I'm all for seeing them as a unit, perhaps a special retinue for Chaplains or Sanguinary Priests. Having them in every single battle is just as unfluffy as never having them. 5th edition codices have seen the end of 0-1 and required units so presumably they'll end up selectable rather then required.


Jack

I think i remember reading somewhere the the DC were jervis' favorite pet unit, that he created the idea of them and loves them like his own child.

I seriously doubt they will suck.

I agree that *always* having them is just as unfluffy as *never* having them.

A Chaplain retinue is a good idea. It puts them in the HQ slot and wouldn't take an Elites spot. As mentioned, something like Chaplain and 5 DC retinue and +1 per Tac/Dev/Assalt squad. It could also be setup so if you take a Chaplain you must take the 5 man DC retinue.

Blood Angel Chaplains are primarily there to shepherd the Death Company, correct? So having a Chaplain on his own wouldn't make much thematic sense. I'm in favor of the Death Company and Chaplain forming a unit with minimum # of members, + more that can be bought depending on how many other eligible units you've taken. That way there isn't any equipment/ transport issues, each squad doesn't have to be doomed to lose a member, squad sizes are predictable and combat squadding is still possible, and the Blood Angels get to keep their signature unit with it's signature unit size method.

Railguns wrote:Blood Angel Chaplains are primarily there to shepherd the Death Company, correct? So having a Chaplain on his own wouldn't make much thematic sense. I'm in favor of the Death Company and Chaplain forming a unit with minimum # of members, + more that can be bought depending on how many other eligible units you've taken. That way there isn't any equipment/ transport issues, each squad doesn't have to be doomed to lose a member, squad sizes are predictable and combat squadding is still possible, and the Blood Angels get to keep their signature unit with it's signature unit size method.

I say make them a normal unit purchase (with a high model per unit limit if you like) and not bother with any sort of special rules for building the squad. Again player choices are neither fluffy nor unfluffy, and the rules should be balanced on their own merits, and special unit construction rules add only needless complexity.

Jack

There is the issue of keeping the character of the unit. The silly unit composition rules are a direct representation of the nature of the Blood Angels curse; that the eve before battle when they are in meditation, some of them are overcome with visions of their Primarch's death. Taking that away would degrade the character of the Blood Angels. It isn't like we aren't already playing a complicated game. I'm not asking for 2nd edition here.

Yeah I heard about a " 'dex "

I just read a book about the blood angels, i kinda of want a BA army now

I know this is on the edge of heresy.
Set them up like Old Wolf Guard, 1 Elite Choice gives you 3-10 that you can break into smaller uses or attach them to other squads. Every so many give you a “Special Weapon”. Then if you take Character “B” you can take them as Troop Choices.

My idea would be to count them as the Chaplain ( or corbulo's) retinue. minimum unit 5, then allow the player to add +1 extra death company for every infantry or jump infantry unit in the army. Jump packs and special melee weapons can then be paid for like a veteran squad (perhaps). Keeps the unit optional and means each model is paid for, but ties it into the existing fluff.

Thats just how i'd do it though.

I would like for a chaplain to automatically be part of the DC. So you would automatically have a chaplain if you field the DC. I also think DC should have two wounds per Marine and be able to take wargear such as power weapons and power fists. Finally I think the DC should count as 0 killpoints.

G

(Wishlisting on my part)

Death Company

Stats: Same as Vanguard Vets

May take a unit of 5 for 125 points if you include a Chaplin in your Army.

May take an additional death company at a cost of 25 per model. Maximum 10.

Special Rules:

Feel No Pain
Rage (unless accompanied by a Chaplain, confers Rage to any other character that joins the unit)
Furious Charge
Preferred Enemy
Rending
(A special rule worded exactly like the Lone Wolves rules concerning kill points).

One model in the unit may take a special close combat weapon. Entire squad can take Jump Packs at 5 points per model.



Done. Just make them a unit good enough not to pass up, and you will see them often enough to be fluffy.

