Demogerg wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:I'm really hoping there's some sort of hitch to that Maw power. Talk about broken. Dear Jesus. Chain Lightning isn't exactly the most balanced thing I've seen, either. Give SW Librarians 5-6 (on average) autocannons that are assault instead of heavy? Why not? it's like having 2 dakka Predators in one model that can't be directly shot at for half the cost. That seems fair, right?

Native Fenrisians are Illiterate, Thus Space Wolves do not have Librarians, they have Rune Priests.

All Librarians are Psykers, not all Psykers are Librarians.

Semantics, it makes me a happy troll.

I shall out-troll you!
Native Fenrisans are not as a rule illiterate. While it is true they mainly pass their sagas down by oral tradition, they do have Runes and such to mark items and placenames. I would assume their Elders know a thing or two about it, especially considering what bawls it takes to survive past 10-12 fenrisan years
There is a part in one of the Space Wolf books where an Inquisitor asks Ragnar to translate some machine printed Fenrisan Runes, which I am guessing that even if he learnt how to read after become a Blood Claw, there must have been an runeset used by the Native Fenrisans..

The top tourney SW lists will run at least two Rune Priests with the line of death and chain lightning powers. I have a sneaky suspiscion that this army is a lord delivery system.

I heard that the HQ choices have all got uber stats that warrant their insane price tags. Well we have the stats for Bjorn - which is crazy - and Canis is an anti infantry monster - i've tested him and he can get rid of single wound infantry in combat better than anyone else. If you are single wound infantry and are not hitting first, just stay away.

This is Codex Heroes of the Imperium and if the rest of the characters are as broken as Canis...

We're going to need a bigger gun.

How about using thunder cats as a theme?

Already thought about Thundercats, I wasn't a fan TBH. He-Man had back up in the form of Eternian Palace Guard. It makes them more viable than Thundercats, who only had the Burbles as back up and they were just teddy bears.

Gwar! wrote:

Demogerg wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:I'm really hoping there's some sort of hitch to that Maw power. Talk about broken. Dear Jesus. Chain Lightning isn't exactly the most balanced thing I've seen, either. Give SW Librarians 5-6 (on average) autocannons that are assault instead of heavy? Why not? it's like having 2 dakka Predators in one model that can't be directly shot at for half the cost. That seems fair, right?

Native Fenrisians are Illiterate, Thus Space Wolves do not have Librarians, they have Rune Priests.

All Librarians are Psykers, not all Psykers are Librarians.

Semantics, it makes me a happy troll.

I shall out-troll you!
Native Fenrisans are not as a rule illiterate. While it is true they mainly pass their sagas down by oral tradition, they do have Runes and such to mark items and placenames. I would assume their Elders know a thing or two about it, especially considering what bawls it takes to survive past 10-12 fenrisan years
There is a part in one of the Space Wolf books where an Inquisitor asks Ragnar to translate some machine printed Fenrisan Runes, which I am guessing that even if he learnt how to read after become a Blood Claw, there must have been an runeset used by the Native Fenrisans..

The book you are refering to is the first book in the Ragnar series, which although is full of conflicting fluff (and thus the the whole can be assumed as non canonical) the point at which you are refering to is After Ragnar has been taught how to read by the ancient teaching-machines. Also, it was written using imperial lettering in the fenrisian tongue, as Ragnar at first did not understand why the Inquisitor could not understand it. The Runes themselves are only learned by the Eldars on Fenris, (save for members of the Space Wolves) and even then, vary from tribe to tribe. youths may learn what a few specific runes mean, but they (generally speaking) do not fully understand the runic script.

Demogerg wrote:The book you are refering to is the first book in the Ragnar series, which although is full of conflicting fluff (and thus the the whole can be assumed as non canonical) the point at which you are refering to is After Ragnar has been taught how to read by the ancient teaching-machines.

Oh I agree it is full of contradictory stuff, the whole Series is (Especially Tyranids with Endoskeletons, wtf?) but it still doesn't explain that there are Runes in the first place. I highly doubt the Space Wolves invented them out of thin air. They must have been used by the Fenrisans pre-Russ and would I assume still be used in a limited manner.

Redbeard:

Considering almost everyone is meching up these days, maybe the maw power wont be as strong as it otherwise could be?

Of course, Tyranids and Necrons don't have much choice

Mechrons??? Someone I know keeps saying that with 3 Monolith it's possible.

I don't understand how he thinks this works.

Necrons, Tyranids and Orks are going to feel the pain more than the other armies. Plague Marines at initiative 3 are going to feel it too.

I thought you couldn't have duplicate HQs. So only one Rune Priest per army. I'll check at my FLGS tonight. -K

have we gotten a direct word for word on the ruling for the MAW power? does it just say removed on a fail, or does it say instant death (which would help the nids) or is it auto wound with no saves?

Korthu wrote:I thought you couldn't have duplicate HQs. So only one Rune Priest per army. I'll check at my FLGS tonight. -K

Njarl isnt a rune priest, he is a Njarl

Daemons have a hard time mechanizing too. Tau and Eldar skimmers are overpriced compared to the transports that other armies have, so they're already at a disadvantage if they mech up too.

Besides, saying 'everyone is meching up' is a bit of a misnomer. At some point, the guys get out of the transports (and are actually bunched up pretty nicely when they do).

I just think it's a very poorly conceived power. There are existing parallels (turn to squig/spawn powers), but they're far more significantly limited in terms of range (6" for the spawn-you powers), and effectiveness (the only things you can spawn 2/3rds of the time are ratlings/snots, zoggy's power only succeeds 40% of the time and is limited to ICs), and only hit one model at a time.

If the maw power could kill a carnifex easily, but had these other limits, it would be ok. As it stands, it's a complete no-brainer that wins you certain matchups without trying, while still being faily useful in the other matchups.

Tau crisis suits and broadsides are in the same boat - I2, so they're dead 2/3rds of the time, and with 40mm bases and a coherency requirement, it's not going to be hard to zap a bunch of them either.

How?

Against a competent opponent, at least. If the other guy lines up his valuable models perpendicular to the RP (which is pretty much going to be "playing against Space Wolves 101" now), to hit two models the RP is going to have to move, at minimum, more than the starting distance between the RP and the unit in question.

The RP can move 12" if given a bike or a jump pack.

So, you have to be under 12" to get two models from the same unit, if moved intelligently. At under 12", the SW player's best option is more likely to be just charging you straight up -- if your Crisis Suits are under 12" away from Space Wolves in general, you have more problems than a psychic power, even if it is a really strong psychic power.

Maw may be in league with Lash as the best psychic power in the game (but I'll wait to see an exact reading of it first, a simple as-of-yet-non-publicized limitation like "must not have moved in movement phase" or such would tone it down drastically), but these worst cases (multiple Crisis Suits a turn!) are really only going to show up against bad players anyway, and overpowered is irrelevant if one or both players involved doesn't know how to play the game in the first place.

That sounds like a very short-sighted solution. Sure, just keep your models perpendicular to that unit that's moving around at 12" per turn. No problem!

You don't necessarily have to be within 12" to get 2 models. The Rune Priest still has a 24" range when trying to hit 2+ models, you know. Realistically, the 2-hit threat range is something like a 43" line segment centered between the two models in question. One unit might not be that big of a problem to keep protected, but if you have a few things to move around, you're probably going to be screwed.

Furthermore, that argument is only applicable to small units, even if you assume it works. Are you planning on keeping your Nob biker squad perpendicular to the RP, too? Carnifexes are an army of one. Ditto Necron lords. Bad players most certainly are not the only ones who'd be screwed by this power if it works as reported.

And it's not just a move. You forget that he can pod in anywhere. I suppose you could keep your whole army in reserve, and hope that you can get to the objectives without exposing themselves to this power too much. Or maybe deploy along the board edge, to limit what he can do (but again, you have to move to the objectives at some point).

Or perhaps deploy any unit of more than 2 models into triangles or other shapes to limit how many a single line can be drawn through, and just accept that at least two will be hit.

The larger your bases are, the harder it is to avoid while maintaining coherency too. Nob bikers mounted on 60mm bases are in a much worse position than those on bike bases. Bloodcrushers and Beasts of Nurgle are going to have a harder time. (beasts especially with their lower initiative.)

