I dont see how Im the thost suspicous, but I think shooting Arctik is the best way to go. If we shoot Arctik we will be killing two birds with one stone, we will verify that Demogerg is a loyalist, or not and we could have a dead traitor.

I think we need to shoot someone today. I think Demogerg and Gornall using the skulls on me, Mekboy and Thor is a good idea. If Gornall is killled, he will "mark a Heritic" and we will simply shoot him the next day.

Lord-Loss wrote:I dont see how Im the thost suspicous,

You're not, you're the second most suspicious (for me). I can't guarantee Arctik's reasoning, but I find you suspicious because of the way you always tend to swoop in, announce agreement with stuff but then will change your mind if/when somebody starts to attack a plan. You just seem so eagerly agreeable on a constant basis one starts to wonder why. For me also you were sort of in with some of Arctik's stuff with this pattern, and since Arctik is my most likely traitor it tends to put you in as the second most likely.

@Gornall - I will say Lord-Loss is a more suspicious guy, but simply because we will need the investigators to be around and talking after the servo-skulls come back I am slightly biased against Mekboy. Of course if he shows up and says that he'll be around and available to talk things over with us I'll withdraw my issue - but unless he does I tend to suggest shooting Mekboy simply because Lord-Loss seems more likely to show up and tell us the result of the servo skull. If Mekboy doesn't show and doesn't say anything it's a big problem.

Going over Gornall's extended round robin plan.

Demo investigates me, I investigate Mekboy/Lord-Loss, MB/LL investigates Arctik. (the me and Mekboy/LL pair can be flipped around but it will change the tactics and strategy I present below so those names will be flipped around as well. I just fgured it was best if I didn't investigate Arctik as that might raise extra defensive arguments for him)
We shoot the non investigating half of Mekboy/Lord-Loss. (for the purposes of this example I'll presume the Mekboy being killed option but really their names are interchangeable unless Mekboy doesn't show up to tell us what his servo skull result was)
Worst case is two heretics one of whom is possessed.
Since I know I'm innocent we have the following possibilities for the heretic pairs.

Arctik/Demo
Kill Lord-Loss and announce I'm heretic. I can say nothing more then "no I'm not." I get shot. On their turn they each kill a techpriest. We shoot one of them. They win.

Arctik/Lord-loss
Kill me via possessed. The regular heretic stabs one of the tech priests. Lord Loss announces Arctik as heretic (if Arctik is a regular heretic then he would stab Gornall and not a tech priest) We shoot Arctik. Lord-Loss is able to maybe kill someone depending on whether he is possessed or not (let's presume he kills a tech priest leaving us with either Gornall or a tech priest and Demo and LL left). 50/50 chance to shoot heretic.

Mekboy/Lord-Loss
Mekboy is shot and flips heretic. If LL is possessed he insta kills someone in the chain. (probably me or Demo. Killing me makes most sense as otherwise I'll announce him as heretic) claims heretic on Arctik. Artick is shot and flips loyalist. LL is shot, we win. If LL is not possessed he stabs a techpriest. I announce him as heretic, he announces Arctik as heretic, demo confirms I'm loyal. We shoot either Arctik or LL, and then the next day shoot the other one. We win.

Mekboy/Arctik
This is interesting because scum Arctik cannot change his vote on Demo. We shoot Mekboy and he flips scum. Arctik, if not possessed, kills a tech priest and is caught by Lord-Loss and shot. If Arctik is possessed he kills Lord-Loss. I have no results, Demo sees I'm innocent and Arctik is the obvious end of the chain. Shoot Arctik, we win.

It looks like 2 out of 4 times we get a win with worst case scenario.
1 out of 4 we get 50/50.
1 out of 4 we lose.

Better odds then other plans unless I'm missing something major. (I was surprised how much better it worked then a 'small' round robin with Arctik being shot, honestly.)

I see all these plans, I like them. Then I see another plan and that one if better then the last one.

Now I find myself agreeing with Thor. His plan seems to work well, I cant see any holes in it.

We have 24 left (I think) so we need to hurry.

Thor665 wrote:

Lord-Loss wrote:I dont see how Im the thost suspicous,

You're not, you're the second most suspicious (for me). I can't guarantee Arctik's reasoning, but I find you suspicious because of the way you always tend to swoop in, announce agreement with stuff but then will change your mind if/when somebody starts to attack a plan. You just seem so eagerly agreeable on a constant basis one starts to wonder why. For me also you were sort of in with some of Arctik's stuff with this pattern, and since Arctik is my most likely traitor it tends to put you in as the second most likely.

@Gornall - I will say Lord-Loss is a more suspicious guy, but simply because we will need the investigators to be around and talking after the servo-skulls come back I am slightly biased against Mekboy. Of course if he shows up and says that he'll be around and available to talk things over with us I'll withdraw my issue - but unless he does I tend to suggest shooting Mekboy simply because Lord-Loss seems more likely to show up and tell us the result of the servo skull. If Mekboy doesn't show and doesn't say anything it's a big problem.

Going over Gornall's extended round robin plan.

Demo investigates me, I investigate Mekboy/Lord-Loss, MB/LL investigates Arctik. (the me and Mekboy/LL pair can be flipped around but it will change the tactics and strategy I present below so those names will be flipped around as well. I just fgured it was best if I didn't investigate Arctik as that might raise extra defensive arguments for him)
We shoot the non investigating half of Mekboy/Lord-Loss. (for the purposes of this example I'll presume the Mekboy being killed option but really their names are interchangeable unless Mekboy doesn't show up to tell us what his servo skull result was)
Worst case is two heretics one of whom is possessed.
Since I know I'm innocent we have the following possibilities for the heretic pairs.

Arctik/Demo
Kill Lord-Loss and announce I'm heretic. I can say nothing more then "no I'm not." I get shot. On their turn they each kill a techpriest. We shoot one of them. They win.

Arctik/Lord-loss
Kill me via possessed. The regular heretic stabs one of the tech priests. Lord Loss announces Arctik as heretic (if Arctik is a regular heretic then he would stab Gornall and not a tech priest) We shoot Arctik. Lord-Loss is able to maybe kill someone depending on whether he is possessed or not (let's presume he kills a tech priest leaving us with either Gornall or a tech priest and Demo and LL left). 50/50 chance to shoot heretic.

Mekboy/Lord-Loss
Mekboy is shot and flips heretic. If LL is possessed he insta kills someone in the chain. (probably me or Demo. Killing me makes most sense as otherwise I'll announce him as heretic) claims heretic on Arctik. Artick is shot and flips loyalist. LL is shot, we win. If LL is not possessed he stabs a techpriest. I announce him as heretic, he announces Arctik as heretic, demo confirms I'm loyal. We shoot either Arctik or LL, and then the next day shoot the other one. We win.

Mekboy/Arctik
This is interesting because scum Arctik cannot change his vote on Demo. We shoot Mekboy and he flips scum. Arctik, if not possessed, kills a tech priest and is caught by Lord-Loss and shot. If Arctik is possessed he kills Lord-Loss. I have no results, Demo sees I'm innocent and Arctik is the obvious end of the chain. Shoot Arctik, we win.

It looks like 2 out of 4 times we get a win with worst case scenario.
1 out of 4 we get 50/50.
1 out of 4 we lose.

Better odds then other plans unless I'm missing something major. (I was surprised how much better it worked then a 'small' round robin with Arctik being shot, honestly.)

all this discussion is great and all, but I am very concerened about time, lets get the votes going and the shot lined up before they have an opprotunity to attack us again.

EDIT: In response to Thor:

If you're a traitor, what does that do to the scenario? We know you and Demogerg can't be paired up, so that leaves you and Arctik, you and Mekboy, and you and Lord-Loss. Also, do the traitors gain anything by simply killing Tech Priests and lying?

Before we start voting (I do think this plan is best), lets get a status update of time left and what votes are out there. I think shooting Mekboy will work (unless he pops on before the status update). Once we get the status update, we can start voting... VERY carefully.

I think I found a hole in your stategy....

If Arctik and MB/LL are both traitors, and they kill me insted of Thor, then Thor claims MB/LL is a traitor, MB/LL claims Arctik to be traitor, and Arctik claims that because Demo is dead then Thor and MB/LL must both be traitors.

and you would only have Gornall, and a techpriest to guess based on word who is the traitor. a 2/3rd chance to shoot the correct target then, but then the final heretic would kill a techpriest, and there is a 50/50 chance in the last day for the correct kill shot to go out.

but regardless of this hole, I do not think there are 2 heretics, and I do not think there are any possesed.

so lets lay out the votes and get them going.

Gornall wrote:EDIT: In response to Thor:

If you're a traitor, what does that do to the scenario? We know you and Demogerg can't be paired up, so that leaves you and Arctik, you and Mekboy, and you and Lord-Loss.

I will caution you about asking me to do logical plans based on me being the traitor - I might try to skew results in my favor if I am a heretic. That said, I'll tackle it for you, but you might want to do some yourself.

Thor and Arctik traitor - (this seems difficult to accept since we've both been trying to get the other shot but...) We kill Demo. I announce LL as heretic, Lord-Loss announces Arctik as heretic and says I'm a filthy liar. We shoot LL ot Arctik (50/50 odds as either will give us all the info we need. Probably smart to shoot Arctik since both he and I would have been "setting up" LL earlier by suggesting he seemed second most likely traitor to each of us. Arctik flips traitor and then I kill something and am shot, Imperium win.

Thor and Lord-Loss traitor - Very similar to above. Kill Demo get Arctik shot. Double night kill tech priests, Traitors win.

Thor and Mekboy traitor - Mekboy flips traitor, I kill a tech priest if I am not possessed. I am caught and shot, Imperium wins. If I am possessed I probably kill Lord-Loss. Demo calls me a heretic and I argue that he and Arctik are heretics working together (citing my example above). Arctik is shot to verify Demo. I can kill nothing because double tapped. I am then shot, Imperium wins.

Biggest danger seems to be if I'm paired with Lord-Loss simply because Arctik and I are bringing in extra baggage on him. If we shoot LL and leave Mekboy alive we can remove the danger of a heretic win with the Thor/LL pairing, but it then increases as a danger on the Thor/Arctik pairing because we wouldn't have a good way to sniff out our collusion at that point and would probably shoot Mekboy first, not Arctik.

Also, do the traitors gain anything by simply killing Tech Priests and lying?

Traitors double night kill tech priests and then just declare heretic on everyone they investigated?

There are a couple of situations where this gives the Imperium a better then 50% chance because of where Demo is or is not a heretic - since for some pairings he'll already have been called innocent (a big advantage of including him and Arctik in the round robin). Pretty much all of the others come down to a 50/50 - but logically we might be able to back track them if they kill Demo in order to improve those odds. In those situations usually our odds are best if Arctik is scum - as we usually will need to shoot him first every time.

