A frind of mine also plays DH/DA, and he get's roflstomped every time he hits the table.

Sanctjud wrote:

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

Well, to tell the truth, I was kinda hoping my favorite wargame wasn't filled with a bunch of people who think "OMG I MUST HAZ BEST UNITZ TO WINZ OR ELZE GAMEZ NOH FUN!", and filled more with people who actually play just to have fun, taking their fun with just actually playing the game, but I can see this isn't the case.

Seriously, looking at the lists some of you people have here, Its DoW: WA with massed ogryns and termies all over again, and yeah sure those (like these) are easily countered, but still hot fun to play against

Slarg232 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

Well, to tell the truth, I was kinda hoping my favorite wargame wasn't filled with a bunch of people who think "OMG I MUST HAZ BEST UNITZ TO WINZ OR ELZE GAMEZ NOH FUN!", and filled more with people who actually play just to have fun, taking their fun with just actually playing the game, but I can see this isn't the case.

Seriously, looking at the lists some of you people have here, Its DoW: WA with massed ogryns and termies all over again, and yeah sure those (like these) are easily countered, but still hot fun to play against

Um, I have fun when I'm playing a good list against another good list. Makes the game much more interesting.

Oh, here's your position in Caps Lock (makes it seem much stupider, huh?)

OHZNOEZ!! PEEPUL R PLAYIN HTIS GAEM 2 WIN!! THEREZ NO WAY THAT ANYWUN CULD EVAR HAV FUHN WITH HTOSE LISTZ!!

"Fun" is subjective.
What is your definition?
What is the definition that your gaming group have?

Some people like to throw down, while some people like to play with whatever they find cool and don't care about the effectiveness...and that's cool.

But, to expect one or the other to conform is not realistic. Competitive environments are competitive environments...they seek to challenge those to beat all others...whether it be just battle points, or battle points and X, Y, Z (X,Y,Z being random soft scores).

People have different standards of list building...it's different for everyone, and I doubt that all the lists in the Army List section have been followed through to the end...

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

Well, to tell the truth, I was kinda hoping my favorite wargame wasn't filled with a bunch of people who think "OMG I MUST HAZ BEST UNITZ TO WINZ OR ELZE GAMEZ NOH FUN!", and filled more with people who actually play just to have fun, taking their fun with just actually playing the game, but I can see this isn't the case.

Seriously, looking at the lists some of you people have here, Its DoW: WA with massed ogryns and termies all over again, and yeah sure those (like these) are easily countered, but still hot fun to play against

Um, I have fun when I'm playing a good list against another good list. Makes the game much more interesting.

Oh, here's your position in Caps Lock (makes it seem much stupider, huh?)

OHZNOEZ!! PEEPUL R PLAYIN HTIS GAEM 2 WIN!! THEREZ NO WAY THAT ANYWUN CULD EVAR HAV FUHN WITH HTOSE LISTZ!!

OH NOEZ!1! HTAT WAS B0TH OR1G4N0L AN W177Y! AH D0N'T NOE HOW TO C0M3 B4CK T0 TH4T!


anywho....

To answer your questions, sanctjud, I beleive in a form of Fun where you are trying to win, but not trying to bitch your oponenet out of a win.

I suppose a parrallel could be drawn between what alot of the people do is to compare Warhammer 40K to fighting games, like Mortal Kombat, or Street Fighter. You divide these people into 3 groups:

group #1: The people who play for fun/to get better. You know the type; they use a variety of moves (or rather, Units). They dont win everytime, but they play to have fun and it doesnt bother them. I would place myself into this category

Group #2: The people who are amazing. You know, they know which attacks to block, which attacks to counter, and when to just back up. Probably play professionally or are just that amazing. Usually will help new players out, and generally good people

Group #3: Bitch group, does whatever it needs to to win, which includes waiting to pick a character that can counter yours, just doing one move, usually a trip, over and over again (or rather, unit), most likely will rub your face in the dirt afterwards. Needs to be purged with fire, IMO. I have no respect for these people, I doubt they have any for themselves

I know fun is subjective, and I know its not my place to tell people what is and is not "fun". But good god, if you don't like what Chaos brings to the table, go play a different army. The Dark Gods don't need whiney peons and excuses, they need results. If people truely beleive Chaos is handicapped, they should leave the gimp for those of us who prefer to work with the underdogs so that victory is that much sweeter when it does come.

A small afterthought: sometimes, spamming 1 unit type is acceptable, Like with me and my brothers, but before anyone says "of course its ok if HE does it", let me explain:

Me and my brothers are building an IG apocolypse army where we are all playing different peices of the puzzle. I have nine basilisks, because I am the artillery division of the whole army; no one else has any. My eldest bro has 9 lemon russ, because he's the tank division. My other bro has millions of foot sloggers, with the one baneblade because it would be to expensive to try to get 3,000pts of just foot troops.

That is totally different then having 20 monliths and little else on the table.

Slarg232 wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

Well, to tell the truth, I was kinda hoping my favorite wargame wasn't filled with a bunch of people who think "OMG I MUST HAZ BEST UNITZ TO WINZ OR ELZE GAMEZ NOH FUN!", and filled more with people who actually play just to have fun, taking their fun with just actually playing the game, but I can see this isn't the case.

Seriously, looking at the lists some of you people have here, Its DoW: WA with massed ogryns and termies all over again, and yeah sure those (like these) are easily countered, but still hot fun to play against

Um, I have fun when I'm playing a good list against another good list. Makes the game much more interesting.

Oh, here's your position in Caps Lock (makes it seem much stupider, huh?)

OHZNOEZ!! PEEPUL R PLAYIN HTIS GAEM 2 WIN!! THEREZ NO WAY THAT ANYWUN CULD EVAR HAV FUHN WITH HTOSE LISTZ!!

OH NOEZ!1! HTAT WAS B0TH OR1G4N0L AN W177Y! AH D0N'T NOE HOW TO C0M3 B4CK T0 TH4T!


anywho....

To answer your questions, sanctjud, I beleive in a form of Fun where you are trying to win, but not trying to bitch your oponenet out of a win.

I suppose a parrallel could be drawn between what alot of the people do is to compare Warhammer 40K to fighting games, like Mortal Kombat, or Street Fighter. You divide these people into 3 groups:

group #1: The people who play for fun/to get better. You know the type; they use a variety of moves (or rather, Units). They dont win everytime, but they play to have fun and it doesnt bother them. I would place myself into this category

Group #2: The people who are amazing. You know, they know which attacks to block, which attacks to counter, and when to just back up. Probably play professionally or are just that amazing. Usually will help new players out, and generally good people

Group #3: Bitch group, does whatever it needs to to win, which includes waiting to pick a character that can counter yours, just doing one move, usually a trip, over and over again (or rather, unit), most likely will rub your face in the dirt afterwards. Needs to be purged with fire, IMO. I have no respect for these people, I doubt they have any for themselves

I know fun is subjective, and I know its not my place to tell people what is and is not "fun". But good god, if you don't like what Chaos brings to the table, go play a different army. The Dark Gods don't need whiney peons and excuses, they need results. If people truely beleive Chaos is handicapped, they should leave the gimp for those of us who prefer to work with the underdogs so that victory is that much sweeter when it does come.

A small afterthought: sometimes, spamming 1 unit type is acceptable, Like with me and my brothers, but before anyone says "of course its ok if HE does it", let me explain:

Me and my brothers are building an IG apocolypse army where we are all playing different peices of the puzzle. I have nine basilisks, because I am the artillery division of the whole army; no one else has any. My eldest bro has 9 lemon russ, because he's the tank division. My other bro has millions of foot sloggers, with the one baneblade because it would be to expensive to try to get 3,000pts of just foot troops.

That is totally different then having 20 monliths and little else on the table.

Speaking for myself here (and probably a good few Chaos players); I don't hate the codex because it sucks (it's pretty solid). I hate it because the Sultan of Bland thinks the Emperor's Bald Screaming Men are just dreamy and that while all MEHREEN variants need their own codexes because they're just sooo SPESHUL, that ALL the renegade and traitor chapters can be represented by ONE incredibly spartan list that leaves the interesting units acting like team killing fethtards half the time.

Also:

Mortified Penguin wrote:Speaking for myself here (and probably a good few Chaos players); I don't hate the codex because it sucks (it's pretty solid). I hate it because the Sultan of Bland thinks the Emperor's Bald Screaming Men are just dreamy and that while all MEHREEN variants need their own codexes because they're just sooo SPESHUL, that ALL the renegade and traitor chapters can be represented by ONE incredibly spartan list that leaves the interesting units acting like team killing fethtards half the time.

Also:

Then if that is what you think, I wholeheartily agree. But most of the people in here are saying it sucks, which is what I am getting at. I apologise if I have had a misconception about the entire thing.

also, I do not understand the picture

group #1
Which is great… I’ve been in that group with respect to Chaos. I have my own share of championing defending Possessed and Lesser Daemons to promote them into the “Functional” category of descriptions…but I am under no illusions that they are still inefficient choices… units like them occupy a good majority of the choices in the CSM army list.

Group 2 and 3 are not mutually exclusive though.
You are saying that those that ‘help’ new players out are ‘good’ people. But that help isn’t always productive… some goad and some guide. As for the bitch group…what do you do in response? Put them in their place, let it happen, whine back, bad mouth those people? Are you suggestion those that are suggesting CSM is tier two is the bitch group? They they do everything to win? We get to cheat a tourneys and change our armies before each game (obviously not)?

The response to YOUR Group 3 is as important as what Group 3 is. They could be rules lawyers… etc. Just before cheating and stuff like that. It’s up to the TO and those involved to curb this. Bitching back at them doesn’t do very much.

The Dark Gods don't need whiney peons and excuses, they need results.

The results of our whining could be better codicies… entirely worth it

If people truely beleive Chaos is handicapped, they should leave the gimp for those of us who prefer to work with the underdogs so that victory is that much sweeter when it does come.

It’s not handicapped, it’s just not flexible.
In general, stuff is priced more expensive and has lack of force multipliers…it essentially missed the GW bandwagon that is the SMurf codex.
The idea behind Chaos Being handicapped in a competeitive environment is that it won’t win with similarly experienced players, and hence the victory though sweet won’t be realized in a consistant manner…

More Importantly:

“(“My brothers and I…stuff we have spammed…, then it’s “totally different then having 20 monliths and little else on the table”)”
There’s obviously no double standard there

Slarg said LEMON russ. Good spot check

Slarg232 wrote:

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:

nice, buddy, way to not make yourself look like an ass on the interwebs

Wait... we aren't supposed to? I thought we weren't supposed to be all Carebear, Rainbows, and Lolipops online...

I guess the louder people on Dakka prefer the stick rather than the carrot...it gets the point across faster...just look at GWAR!

Well, to tell the truth, I was kinda hoping my favorite wargame wasn't filled with a bunch of people who think "OMG I MUST HAZ BEST UNITZ TO WINZ OR ELZE GAMEZ NOH FUN!", and filled more with people who actually play just to have fun, taking their fun with just actually playing the game, but I can see this isn't the case.

Seriously, looking at the lists some of you people have here, Its DoW: WA with massed ogryns and termies all over again, and yeah sure those (like these) are easily countered, but still hot fun to play against

Um, I have fun when I'm playing a good list against another good list. Makes the game much more interesting.

Oh, here's your position in Caps Lock (makes it seem much stupider, huh?)

OHZNOEZ!! PEEPUL R PLAYIN HTIS GAEM 2 WIN!! THEREZ NO WAY THAT ANYWUN CULD EVAR HAV FUHN WITH HTOSE LISTZ!!

OH NOEZ!1! HTAT WAS B0TH OR1G4N0L AN W177Y! AH D0N'T NOE HOW TO C0M3 B4CK T0 TH4T!


anywho....

To answer your questions, sanctjud, I beleive in a form of Fun where you are trying to win, but not trying to bitch your oponenet out of a win.

I suppose a parrallel could be drawn between what alot of the people do is to compare Warhammer 40K to fighting games, like Mortal Kombat, or Street Fighter. You divide these people into 3 groups:

group #1: The people who play for fun/to get better. You know the type; they use a variety of moves (or rather, Units). They dont win everytime, but they play to have fun and it doesnt bother them. I would place myself into this category

Group #2: The people who are amazing. You know, they know which attacks to block, which attacks to counter, and when to just back up. Probably play professionally or are just that amazing. Usually will help new players out, and generally good people

Group #3: Bitch group, does whatever it needs to to win, which includes waiting to pick a character that can counter yours, just doing one move, usually a trip, over and over again (or rather, unit), most likely will rub your face in the dirt afterwards. Needs to be purged with fire, IMO. I have no respect for these people, I doubt they have any for themselves

I know fun is subjective, and I know its not my place to tell people what is and is not "fun". But good god, if you don't like what Chaos brings to the table, go play a different army. The Dark Gods don't need whiney peons and excuses, they need results. If people truely beleive Chaos is handicapped, they should leave the gimp for those of us who prefer to work with the underdogs so that victory is that much sweeter when it does come.