Sure, there are steps that a competent player can take to minimize the damage that can be done, but assume that the space wolf player is at least as intelligent in running it.

Redbeard wrote:Sure, there are steps that a competent player can take to minimize the damage that can be done, but assume that the space wolf player is at least as intelligent in running it.

And outside of specific cases like Carnifexes (who are getting screwed hard in the deal, definitely), how does it compare to a Vindicator?

I just don't see the power as game-breaking. It's good, yes. It's very good. It kills 'fexes better than anything in the game, and is really strong against Necrons -- further weakening two lists that already have trouble in the 5e metagame due to not being terribly good against mechanized lists. If anything, it's actively weak against mech, the dominant form of 5e lists.

I just don't think it's going to be game-breaking. The situations contrived to show its power assume naive placement on the opponent's part and (in the specific case of 'fexes) are just further disadvantaging a list that's on the downs due to the 5e metagame anyway.

*shrug*

Most SW players will take a Maw. 5e metagamed lists will hardly notice. The lists that do were in a bad position because of codex age anyway.

Njal is One Figure=345 pts
He cost almost as much as a Long Fang Pack
5 Long Fangs =75 points
5 Plasma-Cannons=100 Points
1 Raizorback with Twin-Linked Las Cannons=80 points
Total=255 points
That is 5 S7 AP2 Heavy Blast-1 and 1 S9 AP-2 [TL] attacks that hit on a 3+ with 50%+ more range

Which inflicts the most damage?

For the Points give me the Long Fangs

3d6 s7 attacks with unlimited range is far more tactical than a 24" instant kill button.. They are both very good powers but the ability to kill units that hide in corners is quite amazing

Most of those units are small 5 man weapon teams or some kind of support unit

Anpu42 wrote:Njal is One Figure=345 pts
He cost almost as much as a Long Fang Pack
5 Long Fangs =75 points
5 Plasma-Cannons=100 Points
1 Raizorback with Twin-Linked Las Cannons=80 points
Total=255 points
That is 5 S7 AP2 Heavy Blast-1 and 1 S9 AP-2 [TL] attacks that hit on a 3+ with 50%+ more range

Which inflicts the most damage?

For the Points give me the Long Fangs

Njal is 270 in Terminator armor, and those Fangs need a pack leader for a total of 6 models at 90 points not 75.

I'm finding that I probably won't be taking any of the special characters. In fact for my HQ's I'll probably be running a rune priest and wolf priest. Both almost naked. They will boost my units just enough but it will still leave me with a ton of points to get models on the table.

Lowinor wrote:
And outside of specific cases like Carnifexes (who are getting screwed hard in the deal, definitely), how does it compare to a Vindicator?

Well, from what I've read so far, it disallows all saves, so it is better against anything with inv. saves or in cover. It doesn't deal wounds, so it is better against anything with multiple wounds and T6+ or Eternal Warrior. And, since a priest can join a squad, it is considerably more survivable than a vindicator.

I just don't think it's going to be game-breaking. The situations contrived to show its power assume naive placement on the opponent's part and (in the specific case of 'fexes) are just further disadvantaging a list that's on the downs due to the 5e metagame anyway.

Are you claiming that this power is actually well-designed because it doesn't hurt already powerful lists, while hosing already weak lists? That's a strange argument.


It has nothing to do with naive placement, it has to do with how geometry works. If I can pick two of your models, I can draw a line connecting them. Once I've done that, it's trivial to get a model with a bike or a drop-pod into a position on that line.

There used to be a marine power that did the 'draw a line' thing, inflicting hits on everything on a line that started at the librarian and went to the table edge. It was not easy to avoid getting multiple units hit, even knowing that the librarian had it and where he might go the next turn. If you want to have your units in a position to mutually support each other, they necessarily need to be somewhat close together. In the case of a deep-strike formation of 7 models, you can get 5 hits on a straight line from a large number of positions on the board.

Most SW players will take a Maw. 5e metagamed lists will hardly notice. The lists that do were in a bad position because of codex age anyway.

Orks are not an old codex. Daemons are not an old codex. Marines will barely notice Maw. I think most non-marine armies will suffer for it. They're coincidentally the ones that don't have psychic defenses either.

The only one I'd take is Canis. He is point for point the most effective infantry killer in the codex, if not, the entire game.

I suggest testing him against single wound infantry. The only ones I'm having trouble against are the ones that strike first - Banshees and Stealers mainly and TH/SS Terminators are hard to kill too, although they strike last, it's the damned SS that's the problem.
I'm a little skeptical however on his points cost. At 185 he's too aggressively coated. This guy can take out 10 marines at the same points cost with good rolls. Also I don't think he has an invulnerable save which is not good. If he does have one OMG!!!

Redbeard wrote:

Lowinor wrote:
And outside of specific cases like Carnifexes (who are getting screwed hard in the deal, definitely), how does it compare to a Vindicator?

Well, from what I've read so far, it disallows all saves, so it is better against anything with inv. saves or in cover. It doesn't deal wounds, so it is better against anything with multiple wounds and T6+ or Eternal Warrior. And, since a priest can join a squad, it is considerably more survivable than a vindicator.

Well, you still do get a save -- it's just based on your initiative as opposed to armor or invulnerable. A TH/SS terminator gets basically the same "save" against either attack, a 3+ invulnerable or a 4-or-under check. A tactical marine is more survivable against Maw than the Vindy cannon. Of course, there are a lot of big gribblies that will hate Maw a lot more (Carnifexes especially), but on the whole, it seems to be a wash with a Vindy cannon.

I just don't think it's going to be game-breaking. The situations contrived to show its power assume naive placement on the opponent's part and (in the specific case of 'fexes) are just further disadvantaging a list that's on the downs due to the 5e metagame anyway.

Are you claiming that this power is actually well-designed because it doesn't hurt already powerful lists, while hosing already weak lists? That's a strange argument.

I'm claiming that its actual impact on the game will be less than has been asserted by various posters here because, among other things, the single best target for the power is in a list that's already disadvantaged against mechanized marines. Furthermore, said unit is pretty likely to get a redesign in the near future, as its in the (theoretical) next codex redone.

It has nothing to do with naive placement, it has to do with how geometry works. If I can pick two of your models, I can draw a line connecting them. Once I've done that, it's trivial to get a model with a bike or a drop-pod into a position on that line.

"Trivial" overstates it.

Either:

a) You come down in a pod, have a good opportunity to lay down a line, kill a couple of high priority targets, and are then a 6"/6" model that was just close to dangerous targets

b) You're on a bike, so you don't get the good opportunity to place yourself anywhere, and have to deal with fairly easy defensive placement

Two hit two models that are in a line perpendicular to the shortest path to them, you have to move at least as much as that distance to hit both of them. When you're out of the pod and moving 6", you're not going to get particularly many juicy shots off. Even at 12", you'll be in a position where to get a two-high-priority target shot you could have charged them anyway (or be charged by them in the next turn).

And then, they still get that initiative save. Against a normal marine, the power is barely deadlier than a Vulkan-boosted Heavy Flamer (31% for the Maw, 30% for the Vulkan HF). And that's assuming there's no Psychic Hood in range. Or assorted Eldar rune trickery.

There used to be a marine power that did the 'draw a line' thing, inflicting hits on everything on a line that started at the librarian and went to the table edge. It was not easy to avoid getting multiple units hit, even knowing that the librarian had it and where he might go the next turn. If you want to have your units in a position to mutually support each other, they necessarily need to be somewhat close together. In the case of a deep-strike formation of 7 models, you can get 5 hits on a straight line from a large number of positions on the board.

And it worked off of units hit, not individual models. And I always thought it was overrated anyway. Maw is clearly superior against most non-horde targets anyway.

Most SW players will take a Maw. 5e metagamed lists will hardly notice. The lists that do were in a bad position because of codex age anyway.

Orks are not an old codex. Daemons are not an old codex. Marines will barely notice Maw. I think most non-marine armies will suffer for it. They're coincidentally the ones that don't have psychic defenses either.

Considering Orks get a better save against Maw than their armor save, I'm really not sure how scared they're going to be of it.