Demogerg wrote:I think I found a hole in your stategy....

If Arctik and MB/LL are both traitors, and they kill me insted of Thor, then Thor claims MB/LL is a traitor, MB/LL claims Arctik to be traitor, and Arctik claims that because Demo is dead then Thor and MB/LL must both be traitors.

So we shoot MB/LL since both Arctik and I claim he is a heretic (this can be modified depending on which of them it is as I outlined in my post after yours and above this one), he flips traitor. Arctik stabs a tech priest. That leaves Gornall, a tech priest, unconfirmed me, and Arctik. It's a 50/50 at that point which is about what we're averaging and what I think was the percentage I gave of a Arctik/LL (or MB) scum pair. (checks - yes, I called that one as a 50/50, so I agree with you)

I also agree that I don't think there are two heretics - but I am putting out our worst case scenarios. If we only have one heretic left then we basically cannot go wrong with this round robin plan.

Info from Manchu's last update modified with Lord-Loss' votes that came later (page 10). Did I miss anything?

Okeo, Lord Loss and Valhallan vote to deploy against Thor.

Orkeo, Lord Loss and Valhallan vote to deploy against Mekboy.

Orkeo, Lord Loss and Valhallan vote to deploy against Lord Loss.

Votes for Thor deployment - 3
Votes for Lord-Loss deployment - 3
Votes for Mekboy deployment - 3
Votes for Arctik deployment - 0

Need 5 votes to deploy. Last person to vote deployment will deploy.

We need to know whom we are shooting and what investigation order we are using (I'm still partial to Demo ->me -> LL/MB -> Arctik because I don't think I should investigate Arctik. It also means we actually don't need to do any unvoting of servo deployment (which Manchu has not verified if we can or cannot do, and I don't want to find out we can't after we end up deploying incorrectly) Thoughts?)

Status Update

Lord-Loss, Orkeo, and Valhallan vote to deploy against Thor.

Lord-Loss, Orkeo, and Valhallan vote to deploy against Mekboy.

Lord-Loss, Orkeo, and Valhallan vote to deploy against Lord-Loss.

Gornall, Orkeosaurus, and Valhallan are wounded.

Stynier, the heretic, is dead.

Gornall controls the laspistol and may shoot.

- - - - - - -

Day Phase of Turn 3 ends on Thursday 27 November at 12:00AM EST -OR- when someone is shot. Because of Thanksgiving travelling, I may not be able to update on-time. Please refrain, as per the rules, from discussion past that deadline or after someone is shot even if there is no immediate update. Out of character comments regarding player availability (especially explanations of why someone has not posted of late) are an exception.

Happy (advance) Thanksgiving to all!

@ Thor: I've been doing my own checking, but I wanted you to go out on a limb and if your ideas didn't match, then we'd have a better idea if you were schnookering us.

Okay... I'm nominating Mekboy to be killed and casting my votes. The order Thor proposed is fine.

Vote to deploy skull against Thor, Lord-Loss, and Arctik.

The next votes for Thor and Lord Loss will deploy them. Arctik needs several more.

So Thor now votes to deploy against Mekboy and me, then Im the last to vote to deploy for Arctik. Then Demo votes to deploy against Thor.



Lets hope there is on heretic.

Vote to deploy against Lord Loss and Arctik

That will make me investigate Lord Loss which is where I should be.
Demogerg should be the final vote to investigate me and can also vote for an Arctik investigation.
One of the tech priests can vote for Arctik and then Lord-Loss can come in as the final vote so he'll be investigating Arctik and complete the chain.

After that we can shoot Mekboy.

Ok, here we go

I am going along here with the shoot mekboy plan

Vote to deploy Servo-Skull to investigate Thor
(this should give me the investigate)
Vote to deploy Servo-Skull to investigate Arctik
(few more to get him in the loop.)

Arctik currently has 3 votes for deployment. We need one more and then the next person to vote Arctik will be the investigator.

Therefore we need Valhallan or Orkeo (or Arctik I suppose) to vote, and then Lord Loss to vote.

I would vote, but you obviously don't trust me. If shooting me is what it takes to ensure imperial victory, so be it.

Ave imperator.

Because so much has just been solidified . . .

Status Update

Thor deploys servo skull against Lord-Loss.

Demogerg deploys servo skull against Thor.

Gornall, Thor, and Demogerg vote to deploy against Arctik.

Orkeo, Lord Loss and Valhallan vote to deploy against Mekboy.

Gornall, Orkeosaurus, and Valhallan are wounded.

Stynier, the heretic, is dead.

Gornall controls the laspistol and may shoot.

Mekboy wrote:I would vote, but you obviously don't trust me. If shooting me is what it takes to ensure imperial victory, so be it.

You could still vote to help set up a Arctik servo skull investigation - if you're a loyalist you'd still want to help.

Vote to deploy Servo-Skull to investigate Arctik

Vote to deploy servo-skull against Arctik

No one else but Lord-Loss should vote for servo skulls now.

After he does Gornall has an all clear on the firing range and we can get to the exciting work afterwards. I hope to see you again on the other side but if not encourage careful deliberation and logic and no itchy trigger fingers - we should be able to logically break down who the guilty are after this series of skulls is released.

((ninja - they're everywhere))

Now Orkeo or Valhallan need to vote to deploy for me and Mekboy. Then Thor votes to deploy for me and Mekboy.

We've already deployed on you (I'm operator), and we don't have a skull to send at Mekboy since Arctik speed deployed yesterday on Demo - we're sorta planning to just shoot him.

Did they all get deployed?

((OOC - Manchu's status update officially says Demo and I have deployed successfully (at Thor and Lord-Loss respectively). By my count we have also now completed Lord-Loss' deployment on Arctik as well though you may wish to get Manchu to officially state it for extra assuredness.))

Edit - to fix the respectively, as otherwise it made no sense

Status Update Please!

It's going to be interesting to see how this works out. We may pull this off easily or Thor/Arctik/Lord-Loss may have pulled a fast one on us! Here's hoping it works out!

{OOC: Just woke up here... a lot of activity has gone on. It would seem that servo-skulls required only four votes to deploy (not 5 as originally stated by Thor, although that seems like what it should have been), but I am guessing that I am the odd-man-out? This suits me fine, I just hope that this voting business has been counted up properly. I officially declare my endorsement of this deployment strategy should it make any difference in the case of a miscount - I can't vote for any deploment as that would likely make me the recipient.

An update would be nice Manchu... it would be a little unfair if we were rendered incapable of doing what the majority of us had wanted to do because we didn't know if the votes were sitting properly. We want to get our shot off. Perhaps Gornall or the pistol character should declare that they intend to shoot as soon as skulls have been deployed?}

Fortune favors the bold... Sorry Mekboy, may the Emperor protect... BLAM!!

Shoot Mekboy!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:{OOC: Just woke up here... a lot of activity has gone on. It would seem that servo-skulls required only four votes to deploy (not 5 as originally stated by Thor, although that seems like what it should have been), but I am guessing that I am the odd-man-out? This suits me fine, I just hope that this voting business has been counted up properly. I officially declare my endorsement of this deployment strategy should it make any difference in the case of a miscount - I can't vote for any deploment as that would likely make me the recipient.

An update would be nice Manchu... it would be a little unfair if we were rendered incapable of doing what the majority of us had wanted to do because we didn't know if the votes were sitting properly. We want to get our shot off. Perhaps Gornall or the pistol character should declare that they intend to shoot as soon as skulls have been deployed?}

Demo
AF
LL
MB
Thor
Orkeo
Val
Gorn

to get a vote off it must have half rounded down plus one, 8/2=4 4+1=5

(OOC: That's what I thought - sorry, miscounted the votes there... Was a bit hungover thismorning and had to get going to work... Thought there had only been 4 votes on each person.)

End of Turn 3 Day Status Update

Thor deploys servo skull against Lord-Loss.

Demogerg deploys servo skull against Thor.

Lord-Loss deploys servo skull against Arctik.

Gornall, Orkeosaurus, and Valhallan are wounded.

Stynier, the heretic, is dead.

Gornall controls the laspistol and may shoot.

Gornall has shot Mekboy!

The laspitsol crackles again and another red-robed figure falls to the ground. You all surge forward eager to unveil another traitor. Pulling the rust-colored cowl back reveals an elaborate electoo glimmering at the base of the late Mekboy's skull, a cog ceaselessly turning around a skull. But the image flickers as Mekboy's final words weeze through his vox amplifier: "For . . . the . . . Omnissiah . . ."

Mekboy was a loyal Titan Crewman.

- - - - - - - -

I hope everyone has enjoyed eating some Turkey today!

OOC: When does night phase stuff need to be in?

Day of Turn 4 Begins . . .

Lord-Loss is dead!

He was a Titan Crewman.

Uh-oh... either we have a possessed or two traitors. Let's get those reports in!

Indeed. This is a conundrum.

I think I know what our next move is though based on the results so far.

Argh!

I urged that Thor not be trusted as a strategist, and look what has happened. This is a clear attempt to frame me. Thor is the traitor... a traitor at least. Lord-Loss was killed so that I would not be cleared, and so that Demogerg's inevitable discovery of Thor's guilt would be unverifiable.

Shoot Thor now and end this.

My strategy would never have ended in this situation... I can only blame, on my part, my fault in spending too much time on my own strategy and not enough time pulling apart Thor's. I did, at the last second, approve this plan, the 'round-robin', but only out of my own desperation to see that something happened before it was too late. I had no votes or other influence in the matter.

We are getting desperate here. If Thor is a lone possessed, which I believe to be the case, then he will not be able to attack tomorrow. We may, therefore, have a little more time on our hands than if there are two traitors...

We have three options if there is confidence that this is the case:

1: Shoot Thor immediately
2: Shoot me, hope that no one dies tonight, and then shoot Thor in full confidence of Demogerg's investigation result.
3: If Demogerg reports Thor to be innocent, then Mekboy must be shot, but I sincerely doubt that this is the case.

What does Demogerg say about all of this?

He'll report me as an innocent, of course. I fail to see why a killing of Lord-Loss is an indictment of me or why Arctik wants to rush having me shot. Let's just wait for Demo, clear this up, and then apply logic.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:3: If Demogerg reports Thor to be innocent, then Mekboy must be shot, but I sincerely doubt that this is the case.

Mekboy was already shot. For a man saying the evidence clearly points to me you don't seem to be paying too much attention to it.

[Heh, I originally only had the first two, but then added in the Mekboy one on an impulse...]

If Demogerg reports you to be innocent, then part of our 'trinity' of loyalists is against us. I will still absolutely doubt your loyalty until I hear his report... but the former situation seems so unlikely.