A small afterthought: sometimes, spamming 1 unit type is acceptable, Like with me and my brothers, but before anyone says "of course its ok if HE does it", let me explain:

Me and my brothers are building an IG apocolypse army where we are all playing different peices of the puzzle. I have nine basilisks, because I am the artillery division of the whole army; no one else has any. My eldest bro has 9 lemon russ, because he's the tank division. My other bro has millions of foot sloggers, with the one baneblade because it would be to expensive to try to get 3,000pts of just foot troops.

That is totally different then having 20 monliths and little else on the table.

Thing, is, often, groups #1, #2 and #3 are the same people (and aren't as bad as you make them out to be). Really, people who WANT to get better won't use the same attack over and over in casuals, so they can learn more about the character and get better, (just as I might use odd units in casual 40k to get a feel for how they play) but if it's a serious game and you can't figure out how to deal with it...well, why wouldn't they use the same move or unit over and over? and what exactly is "bitching someone out of a win" anyways?

Seriously! this one guy even wrote a big article about it!

Really, I've once saw a tournament match in SF4 where one player kept using Sagat's tiger uppercut over and over again... partially because it was funny and partially because the other guy simply couldn't counter it.

David Sirlin wrote:Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is "boring" or "not fun." Let's consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play "for fun" and not explore the extremities of the game. They won't find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they'll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he's again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic.

Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the "cheap stuff" and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it's unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Let's return to the group of scrubs. They don't know the first thing about all the depth I've been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more "fun." Superficially, their argument does at least look true, since often their games will be more "wet and wild" than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn't nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent's mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter.

emphasis mine above.

^^ No emphasis is needed, the whole thing is a gold mine.

As a new player, of Chaos and 40k in general, I don't believe that CSM are 2nd tier. I think they can run with the best of 'em, in most settings.

An issue, however, is GW's concern with them, as we have one codex, where the Space Marines have many. Fluff-wise, this is not good, but gameplay-wise, it could be an advantage, in that we can mix all our chapters. We can have the assault prowess of Khorne, and the toughness of PM's.

Another is the mindset of players. On this, and other sites, the agreed upon army list is a DP or 2 with PM spam, when Chaos has much more to offer.

Spamming one aspect leaves you open to the weaknesses of that aspect, with no counter. For example, a Daemon Prince's melee prowess, as mentioned earlier, is wasted when he is all but used solely for lash. Alternatively, a Sorcerer may prove useful in his own right, by not being a fire magnet, with the same psychic potential.

The Plague Marines, while Formidable, have weakness as well. What their armour can't stop, neither can FNP. What games I have played, I have used Thousand Sons and Khorne Berzerkers. The Sons have proven incredibly survivable, their invuln save plugging the holes the power armour leaves. Plague marines reinforce what is strong, with the same weakness any MEQ has against tougher weapons.

I suppose my point is that Chaos players have used too much of a good thing, assuming what works best in most scenarios is the best choice for all scenarios. Units like Berzerkers can do a specific thing well, and usaind controlled amounts of niche units in an army can make all the difference that spamming PM's cannot.

Partof1 wrote:As a new player, of Chaos and 40k in general, I don't believe that CSM are 2nd tier. I think they can run with the best of 'em, in most settings.

An issue, however, is GW's concern with them, as we have one codex, where the Space Marines have many. Fluff-wise, this is not good, but gameplay-wise, it could be an advantage, in that we can mix all our chapters. We can have the assault prowess of Khorne, and the toughness of PM's.

Another is the mindset of players. On this, and other sites, the agreed upon army list is a DP or 2 with PM spam, when Chaos has much more to offer.

Spamming one aspect leaves you open to the weaknesses of that aspect, with no counter. For example, a Daemon Prince's melee prowess, as mentioned earlier, is wasted when he is all but used solely for lash. Alternatively, a Sorcerer may prove useful in his own right, by not being a fire magnet, with the same psychic potential.

The Plague Marines, while Formidable, have weakness as well. What their armour can't stop, neither can FNP. What games I have played, I have used Thousand Sons and Khorne Berzerkers. The Sons have proven incredibly survivable, their invuln save plugging the holes the power armour leaves. Plague marines reinforce what is strong, with the same weakness any MEQ has against tougher weapons.

I suppose my point is that Chaos players have used too much of a good thing, assuming what works best in most scenarios is the best choice for all scenarios. Units like Berzerkers can do a specific thing well, and usaind controlled amounts of niche units in an army can make all the difference that spamming PM's cannot.

The over-use of spammy lists is because everything else is crap. Accept it and move on; Codex: Chaos Fail Marines can't compete.

I haven't seen the BA codex, but instinct says it isn't the end-all be-all of 40k. Is it even out yet? if so, only for a handful of days. No matter what you play, you haven't had sufficient time to adjust to it. Chances are, there are weaknesses, but less than blatant ones, that will be discovered and exploited in the future.

Partof1 wrote:I haven't seen the BA codex, but instinct says it isn't the end-all be-all of 40k. Is it even out yet? if so, only for a handful of days. No matter what you play, you haven't had sufficient time to adjust to it. Chances are, there are weaknesses, but less than blatant ones, that will be discovered and exploited in the future.

We know it's a better Khornate codex than Codex: Jervis Hates Chaos.

I know I was seriously considering running death company instead of berzerkers. Just as killy, but way tougher, for less points... where do I sign up?

I know they're not scoring, but since berzerkers aren't any tougher than a space marine they rarely survive to score an objective anyways.

Sanctjud wrote:
“(“My brothers and I…stuff we have spammed…, then it’s “totally different then having 20 monliths and little else on the table”)”
There’s obviously no double standard there

"It's not handicapped..... stuff is priced more expensive.... has a lack of..... bandwagon"

any quote sounds bad if said like that. read it again, and you will see why its different for us, than one person.

Welp, I guess I am a scrub, but guess what? I would much rather be a social player than someone who thinks that winning a video game gives them "mad skillz" and makes them "Pro"

penguin, go troll somewhere else.

Slarg232 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:
“(“My brothers and I…stuff we have spammed…, then it’s “totally different then having 20 monliths and little else on the table”)”
There’s obviously no double standard there

"It's not handicapped..... stuff is priced more expensive.... has a lack of..... bandwagon"

any quote sounds bad if said like that. read it again, and you will see why its different for us, than one person.

Welp, I guess I am a scrub, but guess what? I would much rather be a social player than someone who thinks that winning a video game gives them "mad skillz" and makes them "Pro"

penguin, go troll somewhere else.

Why, I'm flattered you consider me important enough to label.

Seriously, though, my beef with the Chaos 'dex has nothing to do with it's competitiveness (I think it can do fine in a tourney environment). My beef stems with how the list is dull as feth to play; Ultrasmurfs are more interesting for God's sake. The fact that the new Blangels book represents Khornate fluff better mechanically is the final nail in the coffin for my desire to play with C:CSM. And as a "social player"* this should affect your enjoyment too, because lists that are no fun to play are no fun to fight against.

This can't be going anywhere beneficial.

Oh, I don't know. Maybe Mortified Penguin will move onto losing with the Blood Angels and stop being an embarrassment to the Chaos Space Marines.

Nurglitch wrote:Oh, I don't know. Maybe Mortified Penguin will move onto losing with the Blood Angels and stop being an embarrassment to the Chaos Space Marines.

Oh... oh snap.

But seriously, this BA angle is intriguing. Is every new codex that comes out a slap in the face to Chaos players, or is it just this one specifically?

Mortified Penguin wrote:
Speaking for myself here (and probably a good few Chaos players); I don't hate the codex because it sucks (it's pretty solid). I hate it because the Sultan of Bland thinks the Emperor's Bald Screaming Men are just dreamy and that while all MEHREEN variants need their own codexes because they're just sooo SPESHUL, that ALL the renegade and traitor chapters can be represented by ONE incredibly spartan list that leaves the interesting units acting like team killing fethtards half the time.

Sanctjud wrote:
It’s not handicapped, it’s just not flexible.
In general, stuff is priced more expensive and has lack of force multipliers…it essentially missed the GW bandwagon that is the SMurf codex.
The idea behind Chaos Being handicapped in a competeitive environment is that it won’t win with similarly experienced players, and hence the victory though sweet won’t be realized in a consistant manner…

Mortified Penguin wrote:As a new player, of Chaos and 40k in general, I don't believe that CSM are 2nd tier. I think they can run with the best of 'em, in most settings.
The over-use of spammy lists is because everything else is crap. Accept it and move on; Codex: Chaos Fail Marines can't compete.

I'm re-quoting these as they pretty much hit the nail on the head with a thunder hammer. It's not that the dex is not useable, which is is, it's just that the dex is restrictive, has minimal upgrades and has inflated point costs (compared to other MEQ dexes).

Ok, a few pages back I posted pointing out the fact that the Pro CSM folks were posting evidence and the anti-CSM folks were posting theory. This was about the time when the UK GT results came out. I figured that shut down the debate, but lo and behold it continued.

Fine, said I, they want yet more proof. Lo and Behold, Adepticon was a very convenient setting for this. It was this weekend. Pro and Anti- CSM would have a platform to air their respective beliefs.

CSM did just fine.

So, Anti-CSM posters. Please provide evidence of how bad CSM are. Not theory. Not "they need spam to win". None of that noise. Point to an upcoming GT. Predict the codexes that will do better than CSM.

Or let this thread die.

... Chaos Wins! ...

My take on the Codex: CSM. I can build a couple good lists with it. However, it's Fast Attack options are the suq! The HQ options, aren't really options

I just wish it enabled more diversity in army construction.

I wish it expounded more on chapters like the alpha legion, or the traitor SW.

So...lets change it up... lets see all those top ranking lists...do they follow the same template?

It would support candy.man's summary if they were similar.

As to Slarg232, as the article suggests, you and those 'unfun' players are playing 2 different games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Partof1:
Shame on you, they are called Legions...not SMurfy Chapters...bad Partof1 bad!

Partof1 wrote:I wish it expounded more on chapters like the alpha legion, or the traitor SW.

I wish it included Legions. And didn't make people say, "CSM have chapterz!!11!"

I wish that there were different rules for different legions... like like... double heavy weapon IW squads... drooling... drowning in puddle of own drool from total awesomeness of thought

My apologies. I am still new, only mildly less so tham I was a few hours ago.

I wish it expounded on the legions, like Alpha Legion, and Skyrar's Dark Wolves

I dont think I could ever play a competitive chaos list. Its not that I lose to them constantly. I dont think I ever have. its just that my brain doesnt work around the way chaos does. I cant imagine in my brain how I would win with chaos marines.

I can go

lash sorceror

some marines

some obliterators

filler units. But that is it.

I think people need to step back and read the topic of the thread again.

It does not say "OMGZ Chaos R the wurst evar."

It says they're "second tier."

While "tiers" are very arbitrary, I think that "second tier" can be reasonably construed as "good, but not the best."

And I think that fits chaos just right, compared to what's out there currently.

Cool. I disagree. I think that if you don't find Chaos Space Marines to be a top tier army, or you think they only have one competitive build, then you're not a particularly good player. They compare quite well to what's out there, but they just aren't shiny and new anymore.

Nurglitch wrote:I think that if you don't find Chaos Space Marines to be a top tier army, or you think they only have one competitive build, then you're not a particularly good player.

:slow golf clap:

/thread

And I think that if you think that Chaos is the best, then you're not playing against particularly good players.

Nurglitch wrote:Cool. I disagree. I think that if you don't find Chaos Space Marines to be a top tier army, or you think they only have one competitive build, then you're not a particularly good player. They compare quite well to what's out there, but they just aren't shiny and new anymore.

willydstyle wrote:And I think that if you think that Chaos is the best, then you're not playing against particularly good players.

So after trying to reconcile these two posts logically, I've concluded that you two only play each other and go roughly 50/50.

Right?


(Joke, ofc, no offense intended)

Haha, pretty much, I was just pointing out the absurdity of his post with some absurdity of my own.

Yes, because opinions that disagree with your own are absurd...

Nurglitch wrote:Yes, because opinions that disagree with your own are absurd...

You're putting words in his mouth. Your post was absurd, and definitely flame-bait; so is this one. Knock it off before a mod shows up.

It wasn't the disagreeing, it was the "you must be a bad player."