Lowinor wrote:
Well, you still do get a save -- it's just based on your initiative as opposed to armor or invulnerable. A TH/SS terminator gets basically the same "save" against either attack, a 3+ invulnerable or a 4-or-under check. A tactical marine is more survivable against Maw than the Vindy cannon. Of course, there are a lot of big gribblies that will hate Maw a lot more (Carnifexes especially), but on the whole, it seems to be a wash with a Vindy cannon.

But why remove two of the three steps in attacking? No roll to hit, no roll to wound (which, regardless of S v T, will fail 1 in 6 times), and go straight to an Init test? There are several armies who don't have I as high as 4. Sucks for them, for a power that travels 24", hitting ALL models along the line. 24" is a long way on a 6x4 board.

Lowinor wrote:
I'm claiming that its actual impact on the game will be less than has been asserted by various posters here because, among other things, the single best target for the power is in a list that's already disadvantaged against mechanized marines. Furthermore, said unit is pretty likely to get a redesign in the near future, as its in the (theoretical) next codex redone.

So, GW goes through the trouble of handing out Eternal Warrior, since Instant Death has become popular (to protect multi-wound creatures), and then, in one swipe, creates a power that 'removes models' a la the 3rd edition DH force weapon, ignoring Eternal Warrior and Synapse. {shakes head}. Sure, Nids are being redone, but Synapse already ignored ID, what now? You really expect GW to remember to change synapse to "ignores ID and any effect that removes models from the table"? That gives them too much credit.

I'm sure it won't be all that bad overall, considering the low model count in SW armies, but any single power that can kill multiple multi-wound creatures (cause creatures with more than 1 wound have a lot going for them), especially high T, high W, potentially regenerating creatures is pretty lame. With a capital L. Requires a lot of tactics, does that power. Sigh.

I really want to like this book. The cinematic feel was going in the right direction, but some of the specifics - this power, and that wolf character with the statis bomb heart (how many space wolves have stasis bombs in their chests nowadays?) just make me cringe.

I'll wait and see how it plays out once the book hits.

Two hit two models that are in a line perpendicular to the shortest path to them, you have to move at least as much as that distance to hit both of them. When you're out of the pod and moving 6", you're not going to get particularly many juicy shots off. Even at 12", you'll be in a position where to get a two-high-priority target shot you could have charged them anyway (or be charged by them in the next turn).

Again, you're assuming that everything in the opposing army is going to be perpendicular to the RP. That just plain isn't going to happen, and it really isn't going to happen if you have Njal and a RP around (assuming you can do that - not sure if that'd be a HQ slot duplication). Hardly anything comes in units of 2, and that's the only unit size worth trying to preserve as you suggest. Everything else probably won't be able to move far enough to pull that maneuver off.

By the way, I think we've established that this power is merely useful against marines - not deadly or broken. It's everything else that has to worry about getting at least 1 important target popped each turn.

Gwar! wrote:It's because everyone who is a real Space Wolf Player (i.e. the ones who kept using the "crap" codex) have 4 or 5 HQ Choices as we needed 3 or 4 in a decent sized game.

I've had 7 for the past 8 years My favorite combination for a 2000 point game is Ragar, Ven. Dred. and Rune Priest. I think thats definitely what I'm going to run right away.


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Wait wait wait...does this line of site psychic power take down entire units or just models it touches?

Just the people it directly passes thru

JD21290 wrote:

Actually, my goal is to first get my hands on an old Njarl to go with my Old Bjorn and Old Ragnar and Drop Pod in as many Grey Hunters as I can

old Njarl - fine
old bjorn - theres a new one?
old ragnar - only choice mate, no new one to be released (still a great model though)

Looking through the new product catalogue saddened me, we have some good models that do not need to be re-released (Logan, Rune Priest) and even a very cool Bjorn which I am still trying to get off of ebay, if only to run as a ven.

The Ragnar model though.. boy is that thing ugly. He's almost as bad as the dwarfed power armour wolf guard blisters (the comparatively large plastic arm that they come with makes me wonder what they have been getting up to in their spare time...). Why was there no new model in this department? Surely he will be a fairly commonly run HQ choice

Ragnar is an origional character, much like ezekiel, azmodai, abbadon, kharn, dante, corbulo, mephiston (list goes on for a while)

It seems that they are happy with these models and dont want to alter them.

allthough, i would say that ragnar is a very easy model to re-make from scratch, due to lack of any real refining details.
Characters like dante would require tons of GS and spare time to re-make, due to the complex nature and his ornate armour.

Ragnar is simply a decorated space pup with some old wargear and pelts.
with the new box you could easily much a much better one, and make him look alot more imposing

Korthu wrote:I thought you couldn't have duplicate HQs. So only one Rune Priest per army. I'll check at my FLGS tonight. -K

Your HQ's have to be equiped differently. You can have up to 4 Rune Priests in your army, 2 choices per slot.

MilkmanAl wrote:Again, you're assuming that everything in the opposing army is going to be perpendicular to the RP. That just plain isn't going to happen, and it really isn't going to happen if you have Njal and a RP around (assuming you can do that - not sure if that'd be a HQ slot duplication). Hardly anything comes in units of 2, and that's the only unit size worth trying to preserve as you suggest. Everything else probably won't be able to move far enough to pull that maneuver off.

Sigh.

This isn't difficult.

The entire list isn't filled with high priority targets. If it is, you deserve to lose from the start. You prioritize the important stuff, so you can keep it roughly in a line perpendicular to the offending Rune Priest, and then you really don't care much if the Crisis Suit and a Fire Warrior have to make a 5+ save or die -- compared to the Crisis Suit itself.

The power is only good if you can force high-value targets to make the save. Good playing can prevent those high-value targets from being hit more than one per shot; killing an extra ablative wound on some other squad is pretty much inconsequential in the grand scheme of things -- especially if you can force the SW player to expose his RP more to pull it off.

Cruentus wrote:But why remove two of the three steps in attacking? No roll to hit, no roll to wound (which, regardless of S v T, will fail 1 in 6 times), and go straight to an Init test? There are several armies who don't have I as high as 4.

I assume you have a strong dislike of template weapons as well? They bypass the to-hit roll, as well. And you do still have to "hit" with Maw; you have to pass a psychic test, and deal with any anti-psychic abilities the other side has.

I used to play a game [$tar Corp$, by Crunchy Frog] that had a weapon called a Vaporizer. It had a 1” x 36” [Yes a Yard Stick] for a template. It did 15 points of damage. If the 1st model had 1 hit is “Absorbed” one hit, it had 14 hits left and kept going, if the 2nd had 4 hits it did 4 hits and had 10 left and it kept going. It was only game breaking for two reasons. If you fired it you also could not fire it next turn.
1] It removed Terrain Pieces.
2] You could give every one in your army one.
I remember entire squads of 6-10 having these things. This is what happened every time.
Turn-1: The Vaporizer Squad Flies onto the board.
Turn-2: It lands and vaporizes 3-12 Figs and a Vehicle or two.
Turn-3: 1-3 Hand of God [One of the weapons similar to a man portable Earthshaker] would land on the squad and vaporize it.
The MAW will cause the same thing to happen.
Turn-1a: Njal waddles onto the board.
Turn-1b: Choose One
A] The Tau Commander feeds him a Gauss Cannon Round
B] The 4 Devo’s Feed him Las-Cannons
C] The DW lands on him
D] The Geenstealer Charge after him [This will probably be the slows way to get him]
O] Shock Attack Gun
F] Crrreeeeeeed

radiohazard wrote:One of my friends has just come up with an idea. Problem is, I don't no if I should slap him, thank him for a good idea or just walk away nodding politely.

Here goes:

He-Man - Wolf Lord.
Mounted on Thunderwolf, Frost Blade, Storm Shield, Saga of the Bear.

Basically he's given me the idea to create all the main characters from Masters of the Universe as characters from the SW and have the base troops as Eternian Guard with the Orange and Green colour scheme.

I must admit, as a modelling project, it has me intrigued.

He-Man as a wolf lord on battlecat. Man at arms as a Iron Priest, all the other characters as WGBLs???

Lord help me. I hate it when people give me ideas like this.

One of the SW heads on the sprue has been called the He-Man head.

He-Man head? Awesome.

Got a link?

Have we got any info on Canis' true pts cost?

Sorry, but 185 for that beast is waaaaay undercosted, NAY, gamebreaking is the word I'm looking for.