We now have ruled out Lord-Loss and Mekboy as definitely not being Tech-priests, and I know that Demogerg nor I are tech-priests...

...

Thor, if you are indeed innocent, then there are no tech-priests, and Orkeo and Valhallan are somehow traitors... which would be a brilliant ruse... but it still doesn't seem to follow.

Where are those that have the reports?

We have little time to lose!

OOC: When is the deadline (given the holiday weekend?).

I will keep my conclusions and strategy to myself until we've heard from Demogerg.

Arg! Gornall... why did you shoot Mekboy...

Valhallan and I aren't traitors. And up until this rather impulsive shooting I was pretty sure of Gornall's innocence.

But let me get something straight... Arctik has said that Demogerg is innocent. However, Demogerg has no way of knowing if Arctik is innocent, correct? Because in that case it would be possible for Demogerg to be innocent, and Arctik to still be a traitor.

Deadline is Monday Nov 30 12:00AM EST

Orkeosaurus wrote:Arg! Gornall... why did you shoot Mekboy...

Valhallan and I aren't traitors. And up until this rather impulsive shooting I was pretty sure of Gornall's innocence.

But let me get something straight... Arctik has said that Demogerg is innocent. However, Demogerg has no way of knowing if Arctik is innocent, correct? Because in that case it would be possible for Demogerg to be innocent, and Arctik to still be a traitor.

I wouldn't call my shooting impulsive, as that's what most people decided was the right strategy for yesterday. But yes, Demogerg may not have knowledge of Arctik's guilt or innocence.

OOC:: I thought weekends counted as one day.

Gornall wrote:OOC:: I thought weekends counted as one day.

Snap, my b yo. (I amuse myself at least.) Should be 12:00AM EST Wednesday. Holiday has me out of sync.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:[Heh, I originally only had the first two, but then added in the Mekboy one on an impulse...]

If Demogerg reports you to be innocent, then part of our 'trinity' of loyalists is against us. I will still absolutely doubt your loyalty until I hear his report... but the former situation seems so unlikely.

I do not like this talk. WHy would you want to suggest that if Demo found me innocent it would somehow cast doubt on the techpriests? ((OOC - according to the rules there*are* tech priests, this cannot be argued unless you think Manchu decided to lie to us in the rules))

Valhallan42nd wrote:Where are those that have the reports?

Lord-Loss was investigating Arctik - Lord Loss died so cannot report.
I was investigating Lord-Loss he died so I have no report but we know he was a loyalist.
Demogerg was investigating me - he has not yet reported.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Valhallan and I aren't traitors. And up until this rather impulsive shooting I was pretty sure of Gornall's innocence.

This is a more reasonable fear then Arctik's, but don't freak out yet. Demo can still show up and annouce my innocence and we can then verify Arctik as a high priority suspect. The potential of Gornall as a traitor is possible - but just at the moment is not highly likely as far as I can tell.

Orkeosaurus wrote:But let me get something straight... Arctik has said that Demogerg is innocent. However, Demogerg has no way of knowing if Arctik is innocent, correct? Because in that case it would be possible for Demogerg to be innocent, and Arctik to still be a traitor.

That is true. At the moment (and as long as we presume Gornall is innocent) the only possible traitor matchups are;

Arctik+me
Arctik+Demogerg

You cannot have Demo+me because then Arctik would have announced him as a traitor with the servo skull investigation.

Yup... we have 4 main options right now:

1. Arctik and Thor
2. Arctik and Demogerg
3. Arctik Alone
4. Thor Alone

In all four of those, our best course of action is to shoot Arctik. If Thor is alone, we have time left if Arctik comes back loyal (which I doubt).

((OOC can I vote we shoot Orkeo because he murdered me in the other game? That seems like pretty suspicious behavior to me ))

I do agree with your four option breakdown Gornall and the conclusion you draw. We still should wait for Demo's report though since we have a bit of time to consider ((OOC we're not that close to deadline in the grand scheme))

I was under the impression that there may or may not be any given special roles present... I now see that this applies only to the Secutor.

Can anyone see any way that Gornall could not be a secutor? The first night phase and resulting traitor kill would seem to suggest that he certainly is... but I'm going to look into this further.

I again request to be shot. If Thor is the only possible Genestealer, then he is also a possessed, and cannot attack tonight if he did so last night. If I am a traitor, then shooting me is the best you can achieve in one day phase anyway.

Worm your way out of that one, scum.

Thor is a Possesed Heretic. Shoot him now.

...and there you go. Unless Demogerg AND I are traitors, then Thor is your man. I'm pretty confident that you could get away with shooting me as a precaution, and be at no loss if I turned out to be a traitor. If so, then we win, or Demogerg gets shot tomorrow.


::Servitor Arctik mutters a prayer to the Omnissiah and bows his head::

Well, that's certainly interesting.

With Demo calling me traitor we now know that it's impossible to have an Arctik alone team.

The only possible remaining options are;
Arctik+Thor
Arctik+Demo
Thor alone.

I don't think I buy Arctik's none-so-veiled attempts to keep casting doubt on either the tech priests and/or Gornall - so I'm suggesting that the above are our only true options. With this info we know that our first act has to be to shoot Arctik - he'll either flip traitor or loyalist (traitor methinks) ((in night phase his traitor partner will stab and kill a tech priest)). At that point we have an option between Demo and me. If Arctik flipped loyal you'll know to shoot me (Imperium win) if Arctik flipped heretic you'll know to shoot Demo (Imperium win). Therefore we shoot Arctik, clear my name, and shoot his traitor partner.

We've just won, traitors. Try to wriggle out of that.

Hmm. Why shoot Arctik?

If we shoot him, and he flips traitor, it would still be possible for you to be traitor like Demogerg said, right?

I'm inclined to shoot you. If you flip traitor and the game doesn't end we'll shoot Arctik. If you flip loyal and the game doesn't end we'll shoot Demogerg.

If I flip loyal and th egame doesn't end it's not a good idea to shoot Demogerg (he can only be a traitor if he's allied with Arctik). The problem with shooting me first leaves you with two heretics, so it'd go thusly;

Shoot me, each heretic kills a tech priest. Gornall kills one of them ((though I think they autowin if there's only one of us left)) the last remaining one kills Gornall. Heretic victory.

The way to ensure Imperial win is to shoot Arctik since Demo and I cannot be partners with each other, it will prevent a double tech priest kill. Since the only way Demo can be a heretic is if Arctik is his partner you'll know whether to shoot me or him next (since Demo has said I'm a heretic he's proved that either he or I are a heretic)

Therefore we know either Demo or me are heretics.

If either of us have a partner it has to be Arctik.

Demo can only be a heretic if Arctik is his partner.

Therefore shooting Arctik will either prove Demo is innocent or a heretic and thereofre will tell us exactly who to shoot between Demo and me (for the record - Demo).

Thor665 wrote:If I flip loyal and th egame doesn't end it's not a good idea to shoot Demogerg (he can only be a traitor if he's allied with Arctik).

Ah, right. But since Demogerg says you're a traitor, he would have to be a traitor to falsely accuse you.

Shoot me, each heretic kills a tech priest. Gornall kills one of them ((though I think they autowin if there's only one of us left)) the last remaining one kills Gornall. Heretic victory.

The way to ensure Imperial win is to shoot Arctik since Demo and I cannot be partners with each other, it will prevent a double tech priest kill. Since the only way Demo can be a heretic is if Arctik is his partner you'll know whether to shoot me or him next (since Demo has said I'm a heretic he's proved that either he or I are a heretic)

Therefore we know either Demo or me are heretics.

If either of us have a partner it has to be Arctik.

Demo can only be a heretic if Arctik is his partner.

Therefore shooting Arctik will either prove Demo is innocent or a heretic and thereofre will tell us exactly who to shoot between Demo and me (for the record - Demo).

Ah, good explaination.

I am now most inclined to shoot Arctik. Any other thoughts (from others)?

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Thor665 wrote:If I flip loyal and th egame doesn't end it's not a good idea to shoot Demogerg (he can only be a traitor if he's allied with Arctik).

Ah, right. But since Demogerg says you're a traitor, he would have to be a traitor to falsely accuse you.

Precisely.

If Demogerg and I are traitors, then killing one of us is for the best anyway. Since Thor is a single possessed, though, it does not matter if I am innocent.

Then we kill you. If you flip innocent we kill Thor, if you flip traitor we kill Demogerg.


The only other possible scenario I can think of is this:

Stynier was a Heretic, Gornall is a Heretic, Thor is a Posessed. It would be clever, if the odds were stacked against us so unfortunately. They planned it from the begining, carefully setting Gornall up as a Secutor when there wasn't one by having Stynier take the fall.

If this was the scenario, our best bet would be to kill Thor now, to stop him from going posessed on us. However, it is an unlikely scenario. It seems more likely that Arctik and Demogerg are both regular Heretics, and killing Thor today would destroy us in that case.

If Gornall is indeed a traitor, then he would delay in attacking Thor on the morrow... Indeed, he would only need to shoot Demogerg, as our two tech-priests would be killed by them both tonight.

Should that be the case, and given that it is a possibility, I argue that Gornall should relinquish the pistol to one of the tech-priests.

[OOC: I understand that a single post is required between picking up the pistol and firing it? We should consider this... if both Techpriests are killed after I am shot, then only Demogerg will remain, and he cannot technically stop two heretics from shooting him. Should this be the case, shooting me would be an absolute disaster.]

Ok, now I know that Thor is a possesed heretic, his choice in kills was good, but not perfect, because we are in a situation where it looks like AF will die, then he will die right after him.

but why would he put himself in such a guarenteed-lose situation, Thor is an intelligent player and he must have some trick up his sleeve that I am not seeing.

There is possibly a 3rd heretic on board this God-Machine,

Gornx ?Secutor?
Valhalx ?Imperial Tech-Priest?
Orkeox ?Imperial Tech-Priest?
Thor Possesed Heretic.
AF ?most likely innocent?
Demo Space Wolf Iron Priest in training.

IF Gornall is a heretic, and this is a trick, then thor and him have won by shooting AF.

I dont think AF is a heretic at this point, because there would be no reason for one heretic and another to butt heads in such a manner that they are both primary targets.

This might be more complicated than he is letting on.

and I think I might have a solution to this problem...

we dont shoot anyone.

If we do have a second non-possesed heretic he will only be able to at best kill one player this night, if we dont then no one will be wounded at all, and we can just casualy string up the entrails of Thor as decoration.

First off, Demo, I disagree. Let us say for the sake of argument that we have a second, non-possessed heretic (we have 6 players alive, so 4 innocent and 2 heretic). If we shoot no one then the heretics can kill one tech priest. If you are so assured that I am a traitor then you can shoot me and the heretics can kill, 1 tech priest.

