND SQUAD 5 Fig Box $22.00 New
47-01-60 CODEX IMPERIAL GUARD (ENGLISH) 104pp Book $25.00 New
47-09 IMPERIAL GUARD CADIAN COMMAND SQUAD 5 Fig Box $22.00 New
47-10 IMPERIAL GUARD VALKYRIE 1 Fig Box $50.00 New
47-12 IMPERIAL GUARD SENTINEL 1 Fig Box $25.00 New
47-17 IMPERIAL GUARD CADIAN SHOCK TROOPS 10 Fig Box $22.00 New - Repackaged
47-39 IMPERIAL GUARD RATLINGS 5 Fig Blister $20.00 New - Single Print
47-40 IMPERIAL GUARD PRIMARIS PSYKER 1 Fig Blister $15.00 New - Single Print

May 15th
(DIRECT) IMPERIAL GUARD REGIMENTAL ADVISORS 3 Fig Blister $17.00 New
(DIRECT) IMPERIAL GUARD LORD COMMISSAR 1 Fig Blister $15.00 New
42-11 IMPERIAL GUARD CATACHAN BATTLEFORCE 36 Fig Box $90.00 New
47-20 IMPERIAL GUARD CADIAN BATTLEFORCE 36 Fig Box $90.00 New

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:US release sheet:

May 1st
47-01-60 CODEX IMPERIAL GUARD (ENGLISH) 104pp Book $25.00 New
47-10 IMPERIAL GUARD VALKYRIE 1 Fig Box $50.00 New
47-12 IMPERIAL GUARD SENTINEL 1 Fig Box $25.00 New

I liked your old name better...

Anyhow, good that we're getting a full-size Codex for the extra $5.

But where are the discounted triple-Valk and triple-Sentinel kits?

You know, ignoring the bitching, I'm looking forward to the new Codex, it sound like its at the very least firing people up! :-)

Don't play guard myself, very nearly started a guard army with the last codex (Started buying figures, never got arround to gluing them together), and probably still wont be tempted, but only cause I got loads of other stuff on the list to do first.

Hmm, Stormtroopers, So they can jump out of a fast moving deep striking skimmer and re-role the scatter making sure they land where you like.... wonder if that makes some difference to their value?

JohnHwangDD wrote:I liked your old name better...

Forced to change it by admin I'm afraid... fair enough I guess.

Now if only I could get my little flag thingy changed too.

@ Kungfu and A-P, Glad there are still some with a sense of humour about something none of us has really seen.

Uhmm... I don't know if anybody has picked up on this. A)But the Valks can move 24" in a turn.
B) Units can deepstrike along that path.
C)Deepstrike units are in reserve.
AND.........wait for it.........
D) Might this mean that with the Valks you don't have to roll for the reserves?

If this is true then may I refer you to my post on page 11. Because, I know people that will be happy to buy your useless overcosted stormies/vespids at one-tenth their normal price because they are so useless that no one will even want to buy one.

Call me crazy, but whatever the point costs, whatever the exact rules, this codex sounds fun... You know.... If that still matters.

Turn 1 "Deep striking" Melta guns next to enemy armour could be pretty cool.

Is there any information on Conscripts? How much they cost? Any new rules?

If a basic infantry squad runs 50, then I hope they drop conscripts down to 30. Or if they do leave them at 40, they better get a special rule.



If a squad of vets runs over 80 points, it will be a sad day :(
I really hope they still have infiltrate.



About Valks, i wonder if we will be able to deepstrike a whole platoon out of one of them...

Valkyrie has space for ten men / five Ogryn / one Sentinel / one Cyclops remote demolition vehicle with operator / one Tarantula sentry gun.

BrookM wrote:Valkyrie has space for ten men / five Ogryn / one Sentinel / one Cyclops remote demolition vehicle with operator / one Tarantula sentry gun.

In Imperial Armour. And isn't it 12 men anyway?

All right I will bite. Why would I load 16 point storm troopers into a valkerie, drive it 24 inches, unload and fire. When I can load up Vets, do the same thing cheaper, and probably get more melta guns in there. Yes being able to first turn kill armor would be really cool. But I am going to miss deep strike.

Right 12 passengers, forgot that.

And I swear by Imperial Armour, it has done a lot to spice up regular games of 40k!

foil7102 wrote:All right I will bite. Why would I load 16 point storm troopers into a valkerie, drive it 24 inches, unload and fire. When I can load up Vets, do the same thing cheaper, and probably get more melta guns in there. Yes being able to first turn kill armor would be really cool. But I am going to miss deep strike.

I agree with Foil here. Originally I was going to do the whole Storm Trooper Valkyrie heavy army, now I am glad I bought a box of old Catachans (box of 20) for the new box price. I'll bit order the new arms so they look decent, but I'll go for a more Vietnam feel than a new Storm trooper feel.

Plus if Veterans are cheaper, than I'll be able to fit in more cool stuff, like maybe fast roping Ogryns?? Hahaha...sorry couldn't help myself.

Stop. Stop it, right there. This is rubbish. Armies that didn't prepare are going to suffer, yes. That's WAD anyway you look at it.

Sorry but an army can't cope with ultra high armor mech and green tide at the same time. The game becomes rock paper scissors army list victories when both extremes become commonplace. I liked the old concept of balanced armies (though that hasn't existed since 3e rulebook lists).

Well I swing from Happy to Sad to middle of the road.

1)50 point ld8 guardsmen with frags.... Not a bargin but not bad
2)Heavy weapons costs did come down... again not a bargin but not bad
3)Orders give people a reason to shoot at my command squads now that standard squads are ld8. Will need to see costs to be sure
4)Stormies are over costed. The only special rule that I can think of that would make them worth 16 points would be if they could reroll to wound and ignore cover... both, not one or the other.
5)Valks are a super cool model, still not sold on the price or rule. 1st turn armor strike is cool, but 100 points... Will wait till I see the book. I have a feeling that they are going to be the sentinal of this edition. Cool model meh rules
6)Tanks. Being able to stay still and shoot all guns and the ordinance is nice, even if the price goes up. I do not think the squadron rule will be the be all end all. Again it comes down to cost, and 210 points for a Russ plasma tank?!? I dont think so.

@ foil, to answer your question

First, Not guaranteed that the vets will be able to use the Valks AFAIK. If they can then there is no guarantee that they will be the same as they were.
Also,Don't know the cost of the vets yet. If someone has that cost please let me know. May cost extra for them to use the Valks.(Buy the grav chutes)

Second, Any scatter on the deepstrike mean dangerous terrain test which storms get to re-roll.

Third, not the same as vespids. Come with more options, better armour, can kill tanks, has better range, and has better kill percentages against SMs than vespids for the same price.

Fourth, we don't know what the other special rules or orders are and the squad is already worth buying.

Fifth, Storms don't insta die to bolter wounds. They will make SMs and the sort actually have to turnaround and face them.

Sixth, If you IG players hate them so much the Tau empire would love to have such a force. HHMMMM, traitor storm troopers. Pls let the tau get them as human auxillaries.

I'm pretty excited, but hoping that everyone I play with doesn't jump on the guard bandwaggon, I'd rather they stick with current armies. A lot of the folks I play with tend to jump around following GW's latest releases as they're so cool (and after a few months end up back being just another marine player!). I'll start my shopping list now, the gf's already asked what I want for Easter, some pre-orders heading her way I think!!!

First, Not guaranteed that the vets will be able to use the Valks AFAIK. If they can then there is no guarantee that they will be the same as they were.
Also,Don't know the cost of the vets yet. If someone has that cost please let me know. May cost extra for them to use the Valks.(Buy the grav chutes)
(Valks are fast attack. If they can move stormies, they can move vets, if they can move ogryn, they can move vets)

Second, Any scatter on the deepstrike mean dangerous terrain test which storms get to re-roll.
(they get to re-roll the scatter, besides so what if I have to take a dangerous terrain test? This unit lands and dies. Who cares as long as the melta guns make it)

Third, not the same as vespids. Come with more options, better armour, can kill tanks, has better range, and has better kill percentages against SMs than vespids for the same price.

Fourth, we don't know what the other special rules or orders are and the squad is already worth buying.
(please see my previous post)

Fifth, Storms don't insta die to bolter wounds. They will make SMs and the sort actually have to turnaround and face them.
(stormies will never live past the turn they drop, never. Don't care if they have a 3+ save)

Sixth, If you IG players hate them so much the Tau empire would love to have such a force. HHMMMM, traitor storm troopers. Pls let the tau get them as human auxillaries.
(I would love to have the firewarriors you guys love to hate)

focusedfire wrote:First, Not guaranteed that the vets will be able to use the Valks AFAIK. If they can then there is no guarantee that they will be the same as they were.
Also,Don't know the cost of the vets yet. If someone has that cost please let me know. May cost extra for them to use the Valks.(Buy the grav chutes)

But if Valks can't carry Vets, then what's to say they can carry regular Platoon squads? Really, if only Stormtroopers can be carried, then it's worthless. And other than restrictions based on size (Terminators, Ogryns, etc.) what other transports in the game have restrictions based on troop type? A Falcon can carry Harlequins as easily as it can carry Dire Avengers, right? Putting an arbitrary rule saying that "only Stormies" can ride would be pretty ridiculous - and while I believe that GW can be pretty dumb sometimes, I don't believe they're that silly.

focusedfire wrote:Third, not the same as vespids. Come with more options, better armour, can kill tanks, has better range, and has better kill percentages against SMs than vespids for the same price.

But like Vespids, in the context of other units in their Codex, they're as useless. There are other units that will fill their role better and more cheaply. But for that matter, when did the 16 point Stormtrooper become gospel? Did Reds8n say that was their price? Has anyone who has seen the codex said they will be 16 points? Or is this all a lot of hubbub over conjecture?

For that matter, when did the 210 point Executioner become gospel, too? Folks are throwing these numbers around like they know they're certain and from what I've seen, even the folks who've seen the codex haven't mentioned the pricetag.

@ foil,

First, We don't know this until we see the rules.

Second, rerolling the scatter doesn't just save you the dangerous terrain test, it lets you be insanely more aggressive in the points you pick for your deepstriking units.
Why do I say this? Because I always run a "sucide" crisis squad and with the Pathfinder devilfish I get to re-roll my deepstrikes. That squad always kills because I place the unit a lot closer to the table edge and the opponents tanks. Whats funny about this suicide squad is that it survives about 40% of the time and when some one really focuses on getting rid of this 92 pt unit it takes a disproportionate amount of fire off of the rest of the army.

Third, No response to the vespid comparison. Good. You may not of made the comparison yourself but you went right along with it. Now the Vespids I occasionally complain about mainly due to them being jump infantry that can't deepstrike. If they could I'd start using them again on occasion.

Fourth, this whining about cover when your within 12-18" is annoying. Usually you can get into a position where they don't get cover. Especially with deepstrike.

Fifth, the amount of fire power and heat they'll take off of the rest of the army while the opponent tries to kill that 6 strong 108pt team(With weapons) makes them worth it.

Sixth,I don't hate my fire warriors. I love what they do to exposed troops. I hate the 4+ cover every where because someone snezzed and the sneeze particulates now deflect the shots.(That last part was an exagerration and at least we have markerlights, thats right, I love and still play my Tau army.)

Who honestly uses Vespids? Most of the build I have ever seen for Tau ignore them outright, for much the same reasons people are going to ignore Storm Troopers, they are overpriced for what they do.

Death By Monkeys wrote:But if Valks can't carry Vets, then what's to say they can carry regular Platoon squads? Really, if only Stormtroopers can be carried, then it's worthless. And other than restrictions based on size (Terminators, Ogryns, etc.) what other transports in the game have restrictions based on troop type? A Falcon can carry Harlequins as easily as it can carry Dire Avengers, right? Putting an arbitrary rule saying that "only Stormies" can ride would be pretty ridiculous - and while I believe that GW can be pretty dumb sometimes, I don't believe they're that silly.