Darkhound:

How is it absurd to point out that the inability to make the most of the Chaos Space Marine Codex indicates that someone is not a particularly good player?

willydstyle:

Please explain how "not a particularly good player" means "bad player". Of course you're not a bad player, you're just not a particularly good one because you admit that you can't make the best of the Chaos Space Marine Codex. Surely your ego isn't so inflated that you find that insulting.

Nurglitch wrote:Darkhound:

How is it absurd to point out that the inability to make the most of the Chaos Space Marine Codex indicates that someone is not a particularly good player?

willydstyle:

Please explain how "not a particularly good player" means "bad player". Of course you're not a bad player, you're just not a particularly good one because you admit that you can't make the best of the Chaos Space Marine Codex. Surely your ego isn't so inflated that you find that insulting.

Alright, *my* point wasn't that Codex:Chaos Space Marines is uncompetitive. It's that it's boring. Sure, you can make a solid list with CSM, Havocs, and Raptors; in fact, they're solid options. It's just that if you're doing that, you might as well get C:SM and get nifty things like Speeders, Land Raider variants and Assault Terminators into the bargain. Furthermore, when the Space Wolf and Blood Angel codices both have mechanics that represent, say, World Eater armies better than their own codex, I think we can both recognise that something went wrong somewhere.

David Sirlin wrote: Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call...blah blah blah i'm a knob.

Honestly, playing the way you want is one thing, but douching on other people about the way they play is quite something else. I'm glad I don't know anyone like this dick.

Not a serious player? What serious players do or say is none of your fething business.

Not a casual player? What casual players do or say is none of your fething business.


As for the CSM Codex, competitivity doesn't really bother me, so the only issue I have with it is that it's got so much less personality and fewer options than the previous edition. I wanna see more options for the non-power traitor legions, LATD, more daemon weapons, back to the way the old daemons worked, etc etc. Nothing OP, just more chaosy and less like Bland Marines.

Legion wrote:

David Sirlin wrote: Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can't counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn't I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of "honor" or of "cheapness." The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call...blah blah blah i'm a knob.

Honestly, playing the way you want is one thing, but douching on other people about the way they play is quite something else. I'm glad I don't know anyone like this dick.

Not a serious player? What serious players do or say is none of your fething business.

Not a casual player? What casual players do or say is none of your fething business.


As for the CSM Codex, competitivity doesn't really bother me, so the only issue I have with it is that it's got so much less personality and fewer options than the previous edition. I wanna see more options for the non-power traitor legions, LATD, more daemon weapons, back to the way the old daemons worked, etc etc. Nothing OP, just more chaosy and less like Bland Marines.

Well, you can feel how you want, but the point of the little excerpt there (a point that is missed when you go TL;DR), is the following:

+ games may be more, not less, fun when they are played as no-holds-barred competitive matches instead of holding back - that is, "playing to win". The game might gain more depth and enjoyability at higher levels of play.
+ In order to play to win, you have to let go of mental stumbling blocks like the idea that "spamming moves/units" is "cheap". It's jus another tactic, and you have to figure out if it's good or bad.
+ He does note (in a later article) that "playing to win" and "playing to learn" are two different things, and that doing the latter can be more valuable to winning in the long term (hence, you should try out weird tactics / units even if people say they suck, to see what happens).

I know I have more fun trying to figure out how to beat a vulkan drop-pod player than walking all over some dude who only has one or 2 reliable anti-tank units at 2k because he's afraid of spamming. I'm not saying spamming is unconditionally good, but hell, you should try it at least to see if you like it.

AS for CSM, I think they are better than what some say about them. But I disagree about them being the best. They have good tools in that they have excellent troop choices, and any army with exposed infantry basically gives chaos an inflated charge range via lash, so objective missions - they're pretty good at them. On the other hand, it is a pain in the ass for the army to get meltaguns or any special weapons really that aren't in a chosen/havok squad (and we all know how awesome they are - no one uses them!) or an oblitorator squad. Aside from heavy support and lash princes, ... I almost never need to worry about any long range threats, even at 2k. There are definitely exploitable weaknesses showing up in the codex.

yet it can still win (as per the best general in the recently concluded adepticon blue tourney)...

As long as it is a "good" dex, then it has a fighting chance. Besides, there is no such thing as a sure win in 40k. Player skill does make a difference still, thank god.

Milquetoast Thug wrote:

Well, you can feel how you want, but the point of the little excerpt there (a point that is missed when you go TL;DR), is the following:

I got the point thanks; and I didn't say his views weren't valid, I just said he was a spanker.

People keep bringing up that a CSM player got the "Best General Award" people are making it seem that that makes the codex more flexible. It doesn't. That just means that that player is very good and has nothing to do with the codex. The player should be commended but it doesnt change the codex.

Sorry I had to point that out even though I do love the CSM codex. But I would love it more if there were legion differences. *coughcoughnudgenudgewinkwink*

Except that the Best General Award at Adepticon was simply the latest in a long line of successes that the Codex has seen recently, quite aside from the players.

The "best general" award just means the best win/loss stats doesn't it? What does a good general do, abstractly speaking? He takes a good army, takes advantage of it's strengths and minimizes it's weaknesses that can be taken advantage of. The rest is just smart maneuver and target priority decisions in my opinion (plus dice gods of course).

I think winning super-competative games has a lot to do with having a good army made to exploit its strong points, but yeah you have to not make stupid mistakes too, and have to know what strong points to exploit.

Every codex has some kind of 'cheese' or whatever you call it unit that is overpowered and underpriced, or really really good at one thing or another. They also all have weaknesses. For instance lacking heavy weapons troops (like the Space Wolves), having overpriced troops (like Eldar Guardians), not having all the Force Org slots you need for the really cool stuff (like Tau), the list goes on and on.

The 'competetive' game usually sees those exceptional units used, and the weaker ones kind of ignored in army building. Lash + Obliterators is a great example, as are Space Wolf Njal, Eldrad, drop-and-pop fire dragons, Ork Nob Bikers with a painboy, HUGE boyz mobs + Gaz, SMurfs loaded out with assault terminators in land raiders... and so on. They are no-brainer 'win' units and every army has a few of them. Chaos has theirs too. I don't play chaos but I have played against it several times and I understand what to look out for and what to worry less about (there actually isn't much of the latter), and my store games are usually pretty one-sided slaughters because one player makes a 'competative list' while the other one makes a 'fun list'... however you want to call it. There's the 'just take models that look cool and moosh 'em all together' attitude , and then there's the 'take the best most efficient stuff I can from my codex' attitude. Both are fun ways to play in my opinion, but CSM are perfectly capable of playing either kind of game IMO.

cheers guys.

The Best General award goes to the person with the highest battle point total.

In other words, the army that pantsed it's opponents the worst.

Gotcha. Doesn't that mean taking a seriously well streamlined army and just knowing how to use it well and avoid dumb mistakes? That will win you games but perhaps not points in other categories like 'army design' or 'sportsmanship' and all that other wierd subjective stuff... but hey it will win you games.

To tell you the truth, I think it's kind of UNsportsmanlike to rig the results on army composition by making an uncompetative 'fun' army that judges will give you points for, specifically because you know it's a competition, and therefore should try to be competative.... because that's what your challenger will expect at an event where prizes and honors and such are awarded.

I would love to see the worst stupidest, but fun and gimmicky player win a tournament just because I like rooting for underdogs, but it just isn't going to happen so long as people streamline their armies to perfection, and CSM are perfectly capable of being streamlined if the player knows how to build a 'not-fun-but-kicks-ass' list. Actually I can't think of any Codex that doesn't have that possibility. Some Codex make it easier to do that than others, the no-brainers like SM and SW, but all of them have the capability. (sorry no offense to SM players, but the Codex does make it a bit easier to build a wicked army without having to worry too much about details - since they're all good at everything and it practically plays itself - go go GW that's why we love you...)...

But... back on topic... I think all of the Codex have the possibility to be 'competative', it's just a bit harder to figure out the combos and exploitations for some armies compared to others. Don't get discouraged, get creative.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:People keep bringing up that a CSM player got the "Best General Award" people are making it seem that that makes the codex more flexible. It doesn't. That just means that that player is very good and has nothing to do with the codex. The player should be commended but it doesnt change the codex.

Sorry I had to point that out even though I do love the CSM codex. But I would love it more if there were legion differences. *coughcoughnudgenudgewinkwink*

Well, as this post is about CSM being 2nd tier, it's pretty dang relevant that best general at adepticon went to a CSM player.

People who are dissappointed with the construction on CSM legions using this codex are simply failing on the hobby end, and that's NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT the fault of the codex. Personally I'd like each legion to have it's own codex too, but I'd also like to win the lottery. People are always crying about their lost legions, but typically just use that as an excuse to powergame and it's pathetic. I think everyone who is immersed in the hobby to a moderate extent know a guy or two who runs competitive and fluffy legion armies. There are perfectly thematic and highly competitive builds available for virtually every CSM legion, if you know what you are doing. I began writing a short article in the army list section on this topic last week but have decided to write this up as an in depth look at all the original traitor legions and how they are made to work in the current dex. I'll put up a note in this thread when it's done.

40kenthusiast wrote:Ok, a few pages back I posted pointing out the fact that the Pro CSM folks were posting evidence and the anti-CSM folks were posting theory. This was about the time when the UK GT results came out. I figured that shut down the debate, but lo and behold it continued.

Fine, said I, they want yet more proof. Lo and Behold, Adepticon was a very convenient setting for this. It was this weekend. Pro and Anti- CSM would have a platform to air their respective beliefs.

CSM did just fine.

So, Anti-CSM posters. Please provide evidence of how bad CSM are. Not theory. Not "they need spam to win". None of that noise. Point to an upcoming GT. Predict the codexes that will do better than CSM.

Or let this thread die.

In fluff and soft score tourneys, they (and any list) can do just fine, except for power lists.

In 'Ard Boyz environments, they (meaning CSM) don't have many options to be competitive.

Adepticon does pairings arbitrarily. GT's are can be dominated (and certianly influenced by) soft scores.

Just like folks stated before last year's 'ard boyz finals how good orks were, until they got to the top table and most of them got smoked.

I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

imweasel wrote:In 'Ard Boyz environments, they (meaning CSM) don't have many options to be competitive.

yeah that list is pretty blunt man. I think that kind of ferocity and stubborness on a table could pretty much prove anybody wrong about whether chaos is competative.

Tier 1... Tier 2... Tier 3... those sorts of ambiguous terms just seem silly to me. Guard used to suck back when you could follow up, now they kick ass with the 21 lascan salute, just because players haven't figured how to counter it. Eldar and Tau used to rock, but now they are weaker due to the changes of rules, c'est la vie. Adapt people, adapt, and any army can kick some ass. I believe the above posted list is a good example.

In an evironment where winning matters tiers are never to be ignored no matter how much they "Don't matter".

They do not matter nearly as much here because of threads like this.

A well build chaos list can beat any list you can come up with. Not just dual-lash-9-oblit spam. Fluffy Khorne can be competitive, fluffy nurgle can be awesome, the list goes on.

Just because it is beyond the capacity of yourself and your peers to construct a valid, effective chaos army does not automatically make chaos a "tier 2" army; you *could* be a tier 2 PLAYER!

Kungfuhustler wrote:There are perfectly thematic and highly competitive builds available for virtually every CSM legion, if you know what you are doing.

Usually this involves plague marines, berzerkers, and liberal doses of "counts-as".

Terminus wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:There are perfectly thematic and highly competitive builds available for virtually every CSM legion, if you know what you are doing.

Usually this involves plague marines, berzerkers, and liberal doses of "counts-as".

Plague marines for a nurgle themed army, berserkers for a khorne themed army - I am seeing a pattern here - use troops specific to a god when building a fluffy list around a god.


Yup, most good chaos marine lists use some of the good troop choices out of that codex. I don't understand it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think I am probably coming off as an ass and i don't mean to. I just get irritated when people don't understand how to use a tool so they deduce that the tool is faulty.

The chaos marine codex is still a solid performer.

Chaos has an advantage in that all four chaos powers are in the same Codex, so you can take a bit of this and a bit of that and fling it all together taking advantage of each power's strongpoint. Imperial players do not get the option to take Blood Angels assault squads, Space Wolf Psyker and wolf guard, Ultramarines tactical squads with IG tanks all led by Inquisitor lords or Marneus or something. Chaos, however can do the whole 'chaos undivided' paraadoxical approach (how can chaos be united? It's friggin CHAOS for christsake! but oh well... I digress...) and toss in khorn berserkers with nurgle plaguemarines and tzeentch sorcerors and slaanesh princes. In that regard, I think the codex is actually really flexible and forgiving for crazy mishmashes of play style.