So shoot no one and lose a tech priest (and this presumes I am possessed, and used my power and that the other heretic did nothing last night phase)
Or shoot me (who you claim is a heretic) and lose a tech priest.
What's the difference except that you kill a heretic now as opposed to later?

Second off, if you and Arctik are heretics together your proposed plan assures a heretic victory. Gornall certainly seems less likely to be a heretic then Arctik.

The point is, that there is no question that YOU are in fact a heretic.

actually, yes, there is that question. The only way I am guaranteed to be a heretic is if you are guaranteed to be innocent. The only way to verify if you are indeed innocent is to find out if Arctik is or is not a traitor - which is what I have been suggesting. (of course you and I both know the true answer to that since you chose to call me a heretic, which I submit is why you definitely don't want Arctik shot.)

As I have said before, if I am a traitor my only possible partner is Arctik (or Gornall if you insist on that weak potential plot). Since, if I am working alone, shooting Arctik will enable us to discover if I am indeed guilty or not - we should shoot Arctik and, if he's innocent we know to shoot me because his flipping innocent would prove you are innocent and consequently prove I am guilty.

Even if you're 100% confident I am a heretic it still makes more logical sense to shoot Arctik first because he's my only possible partner. I think you're arguing against it because you know he'll flip traitor and expose you.

Thor665 wrote:actually, yes, there is that question. The only way I am guaranteed to be a heretic is if you are guaranteed to be innocent. The only way to verify if you are indeed innocent is to find out if Arctik is or is not a traitor - which is what I have been suggesting. (of course you and I both know the true answer to that since you chose to call me a heretic, which I submit is why you definitely don't want Arctik shot.)

As I have said before, if I am a traitor my only possible partner is Arctik (or Gornall if you insist on that weak potential plot). Since, if I am working alone, shooting Arctik will enable us to discover if I am indeed guilty or not - we should shoot Arctik and, if he's innocent we know to shoot me because his flipping innocent would prove you are innocent and consequently prove I am guilty.

Even if you're 100% confident I am a heretic it still makes more logical sense to shoot Arctik first because he's my only possible partner. I think you're arguing against it because you know he'll flip traitor and expose you.

Right...

my reasoning is that you are an intelligent player, and an intelligent player wouldnt suggest to do something that would guarentee his loss.

I understand the most logical choice for bystanders is to kill AF, then kill Thor. There is a possibility that you have a partner in crime, and because of that chance, killing AF would result in your win.

If the known Imperials want to kill AF first, im not stopping them, but as someone who knows the truth, I urge you to kill Thor.

Demogerg wrote:my reasoning is that you are an intelligent player, and an intelligent player wouldnt suggest to do something that would guarentee his loss.

I appreciate the compliment. I might even go so far to suggest that the reason I'm suggesting doing what I say is because it will not guarantee my loss because I am a loyalist.

Let's even go with your concept that I'm a traitor.

If I'm working alone we'll shoot Arctik - he'll flip loyal, I'll then be shot the next day and Imperium wins. Huzzah us!
If I'm not working alone then you cannot be my partner - so my only potential partners are either Gornall or Arctik.

If I'm working with Arctik then shoot him, he'll flip traitor and I'll be shot next. Imperium wins.
It is *only* in the concept of a Thor + Gornall scum team that logic dictates that I should be shot before Arctik. You have not exactly offered much evidence to support Gornall as a traitor, and he has a fair bit to show that he is not a traitor in my opinion.

I will note another setup where shooting me first will not result in an Imperium win...if the scum pair is Demo + Arctik (or I suppose Arctik + Gornall, though again you'd actually have to try to show Gornall as a traitor then, and I don't think you can). If you were teamed with Arctik however it becomes *very* meaningful if I am shot first as then you win and Imperium loses. If Arctik is shot first however, and flips traitor, then we have a solid chance to catch you. (50/50 since his partner will be either me or you)

What was that about intelligent players not suggesting something that would guarantee their loss?

Thor665 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:my reasoning is that you are an intelligent player, and an intelligent player wouldnt suggest to do something that would guarentee his loss.

I appreciate the compliment. I might even go so far to suggest that the reason I'm suggesting doing what I say is because it will not guarantee my loss because I am a loyalist.

Let's even go with your concept that I'm a traitor.

If I'm working alone we'll shoot Arctik - he'll flip loyal, I'll then be shot the next day and Imperium wins. Huzzah us!
If I'm not working alone then you cannot be my partner - so my only potential partners are either Gornall or Arctik.

If I'm working with Arctik then shoot him, he'll flip traitor and I'll be shot next. Imperium wins.
It is *only* in the concept of a Thor + Gornall scum team that logic dictates that I should be shot before Arctik. You have not exactly offered much evidence to support Gornall as a traitor, and he has a fair bit to show that he is not a traitor in my opinion.

I will note another setup where shooting me first will not result in an Imperium win...if the scum pair is Demo + Arctik (or I suppose Arctik + Gornall, though again you'd actually have to try to show Gornall as a traitor then, and I don't think you can). If you were teamed with Arctik however it becomes *very* meaningful if I am shot first as then you win and Imperium loses. If Arctik is shot first however, and flips traitor, then we have a solid chance to catch you. (50/50 since his partner will be either me or you)

What was that about intelligent players not suggesting something that would guarantee their loss?

I understand, but I KNOW you are a traitor.

I understand that I have not been verified as loyal, so my word means less than that of Gornall, Valhal, or Orkeo, but my loyalty has been checked by another, and it could have been anyone who voted for that check, remember that I even gave up control of the laspistol despite my fears of an early shot from the heretics. The potential for Gornalls' position to be a ruse to his true loyalties is the only loose end of this situation.

so we really have 2 choices here, shoot AF or shoot Thor.

Thor votes to shoot AF.
AF votes to shoot AF.
And the one person who KNOWS the truth votes to shoot Thor.

the 3 people whos opinions and votes matter the most have yet to chime in on this situation.

We can either shoot AF, then shoot Thor, and hope there is not a 3rd heretic.

Or we can shoot Thor, then if there is a 3rd heretic we can track him down and kill him as well.

so as you can see, shooting Thor is actually the safer bet, if there are 2 more heretics it gives us a chance at fighting chance to take out the last one, and if not it gives us a clear victory.

If we shoot AF and there is 2 heretics left, then we are guarenteed a loss.

Will someone please shoot Thor?

Valhallan - you mean to tell me you're absolutely certain that Demo is a loyalist? Because that's the only way shooting me first is a good idea. If you're wrong it's auto win for the heretics.

Demogerg wrote:If we shoot AF and there is 2 heretics left, then we are guarenteed a loss.

That's true - but the only way we can shoot Arctik and have two heretics left is if the two heretics are me + Gornall. Do you actually believe Gornall is a traitor?

The only other pairs are me + Arctik and Arctik+ you.

Demogerg wrote:so as you can see, shooting Thor is actually the safer bet, if there are 2 more heretics it gives us a chance at fighting chance to take out the last one, and if not it gives us a clear victory.

If we shoot AF and there is 2 heretics left, then we are guarenteed a loss.

I don't believe this to be true. Frankly, shooting Arctik is the safer bet as either Thor is working alone (which shooting Arctik will prove that and give us time to kill Thor) or Arctik is paired up with either Thor and Demogerg. It is HIGHLY unlikely for me to be a traitor, as on the first night, 3 people were wounded. One was a Tech Priest, one was a traitor, and one was myself. So that means Stynier and myself would have both had to wound ourselves for that scenario to work. And had there actually been "another" secutor, it probably would have lead to both myself and Stynier getting executed... making that a VERY poor strategy if I was a traitor.

To be perfectly frank, I think that either Thor is a traitor alone or Arctik and Demogerg are in cohoots together. I think Demogerg's insistence that Arctik not be shot today is a better indication of guilt then his claims that Thor is a traitor or that I am not a secutor. Also couple that with AF jumping on the chance (at least not consulting first) to investigate Demogerg and you see why we could be suspicious. It's possible that Thor and Arctik could have been playing up their differences to deny a partnership, however, but I still think that is less likely atm. In ANY case, though, shooting Thor today is NOT the best bet. If Demogerg is lying, then shooting Thor leads to the traitors winning. However, shooting Arctik still gives us a solid chance in the other two scenarios. TBH, I really think that Thor is a lone possessed who has been put into a non-winnable position by bad luck on the first night. Each night after the first, only one person has been wounded, up until last night, seeming to give the indication of one surviving tratior. From a purely metagame standpoint, I think having 1/3 of the crew being traitors would almost make the game unwinnable for the loyalists. This does not change my conclusion that Arctik must be shot today however. Either he is an innocent and we are free to shoot Thor tomorrow, or he is guilty and we have a 50/50 chance to win.

I will not be giving up the pistol to either of the Tech Priests, simply because that would allow them to be night-killed and the traitor could potentially use the pistol on an innocent, allowing them to win. If I hold onto the pistol, they can still kill me, but if they fail to get a shot off, they would be marked for quick retaliation and death.

Gornall wrote:

Demogerg wrote:so as you can see, shooting Thor is actually the safer bet, if there are 2 more heretics it gives us a chance at fighting chance to take out the last one, and if not it gives us a clear victory.

If we shoot AF and there is 2 heretics left, then we are guarenteed a loss.

I don't believe this to be true. Frankly, shooting Arctik is the safer bet as either Thor is working alone (which shooting Arctik will prove that and give us time to kill Thor) or Arctik is paired up with either Thor and Demogerg. It is HIGHLY unlikely for me to be a traitor, as on the first night, 3 people were wounded. One was a Tech Priest, one was a traitor, and one was myself. So that means Stynier and myself would have both had to wound ourselves for that scenario to work. And had there actually been "another" secutor, it probably would have lead to both myself and Stynier getting executed... making that a VERY poor strategy if I was a traitor.

To be perfectly frank, I think that either Thor is a traitor alone or Arctik and Demogerg are in cohoots together. I think Demogerg's insistence that Arctik not be shot today is a better indication of guilt then his claims that Thor is a traitor or that I am not a secutor. Also couple that with AF jumping on the chance (at least not consulting first) to investigate Demogerg and you see why we could be suspicious. It's possible that Thor and Arctik could have been playing up their differences to deny a partnership, however, but I still think that is less likely atm. In ANY case, though, shooting Thor today is NOT the best bet. If Demogerg is lying, then shooting Thor leads to the traitors winning. However, shooting Arctik still gives us a solid chance in the other two scenarios. TBH, I really think that Thor is a lone possessed who has been put into a non-winnable position by bad luck on the first night. Each night after the first, only one person has been wounded, up until last night, seeming to give the indication of one surviving tratior. From a purely metagame standpoint, I think having 1/3 of the crew being traitors would almost make the game unwinnable for the loyalists.

