4351
Post by: ubermosher
Compliments of PFC Hudson.
I had a look at the promo material that GW is sending to the stores for IG. Here are some of the highlights that I recall:
Troops:
Frag Grenades are now standard equip for guardsmen.
Confirmed that Infantry is being repackaged in boxes of 10 troopers at $22 / box. Only special weapons (flamer, GL) included. Also for both the Cadians and Catachans it was mentioned that options for creating more 'exotic' troop options such as Penal Legionairres, Conscripts, and Veterans will be included -- perhaps an accessory sprue with addtional heads, etc?
Orders:
Three orders were mentioned: The extra shot with lasguns order, the TANK order, and an order that improves your cover save.
Voxcasters allow a reroll on your leadership check for orders.
Tanks:
At the front of the flyer it was stated that Tanks can be taken in squads of 3, in the summary at the rear it said Leman Russ Battle Tanks can be taken in squadrons of 3, so at least LRBT's can be taken in squadrons of 3.
Lumbering Behemoth rule was confirmed.
Valkyries:
Valkyries can be taken in squadrons of 3 as a single FA choice.
Also infantry can deep strike along the path of the Valk taking a dangerous terrain test.
Chimeras are cheaper and available to all infantry. Mobile command post means that Officers can issue orders while embarked.
Commissars:
still cap the squad leader if he fails a morale check. (they had to keep that, it's too funny to drop)
1748
Post by: Grandmaster
All sound good!
So thats 6 more Russ's and at least 3 Valks! May is going to be a fun month! 
8249
Post by: Hammerziet
Troops:
Frag Grenades are now standard equip for guardsmen.
Confirmed that Infantry is being repackaged in boxes of 10 troopers at $22 / box. Only special weapons (flamer, GL) included. Also for both the Cadians and Catachans it was mentioned that options for creating more 'exotic' troop options such as Penal Legionairres, Conscripts, and Veterans will be included -- perhaps an accessory sprue with addtional heads, etc?
Few questions. When he says about the frag grenades does that mean they are in the 4 points cost of a basic gaurdsman? Also about the repackage is this simply just a 1/2 the stuff 2/3 the cost job? Or is there somthing in it that isn't in the current £18 box (sorry I have no idea what a box costs in the states).
Actually I'm just asking what comes in the current box and whether there is any point in waiting for the £12 box to get some gaurd?
7899
Post by: The Dreadnote
From what I gather it's 1/2 the content, 2/3 the cost. If you want to save money it'd probably be a good idea to buy up 20-man boxes while they're available.
5636
Post by: warpcrafter
Go armored fist! Wall o' tank shock coming right up! Hurr that!
6072
Post by: nieto666
Koolness, good thing im stocking up on guardsmen now. lets see here 20 for $35 or 20 for $44 pretty much a no brainer!!
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Dangerous deep striking along the path of the valk sounds a lot better than a 24" movement and disembarkation.
10193
Post by: Crazy_Carnifex
Tank squadrons sound scary (9 pie plates of doom!!!!)
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
My guess is that the squadrons will have 0-1 limitations. I sincerely hope that they don't allow 9 demolishers in an army.
3934
Post by: grizgrin
Sounds good.
4977
Post by: jp400
So let me get this straight...
Free Frag Nades......... not very excited over this...
Extra Str 3 shot at BS 3........ again not very excited...
Better Ar save...(most likely +1) ....... not very excited over due to the sheer number of weapons now that negate cover saves.
Overall.... Im hopeing for better.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
But you get all 3 at the same time... I think maybe your asking a bit much there.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Sad day. I agree with Shummy.
1870
Post by: Red
all 3 at the same time plus the fact that they are 4pts each what else do you want from a guardsmen IMHO that's awsome
3844
Post by: Dave47
Frag Grenades are now standard equip for guardsmen.
That's unexpected. I figured that was how GW was going to differentiate IG from Space Marines: The marines are the guys with all the free stuff. IG with free grenades makes me strongly suspect that IG tanks are going to come with free smoke and searchlights.
This is actually a pretty useful addition, as Frag Grenades are Str 4 vs. vehicles, so it's no longer possible for a single Sentinel to tie up and slowly anihilate an infantry squad. Has anyone actually confirmed 4 point Guard, or just "cheaper" Guard?
Three orders were mentioned: The extra shot with lasguns order, the TANK order, and an order that improves your cover save.
Whoah, I also would have guessed that Camoline was gone forever. 3+ coversaves for IG are brutal versus other shooty armies.
At the front of the flyer it was stated that Tanks can be taken in squads of 3, in the summary at the rear it said Leman Russ Battle Tanks can be taken in squadrons of 3, so at least LRBT's can be taken in squadrons of 3.
As much as I think the "immobilized=destroyed" rule for squadrons is silly, it's probably going to be kept. They need to do something to help other armies deal with the threat of that many tanks.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
Hrmf. I'm going to be bummed if they don't get the order that allows IG to shoot through their own units without giving opposing models a cover save. I wonder if the "TANK" order will be the "Lumbering Behemoth" rule. Good news, of course, in the confirmation of being able to take LRBTs in squadrons of 3 - I wonder though if this will be 0-1 as rumored or if you'll be able to run a full 9 LRBTs as your heavy, or for that matter if you'll be able to run Leman Russ variants in squadrons. Valks in squadrons of three is also good news. This means I can still run at least two Hellhounds (if not more with Platoon attachments) and still get to run some Valks as well. And as far as "Mobile Command Post" goes - does that infer that orders usually don't work if the commander is inside a different vehicle - say an allied rhino or land raider.
4351
Post by: ubermosher
Dave47 wrote:
That's unexpected. I figured that was how GW was going to differentiate IG from Space Marines: The marines are the guys with all the free stuff. IG with free grenades makes me strongly suspect that IG tanks are going to come with free smoke and searchlights.
The Imperial Armor update shows the Chimera at 55 points, with Mobile Command Vehicle rule, and yes, smoke and searchlight standard.
Dave47 wrote:
This is actually a pretty useful addition, as Frag Grenades are Str 4 vs. vehicles, so it's no longer possible for a single Sentinel to tie up and slowly anihilate an infantry squad. Has anyone actually confirmed 4 point Guard, or just "cheaper" Guard?
Its a pretty wide-spread rumor that a basic infantry squad is 40 points. But then you have to factor the cost of a heavy weapon, special weapon, and now it's looking like a voxcaster will be pretty worthwhile. It'll add up.
Dave47 wrote:Whoah, I also would have guessed that Camoline was gone forever. 3+ coversaves for IG are brutal versus other shooty armies.
I'm wondering if the +1 to cover save will stack with Going to Ground. Plant a couple of 40 pt squads on an objective, and give them a 2+ cover save.
Dave47 wrote:
As much as I think the "immobilized=destroyed" rule for squadrons is silly, it's probably going to be kept. They need to do something to help other armies deal with the threat of that many tanks.
There may be an option for Track Guards to mitigate the immobilized result. We do know that Camo netting will do something. The IA2 update listing for Chimera listed the option for 20 points. Probably gives a cover save to a vehicle until it moves.
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Post by: ubermosher
Death By Monkeys wrote:Hrmf. I'm going to be bummed if they don't get the order that allows IG to shoot through their own units without giving opposing models a cover save. I wonder if the "TANK" order will be the "Lumbering Behemoth" rule. Good news, of course, in the confirmation of being able to take LRBTs in squadrons of 3 - I wonder though if this will be 0-1 as rumored or if you'll be able to run a full 9 LRBTs as your heavy, or for that matter if you'll be able to run Leman Russ variants in squadrons. Valks in squadrons of three is also good news. This means I can still run at least two Hellhounds (if not more with Platoon attachments) and still get to run some Valks as well. And as far as "Mobile Command Post" goes - does that infer that orders usually don't work if the commander is inside a different vehicle - say an allied rhino or land raider.
It's been my understanding from the rumors that Platoon Drill will be a special rule, not an Order.
From what I've seen, "TAAAANK!!!", and yes it's been spelled that way, adds +1 to armor penetration. The most practical application of which is, of course, to glance AV10 with flashlights. 
4351
Post by: ubermosher
jp400 wrote:So let me get this straight...
Free Frag Nades......... not very excited over this...
Extra Str 3 shot at BS 3........ again not very excited...
Better Ar save...(most likely +1) ....... not very excited over due to the sheer number of weapons now that negate cover saves.
Overall.... Im hopeing for better.
As mentioned, Frags will at least give the common guardsman something to do when a vehicle is within 6"
According to Warseer, it's not an extra shot, but an opportunity to shoot twice with flashlights. 20 S3 shots might not be effective, but 40 might.
As for not getting excited over 3+ cover saves... what did you expect? 4pt guardsmen with refractor fields? The main weapons that ignore cover saves are template weapons. Anyone close enough to use a template weapon is probably close enough to take a bajillion flashlight shots/pie plates in reply on the next turn.
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Post by: warpcrafter
Chimeras are 55 points? Excuse me while I wipe up...
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Post by: Platuan4th
warpcrafter wrote:Chimeras are 55 points? Excuse me while I wipe up...
Yes. And at a base of 95 points instead of the current 140, my Mech Guard are very happy.
Now to just find that last 10 Praetorians for first platoon and start ordering tons of Steel Legion for the other Platoons...
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Post by: Hulksmash
I'd have to say that the 10-man box rumor is false. Everyone i've talked to says 10 men w/special and heavy weapons for $22. Games-Workshop has been making every army cheaper over all when lowering the points. Fantays and 40k.
Best example is Orks who used to be 80 for $175 with no heavy weapons and no nobz. Now they are $176 for (i think, can't remember if you can make 11 or 12 inc. the nob) 88 models with heavy weapons and the nobz. It doesn't seem like much straight up but add in just 4 nobz ($40) and 2 blisters of heavy weapons ($30) and you get a massive savings.
The rest seems reasonable. It'll allow people to get the models on the table. I would bet though that "squadrons" are 0-1 and but individual units in game terms (i.e. biovores, lictors, DA ravenwing, and to a lesser extent marines).
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Post by: The Angry Commissar
squadrons yes!!!!!!!!! GLORY FOR THE IMPERIUM!!!!
46
Post by: alarmingrick
either way, i'm going to have all the troops/hvy weapons i'll need before
the 'dex Hits. i can't/won't take the chance they'll screw over everyone with
10 troops for $22.
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Post by: BoxANT
ubermosher wrote:
According to Warseer, it's not an extra shot, but an opportunity to shoot twice with flashlights. 20 S3 shots might not be effective, but 40 might.
Wait, so are you saying that you can "Rapid Fire" twice? So 10 lasguns rapid firing is 40 shots? Because if that is so, then that is freakin' awesome.
I actually thought that GW was going to give the basic guardsmen frag grenades. It makes sense from the fluff, and gives those poor guardsmen a chance at taking out armor.
These rumors are awesome 
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Post by: Mickhedd
If this is all true I look forward to the days when I looked back at the "good old days" and there were other armies people played...
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Post by: Dave47
BoxANT wrote:Wait, so are you saying that you can "Rapid Fire" twice? So 10 lasguns rapid firing is 40 shots? Because if that is so, then that is freakin' awesome.
My guess would be that it just lets you rapid fire up to 24" instead of 12" if you stand still. 40 shots coming from a 40 point squad on the move would be crazy-broken.
I actually thought that GW was going to give the basic guardsmen frag grenades. It makes sense from the fluff, and gives those poor guardsmen a chance at taking out armor.
Yeah, it makes a lot of fluff sense, since the IG that we play generally represent the "elite" of the Imperial Guard, and even "typical" IG are better trained and equiped than most PDFs. The fact that IG ae "weak" just goes to show how incredibly powerful everything else in 40k is.
The problem is one of gameplay: if you give almost every unit in 40k grenades, it kind of defeats the point of cover. It reminds me of RT / 2nd Ed. "smoke grenades": if even Imperial Guards are assumed to have good enough optics to see through smoke grenades, why bother making complex rules for them? Giving every rule an exception makes for cool fluff, but bloated gameplay.
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Post by: anticitizen013
Hmmm... Maybe I WILL be able to make a Tank Coy... 
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Until I see a PDF, er I mean, SAMPLE CODEX, I don't think it's worthwhile to speculate.
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Post by: Vaktathi
good luck fitting that into anything less than 2500pts. assuming 160 per LR and 90 per Valk, that's 2250 before HQ or Troops.
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Post by: chaplaingrabthar
Meet 9 Broadsides and 15 Anti-infantry Crisis suits. Oh and 12 FCW for troops.
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Post by: Polonius
I think frag grenades for IG makes some sense, even if it does diminish the value of cover. First, IG shouldn't be assaulting anybody, and giving them their whopping I3 back isn't exactly going to make a difference against anything but Orks and Tau. Secondly, I think it'll help distinguish "professional" military models from the more bestial armies. Marines and IG carry grenades because they're fighting men and they're equipt for all purposes, while Orks and Guants and Eldar Guardians aren't really dedicated soldiers, even if they're better fighters.
I would keep in mind that IG are one of the few armies that regularly cares about the morale rules, which are a far more complicated affair ignored far more often by units that are fearless, have ATSKNF, have mob rules, synapes, etc.
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Post by: Grot 6
So, are these grenades actually going to be able to be thrown this time around, or are they just back to being reaction crap for the charge, again?
I for one would not mind being able to fill a line with frag blastmarkers to screen my units with.
Other then that, I have no issue with the IG. So far so good.
your 9 valkries might be a bit much. what will you do when the anti air missles light up your tailpipes?
Combine air and ground, with some Artillery. the tanks in behind for mop up.
works for the whole shock and awe thing.
3 air, 3 tanks and 3 platoons of guard either mech or static barrage.
nothing says hi there like buckets of dice and blast templates FTW.
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Post by: Dave47
Grot 6 wrote:So, are these grenades actually going to be able to be thrown this time around, or are they just back to being reaction crap for the charge, again?
Neither, really. It's incredibly unlikely that GW is going to allow IG to throw grenades, and with everything in the army now striking at Initiative 3, Frag grenades are not going to be very relevant, since most units strike before Guard do. (But I guess it lets us wail on Tau.)
I think the real ramification of the change is Strength 4 versus vehicles rear armor. Guard can now damage many vehicles in assault, and can no longer be tied up in close combat by things like Sentinels.
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Post by: Frazzled
How do I say this.
I find the concept of someone mauling my sportsmanship for playing GUARD to be exhilarating
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Post by: chaplaingrabthar
I love the way the metagame is swinging towards hordes.
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Post by: Anung Un Rama
I like the part about 3 Valks as one FA choice. Now all I need is a rule to use Storm Troopers as troops and I'll have myself a new army project
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Post by: CaptainRavenclaw
Flight of the valkyrie time....duh duh duh duuhhh duh, duh duh duh duuuuh duh
1
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Hey, I hadn't noticed this before - but I like in that shot how the player has modeled each of his missiles on their own flight bases so he can remove them when fired - nice touch!
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Post by: skullspliter888
my IG are very pleased, about time IG get a boost
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Post by: jep'ray
Yup, i need 3 more tanks to hit 9 Russes...and some Valks...and i get to finally afford to field my 7 chimeras... happy days
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Post by: BrookM
I swear to whatever god they pray to, the next one to shout "flight of the Valkyries" in the store upon seeing or hearing of the upcoming plastic kit is getting a tazer to the rude bits.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Still looking forward to Valks!
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
I really think that folks getting excited for 9 LRBTs are setting themselves up for disappointment. Maybe I've been hanging around Agamemnon2 and H.B.M.C. too long, but I'm not convinced that GW will let Guard players go that tread-crazy.
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Post by: The_Whetherman
Chimeras are cheaper and available to all infantry. Mobile command post means that Officers can issue orders while embarked.
I was worried about this. Now I'm just excited. Filthy-excited.
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Post by: Necros
I'm expecting it to be more like a 0-1 squadron but you can pick the tank and they all gotta be the same... so you could do 3 demolishers, or 3 basilisks or whatever. Then you have 2 slots left for other things if ya want.
But even still, even if you could take 9 russes... thats a heluva lot of points to fit into a list.
No one will know for sure till the leaked-on-purpose PDF starts floating around
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Post by: Janthkin
BrookM wrote:I swear to whatever god they pray to, the next one to shout "flight of the Valkyries" in the store upon seeing or hearing of the upcoming plastic kit is getting a tazer to the rude bits.
