The Good:
Basic troopers (got better higher LD lower price and frags)
Penal Legion (assuming base cost of 50 these guys look like fun
Sentinals (prices got a drop so you can not complain too much)
Stock Russ's (lumbering and squadron make these things a part of the new IG power build)
Manticore's (d3 s10 blasts for every rocket? If you can fire off more than one like the IA one than color me sold)
Hydra's (75 points could be useful against certain armies and builds)
Griffon (75 point str 6 large blasts!)
Vendetta 130 points for three twin linked lascanons troop 12, 12 12 10 and ultra fast.... Yeah I will buy one
Chimera (55 points is a good drop in points)

Possible Good:
All of the special characters, (no costs yet but looks like some cool builds)
Psycher Choir (could be good need more detail)
Conscripts (need more data)
advisors (look cool, but need more pricing data)

Possible Bad:
Valkerie, why buy one when you can get a vendetta?
Death strike (love the idea by the way, but this is a APOC toy)
Commisars (if they can take fists and where they can go will determine if these guys are all right)
Ratlings (need price and rules

Known Bad (even these are not really bad, but over-inflated priced)
Stormies 16pts,
Ogryn 40
Plasma tank 210pts WTF?
Most other Russ varients (over priced)
Most other arty not already listed (over priced)

Did I leave anything out? Anyone think any of these need to be moved to a different section?

Warning: Posters will abide by Rule #1 on this thread. Moderators are watching afetr the last thread was locked.

Well, Valkyrie vs Vendetta isnt that clearcut. Against some armies, I'd want those sexy MRPs.

I guess Frazz missed the fact that Page 11 was almost 100% on topic. Anyway, here are the last few posts from that thread:

Aggy wrote:

Shummy wrote:
Which is the problem with having too many unit options. Units will be redundant. The IG don't need as many tanks as they have, they don't need ogryns, they don't need ratling snipers, they don't really even need the penal troops. The codex has enormous variety but a large amount of overlapping or unnecessary roles. The ogryn simply fall into a niche that the IG have no need for and would need to be pointlessly cheap to see use over more versatile and numerous base troop and tank combinations. Their biggest problem is that they don't fit in the army.

I've sometimes advocated "Make them decent at their role or take them out", but really, I wouldn't want to lose Ogryns. They're a fun piece of background material. Of course, if I had my druthers, we wouldn't've lost Electro-Priests either.

Aggy wrote:Nork with FNP warms the very cockles of my heart, because it means there's at least one Ogryn in the game who's as tough as one should be. I'm not sure if he'll be all that useful, since getting your command HQ into close combat is a large liability for IG, doubly so if it costs you two Orders per turn.

H to the B to the mother fething MC wrote:Speaking of Nork, does anyone think that they'll (eventually) re-issue the original Nork model, or make a new one? Ditto for Chenkov and Al'rahem?

Shep wrote:You might have already answered this, but do you have an aversion to running your kasrkin as veterans with 3x special weapons, 4+ armor save BS4 troops?

Your's Truly wrote:I'm very much against counts-as. I'm one of those people who will go out and buy a model to represent something I don't have rather than sub it during a game. A while back for a series of upcoming games I needed some Scouts w/Missile Launchers and two Land Speeders w/Heavy Flamers, so I went out and bought some scouts and two new Land Speeders.

I'm just one of those people who really likes WYSIWYG, and will usually not field something if I cannot rep it with the correct model. It's one of the reasons I own about 10 Marine Commanders with various weapon options, and then several duplicates of those models but with Jump Packs added and why I own 15 standard Russes (I have three of each possible weapon config - Hull HB, Hull LC, Hull HB + Sponson HBs, Hull LC + Sponson HBs). I hate fielding things that look different to what they're armed with or what they are. It's a personal OCD-ish thing.

So the answer is no, I wouldn't use them as H-Vets because... well... they're Storm Troopers. I love using them as Storm Troopers, even though they've never been that great (really, having 6 squads in Chimeras is great fun, even if they're worthless, and I imagine that 6 squads in Valks will be even more worthless, but way more fun!).

I just can't use a unit that is clearly one thing as something else completely.

And... go!

Looks good foil.

Am I the only person having a hard time accepting that even GW could write rules as bad as some of these rumors? 16pt stormtroopers? 40pt Ogryn? I mean, units with that price tag, and the limited stats and gear we know they have, need to have amazing rules to justify that cost. Yet things like Harliquins earn their points at a similarly stupid cost. There is a possiblity that there are some buried rules that justify it.

If not, than that speaks really poorly for GW's design. I've seen at least 3 solid ideas for both stormtroopers and Ogryn on fan sites (cheap and decent, same price and booster, and really good an pricey), but none went as high as these guys. We'll see.

It looks like the core of infantry platoons, heavy weapon squads, tanks, and veterans to taste might remain the core units in the list. that's good, as it means my army doesn't need to be shuffled, but it's a bit of a bummer that they couldn't figure out how to add genuine variety to the IG.

IG aren't great in combat, but that simply means we can't build a combat oriented army, not that we should suck at it utterly. What are some of the best shooting units in the game? Obliterators, Dakkafexes, lootas. All in traditionally HtH armies. There is room for many different assault units in the IG book:

Penal Legion: troops that can score, cheap, limited shooting, speedbump/harassment team. Have enough bite to threaten outflankers, deep strikers, etc.
Ogryn: tough, durable, hit hard enough to go toe to toe with nearly any non-dedicated assault squad, or a depleted assault unit after some shooting.
Rough Riders: a one hit wonder, able to lay plenty of wounds against high armored foes, can assault vehicles with krak grenades,

There are plenty of good roles left. Why not include zealots (with soem form of invlunerable save) or Catachan Devils (poison attacks combined with great short range shooting)

There are plenty of cool IG niches available, they just need to fill them. In the current codex there are just too many variations on "assault units that don't do much damage, loss by a lot, get swept, and end up accomplishing nothing."

Careful HBMC, you are the list of posters I am reviewing tomorrow after I have calmed down overnight.

Adding my last post from previous thread

I bet they are counting the +1 str from ripper guns as the furious charge.

He did say ogryns were 40 points, he also said that the 115 cost may be the Bone'ead and 3 ogryn, for 4 total. Or it may be 3 total, so there is still hope at least. Nork has FNP too.


The tank commander is BS4 and +1 to armor pen rolls, The vanquisher cannon doesnt really need that but it would give a hull lascannon S10 at the same target. That would be 220 points.

BOLS has the twin linked and +1 armor pen as 2 separate orders. Fire in ranks seems to be lasgun only, not plasma guns/hellguns. Orders are taken using the receiving squad's LD, not the officer, so Vox is pretty mandatory and might screw hvy weapon squads then.

Plasma tank is 230 for 5 plasma templates, 4 while moving, Not hugely overpriced. Some russ are good, some not.
Sentinels didnt drop in price, still 35?
Ogryns MAY be 115 for Bone'ead and 3 ogryn (4 guys), dont know options. So Possibly bad.
Heavy weapon squads may be Possible bad if they are just 3 bases(6 men) as it would mean no ld 8 sarge, no vox, 2 wounds loses a gun.

No one has mentioned if the officers have the leadership rule still, and if they do why would they bother with orders using the receiving unit's leadership instead of the giving officer?

I'll wait and see...but stormies at 16pts may not be THAT bad.... depends alot on their equipment, unit entry, special rules, transport etc...
Being able to drop 5 of these bad boys off from a valkyre and nuke just about anything for 100 pts (assuming 16 pts each and about 10pts for a melta gun, 20pts for 2)... that'll be worth it

I'm holding my breath in regards to the battle report that will no doubt pit Guard against Orks.

Hi foil!

Looks pretty good...

I might have added a few of your 'definitely bad's to the 'maybe bad's section, but I think you've got the broad strokes painted in nicely.

@HBMC in regards to your reply from earlier. I looked through your gallery but couldn't figure out if you run your army as a cadian army, and use your ISTs to represent kasrkin, and if so, wouldn't it actually be MORE accurate to have the kasrkin models be veterans. My cadian fluff knowledge is a bit rusty but the kasrkin don't actually attend the schola progenium right? They didn't go to toy soldier school so they don't have to be ISTs. Veterans may end up being a better fluff representation.

I can see that their might be a sticking point on their hellguns. I suppose fluff does imply that kasrkin are issued with hellguns and although it won't have any game impact for you (ap5 versus ap-) i can see that you don't like the idea of the kasrkins big heavy backpack fed lasguns not being something different than the stock lasgun.

I dunno, I think it might be cool to try out the veterans as your basic troop choice.

And of course if your ISTs are supposed to actually be ISTs then please disregard

I would add the hellhound to the known bad or possibly bad category, but that's probably just because that was my favorite unit in the last book. I only play my Guard in Cityfight. A 12 inch range is just too close for such a squishy and reportedly expensive vehicle. And do we know anything about what tanks are allowed track guards?

I'm really looking forward to seeing the Codex. With the large volume of tanks and shooty goodness, a legion modelled as traitor guard will provide excellent backup for my CC-centric Khorne army.

Are sentinels actually good now with the price drop? I've played mine a few times, and I can't remember thinking "man, these cost a bit more than they're worth." Instead, I'm usually watching them accomplish nothing and then die.

The Good:
Basic troopers (got better higher LD lower price and frags)
Penal Legion (assuming base cost of 50 these guys look like fun
Sentinals (prices got a drop so you can not complain too much)
Stock Russ's (lumbering and squadron make these things a part of the new IG power build)
Manticore's (d3 s10 blasts for every rocket? If you can fire off more than one like the IA one than color me sold)
Hydra's (75 points could be useful against certain armies and builds)
Griffon (75 point str 6 large blasts!)
Vendetta 130 points for three twin linked lascanons troop 12, 12 12 10 and ultra fast.... Yeah I will buy one
Chimera (55 points is a good drop in points)
IG command section (orders and only one VP mean that these guys got a major boost)

Possible Good:
All of the special characters, (no costs yet but looks like some cool builds)
Psycher Choir (could be good need more detail)
Conscripts (need more data)
advisors (look cool, but need more pricing data)
Special weapon squads (look to be cheaper and able to take 3 demo charges)

The Arguable:
HellHounds and Varients (went up in price, lost range, but are now fast..... have seen quotes both ways)

Possible Bad:
Valkerie, why buy one when you can get a vendetta?
Death strike (love the idea by the way, but this is a APOC toy)
Commisars (if they can take fists and where they can go will determine if these guys are all right)
Ratlings (need price and rules)
Heavy Weapon Sqauds (will need to know how many men in a squad, this may move to GOOD easily if 10 man squad)

Known Bad (even these are not really bad, but over-inflated priced)
Stormies 16pts,
Ogryn 40
Plasma tank 210pts WTF?
Most other Russ varients (over priced)
Most other arty not already listed (over priced)

Updated with new comments and recomendations

Polonius wrote:Are sentinels actually good now with the price drop? I've played mine a few times, and I can't remember thinking "man, these cost a bit more than they're worth." Instead, I'm usually watching them accomplish nothing and then die.

Not sure, yet. PLay testing will tell, but they did come down in price so I have to mark that as them getting a bump in power.

foil7102 wrote:Known Bad (even these are not really bad, but over-inflated priced)
Plasma tank 210pts WTF?

Hilarious.

An armor 14/13/12 tank for 240 pts that can shed 5 plasma blast templates a turn is...bad? You crack me up.

Sorry guardsmen, I agree that apparent 16 points for stormies with a middling ap3 weaksauce hotshot lasgun is overpriced because they really only function well against marines and average at best, but not everything in your army can be so good and be cheap at the same time.

If anything, this tank should be in the ranks of "OMFG! Supergood!" as its utility surpasses merely killing marines, but with the blast template layout, it is good against ALL armies.

Bignutter wrote:Being able to drop 5 of these bad boys off from a valkyre and nuke just about anything for 100 pts (assuming 16 pts each and about 10pts for a melta gun, 20pts for 2)... that'll be worth it

Try 200+ points when you factor in the Valk, and the fact that doing this will require two FOC slots. Not such a good deal. Besides, such a unit will die instantly after shooting. Ok, that's normal for Stormies and things like them, but I don't know if I want to use Stormies as a suicide Melta unit when they're 16 points each.

I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

BrookM wrote:I'm holding my breath in regards to the battle report that will no doubt pit Guard against Orks.

I wonder if Orks will win . . .

I was kinda hoping for a Leman Russ with the ability to take heavy flamers/inferno cannons and multi-meltas, like a sort of 'heavy hellhound'. Not a very original concept, but it would be cool to see.

foil7102 wrote:

Polonius wrote:Are sentinels actually good now with the price drop? I've played mine a few times, and I can't remember thinking "man, these cost a bit more than they're worth." Instead, I'm usually watching them accomplish nothing and then die.

Not sure, yet. PLay testing will tell, but they did come down in price so I have to mark that as them getting a bump in power.

I mean, a squadron of three with ML is only going to be 105pts, which isn't very much. It's mobile and can outflank. The problem with comparing sentinels to Warwalkers (AV10 light walkers that actually do something) was always that WWs were heavies. Now that IG can overload on heavies, anything that can't score or launch ordnance probably needs to be pretty good to justify inclusion.

You're right, the unit is clearly feisty, and improved, but every codex includes units that are decent, got a power bump, and are fun to play, but simply never see the light of day due to competition from other sources. I've got a whole bunch of sentinels, though, and being able to run them effectively would make me a happy panda.

Polonius wrote:Are sentinels actually good now with the price drop? I've played mine a few times, and I can't remember thinking "man, these cost a bit more than they're worth." Instead, I'm usually watching them accomplish nothing and then die.

I think they will be better than they are now, but "good" is a relative term. You can still get a Chimera (better armour and two guns) for less than two Multi-Laser Sentinels though, so that's a nod against the Sentinel. They're still about 10 points overpriced (25 points for an AV10 walker with a single BS3 gun seems about right, and then the usual +0 for Heavy Flamer, +5 for AC/Missile Launcher/Multi-Melta, +10 or +15 for Lascannon/Plasma Cannon would work better).

The interesting part though is the camo-netting. Armoured Top and all that other crap never made any sense on Sentinels because at the end of the day they were AV10 vehicles and died when you looked at them. An AV12 support sentinel with a Lascannon or Plasma Cannon, sitting in cover with Camo-Netting is suddenly an AV12 Sniper with a 3+ save. I don't know how much that is in points (Scout Sentinel would be 55, assuming 35+10+10). So hopefully around the 60 to 65 (+/-) mark. Any more than that and you'd be better off with something else though.

H.B.M.C. wrote: I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

And with this, I agree.

How much time did they spend on creating a new model range for the newest army set and watch them go away . . .

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

Isn't that more to do with the crapness of the Vespid models?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

Come now, HBMC, look at your own sig! The question isn't "Does anybody play Vespids," the question is "does anybody BUY Vespids."

the Warseer poster "the Knowing" dropped some bombs on their version of this thread. Including the news that Storm Troopers are limited to 6 men per squad. Important if true.

Hm, actually, from context. tjat COULD be a brainfart. I think he's answering to a question about SWSes.

Uriels_Flame wrote:I wonder if Orks will win . . .

I remember the BatRep when the Guard Codex was last released. Pete Haines took a foot-slogging Infantry Horde with no HW's in squads and rushed the Orks. LOL!

Maybe my search-fu is bad, considering Im at work right now, but I see that special weapon squads are 6 man, but do we know if heavy weapon squads are 6 man>? I have seen a rumor that says they are 3 teams, 4 guys, for 10 wounds..

Polonius wrote:Now that IG can overload on heavies, anything that can't score or launch ordnance probably needs to be pretty good to justify inclusion.

I guess we know which army all the displaced Iron Warriors will go for . . .

That's a rumour that was bandied around before we saw that HW teams were single W2 models. It seems less likely now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:I wonder if Orks will win . . .

I remember the BatRep when the Guard Codex was last released. Pete Haines took a foot-slogging Infantry Horde with no HW's in squads and rushed the Orks. LOL!