I will not be giving up the pistol to either of the Tech Priests, simply because that would allow them to be night-killed and the traitor could potentially use the pistol on an innocent, allowing them to win. If I hold onto the pistol, they can still kill me, but if they fail to get a shot off, they would be marked for quick retaliation and death.

the only thing that has me hung up on shooting arctik is that i think Thor has a trick up his sleeve.

What can he do? If he is truly a possessed, he blew his load last night and will be unable to do anything before we can shoot him.

Further, if I was a traitor, do you really think I would have used my first shot to kill Stynier? I'd have been better off killing the Tech Priest, giving Stynier and I another night to roam free, even killing the other Tech Priest. If I was fast, I could have even got off two shots. Then the loyalists would have been completely screwed. Once again, I think accusing me of being a traitor is grasping at straws. Whether that comes from knowing who a traitor is or actually being a traitor, I don't know yet.

The problem is that Demo has to get hung up on my plan because my plan involves shooting Arctik first - which will expose him. He needs to get that 'Thor shot first' result for a win for his team.

Don't kid yourself Thor... Arctik being a traitor doesn't get you off the hook. He could have been telling the truth about Demogerg (to try and get him as an ally). Had he been "Demogerg is a traitor!", then Demogerg would have known he was a lying traitor. We would then have shot one and probably been better off. Frankly, if Arctik comes back a traitor, I'm torn as to who his partner is.

I'll agree that it's not an absolute as to who to shoot if Arctik flips traitor (I kept referring to it as 50/50 in my examples and logical analysis above). You'll pardon me though if I call a spade a spade - I at least know for myself who the traitor duo is.

I was simply outlining why Demo has to put pressure on the 'shoot Thor first' concept and why I think it's bad to shoot me first because it would translate to autowin for an Arctik+Demo pairing which is what I currently believe we face (and at least for myself have irrefutable evidence that I am right).

Any last analysis? I think our best plan is to shoot Arctik today and if he comes back innocent shot Thor tomorrow. If he comes back traitor, we see what happens and go from there. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I plan on shooting Arctik fairly soon.

I believe that there is a strong argument for shooting Thor. His innocence has not been proved any more than mine - shooting him will confirm Demogerg's loyalty as well. It makes absolutely no sense that I would be in league with Thor.

Thor you do NOT have irrefutable evidence to base your claim on, it is a claim and nothing more. Seeing as how the one who would investigate me was killed, it is all the more damning for you.

Gornall, I feel you have not adressed the option of shooting Thor. Frankly, this in addition to Thor's recent insistence that there are two traitors (which he has expressed as unlikely up until recently), it makes you very suspect. In light of the theory that Stynier may have been a fall-man, and Gornall's refusal to reliquish control of the pistol, I argue that we must continue to debate this. Should Gornall respond to this by shooting me, and my worst fear is realised, there is nothing we can do anyway. Up until now he could have just shot me anyway, so there is that shadow of doubt...

I can state as confidently as Thor can lie - Demogerg's investigation is to be trusted. Do not mistake this action as treachery - Gornall has refused to address shooting Thor. If I am wrong we are all dead anyway. If Thor alone is a traitor then we have nothing to fear. I know only that I and Demogerg are loyal, and that Thor is definitely a traitor therefore.

I grapple Gornall for the pistol.

I could have shot you at any time, but I'm waiting for the group to come to a consensus. I feel that you are the BEST choice to die today, innocent or not. If you are innocent, THOR dies tomorrow and the Titan is saved. If you are guilty, then we have a chance to find the final traitor. However, if you are guilty and we shoot Thor, all is lost!

Someone defend me lest the traitors take the weapon and the Titan!

You have not adressed the possibility of your guilt! I only prevent you from firing so we can discuss this - I made this clear. Your protests are damning indeed.

If I'm guilty, I'm the worst traitor ever. I helped identify and kill my own partner ON THE SECOND DAY. I would have had to done so without knowing if a Secutor existed or not, nor would I have known who likely Tech Priests were. And let's be honest, if there are actually 3 traitors, would there honestly NOT be a secutor? You're grasping at straws... not to mention the gun.

Now YOU say with confidence that there are three traitors. How appropriate.
As I said, I'm probably going to be shot anyway. I ONLY ask that this be discussed, and I am glad that your tongue has slipped, as did Thor's.

I didn't say there WERE. I said IF there were. You're putting words in my mouth trying to save yourself. Your "proof" is nothing more than conjecture. You cannot dispute the fact that my coming forward on Day 2 doomed Stynier to death. I even shoot him with my own hand! If I was truly a traitor, there are so many more ways I could have played that out that would have been more beneficial to the traitors.

Enough with your desperate argument! You made a very authoritan statement regarding your position as secutor, but you have nothing to back it up. Allow the others to join us and debate this, or relinquish the pistol to a Tech-Priest.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Enough with your desperate argument! You made a very authoritan statement regarding your position as secutor, but you have nothing to back it up. Allow the others to join us and debate this, or relinquish the pistol to a Tech-Priest.

You make all sorts of authoritan statements regarding your innocence with MUCH less to back it up than what I have said. I relish having others debate this, hence why I haven't shot you up until now. My only fear is that Demogerg will take the pistol and shoot Thor, allowing you both to take control of the vessel.

[d]b]defend Gornall[/b]

((I'll catch up on your thoughts in a moment))

Defend Gornall

/breathes a sigh of relief...

With Thor defending me, I don't have to worry about Demogerg getting the pistol.

You know what... I have PROOF that Thor and I are not in it together. If we were, I would have shot someone while I was still in control of the pistol and the game would have ended. Why debate anything?!?!

GORNALL! If you are innocent, discuss this reasonably. If you are not, act, you damned fool traitor!

I have already proved myself... by not shooting anyone as soon as the day began. If I was a traitor with someone, that would have ended the game.

The fact is, if I shoot someone and the game continues, you know that I'm not in league with ANYONE. I can't be alone, as there would be no way to have caused three wounds without either a Secutor or three traitors in the mix. With that said, the traitors could have stolen that gun and it would have been over:

Shoot Arctik!!!!

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I believe that there is a strong argument for shooting Thor. His innocence has not been proved any more than mine - shooting him will confirm Demogerg's loyalty as well. It makes absolutely no sense that I would be in league with Thor.

Shooting me will tell us about Demo's identity - however since the only person Demo can partner with is you - shooting me might leave two heretics as opposed to one. You're the most likely partner for either Demo or I and can be a traitor regardless of his or my own loyalty. That's why you're the logical next one to be shot, not me.

Thor you do NOT have irrefutable evidence to base your claim on,

Re-read me - I said irrefrutable for *me*. I know I'm innocent, so I know Demo is a traitor. I never claimed it was irrefutable for everyone, that's why I call it a 50/50 between Demo and I.

Seeing as how the one who would investigate me was killed, it is all the more damning for you.

Maybe - but it's equally damning to you since it prevents us from knowing your innocence.

this in addition to Thor's recent insistence that there are two traitors (which he has expressed as unlikely up until recently), it makes you very suspect.

I did express it as unlikely until recently because to my mind it was unlikely. However, when Demo called me a traitor (which I know is not true) I knew he ahd to be a traitor. You had earlier investigated him and found him innocent - therefore if Demo is a traitor so are you. That's why I now believe there are two traiotrs because with the evidence in front of me it is the only conclusion to draw.

In light of the theory that Stynier may have been a fall-man, and Gornall's refusal to reliquish control of the pistol, I argue that we must continue to debate this. Should Gornall respond to this by shooting me, and my worst fear is realised, there is nothing we can do anyway. Up until now he could have just shot me anyway, so there is that shadow of doubt...

I will note it has been you, Demo, and to a lesser extent Valhallan who have been calling for quick shots. Gornall has, from the beginning, requested conversation and discussion on this matter. You're the one who seems to be jumping at shadows.

Gornall has refused to address shooting Thor.

To a degree he has. Even Demo has agreed with me that logically you are the best person to shoot first. If you want to address shooting me why don't you explain how it ensures an Imperium victory? If I am working alone as you seem to intimate, then shooting you first will prove that and guarantee an Imperium victory - so why not shoot you first?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Now YOU say with confidence that there are three traitors.

No, he didn't.

Gornall wrote:And let's be honest, if there are actually 3 traitors, would there honestly NOT be a secutor?

Arctik, seriously, why proclaim that you're using logic and then grab at stuff? If Gornall and I were traitors together we already would have won because Gornall could have shot you or Demo right at the begining of this phase, we could have nightkilled both tech priests, and then shot whoever was left. There is no way Gornall and I are heretics together because we wouldn't have bothered talking! You and Demo however keep trying to spread lies and grab guns - you're the traitors.

If Gornall is a traitor, we're already damned. Emperor have mercy on us now, it lies in his hands.

¤gasps¤

I die with honour...

End of Turn 4 Day

Arctik is knocked back into his moderati control station sub-throne clutching at the burn in his chest. As he breathes his last, a serenity comes over his features--the final blip of his augmetic ocular enhancement no doubt glimpsed the Omnissiah: a reward for the faithful heart.

Arctik was a Titan Crewman.

((I'm jumping the gun here a bit Manchu, and I apologize, but I wanted to make sure this went up before I was shot))

Well, I could try to argue once again for some debate via logic how I should not be shot - but I would have to start using logic that is so bad it actually slightly pains my head to even think about it. Therefore...

Lupercal! Lupercal!

wrest laspistol

By the eight pointed star your ensconced cadaver shall be of no more protection to your pathetic lives! I shall serve no more within the knee joint you besotted fools, for mine is the right to lead, and upon claiming of this machine I shall be allowed to Walk across your homeworlds until they burn as with the red light of Mars itself!

For CHAOS!

((OOC: Feel free to do what must be done, all of you.))

GRAPPLE THOR

((will that count as an additional post after mine once I wrest the weapon from his amazingly solid grip?))

LOL... I was so excited that I forgot that I had control.

Gornall wrote:GRAPPLE THOR

Puny fool, you should stand with me on this glorious road! I will allow you to grease my pauldrons. They will have skulls on them - lots of skulls!

Grappling? This isn't D&D! Rules are still in effect: Gornall controls, Thor is wresting. If anyone wants to fall to Chaos, now is your chance to declare for the ruinous powers and help Thor out. Otherwise, the result of this game of Heretic will be a solid +2 point standard victory for the Imperium. But I will leave it open for a bit to see if Thor can lure anyone with the power of the Warp.

Eventually, I'd like feedback. I'm so impressed with everyone. You guys are amazing. Most recently, Arctik had moments of Oscar-worthy pathos. Simply astounding.

::standing ovation for all players::

Gornall wrote:LOL... I was so excited that I forgot that I had control.