Just trying to make the point that we don't know the rules yet. So don't get storms=bad stuck in the head. Keep an open mind until you see for yourself if they contain massive amounts of suckage.

Now it would be just like GW to make gravechuting cost extra for squads that don't have the deepstrike rule to use the valk feature and it being free for the ones that arleady have it in their profile(The Storms)

Death By Monkeys wrote:But like Vespids, in the context of other units in their Codex, they're as useless. There are other units that will fill their role better and more cheaply. But for that matter, when did the 16 point Stormtrooper become gospel? Did Reds8n say that was their price? Has anyone who has seen the codex said they will be 16 points? Or is this all a lot of hubbub over conjecture?

For that matter, when did the 210 point Executioner become gospel, too? Folks are throwing these numbers around like they know they're certain and from what I've seen, even the folks who've seen the codex haven't mentioned the pricetag.

Actually, you've made your mind up that they are useless before even seening the codex . I'm not saying that they are 16pts. just that they would still be very useful at that price. You guys are the only ones I think that would complain about a squad like this. A squad armed with ap3 weapons, able to take 2 meltas or flamers for 6pt/ea, that has a re-rollable deepstrike, infiltrate, better armour than the rest of their army, possible gauranteed first turn deepstrike from reserves, and has extra special orders. OMFG, thats so overpriced.(Thats sarcasm for you blokes that don't get it)

Foil brought up the point of fire warriors. Funny. If I took the 12pt/ea ethereal retinue and gave them the grenades that the storms get for free the they are 16 pts each. A deepstriked squad of storms would annihalate the Ethereal and his retinue, head to head.

Those Storms would hit 13 times, and wound / kill 6 or 7.

If the Ethereal were in cover, kill only 3 or 4.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Who honestly uses Vespids? Most of the build I have ever seen for Tau ignore them outright, for much the same reasons people are going to ignore Storm Troopers, they are overpriced for what they do.

If vespids had re-rollable deepstrike, Sv4+, acces to melta weapons even with their range 12" assault one weapon at thier 16 pts or even at 20pts they'd be spammed so fast it wouldn't even be funny.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Those Storms would hit 13 times, and wound / kill 6 or 7.

If the Ethereal were in cover, kill only 3 or 4.

What damage does the Tau do after this? Keeping in mind the squads are the same size. I only used the etheral to show what a bs4 tau costs.

Out of cover only 3-4 FW are left alive to return fire. Those 4 return fire. 5-6 hits, 4-5 wounds, 2-3 dead after saves.

In cover, 6-7 left alive. Those 7 return fire. 9 hits, 7.5ish wounds, 3-4 dead. Next turn the storms move to remove cover and wipe the squad.

Lord Cook just posted this over at WarSeer. Nothing terribly ground-breaking but a lot of it matches up with what I've been told, though some of it doesn't. But there's a few things in there that should upset some people... so enjoy!

Lord Cook wrote:New 'Rumours'

Greetings. My network of ninja spies have been working hard to root out additional information, some of which has come into my possession via unnamed persons. I'm just a middle man, so all I have is what's here, but it should be noted that I trust my source implicitly. Sadly, they do not keep up with the rumour threads, so most of what I got is already all over this thread. This is just the new stuff.

> Many confirmations of existing leaks, such as Orders, advisors as squad upgrades, etc.

> Leadership reducing ability of the psyker choir has a range of 24".

> When merging platoons you pick and choose which squads are merged. So a platoon with five infantry squads could merge them into two units of 20 men and one unit of 10 men, or any combination you like.

> Infantry squad is 50 points. This gets you 10 guardsmen, one of which is a veteran sergeant as standard.

> Meltagun = 10 points. Plasma gun = 15 points. Heavy weapons = 'pretty much the same'. We have rumours of cheaper mortars, so leave a question mark next to heavy weapons for now.

> Veterans now always come in 10 man squads. Troops choice.

> Ogryns are 115 points for a starting squad of 3, and +35 points for each new ogryn on top of that.

> The upgrade character that gives rough riders furious charge also gives them rage.

> Confirmation that chimeras are 55 points including weapons.

> Valkyrie = 115 to 125 points. No mention of what weapons you get for that. Transport capacity of 12. Regardless of how far the valkyie has moved, troops can disembark be deep striking along its movement path. Storm troopers re-roll the scatter dice for deep strike. Troops can still disembark normally. May not carry ogryns.

> Vendetta gunship =115 to 125 points. Exact cost unknown. Simply stated to me as "same sort of points as the valkyrie". Carries three twin-linked lascannons.

> More confirmation of Lumbering Behemoth.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:Lord Cook just posted this over at WarSeer.

Thanks!
____

Lord Cook wrote:- When merging platoons you pick and choose which squads are merged.

- Infantry squad is 50 points. This gets you 10 guardsmen, one of which is a veteran sergeant as standard.

- Plasma gun = 15 points.

- Veterans now always come in 10 man squads. Troops choice.

- Ogryns are 115 points for a starting squad of 3, and +35 points for each new ogryn on top of that.

- Confirmation that chimeras are 55 points including weapons.

- Valkyrie = 115 to 125 points. May not carry ogryns.

- Vendetta gunship = 115 to 125 points. Carries three twin-linked lascannons.

Color me unimpressed.

Merging Platoons? Big deal.

Infantry is 50 pts w/ Sgt? OK, no surprise there, but...

Plasma went to 15? So much for the Infantry cost "savings".

Veterans as 10-man Troops? Buh-bye Veterans, hello SWS!

35 pts per Ogryn +10 for the mandatory Bonehead? Awesome!!! NOT. In a Guard army, Ogryns are worth a maximum of 25 pts, unless they are S6 T5 W3 Monstrous Creatures with Fleet and Furious Charge... Ogryns are *NOT* worth more than a Chaos Terminator.

Chimera at 55? That's the rest of the Infantry cost savings.

Valks cost like Falcons, but cannot carry Ogryns, but can carry Elysian Sentinels? WTF? slowed. And Ogryns are punitively points expensive enough that they *should* be Valk-transportable. Still, the model is cool. But I don't think it's worth 115+ pts.

Vendetta seems like an awfully expensive Predator Annihilator...


Overall, only Infantry and Chimeras seem good. The rest is meh. Like SM.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Valks cost like Falcons, but cannot carry Ogryns, but can carry Elysian Sentinels? WTF? slowed.

I think you'll find Valks can't carry Elysian Sentinels in the new Codex either. That's the domain of Imperial Armour.

Oh, of course, even better!

JohnHwangDD wrote:Chimera at 55? That's the rest of the Infantry cost savings.

As a Mech Guard player, that IS a savings. That's a 56 points per squad(50+55=105) savings over current costs for the same gear(60+10+6+70+10+5= 161), or 142 points off of the base platoon(not including any points decrease that may happen in the Command Squad). That's another squad per platoon for about the same or slightly more than what I'm currently paying for platoons.

On the bright side, the IG bandwagon is leaving with no-one on it =)

Except, a Chimera is now only worth 45 or 50 pts, not 55 pts. Certainly not 90+ pts.

Vendetta seems like an awfully expensive Predator Annihilator...

I don't think you've priced one of those lately..

xcept, a Chimera is now only worth 45 or 50 pts, not 55 pts.

Yeah, you keep living in that world where a chimera should cost as much as a razorback. Even with twice as many (or more) weapons, better armor, twice the carrying capacity, and being amphibious.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:Now if only I could get my little flag thingy changed too.

You'd have actually be in Australia first, not just wishing you were to further imitate me.

Five points too much and the world seizes to be! Ogryn can't fly and the entire galaxy implodes! God or whatever you pray to cries at the atrocities committed in this new codex!

I'd ask to please quit nitpicking something that hasn't been released yet but you can't fight the septic tides coming from these series of tubes.

Are Ogryns getting FNP or some other special rule? Because without it, I'm having trouble justifying their 35 point cost...

EDIT: And to address BrookM, this is a News + Rumor board. We shouldn't have to wait until May to comment on the plentiful rumors swirling around.

Crap, why does the cost of the Valk keep going up?! 80, 90, 115, 125?!

35 point Ogryns.... wtf. They better be T5 FNP Rending Stubborn Furious Charge.

Mandatory 10man Vet squads, oh well, I think we saw that one coming, it was too good not to nerf :(

15 plasmagun, it better benefit from the "extra shot" order...

ShumaGorath wrote:

Vendetta seems like an awfully expensive Predator Annihilator...

I don't think you've priced one of those lately..

Well, not with AV12 and BS3 on a platform that requies SMF to stay alive, I haven't...

ShumaGorath wrote:

xcept, a Chimera is now only worth 45 or 50 pts, not 55 pts.

Yeah, you keep living in that world where a chimera should cost as much as a razorback. Even with twice as many (or more) weapons, better armor, twice the carrying capacity, and being amphibious.

Twice the guns at half the utility from worse BS and defensive weapon nerf; paper-thin armor on the largest sides; twice the capacity for less than half the passenger utility; and amphibious that is useless at least 90% of the time. 45 pts is fair.

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah, you keep living in that world where a chimera should cost as much as a razorback. Even with twice as many (or more) weapons, better armor, twice the carrying capacity, and being amphibious.

Most of us live their Shummy. The land where Chimeras are worth more than 50 points has a population of one - you. Razorback's BS4, carries Twin-Linked weapons, and has AV11 flanks. The Chimera can't move and fire both its guns like it used to, and has 6" long sides that are AV10.

It's worth 50 with guns at most.

BYE

I'll take a side armor of ten over having basic tau infantry rifles kill my transports from the front any day. I can control the facing of my tank, an eleven front armor is a joke.

As for twin linked BS4, all that says is that my one heavy bolter will hit three times. Your heavy bolters will also hit three time. One weapon destroyed result takes away all my transports teeth, a result which is a hell of a lot easier considering that armor value of 11. One weapon destroyed on a chimera means it still has a gun. True, the razorback has a slight edge while moving but I would gladly opt out of that to be able to hold a full squad and have an armor value that doesn't ensure my tank is penetrated on average rolls from a missile launcher, lance, long range melta or MM, barbed strangler, rokkit, etc.

Also twice the carrying capacity, don't forget that. You don't have to take minimum squads or combat squad just to fit into your tank.

ShumaGorath wrote:

xcept, a Chimera is now only worth 45 or 50 pts, not 55 pts.

Yeah, you keep living in that world where a chimera should cost as much as a razorback. Even with twice as many (or more) weapons, better armor, twice the carrying capacity, and being amphibious.

that's not really a fair comparison, and is pretty misleading. Amphibious isn't worth anything, The better armor up front is virtually balanced by huge AV10 sides, the carrying capacity of the IG is higher, but the survivability of what's inside is still less, and the chimera has more guns, but lower BS and they weren't twin linked. Chimeras are better, to be sure (slightly more firepower, more durable, have a fire point), but it's important to keep in mind that the Razorback is an option. The chimera isn't just the IG's fire support IFV, it's also the APC. Barring any new rules or some other reason to justify 55pts, pricing the Chimera at 50 or even 45pts probably isn't totally out of line given the cost of the HB Razorback. Now, I think the argument could be made that some of the Razorback's cost is included in the inflated price tag of Tactical squads, but by that token I'm not blown away by the cost savings of the new IG squads either.

Shuma: You're aware that Bolter Marines in front of a Chimera can see and shoot at the sliver of the side, just giving up the 4+ for shooting at a non-primary facing, right?

AV10 sides are a *huge* liability in the current environment. It's a very crappy Transport.

