Please do not post in this thread UNLESS you are playing in this game.

For those playing, please do not post until the game begins at 0:00 EST Friday 13 November.


Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa

This is a variant on the Mafia! party game.

BACKGROUND

It is a time of terrible carnage, even amid this endless age of war. The Thirteenth Black Crusade of the arch-traitor Ezekyle Abaddon hammers furiously against the Cadian Gate. To their utter astonishment, the Emperor’s armed forces throughout Segmentum Obscurus proved unable to stymie this monstrous threat alone. The Lord High Admiral has requested and received reinforcements from the High Lords of Terra even unto the illustrious Collegia Titanica of Mars itself. Several of the mighty God Machines, however, have recently fallen—ostensibly to the traitors’ seemingly inexhaustible predations. But it is almost as if there is some hidden force working against these majestic monsters of battle from within . . .

From battle to battle, surviving crews are cobbled together into Titans rebuilt hours before from the pieces of those who’s Machine Spirits have departed forever. You are one such crew, honored members of the much esteemed Legio Ignatum. Given no time to mourn for the God Machine you spent a lifetime serving aboard, you have been hurriedly gathered from across the front and assigned to the Warhound scout Honoris Causa. You have had some chance to familiarize yourself with this noble Titan and find her in peek operational condition. Unfortunately, you have had no time whatsoever to get to know your new comrades in arms.

Today is the eagerly awaited day of battle. Princeps Acuzio sits upon his imposing command throne completely at one with his Titan’s warlike Machine Spirit. Assembled around this redoubtable warrior, you can all feel the God Machine straining to join ferocious combat once again. Acuzio is about to give the command to move out when a slight screeching hisses from out of the background static of the internal vox channel. You see the princeps’s eyes role back into his head as he mouths a silent scream but before you can move to assist him the screeching mounts into the mind-numbing cackle of warp-corrupted code. As you begin to blackout, your mind fills with nightmarish visions.

When you awaken, the princeps is slumped in his command throne. Most of his forehead is missing, having apparently exploded, and his proud uniform is dripping with blood and brain matter. Suddenly, Honoris Causa powers down. Her cockpit lights dim to deep red and the thud of magnetic clamps indicate her doors have been sealed. All screens flash to the same message:

+++BY ORDER OF THE EMPEROR’S HOLY INQUISITION: HONORIS CAUSA TO STAND DOWN+++

You all immediately recognize this to be a reverently-crafted invocation against viral contamination, confirming that there are indeed traitors aboard the Honoris Causa. Eyeing each other, perhaps for the first time in some instances, you realize that it would surely take more than one heretic to cause such a vicious feedback contamination. There must be two traitors. And the Inquisition must be on the way.

Re-activating servo skulls float gently back into the air and turn a few loops in confusion before settling down. The princeps’s beautiful archeotech laspistol is securely holstered at his ornate belt. There are no other weapons within theHonoris Causa.

RULES

This is an extensively modified version of the party game Mafia! so please read these rules very carefully.

(1) You have all been assigned a role of one of two possible alignments. Some are pro-Imperium and others are anti-Imperium. It is the goal of the pro-Imperium characters to root out and execute the anti-Imperium characters. Similarly, the goal of the anti-Imperium characters is to kill all but one of the pro-Imperium ones. The anti-Imperium characters must achieve their goal within a certain time limit (see below) or they will lose.

(2) Every character has two wounds, i.e., must be hit by any weapon other than the laspistol twice in order to be killed.

(3) As in a normal game of Mafia!, there are two phases of each turn. The first phase is called day. During the day phase, every character may talk as much or as little as he/she desires and there is the possibility of killing one of the characters (see below). The day phase will last for three actual days (with weekends counting as one day) or until someone is shot with the laspistol.

The second phase is called night. During the night phase, no one may talk openly, i.e., post in the thread. Some roles are allowed to perform certain actions during the night phase. Once those actions are completed or the time limit for the night phase expires, the day phase of the next turn begins. The night phase will last as long as two actual days (with weekends counting as one day) or until all night actions have been PMed to me. Night actions that have not been PMed to me within the time limit for the night phase are forfeited.

*Please note that for the purposes of this particular game, the terms “day” and “night” are used only for convenience and do not signify that it is in fact either day or night.*

(4) Unlike a normal game of Mafia! there is no voting for a lynch per se. Instead there is one weapon, the late princeps’s laspistol. The first person to post the phrase “I take the princeps’s laspistol,” or words to that effect, will be the first to control it. The person who controls the laspistol may choose to shoot anyone including her/himself however the laspistol may not be fired in the same post in which it is either picked up or wrested away. The person shot is killed instantly and her/his alignment (not role) is revealed as the night phase begins.

If you are dead you may no longer post in the game thread. There is no “final gasp of agony/anger/condemnation/etc” post allowed.

Killing a character with the laspistol immediately ends the day phase and initiates the night phase.

The laspistol may be wrested away from whoever currently controls it with two votes. The person to cast the second vote to wrest away the laspistol away becomes its new controller. Another player may vote to defend the controller, thereby countering and cancelling out one of the wrest away votes. The laspistol may not be fired if there are any non-countered wrest away votes standing. See more on this below in Rule 7.

The laspistol remains controlled by the last character to use it unless that character is killed during the following night phase. If that character is killed during the night then the first character to type words to the effect of “I take the laspistol” during the following day phase becomes the new controller.

*Please be advised, this means that anti-Imperium characters have a possible advantage regarding picking up the laspistol during the day. How they employ this advantage is up to them.*

A character may also drop the laspistol.

Not being able to fire the laspistol on the same turn as taking it/wresting it away is a RAI situation. The idea is to give other player's a chance to interact with the weapon before it is shot. Double posting will not get you around this rule. But there is flexibility: if no one has posted for a long while (like an IRL day) since you picked up the laspistol, you're more than welcome to shoot someone. Please PM me if you have questions about this but just try to be reasonable.

(5) Servo skulls can be deployed during the day phase to investigate any character’s role (not merely alignment). Deploying a servo skull in this manner requires a majority vote (half rounded down plus one). The results will be reported via PM to the last character to vote for deployment during the following night phase unless that person is shot during that day phase or killed during that night phase. More than one Servo Skull may be deployed per day but there are only four Servo Skulls and they can only be used once each.

(6) Also unlike a standard game of Mafia!, the anti-Imperium characters are working against a time limit. If they do not succeed in killing all but one of the pro-Imperium characters by the end of the day phase on the eighth turn, the Inquisition arrives and orders an immediate purge of the entire crew. Given that any faithful member of the Mechanicum would rather perish than see heretics abscond with a Titan, this counts as a pro-Imperium tactical victory. If the anti-Imperium characters are able to kill the pro-Imperium ones within the time frame, they are able to join Abaddon’s ranks with the Honoris Causa and may rename it something appropriately blasphemous. (This is a sort of trophy and the renamed Honoris Causa will figure into the next game of Heretic! if this one is successful.)

(7) The only action that counts is the one written in bold. The following list represents the most basic form of all possible actions:

- take the laspistol
- drop the laspistol
- shoot (insert character’s name)
- wrest away
- defend controller
- deploy servo skull against (insert character’s name)

These exact words do not have to be used but it must be clear to me what you are trying to do (so I would recommend sticking closely to these examples) and it must be written in bold so that myself and others will be able to easily spot it.

Here is an example of play:

Player A: Before any traitors can act, I quickly pick up the laspistol.
Player A may not shoot in this post because he picked up the laspistol in this post.

Player B: You’re clearly a Heretic! Someone help me wrest the laspistol away from him!
Player A still controls the weapon but can no longer shoot it because there is one uncountered vote to wrest it away from him.

Player C: I will help you. ::he helps wrest it away from Player A::
Player C is the second vote to wrest the laspistol away and so becomes it’s new controller. Even so, he cannot shoot this post because he wrested away the laspistol this post.

Player B: But I think you’re a traitor, too. ::begins to wrest away the gun from Player C.:: Help me, Player D!
Player C can no longer shoot because there is an uncountered wrest away vote against him.

Player D: You are the real traitor, Player B, and I will not let you get that gun! ::I move to defend the controller::
Player C may now shoot the laspistol because he did not pick up or wrest away the laspistol this post AND Player D has countered Player B’s vote to wrest away the weapon.

Player C: Nice try, Player D, but you're obviously the real heretic. ::shoots Player D::

(8) I highly encourage roleplay elements because I think it makes the game more fun for everyone. But please realize that it has no effect on your role or any other rule in the game. You are all servants of Adeptus Mechanicus, roughly equal in rank at the moment, and have been augmented to a greater or lesser extent. You also all wear some sort of red. There is therefore no outward dissimilarity in appearance that could give away who the traitors are. Arguments based on purported physical appearance or any similar qualities (such as specific background details) have only as much weight as their proponents manage to lend them and no official authority. (See below for your generalized backgrounds.)

*Please try to speak “in character” as much as possible. If you must do otherwise, please indicate so by putting the text in parantheses and prefacing it with OOC: so that it is clear to everyone that you are not currently “in character.”*

ROLES

Titan Crewman: pro-Imperium, may not exchange PMs
You were raised on sacred Mars, the glorious capitol world of the Mechanicum Empire, and indoctrinated into the Machine Cult. Your faith in the Ominissiah is absolute. Your hate for heretics, especially from Mechanicum ranks, is without limit.

Tech-Priest: pro-Imperium, may not exchange PMs, are aware of each other’s identies
You are the initiated guardian of the Omnissiah’s mysteries and have memorized the thousands of litanies to placate and spur on the Machine Spirit. You consider Imperial technology direct, tangible evidence of divinity and can accurately recognize such depth of faith in another.

Secutor: pro-Imperium, may not exchange PMs, automatically wounds any anti-Imperium character that targets him during the night phase but still takes the wound
You have dedicated your existence to defending and furthering the Machine Cult and its sacred mission through force of arms. Woe to the heretic, mutant, or alien that opposes the Omnissiah in your grim presence.

Heretic Tech-Priest: anti-Imperium, may exchange PMs with one another at night only, may inflict one wound to any target each night (different Heretics can target the same character)
You grew up on Mars like the others and accepted their foolish teachings for a time. But whispers from the Warp have shown you that there is so much more that they are hiding . . . You will make them pay at the corrupted hands of their own precious techno-sorcery!

Possessed Heretic: anti-Imperium, may exchange PMs with other Heretics at night only, may inflict one wound to any target each night (may target the same character as another Heretic) OR may inflict two wounds on the same target by sacrificing the ability to inflict a wound during the following night.
You have indulged the warp-whispers and given in to your deepest depravity. A daemon haunts what is left of your flesh lending you its fiendish strength to strike out at the so-called faithful—now from the dark but soon with their own weapons.

There will be only two Tech-Priests. There may or may not be a Secutor. There will be at least two anti-Imperium characters one of which could be a Possessed Heretic. Everyone else will be a Titan Crewman.

MISCELLANEOUS

Any player may request a status update at any time during the day phase of a turn. I will post the status update as soon as I see the request. For convenience, please be sure that your request is spoken “out of character” and written in bold. For example, “(OOC: I wish Manchu would give us a goddamned status update sometime soon!)” The status update will include the following information: number of votes required for majority, number of remaining servo skulls, number of turns until Inquisitorial purge, who currently controls the laspistol, any wrest-away votes and who is casting them, any defend-the-controller votes and who is casting them, any deploy-servo-skull votes and who is casting them at which target, and who is wounded.

You are the playtesters of this rules set. I have shown all of you drafts at various points. Many thanks to everyone (basically all of you) who gave me feedback. Your criticisms, comments, and suggestions have allowed me to refine these rules as much as possible before their baptism by fire. I hope you will all have fun! And remember: it’s okay for the “in character” discussion to be harsh, accusatory, and bigoted—this is 40k, after all—but we’re all friends “out of character.” At least on the internet, right?

If this goes well, I would like to extend the storyline into a loose campaign. There will be victory points racking up over the course of individual games to decide whether the faithful armies of the Imperium or the traitorous forces of Chaos carry the day. Each game will have several possible outcomes already alluded to in the rules. The point values are listed below:

Tactical Victory: 1 point
Standard Victory: 2 points
Trophy Victory: 3 points

In Game One: Honoris Causa, the pro-Imperium characters may win either a Standard Victory by killing both Heretics or a Tactical Victory if the Heretics are not able to kill all but one of them by the time limit. The anti-Imperium characters may only achieve a Trophy Victory. The “trophy” in this case is the Honoris Causa herself and the anti-Imperium characters will have the privilege of renaming her as she will certainly show up again . . .

Good luck and May the Emperor watch over you . . . or the Chaos Gods smile upon you.

Current Player Status:

Thor665 (alive)
Orkeosaurus (alive)
Gornall (alive, wounded)
BrotherStynier (alive, wounded)
Valhallan42nd (alive, wounded)
Demogerg (alive)
Mekboy (alive)
Lord-Loss (alive)
Arctik-Firangi (alive)

I'm looking forward to this. Though I don't know how long I'll survive given my performance in Thor's game.

Let's rock!

For the Omnimessiah!

Mekboy wrote:For the Omnimessiah!

Indeed.

Valhallan42nd wrote:I'm looking forward to this. Though I don't know how long I'll survive given my performance in Thor's game.

I had you figured out last game too *shakes fist*

Hopefully I won't be wrong on my conclusions so many times this game...

Edit: Crap... we all fail at directions.

Demogerg wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:I'm looking forward to this. Though I don't know how long I'll survive given my performance in Thor's game.

I had you figured out last game too *shakes fist*

We would have gotten to Terra, if it wasnt for you damn Genestealers!

please do not post until the game begins at 0:00 EST Friday 13 November.

I just saw this.

Lets all shut up now.

Takes the laspistol

For the All-father we must protect this Holy Vessel from the hands of the traitors.

How do we know who the traitors amongst us are?

But who among us can be trusted, when the outlook of things is so dire?

Or, what Gornall said.

I don't know that I trust Adept Demogerg's itchy trigger finger. I vote we send a servo skull to investigate him (demogerg).

EDIT: put demo-gerg's name in for clarity.

As a precautionarly measure to prevent someone being shot, I'd like to wrest away the lasgun from Demogerg.

Please, by all means, send the Servo skull after me, but do not take away the laspistol.

Vote: deploy servo skull to prove Demogerg's loyalty

just in case people dont catch on to this, once the servo skull reveals to a player that I am in fact a Loyalist, that player should tell everyone that I am indeed an Imperial. If that player claims otherwise, by all means, kill me, then when you find out I am an Imperial, you will know who at least one of the traitors are.

Deploy Servo-skull to investigate Demogerg


Just to make sure.

No-one should wreck the laspistol away. Keep it how it is, so no-one gets shot but no-one is in full power of the gun.

Vis a vie the servo-skull:

It only reveals the traitor during the night cycle of our Glorious Titan. (OOC: 5) Servo skulls can be deployed during the day phase to investigate any character’s role (not merely alignment). Deploying a servo skull in this manner requires a majority vote (half rounded down plus one). The results will be reported via PM to the last character to vote for deployment during the following night phase unless that person is shot during that day phase or killed during that night phase. More than one Servo Skull may be deployed per day but there are only four Servo Skulls and they can only be used once each. )

Lord-Loss, that is exactly my plan. If demogerg and I remain locked in this standoff no-one can be shot. And luckily, my mechandrites are not weak flesh, and will never cramp up. So I can hold the laspistol as long as we need. If someone else attempts to wrest the gun away, I would suggest that someone else of clear mind attempt to defend demogerg's possession of the pistol.

I think we all have an interest in keeping the laspistol neutral until we decide on who might be a traitor.

EDIT: added Italics and underlines to OOC rules.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Vis a vie the servo-skull:

It only reveals the traitor during the night cycle of our Glorious Titan. (OOC: 5) Servo skulls can be deployed during the day phase to investigate any character’s role (not merely alignment). Deploying a servo skull in this manner requires a majority vote (half rounded down plus one). The results will be reported via PM to the last character to vote for deployment during the following night phase unless that person is shot during that day phase or killed during that night phase. More than one Servo Skull may be deployed per day but there are only four Servo Skulls and they can only be used once each. )

Lord-Loss, that is exactly my plan. If demogerg and I remain locked in this standoff no-one can be shot. And luckily, my mechandrites are not weak flesh, and will never cramp up. So I can hold the laspistol as long as we need. If someone else attempts to wrest the gun away, I would suggest that someone else of clear mind attempt to defend demogerg's possession of the pistol.

I think we all have an interest in keeping the laspistol neutral until we decide on who might be a traitor.

EDIT: added Italics and underlines to OOC rules.

the only wildcard is if the person who votes to deploy the skull last is killed during the night phase by the heretics. so whomever chooses to deploy the skull last is putting themselves in a very dangerous place. I will pray to the All-Father, Russ, and the Omnimessiah to protect them.

For all of you who dont know, I was a simple Fenrisian, born on the Isle of Iron, selected by the Sons of Russ to join the ranks of the glorius Space Wolves. It was decided that I should join the ranks of the Iron Priests, and my time spent on the Vengence of Mars was supposed to be part of my training. When that magnificent Titan was felled by the Heretics in this war I was transferred to this Honoris Causa much to my dismay, the knowledge of my placement on the Vengence of Mars being just a temporary training was lost, and at this time I cannot appeal to return to Mars untill this crisis is averted.

Why my Fernrisian friend did you feel the need to take the pistol straight away? The primitive nature of your world rekindling in you?

BrotherStynier wrote:Why my Fernrisian friend did you feel the need to take the pistol straight away? The primitive nature of your world rekindling in you?

Although my world may be primitive, the Isle of Iron is most definately not.

I felt the need to take the gun right away to prevent misuse.

I think this reasoning is actually very sound. As long as they are in a standoff, we can have a chance to look for traitors. If someone was to wrest it away and shoot someone, they would most certainally be the traitor.

Deploying Skulls will be helpful, but we have to remember they have two fatal flaws... both the target and the deployer must survive through the night... and the deployer must be a trustworthy source. I think we should discuss the best way to deploy them to mitigate that.

I suggest we send out two, as there is no way the traitors can kill two people per night cycle.

Or, we might wish to hold off on sending them out. I hate to say this, but not all of us will be surviving this event. Some of us will be joining the princeps.

Would we want to hold off on sending out the skulls until the field is a bit more... narrow, shall we say?

It might be cold to say so, but it is a logical proposal.

Maybe holding off on them would be a good idea.

If we shoot a loyalist, and a loyalist dies tonight we'll have 7 suspects. That'll make things easier.

Hopefully, we'll shoot a traitor, though odds are against us.

In our situation, it is understandable that any one of us may have picked up the weapon first, given the chance. This is not sufficient grounds to indicate suspect behaviour... I do concur that the pistol should be held neutral for the time being. The use of our investigative probes is a subject that we should carry out extensive calculation upon.

One possible way to proceed would be to conserve all of them until much later, and presuming we can keep the pistol neutral, we should be able to rule out at least 20% of the last five alive.

Failed probes due to death of the data recipient are also strong indicators of treachery, depending upon whom the probe was deployed against, but even this can be used against us.

I believe that Demogerg should drop the laspistol. Then it will be truly neutral.

The pistol is currently in stasis with it in the situation that it is currently in. It is both in and out of Demogerg's possession in a strange way. It's Schrödinger's Pistol, if you will.

If it is dropped, that it is a free for all. And then we'll be back in the same position that we're in now.

As to the servo skulls, I do beleive that we should hold off for at least one more day, and then deploy them en masse, so as to confound the traitor's ability to kill off those that receive the information.

We need to get discussions going if were going to root out the traitors among us.

So everyone tell there story, how, why and when they got here. What previous God Machines they have, seen and worked on.


(OOC: I'l post my story tomorow)

Well, my name Orkeosaurus, or at least that's what everybody calls me. I used to be a reserve driver for a Knight Class Titan. (I only used it twice, and didn't engage any serious opposition with it.)

I was selected to come aboard this titan due to my prior experience in handling onboard emergencies. Unfortunately, this is not the kind of thing I really know how to deal with.