While you can mix and match gods and their unique units the choices for units are severely limited. This is a big downfall as units like Tsons are overpriced and from a competitive stance unusable. And the book written as it is, seems to encourage the mixing of chaos gods due to such limited variety. Which is just not fluffy and really disappointing, but probably isnt enough to lower Chaos to a tier 2 army.

Guitardian wrote:Chaos has an advantage in that all four chaos powers are in the same Codex, so you can take a bit of this and a bit of that and fling it all together taking advantage of each power's strongpoint. Imperial players do not get the option to take Blood Angels assault squads, Space Wolf Psyker and wolf guard, Ultramarines tactical squads with IG tanks all led by Inquisitor lords or Marneus or something. Chaos, however can do the whole 'chaos undivided' paraadoxical approach (how can chaos be united? It's friggin CHAOS for christsake! but oh well... I digress...) and toss in khorn berserkers with nurgle plaguemarines and tzeentch sorcerors and slaanesh princes. In that regard, I think the codex is actually really flexible and forgiving for crazy mishmashes of play style.

You should ask Abbadon how he united chaos... since he's done it quite a few time, and Horus before him.

willydstyle wrote:

Guitardian wrote:Chaos has an advantage in that all four chaos powers are in the same Codex, so you can take a bit of this and a bit of that and fling it all together taking advantage of each power's strongpoint. Imperial players do not get the option to take Blood Angels assault squads, Space Wolf Psyker and wolf guard, Ultramarines tactical squads with IG tanks all led by Inquisitor lords or Marneus or something. Chaos, however can do the whole 'chaos undivided' paraadoxical approach (how can chaos be united? It's friggin CHAOS for christsake! but oh well... I digress...) and toss in khorn berserkers with nurgle plaguemarines and tzeentch sorcerors and slaanesh princes. In that regard, I think the codex is actually really flexible and forgiving for crazy mishmashes of play style.

You should ask Abbadon how he united chaos... since he's done it quite a few time, and Horus before him.

Even the Gods of Chaos themselves form temporary form alliances to take down a different god if it is absolutely necessary. But should a codex be built to incorporate something like that, and use it as if its just commonplace?

Guitardian wrote:Chaos has an advantage in that all four chaos powers are in the same Codex, so you can take a bit of this and a bit of that and fling it all together taking advantage of each power's strongpoint. Imperial players do not get the option to take Blood Angels assault squads, Space Wolf Psyker and wolf guard, Ultramarines tactical squads with IG tanks all led by Inquisitor lords or Marneus or something. Chaos, however can do the whole 'chaos undivided' paraadoxical approach (how can chaos be united? It's friggin CHAOS for christsake! but oh well... I digress...) and toss in khorn berserkers with nurgle plaguemarines and tzeentch sorcerors and slaanesh princes. In that regard, I think the codex is actually really flexible and forgiving for crazy mishmashes of play style.

I liked the old rules for deamonic rivalry.
They worked as follows

No Khorne with Slaneesh

No Tzeentch with Nurgle

I really hope the old deamonic rivalry returns in our next codex, with the once exception that players who take Abbadon can ignore deamonic rivalry.

mrwittwer wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

Guitardian wrote:Chaos has an advantage in that all four chaos powers are in the same Codex, so you can take a bit of this and a bit of that and fling it all together taking advantage of each power's strongpoint. Imperial players do not get the option to take Blood Angels assault squads, Space Wolf Psyker and wolf guard, Ultramarines tactical squads with IG tanks all led by Inquisitor lords or Marneus or something. Chaos, however can do the whole 'chaos undivided' paraadoxical approach (how can chaos be united? It's friggin CHAOS for christsake! but oh well... I digress...) and toss in khorn berserkers with nurgle plaguemarines and tzeentch sorcerors and slaanesh princes. In that regard, I think the codex is actually really flexible and forgiving for crazy mishmashes of play style.

You should ask Abbadon how he united chaos... since he's done it quite a few time, and Horus before him.

Even the Gods of Chaos themselves form temporary form alliances to take down a different god if it is absolutely necessary. But should a codex be built to incorporate something like that, and use it as if its just commonplace?

The Black Crusades have been numerous and long... you think we shouldn't be able to play a list that represents a force that is part of one of the iconic struggles of 40k? People need to get off their mono-god bias.

I completely agree with that willy.

Undivided/undecided is a super-powered ultra competitive list, that's fairly un-debatable, but which traitor legion builds do you guys think can earn tier 1 status?

I've had great success with night lords, and I've heard world eaters and death guard are some clear winners from many sources. Any others that you feel are truly competitive?

I wasn't trying to frown upon the obvious paradox that exists, just pointing out I guess kind of a 'philosophical' point. How is it Chaos if it is undivided? Chaos is by nature pretty much the essence of entropy and division isn't it? Maybe that's why the paradox of 'chaos undivided' exists, because chaos is just chaotic enough that such an absurdity of thought could come into reality... THAT's how Abaddon managed to pull it together... the ultimate existential joke. I know, I've asked him. (upon the coaxing of an above poster) and he just laughed and told me to watch more infomercials...

I am convinced that the CSM Codex was really a Black Legion codex, with a splash of others... to form "Renegade" warbands, but nothing comprehensive enough to really do other "Chapters" without just painting and converting. I don't think this suggests they ever plan to make Chaos Chapter codices. Even the fluff in the book is geared around Black Legion with a splash of Kharn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, "Chaos Undivided" actually isn't a result of pettiness and chaos, its actually about a strong leader rallying several renegade bands as part of a offensive campaign. It's actually about the leader pushing aside the pettiness that may exist and rallying everybody he can, regardless of warband or god, and putting together a sizable force to inflict the most damage on the enemy. The fluff indicates that Abaddon has accomplished this many times. To me, this implies that they kept that option as a primary build method for the armies using the CSM Codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On that note... The Chaos Gods are looking for Chaos on a Macro-Scale, not micro, which means that need a strong organized arm to wield their power... think of it a focused Chaos, not merely a group of random has-beens


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And lastly... Chaos already won! The heresy was their victory, and the continued strife between loyalist and chaos are testament to their success.

AbsoluteBlue wrote:I am convinced that the CSM Codex was really a Black Legion codex, with a splash of others... to form "Renegade" warbands, but nothing comprehensive enough to really do other "Chapters" without just painting and converting. I don't think this suggests they ever plan to make Chaos Chapter codices. Even the fluff in the book is geared around Black Legion with a splash of Kharn.

The format of that book was heavily influenced by a minimalist design philosophy which GW has long-since abandoned.

Kungfuhustler wrote:I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

Bezerkers in a rhino? Huh?
1ksons, period? Huh?
One chaos land raider? Huh?

This isn't even hard enough to fluff my pillow.

sourclams wrote:I was willing to run Lash DP/Rhino CSM/Oblits/Termicide in 'Ard Boyz last year, and even though I did quite well with them, I'd be very hesitant to run them again this year.

-New IG simply present too much firepower. My 2500 IG 'Ard Boyz has, in addition to double mystics and the usual 12+ vehicles, more than 80 special and heavy weapons. Not shots, actual weapons. A flamer is 1. A T/L Lascannon is 1. An autocannon is 1. 80 of them. Majority at S6 or higher. My 'Ard Boyz CSM army totaled about 76 models.

Lash is largely irrelevant because there's nothing worth lashing, and Chaos simply can't bring enough firepower to bear quickly enough. If you sit on the table, you can destroy, potentially, three vehicles on turn 1 with 3 Heavy slots shooting. If you get first turn. If the IG player gets first turn, you can either try Reserves tricks, which he can counter with mystics to a large extent, or a lot of your gak is going to die.

-Same thing with Space Wolves, and some well-built marine lists. Space Wolves especially will not only out-shoot you with cost effective AC Dreads, Long Fangs, and massed Razorbacks, but can also outfight you. TCav will put the hurt on any unit save for maybe Kharn or Abaddon, and are so fast that they can stay out of arms reach. Wolf Lords will generally outfight other Chaos HQs, save for maybe Abaddon again, but once more the speed issue can come into play.

I do agree that the old Lash Chaos build is fully capable of handing a mediore list or player their ass on a cracker, but the same can be said for the newer generation of IG/SW/mech Marines, and in the competitive matchups, I'd much rather have the newer codices.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the leaf blower list...

He has the right of it. CSM is too expensive and doe not have enough fire power even in its standard list. I mean, I still win time to time, but when we talk competitively, no, I don't with my CSM. Chalk the up to me being a bad player, or recognize that the players in your area as being sucky. Now if CSM had better mobility, the reduction of fire power wouldnt be to great of a problem. Just look at raptors and bikes. raptors are 2-3 points too expensive and bikes are 4-5 points too expensive.

That's why I am using the Blood Angels codex now. the list is just too outdated, lol.


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imweasel wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

Bezerkers in a rhino? Huh?
1ksons, period? Huh?
One chaos land raider? Huh?

This isn't even hard enough to fluff my pillow.

Has potential, but the amount of transport would alone give the game away.

The list is too outdated!? people still play Tau, Eldar, Necrons, DE, Dark Angels, Witchhunters, Daemonhunters... I believe they all far outrank your concept of 'outdated' with the CSM codex, but they still turn up at games. I guess we should all just switch over to playing Space Wolves anyway if we want to be competative, right?

imweasel wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

Bezerkers in a rhino? Huh?
1ksons, period? Huh?
One chaos land raider? Huh?

This isn't even hard enough to fluff my pillow.

Yeah, Berserkers in a Rhino. Yeah, one Chaos Land Raider.

Do you even play in tournaments?

He does play in tournaments. He also tanks his opponents sportsmanship score and refuses to play if they bring a list he doesn't like.

@Guitardian: outdated doesn't simply mean old, it means that the codex' design philosophy does not keep up with the game as it is currently played. The Dark Angels codex is similar, but (as chaos) it was designed to lower the "power curve" with slightly too expensive units and lack of in-built synergy, it is outdated as well. "Modern" codices have, in general, cheaper basic units and better synergy built into the rules of the models and units themselves. Eldar, for example, has good synergy, although their unit prices are generally a bit too high, however they are still more "current" than the CSM codex, despite being an older book.

willydstyle wrote:He does play in tournaments. He also tanks his opponents sportsmanship score and refuses to play if they bring a list he doesn't like.

Ah. Well that explains a lot.

Has anyone played their Chaos against the new Blood Angels yet? I know that it would be purely anecdotal but I'd still be interested to know how they're doing in the context of this discussion.

It would seem to me that [Lash + Lots of Jump Infantry= BA Fail]

White dwarf did, BA rapped.

Yeah, I saw that. I don't think WD would have the new army that they are pushing get disrespected by last years' leftovers though, do you?

I'm talking about actual players outside of the 'Eavy Metal studio.

As much as I don't think Chaos are truly competitive any more... a single game doesn't prove much, even when it supports my prejudices

Monster Rain wrote:

Has anyone played their Chaos against the new Blood Angels yet? I know that it would be purely anecdotal but I'd still be interested to know how they're doing in the context of this discussion.

It would seem to me that [Lash + Lots of Jump Infantry= BA Fail]

Im playing next weekend vs the New Blood Angels, however i dont use lash. And i will be using Chaos Marines and Chaos Daemons. We will prolly be playing several games and i am betting they will all be very close.

Why does the BA list have to be Assault Marine jet pack heavy?

They can perfectly go mech, crazy mech.
They also have libbies...

Or they could deepstrike in and take stuff out pretty reliably with the weapon delivery and actual DSing distances...

BA are very flexible in what they bring, it's not just one type of list any more.

Sanctjud wrote:Why does the BA list have to be Assault Marine jet pack heavy?

They can perfectly go mech, crazy mech.
They also have libbies...

Or they could deepstrike in and take stuff out pretty reliably with the weapon delivery and actual DSing distances...

BA are very flexible in what they bring, it's not just one type of list any more.

I personally think Blood Angels have become the most flexible book by far, things i have seen/thought of Landraider Spam, Rhino Rush, Razorback spam, Jump Assaults, Asteroth lists, Dreadnought Lists, Stormraven Assaults, and so much much more. In my opinion GW really did some good work this time.

Sanctjud wrote:Why does the BA list have to be Assault Marine jet pack heavy?

BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THEY PLAYED IN THE LAST CODEX!!1!1!!

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:Why does the BA list have to be Assault Marine jet pack heavy?

BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THEY PLAYED IN THE LAST CODEX!!1!1!!

Clearly no one has looked at the new model range... Jump Packs all over the place.

Ah well.

Actually I played v the new BA's a few days ago... it was by no means a competitive game so take this with a grain of salt but I came extremely close to winning. We where playing a take and hold, 5 objectives, spearhead deployment (opposite corners, sorry if this isnt the right name). I was playing a mono khorne army as a joke (to prove berzerkers are the true masters of assault lul) and it was 1500 points. My mate had chosen to go mehc, with a razorback and 3 rhinos and a monstrous unit of death company... oh and mephiston.