The only situation which a Chimera does better is when it is a pillbox. But if you need pillboxes, for the cost of 3 Chimeras, you can take a single Russ...

ShumaGorath wrote:I'll take a side armor of ten over having basic tau infantry rifles kill my transports from the front any day. I can control the facing of my tank, an eleven front armor is a joke.

As for twin linked BS4, all that says is that my one heavy bolter will hit three times. Your heavy bolters will also hit three time. One weapon destroyed result takes away all my transports teeth, a result which is a hell of a lot easier considering that armor value of 11. One weapon destroyed on a chimera means it still has a gun. True, the razorback has a slight edge while moving but I would gladly opt out of that to be able to hold a full squad and have an armor value that doesn't ensure my tank is penetrated on average rolls from a missile launcher, lance, long range melta or MM, barbed strangler, rokkit, etc.

Also twice the carrying capacity, don't forget that. You don't have to take minimum squads or combat squad just to fit into your tank.

I mentioned this is my earlier post that got beat out by HBMC, but I think you're making two key mistakes:
1) over valuing the stand and shoot value of a transport. The job of a chimera is to move squads to claim objectives, not just to stand and shoot. In this regard, it has less firepower than a razorback. The IG have and will have plenty of options for static firepower (fire support squads in particular), but have a huge gap in terms of mobile units.
2) Over valuing the durability of the tank from the front. Yes, AV 12 is notably better as front army, but AV 10 is notably worse as side armor.

Polonius wrote:Barring any new rules or some other reason to justify 55pts, pricing the Chimera at 50 or even 45pts probably isn't totally out of line given the cost of the HB Razorback.

Now, I think the argument could be made that some of the Razorback's cost is included in the inflated price tag of Tactical squads, but by that token I'm not blown away by the cost savings of the new IG squads either.

But the Tacticals get FREE basic Special and Heavy weapons included. So you can't double-count the FREEness unless you're counting the Tactical base value at 13 pts instead of 15 pts.

Were Ogryn ever confirmed to have FNP etc? If so, with T5 and 3 wounds they might be worth ~30-35 points. I would like them to be able to take a power weapon of some sort though for those sorts of points. Maybe a Bonehead or Commisar upgrade...

Really got to wonder why all the blisters and what not are single run, and why the Commissar Lord - of all things - is direct only.

Not that I mind, if I'm going to do a direct order I might as well make it worthwhile and get a bunch of stuff at the same time (now I can get the Commissar, Advisors, and the direct only Techmarine I've been meaning to get all at the same time), but just seems odd to have these brand new models not even get released in stores.

I think it's a real tossup whether or not 11/11/10 is better or worse than 12/10/10. I tend to find that I can only "control my facing" if I use Chimeras as static backfield fire-bases. (And even then, I'm vulnerable to high-mobility units.) If I try to use them as transports, and move forward, I tend to get hit on sides a lot.

It's also worth noting that a Chimera isn't transporting Space Marines, it's transporting Imperial Guardsmen.

Chimeras are strange units, in that their tank role conflicts with their transport role. Assuming they are getting free smoke + searchlights, I think 55 points is "fair," but it's hardly a "bargain" given the low cost of other 5th Ed. transports.

Lord Cook wrote:New 'Rumours'
> When merging platoons you pick and choose which squads are merged. So a platoon with five infantry squads could merge them into two units of 20 men and one unit of 10 men, or any combination you like.

> Veterans now always come in 10 man squads. Troops choice.

> Ogryns are 115 points for a starting squad of 3, and +35 points for each new ogryn on top of that.

The important part is can the platoon HQ merge with other squads? 15 guard with 6 special weapons? 25 with 8? And can it order itself?

I guess vets will just be an AF squad with BS4 if they cant deep strike.

3 ogryns are 115, but at 35 each its only 105, whats the extra 10 for? Bone'ead I guess? Before you complain about the price remember they are T5 with 3 wounds, and Stubborn. (rumor as base, or with a commissar) Thats a better tar pit than the equivalent in guardsmen, and fits in a transport. It fits perfectly with guard, they won't kill as much, but anything that can take a charge from bloodcrushers and not crumple should be worth something.

Edit: Rumor was FNP OR T5, looks like they got T5, who knows what the Bone'ead has access to, commissar should get a PW/PF at least.

1) over valuing the stand and shoot value of a transport. The job of a chimera is to move squads to claim objectives, not just to stand and shoot. In this regard, it has less firepower than a razorback. The IG have and will have plenty of options for static firepower (fire support squads in particular), but have a huge gap in terms of mobile units.

I play mech guard armies regularly (they're popular in my area for some reason) and I really don't see the chimeras as a moving transport. More often then not they're firing the big guns. It's not like the troops need to be closer to the enemy until the final turns of the game. Until then the chimera is just a shell that lets them fire their lascanon in relative safety while it fires two heavy weapons of its own.

Shuma: You're aware that Bolter Marines in front of a Chimera can see and shoot at the sliver of the side, just giving up the 4+ for shooting at a non-primary facing, right?

I was under the impression that you could only ever fire at a facing of a tank that you were on. With the only exception being that you can only see a portion of a certain facing and nothing else such as with blocking cover.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Yeah, you keep living in that world where a chimera should cost as much as a razorback. Even with twice as many (or more) weapons, better armor, twice the carrying capacity, and being amphibious.

At a worse ballistic skill, worse side armor (only better in front), carrying far worse troops that hit like wet noodles and die even faster, with no side hatches (extremely crucial), no ability to take AP2/Anti-tank weapons, and who the feth ever uses the Amphibious ability?

With a Multilaser/HB, a Chimera is only doing 4 wounds for every 3 the Razorback inflicts with it's BS4 TL HB against most infantry targets, not a huge increase. Considering the increase in cost and other disadvantages and the far inferior capabilities of the transported troops, it's a marginal benefit.

3 ogryns are 115, but at 35 each its only 105, whats the extra 10 for? Bone'ead I guess? Before you complain about the price remember they are T5 with 3 wounds, and Stubborn. (rumor as base, or with a commissar) Thats a better tar pit than the equivalent in guardsmen, and fits in a transport. It fits perfectly with guard, they won't kill as much, but anything that can take a charge from bloodcrushers and not crumple should be worth something.

Yes, stubborn is nice, but Ogryns are Ld6, 7 with a bone'ead (According to leaked summary sheet). Kinda defeats the purpose of Stubborn.

At 35pts, expect them to be seen about as often as they are now (I.E never) unless they get another ability we haven't heard about yet.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:Now if only I could get my little flag thingy changed too.

You'd have actually be in Australia first, not just wishing you were to further imitate me.

Mate, I'm Australian and in Australia... I have no idea why I've got that bloody seppo flag. It annoys me no end.

Vaktathi wrote:Yes, stubborn is nice, but Ogryns are Ld6, 7 with a bone'ead (According to leaked summary sheet). Kinda defeats the purpose of Stubborn.

Commissars are LD9 though, and there was a rumor of furious charge too. Priest might bring something to that too. Ripper guns are S5 Assault 3.

At a worse ballistic skill, worse side armor (only better in front), carrying far worse troops that hit like wet noodles and die even faster, with no side hatches (extremely crucial), no ability to take AP2/Anti-tank weapons, and who the feth ever uses the Amphibious ability?

Yes, the troops are weaker. Which is why you get to hold twice as many. Also the top hatch makes up for the lack of exit points. It means the squad gets to contribute something while they sit in their wet paper bag, unlike the razorback.

focusedfire wrote:Just trying to make the point that we don't know the rules yet. So don't get storms=bad stuck in the head. Keep an open mind until you see for yourself if they contain massive amounts of suckage.

You're right, we don't know the rules yet. And along with that, we don't know the points yet. I'll keep an open mind until I see a confirmation on points. My argument is based on the conjecture that Storms are 16 points (which, I still don't know where that number is from).

focusedfire wrote:Actually, you've made your mind up that they are useless before even seening the codex . I'm not saying that they are 16pts. just that they would still be very useful at that price. You guys are the only ones I think that would complain about a squad like this. A squad armed with ap3 weapons, able to take 2 meltas or flamers for 6pt/ea, that has a re-rollable deepstrike, infiltrate, better armour than the rest of their army, possible gauranteed first turn deepstrike from reserves, and has extra special orders. OMFG, thats so overpriced.(Thats sarcasm for you blokes that don't get it)

Yes, yes it would be overpriced. #1 - Why do you deep strike? Not to kill marines - to kill armor. So, frankly, those AP3 Hellguns are kinda wasted on a task like that. Do they and the carapace armor provide better survivability? Marginally - but if you're deep striking, you're probably getting assaulted either the next round or round after that (if you survive the incoming fire). And carapace and hellguns won't help you much there against marines. Against someone else? Marginally. #2 - What would this cost? Well, let's start with 160 points for the base squad. Add another 20 for melta guns (as has just been suggested). Compare this to a 6-man SWS that has been suggested - even if they're only able to run 2 melta guns, these guys are probably going to be half as cheap. So they get killed next round? If they plugged their tank like they were supposed to, fine! They were expendable.

focusedfire wrote:Foil brought up the point of fire warriors. Funny. If I took the 12pt/ea ethereal retinue and gave them the grenades that the storms get for free the they are 16 pts each. A deepstriked squad of storms would annihalate the Ethereal and his retinue, head to head.

Now that's just comparing apples to oranges. I'm not going to argue about that.

Platuan4th is right, though. Mech Guard with cheap troops in Chimeras and armor is going to be where it's at.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I play mech guard armies regularly (they're popular in my area for some reason) and I really don't see the chimeras as a moving transport.

That's actually sort of the problem, though. 5th edition missions are based on two things: getting troops units onto objectives, and not losing units. If a unit can't help with either of those, it had better supply some pretty serious fire power to justify itself.

The fact that the Chimera isn't used as a transport isn't a feature, it's flaw.

More often then not they're firing the big guns. It's not like the troops need to be closer to the enemy until the final turns of the game.

Unless they're a flamer command squad, a storm trooper squad, a squad trying to take the enemies base objective, or really just any unit trying claim any objective. If you're saying that at 55pts the chimera would be a great addition to 4th edition static shooting armies, I'd heartily agree. This is a brave new world, and I'd like a transport that can actually hold up a little bit, or be so cheap I can have some redundancy.

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:
Mate, I'm Australian and in Australia... I have no idea why I've got that bloody seppo flag. It annoys me no end.

Hey, apparently if I post from my Blackberry I'm Canadian. Not bad, eh?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Shuma: You're aware that Bolter Marines in front of a Chimera can see and shoot at the sliver of the side, just giving up the 4+ for shooting at a non-primary facing, right?

Almost completely wrong. You can only do that if the facing you are in is completely obscured but you can see a facing that isn't, and the save is 3+.

Some more stuff:

Warseer's boogle wrote:
Catachan Devil Gunnery Sgt Harker - he's not a tank commander, he's definately a homage to Gunnery Sgt Hartman.
Knight Commander Pask of Cadia - no info about him rules wise, but he is mentioned as a new character in the blurb ('the return of old characters such as captain Chenkov and Al'rahem and some new characters such as Knight Commander Pask of Cadia and Catachan Devil Gunnery Sgt Harker'.

Yarrick - Iron Will - grants Eternal Warrior and a 'get up' save for his last wound, and his force field makes the enemy re-roll to wound rolls
Creed - in addition to his already known rules, he allows 1 unit to gain the scout USR

Thoughts are that KC Pask is the rumored tank commander upgrade, and that he didn't get a stat line in the summary b/c he doesn't survive if his tank is wrecked. Sounds like a BS 4 Vanquisher will be a fairly common sight in a couple months.