::Turns to Lord-Loss::

Moderati Thor, reporting here. ::salutes:: Native of Mars. I studied in the schola in order to earn the right to serve the great holy machines in order that I might serve as the Emperor's Fist by smiting the heretic. I graduated 47th in my class with special honors in operation of the adjunct drive processor and secondary training in reprocessing of drill bore bits compatible in Imperator Class sections 1-12, 47, and the third subsector of section 128 though we are not meant to wonder about the seeming irregularity of the part in that area. So it is written ::rubs aquila symbol on chain around neck.:: I served with honors as 1st Adjutant of the second knee joint of the Ignum Corvus for the first eight cycles of my tour. I received letters of commendation both for my efficiency in organizing the servitors in the sub-sector and for overall optimal knee efficiency no less then seven times. With those commendations I was allowed a cross promotion trade into the tertiary spine chute where I served liaison duties with the master of the aft Void array and the coordinator station at the helm. I was awarded the Decius Cross for actions above and beyond the call of duty when we walked upon Terron Secundus. During that action there were heavy casualties and unfortunately the God Machine was sorely wounded. Thus, like many of you I imagine, I was reassigned to this vessel as a last minute attempt to Walk against Abbadon's newest abomination of a crusade ::rubs aquila nnecklace.:: With the mark of dignity my newly awarded medal gave me along with familiarity with the crew duties of Moderati I was given a battlefield promotion in order that we could walk against the traitor legions of the 13th Crusade without delay. I would very much like to serve with enough distinction to maintain the battlefield promotion, since otherwise I believe my career path shall be truncated into Captain of the Right Knee - which though a glorious and noble position, does not serve as an optimal usage of my training to this point.

As to what has been said so far;

I do concur that for the moment it seems wise to keep the laspistol out of anyone in specific's grip until we can come to some sort of agreement about whom should be shot. It is only when agreement has been made that we should allow the pistol to be controlled by someone, and they should only shoot whom the group has chosen.

I also believe I endorse not sending out servo-skulls too rashly. It is grim, but I agree that our odds of finding the evil amongst us would be increased by winnowing out some of the options before we use up our limited number of skulls. With only four skulls it seems our optimum play would be to wait until later and then try to deploy them all at once, that way at least some results would get back to us. Does anyone have any further thoughts or disagreements on that score? The only advantage to sending them out early might be to find someone worthy of holding the laspistol - since if we can confirm loyalty I'm sure we'd all feel safer with a loyalist holding the gun, right?

Please, by all means, send the Servo skull after me, but do not take away the laspistol.

That seems a little odd. Why would you invite him to investigate you, but beg that he doesn't take the laspistol away? Is it really so important you control it?

((Edit: Realized my back story was incompatible with Manchu's backstory discussion and cleaned it up least I be called traitor for not reading the backstory clearly enough when making up my own.))

I'm Mekboy, and I'm just a mere Titan Crewman. I came from the planet Medusa Prime. I doubt any of you will have heard of it, it's somewhat small and insignificant. Anyway, I joined the Holy Adeptus Mechanicus, and that lead to me being aboard this holy ship.

Im from the planet of Plantenus Rofus, a very small world.

I was picked up by Adept Ignor while he was with a Imperial Guard expedition force. I studied under him for thirty years.

Lord-Loss wrote:What previous God Machines they have, seen and worked on.

How come you didn't answer your own question?

The Vengence of Mars a Reaver class titan given to Leman Russ by the Adeptus Mechanicus after his liberation of Mars during the Horus Heresy, a Glorious Machine with countless felled heretic titans under its banner of records. I was responsible for maintaining the weapon systems of the great machine, but during a particularly violent volley of attacks from chaos forces the stabilizers in the waist failed and the titan toppled over, while in the prone position chaos forces crawled over the backside, tearing into plasteel and ceremite, ripping apart critical components. A large group of Blood Claws cleared the chaos forces nearby and an Iron Priest by the name of Kaelyn saved nearly all of the crew, myself included, by ripping open an escape hatch with his servo-arm.

I was then sent back to Mars and given this position here aboard this titan, which although it has no ties to Russ, it is still bearing the word of the All-Father, so I will submit to my duty untill a time presents itself for me to return to my proper training.

I have seen many God-machines, as Ingor was very respected adept. But I have only worked on one, which is the Reaver Titan Emperor's Pride.

Demogerg wrote:I was responsible for maintaining the weapon systems of the great machine,

A weapons system master? If only we were all so gifted, but ours is not to question, so it is written. ::rubs at aquila symbol::

I do note that you chose not to respond to my question to you. Is it your training on weapons systems that made you so eager to hold the laspistol? Also, again, why was it you wished us to investigate you but not to take away the laspistol?

Thor665 wrote:
I do note that you chose not to respond to my question to you. Is it your training on weapons systems that made you so eager to hold the laspistol? Also, again, why was it you wished us to investigate you but not to take away the laspistol?

My eagerness to hold the laspistol comes from various sources. I desire to save this Great Machine from destruction, and thus serve the Omnimessiah, I desire to destroy the heretics abound, and thus serve the Emperor, and I desire to survive this encounter, to fpllow through and maintain the Great Machines of the Space Wolves, and thus serve Leman Russ.

I wish for you to investigate me to prove my innocence. Even if I am killed as a result of treachery, I will have served the Emperor to help the rest of you root out the heretics, just do not let my death go to waste if it comes to that.

(OOC: Better a cool-headed loyalist have the Laspistol than a heretic who we cannot trust, I suspect that the first person to actually FIRE the laspistol at someone would be the heretic, and using the Servo-Skulls early would be a better use of our resources)

EDITED FOR SPELLING.

(OOC: I like this thread, I am able to copy/paste the backstory I have for my heavily converted Iron Priest model for myself, and the Backstory for my scratchbuilt titan as part of his backstory. WIN!)

I think we all (well, aside from the heretics) want to save the God Machine and hunt the heretics amongst us. But your logic of 'investigate me, but don't take the laspistol because I'm a loyalist' isn't any good. If you had suggested we investigate you and, upon the clearing of your name we should let you have the laspistol I couldn't disagree. However you think we should leave you in control of the laspistol right now simply because you say you're loyal? I still don't understand why it's so vital the laspistol is left in your hands instead of on the ground or in Schrodinger's box.

Demogerg wrote:(OOC: using the Servo-Skulls early would be a better use of our resources)

((OOC - responding OOC since you didn't say this in character - both myself and Valhallan42nd posited that it would serve us better to use the servo skulls later rather then earlier. If you're offering up the opposite viewpoint then please at least explain the logic of why using them now instead of later is a better idea.))

Thor665 wrote:I think we all (well, aside from the heretics) want to save the God Machine and hunt the heretics amongst us. But your logic of 'investigate me, but don't take the laspistol because I'm a loyalist' isn't any good. If you had suggested we investigate you and, upon the clearing of your name we should let you have the laspistol I couldn't disagree. However you think we should leave you in control of the laspistol right now simply because you say you're loyal? I still don't understand why it's so vital the laspistol is left in your hands instead of on the ground or in Schrodinger's box.

Demogerg wrote:(OOC: using the Servo-Skulls early would be a better use of our resources)

((OOC - responding OOC since you didn't say this in character - both myself and Valhallan42nd posited that it would serve us better to use the servo skulls later rather then earlier. If you're offering up the opposite viewpoint then please at least explain the logic of why using them now instead of later is a better idea.))

Let it be clear I am 100% ok with the laspistol being unavailable to be fired by anyone at the moment. The position we are in at the moment is stable, as long as no one else fights to gain control of the pistol. I found myself in an opprotune moment (OOC: near midnight on friday) and i took the initiative to prevent immediate bloodshed.

(OOC: we have 4 Servo Skulls to use, we have 5 lives to go through, assuming that the first person dead will be innocent of heresy that leaves us at an 4-4 split of skulls to lives. If we wait untill that point then it would be easier for the heretics to lie, cooperate, and collaborate their story against us loyalists. I say we use the skulls now, get the information out there, then use the dead to track down the heretics. as opposed to letting the heretics run wild untill we have to rely on each others word to bring them to justice.)

In our situation we want as much information out in the open as possible, the earlier we get this information the better. Those who would see us burn will want to hide the information untill they can spin it into their use.

Also, it is in the heretics best interest to prevent the knowledge of their heresy from escaping, with less innocents to vote it would be easier for them to stay the skulls from use entirely.

Demogerg wrote:Let it be clear I am 100% ok with the laspistol being unavailable to be fired by anyone at the moment. The position we are in at the moment is stable, as long as no one else fights to gain control of the pistol. I found myself in an opprotune moment (OOC: near midnight on friday) and i took the initiative to prevent immediate bloodshed.

So you grabbed the laspistol first to prevent bloodshed. Okay. And when you cried out that you should be left in control of the laspistol it was simply because you knew you were loyal and thought Valhallan might be a heretic? I guess that makes some sense, though i will note it doesn't seem to prove any truth to you not being a Heretic either. After all, a heretic would know if they just grabbed the gun and fired they'd look mighty suspicious. In any case I wish you'd clarified yourself sooner on that score as it did look odd with your insistence on being in control of the laspisto (and still does)l. If I'm misstating your thoughts/goals in any of the above please correct me.

I say we use the skulls now, get the information out there, then use the dead to track down the heretics. as opposed to letting the heretics run wild untill we have to rely on each others word to bring them to justice.)

((OOC - So, as I understand it - your belief is that we should release all the servo skulls *now* We should investigate four people with them. Then, depending on who does or does not die we'll know who the heretics are, or at least be closer to that goal? Does this or does this not include the strategy of shooting someone with the laspistol this turn? Also, it seems we'd have to do a lot of work to figure out who should or should not be scanned by servo skulls and be the person receiving the information from servo skulls. The problem I see, to a certain extent, is we're obligated to have two servo skulls investigate the same person to ensure accurate results since otherwise we might have a Heretic at the other end of the servo skull giving false results of some kind to the rest of us. Your thoughts?))

In our situation we want as much information out in the open as possible, the earlier we get this information the better.

((OOC - I cannot fault this logic and agree fully. I just think we're more likely to have accurate information via a later servo skull deployment then an earlier one. Though I'll admit I don't feel as strong on that as I did earlier.

Also, just to get this out in the open...))

::rubs aquila symbol::

Clearly our use of the servo skulls is important in finding the heretics amongst us - would you all please weigh in on what you think the best options are? Is it early deployment, or saving them for later that will aid us best?

Thor665 wrote:
So you grabbed the laspistol first to prevent bloodshed. Okay. And when you cried out that you should be left in control of the laspistol it was simply because you knew you were loyal and thought Valhallan might be a heretic? I guess that makes some sense, though i will note it doesn't seem to prove any truth to you not being a Heretic either. After all, a heretic would know if they just grabbed the gun and fired they'd look mighty suspicious. In any case I wish you'd clarified yourself sooner on that score as it did look odd with your insistence on being in control of the laspisto (and still does)l. If I'm misstating your thoughts/goals in any of the above please correct me.

I dont think I ever actually cried out to be left in control of the laspistol, I just simply dont trust any of you, the only person I CAN trust is myself, and I would rather be here locked in control for a laspistol with no chance of firing it, than over there, where a stray pistol shot could easily kill me. (OOC: fluff wise, I am safer fighting for the pistol than standing around doing nothing)

and again, I dont want to have full control over the laspistol because I understand that none of you trust me, rather being in the situation we are in right now is more ideal. If it would quell fears as to my loyalty I will drop the pistol, but at the same time, I do not trust that YOU are not a heretic, who is simply grasping for straws at one who would rather be in control of his own destiny.

Thor665 wrote:
((OOC - So, as I understand it - your belief is that we should release all the servo skulls *now* We should investigate four people with them. Then, depending on who does or does not die we'll know who the heretics are, or at least be closer to that goal? Does this or does this not include the strategy of shooting someone with the laspistol this turn? Also, it seems we'd have to do a lot of work to figure out who should or should not be scanned by servo skulls and be the person receiving the information from servo skulls. The problem I see, to a certain extent, is we're obligated to have two servo skulls investigate the same person to ensure accurate results since otherwise we might have a Heretic at the other end of the servo skull giving false results of some kind to the rest of us. Your thoughts?))

simple logic really, we do NOT double up on skulls on a single target, we spread them out, with 9 players and 4 servo skulls we can get results directly involving 8 out of the 9 players. 4 of these will be directly related to each player being a heretic or not, and the other 4 will be reflex based on what any future murder results reveal. Also, if we use all 4 now, and get supremely lucky and 2 innocents find out the status of 2 heretics, then the heretics would have no choice but to murder one of the innocents, else be found and lose, at which point we will know who to kill. If the heretics are the ones who get the information for the innocents then they can either vote to reveal that they are indeed innocent (which gives neither positive nor negative reflection on them) or try to suede us to thinking that they are heretics, and upon their death and reveal of being innocent we will know who the heretic is, as an innocent has no reason to lie.
We do not use the pistol untill we get to a critical point where 2 people have evidence stacked against them, but we only have 1 night left to win. The pistol is a last resort, our own lives are key to winning, and throwing them away is not in my opinion the correct way to survive.

Thor665 wrote:
((OOC - I cannot fault this logic and agree fully. I just think we're more likely to have accurate information via a later servo skull deployment then an earlier one. Though I'll admit I don't feel as strong on that as I did earlier.

Also, just to get this out in the open...))

::rubs aquila symbol::

Clearly our use of the servo skulls is important in finding the heretics amongst us - would you all please weigh in on what you think the best options are? Is it early deployment, or saving them for later that will aid us best?

I vote we spread the servo skulls around now, and either get lucky and win, or have lots more information to sort through and deduce who the heretics are.

Demogerg wrote:I dont think I ever actually cried out to be left in control of the laspistol,

Demogerg wrote:Please, by all means, send the Servo skull after me, but do not take away the laspistol.

((OOC - Emphasis mine))

Demogerg wrote:(OOC: fluff wise, I am safer fighting for the pistol than standing around doing nothing)

((OOC - I disagree with that assessment (Valhallan is the 'least safe' and everyone else is roughly equal), but it's inconsequential at the moment.))

::rubs aquila symbol:: His otherwise suspicious actions aside, I am coming around to agreeing with Demogerg as far as the disposition of the servo skulls go.

Thor665 wrote:

Demogerg wrote:I dont think I ever actually cried out to be left in control of the laspistol,

Demogerg wrote:Please, by all means, send the Servo skull after me, but do not take away the laspistol.

((OOC - Emphasis mine))

Demogerg wrote:(OOC: fluff wise, I am safer fighting for the pistol than standing around doing nothing)

((OOC - I disagree with that assessment (Valhallan is the 'least safe' and everyone else is roughly equal), but it's inconsequential at the moment.))

::rubs aquila symbol:: His otherwise suspicious actions aside, I am coming around to agreeing with Demogerg as far as the disposition of the servo skulls go.

To help alive suspicions against myself, and in recognition of my own error, Demogerg releases his grasp on the Laspistol

but I suggest you find someone else to hold it still against Valhallan, and I plea that no one fire the Pistol unless the game comes down to a last-night circumstance, time works in Favor of the Loyalists in this game, and firing the pistol only helps them

Um, I'd prefer if the pistol had stayed in the box. That said I think I will now suggest that nobody pick up the pistol and we leave it laying on the ground until we come to some conclusion about who we can or cannot trust.

((OOC - If somebody picks it up then whoever posts next make sure you post to wrest it away from them.))

Is there any particular reason you see Valhallan as less trustworthy then anyone else?

Wrests pistol from Valhallan42nd

((OOC - it just occured to me a release isn't a drop, so I wasn't sure if maybe Valhallan now had the pistol, this is just in case he does.))

((Very good point and, moreover, one that I did not cover. A drop when there is a wrest results in the wresting party controlling the laspistol AND ABLE TO USE IT IMMEDIATELY. A drop when there are two wresters away results in the two wresters struggling with one another EVEN IF THERE IS A DEFENDER. The defender role immediately ceases, i.e., the defender never has a hand on the laspistol. In this case, Val still has the pistol and you are grappling with him.))

((OOC - So to clarify - currently Valhallan "holds" the laspistol and I am attempting to wrest it away. (putting me in the risky spot, ::mutter, mutter::') But in any case, for the nonce the laspistol is in the box, and I accept that as a good thing.))

I think Demogerg's thoughts about the skulls definately bears some consideration. We just need to make sure we spread the skulls out as much as possible. In any case, I do think they should be used all at once or the targets/receivers will simply be killed that night. In addition, their usage will give us patterns of behavior to observe to determine who the heretics are, something we are currently lacking.

OOC: Things are pretty crazy in RL atm, so I won't be commenting too much.

((OOC - just so long as we get some of your insight later I suppose we'll allow this "real life" thing to distract you from what's important - y'know, online forum games.))

I don't think anyone disagrees with you Gornall, we all realize our best option is to release all the servo skulls at one point. The real question is simply when that point is. At the moment I believe I agree with Demogerg that the time should probably be sooner rather then later as that will give us information we do not otherwise have. Valhallan may still be standing by his plot of waiting to later, which doesn't seem a bad one either. We're still working at trying to get some consensus on if we should send skulls now or later, and we should probably also be discussing who should be scanned and who should perform the scanning - there's undoubtedly a manner that will be more beneficial to us and hurtful to the heretics - it's just a matter of figuring out what it is.

So I have the pistol now?

This is not what I wanted.

Still, we do have time to figure this out.

As for me, I recently been promoted from the forges of Gryphone IV, where I was blessed with the task of Fabrication of the Holy Machines of the Blessed Omnissiah. I was very excited to be assigned to the maintainence of the Blessed Titan. Up until the Princeps was assassinated, of course.

Keeping the laspistol neutral is in the loyalist's best interests. And as horrible as it sounds, I think that holding off on deploying the skulls until the second day cycle makes more sense.

Let's make a ground rule here; anyone who shoots someone without there being a majority vote for it, or without it coming dangerously close to nightfall, gets shot next day.

For the skulls, we should definitely send them out this turn or the next. Any later will make them less useful to us, we won't have enough room for error.

Valhallan42nd wrote:So I have the pistol now?

No, you do not, I am currently trying to wrest it away from you. I understand I do not work out very often but I would have thought you would have noticed my violent struggles to claim it from your grasp even as we have this conversation.

Your desire to keep it neutral and not trying to shoot anyone is noted happily. The fact you thought you controlled it and didn't drop it or request wresting is also noted.

So you concur that we should send out the servo skulls soon but not just now ((Game Day 2)) and Orkeo more or less agrees with both groups ((either Game Day 1 or Game Day 2 but no later)). I'm not sure how big of a change it will make waiting only that little bit ((till Game Day 2)) so I think I'll keep my vote for deployment as soon as possible. If soon is good, soonest is best. ((I'm voting for Game Day 1 deployment))


((OOC - Skull release day suggestions

2.5 - Deploy skulls Day 1 - Thor665, Demogerg (half vote Orkeo)
1.5 - Deploy skulls Day 2 - Valhallan (half vote Orkeo)

Hopefully everyone else can weigh in once the week starts and we'll be able to get some skulls in the air.))

Thor665,

Despite your assertions, I do have primary possession of the pistol, since Demogerg relenquished control of the pistol. Will I use it? No, not without a group consensous. Quite frankly, it's better to have it in the possession of someone trustworthy, like myself.

If it is a figurative "loose cannon", then the traitors could gain it and thus attempt to kill one of us, before anyone could stop us.

The combination of your attempt to release the skulls when they have greater odds of failing is telling, and your devisive suggestions are putting you on my short list of suspects.

There would be a hell of a lot of backlash against someone using the pistol now. I wouldn't worry too much at this point in time.

Valhallan42nd wrote:Thor665,

Despite your assertions, I do have primary possession of the pistol, since Demogerg relenquished control of the pistol.

Well...primary possession with me currently wresting it so that you cannot use it - yes.

If it is a figurative "loose cannon", then the traitors could gain it and thus attempt to kill one of us, before anyone could stop us.

I agree with Orkeo's thought, that it would raise instant and total suspicion if someone simply fired the gun. That said, I have fully supported the gun being in the box from the beginning.

your attempt to release the skulls when they have greater odds of failing is telling,

My attempt? Interesting re-write of history. Initially I supported your plan (which wasn't suspicious at all as long as I agreed with you) but then Demogerg came up with his idea and explained it well. I came around to agreeing with him as did roughly 50% of Orkeo. So, if I'm evil for having this plan I must be a true mastermind by getting Demogerg to suggest it for me, and Orkeo to buy into it as at least as good as your plan. Also - your plan now includes fairly early release ((Game Day 2)) and I do not see how that will be any huge difference in effectiveness from a release now ((Game Day 1))

((OOC- I also note it's not till Game Night 1 that the Heretics can start talking to each other - doesn't it behoove us to release before they can get together and plan something? I think so.))

and your devisive suggestions are putting you on my short list of suspects.