The lists

Me
Kharn
3x 8 berzerkers, champ with pfist, rhino
2 Dreads, 2 dccws
3 Oblits
LR with 4 khorne terms, pairs of lightnin claws and a chaos lord with a bloodfeeder and term armor

Him
Mephiston
9 Death Company with power weapons, Reclusiarch, rhino
10 man assault squad, 2 plasma pistols
10 man tac squad, plasma gun, rhino
5 devs, razorback (can't remember what they had)
1 DC dread, 2 dccws

Basically everything I expected to happen did... the death company+ chaplain ate Kharn and a unit of berzerkers and mephiston pwned a dread... but not before he knocked him down to 1 wound! The oblits nuked the dread turn 1, and the lord and terms killed the devs beofre being overun by the assault squad (in no small part due to TERRIBLE bloodfeeder rolls) and in the end I maid a terrible judegement call and attempted the 1 wound mephiston with a some berzerkers... they didn't make it and because of that his assault squad swooped in on the following turn and claimed the ob. ftw.

So my personal thoughts on BA: very cool and definetly very competitive (i wanna try that 11 dreadnought army out) but not ultimate cheese.

Monster Rain wrote:Yeah, I saw that. I don't think WD would have the new army that they are pushing get disrespected by last years' leftovers though, do you?

I guess that's true. All WD games seemed a little set up to me, with one side always takinf suboptimal lists, unfavorable objective positioning, and "bad luck".

Some of the old WD from the mid-nineties were actually really good, that was my favorite part of the magazine back in those days. (the days when everyone picked on Gav because he lost almost all the time). They actually had the NEWEST ARMY LOSE sometimes (gasp).

Guitardian wrote:Some of the old WD from the mid-nineties were actually really good, that was my favorite part of the magazine back in those days. (the days when everyone picked on Gav because he lost almost all the time). They actually had the NEWEST ARMY LOSE sometimes (gasp).

I didn't start playing until 2004, so I couldn't really comment on that.

Since I started picking up the occasional WD though, I notice serious discrepancies between the lists I would make and the lists taken by the whipping boy in a WD batrep.

Monster Rain wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

Bezerkers in a rhino? Huh?
1ksons, period? Huh?
One chaos land raider? Huh?

This isn't even hard enough to fluff my pillow.

Yeah, Berserkers in a Rhino. Yeah, one Chaos Land Raider.

Do you even play in tournaments?

This is a 'ard boyz list, in case you didn't notice. Like I said, not even 'ard enough to fluff my pillow.

imweasel wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

imweasel wrote:

Kungfuhustler wrote:I think CSM could do will in Ard' boyz, an example list

Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons

Around 2500 points, pretty dang ard'

Bezerkers in a rhino? Huh?
1ksons, period? Huh?
One chaos land raider? Huh?

This isn't even hard enough to fluff my pillow.

Yeah, Berserkers in a Rhino. Yeah, one Chaos Land Raider.

Do you even play in tournaments?

This is a 'ard boyz list, in case you didn't notice. Like I said, not even 'ard enough to fluff my pillow.

Right, I know what you said. My point was that what you said had no basis in 'Ard Boyz reality. Also, did I miss something or is 'Ard Boyz not a tournament all of a sudden?

His point is that this is a terrible list, 'Ard Boyz or no. You're going to get eaten alive if you show up at 'Ard Boyz with a battlebox army, no matter what the codex is.

It might be a terrible list; that's debatable.

Just not for the reasons that he described.

It's not even debatable. Nobody is going to take a White Dwarf list to 'Ard Boyz.

And since the reasons he gave were based around the selections being terrible within the structure of the list, I don't see how his reasoning was flawed, either.

It is, indeed, a terrible list.

sourclams wrote:His point is that this is a terrible list, 'Ard Boyz or no. You're going to get eaten alive if you show up at 'Ard Boyz with a battlebox army, no matter what the codex is.

While the list was not the best around, imweasel questioned the wrong parts of the list. One landraider is used in many chaos lists and quite frequently bezerkers in a rhino are used. This makes me believe he has never played with CSM or doesnt know what he is talking about as Monster Rain insinuated.

Such a belief is unwarranted, or at least less warranted than the belief that imweasel's understanding of 40k is such that he values Land Raiders and Rhino-mounted Berzerkers differently than you.

Seriously, when are people going to pull a cork out and realize that other people may have different perspectives and opinions on what is good and what isn't?

mrwittwer wrote:

sourclams wrote:His point is that this is a terrible list, 'Ard Boyz or no. You're going to get eaten alive if you show up at 'Ard Boyz with a battlebox army, no matter what the codex is.

While the list was not the best around, imweasel questioned the wrong parts of the list. One landraider is used in many chaos lists and quite frequently bezerkers in a rhino are used. This makes me believe he has never played with CSM or doesnt know what he is talking about as Monster Rain insinuated.

Okay, someone else sees my point. I'm not crazy.

Nurglitch wrote:Such a belief is unwarranted, or at least less warranted than the belief that imweasel's understanding of 40k is such that he values Land Raiders and Rhino-mounted Berzerkers differently than you.

Seriously, when are people going to pull a cork out and realize that other people may have different perspectives and opinions on what is good and what isn't?

Different perspectives don't mean that everyone is right, Nurglitch. Attempting to say that Berserkers in a Rhino is totally ineffective is plainly incorrect.

Monster Rain wrote:

Different perspectives don't mean that everyone is right, Nurglitch. Attempting to say that Berserkers in a Rhino is totally ineffective is plainly incorrect.

Second

I read it completely differently.

Suffice to say, the list is still awful. If picking through garbage to find slightly less rancid garbage gives you moral satisfaction, then have at it.

Monster Rain:

I'm pretty sure that imweasel didn't attempt to say that Berzerkers in a Rhino are totally ineffective.

Likewise I'm pretty sure I didn't say that different perspectives mean everyone is right. Where did you get this from?

The List is not awful. It wins all the time! It's one of the most popular, most competitive, lists currently in play. We've been providing tourney after tourney of evidence. The anti's are entirely theory. Let's see one national level tourney CSM did worse than the field at large in. Just one.

40kenthusiast wrote:The List is not awful. It wins all the time! It's one of the most popular, most competitive, lists currently in play. We've been providing tourney after tourney of evidence. The anti's are entirely theory. Let's see one national level tourney CSM did worse than the field at large in. Just one.

The "Awful List" is this:
Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons
~2500

Which people on both sides of the "Are CSM Good?" debate can agree on.

sourclams wrote:I read it completely differently.

Suffice to say, the list is still awful. If picking through garbage to find slightly less rancid garbage gives you moral satisfaction, then have at it.

Thank you, I appreciate that. It gives me joy beyond description. Note that I didn't disagree with the idea of fielding Ksons. Though given how universally panned they are on forums leads me to believe that they're probably not as bad as people repeat how bad they heard someone else say that they are.

Nurglitch wrote:Monster Rain:

I'm pretty sure that imweasel didn't attempt to say that Berzerkers in a Rhino are totally ineffective.

Likewise I'm pretty sure I didn't say that different perspectives mean everyone is right. Where did you get this from?

I'm pretty sure that saying "Berserkers in a Rhino?" in an incredulous fashion wasn't a compliment to the idea.

I pretty much got it from the "Get the Cork Out" comment you posted in reference to what is good and what isn't.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

The "Awful List" is this:
Abbadon & a squad khorne LC termies LR
Slaaneesh sorc w/ lash in a rhino w/ berzerkers
2 3 man combi-melta termicide teams
2 3man DS oblits
squad O' plague marines in rhino
1ksons in rhino
2 squads of 10 daemons
~2500

Which people on both sides of the "Are CSM Good?" debate can agree on.

The list is not very good. But not because there's a Land Raider and a bone bus full of Berserkers.

Monster Rain:

Then you were mistaken on both counts.

Being unimpressed with Berzerkers in a Rhino is a very far cry from saying they're totally ineffective. It's the distances between saying $1k isn't that much to saying $1k isn't anything at all.

Likewise pointing out that you are unwarranted in claiming another person's opinion is invalid is hardly the claim that all opinions are right, (or equal, or even valid).

Misrepresenting other people's opinions, like you have in these cases, is not constructive.

Nurglitch wrote:Monster Rain:

Then you were mistaken on both counts.

Being unimpressed with Berzerkers in a Rhino is a very far cry from saying they're totally ineffective. It's the distances between saying $1k isn't that much to saying $1k isn't anything at all.

Likewise pointing out that you are unwarranted in claiming another person's opinion is invalid is hardly the claim that all opinions are right, (or equal, or even valid).

Misrepresenting other people's opinions, like you have in these cases, is not constructive.

Nurglitch... buddy... Can we skip the semantics here please? I think you know exactly what I'm saying.

Nothing you have said is even remotely representing any post that I have made. You said this:

Seriously, when are people going to pull a cork out and realize that other people may have different perspectives and opinions on what is good and what isn't?

Yes, people have different perspectives. Some of those perspectives are wrong and it's perfectly acceptable to point them out when they are incorrect.

Monster Rain:

I agree, some perspectives are wrong. In fact, most of the time all the represented perspectives are wrong. That said, while some statements are easily decidable (something I read recently about shooting a Lascannon at a Land Raider and a Melta Gun at a Rhino comes to mind), other ones are not.

It's pretty easy to know which ones the latter are, because the disputed question is whether the Chaos Space Marines are a second-tier army. You have to expect that people are going to disagree with you and not be talking out of their sphincters.

You have to understand the difference between people's opinions being wrong, and people's opinions merely disagreeing with your own. And you have to understand that an opinion being wrong does not make it invalid. After all, the game is replete with idiots who somehow managed to play the game on a regular basis and yet have no strategic insight of which to speak.

It's one thing to state that someone's opinion is wrong and to give reasons for agreeing with that statement, and it's quite another to state that someone's opinion is wrong, and to further hypothesize that it's invalid because they don't play the game. That's called "ad hominem" and makes you look like you can't support the argument that their opinion is wrong.

The point was, regardless of the overall effectiveness of the list, is that imweasel was blatantly implying, if not directly stating, that a single land raider is a bad choice and that Zerks in rhinos is likewise a bad decision.

Monster Rain wrote:I'm pretty sure that saying "Berserkers in a Rhino?" in an incredulous fashion wasn't a compliment to the idea.

I am not quoting nurglitch because he is pretty spot on. My comment on 'berserkers in a rhino' is not a compliment. Neither are 1ksons in a rhino a compliment.

Their are much better choices than either for CSM.

I think the termicide is fine. I think the oblits are fine.

One land raider to deliver 400pts of stuff? Really? The lack of other solid targets in this list means that every anti-tank weapon will be lighting this thing up on turn one. It's not going to be very fun or efficient to be walking that 400pts of 'stuff' across the table. Sure, you can rhino wrap it, give it some cover. But there are better things to spend your points on than a 600+pt death star unit that's not even that good.

Monster Rain wrote:The list is not very good. But not because there's a Land Raider and a bone bus full of Berserkers.

Really? So the only 'flaws' you see in this list that doesn't make it good is the 2x10 demon squads?

And you asked me if I play in tournaments?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Partof1 wrote:The point was, regardless of the overall effectiveness of the list, is that imweasel was blatantly implying, if not directly stating, that a single land raider is a bad choice and that Zerks in rhinos is likewise a bad decision.

Yep. One squad of zerks in a rhino is terrible.

Matter of fact, looking back at the list, it seems the only thing that is missing is taking a squad of noise marines so you can have everyone 'represent'.

One squad of zerks. One squad of nurgle marines. One squad of 1ksons. That doesn't make your army a swiss army knife.

I happen to like swiss army knife armies.... as long as theyer well constructed. and you wouldnt need noise marines. The god is represented by the seemingly mandatory Lash user

sourclams wrote:His point is that this is a terrible list, 'Ard Boyz or no. You're going to get eaten alive if you show up at 'Ard Boyz with a battlebox army, no matter what the codex is.

There's nothing battle box about that army, its just not great. Is it weak because doesn't spam Land Raider?

Nurglitch wrote:
It's pretty easy to know which ones the latter are, because the disputed question is whether the Chaos Space Marines are a second-tier army. You have to expect that people are going to disagree with you and not be talking out of their sphincters.

I always expect that some people will disagree on a forum. I even concede that sometimes I'm wrong. Surely you allow that some people are in fact talking out of their sphincters?

Nurglitch wrote:
You have to understand the difference between people's opinions being wrong, and people's opinions merely disagreeing with your own.

I do, and I'm trying hard not to find your tone to be overly condescending. Some people who might not be a veteran of the game might read something crazy that has been posted and take it seriously, and I feel that someone should point out when there is a varying point of view. It doesn't even have to be a matter of right and wrong, just making sure all points of view are represented.