Yes. The piece is titled Ride of the Valkyries.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Maybe he's really thinking "Flight of the Bumblebee"?
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Post by: Orlanth
jp400 wrote:So let me get this straight...
Extra Str 3 shot at BS 3........ again not very excited...
Overall.... Im hopeing for better.
4pt guardsman plus double shots = Where did my Geq go?
Unless your T5+ or have a 3+ save there is still something to worry about here.
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Post by: Orlanth
I am wondering how the new lasgun line will hold up to massed ork boyz. Looks very good on paper but when the boyz get to close combat it is all over, as usual.
I think we should first look at pie plate spam first asnd worry about a torrent of lasguns afterwards. Either way perhaps the guard are shortly no longer to be whipping boys.
The real imbalance I see is against tau. Tau being the other 'pure shooty' army and therefore closer to the paper test as units will tnd not to be tied up in close combat, so raw attrition based on firepower as guessed is key. seeing only what we see it looks like Tau will be sorely outgunned.
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Post by: chaplaingrabthar
Orlanth wrote: seeing only what we see it looks like Tau will be sorely outgunned.
Nothing new there. For a 'shooty' army, Tau are sorely outgunned by everyone, except Tyranids
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Post by: glon52
The Tau really do need some love.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
I'll send them loads of Pie to make them feel better...
EAT UP, Boys, plenty more coming!
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Post by: ShumaGorath
chaplaingrabthar wrote:Orlanth wrote: seeing only what we see it looks like Tau will be sorely outgunned.
Nothing new there. For a 'shooty' army, Tau are sorely outgunned by everyone, except Tyranids
Nah, tyranids outgun most armies. Basic space marines still don't quite have the taus firepower yet, though they are a lot harder to kill and pack a much bigger punch in combat. Necrons look to have the least firepower of all armies at the moment.
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Post by: Achillius
Dave47 wrote:
I think the real ramification of the change is Strength 4 versus vehicles rear armor. Guard can now damage many vehicles in assault, and can no longer be tied up in close combat by things like Sentinels.
Now that sir is the real kicker. I can actually hurt certain vehicles in HTH. Sure the odd meltabomb will be there but this is huge...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Achillius wrote:Dave47 wrote:I think the real ramification of the change is Strength 4 versus vehicles rear armor. Guard can now damage many vehicles in assault, and can no longer be tied up in close combat by things like Sentinels.
Now that sir is the real kicker. I can actually hurt certain vehicles in HTH. Sure the odd meltabomb will be there but this is huge...
Um, huh?
Guard wouldn't be tied up by non-Walker Vehicles anyways, and those can already be shot to death without any problem.
Guard still engage Walkers on their Front armor in HtH, so that doesn't change against the real threats. And shooty Sentinels / War Walkers aren't the kind of Walkers that scare Guardsmen - massed Kans are a problem, along with Chaos Dreads and SM Ironclads... Dread-class Monsters like WLs and Carnifexes still munch Guardsmen in HtH.
But looking at the numbers... Guard with a +1S vs vehicles would have 21 attacks (charging). On average, that would be 10+ hits, for 1.5 Glances... If I'm a Sentinel pilot, I'm still far better off in HtH than being shot at.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
If I'm a Sentinel pilot, I'm still far better off in HtH than being shot at.
Yet no longer perfectly safe. I think the grenades will be more important when counter charging out of cover. None of these are huge, but all together they make a much more versatile basic guardsman.
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Post by: Balance
Scottywan82 wrote:Sad day. I agree with Shummy.
I agree. Usually it seems to be GW's practice to think of three or fur really neat, flavorful special rules and give them all out at once despite the combination being over-powerful. (See IW in the previous Chaos Codex.) This jsut sounds lik three little bumps instead of a massive pendulum-swinging sledgehammer.
8218
Post by: Raxmei
JohnHwangDD wrote:But looking at the numbers... Guard with a +1S vs vehicles would have 21 attacks (charging). On average, that would be 10+ hits, for 1.5 Glances... If I'm a Sentinel pilot, I'm still far better off in HtH than being shot at.
Math's a bit off. Grenades only allow a single attack against vehicles. Against a walker they only hit on a 6. So ten attacks, 10/6 hits, 10/36 glances.
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Post by: BoxANT
Raxmei wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:But looking at the numbers... Guard with a +1S vs vehicles would have 21 attacks (charging). On average, that would be 10+ hits, for 1.5 Glances... If I'm a Sentinel pilot, I'm still far better off in HtH than being shot at.
Math's a bit off. Grenades only allow a single attack against vehicles. Against a walker they only hit on a 6. So ten attacks, 10/6 hits, 10/36 glances.
pretty sure he is talking about an infantry squad w/ +1 armor pen "TAAANK!!" order. Would give IG 21 S4 attacks on the charge against vehicles.
Of course, this could also work with Frag grenades, giving you 10 Str5 attacks, would help against Killer Kans.
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Post by: Achillius
JohnHwangDD wrote:Achillius wrote:Dave47 wrote:I think the real ramification of the change is Strength 4 versus vehicles rear armor. Guard can now damage many vehicles in assault, and can no longer be tied up in close combat by things like Sentinels.
Now that sir is the real kicker. I can actually hurt certain vehicles in HTH. Sure the odd meltabomb will be there but this is huge...
Um, huh?
Guard wouldn't be tied up by non-Walker Vehicles anyways, and those can already be shot to death without any problem.
Guard still engage Walkers on their Front armor in HtH, so that doesn't change against the real threats. And shooty Sentinels / War Walkers aren't the kind of Walkers that scare Guardsmen - massed Kans are a problem, along with Chaos Dreads and SM Ironclads... Dread-class Monsters like WLs and Carnifexes still munch Guardsmen in HtH.
But looking at the numbers... Guard with a +1S vs vehicles would have 21 attacks (charging). On average, that would be 10+ hits, for 1.5 Glances... If I'm a Sentinel pilot, I'm still far better off in HtH than being shot at.
Nice numbers, I've played for a long time now without getting into the numbers too much and have enjoyed every minute of it. The simple fact is, today I may have a guard squad, that has an officer with Krak or Melta's charge a vehicle to shut it up. Now everyone has a chance to help kill it My dice ignore the stats anyway, sometimes they suck and yet at other times they really suck, that's what lots of everything is for !!
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Post by: ricekake87
Any news on a sample out there yet????
11834
Post by: Superscope
OMG, My tau.... my poor poor tau are getting..... outgunned?
*Cries himself to sleep*
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Post by: Sternguard_rock
Its forums like these that make want to collect IG.
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Post by: warpcrafter
chaplaingrabthar wrote:I love the way the metagame is swinging towards hordes.
You obviously don't play plague marines. They're outnumbered by everybody.
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Post by: Superscope
warpcrafter wrote:chaplaingrabthar wrote:I love the way the metagame is swinging towards hordes.
You obviously don't play plague marines. They're outnumbered by everybody.
What about gray knights and their buddies?
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Post by: Lord Solar Plexus
Death By Monkeys wrote:I really think that folks getting excited for 9 LRBTs are setting themselves up for disappointment. Maybe I've been hanging around Agamemnon2 and H.B.M.C. too long, but I'm not convinced that GW will let Guard players go that tread-crazy.
I have a hard time getting 3 MBT's into my list, at least with all the other nice toys I must take!!!
Orlanth wrote:I am wondering how the new lasgun line will hold up to massed ork boyz. Looks very good on paper but when the boyz get to close combat it is all over, as usual.
Since I'm usually able to hold the line even with this codex, and since CC - contrary to your assertion - isn't the end of the world but the end of a single expendable squad, I expect IG to fare extremely well against Ork hordes.
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Post by: JD21290
ive never wanted to play guard due to the high ammount of painting basic troops, but i might give it a shot if some of this was true 
9 valks, 9 russ's, fill the rest in with basic troops with transport
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Post by: Lord Solar Plexus
I guess we know that ever since you posted it from your other account as pcon426 - it must be the same person, looking at those random number/letter combos - on the first page. Regrettably you did not read Vakhtati's response. It will not be possible in anything but Apoc games - and it has been possible in those for quite some time now.
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Post by: Ravajaxe
Hi guys !
Last few months, I've been somewhat disconnected from 40k due to lack of time... 
What a surprise to discover that GW-france had leaked the IG reference sheet. I get really amazed !
Just awesome to see such a comprehesive piece of info, two months before release.
These last rumors are quite exiting about IG rules, but I need some explanations to catch my delay :
I can't find what the "lumbering behemoth rule" means. Anyone can help ?
"Special orders" need to pass a Ld test I presume ?
4351
Post by: ubermosher
Ok, there is little more grist for the rumor mill from the Warseer thread. It was taken from a Librarum Online post without the poster's name being credited, so being third-hand info from a source of unknown veracity, take it with a huge grain of salt. That being said, most of the items in the post have been confirmed elsewhere (hellguns AP3, Speahead Sentinels FA:12, etc.), so the new tidbits may have a kernel of truth.
So I went to my local, friendly GW store yesterday and one of the staff members was kind enough to share some of the rules from the new codex with me. Here's what I remember, so take it with a grain of salt. And feel free to not believe me, I'm just a guy on the internet.
1. Hellguns are confirmed with AP3
2. Primaris Psykers and Lord Commissars are HQ choices
3. Primaris Psykers have a "night cloud" ability that makes units shooting at him and a squad attached to him (if there is one) pass a leadership test. Also, he has a ridiculous psychic lightning thing that will completely fry anything it hits.
4. Master of Ordinance is an advisor or something [b]who can drop one ordnance blast every turn. I don't remember the specifics, but I do remember that.
5. You can have a squad of psykers as an elites choice that contains 1 lead psyker, and between 4-9 (not completely certain on the numbers) psykers that has a leadership-draining ability that is dependent on how many psykers are in the squad (i.e. 9 psykers = drain 9 leadership)
6. Chimeras will be a transport upgrade for regular guard infantry
7. Orders is a new system which allows HQ to increase the ability (i.e. better shooting against tanks) of another unit. Vox's will now allow the HQ to reroll their leadership roll to give orders.
8. Valkyries will come with their own flying base and will count as flyers and can possibly move 24". They also come with a rule which allows the squad they are carrying to deep strike anywhere the valkyrie has moved over in that movement
9. Commissars will be upgrades to squads
10. New infantry boxes will be 10 men with a flamer and a grenade launcher, but will have many more bits allowing you to create hardened vets, penal legion troops, or regulars.
11. Leman Russ has a new rule which allows them to always fire their turret weapon as long as they have moved 6" or less along with one offensive weapon (i think)
12. Armored Sentinels will be closed-topped and have front armor 12, while scout sentinels are just your regular, good-ole fashioned sentinels. Sentinels will also now be able to have plasma cannons (although good only be armored sentinels). Also, the new sentinel box will cost 25 bucks, be all plastic, and have the options to make an armored sentinel, scout sentinel, and have all of its possible weapons.
And thats all i remember for now. Feel free to yell BS, and if you want something better than second-hand info, go to your local GW store, because they have the product briefs.
Update: another poster "confirms it"
well just got back from Bing, nah; the market brief packlet is fairly legit-looking... revolved around what to promote and prices, release dates, and such... came in last friday apparently.
all generally about 1st wave releases and any ig kits that aren't being replaced by something new. so no word in it on anything like the new stormtroopers (2nd wave), points, or special rules in-detail. just the sell-points about the new boxes and their units' new abilities.
infantry box: 25usd
no heavy weapons included... and looks like it just comes with a halved version of the old box... but 25usd instead of the old 35usd for double.
(only mentioned flamers and grenade launchers as well)
-Infantry platoons will apparently have an option to deploy as a single unit (like old conscript platoons)... meaning single unit during dawn of war deployment and most likely even a single killpoint.
-the bit about being able to make conscripts, infantry, veterans, and penal legionaires; though no pics of the sprues or alternatives instead of just the box and example cadians. so unsure how much of a deviation the alternatives will look.
-voxes allow officers to reroll the leadership tests required to issue orders
edit: almost forgot. frag grenades are standard on infantry squads now (big deal, i know)
command box: 25usd
-79 components/bits, including 2 standards to choose from (both kinda looked cadian so not really a DiY standard).
(that includes a plasma gun, meltagun, power weapon, and powerfist)
-of the 3 'issue orders' given as example; there's one that allows infantry squads an extra shot, a better cover save (later defined in another units entry as 'a better cover save when going to ground'), and better anti-tank capabilities.
battleforce: 95usd (available may 16th)
-contains a command squad, 2 infantry squads, heavy weapon squad, and sentinel
each is the new kit, except for the heavy weapon squad, which will be remaining the same as before
catachan boxes, all the similiar but catachan-y... ie, they have a command, infantry, and heavy weapons boxes
sentinel: one 25usd kit, with parts for both types, front av12 on the armored one, the open-topped one has scout and move through cover. all the rumored heavy weapons though no mention of which goes to which, just that they'll be in the kit. i don't think there was anything said about the 2ccw option rumor.
primaris psyker
hq choice
2d6 s6 assault 'lightning arc' ability and nightshroud, enemy has to pass a Ld test to shoot at the psyker's unit
psyker battle squad: overseer + 4-9 psykers,
only two powers mentioned are soulstorm and Ld penalty one, and that squad number directly effects them, not much info on how they both operate
Leman Russes, still the same kit so far
1-3 as a single heavy support choice
Lumbering Behemoth: move up to 6" and still be able to fire turret and any other capable weapons... i gather that if you stay stationary, you'll be able to fire everything including ordinance.
commissars are command and infantry squad upgrades, they bestow stubborn on given squad, they still execute leaders who fail to pass Ld tests.
the 5 ratlings are 20usd in one blister. they have stealth and infiltrate. (some random mention about having 'snacks' too)
regimental advisors: 17usd for all 3 in one blister
master of the fleet: -1 to enemy reserve rolls
astropath: +1 to your own reserve rolls
'ordinance guy': s9 ap3 ordinance shot with unlimited range if he doesn't move that turn
valkyrie: 58usd
1-3 as a single fast attack choice; no mention of the vendetta variant or valkyries as dedicated transport in the packlet (though since stormtroopers aren't included in the packlet either, that's most likely why)
embarked models may deep strike anywhere along the valkyries movement with a dangerous terrain test (it didn't just say disembark, so unsure if there will be a DS scatter involved)
comes with the new GW plastic flier base
Creed: (only special character mentioned) uses the same model
he'll take the place of officer and something-something (don't remember but i assume standard bearer) in a current command squad.
he can issue up to 4 orders per turn, including a unique order that bestows fearless and furious charge on a unit.
he allows one unit to gain scout (in a similiar fashion to Cato Sicarius' special rule)
I find it hilarious that my IG squads can get Stubborn, but not my SW squads.
Also in the above Warseer thread, a rumor just popped up that a vehicle with Mobile Command Vehicle (i.e. the Chimera) will allow an officer to give one additional order per turn.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
ubermosher wrote:Ok, there is little more grist for the rumor mill from Librarum Online via Warseer
Rules-wise, this is fine. I don't really care until I see points. We all got excited over the SM rules until we saw the points costs.
12. Armored Sentinels will be closed-topped and have front armor 12, while scout sentinels are just your regular, good-ole fashioned sentinels. Sentinels will also now be able to have plasma cannons (although good only be armored sentinels). Also, the new sentinel box will cost 25 bucks, be all plastic, and have the options to make an armored sentinel, scout sentinel, and have all of its possible weapons.
OK.
sentinel: one 25usd kit, with parts for both types, front av12 on the armored one, the open-topped one has scout and move through cover. all the rumored heavy weapons though no mention of which goes to which, just that they'll be in the kit. i don't think there was anything said about the 2ccw option rumor.
Yeah, I want a CC option!
valkyrie: 58usd
Excuse me? $58?
That should be $50. And where's the splash release / Apoc box?
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
And it still doesn't tell me whether the LRBT squadrons are 0-1 or not or whether or not these squadrons are LRBT only or if you can run variants in them.
I wonder what happens if you've given all your IG platoons Chimeras and then you merge them into one big mega-platoon. What happens with your Chimeras then? Can you do this while your guys are inside their Chimeras? How do you deal with unit coherency - do your Chimeras have to stay 2" apart?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
*Lurk Mode - Off*
infantry box: 25usd
no heavy weapons included... and looks like it just comes with a halved version of the old box... but 25usd instead of the old 35usd for double.