What divisive suggestions?

Thor665 wrote:

and your divisive suggestions are putting you on my short list of suspects.

What divisive suggestions?

thor665 wrote:The fact you thought you controlled it and didn't drop it or request wresting is also noted.

Indeed, I did begin the process to release a skull as soon as demogerg picked the pistol up. It was a moment of panic, to be honest. As for the skulls, if we deploy them now, then we have an approx. 44% chance of finding at least one traitor amongst us. If we take two casualties, then it goes up to 57.142% chance, a significant increase. Assuming two casualties per cycle, day 3 would be 80%, but at that point, I would posit that the risk of the traitors being able to manipulate the results would dilute the process.

I would also like to delcare that if anyone wants to use a skull on me, please do so. I have nothing to hide.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize when I pointed out things I thought you had done that were suspicious I was being divisive. I guess the lesson is I shouldn't point out anything suspicious you've done? Don't count on that lesson being learned.

I note you are including in your servo skull numbers the plan to shoot someone semi regularly ((every Game Day)) - why should we do this?

((OOC with the time limit in effect for the Heretics, shooting players seems to help them more then it helps us. Why do you think we should shoot anybody at this juncture?))

Thor665 wrote:I note you are including in your servo skull numbers the plan to shoot someone semi regularly ((every Game Day)) - why should we do this?

((OOC with the time limit in effect for the Heretics, shooting players seems to help them more then it helps us. Why do you think we should shoot anybody at this juncture?))

OOC:: Because it's more fun that way!

With the skulls, do you think it is worth it to simply target 4 seperate people with 4 different people getting reports back, or is it better to do a 4 person round-robin where each person getting a report back is also getting investigated? The first option provides more overall data to analyze, but the second would provide confirmation, and if we're lucky could force the heretics hands if we happen to target one of them.

I think the first option would probably be best, simply because we would have to believe anyone claiming their target is guilty. Anyone lying about that would be easily found out. The only way a lie would work is if a heretic was investigating another heretic. By making the deployment of skulls more random (rather than a fixed round-robin), I think it would be harder for them to coordinate/manipulate the votes needed to achieve that situation.

OOC:: Is there a way for us to vote to move to the next night phase rather?

Gornall wrote:OOC:: Because it's more fun that way!

((OOC - I cannot find a fault in your logic sir, and would like to subscribe to your periodical.))

My suggestion is to set each skull on a different person, with a different person getting each result, only 1 person will be left without either a result or an inquiry, and simple deduction can then be used to locate the traitors in an efficient manner, using logic and reason as opposed to relying on stories and charisma.

just to throw some names out there (I am merely going down the list, if you want to change who investigates who, thats fine with me, albeit its Very suspicious)


Thor665 Investigated by Orkeosaurus

Gornall Investigate by BrotherStynier

Valhallan42nd Investigated by Demogerg

Mekboy Investigated by Lord-Loss

Arctik-Firangi the odd-man-out.

That sounds like a reasonable idea. One thing I just thought of however, is that we do run the risk of the traitors finding out who the most devout among us are (OOC:: Any pro-town roles).

Doesnt it take over half of us to vote for a skull to be launched on someone?

Im all for this idea though.

Lord-Loss wrote:Doesnt it take over half of us to vote for a skull to be launched on someone?

It does, and the final vote is who gets the investigating information.

Gornall wrote:One thing I just thought of however, is that we do run the risk of the traitors finding out who the most devout among us are (OOC:: Any pro-town roles).

That is a pretty solid potential risk since they do appear to find everything out about the person. We just have to be careful about who we use as investigators. On the same side it's a bit of cat and mouse about not wanting the skulls to give the heretics too much info ((OOC - via a power role being investigated and outed)). Perhaps we just make an agreement that any interesting information that suggests someone is more able to help us be kept quiet and they are simply reported as a regular crewman?

Wait, if one of the investigators were a traitor couldn't they claim the person they just investigated is a traitor, then get him shot?

They could, but if we shoot that person and they're innocent then we would know the Investigator was guilty and could shoot them next time.

Lord-Loss wrote:Wait, if one of the investigators were a traitor couldn't they claim the person they just investigated is a traitor, then get him shot?

Exactly, and when said Innocent person is killed, and we all find out that he was innocent, then the person who Lied and claimed that the innocent person whas a traitor would be shot and killed.

One thing I do not like is Demogerg simply stating what the ordering would be. While I understand that is the ordering on the roster, (speaking hypothetically here) if you were a traitor, you could have noticed that even with it's seemingly random nature, the ordering could benefit you and your accomplice. Could we come up with multiple options and draw straws/flip coins/other random process to pick one of the multiple orderings to prevent any one person from being in control?

I've been thinking about it, and I've come to this conclusion: the loyal techpriests should declare themselves as such.

This means if two people declare themselves to be techpriests we know they're telling the truth. If four people declare themselves to be techpriests they will be set into two factions, and we will know one faction to be loyal and one to be heretical.

If only two people answer the call, they cannot be lynched, because we know they are loyal. Thus, they will be targeted by the heretics; this is a necessary evil, and the Omnissiah will remember their sacrifice. The advantage to this is it gives us a better chance to use the servo skulls. We have two options here.

Option 1: we won't let either techpriest use the skulls, because they are a good choice to be killed. Thus, the heretics will have to choose between letting both of the techpriests live or letting every person using a servo skull live.

Option 2: we let both of the techpriests have the skulls; we will probably have one survive, and we know he can be trusted to tell us the truth about who was investigated.

If the heretics decide to masquerade as loyal techpriests their goose is cooked. We'll shoot one of the four "techpriests", and if they're a heretic, shoot their partner next turn, if they're loyalist, we know who to kill the next two turns. We can then use the servo skulls to investigate the possibility of a third heretic.

The problem I see is that if we don't do this now, the heretics may kill a loyal techpriest, and that would allow a heretic to claim that he was his partner. The real partner wouldn't be able to garner any more proof than him.

Also, while reducing the number of (loyalist) people will increase the chances of the skull investigating a heretic if given to a loyalist, it will also increase the chances of a heretic getting the skull. For this reason, I'm more inclined to release them all today.

What do you guys think? If you have disagreements, please state them in a concise and logical manner, so as to avoid "snowing" my ideas in a manner which would prove them to be valid but too dangerous to you.

Also, please, let us discuss this further and agree, before the techpriests reveal themselves, or any voting is done concerning the servo skulls (or god forbid, the laspistol).

I don't know if revealing themselves offers us with anything besides an easy target for the heretics. Remember, there is at LEAST two traitors among us. If there is a third, it would be likely they could kill both of the Techpriests in one night. However, with us using the skulls, it's possible that the Tech Priests could be revealed anyway. It's a tricky proposition any way you look at it.

I agree, we should work this over to verify there are no potential loopholes to be exploited.

The techpriests coming forward seems a good idea overall. getting two confirmed loyalists who can self-verify is a difficult roadblock for any heretical scum amongst us. I also like the cut of option 2, as that way we can verify loyalist eyes only upon investigation reports which will provide us even more accurate information.

The only potential issue I see is that techpriests coming forward now puts a big target on them early - but I think as long as we get them using servo skulls anyway (which would put a big target on them no matter what) alleviates that as an issue - thoughts?

I'd also very much like to hear Valhallan come back and more fully discuss why it's such a bad idea to release right now. He seemed pretty stringent about that and more and more it's looking like immediate release is clearly the tactically more sound option. I want to know if he still feels this way, and if he doesn't; why?

I do not like Option 2, as I think it makes it much easier for the heretics to eliminate the benefits of both the skulls and having two known loyalists in one fell swoop. By forcing them to kill people that are unknown (to us) in their loyalties (or risk the skulls revealing too much information), it will reduce the field of choices we have to make much faster than if the Tech Priests controlled the skulls (and were subsequently killed.

Gornall wrote:Remember, there is at LEAST two traitors among us. If there is a third, it would be likely they could kill both of the Techpriests in one night.

That's a very good point that I hadn't thought of. If there are enough heretics they might just overpower the techpriests and rob us of both confirmed loyalists but also potentially two investigations.

My understanding is the only way both techpriests could be killed would be for there to be two regular heretics and a possessed, or four regular heretics.

However one thing to note is that the heretics might target whichever techpriest's investigation they think is more damming.

Orkeosaurus wrote:My understanding is the only way both techpriests could be killed would be for there to be two regular heretics and a possessed, or four regular heretics.

((OOC - You are correct - but it seems logical to suppose that if we get 3 heretics 1 will be possessed. I suspect (and hope, for the Imperium's sake) that we do not have 4 heretics onboard.))

However one thing to note is that the heretics might target whichever techpriest's investigation they think is more damming.

That is true, presuming they lack the ability to kill both at the same time.

Orkeosaurus wrote:My understanding is the only way both techpriests could be killed would be for there to be two regular heretics and a possessed, or four regular heretics.

However one thing to note is that the heretics might target whichever techpriest's investigation they think is more damming.

But still you wish to put both of our Techpriests into harms way with the hope that they can root out the heretics before they are both slain?

If it saves the Glorious Titan, then I think the priests revealing themselves is a valid tactic.

Valhallan42nd wrote:If it saves the Glorious Titan, then I think the priests revealing themselves is a valid tactic.

Along with that thought, Valhallan, it still begs the question of where you stand vis'a'vi the timing of a servo skull launch. Do you support a launch now ((Day 1)) with a Techpriest reveal? What about without one?

BrotherStynier wrote:But still you wish to put both of our Techpriests into harms way with the hope that they can root out the heretics before they are both slain?

Eh, they're expendible.

The problem is that if one of the techpriests dies then we can't get two-way confirmation on who the two techpriests are. That means all it takes is for one genestealer to claim to be the techpriest; but if we find out he was lying we don't have a lead as to who the other genestealers are. That's why this plan will probably work best today, before anyone is lynched, if we go through with it.

I think it is an interesting tactic... but I don't know if it is the best one. What does their coming out give us? What does it give our enemies? Yes, it allows us to KNOW who two innocents are early on, but they would simply be killed very soon, depriving us of that benefit. Would it be better for all of us to remain unaware of who the Tech Priests are, that way the heretics have to kill loyal people at random, allowing the Tech Priest to reveal themselves at a more opportune time, such as when one of them is in danger of being shot? That would allow us to know who likely culprits are as they were trying to shoot an innocent. Further, it is a ploy that the heretics cannot try, as if they did, the real Tech Priests could step forward after the herectics have placed themselves in the open. I think both methods have advantages and pitfalls that must be considered carefully.

Orkeosaurus wrote: The problem is that if one of the techpriests dies then we can't get two-way confirmation on who the two techpriests are. That means all it takes is for one genestealer to claim to be the techpriest; but if we find out he was lying we don't have a lead as to who the other genestealers are. That's why this plan will probably work best today, before anyone is lynched, if we go through with it.

That is a very good point. To discredit the Tech Priests if they both revealed today would require both of the traitors. However, I am confused by what you mean by "genestealers"?

Why... I merely hypothesize that the ultimate goal of this takeover is to destroy the Poseidon Complex on Gordela II. This would allow the traitors to procure the geneseed samples in cold storage there, which I fear they will use to their dastardly ends.

Hence the term "genestealer" (although I vaguely remember there being a type of alien with a similar nickname).

Indeed Orkeosarus, this reminds me of a game we used to play on Gyphonne IV when I was a child. "Purge the Xenos Sympathizer"...

Of course, the stakes are much deadlier now.

The day phase of Turn 1 has ended. Please PM night actions by 11:59PM two days hence. Seven turns will remain thereafter.

Day Phase of Turn Two Begins

In alphabetical order:

Gornall
Stynier
Valhallan

have been wounded! Each has one remaining wound.

This day phase will end three days hence at 11:59PM EST. Good luck to all!

Well, isn't that just peachy - we do have three heretics aboard. That will make the use of servo skulls complicated to say the least.

Unfortunately I was unable to see who it was that attacked me.

Brothers take heart! The heretics have made a grave error in not killing me. I am the Secutor, so one of the other wounds was retaliation for attacking me. His light has shown on us!

OOC:: It would have actually been better for us had they killed me, as it would have revealed me as the Secutor and given us both suspects on a silver platter... hehehe

Either Stynier or Valhallan must be a heretic, as their attack on me allowed me to hurt them in the struggle. However, the other is likely an innocent victim of the other heretic.

EDIT: OOC:: Let's get moving quick this day phase since they're only three actual days long. That kinda took me by suprise on the last one.

<Looks at Thor and Valhallan locked in their struggle over the pistol.>

I think someone needs to make sure Valhallan has nothing to do with the pistol anymore until his name is cleared. I dare not grab it as my actions could be construed as hostile.

(OOC:I was under the impression that the pistol was on the floor, I don't recall Valhallan picking the weapon up.)

(OOC:: I'm pretty sure Valhallan is carrying it and Thor is the only one trying to wrest it from him)

(OOC:But he didn't say he picked up the weapon. They just assumed he did.)

OOC::Status Update Please!

While you're here Stynier... what say you about last night's events?

Only that after yesterday's discusion I went back to my duty station to try and see if I could get my post up and running again before getting some rest. Before I had the chance to test a theory I heard movement behind me. When I turned to look I was clubbed over the head.

Since I am soon to be dead, it seems, I will reveal that I am one of the tech priests. If my fellow tech priest wishes to confirm that, or remain hidden, that is his perogitive.

This means that either three of you are traitors, or that we have a secutor amongst us, and that either Gornall or Stynier is a traitor. I would suggest checking both of them out, and perhaps two others as well to be sure.

I shoot stynier

OOC:: I thought Valhallan and Thor were locked?

I am the Secutor. If you look over my transcripts, I was the one who brought up that the skulls might reveal any specialized roles among us to the traitors. I wouldn't have done this if I was trying to betray the Emperor. Further, if I was a traitor, why would I have claimed to be a Secutor, when I could have easily have said, "Oh, there must be three traitors among us."? As a traitor, claiming to be the Secutor would only doom the other traitor(s) and would serve no real purpose.

Status Update

Valhallan controls the pistol but cannot shoot it because Thor is wresting it away from him.

Valhallan, Demogerg, and Lord Loss are voting to deploy a servo skull targeting Demogerg.

OOC:: Talking quickly before we go to Night Phase.

If Stynier is in fact a traitor, then I recommend having the non-wounded survivors do a round-robin with the skulls. If Stynier is NOT the traitor, then obviously Valhallan is a traitor (assuming that you believe me to be the Secutor). I actually hope to survive the night as attacking me again would kill the wounded traitor, or would mark the unwounded one(s) for death.

EDIT: OOC:: Looks like we were locked and weren't going into night phase. However, what I said still stands.

"He tried to shoot me!" I yell pointing at Valhallan, "Why would some one loyal to the Omnissiah do something so rash?"

BrotherStynier wrote:"He tried to shoot me!" I yell pointing at Valhallan, "Why would some one loyal to the Omnissiah do something so rash?"

If he is in fact a loyal subject and believes that I am the Secutor, then I can see why he would try to shoot.

Can the other Tech priest vouch for him? If what he says is true, we have truly been blessed.

We really do need to hear from the other tech priest to verify things - until that point I am very much suspicious of Valhallan trying to shoot Stynier so quickly and am happy I was here wresting away the pistol to prevent such rashness.

We need to hear from another tech priest before we shoot Stynier in order to verify Valhallan's loyalty. Otherwise it is pretty strange that he wanted to shoot so quickly.

If we get a tech priest confirming Valhallan then we can shoot Stynier - if Stynier turns up guilty then we know Gornall is telling the truth. If Styneir turns up innocent then we know Gornall is a traitor and can shoot him.

If we don't hear from a tech priest we should probably shoot Valhallan, and then Stynier (and if both are innocent then Gornall) At the very least we do seem to be in a good situation because we now appear to have one of the heretics trapped and located.

Hmmm......

Deploy Skull at Valhallan

Im now suspicous of our trigger happy friend.

Praise the Omnissiah that Thor was holding Valhallan, and I agree with what Thor said.

It sounds like a good plan.

Aye... I agree with Thor. If a Tech Priest will step forward and vouch for Valhallan, then Stynier should be executed. However, if one does not, then it would appear that Valhallan is actually the traitor. I think it should be noted that Stynier did not wrest the gun away from Valhallan and shoot Valhallan or even myself. I think we need to outline what possible things happened last night. With three wounds we know have the following possibilities:

Assuming we have two Heretics:
1. Each heretic attacked a seperate person, and one was wounded by the Secutor (This is what happened, as I am the Secutor) This would mean of the three wounded people, one is a Secutor, one is a traitor, and one is another innocent.
2. No other possible outcome.

Assuming three Heretics:
1. Two heretics attack seperate people while one lays low (OOC:: or didn't get his night activitie to Manchu ontime), with one of the people being a Secutor. Once again, this means one of three wounded is a traitor, one is a Secutor, and one is an innocent.
2. All three heretics attack seperate people, meaning that all three wounded are innocent.

I don't think I'm leaving any out, but if I am, please correct me.

Gornall wrote:I don't think I'm leaving any out, but if I am, please correct me.

I do think it's important to note a potential third possibility;

3 Heretics. One wounds himself, claims to be Secutor - knows he'll get two innocents killed before anyone suspects him could also be used to help his two Heretic buddies find out if there is a real Secutor who might come forward to counterclaim the false Secutor. I'm not saying it's more likely then some of the other scenarios, but we cannot overlook it as a possibility. One scum for two innocents is not a bad trade for the heretics methinks.

Now let's look at each person's actions in light of these possibilies:

Myself: I claimed to be a Secutor wounded by the heretics.
Stynier: Claimed to be an innocent wounded by the heretics.
Valhallan:Claimed to be a Tech Priest wounded by the heretics. Also tried to shoot Stynier.

Someone HAS to be lying. If I'm telling the truth, then I would have wounded one heretic, so either I'm lying about being a Secutor, or one of the others is lying about how they got hurt in the night.

I argue that I have no reason to lie about this whether I'm loyal or a traitor. If I'm loyal and was in fact wounded by a heretic, why would I lie at all? Why claim to be the Secutor, as the heretics would already know I'm not, and what purpose would deceiving you have?

If I was a traitor, the only way I could have been wounded (OOC:: unless there is a rule loophole that I don't know about), would have been by an actual Secutor. Therefore, claiming I'm actually the Secutor would serve no purpose other to cast doubt on the "actual" Secutor. However, neither Valhallan nor Stynier stood up and said "No! I'm the Secutor!", which is what would be expected if I was lying. In any case, if I was trying to betray you, I would have been better off simply arguing that we instead have three traitors in our midst, as that would have made me appear to be an innocent victim.

If you believe my arguments, then that would mean that either Valhallan or Stynier is lying.

Valhallan claims to be a Tech Priest, which is easy to verify if his compatriot comes forward. If one does not, then I would consider that damning evidence of his trechery. If he was a traitor, and someone came forward to vouch for him, then that person should probably be believed, as we could shoot Stynier and find out if they're both lying very quickly. I don't put too much stock in his hastyness to shoot Stynier, as if he is telling the truth, then I think that is a rational action if he believes me. He would eliminate one traitor before Stynier could twist lies and get him killed. Had he actually been a traitor, a better course of action would have been to shoot me (so I can't fight them off at night) and then kill Stynier in his sleep, leaving you with two less innocents and no information about who the remaining traitor is. However, he might not have thought about that and simply wanted to eliminate Stynier and get to night phase again quickly before we could regroup, possibly even going on a shooting spree before he went down.

Stynier, on the other hand, simply states that he is an innocent. This is harder to prove/disprove. I'm suprised he didn't wrest the gun away from Valhallan (as the second vote) and quickly fire to defend himself for the same reasons mentioned above. I'm not sure which of the two is telling the truth.

Thor665 wrote:

Gornall wrote:I don't think I'm leaving any out, but if I am, please correct me.

I do think it's important to note a potential third possibility;

3 Heretics. One wounds himself, claims to be Secutor - knows he'll get two innocents killed before anyone suspects him could also be used to help his two Heretic buddies find out if there is a real Secutor who might come forward to counterclaim the false Secutor. I'm not saying it's more likely then some of the other scenarios, but we cannot overlook it as a possibility. One scum for two innocents is not a bad trade for the heretics methinks.