DC should just be a unit choice like they used to be. I think that they should get 2 wounds, FNP, Rage, and FC. Rending is slowed and they should be allowed 2 special CCWs. Special rules should be: Same rules mechanic with KPs like Lone Wolves. A chaplain has an option to take them as a retinue. That way you have the option of fielding them as an elite slot...or you can have them in the HQ slot with a chappy.

That way you have the option of fielding them as an elite slot...or you can have them in the HQ slot with a chappy.

You know they will do one or the other, not both.

The more I think about it, the more I think they should a straight elites choice, and let what the chaplians give to that unit be enough incentive to field the combo.

I would also like to see a higher "level" of chaplains in the BA dex, something that combines Chaplains with the stats and wargear allowance of Captians in the current Marine dex.

Chaplains should be to the BA as Rune Preists are to the SW and Librarians are to the SM.

Mahu wrote:One model in the unit may take a special close combat weapon. Entire squad can take Jump Packs at 5 points per model.

Other then your cost on jump-packs that looks good to me (although I could see giving them a larger then normal unit size), I think a flat unit cost of 30 might be best personally.

Mahu wrote:
Chaplains should be to the BA as Rune Preists are to the SW and Librarians are to the SM.

That's an odd point of view...Chaplains are Chaplains....and most closely equivalent to Wolf Priests not rune priests.

Jack

I am referring to "must-have" HQ's.

A Chaplain version that has 3 wounds and an extensive wargear list, and maybe feel no pain, would go a long way to encourage their use.

Chaplians and Wolf Priests now are nice but tend to be overshadowed by Librarians and Rune Priests.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

Jack

If I was writing the rules I'd say that a surviving death company unit gives the opponent 2 kill points, nil for a wiped out unit.

Encourages the BA player to run them flat out at the enemy with the sole intent of dying.
And makes the opponent start to think about weakening them just enough so the won't wreak havoc OR running away, as you would from an 8 foot tall black armoured psychotic space vampire....

Love your sig.

G

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:If I was writing the rules I'd say that a surviving death company unit gives the opponent 2 kill points, nil for a wiped out unit.

Encourages the BA player to run them flat out at the enemy with the sole intent of dying.
And makes the opponent start to think about weakening them just enough so the won't wreak havoc OR running away, as you would from an 8 foot tall black armoured psychotic space vampire....

That'd be great- it'd fit with the fluff really well too, considering DC are meant to be sent on missions to die (better that than go slowly insane, right?). Make them worth using but carry the KP rule with them. This should encourage BA players to steamroll them into enemy lines

Given the tendency toward 'uber' units in the last few codices, I'd say it's plausible to have DC with 2 wounds each. Expect a full retinue of 10 with a chaplain + packs to run about 500 points, though. =)

I'd take a full size squad of these guys in just about every game, regardless..

I'm very interested to see what they do with BA characters and HQ choices.

Mahu wrote:(Wishlisting on my part)

Death Company

Stats: Same as Vanguard Vets

May take a unit of 5 for 125 points if you include a Chaplin in your Army.

May take an additional death company at a cost of 25 per model. Maximum 10.

Special Rules:

Feel No Pain
Rage (unless accompanied by a Chaplain, confers Rage to any other character that joins the unit)
Furious Charge
Preferred Enemy
Rending
(A special rule worded exactly like the Lone Wolves rules concerning kill points).

One model in the unit may take a special close combat weapon. Entire squad can take Jump Packs at 5 points per model.



Done. Just make them a unit good enough not to pass up, and you will see them often enough to be fluffy.

The DC should have not too much special rules.
This would make the unit too expensive and possibly a huge point sink.

BA dont need an update
i really dont want to have to re-do my army to change it when the new dex nerfs BA

To be honest, i think the PDF is fine, only suggestion i would make is that the DC get a chappy with them that does not use up a HQ slot
oh, and give the DC back atleast a powerfist

So you enjoy a codex with 0 fluff, extremely few useful options, out of date wargear

and.. captain tycho?

Im glad youre not in the majority.. I want a real codex thanks

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:If I was writing the rules I'd say that a surviving death company unit gives the opponent 2 kill points, nil for a wiped out unit.