Lets look in detail:

1st - The Wolf Claws. We all know what they do, so I won't say it again. These are magnificent weapons that give us a choice and choice is good.

2nd - His stats. This guy is a monster. He's hitting MEQ on 3s with your choice to re-roll and killing them on 3s again with your choice to re-roll. He's tough too, MEQs need 5s to wound him, but there might not be any left to hit back. He's also got 5 attacks, 6 with additional combat weapon and 7 on a charge. So he can pretty much kill anything he wants to. But the fact that he has a rule (which I've heard is called Saga of the Savage) where he "MAY" have as many attacks as models in base contact is just OTT.

3rd - His unit type and army list changes. He's cavalry!!! Fenrisian Wolves as non scoring troops choices. They are both nuts. The Wolves will screen Canis and the other wolf cav and those wolves can be upgraded to have a 4+ save. Did I mention that they are as good as assault marines in combat and are also cavalry???

All this for a measly 185???

Ok, he has a couple of bad points.

1st he has to get to combat. Stick him in a large unit of Thunderwolves and behind a unit of Fenrisian Cyber Wolves (4+ save) and you are as well protected as an Ork Warboss with Nob Bodyguard behind some Grots.
2nd he doesn't have an invulnerable save. This hurts in combat but against shooting, just use the above method.

Seriously, even if he was 285 points, he brings to the game a huge amount of upgrades and killing power that this codex just doesn't need more of. At 185 pts, it's like buying a Bugatti Veyron for half it's retail value (£500,000) and it being the full £1 million package with no loss of power.
This guy will turn up at GTs a lot because of two reasons - for an IC he is broken and he is severely undercosted.


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He-Man head? Awesome.

Got a link?

Have we got any info on Canis' true pts cost?

Sorry, but 185 for that beast is waaaaay undercosted, NAY, gamebreaking is the word I'm looking for.

Lets look in detail:

1st - The Wolf Claws. We all know what they do, so I won't say it again. These are magnificent weapons that give us a choice and choice is good.

2nd - His stats. This guy is a monster. He's hitting MEQ on 3s with your choice to re-roll and killing them on 3s again with your choice to re-roll. He's tough too, MEQs need 5s to wound him, but there might not be any left to hit back. He's also got 5 attacks, 6 with additional combat weapon and 7 on a charge. So he can pretty much kill anything he wants to. But the fact that he has a rule (which I've heard is called Saga of the Savage) where he "MAY" have as many attacks as models in base contact is just OTT.

3rd - His unit type and army list changes. He's cavalry!!! Fenrisian Wolves as non scoring troops choices. They are both nuts. The Wolves will screen Canis and the other wolf cav and those wolves can be upgraded to have a 4+ save. Did I mention that they are as good as assault marines in combat and are also cavalry???

All this for a measly 185???

Ok, he has a couple of bad points.

1st he has to get to combat. Stick him in a large unit of Thunderwolves and behind a unit of Fenrisian Cyber Wolves (4+ save) and you are as well protected as an Ork Warboss with Nob Bodyguard behind some Grots.
2nd he doesn't have an invulnerable save. This hurts in combat but against shooting, just use the above method.

Seriously, even if he was 285 points, he brings to the game a huge amount of upgrades and killing power that this codex just doesn't need more of. At 185 pts, it's like buying a Bugatti Veyron for half it's retail value (£500,000) and it being the full £1 million package with no loss of power.
This guy will turn up at GTs a lot because of two reasons - for an IC he is broken and he is severely undercosted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll edit this post when I'm on my desktop. The option to edit rarely appears on my phone.

Canis is definitely 185 points.

radiohazard wrote:He-Man head? Awesome.

Got a link?

Awesome. Looks kinda Conan-ish to me though.

Although I have read through every page in this thread, I (might) have missed the following;

When do you choose which effect the Wolf Claw will have in a given round?

Beginning of the CC phase Steelmage.

Thanks

No problem.

That head really is He-Man. Thanks again for that.

Yeah I saw the codex today and Canis is 185 and is game breaking for the cost.

Wolf Cavalry army is definately going to be a pain to deal with.

Canis.
Wolf Priest.
Rune Priest.
Two squads of Grey Hunters in Rhino.
Large unit of Blood Claws in Crusader.
Tons of Cyber Wolves.
Three units of Thunderwolves.
Two units of Long Fangs with 2 Missile Launchers and 3 Heavy Bolters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and a lone wolf (hence known as Mowgli).

This entire argument over the Maw has brought something to mind, so in a way you guys actually made me join Dakka Dakka (thanks).

Anyway as far as I can remember, Wolf Priests can only take 1 psychic power. So that means if they take Maw, they cannot take Stormcaller. I would personally much rather have Stormcaller to give my expensive troops an extra chance to get to the enemy's lines than an attack I may get off once before being blown to bits by my enemy's lascannons. Space Wolves are a primarily assault army, and Stormcaller is a much better choice for them if they want to support their troops and give them a chance to up the enemy good in CQC.

radiohazard wrote:He-Man head? Awesome.

Got a link?

Have we got any info on Canis' true pts cost?

Sorry, but 185 for that beast is waaaaay undercosted, NAY, gamebreaking is the word I'm looking for.

Lets look in detail:

1st - The Wolf Claws. We all know what they do, so I won't say it again. These are magnificent weapons that give us a choice and choice is good.

2nd - His stats. This guy is a monster. He's hitting MEQ on 3s with your choice to re-roll and killing them on 3s again with your choice to re-roll. He's tough too, MEQs need 5s to wound him, but there might not be any left to hit back. He's also got 5 attacks, 6 with additional combat weapon and 7 on a charge. So he can pretty much kill anything he wants to. But the fact that he has a rule (which I've heard is called Saga of the Savage) where he "MAY" have as many attacks as models in base contact is just OTT.

3rd - His unit type and army list changes. He's cavalry!!! Fenrisian Wolves as non scoring troops choices. They are both nuts. The Wolves will screen Canis and the other wolf cav and those wolves can be upgraded to have a 4+ save. Did I mention that they are as good as assault marines in combat and are also cavalry???

If you want to stay away from Canis, put your units in buildings.

EDIT: add-on.
Canis may be a close combat monster, but if I'm not mistaken he does only have two wounds. Yes, he can have wolves as a screen, but they have a 6+ save don't they? So just drop an Ordinance template on them and watch the hounds fall.

Aren't Cyber Wolves something like 18 points...I don't think you will ahve too many in a list

wyomingfox wrote:Aren't Cyber Wolves something like 18 points...I don't think you will ahve too many in a list

Grey hunters used to be 18 (21 with grenades) so I think we will manage

As a long time Wolf player, I refuse to use Maw. I'm generally not a fan of psykers or other "weird" stuff in attack roles in general. I play against Nids fairly often, and it's just unsporting to take out up to two Carnifexes and anything inbetween with one dinky psychic test.

I look forward to using Bjorn though. Dreads as HQ's have always been one of my favorite things about the Wolves, and having an extra survivable dread the cost of a land raider seems good to me. Now if only a new Ragnar Blackmane model was part of the first wave...

Hrm, something that occurred to me today.

Canis looks to be on a 60mm base. What size base are the Thunderwolf Cavalry on?

Most Likely 60mm As well.

Gwar! wrote:Most Likely 60mm As well.

Ack. That's going to make them horribly unwieldy, if true.

Lowinor wrote:Hrm, something that occurred to me today.

Canis looks to be on a 60mm base. What size base are the Thunderwolf Cavalry on?

No models, so no clue. But I'm assuming 60mm, similar to canis.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:This entire argument over the Maw has brought something to mind, so in a way you guys actually made me join Dakka Dakka (thanks).

Anyway as far as I can remember, Wolf Priests can only take 1 psychic power. So that means if they take Maw, they cannot take Stormcaller. I would personally much rather have Stormcaller to give my expensive troops an extra chance to get to the enemy's lines than an attack I may get off once before being blown to bits by my enemy's lascannons. Space Wolves are a primarily assault army, and Stormcaller is a much better choice for them if they want to support their troops and give them a chance to up the enemy good in CQC.

You're wrong they choose two powers. They can also upgrade and use two powers a turn.

