10123
Post by: BoxANT
Oh, that PlasmaCannon Sentinel looks awesome 
Please don't be over 65 points!! (but honestly, I think they'll be 80).
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Post by: Ivan
I wonder how that missile pod would look mounted on the roof of an enclosed Sent. I wonder if the missile pod will be worth bothering with.
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Post by: Raxmei
Ivan wrote:I wonder how that missile pod would look mounted on the roof of an enclosed Sent. I wonder if the missile pod will be worth bothering with.
It's just a missile launcher. You're probably better off with the cheaper multilaser or autocannon.
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Post by: ph34r
H.B.M.C. wrote:Apologies for having to link to 4Chan to show these:
Or you could save them and upload them somewhere like tinypic, considering all images there will be gone after a day at most.
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Post by: Che-Vito
< Taken by the void dragon. >
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Post by: Squig_herder
Has anyone seen that GW: UK website [Aussie one isnt worth anything nowdays, bloody fix it GW!!!] that they have advanced orders for IG now? Have a look: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1430057&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k
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Post by: Raxmei
BoxANT wrote:Oh, that PlasmaCannon Sentinel looks awesome
Please don't be over 65 points!! (but honestly, I think they'll be 80).
A nice fellow who refuses to give exact points costs says the armored sentinel is about half again as much as a scout sentinel and loses the scout and move through cover USR. If the plasma cannon costs as much as the lascannon that should end up costing about 65 points.
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Post by: Squig_herder
Dakka foks, here it is, a super large leak from warseer and others:
General info
Release date is 2 May 2009.
The new codex will be 104 pages long.
Rumoured to include at least 2 waves of releases. It is unclear when the second wave will appear.
Rules
Army-wide Special Rules
Doctrines
Doctrines may have been replaced by Platoons options. No details on exactly what upgrades are available have emerged as yet. Recent codex sightings indicate this may be far more limited than first thought.
Orders
reds8n broke the news on Orders with the following:
Originally Posted by reds8n View Post
I believe that command squads will in fact be able to give actual orders to their troops-- I assume perhaps only the ones under their direct command perhaps ? These have various affects, the ones I heard about being one that reduces their chance to hit ( for guard ! ) but ignores/lowers cover saves.
.... and one that in affect puts the platoon onto overwatch.
Company Commander can issue up to two Orders to any squad with Vox or within 12".
Platoon Commander can issue one Order to any squad in their platoon with Vox or within 6". Some squad leaders can issue Orders to their own squad. Supposedly a double 6 on the Orders Ld test will prevent any further Orders being issued that turn.
Orders are given at the start of the shooting phase. The Company Commander HAS to place their orders first, then Platoon Commanders and so on. If a unit is "activated" before it receives an order then it cannot benefit from one that turn. The receiving unit has to pass a LD test with the following affects:
Double one - They follow the Order and can be given another Order
Pass the test – They follow the Order
Fail the test – They fail the Order, but can act as normal
Double six - They do nothing.
Platoon Commander Orders are:
“First rank fire, second rank” - + 1 shot for Rapid Fire weapons (so 3 at 12", 2 at 13-24)
"Down!" - Go To Ground with +1 cover save, i.e. +2 total and the unit can't shoot for that turn.
“Move, move, move!” – Allows the squad to roll more dice when they run and take highest.
Company Commander Orders (all of the Platoon Commander ones plus):
"Bring it down" - Twin Links all weapons shooting at tanks, MCs including units or squadrons of them.
Some form of rallying Order which rallies a unit or even unpins them. This possibly works after they have used the “Down!” Order that round.
Overwatch has been rumoured and would supposedly allow them a round of shooting during the enemy’s shooting phase at the cost of not shooting and assaulting next turn (effectively going to ground).
Miscellaneous
Some squads will supposedly have access to heavy flamers, but it is not clear which ones.
All vehicles supposedly come in squadrons of 3 with subtypes mixable, i.e. Russes, Hounds and Artillery. Deathstrikes do not come in squadrons. This means you could have a squadron of 2 LRBTs and a LR Demolisher
Special Characters
Creed and Kell take the place of Officer and Standard Bearer (probably) in a Command Squad. Can issue up to 4 Orders per turn, including a unique order "For Cadia!" that bestows Fearless and Furious Charge on a unit. He allows one unit to gain Scout (in a similar fashion to Sicarius' special rule).
Usarker Creed 4 4 3 3 3 3 3 10 4+
Jarran Kell 4 4 3 3 2 4 2 8 4+
Captain Chenkov can upgrade his Platoon's Conscript squad for 75 points, allowing the Special Order "Send in the next wave!" letting the squad be removed immediately from the table and enter from the table edge at full strength next turn.
Captain Chenkov 4 4 3 3 2 3 2 9 4+
Commissar Yarrick’s eye is a Hell Pistol.He has a forcefield that “does something a bit weird”. Not the old “reduces the strength” but it's similar.
Commissar Yarrick 5 5 3 4 3 3 3 10 4+
Artillery Sergeant Harker is most likely a Catachan upgrade for veterans who then count as having defensive grenades (booby traps)
Artillery Sergeant Harker 4 4 4 3 1 3 2 8 5+
Lukas Bastonne is a Stormtrooper upgrade who allows his squad to always try to rally regardless of casualties etc.
Lukas Bastonne 4 4 3 3 1 3 2 10 4+
Iron Hand Straken is a Company Commander choice. He and his Command Squad are Fearless, and he has a special Order which gives a unit (or possibly units) nearby Furious Charge and Counter Attack.
Colonel Straken 5 4 6 4 3 3 3 9 3+
Sly Marbo is a separate Elites choice, and deploys pretty much like a Callidus assassin. He also supposedly wounds on a 2+ in assault.
Sly Marbo 5 5 3 3 2 5 4 7 5+
Mogul Kamir is an upgrade to Rough Riders and gives them Furious Charge
Moghol Kamir 4 3 3 3 2 3 3 8 5+
Captain Al’rahem lets a unit fire one volley in the shooting phase and then Run. He may be able to do it out of sequence.
Captain Al’rahem 4 4 3 3 2 3 2 9 5+
Nork Dedog has a rule that as he dies in assault he auto hits the enemy X times in a frenzy before passing out. He comes round later and asks if they won .
Nork Dedog 4 3 5 5 3 3 4 8 4+
There is supposedly a tank commander upgrade character too who has to ride in a Leman Russ. He cannot disembark if the Tank is destroyed.
HQ
Company Commander
Can reportedly be upgraded for x-amount to get Storm Troopers as Troops
Company Commander 4 4 3 3 3 3 3 9 5+
Primaris Psyker
Powers:
'Lightning Arc' - S6 Assault 2D6
'Nightshroud' - Enemy has to pass a Ld test to shoot at his unit.
Primaris Psyker 4 4 3 3 2 3 3 9 5+
Commissar Lord
Newer rumours say he is described as having lots of inspirational powers (possibly fearless) and will supposedly allow more freedom in selecting Commissars for other squads.
Commissar Lord 5 5 3 3 3 3 3 10 5+
Inquisitor and Retinue
Very early rumours pointed to an entry for IG as an HQ choice, which would supposedly appear much like the elites from the current Daemon Hunters/Witch Hunters books. This has since been completely blown out of the water. THEY ARE NOT IN THE CODEX.
Regimental Advisors
Officer of the Fleet
Forces opponent to subtract -1 from all reserve rolls
Officer of the Fleet 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+
Astropath
Add +1 to reserves rolls. I think it says they can do something with orders too, although the pic is unclear.
Astropath 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+
Master of Ordnance
Can call in a S9 AP3 Ordnance shot with unlimited range if he doesn't move that turn
Master of Ordnance 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+
Other Advisors
Commissars
Bestow Stubborn on the Command or Infantry squad they are attached to and still execute leaders who fail to pass Ld tests. Once a Commissar Lord is taken they have more freedom and there can be more of them. They are also supposedly cheaper (almost half their current price). Some text seen near a pic of Commissars at Open Day appears to say Commissars will have an affect on Orders, possibly making it easier to use them.
Commissar 4 4 3 3 1 3 2 9 5+
Ministorum Priest
Special Rules not known
Ministorum Priest 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 7 5+
Sanctioned Psyker
Sanctioned Psykers are rumoured to appear in squads, but it is unclear if they will no longer be available as advisors.
Sanctioned Psyker 2 3 2 3 1 3 1 9 5+
There are apparently a few other things that you can give the Command Squad to affect the army. No further details are available as yet.
Elites
Psyker Battle Squad
1 Overseer, and between 4-9 Psykers (number not certain). Two powers rumoured so far.
“Soulstorm” - Range 36, S=number of psykers in the unit, AP d6, Heavy 5" blast.
A focused attack that drops enemy LD=number of psykers in the squad.
The Overseer or Mentor will shoot D3 of them on any Perils of the Warp result.
Overseer (Mentor) 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 9 5+
Sanctioned Psyker 2 3 2 3 1 3 1 9 5+
Stormtroopers
The assumption has been made based on the WIP Stormtrooper mini that Stormtroopers will be able to take shotguns this has since been refuted, with the new rumour being they are for WH Arbites-style Stormtroopers.
You can supposedly have a Storm Trooper Squad/Platoon as a Troops choice (not clear if this means both or one of), but this is reliant on an upgrade to the Officer leading the army.
16 points each. Hellgun, Hellpistol, CCW, frag and krak grenades, carapace armour and targeters as standard.
Have both Infiltrate and Deep Strike for free. Can take 2 special weapons.
'Special Ops' Special Rule picked before battle gives a bonus to one of the two deployment types:
- Recon/Sabotage - Scout and Pinning the first time they shoot.
- Deep Strike – Not known what the bonus is at the moment.
They can supposedly re-roll the scatter dice when deep striking. This may or may not be the Spec ops bonus for DSing.
Stormtrooper Sergeant 3 4 3 3 1 3 2 8 4+
Stormtrooper 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 4+
Hellgun 18 3 3 Rapid Fire
Hellpistol 6 3 3 Pistol
Techpriest Enginseer
Special Rules not known
Techpriest 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 8 3+
Servitor 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 8 4+
Ogryns
Rumoured to have Furious Charge
Bone head 4 3 5 5 3 2 4 7 5+
Ogryn 4 3 5 5 3 2 3 6 5+
Ripper gun 12 5 - Assault 3
Ratlings
3-10 per squad. 10 points each. They supposedly have Stealth and Infiltrate. Something else has been rumoured about them having 'snacks'. No news yet on what affect this may have.
Ratling 2 4 2 2 1 4 1 6 5+
Sniper Rifle 36 X 6 Heavy 1, Sniper
Sniper Squads
Can supposedly infiltrate, get stealth, range finders and all models in the squad have sniper rifles and BS 4. A new rumour says they will also get camo cloaks. They do not appear as a separate entry in the leaked summary. If they do appear, it would probably be as an upgrade to Veteran Squads, as they are the only Guardsmen with BS4 in the summary.
Troops
Imperial Guard Platoons
Platoons will supposedly be structured as follows:
1 command squad and 2 infantry squads
Plus
0-3 Infantry squads
0 - 5 heavy weapons squads
0 - 2 special weapons squads
0 or 2-5 Conscript squads
The Conscripts form one unit of 20-50 men and the Infantry squads can be merged to one's heart's desire (counting as 1 KP), but everything else is set in the unit sizes. There is apparently no maximum number of squads. The entire platoon with all these squads will only take one Troops selection in the FOC.
Platoon commander 4 4 3 3 1 3 2 8 5+
Sergeant 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 8 5+
Guardsmen 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+
Heavy Weapons team 3 3 3 3 2 3 2 7 5+
Conscript 2 2 3 3 1 3 1 5 5+
Platoon Command Squads can take Standards giving them +1 Combat Res in assaults.
You can have a potential 21 HW teams in one Troops slot: 1 in the Command Squad (1), 1 in each of 5 Infantry squads (5) and 3 in each of 5 Heavy weapon squads (15). Heavy weapon squad basic armament is 3 mortars for 60 points total. Other weapon fit outs can then apparently be upgraded at additional points cost. Heavy weapons teams will be a single 2W entity, like a Space Marine Attack Bike.
Special Weapons teams will be 6-man teams.
Platoons will supposedly benefit from a special rule called "Platoon Drill" which grants the ability to ignore any other squad within the Platoon for the purposes of determining the enemy's cover save. Basically the Guard squads will get a cover save when being shot at through a squad in the same Platoon, but their enemy will not get one when the squad shoots back. This will supposedly only work if the Vox network is still intact.
Platoons may be able to attach sentinels, chimeras, and hellhounds as support vehicles. Support Vehicles would still take up a FOC spot, but become part of the platoon and so would benefit from “Platoon Drill” and other Platoon-wide rules.
Points have been rumoured to be 50pts for an Infantry squad (10 men with Sgt, HB & Flamer). Another rumour says the basic squad load-out will be 10 Lasguns or 9 Lasguns and a Laspistol for 40pts.
Veteran Squads
Have now become a Troops Choice. Rules are apparently fairly similar to now.
Veteran Sergeant 3 4 3 3 1 3 2 8 5+
Veteran 3 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+
Veteran heavy weapons team 3 4 3 3 2 3 2 7 5+
Penal Battalion
50 pts. 1 Penal Guard and 9 Penal Legionnaires. Equipped with a Lasgun and close combat weapon. Stubborn.
They also roll for their 'Crime' at the start of their game and get appropriate bonuses:
Psychos: better fighters. Not sure what this entails.
Scroungers: start with more gear. (probably grenades, maybe pistols)
Gunslingers: Shooting becomes Assault 2.
Chaosftw on Heresy online says:
Quote On a 1-2 they get extra shots (basically always count as double tapping) on a 3-4 then get fleet and furious charge, and on a 5-6 they get an extra dice when fighting in Close combat and gain RENDING.
Penal Guard 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 8 5+
Penal Legionnaire 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 8 5+
Transports
Chimera
55 pts. Tank, Amphibious, Mobile Command Vehicle. Multi-laser, hull Heavy Bolter, searchlight and smoke launchers. Options: Upgrade Multi-laser to Heavy Flamer or Heavy Bolter - free; hull Heavy Bolter to Heavy Flamer - free; Storm Bolter or Heavy Stubber +10pts, Hunter-Killer Missile +10pts, Dozer Blade +10 pts, Extra Armour +15pts, Camo Netting +20pts.
Chimera 3 12 10 10
Valkyrie
Fast Skimmer. Apparently 90-100pts. Troops may disembark at any point in its movement, but more than 12" and they take a dangerous terrain check. Was rumoured to allow embarked troops to deploy after deep striking. Another rumour says they will be able to DS more accurately like Drop Pods. It was originally rumoured to only be a transport for Stormtroopers, but more recently it has been said it will be available to all units that have access to Chimeras. This may be tied to a Special Character.
Valkyrie 3 12 12 10
Hellfury Missile 72 4 5 Heavy 1, Large Blast, One use Only
Fast Attack
Rough Riders
Special Rules not known
Rough Rider Sergeant 3 3 3 3 1 3 2 8 5+
Rough Riders 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 5+
Recon Sentinels
Retain Scout, but only have the option to be open topped.
Recon Sentinel 3 3 5 10 10 10 3 1
Spearhead Sentinels
Heavy Support Sentinels will supposedly lose Scout, but will be enclosed and have options for heavy weapons such as the Plasma Cannon.
Spearhead Sentinel 3 3 5 12 10 10 3 1
Hellhound
Hellhound 3 12 12 10
Inferno Cannon Template* 6 4 Heavy 1
Devildog
Devildog 3 12 12 10
Melta Cannon 24 8 1 Small blast, Melta
Banewolf
Banewolf 3 12 12 10
Chemical Cannon Template 1 3 Poison (2+)
Valkyrie Vendetta
The “up-gunned” version of the Valkyrie. 1-3 as a single Fast Attack choice
Vendetta 3 12 12 10
Multiple Rocket Launcher 24 4 6 Heavy 1, Large Blast.
Hellstrike Missile 72 8 3 Ordnance 1, One use only
Heavy Support
Leman Russ
Russ’ have been rumoured to cost 150 points with increased Sponson cost, so a LR will supposedly cost 180 points with 3 HB.
They have been rumoured to come with a hull heavy bolter, smoke launchers and searchlight as standard. All variants will have all the sponson options, except apparently heavy flamer sponsons which are gone now.
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ 3 14 13 10
Battlecannon 72 8 3 Ordnance , Large Blast
Leman Russ Exterminator
Exterminator 3 14 13 10
Exterminator Autocannon 48 7 4 Heavy 4, Twin Linked
Leman Russ Vanquisher
Vanquisher 3 14 13 10
Vanquisher cannon 72 8 2 Heavy 1 +1D6 penetration.
Leman Russ Eradicator
Eradicator 3 14 13 10
Eradicator Nova Cannon 36 6 4 Heavy 1, Large blast Ignores cover saves.
Leman Russ Demolisher
Demolisher 3 14 13 11
Demolisher Cannon 24 10 2 Ordnance , Large Blast
Leman Russ Punisher
Punisher 3 14 13 11
Punisher Gatling Cannon 24 5 - Heavy 20
Leman Russ Executioner
Executioner 3 14 13 11
Executioner Plasma Cannon 36 7 2 Heavy 3, small blast.
Lumbering Behemoth rule - The turret gun does not count towards the number of weapons fired (Ordnance or not) but cruising speed is only 6+D6" instead of 12".
Basilisk
Open Topped. Can possibly be enclosed
Basilisk 3 12 10 10
Earthshaker Cannon 36-240 9 3 Ordnance , Large Blast
Medusa
Open Topped. Can possibly be enclosed
Medusa 3 12 10 10
Medusa Cannon 36 10 2 Ordnance , Large Blast.
Medusa Bunker Buster 48 10 1 Heavy 1, Blast.
Hydra
Hydra 3 12 10 10
Hydra Autocannon 72 7 4 Heavy 2
It is assumed each Hydra will have multiple Hydra Autocannon (either 2 Twin Linked or 4)
It supposedly has special tracking systems that ignores cover saves for skimmers and bikes going fast etc
Colossus
Open Topped. Can possibly be enclosed
Colossus 3 12 10 10
Colossus Siege mortar 24-240 6 3 Ordnance , Large Blast
Griffon
Open Topped. Can possibly be enclosed
Griffon 3 12 10 10
Griffon Mortar 12-48 6 4 Ordnance barrage, Large Blast\
Manticore
Manticore 3 12 10 10
Storm Eagle Rockets 24-120 10 4 Ordnance 1D3, Barrage, Large Blast
Deathstrike
Deathstrike 3 12 10 10
Deathstrike Missile 12-unlimtd 10 1 Ordnance barrage, D3+3” Blast, one Use only
Special Rules:
- Cannot be fired on Turn 1. Each turn roll a D6, weapon can be fired on a 6. Modifiers: +1 per turn, -1 for each crew stunned or weapon destroyed results sustained. Can always be fired on the roll of a natural 6.
- Any weapon destroyed results received are ignored, the only effect they have is to delay the launch.
- Hits on vehicles in the area of the Deathstrike Missile are not calculated at half strength but at S10.
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Post by: ph34r
That is indeed a good summary of the rumors so far but I see nothing new in the last few days.
686
Post by: aka_mythos
Thats the summary that has the colossus without barrage
10123
Post by: BoxANT
Yeah those a more updated version on WarSeer that has rumored rules on RR, priests, ect.
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Post by: Quintinus
focusedfire wrote:Vladsimpaler wrote:Evidence, please? Please don't talk about how using evidence when you don't even provide your own.
In fact I do believe that this will make halfway across the board. AV14 does that to you. That's why this codex is Leman Russ spam.
Which army is shooting you up? Am I using the vendetta and 2-less stormies and who strikes first? The russ and infantry are very slow. 260 points of Tau would do the trick as would several other combos I can think of. I didn't list them because I didn't want to wander off into a discussion about how many armies can do what. But rather, wanted to focus on what the IG could potentially do.
Hmm, 10 T3 4+ save troops? Guess what, 260 points of practically anything will annihilate a Vendetta and the stormtroopers.
If you want we could each playtest the storms vs the russ in our home areas and see what happens in a best of 5 rounds. If I can run the unit at less thsn 10 men then it would leave room for some meltas thus keeping me from trying to rely on grenades.
Bring it on, Stormtroopers vs. Leman Russ. Have fun with those Str 3 weapons! Oh wait, you're not even using a full squad. Coolio. Now you're down to 8 T3 4+ troops. I hope that you're a very lucky person. Vladsimpaler wrote:I don't understand, how would this hurt my credibility?
Because of the same reason that the Harlequins are so valuable. A multi-use squad good at a variet of tasks in a specialist army. Having a flexible unit is pure gold in armies like these.
Really? Multi-use? There is no multi-use! Are you fething serious?! Stormtroopers have fething AP3. Now, if they had Str 4 Ap - Assault 2 guns, then they'd be multi-purpose. But no, Robin "The Idiot" Cruddace made them AP3. Stormtroopers will kill as many marines as they will Orks. When 10 stormtroopers fire at 18", they will kill 2 Orks, or 2 Marines. 2 Orks is 12 points just in case you were wondering. Assault 2 Str 4 Ap- is multipurpose. Why? Because 20 shots from 10 guys will kill about 6 Orks, but only about 2 Marines. Hmm...good against hordes and marines. Wait, isn't that multi-purpose? Whoops, just kind of sunk your battleship there. Stormtroopers were made to be Marine killers, not multi-purpose, whether you like it or not. And you didn't answer my question. Do you play Guard or not? :Edit: Oh yeah, expect for Sentinels to be about 50 points. Plasma cannons are probably going to be around +25 points.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
The nerfing of the last unmolested Elites slot was confirmed in the last couple of pages on Warseer. Ratlings lost their ability to go to ground in response to a failed morale check. This, together with Ld 6, pretty much seals their fate as a viable unit.
For whatever reason, Robin Cruddace has what can only be described as an unrelenting hatred towards Guard specialist units. There's nothing worth putting into the Elites slot anymore, and I expect future IG armies will all be forced into the same mould of massive squad-blobs huddling together to survive with none of the Ld-fixing abilities of the previous codex.
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Post by: Raxmei
The Techpriest and Psyker squad are not yet confirmed to be nerfed.
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Post by: BoxANT
Noticed this over on Warseer, from The Knowing.
Since answering your question I have managed to come across another special rule for Griffons. I give you: Accurate Bombardment - the controlling player can re-roll his scatter dice if he wishes. Not great but something at least.
All I have to say, Griffion, awesome
Going to be running a squad of 2 or 3 of these bad boys!
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Post by: Lord Solar Plexus
alarmingrick wrote:does anyone else find it funny that we're agrueing Over things that aren't even 100% known for sure yet? 
I don't have much reason to laugh at this point. You seem to forget that 99 % of this stuff comes from people who are looking at the codex when answering questions.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Well, the TP is reputedly better at what he does now, on par with the techmarine, which I suppose is something.
The Chorus, I suspect, will be fragile. Whether or not it's worth it depends on the points cost, but even at the best case, it needs to pass a Ld8 psychic check every turn it wants to use a power (which I believe is a 13/18ths chance, or 72%).
I suspect the latter will at the very least be a fun unit to use. Fluffwise it's a very strong concept, and maintains the Sanctioned Psyker's status as an inept and useless psychic powers user, but in a way that prevents one from having to take such crappily-endowed models.
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Post by: BoxANT
Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, the TP is reputedly better at what he does now, on par with the techmarine, which I suppose is something.
The Chorus, I suspect, will be fragile. Whether or not it's worth it depends on the points cost, but even at the best case, it needs to pass a Ld8 psychic check every turn it wants to use a power (which I believe is a 13/18ths chance, or 72%).
I suspect the latter will at the very least be a fun unit to use. Fluffwise it's a very strong concept, and maintains the Sanctioned Psyker's status as an inept and useless psychic powers user, but in a way that prevents one from having to take such crappily-endowed models.
French Data Sheet says that Sanctioned Psykers are Ld9.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Oh, sorry my bad. That boosts their success rate, then., to 83%. I'll take those odds. Especially if their Leadership-wrecker has a good range.
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Post by: Raxmei
Agamemnon2 wrote:Oh, sorry my bad. That boosts their success rate, then., to 83%. I'll take those odds. Especially if their Leadership-wrecker has a good range.
Is 24" good? That's the only guess I've seen at the range.
Oh, and somebody is disputing the rough rider nerf. The lance might in fact still be a power weapon. I've only heard one uncorroborated report but I'm inclined to believe it because that would make sense.
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Post by: Dave47
Agamemnon2 wrote: I expect future IG armies will all be forced into the same mould of massive squad-blobs huddling together to survive with none of the Ld-fixing abilities of the previous codex.
Wait, are IG losing the "Leadership" special rule? That's been in the Codex since 2nd Edition. We'd have to go back to 1993 to have an IG army without that rule.
What about the Standard Bearer? He's just as much a part of the Guard. We're not losing him, are we?
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Post by: Raxmei
Dave47 wrote:What about the Standard Bearer? He's just as much a part of the Guard. We're not losing him, are we?
There are both company and platoon standards. I don't know what the company standard does. The platoon standard adds +1 to combat resolution. I don't know who it applies to.
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Post by: BoxANT
I refuse to believe the rumors that IG officers are loosing "Leadership" rule, i am closing my eyes and ears.