BoxANT wrote:Mandatory 10man Vet squads, oh well, I think we saw that one coming, it was too good not to nerf :(

I don't know if we saw the mandatory 10-man part, but the nerfbat had been sighted shortly after it was confirmed that IG were the next codex out.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Yes, the troops are weaker. Which is why you get to hold twice as many.

those 10 guardsmen have nowhere near the life expectancy, firepower, or utility of 5 or 6 Space Marines. Stop trying to make it sound like the larger model count makes all the difference in the world. It would if we were talking about roughly equal troops but we aren't.

Also the top hatch makes up for the lack of exit points. It means the squad gets to contribute something while they sit in their wet paper bag, unlike the razorback.

It also makes it Open Topped, meaning return fire and CC attacks make it much easier to kill, and firing one extra weapon (and no heavy if it moved) and some additional lasguns *does not* make up for much, especially nowhere near the lack of a side hatch.

Lacking the side hatches of the Rhino, Razorback, Land Raider and Devilfish, it means that when disembarking they generally have to show the weakest armor on the vehicle (AV10) of some facing, where most other armies don't have this disadvantage or their transports are mounted on flying bases allowing them shots to be placed through the vehicles space underneath it allowing the weak armor to remain hidden. I cannot stress enough how big of a problem that is.

Honestly, the Chimera as a total package is rather poor. It hasn't been rethought since it's inception in 93/94.

Raxmei wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Shuma: You're aware that Bolter Marines in front of a Chimera can see and shoot at the sliver of the side, just giving up the 4+ for shooting at a non-primary facing, right?

Almost completely wrong. You can only do that if the facing you are in is completely obscured but you can see a facing that isn't, and the save is 3+.

Thats what I thought. I'm glad someone answered my question (albeit indirectly). That had me worried.

ubermosher wrote:

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote:
Mate, I'm Australian and in Australia... I have no idea why I've got that bloody seppo flag. It annoys me no end.

Hey, apparently if I post from my Blackberry I'm Canadian. Not bad, eh?

Ha ha! I did notice you had a Canadian flag before. But I'm on a computer with a landline, although it is a ADSL2 broadband connection - there is no normal telephone line. And plenty of "other sites" recognise my IP as Australian... I get all sorts of ads with scantily clad women who clearly look American but supposedly are all "in my area", listing a suburb waaaaay over the other side of the city. And they're all in that same remote suburb too!

ShumaGorath wrote:

At a worse ballistic skill, worse side armor (only better in front), carrying far worse troops that hit like wet noodles and die even faster, with no side hatches (extremely crucial), no ability to take AP2/Anti-tank weapons, and who the feth ever uses the Amphibious ability?

Yes, the troops are weaker. Which is why you get to hold twice as many. Also the top hatch makes up for the lack of exit points. It means the squad gets to contribute something while they sit in their wet paper bag, unlike the razorback.

And the guardsmen are less than half as durable. Look, I think that the line of argument needs to be focused on the chimeras ability to allow a squad to shoot from within. If the five weapon port is true, than that's encouraging. Maybe in the new codex there is enough synergy built in that the price tag makes sense. We don't know that. Until we find that out, we're left with a tank that is a mediocre fire support vehicle and a lousy transport, yet it's priced like a mediocre fighting transport.

My thinking is thus: based on 35 pt rhinos, a chimera with no guns should run about the same. Higher front armor but lower side armor nearly cancel out, the lack of side hatches hurts, but when spammed a wall of AV12 is a bit intimidating. As a pure fire support Vehicle, with no transport capacity, a chimera would probably run around 45pts, maybe 50, assuming it didn't take heavy support slots. It's inability to take a decent weapon (even an autocannon would be aces), it's low BS, no twinlinking, and short range make it an annoyance at best. Combining the two might justify a 55pt price tag, but only if you think IG don't deserve a decent cheap transport. Essentially, by making the basic transport also a light tank, you're denying the IG the ability to have what most other races have, which is access to a transport that's either cheap or durable.

I don't doubt that we'll see plenty of chimeras at 55pts, if that includes ML and HB. We just won't see them actually transporting units very often.

@ShumaGorath: have you actually played with chimeras? I"m curious if you've had experience playing with them and the IG. I play mech IG, Mech marines, and Mech Eldar, and I've found that the IG's being forced to pay a premium for fire power is a bit of a hindrance. Ask 100 IG players, I bet 75% would buy 35pt rhinos for their squads instead of chimeras.

ubermosher wrote:Some more stuff:

Warseer's boogle wrote:
Catachan Devil Gunnery Sgt Harker - he's not a tank commander, he's definately a homage to Gunnery Sgt Hartman.
Knight Commander Pask of Cadia - no info about him rules wise, but he is mentioned as a new character in the blurb ('the return of old characters such as captain Chenkov and Al'rahem and some new characters such as Knight Commander Pask of Cadia and Catachan Devil Gunnery Sgt Harker'.

Yarrick - Iron Will - grants Eternal Warrior and a 'get up' save for his last wound, and his force field makes the enemy re-roll to wound rolls
Creed - in addition to his already known rules, he allows 1 unit to gain the scout USR

Thoughts are that KC Pask is the rumored tank commander upgrade, and that he didn't get a stat line in the summary b/c he doesn't survive if his tank is wrecked. Sounds like a BS 4 Vanquisher will be a fairly common sight in a couple months.

Harker had better come with those extra salty lines, otherwise he isn't a good Hartman homage.

Good to see that Yarrick gets his good old "not quite dead yet" thing again, it made him so characteristic.

Hold on, just thought about something. Would you be able to attach a priest and a commisar to a sqaud of ogryn? Nope the points costs vs effect still do not balance out.

So what happens when an enemy unit that can re-roll to wound rolls wounds Yarrick?

GW creating rules arguments since 1983

Polonius wrote:@ShumaGorath: have you actually played with chimeras? I"m curious if you've had experience playing with them and the IG. I play mech IG, Mech marines, and Mech Eldar, and I've found that the IG's being forced to pay a premium for fire power is a bit of a hindrance. Ask 100 IG players, I bet 75% would buy 35pt rhinos for their squads instead of chimeras.

Exactly the reason Guard players take Inducted Stormtroopers in Rhinos.

Yes, yes it would be overpriced. #1 - Why do you deep strike? Not to kill marines - to kill armor

Or to contest an objective. Or to shoot the crap out of the 5 man combat squad with missile launcher that is the only unit they've left holding their objective whilst the rest if your army holds yours. Or for any specific scenario reasons, say in a forthcoming supplement for the game. It's almost like tehy might think of these things when they write the rules.

... hmm... then again....

The Yarrick last W thing sounds right, he has a rule like that anyway. Forcefield sounds familiar as well. And yes, Creed does grant scout to a unit, think it can even apply to a vehicle, maybe even a squadron.
Think Valks come with scout and DS option as well.

Still another page or so and this too will be the end of the world as well no doubt.

Polonius wrote:@ShumaGorath: have you actually played with chimeras? I"m curious if you've had experience playing with them and the IG. I play mech IG, Mech marines, and Mech Eldar, and I've found that the IG's being forced to pay a premium for fire power is a bit of a hindrance. Ask 100 IG players, I bet 75% would buy 35pt rhinos for their squads instead of chimeras.

Actually yeah, the player I play most regularly is tau. Immediately following that its IG. Then IG/marines (he has both). Then Tau/nids/ig (he has all three). Then templar/orks. Finally Dark angels. After that its drifted out of the direct group of friends and is just up to whoever is at the store. The methodology by which my friend plays his IG tank wall (as a wall of tanks) essentially removes the possibility of a side armor hit. It's almost impossible to line up a side shot from any angle at all. Rear is even less possible.

I myself play a marine force with a reliance on mech (predator, two rhinos, razorback, 3 dreads, and a drop pod in my force at the moment). Both tau forces I regularly face go mech about half the time. The DA player throws land raiders at me like they grow on trees. I have experience with mech armies. Considerably more so then a few other army archtypes. I would agree that the chimera is a somewhat poor transport tank (though not at 55), but I don't believe that the hatch issue is an issue at all considering how mech IG hold objective (by not getting out of the tank).

I also find that statistic seriously suspect. Why would guard players want a very easily killed 35 point transport with no weapons to deliver their easily killed 10 man guardsman squads with low leadership? Doesn't your unit attempting to hold down an objective want some method of defending itself?

reds8n wrote:And yes, Creed does grant scout to a unit, think it can even apply to a vehicle, maybe even a squadron.

If true, I may bring Creed occasionally to Scout(or Outflank, depending on the wording[Grants to on table or grants, period]) a Squadron of Russes.

foil7102 wrote:So what happens when an enemy unit that can re-roll to wound rolls wounds Yarrick?

GW creating rules arguments since 1983

Roll to wound, and then regardless of the result roll again and use the second result.

Platuan4th wrote:

reds8n wrote:And yes, Creed does grant scout to a unit, think it can even apply to a vehicle, maybe even a squadron.

If true, I may bring Creed occasionally to Scout(or Outflank, depending on the wording[Grants to on table or grants, period]) a Squadron of Russes.

for units the reroll wounds.

reroll attacks that wound yarricks rule
reroll attacks that don't wound other players rule.

stop
as no dice can be rerolled more then once(page 2).

reds8n wrote:Still another page or so and this too will be the end of the world as well no doubt.

If you don't like posting here, then stop posting here. It's not like we're holding a gun to your head. Going on about it and Dakka's 'bad rep' doesn't help anyone or add to anything, and actually drags the thread down further.

drags the thread down further

You are funny.

It's certain posters dragging down every thread is the "problem".

Still, I'll leave you and your high horse to wallow further.

"bye".

I'm going to come back in here...

It seems the people that think guard are going to be terrible are getting loud again. Its not right to lump anyone in a 'totally dissapointed' or 'totally pleased' camp, unless they identify themselves as such. i don't think John or HBMC have done so... but some of their concerns are making me feel very disagree-y.

On chimeras... before the argument even gets started it needs to get squashed. You just can't compare a unit in one army to a unit in another. There is far too much modularity in the respective codexes. But after saying that, I'm going to allow myself to get drawn into the razorback comparison.

two things are getting massively downplayed. One, front armor 12. I know the sides are 10, put a russ next to it and screen that side from LOS, use your generalship to mitigate this weakness. Two, strength 6 main weapon. can penetrate armor 11, twice as good at penetrating armor 10, instant kills heavy weapons teams.

Two BS3 weapons versus one twin linked BS4 weapon are somewhat similar. Mathematically speaking, the two bs3 weapons hit more often by about .334, having shot a million times in a row that might be noticeable. Also 6 shots has more potential for damage. they average a number of hits that are very similar to the twin linked bolter, but as both can drop down to zero hits, only the chimera can exceed three hits. this will happen in games. Crew shaken effects both guns equally, but weapon destroyed diminishes the razorback firepower completely. The razorback gains a shooting advantage while on the move, but not really a large advantage, especially versus T4+ and vehicles.

The chimera is used in a different role than a razorback. Chimeras are safe places for command squads to deploy and issue orders, their side armor will be more protected by hanging back and using infantry models and other vehicles to control angles of possible shots and available frontages. if someones is in your massive side arc, but has no LOS to the arc because of a russ blocking his way, then he has to shoot at 12 front armor AND give you a 3+ cover save. Just use your generalship.

Worth 55 points to me.

As far as the other units revealing a little bit more of their weaknesses...

All i want is a guard book that has one or two tourney builds that will have people crying for a nerfing or banning of units, and then 5 or 6 tier 2-3 builds that are fun when playing at home or in a pick-up game. i can already tell you i've got a couple of each picked out, in broad strokes mind you (i don't know any points costs)

1-2 manticores 3-6 russes, hq command with sprinkled advisors, 2-3 infantry platoons, command squads in chimeras, spamming bladestorm with plasma guns and taking 2+ cover saves. Really, its 8+ pie plates a turn (at LEAST double what the worst iron warriors army could do at the height of their reign of terror) 2+ cover save infantry squads that are shooting way too much plasma when you get close. Heavy weapons chattering off of 3-4 chimeras and some amount of heavy sentinels. you can kill them if you want to divert your tank kill over to them, thats fine.

for fun lists...