Battle report this time around will doubtless contain as many Valkyries as the FOC allows. Or they'll just say "Sod it!" and play an Apocalypse game so they can use as many as they like.

Polonius wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

Come now, HBMC, look at your own sig! The question isn't "Does anybody play Vespids," the question is "does anybody BUY Vespids."

And according to EBAY that would be a NO....

Well, at least the core units/issues seem to have been addressed. KPs can be managed, infantry platoons look solid, chimeras are a much easier pill to swallow, LRBT will still be a corner stone, my beloved multilaser sentinels might come off the shelf, Arty looks golden, we have fast skimmer transports, and orders add a whole new flavor to IG.

Yes, some of our "specialists" seem questionable, but I still think everything so far is playable (just perhaps not optimal). And all of the Hellhound variants seem risky, but might work if used correctly (I am actually thinking about the ap3 poison flamer, might be very powerful if you use it correctly).

I really like that tidbit on BoLS that mentioned that certain squad leaders might be able to issue orders to their squad (ie Vets). Would be very cool if vets, stormies, and commissars had that option!

Some things I would like answered.
1. Can infantry squads take 2 special weapons instead of a SW/HW?
2. rapid fire order effect plasmaguns?
3. i would love to know the upgrade options for Vet Sgt (now that we get them for free)
4. where can commissars be placed?
5. point cost on SWS

I'd love it if Commissars could order squads, because I'm worried that command squads are going to be easily dispatch'd.

Polonius wrote:Looks good foil.

Am I the only person having a hard time accepting that even GW could write rules as bad as some of these rumors? 16pt stormtroopers? 40pt Ogryn? I mean, units with that price tag,

I got to about this point in your post and stopped reading... I'm add but whatever. anyways when you said "pricetag" I figured I'd point out that a squad of 4 ogryn and a bone head costs $88usd before sales tax. Ten stormtroopers cast $45. So someone doesn't already own these models why would they buy the product? The rules apparently suck. What are they thinking? I bought a couple ogryn the other day because I thought they might get fixed. I was probably mistaken. no refunds on assembled models. oh well, I'll get painting.

I mean, I think that the core of a relatively archtypical IG army will only be stronger in the new book. Better infantry, transports, officers and tanks add up to a good time. If veterans are troops than giving them a chimera and zooming about is going to be the order of the day.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Polonius wrote:Looks good foil.

Am I the only person having a hard time accepting that even GW could write rules as bad as some of these rumors? 16pt stormtroopers? 40pt Ogryn? I mean, units with that price tag,

I got to about this point in your post and stopped reading... I'm add but whatever. anyways when you said "pricetag" I figured I'd point out that a squad of 4 ogryn and a bone head costs $88usd before sales tax. Ten stormtroopers cast $45. So someone doesn't already own these models why would they buy the product? The rules apparently suck. What are they thinking? I bought a couple ogryn the other day because I thought they might get fixed. I was probably mistaken. no refunds on assembled models. oh well, I'll get painting.

Hehe, I meant price tag in terms of cost in game, but you raise a really good point. Personally? I think GW is afraid of losing profit margin on metals, particularly bulky ones like STs and Ogryn, and would rather encourage the purchase of high margin plastic command squads.

New argument!

What Leman Russ configurations are going to be the prime for 5th edition? I'm thinking the punisher is going to be pretty popular. The sheer volume of shots is going to overwhelm power lists (Nob bikers, dual lash, etc).

I would love to have some plastic ogryn. are the ogres from fantasy plastic? I may need a couple boxes if so...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Bignutter wrote:Being able to drop 5 of these bad boys off from a valkyre and nuke just about anything for 100 pts (assuming 16 pts each and about 10pts for a melta gun, 20pts for 2)... that'll be worth it

Try 200+ points when you factor in the Valk, and the fact that doing this will require two FOC slots. Not such a good deal. Besides, such a unit will die instantly after shooting. Ok, that's normal for Stormies and things like them, but I don't know if I want to use Stormies as a suicide Melta unit when they're 16 points each.

I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

Just to clarify you're saying its not that its bad, its just there are better options. That I think is the best argument against not just the Tanks but some of the other units. I realize its splitting hairs, but that makes a crucial difference in interpreting these units.

I think the critical thing about STs for me is that with everything they have, the have the best likely hood for me to be able to put them where they need to be. They're cost prohibitive nature means that they need to be used in a very thought out way to succeed with them. They will shoot up marines and they'll get to where you need them, if thats what you need you will probably get their points worth out of them. I think the hurt though comes from the fact that they went from being a general front line unit to a niche unit, driven not just by cost but by the nature of their abilities. The way they will have to be used to be successful with them, is closer to how I imagine a special ops force being used; they've gone from army rangers to delta-force (in no strict sense).

I think with the amount that can be packed into Veteran squads, they will probably be more suited to "suicide" duty.
"Suicide mission HA!--- But The commissar gave us all a pat on the back and some extra weapons--- No, no that's just how he says 'I love you'"

Stock Russ. Stripped down, and spammed. If 5th edition has taught us anything, it's that AV14 is tough to kill from a distance. Take enough and rip open the enemy. If lumbering behemoth works as we think it does, than adding HB sponsons might not be bad, but it's 20pts that only fire when the tank doesn't move, and 7 sponsons almost gets you another tank.

@CE: I think massed S8+ blast templates will do more damage to Nob bikes and dual lash than 20 S5 AP- shots.

It'll be a fun thing to use and will have it's place vs. certain lists (can see it doing well vs. Tyranids) but I still think it's inferior to the standard LR.

Cheese Elemental - Honestly I'm liking the look of the stock Russ, and the Eradicator.

I know, that's weird given how I said the Eradicator was the most redundant of the lot when it was first revealed, but now that we know the Hellhound has been transformed into the Nerfhound, the Eradicator is suddenly looking quite good.

S6 wounds Orks on a 2+.
AP4 ignores their 6+ save.
Ignores Cover ignores... their Cover.

All good Anti-Ork weapons. Then you've got Battlecannons to (hopefully) eat into Nob Bikers.

Only sad part is the Ogryn can't stand in front of the Nob Bikers and take the charge because the Nob Bikers will outnumber the Ogryn!

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm just one of those people who really likes WYSIWYG..., why I own 15 standard Russes (I have three of each possible weapon config - Hull HB, Hull LC, Hull HB + Sponson HBs, Hull LC + Sponson HBs). I hate fielding things that look different to what they're armed with or what they are. It's a personal OCD-ish thing.

I'm fairly hardcore about WYSIWYG myself, HBMC, and I was just curious as to why you did it this way rather than just magnetising sponson & hull weapons. Surely that would be easier than buying a whole new tank for each option (I realise that you're a dyed-in-the-wool treadhead). I know if I ever finish my Tau, I'd buy 15 magnetised Crisis suits and not 15 * however many combos ther are. Is magnetising just not feasible with the Russ kits?

Cheese Elemental wrote:New argument!

What Leman Russ configurations are going to be the prime for 5th edition? I'm thinking the punisher is going to be pretty popular. The sheer volume of shots is going to overwhelm power lists (Nob bikers, dual lash, etc).

I think the eradicator with its anti-cover save will be the most successful, but I think the Punisher and Executioner will get used alot more.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

aka_mythos wrote:I think with the amount that can be packed into Veteran squads, they will probably be more suited to "suicide" duty.
"Suicide mission HA!--- But The commissar gave us all a pat on the back and some extra weapons--- No, no that's just how he says 'I love you'"

If that's the case, and H-Vets can still get a trio of Meltas for 10 points a piece (and you can bring a small squad), then shove 'em in a Valk and go Land Raider hunting, then that's great. It gives a reason to keep using H-Vets. But at the same time it means that H-Vets are still better than Stormies.

Counter-Point: Using H-Vets in such a role means you are giving up actual scoring units, so that's important to remember.

Ah. Honestly, don't care that much. I just want my ISTs in Valks. That's really what matters the most to me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Only sad part is the Ogryn can't stand in front of the Nob Bikers and take the charge because the Nob Bikers will outnumber the Ogryn!

Well, at least even the most skeptical assessment puts the Ogryns' point cost as slightly lower than that of the Biker Nobz.

Polonius wrote:Stock Russ. Stripped down, and spammed. If 5th edition has taught us anything, it's that AV14 is tough to kill from a distance. Take enough and rip open the enemy. If lumbering behemoth works as we think it does, than adding HB sponsons might not be bad, but it's 20pts that only fire when the tank doesn't move, and 7 sponsons almost gets you another tank.

8 stock russ for 1,200... not bad

Ozymandias wrote:@CE: I think massed S8+ blast templates will do more damage to Nob bikes and dual lash than 20 S5 AP- shots.

It'll be a fun thing to use and will have it's place vs. certain lists (can see it doing well vs. Tyranids) but I still think it's inferior to the standard LR.

maybe, but 87 str 5 shots is pretty good. still no kill due to bs3, but, it softens em up a bit. 10.xx failed saves

Cheese Elemental wrote:New argument!

What Leman Russ configurations are going to be the prime for 5th edition? I'm thinking the punisher is going to be pretty popular. The sheer volume of shots is going to overwhelm power lists (Nob bikers, dual lash, etc).

I think we are still going to be seeing a lot of stock standard LRBT (perhaps even with no sponsons), at 150 points, it's still a great value. Hell even at a 170 it's still not a bad buy and can stand still and unleash a lot of dakka.

Other than LRBT, I think you'll see some PentaPlasma action, which i think will replace our beloved demolisher :( as the terminator slayer. I'm worried about the roll of the demolisher in our new codex, it might just become a tank killer, no sponsons and a hull lascannon. Unlike the Vanquisher you could shoot at armor and still blast with pie.

You'll see the "29 S5" tank, but I think that people might realize that leaving the sponsons off it is a better option. With a 24" maingun, you'll be wanting to move a lot (like the current hellhound).

The underdog is the Eradicator, it costs more points than the LRBT, is only S6 ap4 but ignores cover... It will rock against Orks, but honestly, I don't know why it costs *more* than a LRBT



Right now my mental Heavy selection will be
LRBT x2
Eradicator x2
Griffon x2
= 770 for 6 pie
*Perhaps* add in sponsons... but unless you can move and fire *everything*, I doubt i will.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I'm fairly hardcore about WYSIWYG myself, HBMC, and I was just curious as to why you did it this way rather than just magnetising sponson & hull weapons. Surely that would be easier than buying a whole new tank for each option (I realise that you're a dyed-in-the-wool treadhead). I know if I ever finish my Tau, I'd buy 15 magnetised Crisis suits and not 15 * however many combos ther are. Is magnetising just not feasible with the Russ kits?

Because I want to be able to field any and all of these models simultenously.

For instance, ignoring the fact that getting complete kits from Forge World is more economically sound than just ordering turrets, I could have just ordered four Vanquisher turrets and swapped them out on my existing Russes whenever I wanted to use one. I didn't though, I ordered four complete Vanquisher kits. And I did this because I want to be able to field my Vanqs and my Russes at the same time, and never have to make that choice.

There's also a lot of fluff behind it. I have come up with a lot of fluff for my Guard army, and I like having complete units. My Russes fit into exactly three Companies of 10 Russes each, and each Company has a specific role to play. Yes, it would have been more reasonable to magnatise my Demolishers so I could swap between Multi-Meltas and Plasma Cannons, but I like the fact that I have two MM Demolishers and four Plasma Cannon Demolishers - there's a certain symmetry to having a squadron that has 1 MM and 2 PCs in it. Same goes for all main Russ Company that has three Squadrons that consist of a Vanq and 2 stock Russes.

I like having complete units rather than trying to use one unit to do a bunch of different things. I don't do this always (I have two Chaos Predators, but four turrets to use between them) but I will usually go out and get a second unit than try to make one unit modular.

hmph, according to "The Knowing" on Warseer, Ogryns "cost more than 115pts", and the squad size is 3-7. They are confirmed to lack wargear options, but are eligible for Orders.

If I had to guess, I'd say the average points cost will go over 40. Maybe 130 for the first three, 40 for the rest. That'd be consistent with how squads are usually pointscosted.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Well, at least even the most skeptical assessment puts the Ogryns' point cost as slightly lower than that of the Biker Nobz.

Yeah but no one's bringing 20 Ogryn to the table now are they? Not only is that a bad choice as far as cost goes, but you'd be too poor to afford the rest of the Guard models if you did - seriously, thems things is expensive! I have one Ogryn and I can't afford any more than that.

[EDIT]: Seven per squad? Why seven? My BS detector is beginning to flash...

I'd've expected six, really. Most people wont go over five, and six is the maximum you can stuff in a Chimera. There are so many conflicting reports on how much they cost, though, that I just dont know.

EDIT: My latest guess above turned out to be exactly right. 130 for three, plus 40 each. Works out to 210 for five. Goddamnit. For a moment there, I tricked myself into having just a tiny bit of hope that maybe there was some way they weren't going to suck quite as badly. But no, we're scraping the bottom of the barrel here. Thanks a fething lot, Robin Cruddace. It looks like Sisters Repentia and Arcoflagellants have a new serious contender for the biggest pile of grox excrement ever put to paper.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Bignutter wrote:Being able to drop 5 of these bad boys off from a valkyre and nuke just about anything for 100 pts (assuming 16 pts each and about 10pts for a melta gun, 20pts for 2)... that'll be worth it

Try 200+ points when you factor in the Valk, and the fact that doing this will require two FOC slots. Not such a good deal. Besides, such a unit will die instantly after shooting. Ok, that's normal for Stormies and things like them, but I don't know if I want to use Stormies as a suicide Melta unit when they're 16 points each.

I mean, didn't the fact that no one brings Vespid teach them anything?

These troops are nothing like vespid at all. They have three times the number of shots (with orders), better special abilities, the ability to take specialty weapons, longer range, better armor, and have a smaller hit profile. Seriously, its a bad comparison. They are much more analogous to drop pod sternguard which trade up some survivability for the exact same job and being a hell of a lot more expensive.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:I wonder if Orks will win . . .

I remember the BatRep when the Guard Codex was last released. Pete Haines took a foot-slogging Infantry Horde with no HW's in squads and rushed the Orks. LOL!

The edition before that Jervis got himself in a tie against chaos. He claimed he was "too stricken by the beauty of the new plastic Catachans" or something like that.

Just knocked this together using collected rumors including rumored points cost.

command squad + ordnance officer 90
chimera 55

10x veterans 3x meltas 110
chimera 55

10x veterans 3x meltas 110
chimera 55

10x veterans 3x meltas 110
chimera 55

3x leman russ 450

3x leman russ 450

manticore 160

total cost 1750...

6x battle cannons, 1x earthshaker, 1D3 strength 10 ap 4 large blast barrage, 11x heavy bolters 4x multi-lasers, 9x meltaguns that can all shoot out of their firepoint... 11 KP.

That seems pretty powerful of a list. I might have to check it out this weekend.

I wonder if IG will ever get a good CC unit.

Three scoring units!! AH!

You may have fixed the KP issue, but you've just boned yourself in objective missions.

BoxANT wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:New argument!

What Leman Russ configurations are going to be the prime for 5th edition? I'm thinking the punisher is going to be pretty popular. The sheer volume of shots is going to overwhelm power lists (Nob bikers, dual lash, etc).

I think we are still going to be seeing a lot of stock standard LRBT (perhaps even with no sponsons), at 150 points, it's still a great value. Hell even at a 170 it's still not a bad buy and can stand still and unleash a lot of dakka.

Stock Russ. I took a leap of faith about a month ago and bought two Russes in preparation for the new Codex. Assembled them with the bare minimum ( no sponsons, no whistles ) and it seems to have been the right choice, considering these rumours. Pumping excessive amounts of points into a single unit is not the way for Guard.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Three scoring units!! AH!

You may have fixed the KP issue, but you've just boned yourself in objective missions.

I can make it work. I've made it work with other armies with similar survivability (read: eldar and tau)

Its a combination of objective placement, mission type, possible table edge reserves, and conservative play.

