Well, we already new that Canis was a dumb concept...but that model is hideous! :' Also the terminators are no be that the vanilla one we have already. Those pelt and tails are way over the top...they look like gaudy posers!

That wolf rider is beyond stupid.

Power Armour guys are nice though. And it seems that Space Wolves get their own special unique Terminator kit.

The "wolf" looks almost... feline :s

Maybe not feline but something is wrong with it.

EDIT: It looks a bit like a lynx I think.

I just like the goofy look on the wolfs face
If i do buy one for painting then it will need a head re-sculpt lol

Myrthe wrote:Ummm ... a bit underwhelmed here. I was really excited about new Space Wolves and the rumors of the Wolf Rider had me stoked !!!

That "wolf" doesn't even look like a wolf !! The muzzle is too short and cat-like and the "fur" looks like the top of a lemon merangue pie !!!!

And what ?? When did the Space Wolves become a bunch of unkempt, homeless bums in power armor ?!?!! (Sorry, no offense to unkempt, homeless folks intended).

Not sure what you expected. This has always been the approximate portrayal of SWs. Some people love the concept, others (like me) think it's hideous. All you have to do is not play em if you don't like em.

The wolf is a wolf from another planet. I'm actually glad that it looks weird for that very reason. I still don't think it could bear the weight of a SM very well though... Would have to be bigger and even more ridiculous looking. The whole idea is just Fail, imo. But some people are very excited about it.

I just want to hear about how the army performs on the table...

Achonate, keep in mind this wolf is the size of a fething vindicator
i dont think a marine would weigh that much for it.

Yeah and it's already ridiculously fail... I mean huge...

Archonate wrote:Yeah and it's already ridiculously fail... I mean huge...

says you personally the wolf rider is only average but everyone is making it sound like its a pile of gak. I think the rest of the line is phenomenal and new terminators are always welcome. Finally space wolves fully embrace their viking theme instead of being Ultramarines rip offs that have runes instead of roman letters.

There can be no denying that they're certainly coming into their own.

I think Mastiff has a better idea of what SW should look like.

The wolf is alright except for the head, it looks too small or out of proportion to me. As it's a rather key detail, it kind of throws the whole fig off.

Hmm... That wolf just doesn't look like what I was hoping for. Something's not right about the sculpt.

Remember these are Fnrisian wolves, they may not look like what we know Wolves to be.

I believe the correct term is "fugly" wolves.

Although if anyone wants to make a SM army based on Ted Nugent and his tails, I'd love to see it!

And it costs as much as a Land Raider. That better be one serious unit.

The two plastic kits look truly good. Some of the Term bits are great and some are only OK, but between these and the FW kits, I am happy. The PA kit looks like it has some GREAT stuff on it. I can't wait to see the sprues in person. I'm buying loads of these.

Onto the metals:

Njal - promising, need to see from other angles. I was hoping for more. I like the raven.

Canis - I actually think the torso, head, and claws look good. The wolf, not so much. I was expecting something a lot more half-bionic and vicious looking.

Lukas - piece of ****, pure and simple. Love the concept, but that model is pants.

H.B.M.C. wrote:That wolf rider is beyond stupid.

Power Armour guys are nice though. And it seems that Space Wolves get their own special unique Terminator kit.

I kind of like him, and the giant wolf model will be fantastic for conversions in the future.

Am I, like, the ONLY person that actually likes the look of the Space Wolf models?

EDIT:

Add-on. Does anybody know those prices in USD? Also, what is the price of the wolf guard terminators. I can't seem to read that one.

I love the terminators and standard spacewolf marines. But Loki the Trickster and Lupus Big Wolfman suck really, really hard.

Loki's face is messed up. His static pose looks uncomfortable, with the comically oversized lightning claw high in the air. Bringing all new meaning to the concept of a fugly mini.

As for the Super Wolfman rider.... I actually like the idea of guys riding huge wolves. But the pose is more static, too much like a historic cavalry statue (one leg up, no running motion). The center torso is SOOOOOOO built up that the head looks tiny. I also think that it looks a bit un-wolflike because the snout is shortened too much.

Luckily, however, my army is based on a space wolves raiding force that went into the Eye of Terror, 13th company style. And they eventually all died or turned to Khorne. As such, I'm going to convert my "wolf" riders up to be Space Wolves riding Juggernaughts of Khorne. So, in a sense, having a craptacular mini has kind of made my decision easier on the path I'm going to take with that unit.

Overall I am very pleased.

The power armor marines have much more beard, something that has been woefully missing from any/all non character space marines since the dawn of time. they also have different poses from the standard marine box set, always good for making each model as unique as possible.

The terminators look Great. Super ornate and ostentatious, these are Wolf Guard, heroes of the chapter, with many deeds under there belts and trophies to show off. I will end up getting at least 10 of these guys. (to bump me up to about 40 wolf guard terminator models, rofl)

Im on the fence with the Wolf-riding character. The wolf doesnt look scrawny and unable to support his weight, which was something I was worried about, but I agree with the above that the head on the wolf does not look right. The hero riding the wolf looks ok as well, I like the grizzled vetern feel to him.

Njal Stormcaller is amazing, well detailed with touches from the former model, note the pistol holster and staff are almost identical to the last models (sweeeeet) the face seems a bit off, but faces are hard to do, so no worries. I will be very happy to display this model next to the original.

The twin lightning claw wolf guard model, I already have it, it was a limited release a while back (I am guessing to test for demand for new, good Space Wolf models) and I must say that it is one of my favorite models in my army, (the non-converted ones at least)

I also like the trickster, I am going to convert the base to take advantage of the lifted-leg pose, and I dont know why another above poster mentioned that his lightning claw looked large.... its the same exact size as the rest of them in the army, and I think they look stellar. Also, the Tricksters face has a Great level of character to it, it really looks like what I imagined Loki to look like, without being OTT, funky, or too muted.



Overall, this is going to be an expensive release for me.

i'm looking forward to someone replacing the giant wolf with like perhaps a mecha-bear as part of some homebrew chapter

stupid question but i don't have the current codex nearby. is njal stormcaller currently in terminator armor because he looks like he's picked up a new suit at the HairyMen's Warehouse. if i'll be using my space hulk blood angels with the wolves rules, having a librarian SC in termi armor helps tons.

I love everything I see except the Loki-style character. He looks really goofy and doesn't hit that nice balance of silly and awesome that the rest have.

Kind of pains me that I have about 2500 points of Wolves who don't look this cool. Guess it's time to up to 3 grand then...

I think the Loki model is sweet. He is the only evil cunning grinning marine I've ever seen. I think he'll come more down to the paint job than anything else. Granted my "SW" are all robed marines that I'm painting up for this release so I won't be getting him but I still like it

jab4962 wrote:Am I, like, the ONLY person that actually likes the look of the Space Wolf models?

No. I think the generic Power Armour Space Wolves look good and the Terminators also look great. I also like Njal a lot.

It's the dude on the wolf who looks like gak both for being a gak concept and for being a gak model.

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU Thanks fer da pics the temies look sweeet and Najal is so nice, Now all we need is new wolf models and we're set.

dienekes96 wrote:The two plastic kits look truly good. Some of the Term bits are great and some are only OK, but between these and the FW kits, I am happy. The PA kit looks like it has some GREAT stuff on it. I can't wait to see the sprues in person. I'm buying loads of these.

That's true, the plastics look like they have alot of potential. Unfortunately, for the stock/studio photos, (and this is a problem with all plastic mini kits GW does) is they suffer from the "stick more bitz on in random places" disease. The models look really nice until you start adding all sorts of bits and bobs all over the place to them so they look like marine christmas trees.

Of course, I'm more minimalist in my plastic tastes. With a few less bitz, these will look great.

Everyone of us will remember this moment....

...Space Wolves have 'Jumped the Shark'.

Canis has a look to him that reminds me of late 80's early 90's models. The pose is just goofy, its like he is waving at friends. The wolfs tail is curling more like a horses then a canines and the chest is way deeper then it should be. The paint job is kinda meh. I even like the concept but the exectution is just not there.

The rest of the release looks pretty nice. Njal is awesome in my opinion, leaps and bounds better then the current one. I also dig the trickster model, althugh the wargear is an odd choice. The plastics all look really nice to me, but I don't mind vikings in space. Better then clowns in space.

From that same thread on Warseer

Edit. I forgot that not everyone can read spanish
The first picture is of the "basic" kit. You can use it for your wolf guard or mix it with the rest of SM line to get BC, LF, GH and scouts. You can assemble 10 minis. It contains 44 heads, 28 shoulder pads, arms and weapons for the wolf scouts, thunder hammers, wolf claws, pelts, plasma guns and pistols, and a variety of SW specific accesories like knives, wolf tails, etc.
The second picture is Canis Wolfborn. Amazing rider, not so keen on the wolf.
The third depicts the WG terminators. An excellent kit containing storm bolters, assault cannon, heavy flamer, chainsaw, power fists, power swords, frostblade? frost axe? (don't know the englist word name) 4 pairs of wolf claws and 4 pairs of thunder hammers and storm shields. And all that for the same price of a SM terminator squad. Hope it isn't a typo.
The forth photo is of Njal Stormcaller.
And in the last we can see the already known wolf guard with wolf claws and Lukas el Tramposo (I think this is the Loki character)

Some more info from the pictures.
Lukas has the "Doppleganger hide/cape/skin" that forces the enemy to reroll all his succesfull to-hit rolls. He is an upgrade for a BC pack. The mini will be a splash release.
Both him and Njal were sculpted by Juan Diaz.

Lukas the Trickster had his secondary heart ripped out by a Dark Eldar, and he had it replaced with a stasis bomb. The rule is called "the last laugh", and any models in base contact with him are removed from play. Not instant death, but removed from play.

Space Wolf HQs are indeed 2 to a slot. Sagas can not be duplicated through the army, and neither can wargear combinations. The example he gave me was say you have a wolf lord with a frost weapon, belt of russ, his standard issue bolt pistol and frag and kraks. The next wolf lord you buy can have a frost weapon, belt of russ, and his grenades, but you would have to give him something else, like a plasma pistol.

I also got to handle the 'wolf pack' sprue to make you standard marines. Loaded with great detail and cool looking heads, as well as a 'wolf head' helmet, which was totally awesome sauce. Sprue is loaded with goodies already pictured like thunder hammers, a set of wolf claws, and a storm shield. It makes 10 marines.

Why would you replace your heart with a ... that doesn't... but why... uhh...

Jumped the Shark is an apt description.

I kinda like the stasis bomb idea, shame bout the mini.

smartbomb in 40k:

Lukas the Trickster had his secondary heart ripped out by a Dark Eldar, and he had it replaced with a stasis bomb. The rule is called "the last laugh", and any models in base contact with him are removed from play. Not instant death, but removed from play.

Would expect such in a shoot em up...but tabletop?


See, GW didnt just copypasta nordic myths, they also include "He - man " (on a wolf)..


Space Wolf HQs are indeed 2 to a slot. Sagas can not be duplicated through the army, and neither can wargear combinations. The example he gave me was say you have a wolf lord with a frost weapon, belt of russ, his standard issue bolt pistol and frag and kraks. The next wolf lord you buy can have a frost weapon, belt of russ, and his grenades, but you would have to give him something else, like a plasma pistol.

So 4 x HQ?
Seems the first impression was right and its a herohammer40k codex.
Will be a nice read.

As long as the heroes can all be unique, and our own tailored ones are as game-effective as GW's named ones, and the various points costs are all balanced, we should have nothing to worry about.

Personally I quite like Marines that look like Christmas trees, too. I know from live roleplay and re-enactment combat that actually all that bling gets in the way, but hey, it looks cool.

Lukas the Trickster had his secondary heart ripped out by a Dark Eldar, and he had it replaced with a stasis bomb. The rule is called "the last laugh", and any models in base contact with him are removed from play. Not instant death, but removed from play.

Love it.

Suicidal awesome wrapped up in power armor and flowing with death. My kinda character right there.

Suicidal awesome wrapped up in power armor and flowing with death. My kinda character right there.

Mine too, pity the model is so...underwhelming. The quote from halo 3 by sergeant johnson came to mind immediately.

The_Chaplain wrote:

Suicidal awesome wrapped up in power armor and flowing with death. My kinda character right there.

Mine too, pity the model is so...underwhelming. The quote from halo 3 by sergeant johnson came to mind immediately.

Spoiler:

send me out....with a bang

I dunno, I like the model a Lot.

its hard to get faces on models that accurately portray the character in question, and Juan Diaz has done an excellent job here.

Loki's head looks like a god damned leprechaun >_<

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would you replace your heart with a ... that doesn't... but why... uhh...

Jumped the Shark is an apt description.

I don't think you need a reason. I mean, it's his second heart - might as well replace it with something stupidly awesome.

Of course, it doesn't exactly sound very space marine:ish. More like something a crazy ork painboy would do.

So, I can't really find this in the thread, what exactly are Lone Wolves?

Also, I would like to add myself into the category of people who think that anybody wearing power armor should not ride an animal.

how big are the wolf guard units you can field? i'm thinking about fielding a deathwing type wolf force using the space hulk minis and am not sure if i'll be able to use them all (have 2 sets on the way). are the WG up to 10 max for each elite slot (for a total of 30)? or do you just have one wolf guard unit/elite choice? if it's not the first then the rumored logan grimnar special ability of making them troops isn't all that great (good but not great).

warboss wrote:how big are the wolf guard units you can field? i'm thinking about fielding a deathwing type wolf force using the space hulk minis and am not sure if i'll be able to use them all (have 2 sets on the way). are the WG up to 10 max for each elite slot (for a total of 30)? or do you just have one wolf guard unit/elite choice? if it's not the first then the rumored logan grimnar special ability of making them troops isn't all that great (good but not great).

In 2nd edition you could field 20 Wolf Guard (and they can all have termy armor), they all essentially were independant characters that you could mash together to form one uber unit.

in 3rd edition you can field 20 Wolf Guard (and they can all have termy armor) they can either be assigned as a sort of veteren sergeant type of model to your normal units, or as a retinue "bodyguard" for many of the independant characters in the book.

In every iteration of the rules so far, 20 has been the hard cap, and they have been able to either create super strong units, or act as leaders for your troops.

in 3rd edition 1 elite slot bought you the ability to field as many Wolf Guard as you had points for.

Also, if rumors are true that there is a special character that makes Wolf Guard Troops, then you could very easily fill out an 1850 list with 20 wolf guard, a land raider or 2, and that character.
(assuming an average of 60 points per termy, 60x20=1200, + 500 for 2 land raiders, + 150 for the character)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=4300007a

Wolves Sprue pics. This been posted yet?

I know we've seen the cover of the codex already.

Lagduf wrote:http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=4300007a

Wolves Sprue pics. This been posted yet?

I know we've seen the cover of the codex already.

nope. i woke up less than an hour ago and have been catching up on the space wolf news overnight and that wasn't on the GW front page in that time. i'm pretty sure you've got the scoop!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Demogerg wrote:
in 3rd edition 1 elite slot bought you the ability to field as many Wolf Guard as you had points for.

Also, if rumors are true that there is a special character that makes Wolf Guard Troops, then you could very easily fill out an 1850 list with 20 wolf guard, a land raider or 2, and that character.
(assuming an average of 60 points per termy, 60x20=1200, + 500 for 2 land raiders, + 150 for the character)

cool, thanks. 20 plus characters is all i would have roughly from the two space wolf sets!

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/common/xLargeArticleImage.jsp?mWidth=&mURL=/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470103a_2009-09-07_A_873x627.jpg&mAlt=&mHeight=

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/common/xLargeArticleImage.jsp?mWidth=&mURL=/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470113a_2009-09-07_2_873x627.jpg&mAlt=&mHeight=

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/common/xLargeArticleImage.jsp?mWidth=&mURL=/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m470107a_2009-09-07_1_873x627.jpg&mAlt=&mHeight=

Thats a lot of heads on the sprue, but only 5 legs? rip off.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would you replace your heart with a ... that doesn't... but why... uhh...

Jumped the Shark is an apt description.

Not very Space Marine-ish for sure, but at least they mention dark eldar in a new codex, so maybe that should rest everyone's fears that they might be going away.

I believe two sets of sprues come in each box. Ten men, plus a million bitz? NOT a rip off.

1hadhq wrote: smartbomb in 40k:

Lukas the Trickster had his secondary heart ripped out by a Dark Eldar, and he had it replaced with a stasis bomb. The rule is called "the last laugh", and any models in base contact with him are removed from play. Not instant death, but removed from play.

Would expect such in a shoot em up...but tabletop?


See, GW didnt just copypasta nordic myths, they also include "He - man " (on a wolf)..


Space Wolf HQs are indeed 2 to a slot. Sagas can not be duplicated through the army, and neither can wargear combinations. The example he gave me was say you have a wolf lord with a frost weapon, belt of russ, his standard issue bolt pistol and frag and kraks. The next wolf lord you buy can have a frost weapon, belt of russ, and his grenades, but you would have to give him something else, like a plasma pistol.

So 4 x HQ?
Seems the first impression was right and its a herohammer40k codex.
Will be a nice read.

Is that statisbomb rule true???

10 men plus bitz can upgrade other spess mehrine sprues (Assault Sprue and Tac Squad sprue so from one wolf pack, 1 tactical squad and 1 assault squad you get 10 wolf guard with P/Armour, 10 Grey Hunters and 10 Blood Claws for about 60 pounds. Not too bad a deal but you are paying about 5-10 pounds just for them being Space Wolves.

I like the power armor parts, the Terminators don't look very exciting to me, and Canis Wolfborn just... Well, it's a Space Wolf riding a space wolf.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would you replace your heart with a ... that doesn't... but why... uhh...

Jumped the Shark is an apt description.

Seems like having one less heart should be a disadvantage? The character should have lower toughness and/or fewer wounds... But that was probably conveniently overlooked.
And exactly how does one escape the DE unless they want you to?
Does his bomb go off when he dies or whenever he wants?

Agamemnon2 wrote:Canis Wolfborn just... Well, it's a Space Wolf riding a space wolf.

Oh be nice. SW players already tolerate enough homoerotic references without a character like this making it worse.

Archonate wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Canis Wolfborn just... Well, it's a Space Wolf riding a space wolf.

Oh be nice. SW players already tolerate enough homoerotic references without a character like this making it worse.

Well it could be worse. They could be DA players .

Archonate wrote:Seems like having one less heart should be a disadvantage? The character should have lower toughness and/or fewer wounds... But that was probably conveniently overlooked.
And exactly how does one escape the DE unless they want you to?
Does his bomb go off when he dies or whenever he wants?

I think it's an interesting choice that GW is giving the Puppies a suicide bomber, in this day and age.

Correction, He is a Space Wolf riding a Fenrisian Wolf.

Any further word on the rules?

SgtDavi wrote:10 men plus bitz can upgrade other spess mehrine sprues (Assault Sprue and Tac Squad sprue so from one wolf pack, 1 tactical squad and 1 assault squad you get 10 wolf guard with P/Armour, 10 Grey Hunters and 10 Blood Claws for about 60 pounds. Not too bad a deal but you are paying about 5-10 pounds just for them being Space Wolves.

It's a *lot* cheaper than upgrading basic SM to Black Templars.

The idea that SW are complaining because there are so many bonus btiz specifically useful to upgrade basic Marines is pretty silly, IMO.

The real complaint should be that there doens't appear to be Melta or Flamer on the SW Sprue.

I noticed that there was no meltagun on the sprue, but I didnt notice that there was no flamer. I'm particularly disappointed that they would forget something like that.

I am ok with no melta or flamer, because I have an excess of them both from the older sets.

I dont however have any plasmaguns at all in my entire army. so this sprue is pure win for me.

Shouts out to Mr. Bender from portugal and Warseer.
Disregard the placeholder pricing but note the battle force contents.

The picture hosting thing appears to be acting up at the moment, so this will have to do. Sorry.

Great Googlymoogly, those are bloody mediocre

I am rather happy, only slightly annoyed that the battleforce isn't dropping at the same time as the codex?

That just seems plain stupid to me.