1000 points in valks/vendettas, 750 in storm troopers/command squad

Who knows exactly what this will do, but i bet the word 'fun' will be an appropriate adjective.

penal legionarres/ogryns/rough riders

warrior weapons round two. Could be a fun change of pace.

6x40 infantry platoons

As far as an army that consists entirely of troops, this could easily rival the horde of boys for almost competitive. Very flavorful, see how many mortars can we fit into this one this time around. if the mortar units can form up, how many mortars can we get into a single unit to pound something out of los into oblivion. or we could add a big psyker coven to strip someones LD then drop 3-6 mortars in their kitchen. that would be a great one-two combo to completley freeze a high points cost unit that isn't fearless.

min troops platoons all in chimeras 3x hellhounds full mech

yet another spam army, similar to the armor 12 flood of the valkyrie spam list. Wouldn't be terrible, think of 3x melta special weapon squads riding in chimeras utilizing the 5 may shoot fire point.



i could go on like this, but in case anyone is still reading at this point, this book appears to me to be like the space marine and ork codexes. One or more power builds, but a massive amount of variations in casual list building, some of those casual lists can be rogue enough to actually show in a tourney.

just wanted to throw this out there as an aside after the combo unit revalation. It appears as though you could combine the lieutenant of a platoon with another unit, think of this trick. Buy him a power fist and any other model that might be able to buy a power fist. buy a medic, combine with 20 conscripts, make sure you have a commissar.... Now we have 25 stubborn models with fnp (maybe) with a floating power fist.

How about 2+ cover save FNP infantry squads, that sounds pretty good for a scoring unit right?

Looking forward to seeing what combinations will be legal and what rules medics and command squads have....

Anyway, continue watching the sky (to make sure its not falling)

I have been discussing the rumours you toolbox. In fact, I've been quite positive. I said only a page or so ago that I'm looking forward to the Codex.

Learn to fething read.

Great - now I have to go to Warseer to see if Reds8n's going to clarify anything else.

Have you heard anything about interconnectability with allies?

If Valks arent assigned transport vehicles might be a great delivery system for melta-armed sisters.

foil7102 wrote:Hold on, just thought about something. Would you be able to attach a priest and a commisar to a sqaud of ogryn? Nope the points costs vs effect still do not balance out.

Why cant you attach both? What effect are you looking for that an unknown points cost isnt worth? Its a bloodcrusher that gives up a power weapon and armor for an extra wound and a decent gun and is 5 points cheaper.

I suspect it'll be a matter of adding commissars to the Ogryn to get power weapon/fist access. And get around the Ld6 problem. Course if theyre independant characters, not upgrades, they might get singled out and snuffed, then the Ogryns morale-rolled during the next assault phase.

But that's just speculation, of course.

The discussion on the Chimera's values have been discussed to death. I always field a good number and even at their current value they make their points back, which is all that really matters. If you can't close the deal with them, you're doing something wrong. Rather than looking at how well they compare to another army look at how it can supplement your forces. In my army it works.

It works for me now, so if its made cheaper it can only be a good thing.

I'm not going to be surprised if chimeras include some additional equipment that isn't on there standard now, more than just a searchlight, I'd bet.

Another reason Chimeras are now better than Rhinos or Razorbacks, your commanders can issues orders out from a chimera but not a rhino or razorback. Probably not out of a Valkyrie either.

aka_mythos wrote:Probably not out of a Valkyrie either.

I just had the image in my mind of a Commander yelling out a valk window while its flying around and the guardsmen in the area going, wtf did he say?

Ivan wrote:Course if theyre independant characters, not upgrades, they might get singled out and snuffed, then the Ogryns morale-rolled during the next assault phase.

I thought commissars and priests were squad upgrades now.

Gestalt wrote:

Ivan wrote:Course if theyre independant characters, not upgrades, they might get singled out and snuffed, then the Ogryns morale-rolled during the next assault phase.

I thought commissars and priests were squad upgrades now.

Commissars & Priests have different weapons and by my understanding can be picked out in combat. Orgyns will lose combat on wounds against high save units and be cut down as they flee. Did someone say these jokes are 35 points each? How on earth are they equal to a fully equipped Imperial Guard squad for two of them?

I see merging squads is the solution to the KP issue, it seems that I wasn't too far off: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/224832.page

"I've got a bad feeling about this" - Han Solo

George Spiggott wrote:

I see merging squads is the solution to the KP issue, it seems that I wasn't too far off: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/224832.page

Wait, did you just pat yourself on the back?

On topic though, I am looking forward to this codex. A lot.

And I am one of those fools that will try to make Stormtroopers work.

I have quite a few of them, of almost all model types...

Alpharius wrote:Wait, did you just pat yourself on the back?

Shot myself in the foot more like...

Commissars & Priests have different weapons and by my understanding can be picked out in combat.

they are not independent characters, so why would you be able to pick them out in CC ? you would just have to roll their saves seperately because of the different weapon load out.

If they arent IC how would they be picked out? Yes the ogryns would lose combat but they wont flee with stubborn and a commissar or officer withing 12". Its harder to kill ogryns than it is to kill equal points of guardsmen for a tar pit, even more so without running.

LordClammy wrote:

Commissars & Priests have different weapons and by my understanding can be picked out in combat.

they are not independent characters, so why would you be able to pick them out in CC ? you would just have to roll their saves seperately because of the different weapon load out.

If this is the case, I wonder what kind of upgrades you can give Ogryns - they could wind up being IG's Nob Bikers.

Alpharius wrote:And I am one of those fools that will try to make Stormtroopers work.

I have quite a few of them, of almost all model types...

As do I. Six full squads of Kasrkin. But I'm not going to pay 16 points each for them. They'll stay IST's, mounted in the Valks I've always wanted, until the day GW comes for my Daemonhunters Codex.

I think Ogryn are going to be pretty good in the new codex. With T 5, at least they're not going to be torn apart by Powerfists, and it's possible that Bone 'Eads and/or Nork Dedogg will let you have some Power Weapons/Fists.

I'm still holding out hope that the unit has Rending in CC.

Still, I'm just happy that a Tactical squad won't be able to kill half of the squad with Rapid-Fire.

So, once again it appears that Dakka's insistence on saying things that are remotely negative has once again gotten us in trouble.

I think we're all grateful for the rumours, and most of us are excited about the new book, but this is dakka, man. We're not afraid to call a spade a shovel. You tell us something like "Stormtroopers are 16pts a piece, but trust me, they're awesome"... we're all going to say "they had better have some amazing rules for that cost." It's not panic, it's just some valid discussion.

As for the Chimera thing, I thought about it and it's probably not a bad buy at 55pts, although Shep came perilously close to telling us all the "use tactics", which was amusing. I think that in practice the side armor 10 is a pretty big deal, but the front armor 12 is an equally big deal, so maybe it's a wash, I dunno.

H.B.M.C. wrote:As do I. Six full squads of Kasrkin. But I'm not going to pay 16 points each for them. They'll stay IST's, mounted in the Valks I've always wanted, until the day GW comes for my Daemonhunters Codex.

Ooh. Now that brings up an interesting question...In Codex: SM we get that Vulkan's power also works on things like Sisters with flamers and meltas...I wonder if allied ISTs (or other allied troops) will be able to reap the benefits of Orders.

As for the Chimera thing, I thought about it and it's probably not a bad buy at 55pts, although Shep came perilously close to telling us all the "use tactics", which was amusing. I think that in practice the side armor 10 is a pretty big deal, but the front armor 12 is an equally big deal, so maybe it's a wash, I dunno.

SA 12 in the hands of a good player isn't much of a detriment. FA 11 is never good anywhere, and no amount of good generalship can make those numbers better.

"Use tactics" is actually a valid counterpoint to side armor 10 woes. There are many ways to avoid a side armor hit. Especially with a tank that is taken in boatloads.

Drop troops rarely care about the 1 point difference in side armor when they are putting melta guns into you.

Hot off of Warseer:

Warseer wrote:Brought to my local hobby forum by “Glandalf Sama”, extracted from Terrasomnia, written by “Gorko” who have read the codex or have it now, you can consider this reliable:


Fast Attack:


- Fast Tanks Squadron:

- You may choose any of the following tanks in a 1-3 tank squadron.

Hellhound: 130 pts. Tank, fast. You can change the heavy bolter by a flamer for free or by a multi-melta by 15 pts. Extra armour 15 pts, searchlight 1 pts, heavy stubborn 10 pts, hunter-killer missile 10 pts, dozer blade 10 pts.
Banewolf: 130 pts. Tank, fast. You can change the heavy bolter by a flamer for free or by a multi-melta by 15 pts. Extra armour 15 pts, searchlight 1 pts, heavy stubborn 10 pts, hunter-killer missile 10 pts, dozer blade 10 pts.
Devil Dog: 120 pts. Tank, fast. You can change the heavy bolter by a flamer for free or by a multi-melta by 15 pts. Extra armour 15 pts, searchlight 1 pts, heavy stubborn 10 pts, hunter-killer missile 10 pts, dozer blade 10 pts.

The entire squadron can buy smoke launchers for 5 pts/mini or camo-netting for 20 pts/mini.

- Sentinel Squadron:

Scout Sentinel: 35 pts, open-topped, scouts, move through cover, multilaser. Auto-cannon 5 pts, heavy flamer 5 pts, missile launcher 10 pts, laser cannon 15 pts. Searchlight 1 pt, hunter-killer missile 10 pts, the entire squadron can buy smoke launcher for 5 pts/mini and/or camo-netting for 10 pts / mini.

- Valkirye: 100 pts.. Armour: 12-12-10

Skimmer, fast, scout, may deep strike
Equipment and weapons: extra armour, searchlight, 2 hellstrike missiles, multilaser
Options: change multilaser to laser-cannon +15 pts, change hellstrike missile for 2 multiple rockets pods for +30 pts, heavy bolters for +10 pts.
Can be bought in a 1-3 squadron.
Transport 12 models, they have the “grav chute insertion” (deep strike from the valk)


- Vendetta: 130 pts.. Armour: 12-12-10

Skimmer, fast, scout, may deep strike
Equipment and weapons: extra armour, searchlight, 3 twin-linked las-cannons
Options: change multilaser to laser-cannon +15 pts, change 2 las-cannon for 2 hellfury missiles for free, heavy bolters for +10 pts.
Can be bought in a 1-3 squadron.
Transport 12 models, they have the “grav chute insertion” (deep strike from the valk)

Heavy Support:


Lemas russ scuadron
Composition:vehicle scuadron composed of 1-3 leman russ or leman russ demolishers in any combination.

Leman Russ Battle Tank. 150 pts Hull Heavy Bolter. May change it for a lascannon for 15 pts, may have sponsons with: heavy bolters 20 pts, multi-melta 30 pts, plasma cannons 40 pts. LR may have Heavy stubborn for 10 pts, dozer blade 10 pts, h-k missile 10 pts, extra armour 15 pts. Entire squadron with camo-netting for 20 pts/model. One of the squadron tanks can be the squadron leader for 50 pts.

Same options for the next tanks:

Leman Russ Exterminator: 150 pts.
Leman Russ Vanquiser: 155 pts.
Leman Russ Eradicator: 160 pts.
Leman Russ Demolisher: 165 pts.
Leman Russ Punisher: 180 pts.
Leman Russ Executioner: 190 pts.

Artillery, 1-3 squadrons. Same options as the LR’s. Can be topped for 15 pts / model, the camo-netting cost 30 pts /model.