Regarding rough riders, from reds8an on warseer:

No on the meltabombs, no on the opt-out for lances. Soz.

Not pissed. It's not as if I just had a couple squads of converted miniatures invalidated. Not at all.

Do we know if H-Vets can Outflank? That might solve a few issues.

Raxmei - Wait 'til you get a whole army of individually converted and customised miniatures invalidated. That's more annoying.

Why would H-Vets be outflanking? That always seemed like more of a RR thing to me. Vets should just be improved rank-and-file troops with nifty options, like Chaos Chosen. Then again, no-one uses Chosen.

I was musing about Stormies to myself.

It's rumored that stormies get "targeters" and that they might allow stormies to reroll misses. In addition, stormies Vet Sgt might be able to issue orders (or at least they should have access to a Vox).
Valk is said to have the "Scout" rule, so on first turn you should be able to land a squad of Stormies virtually anywhere on the battlefield.
If you pick a juicy squad (noise marines, devastators, sternguards, command squad, ect) and deepstrike a 10man squad of stormies that has 2 plasmaguns, use the order to get an extra rapid fire shot...
You have a good chance in taking out an entire 10man squad of MEQ.

I realize that there is a lot of *if* in this, but I think it is something to think about.


And yes, they would be very vulnerable to being shot up, but you can also run a 2nd Valk with normal infantry that can act as a screen.

Amusingly, my collection of Ogryns, split evenly to squads, went from 405 points to 630. Pretty much exactly a 55% increase. No way in heck are their boosted abilities worth any more than 10%, maybe.

ShumaGorath wrote:These troops are nothing like vespid at all. They have three times the number of shots (with orders), better special abilities, the ability to take specialty weapons, longer range, better armor, and have a smaller hit profile. Seriously, its a bad comparison. They are much more analogous to drop pod sternguard which trade up some survivability for the exact same job and being a hell of a lot more expensive.

actually, it might be two according to the latest rumors. the order that gives a third shot is rumored to only be for lasguns according to reds8n and not all rapid fire weapons as previously mentioned. i think it is a fair comparison. the units are not exactly alike but are used in similar roles: deep striking into the enemies zone to wipe out or at least weaken a single important unit before they die.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Why would H-Vets be outflanking? That always seemed like more of a RR thing to me. Vets should just be improved rank-and-file troops with nifty options, like Chaos Chosen. Then again, no-one uses Chosen.

Heh, it's funny that you mention Chosen cause Chosen do get outflanking...

Yeah, infiltrate has been an aspect of "veteran" units since the big black book in 3rd edition.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Three scoring units!! AH!

You may have fixed the KP issue, but you've just boned yourself in objective missions.

Are you serious?

Do you even think that there will even be an opposing army left after like 3 turns? Especially if Shep gets the 1st turn?

Vladsimpaler wrote:Do you even think that there will even be an opposing army left after like 3 turns? Especially if Shep gets the 1st turn?

If each squadron of Russes has to fire at the same target, then yes, I do.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Three scoring units!! AH!

You may have fixed the KP issue, but you've just boned yourself in objective missions.

I have to disagree. I have a list that uses 3 grenadier squads in chimeras as my only troop choices that does quite well.

abbreviated version

hq- 4 plasma & pistol -90
meltavets -225
RR's x10 x3 - 330
3 demolishers, HB/plaz (I.Comms on 2) 565
gendadiers w/ 2 plasma, chimera w/ smoke, ea, ML hhb x3 - 639

1,849 pts/ KP17. kp17 is a botch but I clear the board with this enough to not worry

My problem, and only real complaint, is I run out of points too fast. I might do more Vet squads than I planned because infantry heavy just soaks so many points so fast. I was originally thinking a Chimera platoon and a HW team-based platoon but that is running possibly almost 1000 pts there, and thats just guessing on Platoon Command Squad costs.

Yeah, deployed and used carefully three scoring units can be enough. I only ran three DA squads in my 'Ard Boys list.

Mickhedd wrote:My problem, and only real complaint, is I run out of points too fast.

In a point-based game, that's a pretty big complaint.

Polonius wrote:Yeah, deployed and used carefully three scoring units can be enough. I only ran three DA squads in my 'Ard Boys list.

I'd argue that three squads of T3 5+ save models are a very different beast. If their Chimera is popped on a "6" you're going to lose 1/2 the squad. (And take a pinning check, too.) I'm hoping to make good use of Veterans, and think a mandatory 10-man unit size is a fair trade off for being able to score, but I can't imagine a three squad IG list working. It'll be too easy for your opponent to force the draw.

I'm pretty interested to see that others are coming to some of the same conclusions I am about IG tanks - naked Russ spam at 150 points a piece being my earliest thought about it. And H.B.M.C. made a good point about something I was thinking about last night after I went to bed. I think the Eradicator is going to be the new Hellhound. It costs more, yeah, but it does the anti-cover save trick from better range like the Hellhound used to. Add to that that you've got a helluva lot better armor and I think it's about worth its points. And, as with H.B.M.C., considering I so derided the Eradicator when I first saw it, I'm having to rethink its usefulness now in the light of the Hellhound nerfing.

I'm also thinking though, that the Devil Dog Melta Blast Cannon may also be worth its points, too. A fast tank/heavy armor killer with a blast template? Does not suck.

Recent bit from Warseer about Rough Riders. Lances no longer ignore armor saves. There was something about not getting bonus attacks, but I can't find the quote and I probably missed something about that. Oh, and they still cost exactly as much as before.

This news has made me reconsider my decision to rearm my RR models with lances in accordance with codex requirements.

No armour save ignoring on RR's? Then... what's the point? What would they do? One use Lances that do... what?

Sorry, I don't buy that. That would be too stupid for words if that happened.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Do you even think that there will even be an opposing army left after like 3 turns? Especially if Shep gets the 1st turn?

If each squadron of Russes has to fire at the same target, then yes, I do.

Because from what I'm seeing, you buy them in lots of 3, but they're not in actual squadrons.

If they have to be in squadrons then yes there will be an army left. But as you essentially admit, if the Russes don't need to be in squadrons then there will be death.

(What you should have said is, "Regardless of whether the Russes will be in squadrons or not, there will still be an opposing army", unless, of course, that isn't what you meant to say.)


:edit: Yeah, from what I've heard, Lances don't ignore saves any more. Good thing I decided to not buy those Rough Riders either.

So... Unless RR's now universally have melta guns, are trrops choices that now have motorcycles and can turbo boost or have hellguns and free meltabombs they suck. Of course, those ideas aren't nearly as stupid as nerfing the lance.

::EDIT: An All cavalry list would be tits on a goldfish!::

Raxmei wrote:Recent bit from Warseer about Rough Riders. Lances no longer ignore armor saves. There was something about not getting bonus attacks, but I can't find the quote and I probably missed something about that. Oh, and they still cost exactly as much as before.

This news has made me reconsider my decision to rearm my RR models with lances in accordance with codex requirements.

WHAT WHAT WHAT! My beloved rough riders! They were THE glass hammer of the guard..... I loved my rough riders. If the rumor above is true, I would be very tempted to shove a rough rider lance all the way up the pee pee hole of the guy who wrote this dex. Then ask him if he still thinks they are not armor piercing while he tries to pull it out.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea of RR's not ignoring armour saves. If they can't ignore armour saves, and specifically have a one-shot item that improves their HTH ability, what does it do? Rending?

It can't be Rending? I will call Storm Troopers a good deal and Ogryn a bargain before I accept 11 point RR's that just get a one-shot Rending.

I just can't accept that.

A nerf for RRs is stupid. They should have just taken the god damn horses and guys with idiotic lances out of the sci fi future battle game. That crap didn't work when muskets were around. There are laser canons in this game.

@foil

let me go first with my 5 classic ogryns and 10 new ones. if these rumors are true, this is the most disappointing week 40k-wise in the past 4 months that i've been paying daily attention to IG rumors. i think we'll be seeing alot of tank/skimmer heavy, grunt heavy IG armies without anything other than a paintjob to tell them apart. heck, we should just post the only effective list the codex will allow up on the web and our opponents can access it there. it'll save plenty of trees now that GW is castrating any unit with flavor for the guard.

Kungfuhustler wrote:So... Unless RR's now universally have melta guns, are trrops choices that now have motorcycles and can turbo boost or have hellguns and free meltabombs they suck. Of course, those ideas aren't nearly as stupid as nerfing the lance.

::EDIT: An All cavalry list would be tits on a goldfish!::

Fast Attack, can upgrade two riders with special weapons, are still cavalry, armed with laspistol and ccw by default, sarge has armory access including power weapon, the squad can't buy meltabombs except possibly one from the sergeant's wargear. Lance is still single use and still strikes at S5 and I5, but is no longer a power weapon. There is a special character who gives them Rage, and we all know how useful Rage is.

Am I crazy, or are we down to the bottom of the barrel as far as assault is concerned? The only commonly used assault unit (if you can call it that) that is not yet known to be nerfed is the command squad.

At least they're better than hourmugaunts..

Just when I finish bitz ordering parts to make my custom adeptus mechanicus rough riders, they get nerfed? At least I didn't start on my admech ogryns. On the plus side I not don't have to make a hard choice between rough riders and my GK Termies if rough riders become totally useless.

Just found out what Rough Riders get in return for nerfed lances at the same points cost. Frag and krak grenades. It isn't completely bad. Credit to The Knowing on Warseer.

Raxmei wrote:Just found out what Rough Riders get in return for nerfed lances at the same points cost. Frag and krak grenades. It isn't completely bad. Credit to The Knowing on Warseer.

Hmm, I'm still in the "I don't believe this rumor" camp, but with frag and krak I guess the idea is that we use RRs to attack vehicles, which IMO probably won't work too well. If true, this isn't a great unit.

Wow, these RR and Ogryn rumors are really bad. I dont expect Guard to be a melee oriented army... . but 5th edition is so melee-oriented we need something that can at least hold it's own. And if they can put Lootas in the ork codex they can put SOMETHING melee-competent in the Guard codex. But I'm holding out hope until I can see the whole codex.

As for tanks... I didnt care much for the Punisher really. Sure, 20 shots, whatever, I can do math and know what a 3+ MEQ armor save is. But with the Sgt Armor McDakka tank commander giving BS4... might be worth it. Maybe with x3 HB, pintle heavy stubber, etc. Although the 24" range on the punisher might make that not work.

With the tank commander BS4, I can see Vanquisher cannon, hull lascannon, no sponsons.

Basically, the new tank variants it seems like you want the role of your turret weapon to match the role of your hull weapons. No reason to have a vanquisher with heavy bolters on the hull. Wasteful to have anti-tank sponsons with an anti-infantry turret.

Course all of that is pretty common sense.

I seldom move my x3 bolter/stubber/battlecannon regular russes currently. Aside from ocassionally shifting slightly to get better LOS if a building or such is in the way. So I wonder how the camo netting works, what it will do, if pivoting on the spot to bring bolter sponsons to bear will negate the camo netting, etc.

+++ NEGATIVE COMMENT WARNING +++

No Hunting lances... Why would they do that? WHY?! The unit was the definition of a glass cannon, and thus, it was by definition a balanced unit. It was properly point costed and in competition with other good units for it's FOC slot so most people didn't even spam it like I did. (even if mine were lizardmen)

NERF LIST, FEEL FREE TO ADD TO IT.

Ogryn: 99.9% chance of complete uselessness due to cost.

Rough Riders: 99.9% chance of useless. main weapon gone

Storm Troopers: 75% chance of useless. Cost.

Hellhound: Almost a completely diferent role!

Ratlings: are ratlings. Probably suck too.

Heavy Weapons Teams: 100% NERFED! Easier to kill. multi-wound models suck due to wound allocation. 2 teams side by side on the front line no longer provide cover for one another by putting them on small bases. okay, that was cheaty.

Hardened Veterans: No more 5 man deep strinking teams with 3 plasma guns. Oh, how I will look back on the good ol' days.

Death By Monkeys stating on the internet that he was thinking of H.B.M.C. 'after he went to bed' is a serious misuse of the words "H.M.B.C." and "bed" in the same sentence IMO.

Even though I also agree... you must always use the Microsoft H.M.B.C. Checker to avoid such errors.

Mik

Ivan, Cammo netting basically provides a 3+ save in cover provide you don't move. Cool in some cases, useless in others.

The Good:
Basic troopers (got better higher LD lower price and frags)
Penal Legion (assuming base cost of 50 these guys look like fun
Sentinals (prices got a drop so you can not complain too much)
Stock Russ's (lumbering and squadron make these things a part of the new IG power build)
Manticore's (d3 s10 blasts for every rocket? If you can fire off more than one like the IA one than color me sold)
Hydra's (75 points could be useful against certain armies and builds)
Griffon (75 point str 6 large blasts!)
Vendetta 130 points for three twin linked lascanons troop 12, 12 12 10 and ultra fast.... Yeah I will buy one
Chimera (55 points is a good drop in points)
IG command section (orders and only one VP mean that these guys got a major boost)

Possible Good:
All of the special characters, (no costs yet but looks like some cool builds)
Psycher Choir (could be good need more detail)
Conscripts (need more data)
advisors (look cool, but need more pricing data)
Special weapon squads (look to be cheaper and able to take 3 demo charges)
Vets (8 points a pop, not bad, 10 man squads, expected, can take new orders good)

The Arguable:
HellHounds and Varients (went up in price, lost range, but are now fast..... have seen quotes both ways)

Possible Bad:
Valkerie, why buy one when you can get a vendetta?
Death strike (love the idea by the way, but this is a APOC toy)
Commisars (if they can take fists and where they can go will determine if these guys are all right)
Ratlings (need price and rules)
Heavy Weapon Squads (will need to know how many men in a squad, this may move to GOOD easily if 10 man squad)

Known Bad (even these are not really bad, but over-inflated priced)
Stormies 16pts,
Ogryn 40
Plasma tank 240pts WTF? thats a land raider
Most other Russ varients (over priced)
Most other arty not already listed (over priced)
RoughRiders (lost their teeth)

Updated with new comments and recomendations

Ratlings, if priced properly, will still be good. BS4 sniper rifles are just a decent unit.

Heavy weapon teams lose teir durability against low volume fire, and might be a lot more fragile against S6+, but with adjusted prices they're still fine. Through in platoon drill and I think they're going to be fine.

Vets, if they stay at 8pts like they look to, are not as good as the old suicide vets, but now have access to 55pt Chimeras and are troops, making them a much more tactical part of the list.

i think i'm going to wait until i have 'dex in hand before i laugh, cry or do both at the same time. there's just too much out there that "could be" true, and alot out there that's "WTF?", imho. i'm keeping my eyes on the rumors, but i'm also not going to do any massed ordering or selling based on what's been thrown out there so far.

edit
and doesn't everybody think about HBMC in their bed? i bet Shummy hears footsteps, too ...

As I see it, based on things I own:

good - well-costed for known rules
30-pt walking Ordnance
50-pt Infantry squads
35-pt Sentinels
125-pt Basilisks
<170-pt Russes & Demolishers

okay - probably useful a lot of the time
90-pt triple ML teams
55-pt Chimeras
100-pt 12/12/10 Valks
75-pt Hydra

crap - overpriced to the point of unplayability
35-pt Commissars
40-pt Ogryns
16-pt Storms
170+pt Russes (Punisher, Executioner), Russ' Sponsons
lasgun-only Conscripts

iffy - need to see costs & rules
triple DC SWS
130+ pt Hellhound-type tanks
other Russes

Point 1. If you'll notice in my quote below, you'll see that I was thinking about something after I went to bed (the Eradicator) and H.B.M.C. made a comment about it today.

Death By Monkeys wrote:I'm pretty interested to see that others are coming to some of the same conclusions I am about IG tanks - naked Russ spam at 150 points a piece being my earliest thought about it. And H.B.M.C. made a good point about something I was thinking about last night after I went to bed. I think the Eradicator is going to be the new Hellhound. It costs more, yeah, but it does the anti-cover save trick from better range like the Hellhound used to. Add to that that you've got a helluva lot better armor and I think it's about worth its points. And, as with H.B.M.C., considering I so derided the Eradicator when I first saw it, I'm having to rethink its usefulness now in the light of the Hellhound nerfing.