Does the psychic power that kills units on an Initiative test do anything to vehicles? Also, Logan Grimnar was rumored to be more of a major buff unit as opposed to a combat character. Is that true at all?

..err you did read the little text box about him on the previous page yes ? The one about him granting skills to units he is with ?

How many attack bikes per Swiftclaws squadron?

How many Power weapons per BC squad?

feth you GW for 10 man drop pods.

I personally like the fact that I can still use the plastic marines and sprues I have lying around.
Also, is it just me or is that drop pod straight-up blue?

Sigh...I was really hoping for some cool vehicle bitz for SW.

Saw the codex today, Njal kind of pissed me off, ignores any psychic power within 24" on a 3+.

Really? C'mon, that just crippled Eldar.

Not to mention his passive power chart that has one of them as -1Bs for all models in 24".

Outdated post removed and recompiled on pg 15

The tricksters statis bomb isnt on a 4+ its each model in base contact rolls a D6 if Lukas rolls equal or higher then they are dead.

Dude, the contradictory rumors make me want to shoot myself. 15 BCs, but only ONE power weapon? Wow, that blows. What should I do with the 7 power weapons I'm going to have left over?

Big problem with the +D3" saga and the outflank saga is that they seem to forget to mention the important parts.

Saga of the iron wolf doesnt mention that the vehicle counts as moving its previous speed like red paint does, therefore it sucks.

Saga of the hunter says "the character" has outflank and stealth. Stealth is passed onto the unit he joins, but outflank is not a USR and it does not mention it in rulebook.

Ahhh...GW lack of editing strikes again

@Ravenous D: Is it d3 or d6 for vehicle movement?
@Scottywan: I think the original poster was just being lazy in regrads to BC. I doubt they have changed much.

I'm hearing of a second wave of SW models on October 22nd. Does anybody know what's new then?

If most of these are true then wolves are now the strongest army in the game on paper.
Some of the rules seem insane, as do points for certain things.
alot of things seem like they will be broken.


I think this will be like going against an army of bloodcrushers.

In which case, time to arm my BA for CC

wyomingfox wrote:Ahhh...GW lack of editing strikes again

I'm pretty sure they're just paraphrasing.

Jesus people wait till we've actually seen the book before we start complaining about it. After its out its fair game.

wyomingfox wrote:Ahhh...GW lack of editing strikes again

@Ravenous D: Is it d3 or d6 for vehicle movement?
@Scottywan: I think the original poster was just being lazy in regrads to BC. I doubt they have changed much.

D3", Im sure it will get an FAQ but as it stands its useless.

Although Im not looking foward to the premise of a land raider moving 15" getting models out and assaulting in the same turn. Thats 24" with the 25mm bases (15 + 2" + 1" + 6")

Mastiff wrote:Great Googlymoogly, those are bloody mediocre

I gave props to you for your SM conversions! I like your take much better - though they're "dogs" rather than "wolves".

Scottywan82 wrote:Dude, the contradictory rumors make me want to shoot myself. 15 BCs, but only ONE power weapon? Wow, that blows. What should I do with the 7 power weapons I'm going to have left over?

i know, we need a nice scanned copy for everyone to "review"

They can only fit ten guys in a rhino and drop pod because THE CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS THEY GET THAT REGULAR MARINES DON'T GET FOR THE SAME POINT VALUE TAKE UP A LOT OF GOD DAMN SPACE.

This also explains the same issue with chaos transports.

It's probably the beards and all the extra bitz taking up the space.

ShumaGorath wrote:They can only fit ten guys in a rhino and drop pod because THE CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS THEY GET THAT REGULAR MARINES DON'T GET FOR THE SAME POINT VALUE TAKE UP A LOT OF GOD DAMN SPACE.

This also explains the same issue with chaos transports.

I lol'd

I disagree, it is very apparent that if the SW read the Codex Astartes, they too would know how to fit 12 in a DP or Rhino. Anyone know if the SW Cyclone is Ultramarine style or DA/BA style?

ShumaGorath wrote:They can only fit ten guys in a rhino and drop pod because THE CLOSE COMBAT WEAPONS THEY GET THAT REGULAR MARINES DON'T GET FOR THE SAME POINT VALUE TAKE UP A LOT OF GOD DAMN SPACE.

This also explains the same issue with chaos transports.

Topknots.

Also, CSM transports account for extra room taken up by spikes.

i don't think they will be all that good after reading this...

DruidODurham wrote:

Lone Wolves is 20 points base. WS 5 with 2 wounds, eternal warrior, feel no pain and re-rolls to hit against Walkers, Monstrous Creatures and things above T5. They are also really angry and have lots of options. Lone wolves that ARENT killed give up a kill point. Compared to 58 pt SM terminators these guys are awesome...unless they act independantly, then they are horrible due to KP craziness

They act all alone, they are ment to hunt big targets all on their lonesome. They are Wolfs that lost their whole pack and for some reason couldn't become Scouts, and they weren't chosen for the Wolf Guard so they get really angry and swear some oaths to avenge their brothers and kill stuff.

Codex Cover and a look at some sprues

DruidODurham wrote:It's probably the beards and all the extra bitz taking up the space.

No, no, no....the reason the Space Wolf transports have a lower passenger capacity is the space is taken up by the kegs of ale they take with them when they go into battle.

BrotherStynier wrote:

DruidODurham wrote:

Lone Wolves is 20 points base. WS 5 with 2 wounds, eternal warrior, feel no pain and re-rolls to hit against Walkers, Monstrous Creatures and things above T5. They are also really angry and have lots of options. Lone wolves that ARENT killed give up a kill point. Compared to 58 pt SM terminators these guys are awesome...unless they act independantly, then they are horrible due to KP craziness

They act all alone, they are ment to hunt big targets all on their lonesome. They are Wolfs that lost their whole pack and for some reason couldn't become Scouts, and they weren't chosen for the Wolf Guard so they get really angry and swear some oaths to avenge their brothers and kill stuff.

Then they fail . Sorry but one itty bitty guy isn't going to take down a Hive Tyrant or blood thirster...much less even get a chance to wound one. Plus the huge # of easy KP. Now if I could have had a squad of these guys and then given them divergent weapon options...ala biker nobs...and mounted them in a transport, then they would be fun .

I think you might find that he actually only gives away a KP if he is NOT killed.

So SW have dwarf slayer characters then.

wyomingfox wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:

DruidODurham wrote:

Lone Wolves is 20 points base. WS 5 with 2 wounds, eternal warrior, feel no pain and re-rolls to hit against Walkers, Monstrous Creatures and things above T5. They are also really angry and have lots of options. Lone wolves that ARENT killed give up a kill point. Compared to 58 pt SM terminators these guys are awesome...unless they act independantly, then they are horrible due to KP craziness

They act all alone, they are ment to hunt big targets all on their lonesome. They are Wolfs that lost their whole pack and for some reason couldn't become Scouts, and they weren't chosen for the Wolf Guard so they get really angry and swear some oaths to avenge their brothers and kill stuff.

Then they fail . Sorry but one itty bitty guy isn't going to take down a Hive Tyrant or blood thirster...much less even get a chance to wound one. Plus the huge # of easy KP. Now if I could have had a squad of these guys and then given them divergent weapon options...ala biker nobs...and mounted them in a transport, then they would be fun .

I am thinking these guys are going to Rock.

If you can mount them on bikes they will be a pretty sweet choice for the 3rd elite slot, (scouts and wolf guard are a given)

give one of them a thunderhammer combimelta on a bike (or frostblade, meltabombs, combimelta on a bike), hide it behind a land raider on the first turn, turboboost out, next turn either melta a vehicle in the face, or double assault with the guys who were in the land raider (the land raider that moved an extra D6 inches BTW)

your opponent either shoots at him and not at your other units, (cheap diversion) or tries to ignore him to snag a Killpoint, but ends up losing a KP because he meltas or smashes something. DO WANT.

Zathras wrote:

DruidODurham wrote:It's probably the beards and all the extra bitz taking up the space.

No, no, no....the reason the Space Wolf transports have a lower passenger capacity is the space is taken up by the kegs of ale they take with them when they go into battle.

That, I can believe, Zathras !! I wonder if it's in the fluff somewhere !!

I now have the incentive and imagery to spend the time detailing the interiors of my transports !!! Maybe I'll even add spigots and tankards to the outside of them

reds8n wrote:I think you might find that he actually only gives away a KP if he is NOT killed.

I am still trying to wrap my head around this one. So, basically the Wolves get an automatic 1 KP advantage. It is a win/win situation for them. If I see a frothing, half-insane murderer charging towards my lines, what are my option? 1) Take it like a true Guardsman in CC and lose my unit ( KP for the enemy ) or 2) sacrifice firepower to eliminate him and still lose a KP. Is this sane? Of course not.

A-P wrote:

reds8n wrote:I think you might find that he actually only gives away a KP if he is NOT killed.

I am still trying to wrap my head around this one. So, basically the Wolves get an automatic 1 KP advantage. It is a win/win situation for them. If I see a frothing, half-insane murderer charging towards my lines, what are my option? 1) Take it like a true Guardsman in CC and lose my unit ( KP for the enemy ) or 2) sacrifice firepower to eliminate him and still lose a KP. Is this sane? Of course not.

well, its actually an automatic Disadvantage untill you kill them

lets say I have 3 of them, if the game were to end on turn 1 before anything was killed, you would win by 3 KPs.

you can play keep-away, and get free KPs for not killing these models (most desirable for you)
you can shoot them to death, and not take any other loses, and kill a point-sink unit (neutral for you, I spend points and waste a slot to soak fire)
you can let them get to you and fight you in close combat (least desirable, you might give me killpoints, or you might take away your own killpoints)

# Runepriests: new magic no gates, but storm is 24” - gives 5+ cover and turns zone of usage into difficult terrain for skimmers etc. Cancels psychic powers of enemy on 4+.

Huh.

So, uhm, the Kustom Force Field suddenly doesn't feel all that impressive LOL. Am I reading this right? 24" version of the KFF with extra benefits? Is the psychic power cancelling part of the "spell", or part of the models base rules (ie like runes of warding)?

Njal casts 3 powers per turn, cancels all psychic attacks on 3+ within 24". You don’t roll for ld, you just plainly cancel them. Not to mention his passive power chart that has one of them as -1Bs for all models in 24".

Soooo, does this mean he can cancel things like Fortune? Or only things affecting him? What about conceal, embolden or Veil of Tears?

If all we hear is true,

Its back to the good old days, when each new codex was designed to be overpowering, until it got remedied by the subsequent NEWER and BETTER codex!

Obviously they have noted that in the heyday of that culture (2004) sales were better then now, so they have connected the dots, and balance is out the window!

If rumours are true, of course we can see how all this plays out in the ever-joy of Army Builder.

In good min-Max tradition you team up 4 overpowered heroes who gets 50 attacks per turn with the biggest squads of the cheapest troops possible, who can get character/saga boosted to their own quadrillion attacks on the charge. this is rhino rush, cos they can't drop pod and charge.

The "one attack per enemy in base contact" is obviously Phil Kelly designing around his own orc codex, and the sure way to rape the dreaded Orc Nob squad, since marines always get the initiative.

Indeed here is the perfect Orc Horde crushing army.

I guess greenskins were a little uber the space marines, and we can't have our best selling army beaten in serious competitive game play can we.

So the codex design (as we hear it) is clearly directed at the larger culture and stamping greenskins back in place!

Likewise all the gunk about monster slaying and instant killing is obviously directed at taming that other uber army: nidzilla....

So new wolves will clock up sales a plenty because they will have good results on tables and become the pest removers to get those irritating bugs and green skins in line.

It will sell some green models as well as orc heads retool their list to cope with the new bully on the block.

The Joker character blowing up and taking a whole pieve of the map and everyone with him, is just a God-aweful rule, that nurfs Abaddon, Hive Tyrants and other honestly paid for 200-300 point units with some "tricksy" 70 point unit that can sneak off from back board, and you can't shoot him, cos you can't see him...hehehe.

Didn't there used to be evesor assassins that did that just fine. They are (were) servants of the imperium after all..? Why do they need some long haired; drug snorting drag queen in power armour, "sneaking" (in POWER ARMOUR) around?

It looks like new wolves may also inspire some new Chaos, Daemon and Eldar lists, as all these crews have builds that can cope. Beautiful thing is that armies will need to be retooled to face the new menance.

Many phoenix lords will be purchased! Many fire dragons! Dark Eldar will be eagerly needed and desired!

And it will boost Tau, who have their mobile mech/suit answers to Rhino rush and drop pods.

All in all, the new set of rules look damn brilliant in REFRESHING the meta game, which is great for all of us in terms of rebuilding our lists.

And is great for GW in turning over product.

And that actually is great, because fresh fun is better fun.

And a more profitable Gw won't hurt us at all!

OTG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.S.

I think its real kudos to Phil Kelly! You have to appreciate that while we are annoyed, the power of annoyance is rarely as strong as our hobby making impulse. The temptation to make the new army, or the necessity of responding to it, either way its a big win not only for sales, but for our interest.

Precisely what the business id about!

OTG>

Hey guys, just wondering when the codex and models will be coming out? Are we waiting until october?
I.E. Can I get some new space puppies for my sept. 30th b-day?

Now I know why Marbo got into the IG codex: Out of pity, because the Pups can do what he can, except a hundred times better. The same with Sanctioned Psykers, who are utterly raped by Rune Priests in every conceivable way*.

* Sure, the IG didn't need a psychic powerhouse, but neither do the Wolves. Frying people's brains with bolts of lightning isn't an integral part of the space viking schtick.

Orc Town Grot wrote:
The "one attack per enemy in base contact" is obviously Phil Kelly designing around his own orc codex, and the sure way to rape the dreaded Orc Nob squad, since marines always get the initiative.

Indeed here is the perfect Orc Horde crushing army.

I guess greenskins were a little uber the space marines, and we can't have our best selling army beaten in serious competitive game play can we.

So the codex design (as we hear it) is clearly directed at the larger culture and stamping greenskins back in place!

Likewise all the gunk about monster slaying and instant killing is obviously directed at taming that other uber army: nidzilla....

So new wolves will clock up sales a plenty because they will have good results on tables and become the pest removers to get those irritating bugs and green skins in line.

The scary thing is that this actually makes sense. And not even in the weird Paranoia ( "the Computer is your friend" ) kind of style.

Demogerg wrote:

A-P wrote:

reds8n wrote:I think you might find that he actually only gives away a KP if he is NOT killed.

I am still trying to wrap my head around this one. So, basically the Wolves get an automatic 1 KP advantage. It is a win/win situation for them. If I see a frothing, half-insane murderer charging towards my lines, what are my option? 1) Take it like a true Guardsman in CC and lose my unit ( KP for the enemy ) or 2) sacrifice firepower to eliminate him and still lose a KP. Is this sane? Of course not.

well, its actually an automatic Disadvantage untill you kill them

lets say I have 3 of them, if the game were to end on turn 1 before anything was killed, you would win by 3 KPs.

you can play keep-away, and get free KPs for not killing these models (most desirable for you)
you can shoot them to death, and not take any other loses, and kill a point-sink unit (neutral for you, I spend points and waste a slot to soak fire)
you can let them get to you and fight you in close combat (least desirable, you might give me killpoints, or you might take away your own killpoints)

If they don't die then they give up KP. If they do die then I lost some 200 points (bikes + wargear+figs) worth of suicide heroes, which in my mind seams really fragile even with FNP. IMO it is just 2 wounds so they are pretty much bolter fodder...I mean, what else are troops suppose to shoot at? The concept had pontential if they had grouped them into units where they could naturally abuse wound allocation. Off on thier own...Mehh. Plus, their MC prey will often have higher initiate, which means they will get pawned in CC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orc Town Grot wrote:Likewise all the gunk about monster slaying and instant killing is obviously directed at taming that other uber army: nidzilla....

...

Maybe HMBC is right...maybe GW still believes Nidzilla is ZOMG powerfull and that Mech doesn't pawn Tyranids in general. Well if Nids thought they had it rough a few months back, wait till SW comes out...because, lets face it, having one Tyanid player win one major Tournement is simply one too many . Honestly, its like chinese water torture .

wyomingfox wrote:
Maybe HMBC is right...maybe GW still believes Nidzilla is ZOMG powerfull and that Mech doesn't pawn Tyranids in general. Well if Nids thought they had it rough a few months back, wait till SW comes out...because, lets face it, having one Tyanid player win one major Tournement is simply one too many . Honestly, its like chinese water torture .

Or maybe Phil Kelly knows what coming up in the next Codex... which rumor has it, is Tyranids. After all our complaining that any given codex is nerfed by any subsequent codex, maybe they are actually trying to make sure Space Wolves having something in store for the next army released.

Myrthe wrote:

Zathras wrote:

DruidODurham wrote:It's probably the beards and all the extra bitz taking up the space.

No, no, no....the reason the Space Wolf transports have a lower passenger capacity is the space is taken up by the kegs of ale they take with them when they go into battle.

That, I can believe, Zathras !! I wonder if it's in the fluff somewhere !!

I now have the incentive and imagery to spend the time detailing the interiors of my transports !!! Maybe I'll even add spigots and tankards to the outside of them

Well, if you read the Space Wolf novels Haegr, the ogryn sized space marine, was known to carry a supply of ale with him where ever he went. So I wouldn't put it past the Wolves to have a supply of ale with them when they go on campaigns.

As maddening as the inconsistency is, the transport capacities are probably a game-balance issue. This way you can't drop-pod in a GH squad with 2 meltas and a Wolf Guard leader with all his kit. You get either the extra special, or the Wolf Guard.

ubermosher wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:
Maybe HMBC is right...maybe GW still believes Nidzilla is ZOMG powerfull and that Mech doesn't pawn Tyranids in general. Well if Nids thought they had it rough a few months back, wait till SW comes out...because, lets face it, having one Tyanid player win one major Tournement is simply one too many . Honestly, its like chinese water torture .

Or maybe Phil Kelly knows what coming up in the next Codex... which rumor has it, is Tyranids. After all our complaining that any given codex is nerfed by any subsequent codex, maybe they are actually trying to make sure Space Wolves having something in store for the next army released.

Yeah, maybe, just maybe the 'nid codex will offer something to counter njal or whatnot. SW's sound expensive as hell. Go ahead and spend 1k+ pts on HQ, you will get owned hardcore.

Lol 1000 point HQ...you high?

I think he means 1000pts for 4 HQs

No one is saying take 4 HQs, in fact thats rather ludicrous.

SgtDavi wrote:No one is saying take 4 HQs, in fact thats rather ludicrous.

tell that to the Daemons 'dex.

SgtDavi wrote:No one is saying take 4 HQs, in fact thats rather ludicrous.

I will bring 4 HQ.
I will win tourneys too.

I'm chuckling at this news.
I love how Grey Hunters lost Combat Tactics and Combat Squads for Acute Senses, Counter Attack and extra CC weapon and the ability to take two specials (which is waaaay better than special+heavy for an assualt unit) and...went down a point compared to codex marines.
Brilliant! Absolutely stellar.
I look forward to playing a few games against the Mary Sue Marines and seeing what the story is.

Demogerg wrote:

SgtDavi wrote:No one is saying take 4 HQs, in fact thats rather ludicrous.

I will bring 4 HQ.
I will win tourneys too.

Now, now, no bragging till after you have the codex AND trophies in hand

SgtDavi wrote:No one is saying take 4 HQs, in fact thats rather ludicrous.

Ludicrous...or awesome beyond belief???

dienekes96 wrote:

SgtDavi wrote:No one is saying take 4 HQs, in fact thats rather ludicrous.

Ludicrous...or awesome beyond belief???

Awesome and a great way to keep your model count down. That is, IF an Astartes Horde is not your thing. Get as many SW Psykers with that "kill all the clumsy ones" psychic power backed by tooled up Lords. Then fill the rest of the roster with young puppies eager for glory and your set to go.

You need two troop choices. WG are 3-10. If you run Logan, then that is 6 WG (tooled up) required, and add Arjac (for a chunk over 150 points). Buy Njal in TDA. Then another WL in TDA, and round out the total with additional WG in TDA.

