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Post by: Demogerg
Lord Ragnarok from B&C wrote:
Slashgod from warseer wrote:Ok,as promised i tell you now what Phill Kelly talked to me.
I asked him about Björn and the rumour about his AV14. He responded that he couldn´t tell,but Björn would be the most survivable Cybot in Game.
We also talked in general about Space Wolves and he said that Space Wolves would have extrem stats and some nice special rules but would pay with a lot of points. "You will be always outnumbered".
Logan Grimnar isn´t a fighting character,he is more like Creed, he gives you some special abilities like standing near a Long Fangs and saying you become tank hunter. He will also give even imperial guard special rules,because he is an amazing leader.
If you want a close combat monster you should choose Ragnar,he is young and berserker like.
All of the Special characters will be priced high over Gazhgul Thraka.
I also asked him about Wulfen and 13. company.
I was a little bit shocked when he said that Wulfen won´t come back as a unit. He wanted them more mysterious. You can still fill in some wulfen,but not as a unit costing 18 Points.
And last,i asked him about the Sagas. He confirmed that Sagas will give the complete army boni,not just a unit.
That´s all what i can remember, I hope GD uk will reveal more.
sorry for my bad english,but it isn´t my mother tongue
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Post by: Da Boss
Sounds like Space Wolves are going to be Movie Marines.
Probably good times for people who like messing around with Pre-Heresy stuff.
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Post by: Tacobake
I hate to say it but it sounds kind of stupid. They have to be different I guess. If they want to do something so weird where is Inquisition and LatD?
All of this just to make Long Fangs usable again.
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Post by: notprop
Should this be in News/Rumors, not actually being about Space Hulk? 
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Post by: jmurph
Hrm, the pay alot of points sounds ominous. I am hoping that is doesn't mean 20 point Grey Hunters :-/
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Post by: Scottywan82
But that's how much they are now. Tactical marine plus counter attack plus CCW should cost....? How much? 4 points for CCW and counter attack is not too bad, really. I'd prefer it were cheaper, but I can understand mostly.
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Post by: Wannabe Writer
I really like the sound of these rumours. I've not played as Space Wolves before, however I have decided to collect them when they are re-released in Oct. They appeal to me as I view them as vikings in space. Therefore it is fitting with the viking sagas that they should always be outnumbered, the few against the many (I love the film The 13th Warrior which is a case in point). Plus we all know they are going to be hard as nails so being limited in numbers aint gonna be a prob.
Liking the idea behind Ragnar and Logan too.
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Post by: Lowinor
Really, it sounds like this may be the first loyalist marine codex that's actually different enough from Codex: Space Marines to warrant a separate codex. Of course, it's also sounding like SW are going to play pretty significantly different than they used to... But that's how much they are now. Tactical marine plus counter attack plus CCW should cost....? How much? 4 points for CCW and counter attack is not too bad, really. I'd prefer it were cheaper, but I can understand mostly.
It's a bit more complex than that. Normal marines come out to 17 points per model if you max out freebies (take a full Tactical Squad, free weapon upgrades). Chaos marines come out to 18 points per model if similarly equipped (10 marines, champ upgrade, flamer and HB) for trading ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Combat Tactics for +1 Ld and (effectively) +1 A. Not a terribly good deal, mind you, but they do get a bit more flexibility in unit construction, and perhaps more importantly were written prior to changes in the costing formulae for various units (e.g., compare costs of the identical Predators, and compare Raptors to Assault Marines). You can knock that down to 16.5 per model if you exclude the champ from the Chaos squad, and forgo the +1 Ld. Of course, Marines are forced to take their sergeant upgrade (which is, of course, factored in to their cost), but Chaos is more likely to take advantage of it by putting a special weapon on their champ. Given that I don't think anyone is seriously expecting SW to get Combat Squads or Combat Tactics, Chaos Marines are probably a pretty good baseline for Grey Hunter costs. If anything, they'll be cheaper, just as unit pricing seems to have slid a bit for most things since the Chaos codex was written. That is, of course, assuming that Grey Hunters stay somewhat the same. As it is, GH are 17 points per model with just BP/ CCW; SM currently get Bolter, BP, Frag and Krak grenades for their 17 points per model while Chaos get Bolter, BP, CCW, Frag and Krak for their 18ish. I'd be shocked if they got more expensive without getting significantly better rules. If we're expecting a Grey Hunter to have a standard marine statline with Bolter/ BP/ CCW/Frag/Krak, ATSKNF, Ld 8 and Counterattack, they aren't worth *much* more than a standard marine -- Counterattack is probably as good for a short-to-medium-ranged combat squad (as that's what SW are; they're not pure assault specialists) as Combat Tactics is for a resilient-and-biased-towards-shooting squad, leaving you to compare the value of Combat Squads (to a shooty squad) vs +1A (to a short-ranged squad). All in all, I don't think GH would be noticeably undercosted at the same price as tactical marines; in any case, they may be worth a point per model more, but anything more and I'd call them overcosted. Of course, the real question in pricing is how much their weapon upgrades cost and how many they get per squad -- something that's likely to more than eat any pricing difference between GH and tacticals anyway.
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Post by: whitedragon
Uhm...
If you are comparing Grey Hunters naked against naked CSM's, then the CSM's are 15 points a piece.
If you are comparing a ten man CSM squad with 2x specials, and a power fist champion to a similiarly equipped squad of grey hunters, then the Grey Hunters will most likely be more than 17 points a piece.
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Post by: Scottywan82
Yeah, I have to go with whitedragon on this one. Your math is VERY fuzzy. Even making the assumption of a ten man squad, ten tactical marines =/= ten grey hunters. Not as a baseline. You're far better off using the additional model points cost versus the cost of a single grey hunter.
15 points for CSM, 16 for SM.
I would say it's fair to swap Combat Tactics for Counter attack, in light of how combat tactics is swapped for lots of other abilities in Codex: SM. ATSKNF stays. Add a CCW, and I would expect to pay 17-18 points for a grey hunter.
I know this runs contradictory to what I said earlier, but I had not considered the combat tactics rule. I don't imagine there will be any cost difference for having combat squads or not, since that tends to be a points-neutral ability.
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Post by: Lowinor
whitedragon wrote:Uhm...
If you are comparing Grey Hunters naked against naked CSM's, then the CSM's are 15 points a piece.
If you are comparing a ten man CSM squad with 2x specials, and a power fist champion to a similiarly equipped squad of grey hunters, then the Grey Hunters will most likely be more than 17 points a piece.
Er, the point of that comparison was to try to more accurately compare CSM costs to SM costs, as SMs cost per model isn't particularly easy to figure without a lot of conditions and/or hand-waving. Specifically, to make some sort of educated guess how much a marine with +1A is worth. And Power Fist pricing never entered in to it.
Assuming Grey Hunters have a marine statline, Bolter/ BP/ CCW/Frag/Krak, ATSKNF and Counterattack, I don't think a squad of ten with two basic specials and an unupgraded sergeant is worth significantly more than the 170 points you'd pay for the same amount of vanilla marines. A fair price is probably in the 175-185 range, instead of the 170 for marines. I think 20 points per model is overcosted even with that level of equipment; Counterattack and adding the CCW isn't worth that much more than Combat Squads and Combat Tactics.
If they get Combat Tactics (or some other extra rule, e.g., Stubborn) all bets are off.
I'm really not sure what to predict for costs -- I seem to historically undervalue non-power weapon attacks compared to GW (as I think CSM are overcosted compared to SM currently, and the extra attack vs. superior SM morale rules is the main difference), but at the same time the overall design of recent codices seems to be on a downward trend when it comes to troop points. Automatically Appended Next Post: Scottywan82 wrote:Yeah, I have to go with whitedragon on this one. Your math is VERY fuzzy. Even making the assumption of a ten man squad, ten tactical marines =/= ten grey hunters. Not as a baseline. You're far better off using the additional model points cost versus the cost of a single grey hunter.
15 points for CSM, 16 for SM.
It's fuzzy because to have any accurate comparison of costs, you have to take more things into account these days.
You can't directly compare 15 points for a CSM to 16 for a SM since that cost for the SM has advantages other than the model itself built into it -- you get more than ten loyalist marines when you buy ten loyalist marines. You get exactly ten CSMs when you buy ten CSMs.
Comparing squads with unupgraded sergeants is, imo, the most fair way to figure values -- SM are forced to take the sergeant, CSM and SW aren't but are more likely to want to take one (speaking as someone who plays Chaos, SW, and SM, as SM, I'd skip the sergeant upgrade if I could; my squads are shooty, so I'm not as interested in the special close combat weapon, and since I have ATSKNF I want to fail most morale checks I'm asked to make, so the sergeant's Ld bonus is largely useless (and actively detrimental if I'm taking Vulkan and thus lose Combat Tactics)).
I would say it's fair to swap Combat Tactics for Counter attack, in light of how combat tactics is swapped for lots of other abilities in Codex: SM. ATSKNF stays. Add a CCW, and I would expect to pay 17-18 points for a grey hunter.
I know this runs contradictory to what I said earlier, but I had not considered the combat tactics rule. I don't imagine there will be any cost difference for having combat squads or not, since that tends to be a points-neutral ability.
I'm not sure what we'll end up paying. If we end up with GH as discussed above, I suspect 10x GH with two flamers (or equivalent upgrades) and an unupgraded Wolf Guard will weigh in just under 200 points.
Now, if we end up with other special rules, all bets are off. This includes if Wolf Guard get dramatically more powerful (as has been rumored), or the Sagas have significant whole-army effects (as has been rumored). So everything's really all up in the air.
But Grey Hunters are significantly overcosted now, and 20 points for a GH as discussed is overcosted still. IMO, at least.
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Post by: whitedragon
Lowinor wrote:
You can't directly compare 15 points for a CSM to 16 for a SM since that cost for the SM has advantages other than the model itself built into it -- you get more than ten loyalist marines when you buy ten loyalist marines. You get exactly ten CSMs when you buy ten CSMs.
Comparing squads with unupgraded sergeants is, imo, the most fair way to figure values -- SM are forced to take the sergeant, CSM and SW aren't but are more likely to want to take one (speaking as someone who plays Chaos, SW, and SM, as SM, I'd skip the sergeant upgrade if I could; my squads are shooty, so I'm not as interested in the special close combat weapon, and since I have ATSKNF I want to fail most morale checks I'm asked to make, so the sergeant's Ld bonus is largely useless (and actively detrimental if I'm taking Vulkan and thus lose Combat Tactics)).
Chaos Marine Squads cannot be compared directly to Marine squads because they are much more flexible, and depend heavily on what else is in your army. They can be enhanced by Fabius Bile, given Icon's (which also act as teleport homers) and they have higher leadership which can be situationally better than regular Marines in the case of shooting casaulties and pinning tests. And that's just for starters.
This is the reason GW says they don't look at point costs across codicies.
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Post by: Mastiff
Thanks for the new info. I'm pretty happy with the changes, if only to move them further away from the standard codex SM.
But I wish the preview WD would get released already. I really want to pick up some bikes for my space-woofs, but don't know how they'll fit in with all the upcoming changes.
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Post by: Jive Professor
Wulfen as unit attachments? Yes, I would like more MEQ Werewolves in my squads...
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Post by: wyomingfox
Scottywan82 wrote:But that's how much they are now. Tactical marine plus counter attack plus CCW should cost....? How much? 4 points for CCW and counter attack is not too bad, really. I'd prefer it were cheaper, but I can understand mostly.
Except that is not how SM now work. SM get a free upgrade ala "combat tactics" which can be changed out for "fleet", "infiltrate". "stubborn", twin linked weapons, or ect, depending on the SC you buy. Counter Attack would simply be the "free" replacement for "combat tactics". So if GH end up costing 20 pts a pop, I would expect them to get alot more.
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Post by: Kaotik
I remember hearing rumblings of the GH getting 2 base attacks and still being unable to have both pistols/bolters. I don't see how this would equate to a cost that much more. It is just the only thing I can remember reading through these rumors threads that effected them.
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Post by: Chaplain Pallantide
So far I am loving the rumors about Space Wolves. They were the first Army I ever had, behind Eldar that is. I have several True (or Art) Scale marines who are eagerly awaiting October to become Space Wolves.
I am also interested in the Wolves being limited or smaller in number. I love Space Marine stories that have a few against many, much like Brotherhood of the Snake by Dan Abnett. And the Space wolf graphic novel. SO I am extremely excited by that.
I kind of wished space marines were more like the "movie" marines...(But more balanced)
Just my own humble opinion.
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Post by: Tacobake
Yeah I'll probably get some. What's another army.
I would like to see 13 point Blood Claws.
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Post by: Kaotik
With the rumored changes of WS4 and gaining Furious Charge over Zerker I highly doubt they will remain at the cost they are now. I honestly dunno how they are going to justify not giving an army cheap troop choices in a game that 2/3 of the standard RB missions are node based. I would'nt be hurt if the rumors about them turned out to be false and they remained as is.
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Post by: Dark
I've been liking most of what I've read here, still, I can't wait until the 'dex is released.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Sucks to be a 13th Co. player. Come and join all us LatD and Ulthwe Strike Force players.  And this: He responded that he couldn´t tell
I am getting increasingly more rage-filled by GW. Why not tell? Why not hype your products with information and teases rather than keeping your lips shut? How does keeping everyone in the dark help you? This is the first Space Wolf Codex since 3rd Edition - we've had two edition changes since then - so this is a big deal for both the game and for Woof players. Why haven't we been getting previews online and WD for the past couple of months? Where's the designer dairy? Where's Phil upselling his great new Codex? No, he has to remain silent and only give cryptic hints. GW are a bunch of slowed monkey fethers who wouldn't know what 'good business sense' was even if it came right up and RAPED THEM.
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Post by: Chaplain Pallantide
I have to agree with HBMC. I loved it when GW would reveal all sorts of things during their Games Day season! Back when I was a red shirt we would get all sorts of rumors which helped to generate positive buzz about the various games, but lately I don't even bother with Games Day news, cause most of the time, there is nothing to report.
It would have been cool to see the sprue or some different wolf guys something at least!!
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Post by: Mastiff
H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW are a bunch of slowed monkey fethers who wouldn't know what 'good business sense' was even if it came right up and RAPED THEM.
Really? We're eagerly sucking up every crumb of info that drops from their table, writing 10 page threads on even the slightest whiff of a rumour. Speculation is doing a great job of fueling anticipation, and every time a "well-connected" GW staff member so much as farts we all yip like Pavlov's dogs.
I'd say they have a very  ing good grasp on marketing to this audience.
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Post by: Grimhowl
I've been thinking that GW's current policies of withholding information to the last minute may be an overreaction to earlier codexes being leaked prior to release. It's damned annoying and understandable from that point of view, but still problematic from a business standpoint.
As a long time wolf player what I want most is concrete information, what's changing? how much do these Sagas cost and do they give more than access to universal special rules(perhaps FNP, etc)?. I accept that the army I have been running will change, that's a given, but I'd like to buy things in anticipation of the coming changes and I currently can't do that because I don't know for sure what they are. I guess there current policies due allow the internet to do what it does best, page after page of posts and discussion, some civil, some not, but all largely irrelevant because it's spun off from some tiny fragment of a rumor that may not end up being true at all.
wow, reading that through makes me sound like a bitter old man... 
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Post by: Typeline
H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW are a bunch of slowed monkey fethers who wouldn't know what 'good business sense' was even if it came right up and RAPED THEM.
To pull that off you'd have to be some kind of... tactical genius... Grimhowl wrote:I've been thinking that GW's current policies of withholding information to the last minute may be an overreaction to earlier codexes being leaked prior to release. It's damned annoying and understandable from that point of view, but still problematic from a business standpoint. As a long time wolf player what I want most is concrete information, what's changing? how much do these Sagas cost and do they give more than access to universal special rules(perhaps FNP, etc)?. I accept that the army I have been running will change, that's a given, but I'd like to buy things in anticipation of the coming changes and I currently can't do that because I don't know for sure what they are. I guess there current policies due allow the internet to do what it does best, page after page of posts and discussion, some civil, some not, but all largely irrelevant because it's spun off from some tiny fragment of a rumor that may not end up being true at all. wow, reading that through makes me sound like a bitter old man...
So your saying that you think GW is worried the codex will be leaked and downloaded for free on the internet? What's the point of withholding the info then? Because, come launch day, that codex is for free on the internet. People who download it before it's out might actually go out and buy the codex then. But I know 4chan (/tg/ specifically) will have it, as soon as a copy is available. Maybe even sooner.
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Post by: Archonate
Mastiff wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:
GW are a bunch of slowed monkey fethers who wouldn't know what 'good business sense' was even if it came right up and RAPED THEM.
Really? We're eagerly sucking up every crumb of info that drops from their table, writing 10 page threads on even the slightest whiff of a rumour. Speculation is doing a great job of fueling anticipation, and every time a "well-connected" GW staff member so much as farts we all yip like Pavlov's dogs.
I'd say they have a very ing good grasp on marketing to this audience.
I disagree. If GW had marketing talent, they'd have us: eagerly sucking up every crumb of info that drops from their table, writing 10 page threads on even the slightest whiff of a rumour
WITHOUT irritating the living hell out of us... (which is what they used to do before all this slowed secrecy.)
I'm totally with H.B. on this.
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Post by: The_Chaplain
To pull that off you'd have to be some kind of... tactical genius...
CREEEEEEEEEEED!!!!
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Typeline wrote:But I know 4chan (/tg/ specifically) will have it, as soon as a copy is available. Maybe even sooner.
I dunno man. The Guard Codex took a while to show up as a PDF. Took at a week or so after it's release to show up. That was annoying as the Chaos and Ork ones showed up before they were released and the Marine one was very quick.
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Post by: Typeline
H.B.M.C. wrote:Typeline wrote:But I know 4chan (/tg/ specifically) will have it, as soon as a copy is available. Maybe even sooner.