Point 2. If I was thinking of anyone last night, it would have been H.M.B.C. (as you inadvertently state),



rather than H.B.M.C.

if these are different people a mod needs to fix this. I get all confuzzld when one or the other gets quoted

Kungfuhustler wrote:if these are different people a mod needs to fix this. I get all confuzzld when one or the other gets quoted

I am Her Majesty's Buxom Commissar and all my posts and quotes say as much.

it's easy:
one is a Half Brother something something, the other is a Hot Momma! something something!
hope that clears it up for you.

oh, ok. a while ago it was just letters... I'm slow

What's the status of the humble Techpriest Enginseer?

He'd be even better at his current role of allowing you to buy a cheap Chimera since Chimeras are cheaper now.

Not sure how the shooty version with Heavy Bolter Servitors would fare, and I haven't seen anything rumoured that would make him viable at counter-assault.

I hope you didn't take offence Death By Monkeys... I promise you mate, None was meant

Mik

Kungfuhustler wrote:oh, ok. a while ago it was just letters... I'm slow

Yes, we (the Royal we - as in Admin) got it changed a few days ago. I apologise for any confusion caused.

no pdf yet?

I hate talking in third person, but:

HBMC is a long-standing member of the Dakka community, owner of huge and stupid armies of which virtually 0% are painted, one of the 'old Guard' when it comes to playing Guard, an endless complainer, and one to enjoys entertaining many people on this board.

HMBC is an attention seeker with a great avatar who seems to have an inside source at GW.

And that is all I will say on the matter.

"What's the status of the humble Techpriest Enginseer?"
that's a great question. granted i haven't read every rumor posted, i don't recall hearing anything about "he who fixes".

Asmodai wrote:What's the status of the humble Techpriest Enginseer?

He'd be even better at his current role of allowing you to buy a cheap Chimera since Chimeras are cheaper now.

Not sure how the shooty version with Heavy Bolter Servitors would fare, and I haven't seen anything rumoured that would make him viable at counter-assault.

No news yet, however if the current trend continues expect him to cost 95 points, but Per Shuma he will be worth it becuase he can repair a tank on a 6+, and is not as bad as a biovore.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I hate talking in third person, but:

HBMC is a long-standing member of the Dakka community, owner of huge and stupid armies of which virtually 0% are painted, one of the 'old Guard' when it comes to playing Guard, an endless complainer, and one to enjoys entertaining many people on this board.

HMBC is an attention seeker with a great avatar who seems to have an inside source at GW.

And that is all I will say on the matter.

^ I agree with what he said.

"No news yet, however if the current trend continues expect him to cost 95 points, but Per Shuma he will be worth it becuase he can repair a tank on a 6+, and is not as bad as a biovore."

or Vespid

H.B.M.C. wrote:I hate talking in third person, but:

HBMC is a long-standing member of the Dakka community, owner of huge and stupid armies of which virtually 0% are painted, one of the 'old Guard' when it comes to playing Guard, an endless complainer, and one to enjoys entertaining many people on this board.

HMBC is an attention seeker with a great avatar who seems to have an inside source at GW.

And that is all I will say on the matter.

Do me! Do me now! Then JHDD.

ShumaGorath wrote:Do me! Do me now! Then JHDD.

HA HA HA HA HA HA

Sorry my inner Bevis just exploded

ShumaGorath wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I hate talking in third person, but:

HBMC is a long-standing member of the Dakka community, owner of huge and stupid armies of which virtually 0% are painted, one of the 'old Guard' when it comes to playing Guard, an endless complainer, and one to enjoys entertaining many people on this board.

HMBC is an attention seeker with a great avatar who seems to have an inside source at GW.

And that is all I will say on the matter.

Do me! Do me now! Then JHDD.

That's just wrong.

alarmingrick wrote:"No news yet, however if the current trend continues expect him to cost 95 points, but Per Shuma he will be worth it becuase he can repair a tank on a 6+, and is not as bad as a biovore."

or Vespid

Do I know you? Every one of my posts has pointed out pros and cons. I've specifically said that rough riders are stupid repeatedly, and that ogryns while not awful have no use in an imperial guard force because they fulfill a role that isn't needed or wanted. I've also said the vendetta was too cheap, that I was on the fence about hellhound pricing, and that tank squadrons have pros and cons. I'm also the only one trying to accurately gauge the usefulness of storm troopers, since half this thread just seems to have had "stormies are vespid hurr" tattooed on their brain. Oh wait, you don't read my posts.

some people really ask for it. but few deserve it more!

edit
"Oh wait, you don't read my posts."
sure i do, hence what i just posted!

Raxmei wrote:Am I crazy, or are we down to the bottom of the barrel as far as assault is concerned? The only commonly used assault unit (if you can call it that) that is not yet known to be nerfed is the command squad.

Uh... ? Might be lower.

Oh, and at least it looks like new IG will be able to shoot the living snot out of things to compensate. Unlike the other supposedly 'shooty' army in this game.


Not quite enough here to tempt me to start (or re-start, again) an IG army. Maybe when Commissars become worthwhile again.

I can see fielding LRBT's and Eradicators in Squadrons of 2 and then having Autocannon or Lascannon line units in platoons. Does seem like IG will loose a lot of effective counter-attack units when the Inquisition 'dexes are re-done though.

Isn't IG supposed to be the bottom of the assault barrel? Except tau which are still worse? I mean, they fight robots and supersoldiers and daemons and fungus giants.

They shouldn't be punching them.

The Griffon looks interesting. S6 is a good solid number - wounds T4 on 2+, inflicts instant death on T3 multiwound models, and in a pinch can threaten light armor. Plus it's cheap, 50 points less than the next cheapest pie thrower. I've never experienced the pleasure of launching a multiple barrage so I don't know how good squadronning them might be.

There's a little asterisk on the summary indicating a special rule; hopefully it's a good one and not a bad one.

@ chaplaingrabthar
The other "supposedly shooty" army in the game, tau, can fly freaking circles around the guard. I play with several tournament level tau players on a regular basis. If you can't shoot the snot out of an army to compensate I'd guess you are taking too many battle suits.

@Raxmei
not to mention some of the nice Ammo choices in the IA volume 1!

No, my Rough Riders!

I've tried to stay positive about this Codex, but that just went too far!

Every time a guard player stays positive, GW changes another unit to make it horrible. The nerfs will continue until the morale of IG players everywhere is broken.

But seriously, I want to believe that the new book will be alright, but it gets harder and harder to.

ph34r wrote:Every time a guard player stays positive, GW changes another unit to make it horrible. The nerfs will continue until the morale of IG players everywhere is broken.

But seriously, I want to believe that the new book will be alright, but it gets harder and harder to.

I have every confidence that an infantry/armor gunline will still be a perfectly viable army, even slightly stronger than before. Mechanized infantry also seems to be improved. The core still seems strong and there are enough good options scattered about to make a good army. I just am disappointed that one of the most diverse armies in the 40k setting is having so many previously valid options quashed.

Other than Drop Troopers, what's really been squashed?

Wow. I hate orders. Hate em. They make vox-casters manditory becuse if you fail a ld test to take an order you can't issue any more. Yet another blow to the savings we got on the guardsmen! They sure as sure had better confer the LD of the commanding officer as well.

I believe the rumor was that you only "critical fail" and have to stop issuing orders if you get a double 1 on the ld test. However I agree that voxes will be pretty much mandatory.

ph34r wrote:I believe the rumor was that you only "critical fail" and have to stop issuing orders if you get a double 1 on the ld test. However I agree that voxes will be pretty much mandatory.

Double 6s, you mean. I believe that Double 1s is a "critical success," that allowed you to issue an additional order.

Oh, right, got that mixed up. I never heard about the critical success thing, that is cool.

Maybe I read it somewhere else... I clearly read (although it's still suspect) that if an officer fails then no more. if 2x 6's are rooled the squad does nothing for the turn as well.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:Other than Drop Troopers, what's really been squashed?

Some people liked to mass stormtroopers. You can't get six units of those anymore even if you want to. Having a little something for counterassault was pretty popular, and there were even a few guys crazy enough to run assaulty guard. I know a guy who has both Ogryns and Rough Riders, marvelous conversions both. It's still possible to use both units (unless you converted rough riders without lances) but neither is as competitive as before. If anyone was crazy enough to run with warrior weapons they can't do that anymore. Massed light infantry is gone. That's all I can think of at the moment.

I think the summary i read for orders was something like:

Unit receiving order rolls snake eyes: executes order and can receive another order

Unit receiving order passes leadership: executes order
Unit receiving order fails leadership: unit doesn't execute order, acts normally
Unit receiving order rolls 12: unit does nothing for the turn (confused, I guess)

Glad I never got around to finishing those rough rider conversions.

Drop troopers, ogryns, mass stormtroopers, camo or carapace infantry, rough riders, and commissars seem to be squashed.
That reminds me, do we know anything about Enginseers? They are my favorite "specialist" unit, I am hoping they weathered the storm.

Haven't seen any of the Warseer discussion on Veterans carried over here. They are saying:

Veteran Squads
10 for 80pts. Lasgun (Las Pistol &CCW for Sergeant) or Shotgun, Defensive Grenades
May take 3 special weapons, 2 Vets can form a HW team. May take Camo Cloaks
May purchase a squad speciality for 30pts (this doesn’t change weapon options):
Demolitions – Grants the squad Melta Bombs and 1 demo charge
Reconnaisance – Infiltrate and Move Through Cover
Grenadiers – Carapace Armour, no Camo Cloaks

Also just read that Gunnery Sgt. Harker has Relentless and carries a heavy bolter. I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

Thirty points for upgrades seems like a bit much considering what the cost of weapons will be.

ubermosher wrote:I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

If he bleeds, we can kill him.

Ok, for Vets, that would mean 140 points for an Infiltrating 3 Melta unit. It's about 25 points more than what it is now for no actual gain, and that's assuming that their Meltaguns are 10 points each and not inflated to 15 because of their BS4.

And Guardsmen went down to 4 points each, but Vets stayed at 8? They're not worth twice the fething cost of a Guardsmen without Infiltrate. Oh wait, let me guess, they've got Frags and Kraks as standard, which "makes up for it".

I'll be the first person to say that the 5-man H-Vet Squad w/3 Meltaguns and Drop Troops was abusive (but we used it because we needed it), but a nerf like this is idiotic. 140 points (assumed) for 10 T3 wounds? A 17% price increase for nothing.

Hardened vets do look halfway decent. I wonder why they got bumped out of elites. The organization of IG troops other than infantry platoons is a mystery to me. Is the infantry platoon even going to be compulsory? If it isn't there could be a way to make a backdoor Tanith army or Savlar chem dogs.

Oh, but what does camo cost.

Maybe they'll get targeters or something. Also keep in mind, there's probably a slight cost boost for orders.


I'm guessing they have some sort of special rule or equipment piece to make them more effective for the cost.

I think the fact that both Vets and Heavy Weapon squads are *scoring* units is being overlooked in importance.

I can't tell you how many times I have wished that my HW squads where scoring.


A squad of Vets in a Chimera w/ 3 meltas will run 165 points, not a bad deal imo. There is also a rumor that Vets will be able to issue orders to themselves.
However, I do think the the "upgrade" should of been 20 points instead of 30.





As for the "special rule" for the Griffion, I heard that they will be able to reroll their scatter dice. If that is true, then I will most likely always field a squad of them

ubermosher wrote:Haven't seen any of the Warseer discussion on Veterans carried over here. They are saying:

Veteran Squads
10 for 80pts. Lasgun (Las Pistol &CCW for Sergeant) or Shotgun, Defensive Grenades
May take 3 special weapons, 2 Vets can form a HW team. May take Camo Cloaks
May purchase a squad speciality for 30pts (this doesn’t change weapon options):
Demolitions – Grants the squad Melta Bombs and 1 demo charge
Reconnaisance – Infiltrate and Move Through Cover
Grenadiers – Carapace Armour, no Camo Cloaks

Also just read that Gunnery Sgt. Harker has Relentless and carries a heavy bolter. I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

If the specials are +10 points for Plasma or Melta and the Sergeant can buy a Power Sword at +5 points, I can just use this to field my Kasrkins are at semi-reasonable 135 points for the same squad I have now - and about the same stat-line (albeit no AP5 on the Hellgun). The same squad is currently 131 points. +4 points is not a huge deal - especially since the Chimera gets cheaper.

If they have Manstopper rounds, I can use the Hellguns 'counts as' shotguns and they'll actually be more effective than the current bunch.

Plus, Troops and scoring and all that jazz.

Heavy Weapon squads scoring is nice, though there is still no confirmation on how big the squad is, just rumor.

Im not sure the Vanquisher is dead running some numbers, If the tank commander has +1 to armor pen then thats the best AT per point vs AV14 except for 3x Lascannon AT squad with an order(which is questionable in survivability and vox).

Lord Castellan Mik wrote:I hope you didn't take offence Death By Monkeys... I promise you mate, None was meant

No offense taken, mate. I took it in the humor it was made.

Raxmei wrote:The Griffon looks interesting. S6 is a good solid number - wounds T4 on 2+, inflicts instant death on T3 multiwound models, and in a pinch can threaten light armor. Plus it's cheap, 50 points less than the next cheapest pie thrower. I've never experienced the pleasure of launching a multiple barrage so I don't know how good squadronning them might be.

See, at first glance, I'd tend to agree, but then I start thinking about Meqs. Yeah, S6 AP4 will be solid against 4+ save armies, but there are just too many Meqs out there for me to get really excited about it. I mean, against a good opponent playing Meqs, the most you'll get under a pie plate will be 5 guys - I think I'd rather pay that 50 points and get something with AP that will clear out all 5 rather than only killing 2-3 of them.

ubermosher wrote:Haven't seen any of the Warseer discussion on Veterans carried over here. They are saying:

Veteran Squads
10 for 80pts. Lasgun (Las Pistol &CCW for Sergeant) or Shotgun, Defensive Grenades
May take 3 special weapons, 2 Vets can form a HW team. May take Camo Cloaks
May purchase a squad speciality for 30pts (this doesn’t change weapon options):
Demolitions – Grants the squad Melta Bombs and 1 demo charge
Reconnaisance – Infiltrate and Move Through Cover
Grenadiers – Carapace Armour, no Camo Cloaks

I'd asked Reds8n about the shotgun issue and was pleased when he replied that Vets could take them. Not that they're any more effective than a lasgun. I mean, in a world where you're given a choice of flashlights or pellet guns, for me it comes down to which will look better modeled up - and shotguns always look cooler. I'm also excited to see that I can still take 3 special weapons. Yeah, I can't take my min-sized 3-melta squad, but that's okay. What with the option to Drop them no longer available, I can't decide whether to pay the 55 to get them a Chimera (which I'll now be able to fire all 3 meltas in a drive-by) or Infiltrate them for 30. That marginal cost of 25 points isn't very much...

The other thing about this is that Adeptus Arbites players will finally have a viable way to field their armies now. Almost makes me sad I sold mine to carmachu years ago.

ubermosher wrote:Also just read that Gunnery Sgt. Harker has Relentless and carries a heavy bolter. I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

Hot damn! I was hoping they'd do a play on Blain somehow! "This stuff'll make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me."

I'll probably be running vets in chimeras as troops. maybe even gunline vets w/ carapice will get their chance, I'm glad we have troops choices aside from the frakking infantry platoon, I always hated it being a virtually manditory choice.

Death By Monkeys wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Also just read that Gunnery Sgt. Harker has Relentless and carries a heavy bolter. I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

Hot damn! I was hoping they'd do a play on Blain somehow! "This stuff'll make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me."

Harker just became mandatory for cool points

Kungfuhustler wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Also just read that Gunnery Sgt. Harker has Relentless and carries a heavy bolter. I wonder if he's got time to bleed?