However, if we do loose it, it better be replaced by free voxes for all squads.
But if not, then GW is dead to me.
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Post by: Dave47
Raxmei wrote:Dave47 wrote:What about the Standard Bearer? He's just as much a part of the Guard. We're not losing him, are we?
There are both company and platoon standards. I don't know what the company standard does. The platoon standard adds +1 to combat resolution. I don't know who it applies to.
Until I hear otherwise, I'll assume the Company Standard is the re-roll. I understand why Platoon would be different; multiple 12" re-roll bubbles would be broken. (That's probably why Creed and Kell are rumored to replace the CHQ instead of supplement it.)
Hopefully, the CHQ Standard won't also force you to gain the +1 CR. The majority of the time as a Guard player you want your squads to brake.
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Post by: A-P
BoxANT wrote:I refuse to believe the rumors that IG officers are loosing "Leadership" rule, i am closing my eyes and ears.
However, if we do loose it, it better be replaced by free voxes for all squads.
But if not, then GW is dead to me.
Yes, that sounds bad ( if true ) and would force a reassessment of the role of the Vox. Considering how the Orders-system is becoming the new standard feature it really would make sense to make Voxes an integral part of all squads. If they are not included in the basic makeup of squads ( sergeant+vox+troopers ), I really hope the points cost is not crippling.
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Post by: glory
Death By Monkeys wrote:Dexy wrote:Death By Monkeys wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:I kind of like the idea of triple tapping plasma. A one in two chance of overheating and killing yourself for mistreating the gun is fluffy and would be effective.
Somebody's going to ninja me on this, but that's not the way 'Get's Hot!' works anymore. Only on rolls of a 1 - doesn't matter how many shots you fire anymore.
1/6 chance of rolling a 1 has a 50% chance of happening when you roll 3 Dice.
Doh. Yeah, brainfart on the math. Thanks.
I realise this is a bit late, but the actual math for getting or not getting overheats when firing three plasma shots isn't 3 x 1/6. in fact, the chances of getting overheats is alot harder to calculate than the chance of not getting one, hence why I choose to do the latter.
The chances of not overheating are:
5/6 x 5/6 x 5/6 = 125/216, or approximately 0.57, meaning that the chances of getting one or more overheats is "only" 43%.
Please bear in mind that there's a small chance of getting multiple overheats, which is why you always want to roll the dice for each plasma gun separately.
---
On a more on-topic note, I'm really sad to see all the elites get hosed again. I haven't used them so far, due to my army being only 1k pts and mechanised, but it doesn't look like I will be even considering them in the future. The pricetags just don't make any sense when compared to infantry squads in Chimeras.
The Chimera is still making me very happy, lots of little tweaks that really allows my army to go on the offense as well. AV 12 Sentinels are a great addition too, I finally get to use my four Armageddon patterns for more than one turn per game. I expect AV 12 spam to be alot of fun, even to the point of expanding my army another 500 pts just to get more of it.
The only thing I'm slightly concerned with is the automatic indirect modes on pretty much all the artilley pieces. I have a Basilisk converted to resemble a StuG III, and there's no way it could ever crank up elevation of the gun to fire non-direct. Looks like I'll be losing some points there, with the mandatory indirect mode. And while I'm talking aobut artillery, I really like the advisor who lets you call in the off-board strikes. I can finally have some indirect fire without having to compromise on my theme.
8733
Post by: konst80hummel
Gentlemen... I just finished reading all the concerning threads about the matter... And burned my eyes out in the process. I 'm new to 40k and guard and believe that the new codex will change a lot of things in the fundamental way that the army plays. I for one am looking forward to see how the orders system brings tactics and strategy back to the table instead of "my whole army just deepstriked in your board edge and is droping hot plasma everywhere" . 
Are ogryns expensive? Yes! Are they worthless? Don't know.... maybe they will break the stride of those Raptors, Berzerks, Stealers and other assaulters i see in my nick of the woods. In the first DOW game they were a wall for the troopers to hide behind and shoot. If they become that in the tabletop i for one will be pleased. Someone said (i realy can't go back and read 50+ pages of script) that for the same cost he can feed the assaulting squad grunts and keep shooting the assaulters. Maybe with ogryns you don't have to worry about them any more. They will be forced to throw wound to the ogryns to drop them when they could be multicharging your gunline. They have large bases and have good footprint on the table. Use that to block assaulters way.
Stormtoopers need playtesting. Pure and simple. In my last game i used 3 5man squads to try and take the opponents hold on the objective. The way the game went had my hellguns been Ap3 i miight have succeded... I for one will persist in using my Vostroyans as Storms!  A unit that can force the opponnent to draw units from his assault to deal with a threat to a home objective is worth the points.
Divide and conquer. We now have fast vehicles and the punch required to force our opponents off the objective. Valk drops combined with a (or 3) helhound variant assault will cost a lot but can finally drive enemies back... Poison cannons? Melta cannons? i will try this out Gents. I like the idea a lot.
Orders look cool. I 'm eager to try and see how they work
Psykers look like they finally are worth something. We get to deal with enemy drop trops. We can fry (for real this time) with warp lightning. We can lower enemy morale (Lash anyone?)
The time is approching for our beloved grunts to get some attention. We will have to find new ways to use them. Hell if we wanted to win all the time we would have turned to other more competitive armies with uber brutal lists. Admit it!
(and NO! My only relation with GW is as a customer! I am NOT on their payroll)
46
Post by: alarmingrick
@Lord Solar Plexus
"I don't have much reason to laugh at this point. You seem to forget that 99 % of this stuff comes from people who are looking at the codex when answering questions. "
about 99% of the "rumors", not 99% of the 'dex. i'm trying to be upbeat and positive. you're probably right about us not having much to laugh about, but until i have the book in my hands i refuse to jump off my nearest tall building.
@ BoxANT
"All I have to say, Griffion, awesome
Going to be running a squad of 2 or 3 of these bad boys!"
i couldn't agree more! i already have three i've collected off of Feebay that i have to put the finishing touches on!
1406
Post by: Janthkin
konst80hummel wrote:Gentlemen... I just finished reading all the concerning threads about the matter... And burned my eyes out in the process. I 'm new to 40k and guard and believe that the new codex will change a lot of things in the fundamental way that the army plays. I for one am looking forward to see how the orders system brings tactics and strategy back to the table instead of "my whole army just deepstriked in your board edge and is droping hot plasma everywhere" . Are ogryns expensive? Yes! Are they worthless? Don't know.... maybe they will break the stride of those Raptors, Berzerks, Stealers and other assaulters i see in my nick of the woods. In the first DOW game they were a wall for the troopers to hide behind and shoot. If they become that in the tabletop i for one will be pleased. Someone said (i realy can't go back and read 50+ pages of script) that for the same cost he can feed the assaulting squad grunts and keep shooting the assaulters. Maybe with ogryns you don't have to worry about them any more. They will be forced to throw wound to the ogryns to drop them when they could be multicharging your gunline. They have large bases and have good footprint on the table. Use that to block assaulters way. Stormtoopers need playtesting. Pure and simple. In my last game i used 3 5man squads to try and take the opponents hold on the objective. The way the game went had my hellguns been Ap3 i miight have succeded... I for one will persist in using my Vostroyans as Storms! A unit that can force the opponnent to draw units from his assault to deal with a threat to a home objective is worth the points. Divide and conquer. We now have fast vehicles and the punch required to force our opponents off the objective. Valk drops combined with a (or 3) helhound variant assault will cost a lot but can finally drive enemies back... Poison cannons? Melta cannons? i will try this out Gents. I like the idea a lot. Orders look cool. I 'm eager to try and see how they work Psykers look like they finally are worth something. We get to deal with enemy drop trops. We can fry (for real this time) with warp lightning. We can lower enemy morale (Lash anyone?) The time is approching for our beloved grunts to get some attention. We will have to find new ways to use them. Hell if we wanted to win all the time we would have turned to other more competitive armies with uber brutal lists. Admit it! (and NO! My only relation with GW is as a customer! I am NOT on their payroll)
You are young; life has been kind to you.
You will learn... -- No Place Like London; Sweeney Todd, The Demon Barber of Fleet Street
11729
Post by: Gestalt
From reds8n on warseer in response to
1. Do Officers still have leadership rule? Can squads within 12" use the officers leadership?
2. Can squads in the Vox network use the officers leadership?
1. I don't think so .
2. I believe vox help with the receiving of the new orders, not 100% on that though.
Looks like orders have replaced leadership bubbles. A lot more running is gonna happen.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
@Vlad, why do shooty armies usually have low initiative?
It might be because the shooting phase occurs before HtH.
Yeah I'll be happy to deepstrike those stormies in on your rear armour with 2 meltas.
As to multi-use. HHMMM who wins between storms and banshees if the storms deepstrike and shoot first?
Same goes for the striking scorpions.
Storms vs Crisis suits?
The math on this is very close. And thats before the possibility of the extra rapid fire shot. So yeah the only time you use them is against marines because other armies don't have Equivalents.
As to your question. Learn to read and you will have your answer.
Do I own a guard army, No.
Does this mean I don't play guard? No
Do have have an extensive gaming group with which we borrow one anothers armies? Yes
Have I kicked but with guard?Yes
Have I lost with guard?Yes
Does any of this affect someones ability to understand the tactical value of certain squads if they are already familiar with the game system?NO
270
Post by: winterman
Looks like orders have replaced leadership bubbles. A lot more running is gonna happen.
To be fair, squads have ld8 sgts now across the board. So I guess the main thing lost is the ld9 bubble of the HQ officer. I guess he won't be nearly as high in target priority anymore
I dunno how bad a change this is really gonna be. Seems to me instead of relying on command to keep squads in the game, you now rely on sgts (as it should be, having served irl), while the command gives some cool boosts to a squad or two. I kinda like that more but I am not a long time IG player, just one waiting to see the new dex before jumping into it.
1406
Post by: Janthkin
winterman wrote:I dunno how bad a change this is really gonna be. Seems to me instead of relying on command to keep squads in the game, you now rely on sgts (as it should be, having served irl), while the command gives some cool boosts to a squad or two. I kinda like that more but I am not a long time IG player, just one waiting to see the new dex before jumping into it.
If the CHQ standard has the same effect (reroll leadership w/in 12"), it's a relatively minor change - squads operating off the Lt's leadership were testing at 8 anyway. It'll hurt things like Ogryn & (potentially) conscripts much more than line squads.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
I've drawn criticism for having rose colored glasses where this codex is concerned despite the fact that I've openly stated that some units just seen not suited for regular 40K and seem more like Apoc units and that RR seem to be dead in this 'Dex.
Heck, I'm not holding any hope for the RR right now, unless something changes drastically.
A third of the tanks come across as Apoc oriented. And poeple are gonna have to figure out which is which, not that much of a problem.
Penal legions seem to be to much of a gamble unless your just looking to meat shield them. Not much of a shield, though.
Voxes are damn near mandatory, but then they sort of were before also.
It seems officer leadership is being replaced by having to buy commisars for the squads.
You will probably have to spam a theme for the army to maximize tournament effectiveness.
The biggest down side though is that most of the units only do stuff at an ok level. Its like the old saying Jack of all trades and master of none. The only exception is that no army can match the amount of ordinance that the IG can dish out. To this flaw I can only say welcome to the guard.
Pretty much been its theme all along. Average.
There are some downsides, Just as in every codex release.And then there are up sides.
IMHO, These are the upsides to me.
The biggest change to the Guard is the availability of speed. The potential of several squadrons of fast moving heavily armed transport skimmers is nice.
Back that up with ground tanks that can keep up to provide fire support.
I can't stress to much how useful all of that speed can be
Next is diversity of builds now available.
Hard hitting fast strike
Steady advancing Armorwall
The good ol' massed infantry
Artillery Barrage of doom
Mixes of what I've stated so far
Then comes a much more interesting command structure that seems to have the ability to really boost the effectiveness of the basic guardsman.
I'm reserving thoughts on the other stuff until the new codex is out. All I've been trying to say is that to me there are an increased range of options for the IG.
11729
Post by: Gestalt
From LD9 to LD8 is about 15% more failures, and heavy weapons squads seem to still be LD7, so after 2 wounds they have a 42% chance of running. Its hard to keep most of an army within 12" of one squad, especially when you are trying to not get multicharged. Im really hoping we can take 2 HQs.
8218
Post by: Raxmei
Sniper rifles can be taken as special weapons for 5 points. It is supposedly possible to arm an entire special weapons squad with them and the result costs the same as ratlings.
That points to a six-man special weapon squad either costing 30 points and upgrading to special weapons at the same rate as the infantry or costing 60 points with a 5 point discount on special weapons. The first is a much better deal than the current special weapons squad, so I don't think that's what we'll get. The second is better than the current special weapons squad if you want three or more special weapons. It's basically the same as the first except you can't save points by leaving models unupgraded.
4395
Post by: Deadshane1
New Guard do indeed have the leadership bubbles still availiable.
Its a special rule called "allied sisters with books".
12271
Post by: JB
I'm in favor of the new codex and 5e WH40K rules.
In 4e, the biggest threats to my army were fast assault armies (Ork speed freaks or SM assault marines with a jump pack equipped chaplain) and Tau armies with a lot of hammerheads with disruption pods and stealth teams. 5e made all of these threats weaker by allowing outflank and disallowing continual consolidation into new units during the assault phase.
The new IG codex also appears to make my biggest threat armies even less dangerous since I get more IG infantry, access to some long range AT weapons, and orders which appear to increase the lethality of common infantry and heavy weapons teams. I'm inclined to increase the numbers of rank and file squads with special weapons, voxes, and heavy weapons.
The downsides for me are the vulnerability of heavy weapons squads (I may drop a few of these in favor of normal squads) and the IG's weakness in Annihilation scenarios. I'm looking forward to getting in some games with the new codex and trying out several lists in Annihilation.
During the 45 or so pages of debate on the new codex, no one has really discussed whether the new codex works best with small lists (<=1000 points, medium lists 1001-1500 points, or large lists 1501-2000. I have seen several posts that the codex offers much of interest in APOC size games (2001+). For me, the new codex offers more advantages in the 1501-2000 point range since the savings advantage per Sentinel, Chimera, and regular squad is maximized. I don't save enough points in my smaller lists to really add anything significant (i.e. game-breaking) at lower army list point values.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
The biggest boon IG will get in regards to smaller point games is (hopefully) the fact that they will not be required to purchase infantry platoons.
2 squads of vets and a CHQ will run you 210pts. That is a heck of a lot cheaper than we currently have (aside from two 5man grenadier squads).
Throw those squads in chimeras, add some guns and perhaps even some sentinels, and you have a fun little recon army for a 500 pt skirmish.
12271
Post by: JB
How would you kit out your Chimeras?
I'm already stuck with four that have turret ML and hull HF but I'm thinking about adding four more that have turret HB and hull HB. All of them would have pintle HS since it's a nice defensive weapon and also helps to extend the life of the vehicle vs. those pesky weapon destroyed results.
The rumors indicate that track guards are too pricey for me since I tend not to carry squads inside the Chimeras anyway. The new 5e run rules and rumored "Move, move, move" order makes it even less likely that I'll put any passengers inside the tracked vehicles so I see no reason to pay 15 points for track guards. I might jump a squad near the end of the game into a nearby Chimera to capture an objective.
A Chimera with turret HB, hull HB, and pintle HS looks like a better option than a heavy weapon squad with HBs. I guess it would depend on the enemy you face.
As non-sequiturs, the Master of Ordnance is looking like a "must-have" for the IG. Also the poor elite choices combined with more vehicles in my list makes me want to put my enginseer and his tech servitors back in my list. I may even put them in a pimped out red Chimera worthy of a techpriest.
11
Post by: ph34r
Deadshane1 wrote:New Guard do indeed have the leadership bubbles still availiable.
Its a special rule called "allied sisters with books".
Right, until GW gets around to making the SoB codex and that rule stops existing. It kinda sucks that the only way to get good leadership now is to take allies to fix the problem. I already take allies with a book but now I am forced to do that or have all my units run away from the slightest shooting (particularly HW squads).
10123
Post by: BoxANT
JB:
Personally, I love Multilasers and would never take a turret HB over a turret Multilaser. ML is such a great weapon, able to threaten all infantry and light vehicles ( ML kills MEQ in cover just as well as a Lascannon kills them out of cover).
I think 65pts for a ML/ HB/ HS is a very solid investment (considering a HB HW squad runs 75pts).
12271
Post by: JB
BoxANT,
I'll try the turret MLs first before I try the turret HBs. It's easier since the kit comes with MLs anyway. I do think I will add more Chimeras. I may even try nine of them in my list (4 per infantry platoon (x2) plus one for my enginseer and his tech servitors).
I'm still working out my HW squads but do not plan on using HBs in them. Maybe I'll still run a LC, ML, or AC squad. I'm still considering vehicle options that would make more effective choices than these squads. The Vendetta may be better than a LC or ML squad.
8218
Post by: Raxmei
I too like the multilaser. It wounds more often and Ap often doesn't matter anyway. I'm torn on the hull weapon, but starting to lean to the heavy bolter.
581
Post by: Grimaldi
focusedfire wrote:
Voxes are damn near mandatory, but then they sort of were before also.
Wow...this statement is so far off reality it taints all your other guard analysis.
Gestalt wrote:From LD9 to LD8 is about 15% more failures, and heavy weapons squads seem to still be LD7, so after 2 wounds they have a 42% chance of running. Its hard to keep most of an army within 12" of one squad, especially when you are trying to not get multicharged. Im really hoping we can take 2 HQs.
I'm thinking this might make it more common to put HW squads in Chimeras. They don't appear to become open-topped when the troops shot from them, can have up to 5 weapons fire out, and the troops inside can't rout.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
ph34r wrote:Right, until GW gets around to making the SoB codex and that rule stops existing. It kinda sucks that the only way to get good leadership now is to take allies to fix the problem. I already take allies with a book but now I am forced to do that or have all my units run away from the slightest shooting (particularly HW squads).
Frankly, I dont expect them to redo SoB for a long while, so we might as well make good use of the book while we're at it.
8218
Post by: Raxmei
The rough rider thing appears to be a false alarm. We're getting more reports that the lance is still a power weapon.
Those of you who ran non-lance riders appear to still be out of luck, though.
11729
Post by: Gestalt
Grimaldi wrote:I'm thinking this might make it more common to put HW squads in Chimeras. They don't appear to become open-topped when the troops shot from them, can have up to 5 weapons fire out, and the troops inside can't rout.
That would be nice, but Im guessing that 5 fire points has something to do with the hull lasguns, and that we will only be firing 1-2 heavy weapons out the hatch. I'd like confirmation on how firing out of a chimera works, since the rules before were inconsistent with the lasguns.
Edit: Is the tank ace +1 to armor pen or +1 to damage table?
12271
Post by: JB
Gestalt wrote:From LD9 to LD8 is about 15% more failures, and heavy weapons squads seem to still be LD7, so after 2 wounds they have a 42% chance of running. Its hard to keep most of an army within 12" of one squad, especially when you are trying to not get multicharged. Im really hoping we can take 2 HQs.
Grimaldi wrote:I'm thinking this might make it more common to put HW squads in Chimeras. They don't appear to become open-topped when the troops shot from them, can have up to 5 weapons fire out, and the troops inside can't rout.
Did something dramatically change with Chimeras in regards to passengers shooting? My understanding (which may change in the new codex) is that six passengers can fire lasguns (not sure if that is limited to three per side but that's the way I play it) and one model may fire a weapon from the top rear hatch but then the vehicle is considered open-topped. So a HW squad would only fire one of their heavy weapons. Personally, I wouldn't use a passenger heavy weapon because of the open-topped limitation coupled with LOS difficulty caused by the Chimera's turret. I don't want to turn my side armor and go open-topped just to use one passenger AC, HB, LC, or ML. If something has changed in the new codex, that might change my mind.
320
Post by: Platuan4th
JB wrote:Did something dramatically change with Chimeras in regards to passengers shooting? My understanding (which may change in the new codex) is that six passengers can fire lasguns (not sure if that is limited to three per side but that's the way I play it) and one model may fire a weapon from the top rear hatch but then the vehicle is considered open-topped. So a HW squad would only fire one of their heavy weapons. Personally, I wouldn't use a passenger heavy weapon because of the open-topped limitation coupled with LOS difficulty caused by the Chimera's turret. I don't want to turn my side armor and go open-topped just to use one passenger AC, HB, LC, or ML. If something has changed in the new codex, that might change my mind.
The new Codex due out in May apparently has 5 Fire Points instead of the old 6 Lasgun/Top Hatch rules. As the "counting as open-topped" is linked to the Top Hatch rules and not the Fire Point rules from the BGB, and rumours/those who have seen the new book indicate there is no similar rule anymore, then you won't run into that problem anymore.
12271
Post by: JB
Platuan4th wrote:The new Codex due out in May apparently has 5 Fire Points instead of the old 6 Lasgun/Top Hatch rules. As the "counting as open-topped" is linked to the Top Hatch rules and not the Fire Point rules from the BGB, and rumours/those who have seen the new book indicate there is no similar rule anymore, then you won't run into that problem anymore.
Thanks Platuan. I'm skeptical that they will allow three heavy weapons to fire from a Chimera, but even if they do, we will likely have to give a side armor facing in order to take those heavy weapon shots since LOS is taken from the Fire Points. We also cannot move the Chimera during that movement phase.
11729
Post by: Gestalt
I'm waiting to celebrate on that to see if there are restrictions on those fire points. Chimera with 3 lascannons? Drive-by with 4x Flamer or 4x Plasma command squads?
12271
Post by: JB
Gestalt wrote:I'm waiting to celebrate on that to see if there are restrictions on those fire points. Chimera with 3 lascannons? Drive-by with 4x Flamer or 4x Plasma command squads?
Damn Gestalt. Your idea about drive-by special weapons spam may be fething brilliant. Now you've got me wondering... Too bad that it's only a 6" drive. On the plus side, it's a Tank Shock as well. I don't know that I would risk a command squad though...maybe a SWS or a veteran squad. On the other hand, the platoon command squad is pretty cheap but losing it would likely break up my vox network, which per the rumors might hurt me, and would end any orders from that JO.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
The rumor about the Chimera and 5 firepoints seems solid, really hope it is true.
I had not considered putting HW squads in Chimeras, that would be interesting.
A 65pt Chimera + a 75 3AC squad could kick out a hideous amount of firepower, and if screened by some AV14, would be hard to take out without serious anti tank.
8218
Post by: Raxmei
FAQ: How is the psyker squad's power handled when the unit is in a Chimera?
10123
Post by: BoxANT
Well since they are only making 1 attack (not 1 per each member), I would assume that they could fire out of a chimera at full effect.
12271
Post by: JB
Raxmei wrote:FAQ: How is the psyker squad's power handled when the unit is in a Chimera?
According to the BGB [p.66], passengers can use a psychic power via a Fire Point on a transport. If range and LOS matter though, they are measured from the Fire Point.
From what I've read in the rumors here and on BoLS, one of the psykers uses the power and the others amplify its effect.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
It looks like I might have to ammend some of what I said earlier.
Recent rumors suggest that the RR still have the same lance with no change. If this ia true and the rumors about the special character is true, then they could be useful. Will have to wait for more info.
Penal units are looking to be whole platoons20-50 strong that are looking to have some interesting abilities.
I still don't like the having to roll for those abilities just before deployment but if it is done squad to squad then you could "sort of" plan for them in your strategy. With my luck I'm not sure if I'd use them, but I can definitely see A good use for them if your the gambling type.
@Grimaldi, What? You've never played an IG infantry hoarde army? Huh, go figure.
To every single person that has criticized me about my stance on stormtrooper.
The people that say that there is no way an elite S3 T3 model could be worth 16 pts.
Then has argued that point using units like Striking scorps, Banshees, and Harlequins.......Those are all S3 T3 models. You just argued and proved my point.
If the latest rumors on the IG Codex thread is true. Then the IG by gaining battlepskers, fast skimmers, and commanders with farseer abilites to allow you to re-roll wounds and twin-link weapons has picked up a strong flavor from another army.
People are gonna call this the IE codex for Imperial Eldar
11
Post by: ph34r
focusedfire wrote:Then has argued that point using units like Striking scorps, Banshees, and Harlequins.......Those are all S3 T3 models. You just argued and proved my point.
You are missing the point entirely. It's not just that they are S3 T3. They also have not good armor and are terrible in close combat. Scorpions, banshees, and harlqeuins have things like str 4, sheet, 3+ armor, special rules, high initiative, etc. They are legitimate units that can beat other units in their designed area. Storm troopers just aren't that good at shooting and don't have the survivability or range to even do it for long, attributes that don't help justify the greater than space marine cost (space marines pay for free flamers and MLs base)
686
Post by: aka_mythos
I think Stormtrooper will still have their use. I think it just comes down to the fact that we'll all need new tactics to use them because of how different they are now. They've gone from just being better guardsmen to being a unit with directed disruptive ability. Their usefulness is also amplified by our diminished ability to take droptrooper deepstrike ability. Any armylist that wants or needs some component of its force to disrupt enemy lines via deepstrike will have to take Stromtroopers. With the thematic focus of the codex shifted certain abilities are at a premium.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
@Ph34r, focusedfire wrote:To every single person that has criticized me about my stance on stormtroopers.