I dunno man. The Guard Codex took a while to show up as a PDF. Took at a week or so after it's release to show up. That was annoying as the Chaos and Ork ones showed up before they were released and the Marine one was very quick.
I'm sure there will be plenty of fa/tg/uys putting the woofs codex up to rage about it with other people as quickly as possible.
Or it could be like the Eberron player's guide for 4e. People would start thread after thread begging people to scan it. No scans for like two weeks. But you win some and you loose some.
Regardless I will not be paying for the codex until I know it is worth my money.
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Post by: Rated G
Typeline wrote:
I'm sure there will be plenty of fa/tg/uys putting the woofs codex up to rage about it with other people as quickly as possible.
I see what you did there.
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Post by: Clang
I'm hoping SW will indeed have extra-super-duper stats and cost appropriately more points to match - we need a genuinely unique chapter, not just pale grey marines with wolf icons on them.
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Post by: Dark
I second that, I want the concept of space vikingr to be reflected on the rules
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Post by: Wannabe Writer
Dark wrote:I second that, I want the concept of space vikingr to be reflected on the rules
I third that!
12030
Post by: Demogerg
Yes, lets all hope our armies become stupidly OP and make other people nerdrage over how awesome we are.
/sarcasm off
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Post by: Typeline
Demogerg wrote:Yes, lets all hope our armies become stupidly OP and make other people nerdrage over how awesome we are.
fix'd
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Let's all watch Super Troopers and settle down here.
I never mind playing against Woofies, but it was usually more the players who played the army. They remind me of the upity SM crowd. Here anyway.
Put all the SM chapters in one Codex please.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Troll Much
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Nope - I'll put it in my sig if it makes you feel better.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
wyomingfox wrote:Troll Much
He's not trolling. He just doesn't like SMs having more than 1 Codex.
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Post by: Demogerg
JohnHwangDD wrote:wyomingfox wrote:Troll Much
He's not trolling. He just doesn't like SMs having more than 1 Codex.
putting it his sig or not, going into a thread about SW rumors and complaining about an army getting a codex after Nine Years without an update is trolling
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Post by: Sirius42
I'm hoping Bjorn will be available through extras on the plastic sprue (a'la master of the RW in land speeder) Because there is no way he'll be all metal (think of the cost) and hybrid kits are a pain (and something GW seems to be moving away from).
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Post by: Alpharius
SW will get a boost, there will be drawbacks (most likely the points it will cost to field them!) and people will rage over another SM Codex coming out before an overdue Xenos update (and yes, they will have a leg to stand on).
However, the above poster is correct: coming in to the Space Wolf Rumors thread to complain about Space Wolves?
Not the right idea.
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
Not complaining about SW - general complaint for SM in general.
My original comment was about the players in my area.
The more OP the better. Just means when DA get re-released it will be awesome.
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Post by: Typeline
Sirius42 wrote:I'm hoping Bjorn will be available through extras on the plastic sprue (a'la master of the RW in land speeder) Because there is no way he'll be all metal (think of the cost) and hybrid kits are a pain (and something GW seems to be moving away from).
Are you certain GW is concerned with how much you'll be paying?
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Post by: Mattlov
"Always being outnumbered" doesn't seem to fit the GW model of SELL MORE CRAP very well.
I'm hoping "extreme stats" is an exaggeration. If they are better stat-wise than a Grey Knight, that would be rather silly.
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Post by: whitedragon
Demogerg wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:wyomingfox wrote:Troll Much
He's not trolling. He just doesn't like SMs having more than 1 Codex.
putting it his sig or not, going into a thread about SW rumors and complaining about an army getting a codex after Nine Years without an update is trolling
No, it's not trolling at all. It's constructive criticism. And actually, since the Space Wolf codex links off the Marine codex, you could argue that wolves have gotten two updates, the 4th and 5th edition marine codicies. I know all the wolf players around here are insanely happy with the mix and match they get out of both books.
On the contrary, it stands to reason why GW thinks it necessary to release another Marine Codex when there are other books that are in far greater need of some 5th edition love, like maybe Tau and Necrons, (who fared especially poor in the 5th ed redux) or even Dark Eldar.
(Of course we all know the real reason, because marines of any flavor sell better.)
So...Demogerg, it is you that are trolling.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Hey whitedragon - that Avatar of yours, what is that?
That's trolling.
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
lol, are those the new Dark Eldar models!?
/sarcasm off
Maybe they're new SW characters. The Valk's! Just need wings.
Seriously though. I'm all for updating all codex before releasing yet another edition.
I hope Bjorn is AV 14. DA got Sammael and his 14 Speeder.
BT already have AV !4 transports. It's not like they're going to let you take multiple versions of Bjorn.
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Post by: dienekes96
Back to this? Seriously? Every xenos race except DE has gotten a release since SW. Tau and Tyranids are less than 5 years old.
And whining about Sm getting crunched into a single book became irrelevant over a year ago when they announced the 5th edition SM Codex contents. Since SW aren't in that book, and I've waited 9.5 years, how's about my army gets a release.
I hope GW makes a billion dollars on Woofs, cashes out selling the game to Hasbro, and that your xenos army gets released in pog form only next year.
If anyone feels the need to whine or troll, make it informed, or at the very least relevant.
Thanks.
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Post by: tealzooka
dienekes96 wrote:Back to this? Seriously? Every xenos race except DE has gotten a release since SW. Tau and Tyranids are less than 5 years old.
And whining about Sm getting crunched into a single book became irrelevant over a year ago when they announced the 5th edition SM Codex contents. Since SW aren't in that book, and I've waited 9.5 years, how's about my army gets a release.
I hope GW makes a billion dollars on Woofs, cashes out selling the game to Hasbro, and that your xenos army gets released in pog form only next year.
If anyone feels the need to whine or troll, make it informed, or at the very least relevant.
Thanks.
Noooo I dont want those xenos throwing pog at my wolves.
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Post by: Demogerg
whitedragon wrote:Demogerg wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:wyomingfox wrote:Troll Much
He's not trolling. He just doesn't like SMs having more than 1 Codex.
putting it his sig or not, going into a thread about SW rumors and complaining about an army getting a codex after Nine Years without an update is trolling
No, it's not trolling at all. It's constructive criticism. And actually, since the Space Wolf codex links off the Marine codex, you could argue that wolves have gotten two updates, the 4th and 5th edition marine codicies. I know all the wolf players around here are insanely happy with the mix and match they get out of both books.
On the contrary, it stands to reason why GW thinks it necessary to release another Marine Codex when there are other books that are in far greater need of some 5th edition love, like maybe Tau and Necrons, (who fared especially poor in the 5th ed redux) or even Dark Eldar.
(Of course we all know the real reason, because marines of any flavor sell better.)
So...Demogerg, it is you that are trolling.
So wait, you think I am trolling my own thread?
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Post by: Lorek
Demogerg, the GTFO comment is a bit much; we all know what it stands for. Please click on Rule #1 in my sig for a list of the Dakka rules.
Thank you.
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Post by: BrookM
Putting it in bold is overkill.
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Post by: Demogerg
Removed.
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Post by: migsula
The rumors sound good!
and +1 to what Dienekes said!!!
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Post by: Archonate
I've come to terms with Wolves getting their codex. I just wish GW would hurry the feth up with it already. I'm happy for all the giddy SW players and all, but I personally don't care to hear about more SMs. Xeno codices are much more interesting to me and I'm excited to see what's next. Hopefully we'll get 2 or 3 xeno codices in a row to make up for the consecutive imperial releases.
I really do hope SW players are generally satisfied with all their exciting changes. I'm excited to play against them too. Having lots of Dark Lances becomes more effective when fighting a smaller army! 
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Post by: Rated G
Archonate wrote:
I really do hope SW players are generally satisfied with all their exciting changes. I'm excited to play against them too. Having lots of Dark Lances becomes more effective when fighting a smaller army!
See, that's the spirit. Lemonade from lemons and all that.
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Post by: Shaman
I might pick up wolves if they are another low model count army.. The vehicle spam that is the meta right now cost lots of moolah.
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Post by: Casper
Shaman wrote:I might pick up wolves if they are another low model count army.. The vehicle spam that is the meta right now cost lots of moolah.
I doubt GW will give SW expensive transports. They will mech up like every other army if they want to be competative. If tournaments are not your thing, then yes SW probably can be made on the cheap (compared to other not mech armies). Do we have any idea how much the new boxes will cost?
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Post by: TBD
Are the Space Wolves expected to get the Ironclad Dreadnought as well?
And the Assault Cannon option for the Razorback?
(not sure if that is standard for every marine codex)
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Post by: Tacobake
^^ This game is long overdue for AV15 on something.
migsula, Archonate and Shaman win at Avatars.
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Post by: jab4962
TBD wrote:Are the Space Wolves expected to get the Ironclad Dreadnought as well?
And the Assault Cannon option for the Razorback?
(not sure if that is standard for every marine codex)
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you can already use them. The first page of the Space Wolves codex states "When choosing your army, you may make choices from the Space Marine Codex and/or Space Wolves Codex." It has no written limitations to it.
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Post by: Sirius42
Typeline wrote:Sirius42 wrote:I'm hoping Bjorn will be available through extras on the plastic sprue (a'la master of the RW in land speeder) Because there is no way he'll be all metal (think of the cost) and hybrid kits are a pain (and something GW seems to be moving away from).
Are you certain GW is concerned with how much you'll be paying?
Touche. I don't know what came over me.
123
Post by: Alpharius
I do wonder what we'll be paying for all of these Wolves, both in terms of points and dollars (substitute your local currency here).
I think I'll only really need the "Wolf Box" of parts that's been rumored.
Well, maybe a couple of those boxes, but still...
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Well, like with my puting a patent on 'Golden Globes' if the Skaven Poison Wind Globadiers turn out to be priced like 'Goldswords', let me also patent the title 'Gold Teeth', if Long Fangs end up as the same price.
And Gold Guard, Bling Claws and Grey Gold.
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Post by: temprus
Since the SW will be a lower count army, the new Battleforce box will just be a single Wolf Pack box with a Rhino.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
And bikes. Don't forget the bikes. They always have bikes as everyone both wants and needs more bikes.
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Post by: Alpharius
I wish I could say "No way!" but given the almost random nature of GW pricing lately combined with some ominous remarks from their last quarterly (or was that yearly?) review, I don't know!
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Post by: Da Boss
H.B.M.C. wrote:And bikes. Don't forget the bikes. They always have bikes as everyone both wants and needs more bikes.
That made me laugh out loud. Cheers.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Alpharius wrote:I wish I could say "No way!" but given the almost random nature of GW pricing lately combined with some ominous remarks from their last quarterly (or was that yearly?) review, I don't know!
There is nothing random about GW pricing, as "random" would tend to imply that prices go up *and* prices also go down with nearly equal likelihood. In general, GW prices only go up. Ergo, there is a clear pattern. The only question is by how much GW will raise prices on a given item in a given year.
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Post by: dietrich
H.B.M.C. wrote:And bikes. Don't forget the bikes. They always have bikes as everyone both wants and needs more bikes.
Unless Bikes are effective with SWs, then they'll find a different useless unit. Jump pack troops maybe?
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Post by: Alpharius
JohnHwangDD wrote:Alpharius wrote:I wish I could say "No way!" but given the almost random nature of GW pricing lately combined with some ominous remarks from their last quarterly (or was that yearly?) review, I don't know!
There is nothing random about GW pricing, as "random" would tend to imply that prices go up *and* prices also go down with nearly equal likelihood. In general, GW prices only go up. Ergo, there is a clear pattern. The only question is by how much GW will raise prices on a given item in a given year.
I'll agree in that you have to look hard to see them, but there are a few random elements to their pricing scheme.
Even if it is only that things go UP in a randomly (seemingly) determined amount.
That is, Gold Swords, the Orc Warlord on Wyvern, etc.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
JohnHwangDD wrote:There is nothing random about GW pricing, as "random" would tend to imply that prices go up *and* prices also go down with nearly equal likelihood.
That word - I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Doobie! You live! You need to post more. The board misses your hit & run logic-attacks (like the one above).
18237
Post by: jab4962
Does anybody know how many special characters there will be in the new codex?
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Post by: Rated G
jab4962 wrote:Does anybody know how many special characters there will be in the new codex?
That depends on how many army variants we get.
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Post by: Railguns
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:There is nothing random about GW pricing, as "random" would tend to imply that prices go up *and* prices also go down with nearly equal likelihood.
That word - I do not think it means what you think it means.
Don't tease now, Abby. I've gone this whole year thinking the only guys left from old Dakka were HBMC, me, and maybe one more that lurks but doesn't ever say anything. Was that you? Are we alone as I thought? I miss Therion and Mauleed.
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Post by: Demogerg
jab4962 wrote:Does anybody know how many special characters there will be in the new codex?
SPECULATION: we know we have Ragnar, Logan, Bjorn. We suspect that we will have Ulrik, Njal, "Wolfriding Guy", I would not be suprized if they added even another on top of these.
If I had to guess I would say 7.
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Post by: Winter
From what i have heard, there is Ragnar, Logan, Njal is a definate, i know people who have seen him, apparently he is in terminator armour this time around.
THe wolf riding character, and there is what has been described to me as a trickster character, seems to be some norse reference, i dunno, was weird :S
And i would say ulrik will make it in agian, and bjorn is there too.
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Post by: acreedon
Winter wrote:From what i have heard, there is Ragnar, Logan, Njal is a definate, i know people who have seen him, apparently he is in terminator armour this time around.
THe wolf riding character, and there is what has been described to me as a trickster character, seems to be some norse reference, i dunno, was weird :S
And i would say ulrik will make it in agian, and bjorn is there too.
in norse mythology the reference of a trickster is Loki i believe, and the wolf in norse mythology is fenir(spelling?) one is a reference to the devil (loki).
Where as Fenir is the wolf who kills odin! i am curious as to how they were referenced. Because if they are referenced then the space wolfs are going to get a point in my book.
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Post by: Rated G
"Trickster" character could be cool. I envision a Wolf Scout character.
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Post by: skyth
acreedon wrote:one is a reference to the devil (loki).
Incorrect
17543
Post by: acreedon
would then who would a the trickester loki be in norse mythology?
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Post by: skrulnik
Loki is not an analog to the devil.
My feeling of the Norse mythos was that he was everything bad about men. Selfish, cruel, and dishonest. Not the driving power behind all evil in the world.
Fenrir, or Fenris was one of Loki's children, along with Hel, the ruler of Niflheim (or Hel), and the serpent of Midgard.
Loki was not killed, because he was family, but he was imprisoned, strapped to a rock, and a serpent's poison dripped into his eyes.
I think a Loki/Trickster type would be in the fluff at least, someone the others don't really trust, but is likely a scout or psyker. Though i could see him being a captain.
I think that Loki was part of the inspiration for the Azazel character in the Sigmar novels.
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Post by: Tacobake
Whatever it is, I am sure Jervis knows what he is doing.
17543
Post by: acreedon
O to my knowledge loki is their illusion of a devil because like most other religions the devil is view as a trickster... but we digress.
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Post by: jab4962
Demogerg wrote:jab4962 wrote:Does anybody know how many special characters there will be in the new codex?
SPECULATION: we know we have Ragnar, Logan, Bjorn. We suspect that we will have Ulrik, Njal, "Wolfriding Guy", I would not be suprized if they added even another on top of these.
If I had to guess I would say 7.
I believe the wolf riding guy was named Canis Wolfborn if I am correct.
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Post by: Oldgrue
Tacobake wrote:Whatever it is, I am sure Jervis knows what he is doing.
Now if he can pass that onto Arby...
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
Tacobake wrote:Whatever it is, I am sure Jervis knows what he is doing.
Tacobake wrote:Jervis knows what he is doing.
What the hell are you smoking?
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Post by: Sidstyler
Indeed, that does deserve a "lolwhut?"
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Has there been any word on redoing any of the special characters besides Njal? I really like what I'm hearing about Ragnar Blackmane, but that miniature is awful.
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Post by: Mastiff
Cheese Elemental wrote:Tacobake wrote:Whatever it is, I am sure Jervis knows what he is doing.
Tacobake wrote:Jervis knows what he is doing.
What the hell are you smoking?
Cannabis Wolfborn?
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Post by: dietrich
Rumor is that "all" of the special characters are be redone. Ragnar, Ulrk, and Njal all have that 'second edition flat pose' syndrome going, so I think that it is pretty reasonable to assume they're all being redone. And we know that there is a mini for Canis riding his wolf. Logan Grimnar is a relatively recent model (well, third edition, so what, like 10 years old?), but when he was released, he was one of the first 'biggerized' terminators. Now, Logan is the same size, or even smaller, than the current plastic models. I would guess that he won't get a new model coming out this year, but it's possible that GW redoes the model down the road.
My guess is that Ragnar will be leading a lot of Space Wolf armies, just like you see Vulkan and Eldrad in a lot of armies.
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Post by: Angron
Railguns wrote:Abadabadoobaddon wrote:JohnHwangDD wrote:There is nothing random about GW pricing, as "random" would tend to imply that prices go up *and* prices also go down with nearly equal likelihood.
That word - I do not think it means what you think it means.
Don't tease now, Abby. I've gone this whole year thinking the only guys left from old Dakka were HBMC, me, and maybe one more that lurks but doesn't ever say anything. Was that you? Are we alone as I thought? I miss Therion and Mauleed.
HEY! I'm still here! I'm hurt! Automatically Appended Next Post: Mastiff wrote:Cheese Elemental wrote:Tacobake wrote:Whatever it is, I am sure Jervis knows what he is doing.
Tacobake wrote:Jervis knows what he is doing.
What the hell are you smoking?
Cannabis Wolfborn?
I just ROFL'd myself
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Post by: 1hadhq
Seen this at the B&C:
These were posted by Zarahemna on Librarium Online.
"My brothers Njal the storm caller has granted me this vision so that you too may know the terrible might of the Space Wolves and howl as their heavy tread draws closer!