OOC:: I don't think the heretics are allowed to wound themselves/each other, but we should check on that.

While that is a possibility, wouldn't it have been better to instead wound myself, claim there are three traitors to cause more confusion and simply hide in the shadows with everyone thinking I'm a loyal servant wounded in His service, keeping suspicion off me completely? I don't think it would behoove the traitors to openly put themselves out in lies that can be easily disproved, even if it is two days later.

And actually, I don't think 2 for 1 is a good trade for the heretics. A lone traitor will have a hard time killing healthy people at night, so that would especially put time on the side of the loyalists if one traitor was eliminated. Further, only having one traitor makes the skulls much more useful. However, with three of them, it might be a sacrifice they're willing to make.

EDITS: Added last section and clarified after realizing that three of them might think it would be worth it.

Gornall wrote:If I was a traitor, the only way I could have been wounded (OOC:: unless there is a rule loophole that I don't know about),

((OOC - via their rules posted on the first page - they can inflict one wound on a target character. There is no limitation about self-targeting. Therefore a heretic could self-target in an attempt to prove innocence.))

However, neither Valhallan nor Stynier stood up and said "No! I'm the Secutor!", which is what would be expected if I was lying. In any case, if I was trying to betray you, I would have been better off simply arguing that we instead have three traitors in our midst, as that would have made me appear to be an innocent victim.

((OOC - Unless your goal was to draw out the real Secutor - who may not have even been attacked and may not even be in the game, since he's an optional role. Your Secutor-ship is thus suspect until we can verify if either Valhallan or Stynier are heretics.))

If you believe my arguments, then that would mean that either Valhallan or Stynier is lying.

I totally agree that at least one of you is lying - we're working on figuring out who. The 'buddy' techpriest coming forward would help, if there's a real Secutor I'm not sure if he should or should not say anything yet.

Valhallan claims to be a Tech Priest, which is easy to verify if his compatriot comes forward. If one does not, then I would consider that damning evidence of his trechery. If he was a traitor, and someone came forward to vouch for him, then that person should probably be believed, as we could shoot Stynier and find out if they're both lying very quickly.

Agreed - though his sudden shooting action was rather anti-Imperium, he also included the odd language that his partner "might" come forward, which was sort of defending himself if no one did which is weird and doesn't make sense to me. Still, at the moment we're waiting to see if there's a techpriest who will verify him for us.

I don't put too much stock in his hastyness to shoot Stynier, as if he is telling the truth, then I think that is a rational action if he believes me. He would eliminate one traitor before Stynier could twist lies and get him killed.

If he's a techpriest with a partner he's already safe and should know so. Why rush if you know someone can clear your name?

Stynier, on the other hand, simply states that he is an innocent. This is harder to prove/disprove. I'm suprised he didn't wrest the gun away from Valhallan (as the second vote) and quickly fire to defend himself for the same reasons mentioned above. I'm not sure which of the two is telling the truth.

So far Stynier seems more likely Imperium, but Valhallan has had the more suspicious actions. That's why I wanted to make sure to mention the possibility of you being a suspect, as you still are. If Valhallan can get a techpriest to clear him then probably we should shoot Stynier. If Stynier is innocent then we should shoot either you or Valhallan (as the Techpriest buddy might be a heretic buddy). But at the very least we really need to hear from the other (or the other two) techpriests before we run off and shoot anyone.

Gornall wrote:While that is a possibility, wouldn't it have been better to instead wound myself, claim there are three traitors to cause more confusion and simply hide in the shadows with everyone thinking I'm a loyal servant wounded in His service, keeping suspicion off me completely? I don't think it would behoove the traitors to openly put themselves out in lies that can be easily disproved, even if it is two days later.

I disagree. With a potential mass servo skull release they have to be a bit nervous about that. If they have three heretics then the game plan could go thusly

Night 1 - Wound two people and one self wound - self wounded heretic claims secutor and that one of other two is heretic. Get one of them shot. (1 dead innocent)
Night 2 - Wound two additional people. "Secutor" claims non shot person from Night 1 must be heretic because he is Secutor - gets that person shot. (1 dead innocent)
Night 3 - Wound two people you wounded on Night 2, killing them. "Secutor" is easy option to shoot because he is now obvious scum. (2 dead innocents, 1 dead heretic)

((OOC - That would leave us with 4 players left alive, two of which are heretics. If one of them is Possessed then Heretics win.))

Thor665 wrote:

Gornall wrote:While that is a possibility, wouldn't it have been better to instead wound myself, claim there are three traitors to cause more confusion and simply hide in the shadows with everyone thinking I'm a loyal servant wounded in His service, keeping suspicion off me completely? I don't think it would behoove the traitors to openly put themselves out in lies that can be easily disproved, even if it is two days later.

I disagree. With a potential mass servo skull release they have to be a bit nervous about that. If they have three heretics then the game plan could go thusly

Night 1 - Wound two people and one self wound - self wounded heretic claims secutor and that one of other two is heretic. Get one of them shot. (1 dead innocent)
Night 2 - Wound two additional people. "Secutor" claims non shot person from Night 1 must be heretic because he is Secutor - gets that person shot. (1 dead innocent)
Night 3 - Wound two people you wounded on Night 2, killing them. "Secutor" is easy option to shoot because he is now obvious scum. (2 dead innocents, 1 dead heretic)

((OOC - That would leave us with 4 players left alive, two of which are heretics. If one of them is Possessed then Heretics win.))

That is actually a good plan, so I can see how there could be some suspicion on me. However, you will soon find that suspcion is misplaced. If it helps, you will notice that I was concerned about revealing our loyalist roles with the skulls on the first day, something that would concern a true Secutor. I know it seems somewhat trivial, but every clue should be considered.

I do agree that Valhallan did seem to be hedging his bets with his choice of words. Unless another Tech Priest turns up quickly, he is my most likely suspect.

Wrest the pistol away from Valhallan

Don't take this as aggressive, as I will not shoot anyone unless we decide as a group. However, I don't think it is safe for Valhallan to hold the pistol any longer, as Stynier could take it from him and shoot (if he is a traitor). If a neutral party such as Thor wants to take it from me, I would appreciate it.

OOC:: Would love to see more people talking... this games seems to be moving slower than past ones. That gives me an itchy trigger finger.

I am one of the tech priests, and unfortunately, my fellow priest is not "awake" yet (IE, not in the thread). Either way, he might be hesitant to reveal himself.

Shooting Styner will either prove him a traitor, or prove Gornall a liar. I'm a dead man either way, so I have nothing to lose. You all have nothing to gain by sending a skull my way, because it's likely a wasted effort.

I'm thinking Gornall is the secutor, because noone else has claimed it, certainly not Brother Styneir. Brother Styner was active at the same time I attempted to shoot him, as was Gornall. If Brother Styner was the secutor, we would lose nothing by not claiming it at the same time. The fact that he did not speaks volumes.

Since Gornall now has the pistol, I will wrest it away from him.

Again, this guantees I will not have possession of the pistol, as one man cannot wrest it away from any other, and it keeps it neutral.

((Edit - ninja-ed in my Gornall wrest by Valhallan, I'll leave them fighting over it.))

gornall wrote:OOC:: Would love to see more people talking... this games seems to be moving slower than past ones. That gives me an itchy trigger finger.

(OOC: and we have less time to do our actions in as well, which makes conversation even more critical.)

And I would unvote that Servo Skull vote, Lord Loss. The traitors would likely vote for deployment, and then simply kill me in the night, so it would be the waste of a skull.

Valhallan, I think you should say who the other Tech Priest is in order to prevent an imposter from stepping in and claiming that mantle if something should happen to you. Then when that person wakes up, they can confirm/deny your story.

Actually Thor, I think you should wrest it from me, that way neither Valhallan or Stynier can quickly grab it and shoot it.

I will note I'm happy that Valhallan chose to put himself in the one spot it's basically impossible for him to get the laspistol from. That is much more reassuring then his earlier trigger happiness.

I would suggest we at least give enough time for others to show up, as that may yet clear Valhallan by the appearance of a fellow tech priest.

Gornall wrote:Actually Thor, I think you should wrest it from me, that way neither Valhallan or Stynier can quickly grab it and shoot it.

I disagree - at the moment Valhallan cannot get the laspistol since any help will either give it to you or a new wrester. There's not much we can do to prevent both Stynier and Valhallan from getting the pistol at the moment - but Stynier has seemed the least trigger happy of the three of you.

I'm saying you take it and no one wrest it. Having it in limbo allows any random person to quickly grab it and shoot it before we can react. I'd rather have one person who "could" shoot it if they chose have a firm grip on it than have any number of people who could shoot it by rushing in and grabbing it while two others are fighting.

Wrest Pistol away


I say we start deploying Servo skulls as planned, then use Thor's plan.

Nothing happened yesterday, while we are a bit closer to the truth. We still have a long, long way to go.

Okay... no one wrest it from Lord Loss. He will be our neutral party.

I say we wait on skulls until we decide which of the three of us wounded people gets shot. Our chances of them being useful will increase if we can eliminate a traitor today.

If we shoot an innocent today, then the traitors could finish off the injured people during the night. Leaving a small amount of loyalist left.

Forgive me, Brother, but Orkeo is the other Priest. I do beleive I've doomed him, but he would confirm my story.

Lord Loss, I'd suggest shooting Brother Styner. Now.

defends lord loss

I think our chances of shooting an innocent are VERY small today if we can get everyone involved. If a Techpriest will confirm Valhallan's story, we will know that Stynier is the traitor. If a Tech Priest does not, then we know Valhallan is heretical scum. That is assuming you believe me to be the Secutor. I'm trying to think of ways to prove my innocence. Maybe the best would be to stick with Thor's plan of killing one of those two and using a skull or two to investigate me. If I am the Secutor, I should surive the night as further attacks on me will reveal the traitors. Their best bet to deal with me is to attack me with the pistol. However, if one of them manages to use the skull against me, they could also lie about the results. I am stumped. My fate lies solely in the hands of the Tech Priests. If they come foward, we can shoot one likely traitor and then use the skulls to determine who was lying if we were wrong.

Wrests the Pistol from Lord Loss

Don't shoot yet! Give everyone time to wake up!

I still say the important thing to do is wait for a techpriest to come forward to clear Valhallan. If that happens we'll be looking pretty good as far as our odds for shooting a traitor.

@Lord-Loss - of course, if Gornall is the Secutor then at the very least he's fairly safe from nightkills as killing him will "mark" a heretic for us. If he's not the Secutor we face a tougher choice.

Do not worry, I have no intention of shooting anyone. Well not into we have all decided.

Yikes ((my last post was being written while some of this activity happened))

((Lord Loss had the pistol
Valhallan defended - doing nothing, yes?
Gornall wrested, putting the pistol in the box, yes?))

Staus Update Please

OOC:: I want to verify that Lord Loss still has full control of the pistol and that another wrest vote would prevent him from shooting, but NOT take the pistol from him.

Valhallan, why are you so focused on getting someone shot before we can discuss anything?

I'm certain that either Gornal or Brother Styner are traitors due to the injury pattern. If Brother Styner isn't a traitor, than Gornall is the next most likely suspect.

I am not a traitor. I will likely be dead soon, so you'll be able to verify that from my remains. If Orkeosaurus was here, he would confirm my story.

What I'm telling you is the truth. If I was one of the traitors, I would likely dissemble and hem and haw. As a loyalist, I am dedicated to action in the name of our Lord Emperor.

All the talk in the universe will not wrinkle out the traitors amongst us. Action, patterns of voting, logical process and verifiable facts are our only weapons. Pull the trigger, commit, and we shall discover the truth. Kill me, even, and you shall discover that I am loyal to the Omnissiah, which will tell you that Orkeosaurus is likely loyal as well.

By the way, I do not recommend killing me.

Lets stop this fighting, over the pistol.

It is safe in my hands, I have not been argueing like some, or attempting to shoot without thought like others.

::Cocks Head at Valhallan::

What is your reason for suspecting and attempting to kill Styner?

EDIT: GRAMMAR FAIL.

Lord-Loss wrote:It is safe in my hands,

((OOC - just to clarify - I'm pretty sure Gornall is wresting it from you currently.))

Didn't Valhallan defend me though?

So I am in control?

Thor665,

I am interested in discovering the truth before we lose the oppurtunity, as we did during the last day cycle. The Light of the Emperor will set us free. In this case, that light happens a bit more coherant, and its power happens to be contained in a Class 3 Standard Power Cell.

As for why I'm pressing, I suppose it is my nature to be impatient. It is one of the failings I strive to overcome. But, I am certain that this course will lead us to the truth. Three of us stand on the brink of oblivion, and our Princeps is dead. To not act is a sin against the Emperor Himself.

OOC, Lord loss, you have clearance to shoot at this time. My defense negates gornall's wrest.

Lord-Loss wrote:Didn't Valhallan defend me though?

((OOC - the way I read it suggests that defending is a counter action and would need to be used after someone tried to wrest. I don't think you can stack up defense actions like a wall. We probably need a FAQ ruling on this. That said, since I don't care for either Valhallan or Gornall to have the pistol right this moment)

Defends Lord-Loss

((If you didn't have the pistol before you do now...and you may or may not have a stacked up defense...))

I could shoot, but I wont. Why do you keep on saying your are going to die Valhallan?

Orkeo will be on soon and he will either save you, or doom you.

Valhallan42nd wrote:OOC, Lord loss, you have clearance to shoot at this time. My defense negates gornall's wrest.

OOC:: I think this is right.

I think Lord Loss should remain calm as he has to this point. We will wait for Orkesaurus to wake up and confirm your story before we shoot Stynier.

Starting playback:

Valhallan's vox warms up. Valhallan's own voice plays back, scratchy and thin:

Valhallan42nd wrote:
Shooting Styner will either prove him a traitor, or prove Gornall a liar. I'm a dead man either way, so I have nothing to lose. You all have nothing to gain by sending a skull my way, because it's likely a wasted effort.

I'm thinking Gornall is the secutor, because noone else has claimed it, certainly not Brother Styneir. Brother Styner was active at the same time I attempted to shoot him, as was Gornall. If Brother Styner was the secutor, we would lose nothing by not claiming it at the same time. The fact that he did not speaks volumes.

edited for spelling

Valhallan42nd wrote:As for why I'm pressing, I suppose it is my nature to be impatient. It is one of the failings I strive to overcome. But, I am certain that this course will lead us to the truth. Three of us stand on the brink of oblivion, and our Princeps is dead. To not act is a sin against the Emperor Himself.

It's just strange how eager you are is what I'm saying. And not only eager, but eager for Lord-Loss to pull the trigger for you after your failed attempt to blast Stynier earlier.

Lord-Loss wrote:I could shoot, but I wont. Why do you keep on saying your are going to die Valhallan?

Orkeo will be on soon and he will either save you, or doom you.

I was wounded during the night by the traitors. The wound is grevious, and should I take another, I will be dead. That is why I say that I will be dead soon. I am a marked man.

I don't want the pistol at all. I just panicked when I saw Valhallan yelling "Shoot him! Shoot him! I've got your back!", so I went to wrest it.

Drops his grip on Lord Loss's pistol

OOC:: I was reading the rules as you could stack defenses. I simply wanted to keep it where one wrest could prevent it from shooting, but it would take two votes to give to one of the suspects.

Thor665 wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:As for why I'm pressing, I suppose it is my nature to be impatient. It is one of the failings I strive to overcome. But, I am certain that this course will lead us to the truth. Three of us stand on the brink of oblivion, and our Princeps is dead. To not act is a sin against the Emperor Himself.

It's just strange how eager you are is what I'm saying. And not only eager, but eager for Lord-Loss to pull the trigger for you after your failed attempt to blast Stynier earlier.

Mistake not zeal for eagerness. I am certain of this course of action being fruitful.

I believe Gornall to be a secutor, since he claims it, and no-one else does.

Should he be lying, and we shoot Stynier in error, then it will confirm that Gornall is a liar, and that he is likely a traitor. Because who would claim to be a Secutor when they not, besides a traitor?

It could be that Stynier is a secutor. If that is true, why didn't he claim so when Gornall did. Had he immediately countermanded Gornall, then I would have had a reasonable doubt about who the Secutor was. He did not, therefore I find it unlikely that he is the Secutor.

It could be that I am a traitor. If I had been a traitor, I would have likely claimed to be the Secutor instead of the priest and tried to pin the foul deed on either Gornall or Brother Stynier.

I would not have claimed to be a priest. Why? Because claiming to be a priest forces you to single someone else out as being linked to you. If I was a traitor, I could only point to someone who was linked to me. I couldn't point to say, Random Person X and claim for him to be a priest. Because then Random Person X would say "No, I'm not". and then my goose would be cooked. If I was a traitor, I'd have to point at a person who was part of my conspiracy. Which would give the whole thing away. Also, if I was a traitor masquerading as a priest, I'd expose my traitorous ways to the real priests, who could act against me as a team.

So, to sum up, either Gornall or Brother Stynier is likely a traitor, and I'm not likely to be one. But I'm another stab wound from dying, so good luck to you loyalists.

OOC: I thought you said you dropped the pistol. I tried to grab it, my bad.

Edit: Removed after Valhallan removed his last post.

I didn't want a loose pistol lying about.

Clarifications

- Heretics can wound themselves.

- There are at least two Heretics.

- Preemptive defense counts for nothing. Defense only works if it counters an actual wrest-away. As such, it seems that LL has the laspistol but may not shoot because Thor is wresting.

Manchu wrote:- Preemptive defense counts for nothing. Defense only works if it counters an actual wrest-away. As such, it seems that LL has the laspistol but may not shoot because Thor is wresting.

((OOC - he can shoot. I'm defending))

OOC:: Good deal! Thanks for the clarifications.

Thor665 wrote:

Manchu wrote:- Preemptive defense counts for nothing. Defense only works if it counters an actual wrest-away. As such, it seems that LL has the laspistol but may not shoot because Thor is wresting.

((OOC - he can shoot. I'm defending))

Then, yes, he can shoot and you are doing nothing (unless I've missed someone else wresting).

Now we must decide what to do next.

Do we shoot, or wait for Orkeo?

Wait for Orkeo to confirm his story or the real Tech Priests to step forward and deny it. We still have a day before we need to make a decision.

OOC:: (to rap music) "Will the real Tech Priests please stand up, please stand up"

Whats the case against Stynler?

I am the Secutor, so when I was attacked in the night, I caused a wound. This means that either Valhallan or Stynier is one of the traitors.

Thor seems to think I could be one of three traitors and wounded myself to allow myself to claim to be a Secutor. However, that is not true.

If this Titan was such a target as to attract three traitors, I doubt it would have been left without a Secutor. Therefore, if I was indeed a traitor, why hasn't the "real" Secutor revealed himself yet? It's because I'm actually the real Secutor... and the traitors know that to lie to challenge this fact would reveal their true nature and allow us to purge them.

Lord-Loss wrote:Whats the case against Stynler?

It mainly stems from his injury, and from Gornall's rather plausible claim to be a secutor. Note, I am also injured, so it could point to me. However, either Orkeo or the logic below would be an excellent refutation of that idea.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Thor665 wrote:

Valhallan42nd wrote:
I believe Gornall to be a secutor, since he claims it, and no-one else does.

Should he be lying, and we shoot Stynier in error, then it will confirm that Gornall is a liar, and that he is likely a traitor. Because who would claim to be a Secutor when they not, besides a traitor?

It could be that Stynier is a secutor. If that is true, why didn't he claim so when Gornall did. Had he immediately countermanded Gornall, then I would have had a reasonable doubt about who the Secutor was. He did not, therefore I find it unlikely that he is the Secutor.

It could be that I am a traitor. If I had been a traitor, I would have likely claimed to be the Secutor instead of the priest and tried to pin the foul deed on either Gornall or Brother Stynier.

I would not have claimed to be a priest. Why? Because claiming to be a priest forces you to single someone else out as being linked to you. If I was a traitor, I could only point to someone who was linked to me. I couldn't point to say, Random Person X and claim for him to be a priest. Because then Random Person X would say "No, I'm not". and then my goose would be cooked. If I was a traitor, I'd have to point at a person who was part of my conspiracy. Which would give the whole thing away. Also, if I was a traitor masquerading as a priest, I'd expose my traitorous ways to the real priests, who could act against me as a team.