LOL indeed! Sound kinda dirty there, Gornall.

Well, for starters Chaos shall allow you to grapple man things without fear of having it called dirty.

Also, we'll allow you a lot of specialization and options. We'll let you pick what ruinous power you wish to serve and allow you to stand alongside others geared in ways that agree with you.

Then later we'll just tell you you're "Undivided" now and that you better get use to following Slaanesh princes leading Obliterator squads against the Imperium. Hey, at least we give you a knife with your pistol, so that's a sweet deal!

Thor665 wrote:Well, for starters Chaos shall allow you to grapple man things without fear of having it called dirty.

Also, we'll allow you a lot of specialization and options. We'll let you pick what ruinous power you wish to serve and allow you to stand alongside others geared in ways that agree with you.

Then later we'll just tell you you're "Undivided" now and that you better get use to following Slaanesh princes leading Obliterator squads against the Imperium. Hey, at least we give you a knife with your pistol, so that's a sweet deal!

LMAO

We've seen through your plots, you disgusting wretch. The warpfires of the abyss will strip the flesh from your decrepit husk.

Defend Gornall.

Grapple the laspistol for himself

I want to kill the bastard myself. someone hold the scum down.

Shoots Thor!!!

BOOM HEADSHOT!!!!

50% Traitor shooting percentage ain't bad... You could almost promote me to an Imperial Guardsmen.

NINJAED!!!!

Edit: Let's finish this please.

Thor665 wrote:Also, we'll allow you a lot of specialization and options. We'll let you pick what ruinous power you wish to serve and allow you to stand alongside others geared in ways that agree with you.

Then later we'll just tell you you're "Undivided" now and that you better get use to following Slaanesh princes leading Obliterator squads against the Imperium. Hey, at least we give you a knife with your pistol, so that's a sweet deal!

From hell's heart I stab at thee!

Cease defending Gornall.

Wrest pistol away.

How the heck does that work?

i dunno lol

leaps on Thor, stabs him in the face with his icon of the Omnissiah!

No more shenanigans... shoot Thor and be done with it.

Valhallan42nd wrote:leaps on Thor, stabs him in the face with his icon of the Omnissiah!

And we thought "grappling" sounded dirty....

I grip my pistol and shoot Thor with my load, all over his face and chest and down his throat.

Wait a minute - you guys seem like you don't like me. This isn't how I imagined it at all.

::starts crying a little bit till you have to glance away in shame.::

Die you lickers of dead Emperor's balls! ::bites Demo's ankle::

That'll end the game.

VICTORIA IMPERIALIS

So what did everyone think?

Orkeosaurus wrote:I grip my pistol and shoot Thor with my load, all over his face and chest and down his throat.

::I swallow it all, a look of surprise on my face. I manage to gasp out::

How could you without...warning?

::I then finish, falling all over your feet.::

Fun game. The roles were neat enough, and the servo skulls were kind of interesting. Near the end I was really putting together as many scenarios as I could, to try and divine the possible outcomes, so that's a good sign.

Manchu wrote:So what did everyone think?

I still think we should shoot Demo next, he's acting pretty scummy.

Overall pretty fun. I still stand by my comment to you at the beginning of the game that I thought the Secutor was a bit game breaking in the Imperium's favor.

FOR THE ALLFATHER! HES ALIVE!.

*starts kicking madly*

:: Arctik suddenly lifts his head, and looks around smartly. ::

"No, actually Gornalldrick, I'm not dead. You see, I had a cigarillo-box too - look...

Oh damn...

I must have left it on the dresser."

:: He promptly dies. ::

Great game, Manchu, and well played Thor, you scum-sucking scum! Apologies for the post-shot post/gasp/comment, but it was kind of the decider anyway.

I had no fear in trying to heroically kill Thor myself, because the only other thing that could have happened was me getting shot! That and I was damned worried about the possibility of Gornall being a traitor who had self-wounded along with Stynier on the first night. Better to be a hero!

Thor665 wrote:

Manchu wrote:So what did everyone think?

Overall pretty fun. I still stand by my comment to you at the beginning of the game that I thought the Secutor was a bit game breaking in the Imperium's favor.

Yeah... I don't know about that either. Part of it was extremely bad luck on your guy's part (both a Secutor AND a Tech Priest on Night 1), so it's hard to judge.

Yeah... Arctik, you had me freaking out... I thought for SURE Demogerg was going to take the pistol away and shoot Thor. I should have realized earlier how to argue that if I was guilty, the game was already over.

Thor, what was your strategy to try to eke out a win? I know you were behind the 8-ball early. At least we didn't go with the strategy of me releasing one skull a day. Then you'd have been hosed for sure.

That last bit of drama - the idea that we could not be certain if there was a secutor - was something I enjoyed a lot. Truly, it broke the game a little for Thor... but the special character ideas were good and original. Do you have any plans for improvement on this concept, Manchu?

I think the Secutor provides a nice twist, but I would think about only using that role in games with at least 3 traitors (aka larger games). That way the traitors have a way to mask their attacks etc. However, I still don't know if it would have been such a game changer had a Tech Priest had also gotten caught on the first day. Likewise, I think Stynier could have played it off some and really thrown things for a loop. I'm still fairly new to these games, so I dunno.

Gornall wrote:Thor, what was your strategy to try to eke out a win? I know you were behind the 8-ball early. At least we didn't go with the strategy of me releasing one skull a day. Then you'd have been hosed for sure.

To be honest, once you had killed Stynier you all could have just waited for the deadline and I couldn't have won. My goal was primarily to play for the most kills I saw as possible for me to achieve (3, huzzah me!). I boasted to Stynier and Manchu that such was my goal and both seemed a little uncertain on my chances. But there are certain advantages to knowing you cannot win and to be playing for a goal that everyone else doesn't expect. I knew once the skulls went out I was toast, so I just tried to set up enough logical loops to put me in the best place possible i could to get multiple kills.

Honestly I had planned to kill whoever investigated Demo - since I knew he'd be an easy target to get lynched. But Arctik actually jumped the gun on me and I missed that he had deployed. Still, it worked out okay since I still had a lot of uncertainty to work with. It was hard to have to walk the line with giving Arctik's deployment plan (which I did NOT want used) just enough attention to cover myself but not enough to gve it much credence. I'm sure it was annoying for him since he knew I was ducking him to some degree but was having a hard time proving I was.

I also loved Gornall as the Secutor. Because I really agree with his playstyle because it's similar to mine...as a result I was able to predict him fairly well and manipulate Arctik and Demo into saying and demanding things that I knew Gornall would pick up on as suspicious. I knew as soon as I defended Gornall he would shoot Arctik (it's priceless we also both figured out the perfect defense of Gornall as not a traitor at basically the exact same time though. Like I said, we thought similar.)

What was Arctik's deployment plan?

Arctik_Firangi wrote:That last bit of drama - the idea that we could not be certain if there was a secutor - was something I enjoyed a lot. Truly, it broke the game a little for Thor... but the special character ideas were good and original. Do you have any plans for improvement on this concept, Manchu?

Yes, I would like to sharpen things up for another game after we've all had some down time. Who would be interested?

The laspistol mechanic kind of let me down. I expected there to be much more fighting over it but the rules I wrote didn't encourage that well enough. As I mentioned to Thor in PM (and I must say I was more sure than he was that he could get three kills ), you guys basically ditched the laspistol mechanic for traditional voting once you accepted Gornall as the secutor. Gornall already said as much but it's worth repeating: this game went badly for Chaos from the start. A couple of dead titan crewman and we might have seen a lot more wrestling for the gun. But those who stayed in did such a great job any way. I have to say again how impressed I am.

So takers on a Heretic! Game 2? I was thinking of starting another in a couple of weeks.

Some of the rules from this game need sharpening and I hope you'll share your opinions with me. Although I'd like to carry some of these mechanics over into a game two (and let's not forget, the Imperium is currently up by two points), there will also be new rules. As a little preview, if game 2 happens it will almost certainly be from the perspective of Chaos.

Also, Stynier get in here!

@Arctik: Black Adder jokes are always welcome.

Im down for game 2.

I'm down for game two... but I would like a week or so break. That one day of breaking down every deployment strategy possible was a bit much.

Yeah, it won't be for a while. Have to write rules and all. That took a week last time and this time I want to consider it more carefully with the lessons from this game in mind.

Could you guys critique specific elements?

- having wounds

- servo skulls

- laspistol instead of vote

- wresting away rules

- secutor

- possessed heretic

- whatever other variations I've not listed

Gornall wrote:What was Arctik's deployment plan?

That would have been:

Gornall investigates Thor (Thor didn't want this because he'd have to take a wound to shut you up)
One/both of the techpriests and/or Demogerg investigates Mekboy/Lord-Loss
I get shot to prove Demogerg's innocence.

There was an alternate two-skulls-then-one plan... it involved Gornall+Demo investigating, me being shot, then Gornall investigating someone else if required.

If there is a game 2, would I be able to join in? I take it as it's OK to post in here since the game has been finished.

Yeah, I think the problem with those plans was if we actually had 2 traitors. That was my big thing, I wanted us to play "prevent" defense in case we actually had two traitors. Against only one, we would have had to try to lose it.

I like the wound mechanic. I think the pistol mechanic needs some more clarification as we had several confusing moments. Servo skulls are good, but I think the "last one who votes deploys it" mechanic is a little too cumbersome, IMO. Maybe have someone declare "I'm deploying against so and so" and then have people vote on it.

Arheiner wrote:If there is a game 2, would I be able to join in? I take it as it's OK to post in here since the game has been finished.

You certainly may post here now and I will keep you in mind when I PM people about game 2.

Manchu wrote:Yeah, it won't be for a while. Have to write rules and all. That took a week last time and this time I want to consider it more carefully with the lessons from this game in mind.

Could you guys critique specific elements?

- having wounds

I liked. It made for some interesting actions possible for the heretics.

- servo skulls

I liked the concept. However, trying to manage the person the servo skull was going to investigate and the person who receives the investigation was a little tricky.

- laspistol instead of vote

- wresting away rules

This one I'm kind of ambivalent about. It didn't seem to cause many problems in this game, but what if Gornall was a heretic near the end? He could have shot someone dead before they had a chance to respond. It might put a little too much emphasis on getting to the thread fast. I mean, you can have heretic one grab it, heretic two post, and heretic one shoot someone. Or heretic one wrest, heretic two wrest, heretic one post, and heretic two shoot. In either case, the day can be over in a minute.

- secutor

Pretty powerful role. A good one, although maybe too powerful to be in the same game with only two enemies.

- possessed heretic

Interesting. It kept people on their toes, with the possibility that there were two heretics left.