I still maintain that Zerks in a Rhino being panned as a non-competitive choice for a tourney is not simply an opinion differing from my own, but just wrong on it's face.

Sounds like chaos... a bunch of people bickering about who said what and what is right... just my perspective, which may be wrong I grant you. The bickering about each others posts isn't exactly constructive debate, and the personal jabs aren't either. I would say make a CONSTRUCTIVE point or leave it alone...

now... following my own advice, Why don't chaos players spam what they are good at, instead of trying to be a SM army. Love your raptors, for instance, love your lash+oblit, be 'cheesy' etc. It keeps it on the cutting edge if you learn by trial and error what works best in the new 5th ed. competetive setting, and abuse your good points to no end like its going out of style (which, by the responses to this thread, it seems to be, in some people's minds). Can anyone tell me what armies are considered 'tier 1'? IG I assume, SW, nid, ork... anyone else see a temporal connection here to when the books were scribed, and according to what rules edition? what would a 'tier 3' army be, then? squats?

Perhaps its simply the fact newer books are used more often that they appear to be the only tier 1 armies. Perhaps is the fact that GW tries very hard to make the new books tier 1 so people will go buy more of their stuff. Seems like common sense to me, but this doesn't degrade the quality of older books. Dark Eldar are a good example. People still play them and win, all the time.

If you really wanna look at this you have to look beyond codex release dates and look at the players.

And there are of course the cases like daemon hunters, where the books are so broken its rather difficult to play them. However people still use them maybe not in tournaments. But this also goes to prove that people simply play the newer books more.

Point to case, there are Tier 1, 2, and 3 players not the codex's.

So how do Tyranids fit into this temporal theory of army tiers?

well unless matched up against SW they seem pretty sick overpowered/underpriced no-brainer to me. I believe mrwittwer's comment about tier 1 and tier 2 players (right above yours) is more along the lines of keeping it in perspective. Chaos players, for a long time, had a dominating list of army choices and abusive psykers... the rest of us just dealt with lash as a fact of life and figured out what to do about it. Now, as new codex and rules and FAQ are released, players have to re-adapt what used to be a no-brainer power army in order to deal with a new way of playing that no longer involves a winged lashing demon prince plus wad of oblits garaunteeing the whoop-ass any more.

Again, "waaaah... its not as easy to slaughter some other army because of my broken codex and their outdated one matchup, because now they have a broken one too... not as easy as it used to be... waah..."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
adapt my friends, adapt.

I'm amazed this thread is still going.

imweasel wrote:

In fluff and soft score tourneys, they (and any list) can do just fine, except for power lists.

In 'Ard Boyz environments, they (meaning CSM) don't have many options to be competitive.

Adepticon does pairings arbitrarily. GT's are can be dominated (and certianly influenced by) soft scores.

You're confused. The UK GT hasn't had soft scores for years (and then it was only painting / presentation) and CSM scored P1 and P2. Finding an ETC (no soft scores, never has soft scores) team without a chaos lash list is quite a task. Tournament players at the highest level rate chaos and succeed with chaos. Don't understand the counter argument. Rubbish players don't and can't?

Nah... it's just that rubbish players need something to blame for their own shortcomings. I'm sure we have all heard it before; Something along the lines of "When I win it's because I am a tactical mastermind" followed by "If you win it's because your codex is broken". There's your rubbish players for you. I personally like to put my faith in the dice gods and leave it at that

cheers guys... but I am also surprised this thread isn't locked up as DONE yet. Chaos is doing fine. end of story.

Guitardian wrote:Nah... it's just that rubbish players need something to blame for their own shortcomings. I'm sure we have all heard it before; Something along the lines of "When I win it's because I am a tactical mastermind"

Ah yes. I was particularly fond of that coming from 4th Ed Eldar players...

And when those 'tactical masterminds' loose is it because they got unlucky with the dice?

Y'know, there's two styles of 40k, and both are 'viable' tactically in my opinion.

On one extreme you have things like Eldar, DE, Tau, marine drop-pod armies or rhino rush armies, who are very 'precise' armies, often outnumbered but maneuvering superiority to make up for it. If you do everything perfectly, dice don't even need to be on your side so much, but that means you have to do everything perfectly (which never really happens, so you still need the dice gods to cut you some slack from time to time).

On the other side are things like Da Green Tide, Nidzilla, space wolves 'Loganwing' and new BA assault spam, balanced vanilla marines, balanced CSM, crons, lascannon salute IG etc... where you either have enough numbers or good enough saves (or both) to get away with just kind of stamping around the board and not caring if you get shot at. This approach doesn't have nearly the same level of prioritizing targets and minimizing return. It relies on LOTS of DICE.

When I used to play IG, I knew my lasguns sucked, but I also knew that if I roll enough of them, sooner or later that save will come up a 1. When I played SM I knew I could just sit mid board and own the place and occasionally fail a save or whatever but still not worry about random bolter guy going down just so long as the squad ML was still pumping it out.

When I hit Eldar, I realized that maneuver was the only thing that could save me from being shot to bits, and started adjusting my play style to the hit-n-run way that works for them.

SO, what play style are CSM? They have fast attack, heavy support, elite, and troops more or less on the level of the SMurfs, so what's the problem. You have power armor and ridiculous psykers. That should be a pretty good hint about how you should use them 'competatively'. They are not so much a 'maneuver' army as a 'chug my way foreward and destroy whatever doesn't get out of the way' army, like Orks or SW. Just my opinion.

Where as CSM may be a second tier army, there are some build which stupidly powerful.

Nurgle Plague Marines are tough as old boot.
Noise Marines can chuck a lot of dice at your opponent and they aren't bad in combat either at I:5.

I saw a noise marine based list tear apart an Eldar Army yesterday. It was Mechanised, but still, the amount of shots those guys have is amazing. I asked the guy what his secret was to playing Noise Marines and he said "Play them like Eldar. You have to know when to commit your force, when to retreat and how to get them to work together."

I was a bit puzzled by this as this was an MEQ army, not an Eldar army. Then it got me thinking...

What if we started playing CSM like Eldar???

Mechanised, highly elite and by getting our units to work together in unison at the correct time???

@Nurglitch - Nids are the suck ATM dude. They really missed the boat on power creep. An experienced player will do well, but an average player will do very poorly. I personally rate CSM higher than Nids.

Guitardian wrote:Y'know, there's two styles of 40k, and both are 'viable' tactically in my opinion.

On one extreme you have things like Eldar, DE, Tau, marine drop-pod armies or rhino rush armies, who are very 'precise' armies, often outnumbered but maneuvering superiority to make up for it. If you do everything perfectly, dice don't even need to be on your side so much, but that means you have to do everything perfectly (which never really happens, so you still need the dice gods to cut you some slack from time to time).

On the other side are things like Da Green Tide, Nidzilla, space wolves 'Loganwing' and new BA assault spam, balanced vanilla marines, balanced CSM, crons, lascannon salute IG etc... where you either have enough numbers or good enough saves (or both) to get away with just kind of stamping around the board and not caring if you get shot at. This approach doesn't have nearly the same level of prioritizing targets and minimizing return. It relies on LOTS of DICE.

When I used to play IG, I knew my lasguns sucked, but I also knew that if I roll enough of them, sooner or later that save will come up a 1. When I played SM I knew I could just sit mid board and own the place and occasionally fail a save or whatever but still not worry about random bolter guy going down just so long as the squad ML was still pumping it out.

When I hit Eldar, I realized that maneuver was the only thing that could save me from being shot to bits, and started adjusting my play style to the hit-n-run way that works for them.

SO, what play style are CSM? They have fast attack, heavy support, elite, and troops more or less on the level of the SMurfs, so what's the problem. You have power armor and ridiculous psykers. That should be a pretty good hint about how you should use them 'competatively'. They are not so much a 'maneuver' army as a 'chug my way foreward and destroy whatever doesn't get out of the way' army, like Orks or SW. Just my opinion.

You do realize... that foot-slogging marine lists don't work? You do realize you basically said "On one extreme, there are good lists. On the other extreme, there are bad lists (that can only win through luck)." 5th edition is DOMINATED by mech, and is dominated by mobility. Any army that lacks mobility (AKA is foot-slogging) is going to have a hard time against competitive lists.

Thats why CSM have to Mech up.

No matter which incarnation they come in.

I'm one of those players that don't agree with the CSM are no good crowd. They are a very powerful army that need to be used with a bit of finesse right now.

I seriously think an Eldar style, Hit and Run style of play will suit them. They are definate ly not an attrition style force like other MEQ.

I'd say that they're moreso a high-risk, high-reward army, like a less squishy version of the Ork army.

Nurglitch wrote:I'd say that they're moreso a high-risk, high-reward army, like a less squishy version of the Ork army.

Chaos???

Yeah, I can agree to that.

It's just an MEQ army that plays differently to all other MEQ.

Sure you could make it into an Loyalist MEQ army with the dex, but what is the point when you have Plague Marines and Noise Marines???

Nurglitch wrote:I'd say that they're moreso a high-risk, high-reward army, like a less squishy version of the Ork army.

QFT. Thats a very accurate description of how i feel playing CSM.

I've just read through this massive thread and from what I can gather most people are complaining about CSM only having one good build - Lash/PM/OBL.

I totally disagree with this.

In fact, I'm betting that with a bit of effort anyone could make a list that could bring CSM back to the front of the pecking order.

So the top armies atm are SW and IG mech, possibly BA and I know Mechdar are very powerful too. We could also throw in Vulkan or Pedro lists too as there are an abundance of these at tournies.

Let's look at CSM's strengths:

Plague Marines are an obvious choice. They can hold their own and are one of the best objective holders in the game.

Noise Marines are good at all ranges. YES... ALL!!! The name of the game, other than mechanised, is Cover. Cover saves are what troops usually take when not in a transport. How do CSM get around this??? MASS SATURATION OF FIREPOWER!!! Which Noise Marines do better at, than any other troops unit in the game - fact!!!

Basic CSM. Wah wah wah, Grey Hunters are overpowered wah wah wah. NEWSFLASH - Aside from Counter Attack, we get similar options and only take one foc slot (the optimum GH squad takes two - one for the GH, one for the WG). And instead of having Counter Attack, we get the option, at army construction, to give our guys one of the following:

+1 A.
+1 T.
+1 I.
A 5+ INV save.

If I had the choice between a CSM squad and GH squad, I know which one I would take. Oh did I mention that we can have TWENTY guys in a squad???

Chaos Lords.
What happened to people taking an old fashioned approach to character selection??? Chaos Lords are still good choices. They may not have the options that the SW Lord, but SW Lords have to pay through the nose for what they get. We get Daemon Weapons, which IMO, are really overpowered.

The Khorne one is a bit of a suicide option, but how many other IC can chug out 8-16 Power weapon attacks???

The Nurgle one butchers single wound, IC and MC without discrimination.

The Tzeentch one is ranged.

The Slaanesh one can kill anything it wounds unless it has EW.

Oh but if you roll a one, Wah Wah Wah!!! Quit moaning, it's a 1 in 6 chance and you get an INV save against it.

Personally, I'd never take the Khorne one, but all the others are freekin awesome.

Alleged Weaknesses:

No anti psyker help??? So what!!! Concentrate on our strengths, this is a minor problem.

Lack of unit compatibility??? I don't believe so. CSM have to operate like Mechdar nowadays. Know your army and learn when to commit. Army building skills are a factor here too. If OBL don't cut it anymore use summit else - Laspreds are pretty good at opening transports up and are quite tough too. So are Vindicators.

Think of it this way:

Noise Marines in Rhino are our DA in Serpents.
Vindicators or Laspreds are our Prisms.
DP are our Avatars and some argue are actually better.
OBL, while many won't see the similarities, are a lot like Fire Dragons. They take care of what they need to and then usually die a heroes death.
Plague Marines are our Wraithguard, but are better in every single way.

As a veteran CSM player (since 2nd Ed), the best advice I can give to anyone is "Think Eldar".

@Radiohazard:

Plagues: agreed.
Noise Marines: Yes, bucket o’ dice is nice, but the problem is that they are expensive for what you get and are essentially a glass cannon…and have to be un-meched to contribute maximum output.
Basic CSM: having the option for a 20 man squad is moot.
As for the icon system, feth that I rather have Grey Hunters.

Chaos Lords: DW are not overpowered…your definition must be very loose.
Bloodfeeder: whoop-di-do…still only str 4 and a high likelihood of doing nothing…
Plaguebringer: actually decent, but still on the pricey side, it’s essentially 60 points.
Shooty DW: flexible, but I have my doubts as to how useful it is on a constant basis.
Blissgiver: With the new Tyranids it gets a bit more milage, but in most cases it’s quite useless (as an upgrade over the normal DW).
Normal DW: the +1 Str is decent, but not for the points used to get it.