Hot damn! I was hoping they'd do a play on Blain somehow! "This stuff'll make you a goddamn sexual Tyrannosaurus, just like me."

Harker just became mandatory for cool points

QFT. Looks like I'ma gonna have to make my Vets Catachans after all. "Son of a bitch is dug in there like an Alabama tick!" I'd have to model him with a big wad of chaw in his cheek.

Hmm... hadn't considered the scoring part of HW teams. That's an... interesting dynamic. Certainly makes them worth a KP IMO (absurdity of the KP system in general notwithstanding).

Death By Monkeys - Much like how we viewed the Eradicator before the rules for the Nerfhound became apparent, I hold the same views for the relationship between the Griffon and the Colossus.

Now I love the Griffon, always have. I've got a pair of them, and in bigger games I usually put them with my Bombard as a nice 'Heavy Mortar Battery'. They've always been wonderful cheap fire support, and the S6 AP4 has carried the day for me a few times. That's slightly anecdotal, but my point is that the Griffon isn't a bad buy. It's cheap enough to not be a drag if you end up against the wrong target types, and it's still a decent trouble-shooter for hitting things you can't see.

That said, if the Griffon is just S6 AP4 and nothing more, then the Colossus makes the Griffon redundant because you might as well have the AP3 for a few more points.

But, again, that said, if the Griffon ignores cover saves, things shift back in favour of the Griffon and make the Colossus' price tag a waste of time. If both ignore cover saves, or only the Colossus does, then it's academic of course.

BYE

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I can see fielding LRBT's and Eradicators in Squadrons of 2

and then having Autocannon or Lascannon line units in platoons.

I agree that Russ Squadrons should be paired for best effect with direct-fire Ordnance.

I think Chimeras are going to be the best platform for single Autocannon, with Sentinels running a close second. But Sentinels can take better guns, whereas Chimeras can't.

I think Platoons should seriously consider MLs. Especially if planning to merge up. Massed ML fire is OK when firing Frag, whereas massed Lascannon / Autocannon for Anti-Tank probably isn't so good because it probably wastes shots.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

chaplaingrabthar wrote:I can see fielding LRBT's and Eradicators in Squadrons of 2

and then having Autocannon or Lascannon line units in platoons.

I agree that Russ Squadrons should be paired for best effect with direct-fire Ordnance.

I think Chimeras are going to be the best platform for single Autocannon, with Sentinels running a close second. But Sentinels can take better guns, whereas Chimeras can't.

I think Platoons should seriously consider MLs. Especially if planning to merge up. Massed ML fire is OK when firing Frag, whereas massed Lascannon / Autocannon for Anti-Tank probably isn't so good because it probably wastes shots.

If we have to choose between 10 point Autocannons and 15 point Missile Launchers, I am going to have a hard time *ever* fielding Missile Launchers...
Honestly, I don't know if I will even take HW in Infantry Squads.


Personally, assuming we get an order that adds +1 AV pen, I plan on taking 2 HW squads of triple Lascannons and parking them near my HQ. Six Str10 shots a turn will go a long way against enemy armor.


I just wish the order that gave TL *and* +1 AV pen was true That would make me the happiest guardsman.


As for Sentinels, i'm either going to field 35pt multilasers or heavy sentinels with PC (assuming they're not over 65 points, which judging by the trend, they will be...).

BoxANT wrote:If we have to choose between 10 point Autocannons and 15 point Missile Launchers, I am going to have a hard time *ever* fielding Missile Launchers...

My thoughts exactly. Autocannons were better when they had the same cost as ML's. But five points less? Easily the best weapon the Guard can get.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BoxANT wrote:If we have to choose between 10 point Autocannons and 15 point Missile Launchers, I am going to have a hard time *ever* fielding Missile Launchers...

My thoughts exactly. Autocannons were better when they had the same cost as ML's. But five points less? Easily the best weapon the Guard can get.

And considering that a HW squad can get 3 autocannons for 75 points.

Give them the TL order and they could completely destroy light armor or put a lot of wounds on Monsters.

Give them S8 and they can threaten even AV14.


This codex is going to the all about Autocannons, and perhaps even (gasp) Grenade Launchers.
A 65 point GL/AC squad might is actually looking pretty nice (or perhaps Flamer/AC for the hell of it).

I think I'll be saving my Plasma for SWS, so I can maximize the the effect of the extra short order (again, assuming it effects plasma...).
Or perhaps a few Plasmaguns in command squads w/ a medic (FNP) would be nice...

BoxANT wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I think Platoons should seriously consider MLs.

If we have to choose between 10 point Autocannons and 15 point Missile Launchers, I am going to have a hard time *ever* fielding Missile Launchers...

What?

Crap.

MLs are going to cost more tha Autocannon?!?

ML and Autocannon are nearly identical in effectiveness, they should cost the same at +10.

It seems to me with Guardmen are getting screwed on the Heavy and Special weapons costs that GW might have just have left Guardsmen alone...

I never thought I'd wish I wasn't getting a new codex, but I am. I don't want an army of a bunch of infantry platoons, Orders or not, or an obscene amount of tanks. I'd be okay with fielding the underpowered doctrine mess for another few years.

lol. I traded six ML teams for a ST squad a few weeks ago. Individually based, standing ML squads I made from my leftover junk on the HW sprue... come to think of it the ML stuff is the only junk on that sprue.

For what it's worth, I put up another thread for what should be done with Ogryns.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/233863.page

I don't see how guardsmen are getting "screwed" in regards to HW/SW cost. *Unless* Plasmaguns are NOT effected by orders, then ya, we got screwed in that regards.

Autocannons *dropped* to 10points, are the same cost as heavy bolters! That is a buff no matter how you slice it.

Meltaguns are the same, GL and Flamers dropped a few points and Lascannons HW squads are 5 (woohoo) points lower (but can be effected by orders).

I can see various layouts for infantry squads.
55 flamer
65 PG
65 GL/AC
75 PG/AC

I however, do not see the point in Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers.

Heavy Bolters give you more hits, therefore more wounds, therefore more chances for your opponent to fail a save. With all the cover floating around in 5th Ed quantity over quality of often the order of the day.

And it's never a choice between Heavy Bolters or Autocannons because the two are designed to do different things. HB trumps the Missile Launcher because its more accurate and gets more hits in. Autocannon trumps the Missile Launcher because it does everything better than the Missile Launcher, except AV13 where they are equal. The Autocannon and Heavy Bolter don't trump one another because neither is designed to do what the other can do.

I think that last sentence made sense...

Yes, HB is better against infantry, but AC can threaten a much wider variety of targets and has longer range.

An infantry squad with an AC can shoot at incoming transports, shoot the infantry that come out of aforementioned transports, and shoot at the dread that deepstrikes right next to them. And it can do all these things rather effectively. Combined with good Order usage, and I think the the versatility of the AC at 10 points is hard to beat.

the range of the autocannon, 48", is also priceless. I have popped many a rhino full of jerks with power armor on turn 1. Missle launchers just miss too often and when leveled against troops their template is decidedly lacking. They are right up there with G/L and mortars in my book. I may change my mind on mortars with this new "choir" but I doubt it.

All I want to do with the "choir" is drop Fateweavers Ld to 2, and shoot him with a couple multilasers and laugh

First of all, I do not see any reason why massed Russ squadrons would be an über unit. Of course AV 14 is tough - against shooting. The first Deffkopta or similar to appear from an outflank maneouvre though will punch two or even three to kingdom come.

Shep wrote:Just knocked this together using collected rumors including rumored points cost.
...
That seems pretty powerful of a list. I might have to check it out this weekend.

I know it has been said already but it IS too light on troops, and despite the BS 4 meltas, probably too light against multiple 2+ save types. You're risking your scoring units to kill those threats because I doubt that 6 battlecannon will do the trick. Even a single Terminator left standing (or a single wound left on a Wingrant) and your troops are an endangered species. You cannot combine front line killer units with scoring units that have to be protected.

ShumaGorath wrote:Isn't IG supposed to be the bottom of the assault barrel?

Sure, but as has been pointed out already, armies that are traditionally considered assaulty do have very decent shooty units (dakkfex, lootas).

Kungfuhustler wrote:@ chaplaingrabthar
The other "supposedly shooty" army in the game, tau, can fly freaking circles around the guard.

If we leave you with some room to fly to, perhaps. Not that it does you any good whether you are at point A or B - we can see you either way.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
See, at first glance, I'd tend to agree, but then I start thinking about Meqs. Yeah, S6 AP4 will be solid against 4+ save armies, but there are just too many Meqs out there for me to get really excited about it. I mean, against a good opponent playing Meqs, the most you'll get under a pie plate will be 5 guys - I think I'd rather pay that 50 points and get something with AP that will clear out all 5 rather than only killing 2-3 of them.

Taking Griffons of course assumes you already have something to deal with MEQ's in your list. As you say yourself, they are quite decent against hordes, and surely you're not fighting nothing but MEQ's. Look at it this way: I'd rather pay those 25 points over a Basilisk and get two S6 blasts that are not only a multiple barrage for a possible 10 hits on 5 models but also rumoured to be able to re-roll scatter. If those marines happen to be in area terrain, the Colossus' advantage is more or less a moot point.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I think Platoons should seriously consider MLs. Especially if planning to merge up. Massed ML fire is OK when firing Frag, whereas massed Lascannon / Autocannon for Anti-Tank probably isn't so good because it probably wastes shots.

Massed autocannon fire is decent enough, and so is massed lascannon fire. Ever attacked a Falcon with an AC-FSS or a Land Raider with an LC-ATSS? It's hardly overkill. Yes, the ML obviously pays for its flexibility.

I think that merging squads must be a consideration when building a list. What about an "assault" platoon of 3-4 squads with specials only? Let's say we merge two squads with melta, and two with flamers or heck, even GL for that price, add a commissar with PF to both 20 strong units, and add the command squad to wherever we see fit. Round out with a stationary platoon with a few support squads as a firebase, and I think it could work quite well.

BoxANT wrote:All I want to do with the "choir" is drop Fateweavers Ld to 2, and shoot him with a couple multilasers and laugh

Oh, priceless! Let me do that and die a happy man!

Kungfuhustler wrote:if these are different people a mod needs to fix this. I get all confuzzld when one or the other gets quoted

They are different. I blame the Clinton White House for this fiasco.

I wonder if Commissar Ibram Gaunt will be in the new dex. Haven't seen his name pop up, though I can't see why they would just drop him and yet keep Sly Marbo. Sly Marbo? Really? C'mon man!

Better Marbo than that got Gaunt.

Something occured to me today that hadn't before: Vets are now scoring. Given that they can issue themselves orders it seems, that opens up a nifty idea.

Say you have 2 valks in a squad and one holds Vets with Melta guns, and the other holds ST with plasma (or whatever). They would make a really interesting group to zip back behind your opponant's lines to drop next to an objective, an annoying tank or a Devastator type squad.

Objective: pop out, hose unit holding objective with vets with rapid fire order, then hose with Stormtroopers using the same. If the unit holding isn't dead, it is probably darn close. This leaves your opponant with a tough decision: kill the STs who will likely wipe out the holding unit next turn, or kill the vets who will capture the objective if the holding unit dies. Vets and stormies can also get a 2+ cover or so based on orders, and rally the next turn to shoot. This could make for a really horrific unit in the backfield.

However, one heavy flamer or the like will ruin your day, of course. Still, might be a fun unit to have in your back pocket for turn 4.

Has anyone had any luck strolling Sentinels with autocannons on from a short table edge to double tap tank side armor? Do you think this might be viable in the new rules set?

Tank: Vets pop out, pop the twin linked order (if possible) and vape tank with 3x melta. Same with STs on Devastators using rapid fire order. Obvious, but scary.

BoxANT wrote:Give them S8 and they can threaten even AV14.

Am I the only one that thinks that S8 is practically useless vs AV14? If AV14 is a problem, you need lascannons or a Vanq/Demolisher, all of which are better AT for the points. I am imagining what sort of AT you would need against another IG or any list with 3x AV14 transports.

Plus until someone confirms that heavy weapon squads are 10 men, you would need a LD check at LD7 to give the squad an order.

I really think the russ and demolisher were over priced for 5th ed. Sure, cannons are cool but armor 10/11 is pure trash when they are being assaulted in turn 2-3. Now we get rules that make them more shooty but ignore the obvious weakness of the units. a rear value of 12 would have been better than lumbering beheamouth.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:I think that merging squads must be a consideration when building a list. What about an "assault" platoon of 3-4 squads with specials only? Let's say we merge two squads with melta, and two with flamers or heck, even GL for that price, add a commissar with PF to both 20 strong units, and add the command squad to wherever we see fit. Round out with a stationary platoon with a few support squads as a firebase, and I think it could work quite well.

I wonder when you can join and split platoons with these rules...2 SWS squads with 3 Meltas each, joined up in a Valk to delivery them to go tank killing. Granted, 6 meltas is overkill for tank killing when you can only fire on one target or the other, but if you can split after you drop, back to 2 units of 3 meltas each behind enemy lines could be useful. Or give them 3 Plasma each and go marine hunting. Welcome back, plasma spam!

Pretty sure you only merge infantry squads, and its at deployment, you can't merge/split it during the game.

Mm. That's what I thought. Still, a 6-plasma gun squad wouldn't suck vs. marines.

Hmm, some thoughts:

If the heavy weapon prices are are really HB/AC: 10, ML:15, LC:20 than expect eBay to be flooded with Missile Launcher teams. As a unit that's not even that good in apocolypse (where it's flexibility doesn't really help), I can't see too much reason to field it. Now, Autocannons and Lascannons will rule the day.

I know that HBMC holds that HBs and ACs do different things, but for the same price the AC does more things than the HB, and can do almost everything the HB can to make the discussion pretty silly. The way I see it, if we cant get ACs on chimeras, then infantry squads will probably be half AC, half LC. There will be plenty of HBs on russes, chimeras, etc, and even lasguns do the job of HBs.

I've changed my mind on Chimeras. 55pts with ML/HB and AV 12 is simply a good buy, especially if the fire port thing is true.

While Ogryn and RR nerfs are bummers, it's important to remember that you dont' need HtH counter assault in 5th edition: a chimera full of flamers does the job as well.

One nice aspect of the LRBT squadrons is that it allows for the lower priced, but non-AP3 tanks to shine. Things like Griffons are great, but when competing for 3 heavy support slots with LRBTs lost out a lot of the time. Now, you can take them and still spam russes.

My current take on this codex is cautious optimism. I think that as a player with a "IG is about men and guns and tanks" mentality, I'm well suited to prosper with it. I have 28 rough riders and 48 storm troopers and 5 ogryn that may not see the table much in competitive games, but the core of my army, the platoons and tanks look to be pretty good.

In general and as a whole, I'm somewhat satisfied. I suspect I will make use of Veterans (quite possibly with the Grenadiers option) and Penal squads (a no-brainer for someone who runs a Penal regiment army).

I'm somewhat concerned over Strom Troopers not being good enough, but in my experience, a unit that wins the game is worth whatever it cost to field in that game. And the Valkyrie's power to reach out and touch someone cannot be overstated, especially compared to the rather un-energetic Imperial Guard army as a whole.

And say what you like about their points cost, at least Ogryns are durable now. I will be fielding them in the future, probably four or five at 1000pts, possibly with a commissar. For Apocalypse, I'll pull out all the stops and take the 290-point maximum squad, with whatever crazy IC I can find. Probably Commissar Yarrick.

So how's this for a curve ball: 2 separate posters who seem to have seen the codex say Platoon HQ's can also merge with Infantry squads. Since a Platoon HQ has a FNP medic...

FNP Zerg IG.

Great! We've named our first archetype a month before release!

ubermosher wrote:FNP Zerg IG.

It'll help against Heavy Bolters, Bolters, and Pulse Rifles at least, right?

I buy that rumor, if only because I don't think it's that strong. I mean, how often do IG players lose squads in shooting? The dangerous time for guard is getting run down in combat, not getting shot.