Unless you are Njarl, then you just WTFBBQPWNSAUCE everything

I believe Canis has three wounds. I can remember the rest of his stats, but not wounds. Any confirmation would be great.

Ok... Thunderwolves.

These guys have rending and can have SS. Think of them as Terminator Cavalry. Apparently they can have TH/SS too. At 50 pts base these guys are a bargain. I heard they are 0-1 though unless you take Canis who gives you an additional unit.

I'm having a serious thought of making a Space Wolf Cavalry based army. Everything on Thunderwolves, couple of GH in rhino for scoring units, lots of Cyber Wolves and some long fangs.

This sounds really appealing to me.

To head off misinformation:
Cyberwolves are 1 per unit of Fenrisian Wolves and double the cost of the wolf that's to be cyberized.
Thunderwolf Cav are not 0-1, Canis or no.

radiohazard wrote:I believe Canis has three wounds. I can remember the rest of his stats, but not wounds. Any confirmation would be great.

Ok... Thunderwolves.

These guys have rending and can have SS. Think of them as Terminator Cavalry. Apparently they can have TH/SS too. At 50 pts base these guys are a bargain. I heard they are 0-1 though unless you take Canis who gives you an additional unit.

I'm having a serious thought of making a Space Wolf Cavalry based army. Everything on Thunderwolves, couple of GH in rhino for scoring units, lots of Cyber Wolves and some long fangs.

This sounds really appealing to me.

TW cav are fast attack, with 1-5 in a squad, and not 0-1. You can take 15 of them in a normal list. Taking Canis makes them count as troops. So there's your scoring units.

Thunderwolves as scoring units???

That = win.

Got to include GH or BC though. They're too good to miss.

Wait wait. "Count as Troops" or "Scoring Unit"? Big Difference. Counts as Troops means 6 Scoring and 3 Non Scoring Wolf Packs in an army. Scoring unit means 3 Scoring Fast Attack Wolf Pack.

Wrong.


Fenrisian wolves count as Troops if Canis is in the army. TWC DO NOT count as Troops. Unless its listed somewhere other than his section, their section, or the army list, which I doubt.



Clay

The Wolf King:

Fenrisian wolves count as troops in any army that includes Canis Wolfborn.

They don't count as scoring anyway. "Fenrisian Wolves may not claim objectives under any circumstances."

Exactly like I said. TWC are not Troops, and Canis doesnt make them so. He makes the units of Fenrisian wolves troops.


Clay

BDJV wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:This entire argument over the Maw has brought something to mind, so in a way you guys actually made me join Dakka Dakka (thanks).

Anyway as far as I can remember, Wolf Priests can only take 1 psychic power. So that means if they take Maw, they cannot take Stormcaller. I would personally much rather have Stormcaller to give my expensive troops an extra chance to get to the enemy's lines than an attack I may get off once before being blown to bits by my enemy's lascannons. Space Wolves are a primarily assault army, and Stormcaller is a much better choice for them if they want to support their troops and give them a chance to up the enemy good in CQC.

You're wrong they choose two powers. They can also upgrade and use two powers a turn.

Ok then, I stand corrected. So is Stormcaller a passive power, or does it require a psychic test? Not everyone is going to spring for the 2 psychic attacks per turn, so they'll have to pick and choose - defense for their oh-so-expensive troops or attack the damn Carnifex.

And like Brother SRM, I would be reluctant to use Maw personally, just because I like to give my opponents a sporting chance.

Oh man, I read through the codex today, and it was so intense. I think my favorite aspect is going to be Arjac Stonefist, what with his rerolls to hit, his ranged attack with the Thunder Hammer, and the Storm Shield that gives him an extra attack in close combat.

after reading the Sw codex and rockijng in the fetal position after looking at my doublewing da arm, Im hoping that when Gw finally get around to it that my Grey knights Supposed best of the best in the universe become he new super cheese

(but then I dunno if I can wait till 2020)

I wished they would of kept the 13th company or at least amp up the rules so that you can take a squad of wulfen and count them as elites. I just wait until I see the codex for myself...

I understand people's disappointment over the 13th Company not being included but really, how could you not expect them to remove them? They weren't even in the main dex just the supplement, if they shave things out of the main dexs for some armies what makes you think they'd save a supplement? They didn't do it for the LatD or Ulthwe.

I am going to be making 13th company conversions to use as my TWC.

the rules make them suitably awesome for this.

Is there any more info on the Lone Wolf guy that seems pretty cool.

Overall reading the rumours it looks like it lives up to the hype of making them semi unique space marines.


Be interesting if Blood angels and Dark Angels go the same treatment.

Well Hollis, all I can remember is that he has Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain and the Saga of the Beast Slayer. He's weapons skill 5 with two wounds and costs twenty points base. He can take pretty much any weapon in the dex.

The Wulfen would be super easy to represent using the rules for either the Fenrisian Wolves or Thunderwolves for counts as.

Jack

BrotherStynier wrote:Well Hollis, all I can remember is that he has Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain and the Saga of the Beast Slayer. He's weapons skill 5 with two wounds and costs twenty points base. He can take pretty much any weapon in the dex.

I was hoping he wouldnt take up a FOC slot or you could take multiples as one choice. Do they get any kind of infiltrate or scout?



The Wolf book looks more fluffy and fun than the Marine Codex really I still have some space wolf stuff from 2nd edition so I was wanting to make a "scout" force type with a Leader w the Stalker Saga and some other stuff.

Space Wolves: The new Eldar?

This is going to be completely ridiculous.

And of course my friend plays Space Wolves. I can't wait to get killed by the Maw every game. Sounds so exciting.

Hollismason wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Well Hollis, all I can remember is that he has Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain and the Saga of the Beast Slayer. He's weapons skill 5 with two wounds and costs twenty points base. He can take pretty much any weapon in the dex.

I was hoping he wouldnt take up a FOC slot or you could take multiples as one choice. Do they get any kind of infiltrate or scout?



The Wolf book looks more fluffy and fun than the Marine Codex really I still have some space wolf stuff from 2nd edition so I was wanting to make a "scout" force type with a Leader w the Stalker Saga and some other stuff.

Well if IRC he does take up an Elites choices so you could take on of him, a squad of Scouts and Wolf Guard, I don't know if they get infiltrate or scout it may be an option you can give them.

The Stealthy approach sounds like a good one, it's one of the ideas I have for my force as well.

It's okay, it's not like you'll be spending your Elites slots on Terminators, since they'll be Troops and all.

Damn , I was hoping they would be a choice of 1 to 3 or somethin.


Wolf Scouts seem kick ass that is cool.


Wolf Lord w/ Stalker or whatev is cool too.

The Lone Wolf (Tarzan or Mowgli) is pretty dang good for his points. He's going in my army.

Can all ICs in this codex ride Thunderwolves?

(Rubs hands in scheming glee).

Oh its a special characteR?

Hollismason wrote:Oh its a special characteR?

The lone wolf is not a independent character or special character, he is just infact an elite slot. I believe people have just given them affectionate names.

And i believe all of the generic special characters (wolf lord, wolf priest etc) are able to be mounted on a thunderwolf. Not 100% though, only saw the dex briefly last week.

yeah,
Is the new SpaceWolf codex SpaceHulk compatable?

Panic...

Panic wrote:yeah,
Is the new SpaceWolf codex SpaceHulk compatable?

Panic...

not sure what you mean by this. technically, the space hulk minis are blood angels. if you mean can you play the exact models in the space hulk game as a space wolf army WYSIWIG then the answer is yes (which is what i plan to do with my two sets of termies). the space wolves can customize each individual model so mixing and matching the figs in the space hulk squads into a wolf loganwing army is easily done (you have to take logan grimnar to make the termies troops).

yeah,
I'm just finding out the level of wolf / space corridor compatability before I consider making a 'why I'm not buying Spolfs thread'...

Panic...

I already had all my Space Hulk termies converted to be wolfy before the actual release date, (got the box on the 3rd, assembled all the models on that day, did these conversions on the 4th)

the little blood drop emblems on the ends of the chains can be carefully cut into the shape of wolf-teeth, the blood drop emblems in with wings can easily be shaved down then add a wolf-skull to it (its a motif I have all over my space wolves, especially my jump infantry, who I havnt used since 2nd edition) the drop pod emblems can be carefully shaved off their backings, then carfully rebent to fit on a shoulderpad, glued down, then greenstuff the edges to fill the small gap. Also, wolf tails are realllllly easy to add everywhere, and wolf pelts are not hard to do.