Encourages the BA player to run them flat out at the enemy with the sole intent of dying.
And makes the opponent start to think about weakening them just enough so the won't wreak havoc OR running away, as you would from an 8 foot tall black armoured psychotic space vampire....

After coming up against space wolves and their lone wolves I can say that I really would not like to see this. In my opinion the encouragement to run at the enemy would come from excelling at CC. I don't think a person should be worse off for killing their opponent. Fluff or not, the enemy shouldn't want them to survive.

Gridge wrote:I don't think a person should be worse off for killing their opponent. Fluff or not, the enemy shouldn't want them to survive.

I agree, it might make more sense to have them not count as a kill point at all (i.e. only the sane guy leading them counts) and the Death Company itself doesn't matter one way or the other.

Jack

JD21290 wrote:BA dont need an update
i really dont want to have to re-do my army to change it when the new dex nerfs BA

To be honest, i think the PDF is fine, only suggestion i would make is that the DC get a chappy with them that does not use up a HQ slot
oh, and give the DC back atleast a powerfist

Yeah, we need a real codex.
The 3rd ed codex was much better.
On the other hand, BA needs no gimmicks.

The new dex will hopefully not invalidate any changes that people made to their old lists to accommodate that WD army list turd.

15 pnt assault marines please!

What changes do you speak of? Death company are the same models.. honor guard are the same.. veteran assault marines I suppose were *added* with new options

devs same
tacticals same
transports same
assault marines lost flamers but i dont see how that made anyone remodel anything

terminators same
bikes are the same
all vehicles are the same

TYCHO STILL THE SAME!!!! (please invalidate my tycho, make him useful)

Really the only big change were the vets due to lots of options.. but I imagine theyll still be able to use weapons :p

Rather than units contributing models to the DC, have it so the maximum unit size of the DC is attached to the number of other units in the army.

i.e. Chaplain = X points. Comes with 3 DC. You may add one additional DC for every Tactical, Assault, Dev etc unit in your army to a maximum of 10 additional models, for +Y points per model.

There. Reflects the curse of the blood angels, but also doesn't force you to take them, and still gives you some control over unit size. It also stops people taking a massive DC and very little else.

All I can say is hell no to FNP and 2 wounds combined. Unless your talking 600 plus points for the entire unit (including Chaplin).

If you want to get points down and still keep the above, then DC can never go to ground or claim any sort of cover save. Everybody knows how tough it is to get rid of nob bikers. We don't need another mistake like that again.

Jayden63 wrote:If you want to get points down and still keep the above, then DC can never go to ground or claim any sort of cover save.

This seems a bit much, although I agree about them not needing to be 2 wounds.

Jack

1 Wound with FNP is fine, or 2 Wounds without. Both is overkill, in my opinion.

So you enjoy a codex with 0 fluff, extremely few useful options, out of date wargear

and.. captain tycho?

Im glad youre not in the majority.. I want a real codex thanks

So, instead you want something that works well for you, and you expect GW to release a new dex that does not screw them up in any way shape or form?

I say bollock to that, im still winning my games.
Rather not have them nerf units (you know, as they tend to do alot)
Lets face it, we will be looking at assaults taking up a FA now, scouts stay elite, termies become more expensive and lose thier pod.
scouts lose thier pod.
Meph will take a stat cut, and possible lose his powers (wings of sang being one of the most useful)


Lets face it, they wont be able to write a dex full of fluff with some subtle yet good changes, they will re-structure the entire army.

Allthough, eternal warrior may have to be handed out to dante and meph, since you know, ID aint good for any IC.
Also, scouts may work nicely as troops, provided they dont get thier stats hacked down on par with basic scouts.

JD21290 wrote:

So you enjoy a codex with 0 fluff, extremely few useful options, out of date wargear

and.. captain tycho?

Im glad youre not in the majority.. I want a real codex thanks

So, instead you want something that works well for you, and you expect GW to release a new dex that does not screw them up in any way shape or form?