(only mentioned flamers and grenade launchers as well)
Wow. So instead of US$35 for 20 it's US$25 for 10. That's an increase of US$7.50 per 10 Cadians and all we get for that is the rumour of a possible upgrade sprue for Hardened Vets/Penal Legion, etc.
Go and buy 20-man Guard Boxes now people. They're one of the better deals now, and they're about to go away forever and your squads are about to go up in price by $7.50 for every 10-men you buy.
*Lurk Mode - Off*
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Death By Monkeys wrote:And it still doesn't tell me whether the LRBT squadrons are 0-1 or not or whether or not these squadrons are LRBT only or if you can run variants in them.
I wonder what happens if you've given all your IG platoons Chimeras and then you merge them into one big mega-platoon. What happens with your Chimeras then? Can you do this while your guys are inside their Chimeras? How do you deal with unit coherency - do your Chimeras have to stay 2" apart?
If they merge into one unit, I'd imagine that the Chimeras would still be free to roam around and taxi other squads that they weren't purchased for. Then again, that would make sense and this is GW, so they may just become one big squadron.
8141
Post by: SonsOfLoki
yay! now i know what to collect after my orks! Renegade guard
1088
Post by: rryannn
The increase in price for guardsmen is absolutely unnecessary.
1 25 man platoon = 75$ w/o heavy weapons? that's a little much for a basic troop choice.
978
Post by: Shattered Soul
BrookM wrote:I swear to whatever god they pray to, the next one to shout "flight of the Valkyries" in the store upon seeing or hearing of the upcoming plastic kit is getting a tazer to the rude bits.
A little harsh there, no? I do dislike the over use of that joke though.
273
Post by: Foda_Bett
I just got off the phone with my GW rep who spent 45 mintues with the book this morning.
1) Vendetta is a valk with 3 lascannons
2) Valks are 3 per FA choice ONLY
3) S3 AP3 hellguns are real
4) Parts of the French leak have been changed since that printing of the book.
5) Orders:
"Front rank fire second rank fire!" adds an additional die to rapid fire weapons. So 3 shots at close range 2 at long. (He specifially said rapid fire weapons).
"Take 'em down!" LT can call on any unit, heavy weapons in the unit are TWIN LINKED and add plus 1 to an armor penetration rolls. (He was really happy about killing carnifexes with this)
6) Some of the things on Dakka and Warseer are real but there's a BUNCH of holes, other stuff is fake.
7) He didn't remember anything about platoon drill.
8) 55pt guard squads with frag and krak as well as "other sweet things that make them worth the points"
9) Imperial armor chimera is about right.
Preview dexes should be in at the end of this month/early next, and should come with a few metal models and the valk.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
I'd guess the Ogryn rumors are fake then. As well as the Medusa, Hydra and Griffon.
:-)
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
We'll know soon enough. The preview copies are due out 3/21
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
With any luck the utterly redundant Eradicator, Colossus and needless Deathstrike will be removed.
Along with Psyker Squads. Seriously, Psyker Squads? WTF? Might as well call the unit "Buy more Sanctioned Psyker Blisters Please" Squads.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
ubermosher wrote:
-the bit about being able to make conscripts, infantry, veterans, and penal legionaires; though no pics of the sprues or alternatives instead of just the box and example cadians. so unsure how much of a deviation the alternatives will look.
I'm going to guess that this simply means the same as it does right now, as in, you're able to make conscripts out of the current plastic Cadian box. The only difference is the paint scheme. No way are they giving us a new sprue in the box. If they would, we'd have pictures of it by now.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
H.B.M.C. wrote:With any luck the utterly redundant Eradicator, Colossus and needless Deathstrike will be removed.
Along with Psyker Squads. Seriously, Psyker Squads? WTF? Might as well call the unit "Buy more Sanctioned Psyker Blisters Please" Squads.
You forgot to turn your lurk mode off that time. Must have really cheesed you off.
I actually hope none of it changes, and i'm somewhat sceptical that it has. Why bother translating it into French BEFORe committing to final changes? The design team speaks English I think.
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Post by: Gestalt
ubermosher wrote:Also in the above Warseer thread, a rumor just popped up that a vehicle with Mobile Command Vehicle (i.e. the Chimera) will allow an officer to give one additional order per turn.
How many orders do they start with? If Creed can give 4 a turn I'm guessing a normal CHQ is probably 3 and/or platoon squads are 1.
More importantly does IG get a psychic hood with the the new Primaris without having to take an inquisitor?
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Post by: foil7102
Twin linked with +1 to armor pen? My auto-canons just got really happy.
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Post by: Rangerrob
foil7102 wrote:Twin linked with +1 to armor pen? My auto-canons just got really happy.
Yah think? My eldar army just took one step away from my Guard army when they heard this.
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Post by: Ravajaxe
Foda_Bett wrote:I just got off the phone with my GW rep who spent 45 mintues with the book this morning.
1) Vendetta is a valk with 3 lascannons
2) Valks are 3 per FA choice ONLY
3) S3 AP3 hellguns are real
4) Parts of the French leak have been changed since that printing of the book.
5) Orders:
"Front rank fire second rank fire!" adds an additional die to rapid fire weapons. So 3 shots at close range 2 at long. (He specifially said rapid fire weapons).
"Take 'em down!" LT can call on any unit, heavy weapons in the unit are TWIN LINKED and add plus 1 to an armor penetration rolls. (He was really happy about killing carnifexes with this)
6) Some of the things on Dakka and Warseer are real but there's a BUNCH of holes, other stuff is fake.
7) He didn't remember anything about platoon drill.
Preview dexes should be in at the end of this month/early next, and should come with a few metal models and the valk.
Thanks for this report. Thanks to ubermosher also. This is very interesting stuff.
GW stores employees don't seem very resilient to the buzz around new codexes.
Your point 4 :
French /pdf was created on 2088 december 17, so adjustments were still possible since this early date. But myabe it is just some correction of transcription / pagination mistakes. For example, according to this document, LRBT Exterminator turret has twice the rate of fire of Hydra (just a line below) : weird isn'it ? Looks like an inversion to me.
Mabe there are some unreliable residues in the forums here and there, don't bother. A lot of rules are leaking just now from pre-prints of this codex. The french PDF seems very reliable. So, two months before the release of a codex I think it is just unprecedented to have this amount of information. As an IG player, I wait for the new codex with serenity.
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Post by: AlexCage
The more I hear about Orders the more I fall madly in love with them (If even half the rumors are true).
Orders: Because Guard are better at EVERYTHING when told what to do.
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Post by: Jarran
Are the valk's being released in the first wave? Anyone know?
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Jarran wrote:Are the valk's being released in the first wave? Anyone know?
According to the rumoured release schedules, it will be out same day as the book.
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Post by: Dave47
Given the potency of these rumored orders (and free grenades) paying 55 points per squad of Guardsmen seems a lot more reasonable than 40 points per squad. A twin-linked Str. 8 autocannon is going to be brutal against most vehicles. As will the twin-linked Str. 10 lascannon.
Is the French IG Codex scheduled for a (roughly) simultaneous release with the English Codex? If so, it's possible that they started translating an early draft, and that draft leaked. But it seems unlikely...
11
Post by: ph34r
H.B.M.C. wrote:With any luck the utterly redundant Eradicator, Colossus and needless Deathstrike will be removed.
Along with Psyker Squads. Seriously, Psyker Squads? WTF? Might as well call the unit "Buy more Sanctioned Psyker Blisters Please" Squads.
Whats wrong with them? I for one will be making an eradicator to take out orks and psyker squads are cool.
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Post by: Ghost in the Darkness
We'll I thought I had enough Infantry men in my IG army but it looks like I should go buy 1 box and keep it unassembled just in case now.
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Post by: foil7102
Free krak grenades? Really? come on Really?
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Post by: megamarines
foil7102 wrote:Free krak grenades? Really? come on Really?
I thought the same thing at first, I really did. Perhaps it's GW's way of making Guard less susceptible to being charged by Dreadnoughts and such and not being able to do anything about it. Though, it is rather insane....
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Post by: Ravajaxe
Dave47 wrote:Given the potency of these rumored orders (and free grenades) paying 55 points per squad of Guardsmen seems a lot more reasonable than 40 points per squad. A twin-linked Str. 8 autocannon is going to be brutal against most vehicles. As will the twin-linked Str. 10 lascannon.
Is the French IG Codex scheduled for a (roughly) simultaneous release with the English Codex? If so, it's possible that they started translating an early draft, and that draft leaked. But it seems unlikely...
French editions are released simultateously with english ones since years now. In order to get everything ready on schedule, translations are expected to be done quite early in the processus.
Imagine that the reference sheet translation have been done in advance. Compared to plain text, this is a matter of an hour work, at most. Technically, this document could have been done for testing purpose in december, but it's doubtful. If they exist, a tester in France would be able to cope with an english version. And it is not realistic to test anymore four months before release.
The truth may be found in the fact that GW french website shifted to this new funky and heavy version lately. Guess what ?
Transition was done on february the 18. So they messed up V4 and V5 IG reference sheets. You know the next, it was discovered and propagated the 02/19. This document is REAL. 
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Post by: Ghost in the Darkness
Crap just realized that if Im planning on adding Catachans I need to buy a box of them and Cadians now before the change them over.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
Wow...
Free frag/krak grenades, if that is true, that will really change the game. Guard units will be able to actually take down Dreads in CC (with some luck). However, that will be only if those dreads can make it past TL +1 against AV heavy weapons. If these changes are true, then IG just got their teeth back!
Commissars give Stubborn. Praise the Emperor, I hope this is true! Fearless is a liability when it comes to combat resolution. Taking all those extra wounds means that even if they passed their Ld test, the guard squad would not survive. Now that they are stubborn (only fearless if they fail and commie executes a poor sob), IG will be able to hold the line like they could in 4ed.
"Voltron" Platoons. I really hope the "make 1 unit" means that all of the squads have to be close (4", or 6") apart, and then only count as 1 KP. If it actually means that you make one giant unit of 55 men... we would loose a huge amount of firepower (only can shoot one unit), and would become even more vulnerable to assault (1 unit could tie up a whole platoon, and possibly kill it).
Creed sounds cool, makes me think about normal Officers. I bet a JO will be able to issue 1, a SO issue 2, and each get +1 if they have a chimera.
All in all, sounds great, if it turns out true.
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Post by: Platuan4th
BoxANT wrote:"Voltron" Platoons. I really hope the "make 1 unit" means that all of the squads have to be close (4", or 6") apart, and then only count as 1 KP. If it actually means that you make one giant unit of 55 men... we would loose a huge amount of firepower (only can shoot one unit), and would become even more vulnerable to assault (1 unit could tie up a whole platoon, and possibly kill it).
I think losing that firepower is the trade off to reducing your KP number. It makes you think in KP missions on whether you want to deny KPs and not be able to engage multiple targets or keep the flexibility and risk giving up extra those KPs. As a guard player, your "squads close together as 1 KP but not 1 unit" scenario is TOO advantageous, especially considering the Orders and other boni Guard Platoons gain.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
*Lurk Mode - Off*
Turning Guard platoons into amorphous blobs is a terrible 'solution' to the KP problem and is just asking for trouble as far as FAQ's go...
*Lurk Mode - On*
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Post by: Platuan4th
H.B.M.C. wrote:Turning Guard platoons into amorphous blobs is a terrible 'solution' to the KP problem and is just asking for trouble as far as FAQ's go...
I agree, but I can see their "thinking" on why they'd do it. I also think it's more an appeasement for the players who clamor for a KP fix, as I highly doubt GW thinks KPs are a problem to begin with. In fact, I have a feeling they think KP is a "balance" against the obviously inherent advantage of horde armies. You know, like an army with 2 Wounds.
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Post by: JB
Foda_Bett wrote:
5) Orders:
"Front rank fire second rank fire!" adds an additional die to rapid fire weapons. So 3 shots at close range 2 at long. (He specifially said rapid fire weapons).
"Take 'em down!" LT can call on any unit, heavy weapons in the unit are TWIN LINKED and add plus 1 to an armor penetration rolls. (He was really happy about killing carnifexes with this)
I share a lot of the enthusiasm about the upcoming IG codex but two things come to mind that I have not seen anyone mention yet:
1. Rolling to use orders (if necessary) will add even more die rolls (and time) to the IG player's phase of each turn. Hmm...just think if you have a Punisher too. We may need to buy more dice and give our opponents a chair so they can sit down for longer intervals.
2. "Take 'em down!" makes missle launchers a good tournament option as they will be a good balance of AT vs. vehicles as well as providing the AP blast templates (much better in 5th edition) for those horde armies.
10086
Post by: Neconilis
ubermosher wrote:8. Valkyries will come with their own flying base and will count as flyers and can possibly move 24". They also come with a rule which allows the squad they are carrying to deep strike anywhere the valkyrie has moved over in that movement
Wait, Valkyries are actually going to be flyers in normal 40K and not skimmers? That's a pretty big deal if that's true I'd have to imagine.
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Post by: frgsinwntr
hmm 1-3 for a single heavy choice for the russ eh? I wonder what the wording will be and if that means I can then take 1-3 as an allied unit for sisters/DH
8617
Post by: Hulksmash
I seriously doubt that the 10-man new boxes are going to come without heavy weapons. Everything basic troop wise has dropped in cost or stayed the same. They dropped ork points and reboxed them. Let's look at it.
80 Basic Orks used to cost $175. No heavy weapons or nobs.
80 Basic Orks now cost $176 but you also get a nob (i.e. 8 nobs) and heavy weapons now. So consider 4 nobs and 4 heavy weapons the new packaging is actually $50ish cheaper.
Marines haven't gone up in price. Daemons dropped in price when they went to plastic. So out of the last 3 codexes all squads have gotten cheaper or in the case of marines stayed the same (though Marines did get all special weapons now). So why is everyone so ready to assume GW will screw the guard? I may be wrong and if I am I'll post it but I wouldn't jump to conclusions on the new guard boxes.
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Post by: Kingsley
Ravajaxe wrote:So, two months before the release of a codex I think it is just unprecedented to have this amount of information.
What about Codex: Space Marines?
1478
Post by: warboss
unfortunately, every rumor that's come in the last month has stated that they WON'T come with a heavy weapon. i didn't believe the first but more and more people are reporting the same thing. that's not jumping to conclusions...
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Fetterkey wrote:Ravajaxe wrote:So, two months before the release of a codex I think it is just unprecedented to have this amount of information.
What about Codex: Space Marines?
Exactly. I had the Marine Codex, Ork Codex and 'Chaos' Codex all by now (or thereabouts). We actually know very little about what's coming out.
Heh. I just realised that, when you think about it, one of the few (only?) benefits of the old Spearheads is that we knew what was coming out. Now we don't even know that for sure...
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Post by: Hulksmash
I've just seen the same rumor referenced on 3 different sights that states the heavy weapons won't be included. We're just going to have to see as my contacts said it'll come with a heavy weapon (though he wouldn't confirm all heavy weapons so maybe just one like the SM's). If he's wrong then I'll find out when the box is released
3933
Post by: Kingsley
Gestalt wrote:More importantly does IG get a psychic hood with the the new Primaris without having to take an inquisitor?
The model seems to have one. However, it will probably be a newschool psychic hood (24" range), and his leadership 9 doesn't exactly have my Librarian shaking in his sabatons...
11
Post by: ph34r
If the "Front rank fire, second rank fire" rule does indeed apply to all rapid fire weapons, then I will still be taking plasma guns everywhere. If veterans go down by 2 points just like regular guardsmen, a super-rapid-fire squad of 10 vets with 3 PGs will kill its points in MeQ in one volley.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
Foda_Bett wrote:
"Front rank fire second rank fire!" adds an additional die to rapid fire weapons. So 3 shots at close range 2 at long. (He specifially said rapid fire weapons).
You know, if this is true, it could be the reason why they raised (supposedly) PlasmaGuns to 15 points. The ability to fire 2 shots at 24" and 3 shots at 12" would be rather nice 
752
Post by: Polonius
Is anybody else thinking that the prices for everything, and not just the basic squads, are silly? $95 for the Battle force? For 20 guardsman, 5 command, 3 heavy weapons, and a sentinel?
GW must think the IG are going to be amazingly good to make one of the first really poor values in battle forces.