The Rune Priest looks very tasty. Nice idea for a good use of good models

Good work Demo.

Wow....with this new SW release of new models & rules. This just nailed the coffin for Dark Angels & put them 6 feet under then having the puppies pissing on their grave to mark their territory.

All DA are now is vanilla marines. They are no different from U/Marines or smurfs except color scheme. Don't even want to play my favorite army now.

Just want to burn my DA book, and go back to 3rd pretend this nightmare never happened.

The DA models are cartoony as hell or a joke. The rules downright got shafted.

agh.. don't even want to bother to say the rest.

I will never understand the DA whiners. If you like the DA, you will use them regardless. Us puppies has poor rules and overcosted armies for years, but we never complained, at least not to the degree of the DA players

-shrug-

I have been a SW player for about 20 years. I have been playing DA for about a year. I have only a few complainds about the DA, but those little things. Scouts are Elite, no Flamers with Assualt squads, but that not my whine. The DA had the Deathwing, that if played well can end a game in one or 2 turns, can field a entinly Fearless.
-Deathwing and Raven Wing are fearless!
I like what they have done Space Puppies [Look at that pic of Canis].

Anpu42 wrote:Scouts are Elite.

So why do you play Space Wolves?

Gwar! wrote:I will never understand the DA whiners. If you like the DA, you will use them regardless. Us puppies has poor rules and overcosted armies for years, but we never complained, at least not to the degree of the DA players

-shrug-

Exactly! I relish the challenge! I even try to pit my Wolf Lord against the strongest opponents available (Chaos Lords, a Hive Tyrant, the Nightbringer on a couple occasions and I actually held my own against it for 3 turns!). But yeah, the rules can give you an advantage, but the skilled player can win regardless.

Hmm. I liken this to what CSM went to from 3.5 to 5th. BLAND and no good reason Daemons and C:CSM can't use same daemons/gear.

All the "uniqueness" that BA/DA/BT/SW had have now been merged and made better options in C:Ultrasmurph.

White scars > Ravenwing
Lysander/SW Termies > Deathwing

Like I said earlier, I'll try the new rules for Wolfwing v Deathwing and see what plays better.

<--- Not bitter. Just wanting GW to stop the charade and refer to my sig.

The space wolf codex isnt really bland it seems to have a bunch of interesting options and playstyles that differ from normal marines.

Uriels_Flame wrote:<--- Not bitter. Just wanting GW to stop the charade and refer to my sig.

Quick! Lets put all Xenos in one Codex! That will make the game better! Actually, sod codexes! Lets put all the Armies into one book!

Oh wait, they tried that, in 3rd edition. it didn't work out too well.

Uriels_Flame wrote:Hmm. I liken this to what CSM went to from 3.5 to 5th. BLAND and no good reason Daemons and C:CSM can't use same daemons/gear.

I find that comparison to be grossly inappropriate. What have the Space Wolves lost coming into this dex? One thing far as I can tell, the Leman Russ and really I don't see the need for the complaining. Do you want more Lemans out there then there all ready is since the IG came out? I don't. Don't mention the 13th Company either, sure they were cool, but they were their own separate gig, like the Lost and the Damned.

Uriels_Flame wrote:Hmm. I liken this to what CSM went to from 3.5 to 5th. BLAND and no good reason Daemons and C:CSM can't use same daemons/gear.

This is in no way like that. After reading the codex today it is totally full of character and flavour if you can't make a themed army out of space wolves then there is probably something wrong with you, the new codex is definately nothing like the mauling CSM received in that transition.

Gwar! wrote:Actually, sod codexes! Lets put all the Armies into one book!

Oh wait, they tried that, in 3rd edition. it didn't work out too well.

It wasn't that it didn't work, it was the fact they'd changed the rules between 2nd and 3rd so much, that the 2nd Edition Codexes couldn't be used anymore.

The rulebook based army lists were always intended to be a temporary measure until your army's Codex was released. I would argue that these basic army lists weren't that different from the "slimline" 3rd edition Codexes anyway.

Where it fell down was when you needed the 3rd Ed rulebook for some of the gun stats for the Ork army (like shootas). Thus when they moved to 4th, the gun stats for Orks didn't technically exist until the 4th Ed Ork Codex was released.

Gwar! wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:Scouts are Elite.

So why do you play Space Wolves?

This was a SM complaint. I had a themed Army, The Imperial Tigers. All of my Sergeants and most of the Characters had Lighting Claws; I also had 3 TAC Squads and 3 Scout Squads. Then the 5thed SM came out. So to the choice of the scouts of the LC so I went with DA so I could at least give my Terminator sergeants LC.
As far as my puppies, I have one scout squad and will making a second and so I am ok with the Wolf Scout elite.
Different Armies, Different Play Stiles

The point was, the things that made the sub-chapters unique are now incorporated into the main C:SM book.

Just like the cult theme went away from 3.5 - 5 Chaos.

Maybe I'll think differently if/when all 4 sub-chapters get their own Codex - then they can be compared back to C:Smurph and we'll see. As it stands right now, they just need to get DA/BA/BT out and we can compare.

Any penalty to not upholding the oaths under sagas?

Flashman wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Actually, sod codexes! Lets put all the Armies into one book!

Oh wait, they tried that, in 3rd edition. it didn't work out too well.

It wasn't that it didn't work, it was the fact they'd changed the rules between 2nd and 3rd so much, that the 2nd Edition Codexes couldn't be used anymore.

The rulebook based army lists were always intended to be a temporary measure until your army's Codex was released. I would argue that these basic army lists weren't that different from the "slimline" 3rd edition Codexes anyway.

Where it fell down was when you needed the 3rd Ed rulebook for some of the gun stats for the Ork army (like shootas). Thus when they moved to 4th, the gun stats for Orks didn't technically exist until the 4th Ed Ork Codex was released.

Sort of on topic, I always thought Chapter Approved worked well to solve this issue. They released necrons this way, deathwatch, and it was a way to keep current armies fresh and interesting, and made WD worth buying.

It was the first thing I asked for when I came back to the game after almost 5 years. The clerk looked at me in confusion and said "Whats a chapter approved?". Shame they did away with it.

SgtDavi: Nope. Feel free to completely ignore. And then be crucified by the fluff bunnies ;-)

No, there is no penalty for not upholding the Oath part of the Saga.

I think the description even tells you that they have no game mechanic unless you self impose them. Most of them are for future battles after that one anyway.

So basically, if you dont wound/kill a MC, then you lose the one that helps you versus them. Stuff like that.


Clay

Primarch wrote:No, there is no penalty for not upholding the Oath part of the Saga.

I think the description even tells you that they have no game mechanic unless you self impose them. Most of them are for future battles after that one anyway.

So basically, if you dont wound/kill a MC, then you lose the one that helps you versus them. Stuff like that.


Clay

So, wait. They gave us a MASSIVE ADVANTAGE with LITTLE TO NO DISADVANTAGE.

Sounds like "We stand alone" all over again.

I love it!

Well from what I remember, you pay points for that saga...so it isn't a freebie.

Oh, they certainly cost points, not free at all. Just saying, there is no downside to them really.


Clay

Why should there be a downside if you pay for it?

game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

warboss wrote:game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

Yeah, cause 3rd edition SW codex was soooooooooooooooooo broken. Not like the 3.5 ed Chaos Codex at all!

Gwar! wrote:

Uriels_Flame wrote:<--- Not bitter. Just wanting GW to stop the charade and refer to my sig.

Quick! Lets put all Xenos in one Codex! That will make the game better! Actually, sod codexes! Lets put all the Armies into one book!

Oh wait, they tried that, in 3rd edition. it didn't work out too well.

I thought people actually liked those lists, because they let people play with what they had and were surprisingly balanced until the 'real' books came along?

Gwar! wrote:

Primarch wrote:No, there is no penalty for not upholding the Oath part of the Saga.

I think the description even tells you that they have no game mechanic unless you self impose them. Most of them are for future battles after that one anyway.

So basically, if you dont wound/kill a MC, then you lose the one that helps you versus them. Stuff like that.