I know not of the new range of miniature representations of the sons of Russ, but I have seen the awesomeness of their almighty codex. Gather round now and listen!
Characters:
Njal Stormcaller:
Njal is back in all of his glory. The cyber raven joins him and the most easy comparison is with Tigurius, except that he wears terminator armour and carries mighty runes which blaze and improve his invulnerable save to a 4+. Truly unstoppable he remains.
A storm now covers Njal and this affects enemy shooting and combat prowess (-1 to both within 18" or something like that) and at higher levels can destroy foes and cast them around the table with it's mighty winds. Njal is the master of all six Space Wolf Psychic powers and yes, he is really expensive. Think 250+ points.
Bjorn the Fell Handed. Bjorn is incredibly strong, AV13 to the front and of course venerable. Put those two factors together and he is an almighty warrior. He has four attacks basic and is strength seven. He is also very expensive.
There is also a Telion type upgrade for the Space Wolf equivalent to scouts. This hero, more than three centuries old is the equivalent of a captain and yet with his unruly manners cannot be accepted among the battle brothers, not least because he stole one of the Chapter's thunderhawks and then crashed it during his flight. He upgrades his squad, I cannot remember how.
Battle Brothers:
All Space Wolves have counter attack and acute senses.
Wolf Guard are deceptive, they start off at a little over thirty points but they get very expensive very quickly. A wolf guard with Thunder hammer and Storm Shield weighs in at just under seventy!
There is a character with a special storm shield who can get an extra attack which represents him slapping his opponent with the shield when he charges. He also has furious charge and a thunder hammer that he can throw in a shooting attack. yes, a thrown thunder hammer. When it hits the foe there is an explosion and it reappears with a flash in his hands... Not bad eh?
Blood Claws now come in three flavours, bikers, jump packers and infantry. They remain slightly less able than regualr marines in shooting and close combat but are still really deadly...
Wulfen are gone as a unit.
There is a character who rides a Fenrisian wolf in to battle. It's a bit He-Man esque, but in a good way.
Long Fangs, Heavy Bolters for only a handful of points, you know about the same as a meltagun for regular marines... Also you can carry five heavy weapons... It's brilliant.
How much is a regular Space Wolf? xx points? Oh and you get a special weapon for free. Oh, and if you take ten you get a second special weapon for free... Ten men, and two special weapons for 150 points? Sounds good eh?
Kit? Oh yeah, every space wolf carries a chainsword, bolt pistol and boltgun. Extra attacks, I think so. You can kiss good bye to true grit though.
Oh and one last thing. Dark Angels are now not alone in being able to field Terminator only armies! SW's can field all terminator armies as one of their characters makes it possible to field T's as troops choices!"
Welcome Mr Thor and Mr Odin to 40k
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Oh good. More special characters to change your force. Fething wonderful. And rather than keeping up with the heavy symbolism they've just added Thor wholesale. Great.
And sucks to be a 13th Company player. All you Wulfen players come join us LatD, Ulthwe Strike Force and Speed Freak players at the bar! But drink heartily me lads, 'cause the Inquisition won't be far behind you...
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Post by: 1hadhq
I think it could have been expected if you listen to mr kelly.
Cant wait for the whining when we see the abilities and units.
But cheap GH sounds interesting. Could imagine some Movie-marines for the looks and some "other-marines" for the game.
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Post by: sonofruss
H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh good. More special characters to change your force. Fething wonderful. And rather than keeping up with the heavy symbolism they've just added Thor wholesale. Great.
And sucks to be a 13th Company player. All you Wulfen players come join us LatD, Ulthwe Strike Force and Speed Freak players at the bar! But drink heartily me lads, 'cause the Inquisition won't be far behind you...
Um have you read the ork codex H.B.M.C.
I still have my Speed Freak army the only thing I lost was the fightabomma raid. 
wohoo on a terminator army time to save some money for termies  assault cannons in every hand and heavy flamers in every garage.
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Post by: Scottywan82
I'm excited about the Grey Hunters, and interested to see these new Special Characters.
Two special weapons is great, but means I need more special weapons. Need to find out the minimum size of a GH squad. If it has gone down to five, all the better.
Do squads still get power weapons and fists? How many?
I realize there are no answers yet, just saying what I'd like to know.
Not thrilled with expensive Terminators.
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Post by: whitedragon
Those rumors make it sound like Space Wolves will be the new Space Marines.
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Post by: Alpharius
H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh good. More special characters to change your force. Fething wonderful. And rather than keeping up with the heavy symbolism they've just added Thor wholesale. Great.
I don't see this trend ever going away, unfortunately...
H.B.M.C. wrote:And sucks to be a 13th Company player. All you Wulfen players come join us LatD, Ulthwe Strike Force and Speed Freak players at the bar! But drink heartily me lads, 'cause the Inquisition won't be far behind you...
So sad, so true...
Well, it looks as if we'll be seeing a lot of "Counts As" Space Wolf armies soon!
Should make some happy...
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I'm happy that they're getting a new Codex, I'm happy that a stack of cool new models are coming out (though would it kill GW to hype their releases with actual fething previews?), and overall I think a rejuvenated Wolves is good for 40K as a whole. But I just wish the current design ethos would feth off quick smart. This incessant need for Special Characters is just so pathetic - whatever happened to people playing their own armies? Where did that aspect of the hobby go? Now we're supposed to play armies that always contain named personalities within the 40K fluff? And don't BAWWW back at me with 'Counts As' 'cause that doesn't cut it I'm afraid. This is why I still find the ability to take a Captain on a Bike and take Bikes as Troops in the Marine Codex so surprising. (not that anyone does it mind you - Vulkan power build all the way - but it is surprising to see it there. I'd do an army like that if only to go to all the Raven Wing players " Haha! I don't have to bring a special character to play my all-Bike army", but then I realise I'd be making fun of Dark Angel players, and they've got it bad enough already without having me on their case over something that's not their fault. Oh well.
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Post by: Kaotik
The bulk of those rumors are nice enough that I will ignore the fact that it says AV13 on Bjorn when the rumor has been 14 for months now. I have to agree with what a couple of you said though, and I highly doubt I will be the only Wolves player at my FLGS after October if those hold true.
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Post by: CatPeeler
The wolf stuff didn't really interest or faze me until I saw that last bit about fielding an all-terminator army.
A deathwing style army is one of the few marine lists I'd actually consider playing, and having another codex to pick from for a 'counts-as' list just doubled my options.
I would have rather had a "captain in terminator armor + terminator retinue lets you take termies as troop choices" rule in the 'nilla codex, though...
I guess what I'm saying is, "hooray for terminators!"
*cracks open bottle of Thunderbird, chugs, falls over*
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Post by: Grimhowl
I too would like to see the special character dependence fall away. I blame warmachine for breaking open that door though.
I'm wondering if the "special weapons" per squad includes things like power weapons/power fists. It would be an overall reduction per squad in what's currently allowed, but still leave them with potentially more than a regular space marine tac squad, especially if Wolf Guard can still be attached to every unit.
I'm still concerned about the point costs, I expect that you will pay a hefty price for all these abilities.
I'm okay with them basically porting Thor into the list as a character, I might not ever use him but a space wolf throwing a thunder hammer has a certain appeal, especially if the model is nice. Likely as not he'll be direct order only when he comes out and probably a second wave release.
The all terminator army is temptation I don't need if it's true, been tempted by deathwing armies in the past... If they retain the Space Wolves dislike of teleportation, one would have to drop the terminators in pods which would add a points sink to an already low model count army if you want it to deep strike.
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Post by: wyomingfox
"A wolf guard with Thunder hammer and Storm Shield weighs in at just under seventy"
...Huh?!? Great, they got more expensive. Countercharge and acute senses are just the replacement for combat tactics. So they better get something for that extra 30 points...something that is worth 30 points.
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Post by: dietrich
All the rumors are that Wolf Guard in TDA are pretty point-expensive. I think the one rumor was that WG in TDA with twin Claws was around 70 points, but got like 6 attacks on the charge. The thinking was that the WG probably got one more attack (so, 3 base) +1 two CCWs, +1 for charge, with the last attack maybe coming from a Character or Banner type bonus. Maybe WG get 2 attacks on the charge, or are a mind-boggling 4 base attacks (which, I just can't see happening, since then Ragnar would certainly have like 6 or 7 base).
If a full GH unit comes with a couple special weapons for 'free', I can't see the unit being less than 180 points. Automatically Appended Next Post: Who knows, maybe WG all get Runic Charms for free. Well, a Wolf player can dream.
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Post by: skrulnik
Warmachine isn't the only one to use named characters. Void did it as well.
What's the big deal about a named character anyway? He is an Archetype that allows a certain build.
Do you argue with your opponent over who is the real Vulkan if you face each other?
I think they are a great method of balancing good army wide abilities with a penalty, dependance on a single figure.
They would be better if GW actually balanced them, but the concept is good.
I am reallly not likeing the idea of a SW riding a wolf while wearing dead wolves, and a unit is even worse.
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Post by: jmurph
Yeah, but WM made a much bigger impact than Void and seems to be the clear inspiration for GW's trend. But counts as works fine. My counts as Vulkan is the UM Master of the Armoury, so it not surprising that his troops are fitted with the finest weaponry and plenty of Promethium. ;-)
wyomingfox: part of that cost is TDA. I am guessing the rest is for extra attacks. Still, its what +30 over a codex assault terminator? And LCs is probably 5 attacks (sans character) v. codex 4. Dunno if that is a good deal...
150 seems way to cheap for 10 GHs and 2 special weapons. I am guessing more like 170-180.
And if the have Colter/BP/CCW, they don't need True Grit.
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Post by: warboss
sonofruss wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh good. More special characters to change your force. Fething wonderful. And rather than keeping up with the heavy symbolism they've just added Thor wholesale. Great.
And sucks to be a 13th Company player. All you Wulfen players come join us LatD, Ulthwe Strike Force and Speed Freak players at the bar! But drink heartily me lads, 'cause the Inquisition won't be far behind you...
Um have you read the ork codex H.B.M.C.
I still have my Speed Freak army the only thing I lost was the fightabomma raid.
wohoo on a terminator army time to save some money for termies assault cannons in every hand and heavy flamers in every garage.
really, because my nonbike speed freak army was made useless. having units of 10 guys with 1 wound each and following the standard ork morale rules (instead of the special speed freak ones) hobbled any chance of my force being effective. they were already pretty bad in annilation mission but awesome in mission objective type games. oh well... they're sold so i shouldn't talk about that old spilled milk.. why didn't i include bikes? because when i made the army 8+ years ago, the old gorkamorka bikes were fuggly!
as for the wolves, if those rumors are true then it will continue the time honored tradition of superpowering the wolves and then having the rest of the 40k universe playing catch up for 5 years! tally ho!!
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Post by: Grimhowl
150 pts does seem cheap for 10 Grey Hunters with 2 specials but maybe that's how they've set the list up. Cheap troops with really expensive elites, characters, etc.
With the codex so near it's really frustrating that we have so little concrete information to go on. Even general sales peak from GW like "you'll love what we've done with Long Fangs", "expect troops to be cheaper", and "wolf guard will be awesome" would be welcome at this point even if they were horribly wrong.
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Post by: Mastiff
Right now the Codex requires an HQ unit for every 750pts in play. Any thoughts if that will continue?
With the increase in character costs, it may explain cheaper GH units.
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Post by: Railguns
1hadhq wrote:
Wolf Guard are deceptive, they start off at a little over thirty points but they get very expensive very quickly. A wolf guard with Thunder hammer and Storm Shield weighs in at just under seventy!
Isn't this the whole reason nobody uses Vanguard?
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Post by: porkuslime
At 70.. does that include Terminator Armour? I may be able to see that.. if it included the weaponry..
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Post by: Timmah
1hadhq wrote:Seen this at the B&C:
These were posted by Zarahemna on Librarium Online.
How much is a regular Space Wolf? xx points? Oh and you get a special weapon for free. Oh, and if you take ten you get a second special weapon for free... Ten men, and two special weapons for 150 points? Sounds good eh?
Kit? Oh yeah, every space wolf carries a chainsword, bolt pistol and boltgun. Extra attacks, I think so. You can kiss good bye to true grit though.
Idk about you, but I personally am looking forward to all the regular space marines armies that will soon be "counts as" space wolf armies.
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Post by: number9dream
skrulnik wrote:Warmachine isn't the only one to use named characters. Void did it as well. What's the big deal about a named character anyway? He is an Archetype that allows a certain build. Do you argue with your opponent over who is the real Vulkan if you face each other? I think they are a great method of balancing good army wide abilities with a penalty, dependance on a single figure. They would be better if GW actually balanced them, but the concept is good. I am reallly not likeing the idea of a SW riding a wolf while wearing dead wolves, and a unit is even worse.
I don't have a problem with the special characters, but I really wouldn't mind an alternate system where you pay a base cost, then add traits for X points. Like so: Warboss - 40 pts Statline Ws 5, Bs 2, S5, T5 W3, I3, A4 LD9 Traits: Evil Sun Y pts - bikes are scoring, maybe re-introduce the old "fall back to your ride" thing. Goff X pts - +1 WS, +1A, +1I can take one unit of Nobz as troop. Deathskull Z pts - All infantry can take looted wagons as transports. Bad Moon Y - More special weapon options, more kombi-weapon stuff. Maybe BS increase? Something with flashgitz maybe (let one mob be taken as a retinue for the boss maybe). Snakebite X - Uhm, I'm a bit stumped -_- Some bonus to gretchin, some toughness bonus maybe (maybe like Mark of Nurgle, +1T) Blood Axe Z - Kommandos are scoring/taken as troops. Maybe steal Snikrot's Ambush ability.
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Post by: Sirius42
Haha, nice idea but they made a massive hash of trait systems before by making 'no brainer' traits, as well as some 'not with a barge pole.' traits. As it is i'm going to do a wolves army i think as i've never done a marine army from a codex in colours from said codex (closest i've got is a black bone and red count as templar army) so bring on the grey. (although I may do them in pre-heresy codex grey rather than powder blue space wolf grey)
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Post by: number9dream
Isn't it sort of the same "mess" they made with the Marine characters, where almost everyone takes Vulkan  ?
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Post by: wyomingfox
Are you implying that some SM players don't take Vulcan ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
porkuslime wrote:At 70.. does that include Terminator Armour? I may be able to see that.. if it included the weaponry..
At 42 pts don't SM terminators get TDA, TH and SS? I just don't see 70 pt WG terminators as being very viable. Still, I am smelling Shennanigans. Does anyone know the OPs (Zarahemna) credentials as a reliable rumor mill?
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Post by: 1hadhq
Those may not field him =>    
From a "how much did the author of the codex enjoy his concept" approach, i may assume were looking at
a herohammer army.
Who could be the "vulcan" of the SW ?
Does anyone know the OPs credentials as a reliable rumor mill?
Never been on librarium online myself.
The possibility of expensive TDA models isnt that far fetched.
IMO mr kelly was exactly insisting we wouldnt get characters or wolfguard for cheap ( heard it at the fail of a GD, i was ).
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Post by: wyomingfox
My bet is on Ragnar
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Post by: A-P
1hadhq wrote:Who could be the "vulcan" of the SW ?
Apparently they will get their version of the Norse god Thor. You know, the guy that smites giants and other monsters by throwing his mighty hammer  .
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Post by: Sirius42
Also, We get a lot of Lysander here as opposed to vulkan.
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Post by: Lorek
I'm not biting at all for 30+ points for Grey Hunters. Not even Thousand Sons are that expensive, and with two wounds each, they have plenty...
Oh, sorry. Still, when you cost that much more than a Plague Marine, but won't have the same durability, I'm simply not believing it.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Iorek wrote:I'm not biting at all for 30+ points for Grey Hunters. Not even Thousand Sons are that expensive, and with two wounds each, they have plenty...
Oh, sorry. Still, when you cost that much more than a Plague Marine, but won't have the same durability, I'm simply not believing it.
I think the 30+ points were an assumption of the wolfguards cost.
How much is a regular Space Wolf? xx points? Oh and you get a special weapon for free. Oh, and if you take ten you get a second special weapon for free... Ten men, and two special weapons for 150 points? Sounds good eh?
This part of the rumor may hint on very cost effective troop chioces. SW 150 vs SM 170 
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Post by: Sirius42
Could be as an offset to very expensive characters?
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Post by: dietrich
30 points is the rumor for Wolfguard, which suggests they're staying the same as Vet Sgts, and I'm fine with that.
The 65-70 point terminators, I'm having a hard time believing, but I guess it's possible. Isn't that like Obliterator cost though? I don't see them being as good as Oblits, but anything's possible. Maybe they get a second wound as termies, because any model with 2 wounds has a lot going for it.......
Now, if you could upgrade a Grey Hunter to a Wolf Guard Pack Leader and equip them with terminator armor and twin lightning claws (or TH/SS), that could be approaching 70 pts and wouldn't be totally unreasonable (although, it would still be very expensive). 30 pts vet sgt +30 pts twin claws +5-10 pts for TDA.
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Post by: 1hadhq
IIRC, mr p.kelly said ( at a GD, im trying to forget ) you could equip your wolfguard individually and attach them ( 1 per unit ) to another SW squad. His example were long fangs, so grey hunters wont be a problem IMO.
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Post by: His Master's Voice
It seems you can have Wolfen attached to your squad
Warseer wrote:Here is more from Never-mind on B&C.
(guess from Lord Ragnarok)
QUOTE
Only thing I can think of is a wulfen WG, but then it is said wulfen are not in the dex. Perhaps "not in the dex" means not as a unit but possibility of upgrades in the pack. The wulfen leader would grant them higher bs, reroll, hit on 3..etc...?
(answer from never-mind)
Lord Ragnarok,
you are a winer biggrin.gif
but you can have both, WG pack leader and a wulfen msn-wink.gif
regards
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Post by: Alpharius
I think people have heard the "they may rock the tabletop, but don't worry, Wolves are going to cost a lot of points!" rumor and run with it.