It doesn't affect me (I play praetorians, and I hope to god to have enough models to weather the change), but I'm not sure making it harder to collect IG is going to make people run out and build the army.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
If the IG get a unit that can assault after deep striking as well I might as well take the power armor off of my marines.
GW must think the IG are going to be amazingly good to make one of the first really poor values in battle forces.
Thats no worse than the old Ork box. But I agree, it's not a very good buy.
752
Post by: Polonius
ShumaGorath wrote:
GW must think the IG are going to be amazingly good to make one of the first really poor values in battle forces.
Thats no worse than the old Ork box. But I agree, it's not a very good buy.
That box was a decent buy in terms of cash though, and everything in it was useful (if you played Speed Freaks). I'm still not sold on sentinels though.
Come to think of it, the horde armies have always tended to have lousy Battle Forces. Even now, the Cadian box is a trooper box, a heavy box, and a Russ, while the Catachans get 25 troopers, heavies, and 2 sentinels. Even the current Ork box is underwhelming.
4428
Post by: Lord Solar Plexus
Regarding the 1 platoon = 1 unit issue, I don't see any problem with that that cannot be overcome with just a little planning (shy of doing away with KP that is). No-one needs to take a full platoon. 35 men are in order, and can be equipped for the same role, and have a second platoon deploy in standard formation. In most cases, one would have to shoot all of their guns at a single target anyways. CC might be a problem but this is really nothing new. Seeing how there might be different ways to make the unit fearless or stubborn, they won't run but instead act as the tarpit we can use so well.
JB wrote:
1. Rolling to use orders (if necessary) will add even more die rolls (and time) to the IG player's phase of each turn. Hmm...just think if you have a Punisher too. We may need to buy more dice and give our opponents a chair so they can sit down for longer intervals.
That isn't even close to a minor nuisance. My turns aren't any longer than anyone else's (why should they?), every player I know owns buckets of dice anyways, and all of them are polite enough to offer chairs regardless.
Polonius wrote:Is anybody else thinking that the prices for everything, and not just the basic squads, are silly?
Yes Sir, I'm thinking that since 1997!
Anyways, it appears to be a decent means to clear the shelves of current boxes.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
The NEW IG Battlebox is
- $44 for 20 Guardsmen
- $35 for the HWS
- $25 for the Sentinel
That's $104 before you even add in the Command Squad...
So based on the uber-inflated GW retail prices for plastic Guard, the Battlebox appears not to be totally unreasonable.
Of course, I look at it like this:
- $20 for Command
- $35 for 20 IG
- $25 for the HWS
- $20 for the Sentinel
So I'm at $100 total, which makes the Battlebox barely any savings at all if you use everything in the box.
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Post by: foil7102
ph34r wrote:If the "Front rank fire, second rank fire" rule does indeed apply to all rapid fire weapons, then I will still be taking plasma guns everywhere. If veterans go down by 2 points just like regular guardsmen, a super-rapid-fire squad of 10 vets with 3 PGs will kill its points in MeQ in one volley.
I was thinking the same thing. If would make plasma guns super uber, unless they add a little exception to that rule. ALA sharpshooters, (this cool rule does not apply to plasma guns)
6500
Post by: MinMax
ph34r wrote:If the "Front rank fire, second rank fire" rule does indeed apply to all rapid fire weapons, then I will still be taking plasma guns everywhere. If veterans go down by 2 points just like regular guardsmen, a super-rapid-fire squad of 10 vets with 3 PGs will kill its points in MeQ in one volley.
It would certainly make 15 point Plasmaguns seem a lot more reasonable!
On the other hand, all of these Plasmagun-wielding Guardsmen are going to melt in two or three turns, because of the Gets Hot! rule. At least its not as severe as the OLD Gets Hot!
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Post by: PanamaG
MinMax wrote:ph34r wrote:If the "Front rank fire, second rank fire" rule does indeed apply to all rapid fire weapons, then I will still be taking plasma guns everywhere. If veterans go down by 2 points just like regular guardsmen, a super-rapid-fire squad of 10 vets with 3 PGs will kill its points in MeQ in one volley.
It would certainly make 15 point Plasmaguns seem a lot more reasonable!
They could go down in points in the new codex.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Seriously, I can only hope the Punisher and Eradicator are fakes....frikkin' ridiculous.
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Post by: Scottywan82
Death By Monkeys wrote:Seriously, I can only hope the Punisher and Eradicator are fakes....frikkin' ridiculous.
 Punisher and Eradicator? What's so ridiculous about them? the Eradicator seems sort of useless is all....
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
The Punisher just seems so over-the-top fanboy wetdream (even if it is only "good" when the numbers come down to it) that it just rankles me. As for my beef with the Eradicator - well, as you said yourself, it's just useless. Personally, I think the Devil Dog and the, what, Banehound? are in this same category.
I guess part of what I'm so annoyed about with the Punisher and the Eradicator is that the addition of these two tanks (as well as the Colossus - although less so, frankly, but that's another issue) flies over the top of over a decade of FW Imperial Armor precedent. It bothers the fluff Nazi in me. I mean, I understand that 5E is all about cover saves and forcing your opponent to make lots of armor saves, but there's never been a mention of either of these tanks before anywhere in 40K canon (part of why I'm not so cheesed about the Colossus - there have been vehicles/weapons called the Colossus before - not like this, but not completely dissimilar). Granted, it's not like GW didn't do this before in introducing the Land Speeder Storm or the Thunderfire Cannon for the Space Marines. But frankly, aside from what's in the Codex, there's not really a lot of variation in Space Marine equipment.
Imperial Guard, on the other hand, have seen 4 Imperial Armor books with lots of different tank variants and other useful vehicles. I very much appreciate the fact that GW is adding the Vanquisher, Exterminator, Executioner, Manticore, Hydra, and especially the Valkyrie from the IA books to the IG codex. I really do. But why include Punisher and Eradicator and not Destroyer Tank Hunters? You see Destroyer Tank Hunters throughout the BL novels. And, really, if you're going to add a useless tank, why not just add the Conqueror instead of the Eradicator? Or call it the Conqueror and give it the Eradicator's rules. I wouldn't mind that. Frankly, I wouldn't have even minded so much if they had called the Punisher the Exterminator Mk. II or somesuch. But why these and not Salamanders? Why not Thunderbolts? Or Centaurs?
There's already been years of playtesting with these FW models and rules (which, frankly, largely show them to be underpowered for their points cost). Compared to how much playtesting has there been for the Punisher and Eradicator? Okay, here's an example - under the IA rules, the Executioner is pretty underpowered for its points cost. So GW's looking to add it to the IG codex. They know, through years of playtesting, that if it is to be played in decent numbers that they need to boost the power. Okay, let's make that Plasma Cannon in the turret Heavy 3 instead of Heavy 1. If they keep it a similar points to what it is in IA - hey, that'll be a useful tank. The Vanquisher (and I hope they do this right) actually has good rules per point value under IA - but only when you're able to use both regular shells as well as Vanquisher shells as well as when you're able to give the crew BS 4. GW knows this through years of playtesting. Hopefully, they won't screw it up. The Conqueror - we can see through playtesting in 5E rules (heck, even without playtesting in 5E we can see this), it's useless. So GW left it out. That's fine.
There are just so many options from the IA books that would make Guard players really happy that would require only a few tweaks to make them playable out of the IG codex. I'm just really disappointed that GW went with something that looks like it came from a fan-written codex that 8 months after the release of the codex may never see play because extensive gameplay has determined that it sucks. Consequently, it's taking up useful codex space that could much better be filled with something a whole lot more useful.
*Edited for linebreaks to make my rant more readable.
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Post by: Polonius
Excellent rant sir. Take a bow!
I agree, if far less passionately.
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Post by: Dexy
The rumored TANK rule I really can't swallow. Reroll to hit, reroll pen, reroll dmg chart, modify dmg chart, all of those I could believe, but +1STR to weapons fired at tanks changes so much!
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
While I can't say that I've ever playtested a miniatures game, I've playtested CCGs enough to have some pretty strong feelings about letting "coasters" (i.e. useless cards that are only good for setting your drink on, but take up space in booster packs). Consequently, I feel similarly strongly about rules "coasters" for other games as well.
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Post by: Janthkin
Dexy wrote:The rumored TANK rule I really can't swallow. Reroll to hit, reroll pen, reroll dmg chart, modify dmg chart, all of those I could believe, but +1STR to weapons fired at tanks changes so much!
Why? It's the the old Tank Hunters USR, plus twin-linking (in exchange for having to use Orders, presumably).
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Post by: Polonius
Considering that IG rely on long range tank hunting more than any army other than Tau (and they're good at it with AP1, S10 railguns), it makes sense that IG would, you know, be good at the things that they're supposed to be good at.
Does it really make sense that Orks have 2 Attacks and Furious charge? maybe not, but it's what it takes to make Orks good at Close combat, which is what they're supposed to be good at. Same thing with Stealers and rending claws, Dire Avengers and bladestorm, and Assault terminators and storm shields.
One thing that GW seems to finally be realizing post Dark Angels is that for an army to be good at something, it has to actually excel at it. Merely being better at it than anything else doesn't make an army any good.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Death By Monkeys wrote:I guess part of what I'm so annoyed about with the Punisher and the Eradicator is that the addition of these two tanks (as well as the Colossus - although less so, frankly, but that's another issue) flies over the top of over a decade of FW Imperial Armor precedent.
Frankly, I wouldn't have even minded so much if they had called the Punisher the Exterminator Mk. II or somesuch. But why these and not Salamanders? Why not Thunderbolts? Or Centaurs?
There's already been years of playtesting with these FW models and rules (which, frankly, largely show them to be underpowered for their points cost).
I generally agree. There are plenty enough IG tanks already and I would have been happier to see all of the existing FW stuff moved over to the IG Codex. Just rebalance to make all of the Tanks worth the points, and that'd have met and exceeded all of my expectations as an IG treadhead.
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Post by: BoxANT
IG is shaping up to be a *true* 5ed shooty army. That is to say, GW appears to be giving them the ability to actually put out some serious fire power.
While in the 4ed context, this would be completely overpowered, however, the dynamic has changed in 5ed. Assault is extremely powerful (being able to destroy multiple units in 1 assault phase), so for a shooty army to survive, they need a lot of firepower.
IG will still be beaten brutally in CC (albeit the Ogryns and Commissars will help), but charging at an IG gunline will actually be dangerous now. Heck Orks may actually have to think twice!!
Now, I just hope Tau get some love soon.
752
Post by: Polonius
There's also enough FW and epic stuff that could be re-imagined to fit in with Fifth edition to make new tanks unnecessary. The punisher is just an upgunned exterminator. Why not make the Conqueror gun a S6 AP4 ordinance that ignores cover? Things like that.
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Post by: ubermosher
Death By Monkeys wrote:Personally, I think the Devil Dog and the, what, Banehound? are in this same category.
First of all, fine rant. Agree with a lot of it.
Second, I believe you are referring to the Bane Wolf. At first glance I was fairly 'meh' on it, too. But, On second thought, it can have a decent impact on the metagame: An AP 3 Poison template is arguably the best anti-Plague Marine weapon out there. No scatter, hits a decent number of models, wounds on 2+ with no armor save, no cover save, and no Feel No Pain roll. Combine that with, if the rumor is true, the Elite Psyker squad's ability to drain leadership to affect Lash, and all of sudden Lash CSM lists move down a notch.
Death By Monkeys wrote:But why these and not Salamanders?
 Why, why, why did you have to bring this up??
Edit: Grammar friend is your.
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Post by: foil7102
Meh, I am happy with all of the new tanks. Did I like the existing fluff? Sure, but if your only gripe about these tanks is the fluff that you got nothing to gripe about. Give it one new set of books, and these new tanks will be firmly canon.
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Post by: Janthkin
ubermosher wrote:Death By Monkeys wrote:Personally, I think the Devil Dog and the, what, Banehound? are in this same category.
First of all, fine rant. Agree with a lot of it.
Second, I believe you are referring to the Bane Wolf. At first glance I was fairly 'meh' on it, too. But, On second thought, it can have a decent impact on the metagame: An AP 3 Poison template is arguably the best anti-Plague Marine weapon out there. No scatter, hits a decent number of models, wounds on 2+ with no armor save, no cover save, and no Feel No Pain roll. Combine that with, if the rumor is true, the Elite Psyker squad's ability to drain leadership to affect Lash, and all of sudden Lash CSM lists move down a notch.
At the risk of thread-derailment, why wouldn't plague marines get a FNP roll?
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Post by: Platuan4th
Janthkin wrote:At the risk of thread-derailment, why wouldn't plague marines get a FNP roll?
They would.
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Post by: Ozymandias
Ok, I was wondering that too when I read his post. I didn't know if there was a special poisoned weapons ignore FNP rule.
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Post by: ubermosher
Ok, re-checked Feel No Pain, and I misunderstood the provision "Neither can it be used... against which no armor save can ever be taken." ( BGB, pg. 75). I was thinking that since it couldn't take an armor save, it couldn't use Feel No Pain. Distinction noted.
Back on track by regurgitating even more Warseer rumors. Someone stop me...
Warseer's ehlijen wrote:
I've just been extensively told about things regarding the codex from a staffer who claims to have read the codex. Some of this contradicts what he told me before and I have not seen it myself, so pinch of salt and all that.
Platoon:
The basic platoon is still the current 25 men minimum to which can be added 0-3 infantry squads, 0-5 heavy squads, 0-2 special squads and 0 or 2-5 conscript squads.
The conscripts form one unit of 20-50 men and the infantry squads can be merged to ones heart desire, but every thing else is set in the unit sizes. There is apparantly no maximum number of squads.
Troops choices:
Veteran squads are a seperate troops choice and are much like they are now (no details were mentioned though).
Penal squads are a seperate troops choice with only basic equipment but stubborn. They also roll for their 'crime' at the start of their game and get appropriate boni, ie psychos are better fighters, scroungers have more gear.
Psykers:
There is a psyker squad with what was described as a commisar handler who will shoot d3 of them on any perils result.
All vehicles are in squadrons with subtypes mixable, ie russes, hounds and arty. Deathstrikes are not squadrons.
Lumbering behemoth means the turret gun does not count towards the number of weapons fired (ordnane or not) but cruising speed is only 6+d6.
Heavy weapon squads: basic armament is 3 mortars for 60 points total. Apparently mortars were reduced in cost the most.
Orders: He meantioned 3:
Tank!, as said (very much tank hunter)
Fire in ranks, extra shot as has been said.
Down! Go to ground with +1 cover save (ie the unit can't shoot for this turn).
Creed has a special order:
For cadia: squad becomes fearless and gains furious charge.
The valhallan platoon commander SC can upgrade his platoons conscript squad for 75 points allowing a special order called
Send in the next wave: the squad is immediately removed and next turn walks back on from the table edge at full starting strenght.
As I said, no clue about the truth content, I've just been told this stuff.
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Post by: The Dreadnote
I'm sure random rolls for penal guard abilities will go down well...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Maybe penal guard become possessed?
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
foil7102 wrote:Meh, I am happy with all of the new tanks. Did I like the existing fluff? Sure, but if your only gripe about these tanks is the fluff that you got nothing to gripe about. Give it one new set of books, and these new tanks will be firmly canon.
I mean, my gripe is partly fluff, but a lot of it is about playability (or lack thereof). With FW tanks we have over a decade of playtesting for many of these models. GW can draw on this experience to modify and make them better and more balanced for the book. With these new models, we've maybe got 6 months - maybe a year of playtesting max. You're taking a bigger gamble with what you put into the codex. It could be great, but it could be crap. And for myself, while it seems like there's going to be some really good stuff, I'd much rather maximize the good stuff than have some good stuff combined with something that could be good or could be crap. I think the Punisher and Devil Dog have the potential to be good. But the Eradicator looks like crap. And the Colossus and Bane Wolf are 'meh'. Wouldn't you rather have 5 solid entries than 2 solid entries, 2 mediocre ones, and a crap one?
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
ubermosher wrote:Warseer's ehlijen wrote:Troops choices:
Veteran squads are a seperate troops choice and are much like they are now (no details were mentioned though).
Good to hear. Now I'm more confident about assembling my Vet Squad.
ubermosher wrote:Warseer's ehlijen wrote:All vehicles are in squadrons with subtypes mixable, ie russes, hounds and arty. Deathstrikes are not squadrons.