So, to sum up, either Gornall or Brother Stynier is likely a traitor, and I'm not likely to be one. But I'm another stab wound from dying, so good luck to you loyalists.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/19 22:15:27

Post by: Gornall

Valhallan42nd wrote:I believe Gornall to be a secutor, since he claims it, and no-one else does.

Should he be lying, and we shoot Stynier in error, then it will confirm that Gornall is a liar, and that he is likely a traitor. Because who would claim to be a Secutor when they not, besides a traitor?

I would argue that if we shot Stynier and he was in fact innocent, it would point to you as the culprit just as much, if not more, than me.

You have two questions to ask yourselves:

1. Do I believe Gornall to be the Secutor?
2. If so, which of the two others is the culprit?

If your answer to the first question is "no", then the obvious solution is to shoot me. (I don't endorse or advise this.) If your answer to the first question is "yes", then things become a little more muddied. We must sort out who the traitor is based on the words of the Tech Priests.

Reply by: Lord-Loss - click to view full reply 

18471

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/19 22:31:54

Post by: Lord-Loss

I think we need to take a vote (OOC: This is completely unoffical and just away to determine who is suspicous of who)

I vote for Stynier to be shot.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/19 22:37:06

Post by: Gornall

I will withhold my vote until Orkeo comes back or two other Tech Priests reveal themselves.

Reply by: Lord-Loss - click to view full reply 

18471

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/19 22:48:27

Post by: Lord-Loss

(OOC: Just realised that you have sigged me Gornall )

Reply by: Mekboy - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/19 22:57:46

Post by: Mekboy

I personally think that Lord-Loss appears quite a suspicious character. On the other hand he has a gun, so it might not be the best idea to start pointing fingers at him.

EDIT: grammar

Reply by: Valhallan42nd - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/19 23:09:14

Post by: Valhallan42nd

OOC: Channeling Ash? Good... Bad... I'm the one with the gun.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/19 23:21:46

Post by: Gornall

Keeping track, I show that Demogerg, Arctik-Firangi, and Orkeo are the only ones that haven't been seen since last night. Unless two of the three are Tech Priests, I think we will have to believe Valhallan.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/19 23:54:51

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Woe to me, good servants of the Mechanicus!

The sacred power cords of my most holy lap sitting computation device have turned against me!

I have prayed long and hard to the machine spirits that dwell within them, but it is all for naught. Hopefully I was able to find a substitute before it was too late.


Valhallan is a loyal Techpriest, as am I!

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/19 23:58:49

Post by: Gornall

Praise be to Him! Do Demogerg or Arctik-Firangi dispute this? Once we have heard from them, then I think it is safe to say Valhallan is innocent and Stynier is a traitor. Because of this, I cast a vote for Stynier to be shot until we hear otherwise from them.

OOC:: Laptop problems?

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 00:20:22

Post by: Orkeosaurus

I feel Valhallan should have the pistol in hand [since he is likely to have better computer access; yeah, my laptop's power cord burned out on me]. What would be the best way of going about this?

Lord Loss, would you be so kind as to give the laspistol to Valhallan?

I will also vote that Stynier be shot.

Furthermore I will vote to:

Deploy servo skull against Thor665

Deploy servo skull against Demogerg

Deploy servo skull against Mekboy

Deploy servo skull against Lord-Loss

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 00:29:57

Post by: Gornall

Status Update (skull counts), Please!

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:03:34

Post by: Manchu

Status Update

Valhallan, Demogerg, Orkeo, and Lord Loss vote to deploy against Demogerg.

Lord Loss votes to deploy against Valhallan.

Orkeo votes to deploy against Thor, Mekboy, and Lord Loss.

Lord Loss controls the laspistol and may shoot.

Gornall, Stynier, and Valhallan are wounded.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

8044

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:07:19

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

Since I have not yet been wounded, I will vote for a servo-skull deployment against Demogerg.

I will also submit my approval for the disposal of Stynier. Either he is a traitor, or we will at least be given a very good idea of whom one of the others is.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:10:01

Post by: Orkeosaurus

We can assume you are not claiming to be a Techpriest, then?


For safety's sake, I feel that I must wrest away the laspistol from Lord Loss.

I have no reason to suspect him of being a traitor, but I can't take the chance.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

8044

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:13:36

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

Orkeosaurus wrote:I have no reason to suspect him of being a traitor, but I can't take the chance.

You can't take the chance? What an interesting choice of words...

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:14:46

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Also, if Gornall is truly the Secutor he should deploy a servo skull.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:15:03

Post by: Gornall

So it looks like Artik will be getting the results from Demogerg's skull probe. Do we want to send out more skulls before executing Stynier?

Also, as I've said before, having the gun in limbo is not a good idea. Wrests the gun from Lord Loss! Someone else can take it, but I don't think having it where Stynier could grab it is good.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:16:26

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Wait, not double post. I just erased my post. Damn this computer!

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:18:04

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Is it possible for me to pick up the laspistol now?

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:18:57

Post by: Gornall

I think I control it, so you would contest it. This makes it so if Stynier wanted, he could grab it before we could react, so I don't recommend that unless you really want the gun or are afraid I'm going to shoot it. I'm just planning on holding it until we get a few more votes in.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:19:25

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I have no reason to suspect him of being a traitor, but I can't take the chance.

You can't take the chance? What an interesting choice of words...

I am a loyal Techpriest, so you need not fear my posession of the weapon.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

8044

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:19:37

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

If my count is correct, the Lord Loss has the pistol, Thor is defending him, and both Orkeosaurus and Gornall are trying to wrest it away, right? That leaves it neutral for now.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:20:05

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Gornall, could you drop the laspistol so I can have it?

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:21:28

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Wait, I thought if it was being held, wrested, and defended that meant the next wrest controlled it.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:22:22

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

Looking back, Valhallan is also defending Lord Loss.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:22:59

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Wait, nevermind, I misread it.

I cease to wrest away the laspistol.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:23:22

Post by: Gornall

Arctik_Firangi wrote:If my count is correct, the Lord Loss has the pistol, Thor is defending him, and both Orkeosaurus and Gornall are trying to wrest it away, right? That leaves it neutral for now.

You can't preemptively defend, so Lord Loss had it, Orkeo wrestled for it, and I was the second person to wrestle it, so I have full control at the moment. I'm simply going to hold onto it until I can count the votes we have in so far.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:25:04

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Yeah. Valhallan isn't a traitor, but I don't know that he's justified in defending Lord Loss. He probably is.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:26:25

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Jeez, this pistol business in confusing.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:27:09

Post by: Gornall

I show Valhallan, myself, Orkeo, and Arctik voting to shoot Stynier.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

8044

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:28:16

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

Gornall wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:If my count is correct, the Lord Loss has the pistol, Thor is defending him, and both Orkeosaurus and Gornall are trying to wrest it away, right? That leaves it neutral for now.

You can't preemptively defend

Oh, I see that now... nevermind.

EDIT: I believe you can add Lord-Loss to the list of people voting to 'lynch'?

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:29:18

Post by: Orkeosaurus

So we need a fifth vote. (Unless Gornall fiats it.)

Let's go someone!

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:29:55

Post by: Gornall

Gornall wrote:I show Valhallan, myself, Orkeo, and Arctik voting to shoot Stynier.

And Lord Loss.... That's 5 votes.

Shoot Stynier

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:30:53

Post by: Gornall

Orkeo and Valhallan... if you are lying you will be my next targets.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:31:15

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Emperor be praised!

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:34:23

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Um, about Stynier being shot, not about me being your next target.

Have no fear, if we were lying we would have been called out by now.

You are the one who should worry. It isn't possible for either Valhallan or I to have lied, unless the actual Techpriests are intentionally screwing over their own team for some reason.

You however, could have lied. It's possible for Stynier to have been the Secutor, and for you to have been wounded trying to kill him. I have a lot more faith in you than him, because you were forthright with your role, but Valhallan and I are still the most trustworthy people in this titan.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:42:24

Post by: Gornall

OOC:: BOOM!! HEADSHOT!!!

I am not lying about my role, so the only question in my mind is whether you and Valhallan are lying. I don't think you are, as either of the loyal Tech Priests could have stepped in at any point.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

9708

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:44:22

Post by: Orkeosaurus

If Stynier is innocent the blood is on your hands, Gornall, as you have no proof of your status as a Secutor yet, and I have proof of my being a Techpriest.

(Of course, that is only from the viewpoint of a third party.)

Edit for clarification.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 01:46:37

Post by: Gornall

If you're a Tech Priest, than Stynier is definately a traitor and neither you nor I have anything to worry about besides the other traitors amongst us.

OOC:: Well crap... Manchu is offline. Now we have to wait.

Reply by: Valhallan42nd - click to view full reply 

6292

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 02:28:46

Post by: Valhallan42nd

OOC: MANCHU, We need you!

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

11693

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 04:38:28

Post by: Thor665

((OOC - Man, go to the game store for Thursday 40k and come back to find dead bodies everywhere...))

This looks like it will go very well for us. With Orkeo confirming Valhallan's story, and no one else contesting clearly they are the techpriests. Now with Stynier dead we just need to verify whether he was a traitor or not. If he was, then we got one. If he wasn't then clearly Gornall is a traitor.

Not too shabby for the first round of executions though - we know for a fact we either just shot a traitor or will have one soon.

Also, as a plus we have two confirmed Imperials in Orkeo and Valhallan (and perhaps a third in Gornall). With two to three loyal Imperials we can even set up the servo skulls somewhat safely to scan the rest of us.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

11693

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 04:43:03

Post by: Thor665

Arctik_Firangi wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I have no reason to suspect him of being a traitor, but I can't take the chance.

You can't take the chance? What an interesting choice of words...

Why would you question him on this? Nobody else has claimed to be a techpriest - *clearly* Orkeo is a techpriest and as such his loyalty is more assured then Gornall's or anyone else here besides Valhallan.

The only danger is if Stynier doesn't come up as a heretic - in which case we're going to have to be ready in the morning to wrest the gun away from Gornall before he shoots anyone else. If Stynier is a heretic though then Gornall is almost assuredly the Secutor.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 04:49:09

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

How do we rule out Valhallan and Orkeo, exactly?

If there are more than two traitors, there are a couple of tricks I can think of. Since this is a game of multiple wounds, a traitor could wound another traitor to make him 'appear' innocent. Another may not necessarily have to inflict a wound at all, disguising the fact that there may be indeed be three or more traitors (I doubt that there are more, but I can't rule out three). We would do well to not get too comfortable.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

11693

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 05:12:20

Post by: Thor665

Arctik_Firangi wrote:How do we rule out Valhallan and Orkeo, exactly?

If there are more than two traitors, there are a couple of tricks I can think of. Since this is a game of multiple wounds, a traitor could wound another traitor to make him 'appear' innocent. Another may not necessarily have to inflict a wound at all, disguising the fact that there may be indeed be three or more traitors (I doubt that there are more, but I can't rule out three). We would do well to not get too comfortable.

Okay - let's presume three traitors and that one traitor wounded another; at that point Gornall has to be a traitor, because he is claiming Secutor, and for three wounds, one self inflicted, a Secutor won't fit in the equation. (I do believe this is a possibility) Valhallan in this instance is innocent techpriest and Orkeo his fellow.
If Gornall is telling the truth - and he is a Secutor - then that suggests only two traitors (or perhaps three and they opted not to inflict a wound - unlikely IMO) If he's Secutor then either Valhallan or Stynier are the traitor who was wounded by the Secutor power. The only way for Valhallan to be a traitor is for orkeo to then also be a traitor. Therefore Stynier is more likely a traitor - and if he isn't we've just caught both of the other traitors.

Also, the game has two techpriests guaranteed. I'm not a techpriest, Gornall isn't (he's Secutor or heretic), Stynier isn't (innocent or traitor), and Lord-Loss isn't because he was requesting a techpriest confession. Both you and Mekboy have heard Orkeo and Valhallan claim to be techpriests and have said nothing about it as well.

That leaves only Demogerg as the odd man out - and there can't be a one man techpriest team. Therefore we *know* that at least one techpriest has seen Orkeo and Valhallan claim techpriest. I submit that any techpriest would have called them on it and tried to get them shot since they would then be obvious heretics. Since this has not happened they are obvious techpriests - hence my confusion for why you're casting aspersions upon them.

The only way your logic seems to pan out is if either Gornall, Orkeo, and Valhallan are all heretics together or if Valhallan, Orkeo, and Stynier are the heretics and one of them opted not to inflict a wound on someone and that the loyal techpriest who read their announcement decided not to say anything about them lying.

Reply by: Valhallan42nd - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 05:15:45

Post by: Valhallan42nd

Arctik_Firangi wrote:How do we rule out Valhallan and Orkeo, exactly?

If there are more than two traitors, there are a couple of tricks I can think of. Since this is a game of multiple wounds, a traitor could wound another traitor to make him 'appear' innocent. Another may not necessarily have to inflict a wound at all, disguising the fact that there may be indeed be three or more traitors (I doubt that there are more, but I can't rule out three). We would do well to not get too comfortable.

Let me explain.

I have claimed to be a Techpriest. I have claimed Orkeo is a Techpriest. Orkeo has proclaimed this to be true, Omnilujah, Ave Imperator, Omnilujah.

This presents two probable scenarios:

1. We are telling the truth.

2. We are secretly the traitors.

There are two problems with "Us being the traitors" scenario. 1. If we're not the priests, then why aren't the priests protesting? 2. If I was an Evil Chaos Mutant Scum, I could only get another Evil Chaos Mutant Scum to vouch for me. Thus, if I was a Evil Chaos Mutant Scum, and I was proven to be an Evil Chaos Mutant Scum, I would have just put a big target on the other Evil Chaos Mutant Scum, making the loyalist's position that much easier.

Technomagus Occum would have something to say about your options.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 05:42:21

Post by: Manchu

Someone has been shot? Why is there still talking? C'mon guys . . . wait for the update.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 06:39:16

Post by: Manchu

End of Turn 2 Day Phase

Sorry guys, I've been trying to run a game of Descent tonight with my IRL group in MI.

After reviewing your actions since the last update, Gornall did indeed shoot BrotherStynier.

Gasps hissing through augmetic respirators are muffled by the crackling laspistol shot. Stynier's remaining eye of flesh rolls back up into his head as he slowly sinks to his knees and then falls over, blood slowly draining from his forehead. Rushing forward, you pull back his rust-colored cowl to reveal a face some of you may have grown trust. Those who always suspected him, smirk--at least those who still have lips--when the mark is found at the base of his skull: the unmistakable eight-pointed star of Chaos Undivided. A heretic . . . how many more could there be?

Those who can perform night actions, please PM me within two IRL days.

Reply by: Demogerg - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 13:06:28

Post by: Demogerg

(OOC):just posting to show that I am still here, I am busy all day on thursdays, so 5 pages of things went down without me checking!

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/20 14:34:18

Post by: Gornall

OOC:: Are you waiting the full 2 days before updating or are you going to post fairly soon after you get the night activities in? (Wondering so I know whether to keep checking this thread today/tomorrow)

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 00:26:07

Post by: Manchu

Night actions are currently in but I am waiting for some clarifications. They might not come in until after midnight, but this is not a rules violation since it is my question rather than the heretic(s)' indecision/inattentiveness.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

16387

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 04:39:21

Post by: Manchu

End of Turn 2 Night Phase

Orkeosaurus has been wounded!

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

12478

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 04:59:11

Post by: Gornall

Hmm... either the traitors are bidding their time or we eliminated half of the threat yesterday. A-F... what results did you get from your probe?

I think today we are best off probably not shooting someone (why do the traitor's work for him), but instead focusing on sending out skulls. I think it might be best if I sent them all out. Worst case, the traitor kills me, but I will severly wound him before I die and you will be able to easily find him the next day.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

11693

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 05:01:07

Post by: Thor665

That suggests simply one heretic ((OOC - though I'll concede there *might* be two left - but it seems ballsy for them to continuously not be doing their maximum available number of wounds each Night Phase)) which certainly puts a further level of truth to Gornall's Secutor claim. I submit between that and the truth of Stynier's heretic-ness we have a confirmed Secutor and two confirmed Tech Priests and would like to see the laspistol stay in their hands.

Things are looking good - we only appear to have five suspicious people (and for us loyalists amongst those five we can parse it down to only four suspicious people). Seems like it ought to be pretty easy to root out the lone Heretic.

Reply by: Valhallan42nd - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 05:08:28

Post by: Valhallan42nd

Huh.

I'm glad I survived, but I'm confused by the traitor's tactics.

Not eliminating me or orkeosaurus doesn't change their odds of hiding.

I hope at this point most, if not all of you trust that Orkeo and I are both the Techpriests. That eliminates the two of us from the suspect list.

Thor665 (alive)
Orkeosaurus (alive, wounded)
Gornall (alive, wounded)
BrotherStynier (Dead, Traitorus Excommunicatus)
Valhallan42nd (alive, wounded)
Demogerg (alive)
Mekboy (alive)
Lord-Loss (alive)
Arctik-Firangi (alive)

If Gornall is the secutor as he claims, then that elminates him as a suspect.

If Thor665 is correct, then there may be more than one traitor still living.

Ah! that might be it! It could be that there are two traitors after all, and that they intentionally just wounded one person last night to throw us off the scent! If both Orkeo and I are dead next round, then that is probably what happened. I think that it a valueable line of inquiry to persue, as it is merely an extrapolation based off of possible forward tactics. Until it actually happens, it is merely an interesting thought experiment. If that turned out to be true, it would point to Gornall being a traitor. Why? Because of the first round wounds.

Two of three traitors wound each other and one wounds me. One claims to be a secutor and throws somone under the bus to gain our trust so that they can murder us and use their wound as a shield. They use that "shield" for the rest of the time here to push votes in the way they want to use us to kill everyone off.

I don't think this scenario likely at this point, to be honest, but it is a possibility to keep in mind.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 05:14:18

Post by: Thor665

It certainly stretches Ockham's Razor a bit. (and for the record I'm pretty much betting on a single heretic at this point)

With a single heretic - depending on Arctik's discovery - we'll only have four suspects. I submit the best method is to deploy three servo skulls and to shoot the odd man out. That pretty much guarantees either we tag the heretic with the pistol or catch him via servo skulls.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 05:15:46

Post by: Gornall

I'm don't know what more I can do to prove that I'm telling the truth. My "claim" to be the Secutor lead directly to us killing Stynier (I even pulled the trigger!). Had I been a traitor, I would have claimed to have been wounded by a heretic and both Stynier and I would have most likely survived.

I do think we should keep in mind that a third traitor may be lurking and simply slow-playing this, but I wouldn't count on it.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 05:18:40

Post by: Gornall

I say we don't shoot anyone. With only one traitor left, time is working in our favor. We tag three people with skulls, and if they all come back innocent, THEN we kill the fourth person.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 05:20:01

Post by: Thor665

Gornall wrote:I do think we should keep in mind that a third traitor may be lurking and simply slow-playing this, but I wouldn't count on it.

If you think there's a third traitor then isn't it awfully foolish to want to do all the servo skull deployments? Maybe we should use the confirmed loyalist tech priests to operate at least some of them. After all, if they are playing coy with a third member then it's well worth it for them to lose that member to get a Secutor and also stop all the remaining servo skulls in one fell swoop.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 05:26:55

Post by: Gornall

I don't know. I think the chances of their being two remaining traitor are very low. By giving me all the skulls, it forces them to sacrifice one of them to attack me. If we spread the skulls around, they can still kill up to two people anyway. It also allows them to play mind games based on who they kill versus who they let live.

However, since time is on our side, it might be better to send out one skull a day. As long as we don't shoot innocent people, they traitor(s) will have to move quickly to kill us all before help arrives.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 05:36:37

Post by: Thor665

That does not seem an unreasonable play. Though clearly we do have to wait to hear from Arctik before we get too excited about any plans - though I submit that since he's alive and well that speaks volumes for the likelihood of Demo not being a heretic.

Reply by: Valhallan42nd - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 05:44:28

Post by: Valhallan42nd

Gornall,

I do beleive you are the secutor, but we must prepare for all possibilities.