At those points costs, if they turn out to be true, well, expect this Codex to bomb.
(The US definition, not the UK one.)
(I think.)
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Post by: carmachu
1hadhq wrote:Seen this at the B&C:
[i]These were posted by Zarahemna on Librarium Online.
"My brothers Njal the storm caller has granted me this vision so that you too may know the terrible might of the Space Wolves and howl as their heavy tread draws closer!
I know not of the new range of miniature representations of the sons of Russ, but I have seen the awesomeness of their almighty codex. Gather round now and listen!
*lots of cool stuff*
Well, I now know what codex I'm going to use for my Iron Warriors chaos army.... Automatically Appended Next Post: H.B.M.C. wrote:
But I just wish the current design ethos would feth off quick smart. This incessant need for Special Characters is just so pathetic - whatever happened to people playing their own armies? Where did that aspect of the hobby go? Now we're supposed to play armies that always contain named personalities within the 40K fluff?
Thats the one thing I really hate about the current GW trend: relianace on special characters. Its annoying as hell.
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Post by: Railguns
The 70 point one wound t4 models trend is really worrying me. These guys are going to pay a premium just for the ability to pay extra points to take expensive (and probably, no likely overpriced) weapons, and are going to be no harder to kill than any other army's MEQs.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Yeah, now imagine if you were paying just as much points, but only being T3...
... like an Eldar HQ.
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Post by: Archonate
The 70 point one wound t4 models trend is really worrying me. These guys are going to pay a premium just for the ability to pay extra points to take expensive (and probably, no likely overpriced) weapons, and are going to be no harder to kill than any other army's MEQs.
Isn't that how GKs are now?
If you want cheaper units, you'll have to settle for them being powered down quite a bit.
I think it would be better if these USRs they have were options that you could pay points for if you want them. Otherwise you're paying extra points for abilities that you'll potentially never use.
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Post by: wyomingfox
GK terminators are 46 pts each...not 70pts...and you get Aegis Armour!
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Post by: Railguns
Eldar have other things going for them. I know, they were my first army. But for Space Marines these guys are going to be 70 point models that have to make it into contact with the enemy and really throw their weight around to justify the expense. I'm not really convinced that making a model that is simply a beatstick cost so much for such a small amount of "durability".
Edit:I hated how my drat Banshee Exarch was 70 points just to be "proficient" at killing a couple of guys a turn if they lived to see combat.
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Post by: Alpharius
And with 5th edition's nerfing of close combat, paying a lot of points for close combat monsters isn't all that great...
Unless Wolves get some fancy 4th edition-esque throwback special rule. Call it "impetuous" or "ferocious" or some such.
I don't think they are, mind you!
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Post by: His Master's Voice
WG can be expensive, so what? 15 poins, ATSKNF, Acute Senses, Counter Charge, BP, CCW, Bolter Marines with two free special weapons should make up for that, right?
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Post by: Mahu
I could have sworn that the current rumor for Wolf Guard was a base 2 wounds each.
That's the only think I can think that would justify a 300+ point terminator squad that regular marines can field for 200.
A Thunderhammer Storm Shield Terminator in the current dex is 50.
My wish listing is that Wolf Guard will be like Ork Nobz. 2 Wounds a piece and the ability to be all equiped differently. Join them with a Wolf Priest and then they get Feel No Pain. I would pay 500+ points for that unit in a Land Raider.
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Post by: whitedragon
Alpharius wrote:And with 5th edition's nerfing of close combat, paying a lot of points for close combat monsters isn't all that great...
Close combat is still pretty darn dangerous in 5th edition. What with multi-charges and combat res, you can really sweep alot of units off the table in one go. The difference is now that you have to make sure you get your CC monster unit stuck in against something worth fighting, rather than mindless munching scrubs as you can't "consolidate" to a fresh combat anymore.
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Post by: Railguns
But if we're talking about a small elite force that is always out numbered, then you , by the very nature of the army, are going to be hard pressed to find any possible multi assaults. Just feed them something sacrificial that they can't really ignore, like driving a vet squad with plasma or melta in a chimera up to them, and watch. Chances are either they'll get wiped becuase they are still MEq's but cost so much that they'll be massively outnumbered, or they smash the bait squad because they didn't want the bait mauling them and get wiped by the rest of the enemy force in turn.
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Post by: Alpharius
Railguns wrote:But if we're talking about a small elite force that is always out numbered, then you , by the very nature of the army, are going to be hard pressed to find any possible multi assaults. Just feed them something sacrificial that they can't really ignore, like driving a vet squad with plasma or melta in a chimera up to them, and watch. Chances are either they'll get wiped becuase they are still MEq's but cost so much that they'll be massively outnumbered, or they smash the bait squad because they didn't want the bait mauling them and get wiped by the rest of the enemy force in turn.
Exactly.
And I'm not sure that I have enough confidence in GW to get this "balance" right...
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Post by: dietrich
Alpharius wrote:And I'm not sure that I have enough confidence in GW to get this "balance" right...
Ma-wah-ha-ha! GW. "Balance". same sentence. Now, that's funny. Automatically Appended Next Post: And slightly OT. I hope the Space Wolf SC's don't do a lot to modify the basic army archetype. I have less of a problem with SCs changing the FOC or abilities of an army, if it's a basic armylist trying to account for a lot of variance (like SM and IG, even Orks to a degree). But, SWs are getting their own freakin' codex! If they can't get the basic rules for SWs to reflect their archetype, without the use of any special characters, what's the point of giving them their own codex?
It'd be like giving Salamanders their own codex, and they still have Combat Tactics. But, they add Vulkan to the codex and he still replaces Combat Tactics with the twin-linked weaponry. What's the point of the codex? Just get rid of Combat Tactics, and only let units buy twin-linked flamers and meltas, and MC TH's.
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Post by: Archonate
That's one reason why many think that putting all SM chapters in one codex makes perfect sense...
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Post by: Alpharius
Archonate wrote:That's one reason why many think that putting all SM chapters in one codex makes perfect sense...
Many = Archonate, who certainly chimes in on any Chapter Specific threads with posts of that leaning!
Space Wolves were the only chapter (I think) that definitely said "No, I don't think so!" to Roboute and his Codex, so, if any "deserve" their own Codex, I think the Wolves do!
Plus, it can serve as a basis for anyone who wants a non-codex Chapter!
Right?
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Post by: Mahu
If anything, Black Templars and Space Wolves are the two divergent chapters enough that they are almost impossible to integrate into a singular Codex Space Marines.
Personally, I would love to see Blood Angels and Dark Angels given the old "Angels of Death" treatment.
Space Wolves are probably the most unique chapter. They are going to be crazy good, but will probably be outnumbered all the time to compensate. Grey Hunters will be cheap, but that may not be counting a 50 point Wolf Guard upgrade option. It also may not count an upgrade charge for Melta or Plasma.
300 - 400 point Terminator sqauds should be troop choices because you would rarely want to field them otherwise. When I originally played wolves in 3rd edition, I wouldn't touch Terminators with a ten foot pole because they where always so overpriced. If they will continue to be expensive, they better be 2 wounds or have "hero" stats like WS 5 , BS 5, Ld 10 and come with some additional benefits.
I am extremely frustrated that we are almost a month away from release and we still have no concrete rumors.
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Post by: Archonate
Alpharius wrote:Archonate wrote:That's one reason why many think that putting all SM chapters in one codex makes perfect sense...
Many = Archonate, who certainly chimes in on any Chapter Specific threads with posts of that leaning!
Now you must understand, I don't do it out of SM hate. There are a several chapters who's special rules are so similar that the differences could be explained on a codex page between army lists. Compiling such chapters would keep a good number of players from having to wait so long for their codex.
From the point of view of somebody who plays against SMs almost exclusively, (me) the only difference between SM chapters is how the army thrashes around as it dies. Most of the time I don't even ask what chapter I'm fighting, cause it makes no difference in how I play. SMs all die the same. SWs are no exception. (though I must admit, this new codex is making them look a little more extraordinary. )
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Post by: Railguns
That may just be because GW hasn't done a good enough job of differentiating the chapters, rather than the chapters not deserving their own book....
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Post by: Stygian Mole
WGBG 25
TH&SS 25
TDA 5
WTN 10
WP 3
WTT 1
=69pts
Works for me
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Oh goody, space wolves are going to be mary sue wish fulfillment super-space marines for no reason other than poor design philosophy. They're armies are going to be tiny (despite having a much larger than normal chapter size) and all of their special characters are going to be 250+ point supermen for no reason other than to avoid the shrill cry of the fanboy.
Good goody gumdrops.
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Post by: Da Boss
Heh. I remember thinking "ShumaGorath is going to be really annoyed about this" when I first read the rumours, but I wasn't sure if you posted anymore.
I agree, it's pretty annoying/typical. Mary Sue Marines. I think I've found a new way to needle the Wolf players around . I'm not opposed to a Movie Marine book, really. But it would have to be Space Wolves, wouldn't it?
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Post by: generalgrog
H.B.M.C. wrote:And sucks to be a 13th Company player. All you Wulfen players come join us LatD, Ulthwe Strike Force and Speed Freak players at the bar! But drink heartily me lads, 'cause the Inquisition won't be far behind you...
The 13th company wulfen are the only real army you can't play anymore. Except for the webway portals, you can still use all of the models from an Ulthwe strike force, speed freaks the same thing (except fightabomba), LatD are guard or chaos however you built them originally or both.
GG
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Post by: Brother SRM
ShumaGorath wrote:Oh goody, space wolves are going to be mary sue wish fulfillment super-space marines for no reason other than poor design philosophy. They're armies are going to be tiny (despite having a much larger than normal chapter size) and all of their special characters are going to be 250+ point supermen for no reason other than to avoid the shrill cry of the fanboy.
Good goody gumdrops.
Weren't you banned for crapping on threads like this with frightening regularity?
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Post by: Cruentus
Archonate wrote:That's one reason why many think that putting all SM chapters in one codex makes perfect sense...
But we all know that would never work, because GW needs to make money, and players need their special rules to be...well...special.
Of course, what we get is SM players (and some chaos players) playing "counts as whatever the latest best codex is" anyway, so really, it is like there is only one SM codex, it just happens to be the newest one, not the one with all the chapters in it. After all, its really not about the color of the marines anymore, but their special rules.
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Post by: Demogerg
Archonate wrote:
Now you must understand, I don't do it out of SM hate. There are a several chapters who's special rules are so similar that the differences could be explained on a codex page between army lists. Compiling such chapters would keep a good number of players from having to wait so long for their codex.
From the point of view of somebody who plays against SMs almost exclusively, (me) the only difference between SM chapters is how the army thrashes around as it dies. Most of the time I don't even ask what chapter I'm fighting, cause it makes no difference in how I play. SMs all die the same. SWs are no exception. (though I must admit, this new codex is making them look a little more extraordinary. )
Then the SW players in your area must be doin' it wrong.
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Post by: Black Blow Fly
Or you are delusional... it can happen when people don't eat for days on end.
G
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Post by: number9dream
Cruentus wrote:Archonate wrote:That's one reason why many think that putting all SM chapters in one codex makes perfect sense...
But we all know that would never work, because GW needs to make money, and players need their special rules to be...well...special.
Of course, what we get is SM players (and some chaos players) playing "counts as whatever the latest best codex is" anyway, so really, it is like there is only one SM codex, it just happens to be the newest one, not the one with all the chapters in it. After all, its really not about the color of the marines anymore, but their special rules.
They can still have special rules, and they can still release new models for each of the chapters, no?
It does remove the "omg new rules"-incentive tho, so I understand why they wouldn't do it.
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Post by: warboss
Stygian Mole wrote:WGBG 25
TH&SS 25
TDA 5
WTN 10
WP 3
WTT 1
=69pts
Works for me
CYPWTOC?*
*could you please write that out completely?
i've been playing 40k for 10 years and i can only make out half of your acronyms. not everyone has the same abbreviations for the same words across the planet.
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Post by: Jayden63
warboss wrote:Stygian Mole wrote:WGBG 25
TH&SS 25
TDA 5
WTN 10
WP 3
WTT 1
=69pts
Works for me
CYPWTOC?*
*could you please write that out completely?
i've been playing 40k for 10 years and i can only make out half of your acronyms. not everyone has the same abbreviations for the same words across the planet.
Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Tactical Dreadnaught Armor
No idea.
Guessing: Wolf Pelt (plus 1 attack when counter charging)
Guessing: Wolf Tail Talisman (can't remember what it does)
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Post by: Mastiff
Wolf Tooth Necklace. (Hits in melee on 3+)
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Post by: warboss
ah. thanks, the last three were totally unknown to me.
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Post by: Scottywan82
Jayden63 wrote:warboss wrote:Stygian Mole wrote:WGBG 25
TH&SS 25
TDA 5
WTN 10
WP 3
WTT 1
=69pts
Works for me
CYPWTOC?*
*could you please write that out completely?
i've been playing 40k for 10 years and i can only make out half of your acronyms. not everyone has the same abbreviations for the same words across the planet.
Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield
Tactical Dreadnaught Armor
No idea.
Guessing: Wolf Pelt (plus 1 attack when counter charging)
Guessing: Wolf Tail Talisman (can't remember what it does)
Actually it's pretty easy if you play space wolves. He was trying to determine the cost of a generic terminator
Wolf Guard Bodyguard (not battle leader)
Thunder Hammer Storm Shield
Tactical Dreadnought Armor
Wolf Tooth Necklace
Wolf Pelt
Wolf Tail Talisman
All for about the 70 points we've been quoted. They'd be pretty BA though. (that means bad ass)
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Post by: ShumaGorath
Brother SRM wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:Oh goody, space wolves are going to be mary sue wish fulfillment super-space marines for no reason other than poor design philosophy. They're armies are going to be tiny (despite having a much larger than normal chapter size) and all of their special characters are going to be 250+ point supermen for no reason other than to avoid the shrill cry of the fanboy.
Good goody gumdrops.
Weren't you banned for crapping on threads like this with frightening regularity?
No, I was banned for insulting people constantly in the off topic forum. No one banned me for crapping on threads like this because people know I speak the truth.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Mehh...I stopped going to the off-topic forum once I realized it was Dogma's bully pulpit for evangelizing the Dakka community with his own ironic and dogmatic rhetoric. Automatically Appended Next Post: Mahu wrote: A Thunderhammer Storm Shield Terminator in the current dex is 50.
Stygian Mole wrote:WGBG 25
TH&SS 25
TDA 5
WTN 10
WP 3
WTT 1
=69pts
Works for me
How so SM get a TH and SS Terminator for 50 pts if Mahu is correct (that seams high to me...I thought it was more like 42 pts?). For SW you are paying 55 pts? Why more?
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Post by: Railguns
Because they are the small elite army, even more than normal marines. It's the Design Philosophy tax.
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Post by: dienekes96
ShumaGorath wrote:No, I was banned for insulting people constantly in the off topic forum. No one banned me for crapping on threads like this because people know I speak the truth.
The truth?!?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
What is "the truth" about a game designed around one inch tall toys using metamyths from every source the creators could lay their hands on?
Histrionics and self-martyring aside, I do appreciate your admission that you are simply a threadcrapper. With delusions of grandeur, yes, but a threadcrapping troll nonetheless. Awesome.
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Post by: Defiler
DakkaDakka, and plastic soldiers are in fact serious business.
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Post by: Mahu
How so SM get a TH and SS Terminator for 50 pts if Mahu is correct (that seams high to me...I thought it was more like 42 pts?). For SW you are paying 55 pts? Why more?
To clarify. A Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminator is 40 points in a Codex Space Marine Army. A Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminator is 50 points in the current Space Wolves Army. And there is no decipherable difference currently which is why Terminators are rarely fielded in Space Wolf Armies currently.
Now I don't mind if Terminators are still expensive, they just need to justify that cost. 70 point Terminators (as rumored) need to be the "hero" level models that cost implies. A Space Marine Captain in Terminator Armor with Thunder Hammer is 170 points. That's a WS 6. BS 5, At 3, 3 Wound, Ld 10 character. I don't think it would so terrible to have a unit with WS 5, BS 4, At 2, 2 Wound, Ld 9, 400 point Terminator Squad?
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Post by: ShumaGorath
dienekes96 wrote:ShumaGorath wrote:No, I was banned for insulting people constantly in the off topic forum. No one banned me for crapping on threads like this because people know I speak the truth.
The truth?!?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
What is "the truth" about a game designed around one inch tall toys using metamyths from every source the creators could lay their hands on?
Histrionics and self-martyring aside, I do appreciate your admission that you are simply a threadcrapper. With delusions of grandeur, yes, but a threadcrapping troll nonetheless. Awesome.
At least when I post, I reference the topic at hand, rather than build near 800 posts off of longwinded tear downs of others.
DakkaDakka, and plastic soldiers are in fact serious business.
Its a forum dedicated to tiny plastic men. It's likely that most participants will take the tiny plastic men as srius bsns.
(back to the topic at hand)
Now I don't mind if Terminators are still expensive, they just need to justify that cost. 70 point Terminators (as rumored) need to be the "hero" level models that cost implies.
Why are space wolf terminators better than any other armies though? What justifies the increased stats and in that sense the cost? They aren't stronger, they don't shoot better, and they don't have better equipment. All terminators are veterans of a thousand battles, forged in the heat of the hardest conflicts over centuries gifted with ancient relics of armor and weaponry that often times and in many armies date back to the great crusade.
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Post by: sonofruss
Because if you are paying 70pts for a terminator you should get a 70pt terminator rather than a 40pt terminator with some extra bling.
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Post by: ShumaGorath
sonofruss wrote:Because if you are paying 70pts for a terminator you should get a 70pt terminator rather than a 40pt terminator with some extra bling.
But shouldn't they just be the same price as the rest of the terminators, with some variant rules, alternate item choices, and drawbacks to make up for the variant rule extras? Like would make sense? Considering they aren't all that much different/better?