I say bollock to that, im still winning my games.
Rather not have them nerf units (you know, as they tend to do alot)
Lets face it, we will be looking at assaults taking up a FA now, scouts stay elite, termies become more expensive and lose thier pod.
scouts lose thier pod.
Meph will take a stat cut, and possible lose his powers (wings of sang being one of the most useful)

Lets face it, they wont be able to write a dex full of fluff with some subtle yet good changes, they will re-structure the entire army.

Allthough, eternal warrior may have to be handed out to dante and meph, since you know, ID aint good for any IC.
Also, scouts may work nicely as troops, provided they dont get thier stats hacked down on par with basic scouts.

I doubt GW will screw up BA much more then they already did (they won't have 2 lame duck SM chapters around). BA may have some changes but I really don't see them drastically changing the way they play. Jump Pack troops, the DC, overcharged rhinos are what make BA, BA; if they wanted scouts as troops, Assult Marienes as FA they would have put BA in the Vanilla SM dex. That said they do need to make Assult troops a playable option compared to taticals in a rhino.

What I think most BA players want (me included even though I don't play BA currently) is for a physical dex in hand, not a binder with a printed PDF. I think BA give GW a chance to continue to make the "different" SM chapters more unique then they currently are.

I think the funny thing about that is all the people who used to wish for white dwarf dexes.

GCMandrake wrote:Rather than units contributing models to the DC, have it so the maximum unit size of the DC is attached to the number of other units in the army.

i.e. Chaplain = X points. Comes with 3 DC. You may add one additional DC for every Tactical, Assault, Dev etc unit in your army to a maximum of 10 additional models, for +Y points per model.

There. Reflects the curse of the blood angels, but also doesn't force you to take them, and still gives you some control over unit size. It also stops people taking a massive DC and very little else.

Pretty much what i said. Great minds and all that!

Somnicide wrote:I think the funny thing about that is all the people who used to wish for white dwarf dexes.

Aside from the eventual cutting of fluff to make room, I wouldn't mind a free pdf codex at all. Some decent rules, on the other hand...

I hate the mandatory chap for Death Company idea, I hope they dont do that.

I heard that too

Somnicide wrote:I think the funny thing about that is all the people who used to wish for white dwarf dexes.

I love White Dork codexes for obscure armies, but Blood Angels is a biggy. If they plopped a Hrud dex in one of the currently over priced White Dorks I would be in seventh heaven and actually buy WD again, but to have one of the more highly played armies show up like that without the effort or space to really explore the army I am less jazzed. Either way I am stoked that the new dex is coming out, even if it blows chunks there is a greater sense of legitimacy to the army list when it is not in a WD and will feel better about fielding my Flesh Tearers again.

To be honest, I'm not at all excited about a new BA codex. I mean, I understand they 'kinda' need an update, but come on...Blood Angels 'and' Space Wolves get priority over Necrons and Dark Eldar? GW never seems to have their priorities in the right place :(.

It makes perfect sense. How many people do you know play Dark Eldar and Necron? Not a whole lot really which is sad because I think that the Dark Eldar are the nastiest army in the game... if played right and the Necron have a lot of Character. With that aside I remember reading a statistic a few years back that broke down how many people plays which armies and Space Marines players were in the majority by something like 50% followed up by Chaos Marines with 28% or something like that. I do not know how they compiled those numbers but having been to and ran my fair share of tourneys that sounds about right. Out of 40 members There will usually be a Necron player or two but rarely a Dark Eldar player any more which I am sure is due to lack of support from GW but even then back when they were ushering in the army there were not a whole lot of people playing them and usually they were kids that had bartered their friend's DE for the marines they got in the 3rd ed starter box. It is sad because I wish that there was a more even distribution of wealth when it came to the armies but reality is GW is only catering to demand and not the other way around. This is not coming from a predominant Marine player either, I am a dyed in the wool Ork player with over 10,000 pts.

How many people do you know play Dark Eldar and Necron?

How many people do you know play anything other than Marines?