It’s not just a 1/6 to get a wound to take a save. You lose ALL combat attacks you would have had without it…that’s 3 basic attacks you have lost, including any charge bonus.
Not only are you not contributing to the fight you have the possibility of helping the opponent’s combat resolution scores.

No-Anti Psycher

It’s not a minor problem with a giant shift to more clutch powers…. Giving enemies free reign over good damage dealing or utility spells (Tyranid FNP, Fortune, Doom, JoTWW, Lash(lol), Living Lightning, Str 10 uber sword, Mephy in general, Double Gifting Spam, blocking a MEQ BBQ from Wind of Chaos, etc. etc. etc.)
I agree, concentrate on strengths, but I think it is unwise to call it a minor problem… it’s a big issue that you have to take into consideration and not just blow it off.

Lack of unit compatibility???

It’s not about knowing when to commit. The CSM don’t have that luxury because the army doesn’t move as fast as the Eldar and don’t have the same kind of trap laying. They need to engage early as their model count is most likely lower and need to play defensively at the same time as they are a combat army that relies on non-combat ramped transports.

Noise Marines in Rhino are our DA in Serpents.

I understand that they are suppost to fill a similar role, but the operational limits of the Rhino and Serpents are so different I think it’s laughable.

Vindicators or Laspreds are our Prisms.

No. Prisms are there to do anti-horde control…Neither Vindis or Laspreds view that role as primary or secondary.
The single Focused shot is too far different to the 3 you get from laspreds or the better damage you could get from the vindi.

DP are our Avatars and some argue are actually better.

DP’s are ‘better’ because they can fly, but offer no force multipliers…

OBL, while many won't see the similarities, are a lot like Fire Dragons. They take care of what they need to and then usually die a heroes death.

…no.

Plague Marines are our Wraithguard, but are better in every single way.

I’m gonna say “no” here as well due to the oversimplication.

I respect your opinions dude, but let's look at your post:

First off, 1/6 is a risk I'd be willing to take. The problems you wrote are just risks. You have to put in to get out. Totally agree with you on Plaguebringer, but it isn't pricey for what it does. Blissgiver is a moot point as it is still only STR 4. I have a Tzeentch based CSM army and their DW is an awesome bit of kit - tried and tested.

I agree on the Noise Marines, but they are good for their points. I know a veteran CSM player like myself, who plays Noise Marines nearly exclusively and he uses them exactly like DA. The problem he has is that the Rhino hasn't got a weapon set up of defense like a Serpent, but then again it is nearly 100 pts cheaper.

How can you say that the Vindicator's primary or secondary role isn't to clear Hordes??? It's a Pie Template at STR 10!!!

In regards to the FD OBL comparison, it maybe the way I play FD that forms my opinion here. My FD destroy a tank (usually a LR) and then die the next turn. Same thing happens to my OBL. End of the day it's pts earned back.

With the exception of their weapons, PMs have a similar role to Wraithguard. Although only one unit of WG can hold an obj, PMs do a similar thing, but only better.

radiohazard wrote:
How can you say that the Vindicator's primary or secondary role isn't to clear Hordes??? It's a Pie Template at STR 10!!!

You could probably make the case for anti-horde duty as a secondary role, but a Vindicator is certainly not what I'd consider 'good' at anti horde--and I play three in my BA list, so I don't hate the Vindicator, it simply needs a list that it works well in (mass AV13, mass vehicles to cover side shots, extra speed to compensate for short range). The CSM Vindie almost never has a shot on its first turn due to short range/not Fast and it will almost always be the only vehicle[s] above AV11 on the table, meaning your opponent has real easy target selection.

Str 10/AP2 is largely wasted on hordes as well. Str5-6 Ap5 that ignores cover at a longer range will likely kill far more models.

In regards to the FD OBL comparison, it maybe the way I play FD that forms my opinion here. My FD destroy a tank (usually a LR) and then die the next turn. Same thing happens to my OBL. End of the day it's pts earned back.

With the exception of their weapons, PMs have a similar role to Wraithguard. Although only one unit of WG can hold an obj, PMs do a similar thing, but only better.

I think it's humorous that within 3 posts of setting out to 'build a better CSM army', we're back to Plague Marines and Oblits.

Not that my opinion means much but I will put it out there:

The CSM dex sure seems like a top tier codex with a few lists, but it is heinously boring and unimaginative compared to recent codecies.

sourclams wrote:

I think it's humorous that within 3 posts of setting out to 'build a better CSM army', we're back to Plague Marines and Oblits.

Use what works? I dont see what the problem with this is. Because it works somebody considers it cheesy, which is ridiculous. If this is the case i consider the blood angels codex cheesy and therefore i can pass judgement that anyone who plays blood angels is just a cheesy player who wants to win at all costs. I also consider all widely used units from any codex cheesy so the only way to be a "legit" player is to build an army from the units that arent good. This does commit slippery slope fallacy but the point remains. Just because a unit is good or widely used doesnt make it cheesy.

I think it's humorous that within 3 posts of setting out to 'build a better CSM army', we're back to Plague Marines and Oblits.

I meant in regards to the usual Lash/PM/OBL lists.

PMs are the best troops choice in the CSM dex and you would be a fool not to use them in a competitive context.

OBL, I feel are overrated. They may bring utility, but the options they bring are not that great for the points you pay. Most Lash lists use upto 6 OBL. If I were to use them, I would only use one unit of 2 and use them as a suicide squad onto a key enemy unit - LR variants come to mind here.

Don't get me started on Lash. The Lash list does not work in the current meta. It seems that the only people that are still using it are the ones that rely on it to win games. Its a nice effect, but with all the anti-psyker flying about, it's not a good option to include and the points spent on another unit would go further.

Just my two cents.

Lash is still good. A lot of you are getting hung up on this "5th is mech, lash has no effect on vehicles, lash is bad" mentality. I would have to beg to differ.

As a old schook 40k player and long-time Chaos fan, I worry very little about mechanized units. In high points games I have 3 squads of 3 highly effective can-openers, I have 2 mc's for emergency enemy extraction, and I have powerfists to use in a pinch.

My plague squads have 2 x melta and they dare you to move your vehicle within 11.9" of them. Any list, or army-specific tactic MUST evolve with the release of new codices.

My lash list is far less in-your-face now, and since the release of the 'nids has undergone a few major revisions to give me the ability to win witout using lash at all on a consistant basis. BA did nothing to me, as my revisions for SW work fine with BA as well.

Anyone can build a list, and anyone can build an anti-that list list. It is all avout the evolution of the list as it is tweaked to answer shorcomings that new codices reveal.

I am 33-4-2 with my 2500 lash list, and it is working very well against nids and sw/ba right now. Eldar are giving me some headaches, but I am betting on not seeing them at all in round 1.

you would be a fool not to use them in a competitive context.

As much as I love plague marines, I don't agree with this statement.
The cost effective choice are the Joe CSMs...
Between the two, it depends on local meta which one pulls ahead as the 'back bone' of most competitive lists.

PM's are tougher but lower model count as suffer to mass special weapon metas.
CSM are less tougher, but more models, but suffer to the mass small arms metas.

___________________________

Fire Dragons get out and die and make up their points.
Oblits do not fall into that category.
I don't know what you are doing, but my oblits are perfectly able to last the whole game while taking fire and wrecking stuff other than vehicles.

In addition, you get 5 dragons for the price of one oblit....Dragons are cost effective in the suicide role, Oblits are not... hell it's an elite choice vs. a hvy choice...the hvy choices are so much more important to chaos thant he elites, while Eldar can do MSU rather well and don't care too much about elite choices.

Lash is only 25 points total...and like I said, I've seen events where Lash lists are still around.
Did you not read my post?
Simple logic: whether or not you have lash, you will be focusing the resources of your army to eject passengers...so the 'go mech' line isn't as stong as you'd think it to be. In addition, if one is not going for the 205 DP or the T6 DP, the lash prince or sorc is so painfully cheap, at 1850+ the CSM can afford the price tag for something that is so devestating.

The number of times it can be used is lessoneed true, but it doesn't change the role and the utility it brings.

I mean... people still use Power Fists after the price increase and the attack nerf... people still use it because the role has not changed and the utility it brings.

As for the vindi's role: it is anti-heavy infantry. Else, what Sourclams has said.

My 7 Cents...(I blame inflation )

I don't know what you're smoking but elites are the crucial part of a good Eldar army. Only 3 slots, and they are our most effective specialty infantry. To put it in perspective, you get 5 dragons for the price of 1 Oblit, and they are suicide mission guys... but you also have to buy their delivery system. Eldar don't have the option to take a transport for less than 100 points. Sorry no rhinos just really expensive hover tanks. So it's a difficult comparison to make.

What other elites are used besides Fire Dragons?
Harles, Shees, Scorps, WG don't pull their weight.
My meaning was that there is little competition for the Elite choices.

The Transport is more exensive, but you get:
Better Gun, Better Movement, Better Durability, Better Occupancy...it makes sense it costs more.

They offer target/armor saturatio, can play the reserves game, etc.

It's a much stronger platform for the Dragons.
Yes, they are two different things.

Guitardian wrote:I don't know what you're smoking but elites are the crucial part of a good Eldar army. Only 3 slots, and they are our most effective specialty infantry. To put it in perspective, you get 5 dragons for the price of 1 Oblit, and they are suicide mission guys... but you also have to buy their delivery system. Eldar don't have the option to take a transport for less than 100 points. Sorry no rhinos just really expensive hover tanks. So it's a difficult comparison to make.

Wave Serpents are crazy good. Idk why you are complaining. As long as you point them forwards they are hard to kill. And if you really wanna make sure they live holofields make them near invincible.

Wave Serpents can't take holofields. They die just as easily as any other AV12 vehicle to krack missiles.

The "hard to kill" wave serpent is a myth.

mrwittwer wrote:

Guitardian wrote:I don't know what you're smoking but elites are the crucial part of a good Eldar army. Only 3 slots, and they are our most effective specialty infantry. To put it in perspective, you get 5 dragons for the price of 1 Oblit, and they are suicide mission guys... but you also have to buy their delivery system. Eldar don't have the option to take a transport for less than 100 points. Sorry no rhinos just really expensive hover tanks. So it's a difficult comparison to make.

Wave Serpents are crazy good. Idk why you are complaining. As long as you point them forwards they are hard to kill. And if you really wanna make sure they live holofields make them near invincible.

Serpents can't have Holo-Fields.

I wouldn't say they are crazy good, but they work well enough for Dragon Delivery and work well in the Mechdar list.
Though a tad on the pricey side even when minimally equipped.

Though the Energy Field helps against mass Melta, it is true, it's still 'just' AV 12. Which is a bit better than AV 11 at face value IMO.

willydstyle wrote:Wave Serpents can't take holofields. They die just as easily as any other AV12 vehicle to krack missiles.

The "hard to kill" wave serpent is a myth.

My mistake, it seems i will have to read over my opponents codex's more thoroughly as i have played against an opponent who took holofields on his wave serpent.

Oh I'm not complaining about the WS at all, any more than a SM/CSM/SW/BA/DA etc player would complain about a land raider. Points-wise you get what you pay for. It is a good tank. BUT... if the only reason for it is to drop off some suicide dragons, it would be nice to have a cheaper alternative. aka rhino/drop pod. We don't get that option for the 35 point drop off suicide squad. YES fire dragons are almost always a good choice for elites, but so are banshees when 2/3 of your FLGS are using some kind of MEQ, so are harlies as a counter-charge threat versus damn near anything, so are scorps for 'nid killin and ork killin. Fire dragons almost always pop something and get thrashed in the following turn and there's nothing to be done about it. They die easy. The elites are the surgical scalpel of the Eldar, precise tool for precise job mentality. Only 3 slots means that while you technically could put 3 full squads of dragons in 3 WS and melt an awful lot of stuff, that means no counter-charge support, no cc ability whatsoever, no 'versus MEQ' kind of power weapon specialists, and just die a turn later.

Shees: raped by 5th ed combat rules.
Harlies: same, plus lots of fast moving flamy get in your face dakka units.
Scorps: lose point for point to orc boyz.

Dragons to their job better because the rules they are involved with got better.

For combat you always have your council...which doesn't take an Elite Slot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic:
CSM do not play like Eldar, but your mind set should be like Eldar, even though you don't have the same tools...expand more on this please?

I find these arguments that chaos should "play like Eldar" to be very non-specific, and thus non-helpful.

Guess what *any* army is improved if you use synergy and maneuver to your advantage.