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Post by: sonofruss
One the point cost is a drawback and a 6 attack lightning claw terminator is a boost from a 4 attack terminator but not a 30 point boost
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Post by: Sirius42
You could argue that space wolves are allowed to be that much better because they start thier training by kitting them all up in power armour and sending them off to fight, no years of sneaking around and infiltration training...., just straight in there with the fighting. Or because they are genetically wolfish, i'm sure that could help towards making you harder in a fight.
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Post by: Mastiff
Sirius42 wrote:You could argue that space wolves are allowed to be that much better because they start thier training by kitting them all up in power armour and sending them off to fight, no years of sneaking around and infiltration training...., just straight in there with the fighting. Or because they are genetically wolfish, i'm sure that could help towards making you harder in a fight.
Nope. It's the hangovers. They're just plain mean.
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Post by: Lowinor
Mahu wrote:To clarify. A Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminator is 40 points in a Codex Space Marine Army. A Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminator is 50 points in the current Space Wolves Army. And there is no decipherable difference currently which is why Terminators are rarely fielded in Space Wolf Armies currently.
Well, assault termies at least; current shooty SW terminators are still more expensive, but once you tack on the Runic Charm (reroll one failed armor save per game), and the ease in making each model unique, and the ability to take three Assault Cannons in a five-man squad (or take the Wolf Priest instead of the WGBL and, combined with the Runic Charms, become damn near invulnerable to small arms fire with a mere two ACs in a five man squad), they have their advantages. They're expensive, sure, but if kitted out right, they're not particularly a waste.
One of my favorite 40k games involved me dropping a squad of WG termies in the middle of a guard army, then getting focus fired by all 1500 points of it and not having a single one killed. To be fair the IG army wasn't terribly well optimized and I was lucky on the invulnerable saves, but I still ate close to 40 non- AP wounds without losing a model.
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Post by: wyomingfox
The waste is in the extra 10 points you pay for a WG Termie over a SM termie armed exactly the same. Not mentioning the fact that SW can't teleport.
You should pay points based on the effectiveness of the model. If two models have the same effectiveness then they should be priced similarily.
As for wolf pelts, necklaces, runic charms and assault cannons, SW pay alot of points to field those wargear options...they don't get them for free. So yes, they are effective, how ever you are paying for that effectiveness.
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Post by: Kaotik
Lowinor wrote:
Well, assault termies at least; current shooty SW terminators are still more expensive, but once you tack on the Runic Charm (reroll one failed armor save per game), and the ease in making each model unique, and the ability to take three Assault Cannons in a five-man squad (or take the Wolf Priest instead of the WGBL and, combined with the Runic Charms, become damn near invulnerable to small arms fire with a mere two ACs in a five man squad), they have their advantages. They're expensive, sure, but if kitted out right, they're not particularly a waste.
One of my favorite 40k games involved me dropping a squad of WG termies in the middle of a guard army, then getting focus fired by all 1500 points of it and not having a single one killed. To be fair the IG army wasn't terribly well optimized and I was lucky on the invulnerable saves, but I still ate close to 40 non-AP wounds without losing a model.
I took a similar unit to Ard Boyz prelims and semi's, and all but one game they were great. Had a WGBL w/ Assault cannon hitting on deuces and 2 Cyclone racks in the unit, Charms, and 4 wolves tied to the WGBL. I have tried both methods and 3x AC's has not measured up to the 4 krak/frag shots and one AC in my experience. Mainly due to the versatility in range and the 4x blast templates on a horde.
If GW intends on selling alot of the remolded terminators then I highly doubt they will be ringing in at around double a standard SM model. Most likely it is alittle bit of both speculations and the cost is lower than 70 with the stat bonuses to make up the difference (+1 atk, maybe +1ws).
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Post by: Mahu
ShumaGorath wrote:sonofruss wrote:Because if you are paying 70pts for a terminator you should get a 70pt terminator rather than a 40pt terminator with some extra bling.
But shouldn't they just be the same price as the rest of the terminators, with some variant rules, alternate item choices, and drawbacks to make up for the variant rule extras? Like would make sense? Considering they aren't all that much different/better?
This argument is not to necessarily agree with the need for "better" Space Wolf Terminators over other chapters, but the uniqueness of Space Wolves is their emphasis on personal glory and honor. Codex Chapters may create veterans of a thousand battles, but they are still solders in a strict ridged military system, they still follow a certain amount of rules when approaching Warfare, they all have similar line of training and advancement. It's rare for a codex chapter marines to, say, develop greater skills with blades and axes because it isn't part of their strict daily lives. Space Wolf marines can go off and spend a few years hunting kraken on Fenris for no other reason then personal glory, you obtain a certain set of skills when you do something like that, an experience that say a Ultramarines Veteran may not do.
My personal view of the Space Wolves has always been that they are the "Klingons" of 40k. They have a set of codes and honor, but they emphasis deeds and achievements. It one of the reasons why I think the Saga's that are rumored are such a cool idea for this army.
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Post by: jmurph
Mahu: I understand what you are saying, but the fluff tells that every chapter is the best. Remember in Codex Marines where it talks about the Feast of Blades and how the chapters send their champs and fight it out in melee? I would think that the Sable Swords (only chapter to have won twice. With the same guy.) who, apparently, spend all their time dueling and fighting and stuff would match a Space Wolf in close combat. Same thing for Black Templars (Emperor's Champion and all that). Oh, and let's not forget Blood Angels.
But the rules say grey marines are the best now, so what can you do?
I have both SWs and UMs, FWIW, and think that, from a design view, all SMs should be in one codex. Give all of 'em Bolter/BP/CCW and let the SCs and HQ change things up. So you get Furious Charge if you take the Red special character, Counter Charge if you take the grey one, Stubborn if you take the green or yellow one, Infiltrate if you take the black one, troop bikes if you take a bike one, troop jumps if you take the jump pack one retinue termies if you take a termie one, etc.
Most of the differences are really modeling and philosophy, not so much units in a small scale battle.
That being said, I will buy the SW Codex :-)
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Post by: Mahu
Well, the cat has been let out of the bag when it comes to certain chapters getting their own codexes, and unfortunately Space Marines sell, so it will always be a part of 40k.
They have decided that rules wise that Grey Marines will be the character heavy/numbers lite Space Marine army.
I can't complain, I play both Salamanders and Space Wolves so I win both ways.
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Post by: Archonate
jmurph wrote:I have both SWs and UMs, FWIW, and think that, from a design view, all SMs should be in one codex. Give all of 'em Bolter/BP/CCW and let the SCs and HQ change things up. So you get Furious Charge if you take the Red special character, Counter Charge if you take the grey one, Stubborn if you take the green or yellow one, Infiltrate if you take the black one, troop bikes if you take a bike one, troop jumps if you take the jump pack one retinue termies if you take a termie one, etc.
Most of the differences are really modeling and philosophy, not so much units in a small scale battle.
Thank you. It helps when a SM player backs me up on this. SMs really aren't very different from each other. And like you said, compiling them into one big codex works better from a design standpoint. GW would save development time and especially money (since they wouldn't have to print so many different books) for a product that will inevitably sell like crazy.
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Post by: dienekes96
I appreciate and understand that sentiment, but it is an irrelevant argument in 2009. They did not do that, and SW are second or third in line as oldest Codex (and unique that they require two books) depending on how you count releases. If you want to cogently make that argument, wait for 6th edition murmurs and howl about it then. It's too late now, and I want a new Wolf release. It skipped 4th completely, as did BA and DE.
Besides, the rubber meets the road with models. I wouldn't care if they WD'ed the SWs, as long as I got new model releases. Which is what drives this whole process.
Anyways, SMs will never be a single book, due to the sales. The rules similarities aren't relevant; the SALES similarities are. The rules being similar is actually a BONUS to the developer, because less rules work still yields a high selling product. That is a demonstrable fact, so it would really help the process if folks could get on board with that and move on.
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Post by: Archonate
dienekes96 wrote:I appreciate and understand that sentiment, but it is an irrelevant argument in 2009.
Completely agree. Nobody need take it personally when people speak of compiling SMs. I've said before that I'm excited for SW players because I can empathize with the thought of getting a new codex with fresh fluff and, best of all, new models. I can't wait to hear the first reports of how they play.
I mention it merely as hypothetical food for thought. I think that although:
less rules work still yields a high selling product.
putting SMs in one codex would allow zero rules work to yield a high selling product. If Codex: Space Marines contained everything SM players needed, GW would save on print costs + R&D of multiple codices while selling the same amount of product.
I have to admit, there is a small part of me that is tired of watching new SM codices hold up the line for everybody else. But I make an effort to be understanding of the fact that devotion to a specific SM chapter excites the same feelings as devotion of any xeno player to their respective army. I sincerely hope your new codex delivers, and turns out to be worth the wait.
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Post by: ubermosher
Archonate wrote:
If Codex: Space Marines contained everything SM players needed, GW would save on print costs + R&D of multiple codices while selling the same amount of product.
If there was a 1-to-1 relationship between customer and codex, where the rule is 1 customer buys only codex SW and another buys only codex SM, you might have a point. But, I for one play both SM and SW, and I know many others who have pretty much every codex, or at least every space marine codex. Granted, that's anecdotal, but my sense is GW's best scenario for increasing profit margin, at least for printed material, is through increased revenue over reducing cost of goods sold (especially where print costs are variable and dependent on print volume, and R&D is already sunk).
In other words, more best-selling codices are more gooder.
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Post by: Abadabadoobaddon
Archonate wrote:putting SMs in one codex would allow zero rules work to yield a high selling product. If Codex: Space Marines contained everything SM players needed, GW would save on print costs + R&D of multiple codices while selling the same amount of product.
The point of having multiple space marine codexes is to enable GW to do a big space marine release at least once every year rather than once every edition. Space marine codexes give them the most bang for their buck because all use the same existing line of space marine plastic kits (which are more profitable than metals) and as such they don't require very much investment. Afterall why should I go through the expense of updating an entire separate model line when I can just sell you the one I've already got over and over and over again year after year? Especially if the one I've already got has a higher profit margin due to its high proportion of plastic kits? If GW could get away with only releasing space marines they would. The other armies exist only to give space marines someone to fight.
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Post by: Shep
Archonate wrote:SMs really aren't very different from each other.
I think it is more accurate to say that SM weren't very different from each other.
We haven't seen this new space wolf codex. In all likelihood, GW is quite aware of how homogenous the space wolves, blood angels and dark angels were to standard space marines, and so they may have taken steps to make them much more unique in game balance. Divergent model counts, different special rule sets, new global special rules, etc.
They may have gone as far as to have the guy who writes all of the xenos codexes try his hand at space marines in order to inject some 'differentness'.
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Post by: Stygian Mole
The only issue I have, and I do see your point, is the amount of unique wargear and such that would have to find a place in the conjoined dex lest detail of equipment and rules and units and characters and background and...  suffer.
I mean, if all current seperated chapters were intered into the vanilla dex we'd have a 2nd rulebook wouldnt we?
I get how it would be best for those amongst you who play both vanilla and other legions and it is true that it creates impracticality in the dev system that slows new releases down for everyone else. just remember that patience is a useful trait. The Wolves have done it. The DE are STILL doing it for feths sake.
one last thing. the creation of an entirely separate book and background for an army creates, in my experience, a sense of pride in that force. you want them to do well in campaigns, hope they kick tail when new fluff is released. Yes you can develope this kind of attachment to a force anyway, I just think it makes it easier for some of the newer gamers. Its why I think what they (Mat Ward) did to Chaos was criminal. Granted their all heretics and deserve only the Emperors justice but its to see what was such a variable and vibrant force reduced to 2 winged daemon princes and 9 obs.
Thats all I got
Fire at will
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Post by: Mastiff
Stygian Mole wrote:
one last thing. the creation of an entirely separate book and background for an army creates, in my experience, a sense of pride in that force. you want them to do well in campaigns, hope they kick tail when new fluff is released. Yes you can develope this kind of attachment to a force anyway, I just think it makes it easier for some of the newer gamers.
Yep. I like associating with a single army book. I like that all the fluff and pretty pictures support a common theme. Whenever I lose touch with the creative side of the army, the Codex is a fantastic way to get back into the mood of hairy drunks with high-tech beatsticks and large-caliber weapons. I don't get that same evil grin when I look at the generic space marine codex. I think it's because Ultramarines look far too hygenic.
And I'm REALLY excited about having all of my rules in one book. I hate having two codexes to look through to check a point value, or to remember if I'm allowed to field a specific unit or not. I want my own self-contained codex, with everything of relevence in one place.
I definitely sympathize with anyone who feels their codex is getting held up by the release cycle though. I'd very much like to see the Dark Eldar get some real love and attention after all this time. They have an amazing concept, just abysmal models.
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Post by: Stygian Mole
Mastiff wrote: I'd very much like to see the Dark Eldar get some real love and attention after all this time. They have an amazing concept, just abysmal models.
Q.F.T.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Archonate wrote:SMs really aren't very different from each other.
Shep wrote:I think it is more accurate to say that SM weren't very different from each other.
Well, it depends what Edition we are talking about:
3rd Edition SW resembled SM in so much that CSM resembled SM. They were very differnet and played very differently as I have outlined previously ( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/240694.page#754035).
In 4rth Edition, SM got alot of the benefits/units that SW had exclusively, and this continued with the introduction of the 5th edition rule book. In otherwords, they made SM resemble SW. Plus, BT came out which shares several of the CC concepts of SW.
It is both mine and I believe Shep's hope that they again differentiate the SW codex significantly enough from SM that they are deserving of a stand alone codex.
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Post by: dienekes96
SW deserve a Codex simply for being a bitchin and RAD concept.
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Post by: wyomingfox
As the famous revolutionary, Patrick Henry, once said "Give me SW or I will give you death"
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Post by: Archonate
Stygian Mole wrote:
one last thing. the creation of an entirely separate book and background for an army creates, in my experience, a sense of pride in that force. you want them to do well in campaigns, hope they kick tail when new fluff is released. Yes you can develope this kind of attachment to a force anyway, I just think it makes it easier for some of the newer gamers.
Very true. This is actually pretty much what I meant when I said:
devotion to a specific SM chapter excites the same feelings as devotion of any xeno player to their respective army.
Nobody ever wants to feel like their army is some generic, plain old everyday cookie-cutter monotony. I know I certainly don't like feeling that way... (which is precisely why I don't play SMs. In fact it's one of several driving reasons that I play DE.) But just because that's the way I look at SMs, doesn't mean I can't sympathize which those who somehow think SMs are unique. Particularly SW players because to a degree, they understand my frustration of watching all the other armies get updated repeatedly. And have had to tolerate the sniveling demands for a rules update by people who's armies just got updated a couple years ago... And then see them get those updates soon after!!!
@wyomingfox and Shep:
Very good point. GW does seem to be putting increasing amounts of effort to differentiate the chapters... I still fight all SMs the same way which is probably why I, personally, don't see much difference. But by the looks of this new SW codex, I might finally get to use other tactics!
P.S. In your link ( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/240694.page#754035) jmurph, the guy being lambasted by Alpharius and dienekes96 as a SM hater... is actually a SM player. Kinda funny.
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Post by: dienekes96
I didn't lambast jmurph as a SM hater. The only person I directed any snide comments to was Shuma, and that was mostly based on earlier interactions in SW threads. I'll review and see.
Edit: Well, I did quote him and lambast his argument. So you are more correct than me. My bad. I was addressing the argument more than the poster, but that nuance is hardly obvious from my post.
I do stand by my point in that thread about SM not being nearly the army hog they are frequently portrayed as, especially the specialty chapters.
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Post by: Typeline
I remember this thread from a few pages ago... when we were talking about Space Wolf news and rumors.
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Post by: Railguns
Man, forget that. We're still having the argument over whether they should even exist or not. Well, they do exist, but some of us don't like it so wel'll keep having this conversation until either Space Wolves cease to exist or the haters will bury their head in the sand so deep they'll strike oil in China.
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Post by: Archonate
Nah, we need Space Wolves. They do stand apart from other chapters both visually and in their fluff... And they've been neglected for far too long. They are a little more 'spicy' than some of the others.
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Post by: smart_alex
SO I wonder if this means that IG will be able to take Space Wolf Allies.
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Post by: Brother SRM
smart_alex wrote:
SO I wonder if this means that IG will be able to take Space Wolf Allies.
I think it's a pretty safe bet that won't be happening.
Part of me thinks they're going to phase out the allies rules altogether with the upcoming Inquisition dexes. If Chaos Daemons can't ally with Chaos Marines, (which I feel is a terrible oversight) I don't see why Guard would be able to ally with Wolves.
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Post by: Wolfgang
Archonate wrote:Nah, we need Space Wolves. They do stand apart from other chapters both visually and in their fluff... And they've been neglected for far too long. They are a little more 'spicy' than some of the others.
Quoted for truth
I've always been a Space Wolf fan, there fluff is interesting to read and for me they are the best chapter out there and stand out more for me than the other chapters do, I think it's high time the Wolves had some light shone on them since most other chapters ahem..Ultramarines,Templars have hogged the limelight!
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Post by: RxGhost
I have always hated this army. I'm glad they're getting a new book because I have friends who seem to enjoy their hijinx, but if they squatted these guys tomorrow I wouldn't miss a thing.
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Post by: wyomingfox
Yeah, and if people would stop whining about SW, I wouldn't miss a thing. But mehh, your hatred gives me strength.
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Post by: warboss
Archonate wrote:Nah, we need Space Wolves. They do stand apart from other chapters both visually and in their fluff... And they've been neglected for far too long. They are a little more 'spicy' than some of the others.
yeah, and they go well with the other original ideas GW has had for 40k back in the 1980's. to recap, we've got space werewolves, space vampires, space elves, space dwarves *offed*, space chaos, space lizards *offed*, space halflings, space ogres, and space skeletons.