The people that say that there is no way an elite S3 T3 model could be worth 16 pts.
Then has argued that point using units like Striking scorps, Banshees, and Harlequins.......Those are all S3 T3 models. You just argued and proved my point.
ph34r wrote:You are missing the point entirely. It's not just that they are S3 T3. They also have not good armor and are terrible in close combat. Scorpions, banshees, and harlqeuins have things like str 4, sheet, 3+ armor, special rules, high initiative, etc. They are legitimate units that can beat other units in their designed area. Storm troopers just aren't that good at shooting and don't have the survivability or range to even do it for long, attributes that don't help justify the greater than space marine cost (space marines pay for free flamers and MLs base)
Banshees have 4+ armour, Harlequins have only 5+ invulnerable, and ap 3 still beats SV3+ to my knowledge. So the stormies equal or beat 2 out 3 of the listed Eldar elites in armor. And I find it ironic that an IG player would call armor save 4+ poor. You want to be a marine or sister then play a marine or sister. Banshees ar st3,harkies only str4 on first turn of assault, and shooting still occurs before assaults as far as I can remember. And units deepstriking still get to shoot before they are assaulted. In what world is bs 4 not good at shooting? Now if you are speaking of weapon strength 3 having problems against T5 and up. Well they can carry stronger weapons or you realize that they are not for tackling that type of unit but will do well against T4 and down because of their volume of fire and becuase most scoring units are T3. The storms also have special rules. Rules that pretty much allow them to to always initiate the fight on their terms. Means that they always get to shoot befroe being assaulted if you use them as intended. I've been asking other players, who aren't on the Interwebs regularly and don't chase rumors but rather wait until the codex comes out, about a conceptual Tau unit that is armed exactly like the stormies and has the same special rules/options. After the statement, "No freakin way will they ever get something like that", the next thing said is invariably 16-18 pts. As to any further comments we will have to agree to disagree.
11
Post by: ph34r
"As to any further comments we will have to agree to disagree."
You can agree to disagree. I will still think that it is foolish to think that the storm troopers will stand up to other similarly priced units in usefulness. The valkyries and vendettas might make them semi-useful, but that's the dropship being good.
Here's an eldar comparison for you, since you seem to like eldar:
Dire avenger vs storm trooper. DA has +1 str weapon, but -2 AP. Both are 18". DA can fire the catapult twice at 18" rather than just 12", has no chance to overheat (am not sure if hellguns will overheat), and can assault after shooting.
Disregard psychic powers and orders for now, because both armies have their versions, and this is just about the unit.
160 points of DA kills 3.55 marines, in or out of cover, at 18" or less, and can move and fire up to full range.
160 points of storm troopers will kill 4.44 marines out of or 2.22 marines in cover at 12". They kill 2.22 marines out of or 1.11 marines in cover, stationary, at 18". If the new hellguns overheat then they will kill 0.8 of their own firing once, or 1.6 rapid firing.
DA also do not waste AP3 if they need to shoot at orks or guardsmen.
DA are always a troop unit, storm troopers will require a special character to be troops if the option even exists.
Storm troopers can get melta guns which makes them good against tanks, but only 2 vs 3 on veterans which are half as expensive and troops always, and shooting tanks makes their super expensive new hellguns wasted. They can take plasma guns which makes them even better at killing marines but is even more expensive. They can take flamers which do not mesh well with anti marine hellguns.
Storm troopers get to take advantage of some not-so-useful special deployments, like 1 round of pinning shooting, move through cover, or rerolling deep strike from valkyries.
The only situation where I would rather have storm troopers would be one where I know that I will be fighting space marines and I know they won't be in cover and I know they won't have anti infantry weaponry like HBs that would do just as well shooting my STs as my guardsmen. Against marines in cover ST are worse, against orks ST are worse, and I think that I would end up fighting them more than marine players who don't like cover.
EDIT: and if that comparison is not enough to convince you, then we will just have to disagree.
10279
Post by: focusedfire
No its not enough to convince me, because of some options and possibilities are being left out to wieght the argument. The stormies get a save vs the avengers and are looking to get 2 shots at 18" and 3 at 12" as rumors currently stand.
They are not only good against marines but also Tau crisis, Tyranind warriors, Necrons in the right circumstances(No like unit within or ressurection orb in range), any T4 and lower as long as the opponent doesn't get FNP, and against Eldar elites.
You keep saying that a T3 model can't be worth that much and yet you still bring up models that are T3 and in the same price range. You invalidate your own argument. In case your wondering(DA are 12 pts plus the 12 for the exarch, plus the weapons and powers add at least another 20-40 points bringing it to 15-17 points/ea for a fully kitted squad that still doesn't get deepstrike or infiltrate.
So yes, I will still agree to disagree because if your trying to use eldar units to prove why Storm aren't worth the points you are invalidating your own argument.
But please, don't let me stop you from continuing with the argument just because I realize that we are not going to agree. Have fun and I will only listen now that I feel that I've made my point.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
It is also worth mentioning that the storm trooper missions will allow them to be more accurately placed and in a more surprising fashion than dire avengers. They have different battlefield roles. DAs are worthless without their wave serpent but stormtroopers can function fairly well unsupported. In fact they function in entirely different ways, with the DAs popping out of their tanks and tearing down a light infantry squad vs backfield deep strike/flanking deployment against tanks and ranged offense units.
Disregard psychic powers and orders for now, because both armies have their versions, and this is just about the unit.
It's never just about the unit. Ever. Army composition, the composition of the enemy force, and force multipliers are more important than mathammered MEQ kill ratios because they are what drive those numbers. Statistical analysis is only useful when all major factors are taken into account. I also haven't heard a single gets hot rumor about hellguns until you mentioned them just now. I think that would have stood out.
9504
Post by: sonofruss
They also pin on the first turn of shooting.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
They are *not* suicide units anymore. IG has plenty of suicide units ( SWS).
ST are now the closest thing IG has to a true "elite" unit, a unit that has a lot of special abilities and fancy stuff. However they are still mortal men. I actually like the idea for the new ST (compared to the old), it feels like ST are actually highly trained and equipped soldiers.
The question is, can they be worth the points? For a full squad of ST + guns, I can get a really nice LRBT variant, or a 35man platoon. So these ST better be able to add something extremely important to be worth the points.
Now obviously, there is nothing in the current IG codex that has a plan of use similar to the new ST. IG has never really had a "non disposable" unit, and that is what I think the new ST unit is. It is not something that you can just throw away, they have to be used with purpose and used correctly.
Personally, I am on the fence if I am going to field them. I will for sure try them out a few games, but I don't know if they fit with my "traditional" ways of playing guard. But I am certain other players can/will make them work... just as I am also certain that many players will *try*, fail, and continue trying to make them work 
4351
Post by: ubermosher
New rumor that power weapons are 10 pts, but power fists are only 15. Ironic after all the time I spent trying to acquire just power weapon Officer models.
Guess I'll just have to buy some new Command Squads.
581
Post by: Grimaldi
The big problem with storm troopers is that they ARE disposable troops...any IG unit that has to get that close to the enemy is going to die. So, the question is whether or not they can earn their keep before they die.
Old 3 weapons suicide vet squads could easily do it. 180 points for a full ST squad (including 2 melta guns) is tougher to justify. Now, if you can take a minimum squad of just 5, and all other units must be taken at full strength, that would make a difference, as could the exact interaction of various orders and valkyries.
With the limited info available, though, I'm thinking vets might be the better pick. Supposedly the may get some orders, they get 3 special weapons, and they may be half the price...or still cheaper if you decide to upgrade them to carapace armor.
I was going to say the STs would be a little more generalized...but as I think the reasons through, I don't see it as much as I thought I would. STs do better against MEQs and GEQs, while vets do better against armor and MCs. Give the vets plasma instead of melta, and they can't harm heavy armor as well, but they do better against everything else.
As for this:
focusedfire wrote:
@Grimaldi, What? You've never played an IG infantry hoarde army? Huh, go figure.
Actually, I played all infantry IG most of the time in 4th, with maybe a pair of basilisks for support. A vox network just limited the number of bodies I could field...I don't ever recall having an issue with not having enough officers around to keep command. I could be crazy, but I don't think many of the more successful IG lists had vox, either.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
Yes, Voxes currently are a complete waste of points (perhaps if you are playing a complete DS force, or complete mechanized).
But looks like they will become almost mandatory :(
A 5man ST squad w/ 2 meltas is going up to 100 points (from 75). That is the closest they can get to a "suicide" squad. But that is still a rather expensive squad. However, since 5man/3melta DS vets are gone, perhaps it is our best bet :( At least they can reroll DS scatter dice.
Personally, I am going to try fielding them as 5man/2melta and 10man/2melta squads and see how they play. I think the 10man squad will be used differently, more of a "problem solver unit" and the 5man squad is more of a "suicide against armor" unit.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yeah... an S6 I1 power weapon on a T3 W1 model is sure worth 15 points... fething thing should be free it's so worthless...
10123
Post by: BoxANT
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah... an S6 I1 power weapon on a T3 W1 model is sure worth 15 points... fething thing should be free it's so worthless...
I agree, unless (by some miracle), Platoon Command Squads can merge with their Infantry Squads. If that is the case, then I will gladly pay 15pts for a PF hidden in over 50 bodies (all with FNP and Stubborn).
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yeah... an S6 I1 power weapon on a T3 W1 model is sure worth 15 points... fething thing should be free it's so worthless...
I can still see it seeing play on models with 3+ attacks, but thats a bit too much to realistically be useful on a ws3 2 attack squad sergeant or anything equivalent.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
And I am particularly interested in grouping Plasma SWS with a medic in the Platoon Cmmd squad. Plasma fire with FNP? Yes please!
Though why you would ever field CCWs on guardsmen is beyond me. Boltguns all the way! 1 point, but better than the lasgun, and way better than dying in HTH.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Scottywan82 wrote:And I am particularly interested in grouping Plasma SWS with a medic in the Platoon Cmmd squad. Plasma fire with FNP? Yes please!
From all accounts only Infantry Squads can merge, so no joining FNP'ing Medics to anything other than the unit they come with.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
So now that Sniper Rifles are (said) to be an SW upgrade (for 5 pts) for Infantry Squads, anyone thinking of HB/Sniper or even more crazy Mortar/Sniper?
60pts for Mortar/Sniper seems actually kinda fun (albeit not the most effective).
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yes... pairing a weapon that can't kill anything with a weapon that's useless.
Guessing which one is which is part of the game...
10123
Post by: BoxANT
Yeah mortars are still pretty craptastic, especially a mortar HWS considering a Griffion is only 15 more pts.
Sniper Rifles have their uses (MC), and it is cool that they're SW and not HW choices.
But I will be sticking to my AC/melta layout most likely.
11
Post by: ph34r
focusedfire wrote:No its not enough to convince me, because of some options and possibilities are being left out to wieght the argument. The stormies get a save vs the avengers and are looking to get 2 shots at 18" and 3 at 12" as rumors currently stand.
They are not only good against marines but also Tau crisis, Tyranind warriors, Necrons in the right circumstances(No like unit within or ressurection orb in range), any T4 and lower as long as the opponent doesn't get FNP, and against Eldar elites.
You keep saying that a T3 model can't be worth that much and yet you still bring up models that are T3 and in the same price range. You invalidate your own argument. In case your wondering(DA are 12 pts plus the 12 for the exarch, plus the weapons and powers add at least another 20-40 points bringing it to 15-17 points/ea for a fully kitted squad that still doesn't get deepstrike or infiltrate.
So yes, I will still agree to disagree because if your trying to use eldar units to prove why Storm aren't worth the points you are invalidating your own argument.
But please, don't let me stop you from continuing with the argument just because I realize that we are not going to agree. Have fun and I will only listen now that I feel that I've made my point.
1. When comparing units compare how they would each do against a target, not against each other. Obviously if you are eldar you cannot take storm troopers to kill enemy storm troopers.
2. As I said earlier, I am not counting boosting powers for either side. So no, you are wrong, ST do not get 2 shots at 18" and 3 at 12".
3. Battlecannons are better against all the things you listed and have str 8 to ignore FNP. And insta-kills battle suits and anything else t4 with no insta-death ignoring ability. Or, you could use some IG artillery and ignore cover too.
4. I am not saying that there is no way that a t3 model can be worth that much. I am saying that there is no way storm troopers can be worth that much. I don't know where you are getting the idea that I think t3 = do not pass 15 points, do not collect $200. I think the unit is bad.
5. I was mistaken on the DA points cost, but the fact that DA are always troops and have assault weapons on top of the fact that they are better at killing 3+ armor in most situations than a unit that is only good at killing 3+ armor, are better at killing anything in cover, and are better at killing 2+ armor. Plus, the DA unit has 3 more wounds.
6. DA don't get infiltrate or deepstrike, but these abilities are not worth more than 1 point and DS relies on valkyries to land accurately which is the valk, not the STs, being useful.
7. There is no argument if there is only one side. I'm fine with you only listening now, as I have refuted every one of your points, and do not require a response from you.
12271
Post by: JB
BoxANT wrote:Yeah mortars are still pretty craptastic, especially a mortar HWS considering a Griffion is only 15 more pts.
Sniper Rifles have their uses (MC), and it is cool that they're SW and not HW choices.
But I will be sticking to my AC/melta layout most likely.
I'm leaning towards putting a mortar in each of my three command squads since they'll be hiding as much as possible. The mortar is only 5 points and gives them something to fire without revealing themselves. I'm beginning to wish I had not converted my Griffon into a Basilisk years ago when GW was still selling bitz. I could change it back but that sounds like a lot of plastic pain. I may just get a new Chimera model and install my old Griffon parts.
I have two snipers and will try them out to see if they're any good. Right now I'm not crazy about them and plan on fielding two kinds of infantry squads: AC/Plasma and HB/Plasma. Of course the ACs will be furthest from the enemy. I'm not sure yet where I will use melta guns, MLs, and LCs. The weakness of HWS makes me want to avoid fielding any of them. I would prefer to add Sentinels with heavy weapons instead.
11
Post by: ph34r
ShumaGorath wrote:It is also worth mentioning that the storm trooper missions will allow them to be more accurately placed and in a more surprising fashion than dire avengers. They have different battlefield roles. DAs are worthless without their wave serpent but stormtroopers can function fairly well unsupported. In fact they function in entirely different ways, with the DAs popping out of their tanks and tearing down a light infantry squad vs backfield deep strike/flanking deployment against tanks and ranged offense units.
Disregard psychic powers and orders for now, because both armies have their versions, and this is just about the unit.
It's never just about the unit. Ever. Army composition, the composition of the enemy force, and force multipliers are more important than mathammered MEQ kill ratios because they are what drive those numbers. Statistical analysis is only useful when all major factors are taken into account. I also haven't heard a single gets hot rumor about hellguns until you mentioned them just now. I think that would have stood out.
I guess hellguns will not overheat. It was an old rumor and I haven't heard anything about it either way.
An order is a limited resource, and there are units that are much more worthy of using orders on than a debateably even worthwhile anti-3+ armor unit with short range. Orders and psychic powers are all situational for which unit they would be used on which is why I did not assume that you would always be ordering your STs to double-shoot (that is, if their hellguns/hotshot lasguns can take advantage of the order at all)
The ST missions do give them more interesting deployment methods but I do not think that they will be deal-breaking. A re-roll on scatter is nice, and infiltrate is too, but infiltrating can put your unit in danger of being charged right off the bat, so will not be useful in many circumstances.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Scottywan82 wrote:And I am particularly interested in grouping Plasma SWS with a medic in the Platoon Cmmd squad. Plasma fire with FNP? Yes please!
From all accounts only Infantry Squads can merge, so no joining FNP'ing Medics to anything other than the unit they come with.
This is probably the confirmation that I disliked the most, I was really looking forward to nestling 3 ACs inside an infantry squad to make them not so vulnerable, and then linking a command squad to some infantry to make a tough unit. I wonder if the command squad medic will have other uses than just on the 5 men in the command squad.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
Yes, the ability to add HWS/SWS to infantry squads would of been awesome (and very reasonable imo).
As it is right now, HWS/SWS seem like KP liabilities, and their low Ld makes them risky for Orders. Hopefully the codex address this.
11
Post by: ph34r
BoxANT wrote:Yes, the ability to add HWS/SWS to infantry squads would of been awesome (and very reasonable imo).
As it is right now, HWS/SWS seem like KP liabilities, and their low Ld makes them risky for Orders. Hopefully the codex address this.
Yeah, HWS and SWS seem like now they will be targeted even more if we choose to merge our infantry squads. 6 models is a lot easier to kill than 50 (or 20, or whatever you choose to do if you merge), for the same number of KP.
Actually, now that I think about it will you only be able to go all or nothing when merging the 10 man inf squads?
11
Post by: ph34r
In positive news, according to warseer vets are down 1 point to 70 for 10, and platoon command squads are down to 30 points. Also something I had not heard before, primaris psykers are 70 points each, lower than I expected. Rough riders seem to stay the same as they have been. Lukas Bastonne is a vet squad character that can issue his own orders.
2175
Post by: Chaplain Pallantide
@H.B.M.C:
Out of all the rumors you have heard about so far, what do you think an optimal build for guard would be @1500pts??
Do you think Veteran squads backed by tanks would be worth it? What sort of weapon load outs would be worth it for a normal guard squad?
Just want to pick your brain early if that's ok.
Thanks,
Chappy P!
8218
Post by: Raxmei
Last I heard on warseer was that rough riders were 55 points for the first five with included sergeant, with option to add more riders for 10 points each to a maximum squad size of ten. That's five points off the cost of a full squad.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
70 point vets make them much more reasonable. It basically gives us our current grenadiers now but with free defensive grenades (not to mention 3 SW and a HW).
I will see my 10man vet squad on the board much more often now, and they are scoring
Man I really hope HWS and SWS are not as bad as they seem :(
As for merging Infantry Squads, I heard that you can put them together any way you want. one 50man, a 20+30, 20+20+10,ect. Hopefully that is how it works.
1478
Post by: warboss
according to the guy compiling the warseer rumors, it's only the regular squads. command/assault/heavy squads supposedly don't amoeba up.
11303
Post by: thekingofdinner
Hey guys, look what i found! http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat1020005&prodId=prod2010017&rootCatGameStyle=apparently the Primaris psykers are for preorder now.
edit: Bleh, got the link to work
5789
Post by: mtaylor666
my biggest concern is taknig and holding objectives with T3 troops - this has always been a problem for guard and sometimes I reckon the only way to hold objectives is to shoot the enemy off the board and walk/run/chimera onto it in the last move of the game.
So what scoring units have we got that can hold objectives?
T3 infantry - that's what. The only 4+ save infantry we could use is Vets with carapace, perhaps slapped in a chimera and outflanking.
As for contesting objectives, we have non-troop options - the best seemingly being stormies in Valks or deepstriking. But again, not scoring.
Anyone else see what we can do here with scoring units getting onto objectives?
8218
Post by: Raxmei
Valkyries can transport anything but ogryn. Jump an infantry squad into a valk and it scores.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
We are going to have one of the best objective holding units in the game. Hell, put the objective in cover and give the whole unit the +2 cover save, try shooting up 50 guardsmen with 2+ cover saves
50 guardsmen with a commissar. Spread out around an objective, there is no way a charging enemy could get within 3" of the objective without killing a LOT of guardsmen.
As for taking objectives, that involves blowing away any units on the aforementioned objective with overwhelming firepower. After that, fly a squad of infantry onto the objective with a Valk (or drive with a chimera).
But I imagine that objectives games will go a lot like they do now, IG holds on to their objectives with huge masses of meat, and contests enemy objectives with vehicles and various units.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
It's funny, for a couple of days I pretty much agreed with H.B.M.C., when the armylist looked to be shaping up completely worthless. Now I find I'm not nearly as cynical anymore, but he's still stuck in that mindset.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'm not stuck in any damned mindset. If a unit is gak I'll call it gak. If it a unit is not, I'll say it's not. I don't know enough to say anything now other than comment on the rumours, which is all I will continue to do until such time as I see the Codex. Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Out of all the rumors you have heard about so far, what do you think an optimal build for guard would be @1500pts??
Troops and tanks. Elite units seem to be completely hosed, and Fast Attack isn't worth a damn now that the Nerfhound has arrived, so troops and tanks. Heavy emphasis on the Holy Trinity again ( HBs, ACs, LCs), especially given the price reductions. Merging of squads with similar guns, sparing use of ultra-flimsy KP-giving HW units (even if they are scoring), limited use of HQ (just enough to get the Orders flowing). If you don't want a pure Guard army then allied Sisters with Books to keep everyone in line. Beyond that, until I see points values, I won't know.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
Of course, the difference between us is that unlike you, I'm a true pessimist. You appear to have been expecting a better or at least competitive Codex and are disappointed by the crap we're getting.
Whereas I expected crap from the word go and am at least somewhat elated at finding that not everything is completely horrible. I'm easier to satisfy because I have no expectations, or illusions that my abysmal track record will improve any time soon (6.5% of total games won). On a fundamental level, I don't care nearly as much.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
bs.
We all care. We all want the best and hold out hope that things will improve, some of us more than others perhaps, but we all do. Maybe that makes some of us more delusional, but don't tout your 'true pessimist' nonsense like its some fething badge of honour.
2175
Post by: Chaplain Pallantide
Thanks H.B.M.C!
I appreciate the reply and your feedback.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
H.B.M.C. wrote:bs.
We all care. We all want the best and hold out hope that things will improve, some of us more than others perhaps, but we all do. Maybe that makes some of us more delusional, but don't tout your 'true pessimist' nonsense like its some fething badge of honour.
If you're the hallmark of sanity, I will gladly embrace my delusion.
5297
Post by: volair
It is pretty clear that with this codex you will see mostly 4 units, and little variety.
You will see command squads, merged infantry squads, vendetta squadrons, and leman russ squadrons (mostly the basic variety). Those units are completely superior to anything else in the codex.
Fortunately for me, that is exactly what I wanted to play with, so i am glad they made those units the best. I just feel sorry for people who deluded themselves into thinking that Imperial Guard would have a lot of variety (elite army, close combat army, etc...), because there really is one way to play them that is superior to all other variants.
5297
Post by: volair
Rough Riders are actually pretty good though. If you have a good concept for modeling them let me know. It is probably better to just take more infantry squads, but rough riders are good enough to play with and not feel like your handicapping yourself.
168
Post by: foil7102
volair wrote:It is pretty clear that with this codex you will see mostly 4 units, and little variety.
You will see command squads, merged infantry squads, vendetta squadrons, and leman russ squadrons (mostly the basic variety). Those units are completely superior to anything else in the codex.
Fortunately for me, that is exactly what I wanted to play with, so i am glad they made those units the best. I just feel sorry for people who deluded themselves into thinking that Imperial Guard would have a lot of variety (elite army, close combat army, etc...), because there really is one way to play them that is superior to all other variants.
QFT
Also would everyone please stop reading, and replying to focused fires posts. We have already concluded that he plays tau and eldar, not guard, and for some reason enjoys spouting garbage. DONT FEED THE TROLL.
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
I assume when people are talking about the must-have-ability of Leman Russ squadrons, that they're talking about games of 1750+. In anything smaller, taking 4+ tanks just seems like a tremendous point sink (except a Griffon/Hydra battery, I suspect). Putting over 600 points into 4 Leman Russes is doable in 1,000 points, but that leaves precious little points for boosting up those infantry swarms, doubly so if you want to run massed tanks and 2 or more Vendettas. foil7102 wrote:Also would everyone please stop reading, and replying to focused fires posts. We have already concluded that he plays tau and eldar, not guard, and for some reason enjoys spouting garbage. DONT FEED THE TROLL.
I might be inclined to agree with you in this specific case, but censoring him sets a poor precedent for upcoming conversations. I'm not sure if I want this forum to become the place where only Marine players can talk about the power level of Sternguard and only Tau players can complain about Vespids. Having to deal with posters whose ideas we cannot stomach is the price, I feel, of having a free and permissive forum in the first place.
5297
Post by: volair
I playtested an army with 3 command squads, 4 squads of 20 guardsmen, 2 squadrons of 2 leman russes, and 2 squadrons of 2 vendettas. So a total of 95 infantry and 8 vehicles. The first game was against a genestealer army. He surprised me with outflanking and his genestealers had the strength upgrade, so any vehicle squadrons or infantry squads he charged were cleaned up immediately. It was a draw because I killed so much of his stuff in the first two turns that even when he got to me he couldn't kill everything. The second game was against Tau and I horribly crushed him; it wasn't even close. My Vendettas wrecked his hammerheads and HQ with ease and my battlecannons and lasguns cleaned up all of his infantry and crisis suits. He didn't kill a single unit of mine. I feel that with better deployment and tactics I could have beaten the genestealer army, but I am used to playing eldar and dark eldar so I just have to get used to Imperial Guard. I won't jump to conclusions but it seems that Imperial Guard may be the anti-Tau. If he had 9 broadsides he might have had a chance.
168
Post by: foil7102
Agamemnon2 wrote:I assume when people are talking about the must-have-ability of Leman Russ squadrons, that they're talking about games of 1750+. In anything smaller, taking 4+ tanks just seems like a tremendous point sink (except a Griffon/Hydra battery, I suspect).