Yeah. This is why they need codices first, because the game gets stagnant with constant Marine vs. Marine battles, which is all you're ever going to get when they get rules and models constantly while every other army is left to rot with aging codices and model lines.

I think the funny thing about that is all the people who used to wish for white dwarf dexes.

They should be putting out more White Dwarf 'dexes, seeing as how each one costs fething $9 now. At least then you'd be getting something.

It'd be a good way to bring back armies like the LatD, and actually sell some White Dwarf catalogs for once.

GW doesnt want to "bring" armies back.. They want to release models and sell them

Dark eldar require virtually a 100% new model range which is a MASSIVE investment on GW's part for THEORETICAL sales.. DE has a small user base which means perhaps those players will buy new models, but who else?

BA (and marines as an extension) have a LARGE player base.. thus by releasing relatively few new models they can reach a huge target audience

I imagine GW has plans for the other dexs, but they want money in this recession

If GW got a dime for every internet whine about the Necrons and the Dark Eldar they could all retire to the carribean and live like kings.

Kirasu wrote:GW doesnt want to "bring" armies back.. They want to release models and sell them

They will sell models if they bring back LatD, since it requires a lot of conversion work. Lots of IG and 40k/Fantasy Chaos kits. FW also have renegade Guard models that people would probably be more interested in if they were actually legal to use in most games.

It isn't really that hard to convert a LatD army (not as hard as it would be to sculpt a thunderwolf to put your Space Wolves on anyway), and actually sounds like it would be endless fun. But if you have to practically beg people to let you field them and you have to use the army as "counts-as" Imperial Guard then it kinda kills most of the interest.

but they want money in this recession

You could've fooled me, lol. If they wanted our money so badly then why are they actually withdrawing from us during this recession, making all these bad decisions and practically telling us to "feth off"?

You don't treat the customer like crap unless you want them to take their money elsewhere.

EDIT: Something is wrong with my posts, anyone else having that kinda problem or is it just me...

Arschbombe wrote:If GW got a dime for every internet whine about the Necrons and the Dark Eldar they could all retire to the carribean and live like kings.

Said the Blood Angels player.

Seriously though, there are too many marine players out there. I get sick of having to go into my local gaming store and have to melodramatically fight marine army, after marine army, after Tau (wait scratch that, I meant marine army), after marine army. GW would surely make more money if they made Necrons and DE a fresh, new army. Polish 'em up a bit, and I guarantee you more people would play them.

Darth Bob wrote:
Said the Blood Angels player.

Who also plays nids and tau.

I get sick of having to go into my local gaming store and have to melodramatically fight marine army, after marine army,

And I get sick of having every rumor thread polluted with the DE and Necron whine. It doesn't seem to matter which army is being discussed there's always a reason for someone to whine about DE and Necrons. It's the 40k version of "are we there yet?"

GW would surely make more money if they made Necrons and DE a fresh, new army. Polish 'em up a bit, and I guarantee you more people would play them.

Maybe. Maybe not. Neither army appears to have done particularly well before. There's no reason to think they'll automatically do better this time around.

Actually, putting Army Lists in White Dwarf would sell more models. People who have the WD see a 'free' list, and think as they have it, why not give it a go. Would be perfect for the so-called smaller armies, such as LatD, and even Inquisition if the rumours of them just becoming an FOC choice in forthcoming Codexi is true.

Exactly my line of thinking. "Free" rules ($9, likely spread over several issues, is not "free"...although I assume they'd appear in PDF form like the BA codex so yeah ) take very little effort to produce (seeing as how GW doesn't playtest this crap anyway) and encourage people to buy more models. People would buy White Dwarf too, since there's actual real content in them to spend the money on.

Arschbombe wrote:

Darth Bob wrote:
Said the Blood Angels player.

Who also plays nids and tau.

I get sick of having to go into my local gaming store and have to melodramatically fight marine army, after marine army,

And I get sick of having every rumor thread polluted with the DE and Necron whine. It doesn't seem to matter which army is being discussed there's always a reason for someone to whine about DE and Necrons. It's the 40k version of "are we there yet?"