Hopefully, Arctik's report will eliminate further suspects.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 05:51:48

Post by: Gornall

Thor665 wrote:That does not seem an unreasonable play. Though clearly we do have to wait to hear from Arctik before we get too excited about any plans - though I submit that since he's alive and well that speaks volumes for the likelihood of Demo not being a heretic.

That or the traitor knew attacking him was fruitless unless he had help. But I agree, I doubt that Arctik's report will be anything other than "Demogerg is innocent." There is no reason for Arctik to say that Demogerg is guilty if he is not, and if they are both traitors, then Arctik could cover for him.

How do people want to deploy the remaining skulls?

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 06:00:01

Post by: Thor665

Arctik needs to be investigated just to verify him after he verifies Demo, which will help re-verify Demo. Between the rest of us (myself, Mekboy, and Lord-Loss) I'm not sure it really matters unless somebody has seen something that seems suspicious from one of us. In a vague sense since I know I'm innocent I'd say investigate the two of them. But ::shrugs:: as I said, it probably doesn't matter too much as if we get three innocent results it will be pretty obvious who is guilty.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 07:21:36

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

Unfortunately, Demogerg is innocent - a loyal crew member and nothing more. I do not see the point in wasting a further servo-skull on me, seeing as how I voted to shoot the traitorous carcass at our feet.

Therefore I would elect that servo skulls be deployed against Mekboy, Lord-Loss and Thor. I will not formalise this as a movement for the time being. Since I am unwounded I am in a better position to receive the data from one of the probes.

I am primarily suspicious of Thor. Upon the foundation that I know myself and Demogerg to be loyalists, I can only see his desire to investigate both of us a waste of resources. Our foe must be desperate indeed, and pulling off a deployment against Demogerg and I is his only chance to live beyond the morrow. By my count, there are either three or five remaining suspects - the three I have mentioned, or myself and Demogerg included if I am lying.

He speaks of his desire for the pistol to remain in the hands of those three reasonably assured to be loyal - but that goes without saying, and there is therefore a greater than 33% chance that it is an attempt to curry favour with them. He speaks much indeed, but I do not trust him as our strategist, and beg that the rest of you do not either.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[OOC: I do not believe we face a possessed, either, since one of our Techpriests would probably have been wiped out last night if that was the case. It would still be a good idea to split up the receivers for probe information just in case a possessed is biding his time, and I propose that the cantidates be Demogerg(unwounded), Gornall (will backlash any attempt to be rid of him) and myself. If a possessed wipes out myself or Demogerg, then the person they were investigating is probably the traitor. If Gornall is attacked, then the traitor will be blood-marked. If anyone can see any gaping holes in my logic, let it be known... and may I be struck down tomorrow if we have learned nothing.

The traitor really should have popped Gornall while he had the chance... He would not be able to claim that the wound on the traitor was his doing, and there would be confusion as to the possible existence of two more heretics (EDIT: Sorry, that wouldn't make sense at all. There would have to be three wounds around for Thor to claim that he was not a traitor, and that ruse would not last long with all of these probes at our disposal).

When I asked about how we were so sure of Orkeo and Valhallan's innocence, I was confused about the techpriest role (I had a lapse and thought techpriests were the basic loyalist role whilst reading over the previous few pages). ]

Strictly metagame, Mekboy hasn't posted since the 20th, and hence was probably not involved in the night phase. Lord-Loss also voted to shoot Stynier...


EDIT: Lots of edits, including an edit to mention this edit message.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 10:35:28

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

I propose the following voting pattern for the deployment of skulls.

Orkeo votes to deploy against Thor, Mekboy and Lord-Loss
Valhallan votes to deploy against Thor, Mekboy and Lord-Loss
Demogerg votes to deploy against Lord-Loss and Mekboy
Gornall votes to deploy against Mekboy and Thor (receives info on Mekboy)
I vote to deploy against Lord-Loss (receives info on Lord Loss)
Demogerg votes to deploy against Thor (receives info on Thor)

Alternatively, we shoot Thor now and crash this Titan into the nearest pub.

Reply by: Demogerg - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 12:41:10

Post by: Demogerg

Arctik has a very logical and precise strategy, I say we follow along with his voting pattern.

Reply by: Valhallan42nd - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 16:45:26

Post by: Valhallan42nd

I vote to deploy against Thor, Mekboy and Lord-Loss

Reply by: Valhallan42nd - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 16:46:34

Post by: Valhallan42nd

Obviously, I agree with Arctik.

Reply by: Mekboy - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 16:57:21

Post by: Mekboy

I agree with the votes. I'm innocent, but feel free to use a skull to prove it.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 17:16:03

Post by: Gornall

Two things really quick:

1. Remember that voting order matters.
2. I think we should take the time to make sure everyone is on board with this before we start voting.

From what I can tell, we have two possible scenarios facing us. Either we have 1 traitor left (most likely) or we have two out there.

Assuming one traitor, we know that Demogerg, myself, Valhallan, and Orkeo are all innocent. If we make this assumption, I say we have 3 of the four remaining suspects investigate each other in a round-robin fashion. That way if they all come back innocent, then we shoot the fourth person and call it a day.

Assuming two traitors, we only know that Valhallan, Orkeo, and myself are innocent. Arctik could be a traitor covering for Demogerg. Because of this, I would like to avoid have Arctik making another investigation. Overall, if we make this assumption (might be safer to prevent suprises), it makes the deployment of skulls much more complicated as an incorrect deployment could allow the traitors to lie for each other. If we assume that two remain alive, I honestly think it best that I deploy a skull each day. I will either survive and get back the results, or I will be killed and a traitor will be marked and the survivors will still have skulls to continue investigating.

I don't know if any of the already-wounded Tech Priests should be making investigations as they could be eliminated with no problem, even if only one traitor remains. If two remain, both could be eliminated casting severe doubt on who we should target next. I think our best course is to force the traitor(s) to keep attacking unwounded people to buy us more time. Remember, one of the benefits of having both Tech Priests alive is that it makes it harder for the traitors to take control of our actions and steer us down paths that aren't beneficial to our survival.

In any case, I would like to be able to personally deploy a skull against Thor. He talks quite a lot and makes good arguments, and I think it would be best for the group if we knew whether he was for or against us.

EDIT: Status Update (Skull Vote Counts) Please!

Reply by: Demogerg - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 17:33:32

Post by: Demogerg

I will place my skull-votes in as soon as orkeo casts his votes.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 17:59:09

Post by: Thor665

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Unfortunately, Demogerg is innocent - a loyal crew member and nothing more. I do not see the point in wasting a further servo-skull on me, seeing as how I voted to shoot the traitorous carcass at our feet.

Unfortunately?

Also - waste a further servo skull on you? We haven't had any servo skulls on you and we really ought to have at least one. If you think I am the most suspicious guy in the whole Titan simply because I wanted Gornall and the techpriests to hold onto the laspistol, fine. Go ahead and investigate me all you want, or if you can get the group to agree I suppose you can shoot me - as that will also prove my innocence though in a somewhat permanent manner. But I see absolutely zero logic in not investigating you nor do I understand why you want to claim such an investigation is a "waste." Simply because you got an innocent result on Demogerg proves nothing about you.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 18:09:51

Post by: Gornall

Thor665 wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Unfortunately, Demogerg is innocent - a loyal crew member and nothing more. I do not see the point in wasting a further servo-skull on me, seeing as how I voted to shoot the traitorous carcass at our feet.

Unfortunately?

Also - waste a further servo skull on you? We haven't had any servo skulls on you and we really ought to have at least one. If you think I am the most suspicious guy in the whole Titan simply because I wanted Gornall and the techpriests to hold onto the laspistol, fine. Go ahead and investigate me all you want, or if you can get the group to agree I suppose you can shoot me - as that will also prove my innocence though in a somewhat permanent manner. But I see absolutely zero logic in not investigating you nor do I understand why you want to claim such an investigation is a "waste." Simply because you got an innocent result on Demogerg proves nothing about you.

Unfortunately, as in had it come back as guilty, the traitor could be purged and we would be able to go back to serving the Emperor. I agree with Thor and think investigating AF is useful, as it not only eliminates him as a suspect, but it also clears Demogerg's name in the event of two traitors being on board still. I do NOT think that Arctik should be doing any more investigating, though. I am a bit curious as to why you are so animated Thor... it seems a bit out of character.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 18:14:06

Post by: Thor665

Animated in what way?

((OOC - I am often a prolific poster if that's what you mean. I also dislike poor logic and Arctik's 'you don't need to investigate me because I voted to shoot Stynier' argument is senseless and felt odd in how much he was claiming he didn't need to be investigated. If you meant some other type of animated you'll have to clue me in.))

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 18:19:33

Post by: Gornall

Thor665 wrote:Animated in what way?

((OOC - I am often a prolific poster if that's what you mean. I also dislike poor logic and Arctik's 'you don't need to investigate me because I voted to shoot Stynier' argument is senseless and felt odd in how much he was claiming he didn't need to be investigated. If you meant some other type of animated you'll have to clue me in.))

You seemed to take personal offense at Arctik's statements (which I agree are not the most logical) and were very harsh in your reply--much more so than I think the situation warrants. It's almost as you're being somewhat defensive about being investigated. (OOC:: You seemed to jump all over Arctik. Not that I'm arguing with you, just thought it was a change from your previous demenor (sp) in the thread.)

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 18:35:00

Post by: Thor665

I suppose I might have come off harsh - but allow me to clarify what I read and what I was responding to;

Artick claims it's 'unfortunate' about Demo not being a heretic (normally this might not have got my attention but in light of the rest of his commentary it piqued my interest which is why I called it out)

Arctik claims it's obvious that he doesn't need to be investigated and that it would be a "waste"

His support for this is that he voted to shoot Stynier ((OOC because there's *no* way a heretic would vote to shoot an exposed heretic I guess?))

He then says I am suspicious because I want to investigate him ((I do)) and because I want to investigate Demo again ((which I have never said and I don't know where he's getting that from - though this is probably his cue to point out how I used an incorrect word somewhere...[FYI this is a joke from Drk_O's game and has no deeper meaning beyond that]))

He also points out how I shouldn't be the strategist (though I'm not sure when I tried to be - all I did was offer the belief that he should be amongst those servo skulled) and then he offers up a plan of action because clearly he should be the strategist and includes not just who should be investigated but the entire breakdown of who votes where when and how.

Then Demo and Valhallan hop onboard with this as though it's the most logical thing that has ever been said when it's painfully apparent (to me at least) that it is highly illogical. I responded to point out how illogical it was - I didn't mean for it to be harsh or come across as having a different demeanor ((OOC - and in an online format inflection is certainly difficult to convey accurately)). What I wanted to make clear was a disagreement with his concept that he shouldn't be investigated and that it would be a "waste." I strongly disagree with the latter and disagree with the former.

Reply by: Lord-Loss - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 18:45:18

Post by: Lord-Loss

If there are two traitors then Valhallan and Orkeo could both be lying.

The real tech-priests could be too scared to come forward now that your all believing them.

So, we know Gornal Is a loyalist and that is it.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 18:49:58

Post by: Gornall

EDIT: This is in response to Thor.

That is fine. I also agree that I don't like the idea of non-confirmed people making up lists of who investigates who. It leads to too many possibilities for abuse. We either need to do a self-confirming method (round-robin) or have one of the "known" innocents (Tech Priests and myself) set the actual assignments. I think everyone should withdraw their votes for now so we don't send out any skulls accidently.

Personally, I think we should assume two traitors (just to be safe). Therefore, we investigate Arctik, Thor, and probably Mekboy. Investigating Arctik would not only show his innocence or guilt, but would also confirm or cast doubt on Demogerg's innocence. I think confirming Thor's innocence would also be helpful, as he seems to be very astute. This is an advantage for whichever side he is on, so eliminating him quickly if he is a traitor makes sense. The remaining two are simply a toss-up.

I would strongly argue that because we have a "confirmed" Secutor in myself, I should send out a probe of either Thor or Arctik today and save the remaining two for tomorrow. Either I eliminate someone as a suspect, I find a suspect with my investigation, or I get killed and mark a suspect.

However, if there are two traitors, one could attack me, while the other attacks one of the Tech Priests and kills them, leaving you with a choice between two people to shoot that day and only two skulls left, making it hard to cross-verify stories. At least you would know that two traitors are on board, though, eliminating one unknown from the equation.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 19:09:08

Post by: Thor665

Lord-Loss wrote:If there are two traitors then Valhallan and Orkeo could both be lying.

The real tech-priests could be too scared to come forward now that your all believing them.

You mean the real two tech priests? Since I presume you're not one (and I know I'm not) then Demo, Mekboy, and Arctik are the only possible techpriests. Arctik released a servo skull on Demo which suggests that he didn't already know Demo was innocent. That means the only possible techpriest combo that is not Orkeo and Valhallan would be Mekboy and Arctik. If for some insane reason they are the techpriests and have said nothing then they should come forward now so we can shoot the false techpriests. However, it seems fairly obvious that Orkeo and Valhallan are the techpriests.

Gornall wrote:However, if there are two traitors, one could attack me, while the other attacks one of the Tech Priests and kills them, leaving you with a choice between two people to shoot that day and only two skulls left, making it hard to cross-verify stories.

Well, if there are two heretics their smart play would be to kill you and wound someone else - that way they could try to pin the blame on the wounded innocent. Still, I submit that losing you for a confirmation that one of a two person pair is a heretic is not a totally unreasonable exchange. We all also seem to still be debating the wisdom of either a multiple servo skull release or a trickle of single skull releases. I think we need to brainstorm as to which is better for the loyalists.

I'll second that we should reset the skulls for the moment - then we can discuss out which pattern will serve us best and formulate a voting plan based on that pattern. I see our available options as follows and have included what I see as the pros and cons of each. I was originally a fan of Mass release (along with just shooting the odd man out) but at the moment Gorall has more or less talked me into the single release plan as it will be fairly slow but fairly accurate too. (slow and steady in the race and all that jazz.)

Mass release - we release all the skulls at once with the three confirmed loyalists (Orkeo, Valhallan, Gornall) helming them.
Advantage - guarantees skulls get through. Very quick.
Disadvantage - if two heretics are alive they could kill both techpriests very easily so that we only get one skull's worth of info.

Round Robin Release - Pick three people and have them each investigate each other in a circle pattern.
Advantage - Self verification provides info on everybody in the circle. Also if anyone is nightkilled it helps focus suspicion. Helps verify parties who might otherwise not trust someone to investigate them (for instance, I'd be more comfortable with Arctik investigating me if someone else was investigating him at the same time)
Disadvantage - With three skulls and four unconfirmed people we need to make sure the guilty party is in the circle.

Single Release - Gornall does the one skull shuffle every night.
Advantage - If Gornall dies we'll probably have an obvious traitor (unless there are two traitors)
Disadvantage - It will take a while and will provide the Heretics more time ((night phase = bad for loyalists))

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 19:19:50

Post by: Gornall

Yeah... I blobbed two ideas together on accident. Like you said, they would kill me and wound another, forcing you to chose between the the actual traitor and the person they wounded.

I'm against the mass release as it encourages the traitors to kill those of us who we know to be innocent, which not only prevents us from getting data from the skulls, but also doesn't reduce our options for suspects. Between the RRR and SR, I'm still not sure.

Has anyone done the math on what it would take for one or two traitors to kill us all before time runs out? How many wrong choices can we make for each?

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 19:22:13

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Here's a thought; what if we have Gornall release all of them?

Whoever kills Gornall will get wounded in turn, so if there's only one heretic left it makes him a marked man. The only problems I could see would be there being two traitors (in which case at least we've taken one out), or if Gornall is somehow a traitor (in which case the real Secutor needs to come out now).

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 19:26:56

Post by: Gornall

Orkeosaurus wrote:Here's a thought; what if we have Gornall release all of them?

Whoever kills Gornall will get wounded in turn, so if there's only one heretic left it makes him a marked man. The only problems I could see would be there being two traitors (in which case at least we've taken one out), or if Gornall is somehow a traitor (in which case the real Secutor needs to come out now).

The only problem with this is that if there are two, one kills me, one wounds an innocent, and then you all must choose between the two without any skulls remaining. Even if you choose correctly, you then have no way of knowing who the remaining traitor is. If you choose incorrectly, things become even more dire.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 19:32:52

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Hmm. True. Maybe the mass release suggested by Thor is the best route.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 19:33:06

Post by: Thor665

I'm against any mass release with only one person getting all the info - it's just too obvious and simple of a target for the heretics.

((Edit - this is to Orkeo's post prior to his last one. I think mass release as outlined in my listing of release types post is a functional option - though maybe not the best one))

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 19:35:59

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Well alright. In that case, let's have Gornall do whatever the most important investigation is (which would probably be investigating whoever used a servo skull, thus potentially revealing two things to be true).

Reply by: Demogerg - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 20:10:47

Post by: Demogerg

Alright, I think I worked it out.

I didnt catch the hole in the logic of AF, and im glad i have not yet voted, but here is my plan for the votes,

Thor votes for Mek, LL, and AF
Demo votes for Mek, LL, and AF
Mek votes for Mek, LL, and AF
LL votes for Mek, LL, and AF
Orkeo votes for Mek
Gornall votes for AF
Valhallan votes for LL

this leaves our only 3 "confirmed" innocents to have the results, and the results of Gornalls investigation would also clear my name, because AF has those results.

Reply by: Demogerg - click to view full reply 

12030

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 20:14:22

Post by: Demogerg

If no one pulls up any heretics, we shoot thor, and end it right there.

If we find our heretic, we kill him, and if the game keeps going, shoot me and thor.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 20:19:18

Post by: Gornall

The problem with that is it allows the traitors to night kill our Tech Priests no matter what, meaning we only get one skull back and gain no other information on who is innocent (as they're taking out people who we already know to be innocent, rather than ones we are unsure about.)

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 20:31:00

Post by: Thor665

Demogerg wrote:If no one pulls up any heretics, we shoot thor, and end it right there.

If we find our heretic, we kill him, and if the game keeps going, shoot me and thor.

Why does your plan have so much Thor shooting?

Seriously though - I agree with Gornall's concern. The biggest flaw in your voting plot is that the heretics will no doubt target the techpriests. If there's only one heretic we lose out on a skull, which is annoying but not total doom and gloom. But if the heretics were playing it coy with their numbers and there's two of them we could end up losing two skull investigations and two techpriests all in one fell swoop. The question in that case starts to become how likely we feel it is there are two heretics still left?

I don't think it's too likely since they do have to hurry up and kill us all in order to make off with the Titan ((OOC - and it would mean that for two night phases in a row they didn't use their full allotment of wounds to inflict)). Which is why I originally proposed the mass release plan. The thing is Gornall raised a fair point - we can't be certain, and if there are two a mass release with techpriests operating servo skulls could hurt our chances pretty badly.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 20:40:34

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

I will re-state that I and Demogerg are loyal, and hence the only way my suggested deployment would fail to bring up information on the guilty is if Valhallan or Orkeo have been lying, which seems extremely unlikely.

In the unlikely event that what I have suggested fails, it will be a relatively simple procedure to root out the traitor/s. The only reason I do not suggest another of our unwounded brethren to be the probe recipient is that I personally have no assurance of their innocence. That said, the alternative is to leave one of my three accused out and add me to the investigation (I would suggest Mekboy, or one of our Tech Priests as the recipient in that case). Not that I am suggesting that I am a techpriest, though (in relation to Thor's suggestion that Mekboy and I are logically the only other cantidates to be Tech Priests). Because I am not.

{OOC: Thor, for some reason I thought you wanted to investigate me, and then Demogerg again, which would obviously be pointless, but was also obviously a misread on my part.

Plenty of points still to make, but going to court in half an hour... wish me luck lads!}

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 20:43:36

Post by: Gornall

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I will re-state that I and Demogerg are loyal, and hence the only way my suggested deployment would fail to bring up information on the guilty is if Valhallan or Orkeo have been lying, which seems extremely unlikely.

In the unlikely event that what I have suggested fails, it will be a relatively simple procedure to root out the traitor/s. The only reason I do not suggest another of our unwounded brethren to be the probe recipient is that I personally have no assurance of their innocence. That said, the alternative is to leave one of my three accused out (I would suggest Mekboy) and add me to the investigation. Not that I am suggesting that I am a techpriest, though. Because I am not.

{OOC: Thor, for some reason I thought you wanted to investigate me, and then Demogerg again, which would obviously be pointless, but was also obviously a misread on my part.