Putting over 600 points into 4 Leman Russes is doable in 1,000 points, but that leaves precious little points for boosting up those infantry swarms, doubly so if you want to run massed tanks and 2 or more Vendettas.
foil7102 wrote:Also would everyone please stop reading, and replying to focused fires posts. We have already concluded that he plays tau and eldar, not guard, and for some reason enjoys spouting garbage. DONT FEED THE TROLL.
I might be inclined to agree with you in this specific case, but censoring him sets a poor precedent for upcoming conversations. I'm not sure if I want this forum to become the place where only Marine players can talk about the power level of Sternguard and only Tau players can complain about Vespids. Having to deal with posters whose ideas we cannot stomach is the price, I feel, of having a free and permissive forum in the first place.
I agree, I am more concerned about the spouting garbage, as opposed to the fact that he does not play IG. I just included that fact so that the average reader would have something to judge the validity of his posts against.
1478
Post by: warboss
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm not stuck in any damned mindset. If a unit is gak I'll call it gak. If it a unit is not, I'll say it's not. I don't know enough to say anything now other than comment on the rumours, which is all I will continue to do until such time as I see the Codex.
Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Out of all the rumors you have heard about so far, what do you think an optimal build for guard would be @1500pts??
Troops and tanks. Elite units seem to be completely hosed, and Fast Attack isn't worth a damn now that the Nerfhound has arrived, so troops and tanks. Heavy emphasis on the Holy Trinity again ( HBs, ACs, LCs), especially given the price reductions. Merging of squads with similar guns, sparing use of ultra-flimsy KP-giving HW units (even if they are scoring), limited use of HQ (just enough to get the Orders flowing). If you don't want a pure Guard army then allied Sisters with Books to keep everyone in line.
Beyond that, until I see points values, I won't know.
i'd agree. i've already pruned my carrying case of my ogryns, ratlings, and rough riders. after bringing them but mostly not using them for several years, i think this would continue to be the case. using the points listed on warseer and the current codex when needed, i've got 101 figs (command hq, 2 platoons of 3 squads, 2 assault squads, two heavy squads), 2 sentinels, and 2 leman russ tanks in 1500pts. If i go up to 2000pts i can add my two stormtrooper squads, a basilisk, and a piece of wargear or two for the characters. all in all, a very generic plain human statline/figure list.
752
Post by: Polonius
Agamemnon2 wrote:
foil7102 wrote:Also would everyone please stop reading, and replying to focused fires posts. We have already concluded that he plays tau and eldar, not guard, and for some reason enjoys spouting garbage. DONT FEED THE TROLL.
I might be inclined to agree with you in this specific case, but censoring him sets a poor precedent for upcoming conversations. I'm not sure if I want this forum to become the place where only Marine players can talk about the power level of Sternguard and only Tau players can complain about Vespids. Having to deal with posters whose ideas we cannot stomach is the price, I feel, of having a free and permissive forum in the first place.
Puts on free speech hat....
Ok, Censorship is an act by some authority, not be people choosing what to read and respond to. It is literally an act of THE MAN, not any of us peons.
The key isnt' to only allow certain classes of people to discuss things, but to only take seriously and respond to those comments that show some insight, experience, knowledge, etc.
There is nothing wrong with saying about any given post, thread, or even poster, "this person clearly doesn't know what they are talking about" and moving on.
752
Post by: Polonius
So, reading these threads, my feelings on the IG codex have vacillated wildly. Based on the current rumors, and my understanding of them, my current feelings are pretty simple: mild enthusiasm.
The rumors that are being projected show a book that is designed to play at about 3000pts (but without apocolypse rules), and while there were two decent fixes to KPs (non-IC officers and lumped squads), the army will still tend to be KP heavy compared to nearly any other force. The current book has a mandatory and useful HQ, strong troops that have trouble taking and holding objectives, great heavies, one decent elites choice, and some ok fast. The new books looks to have... mandatory HQ, great troops, great heavies, one decent fast, and garbage for elites. It's a reshuffle job.
My main problem isn't the power level, or the insane pricing on the elites, it's the feeling I get that they spent a long weekend mining the Proposed Rules forums, wrote a few wacky rules, ran it all through the 5th edition standardization machine, and called it a day. None of the changes, barring the new Orders, were of any real surprise to us, in fact, the new platoons are startlingly similar to the platoons in the big black book in 3rd edition.
The IG have always had more deceptive variety than most armies, both codices have featured tons of options that simply never were worth taking. GW has gotten far better at that, releasing generally only one or two "bad" units per codex. If the rumors are true, IG will continue to hold that title.
So, I'm excited because as a men, guns, and tanks style player, I'm being catered to. My stormtroopers will sit on a shelf, and many players fringe armies will simply disappear, but I am glad that the solid core of the army is improving.
I can't wait to see the book, and do a proper review. I know I sound pretty negative now, but IMO the good bits GW has added are no brainers (chimeras should go down in price, right?), while some of the gak units should have been easy as pie to fix (who wouldn't like 8pt stormtroopers? Or Ogryn with rending? ).
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
Polonius: I 'ppreciate the semantical corrections.
warboss wrote:i'd agree. i've already pruned my carrying case of my ogryns, ratlings, and rough riders. after bringing them but mostly not using them for several years, i think this would continue to be the case. using the points listed on warseer and the current codex when needed, i've got 101 figs (command hq, 2 platoons of 3 squads, 2 assault squads, two heavy squads), 2 sentinels, and 2 leman russ tanks in 1500pts. If i go up to 2000pts i can add my two stormtrooper squads, a basilisk, and a piece of wargear or two for the characters. all in all, a very generic plain human statline/figure list.
I expect I'm going to see that kind of armies quite a lot, since the Guard is fairly popular around my playing community. I don't think facing cookie cutter armies is all that fun in the long run, I'm sure some would agree with me on this one.
It's doubly annoying because, the difference between a playable and unplayable unit in any given armylist is so small sometimes. For Ogryns, for example, it's about the difference between 30 and 40 points apiece. It's truely a pity, and a pity 'tis 'tis true.
752
Post by: Polonius
I think that might be the big proble: the idea that IG should be boring, or bland. You see it all over the place in the codex. Sure, basic platoons are probably pretty vanilla, but why are vets solely +1bs? Why not give them +1 WS & I, allow a medic for FnP, allow shotguns and LP/CCW, make 'em stubborn, price them around 9pts a peice, and make them genuine brawlers? then you can make stormtroopers a more pure BS4 special weapon platform. Heck you could add combat tactics to the stormtroopers to better differentiate the highly trained strike force and the grizzled die hards. that would make two units interesting!
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
Well, I think they've at least tried. STs in the new book will be getting those special "mission options", which would have made them a fun unit if not for the fact that they also got a hideously expensive new anti-Marine weapon at the same time.
Background-wise, when you have a large army that consists of thousands of identically armed troopers, being bland is pretty much expected.
752
Post by: Polonius
Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, I think they've at least tried. STs in the new book will be getting those special "mission options", which would have made them a fun unit if not for the fact that they also got a hideously expensive new anti-Marine weapon at the same time.
Background-wise, when you have a large army that consists of thousands of identically armed troopers, being bland is pretty much expected.
and that's just the mentality that I think GW uses. Compare IG to ASpect warriors. Both have a standard stat line, but there is insane variety in the craftworlds and almost non for the IG. There are ways to make units useful that don't involve making them space marines, and they could have done that.
In a battle hardened company, specialists will emerge, guys that have a knack for certain things. Yes, in the fluff most IG are monolithic, but in the game there's no reason not to make SWS, stormtroopers, and veterans all distinct.
11824
Post by: He Who Stood
my only REAL question, and i cant seem to find an answer of any kind is;
will HW still be allowed in the basic guard squads???
9598
Post by: Quintinus
Okay, so I just thought up a couple of kind of fun combinations.
Creed's "For Cadia!" order to a squad of Rough Riders. On the charge, they'll be Str 6 I 6 because of Furious Charge. Yes, that's right. And if they're still power weapons...ah...that's heavenly. Even if they're not, that's still really good.
Tank commander dude in a Demolisher with Plasma Cannon sponsons. Goodbye Nob Bikers, and well, pretty much anything.
Tank Commander Dude in an Executioner with Plasma Cannon sponsons. Sure the combo is like 300 points, but 5 Plasma cannon shots that all ignore cover (and are BS4 to boot) is awesome. I'll try this out in a game sometime and see what happens.
Dammit, I'm going to have to use special characters. Eh, I'll just do counts-as I think.
11824
Post by: He Who Stood
did we get general grizmund in the new codex?
he was ALWAYS one of my faves
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Post by: Agamemnon2
I suspect we're going to see a lot more of Creed and Kell. With the former giving 4 orders per turn, and the latter making those order checks easier to pass, they're a potential option for anyone who wants to try to make use of the orders system.
11729
Post by: Gestalt
Vladsimpaler wrote:Tank Commander Dude in an Executioner with Plasma Cannon sponsons. Sure the combo is like 300 points, but 5 Plasma cannon shots that all ignore cover (and are BS4 to boot) is awesome. I'll try this out in a game sometime and see what happens.
Where is the Ignore Cover part coming from?
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
He Who Stood wrote:did we get general grizmund in the new codex?
he was ALWAYS one of my faves
Nah, he's called Sergeant Pask or something. There were also rumors of a Leman Russ "squadron leader" upgrade that wasn't necessarily a special character. These may be one and the same, though. I haven't heard confirmation on the generic "squadron leader."
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Post by: halonachos
Quick question though, wouldn't LRBTs be weakened by the squadron rules? I mean you shake one and then the rest can't move without leaving it behind, thus destroying the shaken LRBT. So you can stun or shake one LRBT out of a squadron of 3 and then move out of range. If the tanks want to get you, then they must ditch the shaken guy.
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Post by: Mekboy
No, the rules for squadrens take care of this. Squadrens turn stunned results into shaken result. The downside of this is that immobilised goes to destroyed.
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Post by: halonachos
Thank god, I haven't had the rules in front of me in 2 months so thanks.
I'm hoping that there will be something like doctrines or wargear in terms of saves. Like the carapace armor, cameleoline, or even the skills and drills. The automatic +1 I and +1 Ld in CC for Close order drill was awesome.
Some people may be losing their army organization though if they can't deepstrike.
Can the normal troops use chimeras now?
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Post by: Platuan4th
halonachos wrote:Can the normal troops use chimeras now?
Yes, the regular platoon squads get Chimeras as an option. And a good thing, too, there's no Armoured Fist entry(at least not that we've heard, Troops seem to be Platoons, Penal squads, and vets).
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Troops and tanks. Elite units seem to be completely hosed, and Fast Attack isn't worth a damn now that the Nerfhound has arrived,
How can you say your fast attack is bad when you have the vendetta now? HOW?. Really, you are being a bit pessimistic with that one. You have the single best anti armor flying transport scout tank in the game. Your army now has flying predator anihalators with scout that can hold 12 guardsman each. For 30% less points.
Oh, and they can come in squadrons when you want.
agree, I am more concerned about the spouting garbage, as opposed to the fact that he does not play IG. I just included that fact so that the average reader would have something to judge the validity of his posts against.
In fairness to him, though you'll probably just view this as another non ig players invalid opinion a lot of the sentiments here have been a bit wishlisty. A few posters have tried defending the vendettas pricing, have stated that the plasmatank was overexpensive at 210 (when it was 210), and have essentially cried about how awful sentinals are since they only dropped a few points and not all of them.
He's trying to be the optimist in a thread of doomsayers and polonius/agamemnon.
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Post by: foil7102
Hey, personally I think the vendetta is a steal provided it stays fast attack and is not a heavy support. Russ squadrons will be hard for most armies to deal with since lumbering will basically double the firepower of an ig tank when it stays still (and why would you move it?) The new orders sound fun and fluffy, and heck even a little effective. I am saying that there are good portions to this book, but there are also some steaming piles as well. Anyone who thinks otherwise... well
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Post by: halonachos
I really don't see anything bad in this. I mean sure ST are now 6 pts more expensive, but they're AP3. The banewolf is perhaps one of the most compelling reasons for fast attack. An AP 3 template weapon that wounds on a 2+!! I may take 3 fast choices of these guys alone.
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Post by: stonefox
You're saying that an upgrade to a S3 gun to AP3 is worth 6 points?
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Post by: CommissarKhaine
ShumaGorath wrote:
Troops and tanks. Elite units seem to be completely hosed, and Fast Attack isn't worth a damn now that the Nerfhound has arrived,
How can you say your fast attack is bad when you have the vendetta now? HOW?. Really, you are being a bit pessimistic with that one. You have the single best anti armor flying transport scout tank in the game. Your army now has flying predator anihalators with scout that can hold 12 guardsman each. For 30% less points.
Oh, and they can come in squadrons when you want.
agree, I am more concerned about the spouting garbage, as opposed to the fact that he does not play IG. I just included that fact so that the average reader would have something to judge the validity of his posts against.
In fairness to him, though you'll probably just view this as another non ig players invalid opinion a lot of the sentiments here have been a bit wishlisty. A few posters have tried defending the vendettas pricing, have stated that the plasmatank was overexpensive at 210 (when it was 210), and have essentially cried about how awful sentinals are since they only dropped a few points and not all of them.
He's trying to be the optimist in a thread of doomsayers and polonius/agamemnon.
I wouldn't say it a thread full of doomsayers, but I have to agree that this seems a bit harsh. Especally since focussed fire was the cictim rather then the offender here IMHO...
Besides I'd like to point out some good stuff in the codex as well. For those wondering: Yes I play IG, yes I play tourneys, and yes I still feel OK with th e new codex  .
- Vendetta and valks. Enough said
- RR squadrons remain the same, and are still pretty good.
- The Nerfhound's role seems to have changed, bit with either melta or flame turets he seems quite nice. Considering the main vulnerability to vehicles are melta weapons and cc, moving 12" and still being able to fire your main weapon opens up some interesting options. Imagine, if you will, the ork horde approaching, lootas on a hill, 80 orks hell bent on kicking some IG a$$... The, imagine twho hellhound, moving forward 12", turning 90°, then hosing the orks with flame. Lots of dead orks, an av12 wall that can only be hit on a 6 in cc, and lootas can only glance it. Now imagine the face of the ork player . If you're moving 12", being close to the enemy may be safer since you'll get cover saves from his troops, he won't be as eage to use ordnance, and you're able to tank shock if necessary.
- Vets still seem pretty decent. Of course we don't have 5 dropping H-vetswith melta anymore; they were too good for what they did
- Both penal legion and psychic choir sound interesting
- 30 point walking basilisk with 5+ ablative wounds and FNP
- Squadronning of vehicles
- Lots of new vehicles.
- very good troops choices
- Kill points have been adressed. Not in they way everyone wanetd, but face it: IG bled KPs because of the grunts and the IC that really weren't; both have been fixed.
This codex will take away some of the must-haves of the old ones, but I feel there's a lot of potential that we're just not seeing because we don't get the full picture. I jus t think it's a shame people are only focussing on the things that seem less then perfect or don't live up to their expectations.
Disclaimer: I don"t work for GW
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Post by: Janthkin
CommissarKhaine wrote:- Vendetta and valks. Enough said
- RR squadrons remain the same, and are still pretty good.
- The Nerfhound's role seems to have changed, bit with either melta or flame turets he seems quite nice. Considering the main vulnerability to vehicles are melta weapons and cc, moving 12" and still being able to fire your main weapon opens up some interesting options. Imagine, if you will, the ork horde approaching, lootas on a hill, 80 orks hell bent on kicking some IG a$$... The, imagine twho hellhound, moving forward 12", turning 90°, then hosing the orks with flame. Lots of dead orks, an av12 wall that can only be hit on a 6 in cc, and lootas can only glance it. Now imagine the face of the ork player . If you're moving 12", being close to the enemy may be safer since you'll get cover saves from his troops, he won't be as eage to use ordnance, and you're able to tank shock if necessary.
- Vets still seem pretty decent. Of course we don't have 5 dropping H-vetswith melta anymore; they were too good for what they did
- Both penal legion and psychic choir sound interesting
- 30 point walking basilisk with 5+ ablative wounds and FNP
- Squadronning of vehicles
- Lots of new vehicles.
- very good troops choices
- Kill points have been adressed. Not in they way everyone wanetd, but face it: IG bled KPs because of the grunts and the IC that really weren't; both have been fixed.
Lootas have S7 guns; they eat AV 12 for breakfast.
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Post by: halonachos
stonefox wrote:You're saying that an upgrade to a S3 gun to AP3 is worth 6 points?
Actually yes I am. I don't care what you say, but ST can now kill SM without taking plasma guns.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Str 3 ap3, better armor, missions, orders, and more attacks is probably worth 6 points. They got a lot more than just the guns.
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Post by: Necros
when it comes to any gun, all that matters to me is how many ap3 shots they can do. I will be more than happy to use stormtroopers just because of the ap. So what if they only wound on 5's? Every 5 & 6 = dead marines.
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Post by: Polonius
I'm going to want to see the prices for the nerfhounds before I commit too thorougly, but I'm not convinced they're awful. To be fair, I'm not enamored with the current version, and I actually played them in the old 3rd edition rules.
They seem to fill a more set role in the new codex: fast moving vehicle. the problem with the Hound has always been that while it could move, had decent fire power, was sort of durable, and not horribly expensive, it didn't actually do anythign that well. The newer hounds seem to emphasize speed, with even more limited fire power than before. However, they are more capable at the one thing IG suffer at: clearing enemies from objectives on cover.
As for the vendetta/valkerie, I'm not sold on them until I see the total points. They look good, but I"m waiting for a tidbit like "may add two lascannons for +75pts" or something. If they show up for a good price, they'll be a great addition.
the only two units that seem really useless right now are Stormtroopers and Ogryn. They're almost useless now, so it's not a huge loss, but watching GW take yet another swing and still fail to connect is just sad IMO. They look to be joining Swooping Hawks, Mega Armored Nobz, and Tyranid Warriors in the "We just can't figure out how to make these guys good" shelf.
Am I the only person whose still worried about IG in Kill Points missions? IG will cough up fewer points, to be sure, but it'll still be high. I'm not sure what else could be done, and I think more and more tournaments are moving away from KP as the primary mission objective.
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Post by: Polonius
ShumaGorath wrote:Str 3 ap3, better armor, missions, orders, and more attacks is probably worth 6 points. They got a lot more than just the guns.
Better armor than what? Old stormtroopers or the rumored veterans?
The problem with any comparison to the old STs is that they were pretty much universally held to be ~2pts overcosted.
I think it's going to come down to what exactly they can do in terms of orders, and what the missions actually turn out to be. As it stands, AP3 isn't worth much on a short ranged, S3 gun on a fragile platfom, HP/ CCW isn't worth much (it would be worth something if combined with WS4, representing a unit that can almost stand up in combat).
It's not a lost cause, after all Harlies are worth a lot and are almost as fragile, but they are very, very good at their job ( HtH shock unit), and Stormtroopers are not gonig to be amazingly good at their job (shooting things).
As a non-troops choice, the Storms are going to be competing at those prices with things like LRBTS, and that's a valuable asset that can now be taken in greater numbers., or with two AC/ GL squads, or with a chimera and a sentinel squadrod, etc.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
They look to be joining Swooping Hawks, Mega Armored Nobz, and Tyranid Warriors in the "We just can't figure out how to make these guys good" shelf.
Clearly you've never looked down the barrels of 8 deathspitters at the same time before. Toxin sac deathspitter warrior squads are death incarnate. They will kill anything they point their guns at with a degree of certainty. They do it on the cheap too.
It's not a lost cause, after all Harlies are worth a lot and are almost as fragile, but they are very, very good at their job (HtH shock unit), and Stormtroopers are not gonig to be amazingly good at their job (shooting things).
Their job is to shoot highly protected or inaccessible things, not "things". Which is a job that no other unit in the new codex looks like it will have. Have an objective across the board with some camo cloak scouts hunkering down in it? Stormies with flamers. Pathfinders? Stormies with flamers. Got a whirlwind messing you up stuck behind two buildings? Stormies with melta. Broadsides giving you fits? Stormies with plasma. The accurate deepstrike and flanking missions on a high output alpha strike unit should not be underestimated. There are plenty of units in the game that don't at first glance appear to be excellent, and many which seem better then they really are. For a unit like this its all in how well you can use them.
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Post by: Shep
Hey guys, hung out with my good friend and excellent 40k player John and we talked new dex, I wanted to add some of our thoughts to this discussion, we were talking mainly about power lists, once I figure out a couple winners, then I'll move on more to the fun lists. Here are a couple 1750s and a new cover save concept for side shots on vehicle squadrons.
I put this up last week.
command squad with artillery officer
chimera
3x10 veterans with 3x3 meltaguns
3x chimera
2x3 leman russ
manticore
Played a game with an ork list built to beat it. Misplayed it heavily, its not worth a batrep, but I would recommend finding points for the fleet officer. My ork opponent ran 3x1 deffkopta with rokkits and 3x5 kommandos with power klaw and 9x killa kans. it was admittedly built to beat the list I told him i was bringing. (he doesn't like to lose) haha. The russ squads are close to impervious to shooting, but are as vulnerable to CC as they are invulnearble to ranged fire. Your entire gameplan needs to revolve around keeping them screened, fortunately that is totally doable. The naked russes were causing about 15 wounds per shot to the ork units. What that translated to in game terms was... if they were eradicators i win, if they are russes I lose.
Here are some new lists to discuss.
command squad artillery officer and fleet officer
chimera
4x10 veterans with 4x3 meltaguns
4x chimera
3x griffon
3x griffon
2x plasma executioner with plasma sponsons
Large blast barrages can rack up a lot of hits, when you read the rules carefully. For half the points of 3x russes, the griffon can kill at least twice as many orks. they have no ability to hurt tanks, but being lured into shooting at a tank with a 450 point unit of russes is a temptation most of us can live without. I guarantee it won't yield 450 points of tank hurt
The plasma executioners are in there to answer to deep striking tank killing elements like crisis suits/terminators/oblits and to help with some long range weakening of MCs. The griffons are better against everything other than marines than the leman russes, and they can be very well screened by the chimeras, if they can't find true los blocking. I can guarantee them 4+ cover from the front and the sides very easily.
And this next one, if the unrestricted access to chimeras is actually true, and their firepoints rumor is true, might be the one I'm most scared of...
command squad fleet officer ordnance officer
chimera
platoon command and some kind of weapon
chimera
2x infantry squad autocannon/grenade launcher
2x chimera
3x HWS 3x3 lascannons
3x chimera
2x HWS 2x3 autocannons
2x chimera
2x SWS 3x3 meltas
2x chimeras
veterans 3x meltas
chimera
So this firepower is obscene! here's the count.
9x lascannons, 8x autocannons, 12x meltaguns, 12x multi-lasers, 12x heavy bolters. Its a huge amount of kill points, but every chimera except one scores, (units inside the chimera are troops just to head off any "vehicles don't score" replies) Once you've stripped an armies ability to kill armor 12 from long range or their power fists, you are in pretty good shape. this one is really just building blocks, i haven't even set it up on a table yet but it looks pretty intimidating. 41 heavy weapons coming from an entirely armor 12 firebase.
Ok i mentioned the cover save thing. This is going to be tough to do with ascii, but I'll try.
R_C_R_R//R_R_C_R
____C_C__C_C____
The C's are chimeras, the Rs are squadroned russes, the leftmost 3 russes are one squadron and the rightmost are the other.
In this formation, all russes have 4+ cover to the front as 2 of 3 are obscured by the chimeras. The formation also has side armor 13 with a 4+ cover save as any firer that has a side arc shot on the outermost russ will have the other two russes in the squadron obscured by the chimera separating them. Yes, the chimera measures less than 4" wide.
When you are up against a shooty army, and you don't need to screen russes from charges, you can just get all the chimeras 4+ cover and LOS through the russes up front...
__C_C_C_C_C_C
_R_R_R//R_R_R
Or when playing against a slow choppy army...
RR/ RR
CR/ RC
.C.C.C
Russes can see right over chimeras, assuming the unit being fired at is getting cover any way or you took eradicators, then you can have a decent physical screen from charges while you mop up.
My recommendation after a playtesting game and hours of discussion with the gaming group. Take eradicators or griffons, cover is too good, period. If you can't fight in CC cover will ruin you. And take the fleet officer, its not really to delay the reserves so much, although that is awesome, but spoiling the out-flank rolls a little bit is game breaking, especially in spearhead.
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Post by: Polonius
ShumaGorath wrote:
They look to be joining Swooping Hawks, Mega Armored Nobz, and Tyranid Warriors in the "We just can't figure out how to make these guys good" shelf.
Clearly you've never looked down the barrels of 8 deathspitters at the same time before. Toxin sac deathspitter warrior squads are death incarnate. They will kill anything they point their guns at with a degree of certainty. They do it on the cheap too.
I have not, but IIRC that unit only became the hawtness after 5th edition, not as a result of actual, you know, design. I'm also not sure I'd called ~250pts cheap, but YMMV.
Their job is to shoot highly protected or inaccessible things, not "things". Which is a job that no other unit in the new codex looks like it will have. Have an objective across the board with some camo cloak scouts hunkering down in it? Stormies with flamers. Pathfinders? Stormies with flamers. Got a whirlwind messing you up stuck behind two buildings? Stormies with melta. Broadsides giving you fits? Stormies with plasma. The accurate deepstrike and flanking missions on a high output alpha strike unit should not be underestimated. There are plenty of units in the game that don't at first glance appear to be excellent, and many which seem better then they really are. For a unit like this its all in how well you can use them.