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Post by: Mastiff
wyomingfox wrote:Yeah, and if people would stop whining about SW, I wouldn't miss a thing. But mehh, your hatred gives me strength.
hehe
Automatically Appended Next Post: warboss wrote:Archonate wrote:Nah, we need Space Wolves. They do stand apart from other chapters both visually and in their fluff... And they've been neglected for far too long. They are a little more 'spicy' than some of the others.
yeah, and they go well with the other original ideas GW has had for 40k back in the 1980's. to recap, we've got space werewolves, space vampires, space elves, space dwarves *offed*, space chaos, space lizards *offed*, space halflings, space ogres, and space skeletons.
Space Lizards? Do you mean the Slann? I sort of remember them playing with the idea of Space Fomors as "old Ones", but I can't remember if they ever created models or not.
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Post by: sonofruss
warboss wrote:Archonate wrote:Nah, we need Space Wolves. They do stand apart from other chapters both visually and in their fluff... And they've been neglected for far too long. They are a little more 'spicy' than some of the others.
yeah, and they go well with the other original ideas GW has had for 40k back in the 1980's. to recap, we've got space werewolves, space vampires, space elves, space dwarves *offed*, space chaos, space lizards *offed*, space halflings, space ogres, and space skeletons.
You forgot space orks 
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Post by: warboss
sonofruss wrote:warboss wrote:Archonate wrote:Nah, we need Space Wolves. They do stand apart from other chapters both visually and in their fluff... And they've been neglected for far too long. They are a little more 'spicy' than some of the others.
yeah, and they go well with the other original ideas GW has had for 40k back in the 1980's. to recap, we've got space werewolves, space vampires, space elves, space dwarves *offed*, space chaos, space lizards *offed*, space halflings, space ogres, and space skeletons.
You forgot space orks
d'oh!!! 
@mastiff: yup, i meant the space slann in RT. i guess they turned into tau since their leaders now have the hoverwheelchairs the slann were famous for!
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Post by: Fateweaver
From Ravenous over on Warseer:
Space Wolves have ATSKNF, Acute Senses, and Counter attack
Bikers can take wolves instead and give you +1S, T, and A. Something about 50pts for 6 attacks with rending on the charge in there as well.
Bjorn if killed counts as an objective and makes all the space wolves fearless.
Lone wolves if ARENT killed give up a kill point
Berzerk charge(+2 attacks on charge) is there for ALL blood claw stuff.
Some sagas change the objectives in the game in some cases, some are army wide some are individual based (weird I know, screwing with objectives?)
And thats all I got off the top of my head. Oh and they definietely have the sprues in.
EDIT:
Right!
Wolf Guard start at 18pts with power armour and upgrade from there.
There is banner (banner of the wolf I think it was called) and when used lets you reroll all "to hit" rolls in combat for the entire army for one turn.
Apparently some stores have the "black boxes" in but are under order to not open them until next week.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Bikers can take wolves instead and give you +1S, T, and A. Something about 50pts for 6 attacks with rending on the charge in there as well.
Out and out the dumbest thing in 40K for a long time - and that's counting the Daemon Codex, the Chaos Codex, RObin Cruddace and Jervis. Men on horses in a Guard army I can handle. Marines on Wolves?
Come on! That's just... uhh...
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Post by: ph34r
H.B.M.C. wrote:Come on! That's just... uhh...
The word you are looking for is awesome.
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Post by: Fateweaver
H.B.M.C. wrote:Bikers can take wolves instead and give you +1S, T, and A. Something about 50pts for 6 attacks with rending on the charge in there as well.
Out and out the dumbest thing in 40K for a long time - and that's counting the Daemon Codex, the Chaos Codex, RObin Cruddace and Jervis. Men on horses in a Guard army I can handle. Marines on Wolves?
Come on! That's just... uhh...
I would disagree on the Daemon codex. I enjoy it and it's a fun army. Is the reason people spit so much vile at it is that CSM daemons (who really should take a back seat to CSM's) are worse than their CD counterparts?
Anyway, don't shoot the messenger. I just bring updates.
SW's are sort of....feral. I don't see why it's no big deal for something as feral as an ork to ride a giant boar but a feral SM, who from the fluff is not much more civilised than an ork, cannot ride a giant wolf?
Maybe it's a unit that will suck so bad that even if people consider them cool nobody will convert the models, or maybe they'll be that good that people will want to.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Fateweaver wrote:Bikers can take wolves instead and give you +1S, T, and A. Something about 50pts for 6 attacks with rending on the charge in there as well.
Are these going to be puny O&G cavalry-sized wolves, Chaos Juggernaut-sized wolves, or Lizardmen Stegadon-sized wolves?
If they are going to be huge, that would be cool. I could use them.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Fateweaver wrote:I would disagree on the Daemon codex. I enjoy it and it's a fun army. Is the reason people spit so much vile at it is that CSM daemons (who really should take a back seat to CSM's) are worse than their CD counterparts?
That's not the reason I hate the Daemons Codex.
And the word you're looking for is 'bile'. Look it up. There's a picture of me next to it.
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
H.B.M.C. wrote:Fateweaver wrote:I would disagree on the Daemon codex. I enjoy it and it's a fun army. Is the reason people spit so much vile at it is that CSM daemons (who really should take a back seat to CSM's) are worse than their CD counterparts?
That's not the reason I hate the Daemons Codex.
And the word you're looking for is 'bile'. Look it up. There's a picture of me next to it.
The reason H' doesn't like the Daemons codex is because Daemonic Incursions don't just happen, they're a rarity and would only appear on a world heavily tainted by Chaos. Heck, Daemons can only appear most of the time if there's cultists or Chaos Marines to summon them. I can agree with him there, but Daemons are fun to play; I have two armies of them, Khorne and Tzeentch.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
That and the way the army deploys is illogical, nonsensical and childishly 1-dimensional.
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Post by: Archonate
Bikers can take wolves instead and give you +1S, T, and A. Something about 50pts for 6 attacks with rending on the charge in there as well.
What a cliche idea. Not to mention a slowed visual. If Dark Eldar end up riding Warp Beasts, I'm out.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Hey, Spaze Woof riders are still better than bikers.
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Post by: Archonate
I personally think they're more cheesy than SM bikers. That's saying a lot.
Fateweaver wrote:SW's are sort of....feral. I don't see why it's no big deal for something as feral as an ork to ride a giant boar but a feral SM, who from the fluff is not much more civilised than an ork, cannot ride a giant wolf?
If SWs are so feral and uncivilized, why are they wearing power armor? Power armor + riding an animal = Fail.
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Post by: Fateweaver
Just because an option exists doesn't mean it has to be used. I'm sure if it's an effective unit lots of people will model them.
As far as normal wolf riders it sounds as if people will have to convert their own unit up. I think it was Phil who said no Wolf Rider models are currently planned. Only Canis will actually have his wolf mount sculpted by GW. Canis' mount is said to be larger than a juggernaught (model wise).
I'm too tired to quote from the Daemon codex but yeah, the fluff if I remember right admits they are rare and don't happen too often but in the grand scheme of things and rarity it's just as rare that Vulkan Hestan will be at every conflict that Salamanders ever get involved in and yet majority of SM lists I see are Vulcan lists (and lets not even start on his clones).
I'm way OT right now but the Daemon codex doesn't make any less sense than 200 Chapters led by Vulkan or every Chaos Space Marine army in the universe being led by dual Lash Princes of Slaanesh. LOL.
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Post by: Wannabe Writer
Archonate wrote:I personally think they're more cheesy than SM bikers. That's saying a lot. Fateweaver wrote:SW's are sort of....feral. I don't see why it's no big deal for something as feral as an ork to ride a giant boar but a feral SM, who from the fluff is not much more civilised than an ork, cannot ride a giant wolf?
If SWs are so feral and uncivilized, why are they wearing power armor? Power armor + riding an animal = Fail.
I've never thought of Space Wolves as being uncivilized. They do have an organised hierachy within their chapter, it is just that it does not conform to the Codex written by Guilliman which is considered the standard norm. I think that riding the wolves of Fenris fits with the character of the Space Wolves. These wolves are meant to be huge (as mentioned by another poster in another thread), they can grow to the size of a rhino APC. What is scarier, a marine on a bike or a marine riding a giant wolf! It fits the character of the army that as a way to prove themselves, Blood Claws (who I believe are the unit that can choose bikes) would try to tame, or rather 'brake', a giant wolf, then ride it into battle to show how hard they are. Besides, I like the warrior idea behind the Space Wolves that, while they wont do anything too tactically stupid, they will eschew standard tactics if it gave the opportunity to do something heroic which would go down in song for centuries. Riding a giant wolf into battle sounds pretty heroic to me . Also from a 'practical' point of view a wolf might be considered preferable to a bike. They could cover difficult terrain better than a vehicle, would be far more agile, would be faster then a horse (to compare them to Rough Riders) and of course Fenris wolves are giant wolves!!!! The only thing I would expect to see in the rules would be that they can not turbo boost as I would assume a bike with a hefty engine could go faster than a wolf, giant or not.
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Post by: Casper
Hmm, SW screwing with objectives is just...screwy? Depending on how much of an effect they have it could be game breaking, which could cause the army to fail (or turn into WFB Deamon Hate). Neither of the 2 options would be good.
As to the wolves riding wolves...if there is no model planned whats the point? In order to do a conversion you would have to buy 3 kits - SM Bikes ($45), New SW conversion kit ($?) and then Goblin Wolf Riders ($35). Add in the cost for more bikes (as you get 10 wolves with the gobbo's) your looking at a unit that costs between $125 (for 6 riders no SW bits) and $200 (gets you 9 riders + SW bits). Definatly not worth it.
I just hope they do the SW right and spice up the SM again. Gives me hope that my DA will at some point get a good Codex and Fluff.
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Post by: number9dream
Sigh, this is off-topic but with every new codex released ( SM, IG - especially IG - and now SW), the Ork codex is feeling more and more... bland/generic  It's got some cool individual stuff, but it seems to lack the army-wide abilities of its successors. A bit more of a nod towards the different clans would have been nice... Anyway, to get back on topic, somehwat, riding giant wolves seems pretty damned badass!
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Post by: Khornholio
How's this for a SW rumour: I knew a GW store manager in Canada who claimed that the character "Logan Grimmnar" was based on him after he went on a trip to the Nottingham studio circa 1990ish.
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Post by: Lowinor
Casper wrote:Hmm, SW screwing with objectives is just...screwy?
Hrmmm....
Saga: Heroic Sacrifice. You have been told by the seers that you're going down hard today, so you aren't going to count losses on the battlefield. Reroll "Annihilation" if it comes up on the mission table; you may reroll this reroll if it comes up again.
Suddenly, everyone would have a SW army.
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Post by: Typeline
Lowinor wrote:Casper wrote:Hmm, SW screwing with objectives is just...screwy?
Hrmmm.... Saga: Heroic Sacrifice. You have been told by the seers that you're going down hard today, so you aren't going to count losses on the battlefield. Reroll "Annihilation" if it comes up on the mission table; you may reroll this reroll if it comes up again. Suddenly, everyone would have a SW army.
But does it make sense is the real question? I personally feel that doesn't really fit a marines type army. To change the preference of the battle. If CSM had abilities to change things to just KPs I could understand, they don't have a need for anything, just trying to kill SM "BURN! MAIM! KILL!", "Blood for the blood God!" type stuff. I think SWs more than anyone have things they would want to acquire in battle to gain glory. And in a meta-game perspective, it's too powerful an ability. As the player you can build your list to a set type of mission and always eliminate the one your army isn't good at.
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Post by: dietrich
H.B.M.C. wrote:And the word you're looking for is 'bile'. Look it up. There's a picture of me next to it.
You first name isn't Fabius is it?
If bikers can ride wolves for an extra 50 points, that means it's going to be a one wound model coming in around 80 points. That is killed by a Starcannon on a 3+ or a Plasmarifle on a 2+.
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Post by: Goliath
I saw the release schedule at my local GW, The Space Wolf second wave (within a wave) is coming out 22nd october.
I would assume that this is similar to the SMs release, where the models released in two bits during the same month.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Casper wrote:Hmm, SW screwing with objectives is just...screwy?
IMO, this presages GW moving 40k even further to an Objectives game in 6th. Remember, SW are a minor Codex, and won't be updated again until 7th, so GW needs to plan pretty far ahead with their rules.
____
number9dream wrote:Sigh, this is off-topic but with every new codex released ( SM, IG - especially IG - and now SW), the Ork codex is feeling more and more... bland/generic
A bit more of a nod towards the different clans would have been nice...
Perhaps it's just that the novelty has worn off? Orks still have Waagh!
If Marines lose Traits, Eldar lost Craftworlds, CSM lost Legions, and Guard lost Doctrines, you really think GW is going to create special rules for secondary Ork armies? Besides, it's not like you can't take lots of particular stuff to theme an Ork army.
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Post by: Quintinus
number9dream wrote:Sigh, this is off-topic but with every new codex released ( SM, IG - especially IG - and now SW), the Ork codex is feeling more and more... bland/generic
It's got some cool individual stuff, but it seems to lack the army-wide abilities of its successors.
A bit more of a nod towards the different clans would have been nice...
Anyway, to get back on topic, somehwat, riding giant wolves seems pretty damned badass!
I'm so sorry for your suffering, it's not like you have one of the best codices or anything. 
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Post by: jmurph
Man, I was hoping the codex release would be end of September :-(
Oh well.
I just noticed I got grouped with Shuma for SW hate! HEH! I guess I should post some of my wolves to a gallery....
Riding wolves is slowed from a believable military perspective (predators make very poor mounts 1) because of flexible joints that do not bear weight well and 2) because they try to eat you and are generally untameable if you want to keep any fighting instinct). But they are AWESOME from a Rule of Cool perspective. Superhuman Space Viking Knights on Gigantic Space Wolves! I can already hear the guitar solo in the background as the wolf howls at the moon.
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Post by: Typeline
jmurph wrote:
Riding wolves is slowed from a believable military perspective (predators make very poor mounts 1) because of flexible joints that do not bear weight well and 2) because they try to eat you and are generally untameable if you want to keep any fighting instinct). But they are AWESOME from a Rule of Cool perspective. Superhuman Space Viking Knights on Gigantic Space Wolves! I can already hear the guitar solo in the background as the wolf howls at the moon.
I'd like to remind you sir, this is Warhammer 40,000.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
From Warseer:
Ragnarok666 wrote:
I've seen the dex. I am a very happy puppy player, i think Phil captured the spirit of the wolves.
Bjorn and Canis are by far my favorite HQ's. Ragnar is a combat monster!!!
Bjorn is armour 13/12/10 with a built in 5+ inv. save he is also a ven dread. he comes with a assault cannon but you can give him a plasma cannon for FREE with a BS 0f 6!!!! he has 4 base attacks at I3 and WS6. he allows all frendly ubits with (iirc) 12" to reroll moral. if he is killed all SW become feerless and becomes a new objective to be captured.
Canis is riding a HUGe wolf ... and the model looks great. he allows Fen. Wolf pack to become Troops. and there is a unit of wolf riders . Canis has 5 base attacks but if he gets surounded he goes crazy and get one attck for evry model in base contact.he has a pair of wolf claws. hes S5 T5 bc he is riding the wolf.
Ragnar gives himself and the unit he joins d3 extra attacks on the charge. he already has 5 built in. with WS6 and S5 thanks to his Sword hes a tornado in combat. Put Ragnar in a unit of Blood Claws and it a distructive combo because the BC get +2 attack on the charge.
Ulrik is back and hes pissed LOL hes gives the unit he joins prefered enemy angainst a unit type he chooses at the start of the game.
Logan is a true comander. he gives special rules to any unit he joins i cant remember them all but one of the is relentless. othe then that he has not changed much.
The trickster is a BC uite upgrade. And he could be a lot of fun.
The Thammer thrower is S10. he throws the hammer 6" at S10 AP1 assault 1. and he gets an extra attack for his shield.
that all i can remember at the moment ill try and get us some more!!!!
Sounds wild. GH are same cost as CSM.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
"Look at my Space Wolves!"
"Wow, those are big wolves, is that part robot?"
"No no no, the Space Wolves. . . in the armor."
"Oh, I thought it was like a cyber wolf or something, I did not realize it was armor."
"No it is a cyber wolf, the Space Wolf is ON the cyber wolf."
"Oh."
11933
Post by: number9dream
Vladsimpaler wrote:number9dream wrote:Sigh, this is off-topic but with every new codex released ( SM, IG - especially IG - and now SW), the Ork codex is feeling more and more... bland/generic It's got some cool individual stuff, but it seems to lack the army-wide abilities of its successors. A bit more of a nod towards the different clans would have been nice... Anyway, to get back on topic, somehwat, riding giant wolves seems pretty damned badass!
I'm so sorry for your suffering, it's not like you have one of the best codices or anything.
Don't get me wrong, it's a better than average codex, I just wish there was some more flavour in there. Even something like the different chaos marks but for the different clans would be fine. It's a bit of "Vanilla Orks" at the moment =] The same holds true for a bunch of other codexes as well of course, although I'm not really familiar with all of them. The Eldar codex springs to mind tho, it's also a bit "basic". It's not about the strength of the codex really, I hope you see what I'm getting at I'll give a couple of examples later, gotta run now.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Wow, I'm surprised there's been so little talk about the new rules reveal. Ah well, Friday before Labor Day I guess.
9504
Post by: sonofruss
@JHDD
* happy dance *
* happy dance *
* happy dance *
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
I think most people are out getting drunk right now so dakka is taking a backseat .....
I might just put scout army on hold and do SW's
4351
Post by: ubermosher
Scottywan82 wrote:Wow, I'm surprised there's been so little talk about the new rules reveal. Ah well, Friday before Labor Day I guess.
It is the deep breath before the whine.
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
Yeah, by Monday there will be about 15 pages of "OMG I can't belive x unit or y unit sucks so bad" or "OMG I can't believe the Wolves riding Wolves is true, how childish and lame."
I have the Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance on speed dial for those that need it.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
The trickster ...