I bet you can get a 1750 "army" in under 15 models. You'll get creamed, but man it'll be a bloodbath in CC.

dienekes96 wrote:I bet you can get a 1750 "army" in under 15 models. You'll get creamed, but man it'll be a bloodbath in CC.

The people who play Deathwing/Grey knights should rejoice! You finally get to outnumber someone .

Da Boss wrote:I'm chuckling at this news.
I love how Grey Hunters lost Combat Tactics and Combat Squads for Acute Senses, Counter Attack and extra CC weapon and the ability to take two specials (which is waaaay better than special+heavy for an assualt unit) and...went down a point compared to codex marines.
Brilliant! Absolutely stellar.
I look forward to playing a few games against the Mary Sue Marines and seeing what the story is.

I've managed to bring down previous editions of the wolves with my tac marine gunline, but I'm not so sure I'll be able to maintain that given the sheer cost effectiveness of their basic troop now.

Shuma, i think i may start to use that 3rd HS space in my BA now
Either another baal or a vindi lol.

I think a form of grey horde will be a viable option once the dex hits stores.

A-P wrote:

dienekes96 wrote:

SgtDavi wrote:No one is saying take 4 HQs, in fact thats rather ludicrous.

Ludicrous...or awesome beyond belief???

Awesome and a great way to keep your model count down. That is, IF an Astartes Horde is not your thing. Get as many SW Psykers with that "kill all the clumsy ones" psychic power backed by tooled up Lords. Then fill the rest of the roster with young puppies eager for glory and your set to go.

You can't duplicate characters in the slots I believe. I don't know if this means you can have 2 RP's, both with the ghost wolf power 1 with a plasma pistol 1 with a storm shielf or if it forbids 2 RP's a slot.

The power isn't all that uber guys.

1. You have to pass the test.
2. Only models under the line are affected. Good for sniping powerful characters, naff for whittling down squads since only 1 or 2 people per squad will be hit.
3. It isn't automatic death but based on an init test. That means rolling equal or under the model's initiative. Most IC's which are the characters you want to snipe will be init 5 (and isn't abaddon 6? so auto pass there) and so generally safe from the power. Most other things in the game have a 50% chance of surviving. Don't get me wrong it seems like a useful power but not the uber power people have claimed it is. Carnifexes are screwed though.
4. I obviously don't have the wording right here but I believe it specifies models, not enemy models. So it will take some degree of skill to avoid killing your own troops. Not really an option for space wolves.

wyomingfox wrote:Maybe HMBC is right...maybe GW still believes Nidzilla is ZOMG powerfull and that Mech doesn't pawn Tyranids in general.

Of course I am. And of course they do. There's always a lag with GW when it comes to 'balancing' things, and they're usually an edition behind when it comes to fixing problems (eg. reduce Assault Cannons to 1-in-5 in Terminator Squads and up their points after nerfing Rending in 5th). Come 6th Ed, something will happen that will make Assault Terminators w/Storm Shield nigh on useless, but GW will still over-cost them or significantly reduce their abilities to 'balance' them with 5th Ed.

It comes form the idea that GW designs all their Codices in a vacuum, with no real effort to playtest or do comparisons between units both inside the same Codex (how else do you explain Vets vs Storm Troopers?) and with any external Codices (how else do you explain Ogryn vs Grey Knight Terminators - or any of the 3-4 different versions of the Land Raider Crusader we now have).

'Nidzilla are the premiere Tyranid army (in the previous edition), and are storming through the tournament scene (in the previous edition). They are unstoppable (in the previous edition) and if something isn't done to combat the power they have (in the previous edition) then they'll go on to dominate every army that comes out (in the previous edition). So we'll make Space Wolves ultra-good against 'Nidzilla. That will really put those (previous edition) Tyranid armies in their place!

I 'spose the good side of this is that 'Nids are next, and horde 'Nids will be the new Power Build I suspect, so the problem will go away (kinda - GW will still overbalance 'Nidzilla in the new Codex even thought they don't need to).

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
You can't duplicate characters in the slots I believe. I don't know if this means you can have 2 RP's, both with the ghost wolf power 1 with a plasma pistol 1 with a storm shielf or if it forbids 2 RP's a slot.

The power isn't all that uber guys.

We should get confirmation soon. Little agents are at work all over the globe verifying information. Besides the two RP`s was just an example.

But on the power. It does have limits ( Psychic test, range, Initiative test ) but it is still scary. Not because it can kill big monsters. Not because it has a 50% chance of killing my I3 Guardsmen. But because it apparently has that very rare and coveted ability of being able to single out specific targets. An Ork Nob with a Klaw coming towards your tank? Aim the line at the Nob and laugh all the way to the bank.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:
4. I obviously don't have the wording right here but I believe it specifies models, not enemy models. So it will take some degree of skill to avoid killing your own troops. Not really an option for space wolves.

I don't think you need to worry about hitting the rest of your army. Just keep both of them behind your psyker.

ubermosher wrote:Or maybe Phil Kelly knows what coming up in the next Codex... which rumor has it, is Tyranids. After all our complaining that any given codex is nerfed by any subsequent codex, maybe they are actually trying to make sure Space Wolves having something in store for the next army released.

Except that shouldn't be the way to design codexes. And it certainly doesn't help that they managed to:
Make them better in CC than BA (and arguably Khorne Berzerkers)
Make them better at Psychic suppression (and potentially ability) than Eldar
Make them better at Termies than DA
Make them better overall than basic Marines

They also make sure they kill multi-wound creatures (because we all know that multi-wound creatures have a lot going for them )

Now, I say all that with the caveat that this same gnashing of teeth was done before the marine dex as well, and we see how powerful they were (and all the inconsistent rumors).

We'll have to see the actual rules and costs for it all...

Cruentus wrote:

ubermosher wrote:Or maybe Phil Kelly knows what coming up in the next Codex... which rumor has it, is Tyranids. After all our complaining that any given codex is nerfed by any subsequent codex, maybe they are actually trying to make sure Space Wolves having something in store for the next army released.

Except that shouldn't be the way to design codexes. And it certainly doesn't help that they managed to:
Make them better in CC than BA (and arguably Khorne Berzerkers)
Make them better at Psychic suppression (and potentially ability) than Eldar
Make them better at Termies than DA
Make them better overall than basic Marines

They also make sure they kill multi-wound creatures (because we all know that multi-wound creatures have a lot going for them )

Now, I say all that with the caveat that this same gnashing of teeth was done before the marine dex as well, and we see how powerful they were (and all the inconsistent rumors).

We'll have to see the actual rules and costs for it all...

Better in cc than BA I'll grant you. They were also beter in cc than BA in 2nd and 3rd ed. Your point? As for berserkers the only thing that compares is a BC. For 5 pts more the berserker rocks fearless nd extra attack every round not just on the charge, ws 5 vs ws 3 and furious charge. More attacks, at higher init, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's. Yeah berserkers suck compared to SW. Combos with ragnar will change things up and wolf guard are powerful too but I don't think khorne will be too upset here.

Better at psychic supression is restricted to one character. Regular RP's don't even have a psychic hood. And as argued above the one power everyone talks about is really not that uber. It is basically just a slightly different version of mind war.

Better at termies? At 1500 pts with the rumoured pts cost Logan and just some TH/SS termies and nothing else will max out at about 26 terminators. An identical DA force will have about 40 terminators. The DA can deepstrike, the SW can not. I know who I'd pick to win the fight. SW can now do an all termie army but it isn't really competing with DA.

Better than basic marines? Maybe, but I think combat squads helps out marines a lot more than you're taking into account. A SW force averages about 4 scoring units and can only really get more if you're prepared to ignore all the toys entirely. A SM force can run 6 or 8 scoring units easily just due to combat squads.

well... they are all better at shooting then tau....

frgsinwntr wrote:well... they are all better at shooting then tau....

So are my orks.

Seriously guys, they sound like an excellent cc focused MEQ army with a smaller but equally more elite force.

There should be some fun varied builds out of this (mechanised, all cavalry, all wolf guard, all bikes, footslogging big packs with fenrisian wolves up front, drop pod assault, character heavy hero hammer) only a few of which are going to be tourney viable. All this talk that they'll do everything better than everybody else is nonsense and you know it.

Rune Priests don't need a hood. Even basic 100pt Rune Priests stop any successful psychic power on a 4+. That is the wording. So they can only affect things you take a test to use (i.e. warlocks are safe) and they do stop them on a 4+. Njal is basically just better at it. I probably won't be using the straight line power. There are some seriously nasty powers in that book.

What the feth?

Can Phil Kelly for once not write some blatantly overpowered garbage?

First Eldar, then Orks, and now this. Not bad. Three in a row.

I wonder what the army that is winning all the tournaments will be? Blood Claw spam?

And how can these Space Wolf psykers be more powerful than Eldar psykers? How does that even work? As if the Eldar hadn't been nerfed enough, right?

Sigh.

It's really starting to bother me how GW's been making up units that -at the very least- have never been supported by previous fluff. The latest wtf moment I ran into with a codex was psyker battle squads. there's supposed to be one psyker in what? a million? and yet here you are with up to thirty in an army.
now we have not only packs of wolves who are apparently smart enough to follow a battle plan without their own personal dog whisperer but power armored 7 foot tall super soldiers riding WOLVES?
and on top of that our space vikings now have awesome psychic powers and the ability to shut down even the most powerful psykers in the galaxy?

I'd be the first person to tell you that Space wolves need a new codex but they need an Update not ridiculous units based on retconned fluff

/Rant off

old news. the same thing happened in 2nd and 3rd editions; we just got it easy when it came to wolf cheddar in 4th. now it's time to pay the piper. that being said, call me a hypocrit because i'll be using their rules for my BAs. it'll be nice to actually have my tactical squads be useful in close combat again as well as have a physical codex between my fingers.

@Vlad

Eldar aren't winning tournaments regularly especially here in Socal, they have one uber unit (seer council) and that is it. As for SW psykers being more powerful that is purley exaggeration. They are now slightly better than eldar (9/17 succeed if you take the anti-psyker stones) at stopping psychic powers. SW have a 50% chance but don't cause the enemy to hurt himself 7/17% of the time. IF you wanna go fluff you've got guys from a culture that is based around appeasing the gods and protecting yourself from evil spirits. Makes sense they'd be better at protection.

And Orks have dropped a notch to in the last few months as far as winning armies. They had a year of pure win w/one major tourney being based on an idea no one had seen before and the rest of the year being based on people not adjusting to the huge meta-game shift they caused. They certainly aren't broken or uber now.

Having seen the codex I have to say I like it. It gives me the chance to build the Marine list i've always enjoyed (i.e. characterful and uniquely armed squad leaders) that the current codexes have taken from me. The points for most of the gear is very high and will equal out the excellent low cost troops. You'll probably be fielding as many SW's as most marine armies field marines.

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:It's really starting to bother me how GW's been making up units that -at the very least- have never been supported by previous fluff.

That's the natural end result of GW's business model. There's only so many times you can release Malibu Stacey with a new hat before people get tired of buying a slightly different version of something they already own.

Look at the current Space Marine Codex - Vanguard, Sternguard, Thunderfire Cannons, Land Speeder Storm, Land Raider Redeemer. All of these are new. Why are they new? Because it simply isn't economically feasible to recut the Tactical Squad or Assault Squad sprues again, and the Commander, Command and Devastator Squad sprues are all very new (comparatively). It was good for the Land Speeder and Scout Bikers, they combine all Land Speeder the kits in one which allows them to eliminate two inventory types from the range (the hybrid Typhoon and Tornado), and also eliminate hybrids which is good for the bottom line and worth the expense of making a set of new moulds.

But could they redo anything else?

The Van/Sternguard and Thunderfire Cannon are all metal, so they're cheaper to make (and if they prove a success they can be redone in plastic next edition). The Redeemer is what made re-doing the Crusader worthwhile. They want to get rid of hybrid kits so they made a new Land Raider type to justify the new sprue (notice the new sprue contains all the accessories, so you don't need to include any of the regular Land Raider sprues other than the body/tracks) and therefore kills two birds with one stone. The Storm was the only true new kit with the Marine Codex - the only plastic release that wasn't re-cut or re-release of something we already had.

Chaos got a recut Marine, replacement Terminators, and actual Possessed Kit. What else did they get? Nothing. Next time around they will probably get a new Bike kit, maybe plastic Raptors and a recut Berzerker sprue, because it wouldn't be worth re-re-doing the Chaos Marine kit again, nor re-cutting the very new Termies or Possessed.

And this is a fine concept. However, when you mix good concepts with GW-level execution, things tend to fall on their ass. Take Guard. Loads of new units. Heaps! Psyker Squads, Penal Legionnaires, 2 new Hellhound types, the Valk, the Vendetta, 5 new types of Russ, 5 new types of artillery, the Hydra. And we got new models for all of... wait... no we didn't. There are no Psyker Models, no Legionnaires, no Vendetta, no Exterminator, Vanquisher or Eradicator. No Griffon. No Colossus, no Deathstrike, no Manticore, no Medusa. No Hydra. Now, some of these were already made by FW (or were going to be in the case of the Vendetta), but GW has never relied on FW to fill the gaps in their Codices before. They only things we did get are a Command Squad to eliminate metal models, a recut Sentinel (which had to include new options and necessitate a new Codex entry to justify the cost of making it all plastic), the Valkyrie (the only true new plastic kit) and new non-hybrid Demolisher and Hellhound kits (and, again, to justify their transfer to plastic they each contain two additional variants - especially the Demolisher as it had already been redone once during the last Codex revision). Where are the rest? Lost to the ether of 'waves' that may or may not ever happen.

With Wolves we have the better situation. They're getting a re-cut 'catch all' sprue that covers all their basic units, similar to the Dark Angel and Black Templar sprues. And they get new Terminators to bring them in line with the current crop. Ok, great. That works fine. They'll sell a million. And luckily they'll mesh with everything in the Marine line that already exists so nothing really needs to be done. Except these Wolves. Even as a metal release ala Blood Crushers it would have worked, but no, we get nothing. We don't get boxes of Wolves either. Are these going to be in Wave 2? Are the Wolves going to even have a second Wave?

Tyranids will be a good test of this. We've heard that we're getting 4 new species. Why? Because they can't redo everything again. Chances are that all but one of these new releases will be metal, as to avoid any serious outlay on materials and the cost of new expensive new plastic moulds. And they have to pull new units out of thin air because after enough cycles everyone owns everything and there's no incentive to buy outside of the 'new hat' re-cuts (that said, re-cut Tyranid Warriors makes perfect sense).

H.B.M.C. wrote: ... but GW has never relied on FW to fill the gaps in their Codices before...

Up until about a year / year and a half ago, Space Marine Drop Pods disagree with this statement. I remember shelling out $300 for a trio of FW pods for my Wolves at the start of 4th ed. Wasn't until the 5th ed release that the plastic pod kit released.

Further, Ork Battlewagons were a DIY/FW kit til the recent kits. While their more recent policy seems to have been "a model for every codex option", it most certainly hasn't always been that way.

The rest of your thesis looks semi solid. As far as unit of wolves, there's always the Fantasy Range Dire Wolves to fall back on (something the 13th Coy players were doing back when EoT popped. I picked up 20 blisters of these when I "graduated" to a 13th Coy army) only drawback is they come as blisters of 2, resulting in them being as expensive as Terminators.
(following not directed at H.B.M.C.)
Also, autonomous wolf packs have been used by 13th Coy, so isn't really a "new" concept. If you want a fluff justification of them, imagine them being let loose at the start of the fight and play them accordingly (if you so desire).

warboss wrote:old news. the same thing happened in 2nd and 3rd editions; we just got it easy when it came to wolf cheddar in 4th. now it's time to pay the piper. that being said, call me a hypocrit because i'll be using their rules for my BAs. it'll be nice to actually have my tactical squads be useful in close combat again as well as have a physical codex between my fingers.

Hypocrite.


Just kidding.



Wait, no I'm not...

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:

warboss wrote:old news. the same thing happened in 2nd and 3rd editions; we just got it easy when it came to wolf cheddar in 4th. now it's time to pay the piper. that being said, call me a hypocrit because i'll be using their rules for my BAs. it'll be nice to actually have my tactical squads be useful in close combat again as well as have a physical codex between my fingers.

Hypocrite.


Just kidding.



Wait, no I'm not...

you don't have to be because i wasn't either. i'm just not a die hard SW player who has to invent an imaginary plight of the "poor sw codex" or try to rewrite history to make SW look like sad pandas when the past 10 years have been great for the wolves with only a 5th edition slight below average power level (lasting a tiny bit over a year!) i can smell the gouda and am not afraid to smear it all over my BA marine sandwich! hooray for all the newly christened loganwing and ravenwolf armies! three cheers for the blood wolves! can i get a what!, what! for the black wolf legion and logabaddon grimdespoiler! i suspect we'll be seeing a bunch of "counts as" armies in the FLGS soon.

Well one of my spies has reported that the Space Wolf Codex brings Codex Creep to a "whole new level".

As someone who's never had any real interest in Space Wolves and therefore has no vested interest (beyond the obvious 'it sucks even more now to be a Chaos player' line), all I can say is:

Let the whining begin!!!!!!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well one of my spies has reported that the Space Wolf Codex brings Codex Creep to a "whole new level".

As someone who's never had any real interest in Space Wolves and therefore has no vested interest (beyond the obvious 'it sucks even more now to be a Chaos player' line), all I can say is:

Let the whining begin!!!!!!

I've been ahead of the curve for months. If only people had listened to me earlier, they could have started whining a lot sooner.

I swear the collective memory of 40k fans would embarass a goldfish.

No new army has ever broken the game. No new army has ever been so good that it was unbeatable even after people adjusted to it or the next few codecii were released.

Every new codex, every single bloody one we get cries of "cheese" "broken" "can't phil kelly tone it down" "I may as well sell all my models" and then within three months its back to normal or whining about the next lot.

It wasn't so long ago that you were all predicting that 9 vendettas filled with vets would destory every army on the table without a hope in hell.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong.

Wolves will be fine. Have you seen some of the pts costs? 60pt termies? They'll be a small elite force with units that excel but not many bodies on the field. Like chaos, or daemonhunters. You'll get stomped by them a few times until you learn target priority and how to counter common tactics and then it'll be a level playing field again.

Yeah, what were we thinking? GW has never disappointed us before...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Tyranids will be a good test of this. We've heard that we're getting 4 new species. Why? Because they can't redo everything again. Chances are that all but one of these new releases will be metal, as to avoid any serious outlay on materials and the cost of new expensive new plastic moulds. And they have to pull new units out of thin air because after enough cycles everyone owns everything and there's no incentive to buy outside of the 'new hat' re-cuts (that said, re-cut Tyranid Warriors makes perfect sense).

What I find disheartening about all this is this: There's no way GW can pull another 5-10 units out of their collective backsides when it's time to redo the IG book again in 4 years' time. An armylist cannot keep growing and growing forever, so in a sense, in a sense, this feels like the final iteration. There's nothing new they can introduce into the game to make it interesting again after the current crop of remakes is complete. Space Marines already have units for everything.

I get the same feeling for Marines as well.

What do they do next time? 4 more special characters, a re-cut Predator and Assault Squad and... and... what??? Re-cut Dread? Re-cut Bike? You can't base a release of re-cut items. It doesn't work.

Agamemnon2 wrote:There's no way GW can pull another 5-10 units out of their collective backsides when it's time to redo the IG book again in 4 years' time.

Unless they don't release some of the new vehicles at all, saving them for the next edition? And plastic Ogryn and Storm Troopers would be next.

[EDIT]: Actually, come to think of it, they can keep pulling new units out of thin air for the rest of time if they're all as stupid as Marines riding Wolves.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Tyranids will be a good test of this. We've heard that we're getting 4 new species. Why? Because they can't redo everything again. Chances are that all but one of these new releases will be metal, as to avoid any serious outlay on materials and the cost of new expensive new plastic moulds. And they have to pull new units out of thin air because after enough cycles everyone owns everything and there's no incentive to buy outside of the 'new hat' re-cuts (that said, re-cut Tyranid Warriors makes perfect sense).