Finally! Someone answers at least one part of my question about Leman Russ squadrons. Interesting to hear though that Hounds and Arty will also be getting squadrons. I'm still wondering if these squadrons will be 0-1, though.
ubermosher wrote:Warseer's ehlijen wrote:Lumbering behemoth means the turret gun does not count towards the number of weapons fired (ordnane or not) but cruising speed is only 6+d6.
This is pretty ambiguous. It doesn't clarify whether or not this rule overrides the rule saying that if you fire ordnance you can't fire anything else. I'm inclined to believe that it doesn't. Granted it does mean you can fire your main cannon and move at cruising speed (if only for a distance of 7-12 inches).
ubermosher wrote:Warseer's ehlijen wrote:The valhallan platoon commander SC can upgrade his platoons conscript squad for 75 points allowing a special order called
Send in the next wave: the squad is immediately removed and next turn walks back on from the table edge at full starting strenght.
Hahahahahahahahahaa....that's great! They promised the opening scene of "Enemy at the Gates" and I think in this rule, we got it!
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Post by: foil7102
Oh wow, the points costs for 9 Russ's in a single list get expensive fast. But say 3 Russ, 3 heavy mortar type tanks, and three medusa.... Thats a lot of pie.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Even with 9 Russes, though - let's say you take them at 160 pts a pop - 1440 pts. In an 1850 point game, that's still 410 left. Let's say 110 per naked min-sized platoon for your troops (two platoons, natch), and 100 for a command squad. Use the 90 pts you have left for some heavy/special weapons, and you've got a playable, legal army. Don't know how good, but it'd be fun to try at least once (just to see the look on your opponent's face!
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Post by: foil7102
Or use the 90 points to upgrade three of the Russes to demolishers for some str 10 love
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Post by: Ivan
The heavy weapons counting as twin-linked and +1str vs vehicle thing is going to be huge, if true. Perfectly reasonable to require a leadership check to use that. Str8 Autocannons to take down the light vehicles, Str10 Lascannons for the heavy stuff you really need a melta for currently. Very excited about that. Might even start bothering to shoot lascannons at Arm14 again. Although the Missile Launcher looks like it still wont have a useful role to fill.
As for the vehicles...
In 4th it was "use your vehicles vs infantry, use your infantry vs vehicles". With the addition of the melta-hound and long barelled melta-Russ (name escapes me at the moment), it looks like theyre giving us good anti-tank options for vehicles too. So you can mix/match your roles a bit more.
Has anyone confirmed if Sentinels will have a multi-melta option yet?
Also, has anyone given any thought to how a swarm of arm 12 support sentinels would play? Assuming you can squadron them as fast attack choices you're talking 9 or more arm12 walkers. And with Arm12, one is quite capable of tying up a squad of MEQs (potentially even with a PF) for a few turns. I wonder if we'll see sentinel spam as a competitive option.
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Post by: Reecius
Maybe penal guard become possessed?
Hahaha, good one!
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Post by: BoxANT
Throwing a lot of AV12, in the form of Sentinels and Chimeras (with some AV14 to draw some fire), is going to present an interesting challenge for many armies.
Armies that have limited anti tank, or do not have a lot of powerfists (or other melee heavy hitters), will have a hard time.
AV12 Sentinels gives me ideas especially...
Think of one AV12 Sentinel charging a squad of BloodCrushers (not hard to do actually). Assuming a Monster does come over and ruin your fun, you could tie up a whole squad for the game!
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Post by: Platuan4th
BoxANT wrote:Think of a squad of three AV12 Sentinels charging a squad of BloodCrushers (not hard to do actually). Assuming a Monster does come over and ruin your fun, you could tie up a whole squad for the game!
There's no need for a Monster to save them, that's what Fury(Rending) is for.
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Post by: Reecius
I cant think of any army that would auto lose to that, guard tanks are so easily destroyed in HtH now, and the armies that lack HtH punch usually shoot like the dickens.
I agree though, that the Guard sound like they are going to be FAR more competetive and will be able to take on all comers with a lot better chance of winning.
The only downside (if the rumors are true) is tha tnow like Orks, winning with Guard will not be so satisfying as it was! But that is a very minor complaint!
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Post by: Hulksmash
I'd take half those new rumors from warseer worth a grain of salt. They seem very wishlisty. Workshop has consistantly been trying to simplify rules. Those rules make things more complicated, not less which is the opposite direction Workshop has been going. We'll just have to wait and see.
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Post by: Gestalt
Ivan wrote:Also, has anyone given any thought to how a swarm of arm 12 support sentinels would play? Assuming you can squadron them as fast attack choices you're talking 9 or more arm12 walkers.
I have heard rumors of them being in Elite and more recently of them taking a Heavy slot, I doubt the heavy sentinel will be FA. Ogryns might still be a better tarpit unit though.
I don't see how the new IG would be more complicated than anything else in the game. And I don't see them as being an overpowered army either, guard could always fit ridiculous amounts of firepower in a force org chart. People aren't putting 400 troops AND 9 Leman Russ(which rumors say is more expensive) in the same army. Just they will be even with other competitive armies for once.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Hulksmash wrote:I'd take half those new rumors from warseer worth a grain of salt. They seem very wishlisty. Workshop has consistantly been trying to simplify rules. Those rules make things more complicated, not less which is the opposite direction Workshop has been going. We'll just have to wait and see.
Erm. How was the new SM Codex an effort to simplify rules? While stuff like C: CSM and C A were simplifications, with C: SM, I wouldn't quite say that GW has been consistent about it.
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Post by: grizgrin
With C:CSM, they sure as hell took the complexity doen from "Damn!" to "Wot?!"
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Random abilities for Penal Legion? No doubt rolled after deployment.
GW - A Bunch of fething Morons
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Post by: AffliKtion
Down! Go to ground with +1 cover save (ie the unit can't shoot for this turn).
What's the point of this? do you get a go to ground bonus AND this order bonus? if not its kind of pointless. Unless you mean they can still assault and just not shoot.
Veteran squads are a seperate troops choice and are much like they are now (no details were mentioned though).
This is SICKKKK. Outflank a couple of vet squads near the end of a round to get some last minute contests/ point captures.
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Post by: Defiler
Large units of untrained criminals pressed into service, coming into play with a mish-mash of abilities?
Ridiculous.
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Post by: Defiler
AffliKtion wrote:Down! Go to ground with +1 cover save (ie the unit can't shoot for this turn).
What's the point of this? do you get a go to ground bonus AND this order bonus? if not its kind of pointless. Unless you mean they can still assault and just not shoot.
I think he means that they end up getting +2 overall.
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Post by: Hulksmash
@Death by Monkeys
Compared to the last book they took out a lot of the complexity. Also the new marine book is very easy to understand when you look at it. That wasn't the case with the last marine codex. Not to mention they made the codex easier for opponents. We don't have to guess what traits they have or don't have anymore. So I'd say they have consistantly strived to make rules more streamlined. And most of the last batch from Warseer don't do that at all.
On a different note personally i think the "tank" rule is more likely to be +1 on the damage chart as though it was AP1 not +1ST. We'll just have to see.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Hulksmash wrote:On a different note personally i think the "tank" rule is more likely to be +1 on the damage chart as though it was AP1 not +1ST. We'll just have to see.
The rumours seem to indicate giving the Tank Hunters USR(+1 to the penetration roll), not an actual +1 Strength.
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Post by: AffliKtion
Defiler wrote:AffliKtion wrote:Down! Go to ground with +1 cover save (ie the unit can't shoot for this turn).
What's the point of this? do you get a go to ground bonus AND this order bonus? if not its kind of pointless. Unless you mean they can still assault and just not shoot.
I think he means that they end up getting +2 overall.
I'm hoping =D
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Hulksmash wrote:Compared to the last book they took out a lot of the complexity. Also the new marine book is very easy to understand when you look at it. That wasn't the case with the last marine codex. Not to mention they made the codex easier for opponents. We don't have to guess what traits they have or don't have anymore. So I'd say they have consistantly strived to make rules more streamlined. And most of the last batch from Warseer don't do that at all.
Okay, I see what you mean by that. There was a lot of confusion over traits and such. However, I don't think there are any fewer rules for SM - they've just streamlined how they're presented, so instead of taking traits, you take a special character instead. But yeah, you make a good point there.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Do they still have the tank hunters USR? I thought that was one that got dropped. I haven't checked the rule book but is it still a rule? If it is then I could easily see this happening as an order.
@Death by Monkeys
Thanks Mostly I'm trying to look at the brightest side without going Over the Top so that i'm disapointed when the book comes out.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Hulksmash wrote:Do they still have the tank hunters USR? I thought that was one that got dropped. I haven't checked the rule book but is it still a rule? If it is then I could easily see this happening as an order.
It's on page 76, between Swarms and Turbo-boosters. I can see why you'd think it isn't there, though, since almost no 5th Ed Codex has a unit with it(Sicarius can hand it out, though).
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Post by: Polonius
Platuan4th wrote:Hulksmash wrote:Do they still have the tank hunters USR? I thought that was one that got dropped. I haven't checked the rule book but is it still a rule? If it is then I could easily see this happening as an order.
It's on page 76, between Swarms and Turbo-boosters. I can see why you'd think it isn't there, though, since almost no 5th Ed Codex has a unit with it(Sicarius can hand it out, though).
Eldar Firedragons can still take it, as can Black Tempar command squads, veterans, and terminators.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
H.B.M.C. wrote:Random abilities for Penal Legion? No doubt rolled after deployment.
It might not be that bad, if indeed the squad has Infiltrate and Stubborn as standard, as the earlier rumors indicated, because those two skills will always make them at least somewhat useful. Also, you can outflank them, which at least gives you some control where they come out. It's not quite the same as the Possessed where the squad's entire role is tied with that one random roll.
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Post by: Kid_Kyoto
Hulksmash wrote:I'd take half those new rumors from warseer worth a grain of salt. They seem very wishlisty. Workshop has consistantly been trying to simplify rules. Those rules make things more complicated, not less which is the opposite direction Workshop has been going. We'll just have to wait and see.
Gotta disagree the vanguard's special ammo, the LS storm rules, the scout biker rules all are more complex. I think there was (another) reversal inside GW and we're only seeing it now.
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Post by: greynite1
Hmmm it could be that GW just wants the IG to be the Special Hardcore gamers and modellers army.
So they stick this new huge variety of units and approaches to which people can have an Imperial alternative to
marines. However Guard are no where near the cheapest army to collect...or paint....or play!! guard from my opinion
isn't a real beginner army. So they give all this stuff in there which makes them especially attractive to someone who
is willing to get the best out of the combined arms approach. Just an idea
And yes it doesn't hurt that GW totally profits by making a very attractive army one that they can make extra scratch with
So hopefully if all the rumors are even 50% true (including a better fix for kill points The Future Blob platoon) guard will be
very awesome indeed
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Post by: Raxmei
The latest thing that has Warseer abuzz is a rumor that Stormtroopers are getting bumped up to 16 points. A number of posters are discounting that rumor as absurd, but there is some speculation as to what could possibly be added to make a stormtrooper worth that much.
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Post by: Kingsley
Kid_Kyoto wrote:Hulksmash wrote:I'd take half those new rumors from warseer worth a grain of salt. They seem very wishlisty. Workshop has consistantly been trying to simplify rules. Those rules make things more complicated, not less which is the opposite direction Workshop has been going. We'll just have to wait and see.
Gotta disagree the vanguard's special ammo, the LS storm rules, the scout biker rules all are more complex. I think there was (another) reversal inside GW and we're only seeing it now.
Strongly disagree. All the most complicated elements of the Space Marine codex were removed in the update, such as traits, the armory section, veteran skills, whirlwind mines, and so on.
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Post by: Thanatos73
Raxmei wrote:The latest thing that has Warseer abuzz is a rumor that Stormtroopers are getting bumped up to 16 points. A number of posters are discounting that rumor as absurd, but there is some speculation as to what could possibly be added to make a stormtrooper worth that much.
Power armor and +1 WS, S, T, a bolter and ATSKNF? Yeah, my 30 stormies would never see the light of day for 16 pts a model. An AP3 Hellgun is not worth that.
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Post by: Uszaty
Getting constantly raped by old codex infantry IG spam, I think most of those rumors are freaking ridiculous. I see no point finishing my CSM army now. I wonder how many people will start their IG armies just to keep up with the metagame...
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Post by: Da Boss
You're getting beaten by IG infantry spam at the moment?
Well, you're probably in a minority there.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Polonius wrote:Platuan4th wrote:It's on page 76, between Swarms and Turbo-boosters. I can see why you'd think it isn't there, though, since almost no 5th Ed Codex has a unit with it(Sicarius can hand it out, though).
Eldar Firedragons can still take it, as can Black Tempar command squads, veterans, and terminators.
Both of those are 4th Ed Codecii.
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Post by: Hulksmash
I think that's why I got confused. No new books were coming out with it as a special rule. My bad and I stand corrected. Thanks Plat
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Post by: BoxANT
Uszaty wrote:Getting constantly raped by old codex infantry IG spam, I think most of those rumors are freaking ridiculous. I see no point finishing my CSM army now. I wonder how many people will start their IG armies just to keep up with the metagame...
Seriously?
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Post by: volair
Uszaty wrote:Getting constantly raped by old codex infantry IG spam, I think most of those rumors are freaking ridiculous. I see no point finishing my CSM army now. I wonder how many people will start their IG armies just to keep up with the metagame...
If you have trouble against the current imperial guard, then your problems are with your own army, not with that of others. Your army obviously needs serious help; I recommend posting your army list on the appropriate forum to get some feedback.
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Post by: reds8n
Death By Monkeys wrote:And it still doesn't tell me whether the LRBT squadrons are 0-1 or not or whether or not these squadrons are LRBT only or if you can run variants in them.
Russ tanks of all variants may be taken in squadrons of 1-3.
You can mix and match as you like.
There's a tank commander upgrade character too-- Cronus (sp ?the marine guy) lite. Usefull enough though for certain weapons I'd suggest.
Basic infantry come with frga as standard, they have to pay for krak.
Book looks very nice indeed.
LOTS of special rules.
I especially liked the option for rending penal troopers.
Basic orders :
First rank, 2nd rank-- extra shot so goes to 3 shots/2 shots.
"Cover" -- not it's name-- +2 on your cover save.
MOve. move move, run, roll 3d6 take highest.
HQ command squads have those plus extra one :
BRING IT DOWN ! SQuad becomes twin linked when shooting at tanks, MCs or units/squadrons thereof.
Think they have some auto rally one as well-- this might even unpin them if tehy have dropped for the save.
Orders are given in the shotting phase-- AT THE BEGINNING. If a unit activates by doing something before orders are given-- ie if you space out for a moment-- that unit cannot use orders this turn.
Orders are placed in command sequence, so HQ orders first, then platon level, etc etc.
HQ squads can issue 2, normal platoon ( I think) 1. Creed can issue 4--he is the daddy in this book.
LD test to understand. double 1 pass and can even take another order. pass--well....they pass. FAIL-- can act normally. Double 6 they mill about and do nothing.
Options galore everywhere.
Vets are a seprate option. They get booby traps etc = defensive grenades.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Hell yes! I forsee many brutal tank combos...
EDIT: Does this mean they follow squadron rules though? Like immobilised = destroyed?
5394
Post by: reds8n
I assume so.
I didn't see anything that suggested otherwise.
Ahh.... what the hell..
Hydra Flak tank has special targetting that ignores fast cover saves on bikes.
....and skimmers.
168
Post by: foil7102
Oh holy crap, I think I blew my foot off!
Hydra just went from meh... to Whoa....
7375
Post by: BrookM
Oh yes, take that you dodgy bastards!
168
Post by: foil7102
Still though squadron Russ's..... Not too keen on the idea. One biker warboss, charges a single russ you might be looking at three dead tanks.
746
Post by: don_mondo
volair wrote:Uszaty wrote:Getting constantly raped by old codex infantry IG spam, I think most of those rumors are freaking ridiculous. I see no point finishing my CSM army now. I wonder how many people will start their IG armies just to keep up with the metagame...
If you have trouble against the current imperial guard, then your problems are with your own army, not with that of others. Your army obviously needs serious help; I recommend posting your army list on the appropriate forum to get some feedback.
Off topic, but I gotta disagree. The current IG 'dex used as an Infantry spam is fairly good. I went 4-1 at the Baltimore GT with it, and on a 10-game winning streak right now in our local campaign.