Basilisk: 125 pts.
Medusa: 135 pts. Can buy siege bombs for 5 pts.
Colossus: 140 pts.
Griffon: 75 pts.
Hydra: 75 pts. Camo-netting cost 20 pts for it.

Next can NOT be bought in a squadron.

Manticore: 160 pts.
Deathstrike: 160 pts.

Also - check Col. Gravis' blog here for more info: http://colgravis.blogspot.com/

@George - You may not have to ebay your army, now!

I'm dismayed to see a lack of track guards here. That and I'm interested to find out more about upgrading one squadron tank to be the Squadron Leader...

Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar wrote: I get all sorts of ads with scantily clad women who clearly look American but supposedly are all "in my area", listing a suburb waaaaay over the other side of the city. And they're all in that same remote suburb too!

hmm, i'm guessing (certainly not from personal experience, heavens no!) that those sites are not rated E for Everyone.

The punisher looks to be a little pricey. 75 point Hydras and griffins though...

Hellhound up to 130 points with a 12" range? Out of the list that one comes!

Commisar 35 points??

MinMax wrote:I think Ogryn are going to be pretty good in the new codex. With T 5, at least they're not going to be torn apart by Powerfists, and it's possible that Bone 'Eads and/or Nork Dedogg will let you have some Power Weapons/Fists.

Could Badvoc finally be getting some love?

Death By Monkeys wrote:I'm dismayed to see a lack of track guards here. That and I'm interested to find out more about upgrading one squadron tank to be the Squadron Leader...

Maybe, just maybe they're standard equipment.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:As do I. Six full squads of Kasrkin. But I'm not going to pay 16 points each for them. They'll stay IST's, mounted in the Valks I've always wanted, until the day GW comes for my Daemonhunters Codex.

Ooh. Now that brings up an interesting question...In Codex: SM we get that Vulkan's power also works on things like Sisters with flamers and meltas...I wonder if allied ISTs (or other allied troops) will be able to reap the benefits of Orders.

What orders could stormtroopers benefit all that much from. They don't have "lasguns" so the "Front Row! Back Row!" is probably out. Down! would be a waste because thats a turn of non-shooting. Move! Move! Move! will see only limited use with most players mounting them in transports to protect the gooey liquid cores. And Bring it Down! would be a waste cause all those S3 AP3 shots are going to bounce off every vehicle.

Hmmm, tanks seem a little point heavy imo (especially the hellhound).

Sentinels are still expensive :( I was really hoping for 25point sentinels. At 35points for a multilaser sentinel, you are just better off taking a Chimera imo.

I'm happy to see that you can merge squads in whatever way you want, and it's not "50 man blob or nothing".
I pretty much expected vets to be 10 man only. If they are their own troops choice does this mean they will not get to use orders? Or could the command squad still order them?
Does the "double shoot" order only apply to lasguns, or does it work on all rapid fire weapons? I've heard both floating around.
Commissars were rumored to be "almost half" as expensive as they used to be, so I would bet 25 points not 35. Has there been any new rumor otherwise?

Yeh got posted further up, but here it is again: http://colgravis.blogspot.com/

Demolishers and Hellhounds and Stormtroopers all got a lot more expensive - there goes my dreams of having my IG army largely based on them be competitive.

On the other hand, my 3000 point Guard army will be 5000 points in the new codex.



Vs. the Hellhound, the Valkyrie has better armour, skims, deep strikes, includes free Extra Armour, has similar power in weaponry, transports 12 models AND scouts for 30 less points.

Pushing the new kit much?

Dexy wrote:Yeh got posted further up, but here it is again: http://colgravis.blogspot.com/

Veterans can take Carapace armor... In other words: Grenadiers. Up to 6 squads I assume, since Veterans are rumored to be troops.

Nice.

If they really wanted to push the new Valkyrie kit, the first one would be free...

Pushing the new kit much?

Don't bring that into this... Please... I can only argue with so many people.

Demolishers and Hellhounds and Stormtroopers all got a lot more expensive

Demolishers aren't much different. Hellhounds a bit more pricey, it's all in how you look at the range vs fast vehicle tradeoff. Stormtroopers are much different though, you probably wouldn't want to to make an army out of a fast strike suicide squad anyway.

Medics now give the unit the Feel No Pain USR.

Medic on command squad, merge command with infantry/hvy squads. Fun.
If only there was a way to get a medic with the ogryns.

Hellhound: 130 pts.

Banewolf: 130 pts.

Devil Dog: 120 pts

Them's is expensive! I shall now call them the Nerfhound, Pointless Wolf and Redundant Dog.

Leman Russ Vanquiser: 155 pts.

155 points or 170 with Lascannon... and it can't fire regular shells.

Leman Russ Executioner: 190 pts.

And 230 with full weapon upgrades. Doesn't have AV14 all round and can't carry troops. And is BS3. Yeah... so not worth it.

I'm happy to see Sentinels come down, but not enough - they need to be 25 w/Multi-Laser - and it is interesting to see Grenade Launchers at 5 points, but there are other odd things.

Why are Missile Launchers 5 points more than Autocannons? We're now in a situation where 1 Autocannon + 1 Lascannon = 30 points and 2 Missile Launchers = 30 points. Having 1 Lascannon and 1 AC is better than 2 MLs by a long shot (AC's are better against AV10-12, equal against AV13, and the Lascannon handles AV14). It's like the old days where 1 Lascannon + 1 HB = 2 MLs, only better for those of us not taking ML's.

The Psychic Chior sounds like a cynical attempt to get us to buy more Sanctioned Psyker models. If they'd been worth a damn in the last Codex they wouldn't have to invent new units just to sell what people didn't buy last time around.

From a GW perspective the price increase on Russes makes sense (and in the case of the stock Russ it's not much of a price increase - 4 whole points to be exact) because the lumbering behemoth rules do allow Russes to actually use their weapons (like in all the artwork) rather than all the crew having to sit around and wait for Pfc. Johnson to fire the Battlecannon.

The others tanks though leave a lot to be desired. The Vanquisher is junk - even at BS4 (with Mr. Mandatory Special Character) - the Executioner is 1-dimensional and overpriced by miles, the Punisher is heavily overpriced for a gun that doesn't even deny Sv6+ models their save and the Eradicator is... well the Eradicator is the new Hellhound I 'spose given that the Nerfhound is (as we all predicted it would be) a compelte waste of time now. This is good in an odd way, as the Eradicator was one of the more redundant tanks in the Codex, but now that no one will bring the overpriced/underpowered Nerfhound, the Eradicator suddenly looks good!

The Camo Netting is interesting, giving tanks a 3+ save in cover. That ought to give Shummy fits. I know it gives me fits as I hate the way cover works in tanks in 5th... although that statement is redundant coming from me as I've hated all of GW's vehicle rules since 3rd. It also means that if you're stupid enough to take a Vanquisher and come up against a Camo-Netting tank horde at a Tourney, your Vanq is going to do even less (at BS3 87.5% of all your shots will do nothing against a tank with a 3+ save, and that's before rolling for penetration).

Valks are oddly overpriced assuming that their rockets are one-shot items. I think they are (can't say for sure), but I don't see them as being worth it. They do have decent armour though. The Vendetta is another needless vehicle (and why bring a Valk when a triple TL-Lascannon vehicle also carries 12 people?).

Does the Valk kit even come with 3 lots of TL-Lascannons? If it doesn't I'd say it was an afterthought GW put in after the kit had been designed. Bad form. Lame and unnecessary.

If the amorphus blob super-platoons are actually done on a unit by unit basis (ie. I join my three AC/Plas Squads together and my 2 LC/Plas squads together) rather than just mushing a whole platoon into a 55-man unit, then the system could work. Also allows you to use orders to cover more area. I kinda like that really because it's a choice, not an either/or (the either/or in this case being "Lose all KP missions" or "Have all your men in a single massive useless unit"). GW, I think, have actually managed to find a middle ground here, something they usually never do. I hope one of them wrote down how they did it so they can find the middle ground more often and give us less mighty pendulum swings (Tyranid Codex I'm looking at you...).

SWS with 3 Demo Charges? Ok, given that it can scatter 9" behind you, I'll say ok on that. Don't really fancy modelling up another 4 Demo-Charge Cadians. The two I've made are cool enough already. Plus I have 6 Cyclops vehicles... what do I need more SWS Demo Charges for? My only hope is that weapon prices remain consistent across the Codex, so a Vet pays the same for his Plasma Gun as a SWS trooper or a platoon trooper. I don't want to see any 10 point Flamers, 15 point Meltaguns and 20 point Plasma Guns in SWS. That would just be silly.

The artillery... what can I say really. Seems the Bassie hasn't changed on iota other than to remove the step of having to buy Indirect Fire (anyone out there ever not buy that?). I still think the Colossus is redundant, I still think the Death Strike has no place in non-Apoc games and I still think that the Hydra is ill-suited to 40K even with a price tag of 75 (isn't it 200 in FW's rules?). I hope to the Emperor that the Hydra's armament is '4 Hydra Autocannons' otherwise I'll be annoyed if all four of those guns equate to a single R72 S7 AP4 Heavy 2 gun. Even two Hydra Autocannons is kinda lame, unless they're twin-linked, which I doubt they are otherwise the summary sheet would have mentioned it (it mentioned it for the Exterminator!). Griffin, ok, nice to have it back. Hope it ignores cover otherwise it's redundant and the Colossus is back to being useful. No Manticores in squadrons - Go go Arbitrary Restrictions! And the Medusa... ok... it's a slightly longer ranged Demolisher with way less armour and it cannot fire indirectly. Why are we bothering? It's not so much redundant as it is just plain bad!

Going back to platoons. Command Section, 2-5 Squads, 0-5 HW squads, 0-3 SWS and Conscripts. Sheesh! Glad to see Remnants gone, but that's a big fething platoon. I'd much prefer Command Section, 2 Infantry Squads and then 0-3 of the following (and it's HW, SWS and Infantry Squads) + 0-1 Conscript Platoon. Commissars are 15 points more than they should be no matter how good they are. 35 points for a Commissar? Give me a break.

Veterans can get Carapace. Wow. Did anyone here use Veterans with Carapace? Oddly cheaper than Deep Striking Stormies with the Doctrine System but did anyone actually do it? No? Didn't think so. The only part people care about with Vets is A). Can they still get 3 Meltaguns for 30 points and B). Do they still have Infiltrate. That's all that matters.

HW Squads at 60 for Mortars... yeah Mortars are worth about 40, so this squad is 20 points more than it should be to start with.

I hope that the Heavy Sentinel's MM is included on the sprue, otherwise it's another Vendetta afterthought idea.

I wonder if RR's are back to being S3 I3, or if they have Furious Charge so they can be killed simultaneously by Marines rather than actually causing damage. RR's are a unit that worked at S5 I5 for a single round. If they're any less powerful than that, they're not worth taking.

And I'm glad that Officers are no longer IC's. That's a nice change. It's one of the mistakes from the Haines Era, so I'm glad to see it gone.

That's all for now...

Asmodai wrote:Vs. the Hellhound, the Valkyrie has better armour, skims, deep strikes, includes free Extra Armour, has similar power in weaponry, transports 12 models AND scouts for 30 less points.

Pushing the new kit much?

Shhh! Don't say that! Every time you insinuate that GW is attempting to use its rules to push new model kits, a Shummy gets its bile!!

Gestalt wrote:

Medics now give the unit the Feel No Pain USR.

Medic on command squad, merge command with infantry/hvy squads. Fun.

This has potential.

For terribleness.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Veterans can get Carapace. Wow. Did anyone here use Veterans with Carapace? Oddly cheaper than Deep Striking Stormies with the Doctrine System but did anyone actually do it? No?

