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Right, seeing how Robin Cruddace has betrayed all of our expectations, we're back with underpowered, overcosted ogryns. Here's what we have:

Bone'ead +2 Ogryns 130pts. Up to 4 more for +40pts each. Stubborn, Furious Charge, Bulky (2 transport spaces) No wargear options. Can take orders.
Bone head 4 3 5 5 3 2 4 7 5+
Ogryn 4 3 5 5 3 2 3 6 5+
Ripper gun 12 5 - Assault 3

Now, the question arises, what should be done to either a) make the Ogryns worth those points, or b) reduce their points cost to a reasonable level.

For a), my suggestion is Feel No Pain slapped on top of the above stats. It'd result in a unit that's incredibly tough, but we're talking about a 250-point investment here. The price of two Basilisks. Half the cost of a Baneblade. Three Hydras. And so on.

Or what about that much-maligned special rule, Rending? If there's ever an IG unit that can rip a Marine limb-from-limb by their bare hands, then surely the Ogryn is that unit?

40 points each is absurd. Plain and simple. It's just mind bogglingly bad.

Normally in instances where something is overpriced for its power I'll be the first one to suggest buffing it so that it is worth its cost.

Not so here.

Ogryn need to be a unit you can field without having to give up a whole damned Infantry platoon or a squadron of lighter tanks (Hydras, Griffons, etc.). They need to be part of your army, not the central unit around which your army is based. And for 250+ points, in a 1500 or 1850 list, they will be a centra unit - part of your strategy will revolve around them, and I don't think Guard strategy should ever revolve around a HTH unit.

Ogryn have a very defined role, and that is to soak up wounds. They are not a HTH unit that kills things but are instead a HTH unit that acts as wall of muscle and flesh that just stops big killy assault units dead in their tracks. They should act as the ultimate speed bump.

I think that FNP combined with their T5 makes them perfect for that role. They are exceptionally hard to kill then. But that's all they can do - their shooting is lousy, they're no more killy in HTH than most bog-standard Marine units - so paying for their offensive power is stupid (even with S5 and whatever the Bone 'Ead can get). For that reason 25 points with T5 and FNP is a good deal. And before anyone says that's too tough, remember that they have a 5+ save, so 2/3rds of all attacks that get through in HTH cause a wound, so they need FNP. Alternative is to give them a 4+ save.

So make it 85 for the initial investment. That's 3 Ogryn at 25 points each +10 for the Bone 'Ead's Ld7. Maybe the Bone 'Ead is what allows the unit to take Orders, and maybe he has some options (power weapon, plasma pistol, whatever). Then 25 for up to 3 more. Gives you a solid unit of 6 models for 160 points. That's just over the cost of 3 Infantry Squads for 6 models (18 wounds).

I think that works.

I cannot for the life of me come to grips with what happened to the unit. There is no imaginable rationale for the changed cost, no way for it to be justified. Attributing it to stupidity seems as farfetched as blaming it on malice. Incredible amounts of either would be required. I can only assume they're VASTLY overrating the ability to use orders with the unit (even though it has no vox and low Ld). Either that, or vast amounts of incompetence.

It seems obvious that the change has never been playtested.

I'm at a complete lack for words to describe this madness. A part of me still wants to believe it is all a hoax but I know better. Many things I had wished for have materialized in one form or another, but they all pale in comparison to pricing Ogryns like terminators.

Not only will no-one in his right mind not buy any new models, we cannot even sell the models on ebay. Gah, I guess we'll have to do the same thing we did with our Griffons and Exterminators - leave them collecting dust on the shelf and wait for another edition or codex.

It makes me wish GW was more liked Privateer Press. When they have a dud infantry unit, they can release a UA for it in the next book, making it more playable, whereas with GW, we're stuck with these abortions for five or more years.

At first when Ogryn were rumored to stay the same cost(25) I thought they were great. They fit the IG perfectly because they are NOT a CC monster, they dont kill much, but can take much more punishment than most other CC units. If they cost 40 FNP seems the obvious choice, you can even drop furious charge for it, that might even be worth 40(cmon WD article). The other problem is LD, while stubborn they need a commissar. But commissars have 1 wound, and with a low model count he will be forced to make saves.

Besides, Ogryns cannot afford to lose additional squad members when they lose close combat. If they fail morale in CC, the Commissar executes one guy, and the rest are then subject to No Retreat wounds.

Rename them Ogryn Shock Troopers (and fluff them for being the biggest of the best) and increase their Leadership to 8, and 9 for the Sarge. Allow them to rally at under half strength. Give them Carapace Armour. Give the Bonehead a Power word. Keep em stubborn and with Furious Charge.