I agree with some points. I am going to get some 1k sons soon and see how they do, obviously with a rhino. those AP3 bolters are a nice thing to have

Sanctjud wrote:Back on topic:
CSM do not play like Eldar, but your mind set should be like Eldar, even though you don't have the same tools...expand more on this please?

I apologise for being a bit vague in the descriptions of my musings.

I indeed meant that you have to have an Eldar mind set.

You simply cannot play CSM as a generic MEQ army unless you take no Chaos Specific stuff (Defiler, Possessed, OBL etc), it just doesn't work that way.

The CSM have unique units that do specific things, just like Eldar.

PMs are your tough units, KB are your close combat, NM have Dakka and 1K Sons are a bit of a mix between NM/PM.

Each of these units has a distinct role just like the Eldar Aspects.

In regards to my views on CSM should play like ELdar it was in relation to their lack of numbers and their general elite unit status.

@The Night Stalker:
I hope to Grandfather Nurgle you get a good deal on the Dust Buckets because...well... I hope you don't get let down too hard. I've seen people quit 40K after reading up the Dust Bucket entry in the light of 5th ed.

@radiohazard:
I see it as, the majority of the troops are forgiving...which is the main difference between CSM and Eldar if we accept that both are run similarly.

PM's are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.
CSM are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.
NM are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.

It's the KB (but can take a fist for all-comers) and Dust Buckets that are most limiting, but the Dust Buckets are most dumped on by the 5th Ed Rules.

Defilers are pretty flexible if a bit touched in the head with an identity crisis.
Oblits are the swiss army knives.

Possessed are pretty narrow in their application yes, but in general there doesn't seem a whole lot that's that specialized...

I can see where you are coming from with the forgiving aspect of the CSM, but they have another failing, which is their lack of numbers point for point over Eldar.

My DA unit + Serpent is 292 points. For an equally equipped unit that has a "similar role" (NM in Rhino), the unit is over 345 points.

To fit it all the different units you need to be successful, you need to take a squad number cut, just to be able to field more effective units.

Again, my two cents.

In my humble opinion, the Chaos marines still compete quite well in the hands of a good general. They have a lot to give a general whom can squeeze ever bit of potential out of the force. That being said Chaos could do with a look at the points value, the dreadnought, and lets be honest the entire fast attack section needs an overhaul, or at least a few additional units past the bike and the raptors.

doubled wrote:In my humble opinion, the Chaos marines still compete quite well in the hands of a good general. They have a lot to give a general whom can squeeze ever bit of potential out of the force. That being said Chaos could do with a look at the points value, the dreadnought, and lets be honest the entire fast attack section needs an overhaul, or at least a few additional units past the bike and the raptors.

LOL!!!

If I made a list of what I would want in the next CSM codex it would take up the entire space of this gargantuan thread.

So much good stuff was taken out of the 2nd ed and late 3rd ed codexes.

Let me guess.

10 DA, Exarch, 2 Catapult, Bladestorm.
Serpent, Spirit Stones, TLBL...
292

I can see...

10 NM, 10 SB.
Rhino.
285

Pretty comparable.

The standard CSM squad with fist/IoCG/2melta/rhino is just 255.

The Night Stalker wrote:I agree with some points. I am going to get some 1k sons soon and see how they do, obviously with a rhino. those AP3 bolters are a nice thing to have

Don't do it, man. Proxy some first, you'll quickly realize why they're so under used.

Mad Rabbit wrote:

The Night Stalker wrote:I agree with some points. I am going to get some 1k sons soon and see how they do, obviously with a rhino. those AP3 bolters are a nice thing to have

Don't do it, man. Proxy some first, you'll quickly realize why they're so underpowered used.

There, fixed it.

My buddy played CSM for years and would grip every game when I would shake-n-bake his rino full of Khorne flakes. What do you expect me to do? Your running a straight Khorne army with two squads of vanilla CSM on the table, CL on a jug, two tard-o dreds, and a two rinos. Whatever could be in those rinos? Could it be Mormons?... no? The judges from American ideal? …wrong again? Well surely no one would fill a fast moving troop transport with a group of CC specialist only to ram them down the throat of my IG!......Right?

Sanctjud wrote:@The Night Stalker:
I hope to Grandfather Nurgle you get a good deal on the Dust Buckets because...well... I hope you don't get let down too hard. I've seen people quit 40K after reading up the Dust Bucket entry in the light of 5th ed.

@radiohazard:
I see it as, the majority of the troops are forgiving...which is the main difference between CSM and Eldar if we accept that both are run similarly.

PM's are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.
CSM are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.
NM are generalists, access to special weapons and Fist.

It's the KB (but can take a fist for all-comers) and Dust Buckets that are most limiting, but the Dust Buckets are most dumped on by the 5th Ed Rules.

Defilers are pretty flexible if a bit touched in the head with an identity crisis.
Oblits are the swiss army knives.

Possessed are pretty narrow in their application yes, but in general there doesn't seem a whole lot that's that specialized...

Oh don't worry my parents are getting them for me, I ask, they purchase....well most of the time.

Haha America

doubled wrote:In my humble opinion, the Chaos marines still compete quite well in the hands of a good general. They have a lot to give a general whom can squeeze ever bit of potential out of the force. That being said Chaos could do with a look at the points value, the dreadnought, and lets be honest the entire fast attack section needs an overhaul, or at least a few additional units past the bike and the raptors.

Most armies can compete if given scenarios that favor them, or you *really* know your stuff, your opponent doesn't know his stuff, etc.

I am mostly angry with the current codex as it feels more like Codex: Naughty Emorines instead of Chaos. Where are my robot-sexnoughts of Slannesh? My Doom Wing Fighters of Tzeentch? Sorcerer Councils, Warsmiths with Servo Arms...when I find myself contemplating the Space Wolf codex to represent an Iron Warrior army, something is terribly wrong. :/

Sanctjud wrote:Let me guess.

10 DA, Exarch, 2 Catapult, Bladestorm.
Serpent, Spirit Stones, TLBL...
292

Nope...

10 DA inc Exarch with 2 Catapult, Bladestorm and Defend.
Serpent, Stones, TLSC.

292.

Edit:

I'm beginning to see some sense about what you guys were saying about some of the squad choices.

10 T5 CSM are cheaper and slightly better than a PM unit of equal size just because they are exactly that - cheaper.

So basically go with what what works, but don't forgo some of the cheaper units.

Quantity is it's own Quality???

radiohazard wrote:I can see where you are coming from with the forgiving aspect of the CSM, but they have another failing, which is their lack of numbers point for point over Eldar.

My DA unit + Serpent is 292 points. For an equally equipped unit that has a "similar role" (NM in Rhino), the unit is over 345 points.

To fit it all the different units you need to be successful, you need to take a squad number cut, just to be able to field more effective units.

Again, my two cents.

ummm yeah... you also get S4 T4 3+ save for those 345 points. Definitely not comparable either.

@Radiohazard:

Icon Of Nurgle CSM are the worst possible example you could use. They are uneconomical and full of gak....and that's coming from a Nurgle player...

It's not about cheap...it's about what you get for what you pay, you get very little with IoN marines compare to Plague Marines.

Quanitity is it's own quality, true, but not when you involve the IoN in the debate.
______________________

I agree with Guitardian, Radiohazard, how did you get 345 poitns?
Just add everything up with all the upgrades? That is not being (lets say) "fair" to the CSM side and it just seems like you were making things up. I'm sure you aren't, but it doesn't sound like a very sound comparison.

Sanctjud wrote:@Radiohazard:

Icon Of Nurgle CSM are the worst possible example you could use. They are uneconomical and full of gak....and that's coming from a Nurgle player...

It's not about cheap...it's about what you get for what you pay, you get very little with IoN marines compare to Plague Marines.

Quanitity is it's own quality, true, but not when you involve the IoN in the debate.
______________________

I agree with Guitardian, Radiohazard, how did you get 345 poitns?
Just add everything up with all the upgrades? That is not being (lets say) "fair" to the CSM side and it just seems like you were making things up. I'm sure you aren't, but it doesn't sound like a very sound comparison.

First of all the icon was just an example, not a true tested method.

Secondly...

10 Noise Marines inc. Noise Champion and Rhino = 360.
1 Blastmaster, Power Weapon, Doom Siren, 8 Sonic Blasters.

So I was off by 15 points.

That is why we have to have smaller squad sizes as the same squad size is just extortionately expensive.

So yea...loading up on all the weapons is not something I consider a serious unit to measure up to the Dire Avengers.

Avengers shoot essentially shorter ranged stormbolters...plain and simple.
Why muddy things up and throw in doomsiren/blastmaster/power weapon.

10 DA? Ok, 10 Sonic Blaster mariens, cool, that comparison makes most sense.

Blastmasters are known far and wide for being priced worse than eating gak.
Siren/pw is nice, but that's not a capacity a Sonic Blaster squad needs.

The closer compaison would be storm guardians with triple template vs. the Doomsiren.

152 for the DA, 250 for the NM, that was much more simple. The kicker is they even out when rides are concerned.

So you would take 10 NM with Sonic Blasters and stick them in a rhino???

I would take the PW tho. I5 power weapons in MEQ armies are hella good.

PW are actually pretty poo on 'just' MEQ stats, esp. for a water unit tha is the SB NMs.

Ugh...this is getting cyclic.

You are the one that compared DA to NM.
I'm presenting a case that makes more sense then your unrealistic comparison...that is all.

Sanctjud is extremely correct about the Icon of Nurgle. PMs are a better buy because they are fearless, have +1 toughness AND have FNP. CMs are just +1 toughness, are NOT fearless and have access to the same war gear. PMs are resistant to anti infantry weapons such as auto cannons (thanks to FNP) but not anti armour weapons (such as plasma). Icon of Nurgle CM are vulnerable to both and will run off the table after a few good wounds and bad rolls. The Icon of Nurgle is disgusting for 50 points. It should at least make the squad fearless or offer a moral test re-roll or something to make it worth the points in my opinions.

The tactical reason to take CM over any cult troop is due to the fact that they are cheap and flexible and the Icon of Chaos Glory gives you more bang for your buck. CMs can also provide more firepower that other cult troops may not have access to such as plasma, melta, missile launchers etc (depending on which cult troops you use in comparison).

The only use of the Icon of Nurgle in my opinion (and it is point heavy and non optimal) is to run toughness 6 bikers against opponents that don’t have high amounts of low AP/armour ignoring attack. These guys can be a distraction, damage sponge or summon/teleport support but since chaos bikers are not scoring like SM, this point is moot.

In my opinion, chaos are a Second tier army. Sure they can be fun to play and can win plenty of games however; when you compare an optimal chaos list to a similar list in other armies, they do it better. Personally all chaos needs is the addition of a few extra units, upgrades and a 5th edition point cost adjustment to make it more optimal. All it would take is for GW to release a revised rules/codex add-on PDF for Chaos to fix them but that will never happen lol.

Read carefully, however I'd still like to lodge my complaint about raptors being raped of hit and run ability... prolly the orks stole it (I haven't had the chance to read it since my 5yr hiatus return).

Oh well, my dice karma always screwed me using that rule anyway.

I just don't see how noiseys and avengers are even comparable still, despite all the debate. Let me re-iterate: 3+, S4 T4 is a hell of a boost from 4+, S3 T3 even if their weapons are comparable. That's why Noiseys cost more than avengers... approximately the same output but a lot more input to take down.

To summarize the entire thread: Abandon all hope, ye who do not play a 5th edition codex.

solkan wrote:To summarize the entire thread: Abandon all hope, ye who do not play a 5th edition codex.

QFT lol

I am adding this to my sig

It's okay, all my Eldar just counts as space wolves nowadays...

solkan wrote:To summarize the entire thread: Abandon all hope, ye who do not play a 5th edition codex.

Dark Eldar say otherwise.

@Guitardian:

The idea was that the DA and the NM fulfil similar roles with their StormBolter like weaponry. That and pretty much only that.
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As for:

solkan wrote:
To summarize the entire thread: Abandon all hope, ye who do not play a 5th edition codex.

Sanctjud wrote:@Guitardian:

The idea was that the DA and the NM fulfil similar roles with their StormBolter like weaponry. That and pretty much only that.

But you can't just throw that out there like the two traits exist in a vacuum, you know?

Everything about those two units' game mechanics is different pretty much, other than their weapon Strength and BS. The DAs are better on the offense with Bladestorm and Doom and/or Guide, but NM put out slightly less shots(if they've moved) but can take a much worse beating and are fearless. Apples and oranges.

I know, I wasn't the original person to suggest it, I was only running with the idea...

I agree Apples and Oranges.

Prestofet wrote:Whatever could be in those rhinos? Could it be Mormons?

Well played, sir. Well played.

*golf clap*