There's nothing new they can introduce into the game to make it interesting again after the current crop of remakes is complete.

The Hrud!

Oh good. Another race to have sit there for years without additional support.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
What I find disheartening about all this is this: There's no way GW can pull another 5-10 units out of their collective backsides when it's time to redo the IG book again in 4 years' time. An armylist cannot keep growing and growing forever, so in a sense, in a sense, this feels like the final iteration. There's nothing new they can introduce into the game to make it interesting again after the current crop of remakes is complete. Space Marines already have units for everything.

They'll just go through a "streamlining" phase.
The CSM Codex is still pretty new and I'm sure you can imagine at least a dozen new units that could be included in the next one

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh good. Another race to have sit there for years without additional support.

Bring Squats on their Big Wheels back?

This sounds like another paper tiger. Despite my reservations about the unit, people got very hot and sweaty about Sternguard, and we all know how effective they turned out to be.

I'd be very surprised if this challenges Eldar or Chaos for the GT.

Well last week I came very close to buying an ironclad for my wolves, very glad I didnt now cuz that woulda sucked. The lack of any generic character models is disapointing but the plastic kits will most likley cover that, also was hoping for a new ragnar, sadly no, and, like guard there are a few wolfie units with no mini support as of yet (but not as many as guard).

I feel like the whole of Dakka is locked in a time loop

New Chaos - Lash whine
Orks - horde whine
SM - general spactz marinez whine
Guard - zomzorg tanks whine
Space Wolfs - Njal/Claws whine

A permanent deja vu

His Master's Voice wrote:I feel like the whole of Dakka is locked in a time loop

New Chaos - Lash whine
Orks - horde whine
SM - general spactz marinez whine
Guard - zomzorg tanks whine
Space Wolfs - Njal/Claws whine

A permanent deja vu

Lash is annoying and overpowered and has lead to a massive drop in list diversity for chaos. Whining is justified.
The Horde cause whining mostly because the metagame had to shift. I don't hear that many people whining now, or in fact that many people running horde. The justified whining is that Horde takes an age to play.
SM are widely hated, but as far as I can remember the whining was mostly confined to how bad the fluff bit of the codex was, and a bit about Vulkan being too good. Vulkan lists are the most popular by far, so I guess that wasn't wrong.
Guard - I haven't played it, but I do think the whining here might have been a little pessimistic.

As for wolves, the whining is split into a few different sections, and several of the complaints are perfectly justified. There are plenty of people saying "awesome" too.
People who whine about whining...why?
Of course now I'm causing a potentially infinite recursive loop by whining about people whining about whining...

H.B.M.C. wrote:I get the same feeling for Marines as well.

What do they do next time? 4 more special characters, a re-cut Predator and Assault Squad and... and... what??? Re-cut Dread? Re-cut Bike? You can't base a release of re-cut items. It doesn't work.

Agamemnon2 wrote:There's no way GW can pull another 5-10 units out of their collective backsides when it's time to redo the IG book again in 4 years' time.

Unless they don't release some of the new vehicles at all, saving them for the next edition? And plastic Ogryn and Storm Troopers would be next.

[EDIT]: Actually, come to think of it, they can keep pulling new units out of thin air for the rest of time if they're all as stupid as Marines riding Wolves.

Actually, I would guess that what they will do is further plastic-ize the army. Multi-part character boxes, and they will recut sprues to include all the options that should have been included the LAST time they recut the sprue. And they will jack up the prices accordingly.

So in an edition or two we should get a tactical box that has one of every special and one of every heavy weapon, plus an assortment of bitz for the sergeant's options.

Either that, or suddenly marines will all have cavalry. Marines riding space horses? Or marines riding Tyranids?

Seriousness though, here's a few I can think of they haven't done. Enough to fill a couple waves

All in plastic:
Dreadnought drop pod
re-done vehicles with extra armor in plastic
dreadnoughts (need mortis, plasma cannon
Space Marine power armor commander box with every option (missing jump pack, thunder hammers, second lightning claw...)
Space marine terminator armor commander box with every option
Ditto for Chaplains and librarians (one box in power armor, one in terminator armor)
Honor guard boxed set
Master of the forge/techmarine with conversion beamer
Command squad with every option (plenty of CCW missing from that box)

And that's just in the HQ section and a few things off the top of my head. And honestly, they can up costs for all of that, and a good chunk of it I would buy.

Fear not Space Marine players. There is still plenty of things for GW to charge you for.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I swear the collective memory of 40k fans would embarass a goldfish.

No new army has ever broken the game. No new army has ever been so good that it was unbeatable even after people adjusted to it or the next few codecii were released.

Every new codex, every single bloody one we get cries of "cheese" "broken" "can't phil kelly tone it down" "I may as well sell all my models" and then within three months its back to normal or whining about the next lot.

It wasn't so long ago that you were all predicting that 9 vendettas filled with vets would destory every army on the table without a hope in hell.

Do you ever get tired of being wrong.

Wolves will be fine. Have you seen some of the pts costs? 60pt termies? They'll be a small elite force with units that excel but not many bodies on the field. Like chaos, or daemonhunters. You'll get stomped by them a few times until you learn target priority and how to counter common tactics and then it'll be a level playing field again.

Here here . This is one of the most insightful posts I've seen on Dakka in a long time. I feel you've knocked the nail on the head. I remember the Ork codex and the cries of cheese-laden dispair from gamers at my local club, yet after a short while no one thinks any more of it.
Space Wolves are going to be hard as nails, but small on numbers. Plus at 250-ish points I can't see many instances where you're going to come across Njal and his uber psychic-ness.
I'm going to collect Wolves, but I'll also be gaming with my Nids most of the time and I know that most gamers I play who will also do wolves will make a fun army, one fitting with their character, so they should be enjoyable games. I'm looking forward to the challenge of facing a new foe, nothing a Nid horde army like mine loves more then small numbered hardcore armies, c'mon weight of numbers!.
If people do make 'cheesey' army lists then just don't play them.

lord_blackfang wrote:They'll just go through a "streamlining" phase.

Which is to say they'll arbitrarily remove units from the codex, only to reintroduce them in the edition after that. Kind of like they did with exterminators, griffons and vanquishers.

Wannabe Writer wrote:Here here . This is one of the most insightful posts I've seen on Dakka in a long time. I feel you've knocked the nail on the head. I remember the Ork codex and the cries of cheese-laden dispair from gamers at my local club, yet after a short while no one thinks any more of it.

I wouldn't call that insight per se, it's really nothing more than the constant "No, everything is fine!" mewling we've been subjected since time immemorial, when GW removed Genestealer Cults and Arbites.

When one codex can effectively shift the metagame of entire tournament scenes from one type of play to another, then there is at least some justification for concern. Saying that things DIDN'T happen because new codex got x and y can be just as bad as saying certain things WILL because it also got a and b.

As has been repeatedly said, people said the exact same things about the past several codices upon the immediate pre-release/early release phase. It died down quickly.

Looking at the rumors as a Space Wolf player, I see a really nice buff to GH (160 points for 10 GH with Bolter/BP/CCW and two meltas in the squad), as of yet unknown status of BC (they'll be made or broken on special weapon allowance), potentially well-priced bike/jump pack troops, and then a long, long list of not-quite-deathstar power special characters for deathstar costs.

I mean, seriously. Njal looks to be really good, but he doesn't look 250 points good. As people are wont to, they're focusing on imagined lists of nothing but high-cost special characters. The strong SW lists are vastly more likely to be those focused on fielding a lot of power armored bodies efficiently.

It's looking like my guestimate of the new codex a couple of years ago is coming in line -- reduced prices on GH, drastically reduced prices on bikers/jumpers, and a shuffling around of special characters.

I don't even think this is going to significantly change the metagame, as the best SW lists will probably look a lot like the current best SM lists; Blood Claws will likely provide more differentiation from vanilla SMs than any of the drooled-on/reviled/ridiculed special characters.

For me, the big deal for blood claws is the supposed ONE special CCW we get. Can anyone confirm? If so, dreadful news.

The one special CCW for GH also sucks, but isn't as dire to me.

Also, the new wording of berserk charge. +1 additional attack on charge, but if within 6" during the shooting phase cannot shoot? Even though all they have is pistols and assault weapons and could therefore charge even if they DID shoot? Lame. I'll see when I have the book in my hands.

Excited about jump pack marines though. From the sound of certain things, they may replace my blood claws on foot entirely.

Deleted my previous Post and provided a new updated compilation with Rumors from the multiple threads:

Ect:
I saw the release schedule at my local GW, The Space Wolf second wave (within a wave) is coming out 22nd october.

General Rules:

Space Wolves have ATSKNF, Acute Senses, and Counter attack

Drop Pods and Drop Pod Assault is available though capacity is 10. Rhinos and Razorbacks are the same as SM.What? Grey transports have less capacity? Epic fail .

HQ:

Sagas change the objectives in the game in some cases, some are army wide some are individual based. Commanders – 2 sagas, other HQ get only one. Special characters come with them, like Ragnar is re rolls 1‘s. Saga of the Bear grants eternal warrior, and only the wolf lord can take it. Saga of Majesty grants all units within 6" may reroll morale or pinning, another grants cover for the wolfs. Saga of the Warrior Born" you get more attacks the following round equal to the number of his CC kills in the previous turn. Saga of the iron wolf gives +d3 movement to the transport but doesnt mention that the vehicle counts as moving its previous speed like red paint does. Saga of the hunter says "the character" has outflank and stealth, Wolfpriest only. Stealth is passed onto the unit he joins, but outflank is not a USR and it does not mention it in rulebook. Saga of Majesty: All friendly units within 6" get to re-roll failed morale checks. Saga of the Beast Killer: Re-roll to hit and wound against models of T5 or higher. It seems that all of the Sagas are 25 points or higher. Sagas can not be duplicated through the army, and neither can wargear combinations. If outflank transfers to the unit he joins, then I am liking the idea of the Hunter saga...and look, they gave vehicle "running" cause, you know, vehicles just don't have enough advantages in 5th

.

May take 2 HQ per slot but no duplicates (so no 2 wolf lords or rune priests, etc...)

Wolf Lord (100pts): 4 Base Attacks. No Invulnerable Save.

Wolf Guard Battle Leader: WGBL lost the heavy weapon

Ragnar gives himself and the unit he joins d3 extra attacks on the charge. he already has 5 built in and with WS6 and S5 thanks to his Sword. He can howl once per game and all units nearby get Furious Charge. Re rolls 1s. I give you 5th ed. Bararoth

Runepriests (100pts): Runic weapon doubles as a special kind of psychic hood. 24" range like hood, but on a 4+, power fails. New magic no gates, but storm is 24” - gives 5+ cover and turns zone of usage into difficult terrain for skimmers etc. There is also a lightning attack: Psychic shooting attack, 24" line is drawn, all non-vehicle models under the line must make an Iniative test (That means rolling equal or under the model's initiative), models that fail are removed from the board, can hit friendly units, no LOS needed, Monstrous Creatures get -1 bonus on the roll, 6 always fails. Another psychic attack is called Hurricane, forcing numerous str 3 hits on a target, and making its next turn movement count as being in difficult AND dangerous terrain.

Njal casts 3 powers per turn, cancels all psychic attacks on 3+ within 24". You don’t roll for ld, you just plainly cancel them. Njal Storm Caller has a storm whose effects build up over the course of the battle.... its not a psychic test power, the storm just automatically builds each turn he lives. The effects can range from minor (-1BS for all models in 24") to major, in roughly a two foot circumference. The Chooser of the Slain lets you put a marker on the board that doesn't allow infiltrating near it. Awesome rules for an awesome model

Wolfpriests (100pts): As for wolf priests there is NO FNP, or re rolls to hit like Litanes of Hate, they have preferred enemy against 1 type of unit. I believe they might pass this ability onto a unt they join. And it's TYPE of unit ( infantry, bikes, cavalry) etc...Lame

Techpriests: 75 points each, 2 attacks, built in hammer, can take mechanical wolves.

Canis (185 points): Gets 2 wounds, 3 attacks +1 for pair of Wolf Claws, T 5 and S 5, cavalry, Hits on 3+ in CC, and can re roll to wound, can give his unit an amount of attacks equal to the number of models in the squad he charges. Canis is riding a huge wolf. He allows Fen. Wolf pack to become Troops. Canis has 5 base attacks but if he gets surrounded he goes crazy and get one attack for every model in base contact.

Ulrik gives the unit he joins preferred enemy against a unit type he chooses at the start of the game. He makes his squad toughness 5.

Logan Grimnar (275 points): allows to take wolf guards as troops. Eternal warrior. Grimnar gives all units in his army +1 attack if they are within 18 inches. He also has the ability to change the special rules of the unit he is attached to every turn: Fearless, Tank Hunters, Preferred Enemy and relentless.

Bjorn is 270, amour 13/12/10 with a built in 5+ inv. save he is also a ven dread. He allows you to reroll for table edge/first turn. He comes with a assault cannon but you can give him a plasma cannon for FREE with a BS 0f 6!!!! he has 4 base attacks at I3 and WS6. he allows all friendly units with (iirc) 12" to reroll moral. If he is killed all SW become fearless and becomes a new objective to be captured. 270 points huh...I can get a LRC for less

Elites:

Wolf Scouts: Stay the same, but they have only one special gun, 2 power weapons, Behind Enemy lines on a 1 you come in on the right short side of the table, a 2 on the left, 3-6 anywhere you want. Full sized squad can have 2 Plasma Pistols or Power Weapons, plus a Special Weapon. Every Model can have a Boltgun for free or a Sniper Rifle for 3 points. Sarge can’t take fist. Great, now it is random

No LS Storm

Dreads: Similar to SM starting with a free MM or Assault Cannon. No Ironclad. Venerable dreads can take saga of majesty (reroll failed morale if unit within 6"). Dreads and ven dreads can take wolftail talisman and wolftooth necklace

There’s no wolfen and there won’t be any

Wolf Guard: 18 pts. 3-10 in a Squad. Start with PA, Bolt Pistol, Bolt Gun, and CCW. HUGE list of war gear: from bikes and jump packs to TDA & TH & SS to combi-weapons and claws and frost blades. Also, they can leave their own squad and join troops, fast attack, and Wolf Scouts (in case of FA they mount bikes or wear jump packs). He hits on 3's, rerolls to hit and to wound against monstrous creatures

Arjak (170pts): an upgrade for the wolf guard so he’s not an IC, STR 10 Thunderhammer and Storm Shield. He throws the hammer 6" at S10 AP1 assault 1 and he gets an extra attack for his storm shield.

Terminators: 33pts with Terminator Armor, PW and SB. Cost of item depends on which weapon your replacing. Dual Wolf Claws is 48pts. TH/SS is 58pts. and PF/SB is 43pts. WGT can have 1 heavy weapon (AC and Cyclones) per 5 WGTs, squad size is 3-10. No teleportation’s deep strike, but have access to drop pods. Shields give 3++. TDA costs 15 points, it makes all upgrades cheaper – shield is 15 pts, claws is 10 (2 claws is 15), Power fist is 10. Well I guess I won't be fielding TH/SS combos

Lone Wolves is 20 points base. They act independantly...like Nid Zoes. WS 5 with 2 wounds, eternal warrior, feel no pain and re-rolls to hit against Walkers, Monstrous Creatures and things above T5. They are also really angry and have lots of options. Lone Wolves only gives away a KP if one is NOT killed. Compared to 58 pt SM terminators these guys are awesome...unless they act independantly, then they are horrible due to KP craziness

Troops:

Blood Claws: 15 pts each. BS and WS 3, 8 ld. Berserk charge(+2 attacks on charge) is there for ALL blood claw stuff. They can get one PF or PW and one discounted special gun at 5 men and a free special gun at 15. All blood claw units, whether bikes, jump packs, or whatever, have headstrong as a rule. If an enemy unit in your SHOOTING phase is within 6", you may not shoot and must charge in the assault phase. Headstrong rule is removed if the BC squads are led by Wolf Guard.

The Lukas the Trickster is a BC unit upgrade. Lukas has the "Doppleganger hide/cape/skin" that forces the enemy to re roll all his successful to-hit rolls. Lukas the Trickster had his secondary heart ripped out by a Dark Eldar, and he had it replaced with a stasis bomb. The rule is called "the last laugh", each model in base contact rolls a D6 if Lukas rolls equal or higher then they are dead. Not instant death, but removed from play. ...I am so sending this guy's squad against a Titan

Greys Hunters: 15 pts each. 1 attack in profile, 8 ld. CSM style (bp + ccw+ bolter) and grenades. They get 2 specials for 10 man, 1 for 5 guys. First melta costs 5, if you get another five guys you get another melta for free, Plasma Gun is a 10 pt upgrade. Plus they can get 1 PF or PW and one Plasma Pistol. They can take a totem: it allows them to re roll 1. One model can also take mark of the wulfen (1 model gets 1+d6 attacks, doesn't stack with special weapons). PW and PF upgrades for BC's and GH's are the same cost as sergeant upgrades in the SM Codex.

Fast Attack:

Sky Claws (18pts ): BS and WS 3. Blood Claws with Jump Packs

Blood Claw Bikes (25 pts): BS and WS 3. Squad Size 10 plus 1 attack bike. The attack bike is discounted due to being WS3/BS3. The bikers all have CCW/BP which means 4 attacks on the charge. 1 PW or PF. Only get one special gun and are ld 8.

Fenrisian wolves: 4 attacks, 6+ Save and cavalry. 8 points each and 4 WS. Not bad. Combine these with a Wolf Riding Heroe who has stealth and outflank and these might be pretty good

No separate units of attack bikes

Thunderwolf Riders (50pts): 4 attacks, 2 wounds, 5 toughness and strength, cavalry, rending on the charge, can take fist(10), hammer(15), etc. Squads of 1-5.

Heavies:

LR, LRR, and LRC are in the dex

No Thunder fire Cannon

Long Fangs (15pts): Can shoot at two targets at time if their sarge weren’t shooting. Now there can be 7 of them and kit 5 out with heavy weapons. leadership 9. Heavy bolters are 5 points, missiles 10, plasma 20, lascannons 25(not as cool as relentless LF in a rhino but it is an improvement)

Wargear:

They have the same space marine wargear, but it’s cheaper: combi-weapon - 5, fist - 20, frostblade - 20, hammer - 25, storm shield - 25

Cost for claws differs, but they can re roll either to-hit or to-wound.

Frost is a power weapon which gives +1 STR, it’s not two-handed.

There is banner (banner of the wolf I think it was called) and when used lets you re roll all "to hit" rolls in combat for the entire army for one turn.

Elites or Fast attack may include Space Wolves that ride on Cybernetically enhanced Fenrisian Wolves. They have S5 T5 and grant rending. They are 50pts a model. Every HQ lord can take one of the Wolves for a cost listed in their Wargear.

Runic Weapons wound Daemons on a 2+

Wolf tooth necklaces: Always hit on a 3+ in CC

wolftail talisman: nulifies psychic power targetting model on 5+

No Runic Charm

Belt of Russ:4+ Invulnerable

Im not doomsaying or anything, and I don't think this dex is going to be "overpowered"; a small army of Meqs is going to need nasty stuff to stay in the game. I'm just pointing out that while predicting the end of all life because a codex is silly, it is still helpful, because it tells us how the metagame will shift to deal with what people see as threats and what often turns out to be real threats. Sternguard aren't overpowered, but certainly people use them. Vulkan is certainly used to a great degree. At the time of release, Horde Orks existed and was a real army to contend with. When Guard came out, Mechvet was a real army people either used or dealt with, and still do. Heck, my Nid army is still trying to beat some of these things. Saying that "hey you guys stop complaining everything is gonna be fine you so dumb ", (yeah I exaggerated), seems to ignore these possibilities in the rush to put someone else down on the internet, deserved or not.


Now for the Wolves, it seems that the one special per Blood Claw squad is corraborated in a few places, so it might be solid. I thought that was interesting about them, that they could go to battle with all sorts of weaponry, even though they were new recruits, that would normally be assigned in an orderly manner by other chapters.