I think I remember someone saying you can't merge CHQs with Squads, Squads are the ONLY thing that can be merged IIRC.

poor poor rough riders . I was very optimistic up till the death of the hunting lance, hopefully this rumor proves false.

Dexy wrote:I think I remember someone saying you can't merge CHQs with Squads, Squads are the ONLY thing that can be merged IIRC.

Whole buncha rumours seem to say that the Platoon HQs can be merged, and can buy medics as well.

I'm sure there's some sort of caveat for the medi-pack though, to prevent 54 FNP Guardsmen...

On a side note, can you imagine this unit going to ground with the Order that gives them +1 to their cover save whilst in a building? Hardest unit to crack... EVER!

Such a bad tactic, but it'd be so much fun to watch someone tear their hair out trying to kill measly little guardsmen.

Let's look at a couple squad builds:

10 IG w/ Las/Plas
- as-is 60+25+10 = 95 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+20+15 = 85
10 pts saved, which is a decent trade for losing Deep Strike.

10 IG w/ ML/Plas
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+15+15 = 80
5 pts saved, which is definitely not worth losing Deep Strike.


Now look at GW's newly-preferred build:

10 IG w/ AC/Melta
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+10+10 = 70
a whopping 15 pts saved... Nuff said.

Spiking Plasma by 5 pts (for no good reason), and giving 5 pts back on Autocannon makes the new default build very obvious.

Good analysis. Are grenade launchers 8 pts still, or do they go up to 10pts?

The spike in plasma makes sense if the squads can triple tap with orders. If not, I really don't get it, but I think it makes sense that a plasma is better than melta for IG.

it's really only affects small arms fire for the guard to have FNP. all heavy weapons except the heavy bolter will ignore the rule since they're str 6 and so will most if not all ordnance pie plates (i'm not sure on the strength of the whirlwind). i see some uses for fielding a full amoeba platoon with the valhallan commander that gives you repeating conscripts. the main squad of regular guardsmen goes after the enemies objectives while the heavy weapons and revolving door conscripts protect the objective in your deployment zone (conviently right next to your board edge!).

Why would you even bother with a Melta in the line squad? 6" Useful range means it's never going to fire in a game.

I think I saw that GLs are now 5 points. Might be a better option in line platoons now....plasma is too expensive, melta too short ranged...GL has range and moderate strength.

There's a rumored special rule for the Colossus that it can only fire indirectly. If true, the stupid complaints that the Basilisk is worthless because it lost the direct fire mode actually apply to the Colossus.

I think plasma will still have a place in line squads if you're running Lascannons - particularly if you can triple-tap with them. But I agree that meltas have no place in a line squad. Now, AC with GL? That might actually be useful with the +1 S order.

I kind of like the idea of triple tapping plasma. A one in two chance of overheating and killing yourself for mistreating the gun is fluffy and would be effective.

If that's true, than AC/GL now runs only 65pts, which honestly is a pretty good price for those weapons. I'd rather GLs were two shots and 10pts, but that's a good buy. Throw in a chimera, and you've got 120pts worth of anti-transport goodness.

ubermosher wrote:So how's this for a curve ball: 2 separate posters who seem to have seen the codex say Platoon HQ's can also merge with Infantry squads. Since a Platoon HQ has a FNP medic...

FNP Zerg IG.

This can't, or should not, be true unless a medic is 100 points. Guardsmen should not be amongst the most durable troops in 40k if not the most durable. Just throw in a comissar to give them stubborn & a power-fist and a infantry platoon can stand up to if not spank marines in CC. think about it! a 5+ save followed by a 4+ save in CC?! I will admit that it seems logical that 10 marines should not be able to stand against 45 guardsmen in CC but in game terms this is ridiculous.

ShumaGorath wrote:I kind of like the idea of triple tapping plasma. A one in two chance of overheating and killing yourself for mistreating the gun is fluffy and would be effective.

Somebody's going to ninja me on this, but that's not the way 'Get's Hot!' works anymore. Only on rolls of a 1 - doesn't matter how many shots you fire anymore.

Kungfuhustler wrote:

ubermosher wrote:So how's this for a curve ball: 2 separate posters who seem to have seen the codex say Platoon HQ's can also merge with Infantry squads. Since a Platoon HQ has a FNP medic...

FNP Zerg IG.

This can't, or should not, be true unless a medic is 100 points. Guardsmen should not be amongst the most durable troops in 40k if not the most durable. Just throw in a comissar to give them stubborn & a power-fist and a infantry platoon can stand up to if not spank marines in CC. think about it! a 5+ save followed by a 4+ save in CC?! I will admit that it seems logical that 10 marines should not be able to stand against 45 guardsmen in CC but in game terms this is ridiculous.

Even at a bare minimum, that unit would cost what, 300pts? And that's before you add any heavy/special weapons? Why shouldn't that unit be able to go toe to toe with 200pts worth of tactical marines?

JohnHwangDD wrote:Let's look at a couple squad builds:

10 IG w/ Las/Plas
- as-is 60+25+10 = 95 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+20+15 = 85
10 pts saved, which is a decent trade for losing Deep Strike.

10 IG w/ ML/Plas
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+15+15 = 80
5 pts saved, which is definitely not worth losing Deep Strike.


Now look at GW's newly-preferred build:

10 IG w/ AC/Melta
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+10+10 = 70
a whopping 15 pts saved... Nuff said.

Spiking Plasma by 5 pts (for no good reason), and giving 5 pts back on Autocannon makes the new default build very obvious.

This is why I can't, for the life of me, believe that Plasma went up 5 pts AND doesn't benefit from Double Tap orders. It really does seem cost prohibitive, and it almost completely negates the savings from the cheaper troops. And I need those savings to pay for big boy toys, dambit. In addition to this, everything but the Melta and ML go down in price, making the Plasma pill even harder to swallow. Some of my squads will be staying the same price, even! Absurdity!

Hrm. I wonder how viable that '9 russ' list really is...

Death By Monkeys wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I kind of like the idea of triple tapping plasma. A one in two chance of overheating and killing yourself for mistreating the gun is fluffy and would be effective.

Somebody's going to ninja me on this, but that's not the way 'Get's Hot!' works anymore. Only on rolls of a 1 - doesn't matter how many shots you fire anymore.

1/6 chance of rolling a 1 has a 50% chance of happening when you roll 3 Dice.

Wehrkind wrote:Something occured to me today that hadn't before: Vets are now scoring. Given that they can issue themselves orders it seems, that opens up a nifty idea.

Say you have 2 valks in a squad and one holds Vets with Melta guns, and the other holds ST with plasma (or whatever). They would make a really interesting group to zip back behind your opponant's lines to drop next to an objective, an annoying tank or a Devastator type squad.

Objective: pop out, hose unit holding objective with vets with rapid fire order, then hose with Stormtroopers using the same. If the unit holding isn't dead, it is probably darn close. This leaves your opponant with a tough decision: kill the STs who will likely wipe out the holding unit next turn, or kill the vets who will capture the objective if the holding unit dies. Vets and stormies can also get a 2+ cover or so based on orders, and rally the next turn to shoot. This could make for a really horrific unit in the backfield.

However, one heavy flamer or the like will ruin your day, of course. Still, might be a fun unit to have in your back pocket for turn 4.

Has anyone had any luck strolling Sentinels with autocannons on from a short table edge to double tap tank side armor? Do you think this might be viable in the new rules set?

Tank: Vets pop out, pop the twin linked order (if possible) and vape tank with 3x melta. Same with STs on Devastators using rapid fire order. Obvious, but scary.

Good catch, I've had that very thought for the past couple of days and is why I've been defending the Stormies.

I'd also like to add that according to BoLS that the Aerial assault special ability allows to re-roll deepstrike AND(emphasis mine) to grav chute out of the valks. It seems to imply that you don't have to use the valks for deepstrike but rather that it exists outside of and is in addition to the special rules gained by being mounted in a wave serp..Cough..Valkerie.

What GW did was to answer our request to make stormies distinctive and to storm. (I still remember those proposed discussions HMBC and JHDD, and Frazz called it right early on with the S3 AP3 .) They now function as lategame objective denial units that can get there by a variety of means and clense the objective for the vets to hold.

The only thing that would make be even cooler was if there were an open-topped vehicle that the stormies, the Ogryns, and/or the Vets could take.

edit for spelling

AlexCage wrote:
Hrm. I wonder how viable that '9 russ' list really is...

9 naked Russes is only 1350 points.

Dexy wrote:

Death By Monkeys wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I kind of like the idea of triple tapping plasma. A one in two chance of overheating and killing yourself for mistreating the gun is fluffy and would be effective.

Somebody's going to ninja me on this, but that's not the way 'Get's Hot!' works anymore. Only on rolls of a 1 - doesn't matter how many shots you fire anymore.

1/6 chance of rolling a 1 has a 50% chance of happening when you roll 3 Dice.

Doh. Yeah, brainfart on the math. Thanks.

I was thinking about it, and AC/melta may be a nice combo.

Coming in at 70 points it's not too expensive, gives you a wide variety of tools (can handle almost anything).

Yes, the weapons do not "compliment" each other, but i'm been thinking about the role of infantry as more "take on all comers" rather than specialists... hmmm.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Let's look at a couple squad builds:

10 IG w/ Las/Plas
- as-is 60+25+10 = 95 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+20+15 = 85
10 pts saved, which is a decent trade for losing Deep Strike.

10 IG w/ ML/Plas
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+15+15 = 80
5 pts saved, which is definitely not worth losing Deep Strike.


Now look at GW's newly-preferred build:

10 IG w/ AC/Melta
- as-is 60+15+10 = 85 (with "FREE" Deep Strike)
- to-be 50+10+10 = 70
a whopping 15 pts saved... Nuff said.

Spiking Plasma by 5 pts (for no good reason), and giving 5 pts back on Autocannon makes the new default build very obvious.

While I agree the weapon cost changes were a big knee jerk reaction, I don't really believe we ever should have had Deep Strike for free. Nothing that significant should be for free and it certainly was more significant than some of the options we did have to pay points for. But as I was saying increasing the cost of one weapon would have been enough to get the sort of balance they wanted but dropping and raising different weapons creates this disproportional divide between the cost of weapons. The only thing I think you forgot to consider in the new cost is some of the new abilities, some I'd say are trade offs, but some I say are purely positive abilities and for even footed comparison are free points.

aka_mythos wrote:While I agree the weapon cost changes were a big knee jerk reaction, I don't really believe we ever should have had Deep Strike for free. Nothing that significant should be for free and it certainly was more significant than some of the options we did have to pay points for.

I think this is a really significant point. Just because GW made the mistake of giving IG free drop troops (which still ultimately didn't keep the list from sucking, but was one of the few things going for it) doesn't mean that we as players should expect that as a precedent or baseline.

Don't forget that drop troops was included mostly as a nod to the old Elysian Drop Troops lists that was in WD around the time of Armageddon. The doctirnes system was designed to allow most of the rules from those lists to be replicated, and I think drop troops made it in with extensive playtesting with regards to vets and command squads.

So, while it was a mistake, it was a mistake on the order of the Old Iron Warrios lists: trying to replicate a previously balanced list with a global rule that proved to be exploitable.

Polonius wrote: and I think drop troops made it in with extensive playtesting with regards to vets and command squads.

I assume you mean *without* extensive playtesting. The ability to drop suicide squads was worth a lot more than many of the crappy doctrines that you had to pay for.

I was not surprised at all that they removed the free ability to drop IG squads in.

Ozymandias wrote:

Polonius wrote: and I think drop troops made it in with extensive playtesting with regards to vets and command squads.

I assume you mean *without* extensive playtesting. The ability to drop suicide squads was worth a lot more than many of the crappy doctrines that you had to pay for.

I was not surprised at all that they removed the free ability to drop IG squads in.

That is correct, I edited my previous post.

H.B.M.C. wrote:...That said, if the Griffon is just S6 AP4 and nothing more, then the Colossus makes the Griffon redundant because you might as well have the AP3 for a few more points.

But, again, that said, if the Griffon ignores cover saves, things shift back in favour of the Griffon and make the Colossus' price tag a waste of time. If both ignore cover saves, or only the Colossus does, then it's academic of course.

BYE

From what I have heard the Colossus is fluffwise an upgraded Griffon, which is why its so similar. For me the big turn off to the Colossus is the min range of 24". If you set it up in a corner, it can't touch 25-30% of the average table, in the middle of your deployment zone that jumps to 40-45%. The Colossus is a bit confusing it has to fire indirect, but isn't a barrage, so fewer scatter dice but you still need line of sight? I see the main thing of the Griffon its the economy model of the Colossus, being half the cost.

Polonius wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:

ubermosher wrote:So how's this for a curve ball: 2 separate posters who seem to have seen the codex say Platoon HQ's can also merge with Infantry squads. Since a Platoon HQ has a FNP medic...

FNP Zerg IG.

This can't, or should not, be true unless a medic is 100 points. Guardsmen should not be amongst the most durable troops in 40k if not the most durable. Just throw in a comissar to give them stubborn & a power-fist and a infantry platoon can stand up to if not spank marines in CC. think about it! a 5+ save followed by a 4+ save in CC?! I will admit that it seems logical that 10 marines should not be able to stand against 45 guardsmen in CC but in game terms this is ridiculous.

Even at a bare minimum, that unit would cost what, 300pts? And that's before you add any heavy/special weapons? Why shouldn't that unit be able to go toe to toe with 200pts worth of tactical marines?

yeah, so about 400 points with fuly upgraded weapons and such. They would shoot the crap out of the enemy all the way across the table, rapid fire at close range and win cc 9/10 times. That is a 400 pt troops choice If I ever saw one.

not to mention it's double tapping lascannons across the board to killi tanks, and the rapid fire is plasma to kill terminators. oh, and they can go to ground for a 2+ save and get back up acting normally the next turn!!!

aka_mythos wrote: From what I have heard the Colossus is fluffwise an upgraded Griffon, which is why its so similar. For me the big turn off to the Colossus is the min range of 24". If you set it up in a corner, it can't touch 25-30% of the average table, in the middle of your deployment zone that jumps to 40-45%. The Colossus is a bit confusing it has to fire indirect, but isn't a barrage, so fewer scatter dice but you still need line of sight? I see the main thing of the Griffon its the economy model of the Colossus, being half the cost.

I still stand by what I said in the earlier threads. Some of the units were never meant for a regular 40K game. They are for Apoc games and before anyone says then why not leave them for apoc, shuush. They are saving us money by not making us buy yet another expansion module.

When you examine points costs and base stats it becomes clear as to which units are intended for Apoc as the the fact that they are a complete waste of points in a regular 40K game.

The Collossus and Punisher are the first 2 that come to mind. I know everyone loves them but,I feel IMO, Basilisks really should be for Apoc games also.

Edit: spelling

the amoeba squad may bring new definition to line squads, with 55 guys in one unit it could easily "line up" and hold 3 objectives

On the minus side, such a unit, 40+ infantry models in 2" coherency to each other, would be an unmissable target for artillery of all sorts.

aka_mythos wrote:The Colossus is a bit confusing it has to fire indirect, but isn't a barrage, so fewer scatter dice but you still need line of sight? I see the main thing of the Griffon its the economy model of the Colossus, being half the cost.

Who said it wasn't a barrage? It has the barrage tag on the French summary.
Griffon has a much more useful minimum range than Colossus and *might* retain the direct fire option, though that asterisk is looking a mite ominous. Aside from that, yeah it's a cheap gun.

Wehrkind wrote:Say you have 2 valks in a squad and one holds Vets with Melta guns, and the other holds ST with plasma (or whatever).

2 Valks = 200+ pts
10 Vets w/ 3 Meltas = 110 pts
10 storms w/ 2 Plasma = 190 pts

You are paying 500 pts to deliver *1* Scoring Unit.

That doesn't seem wrong or foolish to you?