Well, the uses your describing are essnetially suicide drop type uses, making a unit of 5 roughly a 100pt shot that can still scatter into trouble. I'm not saying they're worthless, but you're probably not going to kill even 5 scouts with two flamers and 3 hellguns. You'll take the piss out 'em, sure, but it's not the sure thing you seem to think. Even with a re-roll, getting flamers to land close to an enemy unit is tricky.
With a fast hellhound, Vakyries deep striking basic squads and/or vets, and chimeras cheap enough to be used to actually move squads, i think there is stiff competition for even the role of behind the lines flusher.
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Post by: gorgon
ShumaGorath wrote:Clearly you've never looked down the barrels of 8 deathspitters at the same time before. Toxin sac deathspitter warrior squads are death incarnate. They will kill anything they point their guns at with a degree of certainty. They do it on the cheap too.
Just wanted to make a side point for clarity's sake. What you're actually arguing with Tyranid Warriors is that players will find ways to use a unit even if it's not what's needed or intended. Tyranid Warriors actually don't do their intended job as well as they should. Somewhat ironically, effective shooting isn't needed by Tyranid armies so much as durable, reliable forward synapse, and Warriors are so-so in that role. Polonius also makes a fair and important point that said build only became effective because of main rules changes four years after the codex was designed.
I'm not enough of an IG expert to really have an informed opinion on ST, but that price tag is certainly high enough for a semi-suicide unit to give anyone pause.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
I have not, but IIRC that unit only became the hawtness after 5th edition, not as a result of actual, you know, design. I'm also not sure I'd called ~250pts cheap, but YMMV.
Certainly true enough, though drop melta vets weren't spectacular until fifth edition either. Thats neither here nor there though.
Just wanted to make a side point for clarity's sake. What you're actually arguing with Tyranid Warriors is that players will find ways to use a unit even if it's not what's needed or intended. Tyranid Warriors actually don't do their intended job as well as they should. Somewhat ironically, effective shooting isn't needed by Tyranid armies so much as durable, reliable forward synapse, and Warriors are so-so in that role. Polonius also makes a fair and important point that said build only became effective because of main rules changes four years after the codex was designed.
Fair enough.
I'm not enough of an IG expert to really have an informed opinion on ST, but that price tag is certainly high enough for a semi-suicide unit to give anyone pause.
I used to pay that much for a pair of lictors, and considerably more for infiltrating stealers (though admittedly lictors are just awful). I now pay considerably more than that for a sternguard squad, and once assembled I'm going to be paying more for a squad of melta drop pod marine command squadies (dear god they are cost effective).
It's in the eye of the beholder I suppose. Many armies pay as much or more for suicide units. The guard are just new to the concept of a suicide unit over 100 points.
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Post by: Polonius
ShumaGorath wrote:
Certainly true enough, though drop melta vets weren't spectacular until fifth edition either. Thats neither here nor there though.
Nope. They rocked hard in 4th edition as well. They did get better with 5th, as no missions lacked deep strike, outflank gave them a new option, and they could even be held back for counter charge, but they were a great unit in 4th edition.
I used to pay that much for a pair of lictors, and considerably more for infiltrating stealers (though admittedly lictors are just awful). I now pay considerably more than that for a sternguard squad, and once assembled I'm going to be paying more for a squad of melta drop pod marine command squadies (dear god they are cost effective).
It's in the eye of the beholder I suppose. Many armies pay as much or more for suicide units. The guard are just new to the concept of a suicide unit over 100 points.
The point we're making is that comparisons to Sternguard are difficult, because sternguard can both do more damage (with combi-meltas), can split fire (with combat squads), can land far more accurately (with a pod), and are substantially more resilient (with T4, LD9, ATSKNF, and a 3+ save), that comparisons break down a bit. Stern guard reliably drop a landraider or an MC. I'm not sure stormtroopers can do that. If there are no other options available, stormtroopers might rise to the occaision, but I'm not going to run a suicide squad that's more expensive than either what it destroys, or what it protects by knocking out a threatening unit.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
Shep wrote:Hey guys, hung out with my good friend and excellent 40k player John and we talked new dex, I wanted to add some of our thoughts to this discussion, we were talking mainly about power lists, once I figure out a couple winners, then I'll move on more to the fun lists. Here are a couple 1750s and a new cover save concept for side shots on vehicle squadrons.
I put this up last week.
command squad with artillery officer
chimera
3x10 veterans with 3x3 meltaguns
3x chimera
2x3 leman russ
manticore
Played a game with an ork list built to beat it. Misplayed it heavily, its not worth a batrep, but I would recommend finding points for the fleet officer. My ork opponent ran 3x1 deffkopta with rokkits and 3x5 kommandos with power klaw and 9x killa kans. it was admittedly built to beat the list I told him i was bringing. (he doesn't like to lose) haha. The russ squads are close to impervious to shooting, but are as vulnerable to CC as they are invulnearble to ranged fire. Your entire gameplan needs to revolve around keeping them screened, fortunately that is totally doable. The naked russes were causing about 15 wounds per shot to the ork units. What that translated to in game terms was... if they were eradicators i win, if they are russes I lose.
Really? So 6 Russes didn't do the job, then? Do you feel confident that the anti-cover save round makes up for the lack of range compared to the standard Russ? How different of a result do you feel this would have made? Are we talking that it would have made it a close game instead of a loss or that it would have wiped the board?
Shep wrote:Here are some new lists to discuss.
command squad artillery officer and fleet officer
chimera
4x10 veterans with 4x3 meltaguns
4x chimera
3x griffon
3x griffon
2x plasma executioner with plasma sponsons
Large blast barrages can rack up a lot of hits, when you read the rules carefully. For half the points of 3x russes, the griffon can kill at least twice as many orks. they have no ability to hurt tanks, but being lured into shooting at a tank with a 450 point unit of russes is a temptation most of us can live without. I guarantee it won't yield 450 points of tank hurt
The plasma executioners are in there to answer to deep striking tank killing elements like crisis suits/terminators/oblits and to help with some long range weakening of MCs. The griffons are better against everything other than marines than the leman russes, and they can be very well screened by the chimeras, if they can't find true los blocking. I can guarantee them 4+ cover from the front and the sides very easily.
I can see this doing very well against Orks, but how would it do vs. say a similar armor-heavy Guard army?
Shep wrote:And this next one, if the unrestricted access to chimeras is actually true, and their firepoints rumor is true, might be the one I'm most scared of...
command squad fleet officer ordnance officer
chimera
platoon command and some kind of weapon
chimera
2x infantry squad autocannon/grenade launcher
2x chimera
3x HWS 3x3 lascannons
3x chimera
2x HWS 2x3 autocannons
2x chimera
2x SWS 3x3 meltas
2x chimeras
veterans 3x meltas
chimera
So this firepower is obscene! here's the count.
9x lascannons, 8x autocannons, 12x meltaguns, 12x multi-lasers, 12x heavy bolters. Its a huge amount of kill points, but every chimera except one scores, (units inside the chimera are troops just to head off any "vehicles don't score" replies) Once you've stripped an armies ability to kill armor 12 from long range or their power fists, you are in pretty good shape. this one is really just building blocks, i haven't even set it up on a table yet but it looks pretty intimidating. 41 heavy weapons coming from an entirely armor 12 firebase.
That's a boatload of Chimeras. As opposed to the above list which will do better vs horde and worse vs armor, I see this as the opposite. I can see horde orks giving this some problems. The other thing I'd be interested to see from your playtesting is how well these armies do in KP missions. Have you figured out a list optimized for KP yet?
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Post by: Wehrkind
I was knocking around ideas for the Psyker Choir (or whatever it is called) and am thinking that a LD beat down focused army using IG and Inq. could be fun (if not terribly effective).
Use say a Psyker squad to drop a unit's LD to 6 or 7, assuming that is what they do. Fearless units don't care, until you drop a Callidus next to them and hit them with a neural shredder, wounding on a 2-3+ with an AP1 template.
If you have snipers (ratling or otherwise) you can almost certainly get a pinned result after dropping a unit's LD down so low it can't pass a check.
An immolator with Holy Promethium making every wound count as a 25% loss requiring a LD check.
Tank shock...
I don't remember for certain, but I think Daemonhosts have a fear causing ability.
I suspect I am missing a few more things that exploit low leadership targets, but just those make for a fun/wierd army idea. I am kind of excited now to make an army based around that mechanic, assuming it doesn't secretly suck.
6872
Post by: sourclams
Your psychic choir idea is very interesting and a lot will depend on how important LOS is/how easily the Choir can be protected and their range. If they're reasonably economical points-wise, this could be a very powerful addition to a "standard" list, especially in pushing troops off of objectives.
5344
Post by: Shep
Death By Monkeys wrote:
Really? So 6 Russes didn't do the job, then? Do you feel confident that the anti-cover save round makes up for the lack of range compared to the standard Russ? How different of a result do you feel this would have made? Are we talking that it would have made it a close game instead of a loss or that it would have wiped the board?
The range certainly is a big issue, and I think its valid. Thats kinda why I like griffons as well as eradicators. Against the particular list I played against, if my russes were eradicators and I had the fleet officer, I would have tabled him. i wouldn't have been tempted to put my pie plates on KFF covered killa kans, I would have shredded the two units that had KFF meks, then after screening my russes from kan charges i would have put my 9 meltas onto the kans... with no cover saves, they'd have dropped fast. the way the game went, I put my entire army into one kan unit. After all the scattering was done, I had killed 12 orks in two different units and one kan and crew shook another. Game was over at that point. if those 6 russes ignored cover, then turn one I say -1 30 man ork unit with KFF. On turn 2 I say - another 30 man unit and the other KFF, and then probably get thrashed by whatever kan unit had the best run rolls. Then on turn three I kill 5 or 6 killa kans with my BS4 meltas, whatever I have left in leman russes at this point can start picking at his last remaining ork unit. The kommandos and deffkoptas were absolutely devastating to me. i lost a manticore and a chimera and got three leman russ weapon destroyeds and 2x crew shakens from those 6 units. Disrupting them with the fleet officer would have saved me from the big loss I took, even with my bad tactical decision i made on turn 1.
Death By Monkeys wrote:I can see this doing very well against Orks, but how would it do vs. say a similar armor-heavy Guard army?
Well, I knew that standard russes weren't the greatest anti-tank shot when they were single tanks. For some dumb reason i thought that somehow having three of them would make the unit a tank killer. It is obviously better at killing tanks, but not cost effective. 6 standard russes wouldn't help me face off against armor 14 spammers. I'll need my melta guns for that, or spammed HWS with lascannons and order support.
I can't really imagine what guard armor versus guard armor will be like. I'm assuming he who gets his melta guns into position first wins. or if one of them had 6-9 lascannons then he has the edge. This is the kinda matchup that makes you want to plump for infiltrators and an astropath on your veterans. Thats going to be devastating to armor spam, a chimera full of 3x Bs4 meltas flanking early and accurately.
Death By Monkeys wrote:That's a boatload of Chimeras. As opposed to the above list which will do better vs horde and worse vs armor, I see this as the opposite. I can see horde orks giving this some problems. The other thing I'd be interested to see from your playtesting is how well these armies do in KP missions. Have you figured out a list optimized for KP yet?
The KP optimization is easy. Just take veterans and stay away from platoons. Not to say that platoons are KP disasters, but if you aren't feeling like micromanaging a sub-set of KP, then just don't take any of the macro-units.
KP are very tricky when it comes to armor, because once you've killed an enemies ability to kill armor then you just get to scratch every vehicle off of your KP list. That 24 KP army I just posted drops immediately to a 0 KP army the second you eliminate heavy weapons and/or power fists. Not ever gonna happen practically speaking, but the concept is sound.
In that playtest game this weekend, I would have loved KP. With his 6 outflanking units, and 4 troop units and 3x kan units, I was way up. He went right after my russes, which were only worth 2 total KP, I conceded when i stopped learning, he would have gotten all 6 russes at the end. But I had already tallied 3 deffkoptas, 2 units of kans, 2 troop units, 2 big meks and 1 kommando unit, he was a manticore a chimera one vet unit and 2 russ squadrons into me. He had a lone kan and 2 5 man ork units in sight of my guns. i don't think KP would have ended well for him. But that wasn't the mission, and he had me beat. And it was cover saves that made it happen for him.
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Post by: Corpsman_of_Krieg
Seems to me that if Veterans are as good as they sound, I might just field my Kasrkin as Carapace Armored Vets with a Chimera or something. They'll lose the AP3 Lasgun, but will gain a 3rd Plasma Gun in each Squad, and will give me an opportunity to try modeling a Storm-Trooper style Heavy Weapon.
I'd really like to see what is in store for Storm Troopers, though. My first impression is "Holy gak, you expect me to pay 16 points per model for that?!" but with all their orders and the ST Special Character I keep hearing about, I am hesistant to pass judgement. All I know for sure is that until leaked pages or the 2nd of May rolls around, I will be in the dark.
CK
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Post by: Raxmei
Recent from warseer user Lamoron "This is correct, but Creed has a 24" command radius (making him damn near mandatory) and Kell takes the place of a veteran (not standard bearer). Kell allows the unit he's in to use the officers leadership instead of the units, for units affected by that officers orders. Kell does NOT need to be in the same squad as creed, but they get a "look out sir" rule if they are."
Every time I hear something new about Creed the word "mandatory" springs immediately to mind. HBMC must be happy.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Raxmei wrote:HBMC must be happy.
Fuming, more like it. I'm tired of mandatory unspecial Special Characters. If he really does have a 24" Command Radius (so, 48" diameter, which is huge) then he will be mandatory, especially with the (completely unecessary) loss of regular Command Radii. End of Story.
Every Guard army will have Creed, and he joins the ranks of Eldrad as one of the most overused characters in the game.
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Post by: Corpsman_of_Krieg
Does that mean that Eldratar is to Imperial Creedard as Spawn are to Ogryn?
CK
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Post by: BoxANT
Creed/Kell are sounding more and more powerful. 4 orders that allow for FC/fearless (not only great for charging into objectives, but also auto rallys any fleeing troops). Now a 24" Leadership bubble, which is again, huge. So you will be able to have 4 HWS all getting CHQ orders at LD10 (instead of Ld7). Gives a unit Scout (not to be underestimated in the least), and may even have other abilities.
However, we do not have the price of C&K yet, so although he sounds like the King Kong of HQs, he may cost a lot.
But personally, I am hoping not, because I love Creed and Kell, like any loyal son of Cadia!
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Post by: BrookM
Mind ya'll, Creed is the Lord Castellan of Cadia, making him a lite-version of Calgar to some degree.
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Post by: Dexy
I heard Creed was an upgrade of the CHQ for +80 points.
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Post by: foil7102
BrookM wrote:Mind ya'll, Creed is the Lord Castellan of Cadia, making him a lite-version of Calgar to some degree.
So, he is only over one planet.... Small fry.... Get me an IG segmentum commandar at the very minimum...
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Post by: foil7102
Dexy wrote:I heard Creed was an upgrade of the CHQ for +80 points.
If true, than he is manditory.....
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Post by: A-P
Just completed a round rumour checking before going to bed. The latest info seemed to be that Creeds large bubble is not old type general leadership thing but instead used for Orders only.
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Post by: Shep
foil7102 wrote:Dexy wrote:I heard Creed was an upgrade of the CHQ for +80 points.
If true, than he is manditory.....
So he can give orders to units that are 24" away. Like any commander is supposedly able to do given a vox network, He can give two extra orders which seems nice, but his special character order gives a guard unit close combat abilities. I'm sure we can all live without that. 80 points is enough to buy another HQ command squad if thats legal, and possibly enough to buy two more platoon command squads, giving us those two orders back.
And at 80 points i can buy a griffon, a hydra, a veteran unit, 2 autocannon sentinels, a heavy weapon squad with heavy bolters, a special weapon squad with 3 of anything, and countless other 'less good' stuff.
Its looking more likely that he'll be playable, but avoidable.
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
I'm kinda bummed out that we won't be seeing a 'Gaunts ghosts' style scout squad. Some crazy infiltrating neigh invisible scoring marine killing goodness would have been fun to play with. *edit* of course, a 0-1 choice.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Kungfuhustler wrote:I'm kinda bummed out that we won't be seeing a 'Gaunts ghosts' style scout squad. Some crazy infiltrating neigh invisible scoring marine killing goodness would have been fun to play with. *edit* of course, a 0-1 choice.
Isn't that what the Vets w/ Camo Cloaks, Move through Terrain, and Infiltrate are? I mean, other than some plasma or melta shots, they won't do much good versus SM, but the Ghosts have only rarely, rarely faced CSM in the books. And when they have, it hasn't been an easy fight.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Shep wrote: i lost a manticore and a chimera and got three leman russ weapon destroyeds and 2x crew shakens from those 6 units. Disrupting them with the fleet officer would have saved me from the big loss I took, even with my bad tactical decision i made on turn 1.
Which reminds me - I'd also meant to ask how the Manticore fared for you.
Death By Monkeys wrote:I can see this doing very well against Orks, but how would it do vs. say a similar armor-heavy Guard army?
Shep wrote:I can't really imagine what guard armor versus guard armor will be like. I'm assuming he who gets his melta guns into position first wins. or if one of them had 6-9 lascannons then he has the edge. This is the kinda matchup that makes you want to plump for infiltrators and an astropath on your veterans. Thats going to be devastating to armor spam, a chimera full of 3x Bs4 meltas flanking early and accurately.
Yeah, it's actually really surprised me that no one has talked about continuing to take Inquisitors w/ Mystics to protect the backfield. It'll be expensive, but 3x melta vets in a Vendetta will be a hard unit to beat when it comes to tank-killing power.
Shep wrote:The KP optimization is easy. Just take veterans and stay away from platoons. Not to say that platoons are KP disasters, but if you aren't feeling like micromanaging a sub-set of KP, then just don't take any of the macro-units.
That's a good point. And squadronable vehicles work very nicely towards this as well.
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Post by: BoxANT
Shep wrote:foil7102 wrote:Dexy wrote:I heard Creed was an upgrade of the CHQ for +80 points.
If true, than he is manditory.....
So he can give orders to units that are 24" away. Like any commander is supposedly able to do given a vox network, He can give two extra orders which seems nice, but his special character order gives a guard unit close combat abilities. I'm sure we can all live without that. 80 points is enough to buy another HQ command squad if thats legal, and possibly enough to buy two more platoon command squads, giving us those two orders back.
And at 80 points i can buy a griffon, a hydra, a veteran unit, 2 autocannon sentinels, a heavy weapon squad with heavy bolters, a special weapon squad with 3 of anything, and countless other 'less good' stuff.
Its looking more likely that he'll be playable, but avoidable.
I think you are overlooking the fact that Creed not only gives the squad Furious Charge (nice for RR, and a charging horde of conscripts) but the same Order also gives Fearless. If we have a squad who failed their morale and is running, Creed can make them fearless and they auto regroup (even underhalf strength, and even within 6" of enemy).
If Creed is really 80pts, I think he will be finding a way into most of my 1500+ lists.
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Post by: Janthkin
BoxANT wrote:I think you are overlooking the fact that Creed not only gives the squad Furious Charge (nice for RR, and a charging horde of conscripts) but the same Order also gives Fearless. If we have a squad who failed their morale and is running, Creed can make them fearless and they auto regroup (even underhalf strength, and even within 6" of enemy).
If Creed is really 80pts, I think he will be finding a way into most of my 1500+ lists.
The devil remains in the details. Does the Fearless order persist through the following enemy turn? Can a Fleeing unit take orders?
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Post by: BoxANT
Janthkin wrote:BoxANT wrote:I think you are overlooking the fact that Creed not only gives the squad Furious Charge (nice for RR, and a charging horde of conscripts) but the same Order also gives Fearless. If we have a squad who failed their morale and is running, Creed can make them fearless and they auto regroup (even underhalf strength, and even within 6" of enemy).
If Creed is really 80pts, I think he will be finding a way into most of my 1500+ lists.
The devil remains in the details. Does the Fearless order persist through the following enemy turn? Can a Fleeing unit take orders?
True, more details are needed, but considering one of the SC is said to have an Order that gives Furious Charge and Counter-Attack (which would do nothing if it didn't work in enemy turn), i think it is a safe bet to think that they will work in both yours and your opponents following turn.
As for giving Orders to fleeing units, hopefully!
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
Death By Monkeys wrote:Kungfuhustler wrote:I'm kinda bummed out that we won't be seeing a 'Gaunts ghosts' style scout squad. Some crazy infiltrating neigh invisible scoring marine killing goodness would have been fun to play with. *edit* of course, a 0-1 choice.
Isn't that what the Vets w/ Camo Cloaks, Move through Terrain, and Infiltrate are? I mean, other than some plasma or melta shots, they won't do much good versus SM, but the Ghosts have only rarely, rarely faced CSM in the books. And when they have, it hasn't been an easy fight.
I guess you're right. That is basically what they are. Maybe Ghosts would have +1 ws or somthing, or their shots would be rending. I dunno. I should kill some (more) time and write a Tanith 1st mini-dex. lol, rending las guns! Only the 1st and only!
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Post by: ph34r
The thing about tanith is that they are the main characters and they basically have to win. It's like a movie marine army, it's an interesting idea but doesn't really work in the game.
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Post by: Shep
BoxANT wrote:
I think you are overlooking the fact that Creed not only gives the squad Furious Charge (nice for RR, and a charging horde of conscripts) but the same Order also gives Fearless. If we have a squad who failed their morale and is running, Creed can make them fearless and they auto regroup (even underhalf strength, and even within 6" of enemy).
If Creed is really 80pts, I think he will be finding a way into most of my 1500+ lists.
Doesn't everyone have the "hey you! regroup and unpin yourself!" order? That seems like it would do what you were saying the fearless half of "for cadia!" would do.
And he doesn't seem to be 80 points, he seems to 'replace' the company commander for 80 points. So total cost 140 for a company command squad featuring the Lord-Castellan.
If I played Cadians, i'd use him for sure, because of the rule of cool and because he seems like he has some cool rules. But it doesn't seem like people are going to need to make "counts as" creed's.
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Post by: ph34r
I will be having my basic metal commander model count as creed, because I have no desire for a sneaky commander, or a conscripty commander, or any other such "flavor" commander. I just want a commander that commands, as well as possible.
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Post by: Shep
Death By Monkeys wrote:Which reminds me - I'd also meant to ask how the Manticore fared for you.
Manticore was great. If the rule is basically 'shoot it 4 times, each shot is d3 blasts' then its a great artillery piece. If you roll a 1, 1, 2, 3 for your 4 rockets, then you've fired 7 blasts. Which is one more than any other artillery piece would fire in a game, and you front-loaded it, which is a major advantage. the loss of AP3 on a bassy is negligible. I assume any power armored model will be in area cover if they see me coming with a rack of bassies, which means the bassy is only 16% more deadly. I don't think the manticore is an "always take" vehicle, but its a nice option at 160 points. I'm not sure if its covered in the main rulebook or in the manticore profile but if the d3 shots ended up falling under the 'multiple barrage' rules in the book, then it can be pretty devastating if you get a couple 'hit' rolls on the scatter die.
Death By Monkeys wrote:Yeah, it's actually really surprised me that no one has talked about continuing to take Inquisitors w/ Mystics to protect the backfield. It'll be expensive, but 3x melta vets in a Vendetta will be a hard unit to beat when it comes to tank-killing power.
I instantly thought inquis/mystics unit next to the leman russ executioner when I started building, but i think that the fleet officer combined with tons and tons of large blasts and transport options up the wazoo is going to hurt drop pod assault and demonic assault big time. As long as you have a physical bubble to block melta from getting into russ squadrons and as long as demons only have vehicles to shoot at, I think mystics tend to be a 'win more' unit, and they inject that awful kill point problem again.
The main reason the vendetta hasn't made any of my lists is that I really want to confirm which set of rumors is right. move 6" fire 3 twin-linked lascannons sounds pretty good, but I want to know what else I'm getting for 130 points. Also, with the 3 fire points non-open topped, chimera, our formerly suicidal anti-tank units have become substantially less suicidal and much more reusable. But not if they are grav-chuting out of a vendetta.
You seem to be asking some pretty insightful questions and making some pretty good observations. Are you a tourney player? What builds are you looking at considering the rumors so far?
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Post by: ph34r
The good thing about an inquisitor and mystics is that it is really easy to hide especially if you have vehicles.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Anyone tried out the Deathstrike yet?
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Post by: Quidlon
Shep:
Death By Monkeys wrote:Yeah, it's actually really surprised me that no one has talked about continuing to take Inquisitors w/ Mystics to protect the backfield. It'll be expensive, but 3x melta vets in a Vendetta will be a hard unit to beat when it comes to tank-killing power.
I instantly thought inquis/mystics unit next to the leman russ executioner when I started building, but i think that the fleet officer combined with tons and tons of large blasts and transport options up the wazoo is going to hurt drop pod assault and demonic assault big time. As long as you have a physical bubble to block melta from getting into russ squadrons and as long as demons only have vehicles to shoot at, I think mystics tend to be a 'win more' unit, and they inject that awful kill point problem again.