It's one special CCW availabe in BC and GH squads. Both squads get 1 special weapon that is discounted no matter how many guys you take and both get a second one free when they are at full strength (10 for GH, 15 for BC).

Railguns wrote:Now for the Wolves, it seems that the one special per Blood Claw squad is corraborated in a few places, so it might be solid. I thought that was interesting about them, that they could go to battle with all sorts of weaponry, even though they were new recruits, that would normally be assigned in an orderly manner by other chapters.

Yeah, unfortunately. Makes me glad I didn't fully 5e-ify my SW army; I ran GH over BC about 3:1 in 4e, but felt BC were the better troop choice in 5e (and would have drastically more BCs). If this set of rumors (or, really, at this point, less rumors and more imperfectly relayed memories...) is correct, I'm not sure I'd take BCs on foot; GHs with price drop do their job almost as well and stack a lot more shooting.

I should retract my earlier comment; depending on special weapon allotment, the big difference between SW and SM lists will probably be that SW actually put jumpers in competitive lists; the Skyclaws look really good.

Now I just need to finish up my Salamanders and get to working on wolves again; I've still got four unopened SM Assault Squad boxes from the SM Company box set when 5e came out, and it looks like they're getting built as Skyclaws.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:No new army has ever broken the game.

Daemons in Fantasy seems to be pretty darn close, like Brets in Fantasy before. Compared with introducing Tau and Dameons, 40k doesn't have nearly the same balance issues. I don't know why that is.
___

Wraithlordmechanic wrote:It's really starting to bother me how GW's been making up units that -at the very least- have never been supported by previous fluff. The latest wtf moment I ran into with a codex was psyker battle squads. there's supposed to be one psyker in what? a million? and yet here you are with up to thirty in an army.

Yeah, I found this strange, myself. The new SM book is rife with this: LS Storm, Thunderfire, and Redeemer in particular caused me a WTF? moment. As a long-time IG player, the IG Codex decisions were just baffling.
____

Agamemnon2 wrote:What I find disheartening about all this is this: There's no way GW can pull another 5-10 units out of their collective backsides when it's time to redo the IG book again in 4 years' time. An armylist cannot keep growing and growing forever, so in a sense, in a sense, this feels like the final iteration.

And yet, in 4 to 6 years, GW will certainly add something or other to the IG book. Probably Salamanders as Fast Attack. Because they can, and because they need to drive new sales.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Which is to say they'll arbitrarily remove units from the codex, only to reintroduce them in the edition after that. Kind of like they did with exterminators, griffons and vanquishers.

Yup, expect to see other things consolidate (Vanquisher = ordnary Russ). Or drop (like the Griffon & Exterminator in the previous IG Codex, and remember those things called "Doctrines"). Or how about Guard Beastmen Regiments and IG Jetbikes if you want to go back to the 2E Codex? And Human Bombs? Yeah.

Hulksmash wrote:It's one special CCW availabe in BC and GH squads. Both squads get 1 special weapon that is discounted no matter how many guys you take and both get a second one free when they are at full strength (10 for GH, 15 for BC).

Plus of course whatever kit you give the attached Wolf Guard.

It's interesting to note that most if not all of the analysis so far has been evaluating each unit at the elemental level, which b/c info is creeping in is really the only way to do it right now. But it seems to me that this codex will be all about the synergy of sagas, how units are outfitted, and special characters and how they interact with one another. This codex will be epitomize the phrase, "more than the sum of it's parts" and I am more looking forward to analyzing how to best mesh these things together to create some fun lists.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Yeah, I found this strange, myself. The new SM book is rife with this: LS Storm, Thunderfire, and Redeemer in particular caused me a WTF? moment. As a long-time IG player, the IG Codex decisions were just baffling.

The Thunderfire was there in 2nd edition, it just had a crappier name....
Thudd Gun

That's a Squat weapon, not a SM one?

All imperial forces also had Rapier Laser Destroyers, which now seem to have merged with Thudd Guns to form the Thunderfire Cannon for marines.

Nope, Thudd Guns were available for all imperial armies.

as per the datafax card

not to mention the bit of fluff that thudd guns of the space marine chapters were even manned by techmarines who could take servitors.

Does anyone know if wolf priests and rune priest have CSM librarian/chaplain stats or if they have old libby/chappy stats? Most importantly are they I5?

I'm interested because I want to see if that trend continues for when they give BA a proper codex.

OK, thanks. It's been a while since I had the 2E stuff.

from the rumors and the same question asked/answered on warseer, they've got the 5th edition stats for the regular versions. no specific word on the IC's.

ubermosher wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:It's one special CCW availabe in BC and GH squads. Both squads get 1 special weapon that is discounted no matter how many guys you take and both get a second one free when they are at full strength (10 for GH, 15 for BC).

Plus of course whatever kit you give the attached Wolf Guard.

It's interesting to note that most if not all of the analysis so far has been evaluating each unit at the elemental level, which b/c info is creeping in is really the only way to do it right now. But it seems to me that this codex will be all about the synergy of sagas, how units are outfitted, and special characters and how they interact with one another. This codex will be epitomize the phrase, "more than the sum of it's parts" and I am more looking forward to analyzing how to best mesh these things together to create some fun lists.

Well, I think that is largely because SW sergeants come separate from the troop units. Now given that 5th edition mech is powerfull and given that SW rhinos and drop pods are only capcity 10, the thought is which do you want more...a pricey CC WG sergeant or a cheap second special gun. Personally, I am more in favor of the second cheap gun. Also, I don't see BC as troops having a big role in 5th given that they no longer have access to multiple special CC weapons and GH are now economical.

Right now, I am liking the looks of having 3 Jump Pack units led by WG and/or SC backed up by 4 units of ten man GH in rhinos plus some extra fun in Njal and Ragnar

So, when a Wolf Guard joins a GH pack and all the GH die and leave him by his lonesome, is he able to claim objectives? I guess the question is, does he become a troop choice when he joins a GH or BC pack, or remain an elite?

From my understanding, he becomes an upgrade character and thus does not give up a separate KP and counts as the unit he originally joined.

The info

We have on the codex doesn't sound overpowered. But it does sound to give a few ways of making a harder ass build for CC than other SM builds (at present). So it looks to offer and nice and relatively inexpensive way to get together a new army for the purpose of fun games and for less competitive things, like making allied or four player games!

After reading the SW rumours I re-examined the CSM codex, and Abaddon is still as BAD as I recall. Because he can team up with Termis and heaps of combi meltas, there are plenty of hard units that could match it with the imminent bearded SWs.

Its less a case of codex creep and more a case of something refreshing than I previously suspected.

I guess whining is so much fun that I can't resist imaging things are cheesy or broken, when truth is just about every codex under the sun, still has some of it!

OTG

wyomingfox wrote:Deleted my previous Post and provided a new updated compilation with Rumors from the multiple threads:

Ect:
I saw the release schedule at my local GW, The Space Wolf second wave (within a wave) is coming out 22nd october.

General Rules:

Space Wolves have ATSKNF, Acute Senses, and Counter attack

Drop Pods and Drop Pod Assault is available though capacity is 10. Rhinos and Razorbacks are the same as SM.What? Grey transports have less capacity? Epic fail .

HQ:

Sagas change the objectives in the game in some cases, some are army wide some are individual based. Commanders – 2 sagas, other HQ get only one. Special characters come with them, like Ragnar is re rolls 1‘s. Saga of the Bear grants eternal warrior, and only the wolf lord can take it. Saga of Majesty grants all units within 6" may reroll morale or pinning, another grants cover for the wolfs. Saga of the Warrior Born" you get more attacks the following round equal to the number of his CC kills in the previous turn. Saga of the iron wolf gives +d3 movement to the transport but doesnt mention that the vehicle counts as moving its previous speed like red paint does. Saga of the hunter says "the character" has outflank and stealth, Wolfpriest only. Stealth is passed onto the unit he joins, but outflank is not a USR and it does not mention it in rulebook. Saga of Majesty: All friendly units within 6" get to re-roll failed morale checks. Saga of the Beast Killer: Re-roll to hit and wound against models of T5 or higher. It seems that all of the Sagas are 25 points or higher. Sagas can not be duplicated through the army, and neither can wargear combinations. If outflank transfers to the unit he joins, then I am liking the idea of the Hunter saga...and look, they gave vehicle "running" cause, you know, vehicles just don't have enough advantages in 5th

.

May take 2 HQ per slot but no duplicates (so no 2 wolf lords or rune priests, etc...)

Wolf Lord (100pts): 4 Base Attacks. No Invulnerable Save.

Wolf Guard Battle Leader: WGBL lost the heavy weapon

Ragnar gives himself and the unit he joins d3 extra attacks on the charge. he already has 5 built in and with WS6 and S5 thanks to his Sword. He can howl once per game and all units nearby get Furious Charge. Re rolls 1s. I give you 5th ed. Bararoth

Runepriests (100pts): Runic weapon doubles as a special kind of psychic hood. 24" range like hood, but on a 4+, power fails. New magic no gates, but storm is 24” - gives 5+ cover and turns zone of usage into difficult terrain for skimmers etc. There is also a lightning attack: Psychic shooting attack, 24" line is drawn, all non-vehicle models under the line must make an Iniative test (That means rolling equal or under the model's initiative), models that fail are removed from the board, can hit friendly units, no LOS needed, Monstrous Creatures get -1 bonus on the roll, 6 always fails.

Njal casts 3 powers per turn, cancels all psychic attacks on 3+ within 24". You don’t roll for ld, you just plainly cancel them. Not to mention his passive power chart that has one of them as -1BS for all models in 24". The Chooser of the Slain lets you put a marker on the board that doesn't allow infiltrating near it. Awesome rules for an awesome model

Wolfpriests (100pts): As for wolf priests there is NO FNP, or re rolls to hit like Litanes of Hate, they have preferred enemy against 1 type of unit. I believe they might pass this ability onto a unt they join. And it's TYPE of unit ( infantry, bikes, cavalry) etc...Lame

Techpriests: 75 points each, 2 attacks, built in hammer, can take mechanical wolves.

Canis (185 points): Gets 2 wounds, 3 attacks +1 for pair of Wolf Claws, T 5 and S 5, cavalry, Hits on 3+ in CC, and can re roll to wound, can give his unit an amount of attacks equal to the number of models in the squad he charges. Canis is riding a huge wolf. He allows Fen. Wolf pack to become Troops. Canis has 5 base attacks but if he gets surrounded he goes crazy and get one attack for every model in base contact.

Ulrik gives the unit he joins preferred enemy against a unit type he chooses at the start of the game. He makes his squad toughness 5.

Logan Grimnar (275 points): allows to take wolf guards as troops. Eternal warrior. Grimnar gives all units in his army +1 attack if they are within 18 inches. He also has the ability to change the special rules of the unit he is attached to every turn: Fearless, Tank Hunters, Preferred Enemy and relentless.

Bjorn is 270, amour 13/12/10 with a built in 5+ inv. save he is also a ven dread. he comes with a assault cannon but you can give him a plasma cannon for FREE with a BS 0f 6!!!! he has 4 base attacks at I3 and WS6. he allows all friendly units with (iirc) 12" to reroll moral. If he is killed all SW become fearless and becomes a new objective to be captured. 270 points huh...I can get a LRC for less

Elites:

Wolf Scouts: Stay the same, but they have only one special gun, 2 power weapons, Behind Enemy lines on a 1 you come in on the right short side of the table, a 2 on the left, 3-6 anywhere you want. Full sized squad can have 2 Plasma Pistols or Power Weapons, plus a Special Weapon. Every Model can have a Boltgun for free or a Sniper Rifle for 3 points. Sarge can’t take fist. Great, now it is random

No LS Storm

Dreads: Similar to SM starting with a free MM or Assault Cannon. No Ironclad. Venerable dreads can take saga of majesty (reroll failed morale if unit within 6"). Dreads and ven dreads can take wolftail talisman and wolftooth necklace

There’s no wolfen and there won’t be any

Wolf Guard: 18 pts. 3-10 in a Squad. Start with PA, Bolt Pistol, Bolt Gun, and CCW. HUGE list of war gear: from bikes and jump packs to TDA & TH & SS to combi-weapons and claws and frost blades. Also, they can leave their own squad and join troops, fast attack, and Wolf Scouts (in case of FA they mount bikes or wear jump packs). He hits on 3's, rerolls to hit and to wound against monstrous creatures

Arjak (170pts): an upgrade for the wolf guard so he’s not an IC, STR 10 Thunderhammer and Storm Shield. He throws the hammer 6" at S10 AP1 assault 1 and he gets an extra attack for his storm shield.

Terminators: 33pts with Terminator Armor, PW and SB. Cost of item depends on which weapon your replacing. Dual Wolf Claws is 48pts. TH/SS is 58pts. and PF/SB is 43pts. WGT can have 1 heavy weapon (AC and Cyclones) per 5 WGTs, squad size is 3-10. No teleportation’s deep strike, but have access to drop pods. Shields give 3++. TDA costs 15 points, it makes all upgrades cheaper – shield is 15 pts, claws is 10 (2 claws is 15), Power fist is 10. Well I guess I won't be fielding TH/SS combos

Lone Wolves is 20 points base. They act independantly...like Nid Zoes. WS 5 with 2 wounds, eternal warrior, feel no pain and re-rolls to hit against Walkers, Monstrous Creatures and things above T5. They are also really angry and have lots of options. Lone Wolves only gives away a KP if one is NOT killed. Compared to 58 pt SM terminators these guys are awesome...unless they act independantly, then they are horrible due to KP craziness

Troops:

Blood Claws: 15 pts each. BS and WS 3, 8 ld. Berserk charge(+2 attacks on charge) is there for ALL blood claw stuff. They can get one PF or PW and one discounted special gun at 5 men and a free special gun at 15. All blood claw units, whether bikes, jump packs, or whatever, have headstrong as a rule. If an enemy unit in your SHOOTING phase is within 6", you may not shoot and must charge in the assault phase. Headstrong rule is removed if the BC squads are led by Wolf Guard.

The Lukas the Trickster is a BC unit upgrade. Lukas has the "Doppleganger hide/cape/skin" that forces the enemy to re roll all his successful to-hit rolls. Lukas the Trickster had his secondary heart ripped out by a Dark Eldar, and he had it replaced with a stasis bomb. The rule is called "the last laugh", each model in base contact rolls a D6 if Lukas rolls equal or higher then they are dead. Not instant death, but removed from play. ...I am so sending this guy's squad against a Titan

Greys Hunters: 15 pts each. 1 attack in profile, 8 ld. CSM style (bp + ccw+ bolter) and grenades. They get 2 specials for 10 man, 1 for 5 guys. First melta costs 5, if you get another five guys you get another melta for free, Plasma Gun is a 10 pt upgrade. Plus they can get 1 PF or PW and one Plasma Pistol. They can take a totem: it allows them to re roll 1. One model can also take mark of the wulfen (1 model gets 1+d6 attacks, doesn't stack with special weapons). PW and PF upgrades for BC's and GH's are the same cost as sergeant upgrades in the SM Codex.

Fast Attack:

Sky Claws (18pts ): BS and WS 3. Blood Claws with Jump Packs

Blood Claw Bikes (25 pts): BS and WS 3. Squad Size 10 plus 1 attack bike. The attack bike is discounted due to being WS3/BS3. The bikers all have CCW/BP which means 4 attacks on the charge. 1 PW or PF. Only get one special gun and are ld 8.

Fenrisian wolves: 4 attacks, 6+ Save and cavalry. 8 points each and 4 WS. Not bad. Combine these with a Wolf Riding Heroe who has stealth and outflank and these might be pretty good

No separate units of attack bikes

Thunderwolf Riders (50pts): 4 attacks, 2 wounds, 5 toughness and strength, cavalry, rending on the charge, can take fist(10), hammer(15), etc. Squads of 1-5.

Heavies:

LR, LRR, and LRC are in the dex

No Thunder fire Cannon

Long Fangs (15pts): Can shoot at two targets at time if their sarge weren’t shooting. Now there can be 7 of them and kit 5 out with heavy weapons. leadership 9. Heavy bolters are 5 points, missiles 10, plasma 20, lascannons 25(not as cool as relentless LF in a rhino but it is an improvement)

Wargear:

They have the same space marine wargear, but it’s cheaper: combi-weapon - 5, fist - 20, frostblade - 20, hammer - 25, storm shield - 25

Cost for claws differs, but they can re roll either to-hit or to-wound.

Frost is a power weapon which gives +1 STR, it’s not two-handed.

There is banner (banner of the wolf I think it was called) and when used lets you re roll all "to hit" rolls in combat for the entire army for one turn.

Elites or Fast attack may include Space Wolves that ride on Cybernetically enhanced Fenrisian Wolves. They have S5 T5 and grant rending. They are 50pts a model. Every HQ lord can take one of the Wolves for a cost listed in their Wargear.

Runic Weapons wound Daemons on a 2+

Wolf tooth necklaces: Always hit on a 3+ in CC

wolftail talisman: nulifies psychic power targetting model on 5+

No Runic Charm

Belt of Russ:4+ Invulnerable

What is supposed to be included in this second wave on the 22nd?

Ect:
I saw the release schedule at my local GW, The Space Wolf second wave (within a wave) is coming out 22nd october.

Ah, must be nice.

GW have instituted some ungodly stupid "cone of silence" about upcoming releases. To the point that retailers and distributors don't even know what's coming out, and staff get fired for saying too much. There is supposedly someone in charge of what they won't tell us, and when they wont tell us. Hugely frustrating as a retailer that actually tries to run events for them.

I officially know the codex and a sprue with bitz are coming out, and probably in October. Other than that, mushroom treatment, and everyone at GW saying 'we don't know either'. GW speak for "I know, but I get fired if I tell you".

Makes me frustrated and I just give up even trying to run events "Hey everyone! Who wants to come in on Oct. 3rd to buy something vaguely space puppyish! And I have an event scheduled, don't know when, that will somehow tie into rumors of the new armie".

Yes, starting to get bitter.

Archonate wrote:Yeah, what were we thinking? GW has never disappointed us before...

Yes because I said Gw were perfect.

Oh wait, no hang on. (re-reads his post) Apparently I didn't.

I said the massive hyperbolic over reaction people are having to the perceived power level of the new codex is an over reaction.

And what's more we have the same hyperbolic over reaction to the perceived power level of EVERY new codex, and it is always an over reaction, and it is always the same bloody people doing the over reacting and you'd think by now they might have learned to chill out a little.

Learn to parse a sentence first before you try being sarcastic.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:No new army has ever broken the game.

Daemons in Fantasy seems to be pretty darn close, like Brets in Fantasy before. Compared with introducing Tau and Dameons, 40k doesn't have nearly the same balance issues. I don't know why that is.

Is it because they are far more maneuverable than your standard army is, giving them a huge tactical advantage? This wouldn't translate the same in 40k.

Here's some info that appears to be missing, at least for some. And it's mostly hyperbole free...

1) Space Wolf releases this year begin on October 3. The Codex, new plastic Marine set, new Terminators large metal wolf rider, and possibly some other items are released on Oct. 3. Some other items may appear two weeks later.

2) Space Wolves, like other major releases this year, are likely split into two release dates a couple weeks apart. This does not constitute what has come to be known as a "second wave" as those are releases of further models for a range months after the initial release.

3) Space Wolf Packs (i.e., "black boxes") went out to hobby centers this week. Many GW stores and independent retailers should have the new Space Wolf Codex and plastic sample sprues this week. Pictures and an announcement about this have been up on the GW website since Monday at this link.

4) My local GW store had the Space Wolf Pack today. The book is beautiful, the sprues more so. Virtually every piece on the new sprue had new themed detail added to it. Wolf skulls, wolf heads, Norse runes, terrific new bits like a highly stylized Thunderhammer, etc. The new plastic sprue is just fantastic. Lots more bits are on the sprue than are needed for the five Marines that come on it, so you can use the extra parts to dress up ordinary Space Marine plastics to fit in with the Space Wolves, much like the extra bits on the Dark Angel Veteran sprue already do for that army.