... The Thammer ...
So damned be the Norse symbolism, let's just put Thor and Loki into the Codex.
Great...
1099
Post by: Railguns
Not to mention that the Hammer is apparently S10 AP1. Short range, but still, who carries around a pocket railgun?
123
Post by: Alpharius
(Insert obligatory "That's what she said!" joke here...)
I agree, some of these rumors are getting a bit... troubling...
I hope GW isn't going this over the top with the Wolves.
They've had a certain reputation (first received, and deservedly so, in 2nd edition) for a while, and this Codex certainly won't help!
15310
Post by: Winter
H.B.M.C. wrote:The trickster ...
... The Thammer ...
So damned be the Norse symbolism, let's just put Thor and Loki into the Codex.
Great...
Correct me if i am wrong isn't the Loki figure norse anyway?
Also i can kinda understand the hammer being str 10 ap 1, i'd imagine it's a thunder hammer which ignores wounds and doubles strength, so they have just slapped on a ranged profile?
9777
Post by: A-P
H.B.M.C. wrote:The trickster ...
... The Thammer ...
So damned be the Norse symbolism, let's just put Thor and Loki into the Codex.
Great...
Wonder who plays the role of Odin ? Lets see: we can be sure that no female members of the pantheon make an entry. That still leaves Baldur, Tyr, Frey, Heimdall and Brage from the gods and some possible cameo entries for lesser entities ( Njall already has Huginn & Muninn covered ).
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
I also asked him about Wulfen and 13. company.
I was a little bit shocked when he said that Wulfen won´t come back as a unit. He wanted them more mysterious. You can still fill in some wulfen,but not as a unit costing 18 Points.
That sounds absolutely ridiculous.
1423
Post by: dienekes96
Can't say I love the direct lifts from the Norse pantheon. I like the concepts, but I might have distanced them A LITTLE BIT from their mythological roots. That said, I like the idea of a crazy Blood Claw and a trickster SW. Even though they tied him to the actual 40K trickster (the Tzeentchian doppelganger).
Considering I prefer a 13th Company army, I am going to have to get pretty creative. Logan allows for WG troops, so that'll probably be the way to go. Not having Gate is going to suck, and there is no way to rep it. But I should have some more flexibility; in losing Gate and Wulfen, there are some new options to make a colorful hardcore Chaos fighting veteran list of heroes.
Because it certainly seems the army list got "heroes" right.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
But I should have some more flexibility; in losing Gate and Wulfen, there are some new options to make a colorful hardcore Chaos fighting veteran list of heroes.
How expensive point-wise are those Veterans?
1423
Post by: dienekes96
That depends on how you kit your WG. But very expensive. I didn't say I'd win with the list. But that won't stop me from playing it.
5394
Post by: reds8n
More from Warseer
Mr. Surtur wrote:"There’s no wolfen and there won’t be any. 13-th has faded into mist, they’re mentioned in the fluff, but on the table they can be represented only by using an old armylist.
Everyone has counterattack, they have the same space marine wargear, but it’s cheaper: combi-weapon - 5, fist - 20, frostblade - 20, hammer - 25, stormshield - 25, cost for claws differs, but they can reroll either to-hit or to-wound. Frost is a power weapon which gives +1 STR, it’s not two-handed.
Troops
Greys - 15 pts – csm style(bp + ccw+ bolter) - 2 specials for 10 man, 1 on 5 guys ( first melta costs 5, if you get another five guys you get another melta for free) – 1 attack in profile - counterattack - 8 ld – can take a totem: it allows them to reroll 1, grenades are included, + mark of the wolfen(d6 attacks, can’t be comboed with fist), 1 fist & other.
Claws – 15 pts - 3 BS & etc,, 8 ld, same story with meltas – 2 specials on 10 man; + 2 attacks from charge + mark of wolfen, 1 fist & etc.
Vehicles are SM-like, but there’s no LS Storm, Ironclad, Thunderfire and the separate units of attack bikes. All LRs are there, but nothing extra. Usual LR and pod have a transport capacity 10. It’s probably a fridge full of beer which is taking the other two...
Dreads are the same, starting with a free MM or Assault Cannon.
Huge FA, but without separate units of Attack Bikes.
There are wolfs – nasty beasts, 4 attacks, but almost unarmored (6+), cavalry. 8 pts, 4 WS.
Wolf Riders – wolf juggernauts. If only somewhat weaker and costier than juggs - 50 pts. 4 attacks, 2 wounds, 5 toughness, cavalry, rending, can take fist(10), hammer(15), etc. Squads of 1-5.
Claws on bikes and packs are cool, but they’ve got only one special and ld 8.
Elites
Scouts stay the same, but they have only one special, 2 power weapons, come out of the outflank like orkish kommandos, 1-2 – from the enemy’s table side, etc. Sarge can’t take fist.
Wolfguard – profile of the vanguard veterans - 18 pts, HUGE list of wargear, can be given anything you want, from TDA & TH & SS to combi-weapons and claws and frost blades. Also, they can leave their own squad and join greys or claws in troops or fa(in case of FA they mount bikes or wear jump packs.
Termowolves start with power swords & storm bolters, no teleportation’s deep strike, have access to drop pods. HtH termies are expensive, but with claws they get insanely high amount of attacks. Shields give 3++. TDA costs 15 points, it makes all upgrades cheaper – shield is 15 pts, claws is 5 or 10(2 claws is 15), fist is 10. Really expensive(like, 53 pts for termi with claw and shield), but can be kitted to have a maximum attacks..
Best variant for guards is like 8-9 men with 4 combi + fist or claws. Destroy the vehicle and charge.
Grimnar allows to take wolf guards as troops. Eternal warrior, costs no that much, is really good.
Ragnar - givec Furious Charge and d6 attacks to his own unit, once per game can give d6 attacks to all SW units. Rerolls 1.
Ulrik buffs his surroundings, makes his squad monster-kllers (gives them toughness 5).
All SW heroes are playable, decent and powerful. Ragnar and Ulrik are especially so. They cost no more than 200.
But Bjorn is a crapsack. 270, 13 front armour, 4 attack, lacks a focus, has really really weird special rules. After death he becomes a counter. I hope we’ll never see him on the table. Apoc only.
Runepriests – new magic – all is strong, no gates, storm in 24” - gives 5+ cover and turnes zone of usage into difficult terrain for skimmers etc. Cancels psychic powers of enemy on 4+. Must have.
Njal casts 3 powers per turn, cancels all psychic attacks on 3+.
You don’t roll for ld, you just plainly cancel them.
Wolfpriests – same as chappies, but can give preferred enemy for one of the opponent’s units.
Techpriests - 75, 2 attacks, built in hammer, can take mechanical wolves.
Wolf commanders – like SM captains only better. You can shape anything you want out of them. I got a killer with 3++, hitting on a 3+, STR 8 and eternal warrior for somewhere around 190 pts.
Sagas really differ, are given to priests and commanders. HQ – 2 sagas, priests get only one. Usually the give some rerolls to the heroes. Special characters come with them, like, Ragnar is rerolling 1 on the dice. There are eternal warrior, +d6 movement to the transport, cover for the wolfs, other are just rerolls..
Fangs are mech. Cheaper, but not relentless, can shoot at two targets at time if their sarge weren’t shooting. Now there can be 7 of ‘em, though.
Canis (185) - 2 wounds, 3 attacks +1 for claws, T 5, cavalry, in hth he hets on 3+ , S 5, reroll to wound, can give his unit an amount of attacks equal to the number of models in the squad he charges.
Special character, an upgrade for the wolf guard - 170 – Lysander profile - 3++, 10 STR. Comes as a part of the unit, so he’s not an indep, he can’t be targeted separately.
Special character, ugrade for claws – if he rolls 4+ all models that are in base to base contact with him are removed, both your and your enemies..
Lone wolves are crap, they’re not even worth describing – just wasting elite slots and being useless.
Guards have a totem/banner, it gives them some rerolls."
Before you all faint or swoon some of this directly contradicts stuff coming from more....trusted...sources, so i think there is a degree of hyperbole here. BUt it is a Phil Kelly book so we should expect it to be fething nasty and have one unit of incredible survivalness ala Ork Nobz, Seer council etc.
I think there's been a degree of misunderstanding here too. For example whilst I am pretty certain that Njal might well have a better chance of dispelling psychic powers, I believe said dispel is limited to affecting ones that only affect him/his unit. So he might well be able to dispel a Mind War cast at him on a 3+ ( or whatever) but couldn't do anything about Guide cast on the unit shooting at them.
I'm fairly certain that the LS storm IS in there too, so I'd dilute some of these a bit.
Oh and
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
dienekes96 wrote:Can't say I love the direct lifts from the Norse pantheon. I like the concepts, but I might have distanced them A LITTLE BIT from their mythological roots.
That's what I meant. I was fine with the norse symbolism - that's cool, and works for the 'Space Viking' army - but just having Thor and Loki as special characters (even with different names) stinks of laziness. What, is the Thor guy's hammer going to be called Mjolnir?
4875
Post by: His Master's Voice
Warseer wrote:Got my hands on some SW rumours from trustworthy source.
"There’s no wolfen and there won’t be any. 13-th has faded into mist, they’re mentioned in the fluff, but on the table they can be represented only by using an old armylist.
Everyone has counterattack, they have the same space marine wargear, but it’s cheaper: combi-weapon - 5, fist - 20, frostblade - 20, hammer - 25, stormshield - 25, cost for claws differs, but they can reroll either to-hit or to-wound. Frost is a power weapon which gives +1 STR, it’s not two-handed.
Troops
Greys - 15 pts – csm style(bp + ccw+ bolter) - 2 specials for 10 man, 1 on 5 guys ( first melta costs 5, if you get another five guys you get another melta for free) – 1 attack in profile - counterattack - 8 ld – can take a totem: it allows them to reroll 1, grenades are included, + mark of the wolfen(d6 attacks, can’t be comboed with fist), 1 fist & other.
Claws – 15 pts - 3 BS & etc,, 8 ld, same story with meltas – 2 specials on 10 man; + 2 attacks from charge + mark of wolfen, 1 fist & etc.
Vehicles are SM-like, but there’s no LS Storm, Ironclad, Thunderfire and the separate units of attack bikes. All LRs are there, but nothing extra. Usual LR and pod have a transport capacity 10. It’s probably a fridge full of beer which is taking the other two...
Dreads are the same, starting with a free MM or Assault Cannon.
Huge FA, but without separate units of Attack Bikes.
There are wolfs – nasty beasts, 4 attacks, but almost unarmored (6+), cavalry. 8 pts, 4 WS.
Wolf Riders – wolf juggernauts. If only somewhat weaker and costier than juggs - 50 pts. 4 attacks, 2 wounds, 5 toughness, cavalry, rending, can take fist(10), hammer(15), etc. Squads of 1-5.
Claws on bikes and packs are cool, but they’ve got only one special and ld 8.
Elites
Scouts stay the same, but they have only one special, 2 power weapons, come out of the outflank like orkish kommandos, 1-2 – from the enemy’s table side, etc. Sarge can’t take fist.
Wolfguard – profile of the vanguard veterans - 18 pts, HUGE list of wargear, can be given anything you want, from TDA & TH & SS to combi-weapons and claws and frost blades. Also, they can leave their own squad and join greys or claws in troops or fa(in case of FA they mount bikes or wear jump packs.
Termowolves start with power swords & storm bolters, no teleportation’s deep strike, have access to drop pods. HtH termies are expensive, but with claws they get insanely high amount of attacks. Shields give 3++. TDA costs 15 points, it makes all upgrades cheaper – shield is 15 pts, claws is 5 or 10(2 claws is 15), fist is 10. Really expensive(like, 53 pts for termi with claw and shield), but can be kitted to have a maximum attacks..
Best variant for guards is like 8-9 men with 4 combi + fist or claws. Destroy the vehicle and charge.
Grimnar allows to take wolf guards as troops. Eternal warrior, costs no that much, is really good.
Ragnar - givec Furious Charge and d6 attacks to his own unit, once per game can give d6 attacks to all SW units. Rerolls 1.
Ulrik buffs his surroundings, makes his squad monster-kllers (gives them toughness 5).
All SW heroes are playable, decent and powerful. Ragnar and Ulrik are especially so. They cost no more than 200.
But Bjorn is a crapsack. 270, 13 front armour, 4 attack, lacks a focus, has really really weird special rules. After death he becomes a counter. I hope we’ll never see him on the table. Apoc only.
Runepriests – new magic – all is strong, no gates, storm in 24” - gives 5+ cover and turnes zone of usage into difficult terrain for skimmers etc. Cancels psychic powers of enemy on 4+. Must have.
Njal casts 3 powers per turn, cancels all psychic attacks on 3+.
You don’t roll for ld, you just plainly cancel them.
Wolfpriests – same as chappies, but can give preferred enemy for one of the opponent’s units.
Techpriests - 75, 2 attacks, built in hammer, can take mechanical wolves.
Wolf commanders – like SM captains only better. You can shape anything you want out of them. I got a killer with 3++, hitting on a 3+, STR 8 and eternal warrior for somewhere around 190 pts.
Sagas really differ, are given to priests and commanders. HQ – 2 sagas, priests get only one. Usually the give some rerolls to the heroes. Special characters come with them, like, Ragnar is rerolling 1 on the dice. There are eternal warrior, +d6 movement to the transport, cover for the wolfs, other are just rerolls..
Fangs are mech. Cheaper, but not relentless, can shoot at two targets at time if their sarge weren’t shooting. Now there can be 7 of ‘em, though.
Canis (185) - 2 wounds, 3 attacks +1 for claws, T 5, cavalry, in hth he hets on 3+ , S 5, reroll to wound, can give his unit an amount of attacks equal to the number of models in the squad he charges.
Special character, an upgrade for the wolf guard - 170 – Lysander profile - 3++, 10 STR. Comes as a part of the unit, so he’s not an indep, he can’t be targeted separately.
Special character, ugrade for claws – if he rolls 4+ all models that are in base to base contact with him are removed, both your and your enemies..
Lone wolves are crap, they’re not even worth describing – just wasting elite slots and being useless.
Guards have a totem/banner, it gives them some rerolls."
Fun stuff. I've ordered an additional Space Hulk box to convert the termies to WG.
Fah, ninja'ed by a mile...
reds8n wrote:I'm fairly certain that the LS storm IS in there too, so I'd dilute some of these a bit.
Someone on B&C already said that, contrary to previous rumors, Storms aren't confirmed for Wolfs.
8842
Post by: dashrendar
I see a lot of SM players playing 'counts as' with this codex. at least when it first comes out for awhile.
1478
Post by: warboss
H.B.M.C. wrote:That's what I meant. I was fine with the norse symbolism - that's cool, and works for the 'Space Viking' army - but just having Thor and Loki as special characters (even with different names) stinks of laziness. What, is the Thor guy's hammer going to be called Mjolnir?
come on, give GW the credit they have earned and deserve! it'll be Njolmir and it channels thunder, NOT lightning. totally different...
443
Post by: skyth
So Wolf Priests don't have healing balms any more?
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Too many special characters. I find that they stink.
This is JJ's work.
Wolf commanders – like SM captains only better. You can shape anything you want out of them. I got a killer with 3++, hitting on a 3+, STR 8 and eternal warrior for somewhere around 190 pts.
Strength 8 is amazing.
11933
Post by: number9dream
Special character, ugrade for claws – if he rolls 4+ all models that are in base to base contact with him are removed, both your and your enemies..
What the feth?
So on a 4+ he's gonna "remove" anything in the game? Or does eternal warrior protect?
Oh and the anti-psychic powers stuff sounds nasty.
18225
Post by: The Unending
number9dream wrote:Special character, ugrade for claws – if he rolls 4+ all models that are in base to base contact with him are removed, both your and your enemies..
What the feth?
So on a 4+ he's gonna "remove" anything in the game? Or does eternal warrior protect?
remember that your also effectively destroying half your own unit as well as special characters that get to close to him(unless hes an independent charater which would make him sort of like a berzerker unit that would do as much damage as possible and then die horribly)
Even before I heard all these rumors I was gonna pick up the space wolves and make them my main army, but with some of these rumors i'm worried about getting accused of being a power gamer.
9777
Post by: A-P
number9dream wrote:So on a 4+ he's gonna "remove" anything in the game? Or does eternal warrior protect?
I will take this ( along with certain other points ) with a spoonfull of salt. If true, there must be some conditions and limits attached. I really can´t believe a lone Astartes eliminating automatically an Eldar Avatar, a Deamon Prince or a C´tan.
8815
Post by: Archonate
You underestimate GWs SM favoritism. That is the type of rule that should belong to The Avatar or a C'tan. But no, that would allow them to kill SMs too easily, and we can't have any of that... So they give the rule to a SM SC. Auto kill anything without a fight.
I'm praying that we're hearing outrageous exaggerations about half these rules, or we will see all SM players use the SW codex for whatever chapter they play.
11933
Post by: number9dream
The Unending wrote:number9dream wrote:Special character, ugrade for claws – if he rolls 4+ all models that are in base to base contact with him are removed, both your and your enemies..
What the feth?
So on a 4+ he's gonna "remove" anything in the game? Or does eternal warrior protect?
remember that your also effectively destroying half your own unit as well as special characters that get to close to him(unless hes an independent charater which would make him sort of like a berzerker unit that would do as much damage as possible and then die horribly)
Even before I heard all these rumors I was gonna pick up the space wolves and make them my main army, but with some of these rumors i'm worried about getting accused of being a power gamer.
Unless you, for whatever reasons, don't want to play a strong army, I don't think you should care what others say There's nothing wrong with playing a strong army lol
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
.......and thus it begins.
Alot of these fly in the face of what has been quoted by other, more reliable sources on other forums so I would take most of these with wheelbarrows of salt.
Stacking up on uber units and characters means epic fail in 83% of the missions in the rulebook as you won't be holding or taking objectives very easily.