I did. It seems carapace on my command platoon is dead though. :(

And 230 with full weapon upgrades. Doesn't have AV14 all round and can't carry troops. And is BS3. Yeah... so not worth it.

230 with the guns is a bit high, 250 with camo netting. It probably should have been ~215 with the five canons. It would be perfect at that point. I think you seriously underestimate the amount of damage output a 14/13/11 tank with 5 plasma canons can do before it gets shot to death by every gun in the opponants army. Killing an entire space marine squad in one shot or on average rolls nearly an entire termy squad is something that shouldn't be possible from a single unit. Even the demolisher can't pull that off when up close.

It will pay for itself in two rounds of shooting if you pick good targets. It will kill a hive tyrant and guards in one good round. There's nothing it really wouldn't kill in one round of shooting. It's even pretty fantastic against hordes.

I'm happy to see Sentinels come down, but not enough - they need to be 25 w/Multi-Laser - and it is interesting to see Grenade Launchers at 5 points, but there are other odd things.

25 point sentinels with multilasers... You have no idea how to create a balanced anything do you? Thats insane.

Them's is expensive! I shall now call them the Nerfhound, Pointless Wolf and Redundant Dog.

I'll wait and see on these. Being fast could be a serious boon, especially in dense terrain. It also means a surviving hound can contest a back field objective with a good chance of survival.

155 points or 170 with Lascannon... and it can't fire regular shells.

Yeah, if it could it would be a five point upgrade to the russ. It's really not that bad. The main gun is pretty effective against the right targets. The big problem is that the vendetta is just that much better at tank hunting. That thing is too damn cheap, I suspect that the nose lascanon is actually an upgrade (the wording is ambiguous). Making it 145.

the Punisher is heavily overpriced for a gun that doesn't even deny Sv6+ models their save

I agree.

The Camo Netting is interesting, giving tanks a 3+ save in cover. That ought to give Shummy fits. I know it gives me fits as I hate the way cover works in tanks in 5th... although that statement is redundant coming from me as I've hated all of GW's vehicle rules since 3rd. It also means that if you're stupid enough to take a Vanquisher and come up against a Camo-Netting tank horde at a Tourney, your Vanq is going to do even less (at BS3 87.5% of all your shots will do nothing against a tank with a 3+ save, and that's before rolling for penetration).

I don't think its that bad. 20 points per vehicle is pretty damn expensive and it's not that hard to deny vehicles cover. The 6+ even on open ground is spiffy though. A plasmatank in a forest with camo netting is going to take a lot of fire before going down.

Does the Valk kit even come with 3 lots of TL-Lascannons? If it doesn't I'd say it was an afterthought GW put in after the kit had been designed. Bad form. Lame and unnecessary.

I would hope so given the kit is designed to make both flyers.

The artillery... what can I say really. Seems the Bassie hasn't changed on iota other than to remove the step of having to buy Indirect Fire (anyone out there ever not buy that?). I still think the Colossus is redundant, I still think the Death Strike has no place in non-Apoc games and I still think that the Hydra is ill-suited to 40K even with a price tag of 75 (isn't it 200 in FW's rules?). I hope to the Emperor that the Hydra's armament is '4 Hydra Autocannons' otherwise I'll be annoyed if all four of those guns equate to a single R72 S7 AP4 Heavy 2 gun. Even two Hydra Autocannons is kinda lame, unless they're twin-linked, which I doubt they are otherwise the summary sheet would have mentioned it (it mentioned it for the Exterminator!). Griffin, ok, nice to have it back. Hope it ignores cover otherwise it's redundant and the Colossus is back to being useful. No Manticores in squadrons - Go go Arbitrary Restrictions! And the Medusa... ok... it's a slightly longer ranged Demolisher with way less armour and it cannot fire indirectly. Why are we bothering? It's not so much redundant as it is just plain bad!

The IG have too many tanks. There's going to be redundancy in roles no matter how its designed.

HW Squads at 60 for Mortars... yeah Mortars are worth about 40, so this squad is 20 points more than it should be to start with.

Yeah, so a heavy weapons team for the same points value of one terminator. No that doesn't add up. Sorry. An amoebad squad of 9 mortars is still ~40 points less than devastators with missile launchers. Sounds pretty good to me.

I hope that the Heavy Sentinel's MM is included on the sprue, otherwise it's another Vendetta afterthought idea.

yeah, that things too cheap. I really do hope its 145 with the three guns, though even then its too cheap. It's like a flying predator with more twin linking that can carry 12 men. Oh and with better side armor.

Shhh! Don't say that! Every time you insinuate that GW is attempting to use its rules to push new model kits, a Shummy gets its bile!!

Only when you say it without anything but mercurial and insubstantial evidence that doesn't even make sense upon inspection. Like you do. Every time.

16 pages and still going. Can't wait for the codex.

At this point, rumors are coming fast enough that we'll probably get a .PDF leak by the weekend. I think I'm going to try and resist making any sweeping judgments until then, but the rumors aren't looking so hot right now.

"Fast" is a nice benefit for the Hellhound, but we're paying 15 points more for the tank, we're losing 12" of weapon range, and XA and Smoke are both more expensive than the used to be. I haven't used Ogryns since they lost CCWs (and even then they were a weak unit.) Stormtroopers haven't been good in a decade. 2x Sentinels are 15 points more expensive than a Chimera, and are less useful.

It's nice to see some things that have sucked since the release of 3rd. Ed (mortars, grenade launchers) are receiving points discounts, but it's hard to justify 60 points for 3 mortars when you can get 3 autocannons for 75 points.

"I'll wait and see on these. Being fast could be a serious boon, especially in dense terrain. It also means a surviving hound can contest a back field objective with a good chance of survival. "


How are you taking these as Troops, Shuma? (Not to mention, vehicles aren't scoring units to begin with.)

Asmodai wrote:"I'll wait and see on these. Being fast could be a serious boon, especially in dense terrain. It also means a surviving hound can contest a back field objective with a good chance of survival. "


How are you taking these as Troops, Shuma? (Not to mention, vehicles aren't scoring units to begin with.)

Units that aren't scoring can contest. So, the Hellhound/Devil Dog/Banewolf and the Valkyrie/Vendetta are going to be useful to contest enemy objectives.

Also, rumour has it that Mechanized Platoons (That is, Platoons wherein each squad has a Chimera) will allow you to attatch a Hellhound to that Platoon. Thus, a Troops Hellhound. Maybe. Some rumours say that vehicles attatched to Platoons will still take up its original choice on the FOC...

Dave47 wrote:"Fast" is a nice benefit for the Hellhound, but we're paying 15 points more for the tank, we're losing 12" of weapon range, and XA and Smoke are both more expensive than the used to be.

True, but the Inferno Cannon probably auto-hits now, and I think it includes Smoke Launchers for free. That's what the rumours seem to indicate... Also, Extra Armour has tripled in cost, just like in the Marine Codex. Although, if you take a squadron of Hellhounds, they get the benefit of Extra Armour for free... this is, of course, tempered by the destruction of the Hellhound on an Immobilized result...

Doesn't the rulebook state that only non vehicle troops can be scoring?

Uriels_Flame wrote:16 pages and still going.

Your point being?

There's new info about Guard, in a thread about Guard, so we're discussing the new info about Guard in the thread about Guard? Is there an issue with this I'm missing?

BYE

MinMax wrote:...this is, of course, tempered by the destruction of the Hellhound on an Immobilized result...

This isn't directed at you as much as the general tone of the forum, but I've seen lots of whining about the negatives of the "Squadron" rule with regards to the damage table and the ability for a single model to destroy the whole squad in HTH. But I've seen almost no comments about the fact that vehicles have to fire at the same target.

The targeting restrictions are probably a bigger deal than the damage table.

Nothing illustrates this like the Hellhound. Against a lot of targets, a single Hellhound hit will kill every model on a 2+. You really don't need multiple Hellhounds to accomplish this goal.

H.B.M.C. wrote:
The artillery... what can I say really. Seems the Bassie hasn't changed on iota other than to remove the step of having to buy Indirect Fire (anyone out there ever not buy that?).

I did regularly, back in 3rd/early 4th (i.e. the last times I played). I tended to play on REALLY small boards (4'x4'), and with the minimum range of the indirect fire, you'd only get 1-2 turns of shooting, and that's if you stuck it all the way in a corner opposite the juicy targets.

I'm trying to figure out how I'm gonna do my WW1 infantry/pie plate horde. I'm thinking lots of veterans and SWS, autocannons, flamers, that artillery advisor, and some sort of artillery squadron (or two). Most of the stuff I'm interested in is inexpensive pointswise....

Dave47 wrote:

MinMax wrote:...this is, of course, tempered by the destruction of the Hellhound on an Immobilized result...

This isn't directed at you as much as the general tone of the forum, but I've seen lots of whining about the negatives of the "Squadron" rule with regards to the damage table and the ability for a single model to destroy the whole squad in HTH. But I've seen almost no comments about the fact that vehicles have to fire at the same target.

The targeting restrictions are probably a bigger deal than the damage table.

Nothing illustrates this like the Hellhound. Against a lot of targets, a single Hellhound hit will kill every model on a 2+. You really don't need multiple Hellhounds to accomplish this goal.

True enough. Although, I think this is a much bigger problem with Leman Russes. I mean, if you're fighting MEQs, one Hellhound isn't gonna do a ton of damage.

Depends on what you're fighting, I guess.

Dave47 wrote:

MinMax wrote:...this is, of course, tempered by the destruction of the Hellhound on an Immobilized result...

This isn't directed at you as much as the general tone of the forum, but I've seen lots of whining about the negatives of the "Squadron" rule with regards to the damage table and the ability for a single model to destroy the whole squad in HTH. But I've seen almost no comments about the fact that vehicles have to fire at the same target.

The targeting restrictions are probably a bigger deal than the damage table.

Nothing illustrates this like the Hellhound. Against a lot of targets, a single Hellhound hit will kill every model on a 2+. You really don't need multiple Hellhounds to accomplish this goal.

I don't see it harming the hellhounds all that much. An Inferno canon does a lot of damage, but not enough to break a squad on its own. Two or more on the other hand will do so nicely and will hammer green tide armies. Do vehicles in squadrons block eachothers line of sight? Russ squadrons on the other hand are going to have to deal with this almost every turn. Hopefully there will be a note about squadrons of heavy vehicles like LRs excluding them from this.

page 64 vehicles in a squadron don't block line of site to each other.

ShumaGorath wrote:
I don't see it harming the hellhounds all that much. An Inferno canon does a lot of damage, but not enough to break a squad on its own.

That depends on the squad. Against Plague Marines? True. Against Dire Avengers, Fire Warriors, Banshees and Scouts? 1 is all you need.

Two or more on the other hand will do so nicely and will hammer green tide armies. Do vehicles in squadrons block eachothers line of sight? Russ squadrons on the other hand are going to have to deal with this almost every turn. Hopefully there will be a note about squadrons of heavy vehicles like LRs excluding them from this.

This is a very interesting point. It's going to be a pain for IG players to deal with (but one I'm willing to accept)

skkipper wrote:page 64 vehicles in a squadron don't block line of site to each other.

Expect tank wall armies to run this one all the way to the bank..

ShumaGorath wrote:

skkipper wrote:page 64 vehicles in a squadron don't block line of site to each other.

Expect tank wall armies to run this one all the way to the bank..

AND HOW!

You know, a lot of people are concerned about the price of Ogryns. I'm wondering - hoping, really - that maybe GW did the silly thing of letting them have different upgrades so as to mess with wound distribution. In that case, not only would they be worth 35 points. Seems to me that they might be a steal at 35 points.

ShumaGorath wrote:Expect tank wall armies to run this one all the way to the bank..