Plenty of arguments still to make, but going to court in half an hour... wish me luck lads!}

I would most certainly want you investigated. Not so much because I suspect you, but because it reduces uncertainity more than one of the other suspects. We would not only find out that you are guilty/innocent, but could also confirm or cast doubt on Demogerg's innocence at the same time.

Reply by: Lord-Loss - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 21:34:11

Post by: Lord-Loss

I like Demogerg's plan, it has flaws but but if one of the tech-priest die and he was investigating me, then I would be then a likely suspect etc.

Reply by: Demogerg - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 21:55:55

Post by: Demogerg

If we have 2 more heretics, then at best they would kill val and wound someone else, or kill orkeo.

they cant feasably kill gornall,
and we need to act fast in order to get all the votes in time.

if we only have 1 more heretic, this will weed him out.

Known innocents: Gornall, Valhallan, Orkeo
Most likely innocent: Demogerg
Suspects: Thor, Lord-Loss, Mekboy, Arctik_Firangi

we can investigate 3 of the suspects with the 3 currently living innocents, if we wait then more innocents will die, and it will be harder to guarentee ANY results.

Reply by: Manchu - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 22:02:26

Post by: Manchu

Status Update

Lord Loss votes to deploy against Valhallan.

Okeo and Valhallan vote to deploy against Thor.

Orkeo and Valhallan vote to deploy against Mekboy.

Orkeo and Valhallan vote to deploy against Lord Loss.

Gornall, Orkeosaurus, and Valhallan are wounded.

Stynier, the heretic, is dead.

Gornall controls the laspistol and may shoot.

Reply by: Demogerg - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 22:07:06

Post by: Demogerg

Manchu wrote:Status Update

Lord Loss votes to deploy against Valhallan.

Okeo and Valhallan vote to deploy against Thor.

Orkeo and Valhallan vote to deploy against Mekboy.

Orkeo and Valhallan vote to deploy against Lord Loss.

Gornall, Orkeosaurus, and Valhallan are wounded.

Stynier, the heretic, is dead.

Gornall controls the laspistol and may shoot.

Oh, my mistake, i didnt realize Orkeo was ALSO wounded.....

crap.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 22:13:13

Post by: Gornall

I still think that's a bad plan. If there are two heretics, we go from an almost certain win to an almost certain loss, as we allow them to not only cripple our skull information, but we also lose two of the people who we know are innocent. We want to force them to night kill people who we DON'T know where their loyalties are, thus reducing the number of suspects.

Reply by: Lord-Loss - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 22:18:59

Post by: Lord-Loss

For now, let us all undeploy are skulls.

Take back skull vote

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 22:21:06

Post by: Thor665

The thing is - if there are still two heretics we aren't really that close to an almost certain win at this point in any case.

I take it you're advocating the single investigation method? If this is so and we have two heretics it's quite functional for them to wait till you finally target one with a servo skull - use that person to kill you, and they'll still be looking pretty good for the win. Round robin offers similar problems if two of them are in the chain.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 22:55:53

Post by: Gornall

I keep trying to determine how dire our situation is, but I'm having the hardest time figuring out what would happen based on our actions today. How many wounds do they have to inflict to force a win?

Another option is to simply do nothing and see if they keep slow-rolling it. What are the ramifications of waiting another day?

Another question is whether a pistol shot (think instant skull feedback) give us a better chance? Assuming 2 traitors, we have a 2/5 chance (can't assume that Demogerg is innocent) of outright killing a traitor. Do we combine that with skulls?

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 23:19:04

Post by: Gornall

Think through this scenario (just bouncing around ideas):

We plan to shoot Arctik (sorry!). Worst case, he's innocent, so we find out Demogerg is also innocent. Before we shoot, I investigate Thor who investigates Mekboy who investigates Lord Loss. At this point five possibilities emerge:

1. Only one traitor (so either I survive and we figure out who the traitor is or I die and he's marked)
2. Thor and Mekboy are traitors (they have to kill me and wound Lord Loss: or Thor will be exposed)
3. Thor and Lord Loss are traitors (they have to kill me and wound Mekboy: or Thor will be exposed)
4. Mekboy and Lord Loss are traitors (They have to kill me and wound Thor: or Mekboy will be exposed)

The beauty of this is you just shoot THE UNWOUNDED ONE.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/23 23:24:38

Post by: Gornall

Unless they self-wound... /cry.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 00:01:35

Post by: Gornall

What happens if I investigate Thor, Orkeo investigates Lord-Loss, and Valhallan investigates Mekboy and we shoot Arctik (sorry again!)?

Once again we find out whether AF/Demogerg are innocent and we get one result back to a trusted party. If both it and Arctik were innocent, we blast the other two.

Hmm... that might just work!

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 00:17:05

Post by: Orkeosaurus

That's actually not a bad idea.

...

...

Do you believe in the Omnissiah, Arctik?

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 00:55:55

Post by: Thor665

I have been supporting the concept of shooting someone as I do think it could help increase our odds considering how we only have three servo skulls.

((OOC since I discuss a lot of game concepts and am too lazy to edit them into role-speak - Let's try to poke any holes into Gornall's plan.

Gornall investigates me
Orkeo investigates Lord-Loss
Valhallan investigates Mekboy
We shoot Arctik which will either clear or damn Demogerg.

If we presume two traitors their optimal play will probably be to drop a wound each onto the tech priests to deny that information. Since I know I'm innocent that means the only potential scum are Arctik, Demo, Mekboy, and Lord-Loss.

The only way Demo can be a heretic is if Arctik is as well - so in that case we'll only have one scum left - win for us.

If Lord-Loss and Mekboy are both traitors they can kill the techpriests and we are left with loyal me, Demo, and Gornall vs. 2 Heretics. We'll need to have quick trigger fingers but...

Okay, potential wost case is I suppose they just kill Gornall and the tech priest investigating whomever doesn't wound Gornall. That will leave me as an unknown factor. We shoot the obvious heretic (who will probably be hopping for the dropped lasgun to try to shoot us first) and in night phase they kill the other tech priest. That will leave us with Demo and 2 unknowns for him - we'll have to give Demo the gun and he'll have to shoot one of us as otherwise they'll just slowly stab him to death and achieve victory.

So with two heretics it looks like we're looking at a rough 50/50 chance of a win with your proposed plan if Arctik is not a traitor. Though I do think that Arctik seems the most obvious potential traitor I'd like to think there's a better option then a 50/50 if he's not.))

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 01:37:48

Post by: Gornall

Yeah... considering we offed a traitor on the second day, I would hope we have a better than 50% chance at this point. (I think losing the first day hurt a lot, though).

The more I think through this, I don't know if shooting (especially someone who is unwounded) helps or hurts us. It seems to shorten the time frame quite a bit.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 01:46:53

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

I invite my own death if we can come up with a strong contingency plan. For that reason, I still propose that we put out at least two skulls first. My death will clear Demogerg, and if we investigate Thor and Lord-Loss we will have a solid idea of what is going on...
The problem with waiting is that Demogerg will probably get stabbed tonight (both he, I and the traitor/s know he is innocent), and hence he will be useless as a future probe recipient. I am stumped as to who should receive the second probe (obviously Gornall is one), since I need to be shot or probed myself in order to prove Demogerg's innocence. There is no one else unwounded that I can trust, but from my point of view it is vital that he receive the second probe. Shoot me, and if I am lying then Demogerg is also a traitor.

I doubt that the traitor will have self-wounded, as he'll need to finish off Gornall eventually. If he has, we've as good as won a moral victory.

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 01:50:47

Post by: Orkeosaurus

Demogerg? Die tonight?

No way. Me and Valhallan are both wounded, and known to be loyal by everyone.

Gornall is protected by his Secular training, at least.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 02:21:55

Post by: Thor665

Arctik_Firangi wrote:The problem with waiting is that Demogerg will probably get stabbed tonight (both he, I and the traitor/s know he is innocent), and hence he will be useless as a future probe recipient.

Demogerg may get stabbed tonight - but certainly the tech priests are equally (and perhaps more so) at risk. After all, everyone knows they're innocent.

((OOC - Edit:This is what I get for leaving browser windows open for a long time while composing replies.Let's just make this "what Orkeo said" and be done with it.))

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 02:31:04

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

What I mean is that the traitor/s know that Demogerg is loyal, and hence if he does not deploy today he will probably be stabbed, making him a less useful recipient in future. The problem with single-wound investigators is that the traitor/s could finish them off regardless of whether or not they are the target. If we were to deploy a single probe, the recipient may die, but a clever traitor would want to finish off whomever is getting that information to cast about confusion. Orkeo and Valhallan are most vital in securing the Laspistol, but are severely limited by their wound.

Say I'm innocent, and Orkeosaurus investigated me. The real traitor would probably knock off Orkeo and make me look very sinister indeed. Hence Gornall is the only useful investigator on one wound, as he will at least bloody the hands of anyone who tried to interfere, and make it nigh on impossible for the traitor to win.

If Demogerg deploys today, the result of my death will tell you if what he reports is to be trusted. However, if I am shot and Demogerg does not deploy, he is proven innocent for nothing.

Again, I state that I am willing to sacrifice myself for this order of events... Gornall deploys against Thor, and Demogerg deploys against Lord-Loss. I'd rather be shot than have a probe wasted on me, since the only thing a probe will tell you is that I'm innocent, which will get us nowhere.

As long as my death proves Demo's innocence, the unlikely dual-traitor situation can only be effective if they both stab Demogerg and get rid of him. Gornall's probe will still go off, and if he does not hit a traitor with the probe, then Mekboy and Lord-Loss can be shot down, assisted by Orkeo and Valhallan.

[OOC, the only issue I can see is if we face a possessed, who can take Demo out in a single hit if he needs to - then the existence of two traitors could get a little messier. Regardless, in a single-possessed situation, he would not be able to attack the following turn if he insta-killed someone, allowing us to get the last probe out unharassed.]

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 05:48:32

Post by: Gornall

OOC:: I've given up trying to stay in character.

I've looked at this from a lot of different angles and I'm at a loss of what to do. Let's keep bouncing around ideas.

The biggest problem I'm having is that if we do land a probe on one, that one will simply take me out since his days will be numbered.

I'm almost to the point of thinking there being 2 traitors is not likely. We got as lucky as we could have on night one with them attacking not only a Secutor but a Tech Priest, and we're still struggling with an endgame. Just imagine had that not happened.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 06:18:57

Post by: Thor665

I'm not sure I totally disagree with Arctik's plot of wanting to use someone who's healthy ((two wounds) to operate a probe ((and we've got to stop calling them probes, as I'm far too insecure in my manliness to have to continually discuss which of you should or should not be probing me))

In any case, though I agree with his concept of servo skull-ing with healthy operators, I fail to see logic in deploying only two servo skulls. If two is better then one, then 3 is probably better yet - and if three isn't a good idea then perhaps we should stick to one.

Also, a random thought - why did the heretic(s) only stab Orkeo when they knew Arctik was servo skull-ing Demo?

Is it because they really wanted to fool us into thinking there''s only one of them? Okay...though I'm not sure of the end game for that plan. Maybe trying to make us too confident so when the start mass stabbing people it's more shocking?

Now, if there's just one of them maybe he doesn't have enough oomph to even kill anyone in one go - in which case he decided to try and weaken up a techpriest as opposed to wasting time stabbing Arctik.

Finally, it is possible that Arctik himself is either the heretic, or is being set up by the heretic(s) to appear as the heretic. I'm just not sure why they'd want to let us get a confirmed (more or less) innocent in Demogerg, as that would seem to be strategically not advantageous to them.

I'd love to hear some more thoughts on this. Is there a way to use this evidence to confirm the possibility of only one heretic? What evidence do we have that this might or might not be a setup to frame Arctik? What evidence do we have that this might or might not be Arctik as a heretic hoping to control a skull release?

I also spent some time going over the data logs to see if I could discern any information from Stynier's actions. Unfortunately he was fairly quiet on the whole and really left no discernible clues about anyone. The most he seemed to do was question Demo for the pistol grab and Orkeo for wanting to reveal the techpriests. He never really interacted with anyone else until right before he was shot.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 06:44:54

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

What in hell sort of 'set up' or 'frame' would involve ME asking to be SHOT?

What exactly was wrong with my previous method?


1) Demogerg and Gornall send skulls after Thor and Lord-Loss/Mekboy (only because I'm suspicious of you, Thor).

2) Shoot me.

3) See that I am loyalist (and hence that Demogerg is also), Demogerg and/or Gornall will feedback with results that can be trusted.
3a) If Demogerg is killed by two heretics (unlikely) or one possessed, the traitors will be evident.
Result: Gornall and the tech priests will live to control the pistol and kill the traitor/s. If necessary, Gornall can send out the final servo-skull.

3b) If Gornall is killed by a traitor, that traitor will be bloodied and easily identifiable.
Result: Demogerg and the and the tech priests will live to control the pistol and kill the traitor/s. If necessary, Demogerg can send out the final servo-skull.

3c) Two heretics wound Gornall (killing) and Demogerg. Result: One traitor will be bloodied and shot, and the other will be deducted from Demogerg's probe result.

3d) Two heretics, one kills Gornall, and the other (a possessed) kills Demogerg in one hit.
Result: Absolute worst case scenario, and unlikely... but perfect justification for giving the third probe to one of the wounded tech-priests?

We seem to win either way, and I'd like to see someone come up with a way we can't.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 07:00:35

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

If Demogerg is killed tonight, we will not know if it was one or two heretics until after the following night. However, Gornall's skull will bring someone up as eithre guilty or innocent.

If A is innocent, then either B and/or C are definitely traitors. Gornall investigates B or C, and we shoot the other regardless.

If A is guilty, then Gornall deploys again (at B or C), and we kill A. Either credits roll, or another wound happens in the night and we deduct the guilty party from Gornall's result.

Reply by: Demogerg - click to view full reply 

12030

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 13:17:50

Post by: Demogerg

whatever we decide to do, we need to do it fast at this point.

Lord Loss, Mekboy, and Thor each have 2 votes for skulls on them, so we need the 3rd and 4th votes on them for us to investigate.

Reply by: Lord-Loss - click to view full reply 

18471

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 15:57:02

Post by: Lord-Loss

I like Gornal's plan, it seems we're defintely going to catch a heritic today with that plan, or atleast closer to the trust.


EDIT: I missed the last page lol.

I now like Artik's plan.

I vote to deploy against myself, thor and Mekboy, right?

Deploy Skull on Lord-Loss, Thor665 and Mekboy

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

11693

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 16:10:56

Post by: Thor665

Arctik_Firangi wrote:What in hell sort of 'set up' or 'frame' would involve ME asking to be SHOT?

One could argue that as a heretic you would suggest you be shot in order to "prove" your innocence. I still think your earlier discussion of it being a waste to have a servo skull put on you is telling, as is your attempt to rush through your plan for servo skull release. It was only after I pointed out the logical flaws in the plan that you threw out your "well then you can shoot me" plan. Does this make it absolute proof you're a traitor? No, it doesn't. But does you asking to be shot mean we shouldn't even have the discussion? No, it proves absolutely nothing more then that you asked to be shot. You could still be a heretic asking to be shot, though I will admit you might be a loyalist asking not to be servo skulled too.

Do you disagree totally that either is a possibility, and if so why?

What exactly was wrong with my previous method?

I simply noted that I disagreed with the two skull release. If your two skull method is good why not have a tech priest operate another servo skull as well? I thought I made that clear, I'm sorry if I didn't.

3) See that I am loyalist (and hence that Demogerg is also), Demogerg and/or Gornall will feedback with results that can be trusted.[/b]
3a) If Demogerg is killed by two heretics (unlikely) or one possessed, the traitors will be evident.
Result: Gornall and the tech priests will live to control the pistol and kill the traitor/s. If necessary, Gornall can send out the final servo-skull.

3b) If Gornall is killed by a traitor, that traitor will be bloodied and easily identifiable.
Result: Demogerg and the and the tech priests will live to control the pistol and kill the traitor/s. If necessary, Demogerg can send out the final servo-skull.

3c) Two heretics wound Gornall (killing) and Demogerg. Result: One traitor will be bloodied and shot, and the other will be deducted from Demogerg's probe result.

3d) Two heretics, one kills Gornall, and the other (a possessed) kills Demogerg in one hit.
Result: Absolute worst case scenario, and unlikely... but perfect justification for giving the third probe to one of the wounded tech-priests?

We seem to win either way, and I'd like to see someone come up with a way we can't.

Your plan doesn't particularly offer any more or less clarity then Gornall's plan.

3a) A bad move by the heretics as it would totally ignore the other skull. WIth two heretics they will kill Gornall as one of their options. An irrelevant discussion.
3b) You act as though the marking of one traitor equates to automatic discovery of the other traitor. You are incorrect on that - why would you want us to believe this?
3c) If there are two traitors and no possessed they will not drop a random wound on Demo - they will kill a techpriest and Gornall to remove two loyalists.
3d) This is worst case but not overly worse then with two regular heretics.

Take for example Demo investigates Mekboy or Lord Loss and Gornall investigates me. I'm innocent but nobody but me knows this for sure, Mekboy and Lord-Loss are traitors together. They night kill Gornall, marking themselves, they do this with whichever heretic Demo is investigating. The other kills a techpriest. Now we still have two unknown people (myself and either Mekboy or Lord Loss). We shoot the obvious heretic. In the night the remaining heretic kills the last tech priest leaving us on the day after that with Demo holding the gun and two unknown parties in front of him. 50/50. I will admit as I type this up I suddenly see a potential advantage in not deploying both servo skulls at once - as long as the surviving heretic isn't possessed Demo can release a servo skull to investigate one of the unknowns. However if the survivor is possessed then they could have killed Demo up front and put us in the same situation anyway - so I'm not sure I see the difference.

The only way we seem to have better then a 50/50 chance is if there is only one heretic left.

Demogerg wrote:Lord Loss, Mekboy, and Thor each have 2 votes for skulls on them, so we need the 3rd and 4th votes on them for us to investigate.

I'm perfectly happy voting for those if we're shooting Arctik. I'm not happy voting for those if we're not shooting him, as then I think we should servo skull him instead of someone else. We have to verify him in some manner in order to verify you.

((OOC - I'm heading out to work in a few, I'd appreciate it if someone could contemplate potential heretic strategies in a round robin servo skull deployment. If it hasn't been done when I get back I'll do it. That might be a better strategy then the 50/50 we've been dancing around so we ought to try a breakdown to see.))

Reply by: Lord-Loss - click to view full reply 

18471

Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 16:19:40

Post by: Lord-Loss

I agree with thor on this.

Shoot Arctik, release skulls, kill heretics.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 18:17:47

Post by: Gornall

Please stop voting to deploy skulls until we have a finalized plan.

Thor brought up some of the problems I also saw with Arctik's plan.

I don't have time to go into detail now, but I think I stepped through an idea yesterday that might get us 2/3 a chance at worst case. I'll look over my notes after work and get back with you all.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 19:40:06

Post by: Thor665

Good to hear Gornall.

I'll second the call that we really need to finalize a plan before we swoop off and vote on skulls as who is deploying what skull and on whom can make a very big difference for our success rate.

As promised here is some consideration on the round robin release.

4 unknowns and 3 people.

Arctik and I seem to be the ones under the most suspicion (and generally speaking it's because we each suspect the other) Arctik also has to be investigated or shot because that will verify or indemnify Demo. I should probably also be investigated since both Gornall and Arctik have expressed a desire for that, and at the very least Gornall isn't a heretic and thus removing me from suspicion would help by removing a wild card. With round robin we have A, B, C, and D who are unknowns. (Arctik, Mekboy, Lord-Loss, and myself. I'm leaving names off as we can probably set up the order in any way we wish and hopefully have similar results)

Worst case is two of A, B, C, and D are heretics.

With a round robin setup we can have A investigate B who investigates C. D is uninvestigated or shot.

D will either be or not be a heretic (50% or 25% chance depending on if there are two heretics or not). Which means if D is not shot then D is probably a high priority to shoot soon thereafter. I would submit we should shoot D simply because this will cut down on our wild cards.

Potential best case for the heretics is not to be D (who will be shot or soon shot) but to be two people in the chain. However, if they are two people in the chain they have to kill the loyalist which means their best ability to kill confirmed loyalists is only killing one of them (this presumes they have a Possessed) - by this means we force them to do what is most advantageous to us - kill people we are uncertain about. Since they have to kill the loyalist in the chain we can know at the very least whoever was about to be investigated is a heretic and depending on what D was will know about the other living person as well.