5468
Post by: temprus
Fateweaver wrote:Alot of these fly in the face of what has been quoted by other, more reliable sources on other forums so I would take most of these with wheelbarrows of salt.
Nah, GW is now sending out fake codexes to shops to see where they are breaking the black box street date! God, I hope I am only joking.
10906
Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Am I the only person that likes the idea of the Lone Wolves?
I was looking at the book earlier and really like alot of whats in it, sure some of it can be cheep to use but if I don't use them I fail to see the problem.
This book actually got me really excited about playing 40k again after I've been losing interest.
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
Brother, you are not supposed to like units that are less than ideal in tournaments. Didn't you know that if you mathhammer something 1,000 times and it fails to perform 501 times it is a garbage unit and you move onto the next unit and do the same until only a handful of units remain and then you build lists around those 5 units.
Apparently the only 5 units in the CSM dex are Plaguemarines, Berserkers, Obliterators, Lash Princes and Vindicators (the latter usually not taken if points will buy 3 more oblits).
Lone Wolves sound fun. Too bad its inconceivable a unit should exist for fun and theme and not power gaming. Ah well. From Monday on until the 'Nid codex in February I'll get to wade through 9 posts of whine to read 1 post where some didn't react in a knee-jerk way to a unit and posted a well thought out tactic or use for said unit.
Them's the interwebs I guess
10906
Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Must have missed that memo.
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
Meh, it (the SW codex) is already being picked apart as far as what units are good/bad ONLY based on rumors, not even known points costs or exact stats.
Expect the same to happen here starting next week when more people see the 'black box codex".
'Tis a sad day when you can't post up a fun list to be critiqued in the tactics/army list section because people will just tell you to buy the flavor of the month army list and to hell with your theme or idea of fun.
Winning is fun but winning because you are a copypasta with no imagination to use units you like effectively makes that person a tool of the interwebs.
Don't care either way what the 'dex is or isn't as I can't afford to collect them and nobody in my group intends to start a wolf army either. I'll just buy the codex for toilet reading material.
10906
Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
If I remember correctly the Lone Wolve is 20 points base.
WS 5 with 2 wounds, eternal warrior, feel no pain and re-rolls to hit against Walkers, Monstrous Creatures and things above T5. They are also really angry and have lots of options. They sound incredibly fun to use.
The people that say to hell with my theme can go to hell, because my gaming group tends to work off themes, and come up with our own heroes based off of models that did well in games and other things like that.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Steiner, anything else you can confirm for us? Sizes of GH and BC squads?
Number of HQ choices?
Is the Landspeeder storm in there? Iron Clad Dreadnought?
What are the special weapon options for GH and BC? What about special CCWs (power weapon, power fist)? Plasma pistols?
Just things I'm curious about.
Love the five heavy weapon Long Fangs. Wicked cool.
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
Scotty,
5-10 GH like Ultras, need 10 for 2 specials; can take up to 1 special CCW (fist, claw, hammer, etc). I think BC's still top at 15 (no doubt to allow a WG in PA to join the squad and ride in an LRC)
Conflicting reports on Ironclad and Storm. Some say they are in, some say they don't recall seeing them.
2 per slot but no duplicates (so no 2 wolflords or rune priests, etc...)
GH squads get 2 specials; 1/5; I assume same access as Ultra codex; BC's rumored to only get 1 Pw/Pf but can have a WG lead the squad, WG get plethora of options.
Apparently LF squad are max of 7 now with 5 heavies, can still split fire.
Oh, 'tis reported that only the LR and LRC are in the 'dex; no mention of the LRR or the rumored ACRaider.
Again, don't take it to gospel. I remember weeks before the IG codex came out peeps were arguing over what they saw or didn't see even though it was obviously the same codex people were looking at (assuming all black box codeciies are the same).
Edited for wrongness first time.
10906
Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Well I didn't take that close of a look at the book but I'll let you know what I remember.
HQ:
Wolf Lord
Wolf Guard Battle Leader
Rune Priest
Wolf Priest
Iron Priest
Wolf Lords and WGBL's (I think the BL's) can take sagas for a certain number of points. One makes you Eternal Warrior, another makes you have an extra number of attacks based off the number of models you killed in Close Combat the previous turn.
Elites-
Wolf Guard - Base 18points, 33pts with Terminator Armor, 3-10 in a Squad, Start with PA, Bolt Pistol, Bolt Gun, CCW
Wolf Scouts- dont remember squad size, Behind Enemy lines on a 1 you come in on the right short side of the table, a 2 on the left, 3-6 anywhere you want. Full sized squad can have 2 Plasma Pistols or Power Weapons, plus a Special Weapon. Every Model can have a Boltgun for free or a Sniper Rifle for 3 points.
Lone Wolfs- listed in earlier post
Didn't pay much attention to the rest of the Elites sorry.
Elites or Fast attack may include Space Wolves that ride on Cybernetically enhanced Fenrisian Wolves. They have S5 T5. They are 50pts a model. Every HQ lord can take one of the Wolves for a cost listed in their Wargear.
Fast Attack
Blood Claw Biker Unit,have the Blood Claw Special Rules
Blood Claw Assault Squad, have the Blood Claw Special Rules
Land Speeder Squadrons, dont recall seeing LS Storms.
Troops-
Grey Hunters- 5-10 Models. One SpecWeap for 5 models, two for 10 models. Boltgun, Bolt Pistol and CCW standard. Dont remember everything, I think one model may take the Mark of the Wulfen. They cost 15pts a model.
Blood Claws- 5-15 models I think, dont remember much about them, they get a unit upgrade known as the Trickster he is a special Blood Claw
Heavy Support:
Land Raiders- the Standard Las and the Crusader are all they get I think.
Predators
Long Fangs
No Leman Russ MBTs
Sorry thats all I have for you, I only got a few minutes with the book, and most of them were spent drooling over the new models and looking over the Lone Wolves fluff and options.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
My question is this:
Is there ever any point in taking non-Special Characters? Do they do anything that cannot be done better with a Special Character?
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Any non-special character can be made better with the sagas, they can even be made to do similar things to the SCs or things SCs cannot. One saga grants them and their unit (I think) Stealth and Outflank, I don't recall any of the others doing that. Of course other than Grimnar I just skimmed over every one else.
Grimnar gives all units in his army +1 attack if they are within 18 inches. He also has the ability to change the special rules of the unit he is attatched to every turn. I recall the abilities being Fearless, Tank Hunters, Preferred Enemy and a couple others.
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Post by: Scottywan82
I'm still curious on the maximum numbers of power weapons/fists in a GH and BC squad. Sounds like I need to remove a few from my units.
Also, are the BC Bikes the full 10 men plus an attack bike?
Are there any attack bike squadrons?
Do BC have to charge if within charge range still?
Definitely would like the full list of special characters/sagas with their actual names/pt costs.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Transports?
-droppods/rhino/razorback/ LR = points? dedicated?
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Post by: reds8n
LS storm is not in the codex, my apologies. No thunderfire or ironclad either. Shouts out to various people on warseer for these rumours.
Its +D3 attacks when Ragnar and his unit charges, Ragnar also has the "saga of the warrior born" which is the crazy 'you get more attacks the following round equal to the number of kills".
HQs are 2 per slot but you cant take duplicates
As for wolf priests there is NO FNP, or re rolls to hit like Litanes of Hate, they have preferred enemy against 1 type of unit.
I believe they might pass this ability onto a unt they join. And it's TYPE of unit ( infantry, bikes, cavalry) etc.
Saga of Majesty
All friendly units within 6" get to re-roll failed morale checks
Saga fo the Beast Killer
Re-roll to hit and wound against models of T5 or higher
Storm shields are apparently very expensive in the codex, Njal is sickeningly good apparently,
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Post by: Sirius42
To all you folks who have the codex/have seen the codex: take some photos already.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
Scottywan82 wrote:I'm still curious on the maximum numbers of power weapons/fists in a GH and BC squad. Sounds like I need to remove a few from my units.
Also, are the BC Bikes the full 10 men plus an attack bike?
I don't know if there are Attack Bikes, and I'm not sure on the numbers allowed sorry.
Are there any attack bike squadrons?
I don't recall seeing any, though it could be an option for the squad. Oh Bikes and Jump Troops have special Names now that I can't remember.
Do BC have to charge if within charge range still?
I'm not sure, I know they have the rule that grants them 2 extra attacks on the charge, +1 for charging +1 for the rule. It doesn't effect counter charge. They also have the rule Hard Headed or something like that, but I don't recall what it does.
Definitely would like the full list of special characters/sagas with their actual names/pt costs.
I can give you a partial on the SC, and a recap of the Sagas. Logan Grimnar, Urlik the Slayer, Njal, Bjorn, Arjac(?) he's the Thunder hammer throwing hero that can also shield bash with his strom shield on the charge (+1 Attack), The Trickster (A BC upgrade), Wolf Riding Wolf Claw guy, maybe one other.
Sagas(Don't remember the exact names or all of them);
-One of them makes the HQ plus attached squad have Outflank and Stealth
-Take any model killed in CC by the commander and set them a side, on the next turn add the number of killed models to the models number of attacks, he now has the total of the two numbers for his number of attacks that turn. So 6 attacks base, killed 5 guys that turn, add them together you have 11 next round of close combat.
- One of them makes the character Immune to instant death.
-Saga of Majesty
All friendly units within 6" get to re-roll failed morale checks (As pointed out by Red)
-Saga fo the Beast Killer
Re-roll to hit and wound against models of T5 or higher (As pointed out by Red)
NOTE: It seems that all of the Sagas are 25 points or higher.
1hadhq wrote:Transports?
-droppods/rhino/razorback/ LR = points? dedicated?
Drop Pods are in the Army, just about everything can take one. Rhinos and Razorbacks appear I believe they are exactly the same as in the SM dex + or - a few points. There is only the LRC and standard LR if memory serves. Sorry I didn't take note of the points cost.
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Post by: number9dream
Fateweaver wrote:Brother, you are not supposed to like units that are less than ideal in tournaments. Didn't you know that if you mathhammer something 1,000 times and it fails to perform 501 times it is a garbage unit and you move onto the next unit and do the same until only a handful of units remain and then you build lists around those 5 units.
Apparently the only 5 units in the CSM dex are Plaguemarines, Berserkers, Obliterators, Lash Princes and Vindicators (the latter usually not taken if points will buy 3 more oblits).
Lone Wolves sound fun. Too bad its inconceivable a unit should exist for fun and theme and not power gaming. Ah well. From Monday on until the 'Nid codex in February I'll get to wade through 9 posts of whine to read 1 post where some didn't react in a knee-jerk way to a unit and posted a well thought out tactic or use for said unit.
Them's the interwebs I guess
Fateweaver wrote:Meh, it (the SW codex) is already being picked apart as far as what units are good/bad ONLY based on rumors, not even known points costs or exact stats.
Expect the same to happen here starting next week when more people see the 'black box codex".
'Tis a sad day when you can't post up a fun list to be critiqued in the tactics/army list section because people will just tell you to buy the flavor of the month army list and to hell with your theme or idea of fun.
Winning is fun but winning because you are a copypasta with no imagination to use units you like effectively makes that person a tool of the interwebs.
Don't care either way what the 'dex is or isn't as I can't afford to collect them and nobody in my group intends to start a wolf army either. I'll just buy the codex for toilet reading material.
Wow, the Casual Gaming Maffia is real...
Seriously, why does it bother you so much if people are talking about units from a competitive standpoint? Just because YOU don't care about that, doesn't mean others don't. And if you post a list in the army list forum, shouldn't it be because you want to know how to improve it...? Why would you post something if all you are looking for is "Yeah, Flash Gitz are awesome dude, you'll do great" *snicker*
Finally, no, I don't think any units should be "purely fluff". Do you know why? Because there's no reason to.
I love Shining Spears. Are they good? No. Would I love Shining Spears if they didn't cost a leg and an arm and had a tiny squad size? YES!! They would be just as fluffy and I'd like them just as much, but using them wouldn't actually hurt my chances of winning now. I might still get some, who knows, but surely you can understand why I'd prefer them to be actually good units.
No unit needs to be bad. If it's not awesomely uber, then price it accordingly...
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Post by: dienekes96
Thanks, Stynier. Now I don't have to waste time on rules or points cost when I get my few minutes with the pre-release book, I can go right to mini, art, and story. Much appreciated!
Looking at units competitively is fine. Being snarky about units that aren't "competitive" in a pre-release thread is what bothers some of the posters. This is a game. No money is riding on it. Should every unit be great? Sure. But the with variety, it rarely works out that way. And sometimes units exist to be fun and characterful, and just can't get rules to make them particularly competitive. That is OK. You want to play to win, have at it.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
No problem Dienekes
I have a strange thought, why can't people be capable of playing for fun and competitiveness? Like at separate times, play a fun games and competitive games.
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Post by: The Unending
This may shape up to be one of the best codexes of the year for all of the following reasons.
1. Jervishammer may be out of this book as sagas make it sound like you can make a non-unique HQ thats just as capable as a SC. This may just eliminate the need to take a SC to be competitive.
2. The army has a low model which also means that getting armies together might be cheaper. I'm starting to get into 40K but have never been able to get together a full army as my wallet wouldn't allow it. If I don't need to buy an absurd amount of models to make an army I will be a very happy man. This goes for other new players getting into the game as well.
3. Space Marines that are actually interesting is always a plus. The vanilla space marines book was the first codex that I couldn't read all the way through the fluff out of sheer boredom. By contrast I can't read enough of my space wolves omnibus.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yes. Isn't it nice that Space Wolves get a revamped Daemonic Gift system. Wouldn't it be nice if another army had kept theirs rather than losing it for the first time since that certain army was invented...
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Post by: Cheese Elemental
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes. Isn't it nice that Space Wolves get a revamped Daemonic Gift system. Wouldn't it be nice if another army had kept theirs rather than losing it for the first time since that certain army was invented...
If only Phil Kelly wrote our codex, and Gav Thorpe was given his WHFB books to play with.
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Post by: VictorVonTzeentch
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes. Isn't it nice that Space Wolves get a revamped Daemonic Gift system. Wouldn't it be nice if another army had kept theirs rather than losing it for the first time since that certain army was invented...
Yeah...
Cheese Elemental wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes. Isn't it nice that Space Wolves get a revamped Daemonic Gift system. Wouldn't it be nice if another army had kept theirs rather than losing it for the first time since that certain army was invented...
If only Phil Kelly wrote our codex, and Gav Thorpe was given his WHFB books to play with.
Well luckily I play both of these armies eh?
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Post by: Stygian Mole
This 'dex is off the chain!
Make your own SCs here folks!
Now just gimme some minis and fluff
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
10 man capacity for Drop Pods = lame ass crap.
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Post by: TBD
Isn't 10 the usual capacity
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Post by: Typeline
TBD wrote:Isn't 10 the usual capacity
Spheeazzs Marheens! have capacity 12 to their DPs. H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes. Isn't it nice that Space Wolves get a revamped Daemonic Gift system. Wouldn't it be nice if another army had kept theirs rather than losing it for the first time since that certain army was invented...
Cheese Elemental wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes. Isn't it nice that Space Wolves get a revamped Daemonic Gift system. Wouldn't it be nice if another army had kept theirs rather than losing it for the first time since that certain army was invented...
If only Phil Kelly wrote our codex, and Gav Thorpe was given his WHFB books to play with.
Two words: Counts as
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
18072
Post by: TBD
Thanks for posting those
Unfortunately I don't like the look of those miniatures at all.
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Post by: The Unending
what is the currency pictured so that I can work out the prices.
edit: never mind
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Post by: TBD
The Unending wrote:what is the currency pictured so that I can work out the prices.
Euro
For me, all those animal heads, tails and other furs on the plastics better be optional parts, otherwise I am not buying. I do like the armour and the symbols on it a lot, and the weapons look great too (after I remove some of the tails hanging from the bolters) But those furs and animal heads better be separate, optional parts.
And that wolf looks slowed Imo.
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Post by: Myrthe
Ummm ... a bit underwhelmed here. I was really excited about new Space Wolves and the rumors of the Wolf Rider had me stoked !!!
That "wolf" doesn't even look like a wolf !! The muzzle is too short and cat-like and the "fur" looks like the top of a lemon merangue pie !!!!
And what ?? When did the Space Wolves become a bunch of unkempt, homeless bums in power armor ?!?!! (Sorry, no offense to unkempt, homeless folks intended).
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Post by: TBD
I think there will be a helmeted head for every model included as well, so I'm not worried about that part. Some of those bare heads look good enough. Warhammer Fantasy Chaos players will probably want some of these heads.
I'm worried about the pelts on the Wolf Guard being part of the legs. That would suck monkey balls.
The Lightning Clawed Wolf Guard Terminator and the double handed axe do look very good though.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Nice to see multipart plastic kits.
and again from spain....
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Post by: Alpharius
Uh, this thread is starting to generate WAY too many Mod Alerts.
Keep it polite and on-topic, or risk a suspension of your posting privileges.
Please consider yourselves warned.
(You know who you are.)
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Post by: warboss
the terminators look nice (and from the spoilers above can be individually outfitted so they'll come with plenty of weapons to choose from). canis, on the other hand, looks like bad anime; that model is horrible. i'm suprised he doesn't have huge eyes and his mouth isn't open with little exclamation points modelled next to it...
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Post by: Uriels_Flame
The wolf rider and mount don't do it for me.
I know 40k is supposed to be OTT, but DANG! That looks just odd. In keeping with Rough Riders and Blood Crushers I expected a little more.
But I guess when you think in your mind "Aw that would be so cool to have a SM ride a Wolf" this is what you get. I like a few of the Termi's and Guardians, but overall the whole range just looks a bit silly. 13th Company look pretty sweet, so how'd we get to this point?
Really?
And I guess the previous rumor about them not getting Storm Shields has been put down?
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Post by: Railguns
The first word that comes to mind when I see those models is Wacky. Don't ask me why, I couldn't tell you. Wacky with a capital Blue.
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