Now their about as good as Terminators in CC and shooting.

Keep em at rumored price of 40ish/model.

Jack

I don't think "as good as terminators" is the right benchmark to go for. I wouldn't want to dilute the IG's niche too much.

Maybe the reason they're so overpriced is because Ogryns can do what no other guardsman can do...survive a turn of shooting and damage someone in assault!

Maybe they're 40pts so they're treated as an elites choice (rare) instead of an every army option!

That said, I really hope they're not 40 points each. Rip off!!

If something is rare, you make it rare, you don't inflate its points cost.

Personally, I feel they are spot on at 40.

Lets compare them to termies.

Termie has 2+/5+ or 2+/3+

he has A pfist or equivelant. And maybe a storm bolter.

The Ogryn has a better gun. More attacks, and is more survivable. T5 and 3W is greater against small arms fire and the same against high S ap2 weapons as a 3++

in HTH the same is true. A Pfist does the same to 3++ as T5 W3.

The Ogryn has S6 on the charge, so against hordes, he will win better than a termie, and only do a bit worse against MCs. The Ogyn also will do the same to MEQs.

In the end they are worth it.

In the end its not if they are worth the same as a terminator(which they may be), but are they better than the other counter-charge choices IG gets. Rapid Fire and flamers are better vs hordes, and RR do the same as Ogryns for 1/4 the price, albeit only once.
Charging a unit of Bloodcrushers 6 Ogryns(250 pts) kill as much as 8 RR(88 points), and do it in one phase.
The only advantage of Ogryns is that they can live past the first combat, keeping the enemy tied up on their turn. However they need to pass their LD7 to do this because they will almost always take more wounds even if they lose less models, and will get wiped if they run with I2. A Commissar is only 1 wound and will be forced to take saves in a squad with such a low model count. So you would need a Commissar Lord or other IC, which could be targeted.

If they get a LD bonus in CC they might be worth taking. But a 250 point unit that has a 42% of running and failing the only advantage they have? Thats not worth the same as terminators or any other heavy CC unit.

I like T5 Ogryns at the 20-25 pt level against 4-5 pt Guardsmen. 40 pts is not playable.

Looking back at the issue, I've half a mind to try something like this:

Ogryns

Bone'ead +2 Ogryns 100 pts. Additional bodies for +30 pts each.

Statline the same, except Ld 8 on Bonehead and 4+ save for the lot.

- Stubborn
- Furious Charge
- Rending
- Bulky

Options:

- Can take a Commissar for 35pts

--

Simple. Effective. Smashy.

Why complain about ogryn rules? take a look at flash gitz
can cost more than an ogryn and are pretty much junk.


but i do agree ogrys are over priced, rending would be a nice upgrade.
maybe even a bone'ead weapon upgrade or 2.
(nothing like a huge ogryn running at you toting a thunder hammer )

Well, I can't comment about armies I don't play, but I'd guess flash gitz can outshoot and/or outchop an equivalent points cost of ogryns.

In a perfect world, the squad would have weapons options as well, at least on the Bonehead (as he's been surgically altered to be merely dim, instead of incredibly stupid). I don't think giving him a powerfist would be over the top at all, myself.

Darkness wrote:Personally, I feel they are spot on at 40.

Lets compare them to termies.

Termie has 2+/5+ or 2+/3+

he has A pfist or equivelant. And maybe a storm bolter.

The Ogryn has a better gun. More attacks, and is more survivable. T5 and 3W is greater against small arms fire and the same against high S ap2 weapons as a 3++

in HTH the same is true. A Pfist does the same to 3++ as T5 W3.

The Ogryn has S6 on the charge, so against hordes, he will win better than a termie, and only do a bit worse against MCs. The Ogyn also will do the same to MEQs.

In the end they are worth it.

I'm glad you posted that. I was getting ready to post something similar, but you've saved me the troubles.

Ogryns are a solid amazing unit. 40 pts for what they do? I think you all are asking for a little too much. They're fairly priced and are good at what they do.

Agem: i dont think a fist is over the top atall, though by thier size and strength i would have it work like a fist, but with only a small init. penalty

Well, I can't comment about armies I don't play, but I'd guess flash gitz can outshoot and/or outchop an equivalent points cost of ogryns.

erm, outshoot?
Range: 24, Str: 5, AP: D6, Assault 1

they are gak lol

I'd take the old statline (T4 etc.), give them Rending and Eternal Warrior (Melee only). Perhaps even shave a point or two off them. I'd also allow the Bone-ead a Power weapon. at double the normal cost.

I'd also take of the limitations regarding leading them with commisars.