And given the rumored costs to IG squads, and the possibility of joining Heavy Weapon squads to standard Infantry Platoons, I see Infantry spam being quite viable under the new codex.
5394
Post by: reds8n
foil7102 wrote:Oh holy crap, I think I blew my foot off!
Hydra just went from meh... to Whoa....
As I said... a LOT of good options in this book. That's without the special orders that stormtroopers have to choose from at the start of the game.
Or the myriad of special characters.
One of them--Chenkov (sp ?similar anyway)-- basically gets to recycle an entire unit of conscripts/penal troops ( think the former judging by his name) who then get to come back on the table good as new and back to full strength,
7375
Post by: BrookM
What kind of orders can storm troopers choose from?
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
I really can't wait to get my hands on this book.
I actually think the tanks are the thing I'm least interested to know about at this point.
Really want to hear more about the infantry options, special characters, and all these crazy new squads.
reds8n, did you notice if the Sentinels were all FA, or some were HS or elites?
600
Post by: Thanatos73
Oh yeah, I'm so getting a Hydra or three now! And did anyone happen to notice if Penal Legion troops can take heavy weapons? It was mentioned earlier that they can take "normal" weapons, just want to know if that includes heavies.
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Post by: reds8n
I assume they could benefit from "normal" orders given by a command squad, but aside from that they get a choice of 3 otehrs..
1 is soemthing like scout and move through cover
1 is something like infiltrate and their first shots count as pinning.
And the 3rd is..... is..... ...err..... something similar.
Sorry.
They can also reroll the dice when deep striking, handy if they jump out of a valk as it hurtles along at top speed.
Penal options are something like:
"Gunfighters"-- shooting is assault 2
thieves/similar-- fleet and FC maybe ?
And some melee one that gives them rending. 
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Post by: AffliKtion
What's with Marbo only having LD 7, thats kinda wierd. Is he Fearless?
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Post by: reds8n
I think so, not sure though.
He deploys like a callidus, and his knife wounds on a 2+ in melee.
Apparently he has been/they use him for, hunting Lictors.
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Post by: AffliKtion
You would think the "one man army" would have a higher leadership than that.
W/E, as long as he kicks so much ass that it doesn't matter.
5394
Post by: reds8n
Pretty certain sentinels were all fast attack. Think the heavier one doesn't get scout though.
Bastonne (sp ?-- much dig that sheet out in future ) is an upgrade character-- think Telion or Snikrot. There's a Catachan one as well ..think he's for the veterans, basically makes them Catachan Devils.
Iron Hand Strachen is pretty awesome too. Fearless, both him and his command squad, power weapon but with an extra d6 AP, and he has an order that can give FC and counter attack to unit/s nearby.
I think we're going to see a lot of very different guard armies.
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Post by: AffliKtion
WHAT? OMG NICE!!!!
There's another character besides Straken and Marbo for Catachan!?!?!?
COUNTER-ATTACK? NIIIIIICEEEEE!
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
That's good news! I'm really interested that there is going to be fierce competition for HS and FA slots, whereas the elites will be more varied according to the style of play.
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Post by: Quintinus
Red S8n, could you please confirm that Stormtroopers are/are not 16 points?
If they are, then it's the only downer for this codex. If they aren't, well, then this codex is AWESOME (x2)!!
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Post by: Tek
"An extra shot order"
Oh great, so we lose Bladestorm as well now.
Gee thanks GW.
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Post by: AffliKtion
Vladsimpaler wrote:Red S8n, could you please confirm that Stormtroopers are/are not 16 points?
If they are, then it's the only downer for this codex. If they aren't, well, then this codex is AWESOME (x2)!!
They are, but it sure as hell isn't a downer.
They get Krak/Frag,Hellguns(Ap3 mind you)/Hellpistol and CCW, Targetters, Infiltrate and Deepstrike FOR FREE, and a couple of special rules.
I think the point increase is fine considering all this stuff you get standard.
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Post by: Gestalt
reds8n wrote: HQ command squads have those plus extra one :
BRING IT DOWN ! SQuad becomes twin linked when shooting at tanks, MCs or units/squadrons thereof.
So we can only give 1 (2 if we can take 2 command HQ?) of those orders a turn? Thats a shame, guess it promotes AT squads over lascannons in platoon squads. No STR/Pen roll bonus on that as rumored? Without that it puts tanks as top AT instead of infantry.
Is the extra shot order only with lasguns? Hellguns or Ripper guns would be nice sometimes with that.
Penal Troopers with rending? Hard to say if thats useful without points/rules. I doubt they would live long enough to strike against anything worth rending though.
I'm hoping that tank commander makes vanquisher worth taking.
Also since your info seems to be very specific, where is it from? Did they 'leak' the codex yet?
Edit: From http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/233463.page it doesnt look like a Vanquisher can fire normal shells. They better be cheaper and/or have a veteran option to increase BS.
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Post by: Wehrkind
Man, the description of the Orders system just gave me a fangasm. That will really go a long way towards making IG more tactical and interesting, much like SoB faith etc.
This is just too exciting!
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Yeah, it looks like there's going to be a wide variety of ways to play IG effectively now.
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Post by: don_mondo
foil7102 wrote:Oh holy crap, I think I blew my foot off!
Hydra just went from meh... to Whoa....
While it's better, it's still not quite a Whoa IMO. ST 7, AP 4. So any 3+ unit is going to still get their normal save. Horde units won't care cause it can't kill enough of them. And if you're considering it for anti-turboboosting bike work, say Ork Nob bikers, well, they still get their FNP. Seems like it's best use will be aginst us, IG, targetting a command squad that's already been whittled down a little with AP 4 so no regular saves and no cover saves and ST 7 so it Instakills........
Only place it really seems useful is against skimmers. Question will be whether or not it works against the Tau upgrade. Should, but who knows for sure? Maybe it's written that it only denies cover for moving Flat Out, in which case it's useless against the Tau upgrade.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
don_mondo wrote:Only place it really seems useful is against skimmers. Question will be whether or not it works against the Tau upgrade. Should, but who knows for sure? Maybe it's written that it only denies cover for moving Flat Out, in which case it's useless against the Tau upgrade.
Well, considering from a fluff perspective that was what it was built to do, it does make a certain amount of sense...
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Post by: don_mondo
Yep, but with the plethora of other Heavy Support choices taht are going to be available to us, the Hydra is ranking way down there on the list, IMO.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
I think it will depend on the build, honestly. And who you're playing most frequently.
I also want to know about the 2 special weapons per squad. I'm seriously considering dropping most of my heavy weapons in favor of more armor, at this point.
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Post by: Mort
AffliKtion wrote:Vladsimpaler wrote:Red S8n, could you please confirm that Stormtroopers are/are not 16 points?
If they are, then it's the only downer for this codex. If they aren't, well, then this codex is AWESOME (x2)!!
They are, but it sure as hell isn't a downer.
They get Krak/Frag,Hellguns(Ap3 mind you)/Hellpistol and CCW, Targetters, Infiltrate and Deepstrike FOR FREE, and a couple of special rules.
I think the point increase is fine considering all this stuff you get standard.
I agree with Affliktion - 16 AP for them sure seems like a bargain to me.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Not too psyched about 16pt Stormtroopers. There's only so far one can go in justifying 16pt/model T3 I3 WS3 A1 Ld7/8 4+ sv models with S3 Rapid fire guns, but I think I'll live with it if the rest of the rumors are true
and I'll still probably field a buttload of ST's just because I like ST' I field 60 now, why not keep 'em.
5951
Post by: Ravajaxe
Thanks reds8n for these delightful news on special rules. Seems to me that I will not miss "obsolete" doctrines so much. IG players will gain a toolbox of tactical options for infantry. Weaker than Eldar and orks they are, but definitely more adaptable than before.
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Post by: aka_mythos
While I understand the justifications for 16pt Stormtroopers, its a bit steep for a unit with inferior stats and lower life expectancy relative to a Space Marine. A few well placed Stormtrooper units is it for me, I can't imagine a full army of these guys doing all that well.
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Post by: Hulksmash
The only thing I need to know is:
-Are the special weapon squads still 6 men?
-Are you allowed to specials in a normal squad?
-Are the heavy weapons squads just 3 heavy weapon bases or are they 3 bases and 4 guard?
That's pretty much it since those are the only concerns about how i'm building my infantry squads.
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Post by: BoxANT
Great update, I have a few points that would like clarification.
1. The order that allows from 2/3 shots, does it only apply to lasguns, or all rapidfire guns (read: plasmaguns)?
2. The order that gives the Heavy Weapons TL when shooting at tank/mc, does it still give +1 against AV?
3. Any more specifics on the Leman Russ rule? Can we fire our ordnance and other weapons?
4. Any specifics on Ogryns/RoughRiders?
5. Do Chimeras for command squads give the Officer an extra order?
6. Confirmations that Commissars grant Stubborn?
7. Specifics on merging platoons?
Got to get my hands on this codex!
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
So we can make the punisher with Stormlord bitz, the eradicator with baneblade bitz, a Vanquisher with Shadowsword bitz.... Which new LR varient is GW no asking you to buy a super heavy in order to build?
I guess the exterminator and the executioner are out no matter how you cut it.
5344
Post by: Shep
Watching this thread all day today...
Just like hulk said... only a few more nebulous questions floating around before I can confidently finish up my guard.
how many men in a heavy weapons squad?
how many men in a special weapons squad?
How do you get sniper rifles for regular guardsmen?
Which squads can deploy as one unit? I've heard just the standard ten man squads can all form up but the special weapons and the heavy weapons will be munsoned.
Does the chimera special rule give an extra order?
Can artillery be taken in squadrons as well as leman russes?
Thanks for sharing S8n. It's really cool of you to do so, and it sounds like I'm going to be very happy when the book hits.
5394
Post by: reds8n
Righto...
I think...:
Special weapons teams are 6 men, 3 can take "stuff".
I believe the Chimera rule is perhaps being confused with the fact that orders can still be isdued whilst embarked--measure from hull-- and can affect ( I think) units embarked upon a tank.
Oh, believe the Chimera fire point has been tweaked, believe that 5 models can shoot out of the top-- it's assumed some are using the hull mounted guns, otehrs lean out etc etc. Weirdly I didn't see anything that therefore made this open topped, but I'm not 100% certain of that.
1. The order that allows from 2/3 shots, does it only apply to lasguns, or all rapidfire guns (read: plasmaguns)?
2. The order that gives the Heavy Weapons TL when shooting at tank/mc, does it still give +1 against AV?
3. Any more specifics on the Leman Russ rule? Can we fire our ordnance and other weapons?
4. Any specifics on Ogryns/RoughRiders?
I think it is only rapid fire weapons, so extra shots with plasma, but not with lascannons etc etc.
2. Don't think so.
3 Yes. Can fire "turret" weapon-- including ordnance and other weapons as well.
4. They are in there, lances are there, ripper guns are there. RR character can give them FC....and I presume something else.
Heavy weapon teams are 2 men on 1 base-- like in the summary sheet.
I think the merging is literally every troop and coommand squad in a platoon just "merge" as one. Great for orders though eh ?
That's pretty much all i can say really for the questions asked. Sorry can't tell you more.
basically you can run a very strong ARMY list in a variety of ways from what I saw, with the option of adding engineseers, individual or units of psykers, priests etc for that added 40K twist.
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Post by: Shep
reds8n wrote:That's pretty much all i can say really for the questions asked. Sorry can't tell you more.
Thanks man, it is totally appreciated.
11470
Post by: AffliKtion
Red, did they fix the Kill points problem?
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Overall, I'm liking the orders, but I'm becoming very worried about points costs... ___ don_mondo wrote:The current IG 'dex used as an Infantry spam is fairly good.
I'll second that, but that's because we get Drop Troops for free... ____ AffliKtion wrote:Vladsimpaler wrote:Red S8n, could you please confirm that Stormtroopers are/are not 16 points?
They are, but it sure as hell isn't a downer. They get Krak/Frag,Hellguns(Ap3 mind you)/Hellpistol and CCW, Targetters, Infiltrate and Deepstrike FOR FREE, and a couple of special rules.
Targeters and AP3 on the Hellgun barely makes the models worth 10 pts, if you stretch the value of an S3 AP3 gun (especially as it cuts to 18" range), so you're paying 6 (closer to 8) pts for Infiltrate, Deep Strike, and Special Rules. 10-pt Inquisition Storms, all the way! And really, if I'm going to pay over 10 pts for a S3 T3 model, I'm taking Sisters with their Sv3+ PA and Faith. The girls are easily worth their points.   Now, if the new Storms were *all* carrying effectively mini-Plasma Guns (R24" S6 AP3 Rapid-Fire) *and* had "FREE" Deep Strike, *then* I could see 16 pts for them. It'd be a perfect suicide squad with the firepower to easily rape any unit when it drops, so it'll pay for itself before it gets wiped out in retribution.  Or, for 16 pts/model, maybe Storms get a "free" Valkyrie? That can transport Scoring Troops? Yeah, that'd be OK. But non-Scoring 16-pt IG Storms with S3 guns?? No freakin' way.  Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Wow, lumbering behemoth includes Ordnance. That's impressive news.
@AfflicKtion - the troops merging into one giant mega-platoon is GW's fix to the Kill points problem.
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Post by: warboss
@reds8n:
what did you mean when you said that orders are given in the shooting phase and can't be given if the unit activated? does that mean that the target of the order can't move in the movement phase? or the person giving the order can't move?
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Post by: Agamemnon2
JohnHwangDD wrote:Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.
I bet you're so proud right about now.
8617
Post by: Hulksmash
I would probably still use a squad or maybe two (depends on what else is in the elite slot) of stormtroopers. 16 points for me is reasonable for what I'd use them for. Their job is to blunt fast strike MEQ units. They'll do that very well for their points even at 16 points.
5394
Post by: reds8n
warboss wrote:@reds8n:
what did you mean when you said that orders are given in the shooting phase and can't be given if the unit activated? does that mean that the target of the order can't move in the movement phase? or the person giving the order can't move?
You couldn't shoot the unit and then use another order on them for example. So you couldn't have a unit fire and then order them to Move move move and run.
NOt sure how this works with regards to the coversave rule, I would assume that you give this order in your own shooting phase to be ready for the enemy phase....
You are very welcome Mr. Shep.
3934
Post by: grizgrin
I actually hope that the new toys in the IG codex are point priced appropriately. I really don't want to see a situation where everything is overpowered/underpointed . I mean yeah, the Guard have been, in GENERAL, getting their heads caved in for a long time, and they deserve their day in the sun just like everyone else. Few armies have earned it like the IG. But it would just be disgusting for them to break stuff as bad as I could see them doing just to push sales. Thankfully, looking at the SM codex, I think they will keep it under control. But the IG do appear to be approaching ascendancy.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
Red, one question from me:
Are Heavy Stubbers an option for squads, and if so, are they Teams(like Lascannon, auto, etc.) or "Specials"(like Plasma, Melta, etc.)?
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Post by: BrookM
It really depends on who writes it (the studio new guy) and who checks up on him when he's done (Jervis)
11
Post by: ph34r
Are heavy weapon squads an option for platoons?
Can you merge together platoons to form, say, 2 large-ish squads, or can you only merge all or nothing? Can you merge the command squads in with the regular squads?
5394
Post by: reds8n
Platuan4th wrote:Red, one question from me:
Are Heavy Stubbers an option for squads, and if so, are they Teams(like Lascannon, auto, etc.) or "Specials"(like Plasma, Melta, etc.)?
In all honesty I couldn't tell you for 100% certain. Apologies.
I don't think so though, I think the heavy weapon options were/are limite to the "classics".
...but... if they are a heavy weapon then I would say it would be logical for them to be treated as a 2w model, like all the others.
4351
Post by: ubermosher
Modified title to reflect update date.
Question: The cover save order... is that +2 if you go to ground, or just for any cover save?
11470
Post by: AffliKtion
+2 to any cover save up to 2+.
6946
Post by: Dexy
Unless it can be given in your opponents turn it seems kinda odd. Oh whats that? You wasted your order on upping their cover? Guess I won't shoot them then!
10123
Post by: BoxANT
Perhaps that is the point?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
You can see what they're doing with this Codex and the Orders System. They are shifting the focus of Guard away from the type of army you design when making a list with Doctrines and changing it so that the unique flavour of the Guard comes during the game with the tactical choices that come via Orders. Of course, while I applaud this attempt at changing the way Guard work, it won't work. Within two weeks to two months the 1 or 2 killer builds will be known by all, and they'll be designed to squeeze as much efficiency and power out of the Orders system as possible.