So all leman russ shoot at the same target too then, a waste of tanks.

For all this about squadrons, I cant see anyone using them without screwing themselves with no troops or playing 2500+ games. You might see pairs of MBT in tank heavy armies.

SSSHHH,(Whispering) Keep this on the down low. The Tank squadrons, New superlong range ordinance and the basilisk plus a few other things in this codex IS for Apoc.

All of you complaining about this or that belongs in apoc.. Which book do you use for your army in an apoc game? The Apoc rule book or your Codex? It's both. GW is finally introducing units designed to take advantage of the Apoc game.

IMHO, This Codex is going to be strong in both games.

@Shuma and Shep,
Good explanation of why chimeras why chimeras don't have side doors. Because theres not supposed to be enough room next to it for anyone to stand there.


Questions,

First) Price of vets and do they get infiltrate?

Second)Any clarification on the grav chute rule and whether it will affect when reserves can deepstrike?

Third)What are the rules on the special character thats the Tank General?

Fourth) Command Tank up-grade? Might this have a special ability for the squadron to split its fire?

Fifth) What are the special orders for the Storm troops?

Sixth) Could someone please answer those same Ogryn questions that have been being asked by the same people for months now on this thread and others? Getting tired of reading it.

Will ask other questions later. BTW Points sound about right for Tanks that can move and fire Main Gun and 3 lascannons.

I'm fairly excited to see the final codex on this. Overall, I'm seeing a slight improvement to IG overall in the "power scale", but nothing major.

It certainly appears IG armies in the future will be composed very differently than they are today. I'm curious to see how Chimeras end up being reviewed in the meta-game. Through a 10 point heavy stubber on there and you have the equivalent of a heavy bolter fire support squad for about the same price and AV 12 front.

IG's current AT magic bullet...deep striking vets with melta guns...is gone, with no real good replacement. The storm-trooper option with valkyries exists, but isn't nearly as cost effective. Melee is still out, and the AT tanks don't seem great, either, so is it back to massed lascannons in a gunline? The order to make those guns twin-linked will be very effective in this regard.

My Dark Eldar are happy to see the current rumors, though...a greater focus on armor spam is good for dark lance spam. Lots of troops in cover with heavy weapons are bad.

I'm curious how much the AV12 sentinels will cost. Spamming AV14 will be expensive, but a few AV14s and a bunch of AV12 platforms would be feasible. Looking at the current power builds, it could be pretty interesting. Dual lash focuses its AT in a few obliterators, orks mostly in power claws and lootas....mass fire at those, and then the army may have a bit a freedom.

It will also be interesting to see how these changes affect Demonhunter armies...they can take "Imperial Guard Platoons", and with all the options that are now part of that definition, it could be helpful.

The "TANK!" order seems pretty good. I haven't run any math but 75% to hit, and then str 10 vs vehicles seems like pretty good odds. Throw that on a 3x LC AT squad and they will seriously mess up anything less than AV 14 in cover. Unfortunately taking down those LRs is going to be a lot harder.

Just a heads up but the most recent rumor suggests that you can only combine the basic line squads. the 2-5 choice is the one that is said can combine so unless I missed something you won't be able to combine SWS or Heavy Squads. All in all I'm loving this. 19 points cheaper for my line squads after heavy & special weapons. I'm stoked! I can get 40 guardsmen w/4 ML and 4GL's and 4 Chimeras for 500pts. Thats a nice amount of firepower and a decent start to an army in my opinion.

Why would you bother with Missile Launchers when Autocannons are better and 5 points cheaper.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would you bother with Missile Launchers when Autocannons are better and 5 points cheaper.

BYE

I dunno about better, I think they both have their uses and I think are roughly equal weapons, but when the AC is 5pts cheaper, it becomes a no-brainer.

I foresee a lot of AC/GL guardsmen squads.

The Autocannon is better against AV10, 11 and 12. It is equal vs AV13. Obviously the Autocannon can't do anything to AV14, but given that for every 2 Missile Launchers you bring you can bring 1 AC and 1 LC, the LC covers the AV14 side of things.

And the Heavy Bolter is better vs Infantry than Frag Missiles...

I'll post this question again seperate.

Does the command Tank feature allow for the Squadron to split fire?

(New thought) Will it allow tank to benefit from some type of orders?

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Autocannon is better against AV10, 11 and 12. It is equal vs AV13.

Well, the ML can penetrate AV13, the AC can't, but I'd take the AC for killing AV10-12 vehicles any day of the week over a missile launcher.

And the Heavy Bolter is better vs Infantry than Frag Missiles...

Well, that also depends, massed frag missiles against a disembarking unit are very, very fun that said, against a slightly dispersed footslogging unit, the HB's are generally of course better.

But yeah, at a 5pt discount, the AC is the default choice methinks.

I'll post this question again seperate.

Does the command Tank feature allow for the Squadron to split fire?

(New thought) Will it allow tank to benefit from some type of orders?

Dunno if anything has been released on that yet, hopefully we will get word here soon

Do we know if HW squads are 10man or 6?


And do we know if Infantry Squads can take 2 SW?

Death By Monkeys wrote:You know, a lot of people are concerned about the price of Ogryns. I'm wondering - hoping, really - that maybe GW did the silly thing of letting them have different upgrades so as to mess with wound distribution. In that case, not only would they be worth 35 points. Seems to me that they might be a steal at 35 points.

I actually dropped the 50 odd bucks on three of these today, mostly for somthing different to paint as ogryn are crap, and really like the models. Looking at the models I can see where your idea is probably, and unfortunately, wrong. These are metal. Big, and metal. There has been no rumor about new plastic ogryn (although a five pack for $50usd would be nice even if they were still metal) and I doubt GW is going to make that no-no again. Frakking nobz-mobz...

the thought of 9 griffons with 9 FW heavy mortars pleases me...

I'm not sure why.

I'm looking forward to my overpriced plasma tanks. sure, 2 cost 460+ points but they will be fun to mess around with in friendly games, especially with camo netting. Even now I can hear my friends whimpering about broken spam b.s. when I annihalate entire squads of nobz and terminators with one tank at 36" while is clings to a 3+ save in shelled building. I can hear my brother whine about his plague marines going poof too and I think that's what makes me smile the most.

*edit, grammur

I was really looking forward to adding some fun units like psykers, mortars, commissars, advisors, etc.
My old army under the supposedly confirmed new rules costs more than 250 points more than it used to.

I know what you mean. I was hoping my army would decrease in price as well, but what once was a 2000pt army will now be almost a 2300pt army, mainly due to the increased price in ST's and plasma guns.

Same here, though mine might actually stay within a 10% margin of what it was. The Ogryn and Storm Trooper buffs eradicate any savings I might have gotten from infantry platoons.

And Commissars are still too expensive to take.

After seeing the Chimera price drop I thought my list would have a ton of extra points, ceterus parabus the Chimera change lopped 210pts off my army. Then the increased cost of ST's and weapons is double what the Chimera savings was, along with more expensive PG's, Hellhounds, and Russ tanks. Not that I have a problem with most of the Russ pricing, but the ST's are just gawd awful expensive now.

Vaktathi wrote:I know what you mean. I was hoping my army would decrease in price as well, but what once was a 2000pt army will now be almost a 2300pt army, mainly due to the increased price in ST's and plasma guns.

I don't even have storm troopers, just infantry and leman russes

Did I hear somebody complain about nerfed Imperial Guard Anti Tank firepower because the Veteran Melta drop will no longer be feasible?

It's not as if a certain Leman Russ variant with a 72"(possibly more IIRC) range battle cannon and strength 8 + 2D6 for armor penetration will be making a comeback.

Oh, wait, the Vanquisher is back baby!

The only advantage of a Meltagun is its AP value of 1

Yeah except the vanquisher can no longer fire battle cannon shells, and the vanquisher cannon misses 50% of the time.

Don't forget the Vanquisher can't get around cover by deepstriking to the side either, and will most likely be firing at the front armour, oh and is 3x the cost.

if someone can brave this thread to compile the rumors and sources I'd priomise to give them a free internet cookie...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

155 points or 170 with Lascannon... and it can't fire regular shells.

I am just curious, has is been stated as a fact that it can't fire regular shells? Please note i said fact, i am not looking for rumor or speculation...or a red shirt said. I mean has someone gotten a hold of a copy of the codex and seen in black and white (well gray actually) that is says "May not fire normal shells"?

And i guess my other question would be, why would you add a lascannon to this anyways? If the Vanquisher is only good as anti-armor and you want troop killing capability, then 3 HB is what you want anyways...imo

It's armed with a Vanquisher Cannon unless it has rules that say it can shoot as a Battle Cannon then it can't fire 'normal shells' whatever they may be.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that Shuma works for GW?

I think what GW is doing with this codex is fairly obvious and that is to place emphasis on the most common unit in the IG army, platoons. Infantry are clearly at the center of this codex. With in the IG, these point costs do make sense.

Actually I see some "fair" prices, and some not fair prices.

Fair
Basic infantry
heavy/special weapons
Stock Russ (I would pay the extra points to use all my guns)
Griffon
Bassilisk
chimera

Not Fair
Stormies
Ogryn
commisars
All of the new Russ varients
All of the "hound" tanks
all the rest of the av12 arty tanks


Not Sure
Vendetta/Vulture although why you would ever take a Vulture if the Vendetta also carries troops is beyond me.

1. This sounds to me like Codex: Leman Russ.

Approx 500pts for three tanks, Av14 is so much better with its own company. All you need is a little melta or lascannon on the side, and you are away. With enough Demolishers you might not even need that. GW have painted up a horrendous cookie cutter list here in the fashion of Nidzilla. Expect killer Guard lists to have 6-7 Russ. Other tanks might look good but cannot really compete on the same level and dilute from the wall of Av14 thus weakening the list.

Oh and Lumbering Behemoth really means "three heavy bolters plus a battlecannon turn 1ff", i.e. a boring static army. The turret variants might even proclude using anything else, the heavy 20 gun, gimic though it is tell you you no longer need infantry in your guard list, between that and plasma weaponry and the odd demolisher the Russ becomes a very comfortable one size fits all solution.

2. What to do with the mandatory Troops?

This looks to me the only true variance in the army lies in how to spend the spare points after paying for the Leman Russ spam. People can get creative here.

3. If the combined squads is true one/two special weapons squads plus command squad in a Valkyrie = hot.

Assuming rumours are true. Six or seven melta guns pathing deepstrike is a world of pain for any enemy vehicles, i.e anything not annihilated by the battlecannon and heavy bolters. If they get Tank! to boot....

4. Return of the slowed '16pt rule'.

Sorry to jump in the Stormtrooper pile on but has anyone else noticed this trend? Because spase marienz (Hurr!) are da bomb anything that is designed to cleanly kill one must be more expensive than one. This balance dogma is flatly attested to throught the game. Vespid get Ap3 so they must be worth 16pts as marines die, one point more than a marine marked the flat minimum for Howling Banshees and Fire Dragons too, though at least that waas understandable. So with Ap3 Hellguns it is obvious what price must be set: marienz +1pt for the fail.
I dont think stormtroopers were pointed out as anything else than that. No matter their true value as soon as they got Ap3 capability 16pts+ was inevitable. Morons, utter morons.


I copuld go on about other useless units, but I wont need to even the fairly good ones are going to fall by the wayside in the same way pretty much all Nid perspective was lost once Dakkafex became available. Yes it is nice to see Hydras, squadrons of Hellhounds and Armageddon sentinels that are worth fielding, but all that is for casual gamers and futile all told as the temptation will be there throughout. Russ spam will cause the new IG to fail, this codex might make Dark Angels look well designed. Is this a Jervis cockup, it sounds bad enough?.

Closing this thread due to absurdly long length

Please continue the discussion here:
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