- whatever other variations I've not listed

One thing that was a slightly annoying was the heretics being labeled as "heretic tech-priests", since it made the term "tech-priest" sort of ambiguous (it could theoretically mean one of two roles). The game ending in three days was a little sudden at first, but when I got used to it I started to like it more than the three week time limit. After the first week the interest kind of peters out, and it might still be another two weeks of waiting around before people feel compelled to do something.


Have you considered switching the mechanics for the killing and the deployment of servo skulls? I.e. Take servo skull. Wrest away servo skull from Orkeo. Defend Orkeo. Deploy servo skull against Valhallan.

Then have a regular voting mechanism in place for the kills.

So Gornall and Orkeo liked wounds, didn't think laspistol worked well, and think servo skull should be refined (I really like both suggestions, too).

In my opinion, laspistol was supposed to change play the most. Servo skulls were supposed to be a balancing mechanism. The skulls became a bit too much of a net, I thought, and I probably won't use them again unless somebody works out a killer system for them.

As to 3 day limits, something short like this will remain for sure although I'm open to the specific time period. The three weeks is a little too much given that we're all regulars.

I think a week is a better choice. Three weeks is way too long, but 3 days seemed to be rushing it. I think the skulls were a very valuable part of the gameplay, as they provided more discussion than anything else. I wouldn't axe them completely.

I'm also down for game 2. I'm sorry that I was not as involved. I have some papers due that crept up on me.

I will say that I had thor pegged from the start. He was being too talkative.

I thought you participated well, as usual, Val. There is no exaggerating how good a group this was. I was actually sad to see each person go because everyone makes such good contributions. It was a real pity to lose Stynier first, most especially for Thor.

My inital participation was crucial. Once we got stynier out, it was somewhat a done deal. It was also poor luck on their part to hit the secutor first round.

I don't know why stynier didn't claim to be a secutor. Then it would have been a word vs word situation. True, he's likely to die the next round, but at least then he might have taken the secutor out.

I also don't know why they spread their attacks out. "Remove whole models where applicable"

Valhallan42nd wrote:I will say that I had thor pegged from the start. He was being too talkative.

Remind me not to play you when I'm loyalist. I'm always talkative.

Valhallan42nd wrote:I also don't know why they spread their attacks out. "Remove whole models where applicable"

Because of the servo skulls. The advantage they brought was huge, and consequently the ability to potentially kill multiple investigators/investigatees in one fell swoop was equally huge. Recall how much pressure was put on everyone when both tech priests had one wound each and could have been killed in a single night action? That's important pressure for scum to keep Imperium under in my opinion.

Manchu wrote:- having wounds

An interesting mechanic. Overall I find it good - but I will note it raises the difficulty level on heretics if they lose one of their team early. A lone heretic can only kill a person every other night phase, which doesn't leave too much of a threat on the town. I tried to pressure this as much as I could, but it was difficult. I'm not sure I have an easy solution and overall I really like the psychology of the wound system so don't think I want it scrapped. I just think it needs potential review moving forward.

- servo skulls

I had not fully considered the implications of a mass release. Mass release of role revealing devices is incredibly difficult for scum to battle in a system with hitpoints. There is a reason the end of the game moved away from roleplay and moved into "If A investigates B he will either find him guilty or innocent. If B is innocent then C must be innocent as well, but..." Now, I quite enjoy logic puzzles like that, but I get the feeling that it was not the way you hoped the game would evolve. Removing the servo skulls would certainly move it back towards more generalized questioning and scum tells discussion and away from the logic puzzle aspect.

- laspistol instead of vote

I'll admit I'm a big fan of the voting system, but laspistol possession raises some interesting conundrums. It's still potentially overpowered though because of the ability for quick shots by heretics coming off of a Night Phase. If both Stynier and I had lasted till Day 3 we could have basically coordinated some oddball time to snag the pistol and go to work, and probably could have rolled the loyalists quite easily even if they had still outnumbered us substantially. The only time it really seemed to be shining was near the end when Arctik tried to tackle Gornall.

- wresting away rules

Works in progress. We found a couple clarifications to be made in this play through. Probably we'll blunder into another next time. I might suggest changing the wresting rules so that the second wrest attempt actually gives the laspistol to the person who initiated the wrest. That would prevent wrest initiators from moving into a zone where it's impossible for them to get a laspistol. Also it will then make the wrest initiator's demands for help in wresting more of a legitimate choice for whoever swoops in.

- secutor

I still think he's unbalancing, though I will clarify that to say 'in a game this small.' Yeah, it was bad luck that we hit a tech priest and the secutor with our first targets - but with 9 players, 2 of which are heretics and 3 of which are power roles statistically it was not that difficult of an event to have happen. Also, techpriests are a *very* potent role already. To be frank, Demogerg was right that they should have basically declared Day 1 (though perhaps optimal is Day 2). Tech priests declaring gives the town 2 verifiable absolute guaranteed town players (in a 9 player game). Heretics can't even try to counter claim, as 1-2 laspistol shots will verify which pair is to be trusted. That is a HUGE advantage to root out scum. To then throw in a power role who is basically immune to night kill since he'll mark his killer (twice) and is almost self-verifiable as well...it's a tough win condition for heretics (unless there had been 3 regular heretics, I'll concede, but then we'd have too few vanilla roles). The secutor is good, but is exceedingly powerful especially when paired with self verifiable power roles like tech priests. There really needs to be a secutor or tech priests in a 9 player game, and leave it open that it's either or. That way the heretics won't know if they should self wound to avoid secutors or claim as tech priests. It also prevents tech priests from claiming day 1 or 2 since town cannot afford to trust a tech priest claim since they can't be assured they are tech priests or heretics.

- possessed heretic

Too powerful if there's three heretics in a 9 player game (which is almost broken in favor of heretics). Probably fairly balanced for 2 heretics in 9. The multi wound power certainly helped me get Arctik shot.



Also, just as a random note. On Day One; I was well aware it was a three day deadline but kept my mouth shut because no one else had mentioned it. Did that sneak up on any of you guys as much as I hoped it had?

Thor665 wrote:

Also, just as a random note. On Day One; I was well aware it was a three day deadline but kept my mouth shut because no one else had mentioned it. Did that sneak up on any of you guys as much as I hoped it had?

Indeed it did. I thought we had more time.

Im down for game 2. I'l try to be a little more involved.

Maybe you should put a timer on how long you can hold the pistol for.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Also, just as a random note. On Day One; I was well aware it was a three day deadline but kept my mouth shut because no one else had mentioned it. Did that sneak up on any of you guys as much as I hoped it had?

Indeed it did. I thought we had more time.

Ditto... that really threw me for a loop.

Thank gawd. The discussion of the mass release had gotten enough traction by that point I was praying for the night phase just to allow Stynier and myself some time to strategize.

Thor665 wrote:Thank gawd. The discussion of the mass release had gotten enough traction by that point I was praying for the night phase just to allow Stynier and myself some time to strategize.

Yup... I think having loyalists declare Tech Priests immediately and mass release skulls is a pretty strong tactic. You could even do something like TP1 investigates Suspect1, TP2 investigates Suspect2, and either have each of the suspects investigate another suspect, or even have both of them investigate the same person for some verification. I like the idea of having either the Tech Priests or the Secutor, because it adds more unknowns to the equation, making it less of a logic puzzle exercise. However, does that swing the balance too hard the other way? I dunno.

For the record, I think we should all remember we just made Dakka-Mafia history with the first Townie kill of a Traitor and the first Townie Victory!

It took us four games

My record is pretty strong so far, 2-1

Well that was... interesting...

Just because I feel it always helps to know what people were or were not hinking as they played through a game - I'll offer up a quick rundown of my activities and goals.

Prior to game
I tell Manchu I think Imperium will have some advantages, especially with a Secutor role. My role PM is for a possessed heretic. ::mutter, mutter:: Still, I get Stynier as a partner, and I think he can be a cunning guy, so that's a plus.

Game Day 1
Can't talk to Stynier until night one so I just open up my play trying to act pretty much like I would if I was a pro-Imperium role. I even try to agree with things that seem logically to me to be more likely to help catch Stynier and I. I start to feel a lot of pressure once talk about role claims for tech priests and the mass servo release come up. Egads! I liked how Stynier managed to end up against tech priest reveal while I was on the pro side. I also appreciated that Valhallan was against immediate release as it let me play up trying to act like I was seeking consensus while also slowing things down while waiting for deadline to hit. (even had some PMs with Manchu where he was nce enough to say he wouldn't announce the upcoming deadline out loud)

Game Night 1
*whew* made it. Got to say hey to Stynier and discuss out whom we should stab and other ideas as regards trying to protect ourselves from mass skull release. I came up with the inflict one wound on two people concept, to which Stynier agreed since we couldn't afford to double stab someone with a possible Secutor out there. I offered up a preference to stab either Demo or Valhallan (with a leaning for Valhallan) since I figured at that point it would be easy to cast some doubt on the other one due to their squabble over the pistol and other ideas. Stynier agreed and made the choice for a random stab at Gornall - that I agreed was a good idea since Gornall usually uses a lot of logic, and you don't always want the logical ones lasting too long in these games. So, I stabbed Valhallan and Stynier stabbed Gornall

Game Day 2
...who happened to be a tech priest and a Secutor respectively. Uf da! At this point it was damage control. Stynier probably should have screamed that he was the Secutor, but probably thought it safer to go the innocent route (which just meant he could get Valhallan possibly shot which is almost as good as if he'd declared Secutor and gotten Gornall possibly shot.) Then Valhallan turned out to be tech priest - lesson for heretics, always claim Secutor if you get wounded by a Secutor. Always. I went into full on "helpful innocent" mode and even went so far as to put myself on the side agreeing that Stynier should be shot (though I was trying to drop a few possible doubts as regards Gornall - they would come back to help later). Stynier is shot, and thankfully because we were focusing on him he was shot without us planning out what to do with the servo skulls - a minor win foe me I felt.

Game Night 2
this was a lonely night. I Actually already knew what I was doing by the end of Day 2, but I intentionally took a long time to get back to Manchu in the hopes of breeding the concept that there were still at least 2 heretics alive (I don't know if it worked or not, but I figured it couldn't hurt). Manchu helped a bit too, innocently, because he had to get back and verify that my stab on Orkeo was indeed a single wound stab, not a Possessed super stab. Knowing that I needed to be ready for the near unavoidable servo-skull release on Day 3 I stuck to the single stab in order to make it possible for me to kill either tech priest I needed to without having to burn my possessed double tap power. I also *totally missed* Arctik deploying against Demo - I had always originally intended on Night 3 to kill whoever investigated Demo since I knew he'd be an easy guy to get shot due to various suspicions of him. A mistake I thought would cost me my third kill, so as Day 3 started I was already uneasy.