I was just looking at their "free shot" rule. With tanks now in squadrons, won't this allow an entire squadron of three to fire each detected incoming deep-strike unit as if standing still? The standing still part seems like a limited benefit, given that I doubt deep strikers would be within an IG tank's sposon traversal arc, but that still seems like it would allow tanks to guard their own rear quarters nicely.
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Shep wrote:I instantly thought inquis/mystics unit next to the leman russ executioner when I started building, but i think that the fleet officer combined with tons and tons of large blasts and transport options up the wazoo is going to hurt drop pod assault and demonic assault big time. As long as you have a physical bubble to block melta from getting into russ squadrons and as long as demons only have vehicles to shoot at, I think mystics tend to be a 'win more' unit, and they inject that awful kill point problem again.
True - there is the KP problem, but I can especially see them getting play at the 2500 point 'Ard Boyz level - throw them in a Land Raider for extra survivability and TL-lascannon goodness.
Shep wrote:The main reason the vendetta hasn't made any of my lists is that I really want to confirm which set of rumors is right. move 6" fire 3 twin-linked lascannons sounds pretty good, but I want to know what else I'm getting for 130 points. Also, with the 3 fire points non-open topped, chimera, our formerly suicidal anti-tank units have become substantially less suicidal and much more reusable. But not if they are grav-chuting out of a vendetta.
Very understandable - hell, I applaud you for trying to playest what list we already have. I can certainly understand not wanting to playtest something that we know so little about. I mean, from my perspective, 3x TL Lascanons for 130 points is a steal! Not to mention transport capacity? That's just silly. I mean, look at Imperial Armor. I'd consider the Thunderbolt to be moderately comparable from a strategic role/armament perspective - although instead of 3x TL Lascannon, you've got 1x TL Lascannon and 2x TL AC. Granted, as a flier, the Thunderbolt has advantages both defensive (hard to hit, additional range for height) and offensive (easy LOS from the air and the ability to make your full move and fire), but at 180 points, the Thunderbolt is only marginally overpriced as a tank/vehicle killer (as opposed to completely overpriced by IA standards). In comparison, the Vendetta has better vehicle-killing power, better armor, and weirdly a transport capacity ( IMHO a gunship like this really shouldn't), but lacks the ability to do SGF and fire, thus requiring it to make it easier to hit if you want to attack with it. The advantages more than outweigh the disadvantages for the price, though. While at one point, I was excited about the possibility of a Valk-heavy army, as the rumors have progressed, I've backed away from those thoughts, but have begun thinking more seriously about a squadron of Vendettas.
Shep wrote:You seem to be asking some pretty insightful questions and making some pretty good observations. Are you a tourney player? What builds are you looking at considering the rumors so far?
Heh. I wish. I'm just a long-time player who has tried to study the lists and tactics of folks like H.B.M.C. and Janthkin who have made it their focus to make solid IG lists, as well as folks like Stelek, who, like him or hate him, has a talented eye for exploiting strong (some might say "broken") units. As far as my own builds go, I've never been one for Ogryns, Stormtroopers, or RRs, so I can't say I've really considered them into my builds yet. Frankly, the closest I've come to a build list so far is:
1x CHQ w/ 3x Melta in a Chimera
2x Vet Squad w/ 3x Melta in Chimeras
3x LRBTs (1 w/ Knight Commander Pask)
3x LRBTs
3x LRBTs
And particularly after your playtest report, I don't think it's much good. As a number of folks have said, the devil is in the details, so I'm having a hard time settling on a list I like without knowing the detailed rules for a lot of these models.
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Post by: ph34r
Has 3x TL LC been confirmed for vendettas? That seems pretty damn strong for only 130 points.
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Post by: sourclams
Agreed. Yes, he's two kill points. But. He's two kill points of Impossible-to-shoot/assault-unless-you-go-diving-through-my-front-line-and-melta-his-transport-somehow.
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Post by: bravelybravesirrobin
ShumaGorath wrote:
They look to be joining Swooping Hawks, Mega Armored Nobz, and Tyranid Warriors in the "We just can't figure out how to make these guys good" shelf.
Clearly you've never looked down the barrels of 8 deathspitters at the same time before. Toxin sac deathspitter warrior squads are death incarnate. They will kill anything they point their guns at with a degree of certainty. They do it on the cheap too.
It's not a lost cause, after all Harlies are worth a lot and are almost as fragile, but they are very, very good at their job (HtH shock unit), and Stormtroopers are not gonig to be amazingly good at their job (shooting things).
Their job is to shoot highly protected or inaccessible things, not "things". Which is a job that no other unit in the new codex looks like it will have. Have an objective across the board with some camo cloak scouts hunkering down in it? Stormies with flamers. Pathfinders? Stormies with flamers. Got a whirlwind messing you up stuck behind two buildings? Stormies with melta. Broadsides giving you fits? Stormies with plasma. The accurate deepstrike and flanking missions on a high output alpha strike unit should not be underestimated. There are plenty of units in the game that don't at first glance appear to be excellent, and many which seem better then they really are. For a unit like this its all in how well you can use them.
highly protected or inaccessible units, lets see how your examples stack up
scouts in camo cloaks = hellhound or banehound (you may quibble survivability but in my experience ork skorchas which are very similar tanks can do this job), vets with flamers and a valkyrie (they can capture the objective afterwards too), griffon (admittedly it has a range issue)
pathfinders = all of the above + the griffon will probably work better since they have to get closer to use their markerlights
whirlwind = earthshakers, the fire anywhere ordnance officer, vets with meltaguns and a valkyrie, vendetta moving fast to get off a good shot, outflanking sentinels with multilasers or better, devil dog.
broadsides = assuming use of cover that will make ordnance bounce off them I would say that this is one job the stormies can potentially do better than other options but 3 plasma vets with a valkyrie is comparable for about the same pts
I agree with you that they're an alpha strike suicide unit which can be used to target a big enemy threat early in the game, kill it before it causes too much trouble and then die as they've probably easily made their pts back/fulfilled their role. However the way they're designed you have to pay for that ap3 even if the target you have in mind won't be too fussed by it. It is a total waste of pts against vehicles or most cover save reliant units. In fact it may not work against some of the units it is seemingly there for as things like broadsides, devastator squads and the like that you bought your stormies to kill will be sitting in cover and rocking cover saves that lets them not care too much about that ap3.
In contrast vets with a valkyrie can do much the same job but cheaper and so more efficiently if not quite so effectively.
Changing the subject the psyker choir looks to be a decidedly nasty option and possibly the best elites choice in the new dex. A lot depends on pts and the exact wording of the rules but as I read it now 9 psykers will give a -9 leaderhip drop to a target unit in range. That is huge and combos horrifically with Imperial Guard shooting. Ratlings, ordnance barrage, mortars and stormies (with mission) all pin. The hellhound forces an ld test still I believe. Selecting an enemy unit that is deadly and pinning it for the whole game could be an excellent way of dealing with some of the uber units in 40k. Imagine leaving nob bikers stuck in the middle of the battlefield for an entire game. It could be a very good tool for defending positions from enemy assault units. The choir drops their ld, the pinning weaposn hold them for a turn and the rets of the guns suddenly have an extra turn to try and wipe them out.
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Post by: JB
On Warseer (p. 82, http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188818&page=82), a fellow called Lamoron claimed to have looked at a codex at his FLGS. He had answers to three of my questions: 1. Cost of voxcasters: 5 points (Warseer p. 85, http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188818&page=85) 2. Details on Master of Ordnance: 30 points, can call in a S9 AP3 Ordnance shot with unlimited range if he doesn't move that turn but this blast scatters 2d6 on a "hit" & 3d6 on a arrow, deduct BS if within LoS 3. Cost of medics (command squads only): 30 points (also on p. 85) Has anyone seen these point values on other rumor sites? I can live with 1 and 2 but may not buy any medics at 30 points each. On the other hand it would frustrate your opponent if he tried to kill your command squad by shooting through your other squads. You could 'go to ground' and get a 3+ cover save followed by a FNP roll.
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Post by: ph34r
The only problem I see with the psychic choir is that making a combo with -ld and pinning takes planning to execute and doesn't offer that great a reward. However it could be great for getting rid of uber units.
EDIT: ouch @ 30 point medics. +30 points to a 50 (130 with creed?) command squad seems like a high price to pay for FNP. I would rather just hide my command squad.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
FNP for 5 piddly humans is worth 30 points?
Jesus...
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
That's another 6 Guardsmen right there!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'd rather add 6 Guardsmen to the command squad.
What's this new guy's name? The one writing this Codex? You can tell it's his first, can't'cha?
*thinks back to my original Codex Cadia in the mid 90's and the sheer awfulness of it*
Yeah, really obviously his first stab at this.
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Post by: Platuan4th
I think it's Robin Crudace(sp?).
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
I don't care what his name is... yet. If the book turns out well (somehow) then I'll continue not caring. If it is stinker I need to think of stupid plays on his name. Like mr. Crudface
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Post by: ShumaGorath
In contrast vets with a valkyrie can do much the same job but cheaper and so more efficiently if not quite so effectively.
Given that the valk is a 100+ point transport carrying a squad its vulnerable in ways that the stormies aren't. It's also two kill points to the stormies one (an issue with the more accurate and harder hitting sterns too).
I agree with you that they're an alpha strike suicide unit which can be used to target a big enemy threat early in the game, kill it before it causes too much trouble and then die as they've probably easily made their pts back/fulfilled their role. However the way they're designed you have to pay for that ap3 even if the target you have in mind won't be too fussed by it. It is a total waste of pts against vehicles or most cover save reliant units. In fact it may not work against some of the units it is seemingly there for as things like broadsides, devastator squads and the like that you bought your stormies to kill will be sitting in cover and rocking cover saves that lets them not care too much about that ap3.
They are an multi use unit, to be sure. However having a range of capability doesn't make them worse. Flexibility is expensive, but they are fairly capable of doing all of the above in a way that a vet squad zooming over and unleashing melta hell (for the same or more points given the cost of their transport) could not. They are also not at risk of having their giant flying 12/12/10 aircraft shot down, though they are in danger of flanking the wrong board edge or scattering into a rock and disappearing forever. They aren't the inaccurate scalpel of current low cost vet squads, but they manage to get their job done for relatively cheap compared to similar units in other armies or the alternatives within the same codex.
They are just different. I'm confidant they will find a niche of use in certain armies (as all specialty units should).
As to the current rumor mill about creed I'm hoping for a high point value. If the codex doesn't get some sort of historical "This is what macharius would be if he were still alive!" entry creed should be it. Every codex has a ~250 point special character, and creed should be this codexes. Humanities Barneus Malgar.
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Post by: bravelybravesirrobin
ShumaGorath wrote:
In contrast vets with a valkyrie can do much the same job but cheaper and so more efficiently if not quite so effectively.
Given that the valk is a 100+ point transport carrying a squad its vulnerable in ways that the stormies aren't. It's also two kill points to the stormies one (an issue with the more accurate and harder hitting sterns too).
I agree with you that they're an alpha strike suicide unit which can be used to target a big enemy threat early in the game, kill it before it causes too much trouble and then die as they've probably easily made their pts back/fulfilled their role. However the way they're designed you have to pay for that ap3 even if the target you have in mind won't be too fussed by it. It is a total waste of pts against vehicles or most cover save reliant units. In fact it may not work against some of the units it is seemingly there for as things like broadsides, devastator squads and the like that you bought your stormies to kill will be sitting in cover and rocking cover saves that lets them not care too much about that ap3.
They are an multi use unit, to be sure. However having a range of capability doesn't make them worse. Flexibility is expensive, but they are fairly capable of doing all of the above in a way that a vet squad zooming over and unleashing melta hell (for the same or more points given the cost of their transport) could not. They are also not at risk of having their giant flying 12/12/10 aircraft shot down, though they are in danger of flanking the wrong board edge or scattering into a rock and disappearing forever. They aren't the inaccurate scalpel of current low cost vet squads, but they manage to get their job done for relatively cheap compared to similar units in other armies or the alternatives within the same codex.
They are just different. I'm confidant they will find a niche of use in certain armies (as all specialty units should).
They aren't a multi-use unit nor are they flexible. They can be tailored to remove one kind of opponent in a suicide strike before they die. They always come as stock and priced to include weapons that make their targets principally MEQ units. Tailoring them to fight other forces is therefore wasting those points spent on the hot shot lasguns. Arguably melta and hot shots gives you some flexibility but they certainly can't be built to take on all the foes you suggested at once.
The questions before using them a player has to ask himself is
1.) What options do I have in my army for dealing with small dangerous MEQ units, hidden vehicles and enemies entrenched in cover?
2.) which of these options are the most efficient for dealing with these threats?
3. which of these options are the most reliable for dealing with these threats?
In my opinion hellhounds are more efficient for entrenched enemies, vets in a valkyrie are more efficient for hidden vehicles and pretty much everything else in the army can deal with small dangerous MEQ units although arguably stormtroopers are quite good at it.
I do think that some people will use stormies but some people use flashgitz; it doesn't make them a good choice.
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Post by: Quintinus
ShumaGorath wrote:
As to the current rumor mill about creed I'm hoping for a high point value. If the codex doesn't get some sort of historical "This is what macharius would be if he were still alive!" entry creed should be it. Every codex has a ~250 point special character, and creed should be this codexes. Humanities Barneus Malgar.
HOLY #&*%$ are you insane? 250 points for a T3 4+ save model? Please tell me you're joking. If you are, you should never do stand up comedy. If you're not, well what little shreds of credibility that you had (if any) just went down the pipe.
Out of all of the ridiculous comments I've heard about this codex, this one takes the cake.
Congratulations. Right now I'm a bit stunned and shaking my head in disbelief. Never has any one been so off the mark, even Mr Cruddarse...oops...Cruddace.
Wow...just...wow...I'll bet you play Space Marines...
Oh, and still no one has answered my question:
What the feth do Targeters do?!
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Vladsimpaler wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:
As to the current rumor mill about creed I'm hoping for a high point value. If the codex doesn't get some sort of historical "This is what macharius would be if he were still alive!" entry creed should be it. Every codex has a ~250 point special character, and creed should be this codexes. Humanities Barneus Malgar.
HOLY #&*%$ are you insane? 250 points for a T3 4+ save model? Please tell me you're joking. If you are, you should never do stand up comedy. If you're not, well what little shreds of credibility that you had (if any) just went down the pipe. Out of all of the ridiculous comments I've heard about this codex, this one takes the cake. Congratulations. Right now I'm a bit stunned and shaking my head in disbelief. Never has any one been so off the mark, even Mr Cruddarse...oops...Cruddace. Wow...just...wow...I'll bet you play Space Marines...
Eldrad is toughness 3 and somehow manages to make it into three quarters of all eldar armies... If he's worth the cost then he's worth the risk. I'm hoping he's both highly expensive and worth the cost. Every army has a legendary supercharacter (marneus, eldrad, abaddon, ghazgull, space pope, the dude in the raider, the guy in the dreadnaut chair, etc). I want him (and maybe his flag guy with him) to be that character. And yeah, I play space marines. I also played tyranids immediately before that. Orks before that. Tyranids before that. Whats your point?
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I do think that some people will use stormies but some people use flashgitz; it doesn't make them a good choice.
Say what you will about the gitz. They are nobz with great gunz an dey is da killiest n' dems always gots a target sumwherz... derz a few o' dem in my static gunline ork list o' doom.
okay in english: Flash gitz, where they may seem inferior to lootas in typical (boring) builds. But in a strong shooting army they can break hard targets by getting a good ap roll and, when it comes time, they are a pack of nobz that waggs quite nicely.
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Post by: BoxANT
Yeah, Inq+2 mystics behind a Squad of LRBT, that would be completely sickening
30 pt medics ... man I hope that is not right. I guess if you sink a lot of points into a CHQ (advisors ect), it might be worth it to protect your investment...
5pt Voxes, oh well, I was *really* hoping that they would be included in the price of Infantry Squads. To put them on your whole army, you are looking at over 100 pts ... hmmm better be worth it.
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Post by: Quintinus
ShumaGorath wrote:
Eldrad is toughness 3 and somehow manages to make it into three quarters of all eldar armies... If he's worth the cost then he's worth the risk. I'm hoping he's both highly expensive and worth the cost.
And your credibility goes down even further. Eldrad is T4. He has a 3+ invulnerable save. He has all of the available psychic powers, and he can use 3 per turn. Some of which that allow reroll of failed saves, wounds, and hits, and he can use one of them twice. He is also pretty good in close combat and could hold his own pretty well imo, but he's not for CC.
If Creed is worth 250 points, he shouldn't be a risk. He should be a beast. If I'm paying that many points, I'd better get something good. Heck, I could get an uber Executioner for that much.
And yeah, I play space marines.
So of course you think Stormtroopers are good. Nevermind. Just...nevermind...that explains so much...
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Post by: ph34r
Vladsimpaler wrote:If Creed is worth 250 points, he shouldn't be a risk. He should be a beast. If I'm paying that many points, I'd better get something good. Heck, I could get an uber Executioner for that much.
Warseer has pretty much confirmed that creed will be 80 points.
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Post by: Ivan
*this section of the post deleted because it's not worth it, would probably get him banned, and generally isnt worth the trouble*
2. Details on Master of Ordnance: 30 points, can call in a S9 AP3 Ordnance shot with unlimited range if he doesn't move that turn but this blast scatters 2d6 on a "hit" & 3d6 on a arrow, deduct BS if within LoS
So what do you guys think: autoinclude or no?
I dont generally have much use for innaccurate blasts... but for 30 points it makes me think hard. Presumably the command squad he's attached to wouldnt be moving around much anyway.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
And your credibility goes down even further. Eldrad is T4. He has a 3+ invulnerable save. He has 3 psychic powers. Some of which that allow reroll of failed saves, wounds, and hits, and he can use one of them twice. He is also pretty good in close combat.
If Creed is worth 250 points, he shouldn't be a risk. He should be a beast. If I'm paying that many points, I'd better get something good. Heck, I could get an uber Executioner for that much.
Oh, is he? Huh, didn't know he had a non standard statline. Funny how he's still an independent character that runs to the front of a combat and gets punched in the face with a power fist if you use him frivolously. Eldrad isn't worth his cost in close combat, lysander is worth his cost. A 200 point hive tyrant is worth its cost. 30 boyz and a nob are worth their cost. Eldrad is a character that alters the play of the game in a non standard fashion, just as creed is.
If Creed is worth 250 points, he shouldn't be a risk. He should be a beast. If I'm paying that many points, I'd better get something good. Heck, I could get an uber Executioner for that much.
Actually, anything thats 250 points should be a risk. Land raiders are a risk, abbadon is a risk, eldrad is a risk. Sorry that you want your 250 point investment to be some sort of immortal juggernaut of destruction but this is a game of chance and tactical and strategic decisions. Nothing should be a sure investment.
So of course you think Stormtroopers are good. Nevermind. Just...nevermind...
I've played space marines since the release of their newest codex. I've played tyranids since third edition. Orks too. Honestly, with as much as you probably think of my defense of the unit your willingness to dismiss my opinions based on the army I play shows you to be little less than a child crying about his new toy being different from the one he wanted. Cry some more. You're not getting 150 point plasmatank and sentinels aren't dropping down to 20 points a piece. Learn to play better and you won't have to whine about not having freebie powerunits. Besides, I don't even understand how all that has to do with what I said. I want him to be a lot of points and worth the cost not just a lot of points. I've said it in all three of these posts. Can you read? ph34r wrote:Vladsimpaler wrote:If Creed is worth 250 points, he shouldn't be a risk. He should be a beast. If I'm paying that many points, I'd better get something good. Heck, I could get an uber Executioner for that much.
Warseer has pretty much confirmed that creed will be 80 points.
An 80 point upgrade? Or just 80 points?
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Post by: Gestalt
ShumaGorath wrote:As to the current rumor mill about creed I'm hoping for a high point value. If the codex doesn't get some sort of historical "This is what macharius would be if he were still alive!" entry creed should be it. Every codex has a ~250 point special character, and creed should be this codexes. Humanities Barneus Malgar.
This is the Imperial Guard. The only character that should even come close to that is Yarrick, who has several editions of bad-assery behind him. What could Creed possibly have to justify a cost like that? An order to turn lasguns into lascannons?
Edit: 80 point upgrade.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Probably an upgrade. In any case, we don't need Creed to be our big bruiser character Shummy. He's not anyway - he's a leader, not a fighter. And the reason we don't need Creed for this is because we've already got Yarrick! T4 human w/ FNP, Eternal Warrior and a Grimaldus/Living Saint-esque recovery from death. Yarrick is back, and is far improved from Yarrick-Lite in the current Codex. And I couldn't be happier about that.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Gestalt wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:As to the current rumor mill about creed I'm hoping for a high point value. If the codex doesn't get some sort of historical "This is what macharius would be if he were still alive!" entry creed should be it. Every codex has a ~250 point special character, and creed should be this codexes. Humanities Barneus Malgar.
This is the Imperial Guard. The only character that should even come close to that is Yarrick, who has several editions of bad-assery behind him. What could Creed possibly have to justify a cost like that? An order to turn lasguns into lascannons?
Maybe? A 24" ld 9/10 bubble, 4 orders a turn, special orders for fearless and furious charge, and maybe a few orbital bombardments (he does have a lot of ships at his command) could put him in the 200 point range. Maybe give him a smaller fearless or stubborn bubble too. Guy shouts a lot.
Probably an upgrade.
In any case, we don't need Creed to be our big bruiser character Shummy. He's not anyway - he's a leader, not a fighter. And the reason we don't need Creed for this is because we've already got Yarrick!
T4 human w/FNP, Eternal Warrior and a Grimaldus/Living Saint-esque recovery from death. Yarrick is back, and is far improved from Yarrick-Lite in the current Codex.
And I couldn't be happier about that.
I don't want creed to be a fighter, I (would have) wanted him to be a ~200 point leader of epic proportions. Someone who warrants that cost with what he does to your armies capability on the battlefield with his simple presence. And yeah, yarrick is quite a beast. He would have to be to lift that giant ridiculous crab hand.
Edit: 80 point upgrade.
How much is the base unit?
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Post by: DebonaireToast
Valks went up to $58?!
Bah!
Oh GW...hiking prices on advance orders over the weekend..sneaky fethers...
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Post by: Quintinus
ShumaGorath wrote:
Oh, is he? Huh, didn't know he had a non standard statline. Funny how he's still an independent character that runs to the front of a combat and gets punched in the face with a power fist if you use him frivolously. Eldrad isn't worth his cost in close combat, lysander is worth his cost. A 200 point hive tyrant is worth its cost. 30 boyz and a nob are worth their cost. Eldrad is a character that alters the play of the game in a non standard fashion, just as creed is.
And you just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper...I said that he could hold his own if faced with a combat situation. No crap 30 boys are worth their cost. A 7 year old would get that. Granted Eldrad will lose against 30 boys, but then again, what doesn't? You obviously have no idea of how good Eldrad is. He allows you to reposition units via Divination. And trust me, though he may be used a lot, he's not often used for close combat unless absolutely necessary. I get the feeling that you've never played with or against Eldrad. Oh wait, you haven't. So you wouldn't know.
Actually, anything thats 250 points should be a risk. Land raiders are a risk, abbadon is a risk, eldrad is a risk. Sorry that you want your 250 point investment to be some sort of immortal juggernaut of destruction but this is a game of chance and tactical and strategic decisions. Nothing should be a sure investment.
Abaddon isn't a risk, he is a freaking monster. He annihilates, like, well...everything. He's a CC monster. He's worth his points. A Land Raider is tough to kill. You're killing your credibility more every time you speak. Creed is not even near the point cost of Abaddon. If I invest 250 points in something, I want it to at least do its job. I don't want it to just flail about. I agree that nothing should be a sure investment, but I at least want it to do its job at least a little, even if it gets killed. You're trying to make me look like a power player.
I've played space marines since the release of their newest codex. I've played tyranids since third edition. Orks too. Honestly, with as much as you probably think of my defense of the unit you're willingness to dismiss my opinions based on the army I play show you to be little less than a child crying about his new toy being different from the one he wanted.
No, I'm only saying it because I got the feeling the you've never, EVER played with the Guard. Yes it maybe a bit stupid to call you a Marine player, but still. If you've had no experience with them, please don't try to provide insight to things that you are not that well aware of.
Cry some more. You're not getting 150 point plasmatank and sentinels aren't dropping down to 20 points a piece. Learn to play better and you won't have to whine about not having freebie powerunits.
L2P NUB!!111 Is really childish. I never said I wanted an 150 point plasma tank. Nice strawman argument anyway. An 'A' for effort.
You try your very hardest to make me look like a power player, and that really pisses me off.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
DebonaireToast wrote:Valks went up to $58?!
Bah!
Oh GW...hiking prices on advance orders over the weekend..sneaky fethers...
I see you're not using firefox!