And I'm 100% with DD on the whole 16 point Storm Trooper thing. They're not worth as much as a Marine - not in a million frakking years. AP3 gun? Means nothing in 5th Ed where cover saves are everywhere. Deep Strike and Infiltrate? They should have had them already for 10 points in the last Codex.
Betcha they have to pay more for their special weapons as well and will still only be able to get 2 per squad.
As I said early on, and John did as well, they are the Possessed of this Codex, the unit that gets a shiny new model kit but pathetic rules. The only other candidate for that in this Codex was the Hellhound, but we don't even know if it is getting a new model.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
H.B.M.C. wrote:As I said early on, and John did as well, they are the Possessed of this Codex, the unit that gets a shiny new model kit but pathetic rules. The only other candidate for that in this Codex was the Hellhound, but we don't even know if it is getting a new model.
What shiny new model kit? Where? There's certainly none on the release schedule that we know of.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
If the 16pt stormtrooper is true (and i really hope it is not), then the other "special rule" they get better be freaking awesome.
6man special weapon squads, not sure how i feel about that. I was hoping for 10man squads, but i guess there has to be a reason for normal infantry squads (hopefully the rumor that they can take 2 specials instead of a heavy is true).
I am optimistic about the Order system, it sounds like it will add a lot to game play and feel of IG. While I am sure that there will be "optimal" setups (like there is with everything), it will not be as restrictive as the doctrine system, and will allow for more tactical flexibility.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Aggy, We don't know what's on the release schedule. Period.
We're pretty sure about some things, like the approximate makeup of the First Wave, but the only thing we know for sure is that a Codex is coming out in May.
And we've seen Greens for things that could be Storm Troopers, and would likely be a Planet Strike release.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
BoxANT wrote:I am optimistic about the Order system, it sounds like it will add a lot to game play and feel of IG. While I am sure that there will be "optimal" setups (like there is with everything), it will not be as restrictive as the doctrine system, and will allow for more tactical flexibility.
It doesn't matter how restrictive it is, the optimal setups will be as narrow as always and the ensuing tournament metagame as degenerate as always.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
Agamemnon2 wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.
I bet you're so proud right about now.
You did see the crying emoticon, right?
____
Hulksmash wrote:I would probably still use a squad or maybe two (depends on what else is in the elite slot) of stormtroopers. 16 points for me is reasonable for what I'd use them for. Their job is to blunt fast strike MEQ units. They'll do that very well for their points even at 16 points.
For 160 pts of basic Storms against 160 pts of basic Marines, it looks like this:
10 Marines double-tap Storms = 20 shots, 13 hits, 9 wounds, 4+ kills...
10 Storms double-tap Marines = 20 shots, 13 hits, 4+ wounds...
For the same points they are equally good at killing each other, but...
- Marines are still Sv3+ armor, and don't care if a S6+ AP4 pie plate drops nearby. Marines get free Flamer and HB, so if they Pod adjacent to the Storms, they auto-win.
- Storms depend on AP3 in a world of 4++ Cover, which means that those Storms shooting at Marines with any cover only kill 2+ Marines, making them only half as good at the shooting they're supposed to (now) be good at.
- Surviving Marines are still WS4 S4 T4 I4 and will easily crush the WS3 S3 T3 I3 Storms in HTH.
2x 6 Inq Storms with 2 Plasma each are a much better use of 160 pts.
4501
Post by: AlexCage
H.B.M.C. wrote:Aggy, We don't know what's on the release schedule. Period.
We're pretty sure about some things, like the approximate makeup of the First Wave, but the only thing we know for sure is that a Codex is coming out in May.
And we've seen Greens for things that could be Storm Troopers, and would likely be a Planet Strike release.
Uhm. Say, has no one pointed out that the little promo sheets at GW has release dates on them?
According to the little sheet, everything in Wave 1 is coming on May 2nd and May 16th, seemingly split. The Valkyrie and sentinel kit are on May 16th, along with the new Battleforces (not certain on that one), the command squads are on May 2nd, along with the new repackaged infantry boxes.
I can't remember when the blisters are coming out, I think the Commissar Lord was 16th (because I was pissed I had to wait for my sekseh new commissar) along with the direct only advisors. The Psyker Primaris was May 2nd, I believe. Don't remember on the ratlings because I just don't care about space hobbits, regardless of how ripped they are.
I may have some dates swapped, but these are definitely the only 2 dates on the sheet, and everything had a date right next to the name.
168
Post by: foil7102
Am I the only one getting more and more worried about the new guard codex? Sure there are all kinds of cool toys but the real meat is looking less and less promising.
1) 16pt Karskin... are they for real
2) 55 points base for a squad... so 5 points cheaper
3) Heavy weapons point drop, but plasma goes up in price, the rest of the specials do not change
4) Increase in cost of the stock Russ. So what if we can take 3 at a time
5) 100 point Valkeries
6) Still overpriced chimera's.
7) Option to warp into one super sqaud. So when I get assaulted I loose 55 guys instead of 10.
8) special characters who are still t3 base
9) Command squads are even bigger targets, still give up 2 kp, and are still super easy to kill.
10) I have seen no info on the cost of command squads... With these new "commands" I am willing to bet the same price or more.
168
Post by: foil7102
JohnHwangDD wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.
I bet you're so proud right about now.
You did see the crying emoticon, right?
____
Hulksmash wrote:I would probably still use a squad or maybe two (depends on what else is in the elite slot) of stormtroopers. 16 points for me is reasonable for what I'd use them for. Their job is to blunt fast strike MEQ units. They'll do that very well for their points even at 16 points.
For 160 pts of basic Storms against 160 pts of basic Marines, it looks like this:
10 Marines double-tap Storms = 20 shots, 13 hits, 9 wounds, 4+ kills...
10 Storms double-tap Marines = 20 shots, 13 hits, 4+ wounds...
For the same points they are equally good at killing each other, but...
- Marines are still Sv3+ armor, and don't care if a S6+ AP4 pie plate drops nearby. Marines get free Flamer and HB, so if they Pod adjacent to the Storms, they auto-win.
- Storms depend on AP3 in a world of 4++ Cover, which means that those Storms shooting at Marines with any cover only kill 2+ Marines, making them only half as good at the shooting they're supposed to (now) be good at.
- Surviving Marines are still WS4 S4 T4 I4 and will easily crush the WS3 S3 T3 I3 Storms in HTH.
2x 6 Inq Storms with 2 Plasma each are a much better use of 160 pts.
They wound on a 5+ John, a 5+.... st3 vs t4.... Try the math that way.
(whoops, math was right, number was wrong.)
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Which just makes John even more correct, Foil.
To channel Stelek for a second:
16 Point Storm Troopers = GW EPIC FAIL!
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Post by: Gestalt
Dexy wrote:Unless it can be given in your opponents turn it seems kinda odd. Oh whats that? You wasted your order on upping their cover? Guess I won't shoot them then!
OK, don't shoot the unit holding the objective which is the unit this order would be used on.
Perhaps storm troopers are priced since they are a deep striking, better than average, flexible unit in an army that is generally the opposite? You can't compare them in a vacuum to other units. The more '1 dimensional' (for lack of a better term) an army is, the more the worth of other elements goes up.
I doubt people will use them to go toe-to-toe with marines, but to replace the Drop Troop Vets with Meltaguns which were cheap for what they did. So you pay 25 points more and get to reroll your deep strike which improves your chance of getting <6" with a melta, and have krak grenades if they live. It may be a little steep price, but I don't think its as big a deal as people are making it.
And if you want to compare their shooting with hellguns, use the +1 shot order, they would be the ones to get it. (with plasmas perhaps too)
Edit: Are we sure Command Squads still give 2 KP? Haven't seen it mentioned but there isnt much reason to keep them as an IC.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
foil7102 wrote:Am I the only one getting more and more worried about the new guard codex? Sure there are all kinds of cool toys but the real meat is looking less and less promising.
Well put. All in all, I'm not expecting to win any more games with the new book as I did with the old one.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Finally some actual confirmations. No dates, but 'May' is good enough really, here is the first wave:
Codex: Imperial Guard
Cadian Command Squad [Box]
Cadian Shock Troops [Box]
Catachan Command Squad [Box]
Catachan Jungle Fighters [Box]
Imperial Guard Valkyrie [Box]
Imperial Guard Sentinel [Box]
Imperial Guard Ratlings [Unknown]
Imperial Guard Primaris Psyker [Blister]
Imperial Guard Regimental Advisors [Blister]
Imperial Guard Lord Commissar [Blister]
Imperial Guard Cadian Battleforce [Box]
Imperial Guard Catachan Battleforce [Box]
So the material that listed 4 boxes and 4 blisters was wrong. There are 8 boxes and 3 blisters, one of them Direct Only, and we don't know what the Ratlings will be in (hopefully a tiny box ala Grimaldus/Gretchin Mobz and not 3-per blister).
BYE
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Post by: Kingsley
JohnHwangDD wrote:Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.
Who says they're getting new plastics?
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Post by: winterman
Yeah, new plastic stormies has never been confirmed. All we have are those greens and it's been sketchy what they actually were (arbites or =I= storm troopers has been the most oft rumored)
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Post by: Scottywan82
DAMMIT! Why must the advisors be direct only? That sucks royal gonads.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Gestalt wrote:Perhaps storm troopers are priced since they are a deep striking, better than average, flexible unit in an army that is generally the opposite? You can't compare them in a vacuum to other units.
I doubt people will use them to go toe-to-toe with marines, but to replace the Drop Troop Vets with Meltaguns which were cheap for what they did. So you pay 25 points more and get to reroll your deep strike which improves your chance of getting <6" with a melta,
And if you want to compare their shooting with hellguns, use the +1 shot order, they would be the ones to get it. (with plasmas perhaps too)
As Deep Strikers, Storms are worth 10 pts, maybe 12 pts, but nowhere near 16 pts. I compare them with ISTs and SoBs, because C: WH isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and I find them to be vastly superior for the points within an IG army. I also compare with Marines, because they cost about the same points, and the Marines have the Sv3+ armor that AP3 is supposed to be good against. Regardless, 16-pt Storms are a distinctly inferior choice that I would consider unplayable.
16-pt Storms compared with 5-6 Vets w/ 3 Meltas? The Vets win hands down every time because they cost less, and can fry T6+ Av2+ MCs, along with AV10+ (AV14+, too) vehicles. And spare wounds are only 8 pts instead of 16 pts.
+1 shot? Do we know that Storms can take this order, or is it only within 12" of the 2KP HQ Command Squad? I think that's an auto-loss in a KP game.
Really, it's hard to overstate just how bad 16+ pt Storms are.
____
Agamemnon2 wrote:foil7102 wrote:Am I the only one getting more and more worried about the new guard codex? Sure there are all kinds of cool toys but the real meat is looking less and less promising.
Well put. All in all, I'm not expecting to win any more games with the new book as I did with the old one.
I am starting to become very seriously concerned that I might win *fewer* games with the new book than I currently do with FREE Scoring Drop Troops and unrestricted Drop Melta Veterans. The more I hear about costs, the less eager I am about the new Guard book.
____
Fetterkey wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:Still, at least it's confirmed that I was right about Storms being the Possessed of the Guard list (old unit with new plastics and hateful rules). Go me.
Who says they're getting new plastics?
They were strongly rumored for Planetstrike.
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Post by: Vassakov
According to my GW release sheet, the Ratlings are a £12 for 5 models, direct only blister.
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Post by: BrookM
H.B.M.C. wrote:Finally some actual confirmations. No dates, but 'May' is good enough really, here is the first wave:
Codex: Imperial Guard
Cadian Command Squad [Box]
Cadian Shock Troops [Box]
Catachan Command Squad [Box]
Catachan Jungle Fighters [Box]
Imperial Guard Valkyrie [Box]
Imperial Guard Sentinel [Box]
Imperial Guard Ratlings [Unknown]
Imperial Guard Primaris Psyker [Blister]
Imperial Guard Regimental Advisors [Blister]
Imperial Guard Lord Commissar [Blister]
Imperial Guard Cadian Battleforce [Box]
Imperial Guard Catachan Battleforce [Box]
So the material that listed 4 boxes and 4 blisters was wrong. There are 8 boxes and 3 blisters, one of them Direct Only, and we don't know what the Ratlings will be in (hopefully a tiny box ala Grimaldus/Gretchin Mobz and not 3-per blister).
BYE
Ratlings are a small boxed set of five.
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Post by: Chaplain Pallantide
Wow 16pt Storm Troopers ARE an EPIC FAIL!
I would have thought, with the Valkyrie and strongly rumored plastic kit, that they would have made ST's the new uber unit!?!
I know for one, I was looking forward to fielding a ST/Valkyrie heavy army, but 160pts for stock troops with no weapon upgrades, plus 100pt transport again with no upgrades? That equals Stupid!
What are the rules for veteran squads? Can you have veterans as troops? Or am I completely boned?
Thanks,
Chappy P!
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Post by: Oldgrue
BrookM wrote:Ratlings are a small boxed set of five.
Ratlings are a small boxed set of still basically useless I suspect.
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Post by: Dexy
Just hope like the Space Marine codex that taking 10 gives free stuff, and that free stuff is a Valk.
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Post by: Chaplain Pallantide
I would have thought that with the Basic guardman droping down to 4pts/model, that veterans would be 6pts-8pts and Storm troopers being 8-10pts max! and I would have thought that Valkyrie's would have had a starting cost around 85-90pts, then max out around 100pts maybe a little over that?
Again Epic fail....
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Post by: Alpharius
Live in hope die in vain!
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Post by: Dexy
Guardsmen aren't even 40 points, they are 40points + the 10points on Frag grenades you can't get rid of!
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Post by: reds8n
) 55 points base for a squad... so 5 points cheaper
50 points base.
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Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
I was kind of hoping this book would be t3h best EVAR so everyone could finally quit griping about lash.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Vassakov wrote:According to my GW release sheet, the Ratlings are a £12 for 5 models, direct only blister.
BrookM wrote:Ratlings are a small boxed set of five.
Thanks for clearing that one up guys.
Oh wait...
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Post by: dumbuket
reds8n wrote:I assume so.
I didn't see anything that suggested otherwise.
Ahh.... what the hell..
Hydra Flak tank has special targetting that ignores fast cover saves on bikes.
....and skimmers.
Does this mean that ork bikers (and nob bikers) will still get the 4+ cover save they always have for being on bike? Because most bikes will be getting a 3+ armour save against the hydra anyway (Eldar bikes, Marine bikes, Chaos bikes) or always have cover (ork and nob warbikers always get a 4+).
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
reds8n wrote: 50 points base.
So they've gone down to 4 points a piece plus 1 point for a Frag Grenade that they don't fething need!!!!!! AHH! This just gets worse.
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Post by: ph34r
reds8n wrote:) 55 points base for a squad... so 5 points cheaper
50 points base.
Wait, seriously? Guard aren't going down to 4 points, only 5? And KP aren't fixed and doctrines are gone?
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Post by: Gestalt
JohnHwangDD wrote:As Deep Strikers, Storms are worth 10 pts, maybe 12 pts, but nowhere near 16 pts. I compare them with ISTs and SoBs, because C:WH isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and I find them to be vastly superior for the points within an IG army. I also compare with Marines, because they cost about the same points, and the Marines have the Sv3+ armor that AP3 is supposed to be good against. Regardless, 16-pt Storms are a distinctly inferior choice that I would consider unplayable.
16-pt Storms compared with 5-6 Vets w/ 3 Meltas? The Vets win hands down every time because they cost less, and can fry T6+ Av2+ MCs, along with AV10+ (AV14+, too) vehicles. And spare wounds are only 8 pts instead of 16 pts.
+1 shot? Do we know that Storms can take this order, or is it only within 12" of the 2KP HQ Command Squad? I think that's an auto-loss in a KP game.
IST don't deep strike, thats why I think comparing them to vets makes more sense, they aren't a line unit. Without drop troops Vets dont deep strike either. You lose a special weapon, and gain a better deep strike. And if ST can't take the order then Vets probably can't either. I am just saying that its not a huge change from what people already did, and I don't think 12 vs 16 points will make the decision of people taking them. If you aren't going to deep strike them, then they probably aren't worth it even at 8 points.