GW would surely make more money if they made Necrons and DE a fresh, new army. Polish 'em up a bit, and I guarantee you more people would play them.

Maybe. Maybe not. Neither army appears to have done particularly well before. There's no reason to think they'll automatically do better this time around.

Okay? Nids are getting a new codex in January. And Tau...well sorry, but in my opinion Tau were just a silly appeal to fans of anime and don't deserve a place in the 40k universe, period. Again, just my opinion, and I have nothing against Tau players. The point is you don't know what it's like to have to wait contently for a new codex only to have them bring out a codex that doesn't need to be brought out. I'm not whining. I don't even play Necrons or DE, but I have enough common sense to know that what they are doing is stupid. GW needs to hop off the Space Marines' nuts and give a little support to people at the other end of the spectrum. There's no reason to say they wouldn't take off either. I personally know alot of people who have wanted to start Necrons but were turned off to it by the fact that their codex is so old, and the models are so un-characterful. I would bet money that new Necron stuff would usher in a swathe of people wanting to play them. Dark Eldar, maybe not so much, but you never know.

Someone's been editing our posts.....

Darth Bob wrote:
Okay? Nids are getting a new codex in January.

Right. And there have been plenty of posts about how they don't "deserve" one.

And Tau...well sorry, but in my opinion Tau were just a silly appeal to fans of anime and don't deserve a place in the 40k universe, period. Again, just my opinion, and I have nothing against Tau players.

Everyone has their opinions along these lines. I'd like to see the Necrons and Dark Eldar deleted, for example. As for the Tau, I like them because they're they only faction in the setting that makes sense both in terms of how they fight and what they fight for. Anime isn't part of the appeal for me though I did enjoy Star Blazers back in the day.

The point is you don't know what it's like to have to wait contently for a new codex only to have them bring out a codex that doesn't need to be brought out.

Lots of armies need updates, but GW decides which ones get updates and in what order. I think it's quite apparent that their ideas of who needs a new codex is different from yours. Surely they will agree that both Necrons and DE are in need of updates, but they're just not as high a priority as the other, more popular armies are.

What the hell is up with everyone's posts lately? I feel like I'm the only one noticing this stuff, is it just me?

EDIT: It seems I'm not, quoting your post shows me the whole thing and you see it, too.

And I was unlucky enough to have seen this:

And Tau...well sorry, but in my opinion Tau were just a silly appeal to fans of anime and don't deserve a place in the 40k universe, period. Again, just my opinion, and I have nothing against Tau players.

Well, I have everything against you now. How would you like it if I told you your army didn't "deserve" a place in the game universe and implied that either the army itself or people who played it (like you) were "silly"?

What the hell gives you or anyone the right to make that kind of judgment? GW apparently thinks they "deserve" a place in the universe, why isn't that good enough for some people?

You're right, it's just your opinion, but I really wish you people would keep it to your fething selves. I can deal with playful ribbing, but I can't stand when people come out and practically say they wish my army didn't exist because they personally don't like it. Should I quit 40k, would that make you feel better? Or should I just sell off the Tau and pick the right army this time (Space Marines)?

Funnily enough, if GW had redone Orks or Dark Eldar sooner I would have gone with one of them as my main army instead. So if you hate Tau so much and don't like the fact that I picked them, blame GW for not giving me one of my other choices.

I have a better idea; how about you guys keep all the BS out of this thread.

Take your catfight somewhere else.

So uh...you got anything to add to the thread then that's on-topic (that isn't more wishlisting)? You see any new models or rules you want to share?

Sidstyler wrote:So uh...you got anything to add to the thread then that's on-topic (that isn't more wishlisting)? You see any new models or rules you want to share?

Nothing more than you seem to have.

This thread may have just reached its expiration date...

Yeah, I'm thinking this one should be locked. When some new, juicy rumors surface we can PM a mod to re-open or just start a new thread.

+1

So be it!

Unless something new shows up that makes us re-evaluate this, I think it is time to lock up shop here...