So to break it down;
ABC investigate each other D is shot.
Night kills will *have* to kill at least one person in chain (let's say C, if they have Possessed they can also kill one techpriest, let's say Orkeo, because I like to pick on him)
That leaves us A and B - who will either both be heretics or of whom one will be a heretic.
We shoot B and win or confirm A is heretic.
Night kills other techpriest.
We shoot A, we win.

Anyone see any holes in the logic?

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 20:19:50

Post by: Gornall

Why do they have to kill a person in the chain? Couldn't they just lie about the results and knock off two Tech Priests?

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 20:42:51

Post by: Thor665

Let's see...

A B and C are in chain. A and B are heretics. C is loyal.
A investigates B who investigates C who investigates A

A and B night kill both techpriests. Leaving us loyal Demo, loyal Gornall and the three investigated.

C as a loyalist will announce that A is a heretic.
B has to disprove that C can be trusted and will announce C as heretic.
A will have to prove B can be trusted and will announce B as a loyalist.

We have to shoot either A or C.

Worst case we shoot C and now know A and B are traitors. They night kill Demo and heretics win.

However, with two wounds being inflicted we will know for a fact that we have two heretics and that consequently two people in the chain are misrepresenting the truth. Thus we will know that any person announcing a loyalist result is a traitor and can shoot them and will know that it is likely whoever they announced as loyalist is traitor as well. End result is we win.

If all three announce heretic we will know for a fact that 2 of them are lying (well, rather one heretic is lying and one is telling the truth but is a heretic). In that case we have to shoot one of them randomly with a 2/3 chance of finding a heretic.

Remaining heretic will wound Demo.

We will then have 50/50 of shooting heretic...which is about the same as most of the other strategies.

Okay, I tap out. This method also tends to result in 50/50 for our win. Here's hoping whatever method you came upon works better.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 20:44:47

Post by: Thor665

I will note the round robin does work out better if Arctik is indeed a heretic - which isn't a possibility we should rule out. With only one heretic in the round robin chain we can find him within two shots every time.

Reply by: Demogerg - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 20:48:47

Post by: Demogerg

Gornall wrote:Why do they have to kill a person in the chain? Couldn't they just lie about the results and knock off two Tech Priests?

Exactly, if there are 2 heretics, and we shoot an innocent, then both heretics lie and say that all 3 are heretics, they kill both techpriests, sew confusion, and have a higher chance at winning.

At this point we are running out of time. Thor, we wont get a 100% win situation here, there will be variables, so lets get the skulls out, and figure this out before we lose another day and potentially both priests with NO information gained.

Reply by: Lord-Loss - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 20:52:51

Post by: Lord-Loss

So we all agreed on shooting Arctik (sorry!).

We all agree on a mass skull release today?

But, we havn't decided on the skull release method.

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 20:59:11

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

Thor665 wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:What in hell sort of 'set up' or 'frame' would involve ME asking to be SHOT?

One could argue that as a heretic you would suggest you be shot in order to "prove" your innocence. I still think your earlier discussion of it being a waste to have a servo skull put on you is telling, as is your attempt to rush through your plan for servo skull release. It was only after I pointed out the logical flaws in the plan that you threw out your "well then you can shoot me" plan. Does this make it absolute proof you're a traitor? No, it doesn't. But does you asking to be shot mean we shouldn't even have the discussion? No, it proves absolutely nothing more then that you asked to be shot. You could still be a heretic asking to be shot, though I will admit you might be a loyalist asking not to be servo skulled too.

Do you disagree totally that either is a possibility, and if so why?

In that case it's not a set up, is it? It was not after you pointed out flaws in my earlier plan that I said, 'well then you can shoot me.' I genuinely had not considered the option of shooting me instead of investigating me with a probe. It seems to be a very good idea for several reasons which I have outlined, and yet you seem to shrug off the total concept of my ideas without addressing the actual points I make. You say a lot without really saying anything at all.

I am not asking or suggesting in order to make me appear innocent - I stand here, insisting that I be shot, but obviously that must follow a solid deployment plan. Triple skulls are possibly a better idea than two.

All I ask is that people work around the idea of me being shot and try to come up with scenarios in addition to the ones I have. Your insistence on my not being shot seems suspicious too - obviously I know I am loyal, so your desire to keep me around and 'investigate' me would only benefit you if you are a traitor sowing discord.

If you would prefer, talk about scenarios in which I am shot and turn out to be the traitor.

[OOC: That's what I'll be doing when I get back from work]

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 21:12:42

Post by: Gornall

Thor665 wrote:Let's see...

A B and C are in chain. A and B are heretics. C is loyal.
A investigates B who investigates C who investigates A

A and B night kill both techpriests. Leaving us loyal Demo, loyal Gornall and the three investigated.

C as a loyalist will announce that A is a heretic.
B has to disprove that C can be trusted and will announce C as heretic.
A will have to prove B can be trusted and will announce B as a loyalist.

We have to shoot either A or C.

Worst case we shoot C and now know A and B are traitors. They night kill Demo and heretics win.

However, with two wounds being inflicted we will know for a fact that we have two heretics and that consequently two people in the chain are misrepresenting the truth. Thus we will know that any person announcing a loyalist result is a traitor and can shoot them and will know that it is likely whoever they announced as loyalist is traitor as well. End result is we win.

If all three announce heretic we will know for a fact that 2 of them are lying (well, rather one heretic is lying and one is telling the truth but is a heretic). In that case we have to shoot one of them randomly with a 2/3 chance of finding a heretic.

Remaining heretic will wound Demo.

We will then have 50/50 of shooting heretic...which is about the same as most of the other strategies.

Okay, I tap out. This method also tends to result in 50/50 for our win. Here's hoping whatever method you came upon works better.

I think that's pretty close to what I came up with. One problem is that if there is a possessed and we don't get him, he insta-kills Demogerg and it's GG. If there is only one heretic remaining, does this hurt our chances? I wouldn't think so, as unless he's a possessed, we get all of the results back. If he is, he can kill one of the innocents, but then we have a 50/50 with time to kill, correct? Actually, the more I think about it, I don't think this way is the best, as we not only have to do 2/3 choice, but we also have to do a 50/50, with either one failing leading to our deaths. (Is that a reasonable interpretation?)

Also, don't we have like another 24+ hours?

Reply by: Orkeosaurus - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 21:13:20

Post by: Orkeosaurus

What if all we do is have Gornall investigate Arctik tonight?

Then either he is killed or he can reveal whether Arctik and Demogerg are loyal. If he is killed there sill be one wound inflicted on him, one wound inflicted on his killer, and possibly one more wound inflicted by a second heretic.

That second heretic could wound an innocent, wound himself, or kill someone who is already wounded,

If he wounds himself, we will have [Gornall][Heretic][Heretic]. If he wounds an innocent we will have [Gornall][Heretic][Innocent]. If he kills a wounded we will have [Gornall][Name of Dead Person][Heretic].

We will know if the last happened, because the dead man's role will be revealed (and I think it's just the Techpriests who could be killed in this manner anyways).

That means either the former or the later will have happened. The former would result in either of the wounded men being good lynches. The later would result in a 50/50 shot of lynching a heretic.

If the heretics do not kill Gornall, he can tell us the loyalty of Arctik and Demogerg, obviously.

Also, it should be mentioned, if Demogerg or Arctik is wounded that night (and Gornall killed), we should kill him. If he was the traitor, his partner must be the traitor. If he is innocent, the other wounded person must have been the traitor.

I think perhaps it would be unwise to shoot Arctik today.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/24 22:39:43

Post by: Gornall

What happens if we shoot someone besides Arctik and Demogerg and finish the round-robin loop they started?

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/25 00:42:28

Post by: Thor665

Arctik_Firangi wrote:yet you seem to shrug off the total concept of my ideas without addressing the actual points I make. You say a lot without really saying anything at all.

That is unfair and a misrepresentation. I said I liked your idea but disagreed with the two skull release as opposed to a one or three skull release. ((OOC - my second post on page 10 - specifically discussing your plan and my issues with it))

I am not asking or suggesting in order to make me appear innocent - I stand here, insisting that I be shot, but obviously that must follow a solid deployment plan.

Obviously, which is why I've been working on discussing pros and cons of various plans. Maybe instead of complaining that I'm not giving your plan enough attention you could try and help build up or shoot down some of the plans that are being discussed.

Triple skulls are possibly a better idea than two.

...yes, I agree. And have said so multiple times before...when discussing your plan which you say I have not done.

Your insistence on my not being shot seems suspicious too - obviously I know I am loyal, so your desire to keep me around and 'investigate' me would only benefit you if you are a traitor sowing discord.

I have insisted that you are either shot or investigated. I will admit in the early stages I was saying investigated, but once the shooting of you as an option began to be discussed I have included it in all my discussion of various servo-skull release plans as has pretty much everyone else. ((OOC - check out the bottom of page 9 or pretty much every post on page 10. This feels strange that I have to point out how content I am with you being shot because I legitimately feel you're the most likely heretic amongst the unknowns.))

If you would prefer, talk about scenarios in which I am shot and turn out to be the traitor.

I have talked about them and shall continue to do so in addition to ones where you come up as innocent. Either option is a possibility to be planned for. Usually options with you as a traitor are shorter because they lead to our victory sooner and don't have to be expounded on ((OOC - since ones where you flip innocent have more Night and Day Phases)). But I do believe I've included discussion of you as both heretic and non-heretic and almost always being shot.

Orkeosaurus wrote:What if all we do is have Gornall investigate Arctik tonight?

Then either he is killed or he can reveal whether Arctik and Demogerg are loyal. If he is killed there sill be one wound inflicted on him, one wound inflicted on his killer, and possibly one more wound inflicted by a second heretic.

This works pretty well unless you accept there's a possibility that Arctik himself is a heretic - whereupon they can have Arctik kill Gornall and the other heretic kill someone else (tech priest). At this point Demogerg's loyalty becomes potentially a question as well.
We then shoot Arctik, remaining heretic kills other tech priest. We will have to probably release servo skulls in a round robin at this point and it can take up to two kills with a laspistol to verify a round robin with one heretic amongst it - we will also have one odd man out (since Demo, myself, Lord Loss, and Mekboy would all be uncertain).

If Arctik is loyal then it plays out the way you discussed.

Orkeosaurus wrote:I think perhaps it would be unwise to shoot Arctik today.

I'm not sure if id' phrase it as unwise, it might not be the best plan. But, what we do have to do is either shoot him or assure a servo skull against him because until we know Arctik's loyalty we cannot fully trust Demo. The more fully trustable people we have the easier it will be to catch the heretic(s).

Gornall wrote:What happens if we shoot someone besides Arctik and Demogerg and finish the round-robin loop they started?

That's an interesting thought.

In this plot we shoot either Mekboy, Lord-Loss or myself, yes? (C is shot)
Then we have Demo investigate A, A investigate B, and B investigate Arctik.

That gives us a four man round robin with three people (A, B, and Arctik) who are potential unknowns. At that point worst case is probably if Arctik flips traitor because it will still leave an uncertain pall over Demo. If Arctik flips loyalist however it seems like we could have an easy time finding any other traitors in the circle. (which is easier or harder depending on whether or not whomever we shoot ends up as loyalist or traitor)

Reply by: Arctik_Firangi - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/25 04:47:17

Post by: Arctik_Firangi

Thor665 wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:yet you seem to shrug off the total concept of my ideas without addressing the actual points I make. You say a lot without really saying anything at all.

That is unfair and a misrepresentation. I said I liked your idea but disagreed with the two skull release as opposed to a one or three skull release. ((OOC - my second post on page 10 - specifically discussing your plan and my issues with it))

It may come across as a misrepresentation, but it's a fair thing to say. In that post you managed two small paragraphs on what I had said. I'm sorry, I really don't expect everyone to provide in-depth critques of the plans I've mentioned, but I can't help be a little annoyed when critiqued with passing comments, regardless of the points you agree with me on. In reply to that post I did explain why we might use two skulls tonight and use the third if required tomorrow. I've accepted that three would be a good idea, but if there are two heretics left, one will almost certainly be a possessed. We're not likely to give the third probe to anyone other than one of our wounded Tech Priests, and if there is a possesed we're going to lose two probe recipients .The possessed pops Demogerg, who is hence useless regardless of whether you find me to be loyal or not, and the tech priest will be killed by the other. We lose two skulls and loyalists. If there is not a possessed, I'm not particularly worried by there being two heretics at all.

One thing that a traitor+possessed or a pair of regular heretics could do is to stab Gornall and a random unwounded loyalist... but I doubt that they would get far trying that. If they did, we'd still have a 50/50 between two people and at least one skull will go off... but then we can't get probes off on our tech-priests safely unless we guarantee an unwounded loyalist with our investigation... oh gak. At least they wouldn't be able to wound the investigated loyalist in that case. That would be a pretty horrible situation, but it's a better chance than if we lose 2/3 of our skull-deployers, though, which can only happen if we deploy all three.

Deploying two, we will get one skull off regardless of whether there are two heretics or not. If there is a single possessed, he can only safely kill Demogerg, and if he does so he won't be able to attack the next day, meaning we can safely deploy the next day. If there is a heretic+possessed, admittedly they could go single wounds on Demogerg and pull a wound/double wound bloodbath the next day, but by then Demogerg and I have been proven innocent, and the single probe that does go off will rule out or damn one of Thor, Mekboy and Lord-Loss. The biggest problem with two characters killing a single guy is that we won't know how many traitors there are until the next morning (I assume we aren't to be notified of the difference between a possessed kill and a double stab)...

In thi case, Gornall will deploy against one of the remaining two, and if two traitors play the 'stab Gornall and a random unwounded loyalist' game I mentioned above the following day, we will be in another 50/50 situation with... two techpriests and one other confirmed loyalist or traitor in play. If no one gets stabbed, we have a single possessed... most likely...

Summing up for now (have to go back to work), three skulls+shoot me is dangerous if there are two traitors, because one will probably be a possessed. The round-robin you mention is probably the best way to do triple skulls, but it stills puts us in at best a 50/50.

I'll have a think about round-robin later tonight. I'll leave it up to other people to come up wth situations where I am a traitor, because it's not worth my time.

Lord-Loss, do you have anything useful to add to this debate? FYI, you're my number two...

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/25 07:14:08

Post by: Gornall

Let's do a quick discussion of my last round robin idea and see if we can find any holes in it. If we don't see any problems with that by Noon EST, I say we go with that idea (plan on shooting Lord-Loss). I'd also say we need to have skulls in before 6 EST (I have family arriving at 8EST). If skulls are in and I have not shot anyone by 8 EST, have one of the Tech Priests wrest the gun away and pop Lord-Loss.

Sound reasonable? (This is NOT set in stone yet, so speak up fast).

EDIT:: Changed Mekboy to Lord-Loss... because I felt like it, and people seem to think Lord-Loss is the most suspicious.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/25 07:17:15

Post by: Thor665

Arctik_Firangi wrote:It may come across as a misrepresentation, but it's a fair thing to say. In that post you managed two small paragraphs on what I had said. I'm sorry, I really don't expect everyone to provide in-depth critques of the plans I've mentioned, but I can't help be a little annoyed when critiqued with passing comments, regardless of the points you agree with me on.

That isn't what you said though, you said I shrugged off your idea. I, in actuallity, agreed with it for the most part. I didn't go indepth because unlike some of the other ideas that have been posted up you already did that work so there was little point in me doing it again in order to say I agreed for the most part. This still seems like a random and strange accusation to me - especially since you immediately asked for more input from me about your plan (your 3rd post on page 10) and I immediately responded (my immediately following post)

I don't see how you can suggest that I'm blowing over your idea. Also, if that is such a way to indemnify me why in the universe wouldn't you call Lord-Loss for his "I agree" post where that's all he said? Is it just because he agreed? What about everyone else who didn't even comment on it? I will point out this almost feels like you're trying to paint me strangely or trying to scare me about the way I'm offering commentary on the plans and trying to help formulate the best one. That's my reaction to how you're responding to this and to me. Clearly you won't agree with my interpretation, but I just need more clarification about how my legitimate commentary and discussion about your plan counts as me saying a lot but really saying nothing. At least give me the points you're feeling I'm ducking and I'll offer some thoughts on them, but don't claim I'm ducking and just leave the accusation hanging out there with no evidence - that doesn't appear to help our situation in my mind.

In reply to that post I did explain why we might use two skulls tonight and use the third if required tomorrow. I've accepted that three would be a good idea

And I will note this is an idea first floated by me in response to your plan - I still don't see how you can be working over feedback I provided while accusing me of not providing real feedback.

but if there are two heretics left, one will almost certainly be a possessed. We're not likely to give the third probe to anyone other than one of our wounded Tech Priests, and if there is a possesed we're going to lose two probe recipients .The possessed pops Demogerg, who is hence useless regardless of whether you find me to be loyal or not, and the tech priest will be killed by the other. We lose two skulls and loyalists. If there is not a possessed, I'm not particularly worried by there being two heretics at all.

I agree - the Demogerg as a skull user is a good tactic unless there is a possessed or unless we don't give them another target (so they can just double stab). Also, we basically always lose two servo skulls except in round robin, though that makes the servo skulls more chancy. There are a few situations though where mass servo skull release will actually give us two results instead of one because occasionally we can force heretics to kill techpriests and not Gornall, and Gornall is almost like a servo skull in his own right.

Deploying two, we will get one skull off regardless of whether there are two heretics or not.

Unless one is a possessed, kills Demo and the other stabs Gornall - unless you mean we can then shoot the exposed heretic and then release a skull the next day? I'll agree that gets one off, but why not just release three in one day and get one off as it will give them less time to be stabbing us?

Really the biggest danger I foresee with your plan of using Demo ((OOC - and I understand why you don't want to argue it whether or not you're playing a loyalist or a heretic, but it does need to be said in case you are a heretic)) is if after we shoot you you flip heretic. At that point we've already become locked in to using Demo as a servo skull operator and we have no idea if you were telling the truth about him or not, which tosses him back into the unknown category and negates the effects of a servo skull to some degree until we can verify him through some other method. I'm vaguely against your method because of this because you are, in my mind, the most likely seeming heretic due to some of your actions like a launch of a servo skull without discussing it with others and some other stuff. It does leave a big question mark there and makes it risky to trust your Demo servo skull since we can't really verify it till after you are shot. That's why I think currently I am leaning towards Gornall's modified round robin plan - but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the round robin tactic (especially Gornall's method)

Lord-Loss, do you have anything useful to add to this debate? FYI, you're my number two...

Hey, something we can agree on.

Reply by: Thor665 - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/25 07:23:13

Post by: Thor665

Gornall wrote:Let's do a quick discussion of my last round robin idea and see if we can find any holes in it. If we don't see any problems with that by Noon EST, I say we go with that idea (plan on shooting Mekboy). I'd also say we need to have skulls in before 6 EST (I have family arriving at 8EST). If skulls are in and I have not shot anyone by 8 EST, have one of the Tech Priests wrest the gun away and pop Mekboy.

Sound reasonable? (This is NOT set in stone yet, so speak up fast).

((ninja-ed))

As I said, I would love to hear Arctik's thoughts on your plan and I do think it might be the best one offered up thus far. ((I'll try to poke some holes in it tomorrow morning when I've had some sleep, though I'm pretty sure I already gave some feedback [checks - I did but it was minimal, I'll offer up some more]))

I presume you're opting for us to shoot Mekboy simply because of how quiet he has been? ((i.e. not posting in a while)) I don't disagree with that logic as we will need some back and forth discussion after what happens tomorrow in any case.

Do we have a fallback plan if we find any glaring holes in yours? We might want to discuss that too in order to prevent having to make that decision at the 11th hour.

Reply by: Gornall - click to view full reply 

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Heretic! Game One: Honoris Causa, ended: VICTORIA IMPERIALIS! @ 2009/11/25 07:29:24

Post by: Gornall

I actually changed to Lord-Loss since you and Arctik consider him "number 2" (I'm assuming second most suspicious), but it doesn't matter to me. We can take a quick vote if nothing else.

As for fallback, I really don't know. I'd say they're all about equal when it comes down to it. We will have to be careful about making sure we get them all in on time.

Status Update (Time we go to Night phase?)

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