Moopy wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:No new army has ever broken the game.

Daemons in Fantasy seems to be pretty darn close,

Is it because they are far more maneuverable than your standard army is, giving them a huge tactical advantage? This wouldn't translate the same in 40k.

As I understand it, it's because Daemons don't have any of the normal weaknesses for opponents to exploit, and muc of what would normally be weaknesses are completely mitigated by army special rules.

For example, in normal Fantasy, you have to pass Ld if Fear-causing units are nearby, or if you want to attack them; Daemons ignore all of that stuff and *cause* Fear to boot. Or, if you lose combat, there is a chance to break and be run down; Daemons are unbreakable and just take a couple wounds. Or, if you wound, you can negate armor saves by Strong attacks; Daemons have Invulnerable Daemonic Ward saves. And then, you'd expect that Magic is limited to roughly 2 levels per Hero, except Daemons can have strong Magic as Core Troops.

So all of the normal balance stuff kind of drops away.

I have to agree with above that the dex is not over done and is for the most part fair. We get cool goodies but we pay out the nose for them. I do see some interesting builds though that will give people fits. I don't see them ruling the tourney scene anytime soon. It is hard to win with low model count in my opinion and that is going to be standard for the wolves it seems. Not always but in general. Just my two cents.

Why is logan grimnar more expensive than marneus calgar, Ghazgull Thraka, Eldrad, AND WHY IS HE THE SAME POINTS VALUE AS ABBADON THE DESPOILER. He's 25 points shy of the deciever, who is a million year old god, and two points shy of asdrubeal vect, a 20,000 year old eldar who has ruled the most violent race in 40k for that entire stretch of time, and who brings his flying tank with him to the fight.

Did he grind baal for awesome loot? Does he have a cosmic cube? Did his latent mutant power of controlling the weather finally make it into a codex?

Did he really need to get even more expensive and powerful? He was 250 points before, back when spending that on a special character was mind blowing.

His abilities and the chance to take 18pt 2 base attack (3 w/BP+CCW) models means he is worth the difference. I think it's a possibility that I'll probably explore sometime for fun. He's also pretty gross individually too.

ShumaGorath wrote:Why is logan grimnar more expensive than marneus calgar, Ghazgull Thraka, Eldrad, AND WHY IS HE THE SAME POINTS VALUE AS ABBADON THE DESPOILER. He's 25 points shy of the deciever, who is a million year old god, and two points shy of asdrubeal vect, a 20,000 year old eldar who has ruled the most violent race in 40k for that entire stretch of time, and who brings his flying tank with him to the fight.

Did he grind baal for awesome loot? Does he have a cosmic cube? Did his latent mutant power of controlling the weather finally make it into a codex?

Did he really need to get even more expensive and powerful? He was 250 points before, back when spending that on a special character was mind blowing.

Logan Grimnar being 275 points is no more absurd than Marneus Calgar being 265 points.

Quite frankly, while he is good at close combat, he's not a mind-blowing close combat monster. A lot of his points are based in the bonuses he provides to other units, and to the army in general (providing his unit with one of a list of special rules, and making Wolf Guard troops).

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

Archonate wrote:Yeah, what were we thinking? GW has never disappointed us before...

Yes because I said Gw were perfect.

Oh wait, no hang on. (re-reads his post) Apparently I didn't.

I said the massive hyperbolic over reaction people are having to the perceived power level of the new codex is an over reaction.

And what's more we have the same hyperbolic over reaction to the perceived power level of EVERY new codex, and it is always an over reaction, and it is always the same bloody people doing the over reacting and you'd think by now they might have learned to chill out a little.

Learn to parse a sentence first before you try being sarcastic.

Nobody is dumb enough to come to definitive conclusions about the Codex at this point in time. This thread exists to accommodate people who want to theorize and conjecture based on what limited information we have, as well as allow people who have seen actual printings to share. Though we do get the occasional bile-spewer who gets angry at people for discussing thoughts on the way the rumors sound...

Archonate wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:

Archonate wrote:Yeah, what were we thinking? GW has never disappointed us before...

Yes because I said Gw were perfect.

Oh wait, no hang on. (re-reads his post) Apparently I didn't.

I said the massive hyperbolic over reaction people are having to the perceived power level of the new codex is an over reaction.

And what's more we have the same hyperbolic over reaction to the perceived power level of EVERY new codex, and it is always an over reaction, and it is always the same bloody people doing the over reacting and you'd think by now they might have learned to chill out a little.

Learn to parse a sentence first before you try being sarcastic.

Nobody is dumb enough to come to definitive conclusions about the Codex at this point in time. This thread exists to accommodate people who want to theorize and conjecture based on what limited information we have, as well as allow people who have seen actual printings to share. Though we do get the occasional bile-spewer who gets angry at people for discussing thoughts on the way the rumors sound...

Ooooh a subtle dig.

All I ask is for some perspective, for people to factor in hindsight when making pronouncements of doom and gloom.

Conjecture along the lines of the following (taken from another board) is perfectly fine by me.

"wow ragnar seems really powerful. Adding D3 to the charge and a once per game furious charge to boot means that him plus some bloodclaws is going to be one of the hardest hitting units in the whole game. Bloodcrushers and khorne berserkers are looking at that combo and crying."

"That looks waaaaaaaaaaaay OP"

"Yeah but you have to remember that they'll also need a land raider crusader to get the charge guaranteed and that ragnar plus the lrc is about 500pts already. Sure that'll kill anything stone dead but it costs nearly 700pts for one unit. That is half an army in most game sizes."


People discussing combos, rules, units, fluff and how gakked wolf riders are, how much they hate the new canis model, how much they love the new plastics, why the 10 man for a spec wep but 10 man capacity pod is silly etc is fine. I have no problem with anyone having a negative opinion. (Not that I am the high lord arbitator of what is okay on a message board). What irks me is peoiple crying the sky is falling and failing to remember that they did the same when IG, SM and Orks all came out.

I am tired of people crying wolf if you will.

ba dum tsssh.

Who cried the sky is falling when Guard came out? I seem to remember everyone waiting for something magical to arrive and then a resounding 'Meh' when it finally did.

ShumaGorath wrote: and two points shy of asdrubeal vect, a 20,000 year old eldar

I don't know about that... I mean, I shot that guy dead last week.

ShumaGorath wrote:Why is logan grimnar more expensive than marneus calgar, Ghazgull Thraka, Eldrad, AND WHY IS HE THE SAME POINTS VALUE AS ABBADON THE DESPOILER. He's 25 points shy of the deciever, who is a million year old god, and two points shy of asdrubeal vect, a 20,000 year old eldar who has ruled the most violent race in 40k for that entire stretch of time, and who brings his flying tank with him to the fight.

Did he grind baal for awesome loot? Does he have a cosmic cube? Did his latent mutant power of controlling the weather finally make it into a codex?

Did he really need to get even more expensive and powerful? He was 250 points before, back when spending that on a special character was mind blowing.

To be honest he doesn't sound like he is worth his points strictly on his own (and he never did in the last edition when he was nearly 80 pts more expensive than he should have been). In a straight up fight abaddon, the deceiver and other similaly pointed characters like calgar are all going to own him.

Instead his points reflect his ability to change the army composition and add value to units around him.

Eldrad is a good example of where GW are going with this current trend. Eldrad isn't a godly super human who strides the battlefields and takes on whole armies by himself like abaddon but he is a powerful support unit for the eldar buffing nearby units, screwing with enemy reserves/deployment, etc. His in game ability reflects his pts cost, his fluffwise ability is reflected in his statline.

And Logan's statline isn't much better than a standard space marine chapter master. He just costs so much more because he allows WG as troops and gives USRs to a unit he joins.

He certainly got more powerful, I would argue he is still a little bit overcosted. In fact most of the space wolf special chars seem to be prohibitively costly to use. As someone else mentioned ragnar, an LRC and BC's is a kickass combo but you're looking at around 700pts for effectively one unit. The only ones so far who looks worth their weight are logan (if you want a WG army a termie army or 13th co you need him) Canis (godly statline and agains if you want the all cav army you need him) and Njal (just seems fairly pointed based on what he can do. A footslogging force will benefit greatly from DS shut down or his KFF copycat and he can switch to offensive spells once he gst close enough.)

H.B.M.C. wrote:Who cried the sky is falling when Guard came out? I seem to remember everyone waiting for something magical to arrive and then a resounding 'Meh' when it finally did.

Precisely. By the time the release week rolled around, stunned silence and quiet resignation reigned far wider than any kind of proclamation of doom. The latter stage only lasted that brief interval between the release of the summary sheet and the first points costs leaking out.

Da Boss wrote:Jervis is annoying and overpowered and has lead to a massive drop in list diversity for chaos. Whining is justified.

Fixed it.

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:I swear the collective memory of 40k fans would embarass a goldfish.

No new army has ever broken the game. No new army has ever been so good that it was unbeatable even after people adjusted to it or the next few codecii were released.

Every new codex, every single bloody one we get cries of "cheese" "broken" "can't phil kelly tone it down" "I may as well sell all my models" and then within three months its back to normal or whining about the next lot.

Codex: Eldar in 2nd edition came pretty close, although that was a long time ago.

You're mostly right, but allow me to make a clarification. Some codices are still unquestionably more powerful than others. It's not as if all codices end up falling around the baseline after a few months. On the other hand, unidirectional codex creep is in fact a fallacy, and there's many examples -- SW and Eldar (early releases in 2nd), BA (early release in 3rd), Tyranids (early 4th), etc. Sometimes the most broken stuff occurs early in an edition when the designers clearly don't have as firm a handle on the implications of the new ruleset.

wyomingfox wrote:

ubermosher wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:It's one special CCW availabe in BC and GH squads. Both squads get 1 special weapon that is discounted no matter how many guys you take and both get a second one free when they are at full strength (10 for GH, 15 for BC).

Plus of course whatever kit you give the attached Wolf Guard.

It's interesting to note that most if not all of the analysis so far has been evaluating each unit at the elemental level, which b/c info is creeping in is really the only way to do it right now. But it seems to me that this codex will be all about the synergy of sagas, how units are outfitted, and special characters and how they interact with one another. This codex will be epitomize the phrase, "more than the sum of it's parts" and I am more looking forward to analyzing how to best mesh these things together to create some fun lists.

Well, I think that is largely because SW sergeants come separate from the troop units. Now given that 5th edition mech is powerfull and given that SW rhinos and drop pods are only capcity 10, the thought is which do you want more...a pricey CC WG sergeant or a cheap second special gun. Personally, I am more in favor of the second cheap gun. Also, I don't see BC as troops having a big role in 5th given that they no longer have access to multiple special CC weapons and GH are now economical.

Has anyone confirmed whether the WGL was taken as a unit upgrade or if they are the same as now with us adding them to the units after the fact? I may be wrong on this but don't the sarges in standard SM units count towards the total models in the unit?

Also wondering if anyone has read the EXACT wording on the cover save ability provided by Njal and the Runepriests. Some people have already stated it but vehicles do not get cover they get "obscured". The wording on the CFF works it for vehicles to get the 4+, and I was just wondering how the wording looked in our codex by comparison. I would assume since the ability worked on vehicles per the FAQ it will still work on them now, but is it 4+ or 5+?

Can wolf guard terminators take special weapons?
EDIT: or chainfists?

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:And what's more we have the same hyperbolic over reaction to the perceived power level of EVERY new codex

Oh I beg to differ.

Hyperbole indeed.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Who cried the sky is falling when Guard came out? I seem to remember everyone waiting for something magical to arrive and then a resounding 'Meh' when it finally did.

I know I cried, but I can't remember if it was "sky falling" or tears of joy, by the time I finally got my copy months later, it was definitely, "Meh".

Anyone notice if Cyclones are SM style or DA/BA style or if chainfists made it in?

The Wolf Guard Terminator models have Chainfists. We've seen them.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Wolf Guard Terminator models have Chainfists. We've seen them.

Doh, so we have, on the HF guy no less. I have heard that Cyclones are SM style also.

Lukas the Trickster - Blood Claw upgrade. His Special Rule is called "the last laugh", where on his death he and the model that killed him are removed then both players roll a D6. If the SW player rolls equal to or higher than their opponent, all models within Base to Base contact with Lukas (friend or foe) are removed.

Bolter fire and lasgun shots crisscrossed the once peaceful valley. Over this scene of carnage eagerly gazed the newly formed squad of Blood Claws who stood perched along the southern ridgeline. The squad’s sergeant, a member of the elite wolf guard, looked over at his pack and grimaced at their ill-controlled battle lust. With but a glance, he looked up at the moon that hung high above and took note of its pallid light that bathed the ground below. "Almost midnight," he muttered before turning his gaze down and to the west, along the ridge where the full strength of his wolf company was forming up to bring its terrifying strength to bear. His gaze lingered on his fellow pack mates before a brief distortion of his shadow, caught out of the corner of his eye, brought his attention back to his personal surrounding. Slowly he glanced skyward, his look of confusion quickly turning to dismay as he realized the light bearing down on his squad from above was no longer that of the moon’s, but from the mounted spotlight of an Emperor Class Titan. Quickly his mind raced to determine how such an immense war machine could have possibly escaped his keen notice. It was in his final moments that the answer dawned on him….”CREEE!.........”

Far to the south and along the plateau that bordered the valley, a lone imperial officer sat nestled in a wide verandah that overlooked the growing battle taking place beneath. At the sight of the opposing ridgeline exploding with violent force, a wide smile formed across his battle scarred face and he watched with unconcealed glee as the Titan’s plasma battery consumed the sheltered Space Marines in a blazing inferno. “Tactical Genius…Hurr… Hurr… Hurr”… the man chuckled as he leisurely rolled the massive cigar between his fingers. While continuing to survey the mounting damage to the opposing force, however, he could not help but noticed the glint of light reflecting off a minuscule metal surface adjacent to the Titan’s foot. Incredulous, the commander deftly focused his binoculars on the object that had caught his attention and then stared in amazement at his discovery of a single lone Wolf, seemingly gazing in the officer’s direction. The Space Marine, casually leaning against the Titan’s frame, wore a bewildering smile that appeared to mock the commander. Then, in horror, the officer watched as the Space Wolf exploded with a deafening roar. Upon the smoke clearing, a gasp escaped the lips of the officer as he surveyed the scattered hulk of the wrecked titan, and the two sole smoking boots that was all that remained of the snide Wolf. For several moments he stood silent and still, shocked and transfixed by the sudden and unexpected violence visited upon his prized war machine. Shock quickly turned to anger as the realization that the several months of planning he had painstakingly and deliberately undertaken had been wholly and swiftly undone by the actions of a sole marine. Ever so slowly he leaned forward, the priceless cigar being inadvertently crushed in his clenched hand as his body twisted in rage, and screamed “LUKASSSSS!”

wyomingfox wrote:... Ever so slowly he leaned forward, the priceless cigar being inadvertently crushed in his clenched hand as his body twisted in rage, and screamed “LUKASSSSS!”

A reasonable exchange rate I would say.

wyomingfox wrote:Then, in horror, the officer watched as the Space Wolf exploded with a deafening roar. Upon the smoke clearing, a gasp escaped the lips of the officer as he surveyed the scattered hulk of the wrecked titan, and the two sole smoking boots that was all that remained of the snide Wolf. For several moments he stood silent and still, shocked and transfixed by the sudden and unexpected violence visited upon his prized war machine. Shock quickly turned to anger as the realization that the several months of planning he had painstakingly and deliberately undertaken had been wholly and swiftly undone by the actions of a sole marine. Ever so slowly he leaned forward, the priceless cigar being inadvertently crushed in his clenched hand as his body twisted in rage, and screamed “LUKASSSSS!”

Very nice.

Although, Lukas shouldn't explode. The bomb in his chest is a Stasis Bomb, so he just "freezes" time in an area around himself.

I saw the sprue at my local gee-dub today, looks great. Probably build Space Wolves around marines I have from an old army.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

bravelybravesirrobin wrote:And what's more we have the same hyperbolic over reaction to the perceived power level of EVERY new codex

Oh I beg to differ.

Hyperbole indeed.

I'm not going to continue this argument but in my defence I took a few years out from playing 40k in the middle of 4th ed. I only got back into the game and the newscycle with the release of the ork codex. For all I know people ran around screaming "the sky is falling" when DA came out too.

I don't remember very much lamenting when the current standard space marine codex was in rumor phase. Just a whole lot of "Meh" and "MY CHAOS MARINES DON'T GET TO DO THAT THIS GAME SUCKS". No one much worried about the orks at the time either, as they weren't particularly hardcore in fourth edition. I remember a few souls fearing what they would be capable of with the rumored fifth edition changes though.

People rightly feared the guard codex, it's been a jawbreaker in the tournament scene since it splashed down, and it looks like they are probably right to fear this one too. It has everything it needs in the right places it needs them to be a power dex.

Do keep in mind that in the case of Marine Codex, we basically knew what was going to happen - Traits gone, lots of stuff from the Dark Angel Codex copypasta'd over to the new book. What we didn't expect was that it would be a better Codex than the Dark Angel one. And what I didn't expect would be the heavy emphasis on Special Characters (although that may have been a combination of naivety and me being in denial about getting a good and balanced Codex that didn't swing the pendulum like the world was ending).

For the Orks it was more a case of the Ork players being willing to take whatever they were given as long as it was different, as the other list was both so old and so hopeless.

MinMax wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:Then, in horror, the officer watched as the Space Wolf exploded with a deafening roar. Upon the smoke clearing, a gasp escaped the lips of the officer as he surveyed the scattered hulk of the wrecked titan, and the two sole smoking boots that was all that remained of the snide Wolf. For several moments he stood silent and still, shocked and transfixed by the sudden and unexpected violence visited upon his prized war machine. Shock quickly turned to anger as the realization that the several months of planning he had painstakingly and deliberately undertaken had been wholly and swiftly undone by the actions of a sole marine. Ever so slowly he leaned forward, the priceless cigar being inadvertently crushed in his clenched hand as his body twisted in rage, and screamed “LUKASSSSS!”

Very nice.

Although, Lukas shouldn't explode. The bomb in his chest is a Stasis Bomb, so he just "freezes" time in an area around himself.

Yeah, your right. I still find it more hillarious with his o so casual Komiczi style. That and I like the idea of a running spoof where he keeps showing up only to explode...kinda like Kenny at South Park

ShumaGorath wrote:I don't remember very much lamenting when the current standard space marine codex was in rumor phase. Just a whole lot of "Meh" and "MY CHAOS MARINES DON'T GET TO DO THAT THIS GAME SUCKS".

Oh please, there were many whining bouts about:

- Marines getting "free" heavy/assault weapons
- Marines getting "free" sergeant upgrades
- Storm Shields being 3+ Invulnerable against everything
- Shrike in general
- Vulkan in general
- The Redeemer
- Sternguard in general
- Vanguard in general (OH MY GOD MARINES CAN ASSAULT AFTER DEEP STRIKE)

The lamenting was, as is typical, of varying qualities, from the reasonable (e.g., 3+I Storm Shields are quite good), to the laughable (Vanguard), and failed to paint a particularly accurate picture of marines on the tabletop (with the exception of Vulkan's then and contained praise, although I still think he's overrated and don't see him a lot).

As I have Chaos, Marine, and Space Wolves armies dating back to late 3rd edition, my reading of all of the rumors so far gives me:

- Maw is a *very good* psychic power, but not game breaking
- None of the special characters are worth their points unless you build the entire list around them, and even then they're questionable
- Grey Hunters are now a really, really good Troops choice
- Wolfriders may be very, very good (still haven't seen a confirmation on my earlier question as to whether they're T5 or T4(5), if it's the former, they'll be very good, if the latter, only moderately good, remembering especially that the meta has shifted to the meltagun as the primary assault weapon over plasma, and as such, at T4(5) their extra wound is limited in value)

If I understand the HQ selection rules, to get two Maws in a list, you'd need to take a Rune Priest and Njal, which is a huge boatload of points.