I'd suggest:
2x Mech IG squads = 250 pts
2x 5 Mech ISTs with Plasma = 250 pts

That's 4 Chimeras, with 4x Scoring units, having a total of 40 Wounds wrapped in armor. An extra turn to cover the 24", but far tougher to shift, IMO.
____

focusedfire wrote:
What GW did was to answer our request to make stormies distinctive and to storm. (I still remember those proposed discussions HMBC and JHDD, and Frazz called it right early on with the S3 AP3 .)

The only thing that would make be even cooler was if there were an open-topped vehicle that the stormies, the Ogryns, and/or the Vets could take.

Yes, Stormies are distinctive. But so badly-priced.

Yeah, something completely exotic. Like, say, a FW Salamander Transport?
____

aka_mythos wrote:While I agree the weapon cost changes were a big knee jerk reaction, I don't really believe we ever should have had Deep Strike for free.

Guard shouldn't have costed 60 pts per squad, either. As I see it, we paid 10 to 15 pts per squad for Deep Strike bundled into a squad that was worth 45 or 50 pts.

Raxmei wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Colossus is a bit confusing it has to fire indirect, but isn't a barrage, so fewer scatter dice but you still need line of sight? I see the main thing of the Griffon its the economy model of the Colossus, being half the cost.

Who said it wasn't a barrage? It has the barrage tag on the French summary.
Griffon has a much more useful minimum range than Colossus and *might* retain the direct fire option, though that asterisk is looking a mite ominous. Aside from that, yeah it's a cheap gun.

You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly. Once a unit has penetrated your minimum range, you can move 6", move any moveable LOS blocking models out of the way, and then unload, with better accuracy to boot.

Agamemnon2 wrote:On the minus side, such a unit, 40+ infantry models in 2" coherency to each other, would be an unmissable target for artillery of all sorts.

Yeah, so your enemy hits 6 or 7 or 8 models with each shot. So what? Even outside of cover you're probalby only losing 5 or so each shot, in cover it's 3 or less. at 45 models you need to do 12 wounds to even trigger a moral test.

Shep wrote:You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly.

Where is this, again?

Shep wrote:

Raxmei wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Colossus is a bit confusing it has to fire indirect, but isn't a barrage, so fewer scatter dice but you still need line of sight? I see the main thing of the Griffon its the economy model of the Colossus, being half the cost.

Who said it wasn't a barrage? It has the barrage tag on the French summary.
Griffon has a much more useful minimum range than Colossus and *might* retain the direct fire option, though that asterisk is looking a mite ominous. Aside from that, yeah it's a cheap gun.

You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly. Once a unit has penetrated your minimum range, you can move 6", move any moveable LOS blocking models out of the way, and then unload, with better accuracy to boot.

The above discussion is at least partly in reference to the following:

Raxmei wrote:There's a rumored special rule for the Colossus that it can only fire indirectly. If true, the stupid complaints that the Basilisk is worthless because it lost the direct fire mode actually apply to the Colossus.

We are all aware of what the core rules say about ordnance barrages.

focusedfire wrote:Basilisks really should be for Apoc games

I concur!

Polonius wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:On the minus side, such a unit, 40+ infantry models in 2" coherency to each other, would be an unmissable target for artillery of all sorts.

Yeah, so your enemy hits 6 or 7 or 8 models with each shot. So what? Even outside of cover you're probalby only losing 5 or so each shot, in cover it's 3 or less. at 45 models you need to do 12 wounds to even trigger a moral test.

I know I can hit up to 16 models on a well-landed Thudd Gun barrage, and I routinely field a pair of those delicious guns. The idea of using Infernus shells against these blobs is just too devious not to :-P

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Shep wrote:You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly.

Where is this, again?

I'll PM you a page number when I get home... damn work!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Shep wrote:You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly.

Where is this, again?

Vehicles Shooting, Ordnance Barrage Weapons, page 58 of the big rule book. I have it bookmarked now because people have been coming up screaming about the basilisk once or twice a day ever since the summary was leaked.

Thanks, guys!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Shep wrote:You all should keep in mind the section of the main rulebook that states that all vehicles equipped with barrage weaponry may choose to fire it directly.

Where is this, again?

Page 58 BRB

"If fired directly at the target, they are treated exactly like normal ordnance weapons (ignoring the minimum range in the weapon profile)."

Basically all ordnance barrage can fire direct and roll 2d6-BS and has no minimum range.



edit* DAMN to slow!

Credit to Catferret on Warseer, only the Colossus is required to fire indirectly.

Oh, and indirect fire does deduct BS from the scatter distance unless the target is out of LOS. There are reasons why this is good that are beyond the scope of this thread.

JohnHwangDD wrote:2 Valks = 200+ pts
10 Vets w/ 3 Meltas = 110 pts
10 storms w/ 2 Plasma = 190 pts

You are paying 500 pts to deliver *1* Scoring Unit.

That doesn't seem wrong or foolish to you?

I'd suggest:
2x Mech IG squads = 250 pts
2x 5 Mech ISTs with Plasma = 250 pts

That's 4 Chimeras, with 4x Scoring units, having a total of 40 Wounds wrapped in armor. An extra turn to cover the 24", but far tougher to shift, IMO.

Your artificially inflating the math here. Now take the "new storms" and "new vets" in the new "55pt chimera" and it comes out 245 for the storms and 165 for the vets. Comes to 410 with the vets and if you team the "new stormies" with regular mech IG then it comes to 370 for an objective grabber and thats taking the "New stormies" at a squad of 10.

focusedfire wrote:
What GW did was to answer our request to make stormies distinctive and to storm. (I still remember those proposed discussions HMBC and JHDD, and Frazz called it right early on with the S3 AP3 .)

The only thing that would make be even cooler was if there were an open-topped vehicle that the stormies, the Ogryns, and/or the Vets could take.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yeah, something completely exotic. Like, say, a FW Salamander Transport?

Hey where are those storm troopers you promised

aka_mythos wrote:While I agree the weapon cost changes were a big knee jerk reaction, I don't really believe we ever should have had Deep Strike for free.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Guard shouldn't have costed 60 pts per squad, either. As I see it, we paid 10 to 15 pts per squad for Deep Strike bundled into a squad that was worth 45 or 50 pts.

In 5th ed you would be right about the squads being worth only 40-50pts(which they are now). But the IG codex was from fourth where they were formidable if run right. I disagree about deepstrike being included in the current(soon to go away) codex. I'm liking the sound of this new dex so much that I might start a Guard army. If I do I guarantee that I'll run a squad of the stormies just for the flexibility.


Edit to clean up appearance

Something's been bothering me about the whole Ogryn debate... I just have to say if you told me that Imperial Guard of all armies were getting a 12 man squad, WS 4, T5, 16 S6 attacks on the Charge preceeded by 12 S5 shots, all for about 160 points, I would have said that was just silly wishlisting. But because it's encapsulated in four 40-point models then it's a horrible price to pay? I think most armies would love a squad as described above for 160 points. A squad of Assault marines with 10 T4 wounds is 190 points before goodies.

I think there might be some prejudice based on past performance of Ogryn, where a SM hit had a 50/50 chance of causing a wound with a bad armor save, and a powerfist would kill whole models at a time. 160 points or so (not even considering the bonehead's extra attack or rumored power weapon), ain't that bad.

There's been some throwing about of brains about the issue on Warseer. Some posters have been crunching the numbers. Their durability against S8 and S9 attacks is such that you could thow a few of them at a Gunfex or a Dakkafex and probably keep it occupied for a couple of CC phases.

You'd still be giving up 3-4 infantry squads for every Ogryn unit you'd field, it's up to individual preferences if that is a fair tradeoff for occasionally being pretty tough and for the fluff. For someone like me who's not too keen on fielding a proper horde army, it's a feasible tradeoff, but even I am not expecting for them to be anything but an expensive liability and handicap that I will have to overcome.

Don't recall if its been posted yet, but the GW website now has pics of the new sentinels and they look good.

focusedfire wrote:But the IG codex was from fourth where they were formidable if run right.

Actually, the current Codex dates all the way back to 3rd Ed. where it was indeed formidable if run right. I ran a very competitive army, and still got max comp. points at RTTs.

Since the release of 3rd Ed. the IG have always had some competitive builds, and will almost certainly continue to have some competitive builds. The issue a lot of players have is that a huge amount of the stuff in the Codex has been junk for years. This becomes doubly annoying when people give IG players crap for fielding "boring" armies.

Uuuhhhmm....Not trying to get your hopes up....but the ignore cover order that everyone says was only a rumor....

It might still have beeen a false rumor and real at the same time.

Theres something on warseer about intervening troops from your own army not giving coversaves as an Army special rule. As opposed to being a part of the unit orders.

Could someone find out more info on this please?

JohnHwangDD wrote:
2 Valks = 200+ pts
10 Vets w/ 3 Meltas = 110 pts
10 storms w/ 2 Plasma = 190 pts

You are paying 500 pts to deliver *1* Scoring Unit.

That doesn't seem wrong or foolish to you?

I'd suggest:
2x Mech IG squads = 250 pts
2x 5 Mech ISTs with Plasma = 250 pts

That's 4 Chimeras, with 4x Scoring units, having a total of 40 Wounds wrapped in armor. An extra turn to cover the 24", but far tougher to shift, IMO.

It is a bit pricey, but at the same time you can put them exactly where they need to be without caring about intervening units as much as the Chimeras do. They also serve as highly mobile point clean up for enemy deep strikers or the like.

I don't think it is going to be a crucial part of any tourney lists, but I think you could give your opponant fits while using units that you had liked better in previous editions.

The Dude over on warseer is saying something about a special character that allows you to take Storm troopers as a scoring troop unit.

That could change things a lot if its true.

Has anyone gotten a hold of a copy of the new 'dex yet?

Dude said some very interesting things in the list he put up and I'm interested in finding out if any of it is true.

focusedfire wrote:Uuuhhhmm....Not trying to get your hopes up....but the ignore cover order that everyone says was only a rumor....

It might still have beeen a false rumor and real at the same time.

Theres something on warseer about intervening troops from your own army not giving coversaves as an Army special rule. As opposed to being a part of the unit orders.

Could someone find out more info on this please?

Uhm. That's Platoon Drill you're speaking of, if I'm not mistaken. And it was probably the very FIRST rumour to surface about the Guard Codex.

The talk on Warseer seems to be mostly "We can't find this rule anywhere in the Codex" from the 'sources' who supposedly have access to the final codex.

Thanks Alex, Upon reading that was an early rumor but the others by The Dude are more current.

Maybe I missed this in the current rumors but I remember reading before that infantry squads that don't take a heavy weapon can take a 2nd special weapon instead.. is this gonna be the case or was it just fanboy wishlisting?

Also, what are the troop choices gonna be officially? just 1 platoon = 1 troop choice, so no matter what you always need 2 platoons in your list? or is the stormtroopers counting as troops if you take a special character gonna be real?

Veterans and Penal Squads are also Troops choices. The latter, rumored to be 50pts, looks to be a boon for filling the second compulsory slot in 500 point games.

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:2 Valks = 200+ pts
10 Vets w/ 3 Meltas = 110 pts
10 storms w/ 2 Plasma = 190 pts

You are paying 500 pts to deliver *1* Scoring Unit.

That doesn't seem wrong or foolish to you?

I'd suggest:
2x Mech IG squads = 250 pts
2x 5 Mech ISTs with Plasma = 250 pts

That's 4 Chimeras, with 4x Scoring units, having a total of 40 Wounds wrapped in armor. An extra turn to cover the 24", but far tougher to shift, IMO.

Your artificially inflating the math here. Now take the "new storms" and "new vets" in the new "55pt chimera" and it comes out 245 for the storms and 165 for the vets. Comes to 410 with the vets and if you team the "new stormies" with regular mech IG then it comes to 370 for an objective grabber and thats taking the "New stormies" at a squad of 10.

There is NO inflation, because that is the force that the OP suggested and you agreed with. He said 2 Valks and Storms and Vets, not Chimeras. I fact, you didn't mention Chimeras in your reply, nor Mech IG at all. If you switch the Transport and Troops, then you're totally negating the OPs suggestion. Perhaps you were premature in your agreement?

focusedfire wrote:Hey where are those storm troopers you promised

I said I'd re-sell, so you still need to ship them to me first.

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Guard shouldn't have costed 60 pts per squad, either. As I see it, we paid 10 to 15 pts per squad for Deep Strike bundled into a squad that was worth 45 or 50 pts.

In 5th ed you would be right about the squads being worth only 40-50pts(which they are now). But the IG codex was from fourth where they were formidable if run right.

We are now playing 5th, so my above analysis is correct. Under 4th, Deep Strike wasn't nearly as useful because Objectives and mobility weren't very important.

focusedfire wrote:I'm liking the sound of this new dex so much that I might start a Guard army.

No wonder you're so up on Storms and the new Codex - you don't own any Guard!

From reading Bols and Warseer it seems to be that there is now a strong consensus on troop platoon layout.

It's RUMORED to go like this:

1 Command Squad
2-5 Troops
0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads
0-3 Special Weapon Squads
0-1 Conscripts

Vets seem to occupy a troop slot all by themselves as do the Penal Legions.


These are only rumors

Wehrkind wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
2 Valks = 200+ pts
10 Vets w/ 3 Meltas = 110 pts
10 storms w/ 2 Plasma = 190 pts

You are paying 500 pts to deliver *1* Scoring Unit.

That doesn't seem wrong or foolish to you?

I'd suggest:
2x Mech IG squads = 250 pts
2x 5 Mech ISTs with Plasma = 250 pts

That's 4 Chimeras, with 4x Scoring units, having a total of 40 Wounds wrapped in armor. An extra turn to cover the 24", but far tougher to shift, IMO.

It is a bit pricey, but at the same time you can put them exactly where they need to be without caring about intervening units as much as the Chimeras do. They also serve as highly mobile point clean up for enemy deep strikers or the like.

I don't think it is going to be a crucial part of any tourney lists, but I think you could give your opponant fits while using units that you had liked better in previous editions.

Oh, no doubt there are tradeoffs and advantages. Thing is, for 500 pts, you can do an awful lot, so I think the standard for performance is very high. If grabbing objectives, dropping 10 T3 Sv5+ Veterans doesn't seem quite right.

When you talk about intervening units, Chimeras can still Tank Shock or go 6" and use the Heavy Flamer. And for similar points, a couple of Drop Pods will land accurately, too.

I think it'd be interesting to have someone like you try, but I think I'm going to stick wtih the basics.

Update from The Knowing, Griffons can't fire directly, and that is the full extent of their special rules.

The Colossus probably does a beneficial special rule, like ignoring cover, otherwise it would be a completely stupid choice.

What's a Vendetta?

floppy wrote:What's a Vendetta?

A Valkyrie with superior weapons. I think it starts with 3 Twin-Linked Lascannons.

Since the Company HQ is the only one that can give the twin link AT order, can we take 2 of them? And does Creed replace company HQ? I wonder how much 4 order from him will cost us.

JohnHwangDD wrote:There is NO inflation, because that is the force that the OP suggested and you agreed with. He said 2 Valks and Storms and Vets, not Chimeras. I fact, you didn't mention Chimeras in your reply, nor Mech IG at all. If you switch the Transport and Troops, then you're totally negating the OPs suggestion. Perhaps you were premature in your agreement?

First Never said I agreed with it. Said I had the same thought, meaning the teaming up of the storms and a scoring unit. Didn't need to mention the chimeras at that point, only the tactical concept.

Now that it seems like there will be an upgrade that allows you to take them as troops and make them scoring. The pricing is becoming even more of a bargain. You hide them behind the tank wall in a chimera or you deepstrike them ,take your preference, they still become a late game objective stealing nuisance that will be hard to counter.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I said I'd re-sell, so you still need to ship them to me first.

Sorry, but you never specified that they would come from me and/or only me. You did say that you would sell them for 10 cents on the dollar. An offer that I gladly accepted.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Guard shouldn't have costed 60 pts per squad, either. As I see it, we paid 10 to 15 pts per squad for Deep Strike bundled into a squad that was worth 45 or 50 pts

We are now playing 5th, so my above analysis is correct. Under 4th, Deep Strike wasn't nearly as useful because Objectives and mobility weren't very important.