Clay

So, wait. They gave us a MASSIVE ADVANTAGE with LITTLE TO NO DISADVANTAGE.

Sounds like "We stand alone" all over again.

I love it!

It's not as if there's little to no disadvantage. There's NO disadvantage, but your'e paying for it in points so it evens out.

Gwar! wrote:

warboss wrote:game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

Yeah, cause 3rd edition SW codex was soooooooooooooooooo broken. Not like the 3.5 ed Chaos Codex at all!

yes, it was finally unseated from it's throne of cheddar by the chaos codex but it was #1 for a few years before and #2 for a few after. complete cheese or not, i'll be using it for my blood angels (especially my new hulk termies with loganwing). FOR RUSS! FOUR CHEESE! FOR FENRIS!! HOOOOOH!

gwar, did you play in the heady days of 3rd edition? if so, you should remember the power of several HIDDEN powerfists in almost every wolf squad that were DISCOUNTED compared to every other marine (although they did, in all honest pay full price for frag grenades). and countercharge in the days of purposely "winging" an enemy unit with a charge instead of moving head first directly at them? etc.etc.etc. i'm not saying the 2000 codex is overpowered now but it sure was when it came out and for years after.

warboss wrote:gwar, did you play in the heady days of 3rd edition?

I have played since about the age of 11, Space Wolves exclusively since I started Playing (10 years or so).
Yes, I remember the good ol' Rhinorush zomfgpowerfist days, but lets face it, last 5 or 6 years they have been lacking in almost every way.

Gwar! wrote:

warboss wrote:gwar, did you play in the heady days of 3rd edition?

I have played since about the age of 11, Space Wolves exclusively since I started Playing (10 years or so).
Yes, I remember the good ol' Rhinorush zomfgpowerfist days, but lets face it, last 5 or 6 years they have been lacking in almost every way.

and the only things we werent lacking in (new C:SM toys, cheap powerfists and cheap stormshields) had to be spammed in order to be marginally effective.

warboss wrote:game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

Paying for it is the downside :S

Gwar! wrote:I have played since about the age of 11, Space Wolves exclusively since I started Playing (10 years or so).
Yes, I remember the good ol' Rhinorush zomfgpowerfist days, but lets face it, last 5 or 6 years they have been lacking in almost every way.

4e SW played quite well as a Drop Pod army, it was my primary army for most of 4e.

warboss wrote:Gwar, did you play in the heady days of 3rd edition?

Well I played back in the heady days of 3rd, back when TMC were IC and could single out SW hidden PF in CC and whack them dead before thay had a chance to inflict any damage back. Or back when one lash whip hormie mutant could reduce all enemy models attacks by 1 that were within 3". Back when hormies were good and didn't have to be chaporoned. Yep, those were good days.

wyomingfox wrote:

warboss wrote:game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

Paying for it is the downside :S

My thoughts exactly.

Rated G wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

warboss wrote:game balance, although that's not much of an issue for wolves in 2nd, 3rd, and now 5th edition.

Paying for it is the downside :S

My thoughts exactly.

so what is the "cost" of all the benefits that grey hunters get for instance? i could reason that combat tactics is traded for countercharge and combat squads for acute senses. the second special counterbalances the lack of a heavy in this assault oriented force (i almost never fire the heavy in my tact squads). so, we're left with the fact that they get 3x the attacks of a tactical squad marine when they're charged and 50% more when they do they charging, for which they pay... 0 points! yes, that's right, you actually get to spend no additional points for having an additional benefit! i wish my airline and credit card bonus miles/points worked like that! space wolves were and apparently are the darlings of someone at GW HQ so they'll always be a cut above regular marines when their codex is released and for a few years later. i'll soon be a space wolf rules player; i just have no misconceptions about why i'll be using their rules.

edit: i'm basing the cost of the tact marine at 15 points due to subtracting 15 points for the mandatory vet serg upgrade from the tact squad in the current marine codex (since wolves don't HAVE to take a vet serg equiv)

warboss wrote:So what is the "cost" of all the benefits that grey hunters get for instance?

Grey Hunters were overpriced at 18 points and as you said:

They trade Combat Tactics for Counter Charge and Acute Senses

They trade a special gun slot for heavy gun slot

So at this point they have an extra CCW which is worth 1 point each and they cost 1 point less than C:SM. Net -20 points cheaper per 10 man squad. But they don't get a free Veteran Sergaent which use to be worth 15 points. So I am only seeing a -5 point spread.

wyomingfox wrote:

warboss wrote:So what is the "cost" of all the benefits that grey hunters get for instance?

Grey Hunters were overpriced at 18 points and as you said:

They trade Combat Tactics for Counter Charge and Acute Senses

They trade a special gun slot for heavy gun slot

So at this point they have an extra CCW which is worth 1 point each and they cost 1 point less than C:SM. Net -20 points cheaper per 10 man squad. But they don't get a free Veteran Sergaent which use to be worth 15 points. So I am only seeing a -5 point spread.

Don't forget Combat Squads.

After working through the numbers myself, the advantage points-wise that GH have is that they aren't forced to take the sergeant upgrade. Otherwise it's pretty much a wash; 155 for 10 marines with two specials vs. 170 for 10 marines plus sergeant, special, and heavy.

Honestly, if you look at whole list synergies, what you should be comparing is the (effective) +1A vs. Combat Tactics; Combat Tactics is very good for an army that's shooty overall (and can be traded for things like twin-linked melta/flamer/TH or Outflank)

wyomingfox wrote:

warboss wrote:So what is the "cost" of all the benefits that grey hunters get for instance?

Grey Hunters were overpriced at 18 points and as you said:

They trade Combat Tactics for Counter Charge and Acute Senses

They trade a special gun slot for heavy gun slot

So at this point they have an extra CCW which is worth 1 point each and they cost 1 point less than C:SM. Net -20 points cheaper per 10 man squad. But they don't get a free Veteran Sergaent which use to be worth 15 points. So I am only seeing a -5 point spread.

there's nothing "free" about that veteran sergeant, you pay for him whether you want him or not (i wouldn't if i had the choice). let's compare apples to apples:

5 man grey hunter squad with free flamer and WG upgrade (so that takes the vet serg out of the equation): 5x15+18=93pts
5 man tact squad with "free" sergeant plus additional marine (for equal total of 6): 90+16=106pts

so, to recap, for -13 points, a space wolf squad gets 1.5x to 3x the punch in close combat attacks and a free flamer (with the other special rules supposedly equaled out). does the marine situation get a bit better at a full squad of 10 (max rhino rush squad size)? yes, but they're still not equal.

9*greyhunters plus free flamer plus WG (no upgrades) = 9*15+18=153
5 man tact squad with vet serg plus 5 additional marines including free missle launcher and free flamer = 90+5*16=170

traditionally in tact squads, a heavy bolter costs 5pts and a missle launcher costs 10points so the difference between the two squads adjusted for the most likely (and expensive) free heavy weapon is 7points in favor of the wolves. so to recap, at 10 men, the wolves "pay" -7 points for 1.5 to 3 times the close combat ability with all other costs accounted for. while i agree some (not all) of the special characters in the wolf army are overcosted, their regular units gain plenty of benefits for little to no (or in this case) negative cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lowinor wrote:Don't forget Combat Squads.

After working through the numbers myself, the advantage points-wise that GH have is that they aren't forced to take the sergeant upgrade. Otherwise it's pretty much a wash; 155 for 10 marines with two specials vs. 170 for 10 marines plus sergeant, special, and heavy.

Honestly, if you look at whole list synergies, what you should be comparing is the (effective) +1A vs. Combat Tactics; Combat Tactics is very good for an army that's shooty overall (and can be traded for things like twin-linked melta/flamer/TH or Outflank)

i'm not forgetting it, i was just misquoted on the post you read. i said combat tactics = countercharge and acute senses = combat squads. i think countercharge (especially for an army that excels in CC like the wolves) is easily worth the value of fleet/stubborn/etc that you can opt out for with combat tactics. both acute senses and combat squads are rarely used in my experience so they're about equal. does that mean noone uses them every time and feels that it's awesome? nope, just not in my area. people prefer to have larger squads (rhino sized) where i play. i'm the only person in my two FLGS that has used combat squads in the past 6 months roughly (and that's only because my BA army was made up in the 3rd edition days of 5 man las plas tact squads and i don't feel like painting more grunts).