Overall, though, "Meh". The codex is good, it's probably not game-breakingly good. Makes me think my Tacs are slightly overpriced, and I need to model up a lot of meltaguns on my SWs (as I last seriously played them in 4e, and as such they have plasma in the GH squads).

They are T5. Not 4(5).

Scottywan82 wrote:They are T5. Not 4(5).

Nifty. Do they have power weapons standard? Options for Frost Blades (along with the previously listed Power Fist and Thunder Hammer)? Any other wolf-named wargear to further differentiate models?

These guys are going to be pretty rough.

As I have Chaos, Marine, and Space Wolves armies dating back to late 3rd edition, my reading of all of the rumors so far gives me:

- Maw is a *very good* psychic power, but not game breaking
- None of the special characters are worth their points unless you build the entire list around them, and even then they're questionable
- Grey Hunters are now a really, really good Troops choice
- Wolfriders may be very, very good (still haven't seen a confirmation on my earlier question as to whether they're T5 or T4(5), if it's the former, they'll be very good, if the latter, only moderately good, remembering especially that the meta has shifted to the meltagun as the primary assault weapon over plasma, and as such, at T4(5) their extra wound is limited in value)

If I understand the HQ selection rules, to get two Maws in a list, you'd need to take a Rune Priest and Njal, which is a huge boatload of points.

Overall, though, "Meh". The codex is good, it's probably not game-breakingly good. Makes me think my Tacs are slightly overpriced, and I need to model up a lot of meltaguns on my SWs (as I last seriously played them in 4e, and as such they have plasma in the GH squads).

Don't underestimate how amazing blood claws are as a troops choice. Not having to split duties in troops deployment and squads is an incredible boon. Terminators having access to drop pods is also utterly terrifying. Assured, accurate, first turn assault terminator drops will be devastating. Especially with the combination of close combat weaponry and shooty guns. The versatility of the tactical squad has always been a shortfall, it pays points for close range weaponry and long range simultaneously, while at the same time being forced to move to take territory, without being particularly good at close combat. Having functional, more durable, and good long fangs, backing up a harsh core of close range firepower and very respectable close combat ability is going to be a dealbreaker. Simply ignoring the stranger units like wolf riders and the special characters, the armies core, it's troops and guns, are spectacular.

Standard Rune Priests and Wolf Priests have had their initiative dropped to 4 in the new Dex. The Special Characters are higher. Basic Wolf Lords and Wolf Guard Battle Leaders are still 5 though. Bjorn is Init 3

Meh, my characters aren't the killing machines. My marines are

I agree that the core of the army will be very strong if people focus on it. But I also think that a lot of people like their toys and that it is a great list for it. In fact it makes my standard marines playable again since now my squads can have termie sergeants and all of my sergeants can have something other just PW and PF.

As a person who loves competitive 40k, and a person who prides himself on having levelheaded responses to rumors, I'd like to weigh in.

This is mostly a message that Space Wolves aren't going to break the game. It seems some of their rules and abilities are good, and they are going to be a fine competitive army, but I haven't seen one thing that is over the top.

Keep this concept in mind when you are thinking about close combat marines. Whenever you play against tau or IG, any single point you spent to increase your close combat ability is a point wasted. Even your most basic troop can beat nearly everything they have blindfolded, and so you've made an investment in "win more". That is a balancing force.

I'm going to go unit by unit so this will be long. But I'll keep the comments on them brief.

HQ

Wolf Lord/WGBL - an expensive independent character that is only good for CC, in the context of 10 capacity rhinos and drop pods, I couldn't see ever wanting this guy except for expansion games or other 'fun' moments.

Wolf Priest - Same thing here. Seems more affordable, and has more of a unit-wide buff effect which is superior, but with all of the sagas he has access to basically making him better in CC, and the fact that he is an IDable, IC. I'm not really impressed.

Rune Priest - Seems quite excellent, ork big mek kustom force field combined with a space marine librarian with a beefed up psychic hood. This is an excellent character. I would expect this to be the most commonly taken character.
But before I move on, lets talk about jaws. On this site and others, there is lamenting and gnashing of teeth, and it is ridiculous. On Bell of Lost Souls, this comment was made. "Jaws will be the end of assault terminators." Lets look at some math. Assault terminators fail their initiative tests on only 5s and 6s. So, if you can actually maneuver jaws to hit all 5 termies, it has the EXACT same mathematical chances to wipe out the unit as a demolisher cannon. (and, incidentally, the same range). Against an opponent with any awareness at all, jaws will not hurt horde units any more than a thunderfire cannon. High wound count, low initiative monstrous creatures will need to respect the power. But keep in mind its range. There will be no 'flank shot' that picks up multiple MCs if you deploy and maneuver well. It will hit one. Almost all demons will have their decently high initiative with the -1 and have a very good chance to avoid it. Carnifex seem to be vulnerable to this power, but as their book is a quick 3 months away, I think we can hold judgement a bit. The rest of the psychic powers are complete non-factors. Realize that you are giving up null zone, gate of infinity, and vortex.

ELITE - an excellent slot for this army. unfortunately it is DENSELY packed with desirables. You can only have 3...

Dreadnought - as far as I've read, the only 'space wolf' upgrade that the dread can take is saga of majesty which is seriously dull. Otherwise, these are the good old fashioned dreadnoughts, plenty to like about them, but nothing different from vanilla.

Wolf Guard - Seems like a highly customizable, powerful unit. I haven't looked under the hood too much on these guys, but I believe my current favorite termie load out is 5 termies, 5 frost blades and 5 storm shields. Better than assault terminators and more expensive than assault terminators. You can make them bigger and scarier, as that price starts to scale up, they'll lose more and more of their power, and start to become a real "timmy" unit. As far as the 'build your own sarge' concept. I think we all need to remember the balancing force built into the 10 man rhino. You can have a choppy unit with a moderately respectable number of power fist attacks and one melta, or you can have 2 meltas... or you can go on foot. I can't imagine passing on the free second special weapon for grey hunters, and as far as blood claws are concerned, well. I will get to that later.

Wolf Scouts - were NOT game breaking before, and they've been palpably nerfed. Enjoy 1 meltagun instead of 2, and enjoy occasionally not getting to choose your side. Still fieldable, but no one should be freaking out.

Lone Wolf - I am really excited about these. I am really hoping that you get a certain allotment of them and they don't take up a slot. But even in taking up a slot, they are a real nice MSU KP abusers. I'd be interested to see if they can reliably down walkers. It looks like its more of a 50/50 if they take beast slayer. But 50/50 is pretty nice. I would certainly take 2-3 guardsman marbo if he didn't cough up a kill point. Although these guys will likely have game impact, and are points efficient, they won't have a 'metagame' level impact. They simply don't 'do' enough and you can't take enough of them.

TROOPS

grey hunters - I like these a lot. Using an apples to oranges comparison, I would certainly trade a leadership 9 choppy sergeant, combat tactics, combat squads and a free heavy weapon for choppy wargear, counter-attack, a second discounted special weapon, and acute senses. But in the context of the codeces, I wouldn't want to lose a heavy weapon in vanilla space marines. They are different. They do different things. Leadership 9 is nice. But with ATSKNF, you don't use leadership to regroup, and in many cases you will actually want to fall back. Vanilla get around this with combat tactics, but space wolves can use their lower natural leadership to fall back in order to shoot whatever CC monster has charged them. I wouldn't ever add a WG to this unit, 2x meltaguns with all that choppiness and special rules package makes a fine, transport hunter/killer of soft units that ride in transports. For instance, grey hunters beat tactical squads on the charge, when charged and in ongoing combats. Thats good enough for me. Excellent troop choice.

blood claws - for a troop, blood claws aren't terrible, but if anyone has been paying attention to black templars recently, they will realize that having a bucket of strength 4 attacks that don't ignore armor and don't magically punch through fast moving armor, isn't necessarily "devastating". This is another unit that currently exists in the game, isn't EVER talked about, and has been MASSIVELY nerfed. Going from 3 power fists to 1, stacked on top of the unchoppiness of power fists. Now we are looking at a unit that without outside help can only generate 3 strength 8 attacks on the charge and 1 strength 8 attack after charging. Really? If I have a dreadnought, I'm aiming it right for this unit. Add a WG for another pair of attacks, put your rune priest in here, then it looks a lot better. But I could imagine a weaken resolve launched from outside of 24" would constantly push back this unit all game. One of the two lashes would get through and throw them around, or a superior 'real cc unit' would charge, win, and keep winning. A decent, fieldable troop, if the proper additional investment is made. Land raider I'm looking at you.

FAST ATTACK - Saying it now. The space wolf key to winning.

fenrisian wolves - Not as good as the rarely ever seen flesh hounds of khorne, not as good as the never seen rough riders. i wouldn't expect to see these.

skyclaws - non-scoring blood claws. Not as fast as blood claws in a rhino, jump infantry, joining the ranks of storm boys, assault marines, raptors and all other, not quite good enough units that can jump really far.

swiftclaws - closer... if only they were scoring. Ask CSM players if choppy bike units can win against dedicated CC units. They are a decent flex unit, shoot for a while then charge, but without having scoring status, I feel they would need to be a lot more dynamic to be worth the points.

land speeder - excellent top tier unit. Also, quite necessary for the short ranged choppy space wolves. But nothing we haven't seen before.

thunderwolf cavalry - making an apples to oranges comparison, these guys cost 10 points more than bloodcrushers, for a loss of power armor and weapons and a point of toughness gain. But the comparison isn't valid between codeces. These guys to me look quite good. Not traditionally insta-killable, strength 5 rending many, many attack will trash armor, 12" charge range is fast and threatening. I am unaware of their equipment options but I know they have some, any additional equipment options will make them even better. I think this is an excellent unit.

HEAVY SUPPORT

Land raider and variants - top tier competitive choice, made even more so by the power increase from assault terminator to wolf guard.

predator - excellent flexible HS choice. But also nothing new.

whirlwind - as 'meh' as it is in vanilla.

vindicator - as 'meh' as it is in vanilla.

Long Fangs - Just making them cheaper and giving them more weapons does not suddenly make them amazing. They are non-scoring, move or shoot infantry models. Vanilla space marines can already split fire, its called combat squads... yes it is much more expensive to have 10 marines, but that also buys you more ablative wounds, and a signum. I don't hate this unit. I can't think of anything better for any marine to put in a bastion in a plantestrike defense, but for a real deal competitive 40k game, they are a single shot from my leman russ executioner away from being picked up off the table. I wished they could have gotten relentless... i would have LOVED to see a drop pod with 5 MM LFs land next to a mech line and walk out and unload with split fire, alas they didn't 'pull the trigger'.

SPECIAL CHARACTERS

Logan Grimnar - Not nearly as fighty as the italian stallion (calgar) but he picked up eternal warrior to make him a passable expensive fighter. You trade master strategist for the superior 'choose a USR' every turn, and the wolf guard as troops option, which makes him a very usable character, but just like Calgar, he isn't going to be sought after for 1750 and smaller games. Thats not a dig at him, just a truth. he is just fine, nothing mind shattering.

Ragnar Blackmane - EXPENSIVE. His howl is good. But in the context of mech-hammer 40k, mass amount of strength 5 is no substitute for a single well positioned MMHF speeder, period. He fights better than a WGBL, has the valuable howl rule, has a couple upgrades that can be puchased by WGBL anyway, 4+ invuln and a saga.. the only other thing he gets is a +d3 attacks on the charge. Does anyone remember crushing claws in the nid codex? 33% of the time with regular grey hunters, this power does NOTHING. With blood claws 33% of the time it does nothing, and 33% of the time it actually gives you LESS attacks than you would have had without ragnar. Out of the current metagame context, i would say he was a good IC. The way competitive games play out, any point of HQ not spent on a rune priest is probably a point wasted.

Njal Stormcaller - I can stomach the cost, having all 6 powers means very little to me, as there is only 2 that I have any interest in. The 3+ rune "hood" has serious value. That makes him interesting. But the storm is his real feature. I think it is good, with more control by the player it would be AMAZING. But it has a problem and that problem is 'possessed syndrome' Say its turn 1 and you've got him in position against an IG gunline to really hurt their shooting. But instead of getting -1 BS to all enemies like you thought you were going to get, you get 'all enemies are in difficult ground'. Then as the game moves forward against a CSM player, there is a plague marine rhino dashing for an objective, getting that strength 9 hit on the rhino would be fantastic, but what you get instead is the morale test for the entirely fearless army. I'm not saying you won't get the right ability at the right time, and I'm not saying the power doesn't have value, I'm just saying that Njal isn't a "must take" nor is he somehow game breaking.

Ulrik the slayer - this poor guy just got copypasted. He can't possibly be 'broken'

Canis wolfborn - He really shreds hordes. Thats great. For take on all comers, he doesn't touch tanks. Making a unit that isn't good a troop (but not even giving it scoring status) doesn't really blow me away either.

Bjorn the Fellhanded - Costs as much as 2 ironclads, is probably as survivable as 2 iron clads, but doesn't put out the same output as 2 ironclads... Get him killed and you have a new responsibility, and gain fearless, which with ATSKNF built in, is a marginal bonus. If you wanted to buy ironclads for wolves, here you go... he is fieldable, but not even close to metagame changing.

Lukas the Trickster - Unit upgrade, I'm assuming not an IC, which helps his cause. He is expensive for a unit upgrade. Really makes that unit a lynchpin, and unfortunately, that unit is blood claws. I like his defensive ability to force re-rolls, the stasis bomb will work only if you can do the charging, or if you have positioned lukas masterfully well. If you are charged, a savvy opponent will make sure his 'abbaddon' is in base to base elsewhere, and that he has contact lukas with another model. Even then, with the dice falling the wrong way, you can lose more of your own models than enemy models to the stasis bomb. Ultimately, You will see less and less of this model, when more and more people realize that their trickster powered blood claw squad costs as much as a blood claw squad AND a grey hunter squad, and the trickster is having a hard time making his "trick" work.

Arjak Rockfist - I don't think i need to go into it too much with this guy. Solid. Excellent unit upgrade character, makes the wolf guard even better at killing tanks with strength 10 t hammer and a strength 10 ap1 6" range shot. He is also quite pricey, he will cost you another grey hunter squad, but as he is a stand in for a 63 point wolf guard, that mitigates the cost a bit. As good as he is, he is an upgrade character, that merely makes one unit better. he doesn't break the game, he is just good.




Ok, so how are space wolves different in the eyes of a competitive player?

They have rune priests, which are a really great IC, with 2 really nice powers and a great psychic defense. They can use Njal for a more impactful rune priest.

They have wolf guard that they can customize to their exact specifications, and a land raider to put them in. Arjak makes them better. they can even be troops choices in larger games.

They have the annoying and potentially dangerous lone wolves floating around the battlefield.

They have the slightly more affordable and more straightforward grey hunters.

They have the very respectable, hard to kill, and dangerous to infantry, MCs and non-land raider non-walker vehicles, thunderwolf cavalry. they are very vulnerable to dreadnoughts and don't do much against rear armor 14.


Lets do one more apples to oranges comparison... what did they lose that is universally considered competitive to the vanillas.

Master of the forge with conversion beamer, Vulkan, gate of infinity, null zone, vortex of doom, bike captain, company command squad on bikes

200 point thunderhammer terminators

troop multi-meltas, troop missile launchers, troop combat squads, combat tactics, 12 capacity drop pods, bike troops, telion

squadrons of attack bikes

thunderfire cannon, heavy support dreadnoughts


It is pretty clear to me that, just like vanilla marines, they are going to do very well competitively in the hands of a skilled player. But also just like imperial guard and space marines, there is nothing game breaking or devastating in the book. I don't see anything that will make me adjust my competitive 1750 IG list. And that is amazing. I am going to assume that when Nids hit, there will be some serious shifting around of my list. This codex just isn't giving me that scare.

If you are a space wolf player, enjoy the overall increase in power level and self contained easy to read new codex. If you are not, have no fear.

Heah, Shep. Thanks for the analysis

Minor quibbles Shep: BC get 4 attacks on the charge, and Scouts only ever had 1 Melta gun. They could carry 2 power weapons and 2 plasma pistols in addition, but only 1 special. And "Operating Behind Enemy Lines" only allowed you to come in on opponent's side. The ability has been reduced to working 66% of the time, but now you can choose any table edge. That is an amazing tactical boon.

And you can still drop 5 MM Long Fangs and nuke 2 vehicles (or 2 IG squadrons)... you just need to take Logan to do it.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again, this army will be about the sagas and abilities making the list more than the sum of its units.

Skyclaws are only 18 points. Yep, for 3 points, you just strapped a jump pack onto a Bloodclaw. It doesn't make them hideously good, but they're cheap enough to make it into some lists. Especially since you can add an IC or WGPL with a jump pack (which gets a little pricey, but isn't horribly).

SWs are definitely a close-quarter army. They need to be played agressively and get into the other guy's grill to do well. I can see several units of cheap GHs in rhinos, some wolf scouts (which again, aren't great, but are still relatively cheap), terminators, and maybe some assault troops in land raiders. Rune Priests are pretty solid. I'm happy with the Codex, but it doesn't have that PSB, Crusher, etc. type of unit either. And the cavalry (Space Wolves on Wolves) is nice, but at 50 points a head, even with abusing would allocation (which will cost you more points), I don't know that they're at the same level as TH/SS Termies, Crushers, etc.

ubermosher wrote:And "Operating Behind Enemy Lines" only allowed you to come in on opponent's side. The ability has been reduced to working 66% of the time, but now you can choose any table edge. That is an amazing tactical boon.

And OBEL could only work for 1 unit of Scouts in 3rd, now you can spam scouts and they might all come in off the back edge. And I will say, OBEL was nice against some armies, and junk against others - because after declaring OBEL, by RAW, they had to come in on that table edge. So, if your opponent moved out of their DZ, you had a unit of scouts walk on and had nothing to shoot. Personally, if I'm going to take Scouts, I'm probably taking 2 units, and figuring that means there's a 8 in 9 chance of getting at least one coming in from anywhere.

So far i think shep has given this entire thread a fething good summing up
From what you have said i actually agree, its not until you look at it all as a whole you realise that there is nothing major game breaking there.
However, some lists will have to watch out a bit more (nidzilla mainly) when playing pups since they have some new tricks.

Points wise, i think they have been done pertty well here, nothing seems to be good without a fitting price tag clipped to it.

I may change my BA army for when pups hit, but thats mainly due to be over cautious.
Last thing i want is to have valuable units of mine smashed apart by little more than "magic"
So i think a libby may have to run with my termies for a while until i get a grasp on how they work.

dietrich wrote:Skyclaws are only 18 points. Yep, for 3 points, you just strapped a jump pack onto a Bloodclaw. It doesn't make them hideously good, but they're cheap enough to make it into some lists. Especially since you can add an IC or WGPL with a jump pack (which gets a little pricey, but isn't horribly).

Agreed, with the second PW from a WG along with the with the +2 on the charge, sky claws are one of the more effective close combat jump troops in the game...and that is what jump troops are suppose to be good at, CC. They are not mind blowingly awesome, but I think they are ecomical for what you get.

JD21290 wrote:So far i think shep has given this entire thread a fething good summing up .

I concur. Interesting read. I`ll try and challenge the local "Wolf Lord" to a test match against my Guard as soon as possible. It should be interesting. The shooting might of Imperial Guard against the close combat ferocity of the Sons of Russ.

The only thing I really disagree with is the Skyclaw assessment. Also you forgot to add in that termies can use their drop pods which is a huge boon, and dreads have some other gear that isn't to bad.

1st the Skyclaws. They are far and away at least 33% better in assault on the first turn than any other jump troops in the game against MEQ. That's without a WG leader attached. A 10 man Assault Marine squad w/out weapons costs 190. With a power weapon and single flamer they are 215. Skyclaws w/both of the above upgrades only cost 200. I'll probably be fielding a few and screening them with vehicles.

2nd the drop pods for termies. Safe deepstriking terminators that can have combi-weapons and stand up in combat is just sick. You pay a little bit but for only 3 points more than a standard termi you can get a "wolf claw" and a combi-melta which isn't something that should be ignored. This is more of an add-on to Shep's analysis.