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Post by: Grimaldi
Death By Monkeys wrote:
Frankly, the closest I've come to a build list so far is:
1x CHQ w/ 3x Melta in a Chimera
2x Vet Squad w/ 3x Melta in Chimeras
3x LRBTs (1 w/ Knight Commander Pask)
3x LRBTs
3x LRBTs
Looks like about an 1850 point list? I'm thinking of something roughly like:
Company HQ with meltaguns, advisor that gives +1 to reserve rolls
6 vet squads with meltaguns
mix of 9 valks(lascannon, multiple rocket launchers) and vendettas
I'd like 9 vendettas, but might cause issues against infantry heavy lists. The valks with multiple rocket launchers, though, should do fairly well against them. Maybe 2 vendettas and 1 valk per squadron to ensure some redundancy. Don't have my rulebook handy, but if the "scout" rule allows outflanking for personnel onboard, too, it could be nasty, which is why I would include the advisor.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
And you just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper...I said that he could hold his own. No crap 30 boys are worth their cost. A 7 year old would get that. You obviously have no idea of how good Eldrad is. He allows you to reposition units via Divination. And trust me, though he may be used a lot, he's not often used for close combat unless absolutely necessary. I get the feeling that you've never played with or against Eldrad. Oh wait, you haven't. So you wouldn't know.
Abaddon isn't a risk, he is a freaking monster. He annihilates, like, well...everything. He's a CC monster. He's worth his points. A Land Raider is tough to kill. You're killing your credibility more every time you speak. Creed is not even near the point cost of Abaddon. If I invest 250 points in something, I want it to at least do its job. I don't want it to just flail about. I agree that nothing should be a sure investment, but I at least want it to do its job at least a little, even if it gets killed. You're trying to make me look like a power player.
And people say I troll.... Abbadon is a beast that is quite difficult to make worthwhile. It's harder to kill 250 points worth of units with him then it seems. He's not mobile, a rhino will just get shot, and a land raider is a 250 point delivery system for a 250 point brick. There goes a fourth of your army in two models that can easily be tarpitted. And yes, I've played eldrad. How does my saying that he's meh in close combat but fantastic for what he does to the course of the game infer that I don't know about his special abilities? Do you just read every other word I write or something? And no, I'm not trying to make you look like a power player I'm telling you you're making no sense.
No, I'm only saying it because I got the feeling the you've never, EVER played with the Guard. Yes it maybe a bit stupid to call you a Marine player, but still. If you've had no experience with them, please don't try to provide insight to things that you are not that well aware of.
Uhuh. Yup. Sure. Yeah. For reference guard are the single most common army type I play. Not that you'll likely believe that. You're sort of in your own world at this point.
L2P NUB!!111 Is really childish. I never said I wanted an 150 point plasma tank. Nice strawman argument anyway. An 'A' for effort.
Yeah, I didn't really need the strawman in there. I mean sometimes maybe, but not to argue with what your saying.
You tried to make me look like a power player, and that really pisses me off.
No, I'm saying your posting drunk. Which is dangerous because you lose sight of your point and just start shouting at people. What does any of this have to do with my wanting creed to be a 200+ point leader of legendary ability? How does my wanting him to be a supercharacter that is worth his points warrant all this nerdrage? HBMC understood what I was saying, and the two of us usually communicate like there some sort of creepy funhouse window between the two of us.
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Post by: Mickhedd
Hmmm, my current build is looking to have 3 Vets w/ Meltas in Vendettas and one whole platoon squad in Chimeras. That should secure some objectives :p
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Post by: bravelybravesirrobin
I'm going to defend ShumaGorath here Vlad so listen carefully.
He ISN'T saying that Creed is as good as Eldrad
He ISN'T saying that Creed SHOULD cost 250pts now because he is as good as Eldrad or Abaddon
He ISN'T saying that under the current rules Creed should be about 200pts
what he IS saying is
Guard DESERVE an epically heroic character who costs 200pts+
Guard DESERVE a character that is as good as Eldrad i.e. he isn't a close combat monster but like Eldrad he has the capacity to vastly improve the army
Guard DESERVE a character on roughly the same game changing power level as Eldrad for about the same cost as Eldrad.
He THINKS Creed would be a good candidate to BECOME that character. Not that he is now, but that Shuma would like him to become so.
Which IMHO is perfectly reasonable but not really that fluffy. Guard are ordinary guys, they don't get to have epic heroes on the scale of Eldrad, even commander types. I think the current level of Creed is quite reasonable. He's an improvement but not mandatory like Eldrad is.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Which IMHO is perfectly reasonable but not really that fluffy. Guard are ordinary guys, they don't get to have epic heroes on the scale of Eldrad, even commander types. I think the current level of Creed is quite reasonable. He's an improvement but not mandatory like Eldrad is.
He is the single most important imperial commander in the galaxy. The cadian gate is basically a constant war and has been for thousands of years. The leader of that place has to be something special, though I can understand not wanting a simple human to be up there with characters like calgar or abbadon. Also thanks for helping clarify!
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Post by: SWPIGWANG
If we have a 250pt guard leader, it would probably have to do things like give everyone infilitrate or some other dramatic army-wide change to make it worth it. It would then be a "mandatory special character" for a entire army type and HBMC would be out for blood, since Guard armies shouldn't be built around a single bloody person.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
A special character is only mandatory if its too good for its cost. Thats poor design, it has nothing to do with the concept itself. The reason you see eldrad everywhere is because he's too good for his points(in my opinion), regular farseers are pointless by comparison.
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Post by: BoxANT
Personally, I like where they are going with C&K.
Not too expensive, but have some (what appears to be) nice *commander* abilities.
I am looking forward to seeing what our other SC exactly do.
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Post by: Sha1emade
He could simply allow the player to choose the mission. Get first turn and place one more objective than the opponent. Also something like taking Ogryn, ST or something similar as troops. Stats could remain the same. That would be worth 250pts for many people with out improving his stats. If it is balanced or fair is another story altogether.
I am not sure a legendary human commander can be represented well in 40k. The strength of these men would be from charisma, tactics, influence and probably massed troops at their beck and call. Cant really give the guard player and extra 500pts or make them play better. Easier to add a marine special character that feels legendary than a human with great tactics and make it feel right. I would love if it were true but sadly I do not see this happening. I love my guard but our characters will probably always be non epic feeling as it is easier to make them "neat" with out being all that special. This will probably always keep us around the 60 to 125pt category and curse Eldrad and Calagar when the punks are not looking.
Just my 2 cents...
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Everyone check outside for the 4 horsemen, because Shummy's actually right here. *hushed gasps from the penut gallery - Malfred faints* Guard deserve some sort of 'big' character. Now as brave Sir Robin clarified, this doesn't mean the Guard 'big' character is an equal to Failbaddon, or Pimp Master Calgar or even Farseer Ubiquitous. It just means someone who has the same sort of effect on a Guard army, but on a comparable (not equal) level. And I can even see what he's saying about Creed being that guy. Where Shummy and I differ (or, where one of the areas where Shummy and I differ) is that I think that 'big' character should be Yarrick, 'cause he's way cooler than Creed. But that's my personal bias showing through there - I've always liked Yarrick, and have fond memories of him from 2nd Ed. Creed, to me, has always been the guy who got to the quartermaster's office after everyone else and had to settle for the Size Ogryn jacket.
1406
Post by: Janthkin
I want Solar Macharius back. :(
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
(JohnHwangDD)
There's always Apocalypse and 'Counts As'!!!!
(/JohnHwangDD)
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
If the medic is truly +30 points, I don't see anyone taking them. FNP on five IG bodies is simply not very good. The Master of Ordnance, too, feels dubious. You pretty much have to put him in LOS of his intended target to have even a statistical chance of hitting, and that puts his entire squad at risk of being plinked off (considering the value of Orders, I don't see anyone NOT trying to kill your command squads if they get the chance).
11
Post by: ph34r
30 points for a basilisk shot that scatters a lot seems okay to me. After all, thats less than 1/4 the cost of a basilisk, and can still deliver the same punch, just not exactly where you want it.
4926
Post by: Neil
Here's a timeline showing my enthusiasm regarding Impetial Guard.
1995: 20%. I play lots and lots of Necromunda and have hundreds of figures that could go in an IG army, but I'm not interested in 2E 40k anymore as it's not very playable and Necro is so good.
1999: 0%. I retool my large Eldar army for 3rd ed.
2000: 50%. I spy an entry at the back of Codex Armageddon and my head cogs start turning. A Necromundan PDF militia! Yes!
2001: 100%. Army is finished to the point of being playable. Lots of conversions, lots of necromunda figures bought, about half painted. Greenstuff conversions on Catachans to turn them into Orlocks. I remember the trial assault rules being rather good for them somehow but don't remember why. Stand and shoot or something like that.
2002: 0%. I stop playing Warhammers completely. I aquire thousands of magic: the gathering cards.
2004: 80%. I give all my 40k stuff to a friend to sell on ebay for me. He sells off my Ork army and my Empire army. He tells me we should have one more game "for old time's sake". I pull out the guard... the rest is history. (I then painted up a new space marine army)
2005: 100% I find out there's a new Guard codex and try and try to make my old army work. Lots of converting models to have Lasguns.
2006: 20% After a few games of explaining "These Heavy Stubbers are Autocannons, this heavy Plasma Gun is a regular Plasma Gun, all these guys with autoguns have lasguns, oh that gun is a wierd looking heavy stubber, so autocannon..this is a really old heavy bolter, from Space Crusade, no really, that's what they looked like.." etc etc I give up.
2007: 0% I sell off half the army (everything that wasn't painted).
2008: 30% I pull out all the Guard models for a big Apocalypse game. I try to work out the list again this time with like Witchhunters or something and give up again.
January 2009: 80% I hear there's a new codex and start getting excited. I decide to abandon the old PDF Militia and start a new army. Cadian models, in Dark Angels colours, to match. This time I'll paint them well. They will be my new Tournament army for 2010 (2008 was Dark Angels, 2009 is Daemons)
February 2009: 110% I am absolutely desperate for new information. I've somehow aquired a couple of new heavy weapon teams, how did that happen. I want to base them up (planning to use seperate 25mm's as usual) but want to wait just in case something silly has been done like making double basing compulsory. I reload Dakka and WargamerAU every 10 minutes looking for rumours. I even go to Warseer. I plan the fluff, I plan the paint scheme. I plan the 6000 point Apocalypse combined force with my Dark Angels.
Three Weeks Ago: 80% French list is posted. Hmm, weapon teams have to be doubled up, annoying, good thing I held off. The Punisher is badly designed. AP3 Hellguns, huh? They can be my litmus, if Stormtroopers are 8 points with those stats, the codex will probably be balanced.
Two Weeks Ago: 10% Point cost of Stormtroopers revealed. My interest drops like a stone. Just like that. The more details revealed, the more I dislike. This codex was going to be Guard's savoir, their new codex to bring them up to competitiveness. But 16 point Stormtroopers! How can this be?
One Week Ago: 0% Hey, War of the Ring looks pretty cool, I have an Elf army kicking around. I'll paint that instead.
Right Now: 20% I think I might be able to kludge together something fun with lots and lots of tanks. I'll wait until after the 3 month impulse buy/sell window and grab them cheap second hand. Maybe. After I've finished painting the Elves. And possibly a Moria army. Today in GW I can't help but notice the empty shelf space where once Cadians sat, removed to be "repackaged", and sigh wistfully.
2035
Post by: Khornatedemon
Agamemnon2 wrote:If the medic is truly +30 points, I don't see anyone taking them. FNP on five IG bodies is simply not very good. The Master of Ordnance, too, feels dubious. You pretty much have to put him in LOS of his intended target to have even a statistical chance of hitting, and that puts his entire squad at risk of being plinked off (considering the value of Orders, I don't see anyone NOT trying to kill your command squads if they get the chance).
i'm going to wager we will be seeing lots of CHQ's sitting in the back of chimera's barking orders at people and providing LoS for the MoO (hehe moooooo) in a handy armor 12 cover saved can.
270
Post by: winterman
If the medic is truly +30 points, I don't see anyone taking them. FNP on five IG bodies is simply not very good.
If you are going el'cheapo with a base command squad, then ya no way. But lets say you've got the standard and have also added extra bodies like advisors and rumored bodyguards. Then ya 30 points doesn't seem so bad to keep that investment around for as long as possible.
But I guess for a few points more you can get a chimera 'force field' instead.
237
Post by: Moloch
Vladsimpaler wrote:Never has any one been so off the mark, even Mr Cruddarse...oops...Cruddace.
 Could we please just stop the childish name calling ? Disagreeing over something is one thing, personal insults are a completely different matter.
10064
Post by: Kungfuhustler
H.B.M.C. wrote:Probably an upgrade.
In any case, we don't need Creed to be our big bruiser character Shummy. He's not anyway - he's a leader, not a fighter. And the reason we don't need Creed for this is because we've already got Yarrick!
T4 human w/ FNP, Eternal Warrior and a Grimaldus/Living Saint-esque recovery from death. Yarrick is back, and is far improved from Yarrick-Lite in the current Codex.
And I couldn't be happier about that.
Okay, Yarrik hasn't been listed anywhere, but he exists (according to h.b.m.c. anyways) could gaunt be in there too?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yarrick hasn't been listed? Did you read the French summary? Yarrick's the only guy there ('sides Ogryn-related units) that's T4! How could you miss him!!!
10064
Post by: Kungfuhustler
dammit. okay, me not so sharp this evening. This happens when I haven't had a good drink in a couple weeks.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
First of all, Shuma:
The space pope, a "legendary super character"? You're putting the space pope on the same level of usefulness as fething Eldrad?
Second: I'm pretty sure I'm not the first to bring this up, but the god-damned valkyrie just got a price increase and it hasn't even been released yet?! It's fething $58. Seriously, what in the hell? WHY?! It doesn't even make a damn bit of sense, $58? What, were they afraid to make it an even $60, did they think they'd get away with it easier if they stayed a couple bucks shy?
Makes no god-damned sense whatsoever. The IG kit I was most looking forward to, the one thing that I thought GW could not possibly cock up after seeing the sprues and everything, and they fething COCKED IT UP. It never fails, I swear to god. And you know they had to have done it on purpose, they hyped the bs out of that model and got everyone excited and then they pull a battleboard. Let me guess, it was supposed to be $58 this whole time, the $50 they had on the website for over a week was a "mistake", I gotcha. And then when it goes up to $62 they'll say that was also a "mistake".
I really want a reason to like GW, but it seems like they're actively trying to piss me off. I'm not buying a single one now, I'm not going to be taken for a fool like that. You vote with your wallet people!
8742
Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Buy it from internet bulk/reduction sellers or have patience and buy it from ebay, save money by waiting for the rabid fanboiz to compulsively purchase and then tire of the model. GW does not owe any favours to the customer here, they serve the shareholder and they will continue to make layoffs, close battlebunkers, reduce hobby content, use mass drivers in contravention of intergalatic law and finally, and most heinously, continue to raise prices.
Why did they raise the price of this model? Overheads? No, the reason is simple, feedback indicated a great deal of interest and excitement on this one model, they raised price because they weighed the options and realised they could and still get massive sales on it.
9777
Post by: A-P
winterman wrote:If the medic is truly +30 points, I don't see anyone taking them. FNP on five IG bodies is simply not very good.
If you are going el'cheapo with a base command squad, then ya no way. But lets say you've got the standard and have also added extra bodies like advisors and rumored bodyguards. Then ya 30 points doesn't seem so bad to keep that investment around for as long as possible.
But I guess for a few points more you can get a chimera 'force field' instead.
I came to the same conclusion. Since the role of the HQ is now to stand put and give orders ( forget the counter-attack heresy ), protecting them form enemy attention becomes vital. Depending on the final points costs and how far you want to go, you can make a decent "command bunker" for your HQ. Chimera w Camonet, some Bodyguards, necessary Advisors and a Medic on top. Expensive? Heck yeah but might keep your precious Colonel alive and functional.
11
Post by: ph34r
The main thing I am wondering about at the moment concerning command squads is the cost of a master vox. If it ends up being too expensive I might just drop all voxes and take more infantry or command squads.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Buy it from internet bulk/reduction sellers or have patience and buy it from ebay, save money by waiting for the rabid fanboiz to compulsively purchase and then tire of the model. GW does not owe any favours to the customer here, they serve the shareholder and they will continue to make layoffs, close battlebunkers, reduce hobby content, use mass drivers in contravention of intergalatic law and finally, and most heinously, continue to raise prices.
Why did they raise the price of this model? Overheads? No, the reason is simple, feedback indicated a great deal of interest and excitement on this one model, they raised price because they weighed the options and realised they could and still get massive sales on it.
I don't care if it is cheaper elsewhere, I'm so disgusted I don't feel like owning one at all anymore.
6849
Post by: Quistis84
ph34r wrote:The main thing I am wondering about at the moment concerning command squads is the cost of a master vox. If it ends up being too expensive I might just drop all voxes and take more infantry or command squads.
There's no such thing as a master-vox anymore. basically, if the officer's squad has a vox, and he's issuing orders to a squad that also has a vox, they get to re-roll their leadership test to see if they can act out the order.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Sidstyler wrote:Second: I'm pretty sure I'm not the first to bring this up, but the god-damned valkyrie just got a price increase and it hasn't even been released yet?! It's fething $58. Seriously, what in the hell? WHY?! It doesn't even make a damn bit of sense, $58? What, were they afraid to make it an even $60, did they think they'd get away with it easier if they stayed a couple bucks shy?
Makes no god-damned sense whatsoever. The IG kit I was most looking forward to, the one thing that I thought GW could not possibly cock up after seeing the sprues and everything, and they fething COCKED IT UP. It never fails, I swear to god. And you know they had to have done it on purpose, they hyped the bs out of that model and got everyone excited and then they pull a battleboard. Let me guess, it was supposed to be $58 this whole time, the $50 they had on the website for over a week was a "mistake", I gotcha. And then when it goes up to $62 they'll say that was also a "mistake".
Let me end your suffering.
Free shipping worldwilde. Discounts 365 days a year. A probable sale during Easter.
The US/ UK exchange rate is in your favour, and I assume you were planning on getting more than 1? A $10 saving over 4-5 Valks is enough to buy another one...
So worry not.
221
Post by: Frazzled
Gentlemen there have been several reports about a particular poster. I have reviewed those posts. While annoying they are not trolling.
If you find a partiocular poster is annoying, utilize the IGNORE function key at the bottom right of each post. It will help. A lot. I know.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
'Least I know it's not me this time...
1084
Post by: Agamemnon2
Hm, might've been me this time around. My mood's been all over the place lately.
A-P wrote:winterman wrote:If the medic is truly +30 points, I don't see anyone taking them. FNP on five IG bodies is simply not very good.
If you are going el'cheapo with a base command squad, then ya no way. But lets say you've got the standard and have also added extra bodies like advisors and rumored bodyguards. Then ya 30 points doesn't seem so bad to keep that investment around for as long as possible.
But I guess for a few points more you can get a chimera 'force field' instead.
I came to the same conclusion. Since the role of the HQ is now to stand put and give orders ( forget the counter-attack heresy ), protecting them form enemy attention becomes vital. Depending on the final points costs and how far you want to go, you can make a decent "command bunker" for your HQ. Chimera w Camonet, some Bodyguards, necessary Advisors and a Medic on top. Expensive? Heck yeah but might keep your precious Colonel alive and functional.
It's actually sad if the tech-priest can't get the Bolster Defenses rule, because it'd play well into this sort of thinking. He'd be the infantry equivalent of a Camo net.
9777
Post by: A-P
Agamemnon2 wrote:Hm, might've been me this time around. My mood's been all over the place lately.
A-P wrote:
I came to the same conclusion. Since the role of the HQ is now to stand put and give orders ( forget the counter-attack heresy ), protecting them form enemy attention becomes vital. Depending on the final points costs and how far you want to go, you can make a decent "command bunker" for your HQ. Chimera w Camonet, some Bodyguards, necessary Advisors and a Medic on top. Expensive? Heck yeah but might keep your precious Colonel alive and functional.
It's actually sad if the tech-priest can't get the Bolster Defenses rule, because it'd play well into this sort of thinking. He'd be the infantry equivalent of a Camo net.
Yes, some form of "Bolster Defences" would be nice. Digging trenches and foxholes should be something that is SOP for the Guard. Unfortunately nothing in the rumours indicate the Tech-Priest is getting one.
4351
Post by: ubermosher
Regarding Master of Ordnance: I see him as something of a psychological weapon rather than a steady tactical weapon. It'll keep opponents firing lines/backfield HQ's guessing and worrying more about my CHQ than perhaps my LRBT squadron advancing. Not bad for 30 points, but not really effective for opponents other than hordes. He'll be good at first as a distraction before players begin to realize his true lack of effectiveness. Then again, with the meta-game swinging towards hordes, he might get better as time goes on.
Moloch wrote:
Could we please just stop the childish name calling ? Disagreeing over something is one thing, personal insults are a completely different matter.
QFT
9598
Post by: Quintinus
ShumaGorath wrote:
No, I'm saying your posting drunk. Which is dangerous because you lose sight of your point and just start shouting at people.
Well, now I know what it is like to argue with a brick wall. It's kind of sad when you have to start insulting people. 
What does any of this have to do with my wanting creed to be a 200+ point leader of legendary ability? How does my wanting him to be a supercharacter that is worth his points warrant all this nerdrage? HBMC understood what I was saying, and the two of us usually communicate like there some sort of creepy funhouse window between the two of us.
To be totally honest, it came across as you thinking that Creed needed to be really expensive as he gave out 4 orders a turn and the like. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
11181
Post by: OddJob.
Vladsimpaler wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:
No, I'm saying your posting drunk. Which is dangerous because you lose sight of your point and just start shouting at people.
Well, now I know what it is like to argue with a brick wall. It's kind of sad when you have to start insulting people.
What does any of this have to do with my wanting creed to be a 200+ point leader of legendary ability? How does my wanting him to be a supercharacter that is worth his points warrant all this nerdrage? HBMC understood what I was saying, and the two of us usually communicate like there some sort of creepy funhouse window between the two of us.
To be totally honest, it came across as you thinking that Creed needed to be really expensive as he gave out 4 orders a turn and the like. I apologize for the misunderstanding.
It came across like that because you didn't really read his post. Your dakka honourific of "Horrific Howling Banshee" seems to be fairly apt when it comes to these IG rumours/facts. Very little of substance contained in your posts, and little respect for other viewpoints. You need to relax. I am well aware of the irony of telling someone else to post decent content while contributing none myself, so i'll bow out with that. p.s. You wearn't arguing, with a brick wall or otherwise. You were raging. Perfectly fine in moderation of course, but it's generally better to aim it at an abstract or an idea rather than a person.
11623
Post by: DebonaireToast
ShumaGorath wrote:
I see you're not using firefox!
Actually I am using firefox, although I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.
The price hike, while irritating, isn't exactly surprising. (Especially considering the Realm of Battle fiasco not too long ago.) There have been rumblings from the rumor mills for some time about the actual price being in the $55-60 range.
Perhaps another factory error raised the cost of production? That would be awfully convenient.
It's still substantially less than the Forgeworld one though so I suppose I can't complain too much.
11118
Post by: Thimn
I'm seeing the power IG builds to include
2x Executioner with Inquisitor with 2x Mystics
2x Vendettas
2x Leman Russ Main Battle Tank
Company Commander in Chimera with Master of Artillery that sits behind the Executioners
Those units would cover everything you need from Hordes/MEQ/Anti-Tank. Fill in the rest of your army to fit what ever fluffy units you wish to take.
9003
Post by: AlfredTheStrange
anyone thought of vendeta spam?
would probly be murder vs vehicles, but no so much for hord.
thoughts?
11729
Post by: Gestalt
How much is spam? A squad of 3 would all have to fire at the same target remember. I can't see squadrons of more than 2, and only 1-2 of those in the army.
4869
Post by: ShumaGorath
Frazzled wrote:Gentlemen there have been several reports about a particular poster. I have reviewed those posts. While annoying they are not trolling.
If you find a partiocular poster is annoying, utilize the IGNORE function key at the bottom right of each post. It will help. A lot. I know.
But then I'll be all alone again  .
anyone thought of vendeta spam?
would probly be murder vs vehicles, but no so much for hord.
thoughts?
Three vendetta (vendettas?) could tank shock an entire army every turn once they were finished killing it's tanks.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
Grimaldi wrote:Death By Monkeys wrote:
Frankly, the closest I've come to a build list so far is:
1x CHQ w/ 3x Melta in a Chimera
2x Vet Squad w/ 3x Melta in Chimeras
3x LRBTs (1 w/ Knight Commander Pask)
3x LRBTs
3x LRBTs
Looks like about an 1850 point list? I'm thinking of something roughly like:
Company HQ with meltaguns, advisor that gives +1 to reserve rolls
6 vet squads with meltaguns
mix of 9 valks(lascannon, multiple rocket launchers) and vendettas
I'd like 9 vendettas, but might cause issues against infantry heavy lists. The valks with multiple rocket launchers, though, should do fairly well against them. Maybe 2 vendettas and 1 valk per squadron to ensure some redundancy. Don't have my rulebook handy, but if the "scout" rule allows outflanking for personnel onboard, too, it could be nasty, which is why I would include the advisor.
Yep, that was ~1850. Only problem here is that the latest rumors say that you can't mix and match your Valks and Vendettas - one or the other only in a squadron. That's definitely a flying circus list. Once you take out the heavy weapons that'll give you problems, just run circles around them using SMF to keep from getting killed.
4351
Post by: ubermosher
Not to mention the traffic jam 9 Valk models on a table will give you.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
A-P wrote:winterman wrote:If the medic is truly +30 points, I don't see anyone taking them. FNP on five IG bodies is simply not very good.