My codex SM have ten twin-linked multi-meltas, seven twin-linked heavy flamers, two twin-linked meltaguns, one twin-linked flamer, six heavy bolters and three autocannons in 1500 points. Against assault troops I can throw a decent hero and a bunch of Dreadnoughts.

I'm curious if a couple 200p T4 psykers and some economically priced BP&CCW&Bolter Marines are really brokenly overpowered compared to what we already have. According to this thread it sure seems so, but I'll let someone else pass judgment.

Therion wrote:My codex SM have ten twin-linked multi-meltas, seven twin-linked heavy flamers, two twin-linked meltaguns, one twin-linked flamer, six heavy bolters and three autocannons in 1500 points.

I'm curious if a couple 200p T4 psykers and some economically priced BP&CCW&Bolter Marines are really brokenly overpowered compared to what we already have. According to this thread it sure seems so, but I'll let someone else pass judgment.

I think I qualify as "someone else"

so I judge that this codex has not been released, and thus cannot be considered overpowered, as it is not currently legal to play.

Therion wrote:My codex SM have ten twin-linked multi-meltas, seven twin-linked heavy flamers, two twin-linked meltaguns, one twin-linked flamer, six heavy bolters and three autocannons in 1500 points. Against assault troops I can throw a decent hero and a bunch of Dreadnoughts.

I'm curious if a couple 200p T4 psykers and some economically priced BP&CCW&Bolter Marines are really brokenly overpowered compared to what we already have. According to this thread it sure seems so, but I'll let someone else pass judgment.

pm me your 1500pt army list. i'm curious to see it (obviously it'll have the salamander IC from all that twin linking).

My general thought is that SW gives you some cheap barebones basic troops, but the ability to spend a lot of points on upgrades. And striking the right balance is critical.

For example, 10 Grey Hunters with a rhino and 2 special weapons will come in under 200 points (depending on load, it varies by like 10 points). Now, each unit can take a Wolf Totem, a Power Weapon or Power Fist, a Plasma Pistol, and/or a model with Mark of the Wulfen. Plus, you can attach a Wolf Guard – but lose the second special weapon. Now, if you totally bling out the squad (say, Wolf Totem, Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol, MotW, and a WG with Powerfist and combi-weapon – to fill the role of a second special), you’re adding about 80 points to the cost of the unit. So, you can basically have 2 blinged-out units or 3 bare-bone units.

Similar with Wolf Guard. They’re 18 points base. 15 points to get TDA, Stormbolter and Power Weapon. Can upgrade to Powerfist, chainfist, thunderhammer, wolf claw, storm shield, combi-weapons, etc. But, it costs (potentially) a lot of points for the really good upgrades (especially dual claws or a storm shield and anything). Do you want 2 squads of barebones WG in TDA, or 1 squad of blinged out WG? Or 1 squad with some bling and a few basic WG to serve as bullet catchers?

I won’t be at all surprised if the ‘power lists’ all involve some form of Spam. Spam works in 40k. It gives you redundancy. And, in any point-based system, there’s always going to be something that’s the “best” for the points cost, so you might as well load up on it.

And everyone keeps mentioning on how GHs get Counterattack, Acute Senses, and an extra CCW in exchange for Combat Tactics and Combat Squads. How much does Acute Senses help GHs? The maximum range on their weaponry is 24 inches, and since they’re generally a close-quarters army, most of the time it will be 12 inches (or less for a flamer). So, most of the time, Acute Senses helps in the 1 in 6 times you roll a 4 or less on 2d6 (assuming that you’re outside 9 inches, if you’re at 6 to 9 inches, it’s only a 1 in 36 chance of bricking the roll). Who does Acute Senses benefit? Long Fangs for certain. Wolf Guard with CMLs too. Do Long Fangs get Counterattack? They didn’t in the 3ed codex. I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t now either. And, even if they do, if they are using that ability, it means they’re in melee and not doing their job – shooting stuff. That leaves Wolf Guard, who could get a lot of benefit out of both abilites. Walk up with your two CMLs, firing, have Counterattack handy for when you get assaulted. And other than CMLs, Wolf Guard weapons are under 24-inches with the rest of their ranges (iirc). So, for the times you roll poorly with them, it does help, but if you roll an 8 or higher (5 of 12 times this happens), you’re not going to re-roll it. Do armored vehicles get Acute Senses? If they do, it’d be nice, but I don’t think that they do (but, don’t have the book in front of me to check) since they’re the same point cost as C:SM.

While the extra CCW, Counterattack, and Acute Senses are nice, I don’t think it’s better than having combat squads, just different. Combat tactics lets you have a heavy weapon squad claim an objective (which neither GHs nor BCs can sport a heavy weapon, so if they’re sitting on an objective in my DZ, they’re not helping a whole lot), while the other half of the squad (the Vet Sgt and special weapon) ride around looking for something else to shoot.

warboss wrote:

Therion wrote:My codex SM have ten twin-linked multi-meltas, seven twin-linked heavy flamers, two twin-linked meltaguns, one twin-linked flamer, six heavy bolters and three autocannons in 1500 points. Against assault troops I can throw a decent hero and a bunch of Dreadnoughts.

I'm curious if a couple 200p T4 psykers and some economically priced BP&CCW&Bolter Marines are really brokenly overpowered compared to what we already have. According to this thread it sure seems so, but I'll let someone else pass judgment.

pm me your 1500pt army list. i'm curious to see it (obviously it'll have the salamander IC from all that twin linking).

Interesting optimization problem.

I've come up with:

Vulkan He'Stan
Ironclad Dreadnought, Meltagun/Heavy Flamer
Dreadnought, Multi-Melta/Heavy Flamer
Tactical Squad, 10 marines, Multi-Melta, Flamer
Tactical Squad, 10 marines, Multi-Melta, Meltagun
2x Land Speeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
2x Land Speeder, Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
3x Attack Bike, Multi-Melta
3x Predator, Autocannon/Heavy Bolter sponsons

Fits those numbers at 1480 points, albeit a "bunch" of Dreads being two instead of the three I was trying to fit in.

Hrm.

if that's it then i'd be happy to play against it. for two thirds of all games (mission wise), i'd only have to destroy the two scoring units to at worst tie the game. if he combat squads them, then 4 but they'll individually be easier to take out.

First of all that's not my list, and second of all two/four scoring units are not easy to take out if they're played passively and not shoved into the front in the early stages of the game. We're digressing an awful lot from the actual topic of discussion, but I can tell you that the 1.5K SM lists that I like are the following, and I'm pretty sure they'll give the SW a run for their money:

-Vulkan
-2 Dreads
-2x 10 SM in Rhinos
-6 Speeders
-3 Predators

and

-Vulkan
-3 Dreads
-2x 10 SM in Rhinos
-1x 5 Stormtroopers in a Rhino
-3 Speeders
-3 Predators

Therion wrote:First of all that's not my list, and second of all two/four scoring units are not easy to take out if they're played passively and not shoved into the front in the early stages of the game. We're digressing an awful lot from the actual topic of discussion, but I can tell you that the 1.5K SM lists that I like are the following, and I'm pretty sure they'll give the SW a run for their money:

no one thought it was yours, he was just guessing due to the size and weapons loadout you posted (and he was pretty darn close too). i'm sure they would give SW a run for their money as long as they didn't drop pod into your deployment zone.

i think wolves in general are weakest at long range with the rumors (pretty much confirmed at this point) from the new codex but that's not to say that they're actually weak. they lose out on the tactical squad heavies (minimal loss there as tact squads tend to move to be effective except for 1 or 2 that claim objectives) and attack bike units. i think they'll be most effective in the old rhino rush and now drop pod plop versions so that they get into rapid fire/charge range. with their counter attack rules, even if you prefer style wise to shoot rather than charge others, they'll still be a pain for those charging them. now that i think about it, they'll be the only chapter than ACTS in game like the marines do in the fluff (books, novels, comics, etc).

Space Wolves have ALWAYS been Close/Mid Range and have always excelled at Mechanised and Drop Pod Assaults. All this codex has done is tweak things about and bring it up to standard with the new codices.

thanks for agreeing. now, if only i knew the magic of sig programming...