Yeah but you said," shouldn't have" which invalidates your 5th ed only analysis as to the fact that the last Gaurd codex was written in 3rd ed(Thanks Dave). This supports my argument that it was a good codex for the time it was written. This also supports my position that the current IG codex was made obsolete with 5th ed and that the guard squad cost was accurately priced for the time it was written.

JohnHwangDD wrote:No wonder you're so up on Storms and the new Codex - you don't own any Guard!

Absolutely correct. Don't own any,YET. But have played across from them quite a bit. I mainly play Tau, so I'm familiar with having a shooty army. I will say that as a Tau player I would love to have a unit like the storms for 16pts/ea . Before you say Vespids, do a mathammer and see which unit is stronger at 16pts. Then also compare tactical flexibility, armor save, and available upgrades.
Also not currently having a guard army doesn't keep me from seeing the obvious strengths,..and weaknesses,... in these rumored stats for the IG. But hey, I'm only a Tau player who still wins more than half of his matches in 5th ed.
So yeah, There is no real benefit in using storms at that price so I'll be happy to buy them off of you at that 10 cents a dollar you mentioned .

Seeing how overpriced Storms are, making them Scoring only works if the Character is awesome and FREE.

If you accept an offer, then you accept the entire offer. Nowhere did I state that the terms were severable, therefore, you need to ship first, for which I will pay 1%.

Whether the IG Codex was written in 3rd (for 4th), or 5th makes no difference. It's like looking at the Eldar 'dex during 4th and 5th, and wondering about Mech. The analysis still holds.

I will make a bet with someone:

If Targeters allow a re-roll to wound, I will never say a bad thing about this codex ever again.

If Targeter's don't, I will not buy this P.O.S. Codex and I'll just resume working on my Eldar again, because at least the Eldar have a codex where nothing is stupidly overpriced. Okay maybe a couple things. But at least it's a good, solid codex, and not a P.O.S. like the turd Robin wrote.

Off-topic,
And you failed to state that they were not severable.
Your best defense in this little joke is that you could argue that the contract had a stipulation in it that made sale contingent upon your ability to buy at the much diminished price.

Now that I've given you an out, lets talk.

You can't say that something was created wrong when it was made correctly at the time of creation and accurate for what it was designed for.

You can say it became obsolete, but to attempt to judge the value of something by a set of paradigms that it was never designed for is an attempt to create a false premise in defense of an innaccurate statement.

On-topic,

Now, maybe we can talk about the actual tactical possibilities of the Storm Troopers.

If the rumors are indeed accurate that they may be able to be fielded as scoring troop units, Does this make up for some of what you consider as over-pricing?

Is anyone else upset that Heavy Weapons are a single 2W entry at T3...hence easily instant killed.

That was covered two threads ago

It really comes to a pretty fair trade off when you consider the increased resistance to flamers.


edit for dropped letter

focusedfire wrote:
Now, maybe we can talk about the actual tactical possibilities of the Storm Troopers.

If the rumors are indeed accurate that they may be able to be fielded as scoring troop units, Does this make up for some of what you consider as over-pricing?

Short answer: No

Long answer: While yes, it's cool that they're scoring, you'll probably have to pay extra points to get them scoring. Making it even worse.

Plus, 1 Stormtrooper= approx 3 Guardsmen. 10 Stormtroopers= approx 30 Guardsmen. I'll take the 30 Guardsmen. Stormtroopers suck. Face it.

It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Vladsimpaler wrote:Long answer: While yes, it's cool that they're scoring, you'll probably have to pay extra points to get them scoring. Making it even worse.

Plus, 1 Stormtrooper= approx 3 Guardsmen. 10 Stormtroopers= approx 30 Guardsmen. I'll take the 30 Guardsmen. Stormtroopers suck. Face it.

When you figure the cost of trying to get those 30 guardsmen on to that back odjective it doesn't seem to suck as much as you say it does.

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Haven't faced a lot of drop pods lately? Have you?

focusedfire wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Haven't faced a lot of drop pods lately? Have you?

I have but regardless, durability to flamers aside I feel this is a nerf overall

I don't have to say that they were severable, because it is clear from any casual reading that the resale ties to buying at 1%. Therefore the resale is obviously conditional.

If I need a rough chisel and have a wide-bladed screwdriver, it'll do just fine on soft wood. So, in 5E, regardless of how it was designed in 3E, Guard Infantry are only worth their 60 pts paid with FREE Drop Troops.

As for tactical possibilities, there aren't any. The Storms are too overpriced to even consider this way.

I for one hope there will be some "take as troops" option for the Stormies.
Not that interested in buying another 25+ Mordians just to fill out the 2 troops req.

@ Chase,
Proper positioning. The very firm rumor of them counting as twin-linked with the proper order, and the current 5th ed coversaves. I'd say they are going to be much better than the were in fourth ed.

focusedfire wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:Long answer: While yes, it's cool that they're scoring, you'll probably have to pay extra points to get them scoring. Making it even worse.

Plus, 1 Stormtrooper= approx 3 Guardsmen. 10 Stormtroopers= approx 30 Guardsmen. I'll take the 30 Guardsmen. Stormtroopers suck. Face it.

When you figure the cost of trying to get those 30 guardsmen on to that back odjective it doesn't seem to suck as much as you say it does.

Back objective? You want to pay that extra 100 or so for a Valkyrie? Alright, have fun. Paying 260 points just to get an objective?

I'd take 2 Guard squads both with a Grenade Launcher, and a normal Leman Russ with no sponsons. 150+50+50+10=260, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that what I do will be 100x more effective.

:edit: Do you even play Guard?

JohnHwangDD wrote:I don't have to say that they were severable, because it is clear from any casual reading that the resale ties to buying at 1%. Therefore the resale is obviously conditional.

Like how you just in essence repeated what I said but made it sound like it was your argument.

JohnHwangDD wrote:If I need a rough chisel and have a wide-bladed screwdriver, it'll do just fine on soft wood. So, in 5E, regardless of how it was designed in 3E, Guard Infantry are only worth their 60 pts paid with FREE Drop Troops.

Not according to GW as it appears that they took steps to correct what was percieved as a flaw. The infantry have been reduced in price by about 10 pts, even after being given a 10pt upgrade. Now,You say they should have been that price all along. If they should have been that price all along then it means that you feel that Drop troops wasn't a part of the design but were a free upgrade trade off for sacrificing unit options to use doctrines. Your arguing both ways.

JohnHwangDD wrote:As for tactical possibilities, there aren't any. The Storms are too overpriced to even consider this way.

So, once again, you say they are useless even before playtesting them. Let me know when you get tired of having them take up space doing nothing.

Good job focusedfire, ignoring my argument.

Essentially you just admitted that I'm right, via silence is consent.

Thanks, and have a nice day.

Vladsimpaler wrote:Back objective? You want to pay that extra 100 or so for a Valkyrie? Alright, have fun. Paying 260 points just to get an objective?

I'd take 2 Guard squads both with a Grenade Launcher, and a normal Leman Russ with no sponsons. 150+50+50+10=260, and I'd bet my bottom dollar that what I do will be 100x more effective.

:edit: Do you even play Guard?

Yep and beat them fairly regularly.

A lot of you have been saying that the guard need something for objective taking. That 2/3 of the missions are objective based and without a late game unit with some punch that it ends up being a draw most of the time. Yet the possibility of a deep-striking, scoring unit, that also just happens to be a pretty good at anti-meq is horrible because of a 16pt price tag. To this all I can say is don't take up Eldar or Tau.
The Valk is essintially a 100pt wave serp ......minus energy prow but already loaded with weapons. You just complained about the price on that.

Dude, You tell me. If the Tau or eldar were getting these units at the price listed and with all of the extra special abilities, "How much should they be?" If you try to say anything substantially less you'll hurt your credibility.

Patience Vlad,

Unlike some, I actually will listen and attempt to discuss a point. This means using thought out words and having a vocabulary as oppossed to just trying to say Ha-Ha you were wrong with out the evidence to back it up.

As to the effectiveness of your 260pt build. They'd never make it to the half way point on the board.


Oh yeah, You made a false assumption about having to take the Valk. Rumors seem to suggest that the re-rollable deepstrike is a seperate rule that can be used as normal or in addition to the jump from the valk

Edit for dropped sentence

Vlad relax. Focused fire is acually Cruddance looking for validation of his work. Dont't take it so personally.

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Haven't faced a lot of drop pods lately? Have you?

I have but regardless, durability to flamers aside I feel this is a nerf overall

There are three very important factors you need to take into consideration.

1. HW squads are now Troops, and therefore scoring.

2. HW squads are part of a Platoon, and therefore can be screened by infantry squads w/out giving cover to enemies.

3. HW squads can be given orders that either make them TL or give them +1 against AV (read: Str10 lascannons, Str8 autocannons, but this order is still not 100% confirmed).


These three factors alone, i feel, more than make up for the fact that they are vulnerable to S6+ weapons.

Good one Foil. Made me laugh *a lttle.

Does that make everyone that bashes the Codex an ex-employee of GW

No, but reading 3+ multi page forums makes me see some trends.

Guard Players = Universally disappointed with portions of the dex

Guys who play other armies but "know" guard = Think that this dex is made of rainbows and fairy sprinkles

BoxANT wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:

focusedfire wrote:

ChaseMacKenzie wrote:It doesnt seem to fair at all.

If they were close enough to flame your HWs they were lost as is, but now they can literally be longballed by Autocannons or whatever have you

Haven't faced a lot of drop pods lately? Have you?

I have but regardless, durability to flamers aside I feel this is a nerf overall

There are three very important factors you need to take into consideration.

1. HW squads are now Troops, and therefore scoring.

2. HW squads are part of a Platoon, and therefore can be screened by infantry squads w/out giving cover to enemies.

3. HW squads can be given orders that either make them TL or give them +1 against AV (read: Str10 lascannons, Str8 autocannons, but this order is still not 100% confirmed).


These three factors alone, i feel, more than make up for the fact that they are vulnerable to S6+ weapons.

#1 is kinda nice.

#2 is completely unconfirmed - none of the people who have claimed to have seen the actual book have confirmed the existence of such a rule.

#3 is not especially useful, if (as rumored) HW are stuck at Ld 7, and you use the squad's leadership to implement orders.

focusedfire wrote:Patience Vlad,

Unlike some, I actually will listen and attempt to discuss a point. This means using thought out words and having a vocabulary as oppossed to just trying to say Ha-Ha you were wrong with out the evidence to back it up.

As to the effectiveness of your 260pt build. They'd never make it to the half way point on the board.

Evidence, please? Please don't talk about how using evidence when you don't even provide your own.

In fact I do believe that this will make halfway across the board. AV14 does that to you. That's why this codex is Leman Russ spam.

Oh yeah, You made a false assumption about having to take the Valk. Rumors seem to suggest that the re-rollable deepstrike is a seperate rule that can be used as normal or in addition to the jump from the valk

Indeed? Well then you just have a 160 point squad of 10 T3, 4+ save troops. I'd still take a Leman Russ, even if it's not scoring.

Onto your other post:

focusedfire wrote:
Yep and beat them fairly regularly.

Sorry, I must have misworded my question. I meant to ask if you own a Guard army.

A lot of you have been saying that the guard need something for objective taking. That 2/3 of the missions are objective based and without a late game unit with some punch that it ends up being a draw most of the time. Yet the possibility of a deep-striking, scoring unit, that also just happens to be a pretty good at anti-meq is horrible because of a 16pt price tag. To this all I can say is don't take up Eldar or Tau.

I'm not really in the objective taking camp, so I'll ignore that. I play Eldar, and my anti-MEQ capabilities are very nice-Dark Reapers. 2 Str 5 Ap 3 shots from every guy, and these guys happen to have BS4 and a much larger range, in addition to better armor.

The Valk is essintially a 100pt wave serp ......minus energy prow but already loaded with weapons. You just complained about the price on that.

I don't think I ever complained about the price, just the fact that it's another thing to add to the equation.

Dude, You tell me. If the Tau or eldar were getting these units at the price listed and with all of the extra special abilities, "How much should they be?" If you try to say anything substantially less you'll hurt your credibility.

I don't understand, how would this hurt my credibility?

focusedfire wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:As for tactical possibilities, there aren't any. The Storms are too overpriced to even consider this way.

So, once again, you say they are useless even before playtesting them.

I say they are completely useless as Imperial Guard Stormtroopers and no testing is required - it is completely obvious from casual inspection.

OTOH, they are fine as Inquisitional Storms, because those guys are only 10 pts each.

focusedfire wrote:Dude, You tell me. If the Tau or eldar were getting these units at the price listed and with all of the extra special abilities, "How much should they be?" If you try to say anything substantially less you'll hurt your credibility.

As before, these guys are crap. I can't speak for Tau, but as an Eldar player, I would never take them.

For the same 16 pts to hold an Objective, Scorpions are far superior with Sv3+ armor. Scorpions are awesome at holding because they're hard to assault, and very reasonably-costed.

For the same 16 pts to kill stuff up close, Fire Dragons are better because they can pop transports or other enemy vehicles if need be. If a Land Raider is bearing down on them, the Storms stand around doing nothing. The Dragons simply fry the Land Raider.

But when we look at the Elite category, pound for pound, Harlequins beat both of the above options.


As anti-MEQ gunners, I can take Dark Reapers for half the price. Reapers have R48" S5 AP3 H2 guns that are good at shooting more than just Marine infantry, along with Sv3+ armor to help them survive.


For 16 pts, a GEQ needs to be amazing. And Storms simply aren't amazing. They're very narrow at what they can kill, but survive far worse than allied WH Sisters. 2 units of 10 (or 12) Sisters of Battle are far better at holding than Stormtroopers. They have S4 guns and Sv3+, along with Faith. And they cost less.

@Foil,
Never said that. I have units that I never use if being serious with the Tau.

I've already expressed an opinion that some of the vehicles are only good in Apoc games.

I've also noted the competition in the fast attack area and how hard it will be to take even one fast attack if you try to take advantage of the extra tanks now available in the heavies.

RR appear to really suck in this edition unless something good shows up that we don't know.


On the ogryns and Storms my perspective is different because GW is has made tactics normally associated with other armies available to the IG at a little under what the other armies pay. My points being:

Primaris psyker and choir=Farseer w/ warlock retinue

Valks = Wave Serpents

Ogryns = Ork nobs

Storms = Close to being Tau-like

Yes each of these is a little different. They are IG and so have an IG flavor. But having played Tau and Eldar I can tell you that there are viable tactics for the units as they are and wouldn't be considered over-priced in those armies for their intended function.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Dude, You tell me. If the Tau or eldar were getting these units at the price listed and with all of the extra special abilities, "How much should they be?" If you try to say anything substantially less you'll hurt your credibility.

I don't understand, how would this hurt my credibility?

More to the point, as has already been noted, Eldar get Fire Dragons at 16 pts/model. Why on earth would they take silly Storm Troopers?

focusedfire wrote:Ogryns = Ork nobs

Huh? Ogryns aren't even close to Nob Bikers.

Nob Bikers are taken as Scoring Troops, in much larger units, on fast-moving Bikes, with the ability to rip stuff up in HtH. Nob Bikerz are so much better than Ogryns, it isn't even funny.

@ JHDD,

Thing is, Scorpions don't have deep strike and would have to survive in order to strike back.

If you want infiltrate the unit goes up in price first for the exarch, then his weapons, and then you buy the abilities.

The scorps also don't count as a scoring units.

Storms can be armed with meltas for the landraider, do good as they are versus the sorps and get with help can get across the board faster than Harlie. Whom I might add are 18pts and the shadowseer ends up being 48pts and the troupe master ends up at 38 pts.

The storm do the job that 3 Eldar elites can do by your own admission. They may not be as specialized but thats because they are a jack of all trades elite that relies on firepower rather than assault. Why? Because they are guard.

So to have the tactical flexibility of the Storms the Eldar have to spend 2-3X the points

Edit plelling