Dexy wrote:Guardsmen aren't even 40 points, they are 40points + the 10points on Frag grenades you can't get rid of!
I read the Frag part, where is the have to pay for them part? They wouldnt say 40 and you HAVE to buy them frag for 10 more, they would just say they are 50 and come with frag.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
@Gestalt: Drop Troops are a FREE Doctrine, and Vets are hands-down the most efficient Elites pick available, so you always remove the 0-1 restriction. 3 units of Deep-Striking Vets with triple Melta (or Plasma) should be the default reference point.
Vets are rumored to link into the Platoon, so they could have it. But the key point is that Vets don't need the order to be awesome - they are already awesome. And gaining an order only makes them even more awesome than 16-pt Storms could ever be.
Besides, we're rumored to get 3 Valks per FA slot. We won't need overpriced Storms in there.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
John, you're acting as though H-Vets aren't changing and are, in fact, getting better with the addition of Orders.
Drop Troops is gone. No more. It's an Ex-Doctrine. Vets without it aren't what they once were.
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
In a previous thread I stated that this book might result in the sale of my $1k+ guard army... It's starting to look that way. CSM ftw!
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
H.B.M.C. wrote:John, you're acting as though H-Vets aren't changing and are, in fact, getting better with the addition of Orders.
Drop Troops is gone. No more. It's an Ex-Doctrine. Vets without it aren't what they once were.
Are you always this pessimistic?
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Actually, the above is downright sunshiney and rosey...
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Post by: Ivan
We're talking about GW here. Pessimism is always warranted.
I think a lot of this stuff is pretty irrelevent unless they give us a VERY dramatic increase in firepower (enough to shut down turn 2 assaults) or something that can perform competently in melee.
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Post by: Moopy
Tek wrote:"An extra shot order"
Oh great, so we lose Bladestorm as well now.
Gee thanks GW.
DA/ BA + others have lost their special rules to the general population a long time ago. This is nothing new.
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Post by: Shep
foil7102 wrote:1) 16pt Karskin... are they for real
Might be overcosted. not sure what the missions entail. Those missions could be pretty outstanding. The one associated with infiltrate gave their first round of shooting something special.
foil7102 wrote:2) 55 points base for a squad... so 5 points cheaper
I guess its actually 50, and they may or may not come with base special/heavy weapons. Frag grenades as standard (for strength 4 rear armor in CC) That's 10 points cheaper, actually 20 if you were crazy enough to buy frag grenades, infantry isn't going to be where guard get their power builds from, regardless of how spiffy the order system is.
foil7102 wrote:3) Heavy weapons point drop, but plasma goes up in price, the rest of the specials do not change
plasma is looking like it will have a huge benefit from a particular order.
foil7102 wrote:4) Increase in cost of the stock Russ. So what if we can take 3 at a time
The basic russ just got a ridiculously powerful special rule. And under 5th ed rules, the basic russ had recently become VERY difficult to kill, with a pillow of guardsmen blocking any short ranged melta shot, and their firepower going up drastically, look to the armor spam to be our first 'complained about' list.
foil7102 wrote:5) 100 point Valkeries
You might have something. Valkyries might not be the most cutting edge unit. I'm still unsure of their full weapons loadout.
foil7102 wrote:6) Still overpriced chimera's.
55 points is a steal for a chimera. Armor 12 front, two longer range heavy weapons, 5 people can fire out the fire point? Will be crucial to keep command squads alive when not 'combat squadded' for KP missions.
foil7102 wrote:7) Option to warp into one super sqaud. So when I get assaulted I loose 55 guys instead of 10.
But didn't you buy a commissar? Aren't you stubborn with a high leadership? You aren't required to make your platoons 55 models strong, or to combine them. And you only combined them in an annihilation mission, and your opponent just went after your troop choice during a KP mission leaving your truly deadly units all alone. he can consolidate his mighty D6 inches in front of your untold numbers of pie plates and souffles.
foil7102 wrote:8) special characters who are still t3 base
I just don't see this as being a big deal. unless they were expected to wade into nasty close combats.
foil7102 wrote:9) Command squads are even bigger targets, still give up 2 kp, and are still super easy to kill.
Who says they are worth 2 kp. I haven't seen anything to suggest the officer is an indy. And they aren't hard to kill if you invest in a 55 point chimera, they stay inside till it dies then spill out of the back.
foil7102 wrote:10) I have seen no info on the cost of command squads... With these new "commands" I am willing to bet the same price or more.
We haven't seen the cost. I'm not expecting anything drastic up or down. What I'm curious about is their access to special/heavy weaponry. Will they have a role outside of their one order a turn? I'm pretty sure they will, will medics/standard bearers/voxes be cost efficient? Hopefully, but it won't be vital to making a tourney guard list. if they were shockingly expensive, like over 100 points, then they might be problematic. But I just don't forsee that happening.
I don't mean to completely focus on your post and dissect it, but you just brought up a lot of concerns that I've seen, all of which aren't really anything to be concerned about.
If you can combine smallish infantry platoons to one unit, officers are not ICs, and vehicles are taken in squadrons, then the KP issue is solved as far as I am concerned.
Assuming 25 men platoons run around 200 add a chimera for the command thats 750 in troops if you take 3x platoons, Spend ~200 on an HQ/chimera, 6x leman russes in three squads of 2 could fill out a list, for a total of 11 KP. That is impressive for any list, particularly one that has transports.
For a more aggressive brand of play, you could run 2x 25 man platoons with chimeras, make the 6 russes in 2x squads and buy a manticore and some amount of heavy sentinels. Still gives the same number of KP, but has a marked increase in firepower. That list has 7+d3 pie per turn, (remember when people complained about iron warriors having 4 pie plates a turn?) 9-13 heavy weapons (not counting russ sponsons), and 6 individual scoring units with access to three armor 12 transports.
I'm not concerned about guards power level at all, the codex sounds like its full of fun choices to make, people will see things differently and come to new and different power lists. One will rise to the top as is unavoidable in any game system, but there looks to be plenty of fun things to do in the codex, simply based on these rumors.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Cheese Elemental wrote:Are you always this pessimistic?
Give me a fething break. There's nothing pessimistic about what I said. Drop Troops (and every other Doctrine) isn't in the Codex. That's not pessimistic. That's a fact. And I can't get past the simple incongruity of DD's argument when he's saying that Vets are better than 16 point Storm Troopers when, in a month's time, Vets won't do what Vet's do now, making the comparison useless. I completely agree with DD that 16 point Stormies are a complete joke, but comparing them to a unit that in a few weeks will cease to be doesn't help matters and it doesn't prove much either.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Ah, that reminds me.
Something we're all forgetting about the 40 point vs 50 point Guard Squad. Yeah, having Frag Grenades we neither want nor need sucks, but the price of the squad will no doubt include the Sergeant, who, according to the summary, is Ld8.
So they're not 5 point Guardsmen... they're 4 point Guardsmen with Frag Grenades and a boost to Ld8 for +10 points.
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Post by: Vaktathi
event at 55pts, the Chimera isn't a "steal". It's far and away better than it currently is, no doubt about it, but it's still a bit much considering what it's transporting (wet noodle guardsmen), the AV10 side armor, BS3, rear-only hatch, etc.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
At 55 pts, the Chimera is only overpriced by around 10 pts, as opposed to being nearly twice what it should cost.
At 55 pts, a dual gun BS3 Chimera should be AV12/12/10...
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Post by: Mickhedd
Vaktathi wrote:event at 55pts, the Chimera isn't a "steal". It's far and away better than it currently is, no doubt about it, but it's still a bit much considering what it's transporting (wet noodle guardsmen), the AV10 side armor, BS3, rear-only hatch, etc.
See, I thought that too and then I thought of a Devil Fish, which is 90 pts. And, yes, it gets a lot of awesome stuff for 35 pts more but if you took the BS and the stronger side armor away...it'd be a 55 WAIT A MINUTE!!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Devil Fish are over costed, so that's not a good comparison. Why are Devil Fish overcosted? Because they come from a time when Rhinos were still 50 points and Chimeras were 70 without guns.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Mickhedd wrote:Vaktathi wrote:event at 55pts, the Chimera isn't a "steal". It's far and away better than it currently is, no doubt about it, but it's still a bit much considering what it's transporting (wet noodle guardsmen), the AV10 side armor, BS3, rear-only hatch, etc.
See, I thought that too and then I thought of a Devil Fish, which is 90 pts. And, yes, it gets a lot of awesome stuff for 35 pts more but if you took the BS and the stronger side armor away...it'd be a 55 WAIT A MINUTE!!
Don't forget that they carry side hatches through and for 85pts they get a constant 4+ cover save even when stationary. Side hatches are *huge*, meaning they don't have to expose the weakest armor to disembark troops into a firing position like the Chimera does.
That said, the Devilfish is also a touch expensive for what it does.
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Post by: George Spiggott
Has anyone spotted if Carapace armour is still availabe and if Stortroopers (or similar) can be taken as troops?
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Post by: BDJV
reds8n wrote:
3. Any more specifics on the Leman Russ rule? Can we fire our ordnance and other weapons?
3 Yes. Can fire "turret" weapon-- including ordnance and other weapons as well.
If only my Demonically possessed Defilers could do that, they might be worth fielding.
I actually think I'll finish my Guard army now, most of the new rules look great.
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Post by: Vaktathi
George Spiggott wrote:Has anyone spotted if Carapace armour is still availabe and if Stortroopers (or similar) can be taken as troops?
Carapace for platoons is apparently gone, but Stormtroopers can still supposedly be taken as Troops.
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Post by: Dave47
I think it's premature to say that the new list is going to be weaker than the current list. But I acknowledge the possibility. Drop Troopers is crazy-strong, and helps make up for a lot of the shortcomings of the current IG codex.
That said, doctrines are going to significantly increase the power of IG infantry. Twin-linking versus tanks and MCs represents a huge bump in the efficacy of AT squads that greatly reduces the threat of a lot of popular units like Lash Princes. And if Chimeras get 5 fire ports without being open topped, Veterans and PHQs won't need Deep Strike so much.
Given these improvements to infantry and Chimeras, I'm not quite "getting" more expensive tanks. With everything else getting cheaper and better, I don't quite get why tanks would balance their improvements by becoming more expensive. Especially since those improvements are already balanced by variable movement, which can be a big deal for Tank Shocking and contesting objectives. Squadron rules seem ill suited for units as expensive as Leman Russes, so I don't see myself taking more than three tanks in a "serious" game.
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Post by: Quintinus
In these last 2-3 pages, I have gone from excited and hopeful, to disappointed and annoyed.
The heck with this.
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Post by: Feldmarshal Goehring
All of this stuff is starting to sound really great. I suppose that this is because the book has actually been seen. The pre-release articles and ads have been sent out. The rumors are materializing into an exciting new day for all of us 'old guard.'
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
sooo, if anybody has a PDF please PM me w/ link, thanks.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I don't think a PDF is out yet. I'd check 4Chan, but I'm at work and don't want to get sacked.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Guard armies are going to function differently then what we're used too but these rumors terrify me. They are sounding like orcs with the taus guns and all of the eldars stupid special rules.
They even get a lictor. And rending gaunts. Superdevastators in cheap high armor tanks. Oh and space marines. They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.
Tier one is getting a new friend in a month and a half.
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Post by: Vaktathi
ShumaGorath wrote:They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.
That are T3 S3 I3 WS3 Ld7/8 with S3 guns and a 4+ armor save. They have a lot of cool abilities but are likely to end up as one-shot units most of the time. I'd take basic CSM's any day of the week for overall effectiveness from the rumors I've heard. I'd rather they had left them at 10 and just given them assault 3 18" AP5 hellguns personally. 16 just makes them sound like the IG's Possessed/Vanguard.
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Post by: Gestalt
H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't think a PDF is out yet. I'd check 4Chan, but I'm at work and don't want to get sacked.
4chan is the first place to look for a leaked PDF? Did I miss something?
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Gestalt wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't think a PDF is out yet. I'd check 4Chan, but I'm at work and don't want to get sacked.
4chan is the first place to look for a leaked PDF? Did I miss something?
Whats 4chan? Also no, when it hits 4chan, wherever or whatever that is, it will be noisy.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
ChickenLittle wrote:They even get a lictor. And rending gaunts. Superdevastators in cheap high armor tanks. Oh and space marines. They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.
I also heard a rumour that Vanquishers can shoot through hills!!!
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Post by: ShumaGorath
H.B.M.C. wrote:ChickenLittle wrote:They even get a lictor. And rending gaunts. Superdevastators in cheap high armor tanks. Oh and space marines. They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.
I also heard a rumour that Vanquishers can shoot through hills!!!
Yeah, and there can be nine of them.
So lets count this list so far. All LRs are squadrons and its not limited. The plasmaruss exists. The deathstrike exists. Penal troops have gaunt statlines and rending for less points. Heavy sentinals are apparenltly as hardy as dreadnauts with the same gun options. Every unit can have rediculous anti tank orders or the ability to become pathfinders/lictors whenever someone shouts at them. Oh, and they all get to turn into one giant kill point.
None of this sounds a bit extreme to you? I was happy to switch to my nice happy medium tier marine codex from the tyranid abomination. But I think that was the low point on the GW power rollercoaster.
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Post by: Gestalt
Most of that would be extreme, but you are exaggerating almost all of them and mentioning none of the drawbacks.
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Post by: BoxANT
Argh my brain!
The new codex will be overpowered!
The new codex will be underpowered!
Quick, I need someone to tell me what to think about the new codex that hasn't been released yet!
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Gestalt wrote:Most of that would be extreme, but you are exaggerating almost all of them and mentioning none of the drawbacks.
Which drawbacks? The ones where everything but the russes drop in points? Or the one where the russes get better armor?
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Post by: Vaktathi
ShumaGorath wrote:Gestalt wrote:Most of that would be extreme, but you are exaggerating almost all of them and mentioning none of the drawbacks.
Which drawbacks? The ones where everything but the russes drop in points? Or the one where the russes get better armor?
To take Russ tanks en masse they must be taken in squadrons, meaning one nob with powerfist getting into one can kill all three in one go quite easily.
Heavy Sentinels lack the side armor, BS, CC ability or Drop Pod potential of Dreads.
Squads have to pass their Ld8 leadership to go on orders, and to take advantage of "becoming pathfinders" they have to pin themselves. When combining into one squad, an entire platoon can be easily eliminated by one assault from almost anything and loses the ability to split fire.
As for penal troops with Gaunt statlines, nobody is going to argue that both Gaunts and Hormagaunts are horrifically overpriced.
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Post by: Gestalt
All LRs are squadrons and its not limited.
-~600 points for 3 tanks, as a squadron Immobilized = Destroyed
The plasmaruss exists.
-again points
The deathstrike exists.
-yeah this is just silly, it belongs in apoc
Penal troops have gaunt statlines and rending for less points.
-they have a random roll like possessed, no one will use them
Heavy sentinals are apparenltly as hardy as dreadnauts with the same gun options.
-AV12/10/10 no scout, 1x BS3 weapon Dreads are 12/12/10 with 2x BS4 weapons
Every unit can have rediculous anti tank orders or the ability to become pathfinders/lictors whenever someone shouts at them.
-1 unit per turn gets twin linked heavy weapons is not ridiculous, units going to ground (not shooting) and getting a bonus to the cover save is not extreme
Oh, and they all get to turn into one giant kill point.
-which still has as many KP as other armies and all run away/sweeping advance at once and have to shoot at one target. Really? You think IG with KP is a guard advantage?
9598
Post by: Quintinus
ShumaGorath wrote:Guard armies are going to function differently then what we're used too but these rumors terrify me. They are sounding like orcs with the taus guns and all of the eldars stupid special rules.
OOh, scary 16 point T3 4+ save troops! Tremble before them!  They even get a lictor. And rending gaunts.
If they follow the current trend, Marbo will be around 300 points and the gaunts will be around 10 each.
Superdevastators in cheap high armor tanks. Oh and space marines. They have space marines. Storm troopers: better space marines with all the special rules and more attacks and better options.
Tier one is getting a new friend in a month and a half.
Sorry to burst your bubble of exaggeration, but following the current trend this won't come true. P.S. There's this old dude who lives within a mile of my house who has these "the end is near" signs. You should go hang out with him sometime, it seems that you have similar interests.
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