3rd Dreads start w/an assault cannon. Just 105 which is nice. I can also upgrade them to hit on 3+. Granted odds are that the dreads will be the thing cut from the elite section when I need them to but it's still a little different.

All in all Shep's overview is very nice. I dont' think the new SW codex will be broken and my main tourney army is Nid's right now. I'm just gonna have to add shadows of the warp and try to position myself well

As a side not I'm going to be taking Mark of the Wulfen on every squad that can. d6+1 Rending attacks for 15pts can tip a lot of combats not to mention that no matter how silly it gives the chance to take out a dread without taking a fist. Someone should mathhammer that out the odds and see if the difference is worth a fist.

wyomingfox wrote:

dietrich wrote:Skyclaws are only 18 points. Yep, for 3 points, you just strapped a jump pack onto a Bloodclaw. It doesn't make them hideously good, but they're cheap enough to make it into some lists. Especially since you can add an IC or WGPL with a jump pack (which gets a little pricey, but isn't horribly).

Agreed, with the second PW from a WG along with the with the +2 on the charge, sky claws are one of the more effective close combat jump troops in the game...and that is what jump troops are suppose to be good at, CC. They are not mind blowingly awesome, but I think they are ecomical for what you get.

I totally agree. i think that is why the game developers are so vexed for jump infantry. Look at how many attacks stormboys get. They have the best floating fist in the game, and they move 12+D6". And they are cheap! There is just something about their lack of survivability going in that ruins them. Close combat units that aren't protected by transports lose their effectiveness as they get shot up, and are generally wiped off the table after their first consolidate. Making skyclaws or stormboys any cheaper seems crazy, but at their current cost, they just can't seem to hold it together long enough to kill more than one target. And they have very little control over what that target is.

ubermosher wrote:Minor quibbles Shep: BC get 4 attacks on the charge, and Scouts only ever had 1 Melta gun. They could carry 2 power weapons and 2 plasma pistols in addition, but only 1 special. And "Operating Behind Enemy Lines" only allowed you to come in on opponent's side. The ability has been reduced to working 66% of the time, but now you can choose any table edge. That is an amazing tactical boon.

And you can still drop 5 MM Long Fangs and nuke 2 vehicles (or 2 IG squadrons)... you just need to take Logan to do it.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again, this army will be about the sagas and abilities making the list more than the sum of its units.

Yeah they do have 4 attacks on the charge, except their power fist holder, who is not choppy. He'll have 3 on the charge then 1 afterwards. Blood claws certainly have tons and tons of strength 4 attacks, and i those times where those attacks have value then the blood claws rule. But I just don't see those times pop up that often in my local games.

As to the scouts. They did only have one melta forgot that, and that is a good point about more than one scout unit getting behind enemy lines and having a bit more of a choice as to where you come in. I'd say that evens out. So we have a scout unit that was kinda good but not back breaking. And you can have more than one of them. If you give up lone wolves or wolf guard.

As for the MM long fangs. If I played space wolves, and i ran logan, I think that is how i'd plan to make my entrance with him but we all know that the unit will cost an arm and a leg, but what an entrance!

We've seen the sagas. There isn't anything that will 'unlock' some game breaker combo. I appreciate your stance and agree that using sagas wisely will make you a better space wolf general. But if your position is that 'certain sagas will break 40k' then I seriously disagree.

Majesty = company standard
beast slayer = master crafted thunder hammers
iron wolf = red paint
wolf = makes a bad unit better
bear = makes a non special character a special character
warrior born = slow bloodfeeder
hunter = kosarro khan

They are all good. i like them all. But we have analogs in game already, and none of them are particularly devastating. Cool? yes. Makes other armies unplayable? No.

thunderwolf cavalry - making an apples to oranges comparison, these guys cost 10 points more than bloodcrushers, for a loss of power armor and weapons and a point of toughness gain

Wait -- what armor save do these guys get?

Lowinor wrote:

thunderwolf cavalry - making an apples to oranges comparison, these guys cost 10 points more than bloodcrushers, for a loss of power armor and weapons and a point of toughness gain

Wait -- what armor save do these guys get?

Save 3+ and can still buy a Stormshield for 3+ Inv and cost almost the cost of a basic WGBL

Good analysis Shep although as has been said I think you are a little hard on skyclaws and fenrisians too. Whilst fleshhounds and rough riders may be comparable and rarely seen you need to consider the unit in the context of the rest of the list. With so many small expensive units in the wolf dex the opportunity to put some cheap, fast bodies that hit as hard as a GH will be taken by some players. Anyone wanting a 13th co analogue needs them for a start and any mech list might consider adding 1 squad for a cheap assault unit that hits turn 2 when the hunters are still getting out of their rhinos. I doubt you&ll see them in every list but I think they&Re actually quite a good unit.


One other thing about Canis. In addition to wolves as a troop choice (distinctly meh) he makes thunderwolf cav a troop choice. A canis led thunderwing might be the power build from this codex. At 250 pts for a unit of 5 1250 pts nets you 5 scoring fast moving multi wound units of 5 models that hit with str 5 and rending. Add in some equipment options (i.e. fists for tank hunting and MEQ busting) Canis at another 200 and maybe some speeders for fire support and that looks like a fun army to play with and quite a tough one to me.

Shep wrote:We've seen the sagas. There isn't anything that will 'unlock' some game breaker combo. I appreciate your stance and agree that using sagas wisely will make you a better space wolf general. But if your position is that 'certain sagas will break 40k' then I seriously disagree.

No, they won't "break" 40k at all, nor should they. I'm a faithful SW player (and have been chuckling at all the OMGz over WGT having access to drop pods... this is nothing new) and I don't want this codex to be the ubercodex, b/c as a smug SW player I don't want to see it become the flavor of the week.

What I'm stating is that analysis of sagas, character abilities, etc., and their interaction with units will reap more interesting tactics and play styles than the standard unit-by-unit analysis done for most new codices that come out, and that's what I am more looking forward to, and can't wait to get the book so I can get started.

Though that being said, I am greatly enthralled by the prospect of having 2X 6 Long Fangs with 10 Missile Launchers between them being able to fire at 4 different dedicated transports per turn, for about 280 points (if what I've read is true: 15 pt Long Fangs, w/ 10 pt ML's). That is a ton of cheap utility to neutralize the maneuver of mech armies, and to also break open the hard shells to get at all those soft-gooey morsels inside. As I also play IG Mech-Vets, that is a combo I'm not looking forward to playing against.

ubermosher wrote:

Shep wrote:We've seen the sagas. There isn't anything that will 'unlock' some game breaker combo. I appreciate your stance and agree that using sagas wisely will make you a better space wolf general. But if your position is that 'certain sagas will break 40k' then I seriously disagree.

No, they won't "break" 40k at all, nor should they. I'm a faithful SW player (and have been chuckling at all the OMGz over WGT having access to drop pods... this is nothing new) and I don't want this codex to be the ubercodex, b/c as a smug SW player I don't want to see it become the flavor of the week.

What I'm stating is that analysis of sagas, character abilities, etc., and their interaction with units will reap more interesting tactics and play styles than the standard unit-by-unit analysis done for most new codices that come out, and that's what I am more looking forward to, and can't wait to get the book so I can get started.

Though that being said, I am greatly enthralled by the prospect of having 2X 6 Long Fangs with 10 Missile Launchers between them being able to fire at 4 different dedicated transports per turn, for about 280 points (if what I've read is true: 15 pt Long Fangs, w/ 10 pt ML's). That is a ton of cheap utility to neutralize the maneuver of mech armies, and to also break open the hard shells to get at all those soft-gooey morsels inside. As I also play IG Mech-Vets, that is a combo I'm not looking forward to playing against.

Agreed. If the Space Wolves become too amazing, then there would be WAY too many Space Wolves players, and that CANNOT BE!

Hulksmash wrote:The only thing I really disagree with is the Skyclaw assessment. Also you forgot to add in that termies can use their drop pods which is a huge boon, and dreads have some other gear that isn't to bad.

1st the Skyclaws. They are far and away at least 33% better in assault on the first turn than any other jump troops in the game against MEQ. That's without a WG leader attached. A 10 man Assault Marine squad w/out weapons costs 190. With a power weapon and single flamer they are 215. Skyclaws w/both of the above upgrades only cost 200. I'll probably be fielding a few and screening them with vehicles.

Strictly speaking this is true, but in my experience assault marines tend to travel with jump chaplains more often than not. How does the math hammer stack up for wounds per turn comparing skyclaws with vanilla assault marines+chap? (im too lazy, and not sure what the alleged statline on the claws is supposed to be, or I would do it myself). I would think litanies would make up for at least a decent portion of those extra attacks you get with the claws.

That being said, I agree that they are looking like they will probably be the strongest jump unit in the game (which excites me, because I love jump packs, but cant bring myself to play blood angels).

@Count

But then you are well over 100pts more than the Skyclaw unit. If I add in a Wolf Priest w/a jump pack I can do the same thing My point was point for point Skyclaws are far superior to assault marines. In fairness I think they are better than Stormboyz as well. The extra survivability and the same number of attack coupled w/st4 in4 every turn makes them worth 1.5x the points.

But it'd be something along the lines of 25 to 20. Which swings it to a 25% bonus to the assault squad. But I can add in half another squad for that one chaplain

i know earlier in the thread it said that WG termies could take a heavy weapon for every 5th terminator but is it every full 5 or portion thereafter? i.e. with 6 wolf guard can you take a heavy or do you have to get to 10 before you're elegible for the second one?

warboss wrote:i know earlier in the thread it said that WG termies could take a heavy weapon for every 5th terminator but is it every full 5 or portion thereafter? i.e. with 6 wolf guard can you take a heavy or do you have to get to 10 before you're elegible for the second one?

"for every 5 models in the squad, one wolfguard in terminator armor may take.." , so I'm assuming you need to take all 10 WG to get two terminators with heavy weapons.

However...note that it is not 'every 5th terminator', it's for every 5 models in the squad.

So, it is legal to take a full 10 man squad, give terminator armor and assault cannons to 2 of them, jump packs to the rest, and then at the start of the game split off the two termies to lead other squads. Wolf guard are extreemly versitile as a unit.

mikhaila wrote:

warboss wrote:i know earlier in the thread it said that WG termies could take a heavy weapon for every 5th terminator but is it every full 5 or portion thereafter? i.e. with 6 wolf guard can you take a heavy or do you have to get to 10 before you're elegible for the second one?

"for every 5 models in the squad, one wolfguard in terminator armor may take.." , so I'm assuming you need to take all 10 WG to get two terminators with heavy weapons.

However...note that it is not 'every 5th terminator', it's for every 5 models in the squad.

So, it is legal to take a full 10 man squad, give terminator armor and assault cannons to 2 of them, jump packs to the rest, and then at the start of the game split off the two termies to lead other squads. Wolf guard are extreemly versitile as a unit.

I can see beardy mofo's doing this .

Can we get a thread started that combines all the known info from both this thread and the SW codex thread please?

It would make it easier for everyone knowing that all the info is on page 1 and not over lots of pages across two threads.

(Sorry guys, I'm just getting a wee bit impatient.)

Me too, 'stiff. I've eyeballed the Codex no less than 5 times now. and it was 5 times in 3 days. So I am cutting myself off from the store. 3 weeks feels like forever.

Oh well, soon enough.

Farmer wrote:

mikhaila wrote:"for every 5 models in the squad, one wolfguard in terminator armor may take.." , so I'm assuming you need to take all 10 WG to get two terminators with heavy weapons.

However...note that it is not 'every 5th terminator', it's for every 5 models in the squad.

So, it is legal to take a full 10 man squad, give terminator armor and assault cannons to 2 of them, jump packs to the rest, and then at the start of the game split off the two termies to lead other squads. Wolf guard are extreemly versitile as a unit.

I can see beardy mofo's doing this .

i'm not actually a fan of that in general. if i were playing against another ATSKNF marine army or fearless'a'plenty chaos force, then i'd do it. otherwise, losing the ability to sweeping advance (which you do if the termie WG joins a unit in power armor) is too much of a price against squishy armies where you count on running them down.

Someone say what the Lone Wolf does exactly.

Hollismason wrote:Someone say what the Lone Wolf does exactly.

He fights aliens, and doesn't afraid of anything.

I like the way everythings going (I play a min # elite army) but two things worry me.

1st of all, what did the Wolf Priest do wrong? I would have been happy if theyd just taken the rules from chaps and apothecaries and added them (and their costs) into one wolf sized package. Now...

2nd, and I apologize if this has been covered but is there any reference (at all) to "No Matter the Odds"? That rule being nerfed by a certain useless FAQ writer screwed with a hell of a lot of my force mechanics.

Wait a minute...

According to the compiled list of info on page 16, Thunderwolf mounts can be given as 50 pt pieces of wargear to Elites, Fast Attack and HQ choices (which have their own pts values according to the list).
So basically, if this is correct, Wolf Guard can have Thunderwolves.

That means you can have over 100 Thunderwolf mounted models if you take Logan. 30 WG on TW for Elites, 60 for troops, 15 in fast attack with 3 WG squad leaders and 3 other characters on TW. I doubt that can be correct.

Thats a silly army, but it'll look kool.

radiohazard wrote:Wait a minute...

According to the compiled list of info on page 16, Thunderwolf mounts can be given as 50 pt pieces of wargear to Elites, Fast Attack and HQ choices (which have their own pts values according to the list).
So basically, if this is correct, Wolf Guard can have Thunderwolves.

That means you can have over 100 Thunderwolf mounted models if you take Logan. 30 WG on TW for Elites, 60 for troops, 15 in fast attack with 3 WG squad leaders and 3 other characters on TW. I doubt that can be correct.

Thats a silly army, but it'll look kool.

It will also cost thousands upon thousands of dollars with all those Canis conversions.

You know out there, somewhere in the BO tarpits and forests of greasy unwashed 4chan threads of the vast, horrible expanses of the internet there is a Warham infesting his mother's basement who will come to that idea on his own. Then he will believe he has found a friend in the game designers who also must share his love of wolf t-shirts and Wolverine, and buy this army simply as a simulacrum of friendship that this creature must certainly hold as his utmost desire after underage japanese girls and teaching english in Japan. He will buy this army, even if it means he has to sell every Rouroni Kenshin and Tenchi Muyo wallscroll he owns to afford it.


Luckily, we'll never see it because a hambeast like that won't have the dedication and work effort to even put together such an army, much less paint it. I wouldn' worry about it.

I can sculpt a better Thunderwolf and make 100 copies for $2,50 a pop.

I'm that cool.

One thing I want to know is if Canis makes F.Wolves and TW cav troops choices.

I've heard and read conflicting reports of this, which one is right?

Just F. Wolves as troops, not TW Cav.

Thanks Hulk

radiohazard wrote:One thing I want to know is if Canis makes F.Wolves and TW cav troops choices.

I've heard and read conflicting reports of this, which one is right?

He only makes Fenrisian Wolves troops choices, not the cav unit. It has to do with his fluff of being raised by fenrisian wolves and being able to communicate with them.

And the wolves can't score anyways. Lame.

ShumaGorath wrote:It will also cost thousands upon thousands of dollars with all those Canis conversions.

Unless you win ArdBoyz!

I think SWs got a good codex, but I agree with Shep, there doesn't seem to be the OMG this is Borken! Unit in it. There's powerful melee stuff in the list, but there's lots of powerful melee armies out there. Wolf Priest has potential, but I don't know that it's game-breaking in the same sense as Psyker Battle Squads or Lash. I'll have a lot of fun playing with the new codex, and I'm glad to get a new codex and new models.

I'm starting to wonder if SWs need to field LRs with pintle MMs and Speeders with MM/HF to have enough melta to pop transports (in addition to maybe GHs with 2 meltas in rhinos), and then let the BCs in the LR and/or with jump packs and/or the Thunderwolves clean up whatever spills out. I think the trick may be to pack as much melta-y goodness into the list as possible so the close-combat forces can clean up.

I'm a little disappointed that BCs are still only WS3, even though it's fluffy, especially since they kept Berserk Charge and didn't get Furious Charge. They're really a class-hammer. They'll hit with a ton of attacks, but most close combat units are going to hit back at 3+. T4 and Sv3 gives them some durability, but those extra hits add up. I was hoping they'd get Furious Charge, because going at I5 on the charge would eliminate some I4 opponents and have fewer people swinging back.

Scottywan82 wrote:And the wolves can't score anyways. Lame.

But if Canis makes them troop choices, they become scoring units in an army with him in. Yes?

No. The fen wolf rules say they never ever score.

In that case I agree. Lame.

Yeah there where a few things I was disappointed in when I saw it:

Wolf Lords can only take one saga and don't make any Wolf Guard Troops. So they went from a fairly useful character from the rumors, to the Land of Space Marine Captains, good but you will rarely see them.

Wolf Priests are nice, but are IMHO not as good as Chaplains.

Canis allows you to take Wolves as Troops that can never score. So like the Ork Codex, Space Wolves can field an army that auto-fails in objective missions.



However, I am still very pleased with the codex. I think it is fairly balanced and can introduce a different element to the meta-game. Space Wolves can do Terminators well, just not like the Terminator Assault Squads of the Codex Chapters. Logan got better. Ragnar got better. Wolf Scouts got a boast. Wolf Guard are what Chosen and Chaos Terminators should be. Long Fangs are usable (though still not competitive). Lone Wolfs will be used more then some think.

Overall, a very themed balanced competitive codex.

Mahu wrote:Long Fangs are usable (though still not competitive).

Can you give us a ball-park on their points? Early reports were 15 pts per LF, and 10 points for a missile launcher. That is 140 points for 5 Missile shots across 2 targets per turn, which given the meta-game slant towards mech armies, sounds very useful and relatively cheap.

ubermosher wrote:

Mahu wrote:Long Fangs are usable (though still not competitive).

Can you give us a ball-park on their points? Early reports were 15 pts per LF, and 10 points for a missile launcher. That is 140 points for 5 Missile shots across 2 targets per turn, which given the meta-game slant towards mech armies, sounds very useful and relatively cheap.

I know 15 is right, and I think 10 is as well. LCs are double, heavy bolters half, everything else is the same (iirc). But, they still have no ablative wounds and still can't move and shoot. If only they could take special weapons like some previous rumors, combined with a drop pod.....

But the upside of using missile launchers is you can put them in cover and then try to leverage their range to put them out of your enemy's threat range. And if your opponent fires missiles, LC's, and autocannon shots at them, that's less fire your rushing rhinos, LR's, skyclaws, drop pods, etc. are taking. For that point cost, it can be win-win.

I don't think that they're bad, but not sure they're good either. It's certainly an option, but they're non-scoring, so you can't camp on objectives with them. And they're only good against light armor, and don't have a lot of shots in the even the target is in cover, SMF, etc. Autocannons would have been nice for that, but that's soooooo pre-heresy. I haven't thought enough about the list to figure out some good builds. I've had dakka predators, whirlwinds, and landraiders work well for me, and they're all competing for the same heavy support slot.

Of course, I have two LF squads already assembled, (although, they're both short a model). I will have to try them out, especially with quintiple HBs and MLs. Coming in at 115 and 140 points is pretty tempting. While the design notes suggest that SWs are a more elite and fewer model count SM army, it seems like the opposite is true. Sure, you can load up on HQs and have a handful of models, but you can also take a lot of marines for not many points.

Scottywan82 wrote:And the wolves can't score anyways. Lame.

I lol'd, hard.

Typeline wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:And the wolves can't score anyways. Lame.

I lol'd, hard.

Unintentional I assure you. But glad I could make you lol.

Looking through the rumors about the wolves, I cannot seem to locate any prices, or exact contents of the Battilion boxed set. Have I just missed someone posting them? I checked on GW's preorder etc page, and have found NOTHING about the new releases.

The only thing that I HAVE seen is the scans of the marketing fluff, and I cant make out the prices (and even if I could, they are in Pounds not Dollars).

Seems like they are being quite tight lipped about this release. Does anyone know how much money I need to put aside for this kit?