If you are going el'cheapo with a base command squad, then ya no way. But lets say you've got the standard and have also added extra bodies like advisors and rumored bodyguards. Then ya 30 points doesn't seem so bad to keep that investment around for as long as possible.
But I guess for a few points more you can get a chimera 'force field' instead.
I came to the same conclusion. Since the role of the HQ is now to stand put and give orders ( forget the counter-attack heresy ), protecting them form enemy attention becomes vital. Depending on the final points costs and how far you want to go, you can make a decent "command bunker" for your HQ. Chimera w Camonet, some Bodyguards, necessary Advisors and a Medic on top. Expensive? Heck yeah but might keep your precious Colonel alive and functional.
Here's the problem I see. You start loading up the CHQ with lots of advisors and bodyguards, etc. and you start getting bloat. Too many points spent on a single unit (which, frankly, IG can't really afford - you really need to be spending those points on heavy/special weapon delivery systems, i.e. infantry, and pie plates.) And Orders may be good, but spending all those points just to keep him alive, I think, will be overkill.
...ooooh....Chimera with Camo-Net. That's what I can do with those crappy beat up Chimera I got in a trade recently...No need to do all that work fixing up the back end. Just do a Grey Death-style camo tarp over the back and call it good!
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
ShumaGorath wrote:Three vendetta (vendettas?) could tank shock an entire army every turn once they were finished killing it's tanks.
Err. Did GW ever rule if non-tanks can tank shock?
2035
Post by: Khornatedemon
Thimn wrote:I'm seeing the power IG builds to include
2x Executioner with Inquisitor with 2x Mystics
2x Vendettas
2x Leman Russ Main Battle Tank
Company Commander in Chimera with Master of Artillery that sits behind the Executioners
Those units would cover everything you need from Hordes/MEQ/Anti-Tank. Fill in the rest of your army to fit what ever fluffy units you wish to take.
you can get standard russ's with plasma sponsons for the cost of a basic executioner which trades 1 plasma shot for the battlecannon. I have a feeling that will be the better buy.
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
ubermosher wrote:Not to mention the traffic jam 9 Valk models on a table will give you.
Tru dat, yo. Although I imagine if they're roughly the size of a Land Raider, then it's not much worse playing Mech IG and floating 12-14 Chimera out on the board...although all those tippy flying stands could be dangerous. Hope they're stable!
6005
Post by: Death By Monkeys
Oh, and I've been meaning to say this for about five pages now, but all this discussion about Creed being the new mandatory special character for the Guard? It has merit, definitely. But I just want to point out that before the Space Marine codex came out and the rules for Marneus Calgar were leaked, everyone was all up in arms over how good he was and how he'd be mandatory in every Space Marine list....mind you, I recognize that with the publishing of the SM codex that there is a mandatory special character in SM armies...it just doesn't happen to be Calgar. So maybe Creed will be mandatory, but I'm not putting money on it being him over someone else.
10123
Post by: BoxANT
If you sink 90 points for advisors in you CHQ, buy a standard, upgrade your officer a little (we do not know what kind of cool upgrades he might get), investing in FNP is not that bad of an idea. Even if you stick them in a chimera, if that blows up, you could loose everything.
11729
Post by: Gestalt
I don't see Creed as mandatory, just a valid option. You can take Creed, you can take 2 CHQs, you can take a Vox network, all work depending on how you build your army.
I wonder what units Kell can join, if he can join a Heavy Weapon Squad they move from LD7 to the officers LD for orders, which is the only strong point of HWS left imo.
The only use for a medic I can see is for advisors that require LOS, which as just MoO I think. The others might as well be out of LOS anyway.
6849
Post by: Quistis84
the commander doesn't actually get any cool upgrades. he has a laspistol, cc weapon, frag grenades and a refractor field. He can only upgrade to have bolt pistol/boltgun/plasma pistol and power weapon/fist and melta bombs. Oh and the whole squad (including advisors) can have carapace armour and camo cloaks
Kell replaces a veteran in the company command squad, and he's not an independant character, so he's not gonna be joining any other squads!
4351
Post by: ubermosher
Quistis84 wrote:the commander doesn't actually get any cool upgrades. he has a laspistol, cc weapon, frag grenades and a refractor field. He can only upgrade to have bolt pistol/boltgun/plasma pistol and power weapon/fist and melta bombs. Oh and the whole squad (including advisors) can have carapace armour and camo cloaks
Kell replaces a veteran in the company command squad, and he's not an independant character, so he's not gonna be joining any other squads!
The company commander has a 5+ invulnerable save?
6849
Post by: Quistis84
yep! 5+ invulnerable save from the refractor field
11729
Post by: Gestalt
Quistis84 wrote:Kell replaces a veteran in the company command squad, and he's not an independant character, so he's not gonna be joining any other squads!
People said that you dont have to have Creed and Kell in the same squad.
11118
Post by: Thimn
Khornatedemon wrote:
you can get standard russ's with plasma sponsons for the cost of a basic executioner which trades 1 plasma shot for the battlecannon. I have a feeling that will be the better buy.
Well I'd be getting the Executioner for the Heavy 3 for the turret. So that would be a loss of 6 shots total. After everything I have listed there you should still have ~750pts to pick up infantry and other goodies.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
They could be in two seperate cmmd squads I guess?
6849
Post by: Quistis84
Gestalt - you don't have to. Kell just replaces a veteran, it doesn't have to be in Creed's command squad
11729
Post by: Gestalt
I heard that Kell's ability was the unit he was with to take orders using the officers LD, thats useless if he is in a command squad. What is his ability then?
6849
Post by: Quistis84
Gestalt - close, if the officer in Kell's unit is giving an order, the squad he's issuing the order to takes the LD test on the officer's LD not their own. (hope that makes sense!)
EDIT: his other rule is, if he's in the same squad as Creed, he gets the Look Out rule (same as bodyguards) so Kell can take hits that are allocated to Creed.
2035
Post by: Khornatedemon
Thimn wrote:Khornatedemon wrote:
you can get standard russ's with plasma sponsons for the cost of a basic executioner which trades 1 plasma shot for the battlecannon. I have a feeling that will be the better buy.
Well I'd be getting the Executioner for the Heavy 3 for the turret. So that would be a loss of 6 shots total. After everything I have listed there you should still have ~750pts to pick up infantry and other goodies.
by 6 shots do you mean sponson heavy bolters? My point was that for the 190 points the executioner costs with no sponsons and 3 plasma cannon shots you can get a leman russ with plasma cannon sponsons and have 2 plasma cannon shots and a battlecannon shot. I think a battlecannon will do more damage than a single plasma cannon shot unless your facing tons of 2+ saves.
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Post by: Gestalt
I guess that makes Kell as good as a Vox if he is with Creed. LD8 with reroll = LD10
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
Thimn wrote:Khornatedemon wrote:
you can get standard russ's with plasma sponsons for the cost of a basic executioner which trades 1 plasma shot for the battlecannon. I have a feeling that will be the better buy.
Well I'd be getting the Executioner for the Heavy 3 for the turret. So that would be a loss of 6 shots total. After everything I have listed there you should still have ~750pts to pick up infantry and other goodies.
I think you'd be better off with 1 Executioner in the backfield with the Inquis+Mystics. That in itself is a whole lot of firepower, although, I suppose it's totally metagame dependent. If you're likely to see more than one deep-striking unit per turn, then yeah, maybe you need two Executioners, but it's a whole lot of points. I mean, one Executioner should be able to take out a Terminator Squad (or at least reduce it to a model or two) in a round of firing. How many squads to you expect to defend against per turn. Not to mention the fact that just by having the Inquis+Mystics you're saying to your opponent - "If you deep strike on me, I will kill that unit." That's a pretty big deterrent. You've got to be pretty boneheaded, desperate, or have some trick up your sleeve to intentionally drop within the radius of a Inquis+Mystics squad that's near a Demolisher or Executioner.
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Post by: Thimn
Death By Monkeys wrote:
I think you'd be better off with 1 Executioner in the backfield with the Inquis+Mystics. That in itself is a whole lot of firepower, although, I suppose it's totally metagame dependent. If you're likely to see more than one deep-striking unit per turn, then yeah, maybe you need two Executioners, but it's a whole lot of points. I mean, one Executioner should be able to take out a Terminator Squad (or at least reduce it to a model or two) in a round of firing. How many squads to you expect to defend against per turn. Not to mention the fact that just by having the Inquis+Mystics you're saying to your opponent - "If you deep strike on me, I will kill that unit." That's a pretty big deterrent. You've got to be pretty boneheaded, desperate, or have some trick up your sleeve to intentionally drop within the radius of a Inquis+Mystics squad that's near a Demolisher or Executioner.
Ahh I see what you guys are talking about. While 2 is expensive I think its better to have 2 then one because it could always get blown up/prevented from shooting before my opponents deep strikers can commit. That tank is going to be drawing firepower onto it so I want to make sure that the combo stays alive and effective.
In my gaming circle there is plenty of termies and drop pods constantly falling from the sky. Overkill? Perhaps but its not as if the tank would be useless just for fielding it.
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Post by: BoxANT
C&K issuing 4 orders to 4 HWS @ Ld10, good stuff .
Would you rather have a Inq/2Mystics behind a Executioner or a squad of LRBT?
I guess, if you know you are facing a bunch of DS Termies, but I think most games a bunch of battlecannon rounds would be awesome
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Post by: Death By Monkeys
BoxANT wrote:Would you rather have a Inq/2Mystics behind a Executioner or a squad of LRBT?
I guess, if you know you are facing a bunch of DS Termies, but I think most games a bunch of battlecannon rounds would be awesome
Do you mean:
1. Inquis+Mystics and squad of LRBTs, or just
2. Squad of LRBTs?
I mean, yeah, if my metagame doesn't do much deep striking, then I'll just take the straight LRBTs. But if it's a DS-heavy environment, I'd rather have the Executioner or Demolisher as they've got the all-important AP2 for dealing with Terminator armor. Sadly, battlecannon rounds can just bounce off Terminators.
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Post by: Scottywan82
Furhter evidence that to-hit modifiers and saving throw modifiers need to coem BACK to 40K!
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
Would it be too much to hope for that the valk/vendy can perform a kind of strafing run that allows it to fire from any point in it's movement? Perhaps it would grant a cover save to it's opponents if it does not stop moving to fire. That attack seems to me to be the way it would actually function in combat.
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Post by: aka_mythos
That sounds like the sort of ability a formation of Valkyries could get in Apocalypse.
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Post by: ph34r
Quistis84 wrote:ph34r wrote:The main thing I am wondering about at the moment concerning command squads is the cost of a master vox. If it ends up being too expensive I might just drop all voxes and take more infantry or command squads.
There's no such thing as a master-vox anymore. basically, if the officer's squad has a vox, and he's issuing orders to a squad that also has a vox, they get to re-roll their leadership test to see if they can act out the order.
That's good news, so voxes are 5 points for infantry squads, and command squads? I hated the idea of paying 25 points for the master vox.
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Post by: madmen
How many of the new special characters do you think will get there own models? Or do you think guys like Artillery Sergeant Harker will be conversion only?
Tanks!
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Post by: Quistis84
Yeah, voxes are 5 point for everyone (everyone that can take them, that is!)
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Post by: Mekboy
I assume they'll be like the orks ones, a second wave release.
(That's the characters, not the voxes)
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Post by: Lord Solar Plexus
Khornatedemon wrote:
you can get standard russ's with plasma sponsons for the cost of a basic executioner which trades 1 plasma shot for the battlecannon. I have a feeling that will be the better buy.
I see pro's and con's. For one, the Exec has rear AV 11. Secondly, it is much easier to get LoS with a turret gun than with both sponsons. Perhaps you're presenting side AV to get both to fire. Thirdly, the Russ has four guns, the Exec only two, so less back-up. It's all nothing major but hey.
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Post by: Platuan4th
madmen wrote:How many of the new special characters do you think will get there own models? Or do you think guys like Artillery Sergeant Harker will be conversion only?
Tanks!
As I've stated before I think Gunnery Sergeant Harker(Artillery Sergeant was a mistranslation from the French) will most likely be a re-release of the old Ox figure from the Last Chancers set(the one with the heavy bolter that happens to also look like a Catachan).  Edit: found a better picture.
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Post by: Scottywan82
Perfect! I can't wait.
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Post by: madmen
How do you guys feel about 2x SWS in a chimera with a total of 6 meltas or 6 demo charges?
Could be fun?
(typo)
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Post by: Janthkin
madmen wrote:How do you guys feel about 2x STS in a chimera with a total of 6 meltas or 6 demo charges?
Could be fun?
Seperate units can't share the same transport.
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Post by: Gestalt
I believe they said there is no limit on # of demo charges in a SWS, but I wouldn't throw them out of the chimera with their scatter. 
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Post by: Quistis84
up to 3 models in a SWS can have demo charges
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Post by: focusedfire
ubermosher wrote:Not to mention the traffic jam 9 Valk models on a table will give you.
Was think that myself. The idea of 2-3 Valks loaded/w vets, storms, or a mix is fun to play around with but if the footprint is really large then deepstriking them could be a pain.
Question-Is it only vendettas that come in squadrons or can it be valks also?
If it is also valks, then do the units loaded have to be from the same platoon?
Does the Valk have anything that lets them bounce their Deep Strike like drop pods?
Does the Storm Troopers re-roll Deep Strike scatter carry over to the Valkerie?
The idea of a squadron loaded with vets/ STs all arriving at the same time off of one reserve roll is intriguing. Just could be problematic if your opponent spreads out to make the deepstrike difficult and or if their is to much terrain.
Don't want an argument here or comments about my not knowing what I'm saying. Been playing a Deep Strike army, successfully, for 5 years with an army that uses non-expendable units and I'm simply asking questions.
Speaking of which, Next question.
Can units/squadrons intermingle if they all stay withing unit/squadron cohesion?
Reason I'm asking is that the Chimera is just under 4" wide and that 2 Russes without sponsons could theoretically sandwhich one between them without losing squadron coherency. There are some serious downsides to this tactic but would allow a push up the middle while protecting a Chimeras side armour. On the table edge you'd just lead with one russ and protect the side with the other. Still has downside from possible boxing in of Chimera, though.
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Post by: Quistis84
Valkyries come in squadrons too. There's no mention that they have to carry units from the same platoon.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Mekboy wrote:I assume they'll be like the orks ones, a second wave release.
(That's the characters, not the voxes)
I'm sure many of them will just get re-releases of their old miniatures, with the usual price mark up and repackage.
Lukas Bastonne and Harker are the only ones without a mini. Chenkov, Kamir, and Al’rahem will most certainly get redos, and I'd guess Nork stands a chance as well (but not necessary. These characters already have relatively upto date minis and will likely get that recycle treatment: Sly Marbo, Straken, Creed and Kell, Yarrick. Fortunately they're all still in the online store, for now.
In the same way Ox could potentially be recast as Harker, I could imagine them doing the same with Schaeffer as Lukas who until recently was being sold as a generic heroic officer online in the non-collectors section.
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Post by: AlexCage
But it seems they usually do some metals in each 'new wave'. And it's not like it's unusual for them to redo characters.
Personally, I'm betting we'll see an Al'Raheim or Chenkov recast at the very least. Probably alongside the useless Mogul Kamir.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
I would love them to do Kamir properly, but I'm afraid they'd just use one of those lackluster plastic horses.
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Post by: Scottywan82
Maybe they'll kick it up a notch alongside some new RRs. They latest fantasy cavalry has been freaking wicked!
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Post by: ubermosher
Platuan4th wrote:
As I've stated before I think Gunnery Sergeant Harker(Artillery Sergeant was a mistranslation from the French) will most likely be a re-release of the old Ox figure from the Last Chancers set(the one with the heavy bolter that happens to also look like a Catachan).
Edit: found a better picture.
Until then you can expect to see a bunch of SM scout w/ HB models.
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Post by: madmen
ubermosher wrote:Platuan4th wrote:
As I've stated before I think Gunnery Sergeant Harker(Artillery Sergeant was a mistranslation from the French) will most likely be a re-release of the old Ox figure from the Last Chancers set(the one with the heavy bolter that happens to also look like a Catachan).
Edit: found a better picture.
Until then you can expect to see a bunch of SM scout w/ HB models.
Yep I got a few scout HB arms on my Catachans May have to reconvert one to look extra bad ass.
Speaking of metal models what officers (besides commander) are going to be able to have boltguns. I have a few metal catachan Lts that may have no place in my army soon =/
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Post by: aka_mythos
AlexCage wrote:But it seems they usually do some metals in each 'new wave'. And it's not like it's unusual for them to redo characters.
They've reached their quota, for this wave. Commisar Lord, Ratlings, Advisors, Primaris Psyker, in addition to all the plastic we get with this wave.
They've redone characters in the past, Yarrick was redone at one point, so was Marneus Calgar and a number of characters from other armies as well, certainly not alot but enough to create precedent. If rumors of greatcoats ever turn out to be true, that's when they'd redo Chenkov.
Most everything rumored in the pipelines beyond this codex is plastic. That leaves room for a good number of metal models to be done. I think with plastic Roughriders rumored as being worked on that makes Kamir likely.
We really don't need much in this department, which means they'll either redo those characters or give us something we can "meh" like more sanctioned psykers.
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Post by: Alpharius
Scottywan82 wrote:Furhter evidence that to-hit modifiers and saving throw modifiers need to coem BACK to 40K!
YES!
I agree! (Terminator armor saving on a 3+ on 2d6!)
It will also NEVER happen!
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Post by: AlexCage
Or! Or PLASTIC Sanctioned Pyskers! YES!
Cool idea, but if they were released before plastic Stormtroopers there'd be rioting in the aisles of GWs everywhere.
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Post by: aka_mythos
I doubt there is enough demand for plastic Psykers. Stormtroopers are for Planet Strike. We'll see the Rough Riders, Chimera/Hellhound etc., LR BT/Demo/Exterm./Vanq., and probably Artillery (Griffon/Colossus, Basilisk, and Medusa) as plastic kits in wave two. I can't imagine us getting more than that in plastic. IG would only need a hydra, deathstrike, manticore, and the remaining LR variants all of which could be handled by FW or a direct order sprues.
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Post by: Che-Vito
< Taken by the void dragon. >
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Post by: Scottywan82
Boo on FW and Boo on direct order!
I hope they make it all in plastic as they have for SM. But of course, they won't because they're not for SM!
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Post by: Kungfuhustler
too bad every resin kit I get from FW is warped or has 3-4 over-pours of resin. Those guys need to get their $hit togeather and get a quality control dept. before I ever order from them again. Those guys are crap.
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Post by: AlexCage
Kungfuhustler wrote:too bad every resin kit I get from FW is warped or has 3-4 over-pours of resin. Those guys need to get their $hit togeather and get a quality control dept. before I ever order from them again. Those guys are crap.
They skimp on QC to put more points in PR. Minmaxing bastards.
Luckily it means they'll send you replacements for pretty much anything that's badly casted, broken, severely warped, or just wrong (I've gotten Conqueror turrets instead of Demolisher Turrets before. Woo hoo, now I have Nova Cannon turrets!).
Usually you don't have to return anything, or pay shipping for the new items. Give 'em a ring!
This Forge World pimping brought to you by a helpless resin junkie.
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Post by: aka_mythos
Well lets look at it this way... if FW rejected all the models shipped out that had minor warping how much more expensive would each good kit have to be to make up the cost? Resin isn't easy. It also gives you a sense of their profit margin that they can so easily fix their QC problems by shipping a free replacement.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Don't defend FW. Their QA is shocking.
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Post by: Gestalt
aka_mythos wrote:Well lets look at it this way... if FW rejected all the models shipped out that had minor warping how much more expensive would each good kit have to be to make up the cost? Resin isn't easy. It also gives you a sense of their profit margin that they can so easily fix their QC problems by shipping a free replacement.
Or they could put the money they lose on free replacements into QA?
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Post by: AlexCage
H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't defend FW. Their QA is shocking.
Shocking in the fact that it doesn't exist? Like, at all?
Their customer service has done so well by me that I'll defend them to the death! Or until they wrong me, whichever comes first.
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Post by: Lord Solaar
AlexCage wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't defend FW. Their QA is shocking.
Shocking in the fact that it doesn't exist? Like, at all?
Their customer service has done so well by me that I'll defend them to the death! Or until they wrong me, whichever comes first.
How did you even get in touch with them? They never answed any of my e-mails and international calling is completely out of the question
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Scottywan82 wrote:Maybe they'll kick it up a notch alongside some new RRs. They latest fantasy cavalry has been freaking wicked!
Actually, it turns out the latest from Warseer says Kamir gets his D3+1 charge bonus attacks from, wait for it it, a "Mechanical Horse". So that means either they're not releasing a model, or it'll be all-metal.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
They made a robotic horse for the Empire. They could do it here. I doubt it though - Kamir didn't get a model in 2nd Ed - so I'll be surprised if Wave Workshop will make one this time around.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
It's too bad FW isn't interested in doing individual figures anymore. Intricate special characters would be lovely in resin. I can only suppose doing full ranges is so profitable (judging from the amount of Death Korps armies out there) for them that they don't care.
As for ragging FW in general, I cannot in all honesty accuse them of anything because none of my FW models (two vehciles, an artillery piece, four infantry and a Cadian upgrade kit) have been very bad at all. Gotten lucky so far, I surmise.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yes. Lucky is the world. Never order old minis, only the newest stuff.
And what's this about them not being interested in individual figures any more? Just recently they did a Daemon Prince, Herald, Khornate Terminator Lord and a new Terminator Inquisitor?
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Post by: Agamemnon2
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes. Lucky is the world. Never order old minis, only the newest stuff.
And what's this about them not being interested in individual figures any more? Just recently they did a Daemon Prince, Herald, Khornate Terminator Lord and a new Terminator Inquisitor?
Hm, now that I think on it, my Malcador was ordered pre-release, but the Arvus, Thudd Gun, Titan crew and Tech-servitor were all fairly established models by the time I received them.
Sorry, "individual" as a poor word. I meant it in the sense "not related to an ongoing IA campaign book". The last such example we saw was the new Eldar Cobra, and that was apparently in the pipeline for a long, long time. Hm, or were the Biker Nobz later than that?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Not Bikerz were recent, but that was to go with the release of a Codex, which I assume counts just as much as whatever volume of the Siege of Vraks they're up to this month (cannot wait for that series to end - not because it's bad, but so we can move onto something else).
Arvus, Thudd Gun, Titan crew and Tech Servitor are all 'new'. When I say old, I mean the original stuff before the big boom, so old Super Heavies, the older Guard vehicles and conversion kits.
The Manticores, a smaller kit, are impossible to put together without converting the Chimera hulls you're using, yet the Bombard (after a little lovin' with some hot water to bend a few things) fit to the Russ chassis perfectly. The original Stormblade had me wishing death upon the world by the time I was done it was so maddening difficult to put together (there are still parts that don't fit together), yet I can't find fault with the Macharius tanks I own.
Newer = Better.
FW's tech has improved. They're still lousy at using it, but at least we're now fighting against good models made badly, rather than bad models made badly. It's progress - slow progress - but progress nonetheless.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
ah, I see what you mean.
We typically get far less advance warning of FW releases, so at this juncture, it's anyone's guess what comes out from them within the next couple of months. A Vendetta conversion kit would sell like hotcakes, I'm sure.
I think a part of FW's problem in general is that they don't break their casts into small enough parts. A lot of parts on the kits are really, really complex, which results in air bubbles and so on. They're trying, and failing to balance playability with cast-ability.
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Post by: AlexCage
Lord Solaar wrote:AlexCage wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Don't defend FW. Their QA is shocking.
Shocking in the fact that it doesn't exist? Like, at all?
Their customer service has done so well by me that I'll defend them to the death! Or until they wrong me, whichever comes first.
How did you even get in touch with them? They never answed any of my e-mails and international calling is completely out of the question
Oh. Well if International Calling isn't an option for you then I really don't know. I've heard some people do get email responses, but that seems to be the exception, rather than the rule. I just give 'em a call bright an early in the morning local time (So before they leave for the day). Always super helpful over the phone. I guess they have an aversion to written communications.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
The Manticores, a smaller kit, are impossible to put together without converting the Chimera hulls you're using, yet the Bombard (after a little lovin' with some hot water to bend a few things) fit to the Russ chassis perfectly. The original Stormblade had me wishing death upon the world by the time I was done it was so maddening difficult to put together (there are still parts that don't fit together), yet I can't find fault with the Macharius tanks I own.
Newer = Better.
FW's tech has improved. They're still lousy at using it, but at least we're now fighting against good models made badly, rather than bad models made badly. It's progress - slow progress - but progress nonetheless.
Seriously, what's with the Manticore/Hydra kits? Why in the name of all that is holy are they 2 MM narrower than the space alloted in the Chimera chasis?! I should just get a belt sander for my next one...
But you can see the best example of this discrepency in quality when looking at Aeronautica models. They use their old epic casts for Thunderbolts, Lightnings, and Marauder bombers, but all the new stuff, like Marauder Recon planes and Heavy Bombers are all.. new! The old are horrible casts and the molds are CLEARLY past their prime. Absolute CRAP on detail, and even for such small, simple models, they are horrible on miscasts and warping. The new ones are crisp, detailed, and an absolute joy to work with.
It makes me wonder how different Elysians would be from DKOK, even though they are relatively newer.
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