Game Day 3
This was the most difficult day because it was the hardest for me. To be honest, a lot of my logical breakdowns of various plans was quite useful because *I* needed that information. I was making all the best options for heretics and asking for help from you guys basically to make sure I'd have a good plan sorted out going into the Night Phase. My goal was, of course, to be an investigator - however with so few people left alive I knew that would be hard to swing. Barring that I wanted Arctik to be the one to investigate me or for it to be Demo but without Arctik being shot. I had always sort of wanted the round robin plan, so I had to try to paint it as at *least* as good as any other plan. I already mentioned how I had to dance around Arctik's plan a bit, since his would have been hard for me to deal with comfortably. I also absolutely was against any plan with Gornall investigating me, as then the gig would be up. I worked hard to stay buried in logic so I would seem relatively neutral and I also tried not to particularly come out for any plan. T'was a godsend when Gornall finally offered up his extended round robin plan, because it could work perfectly for my needs. I was able to include Arctik in the loop that way and was able to get Mekboy shot fairly easily simply because he hadn't been talking much. (silence always helps heretics). I tried to stay mostly neutral on most topics otherwise, but would come down strong when anyone said anything that I could defend because of the rules - it helped me seem strongly opinionated without having to expose too much.

Game Night 3
Again I delayed a bit intentionally to act as though there might be two heretics, but again my kill action was predetermined. I couldn't allow Arctik to be found innocent as that would prove Demo was innocent. If I had killed Demo and LL had verified Arctik my goose would have been cooked. Thankfully a scum Arctik-Demo team would have the same actions as a possessed Thor team, and I knew I could work the odds in the next day. Lord-Loss was super stabbed and I was happily content I could get Arctik shot on the morrow (his growing suspicion of me without being able to put a finger on what exactly I was doing was also helping because he was becoming frustrated that no one else really saw it or commented on it. One of his most helpful posts was when he attacked my non-review of his plan while also commenting on pretty much the only thing I had reviewed. This allowed me to turn the attack back on him and point out how *he* was obviously being the scummy guy in the exchange.)

Game Day 4
This was the funnest day because I knew my fate was sealed so it was just a matter of seeing if I could convince everyone (or at least Gornall) to shoot Arctik first. I knew going in that Demo would out me, but I suspected Arctik would be a little hot headed and Demo had a good chance of being equally vociferous when I cooly disregarded his absolute knowledge of my scummishness. All I had to do was stay cool and rational, which is what Gornall had been trying to do as well, and I knew I would not be shot. Arctik's quick call for my shooting was very beneficial for me because I was able to early place myself as someone calling for cooler heads and more information (I suspect Arctik had been 90% certain about me on Day 3, and now finally had some more solid evidence to hop on). I calmy assured everyone Demo would clear me and that we now had our traitor in Arctik. But then, *gasp* Demo calls me a traitor! The fiend! I painted the very ominous picture of them as a scum pair and offered up the quite clearly logical point that shooting Arctik first was our best strategy. I did have one very uneasy moment where both Arctik and Demo were online and no one else was. I ended up lurking around just to be there to hopefully prevent a gun wresting that could have ended with me being shot. (it was late at night and I had to be up early for work the next day too - you jerks!)

My absolute favorite interactions in the game were with Demo on Day 4. He KNEW I was a lying scum heretic. But he was equally convinced I had to have some sort of plan that he couldn't see, so he had to keep battling against my logic (which was unassailable logic at that). It couldn't have been planned better, because his insistence on doing something that wasn't logical helped paint the Arctik+Demo pairing even clearer for everyone. I also loved how I got to keep pointing out how my only logical partner was either Arctik or Gornall. Arctik - knowing for a fact he wasn't a traitor - then had to get suddenly suspicious of Gornall, which I knew would help cement in Gornall's mind the need to shoot Arctik before me. The last minute wrest attempt for the gun was the nail in the coffin, when I got to sweep in and defend Gornall I was the clear innocent and it was all over for Arctik.

Then I was shot a lot of times in a way that felt slightly intrusive to my personal space. (though I did appreciate some of the genuine seeming satisfaction in murdering me you all had - methinks that's a mark of a good traitor)

A good game and also my first time ever playing scum, it was quite informative.

I was in line with Arctiks feelings that you were the heretic when I noticed how you danced around and adjusted all the round-robin release plans even though they all has nearly the same success percentages. Just like AF I couldnt put my finger on it.

By day 3 I was pretty sure we had won, and I was just trying to stretch it out, when the servo skull came back on day 4 with you as a heretic it became obvious that the game was over, so I just decided to play the insistant fool for dramatic effect.

it worked, and many lulz were had by all.

Despite my feeling that he was a traitor, I couldn't go after Thor. If we killed the guy who ran our other two games outright on the first day, I would have felt guilty as all hell.

Demogerg wrote:By day 3 I was pretty sure we had won, and I was just trying to stretch it out, when the servo skull came back on day 4 with you as a heretic it became obvious that the game was over, so I just decided to play the insistant fool for dramatic effect.

Aww. For the record I'd rather be caught on Day 2 by people trying their hardest then on Day 4 to stretch things out. I was trying my hardest the whole durn time.

Thor665 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:By day 3 I was pretty sure we had won, and I was just trying to stretch it out, when the servo skull came back on day 4 with you as a heretic it became obvious that the game was over, so I just decided to play the insistant fool for dramatic effect.

Aww. For the record I'd rather be caught on Day 2 by people trying their hardest then on Day 4 to stretch things out. I was trying my hardest the whole durn time.

You did a good job of keeping the idea that two traitors were still out there going. Because of that, we couldn't focus on the single traitor angle, and instead had to cover all possibilities. When Stynier came back guilty, I pretty much knew we had it won if there was a single traitor... it was just a matter of how many days it took. But because we couldn't be sure about that, we had to really drag it out, allowing you to get some extra kills. I REALLY wanted to investigate you, but because of the possibility of there being two traitors, I think the round-robin was a better play for us. On day Arctik got shot, no matter much I thought you were a traitor (which is the direction I was leaning until Arctik tried to take the gun), I couldn't be sure enough to give a two-traitor team an instant win if we shot the wrong person that day. Very good job of stretching it out as long as you could.

Thor665 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:By day 3 I was pretty sure we had won, and I was just trying to stretch it out, when the servo skull came back on day 4 with you as a heretic it became obvious that the game was over, so I just decided to play the insistant fool for dramatic effect.

Aww. For the record I'd rather be caught on Day 2 by people trying their hardest then on Day 4 to stretch things out. I was trying my hardest the whole durn time.

Heh. I was trying pretty hard near the end. I went over every possibility (including the fact that Gornall could have shot someone by now if he was the traitor. I didn't want to say it for fear that he'd do it, though).

Killing you instead of Arctik really would have been pretty illogical, though. What's the worth of a crewman's life compared the majesty of the God Emperor embodied in fire and steel?

Very impressive post there, Thor.

I think this game became too much a logic puzzle. What would you guys think about a game where you could put RP elements to more strategic use?

Orkeosaurus wrote:What's the worth of a crewman's life compared the majesty of the God Emperor embodied in fire and steel?

Well spoken, sir.

BL

Manchu wrote:I think this game became too much a logic puzzle. What would you guys think about a game where you could put RP elements to more strategic use?

I agree that it did turn into a big logic puzzle. I think that the skulls really encourage that. Voting is what really provides the opportunity to do some lying/manipulating/etc that makes for some interesting games. The pistol provides the opportunity for that too, but because it only requires 2-3 people on any given day, I think the scale is much more limited.

Manchu wrote:What would you guys think about a game where you could put RP elements to more strategic use?

What do you mean?

Giving you the ability to make a character who's attributes/abilities matter to the game rather than everything being a discussion. I'm thinking of creating a non-Mafia message board game to explore some of these ideas before writing up the next Heretic! rules. I like Mafia a lot but it can be kind of exhausting for the players. I'm currently in KilKrazy's PBeM EnGarde! game but think that's a bit overwhelming and too long-term. This game lasted 18 days, which I think is a shortish-to-appropriate length.

I'll pretty much echo Gornall's comments. The skulls tend to make the game more logic puzzle, the pistol actually also holds back a certain amount of drama because people can be shot if only two or three people suspect them as opposed to lynched with a majority. As a result there's less need to try to sell others on your viewpoint.

I will say I'm not for RP elements along the lines of Drk_O's game if that's what you're talking - as I usually like my rules up front and understood by all. But a game featuring roleplay as an important aspect could be attractive depending on how it's done.

I don't mean having surprises. The general set-up that I'm working with is that the players are Chaos Space Marines competing for favor with the Warp Gods. You start with a pool of points that you can use to buy attributes and wargear. I'm a bit hazy still on how it will work, but you can then interact with NPCs, events, and ultimately even challenge one another to level, which comes in the form of Chaos god "favor" and added abilities. The ultimate goal is to be the last man standing. That player will ascend to daemonhood. The point is to balance it so that there are enough mechanics to keep it interesting but that it is also simple enough to keep it playable at a quick-to-even pace over about a month or so. I'm not sure if I will incorporate a "guess who the scum is" mechanic, but I'm leaning toward not doing so. The point of this exercise, other than having a good time, is to test how RP elements can work or not work on a message board.

Manchu wrote:Very impressive post there, Thor.

I think this game became too much a logic puzzle. What would you guys think about a game where you could put RP elements to more strategic use?

Well, we were playing worshippers of the Machine God. Logical processers and all that, what-what, cheerio.

I was thinking about this:

Instead of tech priests, start the game with one Devout. The Devout gets the night action of "Make Contact" where they can attempt to reach out to another player during the night cycle. If they choose wisely, and get another pro-town player, they can PM them during successive night phases. If they choose poorly, and get an anti-town player, they die during that night phase. They can perform this action only twice during a game.

Instead of the Servo Skulls or an Inqusitor, there is a Monitor, who has a secret panel of video monitors in their room to watch during the night cycle. If they monitor anyone who takes an action during the night, such as a Devout or an anti-townie, then that person is noted as "out of bed". If they happen to observe the victim of the anti-townies, then one of the attackers is randomly revealed to that person alone.

Those are interesting ideas Valhallan.

I took a look at that other game Manchu mentioned and it was a bit too complicated for me.

I like that idea Manchu, but it seems very hard to plan, good luck

Gornall wrote:I took a look at that other game Manchu mentioned and it was a bit too complicated for me.

Yeah, I'm finding that it's a bit too complicated for me as well. The design parameters for what I'm planning are

(1) complex enough to give players meaningful and truly diverse choices for character, actions, strategy

(2) simple enough that players will not have to constantly look back at the rules post at the beginning of the thread

@L-L: I'm gonna take my time so don't worry. Will also send these around to you guys for C&C, of course. Looks like a multi-week project.